========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:41:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lea Graham Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? Comments: cc: Marcus Bales In-Reply-To: <46FFEEF3.32735.1DA1479@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about that song "I've Been to Paradise (but I've never been to me)"? I can't remember the name of the woman who recorded it, but I heard it the other day and was apalled at the ideas it proposed about a woman's "completion." ---- Marcus Bales wrote: > Rolling Stones: Under My Thumb > > > > On 30 Sep 2007 at 14:45, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > My Heart Belongs to Daddy. > > > > The Leader of the Pack. > > > > How Much Is that Doggie in the Window. > > > > Though it's probably a good idea to remember that feminism is an > > ism, > > female is a gender. > > > > But oh well. "Soldier Soldier Will You Marry Me" and the hundreds of > > songs with the same punchline. > > > > Lord Randall. > > Barbry Allen. > > > > At 11:52 AM 9/30/2007, you wrote: > > >She put a spell on me. According to the data, I'm the most > > miserable > > >man in America. > > > > > >Chris Stroffolino wrote: Tracey---thanks > > >for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, > > >and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on this > > issue, > > >but I would like to propose another interpretation to that > > message. > > >If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in > > general > > >are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is certainly > > >debatable, > > >but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also possible > > that > > >American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, > > >and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a > > divisive > > >gender issue, > > >but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes that > > >occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) > > >have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a head > > in > > >the 55-75 era. > > >Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find > > rings > > >true) that makes that claim. > > >It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was when > > >feminism (as well as integration, etc) > > >seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. > > >All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to be > > read > > >in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. > > >Curious what you and others think > > > > > >Chris > > > > > >On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > > > As I think on this one, because there have been songs that > > have > > > > crossed my > > > > path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that message!", > > I > > > > want to > > > > mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this > > > > morning. Some > > > > research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier than > > women, > > > > which is > > > > the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies or > > > > something like > > > > that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea to > > > > consider: > > > > "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The > > message I > > > > heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to their > > > > husbands.... > > > > Yuck! > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find > > the most > > > >> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set > > the > > > >> clock > > > >> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for > > Sheena > > > >> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be > > an > > > >> anthem for > > > >> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest > > > >> thus....of > > > >> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By > > Your > > > >> Man," > > > >> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a > > > >> man..." as a > > > >> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to > > > >> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or > > whatever > > > >> will be > > > >> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. > > > >> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > > > >> > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > >> ___ > > > >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free > > AOL > > > >> Mail! - > > > >> http://mail.aol.com > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Building a website is a piece of cake. > > >Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release Date: > > 9/29/2007 9:46 PM > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:41:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones -- launch day Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Tomorrow, Oct. 1, is the official launch day for my new poetry collection Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones (Hamilton Stone Editions). Huzzah! It is available now at www.amazon.com, www.barnesandnoble.com, and/or from Hamilton Stone Editions at www.hamiltonstone.org. Here's a whiff: What Your Doctor Knows Knowledge you often hate on first hearing, coming to love as it grows into you. Perfect anecdotes, in spite of all your tense accusations, while, despite the wallflowers gang-banging the geraniums, a wild kitten careens in your heart, love by second sight. The greater the yearning, the greater the grief. Impractical accident, with a difference. Hal "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." --Albert Einstein Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:43:54 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Caleb Cluff Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've Never Been To Me=20 ( Charlene ) Hey lady, you lady, cursing at your life You're a discontented mother and a regimented wife I've no doubt you dream about the things you'll never do But, I wish someone had talked to me Like I wanna talk to you..... Oh, I've been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be free I've been to paradise but I've never been to me Please lady, please lady, don't just walk away 'Cause I have this need to tell you why I'm all alone today I can see so much of me still living in your eyes Won't you share a part of a weary heart that has lived million lies.... Oh, I've been to Nice and the Isle of Greece while I've sipped champagne on a yacht I've moved like Harlow in Monte Carlo and showed 'em what I've got I've been undressed by kings and I've seen some things that a woman ain't supposed to see I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me [spoken] Hey, you know what paradise is? It's a lie, a fantasy we create about people and places as we'd like them to be But you know what truth is? It's that little baby you're holding, it's that man you fought with this morning The same one you're going to make love with tonight That's truth, that's love...... Sometimes I've been to crying for unborn children that might have made me complete But I took the sweet life, I never knew I'd be bitter from the sweet I've spent my life exploring the subtle whoring that costs too much to be free Hey lady...... I've been to paradise, (I've been to paradise)=20 But I've never been to me -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales Sent: Monday, 1 October 2007 8:46 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? Rolling Stones: Under My Thumb On 30 Sep 2007 at 14:45, Mark Weiss wrote: > My Heart Belongs to Daddy. >=20 > The Leader of the Pack. >=20 > How Much Is that Doggie in the Window. >=20 > Though it's probably a good idea to remember that feminism is an > ism,=20 > female is a gender. >=20 > But oh well. "Soldier Soldier Will You Marry Me" and the hundreds of > songs with the same punchline. >=20 > Lord Randall. > Barbry Allen. >=20 > At 11:52 AM 9/30/2007, you wrote: > >She put a spell on me. According to the data, I'm the most > miserable=20 > >man in America. > > > >Chris Stroffolino wrote: Tracey---thanks > >for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, > >and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on this > issue, > >but I would like to propose another interpretation to that > message. > >If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in > general > >are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is certainly > >debatable, > >but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also possible > that > >American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, > >and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a > divisive > >gender issue, > >but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes that > >occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) > >have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a head > in > >the 55-75 era. > >Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find > rings > >true) that makes that claim. > >It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was when > >feminism (as well as integration, etc) > >seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. > >All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to be > read > >in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. > >Curious what you and others think > > > >Chris > > > >On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > As I think on this one, because there have been songs that > have > > > crossed my > > > path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that message!", > I > > > want to > > > mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this > > > morning. Some > > > research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier than > women, > > > which is > > > the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies or > > > something like > > > that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea to > > > consider: > > > "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The > message I > > > heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to their > > > husbands.... > > > Yuck! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > > >> > > >> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find > the most > > >> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set > the > > >> clock > > >> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for > Sheena > > >> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be > an > > >> anthem for > > >> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest > > >> thus....of > > >> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By > Your > > >> Man," > > >> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a > > >> man..." as a > > >> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to > > >> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or > whatever > > >> will be > > >> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. > > >> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > > >> > ____________________________________________________________________ > _ > > >> ___ > > >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free > AOL > > >> Mail! - > > >> http://mail.aol.com > > >> > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Building a website is a piece of cake. > >Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release Date: > 9/29/2007 9:46 PM >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D The information contained in this email and any attachment is = confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended = only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of = this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this = email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please = notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does = not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. = Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's = liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:47:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable American Woman The Guess Who =20 "American woman gonna mess your mind American woman, she gonna mess your mind American woman gonna mess your mind American woman gonna mess your mind Say A, Say M, Say E, Say R, Say I, C, Say A, N, American woman gonna mess your mind American woman gonna mess your mind American woman gonna mess your mind American woman, stay away from me American woman, mama let me be Don=E2=80=99t come hangin=E2=80=99 around my door I don=E2=80=99t wanna see your face no more I got more important things to do Than spend my time growin=E2=80=99 old with you Now woman, I said stay away, American woman, listen what I say. American woman, get away from me American woman, mama let me be Don=E2=80=99t come knockin=E2=80=99 around my door Don=E2=80=99t wanna see your shadow no more Coloured lights can hypnotize Sparkle someone else=E2=80=99s eyes Now woman, I said get away American woman, listen what I say. American woman, said get away American woman, listen what I say Don=E2=80=99t come hangin=E2=80=99 around my door Don=E2=80=99t wanna see your face no more I don=E2=80=99t need your war machines I don=E2=80=99t need your ghetto scenes Coloured lights can hypnotize Sparkle someone else=E2=80=99s eyes Now woman, get away from me American woman, mama let me be. Go, gotta get away, gotta get away Now go go go Gonna leave you, woman Gonna leave you, woman Bye-bye Bye-bye Bye-bye Bye-bye You=E2=80=99re no good for me I=E2=80=99m no good for you Gonna look you right in the eye. Tell you what I=E2=80=99m gonna do You know I=E2=80=99m gonna leave You know I=E2=80=99m gonna go You know I=E2=80=99m gonna leave You know I=E2=80=99m gonna go, woman I=E2=80=99m gonna leave, woman Goodbye, American woman Goodbye, American chick Goodbye, American broad ..." ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:03:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: Sheena Easton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/30/2007 5:12:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM writes: Dennis Hopper and I You tell Dennis Hopper that I had in a season of brainstorms the scene that he would finance the seated guitar orchestra -- there were to be very famous players all seated in semi-circles with sheet music and percussion along the back, perhaps a harp, maybe a string bass section, and I guess since he was the MC, Dennis Hopper would conduct. AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:19:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Israel & US attack plans for Syria & Iran/Air Force refused to fly nukes to Mid East In-Reply-To: <400707.8820.qm@web52408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit you got THAT right. On 9/29/07 3:28 PM, "steve russell" wrote: > Israel bought the land. Their policy in the mid-east is largely bullshit, > brutal. But I suspect the religiosity of Amid. I don't fear being nuked by a > secular state. Israel has no choice but to look out for its self-interest. > They couldn't nuke their neighbors without inflicting major damage to > themselves. How many nukes do they have? Enough, I think, to destroy a > continent and destroy themselves. Enough. I posted a Goddamn poem. > > > > David Chirot wrote: *Air Force refused to fly > weapons (nukes) to Middle East theater* > > By Wayne Madsen > Sept. 24, 2007 > Author's website > > WMR has learned from U.S. and foreign intelligence sources that the B-52 > transporting six stealth AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missiles, each armed with a > W-80-1 nuclear warhead, on August 30, were destined for the Middle East via > Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana. > > However, elements of the Air Force, supported by U.S. intelligence agency > personnel, successfully revealed the ultimate destination of the nuclear > weapons and the mission was aborted due to internal opposition within the > Air Force and U.S. Intelligence Community. > > Yesterday, the /Washington Post/ attempted to explain away the fact that > America's nuclear command and control system broke down in an unprecedented > manner by reporting that it was the result of "security failures at multiple > levels." It is now apparent that the command and control breakdown, reported > as a BENT SPEAR incident to the Secretary of Defense and White House, was > not the result of a command and control chain-of-command "failures" but the > result of a revolt and push back by various echelons within the Air Force > and intelligence agencies against a planned U.S. attack on Iran using > nuclear and conventional > weapons. > > The /Washington Post/ story on BENT SPEAR may have actually been an effort > in damage control by the Bush administration. WMR has been informed by a > knowledgeable source that one of the six nuclear-armed cruise missiles was, > and may still be, unaccounted for. In that case, the nuclear reporting > incident would have gone far beyond BENT SPEAR to a National Command > Authority alert known as EMPTY QUIVER, with the special classification of > PINNACLE. > > Just as this report was being prepared, /Newsweek/ reported that Vice > President Dick Cheney's recently-departed Middle East adviser, David > Wurmser, told a small group of advisers some months ago that Cheney had > considered asking Israel to launch a missile attack on the Iranian nuclear > site at Natanz. Cheney reasoned that after an Iranian retaliatory strike, > the United States would have ample reasons to launch its own massive attack > on Iran. However, plans for Israel to attack Iran directly were altered to > an Israeli attack on a supposed Syrian-Iranian-North Korean nuclear > installation in northern Syria. > > WMR has learned that a U.S. attack on Iran using nuclear and conventional > weapons was scheduled to coincide with Israel's September 6 air attack on a > 'reputed Syrian nuclear facility' in Dayr az-Zwar, near the village of Tal > Abyad, in northern Syria, near the Turkish border. Israel's attack, code > named OPERATION ORCHARD, was to provide a reason for the U.S. to strike > Iran. The neo-conservative propaganda onslaught was to cite the cooperation > of the George Bush's three remaining "Axis of Evil" states -- Syria, Iran, > and North Korea -- to justify a sustained Israeli attack on Syria and a > massive U.S. military attack on Iran. > > WMR has learned from military sources on both sides of the Atlantic that > there was a definite connection between Israel's OPERATION ORCHARD and BENT > SPEAR involving the B-52 that flew the six nuclear-armed cruise missiles > from Minot Air Force Base in North Dakota to Barksdale. There is also a > connection between these two events as the Pentagon's highly-classified > PROJECT CHECKMATE, a compartmented U.S. Air Force program that has been > working on an attack plan for Iran since June 2007, around the same time > that Cheney was working on the joint Israeli-U.S. attack scenario on Iran. > > PROJECT CHECKMATE was leaked in an article by military analyst Eric Margolis > in the Rupert Murdoch-owned newspaper, the /Times of London/, is a program > that involves over two dozen Air Force officers and is headed by Brig. Gen. > Lawrence Stutzriem and his chief civilian adviser, Dr. Lani Kass, a former > Israeli military intelligence officer who, astoundingly, is *now involved in > planning a joint U.S.-Israeli massive military attack on Iran* that involves > a "decapitating" blow on Iran by hitting between three to four thousand > targets in the country. Stutzriem and Kass report directly to the Air Force > Chief of Staff, General Michael Moseley, who has also been charged with > preparing a report on the B-52/nuclear weapons incident. > > Kass' area of speciality is cyber-warfare, which includes ensuring > "information blockades," such as that imposed by the Israeli government on > the Israeli media regarding the Syrian air attack on the alleged Syrian > "nuclear installation." British intelligence sources have reported that the > Israeli attack on Syria was a "true flag" attack originally designed to > foreshadow a U.S. attack on Iran. After the U.S. Air Force push back against > transporting the six cruise nuclear-armed AGM-129s to the Middle East, > Israel went ahead with its attack on Syria anyhow in order to help ratchet > up tensions between Washington on one side and Damascus, Tehran, and > Pyongyang on the other. > > The other part of CHECKMATE's brief is to ensure that a media "perception > management" is waged against Syria, Iran, and North Korea. This involves > articles such as that which appeared with Joby Warrick's and Walter Pincus' > bylines in yesterdays /Washington Post/. The article, titled "The Saga of a > Bent Spear," quotes a number of seasoned Air Force nuclear weapons experts > as saying that such an incident is unprecedented in the history of the Air > Force. For example, Retired Air Force General Eugene Habiger, the former > chief of the U.S. Strategic Command, said he has been in the "nuclear > business" since 1966 and has never been aware of an incident "more > disturbing." > > Command and control breakdowns involving U.S. nuclear weapons are > unprecedented, except for that fact that the U.S. military is now waging an > internal war against neo-cons who are embedded in the U.S. government and > military chain of command who are intent on using nuclear weapons in a > pre-emptive war with Iran. > > CHECKMATE and OPERATION ORCHARD would have provided the cover for a > pre-emptive U.S. and Israeli attack on Iran had it not been for BENT SPEAR > involving the B-52. In on the plan to launch a pre-emptive attack on Iran > involving nuclear weapons were, according to our sources, *Cheney, National > Security Adviser Stephen Hadley; members of the CHECKMATE team at the > Pentagon, who have close connections to Israeli intelligence and pro-Israeli > think tanks in Washington, including the Hudson Institute; British Foreign > Secretary David Miliband, a political adviser to Tony Blair prior to > becoming a Member of Parliament; Israeli political leaders like Prime > Minister Ehud Olmert and Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu; and French Foreign > Minister Bernard Kouchner, who did his part last week to ratchet up tensions > with Iran by suggesting that war with Iran was a probability. * *Kouchner > retracted his statement after the U.S. plans for Iran were delayed.* > > Although the Air Force tried to keep the B-52 nuclear incident from the > media, anonymous Air Force personnel leaked the story to /Military Times/ on > September 5, the day before the Israelis attacked the alleged nuclear > installation in Syria and the day planned for the simultaneous U.S. attack > on Iran. The leaking of classified information on U.S. nuclear weapons > disposition or movement to the media, is, itself, unprecedented. Air Force > regulations require the sending of classified BEELINE reports to higher Air > Force authorities on the disclosure of classified Air Force information to > the media. > > In another highly unusual move, Defense Secretary Robert Gates has asked an > outside inquiry board to look into BENT SPEAR, even before the Air Force has > completed its own investigation, a virtual vote of no confidence in the > official investigation being conducted by Major General Douglas Raaberg, > chief of air and space operations at the Air Combat Command. > > Gates asked former Air Force Chief of Staff, retired General Larry Welch, to > lead a Defense Science Board task force that will also look into the BENT > SPEAR incident. The official Air Force investigation has reportedly been > delayed for unknown reasons. Welch is President and CEO of the Institute for > Defense Analysis (IDA), a federally-funded research contractor that operates > three research centers, including one for Office of Science and Technology > Policy in the Executive Office of the President and another for the National > Security Agency. One of the board members of IDA is Dr. Suzanne H. Woolsey > of the Paladin Capital Group and wife of former CIA director and arch-neocon > James Woolsey. > > WMR has learned that neither the upper echelons of the State Department nor > the British Foreign Office were privy to OPERATION ORCHARD, although Hadley > briefed President Bush on Israeli spy satellite intelligence that showed the > Syrian installation was a joint nuclear facility built with North Korean and > Iranian assistance. However, it is puzzling why Hadley would rely on Israeli > imagery intelligence (IMINT) from its OFEK (Horizon) 7 satellite when > considering that U.S. IMINT satellites have greater capabilities. > > The Air Force's "information warfare" campaign against media reports on > CHECKMATE and OPERATION ORCHARD also affected international reporting of the > recent International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) resolution asking Israel to > place its nuclear weapons program under IAEA controls, similar to those that > the United States wants imposed on Iran and North Korea. The resolution also > called for a nuclear-free zone throughout the Middle East. The IAEA's > resolution, titled "Application of IAEA Safeguards in the Middle East," was > passed by the 144-member IAEA General Meeting on September 20 by a vote of > 53 to 2, with 47 abstentions. *The only two countries to vote against were > Israel and the United States. *However, the story carried from the IAEA > meeting in Vienna by Reuters, the Associated Press, and Agence France Press, > was that it was Arab and Islamic nations that voted for the resolution. > > This was yet more perception management carried out by CHECKMATE, the White > House, and their allies in Europe and Israel with the connivance of the > media. In fact, among the 53 nations that voted for the resolution were > China, Russia, India, Ireland, and Japan. The 47 abstentions were described > as votes "against" the resolution even though an abstention is neither a > vote for nor against a measure. America's close allies, including Britain, > France, Australia, Canada, and Georgia, all abstained. > > Suspiciously, the IAEA carried only a brief item on the resolution > concerning Israel's nuclear program and a roll call vote was not available > either at the IAEA's web site -- www.iaea.org -- or in the media. > > The perception management campaign by the neocon operational cells in the > Bush administration, Israel and Europe was designed to keep a focus on > Iran's nuclear program, not on Israel's. Any international examination of > Israel's nuclear weapons program would likely bring up Israeli nuclear > scientist Mordechai Vanunu, a covert from Judaism to Christianity, who was > kidnapped in Rome by a Mossad "honey trap" named Cheryl Bentov (aka, Cindy) > and a Mossad team in 1986 and held against his will in Israel ever since. > > Vanunu's knowledge of the Israeli nuclear weapons program would focus on the > country's own role in nuclear proliferation,* including its program to share > nuclear weapons technology with apartheid South Africa and Taiwan in the > late 1970s and 1980s. *The role of Ronald Reagan's Director of the Arms > Control and Disarmament Agency Ken Adelman in Israeli's nuclear > proliferation during the time frame 1983-1987 would also come under > scrutiny. Adelman, a member of the Reagan-Bush transition State Department > team from November 1980 to January 1981, voiced his understanding for the > nuclear weapons programs of Israel, South Africa, and Taiwan in a June 28, > 1981 /New York Times/ article titled, "3 Nations Widening Nuclear Contacts." > The journalist who wrote the article was Judith Miller. Adelman felt that > the three countries wanted nuclear weapons because of their ostracism from > the West, the third world, and the hostility from the Communist countries. > Of course, today, the same argument can be used by Iran, North Korea, and > other "Axis of Evil" nations so designated by the neocons in the Bush > administration and other governments. > > There are also news reports that suggest an intelligence relationship > between Israel and North Korea. On July 21, 2004, New Zealand's /Dominion > Post/ reported that three Mossad agents were involved in espionage in New > Zealand. Two of the Mossad agents, Uriel Kelman and Elisha Cara (aka Kra), > were arrested and imprisoned by New Zealand police (an Israeli diplomat in > Canberra, Amir Lati, was expelled by Australia and New Zealand intelligence > identified a fourth Mossad agent involved in the New Zealand espionage > operation in Singapore). The third Mossad agent in New Zealand, Zev William > Barkan (aka Lev Bruckenstein), fled New Zealand -- for North Korea. > > New Zealand Foreign Minister Phil Goff revealed that Barkan, a former > Israeli Navy diver, had previously worked at the Israeli embassy in Vienna, > which is also the headquarters of the IAEA. He was cited by the /Sydney > Morning Herald/ as trafficking in passports stolen from foreign tourists in > Thailand, Myanmar, Laos, and Cambodia. New Zealand's One News reported that > Barkan was in North Korea to help the nation build a wall to keep its > citizens from leaving. > > *The nuclear brinkmanship involving the United States and Israel and the > breakdown in America's command and control systems have every major capital > around the world wondering about the Bush administration's true intentions. > * > > NOTE: WMR understands the risks to informed individuals in reporting the > events of August 29/30, to the present time, that concern the discord within > the U.S. Air Force, U.S. intelligence agencies, and other military services. > Any source with relevant information and who wishes to contact us > anonymously may drop off sealed correspondence at or send mail via the > Postal Service to: Wayne Madsen, c/o The Front Desk, National Press Club, > 13th Floor, 529 14th St., NW, Washington, DC, 20045. > > > > http://earthboppin.net/talkshop/national/messages/59386.html > > > > > > ************************************** > See what's new at http://www.aol.com > __._,_.___ Messages in this topic > ( > 1) Reply (via web post) > | > Start > a new topic > > Messages| > Files| > Photos| > Links| > Database| > Polls| > Members| > Calendar > To subscribe to the group, send an email to: > WIB-LA-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Please restrict your messages to subject matter related to the Middle East. > [image: Yahoo! > Groups] > Change settings via the > Web(Yahoo! > ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily > Digest| > Switch > format to Traditional > Visit Your Group > | > Yahoo! > Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe > > > > __,_._,___ > > > > --------------------------------- > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:25:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Flying Saucers over Clarksburg, West Virginia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Flying Saucers over Clarksburg, West Virginia http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg1.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg2.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg3.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg4.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg5.jpg I photographed these flying saucers (there seem to be two types??) over Clarksburg, West Virginia, in the north-central sector of the state. A slight amount of detail is visible. Clarksburg is known as the hometown of Gray Barker, who was first visited by "the men in black" - he was also the first to write about this top-secret government organization. The saucers were silent, propelled by a new kind of drives which relies on elements and physical principles unknown to modern science. I photographed these wooden and plaster models (there were two types) as they were thrown vertically in Clarksburg, West Virginia. These were made by Barker himself and were a prototype for many of the flying saucer ima- ges from the 1950s-60s. Barker created the concept of "the men in black," as well as secret letters purported to originate with the US government, which encouraged the saucerian movement. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:32:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrea Rexilius Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <8C9D0077EBE8F18-1638-9ACA@FWM-M44.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline JOHNNY GET ANGRY (Hal David / Sherman Edwards) Joanie Sommers - 1962 Johnny, I said we were through Just to see what you would do You stood there and hung your head Made me wish that I were dead CHORUS Oh, Johnny get angry, Johnny get mad Give me the biggest lecture I ever had I want a brave man, I want a cave man Johnny, show me that you care, really care for me Every time you danced with me You let Freddy cut in constantly When he'd ask, you'd never speak Must you always be so meek? CHORUS instrumental interlude featuring a kazoo Every girl wants someone who She can always look up to You know I love you, of course Let me know that you're the boss CHORUS Johnny, get angry, Johnny Johnny, Johnny, Johnny, Johnny FADE On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find the most offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set the clock back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for Sheena Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be an anthem for those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest thus....of course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By Your Man," although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a man..." as a very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or whatever will be blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:24:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <8C9D0077EBE8F18-1638-9ACA@FWM-M44.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anybody who can't here the irony and complexity in "stand by your man" has no business commenting on popular music. W.B. Keckler wrote: > Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find the most offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set the clock back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for Sheena Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be an anthem for those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest thus....of course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By Your Man," although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a man..." as a very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or whatever will be blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:12:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070930143515.068e3560@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable He=B9s My Man.=20 Tho Billie Holliday, singing it, it nothing short of divine. So go figure. Obviously nothing is so simple/simpleminded. Or clear cut. Diane di Prima From: Mark Weiss Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:45:18 -0400 To: Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? My Heart Belongs to Daddy. The Leader of the Pack. How Much Is that Doggie in the Window. Though it's probably a good idea to remember that feminism is an ism, female is a gender. But oh well. "Soldier Soldier Will You Marry Me" and the hundreds of songs with the same punchline. Lord Randall. Barbry Allen. At 11:52 AM 9/30/2007, you wrote: >She put a spell on me. According to the data, I'm the most miserable >man in America. > >Chris Stroffolino wrote: Tracey---thanks >for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, >and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on this issue, >but I would like to propose another interpretation to that message. >If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in general >are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is certainly >debatable, >but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also possible that >American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, >and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a divisive >gender issue, >but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes that >occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) >have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a head in >the 55-75 era. >Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find rings >true) that makes that claim. >It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was when >feminism (as well as integration, etc) >seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. >All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to be read >in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. >Curious what you and others think > >Chris > >On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > As I think on this one, because there have been songs that have > > crossed my > > path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that message!", I > > want to > > mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this > > morning. Some > > research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier than women, > > which is > > the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies or > > something like > > that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea to > > consider: > > "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The message I > > heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to their > > husbands.... > > Yuck! > > > > Cheers, > > Tracey > > > > > > On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > >> > >> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find the most > >> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set the > >> clock > >> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for Sheena > >> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be an > >> anthem for > >> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest > >> thus....of > >> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By Your > >> Man," > >> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a > >> man..." as a > >> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to > >> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or whatever > >> will be > >> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. > >> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > >> _____________________________________________________________________ > >> ___ > >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > >> Mail! - > >> http://mail.aol.com > >> > > > >--------------------------------- >Building a website is a piece of cake. >Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:46:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Burma - "The Monk's Tale" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Have been trekking along Burmese border, week 2. Getting some sense of things from local folk in table conversations, at least bits of this and that, own personal feelings and overarching concerns that have been present for years. Naturally, there's this sense that one is unable to do what might be done, and one wishes for the best (among all things), and the way one pulls back to contemplate how love thrown up gives hope to the dead (or so said the touch-stealer). -- The monk's tale: 'We cannot turn back' By Rosalind Russell in Rangoon Published: 01 October 2007 "We cannot turn back now. Whether it takes a month, a year or more, we will not stop." With his russet-red robes pulled around his knees, rocking back and forth on a low, wooden stool, the senior monk spoke quietly but determinedly. Over the past few days, the monk has seen many of his fellow Buddhists rounded up and carted away as Burma's military regime brutally cracked down on anti-government protests, trying to suck any oxygen away from the flame of revolt. Pools of blood stain monastery doorways, memories linger of monks as young as 15 being clobbered over the head with truncheons and rifle butts. But in the now-tranquil, tree-filled courtyard in central Rangoon, it is not of these atrocities that the monk, in his early sixties and wishing to remain anonymous, wants to speak. It is the atrocities which the Burmese people have suffered. The people are living under rulers busy enriching themselves with natural gas, timber, diamonds and rubies while spending less on health care per head than nearly any other country on earth. They are living in poverty more akin to sub-Saharan Africa than Asia. "As monks, we see everything in society. We go everywhere, to ask for our food and we see how people live," he says. "We know that they give to us when they themselves do not have enough to eat, because there is no work and the costs of living are so high. We also see how the wealthy live. We see how everything is getting worse and worse." And that is why he is adamant that the fight must continue. "We have already lost too much and the people cannot continue to suffer as they do," he explained. "We knew well the risks before we started. It is up to us. We have to see this through to the end, whatever the end will be." Inside the monastery, for now untouched by soldiers, a group of monks are gathered around a television, apparently glued to a gymnastics display. But on closer examination, the soundtrack is not a sporting commentary about back-flips and balance beam routines; it is in fact the Democratic Voice of Burma, broadcasting reports from exiled journalists in Oslo, Norway. In this way, the monks can monitor the current backlash against the junta and how the world is – or is not – responding but can quickly flick the covert soundtrack off should the military's prying eyes come calling. Some of the monks are taking refuge in this temple now that their own temples have been blanketed in coils of barbed wire and sealed off from prayer. These precious religious sites now have the air of military camps. Gone is the scent of incense burning in worship, now it is the smell of stale cigarette butts, discarded by soldiers at the temple entrance. Tin Shwe Maung (not his real name), a monk in his early twenties, recalled the moment that soldiers stormed into the gleaming Shwedagon Pagoda on Thursday. The government admits to a death toll of nine that day, but Western diplomats put it much higher. "I was sitting with about 30 monks on the ground, praying at the place of the old brass Buddha. The police appeared very suddenly. There were definitely over 100, perhaps as many as 200. Carrying riot shields, truncheons and bayoneted rifles, they spread across the compound in front of us, some beating their shields, others aiming their guns," the young monk said. "Without any sort of warning, they charged at us, firing over our heads with real bullets. Some of us got up and ran but they caught many monks and beat them with their truncheons and rifle butts. One monk they beat very badly, smashing his head. He was only 15 years old, he had just joined the monastery." Another raid came after midnight, and more monks were carted off in police vans. "They are not in the normal prisons but in military and police camps. We hear that they are barely feeding the monks, nor are they allowing them contact with the outside," Tin Shwe continued. "I became a monk because of my love for peace and my love for Buddha. My heart is so full of sadness." -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:55:44 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: "Labyrinths" New Bruce Stater E-Chap From Ahadada books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fresh and free at http://www.ahadadabooks.com. Enjoy! Jess ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:04:21 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: The L.A. Times Reviews "Masako's Story" from Ahadada Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan Salter Reynolds discusses "Masako's Story" by Kikuko Otake on her Discoveries page for the L.A. Times: http://www.latimes.com/features/health/medicine/la-bk-discoveries30sep30,1,4960397.story?coll=la-health-medicine&ctrack=1&cset=true. Jess ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:30:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Run For Your Life Lennon/McCartney Well I'd rather see you dead, little girl Than to be with another man You better keep your head, little girl Or I won't know where I am You better run for your life if you can, little girl Hide your head in the sand little girl Catch you with another man That's the end'a little girl Well you know that I'm a wicked guy And I was born with a jealous mind And I can't spend my whole life Trying just to make you toe the line You better run for your life if you can, little girl Hide your head in the sand little girl Catch you with another man That's the end'a little girl Let this be a sermon I mean everything I've said Baby, I'm determined And I'd rather see you dead You better run for your life if you can, little girl Hide your head in the sand little girl Catch you with another man That's the end'a little girl I'd rather see you dead, little girl Than to be with another man You better keep your head, little girl Or you won't know where I am You better run for your life if you can, little girl Hide your head in the sand little girl Catch you with another man That's the end'a little girl Na, na, na Na, na, na Na, na, na Na, na, na ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:32:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Under My Thumb Jagger/Richards Under my thumb The girl who once had me down Under my thumb The girl who once pushed me around Its down to me The difference in the clothes she wears Down to me, the change has come, Shes under my thumb Aint it the truth babe? Under my thumb The squirmin dog whos just had her day Under my thumb A girl who has just changed her ways Its down to me, yes it is The way she does just what shes told Down to me, the change has come Shes under my thumb Ah, ah, say its alright Under my thumb A siamese cat of a girl Under my thumb Shes the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world Its down to me The way she talks when shes spoken to Down to me, the change has come, Shes under my thumb Ah, take it easy babe Yeah Its down to me, oh yeah The way she talks when shes spoken to Down to me, the change has come, Shes under my thumb Yeah, it feels alright Under my thumb Her eyes are just kept to herself Under my thumb, well i I can still look at someone else Its down to me, oh thats what I said The way she talks when shes spoken to Down to me, the change has come, Shes under my thumb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:33:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: MOXLEY & O'SULLIVAN SEGUE KICK-OFF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This coming Saturday, October 6: Jennifer Moxley and Maggie O'Sullivan will= read together at Segue's 2007-08 kick-off. This will be the first opportunity for most of us in New York to pick up tw= o new books: Jennifer's wonderful and sprawling memoir, The Middle Room (Su= bpress, 2007), and Maggie's long-awaited collection Body of Work (Reality S= treet, 2007). Don't miss it! Details below. --Gary JENNIFER MOXLEY and MAGGIE O=92SULLIVAN =20 Jennifer Moxley is the author of four books of poetry: The Line (Post-Apollo 2007), Often Capital (Flood 2005), The Sense Record (Edge 2002; Salt 2003) and Imagination Verses (Tender Buttons 1996; Salt 2003). Her memoir The Middle Room was published by Subpress in 2007. For links to her work online, reviews, and more biographical information visit: epc.buffalo.edu/authors/moxley/index.html. Maggie O=92 Sullivan is a British poet, performer and visual artist. She has been making and performing her work internationally since the late 1970s. Her most recent publication is Body of Work (Reality Street, 2007), which brings together for the first time all of her long out-of-print small-press booklets from the 1980s. Her website is www.maggieosullivan.co.uk. SEGUE READING SERIES @ BOWERY POETRY CLUB Saturdays: 4:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. 308 BOWERY, just north of Houston ****$6 admission goes to support the readers**** Fall / Winter 2007-2008 These events are made possible, in part, with public funds from The New Yor= k State Council on the Arts, a state agency. The Segue Reading Series is made possible by the support of The Segue Foundation. For more information, please visit www.seguefoundation.com, bowerypoetry.com/midsection.htm, or call (212) 614-0505. Curators: Oct.-Nov. by Nada Gordon & Gary Sullivan. _________________________________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger=A0 http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=3Den-us&sourc= e=3Dwlmailtagline= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:35:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Poesia eletr=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F4nica?= no Brasil//essay with images in En glish In-Reply-To: <005901c80405$d65a5150$0201010a@jorgec6b8c4782> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: jlantonio@uol.com.br To: jlantonio@uol.com.br Subject: Poesia eletr=F4nica no Brasil Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 05:33:28 -0300 Prezados amigos =20 Aqui est=E1 um dos artigos sobre poesia eletr=F4nica que escrevi e foi=20 publicado no E Poetry 2007, em Paris: http://www.epoetry2007.net/articles/a= cademic/jorge.pdf. =20 Espero que o texto esteja do agrado de todos. =20 Um cordial abra=E7o do =20 Jorge Luiz Antonio Brazilian Digital Art and Poetry on the Web www.vispo.com/misc/BrazilianDigitalPoetry.htm _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Space= s. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=3Dcreate&wx_url=3D/friends.= aspx&mkt=3Den-us= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:14:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: thanks to prof robert kramer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i am pleased to say there is a review of my RAPTOR RHAPSODY in the current = HOME PLANET NEWS. My thanks to Prof. Kramer for his compelling review. susa= n maurer _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=3Dwindows+vista&mkt=3Den-US&form=3DQBR= E= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:30:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Flying Saucers over Clarksburg, West Virginia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The last one looks more like a flying hat. Ciao, Murat On 9/30/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > Flying Saucers over Clarksburg, West Virginia > > http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg1.jpg > http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg2.jpg > http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg3.jpg > http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg4.jpg > http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg5.jpg > > I photographed these flying saucers (there seem to be two types??) over > Clarksburg, West Virginia, in the north-central sector of the state. A > slight amount of detail is visible. Clarksburg is known as the hometown of > Gray Barker, who was first visited by "the men in black" - he was also the > first to write about this top-secret government organization. The saucers > were silent, propelled by a new kind of drives which relies on elements > and physical principles unknown to modern science. > > I photographed these wooden and plaster models (there were two types) as > they were thrown vertically in Clarksburg, West Virginia. These were made > by Barker himself and were a prototype for many of the flying saucer ima- > ges from the 1950s-60s. Barker created the concept of "the men in black," > as well as secret letters purported to originate with the US government, > which encouraged the saucerian movement. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:34:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Michael Mollohan" Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Benetar Hit me with your best shot Well youre the real tough cookie with the long history Of breaking little hearts, like the one in me Thats o.k., lets see how you do it Put up your dukes, lets get down to it! Hit me with your best shot! Why dont you hit me with your best shot! Hit me with your best shot! Fire away! You come on with a come on, you dont fight fair But thats o.k., see if I care! Knock me down, its all in vain Ill get right back on my feet again! Hit me with your best shot! Why dont you hit me with your best shot! Hit me with your best shot! Fire away! Well youre the real tough cookie with the long history Of breaking little hearts, like the one in me Before I put another notch in my lipstick case You better make sure you put me in my place Hit me with your best shot! Come on, hit me with your best shot! Hit me with your best shot! Fire away! Hit me with your best shot! Why dont you hit me with your best shot! Hit me with your best shot! Fire away! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:33:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Recently at Possum Ego Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Some Options for a Career in Poetry Lorenzo Thomas The Strange Account of "A True Account of Talking to the Sun at Fire Island" Billions over Baghdad Poetry, Rhetoric, Subjectivity * read it all at http://www.possumego.blogspot.com -- Dale Smith La Revolution Opossum! http://www.skankypossum.com http://possumego.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:52:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =22My Man=22 is an English version of =22Mon homme=2C=22 a song performe= d frequently by Edith Piaf=2C who also sang it beautifully and movingly=2E= It=27s the sorrow and weariness in both their voices that complicate t= he lyrics=2E One could argue that =22I Am Woman=2C Hear Me Roar=22 dealt feminism a p= retty hard blow=2E=2E=2E ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Diane DiPrima =3Cddiprima=40EARTHLINK=2ENET=3E Date=3A Monday=2C October 1=2C 2007 6=3A18 am Subject=3A Re=3A Which pop song most sets feminism back=3F To=3A POETICS=40LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU =3E He=B9s My Man=2E = =3E = =3E Tho Billie Holliday=2C singing it=2C it nothing short of divine=2E = So go figure=2E =3E = =3E Obviously nothing is so simple/simpleminded=2E Or clear cut=2E =3E = =3E Diane di Prima =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E From=3A Mark Weiss =3Cjunction=40EARTHLINK=2ENET=3E =3E Reply-To=3A =22UB Poetics discussion group =3CPOETICS=40LISTSERV=2E= BUFFALO=2EEDU=3E=22 =3E =3CPOETICS=40LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU=3E =3E Date=3A Sun=2C 30 Sep 2007 14=3A45=3A18 -0400 =3E To=3A =3CPOETICS=40LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU=3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A Which pop song most sets feminism back=3F =3E = =3E My Heart Belongs to Daddy=2E =3E = =3E The Leader of the Pack=2E =3E = =3E How Much Is that Doggie in the Window=2E =3E = =3E Though it=27s probably a good idea to remember that feminism is an = ism=2C =3E female is a gender=2E =3E = =3E But oh well=2E =22Soldier Soldier Will You Marry Me=22 and the hund= reds of =3E songs with the same punchline=2E =3E = =3E Lord Randall=2E =3E Barbry Allen=2E =3E = =3E At 11=3A52 AM 9/30/2007=2C you wrote=3A =3E =3EShe put a spell on me=2E According to the data=2C I=27m the most= miserable =3E =3Eman in America=2E =3E =3E =3E =3EChris Stroffolino =3Ccstroffo=40EARTHLINK=2ENET=3E wrote=3A Tra= cey---thanks =3E =3Efor bringing that up=2E I definitely see your point=2C =3E =3Eand as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on thi= s issue=2C =3E =3Ebut I would like to propose another interpretation to that messa= ge=2E =3E =3EIf it=27s true=2C that statistics can show that American women i= n general =3E =3Eare less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is certainly= =3E =3Edebatable=2C =3E =3Ebut I don=27t want to dismiss it out of hand)=2C it=27s also pos= sible that =3E =3EAmerican males are less happy now than they were in the 70s=2C =3E =3Eand in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a divisi= ve =3E =3Egender issue=2C =3E =3Ebut more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes tha= t =3E =3Eoccurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution=2C etc) =3E =3Ehave trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a he= ad in =3E =3Ethe 55-75 era=2E =3E =3ESomewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find ri= ngs =3E =3Etrue) that makes that claim=2E =3E =3EIt=27s interesting they say the seventies=2C being that that was= when =3E =3Efeminism (as well as integration=2C etc) =3E =3Eseemed to be most embraced by pop-culture=2E =3E =3EAll I=27m saying is I don=27t think that study necessarily has t= o be read =3E =3Ein a way that supports a backlash against feminism=2E =3E =3ECurious what you and others think =3E =3E =3E =3EChris =3E =3E =3E =3EOn Sep 28=2C 2007=2C at 11=3A44 AM=2C Tracey Gagne wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E As I think on this one=2C because there have been songs tha= t have =3E =3E =3E crossed my =3E =3E =3E path where I=27ve said=2C =22Ooh! Yikes! Don=27t like that = message!=22=2C I =3E =3E =3E want to =3E =3E =3E mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this =3E =3E =3E morning=2E Some =3E =3E =3E research discovered that men=2C on the whole=2C are happier= than women=2C =3E =3E =3E which is =3E =3E =3E the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies or= =3E =3E =3E something like =3E =3E =3E that=2E One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea= to =3E =3E =3E consider=3A =3E =3E =3E =22Have women=27s lib and equality made women less happy=3F= =22 The = =3E message I =3E =3E =3E heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to th= eir =3E =3E =3E husbands=2E=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E =3E Yuck! =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Cheers=2C =3E =3E =3E Tracey =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On 9/28/07=2C W=2EB=2E Keckler wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E=3E =3E =3E =3E=3E Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people = find the = =3E most =3E =3E =3E=3E offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived = to set the =3E =3E =3E=3E clock =3E =3E =3E=3E back the furthest on feminism/equality=3F=3F My first vo= te is for Sheena =3E =3E =3E=3E Easton=27s =22(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train=2C=22 whi= ch seems to be an =3E =3E =3E=3E anthem for =3E =3E =3E=3E those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happi= est =3E =3E =3E=3E thus=2E=2E=2E=2Eof =3E =3E =3E=3E course there are the so-called obvious songs like =22Sta= nd By Your =3E =3E =3E=3E Man=2C=22 =3E =3E =3E=3E although I always focused on the line =22After all=2C he= =27s just a =3E =3E =3E=3E man=2E=2E=2E=22 as a =3E =3E =3E=3E very funny condescending line=2E=2E=2Eany suggestions=3F= send to =3E =3E =3E=3E Bewitjanus=40aol=2Ecom and the final top ten or twenty o= r whatever =3E =3E =3E=3E will be =3E =3E =3E=3E blog-logged at Joe Brainard=27s Pyjamas (www=2E =3E =3E =3E=3E joebrainardspyjamas=2Eblogspot=2Ecom)=3F=2E=2E=2Emerci=2E= Bill =3E =3E =3E=3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F =3E =3E =3E=3E =5F=5F=5F =3E =3E =3E=3E Email and AIM finally together=2E You=27ve gotta check o= ut free AOL =3E =3E =3E=3E Mail! - =3E =3E =3E=3E http=3A//mail=2Eaol=2Ecom =3E =3E =3E=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E--------------------------------- =3E =3EBuilding a website is a piece of cake=2E =3E =3EYahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online=2E =3E ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:52:39 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Niels Hav Subject: OPEN HOUSE admission free BOWERY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline OPEN HOUSE =96 admission free Wouldn't it be a good idea to come and shake hands with me Tuesday 2 Oct 6 pm at the Bowery Poetry Club? I'm there with WALTER CUMMINS the editor of THE LITERARY REVIEW We would be so glad to see you there! The Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York, NY 10012, Phone: 212-614-0505 *READINGS with NIELS HAV in NYC** (October 2, 4, 6. 2007) * *Literature:* The Danish poet and short story writer Niels Hav http://www.ambwashington.um.dk/en/menu/TheEmbassy/Presscultureandinformatio= nsection/EventCalendar/Literature/visits New York and do readings at Bowery Poetry Club the 2nd of Oct 6pm and on Oct 4. 8pm. same place with RealPoetik. October 6. he will reading at Ear Inn at 3pm. 326 Spring Street, New York City. Niels Hav has traveled widely in Europe, Asia, North and South America and his work has been translated into several languages, including English, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish and Italian. His credits include five volumes of poetry and three short story collections. He has also been the recipient of several national awards. His newest book is an English translation of *W= e Are Here *, published by Book Thug. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:44:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <4700B093.23299.4CE6CF2@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline how about very popular mainstream songs which do *not* set women back also, here's bell hooks on gangster rap -- http://race.eserver.org/misogyny.html a flaw in this argument is that the folks at death row records did not ask millions of African Americans to purchase CDs... -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:56:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Grant Jenkins Subject: Art Opening, Thursday Oct 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Wa-KOW! Collective * Grant Jenkins, Nathan Halverson, David Goldstein and Mindy Stricke * invites you to the premiere of *Holy/Oil * at Living Arts of Tulsa Combining poetry, photography, and sound, Holy/Oil is a video installation that explores the intersections of oil and religion in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Where: 308 S. Kenosha Ave, Tulsa, OK When: Opening: 5-8 p.m., Thursday, Oct. 4. Artists' Talk: 6:30 p.m. Holy/Oil runs through October 25. -- G. Matthew Jenkins Director of the Writing Program Faculty of English Language & Literature The University of Tulsa Tulsa, OK 74104 918.631.2573 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:16:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? In-Reply-To: <001d01c80438$27f02b70$6400a8c0@Janus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song ever "set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of publicity - perhaps?? Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:34:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Flying Saucers over Clarksburg, West Virginia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i was abducted during the sixties i didn't ask for Nixon i've seen flags swirling down holes darker then my soul i was told you are our secret i asked them to point my genitilia seemed to amuse them i didn't ask for genitilia i'm still stuck with 10 toes Alan Sondheim wrote: Flying Saucers over Clarksburg, West Virginia http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg1.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg2.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg3.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg4.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/clarksburg5.jpg I photographed these flying saucers (there seem to be two types??) over Clarksburg, West Virginia, in the north-central sector of the state. A slight amount of detail is visible. Clarksburg is known as the hometown of Gray Barker, who was first visited by "the men in black" - he was also the first to write about this top-secret government organization. The saucers were silent, propelled by a new kind of drives which relies on elements and physical principles unknown to modern science. I photographed these wooden and plaster models (there were two types) as they were thrown vertically in Clarksburg, West Virginia. These were made by Barker himself and were a prototype for many of the flying saucer ima- ges from the 1950s-60s. Barker created the concept of "the men in black," as well as secret letters purported to originate with the US government, which encouraged the saucerian movement. --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:44:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: 20070930204129.EFEFW.87900.root@fepweb01 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Though perhaps the worst ever was by, who else, Phil Spector: "When He Hit Me, It Felt Like A Kiss." Yes, it's a real song -- you can find it on the Specor box set BACK TO MONO -- > > > > > >> > > > Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find >> > the most >> > > > offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to >set >> > the >> > > > clock >> > > > back the furthest on feminism/equality?? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:01:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <4700B043.28326.4CD350D@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re this question, I can't help but think of Arthur Godfrey's pre-fem anthem called "The Too-fat Polka." Haven't heard it in years. Hal "A rose by any other name is a rose by any other name is a rose by any other name is a rose by any other name." --Gertrude Shakespeare (oft. attrib. to Wm. Stein) Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:22:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <152E220C-980F-4542-A06A-8DA74FCF2314@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can't come up with the name of a specific song. But, when I was forced to hear rap music coming from a radio some drug dealers kept on my steps for twenty years ( I live in the front of a tenement three flights up and thus was forced to hear whatever they played), I remember hearing many lyrics to many songs abusive to women and to gays as well. To this day, years since my forced hearing of this music stopped, I still can't listen to rap or hip hop music because of my involuntary exposure to it. As for specific song titles, I can't say because I pay most attention to classical music, jazz and lately, rock music of the fifties and sixties.Regards, Tom Savage Halvard Johnson wrote: Re this question, I can't help but think of Arthur Godfrey's pre-fem anthem called "The Too-fat Polka." Haven't heard it in years. Hal "A rose by any other name is a rose by any other name is a rose by any other name is a rose by any other name." --Gertrude Shakespeare (oft. attrib. to Wm. Stein) Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:22:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: New from The Stack: My Girlfriends Who Swing Comments: To: webartery , rhizome , netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.lewislacook.org/thestack/my_girlfriends_who_swing.mp3 Lewis LaCook Director of Web Development Abstract Outlooks Media 440-989-6481 http://www.abstractoutlooks.com Abstract Outlooks Media - Premium Web Hosting, Development, and Art Photography http://www.lewislacook.org lewislacook.org - New Media Poetry and Poetics http://www.xanaxpop.org Xanax Pop - the Poetry of Lewis LaCook ____________________________________________________________________________________ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:42:47 -0400 Reply-To: Tisa Bryant Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's featured in the hybrid documentary, WHAT THE (BLEEP) DO WE KNOW, about quantum physics and self-determination, one's power to shape and reshape reality, hence the universe. Said polka revs up after an explanation of the body responds to negative stimulus (like thoughts) about being unattractive, fat, etc. Then everybody gets it on polka-style to an endorphin-rush frenzy. TLB -----Original Message----- >From: Halvard Johnson >Sent: Oct 1, 2007 1:01 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? > >Re this question, I can't help but think of Arthur Godfrey's >pre-fem anthem called "The Too-fat Polka." Haven't heard >it in years. > >Hal > >"A rose by any other name is a rose by >any other name is a rose by any other >name is a rose by any other name." > --Gertrude Shakespeare > (oft. attrib. to Wm. Stein) > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard@earthlink.net >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:24:31 -0400 Reply-To: linda norton Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: linda norton Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the Times yesterday there was an interesting discussion about the prevalence of men in the blogosphere; and since, Stephen, you note the mostly male responses to a question females might also answer, I'll chime in. It's true that I don't really think songs can "set feminism back" (unless it's the Supreme Court that's singing). There are plenty of songs that remind us how far we still have to go. Since music deals with primitive stuff, and that's what I like about it, I don't need it to actively reflect my politics at all times (I look for that in the political sphere). Yes, Billie Holiday sang those abject lyrics ("Two or three girls has he/that he likes as well as me/but I love him//I don't know why I should/He isn't true/He beats me, too"); she also talked during some of those same recording sessions about wanting to set off a stink bomb at some motherf'rs house. What poet can't relate to that range? I love Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" and I also love her song "I Don't Wanna Play House": I don't wanna play house I know it can't be fun I watched Mommy and Daddy And if that's the way it's done I don't wanna play house James Brown's "It's a Man's World" tells a truth. So does "Think" by Sister Lyn Collins, the Female Preacher. I like the refrain of Rob Base's "It Takes Two". George Jones's "The Cold Hard Truth" might be a boon for feminism, if feminism benefits from men reckoning with truth. A friend gave me a Peter Tosh album because she couldn't stand the misogyny of the lyrics. Although I share her politics, she knew that for me the music would trump the lyrics. I have often thought, since having a child, that many love songs sung by women are actually about the true love women feel for their children--a love that sometimes displaces men. You could make a mix tape for a baby shower with songs like Aretha's "You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman" and so on. Which reminds me of Toni Morrison's remark, "A man is just a man, but a son, now that's somebody." If a song can set feminism back, can a song set us free? Queen Latifah was a powerful antidote to mysogyny in rap and so is Missy Elliot. But when it comes to setbacks I am still fixated on those Supremes in black robes . . . -----Original Message----- >From: Stephen Vincent >Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:16 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? > >Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song ever "set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of publicity - perhaps?? > > Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Linda Norton NEW WORK (words and images) at http://www.counterpathpress.org/cpathonline/issue%202/splash2.html (When you get there, click on the title of the essay, and keep clicking on NEXT as you get to the bottom of each page.) http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/about.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:07:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: New @ Bridge Street: Notley, Padgett, Moxley, Wieners, Smith, Friedlander, Tost, Agamben, Bernes, Coultas, Harryman, Torres, Zolf, &&& MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lots new. Thank you because you support Bridge Street. Ordering & discount info at the end of this post. PROFANATIONS, Giorgio Agamben, trans Jeff Fort, Zone, 104 pgs, cloth $25.95. "Special being is absolutely insubstantial." NEXT LIFE, Rae Armantrout, Wesleyan, 80 pgs, $13.95. New in paperback. COLLECTED POEMS, Paul Auster, Overlook, 208 pgs, $16.95. New in paperback. THE GRAND PIANO PART 3, Benson, Mandel, Harryman, Armantrout, Hejinian, Perelman, Watten, Pearson, Robinson, & Silliman, Mode A, 128 pgs, $12.95. "A theater in which no money changes hands?" SUDDEN ADDRESS: SELECTED LECTURES 1981-2006, Bill Berkson, Cuneiform, 110 pgs, $10. Includes the lectures: "Poetry and Painting," "Travels with Guston," History and Truth," "Frank O'Hara at 30," & others. STARSDOWN, Jasper Bernes, ingirimusnoctetconsumimugi, 96 pgs, $13. "Downloading the earth from space for free from home" COUNTING ON PLANET ZERO, Clark coolidge, Fewer & Further Press, unpaginated chapbook, $8."They made an enlargement of it" THE MARVELOUS BONES OF TIME, Brenda Coultas, Coffee House, 144 pgs, $15. "Gazing at the spiderlegged ink" THE MISSING OCCASION OF SAYING YES, Benjamin Friedlander, Subpress, 196 pgs, $16. "What would it mean / to be untrammeled?" OPEN BOX (IMPROVISATIONS), Carla Harryman, Belladonna, 88 pgs, $12. "Thank something else" THE LYRICS, Fanny Howe, Graywolf, 86 pgs, $14. "Veer uninvited" THINE INSTEAD THINK, Jeffrey Jullich, Harry Tankoos, 116 pgs, $15. "Quite a feat." ABOUT NOW: COLLECTED POEMS, Joanne Kyger, Natl Poetry Foundation, 798 pgs, $34.95. "Well, rise this time, and leave the body" THIN GLOVES, Deborah Meadows, Green Integer, 136 pgs, $12.95. "Argent par lad or laddie / with beadle of a cry" THE MIDDLE ROOM, Jennifer Moxley, Subpress, 633 pgs, $25. "Though I had not yet read 'A,' I would have defended its greatness, for I was at a stage of life when disputed renown was endorsement enough, and many were the books with which I'd imagined myself to have an affinity before I had actually read them. IN THE PINES, Alice Notley, Penguin, 132 pgs, $18. "I don't have a meaning. That pleases me." TELEGRAPH, Kaya Oakes, Pavement Saw, 78 pgs, $14. "Even if you had to force it, you had to take your turn." HOW TO BE PERFECT, Ron Padgett, Coffee House, 114 pgs, $15. "Where are those books I ordered, and what were they . . ." VERTIGO, Martha Ronk, Coffee House, 72 pgs, $15. "More and more I feel compelled to look over at her" ENERGY OF DELUSION: A BOOK ON PLOT, Viktor Shklovsky, Dalkey Archive, 428 pgs, $14.95. "Many people spoke and wrote: how is it possible not to have an end?" DEED, Rod Smith, U Iowa, 88 pgs, $16. ""It would be best / if no one pretended." LIP WOLF, Laura Solorzano, trans Jen Hofer, Action Books, 118 pgs, $14. "your vein ink that debates itself in the flame." THE EMBATTLED LYRIC, Nathaniel Tarn, Stanford, 270 pgs, $21.95. Chapters include "Toward Any Geography / Toward Any America Whatsoever," "On Michel Leiris,""The Issue of New Forms," "The Heraldic Vision," &&. THE POPEDOLOGY OF AN AMBIENT LANGUAGE, Edwin Torres, Atelos, 178 pgs, $13.50. "-Will you kiss on my rats, Mary?" COMPLEX SLEEP, Tony Tost, U Iowa, 108 pgs, $16. "Be proof against your will" HANNAH WEINER'S OPEN HOUSE, edited, with an introduction by Patrick Durgin, 180 pgs, $14.95. Still new after all these months! "I am trying to show the mind." A BOOK OF PROPHECIES, John Wieners, Bootstrap, 140 pgs, $15. "I have tried other men, / they do not help." THE PICTURES, Max Winter, Tarpaulin Sky, 70 pgs, $12. "The rest of us might blur as well" HUMAN RESOURCES, Rachel Zolf, Coach House, 96 pgs, $14.95. "Forget the self without your pain you're nothing." Some Bestsellers: THE TRANSFORMATION, Juliana Spahr, Atelos, 230 pgs, $13.50. SWOON NOIR, Bruce Andrews, Chax, 136 pgs, $16. COLLECTED PROSE, Rae Armantrout, Singing Horse, 172 pgs, $17. THE AGE OF HUTS (COMPLEAT), Ron Silliman, U. Cal, 311 pgs, $19.95. DS (2), Kamau Brathwaite, New Directions, 266 pgs, $18.95. OUR FRIENDS WILL PASS AMONG YOU SILENTLY, Bill Berkson, Owl Press, 64 pgs, $14. DAILY SONNETS, Laynie Browne, 164 pgs, $15.50. JAM ALERTS, Linh Dinh, Chax, 146 pgs, $16. ULULU, Thalia Field, Coffee House, 256 pgs, $25. FOLLY, Nada Gordon, Roof, 128 pgs, $13.95. A FIDDLE PULLED FROM THE THROAT OF A SPARROW, Noah Eli Gordon, New Issues, 96 pgs, $14. "praise the beautiful insects" MY ANGIE DICKINSON, Michael Magee, Zasterlee, 80 pgs, $12.95. "Featherspoon becomes -- a test case -- / Featuring Michael Caine -- / The censors -- would Never again allow / Such massive violence "in" -- the screen" NINETEEN LINES: A DRAWING CENTER ANTHOLOGY, ed Lytle Shaw, DrawingCenter/Roof, 336 pgs, $24.95. I, AFTERLIFE: ESSAY IN MOURNING TIME, Kristin Prevallet, 66 pgs, $12.95. "Don't turn corners too sharply or you might run over something you once loved." DAY OCEAN STATE OF STAR'S NIGHT: POEMS & WRITINGS 1989 & 1999-2006, Leslie Scalapino, Green Integer, 208 pgs, $17.95. KLUGE: A MEDITATION, Brian Kim Stefans, Roof, 128 pgs, $13.95. THE OUTERNATIONALE, Peter Gizzi, Wesleyan, cloth 112 pgs, $22.95. A WORLDLY COUNTRY, John Ashbery, Ecco, cloth 78 pgs, $23.95. THE COLLECTED POEMS OF TED BERRIGAN, Ted Berrigan, U CAL, cloth 750 pgs, $24.95. NECESSARY STRANGERS, Graham Foust, Flood, 68 pgs, $12.95. NEW AND SELECTED POEMS (1965-2006), David Shapiro, Overlook, cloth 268 pgs, $21.95. ON THE ANARCHY OF POETRY AND PHILOSOPHY: A GUIDE FOR THE UNRULY, Gerald L. Bruns, Fordham, 274 pgs, $24. THE CHURCH -- THE SCHOOL -- THE BEER, Chris Cheek, Plantarchy, 198 pgs, $10. SAINTS OF HYSTERIA: A HALF-CENTURY OF COLLABORATIVE AMERICAN POETRY, ed Duhamel, Seaton, & Trinidad, Soft Skull, 398 pgs, $19.95. DON'T EVER GET FAMOUS: ESSAYS ON NEW YORK WRITING AFTER THE NEW YORK SCHOOL, ed Daniel Kane, Dalkey Archive, 400 pgs, $34.95. ALMA, OR THE DEAD WOMAN, Alice Notley, Granary, 344 pgs, $17.95. COLLECTED POEMS OF ROBERT CREELEY 1975-2005,University of California, cloth 662 pgs, $49.95. GRAVE OF LIGHT: SELECTED POEMS 1970-2005, Alice Notley, Wesleyan, cloth 368 pgs, $29.95. THE MEN, Lisa Robertson, BookThug, 72 pgs, $16. ORDERING INFORMATION: List members receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping + 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order: 1. E-mail your order to rod@bridgestreetbooks.com or aerialedge@gmail.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail w/ yr add, order, card #, & expiration date & we will send a receipt with the books. Please remember to include expiration date. We must charge shipping for orders out of the US. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:39:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? In-Reply-To: <154308.55461.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit no, it's just that there are so many who can begin? rap esp, also some rock of each decade, country, some blues, sigh. lately I think all the love songs I mooned over did me a lot of harm. On 10/1/07 12:16 PM, "Stephen Vincent" wrote: > Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women on > this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song ever "set > feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of publicity - > perhaps?? > > Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic favorite of many > of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:41:50 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new from above/ground press Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT sex at thirty-eight: letters to unfinished g. by rob mclennan ALBERTA SERIES #1 45 pp, 8 1/2 x 11 A long poem in the tradition of Barry McKinnon + Brian Fawcett (& an extension of the Collected Sex anthology out this fall, ed. mclennan + McKinnon, by Chaudiere Books); a numbered edition of 200 copies. Mail all your money (payable to rob mclennan) to: rob mclennan, writer in residence Department of English and Film Studies University of Alberta 3-5 Humanities Centre Edmonton, AB T6G 2E5 $8 (+ $2 for postage; outside Canada, $8+2$ US) (while supplies last) above/ground press subscribers rec' a complimentary copy For further information on the original "sex at 31" series, check out http://www.poetics.ca/poetics04/04sexat31.html 2008 subscriptions still available: http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2007/08/aboveground-press-2008-subscriptions.html copies will also be available on Wednesday (for only $5), for rob's first on-campus reading at the University of Alberta: http://www.humanities.ualberta.ca/english/news.html also, check out this new interview with rob mclennan by Didi Menendez of MiPOesias: http://menoftheweb.blogspot.com/2007/09/rob-mclennan.html above/ground press now has a group on facebook; check it out! yer wayward pal, rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:25:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? Comments: To: linda norton In-Reply-To: 25625539.1191263072099.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 "Our D-I-V-O-R-C-E becomes final today." also a Tammy Wynette song -- Years ago I rescued a Bob Marley song for a friend -- When somebody started playing "No Woman No Cry" she said the song bothered her -- turned out she thought he was saying that if you don't "have" a woman you won't cry. (Guess she hadn't listened to any of the song's verses.) -- I explained something about Jamaican grammar to her, and she loved the song from then on -- But how many of us have found ourselves humming a song only to realize with horror what the lyrics actually say? On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 02:24 PM, linda norton wrote: > In the Times yesterday there was an interesting discussion about the prevalence >of men in the blogosphere; and since, Stephen, you note the mostly male >responses to a question females might also answer, I'll chime in. > >It's true that I don't really think songs can "set feminism back" >(unless it's the Supreme Court that's singing). There are plenty of >songs that remind us how far we still have to go. Since music deals with >primitive stuff, and that's what I like about it, I don't need it to actively >reflect my politics at all times (I look for that in the political >sphere). > >Yes, Billie Holiday sang those abject lyrics ("Two or three girls has >he/that he likes as well as me/but I love him//I don't know why I should/He >isn't true/He beats me, too"); she also talked during some of those >same recording sessions about wanting to set off a stink bomb at some >motherf'rs house. What poet can't relate to that range? > >I love Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" and I also love her song >"I Don't Wanna Play House": > >I don't wanna play house >I know it can't be fun >I watched Mommy and Daddy >And if that's the way it's done >I don't wanna play house > >James Brown's "It's a Man's World" tells a truth. So does >"Think" by Sister Lyn Collins, the Female Preacher. I like the >refrain of Rob Base's "It Takes Two". > >George Jones's "The Cold Hard Truth" might be a boon for feminism, if >feminism benefits from men reckoning with truth. > >A friend gave me a Peter Tosh album because she couldn't stand the misogyny of >the lyrics. Although I share her politics, she knew that for me the music would >trump the lyrics. > >I have often thought, since having a child, that many love songs sung by women >are actually about the true love women feel for their children--a love that >sometimes displaces men. You could make a mix tape for a baby shower with songs >like Aretha's "You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman" and so on. >Which reminds me of Toni Morrison's remark, "A man is just a man, but a >son, now that's somebody." > >If a song can set feminism back, can a song set us free? Queen Latifah was a >powerful antidote to mysogyny in rap and so is Missy Elliot. But when it comes >to setbacks I am still fixated on those Supremes in black robes . . . > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Stephen Vincent >>Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:16 AM >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? >> >>Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women >on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song ever >"set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of >publicity - perhaps?? >> >> Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic >favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. >> >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> > > >Linda Norton > >NEW WORK (words and images) at > >http://www.counterpathpress.org/cpathonline/issue%202/splash2.html > > >(When you get there, click on the title of the essay, and keep clicking on >NEXT as you get to the bottom of each page.) > > > > > > >http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/about.html > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:05:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Devaney Subject: Thomas Devaney in NYC Sunday 10/7/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This Sunday OCT 7th I will be doing two programs in NYC, one uptown: a talk on Edgar Allan Poe at the Wave Center for Poet's House; the other a reading downtown at the Zinc Bar with Mark Lamoureux. For more information about both programs go here: http://thomasdevaney.blogspot.com/ Poet's House: http://www.poetshouse.org/progcoming.htm#october Also at some point in November there is going to be a book party for my new book A Series of Small Boxes (Fish Drum) in NYC, details TBA. For information about A Series of Small Boxes: http://www.spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=9781929495115 -Thomas Devaney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:05:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: Joanne Kyger at Bates College Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Joanne Kyger reads at 4:15 in the Benjamin Mays Center at Bates College (Lewiston, Maine), on Tuesday 2 October. Joanne Kyger's Bates visit is one stop on a Maine tour to celebrate the publication of her Collected Poems (About Now, Orono: NPF, 2007), a major event in American letters. Come out for an intimate afternoon with one of the great poets of our times. Joanne Kyger=20 2 October 4:15 pm=20 Benjamin Mays Center (95 Russell Street, the "Silo") Legendary poet Joanne Kyger makes a rare East Coast appearance. For decades, Joanne Kyger has played a crucial role in California's poetry scene. Her poetry has been influenced by her studies in Zen Buddhism and her connection to the poets of Black Mountain, the San Francisco Renaissance, and the Beat Generation. Ron Silliman describes Kyger's poetr= y as a point of convergence for all "post-avant" literary tendencies the late= r half of the 20th Century: "You can hear her influence everywhere, from Naropa, to the later generations of the New York School, to Language poetry= . Get a fix on Joanne Kyger and a half century of American poetry suddenly comes clearly into focus." "She is," writes Ben Friedlander, "one of the finest practioners of the art of poetry conceived (after Whitman and Williams, among others) as the preservation of experience in language. The scale of Kyger=B9s poetry is human existence; spoken language provides its measure; the animating force is curiosity. Out of these materials she has accomplished something magnificent and beautiful. She has many peers but n= o betters." Kyger's Bates event is part of a Maine tour celebrating the publication of her collected poems, About Now (798 pages; Orono, ME: National Poetry Foundation, 2007). A Q&A will follow the reading. The reading is free and open to the public. Sponsored by the Environmental Studies Program at Bates College. For more info contact To read Ron Silliman=B9s review of About Now, which he calls =B3one of the grea= t books of this or any year,=B2 point your browser here: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2007/07/in-1957-23-year-old-joanne-kyger.ht= m l=20 For a video of Kyger reading recently on the West Coast, visit the UC Berkeley Lunch Poems website: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/event_details.php?webcastid=3D19239 To hear some audio excerpts from Joanne Kyger=B9s fall 2000 reading at UMaine= , visit the National Poetry Foundation=B9s new website here: http://www.nationalpoetryfoundation.org/multimedia/ Many more Kyger materials to explore at the Electronic Poetry Center: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/kyger/ (Thanks to Steve Evans for compiling these links.)=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:45:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Thanks for the thoughtful responses...I compiled on Joe Brainard's Pyjamas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all who gave thoughtful responses to my question about misogynistic or offensive pop lyrics....I posted all the responses I could keep track of on my blog....http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/....and if I didn't ask permission and you don't want it posted just let me know and I'll delete ya...on the other hand if I missed ya, please send and I'll put ya up....I deleted everyone's email address from their responses of course for privacy and I apologize that I did not know the names of some of the respondents in which case I usually used initials or whatever was available.... I found the ambivalence interesting...especially interesting when people felt love for a song they knew had indefensible sentiments but was still great art....happens all the time... suffering makes for great singing or sanging......sangfroid rarely gets you anywhere in music... Also on the Pyjamas, Ronald Johnson's elegy on Lady Di and some thoughts on Running with Scissors....and the usual appeal for work as JBP is now a blogazine...feel free to contribute...genre-traitors especially welcome... amities. bill ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:42:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ana Bozicevic-Bowling Subject: This Thursday in NYC: Dolin, Lin, Hav, Gabbert, Starkweather, Peters In-Reply-To: <1191285252.012530.223740@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline A reading sponsored by RealPoetik magazine on Thursday, October 4, 2007 at = 8 pm. Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, between Houston and Bleecker. $8. +++ RealPoetik is the oldest and most active little magazine on the internet, publishing established & emerging poets since '96. Again we are Real in NYC with SHARON DOLIN TAO LIN NIELS HAV ELISA GABBERT SAMPSON STARKWEATHER & CAROL PETERS!!! Hosted by Editors Ana Bozicevic-Bowling & Caroline Conway +++ Sharon Dolin is the author of three books of poems: Realm of the Possible (Four Way Books, 2004), Serious Pink (Marsh Hawk Press, 2003), and Heart Work (The Sheep Meadow Press, 1995), as well as five poetry chapbooks. Her latest book, Burn and Dodge, is the winner of the Donald Hall Prize in Poetry and forthcoming from the University of Pittsburgh Press. Dolin is Poet-in-Residence at Eugene Lang College, The New School for Liberal Arts. She directs The Center for Book Arts Annual Letterpress Poetry Chapbook Competition and is a Curator for their Broadsides Reading Series. Tao Lin is the author of a novel, EEEEE EEE EEEE, a story-collection, BED, and a poetry-collection, YOU ARE A LITTLE BIT HAPPIER THAN I AM. Melville House will publish his second poetry-collection, COGNITIVE- BEHAVIORAL THERAPY, in 2008. Niels Hav is a Danish poet and short story writer living in Copenhagen with his wife, concert pianist Christina Bj=F8rk=F8e. His new collection of poetry We Are Here is published by Book Thug, Toronto (books@bookthug.ca), and a selection of his poetry from the early years, God's Blue Morris, was published in Canada in 1992. He is the author of five collections of poetry and three of short fiction. Elisa Gabbert is an editor of Absent. Her recent poems have appeared or will appear in Pleiades, Cannibal, and LIT. A chapbook, Thanks for Sending the Engine , is available from Kitchen Press, and a book of collaborative poems written with Kathleen Rooney, That Tiny Insane Voluptuousness, is forthcoming from Otoliths Books. Sampson Starkweather's poems and essays have recently appeared or are forthcoming in LIT, Octopus Magazine, jubilat, New York Quarterly, and many other publications. He lives in the woods alone. Carol Peters writes poetry and teaches creative writing. Her chapbook, Muddy Prints, Water Shine, will be published in the 2007 New Women's Voices Series by Finishing Line Press out of Georgetown, Kentucky. Carol's work has appeared in Cairn, Pembroke Magazine , miPOradio, Pebble Lake Review, Bamboo Ridge, Ink Pot , Ink Burns, and the anthology Always on Friday. She divides her time between Charleston, SC and Hakalau, HI and blogs at http://carolpeters.blogspot.com . ~ Frequent www.realpoetik.blogspot.com for poems; www.realpoetikblog.blogspot.com for news! --=20 http://quoileternite.blogspot.com/ Blog http://realpoetik.blogspot.com/ Magazine http://womenoftheweb.blogspot.com/ Interview ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 17:57:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <154308.55461.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Can=B9t speak for anyone but myself. I was hoping that I=B9d find a lot of song titles which would remind me of bunches of old songs. . . Like with the movie directors =B3thread=B2. But I didn=B9t. Alas. It=B9s easy to set back an =ADism. Any =ADism. I assumed it was asked in fun. Diane From: Stephen Vincent Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:16:12 -0700 To: Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song eve= r "set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of publicity = - perhaps?? =20 Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. =20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 21:14:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? In-Reply-To: <1191270344l.1913000l.0l@psu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit yes, I remember when I was a wee one listening to Tears on My Pillow by the Everly Bros. & singing "tempahasafate," & wondering what that meant. Years later I discovered the line is "tempt the hands of fate." Tears on my pillow for that one! On 10/1/07 4:25 PM, "ALDON L NIELSEN" wrote: > "Our D-I-V-O-R-C-E > becomes final today." > > also a Tammy Wynette song -- > > Years ago I rescued a Bob Marley song for a friend -- When somebody started > playing "No Woman No Cry" she said the song bothered her -- turned out she > thought he was saying that if you don't "have" a woman you won't cry. (Guess > she hadn't listened to any of the song's verses.) -- I explained something > about Jamaican grammar to her, and she loved the song from then on -- But how > many of us have found ourselves humming a song only to realize with horror > what > the lyrics actually say? > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 02:24 PM, linda norton wrote: > >> In the Times yesterday there was an interesting discussion about the > prevalence >> of men in the blogosphere; and since, Stephen, you note the mostly male >> responses to a question females might also answer, I'll chime in. >> >> It's true that I don't really think songs can "set feminism back" >> (unless it's the Supreme Court that's singing). There are plenty of >> songs that remind us how far we still have to go. Since music deals with >> primitive stuff, and that's what I like about it, I don't need it to actively >> reflect my politics at all times (I look for that in the political >> sphere). >> >> Yes, Billie Holiday sang those abject lyrics ("Two or three girls has >> he/that he likes as well as me/but I love him//I don't know why I should/He >> isn't true/He beats me, too"); she also talked during some of those >> same recording sessions about wanting to set off a stink bomb at some >> motherf'rs house. What poet can't relate to that range? >> >> I love Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" and I also love her song >> "I Don't Wanna Play House": >> >> I don't wanna play house >> I know it can't be fun >> I watched Mommy and Daddy >> And if that's the way it's done >> I don't wanna play house >> >> James Brown's "It's a Man's World" tells a truth. So does >> "Think" by Sister Lyn Collins, the Female Preacher. I like the >> refrain of Rob Base's "It Takes Two". >> >> George Jones's "The Cold Hard Truth" might be a boon for feminism, if >> feminism benefits from men reckoning with truth. >> >> A friend gave me a Peter Tosh album because she couldn't stand the misogyny >> of >> the lyrics. Although I share her politics, she knew that for me the music >> would >> trump the lyrics. >> >> I have often thought, since having a child, that many love songs sung by >> women >> are actually about the true love women feel for their children--a love that >> sometimes displaces men. You could make a mix tape for a baby shower with >> songs >> like Aretha's "You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman" and so on. >> Which reminds me of Toni Morrison's remark, "A man is just a man, but a >> son, now that's somebody." >> >> If a song can set feminism back, can a song set us free? Queen Latifah was a >> powerful antidote to mysogyny in rap and so is Missy Elliot. But when it >> comes >> to setbacks I am still fixated on those Supremes in black robes . . . >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Stephen Vincent >>> Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:16 AM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? >>> >>> Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women >> on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song ever >> "set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of >> publicity - perhaps?? >>> >>> Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic >> favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. >>> >>> Stephen V >>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>> >> >> >> Linda Norton >> >> NEW WORK (words and images) at >> >> http://www.counterpathpress.org/cpathonline/issue%202/splash2.html >> >> >> (When you get there, click on the title of the essay, and keep clicking on >> NEXT as you get to the bottom of each page.) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/about.html >> >> >> >> >> > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:25:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? In-Reply-To: <1191270344l.1913000l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed My theory of pop song lyrics is that they are aesthetically the best when they are most largely open to interpretation while incorporating enough stock imagery, intertextuality, and at least partially unintelligible. there's also sorts of obnoxious bullshit in wagner, in TS Eliot, in shakespeare, in picasso but we tend to let it slide where it comes to our aesthetic experience because that's High Culture. you want to talk objectification of women, take a look at Georgia O'Keefe some time and really think what all those flower-vaginas and skulls and deserts are saying about the female body. But that's too hard, so instead we go after the low hanging fruit of pop music because pop music is "trash." it's largely made and consumed by the uneducated. it's cheap. its lacking in apparent complexity. and that's precisely the reason that criticism of it from some standpoint of critical theory, no matter whether its marxist, feminist, queer, psychoanalytic, deconstructive, or whatever, is bollocks. Pop music is not primitive nor is it childish low or untutored. What it is is the vigorous extension of the parellel hybridizing folk traditions of anglo/latin culture. It's often complex, mysterious, moving, and seemingly born ex nihilo from the collective unconscious in its raw character. It's good not because it tells us what we should be, or what we are, but what we wish we were when we aren't thinking about it too hard. So picking it to pieces and analyzing it in the language of politics and theory and all of that misses the point completely, and in the end says nothing about it. Can I say that ludicris is a misogynist? yes. He must be to talk about women like that. can i say that Chicken & Beer is misogynistic or that it supports a wider cultural misogyny? no, such statements are meaningless because they have no criteria against which we can test the accuracy of their application. You talk like that about crunk and you have no ground to stand on. Chicken & Beer is a good record though. no matter what kind of idiot its maker was. On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > "Our D-I-V-O-R-C-E > becomes final today." > > also a Tammy Wynette song -- > > Years ago I rescued a Bob Marley song for a friend -- When somebody started > playing "No Woman No Cry" she said the song bothered her -- turned out she > thought he was saying that if you don't "have" a woman you won't cry. (Guess > she hadn't listened to any of the song's verses.) -- I explained something > about Jamaican grammar to her, and she loved the song from then on -- But how > many of us have found ourselves humming a song only to realize with horror what > the lyrics actually say? > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 02:24 PM, linda norton wrote: > >> In the Times yesterday there was an interesting discussion about the > prevalence >> of men in the blogosphere; and since, Stephen, you note the mostly male >> responses to a question females might also answer, I'll chime in. >> >> It's true that I don't really think songs can "set feminism back" >> (unless it's the Supreme Court that's singing). There are plenty of >> songs that remind us how far we still have to go. Since music deals with >> primitive stuff, and that's what I like about it, I don't need it to actively >> reflect my politics at all times (I look for that in the political >> sphere). >> >> Yes, Billie Holiday sang those abject lyrics ("Two or three girls has >> he/that he likes as well as me/but I love him//I don't know why I should/He >> isn't true/He beats me, too"); she also talked during some of those >> same recording sessions about wanting to set off a stink bomb at some >> motherf'rs house. What poet can't relate to that range? >> >> I love Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" and I also love her song >> "I Don't Wanna Play House": >> >> I don't wanna play house >> I know it can't be fun >> I watched Mommy and Daddy >> And if that's the way it's done >> I don't wanna play house >> >> James Brown's "It's a Man's World" tells a truth. So does >> "Think" by Sister Lyn Collins, the Female Preacher. I like the >> refrain of Rob Base's "It Takes Two". >> >> George Jones's "The Cold Hard Truth" might be a boon for feminism, if >> feminism benefits from men reckoning with truth. >> >> A friend gave me a Peter Tosh album because she couldn't stand the misogyny of >> the lyrics. Although I share her politics, she knew that for me the music would >> trump the lyrics. >> >> I have often thought, since having a child, that many love songs sung by women >> are actually about the true love women feel for their children--a love that >> sometimes displaces men. You could make a mix tape for a baby shower with songs >> like Aretha's "You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman" and so on. >> Which reminds me of Toni Morrison's remark, "A man is just a man, but a >> son, now that's somebody." >> >> If a song can set feminism back, can a song set us free? Queen Latifah was a >> powerful antidote to mysogyny in rap and so is Missy Elliot. But when it comes >> to setbacks I am still fixated on those Supremes in black robes . . . >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Stephen Vincent >>> Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:16 AM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? >>> >>> Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women >> on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song ever >> "set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of >> publicity - perhaps?? >>> >>> Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic >> favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. >>> >>> Stephen V >>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>> >> >> >> Linda Norton >> >> NEW WORK (words and images) at >> >> http://www.counterpathpress.org/cpathonline/issue%202/splash2.html >> >> >> (When you get there, click on the title of the essay, and keep clicking on >> NEXT as you get to the bottom of each page.) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/about.html >> >> >> >> >> > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 00:37:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: Reminder: This Friday OCT. 5th, at The KGB BAR, NYC Comments: To: lit-events@yahoogroups.com, poetswearprada@yahoogroups.com, NYCWriters@yahoogroups.com, "newyorkcitywriters@yahoogroups.com" , Charles Blackstone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Mad Hatters' Review Poetry, Prose, & Anything Goes Reading Series will present *IRA COHEN*, *STEPHANIE STRICKLAND*, and *LYNDA SCHOR*, Friday, *October 5th*, 7-9 pm. The Bar is at 85 E 4th Street, between Bowery and 2nd Avenue. For details, please proceed to our EVENTSpage. And save the date, Saturday, *October 13th*, 8 pm, Williamsburg Art & Historical Society: Heard Words with Music, featuring writers Eric Darton, Urayoan Noel, Carol Novack, Elizabeth Smith, and musician/composer Peter Knoll; also a film by Orin Buck, based on a poem by Carol Novack. And lots more. Detailed announcement coming. MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com KEEP THE MAD HATTERS ALIVE! MAKE A TAX DEDUCTIBLE DONATION HERE: https://www.fracturedatlas.org/site/contribute/donate/580 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 23:00:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anybody mentioned the Pretenders (Chrissy Hynde) song, with the lyrics, He hit me with his belt, but his tears were all I felt. When I heard my baby cry, I knew that he loved me. or also in that song, how do you take lyrics like When you try and cut me down and push me back if I attack your attitude I rise up to the challenge 'cause I like to taste the sugar of your violent mood It's tough to know what to think about songs that=20 feel so real, yet so horrible. I mean, I'm not=20 sure we should read all songs as making a=20 statement, feminist or anti-feminist, rather=20 perhaps telling stories, some of which are true,=20 or the emotional content of which could be true.=20 I certainly wouldn't want to censor such songs,=20 yet they can be nearly impossible to listen to. charles At 05:57 PM 10/1/2007, Diane DiPrima wrote: >Can=B9t speak for anyone but myself. I was hoping that I=B9d find a lot of= song >titles which would remind me of bunches of old songs. . . Like with the >movie directors =B3thread=B2. But I didn=B9t. Alas. > >It=B9s easy to set back an =ADism. Any =ADism. I assumed it was asked in= fun. > >Diane > > > >From: Stephen Vincent >Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " > >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:16:12 -0700 >To: >Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? > >Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women >on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song= ever >"set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of publicity = - >perhaps?? > > Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic favorite of >many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then Chax Press 520-620-1626 (studio) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com chax.org 650 E. 9th St. Tucson, AZ 85705 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:25:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Buffluxus, MacLow, Williams, etc :: Buffalo, October 13th Comments: To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com, spidertangle@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline if you live in or near buffalo, please come out to the burchfield-penny arts center. it'll be fun, swear to god. and, excuse the cross-posting Saturday, October 13, 2007 Buffluxus Performance at 2:00 p.m. Buffluxus is a performance ensemble composed of musicians and aural artists that realizes verbo-visual sound poetry and Fluxus and sound events. Based in Buffalo, the ensemble has presented original and traditional experimental works for more than twenty years.Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun, Tony Arnold will be featured. The Works of Emmet Williams Emmett Williams was one of the most long lived artists associated with the Fluxus movement. As an artist and poet, Williams collaborated with Daniel Spoerrri n the Darmstadt Circle of Concrete Poetry from 1957 to 1959. In the 1960s, Williams was the European coordinator of Fluxus and a founding member of the Domaine Poetique in Paris. He was a pioneer of Concrete Poetry, a fusing of visual, literary and musical practices into a verbal-voco-art form. While working with fellow Fluxus artist Dick Higgins at something Else Press Williams edited, An Anthology of Concrete Poetry. Featured Works Cellar Song (1962) Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun, Tony Arnold Voice Piece for LaMonte Young (1962) Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun, Tony Arnold Alphabet Symphony (1962) Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun, Tony Arnold Four-Directional Song of Doubt for Five Voices (1957) Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun, Tony Arnold Duet (1964) Ho Eui Bewlay, Michael Colquhoun Song of Uncertain Length (1960) Kevin Thurston Vocal struggle for Dick Higgins (1963) Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston The Last French-Fried Potato Ho Eui Bewlay, Tony Arnold Saturday, October 13, 2007 at 5:00 p.m. Spoken Music Spoken Music is concert of works by Dick Higgins, Allyson Knowles, Michael Basinski, and Jackson MacLow. Spoken Music refers to text based works by artists and poets that are both visual and sonic and are often called concrete poetry or visual poetry. These texts become musical notations which are used by performers to present sound pieces in the same spirit as a musical composition. Featured Works Wool Hat (1980) Jackson MacLow Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun A House of Dust (1972) Allyson Knowles Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun, Tony Arnold Eeohdeepey (1985) Michael Basinski Michael Basinski, Michael Colquhoun, Don Metz A Vocabulary for Sharon (Belle) Mattlin (1973) Jackson Mac Low Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun, Tony Arnold Referred to in the Text as Mule Car (1978) Michael Basinski Michael Basinski, Michael Colquhoun, Kevin Thurston Fungini (1983) Michael Basinski Michael Basinski, Don Metz, Kevin Thurston, Danger Music #17 (1962) Dick Higgins Michael Basinski, Ho Eui Bewlay, Kevin Thurston, Michael Colquhoun, Tony Arnold -- author of How to Irritate Friends & Isolate People http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:10:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Louise Gluck is the Ann Coulter of poetry, or Ann Coulter is the Louise Gluck of politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Both of these women have annoyed me for many years, but watching the news this morning, and seeing Coulter interviewed (I seem to like to torture myself by listening to this woman who claims vegetarians should be force-fed meat, etc., etc.,) the similarity between the two suddenly came a little clearer. Ann Coulter likes to wag a very large cleaver at women who would dare suggest that they own their own bodies and have a right to an abortion. She also likes to say she's a staunch Christian who upholds the high moral standards which created this great nation, etc., etc., blah blah bliddy blah blah blah. She'll go on a dark rampage for as much time as a reporter will allow her about women who think they're better than the great gray men who wrote the bible. Yet Coulter, even this morning at 7 a.m., dresses like a bucket of sex! She would give the hottest Biblical prostitute a run for her hard earned cash. I'm not knocking it! She looks good! Some would say she looks great! This morning she was wearing the type of mini skirt I recall hearing as a kid my mother explain to her slutty and marvelous girlfriends that the hem needs to be closer to the pussy than the knee to be considered a bona fide mini skirt, which my mother always wore. Coulter's skirt was mini and there's no denying it. And boots right out of an S&M porno. She's spicy, she's a freaky mountain of peach and she LIKES it like that! And frankly, hey, that's cool! Go for it Ann! However, needless to say, the costume contradicts the message of the foremothers she claims to have so much in common with. (Gay Republicans (which there are more of than ever before!) LOVE her like no one else. But then again, of course they do, these knuckleheads are living the same kind of contradictory existence that she is!) The VERY FACT that she is a woman who fearlessly lives her life in her body at 7 in the fricken morning on national television exactly how she wants to is awesome, but it's also entirely owed to the very trouble-making women who have challenged the very powers she claims to walk behind. She's an idiot in the end. Just like Dr. Laura tells mothers to stay at home and take care of their children, yet is on the air to do so, leaving her own children at home with a baby-sitter. For many of the same reasons Louise Gluck has always irritated me. She's NOT a poet whose work I have found particularly interesting, but I have had friends who think she's a genius. I even got talked into hearing her read in New York where she trashed Ginsberg, saying he'll be a mere footnote to the history of poetry in a hundred years. Getting a glimpse of Gluck in action made me very interested in her. At the time (this is some years ago) she had a poem called MOCK ORANGE which had the flavor of admitting she hates sex. Gluck likes to use the word asshole, and appropriates other language which she feels is edgy, and cool, but does it so she can tell you how dirty you are for liking your asshole. She is in effect turning the clock back and making women in particular feel good about feeling that modesty is a form of courage, and that those who have given themselves permission to like their bodies in their entirety are dirty filthy scum. No wonder Gluck hates Ginsberg so much. No wonder she thinks Mark Strand is Jesus Christ. Oh my god, I live for the day when I meet her and tell her how I've been watching what she does, and how I believe she's not worthy of the language she uses to abhor the body. Using the language of Ginsberg to be cool, then turning a gun on him on stage to say he's going to vanish if she has anything to do with it. She needs to lighten up of course. She needs to have Mark Strand recite Ginsberg's PLEASE MASTER poem while she beats him and reaches for the strap-on. My mother and her slutty friends were actually pretty fucking cool in a lot of ways. They learned the value of their own judgments, they learned the taste of their own appetites, they lived and lived and LIVED passionate, full young lives. There are a LOT of women from my mother's generation I meet who have lifted themselves, mind, body, and all of it, over the heads of the oppressive ideals of the nagging, crabby old men who fear ever second of their lives for the world they were promised was their own to have, and to have alone. The danger of Ann Coulter and Louise Gluck is that they both want to be empowered by the ass kicking women who made their style, and gave them the freedom of their language, but at the same time want those women to be ashamed of themselves, and any other woman who would want to be so bold today. Just a little instant bitchy essay for the morning, CAConrad 9 poets 9 cities: http://9poets9cities.blogspot.com The PhillySound: http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:24:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <001d01c80438$27f02b70$6400a8c0@Janus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's been years since I've looked at mail in this box every day (or even every week), so I could easily have missed someone else making either the macro or micro point I've got here, so I apologize if I'm being redundant. But, first, the relationship between any of the popular cultures and the greater society at large is so complicated in so many ways, both wrong and right, that to focus so narrowly on a single issue like sexism becomes a parody of identity politics, not unlike the stereotypic Jewish grandmother reading about a hugely fatal earthquake in a foreign country asking how many Jews died. The question isn't exactly wrong, but it misses so much of what needs to be said that it's kind of, you know, weird. That said, I really don't see how the Pat Benatar song below can be be heard as anti-feminist. The relationship described seems entirely consensual, the narrator posits it as a relation between equals, and as cited, there are absolutely no gendered pronouns. I'm not in the academic or political businesses, so I may not understand the current positions and readings of such texts, but does every feminist relationship have to be a strictly vanilla heterosexual one these days? This reading seems kind of, you know, weird. J. Michael Mollohan wrote: > Pat Benetar > > Hit me with your best shot > Well youre the real tough cookie with the long history > Of breaking little hearts, like the one in me > Thats o.k., lets see how you do it > Put up your dukes, lets get down to it! > Hit me with your best shot! > Why dont you hit me with your best shot! > Hit me with your best shot! > Fire away! > > You come on with a come on, you dont fight fair > But thats o.k., see if I care! > Knock me down, its all in vain > Ill get right back on my feet again! > > Hit me with your best shot! > Why dont you hit me with your best shot! > Hit me with your best shot! > Fire away! > > Well youre the real tough cookie with the long history > Of breaking little hearts, like the one in me > Before I put another notch in my lipstick case > You better make sure you put me in my place > > Hit me with your best shot! > Come on, hit me with your best shot! > Hit me with your best shot! > Fire away! > > Hit me with your best shot! > Why dont you hit me with your best shot! > Hit me with your best shot! > Fire away! > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:36:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Job: Creative Nonfiction/Poetry, Columbia College Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Feel free to forward this to anyone who might be interested. Thanks-- Best, Tony **************************************** TENURE-TRACK FACULTY Creative Writing The English Department at Columbia College Chicago seeks a nonfiction writer, with a strong secondary interest in poetry, for a tenure-track creative writing faculty position, to begin Fall 2008. Successful candidate must have a terminal degree, minimum of one book of nonfiction from press of national standing, and significant poetry publications; deep commitment to teaching writing at all levels; and a desire to participate in, and help shape, an emerging nonfiction program. Successful candidate will teach core courses in the creative writing nonfiction and poetry programs. Interviews at MLA. Review of applications will begin Nov. 1. Please send letter of application and c.v. to: David Lazar, Chair, Creative Writing Search Committee Department of English, Columbia College Chicago 600 South Michigan Ave., Chicago, IL 60605-1996 Columbia College Chicago (CCC) is an urban institution of over 11,500 undergraduate and graduate students, emphasizing arts, media, and communications in a liberal arts setting. Columbia College Chicago encourages qualified female, GLBT, disabled, international and minority classified individuals to apply for all positions. We offer a competitive salary and an excellent benefits package. No phone calls, please. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Duggan Subject: Re: boston In-Reply-To: <38848.32059.qm@web32513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks for the info, Aaron. I also edit Idiolexicon.com, by the way, feel free to check it out. We're having a minor technical issue at the moment, but the site should be back in full swing soon. Patrick On 9/30/07, aaron tieger wrote: > > Hi Patrick, > > I've just moved back here too. In addition to Ruth and Mairead's > suggestions, > you can keep abreast of what's going on in town here: > > http://bostonpoetry.blogspot.com > > As far as small presses, there's Katalanche Press (Cambridge), Pressed > Wafer > (Boston), Bootstrap Productions (Lowell), CARVE Poems (various sofas in > Greater > Boston), and at least several others. > > Welcome back. > > Aaron > > >>Hi everyone, > > I just moved back to Boston this month from San Francisco, where I did my > MFA, and I was wondering if anyone on this wonderful listserv of ours knew > any interesting reading series, any good places to finds lists of lectures > and readings, and good small presses, any workshops or salons, etc. in the > city. I lived in Boston years and years ago when I was in college, but I > wasn't the invested poet that I am now. I've heard of Grub Street, but > that's about it. > > Thanks! > > Patrick > > aarontieger.blogspot.com > carvepoems.org > soonproductions.org > > "Make a sudden, destructive unpredictable action; incorporate." (Brian > Eno) > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:41:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Duggan Subject: Re: Boston In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks for all of the information! On 9/29/07, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > check out demolicious series (google it) & P.A.'s Lounge in Somerville & > The > Plough & The Stars bar/rest series. new series in south boston at The > Distillery. > > > On 9/29/07 2:07 PM, "Susan R. Williamson" > wrote: > > > At 02:48 PM 9/28/2007, you wrote: > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> I just moved back to Boston this month from San Francisco, where I did > my > >> MFA, and I was wondering if anyone on this wonderful listserv of ours > knew > >> any interesting reading series, any good places to finds lists of > lectures > >> and readings, and good small presses, any workshops or salons, etc. in > the > >> city. I lived in Boston years and years ago when I was in college, but > I > >> wasn't the invested poet that I am now. I've heard of Grub Street, but > >> that's about it. > > Hi Patrick, > > I'm not from Boston, but a good place to start is: > > http://www.poets.org/state.php/varState/MA > > Academy of American Poets, by state and by city ... > > best, > > Susan > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 06:47:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Flying Saucers over the West Wing of the White House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i don't remember i don't remember i only spoke to one administration one mom one dad i keep pointing i keep wanting them to stop i had no use for language i didn't ask for peace i got used to the sight of mom screaming stop ORANGE BLUE RED which code keeps responding? last night it was kind of spooky when the ambulance came --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline this poem was found in some old papers in the back of a used book can a poem reach the other shore? the photo of wheat grass flashes in the sun as though hiding from shadow in the strong wind, the grass bends but its long feathered tops don't touch the ground. identity is like this, it will bend as flax in smoke but as a feathered thing the ground always eludes it. thank you for your letter. from this day until my last i will pray for you. -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:31:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "Sal Paradise at Fifty" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An amazing piece from a conservative columnist: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/opinion/02brooks.html?_r=3D1&hp&oref=3D= slogin -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:41:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: FROM field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: Louise Gluck is the Ann Coulter of poetry, or Ann Coulter is the Louise Gluck of politics Comments: To: =@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: CA Conrad =0ATo: = POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, October 2, 2007 6:10:19 AM=0A= Subject: Louise Gluck is the Ann Coulter of poetry, or Ann Coulter is the L= ouise Gluck of politics=0A=0A...She (Louise Gluck) needs to lighten up of c= ourse. She needs to have Mark Strand recite=0AGinsberg's PLEASE MASTER poe= m while she beats him and reaches for the=0Astrap-on...=0A=0A&=0A=0A(Ann Co= ulter ) ...She's spicy, she's a freaky mountain of peach and she LIKES it l= ike that!...=0A=0AIsn't this the kind of imagery we crave first thing in th= e morning from this list? What a hoot!=0A=0AThanks C.A. and viva Ginsberg!= =0A=0APaul Nelson=0ASlaughter, WA=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:45:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Boston In-Reply-To: <34bace050710020641r58b673bfs34218b497ad2d26@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just a note to say, Bostonians, please welcome Patrick Duggan with open arms. He is one of the good ones and we miss him already back here in San Francisco. Kevin K. > Thanks for all of the information! > > On 9/29/07, Ruth Lepson wrote: >> >> check out demolicious series (google it) & P.A.'s Lounge in Somerville & >> The >> Plough & The Stars bar/rest series. new series in south boston at The >> Distillery. >> >> >> On 9/29/07 2:07 PM, "Susan R. Williamson" >> wrote: >> >> > At 02:48 PM 9/28/2007, you wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> >> >> I just moved back to Boston this month from San Francisco, where I >> did >> my >> >> MFA, and I was wondering if anyone on this wonderful listserv of ours >> knew >> >> any interesting reading series, any good places to finds lists of >> lectures >> >> and readings, and good small presses, any workshops or salons, etc. >> in >> the >> >> city. I lived in Boston years and years ago when I was in college, >> but >> I >> >> wasn't the invested poet that I am now. I've heard of Grub Street, >> but >> >> that's about it. >> > Hi Patrick, >> > I'm not from Boston, but a good place to start is: >> > http://www.poets.org/state.php/varState/MA >> > Academy of American Poets, by state and by city ... >> > best, >> > Susan >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:51:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: john cage, kathy acker, me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed john cage, kathy acker, me http://www.asondheim.org/vox2.mp3 when worlds collide, john cage speaks up, he says, don't vote, no one should vote (in conversation), he's dead, he's still not voting when worlds collide, kathy acker speaks up, she says, he's crazy, say hello (in conversation) she's dead, she's on the move in paradise there's no me, no cage, no acker, there won't be either this isn't a poem but an explanation, of dead paradise, why no one's always right ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:04:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <470246AB.8080207@eskimo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Herb, There was an argument/discussion between Mark Wallace and me in The International Exchange for Poetic Invention blog about two weeks ago around a poem by Linh Dinh and a poem by Bernadette Meyer. It all started as responses to my text "On Skin," Mark and I reading these poems very differently, he talking about the male gaze (that all western erotic lyric poetry being infected by it and there basically broken, illegitimate) and me questinging the validity of a concept such as male gaze. Of course, in the thread here one is talking about this from a reverse angle, in terms of a female masochism. Here is the url for the site in case one is interested: http://poeticinvention.blogspot.com/ Ciao, Murat On 10/2/07, Herb Levy wrote: > > It's been years since I've looked at mail in this box every day (or even > every week), so I could easily have missed someone else making either > the macro or micro point I've got here, so I apologize if I'm being > redundant. > > But, first, the relationship between any of the popular cultures and the > greater society at large is so complicated in so many ways, both wrong > and right, that to focus so narrowly on a single issue like sexism > becomes a parody of identity politics, not unlike the stereotypic Jewish > grandmother reading about a hugely fatal earthquake in a foreign country > asking how many Jews died. The question isn't exactly wrong, but it > misses so much of what needs to be said that it's kind of, you know, > weird. > > That said, I really don't see how the Pat Benatar song below can be be > heard as anti-feminist. The relationship described seems entirely > consensual, the narrator posits it as a relation between equals, and as > cited, there are absolutely no gendered pronouns. > > I'm not in the academic or political businesses, so I may not understand > the current positions and readings of such texts, but does every > feminist relationship have to be a strictly vanilla heterosexual one > these days? This reading seems kind of, you know, weird. > > > > J. Michael Mollohan wrote: > > Pat Benetar > > > > Hit me with your best shot > > Well youre the real tough cookie with the long history > > Of breaking little hearts, like the one in me > > Thats o.k., lets see how you do it > > Put up your dukes, lets get down to it! > > Hit me with your best shot! > > Why dont you hit me with your best shot! > > Hit me with your best shot! > > Fire away! > > > > You come on with a come on, you dont fight fair > > But thats o.k., see if I care! > > Knock me down, its all in vain > > Ill get right back on my feet again! > > > > Hit me with your best shot! > > Why dont you hit me with your best shot! > > Hit me with your best shot! > > Fire away! > > > > Well youre the real tough cookie with the long history > > Of breaking little hearts, like the one in me > > Before I put another notch in my lipstick case > > You better make sure you put me in my place > > > > Hit me with your best shot! > > Come on, hit me with your best shot! > > Hit me with your best shot! > > Fire away! > > > > Hit me with your best shot! > > Why dont you hit me with your best shot! > > Hit me with your best shot! > > Fire away! > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:48:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Hersh/Iran attack/New Yorker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For urgent reading, go to http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/10/08/071008fa_fact_hersh for Sy Hersh's current New Yorker article on Cheney/Bush and Company's apparently intractable intention to make 'surgical strikes' on Iran and Syria. These folks apparently want to play the Mideast like an old-fashoned juke box. Bing-Bing-Bing. The consequences of such madness are beyond their concern or imagination. Unless they are just committed to infinite global mayhem. Such attacks - apart from being inevitably (more again) self-destructive of whatever remains of this 'democracy' - will drive gas prices through the ceiling. Does one have to wonder much why Chevron just bought back 15 billion dollars worth of its own shares? Are there any spines left in this 'roll-over we serve your terror, Mr. Bush,' Congress? Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:33:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: "Sal Paradise at Fifty" In-Reply-To: <001e01c80511$a90b92b0$0200a8c0@Weishaus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree, but years before I was an aging boomer, I thought that Kerouac's writing was touched with great sadness. Kerouac seemed to be a "broken angel." Just some thoughts. Mary Kasimor Joel Weishaus wrote: An amazing piece from a conservative columnist: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/opinion/02brooks.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin -Joel --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:25:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? Comments: To: Ruth Lepson In-Reply-To: C32713C2.CE32%ruthlepson@comcast.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Is that the same "Tears on My Pillow" that was an international hit for Little Anthony and the Imperials"? Starts: "You don't remember me, but I remember you." On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 09:14 PM, Ruth Lepson wrote: > yes, I remember when I was a wee one listening to Tears on My Pillow by the >Everly Bros. & singing "tempahasafate," & wondering what that >meant. Years >later I discovered the line is "tempt the hands of fate." Tears on my >pillow >for that one! > > >On 10/1/07 4:25 PM, "ALDON L NIELSEN" wrote: > >> "Our D-I-V-O-R-C-E >> becomes final today." >> >> also a Tammy Wynette song -- >> >> Years ago I rescued a Bob Marley song for a friend -- When somebody started >> playing "No Woman No Cry" she said the song bothered her -- >turned out she >> thought he was saying that if you don't "have" a woman you won't >cry. (Guess >> she hadn't listened to any of the song's verses.) -- I explained >something >> about Jamaican grammar to her, and she loved the song from then on -- But >how >> many of us have found ourselves humming a song only to realize with horror >> what >> the lyrics actually say? >> >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 02:24 PM, linda norton > wrote: >> >> In the Times yesterday there was an interesting discussion about the >> prevalence >> of men in the blogosphere; and since, Stephen, you note the mostly male >> responses to a question females might also answer, I'll chime in. >> >> It's true that I don't really think songs can "set feminism back" >> (unless it's the Supreme Court that's singing). There are plenty >of >> songs that remind us how far we still have to go. Since music deals with >> primitive stuff, and that's what I like about it, I don't need it to >actively >> reflect my politics at all times (I look for that in the political >> sphere). >> >> Yes, Billie Holiday sang those abject lyrics ("Two or three >girls has >> he/that he likes as well as me/but I love him//I don't know why I should/He >> isn't true/He beats me, too"); she also talked during some of >those >> same recording sessions about wanting to set off a stink bomb at some >> motherf'rs house. What poet can't relate to that range? >> >> I love Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" and I also love her >song >> "I Don't Wanna Play House": >> >> I don't wanna play house >> I know it can't be fun >> I watched Mommy and Daddy >> And if that's the way it's done >> I don't wanna play house >> >> James Brown's "It's a Man's World" tells a truth. So does >> "Think" by Sister Lyn Collins, the Female Preacher. I like the >> refrain of Rob Base's "It Takes Two". >> >> George Jones's "The Cold Hard Truth" might be a boon for >feminism, if >> feminism benefits from men reckoning with truth. >> >> A friend gave me a Peter Tosh album because she couldn't stand the misogyny >> of >> the lyrics. Although I share her politics, she knew that for me the music >> would >> trump the lyrics. >> >> I have often thought, since having a child, that many love songs sung by >> women >> are actually about the true love women feel for their children--a love that >> sometimes displaces men. You could make a mix tape for a baby shower with >> songs >> like Aretha's "You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman" and so on. >> Which reminds me of Toni Morrison's remark, "A man is just a man, but >a >> son, now that's somebody." >> >> If a song can set feminism back, can a song set us free? Queen Latifah was >a >> powerful antidote to mysogyny in rap and so is Missy Elliot. But when it >> comes >> to setbacks I am still fixated on those Supremes in black robes . . . >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Vincent >> Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:16 AM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? >> >> Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the women >> on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song >ever >> "set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of >> publicity - perhaps?? >> >> Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic >> favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. >> >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> >> >> Linda Norton >> >> NEW WORK (words and images) at >> >> http://www.counterpathpress.org/cpathonline/issue%202/splash2.html >> >> >> (When you get there, click on the title of the essay, and keep >clicking on >> NEXT as you get to the bottom of each page.) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/about.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <> >> >> We are enslaved by >> what makes us free -- intolerable >> paradox at the heart of speech. >> --Robert Kelly >> >> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >> >> Aldon L. Nielsen >> Kelly Professor of American Literature >> The Pennsylvania State University >> 116 Burrowes >> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >> >> (814) 865-0091 > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:59:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Louise Gluck is the Ann Coulter of poetry, or Ann Coulter is the Louise Gluck of politics In-Reply-To: <222317.80347.qm@web56909.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Careful. You're messing with my girl. Sorry, girls giggle. CA Conrad wrote: ----- Original Message ---- From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2007 6:10:19 AM Subject: Louise Gluck is the Ann Coulter of poetry, or Ann Coulter is the Louise Gluck of politics ...She (Louise Gluck) needs to lighten up of course. She needs to have Mark Strand recite Ginsberg's PLEASE MASTER poem while she beats him and reaches for the strap-on... & (Ann Coulter ) ...She's spicy, she's a freaky mountain of peach and she LIKES it like that!... Isn't this the kind of imagery we crave first thing in the morning from this list? What a hoot! Thanks C.A. and viva Ginsberg! Paul Nelson Slaughter, WA --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:30:00 -0500 Reply-To: bobbyb@uchicago.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobby Baird Subject: Emails for Norma Cole and Robert Dash? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Can anyone help me with email addresses for Norma Cole and Robert Dash? Thanks, RPB -- http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review/ http://www.digitalemunction.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:28:19 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: some Chaudiere Books activity (Ottawa, Winnipeg, etc) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Chaudiere Books, Ottawa's most beautiful literary publisher www.chaudierebooks.com www.chaudierebooks.blogspot.com (check out our facebook page!) 1) John Newlove book launch! Chaudiere Books and the ottawa international writers festival invite you to the launch of A Long Continual Argument: The Selected Poems of John Newlove, Sunday, October 21, 2007, 2pm, Library and Archives Canada, 395 Wellington Street, Ottawa http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2007/09/long-continual-argument-selected-poems.html http://www.writersfestival.org/ 2) Clare Latremouille at TREE! Clare Latremouille, author of the novel The Desmond Road Book of the Dead (2006) will be featured reader at the TREE Reading Series, Ottawa, on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 at 8pm; The Royal Oak II Pub (basement); 161 Laurier Avenue East. free; open set & featured reader. http://www.treereadingseries.ca/ http://www.chaudierebooks.com/desmond.html 3) Chaudiere at the ottawa small press book fair! Come visit our table at the ottawa small press book fair, Saturday, October 27, 2007 (noon to 5pm) at Jack Purcell Community Centre, Elgin Street at Jack Purcell Lane http://smallpressbookfair.blogspot.com/2007/09/ottawa-small-press-book-fair-fall-2007.html 4) Anne Le Dressay launch in Winnipeg! The launch of Anne Le Dressay's second poetry collection, Old Winter, on Monday, November 12, 2007 at 7pm at Mcnally Robinsons booksellers, Grant Park, Winnipeg. Info: rachelb@grant.mcnallyrobinson.ca why are we using so many exclamation points?!?!?!?!?! coming soon: Anne's Ottawa launch, & Vancouver, Regina + Edmonton launches for the John Newlove selected poems, as well as information/launches on There Is No Mountain: The Selected Poems of Andrew Suknaski check the Chaudiere Books blog for updates! yr publishers, rob + Jennifer -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:57:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Boston In-Reply-To: <5143.216.36.74.210.1191339923.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit yes, hi, patrick--I know your name somehow. welcome back to intensity. On 10/2/07 11:45 AM, "Kevin Killian" wrote: > Just a note to say, Bostonians, please welcome Patrick Duggan with open > arms. He is one of the good ones and we miss him already back here in San > Francisco. > > Kevin K. > > >> Thanks for all of the information! >> >> On 9/29/07, Ruth Lepson wrote: >>> >>> check out demolicious series (google it) & P.A.'s Lounge in Somerville & >>> The >>> Plough & The Stars bar/rest series. new series in south boston at The >>> Distillery. >>> >>> >>> On 9/29/07 2:07 PM, "Susan R. Williamson" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> At 02:48 PM 9/28/2007, you wrote: >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> I just moved back to Boston this month from San Francisco, where I >>> did >>> my >>>>> MFA, and I was wondering if anyone on this wonderful listserv of ours >>> knew >>>>> any interesting reading series, any good places to finds lists of >>> lectures >>>>> and readings, and good small presses, any workshops or salons, etc. >>> in >>> the >>>>> city. I lived in Boston years and years ago when I was in college, >>> but >>> I >>>>> wasn't the invested poet that I am now. I've heard of Grub Street, >>> but >>>>> that's about it. >>>> Hi Patrick, >>>> I'm not from Boston, but a good place to start is: >>>> http://www.poets.org/state.php/varState/MA >>>> Academy of American Poets, by state and by city ... >>>> best, >>>> Susan >>> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? Comments: To: ALDON L NIELSEN In-Reply-To: <1191345936l.1515604l.0l@psu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit uh, yes, but the E. Bros. must have recorded it, too... On 10/2/07 1:25 PM, "ALDON L NIELSEN" wrote: > Is that the same "Tears on My Pillow" that was an international hit for Little > Anthony and the Imperials"? Starts: "You don't remember me, but I remember > you." > > On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 09:14 PM, Ruth Lepson wrote: >> >> yes, I remember when I was a wee one listening to Tears on My Pillow by the >> Everly Bros. & singing "tempahasafate," & wondering what that >> meant. Years >> later I discovered the line is "tempt the hands of fate." Tears on my >> pillow >> for that one! >> >> >> On 10/1/07 4:25 PM, "ALDON L NIELSEN" wrote: >> >>> > "Our D-I-V-O-R-C-E >>> > becomes final today." >>> > >>> > also a Tammy Wynette song -- >>> > >>> > Years ago I rescued a Bob Marley song for a friend -- When somebody >>> started >>> > playing "No Woman No Cry" she said the song bothered her -- >> turned out she >>> > thought he was saying that if you don't "have" a woman you won't >> cry. (Guess >>> > she hadn't listened to any of the song's verses.) -- I explained >> something >>> > about Jamaican grammar to her, and she loved the song from then on -- But >> how >>> > many of us have found ourselves humming a song only to realize with horror >>> > what >>> > the lyrics actually say? >>> > >>> > On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 02:24 PM, linda norton >> wrote: >>> > >>> > In the Times yesterday there was an interesting discussion about the >>> > prevalence >>> > of men in the blogosphere; and since, Stephen, you note the mostly male >>> > responses to a question females might also answer, I'll chime in. >>> > >>> > It's true that I don't really think songs can "set feminism back" >>> > (unless it's the Supreme Court that's singing). There are plenty >> of >>> > songs that remind us how far we still have to go. Since music deals with >>> > primitive stuff, and that's what I like about it, I don't need it to >> actively >>> > reflect my politics at all times (I look for that in the political >>> > sphere). >>> > >>> > Yes, Billie Holiday sang those abject lyrics ("Two or three >> girls has >>> > he/that he likes as well as me/but I love him//I don't know why I >>> should/He >>> > isn't true/He beats me, too"); she also talked during some of >> those >>> > same recording sessions about wanting to set off a stink bomb at some >>> > motherf'rs house. What poet can't relate to that range? >>> > >>> > I love Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" and I also love her >> song >>> > "I Don't Wanna Play House": >>> > >>> > I don't wanna play house >>> > I know it can't be fun >>> > I watched Mommy and Daddy >>> > And if that's the way it's done >>> > I don't wanna play house >>> > >>> > James Brown's "It's a Man's World" tells a truth. So does >>> > "Think" by Sister Lyn Collins, the Female Preacher. I like the >>> > refrain of Rob Base's "It Takes Two". >>> > >>> > George Jones's "The Cold Hard Truth" might be a boon for >> feminism, if >>> > feminism benefits from men reckoning with truth. >>> > >>> > A friend gave me a Peter Tosh album because she couldn't stand the >>> misogyny >>> > of >>> > the lyrics. Although I share her politics, she knew that for me the music >>> > would >>> > trump the lyrics. >>> > >>> > I have often thought, since having a child, that many love songs sung by >>> > women >>> > are actually about the true love women feel for their children--a love >>> that >>> > sometimes displaces men. You could make a mix tape for a baby shower with >>> > songs >>> > like Aretha's "You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman" and so on. >>> > Which reminds me of Toni Morrison's remark, "A man is just a man, but >> a >>> > son, now that's somebody." >>> > >>> > If a song can set feminism back, can a song set us free? Queen Latifah was >> a >>> > powerful antidote to mysogyny in rap and so is Missy Elliot. But when it >>> > comes >>> > to setbacks I am still fixated on those Supremes in black robes . . . >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Stephen Vincent >>> > Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:16 AM >>> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> > Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? >>> > >>> > Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the >>> women >>> > on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song >> ever >>> > "set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of >>> > publicity - perhaps?? >>> > >>> > Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic >>> > favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. >>> > >>> > Stephen V >>> > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Linda Norton >>> > >>> > NEW WORK (words and images) at >>> > >>> > http://www.counterpathpress.org/cpathonline/issue%202/splash2.html >>> > >>> > >>> > (When you get there, click on the title of the essay, and keep >> clicking on >>> > NEXT as you get to the bottom of each page.) >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/about.html >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > <> >>> > >>> > We are enslaved by >>> > what makes us free -- intolerable >>> > paradox at the heart of speech. >>> > --Robert Kelly >>> > >>> > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>> > >>> > Aldon L. Nielsen >>> > Kelly Professor of American Literature >>> > The Pennsylvania State University >>> > 116 Burrowes >>> > University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>> > >>> > (814) 865-0091 >> >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:00:52 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: P Ganick Subject: new open blog group i've started a collection of texts (with a few newly composed of my own) that are basic text-only files written for an archiving aspect and a reader's aspect as well. they are short enough to be read in one sitting and long enough to engage a thread of ?logic?. ..... i am posting this to one mailing group with success and am offering it to the poetics list.... the site's address is: and it is a 'public' site. .... this site will be active for the months of october and november 2007 and texts can be sent to pganickz@gmail.com starting now. .... DO NOT SEND TO THE 'REPLY' ADDRESS. but rather to the gmail.com address. comcast is for pganick's group-membershuos and pganickz is for correspondence. the site will be moderated by peter ganick. send 'text-only' files for consideration. not too short not too long is a good length, i say this realizing it's a vague proscription. NO 'TEXT-ONLY WITH LINE BREAKS' files will be considered. .... please ask for clarification for submission guidelines before submitting if you are uncertain. .... the guidelines will evolve as the site evolves. i hope to hear from you soon. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:24:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: A note on feminism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This koan: an elephant walks in the living room, shits, and leaves. It's the woman's job to clean up the shit and put her house back in order: No one will do it if she doesn't, and she can't live w/ all that stinking elephant shit on the carpet. She applies herself to the task, and soon, the further she gets, the more achieved she feels. Self-esteem arises in her from this amazing experience of becoming efficient at cleaning up the elephant's shit. Then the elephant walks back in. What is feminism? Women here have been describing it as an "ism." Someone else assumes it is meaningless, but would he say, meaningless like Marxism. I have heard that some think feminism is an extenuation of religion. Men sympathetic to women's causes and plights are sympathetic because they like women. It seems increasingly that many women don't like women very much, that liking women is too obvious, that one has to pretend one doesn't notice us. There is no out and out acceptance of Feminism as necessary to humanism. Where I live (perhaps outside religion as most people where I live are), girls are liabilities -- openly complained of -- and boys assets. The futures for girls & women are limited to their physical assets, but even beauty is poor -- the pay is well below the livable rate for many women I know who work, resumes & experience go unregarded, housing costs are obscene, and contrary to the popular songs about the joy of and signs of love that come of hitting us ("if that ain't love, I don't know what is"), even non-feminists leave when he acts violently; by the same token, men have told me that they know only women with high incomes, and have rarely met the other kind of woman, the mother of daughters, who goes underpaid, her daughters who go underpaid, thin women who go underpaid, regardless of their educations, regardless even of Ivy-league educations, the unmarried who go underpaid, the women's sympathizers who go underpaid. Item: In 1999, my boyfriend abruptly blocked access to my car, when I tried to leave a restaurant without him -- we were in a disagreement over someone else's religious recovery, and he turned on me; he hoped there would be life and death stakes in this woman's life; she was the Jewish mother of two young daughters. I'd already known him to be a salesman who assigned dollar values to people's foreheads. I called the police, who interrogated me at my car. A year later, I had lost 20 needed pounds due to stress; the mother I had defended from my boyfriend's attitudes had taken to heroin; he had gained 10 pounds, complained of his spare tire, and awaited the birth of his male 9-pounder out another woman's oven -- she a non-college-educated non-feminist, who was out-earning us, who left him for violence within a few years. Anyway, it's this kind of "sex" that many women don't want to run the risk of going without. Thin women around here, the lucky ones, make $18 K for a full year at it. I swear, women are being paid by the pound! It's as if the collective mind believes that men will make up the difference in thin women's paychecks, as if it's an Us not an ism. Write a song about that. Do we poets know how to write songs? AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:39:43 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Komninos Zervos Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII the bridal waltz komninos zervos ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:24:22 -0700 Reply-To: linda norton Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: linda norton Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the songs with tears in them would make a good list poem. Here's a link to Pamela Z's song with found text (song titles beginning with "You" from the 1986 Phonolog). http://www.pamelaz.com/MP3s/PopTitlesYou.mp3 -----Original Message----- >From: Ruth Lepson >Sent: Oct 2, 2007 1:59 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? > >uh, yes, but the E. Bros. must have recorded it, too... > > >On 10/2/07 1:25 PM, "ALDON L NIELSEN" wrote: > >> Is that the same "Tears on My Pillow" that was an international hit for Little >> Anthony and the Imperials"? Starts: "You don't remember me, but I remember >> you." >> >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 09:14 PM, Ruth Lepson wrote: >>> >>> yes, I remember when I was a wee one listening to Tears on My Pillow by the >>> Everly Bros. & singing "tempahasafate," & wondering what that >>> meant. Years >>> later I discovered the line is "tempt the hands of fate." Tears on my >>> pillow >>> for that one! >>> >>> >>> On 10/1/07 4:25 PM, "ALDON L NIELSEN" wrote: >>> >>>> > "Our D-I-V-O-R-C-E >>>> > becomes final today." >>>> > >>>> > also a Tammy Wynette song -- >>>> > >>>> > Years ago I rescued a Bob Marley song for a friend -- When somebody >>>> started >>>> > playing "No Woman No Cry" she said the song bothered her -- >>> turned out she >>>> > thought he was saying that if you don't "have" a woman you won't >>> cry. (Guess >>>> > she hadn't listened to any of the song's verses.) -- I explained >>> something >>>> > about Jamaican grammar to her, and she loved the song from then on -- But >>> how >>>> > many of us have found ourselves humming a song only to realize with horror >>>> > what >>>> > the lyrics actually say? >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Oct 1, 2007 02:24 PM, linda norton >>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > In the Times yesterday there was an interesting discussion about the >>>> > prevalence >>>> > of men in the blogosphere; and since, Stephen, you note the mostly male >>>> > responses to a question females might also answer, I'll chime in. >>>> > >>>> > It's true that I don't really think songs can "set feminism back" >>>> > (unless it's the Supreme Court that's singing). There are plenty >>> of >>>> > songs that remind us how far we still have to go. Since music deals with >>>> > primitive stuff, and that's what I like about it, I don't need it to >>> actively >>>> > reflect my politics at all times (I look for that in the political >>>> > sphere). >>>> > >>>> > Yes, Billie Holiday sang those abject lyrics ("Two or three >>> girls has >>>> > he/that he likes as well as me/but I love him//I don't know why I >>>> should/He >>>> > isn't true/He beats me, too"); she also talked during some of >>> those >>>> > same recording sessions about wanting to set off a stink bomb at some >>>> > motherf'rs house. What poet can't relate to that range? >>>> > >>>> > I love Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" and I also love her >>> song >>>> > "I Don't Wanna Play House": >>>> > >>>> > I don't wanna play house >>>> > I know it can't be fun >>>> > I watched Mommy and Daddy >>>> > And if that's the way it's done >>>> > I don't wanna play house >>>> > >>>> > James Brown's "It's a Man's World" tells a truth. So does >>>> > "Think" by Sister Lyn Collins, the Female Preacher. I like the >>>> > refrain of Rob Base's "It Takes Two". >>>> > >>>> > George Jones's "The Cold Hard Truth" might be a boon for >>> feminism, if >>>> > feminism benefits from men reckoning with truth. >>>> > >>>> > A friend gave me a Peter Tosh album because she couldn't stand the >>>> misogyny >>>> > of >>>> > the lyrics. Although I share her politics, she knew that for me the music >>>> > would >>>> > trump the lyrics. >>>> > >>>> > I have often thought, since having a child, that many love songs sung by >>>> > women >>>> > are actually about the true love women feel for their children--a love >>>> that >>>> > sometimes displaces men. You could make a mix tape for a baby shower with >>>> > songs >>>> > like Aretha's "You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman" and so on. >>>> > Which reminds me of Toni Morrison's remark, "A man is just a man, but >>> a >>>> > son, now that's somebody." >>>> > >>>> > If a song can set feminism back, can a song set us free? Queen Latifah was >>> a >>>> > powerful antidote to mysogyny in rap and so is Missy Elliot. But when it >>>> > comes >>>> > to setbacks I am still fixated on those Supremes in black robes . . . >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: Stephen Vincent >>>> > Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:16 AM >>>> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> > Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back???? >>>> > >>>> > Judging by the 99% male response to the query, can we assume that the >>>> women >>>> > on this list - if there are more than a few left - don't think any song >>> ever >>>> > "set feminism back"? Negative publicity being the best form of >>>> > publicity - perhaps?? >>>> > >>>> > Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man" was probably the ironic >>>> > favorite of many of an ex-wife who was busy dumping her beau. >>>> > >>>> > Stephen V >>>> > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Linda Norton >>>> > >>>> > NEW WORK (words and images) at >>>> > >>>> > http://www.counterpathpress.org/cpathonline/issue%202/splash2.html >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > (When you get there, click on the title of the essay, and keep >>> clicking on >>>> > NEXT as you get to the bottom of each page.) >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/about.html >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > <> >>>> > >>>> > We are enslaved by >>>> > what makes us free -- intolerable >>>> > paradox at the heart of speech. >>>> > --Robert Kelly >>>> > >>>> > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>> > >>>> > Aldon L. Nielsen >>>> > Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>> > The Pennsylvania State University >>>> > 116 Burrowes >>>> > University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>> > >>>> > (814) 865-0091 >>> >>> >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> We are enslaved by >> what makes us free -- intolerable >> paradox at the heart of speech. >> --Robert Kelly >> >> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >> >> Aldon L. Nielsen >> Kelly Professor of American Literature >> The Pennsylvania State University >> 116 Burrowes >> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >> >> (814) 865-0091 >> >> >> Linda Norton NEW WORK (words and images) at http://www.counterpathpress.org/cpathonline/issue%202/splash2.html (When you get there, click on the title of the essay, and keep clicking on NEXT as you get to the bottom of each page.) http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/about.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:48:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Sak Pas=?Windows-1252?Q?=E9!?= Join Haiti Days of Action October 2 to 4 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: thirdworldactionuwm@yahoogroups.com From: mtrmsd@sbcglobal.net Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:41:09 +0000 Subject: [thirdworldactionuwm] Sak Pas=E9! Join Haiti Days of Action Octobe= r 2 to 4 =20 =20 This is something I have been fasting for over the past week. = Please call in! - Brian =20 We are at a crucial time for Haiti =E2=80=99s debt cancellation. In Haitian= Creole "Sak pas=C3=A9" means, "What's happening." Over the next three days= we'd like you to ask your member of Congress: "What's happening with Haiti= 's Debt Cancellation? What's the hold up?" Since last year, the World Bank, International Monetary Fund and the Inter-= American Development Bank have each decided that Haiti =E2=80=99s debts sho= uld be cancelled. But they are demanding that Haiti wait until the completi= on of a three-year process =E2=80" at minimum =E2=80" before the debt is ac= tually written off.=20 In the meantime, Haiti will pay millions more in debt service to these inst= itutions, when the money could be used for health and education funding, in= frastructure and many other immediate needs.=20 =20 In March of this year, seven members of Congress introduced HRes 241, a res= olution calling for Haiti =E2=80=99s debt to be cancelled immediately. This= resolution now has 63 co-sponsors. Take action and help make a final push = to get the resolution to a vote during a week of intense grassroots pressur= e. ------- October 2-4 National Call-In Day in Support of House Resolution 241. If you= =E2=80=99re in the DC area, walk the halls and meet with Members of Congres= s to encourage support for debt cancellation.=20 October 4 Haiti Can=E2=80=99t Wait for Debt Cancellation Congressional Brie= fing on HR 241 3:30pm -5:00pm Room 2105 Rayburn House Office Building . The= panel is cosponsored by Jubilee USA, TransAfrica Forum, Partners in Health= , Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti , and the Quixote Center .=20 ------- CALL-IN DAYS=20 On October 2, 3 or 4 make a call to your representative asking your congres= sperson to co-sponsor H Res 241. If you can be in the Washington , D.C. are= during this week join us in making visits to members of Congress=E2=80=99 = office. For more information about visiting your representative, please ema= il Brian Swarts at brian@jubileeusa.org. Get the Call-In Script & Haiti Brief Download Jubilee's Haiti Fact Sheet Read HRes 241 Download the Action Alert If your member of Congress has already co-sponsored the resolution give the= m a call anyway.=20 Thank them for co-sponsoring the resolution and ask him/her when we can exp= ect a vote on the resolution. =20 Also, let your member of Congress know about the briefing on October 4. Let= them know that this is an important issue for you and you expect a represe= ntative from that office to be at the briefing. =20 CONGRESSIONAL BRIEFING Thursday, Oct. 4, 3:30 p.m.-5:00 p.m. in Rm. 2105 of the Rayburn House Offi= ce Building .=20 Please urge your colleagues to hold a hearing on HRes 241 in the House Comm= ittee of Financial Services or pass it from committee to schedule a general= vote, before Congress recesses. Jubilee USA Network is organizing a 40 day rolling fast to educate about de= bt and mobilize grassroots pressure on Congress for debt cancellation for H= aiti and every other country requiring immediate debt cancellation to addre= ss extreme poverty. Find out more and sign up to fast for a day (or more!)= at www.jubileeusa.org/canceldebtfast.html.=20 Haiti's people can't wait any longer, and neither can we. In peace and solidarity, Neil Watkins National Coordinator P.S. Don't wait to check out this week's articles on Blog the Debt. During = Haiti Days of Action, we'll be talking about Haiti's debt, it's economic si= tuation and asking why an end to Haiti's plight is being delayed by some of= the world's most powerful institutions.=20 ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------- =20 =20 __._,_.___ =20 =20 =20 =20 Messages in this topic (1) =20 =20 =20 Reply (via web post) |=20 =20 Start a new topic =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Messages =20 | Files =20 | Photos =20 | Links =20 | Database =20 | Polls =20 | Members =20 | Calendar =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)=20 Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch f= ormat to Traditional=20 =20 Visit Your Group=20 | =20 Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | =20 Unsubscribe =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Visit Your Group =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Yahoo! Groups=20 Health & Fitness=20 Find and share=20 weight loss tips. =20 =20 Yahoo! Groups=20 Find Green Groups=20 Share with others=20 Help the Planet. =20 =20 New web site?=20 Drive traffic now.=20 Get your business=20 on Yahoo! search. =20 =20 =20 =20 . =20 __,_._,___ _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 19:26:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Simic on Creeley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I just read Charles Simic's incredible hatchet job on Bob Creeley's career. Check out the latest New York Review of Books. NYRB only publishes letters to the editor from those famous in its world, which I think lets out all of us on this list. Which leaves me not a lot to do with the rage burning in me. Let no one think that the other side merely ignores us out of carelessness. This is true venom. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 19:52:20 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Necrovilification is so lame. What was the gravamen, for those of us who don't have the time to hunt this down? Is it worse than that bio that came out a few years ago that was so brutal (by Ekbert Faas)? That was still an interesting book for the insights on Creeley's art, I feel. He lampooned himself in his poetry often enough, both his excesses and failings. His writing holds an enormous empathy...which is, to my mind, not something really common in poetry, contrary to popular belief. Poetry survives; pettiness doesn't. You can divine a Hand in that....or perhaps a universe that is really just bored by shit talking. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:19:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry ... couldn't find this on the main page or in the archives. Do you have a url? AMB In a message dated 10/2/2007 6:33:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, junction@EARTHLINK.NET writes: I just read Charles Simic's incredible hatchet job on Bob Creeley's career. Check out the latest New York Review of Books. NYRB only publishes letters to the editor from those famous in its world, which I think lets out all of us on this list. Which leaves me not a lot to do with the rage burning in me. Let no one think that the other side merely ignores us out of carelessness. This is true venom. Mark ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Pawlak Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just went toi the BYRB Oct. 11 online issue, which appears to be the = latest, but found no Simic on Creeley. Can you point me to ther issue = where you read this review? Perhaps it's the latest hard copy isue, = which is yet to get posted? Mar Pawlak Mark Pawlak, Director Academic Support Programs University of Massachusetts Boston 617-287-6550 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Mark Weiss Sent: Tue 10/2/2007 7:26 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Simic on Creeley =20 I just read Charles Simic's incredible hatchet job on Bob Creeley's=20 career. Check out the latest New York Review of Books. NYRB only=20 publishes letters to the editor from those famous in its world, which=20 I think lets out all of us on this list. Which leaves me not a lot to=20 do with the rage burning in me. Let no one think that the other side=20 merely ignores us out of carelessness. This is true venom. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:42:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: 96 Teardrops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In Performance, Garland Jeffries always did a great job on this. Somehow it was hard to hear it without simultaneously laughing, the pathos was so overboard, but the beat was terrific. 96 Tears (Written by Ruby Martinez) Question Mark & the Mysterians Garland Jeffries Todd Rundgren Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin' Too many teardrops for one heart to carry on You're way on top now Since you left me You're always laughin' Way down at me But watch out now I'm gonna get there We'll be together For just a little while And then I'm gonna put you Way down here And you'll start cryin' Ninety-six tears Cry Cry And when the sun comes up I'll be on top You'll be way down there Lookin' up And I might wave Come up here But I don't see you Wavin' now I'm way down here Wonderin' how I'm gonna get you But I know now I'll just cry, cry, I'll just cry Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin' Too many teardrops for one heart To carry on You're gonna cry ninety-six tears You're gonna cry ninety-six tears You're gonna cry cry, cry, cry, now You're gonna cry cry, cry, cry Ninety-six tears c'mon and lemme hear you cry, now Ninety-six tears (whoo!) I wanna hear you cry Night and day, yeah, all night long Uh-ninety-six tears cry cry cry C'mon baby, let me hear you cry now, all night long Uh-ninety-six tears! Yeah! C'mon now Uh-ninety-six tears! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:56:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nathaniel Siegel Subject: gay poets reading in soho nyc gallery tuesday october 16th 7pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends: Nathaniel Siegel & Regie Cabico are proud to present poets Guillermo Castro, Edward Field, John Giorno, Bill Kushner, Joseph Legaspi, Douglas A. Martin, Michael Montlack, Moonshine Shorey, Rob Stuart, Richard Tayson... and others to be announced ! COME HEAR ! Gay Poets Read Their Own Work Tuesday October 16th 2007 at 7pm at the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation 26 Wooster Street (between Grand & Canal) NYC NY 10013 Phone (212) 431-2609 _www.leslielohman.org/_ (http://www.leslielohman.org/) This reading is underwritten by a generous grant from the John Burton Harter Charitable Trust A limited edition chapbook will be available for purchase on the evening of the event including the work of the poets and artwork by John Burton Harter. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:46:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: mackerel In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070928110727.0356e310@theriver.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:08 AM, charles alexander wrote: > sorry to be a party pooper, but can't the fish talk migrate to a fish > site. or does everybody think this is the time & place for the poetics > of fish?? > > While flowing rivers yield a blameless sport, Shall live the name of Walton: Sage benign! Whose pen, the mysteries of the rod and line Unfolding, did not fruitlessly exhort To reverend watching of each still report That Nature utters from her rural shrine. ---William Wordsworth, 1819 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:48:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > That everyday she gave up the good life for me ? > George Harvey Bowering Fond of many dead people. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:09:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070930143515.068e3560@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit These Boots are made for Walking. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:25:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Call for Work: Imaginary Syllabi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please post & forward widely, thanks--JS ************* Imaginary Syllabi:=20 CALL FOR WORK =20 Imaginary Syllabi, a book-length project of contributions by multiple = authors, aims to collect writings which investigate, uncover, examine, = complicate, question, spoof, spark, incite, meditate, mediate, mix, = sample, nettle, navigate, question, provoke, and otherwise (essentially) = challenge pedagogical strategies pursuant to the work of teaching = writing and other disciplines. Or, writings which dream up, concoct and = explore fabulist fantasy syllabi for potential imagined or real = classroom endeavors: Educational projects undertaken and employed = (deployed) in and outside of official as well as mongrel "schools." = Official spaces might harbor (or cultivate) the mongrel & vice versa. =20 MATERIAL: --Sample syllabi which have been implemented or might/could be = implemented AND the opposite of this condition: wholly fantastical = stuff more suited to investigations in outer space and other = socio-cultural vacuums. =20 --Syllabi composed entirely of images or text or some combination of = both. Syllabi may be scattered or comprehensive lists of pertinent, = esoteric, weird or terribly useful URLs.=20 =20 --Documents from classroom practices which were successful, compelling, = disturbing etc. and which their authors wish to share, distribute, make = known. =20 --Essays/Syllabi which mention other teachers and communities of = teachers &/or documents, critiques, etc. &/or explore and extend the = work of other teachers and communities of teachers, theorists, scholars, = activist, revolutionaries, radicals, & intellectual insurgents.... There = is no intended fixed, predetermined or official meaning attached in this = CFW to the word "teacher"; "A thing which shows or points something = out."; teachers are sometimes not necessarily human organisms.=20 =20 --Writings which disclose, assay, weigh the idea of the "syllabus" = itself. =20 --Unimagined documents for unimagined learners among whom we would also = group teachers / professors / instructors / mentors / advisors / and so = on. =20 READING PERIOD: October 1, 2007-December 31, 2007. =20 PUBLICATION: --Summer 2008. Each contributor will receive 2 copies of the published = book and additional copies at minimal cost.=20 =20 QUESTIONS?=20 --The intent of this CFW is to spur and develop a sense of critical = inquiry, partnership, collaboration, critique and rebellion which the = final book object also aims to cultivate among and within its readers.=20 =20 Points to Consider: Imaginary Syllabi is primarily (though not exclusively) concerned with = work undertaken by students and teachers who are working as writers in = some capacity: as documentarians, compositionists, art critics, = journalists, performance artists, poets and others.=20 =20 INTERESTED? --Send queries, manuscripts, proposals and questions to: =20 Imaginary Syllabi Editor, Jane Sprague Palm Press 143 Ravenna Drive Long Beach, CA 90803 =20 Or contact by email: palmpress[at]gmail[dot]com www.palmpress.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 22:13:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: "Sal Paradise at Fifty" In-Reply-To: <188654.47703.qm@web51808.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Mary Kasimor wrote: > I agree, but years before I was an aging boomer, I thought that > Kerouac's writing was touched with great sadness. Kerouac seemed to be > a "broken angel." > > Just some thoughts. > > Mary Kasimor > > Well, it isn't hard to find these words on nearly any page: "drear" "blear" "sad" "lone" > Geo. H. Bowering Adaptable yet reliable. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 05:24:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Feed the World with Tiny Books! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Meritage Press Announcement=20 TINY BOOKS RELEASES FOURTH TITLE FOR POETRY TO KEEP FEEDING THE WORLD Meritage Press (MP) is pleased to announce the fourth title in its series o= f=20 Tiny Books that aligns poetry with fair trade and economic development=20 issues affecting Third World countries.=20 MP's Tiny Books utilize small books (1 3/4" x 1 3/4") made in Guatemala by=20 artisans paid fair wages, as sourced by Baksheesh, a fair trade retailer. A= ll=20 profits from book sales then will be donated to Heifer International, an=20 organization devoted to reducing world hunger by promoting sustainable sour= ces of=20 food and income. This project reflects MP's belief that "Poetry feeds the=20 world" in non-metaphorical ways. The Tiny Books create demand for fair trad= e=20 workers' products while also sourcing donations for easing poverty in poore= r=20 areas of the world.=20 We are delighted to announce that MP's fourth Tiny Book is =20 Speak which Hay(na)ku poems by Jill Jones Jill Jones' latest book, Broken/Open (Salt, 2005), was short-listed for The= =20 Age Book of the Year 2005 and the 2006 Kenneth Slessor Poetry Prize. In 199= 3=20 she won the Mary Gilmore Award for her first book of poetry, The Mask and t= he=20 Jagged Star (Hazard Press, 1992). Her third book, The Book of Possibilities= =20 (Hale & Iremonger, 1997), was shortlisted for the 1997 National Book Counci= l=20 'Banjo' Awards and the 1998 Adelaide Festival Awards. Screens, Jets, Heaven= :=20 New and Selected Poems (Salt, 2002) won the 2003 Kenneth Slessor Poetry Pri= ze=20 (NSW Premier's Literary Awards). Her work has been translated into Chinese,= =20 Dutch, Polish, French, Italian and Spanish. MP's other Tiny Books, which also are still available, are =20 all alone again=20 by Dan Waber and Steps: A Notebook =20 by Tom Beckett =20 and "=E2=80=A6And Then The Wind Did Blow..." =20 Jainak=C3=BA Poems by Ernesto Priego Each Tiny Book will cost $10 plus $1.00 shipping/handling in the U.S. (email= =20 us first for non-U.S. orders). To purchase the Tiny Books and donate to=20 Heifer International, send a check for $11.00 per book, made out to "Merita= ge=20 Press" to =20 Eileen Tabios=20 Meritage Press=20 256 North Fork Crystal Springs Rd. =20 St. Helena, CA 94574 Please specify which of the four Tiny Books you are ordering. With Tiny Books, MP also offers a new DIY, or Do-It-Yourself Model of=20 publishing. You've heard of POD or print-on-demand? Well, these books' prin= t runs=20 will be based on HOD or Handwritten-on-Demand. MP's publisher, Eileen Tabio= s,=20 will handwrite all texts into the Tiny Books' pages and books will be=20 released to meet demand for as long as MP is able to source tiny books -- o= r until=20 the publisher gets arthritis.=20 ABOUT THE TINY BOOK AUTHORS: Dan Waber is a visual poet, concrete poet, sound poet, performance poet,=20 publisher, editor, playwright and multimedia artist whose work has appeared= in=20 all sorts of delicious places, from digital to print, from stage to classro= om,=20 from mailboxes to puppet theaters. He is currently working on "and =20 everywhere in between". He makes his online home at logolalia.com. Meritage=20= Press=20 tapped Mr. Waber to inaugurate the series partly for his work in minimalist= =20 poetry.=20 Tom Beckett is the author of Unprotected Texts: Selected Poems 1978~2006=20 (Meritage Press, 2006), and the curator of E-X-C-H-A-N-G-E-V-A-L-U-E-S: The= =20 First XI Interviews (Otoliths, 2007). From 1980-1990, he was the editor/pub= lisher=20 of the now legendary critical journal, The Difficulties. Steps: A Notebook=20 is Tom Beckett's first hay(na)ku poetry collection. The hay(na)ku is also a= =20 form that lends itself to minimalism.=20 Ernesto Priego was born in Mexico City. He lives in London. He blogs at=20 Never Neutral (http://neverneutral.wordpress.com/) and is the author of the= first=20 single-author hay(na)ku poetry collection, Not Even Dogs=20 (http://meritagepress.com/notevendogs.htm). The "jainak=C3=BA" is Mexico's= version of the hay(na)ku=20 poetic form. For more information: MeritagePress@aol.com=20 ***** FUNDAISING UPDATE: As of Oct. 3, 2007, Meritage Press' Tiny Books program has sold enough Tiny= =20 Books to finance the donation equivalent of two llamas, and is more than=20 half-way there to financing a third llama! Here's what Heifer has to say a= bout =20 llamas: "When resources are scarce, it's important that livestock don't use up land= =20 reserved for people. At home in rough, mountainous areas of Latin America,=20 llamas are a blessing to families with limited pasture land, and they play=20= a=20 pivotal role in the cultural life of indigenous communities on the high pla= ins=20 of Bolivia, Ecuador and Peru. // Women weave their llamas' fleece into wa= rm=20 clothing to wear or sell. They load them up with goods for market and trek=20 with them across rugged slopes at high altitudes. As they travel, llamas'=20 padded feet don't damage the fragile terrain and their selective browsing d= oesn't=20 destroy sparse vegetation. // Llamas and their kin, the alpaca, provide=20 Heifer families with invaluable sources of transportation, income and wool,= =20 which is prized for making blankets, ponchos, carpet and rope."=20 Isn't that fabulous about llamas?! Then of course there are the chickens,=20 goats, water buffalos, pigs, ducks, honeybees....all of which can help ease= =20 hunger around the world. Meritage Press thanks you in advance for your sup= port=20 and hopes you enjoy Tiny Books -- small enough to become jewelry, but with=20 poems big enough to resonate worldwide. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:27:32 -0400 Reply-To: Jeff Davis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Davis Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley Comments: To: Mark Weiss In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071002192320.03c9b850@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't see anything like this in the online tables of content for the current issue (Oct 11), or in the last one (Sept 27); the only thing by Simic listed is a poem in the Sept. issue. Which issue is this in? Thanks .... Jeff Tuesday, October 2, 2007, 7:26:55 PM, you wrote: MW> I just read Charles Simic's incredible hatchet job on Bob Creeley's MW> career. Check out the latest New York Review of Books. NYRB only MW> publishes letters to the editor from those famous in its world, which MW> I think lets out all of us on this list. Which leaves me not a lot to MW> do with the rage burning in me. Let no one think that the other side MW> merely ignores us out of carelessness. This is true venom. MW> Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On the web at http://naturespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:49:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James T Sherry Subject: Please Post Segue Reading Schedule MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=_related 00048BA885257369_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_related 00048BA885257369_= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00048BA885257369_=" --=_alternative 00048BA885257369_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U0VHVUUgUkVBRElORyBTRVJJRVMgQCBCT1dFUlkgUE9FVFJZIENMVUIgDQoNClNhdHVyZGF5czog NDowMCBwLm0uIC0gNjowMCBwLm0uMzA4IEJPV0VSWSwganVzdCBub3J0aCBvZiBIb3VzdG9uKioq KiQ2IA0KYWRtaXNzaW9uIGdvZXMgdG8gc3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgcmVhZGVycyoqKipGYWxsIC8gV2lu 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discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Otherwise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hey listserv peops --- I've waxed by blog @ denacht.blogspot.com, where I am collating various "interesting" poetica from your hubs (blogs, etc.) & EDITING them for entry into my own hub (said). I think that with the amount of traffic I'm getting from MIT & Caltech, you might be heard by folks who "matter." Oh yeah, Listenlight still kicks ass, still at listenlight.net. Send your best. In a couple years, I hope to deliver there a 1st full-fledged "Web 2.0" poetry portal. Cheers -- Your happy editor --- Jess Crockett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:03:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phaedra. Gerald S. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 06:25:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Sailers, Ward, and Davis In-Reply-To: <25489.11906.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MiPOesias presents ~~ CYNTHIA SAILERS, DANA WARD and PETER DAVIS~~ Friday, October 26th @ 7 P.M. ~~ CYNTHIA SAILERS is currently writing a dissertation on Narcissism and Perversion in Pathological Group Organization. She is a board member of Small Press Traffic, and previously co-curated New Yipes Reading Series (formerly New Brutalism). DANA WARD is the author of New Couriers (Dusie 2006), I Didn't Build This Machine (Boog Literature, 2004) & The Imaginary Lives of My Neighbors (Duration, 2003). Recent poems have appeared in Mirage #4/Periodical, string of small machines, Small Town, & other places. He lives in Cincinnati & edits Cy Press. PETER DAVIS' book of poems is Hitler's Mustache. He edited Poet's Bookshelf: Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art. His poems have appeared in journals like MiPOesias, Octopus, Court Green, Rattle, and McSweeney's. His music project, Shot Hand, is available through Collectible Escalators. He lives in Muncie, Indiana with his wife, son, and daughter and teaches at Ball State University. ~~~~~~~ STAIN BAR 766 Grand Street Brooklyn , NY 11211 (L train to Grand Street Stop, walk 1 block west) 718/387-7840 http://www.stainbar.com/ ~~~~~~~~ Hope you'll stop by! Amy King Editor http://www.mipoesias.com **please forward** **apologies for cross-posting** --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:12:38 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Caleb Cluff Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dworkin for the man. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Enjoy the meal.=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Komninos Zervos Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 7:40 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? the bridal waltz komninos zervos =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D The information contained in this email and any attachment is = confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended = only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of = this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this = email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please = notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does = not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. = Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's = liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:13:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Duggan Subject: Re: Boston In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks Kevin, and thanks Ruth. I'm already filling my October calendar with readings, lectures, and events. And pumpkin carving, of course. We don't have Autumn in San Francisco...at least not like we have it here in New England. Patrick On 10/2/07, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > yes, hi, patrick--I know your name somehow. welcome back to intensity. > > > On 10/2/07 11:45 AM, "Kevin Killian" wrote: > > > Just a note to say, Bostonians, please welcome Patrick Duggan with open > > arms. He is one of the good ones and we miss him already back here in > San > > Francisco. > > > > Kevin K. > > > > > >> Thanks for all of the information! > >> > >> On 9/29/07, Ruth Lepson wrote: > >>> > >>> check out demolicious series (google it) & P.A.'s Lounge in Somerville > & > >>> The > >>> Plough & The Stars bar/rest series. new series in south boston at The > >>> Distillery. > >>> > >>> > >>> On 9/29/07 2:07 PM, "Susan R. Williamson" > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> At 02:48 PM 9/28/2007, you wrote: > >>>>> Hi everyone, > >>>>> > >>>>> I just moved back to Boston this month from San Francisco, where I > >>> did > >>> my > >>>>> MFA, and I was wondering if anyone on this wonderful listserv of > ours > >>> knew > >>>>> any interesting reading series, any good places to finds lists of > >>> lectures > >>>>> and readings, and good small presses, any workshops or salons, etc. > >>> in > >>> the > >>>>> city. I lived in Boston years and years ago when I was in college, > >>> but > >>> I > >>>>> wasn't the invested poet that I am now. I've heard of Grub Street, > >>> but > >>>>> that's about it. > >>>> Hi Patrick, > >>>> I'm not from Boston, but a good place to start is: > >>>> http://www.poets.org/state.php/varState/MA > >>>> Academy of American Poets, by state and by city ... > >>>> best, > >>>> Susan > >>> > >> > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:12:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Grand Piano 4 has arrived Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The reprinted edition of Grand Piano 4 has now shipped and will soon go out= =20 to subscribers. Thanks to readers for their patience! ***** The Nonnarrative Continues! Announcing THE GRAND PIANO, PART 4 and launch of the Grand Piano home site: http://www.thegrandpiano.org An Experiment in Collective Autobiography, San Francisco, 1975-1980. Part=20 4, by Carla Harryman, Kit Robinson, Tom Mandel, Barrett Watten, Rae=20 Armantrout, Ted Pearson, Lyn Hejinian, Bob Perelman, Ron Silliman, and=20 Steve Benson http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/images/homepage/gp4front.jpg "The defiantly-lived optimism on offer in The Grand Piano is yet another=20 way in which this generation...has resisted the imperatives of the poetics,= =20 politics, and performance of self-centered melancholia. / This small verbal= =20 token seems like a passport, an efficient and elegant key to another world= =20 where literary idealism and integrity still command respect." =97Maria Damon, Rain Taxi Review of Books Copies of single volumes may be ordered from Small Press Distribution, Inc.= =20 Subscription to The Grand Piano (ten volumes, at three-month intervals,=20 beginning with parts 1=964), is available for $90 from Lyn Hejinian, 2639=20 Russell Street, Berkeley, CA 94705. Partial subscriptions starting from #2= =20 are $80; from #3, for $70; from #4, for $60, etc. Order forms (color or b&w) may be downloaded at: http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/pdfs/gp14order.pdf http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/pdfs/gp14orderbw.pdf Designed and published by Barrett Watten, Mode A/This Press (Detroit), 6885= =20 Cathedral Drive, Bloomfield Twp., MI 48301. Distributed (individual orders= =20 and trade) by Small Press Distribution, Inc., 1341 Seventh Street,=20 Berkeley, CA 94710-1408. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:51:22 -0400 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: CA Conrad, anorexia, footnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's official, CA Conrad rocks. He's the best reason to read this list. Another commonality between Coulter and Gluck: the poetics of anorexia. If you starve yourself enough, it's like killing. So starve away, convert the fatty infidels to our self-hatred, and may all joy be in the footnotes of history, where someone will discover again what it's like to feel animal delight. Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:12:35 -0400 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: THE GOOD WAR AND THOSE WHO REFUSED TO FIGHT IT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you don't want to read BEHIND THE LINES: WAR RESISTANCE POETRY ON THE AMERICAN HOMEFRONT SINCE 1941, watch THE GOOD WAR AND THOSE WHO REFUSED TO FIGHT IT, and you'll at least catch up on "a footnote to a footnote" of that war. Conscientious Objectors have played a vital role in the progressive movements of this country, including in the Civil Rights struggle, the Anti-Nuclear and Anti-Vietnam War movements, the struggle for better care of the mentally ill, etc.
PBS re-broadcasts THE GOOD WAR AND THOSE WHO REFUSED TO FIGHT IT shown locally on WVIZ channel 25 Thursday Evening @ 10 pm Beginning on October 4 at 10 p.m., PBS again nationally broadcasts the award-winning documentary on the conscientious objectors of WWII. THE GOOD WAR AND THOSE WHO REFUSED TO FIGHT IT is the story of 40,000Americans who refused to shoulder weapons in 'the good war' becauseconscience wouldn't allow them to kill another human being. In theface of criticism and scorn, these CO's challenged the limits ofdemocracy and applied their non-violence to pioneer social movementsthat transformed America in the years to follow. This untold story of 'The War' by Judith Ehrlich and Rick Tejada-Flores won both major US history awards in 2003. The programis now available on DVD for the home market with two hours ofadditional material including:* James Farmer on the pacifist roots of the civil rights movement* The poetry of William Stafford* Studs Terkel on 'The Good War'* Daniel Ellsberg on Thoreau AND the DVD release includes a brand-new Conscientious Objector's DVD with:* Draft Counseling 101* A dynamic workshop featuring current military conscientious objectors* Interviews with five Iraq War CO's.
Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:26:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: THE GOOD WAR AND THOSE WHO REFUSED TO FIGHT IT In-Reply-To: <20071003101235.AWA71138@mirapoint.jcu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm still viewing this series -- but here's one from "Hijacking Catastrophe" called "Things Related and Not: From 9/11 to Baghdad" that might be of interest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GT7ti8LZ6A Amy -- Reviews - Yay! * http://reviews.coldfrontmag.com/2007/06/im_the_man_who_.html * http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc43.pdf * http://nickpiombino.blogspot.com/2007_03_18_archive.html * http://galatearesurrection6.blogspot.com/2007/05/im-man-who-loves-you-by-amy-king.html * http://adamfieled.blogspot.com/2007/05/book-review-amy-king-antidote-for-alibi.html Interviews - Yay! * http://wearduringorangealert.blogspot.com/2007/07/writers-corner_12.html * http://www.curvemag.com/Detailed/731.html * http://www.loc.gov/poetry/poetpoem.html ~ http://www.amyking.org/blog --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:46:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <1DFDC848411ED84F85CEE0ED56300657AA51B1@ebe2.umassb.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Yup, the current hard copy, Oct. 25. I guess any discussion will have to wait a couple of weeks til they post it on the web. Mark At 08:18 PM 10/2/2007, you wrote: >I just went toi the BYRB Oct. 11 online issue, which appears to be >the latest, but found no Simic on Creeley. Can you point me to ther >issue where you read this review? Perhaps it's the latest hard copy >isue, which is yet to get posted? > >Mar Pawlak > >Mark Pawlak, Director >Academic Support Programs >University of Massachusetts Boston >617-287-6550 > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Mark Weiss >Sent: Tue 10/2/2007 7:26 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Simic on Creeley > >I just read Charles Simic's incredible hatchet job on Bob Creeley's >career. Check out the latest New York Review of Books. NYRB only >publishes letters to the editor from those famous in its world, which >I think lets out all of us on this list. Which leaves me not a lot to >do with the rage burning in me. Let no one think that the other side >merely ignores us out of carelessness. This is true venom. > >Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:12:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Boston In-Reply-To: <34bace050710030613q3b65a0dan5e8cbc1f5971977c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit great--see you handing out candy or some such soon! best ruth On 10/3/07 9:13 AM, "Patrick Duggan" wrote: > Thanks Kevin, and thanks Ruth. I'm already filling my October calendar with > readings, lectures, and events. And pumpkin carving, of course. We don't > have Autumn in San Francisco...at least not like we have it here in New > England. > > Patrick > > On 10/2/07, Ruth Lepson wrote: >> >> yes, hi, patrick--I know your name somehow. welcome back to intensity. >> >> >> On 10/2/07 11:45 AM, "Kevin Killian" wrote: >> >>> Just a note to say, Bostonians, please welcome Patrick Duggan with open >>> arms. He is one of the good ones and we miss him already back here in >> San >>> Francisco. >>> >>> Kevin K. >>> >>> >>>> Thanks for all of the information! >>>> >>>> On 9/29/07, Ruth Lepson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> check out demolicious series (google it) & P.A.'s Lounge in Somerville >> & >>>>> The >>>>> Plough & The Stars bar/rest series. new series in south boston at The >>>>> Distillery. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/29/07 2:07 PM, "Susan R. Williamson" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> At 02:48 PM 9/28/2007, you wrote: >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just moved back to Boston this month from San Francisco, where I >>>>> did >>>>> my >>>>>>> MFA, and I was wondering if anyone on this wonderful listserv of >> ours >>>>> knew >>>>>>> any interesting reading series, any good places to finds lists of >>>>> lectures >>>>>>> and readings, and good small presses, any workshops or salons, etc. >>>>> in >>>>> the >>>>>>> city. I lived in Boston years and years ago when I was in college, >>>>> but >>>>> I >>>>>>> wasn't the invested poet that I am now. I've heard of Grub Street, >>>>> but >>>>>>> that's about it. >>>>>> Hi Patrick, >>>>>> I'm not from Boston, but a good place to start is: >>>>>> http://www.poets.org/state.php/varState/MA >>>>>> Academy of American Poets, by state and by city ... >>>>>> best, >>>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:16:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit yes it's true--no self-pity, blessed empathy On 10/2/07 7:52 PM, "W.B. Keckler" wrote: > Necrovilification is so lame. What was the gravamen, for those of us who > don't have the time to hunt this down? Is it worse than that bio that came out > a > few years ago that was so brutal (by Ekbert Faas)? That was still an > interesting book for the insights on Creeley's art, I feel. He lampooned > himself in > his poetry often enough, both his excesses and failings. His writing holds an > enormous empathy...which is, to my mind, not something really common in > poetry, contrary to popular belief. Poetry survives; pettiness doesn't. You > can > divine a Hand in that....or perhaps a universe that is really just bored by > shit talking. > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:57:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I haven't found it either. Simic's NYT review on Richard Wilbur was excellent. He was able to distinguish Wilbur's achievement as a craftsman, but see through to the too often timid nature of Wilbur's work, his entire body of work, his canon. I'm curious too see if he scrutinizes Creeley in a similiar manner. --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:18:23 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT disappointing; wanting to read myself; can someone let the list know when such is posted so we can all read & respond? yr canadian pal, rob > >Yup, the current hard copy, Oct. 25. I guess any discussion will have >to wait a couple of weeks til they post it on the web. > >Mark > >At 08:18 PM 10/2/2007, you wrote: >>I just went toi the BYRB Oct. 11 online issue, which appears to be >>the latest, but found no Simic on Creeley. Can you point me to ther >>issue where you read this review? Perhaps it's the latest hard copy >>isue, which is yet to get posted? >> >>Mar Pawlak >> >>Mark Pawlak, Director >>Academic Support Programs >>University of Massachusetts Boston >>617-287-6550 >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Mark Weiss >>Sent: Tue 10/2/2007 7:26 PM >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Simic on Creeley >> >>I just read Charles Simic's incredible hatchet job on Bob Creeley's >>career. Check out the latest New York Review of Books. NYRB only >>publishes letters to the editor from those famous in its world, which >>I think lets out all of us on this list. Which leaves me not a lot to >>do with the rage burning in me. Let no one think that the other side >>merely ignores us out of carelessness. This is true venom. >> >>Mark > > -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:16:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I looked for this article on Creeley at the New York Review of Books website and couldn't find it via their email address. Does anybody know where it is? I would like to read it. Robert Creeley was a great poet. Charles Simic is a fine poet, whatever his take on Creeley might be. This should be remembered, although, of course, the issue at hand is whether or not his article on Creeley is any good, or right, etc. But without access to the actual article, I can't say or see anything. Regards, Tom Savage Ruth Lepson wrote: yes it's true--no self-pity, blessed empathy On 10/2/07 7:52 PM, "W.B. Keckler" wrote: > Necrovilification is so lame. What was the gravamen, for those of us who > don't have the time to hunt this down? Is it worse than that bio that came out > a > few years ago that was so brutal (by Ekbert Faas)? That was still an > interesting book for the insights on Creeley's art, I feel. He lampooned > himself in > his poetry often enough, both his excesses and failings. His writing holds an > enormous empathy...which is, to my mind, not something really common in > poetry, contrary to popular belief. Poetry survives; pettiness doesn't. You > can > divine a Hand in that....or perhaps a universe that is really just bored by > shit talking. > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:30:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Score MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Score Hunting and tending - hunting focus with a camera - tending instruments - hunting and tending in relation to tuning (radios) - also in relation to behavior collision in Second Life - trying to construct a coherent image out of ambiguity. "I act with great roomy spontaneity, and since appearance dawns as text, I understand everything that occurs to be a key instruction." The real breaks through everything. http://www.asondheim.org/score.mov A small section from severeweather.mov which is too large to compress. "Pick up the narrative from here." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:23:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #16: Evented Breath Featuring: Jennifer Rogers Jesse Seldess 7pm Sunday, October 14th doors lock at 7:30pm suggested donation $3 BYOB at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Ave -- Chicago, IL NEW LOCATION close to Grand & Pulaski in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 http://www.spareroomchicago.org JENNIFER ROGERS runs Hot Whiskey Press with her fiancé Michael Koshkin. She is currently pursuing a Masters of Humanities from The University of Chicago. She holds an M.F.A from Naropa University where she first learned of the Surrealist group of Prague and decided to dedicate at least the next several years to the study and translation of Czech avant-garde poetry. Her other pursuits include letterpress printing and plant maintenance. She is also employed in the field of alchemy for arts' sake. Her chapbook, Periplum maps our starless shores, is available from Livestock Press. JESSE SELDESS relocated from Chicago to Berlin and, more recently, from Berlin to Karlsruhe. In Chicago, he co-curated The Discrete Reading and Performance Series with Kerri Sonnenberg. In Berlin, he organizes The Floating Series of exhibitions and events with Leonie Weber. In Karlsruhe, he continues to edit Antennae, a journal of experimental writing, music, and performance. Chapbooks of his poems have been published by Answer Tag Home Press, Bronze Skull Press, and the Chicago Poetry Project, and his book of poems, Who Opens, appeared on Kenning Editions early in 2006. Coming up Experiment #17: Silent Teaching a tribute to Hannah Weiner 7pm Saturday, November 17th Featuring: Maria Damon Judith Goldman Roberto Harrison Jenny Roberts Jen Scappetone Tim Yu and some surprises http://www.kenningeditions.com Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries The SpareRoom is Chicago's time-arts cooperative. Our space gives a community of artists the opportunity to rehearse, perform, exhibit, and develop work on their own terms. Our Make Work program provides use of the space for interdisciplinary events and workshops: performance art, film, video, readings, dance, theater, installation, experimental sound and more. Contact: spareroominfo@yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:59:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Chris, I agree that the entire issue wasn't weighed, and I was annoyed at the bent that the personalities on the radio station placed. They did not say that men were more or less happy than they were then, just that they are happier THAN WOMEN, and wondered aloud if this change had to do with "equality" (a still debatable issue) and women's lib. I couldn't help but think that I certainly wouldn't be "happy" if I were living in a world that's like what it was before women's lib movements.... I happen to like being able to make choices about what happens to my body, and I've been enjoying my pursuit of a higher education, just to name a couple of my personal favorite "liberties." I'm not sure I'd be as happy with other alternatives, if those were the only options. Then again, I'm not one to enjoy boxes and tend to try to leap out of one as soon as someone tries to place me in it. Also, there is research out there that says that single "people" are happier than married "people," etc. I think that research can easily show what a researcher wants to show, and I can't say that the radio show hosts were even representing what the researchers had intended. Who's to say? I just don't like questions like that when they put a germ in people's minds that "things were better as they were before-- when women were in their place." I know that that can easily be my sole take on the experience. Maybe no one else heard it the way I did. But, that's the message I got. It seems to me that life, on the whole, is more stressful, no matter what gender or even ethnic background one identifies with, so some statements are difficult for me to hear. I had wanted to call into the radio to give my impressions of all that, but I didn't know that I had time for my rant (as I was headed into work). This does not even mention the kind of impact these kinds of statements have on others in this society who are still fighting for a voice. Women have more of a voice than most. Cheers, Tracey On 9/29/07, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > Tracey---thanks for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, > and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on this issue, > but I would like to propose another interpretation to that message. > If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in general > are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is certainly > debatable, > but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also possible that > American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, > and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a divisive > gender issue, > but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes that > occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) > have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a head in > the 55-75 era. > Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find rings > true) that makes that claim. > It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was when > feminism (as well as integration, etc) > seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. > All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to be read > in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. > Curious what you and others think > > Chris > > On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > As I think on this one, because there have been songs that have > > crossed my > > path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that message!", I > > want to > > mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this > > morning. Some > > research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier than women, > > which is > > the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies or > > something like > > that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea to > > consider: > > "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The message I > > heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to their > > husbands.... > > Yuck! > > > > Cheers, > > Tracey > > > > > > On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > >> > >> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find the most > >> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set the > >> clock > >> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for Sheena > >> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be an > >> anthem for > >> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest > >> thus....of > >> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By Your > >> Man," > >> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a > >> man..." as a > >> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to > >> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or whatever > >> will be > >> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. > >> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > >> _____________________________________________________________________ > >> ___ > >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > >> Mail! - > >> http://mail.aol.com > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:05:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <200710010041.l910fVeM014864@nucfw07.abc.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yikes!!! On 9/30/07, Caleb Cluff wrote: > > I've Never Been To Me > ( Charlene ) > > Hey lady, you lady, cursing at your life > You're a discontented mother and a regimented wife > I've no doubt you dream about the things you'll never do > But, I wish someone had talked to me > Like I wanna talk to you..... > > Oh, I've been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run > I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun > But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be free > I've been to paradise but I've never been to me > > Please lady, please lady, don't just walk away > 'Cause I have this need to tell you why I'm all alone today > I can see so much of me still living in your eyes > Won't you share a part of a weary heart that has lived million lies.... > > Oh, I've been to Nice and the Isle of Greece while I've sipped champagne > on a yacht > I've moved like Harlow in Monte Carlo and showed 'em what I've got > I've been undressed by kings and I've seen some things that a woman > ain't supposed to see > I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me > > [spoken] > Hey, you know what paradise is? > It's a lie, a fantasy we create about people and places as we'd like > them to be > But you know what truth is? > It's that little baby you're holding, it's that man you fought with this > morning > The same one you're going to make love with tonight > That's truth, that's love...... > > Sometimes I've been to crying for unborn children that might have made > me complete > But I took the sweet life, I never knew I'd be bitter from the sweet > I've spent my life exploring the subtle whoring that costs too much to > be free > Hey lady...... > I've been to paradise, (I've been to paradise) > But I've never been to me > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Marcus Bales > Sent: Monday, 1 October 2007 8:46 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? > > Rolling Stones: Under My Thumb > > > > On 30 Sep 2007 at 14:45, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > My Heart Belongs to Daddy. > > > > The Leader of the Pack. > > > > How Much Is that Doggie in the Window. > > > > Though it's probably a good idea to remember that feminism is an > > ism, > > female is a gender. > > > > But oh well. "Soldier Soldier Will You Marry Me" and the hundreds of > > songs with the same punchline. > > > > Lord Randall. > > Barbry Allen. > > > > At 11:52 AM 9/30/2007, you wrote: > > >She put a spell on me. According to the data, I'm the most > > miserable > > >man in America. > > > > > >Chris Stroffolino wrote: Tracey---thanks > > >for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, > > >and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on this > > issue, > > >but I would like to propose another interpretation to that > > message. > > >If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in > > general > > >are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is certainly > > >debatable, > > >but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also possible > > that > > >American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, > > >and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a > > divisive > > >gender issue, > > >but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes that > > >occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) > > >have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a head > > in > > >the 55-75 era. > > >Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find > > rings > > >true) that makes that claim. > > >It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was when > > >feminism (as well as integration, etc) > > >seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. > > >All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to be > > read > > >in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. > > >Curious what you and others think > > > > > >Chris > > > > > >On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > > > As I think on this one, because there have been songs that > > have > > > > crossed my > > > > path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that message!", > > I > > > > want to > > > > mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this > > > > morning. Some > > > > research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier than > > women, > > > > which is > > > > the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies or > > > > something like > > > > that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea to > > > > consider: > > > > "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The > > message I > > > > heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to their > > > > husbands.... > > > > Yuck! > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find > > the most > > > >> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set > > the > > > >> clock > > > >> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for > > Sheena > > > >> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be > > an > > > >> anthem for > > > >> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest > > > >> thus....of > > > >> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By > > Your > > > >> Man," > > > >> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a > > > >> man..." as a > > > >> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to > > > >> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or > > whatever > > > >> will be > > > >> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. > > > >> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > > > >> > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > >> ___ > > > >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free > > AOL > > > >> Mail! - > > > >> http://mail.aol.com > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Building a website is a piece of cake. > > >Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release Date: > > 9/29/2007 9:46 PM > > > > > > > ============================================================================== > The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential > and > may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended > only for > the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of > this > email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email > or > any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please > notify the > sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does > not > represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. > Before > opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability > is > limited to resupplying any email and attachments > > ============================================================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:42:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick dunagan Subject: Ballard and Dunagan Reading/ SF 10/9/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Micah Ballard and Patrick James Dunagan will read some poems Time & Date: 7:30pm Tuesday, Oct. 9, 2007 Location: Cafe Bazaar 5927 California Street (between 21st & 22nd) San Francisco, CA (415) 831-5620 Any and all are welcome to attend! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:15:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Liz Kotz Subject: book launch: Words to Be Looked At Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear Friends, MIT Press and Printed Matter are delighted to invite you to celebrate the publication of * WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT: LANGUAGE IN 1960S ART * By Liz Kotz * Saturday, October 27, 5-7 pm Printed Matter 195 Tenth Avenue New York NY 1011 MIT Press catalogue: http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11299 Language has been a primary element in visual art since the 1960s-- whether in the form of printed texts, painted signs, words on the wall, or recorded speech. In WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT, Liz Kotz traces this practice to its beginnings, examining works of visual art, poetry, and experimental music created in and around New York City from 1958 to 1968. In many of these works, language has been reduced to an object nearly emptied of meaning. Robert Smithson described a 1967 exhibition at the Dwan Gallery as consisting of "Language to be Looked at and/or Things to be Read." Kotz considers the paradox of artists living in a time of social upheaval who used words but chose not to make statements with them. Kotz traces the proliferation of text in 1960s art to the use of words in musical notation and short performance scores. She makes two works the "bookends" of her study: the "text score" for John Cage's legendary 1952 work 4'33"--written instructions directing a performer to remain silent during three arbitrarily determined time brackets-- and Andy Warhol's notorious a: a novel--twenty-four hours of endless talk, taped and transcribed--published by Grove Press in 1968. Examining works by artists and poets including Vito Acconci, Carl Andre, George Brecht, Douglas Huebler, Joseph Kosuth, Jackson Mac Low, and Lawrence Weiner, Kotz argues that the turn to language in 1960s art was a reaction to the development of new recording and transmission media: words took on a new materiality and urgency in the face of magnetic sound, videotape, and other emerging electronic technologies. WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT is generously illustrated, with images of many important and influential but little-known works. Endorsements "In 1959, Brion Gysin famously claimed that poetry was fifty years behind painting. Gysin's prophecy still holds true: half a century later, contemporary poetry is just beginning to explore ideas forged by language-based artists in the 1960s. As such, this book is a roadmap, bursting at the seams with inspiration and ideas for current literary practices. By embracing an intermedia approach--one where music, photography, visual art, poetry and performance all live in the same room--Liz Kotz elegantly creates a compelling portrait of our digitized networked present. The implications are radical: by gazing backwards, this book predicts the future." --Kenneth Goldsmith, University of Pennsylvania "WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT is a landmark account of the central story of post-war art: the first sustained investigation of the 'linguistic turn' that has defined the arts since the 1960s. As Kotz details with unequalled authority and insight, language became a primary media for artists in many movements--from Pop to Fluxus to Minimalism to Conceptualism--at the same time that the recognition of its materiality permitted an unrivaled experimentation in literature. The American art of the 60s, we learn, put French post-structural theory into radical practice. Combining theoretical sophistication with archival discoveries, Kotz' truly interdisciplinary scholarship allows her to reestablish the dialogue--between experimental music, avant-garde literature, visual art, performance and photography--that made the art of the period so exciting and that continues in the most vital work of our own moment." --Craig Dworkin, Department of English, University of Utah "Of the many strengths of WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT, Kotz's synthetic vision stands out. She has a gift for bringing together previously isolated works in ways that illuminate both elements of her comparison. The discussion of John Ashbery and Jackson MacLow offers us a superb example of this within the domain of poetry, while the chapter on George Brecht's performance piece and Joseph Kosuth's photographic installation provides a model for the synthesis of different arts." --P. Adams Sitney, Director, Program in Visual Arts, Princeton University "Book-ended by Cage's 4'33" and Warhol's a: a novel, by 'silence' and 'glossolalia', Liz Kotz's text tracks a hitherto uncharted trajectory in what she terms "the turn to language" in vanguard art practices of the 1960s and 70s. Kotz's nuanced probing of linguistic operations serving instrumental or instructional ends and/or deployed as material entities illuminates an impressively wide range of works in various fields from experimental music and poetry, to the visual arts. Acutely attentive to that era's displacement of conventional categories, she constructs a network of cross disciplinary readings that freshly parses the interrelationships of Fluxus, Conceptual, performance and post-minimal art works with concurrent disciplines." --Lynne Cooke, Curator, Dia Art Foundation ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:12:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable has anyone mentioned Escape (the Pina Colada song) by Rupert Holmes? or is that one just guilty of 70s tackiness...? -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Tracey Gagne Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 13:05 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? Yikes!!! On 9/30/07, Caleb Cluff wrote: > > I've Never Been To Me > ( Charlene ) > > Hey lady, you lady, cursing at your life > You're a discontented mother and a regimented wife > I've no doubt you dream about the things you'll never do > But, I wish someone had talked to me > Like I wanna talk to you..... > > Oh, I've been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run > I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun > But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be free > I've been to paradise but I've never been to me > > Please lady, please lady, don't just walk away > 'Cause I have this need to tell you why I'm all alone today > I can see so much of me still living in your eyes > Won't you share a part of a weary heart that has lived million lies.... > > Oh, I've been to Nice and the Isle of Greece while I've sipped champagne > on a yacht > I've moved like Harlow in Monte Carlo and showed 'em what I've got > I've been undressed by kings and I've seen some things that a woman > ain't supposed to see > I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me > > [spoken] > Hey, you know what paradise is? > It's a lie, a fantasy we create about people and places as we'd like > them to be > But you know what truth is? > It's that little baby you're holding, it's that man you fought with this > morning > The same one you're going to make love with tonight > That's truth, that's love...... > > Sometimes I've been to crying for unborn children that might have made > me complete > But I took the sweet life, I never knew I'd be bitter from the sweet > I've spent my life exploring the subtle whoring that costs too much to > be free > Hey lady...... > I've been to paradise, (I've been to paradise) > But I've never been to me > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Marcus Bales > Sent: Monday, 1 October 2007 8:46 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? > > Rolling Stones: Under My Thumb > > > > On 30 Sep 2007 at 14:45, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > My Heart Belongs to Daddy. > > > > The Leader of the Pack. > > > > How Much Is that Doggie in the Window. > > > > Though it's probably a good idea to remember that feminism is an > > ism, > > female is a gender. > > > > But oh well. "Soldier Soldier Will You Marry Me" and the hundreds of > > songs with the same punchline. > > > > Lord Randall. > > Barbry Allen. > > > > At 11:52 AM 9/30/2007, you wrote: > > >She put a spell on me. According to the data, I'm the most > > miserable > > >man in America. > > > > > >Chris Stroffolino wrote: Tracey---thanks > > >for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, > > >and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on this > > issue, > > >but I would like to propose another interpretation to that > > message. > > >If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in > > general > > >are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is certainly > > >debatable, > > >but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also possible > > that > > >American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, > > >and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a > > divisive > > >gender issue, > > >but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes that > > >occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) > > >have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a head > > in > > >the 55-75 era. > > >Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find > > rings > > >true) that makes that claim. > > >It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was when > > >feminism (as well as integration, etc) > > >seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. > > >All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to be > > read > > >in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. > > >Curious what you and others think > > > > > >Chris > > > > > >On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > > > As I think on this one, because there have been songs that > > have > > > > crossed my > > > > path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that message!", > > I > > > > want to > > > > mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this > > > > morning. Some > > > > research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier than > > women, > > > > which is > > > > the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies or > > > > something like > > > > that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea to > > > > consider: > > > > "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The > > message I > > > > heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to their > > > > husbands.... > > > > Yuck! > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find > > the most > > > >> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set > > the > > > >> clock > > > >> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for > > Sheena > > > >> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be > > an > > > >> anthem for > > > >> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest > > > >> thus....of > > > >> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By > > Your > > > >> Man," > > > >> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a > > > >> man..." as a > > > >> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to > > > >> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or > > whatever > > > >> will be > > > >> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. > > > >> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > > > >> > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > >> ___ > > > >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free > > AOL > > > >> Mail! - > > > >> http://mail.aol.com > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Building a website is a piece of cake. > > >Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release Date: > > 9/29/2007 9:46 PM > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential > and > may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended > only for > the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of > this > email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email > or > any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please > notify the > sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does > not > represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. > Before > opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability > is > limited to resupplying any email and attachments > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:18:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Ballard and Dunagan Reading/ SF 10/9/07 In-Reply-To: <5fabddd10710031142j3c41fd39h148281fa01a381ed@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wish could attend. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of patrick dunagan Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 1:42 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Ballard and Dunagan Reading/ SF 10/9/07 Micah Ballard and Patrick James Dunagan will read some poems Time & Date: 7:30pm Tuesday, Oct. 9, 2007 Location: Cafe Bazaar 5927 California Street (between 21st & 22nd) San Francisco, CA (415) 831-5620 Any and all are welcome to attend! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:21:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: book launch: Words to Be Looked At In-Reply-To: <0DAB9882-D63E-4F08-9367-E7CF07CAFE82@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mazel tov my dear!!! sorry to miss, but have a blast! Liz Kotz wrote: > Dear Friends, > > MIT Press and Printed Matter are delighted to invite you to celebrate > the publication of > > * WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT: LANGUAGE IN 1960S ART * By Liz Kotz * > > > Saturday, October 27, 5-7 pm > > Printed Matter > 195 Tenth Avenue > New York NY 1011 > > > MIT Press catalogue: > http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11299 > > > Language has been a primary element in visual art since the > 1960s--whether in the form of printed texts, painted signs, words on > the wall, or recorded speech. In WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT, Liz Kotz > traces this practice to its beginnings, examining works of visual art, > poetry, and experimental music created in and around New York City > from 1958 to 1968. In many of these works, language has been reduced > to an object nearly emptied of meaning. Robert Smithson described a > 1967 exhibition at the Dwan Gallery as consisting of "Language to be > Looked at and/or Things to be Read." Kotz considers the paradox of > artists living in a time of social upheaval who used words but chose > not to make statements with them. > > Kotz traces the proliferation of text in 1960s art to the use of words > in musical notation and short performance scores. She makes two works > the "bookends" of her study: the "text score" for John Cage's > legendary 1952 work 4'33"--written instructions directing a performer > to remain silent during three arbitrarily determined time brackets-- > and Andy Warhol's notorious a: a novel--twenty-four hours of endless > talk, taped and transcribed--published by Grove Press in 1968. > Examining works by artists and poets including Vito Acconci, Carl > Andre, George Brecht, Douglas Huebler, Joseph Kosuth, Jackson Mac Low, > and Lawrence Weiner, Kotz argues that the turn to language in 1960s > art was a reaction to the development of new recording and > transmission media: words took on a new materiality and urgency in the > face of magnetic sound, videotape, and other emerging electronic > technologies. WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT is generously illustrated, with > images of many important and influential but little-known works. > > Endorsements > > "In 1959, Brion Gysin famously claimed that poetry was fifty years > behind painting. Gysin's prophecy still holds true: half a century > later, contemporary poetry is just beginning to explore ideas forged > by language-based artists in the 1960s. As such, this book is a > roadmap, bursting at the seams with inspiration and ideas for current > literary practices. By embracing an intermedia approach--one where > music, photography, visual art, poetry and performance all live in the > same room--Liz Kotz elegantly creates a compelling portrait of our > digitized networked present. The implications are radical: by gazing > backwards, this book predicts the future." > --Kenneth Goldsmith, University of Pennsylvania > > "WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT is a landmark account of the central story of > post-war art: the first sustained investigation of the 'linguistic > turn' that has defined the arts since the 1960s. As Kotz details with > unequalled authority and insight, language became a primary media for > artists in many movements--from Pop to Fluxus to Minimalism to > Conceptualism--at the same time that the recognition of its > materiality permitted an unrivaled experimentation in literature. The > American art of the 60s, we learn, put French post-structural theory > into radical practice. Combining theoretical sophistication with > archival discoveries, Kotz' truly interdisciplinary scholarship allows > her to reestablish the dialogue--between experimental music, > avant-garde literature, visual art, performance and photography--that > made the art of the period so exciting and that continues in the most > vital work of our own moment." > --Craig Dworkin, Department of English, University of Utah > > "Of the many strengths of WORDS TO BE LOOKED AT, Kotz's synthetic > vision stands out. She has a gift for bringing together previously > isolated works in ways that illuminate both elements of her > comparison. The discussion of John Ashbery and Jackson MacLow offers > us a superb example of this within the domain of poetry, while the > chapter on George Brecht's performance piece and Joseph Kosuth's > photographic installation provides a model for the synthesis of > different arts." > --P. Adams Sitney, Director, Program in Visual Arts, Princeton University > > "Book-ended by Cage's 4'33" and Warhol's a: a novel, by 'silence' and > 'glossolalia', Liz Kotz's text tracks a hitherto uncharted trajectory > in what she terms "the turn to language" in vanguard art practices of > the 1960s and 70s. Kotz's nuanced probing of linguistic operations > serving instrumental or instructional ends and/or deployed as material > entities illuminates an impressively wide range of works in various > fields from experimental music and poetry, to the visual arts. Acutely > attentive to that era's displacement of conventional categories, she > constructs a network of cross disciplinary readings that freshly > parses the interrelationships of Fluxus, Conceptual, performance and > post-minimal art works with concurrent disciplines." > --Lynne Cooke, Curator, Dia Art Foundation ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:46:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <144670.80328.qm@web31107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Once again, it's in the latest hard copy edition, hence not on the web yet. Worth a trip to the newstand or library (there's other good things in it that won't make your blood boil). Simic writes poems to fit between the ads in the New Yorker. Bob didn't. Simic dismisses all but three or four poems of Bob's published after For Love (1960), in terms that equally dismisses, without naming, a great many poets he's content to see ignored, whose practice defines poetry in a manner different from his own. In the distant past Simic wrote a short book called "White." This was before he was lionized as the latest emigre from the Communist East. Since then he's paid for his supper. He's a skilled poet of his kind, but the world really doesn't need "fine" poets. Creeley changed lives. Mark At 01:16 PM 10/3/2007, you wrote: >I looked for this article on Creeley at the New York Review of Books >website and couldn't find it via their email address. Does anybody >know where it is? I would like to read it. Robert Creeley was a >great poet. Charles Simic is a fine poet, whatever his take on >Creeley might be. This should be remembered, although, of course, >the issue at hand is whether or not his article on Creeley is any >good, or right, etc. But without access to the actual article, I >can't say or see anything. Regards, Tom Savage > >Ruth Lepson wrote: yes it's true--no >self-pity, blessed empathy > > >On 10/2/07 7:52 PM, "W.B. Keckler" wrote: > > > Necrovilification is so lame. What was the gravamen, for those of us who > > don't have the time to hunt this down? Is it worse than that bio > that came out > > a > > few years ago that was so brutal (by Ekbert Faas)? That was still an > > interesting book for the insights on Creeley's art, I feel. He lampooned > > himself in > > his poetry often enough, both his excesses and failings. His > writing holds an > > enormous empathy...which is, to my mind, not something really common in > > poetry, contrary to popular belief. Poetry survives; pettiness doesn't. You > > can > > divine a Hand in that....or perhaps a universe that is really just bored by > > shit talking. > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone >who knows. >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:36:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tracey: A small corrective. >I happen to like being able to make >choices about what happens to my body, and I've been enjoying my pursuit of >a higher education, just to name a couple of my personal favorite >"liberties." My mother, along with her two sisters and three brothers, got her BA in the late 30s, despite being the child of workingclass immigrants who spoke English as a second or third language. This wasn't easy, but it wasn't unusual or heroic, either, in that time and place, when the City University of New York was tuition-free (two of her brothers were educated via the GI Bill). At state schools in the 40s, 50s and 60s, when tuitions were either free or very low, there were also lots of female students, though they tended to be middle class, in part because of the expense of living away from home, and undoubtedly because of social bias. It was working class women who were most educationally deprived then and are so now, when tuitions even at state schools have soared. The issue for women with degrees, whether from public or the more restrictive private institutions, was what to do with their degrees once they graduated, and that, as well as social expectations, tended to push them towards degrees in fields where women could expect to be hired. It's a triumph of social change, of which feminism may be as much a result as an agent, that employment opportunities have opened up and expectations changed. Now the majority of degrees go to womenas well as new hires in most of the learned professions. >This does not even mention the kind of impact these kinds of statements have >on others in this society who are still fighting for a voice. Women have >more of a voice than most. Yup, middle class women certainly do. The issue is the voiceless working class. Class and caste seem to trump sisterhood (or brotherhood, for that matter). Mark >Cheers, >Tracey > > > >On 9/29/07, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > > > Tracey---thanks for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, > > and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on this issue, > > but I would like to propose another interpretation to that message. > > If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in general > > are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is certainly > > debatable, > > but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also possible that > > American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, > > and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a divisive > > gender issue, > > but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes that > > occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) > > have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a head in > > the 55-75 era. > > Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find rings > > true) that makes that claim. > > It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was when > > feminism (as well as integration, etc) > > seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. > > All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to be read > > in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. > > Curious what you and others think > > > > Chris > > > > On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > As I think on this one, because there have been songs that have > > > crossed my > > > path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that message!", I > > > want to > > > mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this > > > morning. Some > > > research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier than women, > > > which is > > > the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies or > > > something like > > > that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea to > > > consider: > > > "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The message I > > > heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to their > > > husbands.... > > > Yuck! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > > >> > > >> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people find the most > > >> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to set the > > >> clock > > >> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is for Sheena > > >> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to be an > > >> anthem for > > >> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and happiest > > >> thus....of > > >> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand By Your > > >> Man," > > >> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just a > > >> man..." as a > > >> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to > > >> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or whatever > > >> will be > > >> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. > > >> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > > >> _____________________________________________________________________ > > >> ___ > > >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > >> Mail! - > > >> http://mail.aol.com > > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:38:38 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: canadian poetry book index Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT i was floating through the internet, & realized that there are the entire texts of some 60s 70s 80s etc canadian poetry books online? fred wah's 'breathin' my name with a sigh,' bowering's 'points on the grid,' victor coleman's 'light verse,' etc; extremely cool (although many of you probably already knew this). http://www.ccca.ca/history/ozz/english/books/index.html see rob. see rob learn. yr western pal, rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:10:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0EE69F16@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong -- it's not the misogynist songs that set feminism back: those are easily discounted, and laughed at. Here's the song that REALLY "sets feminism back" -- it's the song that is paradigmatic of the man who is really really sorry and has been changed by his True Love for the woman: Hello Darlin' nice to see you its been a long time you're just as lovely as you used to be how's your new love are you happy hope your doin fine just to know it means so much to me what's that Darlin' how am I doin' guess I'm doing alright except I cant sleep and I cry all night 'til dawn what I'm trying to say is I love you and I miss you and Im so sorry that I did you wrong look up Darlin' let me kiss you just for old time sake let me hold you in my arms one more time thank you Darlin' may God bless you and may each step you take bring you closer to the things you seem to find goodbye Darlin' gotta go now gotta try to find a way to lose these memories of a love so warm and true and if you should ever find it in your heart to forgive me come back Darlin' Ill be waiting for you On 3 Oct 2007 at 14:12, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > has anyone mentioned Escape (the Pina Colada song) by Rupert > Holmes? > > or is that one just guilty of 70s tackiness...? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Tracey Gagne > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 13:05 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? > > Yikes!!! > > > > > On 9/30/07, Caleb Cluff wrote: > > > > I've Never Been To Me > > ( Charlene ) > > > > Hey lady, you lady, cursing at your life > > You're a discontented mother and a regimented wife > > I've no doubt you dream about the things you'll never do > > But, I wish someone had talked to me > > Like I wanna talk to you..... > > > > Oh, I've been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run > > I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun > > But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be > free > > I've been to paradise but I've never been to me > > > > Please lady, please lady, don't just walk away > > 'Cause I have this need to tell you why I'm all alone today > > I can see so much of me still living in your eyes > > Won't you share a part of a weary heart that has lived million > lies.... > > > > Oh, I've been to Nice and the Isle of Greece while I've sipped > champagne > > on a yacht > > I've moved like Harlow in Monte Carlo and showed 'em what I've > got > > I've been undressed by kings and I've seen some things that a > woman > > ain't supposed to see > > I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me > > > > [spoken] > > Hey, you know what paradise is? > > It's a lie, a fantasy we create about people and places as we'd > like > > them to be > > But you know what truth is? > > It's that little baby you're holding, it's that man you fought > with > this > > morning > > The same one you're going to make love with tonight > > That's truth, that's love...... > > > > Sometimes I've been to crying for unborn children that might have > made > > me complete > > But I took the sweet life, I never knew I'd be bitter from the > sweet > > I've spent my life exploring the subtle whoring that costs too > much to > > be free > > Hey lady...... > > I've been to paradise, (I've been to paradise) > > But I've never been to me > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Marcus Bales > > Sent: Monday, 1 October 2007 8:46 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? > > > > Rolling Stones: Under My Thumb > > > > > > > > On 30 Sep 2007 at 14:45, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > > My Heart Belongs to Daddy. > > > > > > The Leader of the Pack. > > > > > > How Much Is that Doggie in the Window. > > > > > > Though it's probably a good idea to remember that feminism is > an > > > ism, > > > female is a gender. > > > > > > But oh well. "Soldier Soldier Will You Marry Me" and the > hundreds of > > > songs with the same punchline. > > > > > > Lord Randall. > > > Barbry Allen. > > > > > > At 11:52 AM 9/30/2007, you wrote: > > > >She put a spell on me. According to the data, I'm the most > > > miserable > > > >man in America. > > > > > > > >Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Tracey---thanks > > > >for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, > > > >and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on > this > > > issue, > > > >but I would like to propose another interpretation to that > > > message. > > > >If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in > > > general > > > >are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is > certainly > > > >debatable, > > > >but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also > possible > > > that > > > >American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, > > > >and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a > > > divisive > > > >gender issue, > > > >but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes > that > > > >occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) > > > >have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a > head > > > in > > > >the 55-75 era. > > > >Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find > > > rings > > > >true) that makes that claim. > > > >It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was > when > > > >feminism (as well as integration, etc) > > > >seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. > > > >All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to > be > > > read > > > >in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. > > > >Curious what you and others think > > > > > > > >Chris > > > > > > > >On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > > > > > As I think on this one, because there have been songs that > > > have > > > > > crossed my > > > > > path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that > message!", > > > I > > > > > want to > > > > > mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this > > > > > morning. Some > > > > > research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier > than > > > women, > > > > > which is > > > > > the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies > or > > > > > something like > > > > > that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea > to > > > > > consider: > > > > > "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The > > > message I > > > > > heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to > their > > > > > husbands.... > > > > > Yuck! > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people > find > > > the most > > > > >> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to > set > > > the > > > > >> clock > > > > >> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is > for > > > Sheena > > > > >> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to > be > > > an > > > > >> anthem for > > > > >> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and > happiest > > > > >> thus....of > > > > >> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand > By > > > Your > > > > >> Man," > > > > >> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just > a > > > > >> man..." as a > > > > >> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to > > > > >> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or > > > whatever > > > > >> will be > > > > >> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. > > > > >> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill > > > > >> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > _ > > > > >> ___ > > > > >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out > free > > > AOL > > > > >> Mail! - > > > > >> http://mail.aol.com > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > > >Building a website is a piece of cake. > > > >Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release > Date: > > > 9/29/2007 9:46 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==================================================================== > ==== > ====== > > The information contained in this email and any attachment is > confidential > > and > > may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is > intended > > only for > > the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended > recipient of > > this > > email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy > this > email > > or > > any attachments. If you have received this message in error, > please > > notify the > > sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The > ABC > does > > not > > represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus > free. > > Before > > opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's > liability > > is > > limited to resupplying any email and attachments > > > > > ==================================================================== > ==== > ====== > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: > 10/3/2007 10:08 AM > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:24:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Observable Readings: Three poets... one destiny Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Poets everywhere, Check this out - http://bestof.riverfronttimes.com/bestof/award.php?award=377202 Isn't that AWESOME?? Many of you have read for Observable or contributed to a paypal campaign in the past--to you I send a special thanks. Thanks! Here are the three readers coming THIS THURSDAY NIGHT. Check out their work at their websites. If you're within striking range of St. Louis, I hope you'll come... Daniel Borzutzky http://www.danielborzutzky.com/ Peter Davis http://hitlersmustache.blogspot.com/ Richard Newman http://www.vacuumpacked.net/ + + + + + + + Schlafly Bottleworks (in Maplewood) October 4, 2007 - 8 PM - FREE For more info visit http://observable.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:30:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Celebrate Baseball Playoffs With Boog City 37 Online PDF Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, As the baseball playoffs begin today I thought I'd share the online pdf of last fall's Boog City baseball issue with all of you, many of whom haven't seen it before. (Below this note is a descrip of the issue's contents.) http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc37.pdf Best, David ------- Boog City 37 is the press's latest baseball issue. I assembled 25 poets, the number of people on a baseball roster. Each poet was then assigned a different position on the team and asked to pick anyone who had ever played their position, be they in Major League Baseball, the Negro Leagues, the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League, the minor leagues, college, the schoolyard, or anywhere else, and write a poem about them. **This issue is 50% larger than our usual size** Here's our team: Starters Pitcher George Bowering Satchel Paige Catcher Ammiel Alcalay Bob Tillman First Base Elinor Nauen Buck O'Neil Second Base Bill Luoma Robinson Cano Third Base Susan Schultz Albert Pujols Shortstop Douglas Rothschild Marty Marion Left Field Bob Holman Frank Robinson Center Field Anselm Berrigan Bernie Williams Right Field Marcella Durand Paul O'Neill Reserves Starting Pitcher Jim Behrle Fernando Valenzuela Starting Pitcher Basil King Sandy Koufax Starting Pitcher Jill Magi Laura Rose Relief Pitcher Joel Kuszai John Hiller Relief Pitcher Edmund Berrigan Jack Warhop Relief Pitcher Lee Ranaldo Hoyt Wilhelm Relief Pitcher Joanna Sondheim Steve Howe Relief Pitcher Alli Warren Rollie Fingers Closer Jean-Paul Pecqueur Kazuhiro Sasaki Catcher Spike Vrusho Jerry May 1B/OF Maureen Thorson John Olerud 2B/SS Amy King Dorothy "Dottie" Schroeder 2B/SS/3B Lauren Russell Bud Fowler LF/CF David Hadbawnik Barry Bonds CF/RF Scott MX Turner Curt Flood OF Nathaniel Siegel Glenn Burke *And baseball-themed art from Melissa Zexter.* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:28:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Danveradc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/3/2007 4:50:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, junction@EARTHLINK.NET writes: Once again, it's in the latest hard copy edition, hence not on the web yet. Worth a trip to the newstand or library (there's other good things in it that won't make your blood boil). = = == I placed a few calls and visited a few bookstores this afternoon. It's not out anywhere. Seems subscribers got the issue ahead of all the bookstores (indys and chainstores). So, for non-subscribers, we'll have to cool our jets till it's online or in our local store. Probably end of the week or next. Dan in Washington //||\\//||\\//||\\//||\\ dan vera - dan@vrzhu.com the muses never knew it could be this good.... VRZHU Press Publishing the best contemporary poetry we can get our eyes on.... _www.vrzhu.com_ (http://www.vrzhu.com/) VRZHU Bullets of Love BLOG _http://vrzhu.typepad.com_ (http://vrzhu.typepad.com/) \\//||\\//||\\//||\\//||\\// ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:38:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <4703CD13.23368.4B5816B@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit yes & ones like 'some day some road will call my name...till then I'll be your man" On 10/3/07 5:10 PM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong -- it's not the misogynist songs > that > set feminism back: those are easily discounted, and laughed at. > > Here's the song that REALLY "sets feminism back" -- it's the song that is > paradigmatic of the man who is really really sorry and has been changed by > his True Love for the woman: > > Hello Darlin' > nice to see you > its been a long time > you're just as lovely > as you used to be > > how's your new love > are you happy > hope your doin fine > just to know it > means so much to me > > what's that Darlin' > how am I doin' > guess I'm doing alright > except I cant sleep > and I cry all night 'til dawn > > what I'm trying to say > is I love you and I miss you > and Im so sorry that I did you wrong > > look up Darlin' > let me kiss you > just for old time sake > let me hold you > in my arms one more time > > thank you Darlin' > may God bless you > and may each step you take > bring you closer > to the things you seem to find > > goodbye Darlin' > gotta go now > gotta try to find a way > to lose these memories > of a love so warm and true > and if you should ever find it > in your heart to forgive me > come back Darlin' > Ill be waiting for you > > > > On 3 Oct 2007 at 14:12, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > >> has anyone mentioned Escape (the Pina Colada song) by Rupert >> Holmes? >> >> or is that one just guilty of 70s tackiness...? >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Tracey Gagne >> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 13:05 >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? >> >> Yikes!!! >> >> >> >> >> On 9/30/07, Caleb Cluff wrote: >>> >>> I've Never Been To Me >>> ( Charlene ) >>> >>> Hey lady, you lady, cursing at your life >>> You're a discontented mother and a regimented wife >>> I've no doubt you dream about the things you'll never do >>> But, I wish someone had talked to me >>> Like I wanna talk to you..... >>> >>> Oh, I've been to Georgia and California and anywhere I could run >>> I took the hand of a preacher man and we made love in the sun >>> But I ran out of places and friendly faces because I had to be >> free >>> I've been to paradise but I've never been to me >>> >>> Please lady, please lady, don't just walk away >>> 'Cause I have this need to tell you why I'm all alone today >>> I can see so much of me still living in your eyes >>> Won't you share a part of a weary heart that has lived million >> lies.... >>> >>> Oh, I've been to Nice and the Isle of Greece while I've sipped >> champagne >>> on a yacht >>> I've moved like Harlow in Monte Carlo and showed 'em what I've >> got >>> I've been undressed by kings and I've seen some things that a >> woman >>> ain't supposed to see >>> I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me >>> >>> [spoken] >>> Hey, you know what paradise is? >>> It's a lie, a fantasy we create about people and places as we'd >> like >>> them to be >>> But you know what truth is? >>> It's that little baby you're holding, it's that man you fought >> with >> this >>> morning >>> The same one you're going to make love with tonight >>> That's truth, that's love...... >>> >>> Sometimes I've been to crying for unborn children that might have >> made >>> me complete >>> But I took the sweet life, I never knew I'd be bitter from the >> sweet >>> I've spent my life exploring the subtle whoring that costs too >> much to >>> be free >>> Hey lady...... >>> I've been to paradise, (I've been to paradise) >>> But I've never been to me >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of Marcus Bales >>> Sent: Monday, 1 October 2007 8:46 AM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? >>> >>> Rolling Stones: Under My Thumb >>> >>> >>> >>> On 30 Sep 2007 at 14:45, Mark Weiss wrote: >>> >>>> My Heart Belongs to Daddy. >>>> >>>> The Leader of the Pack. >>>> >>>> How Much Is that Doggie in the Window. >>>> >>>> Though it's probably a good idea to remember that feminism is >> an >>>> ism, >>>> female is a gender. >>>> >>>> But oh well. "Soldier Soldier Will You Marry Me" and the >> hundreds of >>>> songs with the same punchline. >>>> >>>> Lord Randall. >>>> Barbry Allen. >>>> >>>> At 11:52 AM 9/30/2007, you wrote: >>>>> She put a spell on me. According to the data, I'm the most >>>> miserable >>>>> man in America. >>>>> >>>>> Chris Stroffolino wrote: >> Tracey---thanks >>>>> for bringing that up. I definitely see your point, >>>>> and as a male I may not be the most qualified to weigh in on >> this >>>> issue, >>>>> but I would like to propose another interpretation to that >>>> message. >>>>> If it's true, that statistics can show that American women in >>>> general >>>>> are less happy now than they were in the 70s (which is >> certainly >>>>> debatable, >>>>> but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand), it's also >> possible >>>> that >>>>> American males are less happy now than they were in the 70s, >>>>> and in the sense the message can be interpreted less as a >>>> divisive >>>>> gender issue, >>>>> but more as an issue that many of the other cultural changes >> that >>>>> occurred since then (27 years of a Reagan revolution, etc) >>>>> have trumped the hard-won liberation struggles that came to a >> head >>>> in >>>>> the 55-75 era. >>>>> Somewhere I have a citation for a study (which I tend to find >>>> rings >>>>> true) that makes that claim. >>>>> It's interesting they say the seventies, being that that was >> when >>>>> feminism (as well as integration, etc) >>>>> seemed to be most embraced by pop-culture. >>>>> All I'm saying is I don't think that study necessarily has to >> be >>>> read >>>>> in a way that supports a backlash against feminism. >>>>> Curious what you and others think >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Tracey Gagne wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As I think on this one, because there have been songs that >>>> have >>>>>> crossed my >>>>>> path where I've said, "Ooh! Yikes! Don't like that >> message!", >>>> I >>>>>> want to >>>>>> mention what I heard on the radio on my way into work this >>>>>> morning. Some >>>>>> research discovered that men, on the whole, are happier >> than >>>> women, >>>>>> which is >>>>>> the opposite of when this was last done in the seventies >> or >>>>>> something like >>>>>> that. One of the radio personalities gave us all the idea >> to >>>>>> consider: >>>>>> "Have women's lib and equality made women less happy?" The >>>> message I >>>>>> heard-- women were happier when they were subservient to >> their >>>>>> husbands.... >>>>>> Yuck! >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Tracey >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 9/28/07, W.B. Keckler wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Was just trying to compile a list of songs which people >> find >>>> the most >>>>>>> offensive vis-a-vis women and those which are perceived to >> set >>>> the >>>>>>> clock >>>>>>> back the furthest on feminism/equality?? My first vote is >> for >>>> Sheena >>>>>>> Easton's "(My Baby Takes)The Morning Train," which seems to >> be >>>> an >>>>>>> anthem for >>>>>>> those who feel women are parasitic sex bunnies and >> happiest >>>>>>> thus....of >>>>>>> course there are the so-called obvious songs like "Stand >> By >>>> Your >>>>>>> Man," >>>>>>> although I always focused on the line "After all, he's just >> a >>>>>>> man..." as a >>>>>>> very funny condescending line...any suggestions? send to >>>>>>> Bewitjanus@aol.com and the final top ten or twenty or >>>> whatever >>>>>>> will be >>>>>>> blog-logged at Joe Brainard's Pyjamas (www. >>>>>>> joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com)?...merci. Bill >>>>>>> >>>> >> ____________________________________________________________________ >>>> _ >>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out >> free >>>> AOL >>>>>>> Mail! - >>>>>>> http://mail.aol.com >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------- >>>>> Building a website is a piece of cake. >>>>> Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release >> Date: >>>> 9/29/2007 9:46 PM >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ==================================================================== >> ==== >> ====== >>> The information contained in this email and any attachment is >> confidential >>> and >>> may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is >> intended >>> only for >>> the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended >> recipient of >>> this >>> email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy >> this >> email >>> or >>> any attachments. If you have received this message in error, >> please >>> notify the >>> sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The >> ABC >> does >>> not >>> represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus >> free. >>> Before >>> opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's >> liability >>> is >>> limited to resupplying any email and attachments >>> >>> >> ==================================================================== >> ==== >> ====== >>> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: >> 10/3/2007 10:08 AM >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:20:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable my wife and I joke about "waiting by the phone for him to call me" songs (aka, songs of the doormat), of which the sine qua non example is Vicki Carr's It Must Be Him:=20 It Must Be Him I tell myself what's done is done I tell myself don't be a fool Play the field have a lot of fun It's easy when you play it cool I tell myself don't be a chump Who cares, let him stay away That's when the phone rings and I jump And as I grab the phone I pray Let it please be him, oh dear God It must be him or I shall die Or I shall die Oh hello, hello my dear God It must be him but it's not him And then I die That's when I die After a while, I'm myself again I take the pieces off the floor Put my heart on the shelf again You'll never hurt me anymore I'm not a puppet on a string I'll find somebody else someday That's when the phone rings, and once again I start to pray .... -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Ruth Lepson Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 16:39 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? yes & ones like 'some day some road will call my name...till then I'll be your man" On 10/3/07 5:10 PM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong -- it's not the misogynist songs > that=20 > set feminism back: those are easily discounted, and laughed at. >=20 > Here's the song that REALLY "sets feminism back" -- it's the song that is > paradigmatic of the man who is really really sorry and has been changed by > his True Love for the woman: >=20 > Hello Darlin' > nice to see you > its been a long time > you're just as lovely > as you used to be >=20 > how's your new love > are you happy > hope your doin fine > just to know it > means so much to me >=20 > what's that Darlin' > how am I doin' > guess I'm doing alright > except I cant sleep > and I cry all night 'til dawn >=20 > what I'm trying to say > is I love you and I miss you > and Im so sorry that I did you wrong >=20 > look up Darlin' > let me kiss you > just for old time sake > let me hold you > in my arms one more time >=20 > thank you Darlin' > may God bless you > and may each step you take > bring you closer > to the things you seem to find >=20 > goodbye Darlin' > gotta go now > gotta try to find a way > to lose these memories > of a love so warm and true > and if you should ever find it > in your heart to forgive me > come back Darlin' > Ill be waiting for you >=20 >=20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 20:09:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0EE69F17@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, of course "waiting by the phone for him to call" songs are a very different category from "I'm sorry I done you wrong" songs. Which one would you say "sets feminism back" within the meaning of the phrase as it's coming clear in this discussion? Marcus On 3 Oct 2007 at 17:20, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > my wife and I joke about "waiting by the phone for him to call me" > songs > (aka, songs of the doormat), of which the sine qua non example is > Vicki > Carr's It Must Be Him: > > It Must Be Him > > I tell myself what's done is done > I tell myself don't be a fool > Play the field have a lot of fun > It's easy when you play it cool > > I tell myself don't be a chump > Who cares, let him stay away > That's when the phone rings and I jump > And as I grab the phone I pray > > Let it please be him, oh dear God > It must be him or I shall die > Or I shall die > Oh hello, hello my dear God > It must be him but it's not him > And then I die > That's when I die > > After a while, I'm myself again > I take the pieces off the floor > Put my heart on the shelf again > You'll never hurt me anymore > > I'm not a puppet on a string > I'll find somebody else someday > That's when the phone rings, and once again > I start to pray > > .... > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Ruth Lepson > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 16:39 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? > > yes & ones like 'some day some road will call my name...till then > I'll > be > your man" > > > On 10/3/07 5:10 PM, "Marcus Bales" > wrote: > > > Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong -- it's not the > misogynist > songs > > that > > set feminism back: those are easily discounted, and laughed at. > > > > Here's the song that REALLY "sets feminism back" -- it's the song > that > is > > paradigmatic of the man who is really really sorry and has been > changed by > > his True Love for the woman: > > > > Hello Darlin' > > nice to see you > > its been a long time > > you're just as lovely > > as you used to be > > > > how's your new love > > are you happy > > hope your doin fine > > just to know it > > means so much to me > > > > what's that Darlin' > > how am I doin' > > guess I'm doing alright > > except I cant sleep > > and I cry all night 'til dawn > > > > what I'm trying to say > > is I love you and I miss you > > and Im so sorry that I did you wrong > > > > look up Darlin' > > let me kiss you > > just for old time sake > > let me hold you > > in my arms one more time > > > > thank you Darlin' > > may God bless you > > and may each step you take > > bring you closer > > to the things you seem to find > > > > goodbye Darlin' > > gotta go now > > gotta try to find a way > > to lose these memories > > of a love so warm and true > > and if you should ever find it > > in your heart to forgive me > > come back Darlin' > > Ill be waiting for you > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: > 10/3/2007 10:08 AM > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 20:02:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: [smallpressers] canadian poetry book index Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I didn't know this. Begin forwarded message: > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: az421@freenet.carleton.ca >> Date: October 3, 2007 3:38:38 PM CDT >> To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca >> Subject: [smallpressers] canadian poetry book index >> Reply-To: smallpressers@yahoogroups.com >> >> i was floating through the internet, & realized that there are the >> entire >> texts of some 60s 70s 80s etc canadian poetry books online? fred >> wah's >> 'breathin' my name with a sigh,' bowering's 'points on the grid,' >> victor >> coleman's 'light verse,' etc; extremely cool (although many of you >> probably already knew this). >> >> http://www.ccca.ca/history/ozz/english/books/index.html >> >> see rob. see rob learn. >> >> yr western pal, >> rob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 18:37:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: richard owens Subject: U Buffalo Poetics Plus Fall 2007 events In-Reply-To: <448286.99676.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ALLEN FISHER visiting the University at Buffalo as Poet-in-Residence Oct. 9 - 11! Tues. Oct. 9 Poet-in-Residence ALLEN FISHER. Reading 1pm Poetry Collection 420 Capen Hall 4pm Seminar 1 438 Clemens Hall Wed. Oct. 10 Seminar 2. 12.30 pm 438 Clemens Hall Thurs. Oct. 11. Seminar 3. 4pm 438 Clemens Hall Allen Fisher is a poet, painter, publisher, teacher and performance artist who has been writing poetry since 1962. He has produced over a hundred and twenty five chapbooks, books of poetry, graphics, art documentation and essays. Among his major project sequences are Place (1971-80) and Gravity as a consequence of shape (started in the 1980s). A former Head of Academic Affairs at the Herefordshire College of Art & Design, he is now Professor of Poetry and Head of Contemporary Art at Manchester Metropolitan University. His paintings are represented in the collections of the Tate Gallery, London and in the Living Museum, Iceland. He edits the magazine Spanner. FORTHCOMING EVENTS: Fri. Oct. 19 TIMOTHY DONNELLY Reading. 7.30pm The Cinema, Hallwall’s 341 Delaware Ave. Timothy Donnelly has been poetry editor of Boston Review since 1995. His first book of poems, Twenty-seven Props for a Production of Eine Lebenszeit, was published by Grove Press in 2003. His poems have appeared in numerous magazines and journals, including American Letters & Commentary, TriQuartely and The Literary Review. His poems have in such anthologies as Joyful Noise: An Anthology of American Spiritual Poetry, and Legitimate Dangers: American Poets of the New Century. He is Acting Director of Poetry in Writing Division of Columbia University’s School of the Arts and lives in Brooklyn, New York. Fri. Nov. 9. The OSCAR SILVERMAN READING: ROBERT HAAS 8pm 250 Baird Hall, UB North Campus. For more information phone UB English Dept. 716.645.2575 ex. 1015 Thurs. Nov. 15. NATHANIEL MACKEY. Reading 7pm The Cinema, Hallwall’s 341 Delaware Ave. Poet, critic and literary theorist Nathaniel Mackey is the author of numerous chapbooks and collections of poetry including Splay Anthem (which won the 2006 National Book Award in Poetry); Whatsaid Serif (1998); Song of the Andoumboulou: 18-20 (1994) and Eroding Witness (1985), which was selected for the National Poetry Series. He is also the author of an ongoing prose work, From A Broken Bottle Traces of Perfume Still Emanate, of which three volumes have been published, and Discrepant Engagement: Dissonance, Cross-Culturality, and Experimental Writing (1993). He is co-editor of American Poetry: The Twentieth Century (2000). Mackey is Professor of Literature at the University of California, Santa Cruz. This event is jointly sponsored with Exhibit-X. Wed. Dec. 5. PAUL HOOVER. Reading 7.30pm The Cinema, Hallwall’s 341 Delaware Ave. Paul Hoover is the author of eleven collections of poetry, a novel and a collection of literary essays most recently Edge and Fold, Poems in Spanish, and Winter Mirror. He serves as curator of a new poetry series at the DeYoung Museum of Art, San Francisco. He is the recipient of the Jerome J. Shestack Award for the best poems to appear in the American Poetry Review, the Carl Sandburg Award, and the l984 General Electric Foundation Award for Younger Writers. Hoover also edited the Norton anthology of Postmodern American Poetry, 1994. His translations of Friedrich Holderlin, with Maxine Chernoff is forthcoming from Omnidawn. ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 22:11:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: New at E-X-C-H-A-N-G-E-V-A-L-U-E-S... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit an interview with Noah Eli Gordon by Thomas Fink. It is here: http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:17:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gfrym@EARTHLINK.NET Subject: Re: U Buffalo Poetics Plus Fall 2007 events MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, Allen,Timothy,Robert, Nathaniel,Paul All good,but don't any girls want to read at your school? Gloria ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard owens" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: U Buffalo Poetics Plus Fall 2007 events > ALLEN FISHER visiting the University at Buffalo as Poet-in-Residence Oct. > 9 - 11! > > Tues. Oct. 9 Poet-in-Residence ALLEN FISHER. Reading 1pm Poetry Collection > 420 Capen Hall 4pm Seminar 1 438 Clemens Hall > > Wed. Oct. 10 Seminar 2. 12.30 pm 438 Clemens Hall > > Thurs. Oct. 11. Seminar 3. 4pm 438 Clemens Hall Allen Fisher is a poet, > painter, publisher, teacher and performance artist who has been writing > poetry since 1962. He has produced over a hundred and twenty five > chapbooks, books of poetry, graphics, art documentation and essays. Among > his major project sequences are Place (1971-80) and Gravity as a > consequence of shape (started in the 1980s). > > A former Head of Academic Affairs at the Herefordshire College of Art & > Design, he is now Professor of Poetry and Head of Contemporary Art at > Manchester Metropolitan University. His paintings are represented in the > collections of the Tate Gallery, London and in the Living Museum, Iceland. > He edits the magazine Spanner. > > FORTHCOMING EVENTS: > > Fri. Oct. 19 TIMOTHY DONNELLY Reading. 7.30pm The Cinema, Hallwall's 341 > Delaware Ave. Timothy Donnelly has been poetry editor of Boston Review > since 1995. His first book of poems, Twenty-seven Props for a Production > of Eine Lebenszeit, was published by Grove Press in 2003. His poems have > appeared in numerous magazines and journals, including American Letters & > Commentary, TriQuartely and The Literary Review. His poems have in such > anthologies as Joyful Noise: An Anthology of American Spiritual Poetry, > and Legitimate Dangers: American Poets of the New Century. He is Acting > Director of Poetry in Writing Division of Columbia University's School of > the Arts and lives in Brooklyn, New York. > > Fri. Nov. 9. The OSCAR SILVERMAN READING: ROBERT HAAS 8pm 250 Baird Hall, > UB North Campus. For more information phone UB English Dept. 716.645.2575 > ex. 1015 > > Thurs. Nov. 15. NATHANIEL MACKEY. Reading 7pm The Cinema, Hallwall's 341 > Delaware Ave. Poet, critic and literary theorist Nathaniel Mackey is the > author of numerous chapbooks and collections of poetry including Splay > Anthem (which won the 2006 National Book Award in Poetry); Whatsaid Serif > (1998); Song of the Andoumboulou: 18-20 (1994) and Eroding Witness (1985), > which was selected for the National Poetry Series. He is also the author > of an ongoing prose work, From A Broken Bottle Traces of Perfume Still > Emanate, of which three volumes have been published, and Discrepant > Engagement: Dissonance, Cross-Culturality, and Experimental Writing > (1993). He is co-editor of American Poetry: The Twentieth Century (2000). > Mackey is Professor of Literature at the University of California, Santa > Cruz. This event is jointly sponsored with Exhibit-X. > > Wed. Dec. 5. PAUL HOOVER. Reading 7.30pm The Cinema, Hallwall's 341 > Delaware Ave. Paul Hoover is the author of eleven collections of poetry, a > novel and a collection of literary essays most recently Edge and Fold, > Poems in Spanish, and Winter Mirror. He serves as curator of a new poetry > series at the DeYoung Museum of Art, San Francisco. He is the recipient of > the Jerome J. Shestack Award for the best poems to appear in the American > Poetry Review, the Carl Sandburg Award, and the l984 General Electric > Foundation Award for > Younger Writers. Hoover also edited the Norton anthology of Postmodern > American Poetry, 1994. His translations of Friedrich Holderlin, with > Maxine Chernoff is forthcoming from Omnidawn. > > > ........richard owens > 810 richmond ave > buffalo NY 14222-1167 > > > damn the caesars, the journal > damn the caesars, the blog > > --------------------------------- > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 22:25:22 -0400 Reply-To: arippeon@buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rippeon Subject: P-Queue (vol. 5): Call for Work Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 ******************* ******************* P-Queue: Call for Work P-Queue is a SUNY Buffalo-based journal of poetry and poetics, and we are c= urrently seeking submissions for our 2008 volume. P-Queue is=20 interested in 'hybrid' work=E2=80=94what toggles between poetry & prose, cr= itical & creative, "academic" & "non-academic," the visual & the written.= =20 For Vol. 5 (the first in our second series!), we're especially interested i= n the question of "care." To this end, we'll be more inclined to consider collaborations, conversatio= ns, collocations, correspondences, and the like. These are of course loosel= y=20 and widely interpretable, but what we want is a representation of ways of b= eing together in language, ways of being in language together.=20 Consider:=20 -selections from letters ('literary' or otherwise) -conversations (recorded, repeated, replayed, etc.) -collaboration: in composition, in editing: work that widens the scene of = writing, the scene of reading -collocation: the prosodic or the rhetorical: work that calls us to it, ca= lls us together, to space created And as always, we=E2=80=99re looking to question genre and convention (and = to question the _questioning_ of genre & convention!). Our covers are (lovingly, care-fully) letterpressed, the journal often incl= ude images and 'manipulated' texts, and we pride ourselves on the=20 appearance of the publication. P-Queue is published annually (the 2008 year= book will appear in Summer 08). To receive full consideration, please try= =20 to submit work by Jan. 1. www.p-queue.org ****************** ****************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 21:50:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sarah Rosenthal Subject: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 01:09:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Sonnet for low tide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sonnet for low tide -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 22:41:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sarah Rosenthal Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PS, BTW, I failed to mention in my list an obvious choice--Dana Teen Lomax and Jennifer Firestone's forthcoming collection Letters to Poets, which features correspondence between "emerging" and "established" poets--a project which revivifies the letter form and brings it to bear on contemporary poetics in exciting ways.... Sarah Rosenthal wrote: Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 02:35:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: a poet's invitation to a Thanksgiving Day Fast for Iraq /\\///\\\\/////\\\\\\///////\\\\\\\\///////// MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline a poet's invitation to a Thanksgiving Day Fast for Iraq /\\///\\\\/////\\\\\\///////\\\\\\\\///////// For the details, please go here: http://ThanksgivingDayFast.blogspot.com Thank you for considering joining the protest, CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 07:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Press & Journal Subject: 2 NEW BOOKS, 3 Authors, 1 Artist: Joyelle McSweeney, Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson, Noah Saterstrom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now available from Tarpaulin Sky Press: NYLUND, THE SARCOGRAPHER, by Joyelle McSweeney FIGURES FOR A DARKROOM VOICE, by Noah Eli Gordon & Joshua Marie Wilkinson, with images by Noah Saterstrom NYLUND, THE SARCOGRAPHER by Joyelle McSweeney Fiction. 5"x7", 132 pages ISBN: 978-0-9779019-4-4 http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/McSweeney/index.html NYLUND, THE SARCOGRAPHER, McSweeney's first full-length work of fiction, is a baroque noir. Its eponymous protagonist is a loner who tries to comprehend everything from the outside, like a sarcophagus, and with analogously ornate results. The method by which the book was written, and by which Nylund experiences the world, is thus called sarcography. Sarcography is like negative capability on steroids; this ultra-susceptibility entangles Nylund in both a murder plot and a plot regarding his missing sister, Daisy. As the murder plot places Nylund in increasing physical danger, his sensuous memories become more present than the present itself. "If Vladimir Nabokov wanted to seduce Nancy Drew, he'd read her NYLUND one dark afternoon over teacups of whiskey. Welcome to fiction's new femme fatale, Joyelle McSweeney." -Kate Bernheimer, editor of Fairy Tale Review and the author of The Complete Tales of Ketzia Gold and The Complete Tales of Merry Gold "If Wallace Stevens had written a novel it might have come close to Joyelle McSweeney's NYLUND, THE SARCOGRAPHER. But any imagined effort of Mr. Stevens would pale next to Nylund's journey through the butterflied joinery of syntax, the jerry-rigged joy of this tour de joist. And you thought you knew your own language. This book hands it back to you on a platter and includes the instructional manual for its further use." -Michael Martone, author of Michael Martone Joyelle McSweeney is the author of The Red Bird and The Commandrine and Other Poems, both from Fence. She is a co-founder and co-editor of Action Books and Action, Yes, a press and web quarterly for international writing and hybrid forms. She writes regular reviews for Rain Taxi, The Constant Critic, and other venues and teaches in the MFA Program at Notre Dame. Her next book will be the science fiction novel Flet, forthcoming from Fence in late 2007. FIGURES FOR A DARKROOM VOICE by Noah Eli Gordon & Joshua Marie Wilkinson with images by Noah Saterstrom ISBN: 978-0-9779019-5-1 Poetry. 5.5" x 7", 94 pages http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Figures/index.html In FIGURES FOR A DARKROOM VOICE the rhetorical twisting of Noah Eli Gordon's abstractions meld with the ominous narratives of Joshua Marie Wilkinson's fragments, turning Wallace Steven's notion of a supreme fiction toward a supreme friction, one where the work of these two poets is fused into a voice as singular as it is sinister. Imagine a gallery in which Cornell boxes talk back, a Maya Deren film in which the audience dissolves into projector light, a Philip Glass composition played exclusively on medieval weaponry, such are the compelling results of this collaborative work. In prose poems, syntactically elusive sonnets, and haunting, haiku-like fragments illuminated by the ink drawings of Noah Saterstrom, one encounters a recurring cast of logically-skewed images, inauspicious yet arresting aphorisms, and characters rendered fully bizarre in the lightest of brushstrokes. Here, the slippage and disruptions of textually investigative work collides with the mind-expanding project of conjuring paradox, while never quite leaving linearity behind. When these poets write, "I am trying to draw you a simple picture of explanation," one realizes the monumental nature of such a task. And this task is made more complex, and ultimately more rewarding, by the inclusion of Noah Saterstrom's dynamic images. "Who," Gordon and Wilkinson ask, "operates the levers in this darkroom dress-shop?" Who, indeed! The rich history of literary collaboration just got richer. These two guys tell us, "There is nothing that summer can do to us That we could not ourselves develop in the basement" so we know "the sleepwalkers enter a swimming pool With their haggings& black dresses," "raising private horses" Therefore it's true "What mammal wouldn't want its own vibrant egg?" They glitter. This book glitters. -Tomaz Salamun NOAH ELI GORDON is the author of Novel Pictorial Noise (Harper Perennial, 2007; selected by John for the National Poetry Series), A Fiddle Pulled from the Throat of a Sparrow (New Issues, 2007), Inbox (BlazeVOX, 2006), The Area of Sound Called the Subtone (Ahsahta, 2004), and The Frequencies (Tougher Disguises, 2003), as well as numerous chapbooks, including That We Come to a Consensus (Ugly Duckling Presse, 2005; in collaboration with Sara Veglahn). NOAH SATERSTROM has exhibited paintings, drawings, projects, and installations nationally and internationally. The recipient of grants and residencies, he also does numerous collaborations with writers and musicians. Recent publications include The Denver Quarterly and Tarpaulin Sky. With Selah Saterstrom he curates Slab Projects, a series of ongoing investigations which generate public works in the New Orleans and Gulf Coast region. JOSHUA MARIE WILKINSON is the author of Suspension of a Secret in Abandoned Rooms (Pinball, 2005), Lug Your Careless Body out of the Careful Dusk (U of Iowa, 2006), and The Book of Whispering in the Projection Booth (forthcoming from Tupelo Press). He holds a PhD from University of Denver and lives in Chicago where he teaches at Loyola University. His first film, Made a Machine by Describing the Landscape, is due out next year. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:01:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Kress Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Maybe I'm missing something here, but what about: Olson, Mayan Letters Goethe,Sorrows of Young Werther Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet Thomas McGrath, Letters to an Imaginary Friend Leonard Kress Leonard Kress Associate Professor Communications/Humanities www.harrowgatepress.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 05:35:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sarah--- Four Unposted Letters To Catherine, Laura Riding....or maybe the reprint is under Laura (Riding) Jackson. I think it's still in print... C On Oct 3, 2007, at 9:50 PM, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a > course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in > fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by > writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material > that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that > claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm > going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter > form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and > single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about > epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done > epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs > to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 05:48:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: richard owens Subject: Re: U Buffalo Poetics Plus Fall 2007 events In-Reply-To: <009b01c8062c$aa2665f0$6501a8c0@VAIO> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit GLORIA: i'm delighted you pointed this out. last week Frances Kruk, Sophie Robinson, Kai Fierle-Hedrick both visited & read to two wonderfully large audiences. as both are younger you may not be familiar with them. while Frances is rooted in potatoes, Sophie's currently at Royal Holloway. Kai's work appears in Brit po issue of CR. Frances & Sophie connected to Yt Communications. as for the Poetics Plus calendar, Harriet Mullen was scheduled to read this term but had to cancel. she's planning to visit in spring -- among a number of other women poets. but thanks for the heads-up. good to be on the lookout. rich... gfrym@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: Richard, Allen,Timothy,Robert, Nathaniel,Paul All good,but don't any girls want to read at your school? Gloria ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard owens" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: U Buffalo Poetics Plus Fall 2007 events > ALLEN FISHER visiting the University at Buffalo as Poet-in-Residence Oct. > 9 - 11! > > Tues. Oct. 9 Poet-in-Residence ALLEN FISHER. Reading 1pm Poetry Collection > 420 Capen Hall 4pm Seminar 1 438 Clemens Hall > > Wed. Oct. 10 Seminar 2. 12.30 pm 438 Clemens Hall > > Thurs. Oct. 11. Seminar 3. 4pm 438 Clemens Hall Allen Fisher is a poet, > painter, publisher, teacher and performance artist who has been writing > poetry since 1962. He has produced over a hundred and twenty five > chapbooks, books of poetry, graphics, art documentation and essays. Among > his major project sequences are Place (1971-80) and Gravity as a > consequence of shape (started in the 1980s). > > A former Head of Academic Affairs at the Herefordshire College of Art & > Design, he is now Professor of Poetry and Head of Contemporary Art at > Manchester Metropolitan University. His paintings are represented in the > collections of the Tate Gallery, London and in the Living Museum, Iceland. > He edits the magazine Spanner. > > FORTHCOMING EVENTS: > > Fri. Oct. 19 TIMOTHY DONNELLY Reading. 7.30pm The Cinema, Hallwall's 341 > Delaware Ave. Timothy Donnelly has been poetry editor of Boston Review > since 1995. His first book of poems, Twenty-seven Props for a Production > of Eine Lebenszeit, was published by Grove Press in 2003. His poems have > appeared in numerous magazines and journals, including American Letters & > Commentary, TriQuartely and The Literary Review. His poems have in such > anthologies as Joyful Noise: An Anthology of American Spiritual Poetry, > and Legitimate Dangers: American Poets of the New Century. He is Acting > Director of Poetry in Writing Division of Columbia University's School of > the Arts and lives in Brooklyn, New York. > > Fri. Nov. 9. The OSCAR SILVERMAN READING: ROBERT HAAS 8pm 250 Baird Hall, > UB North Campus. For more information phone UB English Dept. 716.645.2575 > ex. 1015 > > Thurs. Nov. 15. NATHANIEL MACKEY. Reading 7pm The Cinema, Hallwall's 341 > Delaware Ave. Poet, critic and literary theorist Nathaniel Mackey is the > author of numerous chapbooks and collections of poetry including Splay > Anthem (which won the 2006 National Book Award in Poetry); Whatsaid Serif > (1998); Song of the Andoumboulou: 18-20 (1994) and Eroding Witness (1985), > which was selected for the National Poetry Series. He is also the author > of an ongoing prose work, From A Broken Bottle Traces of Perfume Still > Emanate, of which three volumes have been published, and Discrepant > Engagement: Dissonance, Cross-Culturality, and Experimental Writing > (1993). He is co-editor of American Poetry: The Twentieth Century (2000). > Mackey is Professor of Literature at the University of California, Santa > Cruz. This event is jointly sponsored with Exhibit-X. > > Wed. Dec. 5. PAUL HOOVER. Reading 7.30pm The Cinema, Hallwall's 341 > Delaware Ave. Paul Hoover is the author of eleven collections of poetry, a > novel and a collection of literary essays most recently Edge and Fold, > Poems in Spanish, and Winter Mirror. He serves as curator of a new poetry > series at the DeYoung Museum of Art, San Francisco. He is the recipient of > the Jerome J. Shestack Award for the best poems to appear in the American > Poetry Review, the Carl Sandburg Award, and the l984 General Electric > Foundation Award for > Younger Writers. Hoover also edited the Norton anthology of Postmodern > American Poetry, 1994. His translations of Friedrich Holderlin, with > Maxine Chernoff is forthcoming from Omnidawn. > > > ........richard owens > 810 richmond ave > buffalo NY 14222-1167 > > > damn the caesars, the journal > damn the caesars, the blog > > --------------------------------- > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 07:57:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's always Montesquieu's "The Persian Letters", which has to be one of the earlier examples. The book of Paul is essentially epistolary though not sure it's a brand of literature you're after. And, something I noticed again rereading Liebnitz the other day, most enlightenment and early modern philosophy transpired by letter and usually begins with a dedication to the receiver, which is the place where the author's consciousness about the politics of his writing usually surfaces. Machiavelli and More are particularly obvious examples (though in the case of More it becomes a dialogue embedded in a letter). Just open up any good edition of either of those two, or Descartes or Liebnitz or Hume and you'll usually find someone to whom the work was explicitly addressed hope any of that helps, Dillon On Oct 3, 2007, at 11:50 PM, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a > course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in > fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by > writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material > that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that > claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm > going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter > form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and > single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about > epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done > epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs > to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:07:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Suzanne Burns Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <46FFEEF3.32735.1DA1479@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 9/30/07, Marcus Bales wrote: > > Rolling Stones: Under My Thumb I always argue with that one though-- it does have one critical bit of lyric "Instead of me..." which implies that the speaker felt that he was under her thumb at one point. So I just see it as a song about very human power struggles. I also agree that Stand by Your Man is rife with irony. I have no problem with it. My vote would be for "American Woman"-- I really HATE that song. And could we pick the recent and very obvious "Humps"? Bleh. Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:12:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Horace is always a source. Gerald S. > PS, BTW, I failed to mention in my list an obvious choice--Dana Teen Lomax > and Jennifer Firestone's forthcoming collection Letters to Poets, which > features correspondence between "emerging" and "established" poets--a > project which revivifies the letter form and brings it to bear on > contemporary poetics in exciting ways.... > > Sarah Rosenthal wrote: Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as > well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and > poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form > obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look > like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York > School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact > the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, > and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about > epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in > one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free > to backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:33:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <47049DF00200004C0000D42A@destiny.owens.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bernadette mayer, the desire of mothers to please others in letters Leonard Kress wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something here, but what about: > > Olson, Mayan Letters > Goethe,Sorrows of Young Werther > Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet > Thomas McGrath, Letters to an Imaginary Friend > > Leonard Kress > > > > Leonard Kress > Associate Professor > Communications/Humanities > www.harrowgatepress.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 07:12:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: pj harvey/ l(r)j, etc... In-Reply-To: <974807.3205.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit maybe relevant to some of the discussion... Around the time of PJ Harvey's "Sheela-Na-Gig" (which some call a feminist pop-song, and some call an assimilationalist compromise-), ah, but it rocks (in more than one sense of that word!), I found this book by Laura (Riding) Jackson, largely written in the early 1930s but not published until 1993. Here's a quote from it: "Woman, because she is an absolute, unindividualistic being, can only get a sense of her difference from man through man's sense of her as something different. But for this sense she must go to man's feelings, not to his reason: to the evidence of her actual impact on him. Man's reason tells nothing about woman; it is an attempt to integrate itself, merely, and by suppressing evidence of what differs....But man's reason is not perception-proof; it is shot through with involuntary reactions to experience. And it is these reactions alone which can provide accurate information about woman as an observable phenomenon, and which we must be careful to separate from rational statements about woman. And when the rational statement is made by a woman it is likely to be more false to the nature of woman than when made by a man: because a woman has no external experience of herself which might discredit the statement, while a man cannot but supply, along with the rational statement about woman, a reaction that contradicts it. (77, 78...) earlier she writes men invented feminism (pg. 53)... Chris Oh, since I'm out of POSTS for today, a PS to SARAH ROSENTHAL, another book you may want to include an excerpt of for your class would be GARY SULLIVAN and NADA GORDON'S "SWOON"----based largely on an email correspondence. C ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:49:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Grant Jenkins Subject: Reminder: Art Opening, Thursday Oct 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Wa-KOW! Collective *Grant Jenkins, Nathan Halverson, David Goldstein and Mindy Stricke * invites you to the premiere of *Holy/Oil * at Living Arts of Tulsa Combining poetry, photography, and sound, Holy/Oil is a video installation that explores the intersections of oil and religion in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Where: 308 S. Kenosha Ave, Tulsa, OK When: Opening: 5-8 p.m., Thursday, Oct. 4. Artists' talk and showing: 6:30 p.m. Refreshments and libations will be served. Holy/Oil runs through October 25. wa_kow@yahoo.com -- G. Matthew Jenkins Director of the Writing Program Faculty of English Language & Literature The University of Tulsa Tulsa, OK 74104 918.631.2573 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Sarah...I didn't read the ones after your post so if i'm being pleonastic i apologize...of course Richardson...you allude to New York School....Berrigan of course comes to mind with his most famous work; then there's that unusual book about weird psychic coincidences, synchronicity,?where the artist/protag ?is seemingly "linked" to someone on the other side of the world who is writing to him...I forget the name of that one..it's lavishly illustrated and the letters are presented in facsimile form, often in little envelopes glued into the book...is Sheila Murphy's Letters book meant to be interpreted literally vis-a-vis those poems? Does Rilke count? Well you did say fiction or poetry....would you consider posthumous letters such as Catullus to his brother? Philip Whalen also has a shiv of a letter (a poem)?written to his dead mother....very moving....it's in the Selected with the great opening essay by Scalapino... -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Rosenthal To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:50 am Subject: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The list seems somewhat random, though mostly very recent. What are your boundaries? There are thousands of possible texts: it's a very old form--Eloise and Abelard, for instance, and it was a dominant form for the novel in England and France in the 18th century--Richardson, Laclos, Rousseau, etc. Letters themselves, as in your mention of Dickinson--what about St Paul? Mark At 12:50 AM 10/4/2007, you wrote: >Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a > course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in > fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by > writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material > that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that > claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm > going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter > form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and > single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about > epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done > epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs > to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 07:51:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One thing that occurs to me here, though I haven't read it yet, is that a new volume of correspondence between Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov has recently been published. Are there any epistolary poems in it? I can't say. Regards, Tom Savage Sarah Rosenthal wrote: Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:51:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Sondheim effect* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The Sondheim effect* Working with film twenty years ago, I discovered that if stereographs (which are mostly late 19th-early 20th century photographs viewed through a stereoscope, giving the viewer a three-dimensional image) were rephoto- graphed on movie film, alternating left and right - upon projection, a three-dimensional effect was clearly visible, even though both eyes perceived the left and right viewpoint. In traditional stereoscopy, the left eye perceives the left-taken image, and the right perceives the right-taken one. In other words the three-dimensionality is synchronic- ally, spatially, encoded and the mind reconstitutes the scene. In the Sondheim effect, the encoding is diachronic; both eyes perceive both images in quick (16-24 fps) alternation. The result should be 'something' like a back-and-forth shuddering, which does occur, but it is accompanied by a three-dimensional illusion which has varying degrees of depth, depending on the original image - clear foreground/background information tends towards the greatest illusion. (It's been pointed out many times that it's possible to create depth by watching a soccer game, for example, with a slightly dark neutral density filter over one eye. This creates a small processing lag, so each eye processes at a different rate, hence is reading slightly different images from the playing field. Now if the ball moves horizontal- ly, it's seen simultaneously in two different positions, against a more or less constant background, and appears, again slightly, to jump out from the screen.) In three-dimensional unpacking, the mind fills in synchronic or diachronic digital information - discrete images - to recreate the plenitude of the real, in a sense 'being there.' Think of this as a gestural operating - given limited information, filling in the blanks, as if vision were active (which it is) and gestural, as if vision originated primarily from the perceiver. (This is clear in vision studies, the work of Marr decades ago, color vision theory, etc.) Since the analogic is fundamentally continuous, 'of the real,' it might also be considered, in this case (and the case of color theory etc.) a kind of suture or bandaging - what are really, inherently, disparate images - either from photographs or from perception of physical reality - are combined into a simulacrum of a continuum of spatial depth. Stereo- graphs are an example of a production involving simultaneity (space); alternation is an example involving succession (time). This is of course far too neat and I'm positive would break down on the cog-psych or neuro- physiological level. So the Sondheim effect in this regard is nothing more than a curiosity, the sort of thing one might read in Mind Hacks. On the other hand, the idea that succession can imply a re-reading or reconsti- tution of simultaneity has interesting phenomenological implications, as anyone familiar with Husserl on internal time-consciousness knows. The following video has the _slightest_ Sondheim effect among the runners; and even when trying, I've never been able to get the sharpness necessary to reproduce it in video at all. Now with HD, it should be easy to do and it would be interesting to see the results of a complete narrative movie presented in such a manner - would the shuddering finally become invisible as vision synchronized itself to temporal collapse? http://www.asondheim.org/roughrace.mp4 * Of course, naming the effect after me quickly gives way to the realiza- tion that there must be thousands of experimental studies of just such things; it's more than obvious. Viewing alternations is standard in lang- uage and motion studies; the only difference here is that the alternating images are from slightly different viewpoints. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:10:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Sonnet for low tide In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0710032209gcf72fd6md2468fb0cb417d3e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit These images are wonderful. Thank you for sharing them with us. Perhaps because I just got an announcement about his art, they remind me somewhat of the work of the artist known as Jess, Robert Duncan's partner for many years. Regards, Tom Savage Peter Ciccariello wrote: Sonnet for low tide -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:14:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eminen. "Stan" (I think). -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Sarah Rosenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:51 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Hi, =20 I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, = as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and = poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form = obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like = letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not = a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single = pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. =20 I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles = in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free = to backchannel if you'd prefer. =20 Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf =20 Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 05:18:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: taylan yildiran Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nathanielel Mackey's Bedoin Hornbook Sarah Rosenthal wrote: Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 17:01:35 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: colin herd Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline beverly dahlen On 10/4/07, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as > well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). > I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, > such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, > etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in > some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. > I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in > one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to > backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:03:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Zamsky, Robert" Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: A<883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nate Mackey's prose. I've taught Atet A.D. in several contexts, and students always seem to get into the epistolary nature of the work -- even though (or maybe because) the letters are addressed to "Angel of Dust." - Robert Zamsky -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Sarah Rosenthal Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:51 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Hi, =20 I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. =20 I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. =20 Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf =20 Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:04:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline araki yasusada--Doubled Flowering: From the Notebooks of Araki Yasusada --Letters in English st john crevecouer--Letters from an American Farmer Jack Spicer--After Lorca Ring Lardner--You Know, Me Al Tadeusz Borowski--some stories in This Way to the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen The Yage Letters--Burroughs & Ginsberg Soledad Brother--George Jackson E.A. Poe--The Purloined Letter Sterne and Smollet--epistolary novels-- Epistles of St Paul of Tarsus The Letters of Van Gogh Letters from Earth--Mark Twain Rilke on Cezanne (letters) Pasternak, Rilke & Maria Tsvetevya Correspondance Kamikaze Diaries Reflections by Japanese Student Soldiers (includes a great many letters) My Life is a Weapon A Modern History of Suicide Bombings by Chrisophe Reiner (includes written letters & transcriptions of video tapes) Fyodor Dostoyesvksy--Notes (sometimes "Letters") from Underground On 10/3/07, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:11:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >----- Original Message ----=0A>From: Thomas savage = =0A>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A>Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2007 7:5= 1:03 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas?=0A=0A>One thing that = occurs to me here, though I haven't read it yet, is that a new volume of co= rrespondence between Robert Duncan >and Denise Levertov has recently been p= ublished. Are there any epistolary poems in it? I can't say. Regards, To= m Savage=0A=0AThomas,=0A=0A=0A=0ADuncan's correspondence with Levertov actu= ally started with a Letter poem which was the first one published in his bo= ok Letters. Levertov did not understand the intent, but got over her initia= l confusion and began that long correspondence with Duncan. The recent Floo= d Editions book is beautiful: http://www.floodeditions.com/new/duncan.html= =0A=0ASarah, Another place to find a recent use of this form is in the Augu= st Poetry Postcard Fest Lana Ayers and I initiated this past August and con= tinue with 107 people on a weekly basis. Details: http://poetrypostcards.bl= ogspot.com/ or backchannel me if you like.=0A=0AGood luck,=0A=0APaul=0A =0A= Paul E. Nelson, M.A. =0AWPA President=0A=0AGlobal Voices Radio=0ASPLAB!=0AA= merican Sentences=0AOrganic Poetry=0APoetry Postcard Blog=0AWashington Poet= s Association=0A=0ASlaughter, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:12:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: A NEW Creeley Letter Re: Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In response to Simic story, which I haven't read, which the poster offered as mere titilation - warning, perhaps (and where is Mr. Bernstein?): Got lots to say about RC. In the coming years, there are letters that will be released. He was many things, mostly important, I think; and inspite of his insecurities, frailties, honesty, engagement in the process of life - despite the animosity so many have held towards him. And despite that animostity, so many more love the man and his work. It is honest, his work, we can say with a deep relaxing breath - and did lots for many. What follows is an email he wrote this email really hours before his death. This man, Bob, was, I think, very much the sort of human embodiment of the divine - a savage on all fours moving across our dirty floor, so polluted by the likes of many (including on this list), attempting to recoup himself and in that, I think, find and offer grace. He was the man who often said: No problem what-so-ever. He was an ambitious man, a good man, a person many of us KNEW. AlexJ. --- From : Creeley, Robert Sent : Sunday, March 27, 2005 1:40 PM To : "Alexander Jorgensen" Subject : RE: THIS ONE'S GOOD Dear Alex, Very sad to say, I am in lousy shaope, having got tests last Thursday, and now waiting for final report on biopsy. The doctor tells me I've got lung cancer and that's effectually it. No surgery is practical and it does not respond to chemotherapy. So if I don't write ir keep up, that's why. Onward! Best as ever, Bob -- PO Box 816, Marfa, TX 79843-0816 Cell: 716 435 1460 * Email Robert_Creeley@brown.edu -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Jorgensen [mailto:bangdrum@hotmail.com] Sent: Sun 3/27/2005 7:16 AM To: Creeley, Robert Subject: THIS ONE'S GOOD Dear Bob: One finds oneself wondering on whose team one'll sit once sense of feeling grounded by structure one presupposes exists is null and existence of ideals flouted make Paine, Lincoln, and others simply commercial property -- or kitsch. With bewilderment, I think there's simply a floating kinda feeling, here. Will new administration make a difference -- with brutal damage done? I know the media is handedly controlled in China, but as your articles reveal, there's lots of dirty stuff making the whole damn place polluted and rank on the home front. You're one of the titans, I might argue, to jump on an old sedan and start hollerin' -- like Ginsburg did, and who I've, regrettably, intolerably, berated on past occasions. I feel that it might not only be kindness and realism that we're to teach, but values. I think that something's disappearing, and I thought it was there -- and I don't want to watch it go, to think its possible. ******Please tell me where I can send your package, because it'll take about two weeks from Beijing -- and I want to make sure it gets to you. My girlfriend and I even managed to enclose some reading material.***** As for more good things in China: mornings with old ladies dancing about, with pom-pom-type things, smiley-faced grey-locked teenage girls in the park outside our door; a winter where I saw a migrant worker lugging a donkey cart stop to brush snow of his new and well polished patent shoes; a friend name Wu Jian Li whose hoping to travel abroad and have opportunity to become a great painter; my love developing inspite of myself into beautiful bloom of seventh year; the sense of aloneness that leads one to cherish one's own home; an e-mail like this. Lots, alas, are sad and there's a lot of mistrust. Today we visited a temple defaced during the Cultural Revolution -- hundreds of tiny buddahs had lost their heads, along with a country its culture by man called too often George Washington. Best, Alex p.s. Take good care of yourself. -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:21:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: A New Creeley Letter - 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And yes, my e-mail is many things - but, first, honest. Am in Thailand with a fractured foot, in lots of pain, been debating as to whether or not I need further explain the damn "ol' country western singer" to those of us not strong enough to lift our voices to look after a friend - and I'd rather debate my points face-to-face, the wildness of my eyes apparent, the richness of my experiences full blown, my poetry a valid weapon. So often I am perplexed by the rubbish on this list and the inaction with regards to "people issues". This list very much, I would argue, lives less up to its list members expectations that most us are willing to honestly divulge. No different that any other American (US American for those "sensitive") production!! AJ -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:22:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <305524.91943.qm@web51501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline most of my suggestions are in 18th c. lit (when the epistolary form was really in vogue) clarissa (richardson) evelina (burney) the history of emily montague (frances brooke) The Mixquiahuala Letters (ana castillo) On 10/4/07, taylan yildiran wrote: > > Nathanielel Mackey's Bedoin Hornbook > > > Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as > well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). > I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, > such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, > etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in > some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. > I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in > one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to > backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > > > > --------------------------------- > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:21:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are interested in actual epistolary novels, early American literature is replete with them, especially written by women--"the women's weepy" in derisive terms, or, sentimental fiction is less derisive terms. My favorite is Hannah Webster Foster's _The Coquette_, but there are numerous other examples. The Wikipedia entry for "epistolary novel" lists important early ones from Aphra Beha and and Samuel Richardson, and interesting late ones from Nabokov and CS Lewis--it's worth a look. --ShaunAnne On Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 11:50 PM, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course > I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and > poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of > fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches > the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be > epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some > direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at > things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm > interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also > interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles > in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel > free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:32:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick dunagan Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <846D336ED686FF48943D51955C2C5B23031087CD@quicksilver.network.ncf.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Keats 2007/10/4, Zamsky, Robert : > > Nate Mackey's prose. I've taught Atet A.D. in several contexts, and > students always seem to get into the epistolary nature of the work -- > even though (or maybe because) the letters are addressed to "Angel of > Dust." > > - Robert Zamsky > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Sarah Rosenthal > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:51 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? > > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, > as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and > poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form > obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't > look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New > York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically > enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, > series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know > of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles > in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel > free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:42:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: 9 poets 9 cities: LOGAN RYAN SMITH reads in San Francisco, 10/20/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If you're in the Bay Area DON'T MISS THIS READING! Logan Ryan Smith will be reading from his amazing new book THE SINGERS (Dusie Press, 2007). Details here: http://loganryansmithreading.blogspot.com/ And check out the comments section for the recent a.rawlings event in Toronto for 9 poets 9 cities: http://arawlingsreading.blogspot.com CAConrad series coordinator http://9poets9cities.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:58:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Sonnet for low tide In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0710032209gcf72fd6md2468fb0cb417d3e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Peter, I always really enjoy your pieces, but I find this one particularly striking. I even find fourteen lines to read here. it's beautiful, thanks for sharing. On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Peter Ciccariello wrote: > Sonnet for low tide > > > > -- Peter Ciccariello > http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:53:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Saner Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <846D336ED686FF48943D51955C2C5B23031087CD@quicksilver.network.ncf.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet i second this one. softened my heart towards poetry in general. not epistle poems, per se, but epistolary nonetheless. On 10/4/07, Zamsky, Robert wrote: > > Nate Mackey's prose. I've taught Atet A.D. in several contexts, and > students always seem to get into the epistolary nature of the work -- > even though (or maybe because) the letters are addressed to "Angel of > Dust." > > - Robert Zamsky > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Sarah Rosenthal > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:51 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? > > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, > as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and > poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form > obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't > look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New > York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically > enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, > series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know > of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles > in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel > free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > -- Brent Saner 215.264.0112(cell) 215.362.7696(residence) http://www.thenotebookarmy.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:52:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love this topic. Samuel Richardson's Clarissa: Or the History of a Young Lady (1748) is a novel in letters; I felt like a smart person (your students would, too) when I realized I had read this book at a lecture at the 2000 MLA. Vangogh's letters. I have written & pub'd in journals at least two short stories that are something like letters; if you like, see _http://annbogle.blogspot.com_ (http://annbogle.blogspot.com) . AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:31:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what a great list! David Chirot wrote: > araki yasusada--Doubled Flowering: From the Notebooks of Araki Yasusada > --Letters in English > > st john crevecouer--Letters from an American Farmer > > Jack Spicer--After Lorca > > Ring Lardner--You Know, Me Al > > Tadeusz Borowski--some stories in This Way to the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen > > The Yage Letters--Burroughs & Ginsberg > > Soledad Brother--George Jackson > > E.A. Poe--The Purloined Letter > > Sterne and Smollet--epistolary novels-- > > Epistles of St Paul of Tarsus > > The Letters of Van Gogh > > Letters from Earth--Mark Twain > > Rilke on Cezanne (letters) > > Pasternak, Rilke & Maria Tsvetevya Correspondance > > Kamikaze Diaries Reflections by Japanese Student Soldiers (includes > a great many > > letters) > > My Life is a Weapon A Modern History of Suicide Bombings by Chrisophe Reiner > (includes written letters & > transcriptions of video tapes) > > Fyodor Dostoyesvksy--Notes (sometimes "Letters") from Underground > > > > > > On 10/3/07, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. >> >> I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. >> >> Bellamie >> Brown (Laynie) >> Celan >> Clark >> Dickinson >> Fraser >> Frym >> Ginsberg >> Hughes >> Hunt >> Kafka >> Knight >> Mayer >> Muske >> Neidecker >> Neruda >> Notley >> O'Hara >> Creeley >> Palmer >> Pound >> Schlovsky >> Spicer >> West (Nathaniel) >> Woolf >> >> Many thanks, >> Sarah Rosenthal >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:33:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't know how I could have forgotten John Barth's _Letters_! On Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 11:04 AM, David Chirot wrote: > araki yasusada--Doubled Flowering: From the Notebooks of Araki > Yasusada > --Letters in English > > st john crevecouer--Letters from an American Farmer > > Jack Spicer--After Lorca > > Ring Lardner--You Know, Me Al > > Tadeusz Borowski--some stories in This Way to the Gas, Ladies and > Gentlemen > > The Yage Letters--Burroughs & Ginsberg > > Soledad Brother--George Jackson > > E.A. Poe--The Purloined Letter > > Sterne and Smollet--epistolary novels-- > > Epistles of St Paul of Tarsus > > The Letters of Van Gogh > > Letters from Earth--Mark Twain > > Rilke on Cezanne (letters) > > Pasternak, Rilke & Maria Tsvetevya Correspondance > > Kamikaze Diaries Reflections by Japanese Student Soldiers (includes > a great many > > letters) > > My Life is a Weapon A Modern History of Suicide Bombings by Chrisophe > Reiner > (includes written letters & > transcriptions of video tapes) > > Fyodor Dostoyesvksy--Notes (sometimes "Letters") from Underground > > > > > > On 10/3/07, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course >> I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and >> poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of >> fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches >> the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be >> epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some >> direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking >> at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm >> interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also >> interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. >> >> I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done >> epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to >> mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. >> >> Bellamie >> Brown (Laynie) >> Celan >> Clark >> Dickinson >> Fraser >> Frym >> Ginsberg >> Hughes >> Hunt >> Kafka >> Knight >> Mayer >> Muske >> Neidecker >> Neruda >> Notley >> O'Hara >> Creeley >> Palmer >> Pound >> Schlovsky >> Spicer >> West (Nathaniel) >> Woolf >> >> Many thanks, >> Sarah Rosenthal >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:54:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Richard Hugo did an interesting book of letter-poems. Diane di P. From: Sarah Rosenthal Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 21:50:55 -0700 To: Subject: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:06:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: Opstedal and Kelder Reading/ Berkeley 10/10/07 In-Reply-To: <5fabddd10710031142j3c41fd39h148281fa01a381ed@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Kevin Opstedal and Cralan Kelder will read some poems Time & Date: 7:30pm Wednesday, October 10th, 2007 FREE Location: Moe's Books 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:11:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <47049DF00200004C0000D42A@destiny.owens.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Keats. From: Leonard Kress Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:01:52 -0400 To: Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Maybe I'm missing something here, but what about: Olson, Mayan Letters Goethe,Sorrows of Young Werther Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet Thomas McGrath, Letters to an Imaginary Friend Leonard Kress Leonard Kress Associate Professor Communications/Humanities www.harrowgatepress.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:12:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <224894.24339.qm@web31103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to Creeley (introd. to _Black Mountain Review_ 3 vol. set, AMS Press, 1968) Duncan's "For A Muse Meant" was originally published as "Letters for Denise Levertov."=20 Duncan's _Letters: Poems, 1953-1956_ (Jargon, 1958) might also fit your definition. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Thomas savage Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:51 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? One thing that occurs to me here, though I haven't read it yet, is that = a new volume of correspondence between Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov = has recently been published. Are there any epistolary poems in it? I can't say. Regards, Tom Savage Sarah Rosenthal wrote: Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, = as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and = poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form = obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like = letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not = a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single = pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in = one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal =20 --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Cervantes Subject: Re: submissions to The Salt River Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Submissions for the Fall, 2007 issue of The Salt River Review (Greg Simon, guest-editor/poetry, and Carol Novack, guest-editor/fiction) are closed. Any submissions sent to the guest editors will now be saved for consideration for the Winter, 2007/08 issue. Submissions should now be sent to James Cervantes, poetry editor, and Lynda Schor, fiction editor. Addresses and guidelines are available at http://www.poetserv.org -- James Cervantes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning ~ http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf ~ http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:34:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=91Howl=92?= in an Era That Fears Indecency - New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/books/04howl.html?em&ex=1191643200&en=02ea729f9cc6558b&ei=5087%0A --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:39:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: luke daly Subject: STRING OF SMALL MACHINES 3 : OUT NOW from HOUSE PRESS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit string of small machines is pleased to announce its third issue. the issue features : sabrina calle harold abramowitz & amanda ackerman kathryn l. pringle cedar sigo maureen thorson mark lamoureux brandon downing roberto harrison paul klinger elzabeth robinson cover: michael slosek copies available for 6 dollars thru PayPal at http://housepress.blogspot.com string of small machines is the poetry magazine of house press, published in chicago, edited by luke daly, barrett gordon, and eric unger. House Press is an independent, poetry-centered arts community founded in Buffalo, NY in 2002. Authors / publishers live in Buffalo, Chicago, New York, Albany, Charlottesville, and San Francisco. More info : http://www.housepress.org http://housepress.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:55:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Jenkins Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Maurice Manning's book "Bucolics" On 10/3/07, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as > well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). > I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, > such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, > etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in > some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. > I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in > one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to > backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:19:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Michael Mollohan" Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick Bantock's Griffin & Sabine series Dracula ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip Fox" To: Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? According to Creeley (introd. to _Black Mountain Review_ 3 vol. set, AMS Press, 1968) Duncan's "For A Muse Meant" was originally published as "Letters for Denise Levertov." Duncan's _Letters: Poems, 1953-1956_ (Jargon, 1958) might also fit your definition. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Thomas savage Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:51 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? One thing that occurs to me here, though I haven't read it yet, is that a new volume of correspondence between Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov has recently been published. Are there any epistolary poems in it? I can't say. Regards, Tom Savage Sarah Rosenthal wrote: Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:47:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=91Howl=92?= in an Era That Fears Indecency - New York Times In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find disturbing - I suspect as with many - WBAI's 'trembles' and refusal to provide an on-air reading of Howl. On the other hand, I understand totally why the Bush Administration does not want to publicly air its internal memo's that sanction torture up to the 'point of death' - as also revealed today in the NYTimes. Now, those memos are indecent, obscene and probably going to be the cause of the vengeful deaths of many of our fellow country persons. But "Howl"? I don't think Howl ever killed or tortured anybody!! Well, to remember the good old days, you might go over to Jacket and see Gordon Ball's 1991 picture of military cadets reading Howl as, apparently, a required classrom text. It's ironic and wonderful. But that was back in Iraq I, back in time when Powell and Cheney were steadfast against going into Baghdad - and if Cheney was already excited by some imagine benefits from the practice of torture, we did not hear about it. "Cadets read Howl, February 19, 1991, Virginia Military Institute, Lexington, Virginia." http://jacketmagazine.com/33/ball-photos.shtml Stehen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ David Chirot wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/books/04howl.html?em&ex=1191643200&en=02ea729f9cc6558b&ei=5087%0A --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:48:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Charles Olson, Letters to Origin (to Cid Corman) Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Diane DiPrima wrote: Keats. From: Leonard Kress Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:01:52 -0400 To: Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Maybe I'm missing something here, but what about: Olson, Mayan Letters Goethe,Sorrows of Young Werther Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet Thomas McGrath, Letters to an Imaginary Friend Leonard Kress Leonard Kress Associate Professor Communications/Humanities www.harrowgatepress.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:50:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Vancouver Reading: Dorantes, Durgin, Hofer and Seldess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The venue for the upcoming reading presented by Kootenay School of Writing has been changed to the KSW headquarters: Dominion Building 309-207 West Hastings St. Vancouver, BC V6B 1H6 CANADA Phone: 604.313.6903 info@kswnet.org Kenning Editions is sponsoring a west coast book tour over the latter half of October, featuring Jesse Seldess (Chicago, Berlin, Karlsruhe) reading from /Who Opens/ and newer work, Dolores Dorantes (Ciudad Juárez) reading from /sexoPUROsexoVELOZ and Septiembre/, Jen Hofer (Los Angeles) reading her translations in tandem with Dorantes, and Patrick Durgin (Chicago) reading from /Imitation Poems/ (Atticus Finch, 2007) and conducting readings and performances from /Hannah Weiner’s Open House/. Durgin and Hofer will also read for their forthcoming collaborative book, /The Route/ (Atelos, 2008). All four poets appear together unless otherwise indicated in the tour schedule: Tue. 10/16, 7:00 PM, Kootenay School of Writing , Vancouver, BC. Thu. 10/18, 7:00 PM, Emergent Forms Series , Southern Oregon University, Ashland. Fri. 10/19, 7:30 PM, Spare Room Series (New American Art Union), Portland. Sun. 10/21, 7:00 PM, New Yipes Series (21 Grand), Oakland, CA. (Dolores Dorantes, Demosthenes Agrafiotis, and films by Katie Edmonds.) Mon. 10/22, 7:30 PM, Moe’s Books , Berkeley. Tues. 10/23, 6:00 PM, University of California at Santa Cruz Living Writers Series . Thu. 10/25, 3:30 PM, The Poetry Center of San Francisco State University . Fri. 10/26, 7:30 PM, Modern Times Bookstore , San Francisco. (Dorantes, Durgin, and Hofer.) Sun. 10/28, Last Sunday Series at The Smell, Los Angeles. (Dorantes, Durgin, and Hofer.) Please click over to www.kenningeditions.com for more information, including secure, online orders of books, subscriptions, and other poetic wares. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:52:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sarah - Are you familiar with the somonka - a form of Japanese epistolary love poem? two tankas, five line poems with syllable counts 5-7-5-7-7. The first tanka is a statement of love. The second, by another author, is a response. I can send you one of my own, an exchange that goes on for a while, b/ c if you'd wish. Charlotte On Oct 4, 2007, at 12:50 AM, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: Hi, I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. Bellamie Brown (Laynie) Celan Clark Dickinson Fraser Frym Ginsberg Hughes Hunt Kafka Knight Mayer Muske Neidecker Neruda Notley O'Hara Creeley Palmer Pound Schlovsky Spicer West (Nathaniel) Woolf Many thanks, Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:44:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0710040922i1af6842au4f0db385928724d5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit and who could forget Les Liaisons Dangereuses? angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > most of my suggestions are in 18th c. lit (when the epistolary form was > really in vogue) > > clarissa (richardson) > evelina (burney) > the history of emily montague (frances brooke) > The Mixquiahuala Letters (ana castillo) > > > > On 10/4/07, taylan yildiran wrote: > >> Nathanielel Mackey's Bedoin Hornbook >> >> >> Sarah Rosenthal wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm >> teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as >> well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). >> I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, >> such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, >> etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a >> ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in >> some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. >> I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. >> >> I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in >> one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to >> backchannel if you'd prefer. >> >> Bellamie >> Brown (Laynie) >> Celan >> Clark >> Dickinson >> Fraser >> Frym >> Ginsberg >> Hughes >> Hunt >> Kafka >> Knight >> Mayer >> Muske >> Neidecker >> Neruda >> Notley >> O'Hara >> Creeley >> Palmer >> Pound >> Schlovsky >> Spicer >> West (Nathaniel) >> Woolf >> >> Many thanks, >> Sarah Rosenthal >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Got a little couch potato? >> Check out fun summer activities for kids. >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:44:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A good photography gallery asked me if I could help them find a good poem &/or poems that deal with echoes, and or mirrors. (They be doing a book). And the photographer is much into dealing with variously mirrored 'doubles' - usually of the 'funk' flea market sort (cracked ceramic ears, matching stereo speakers, etc.) Aphasia here when it comes to remembering texts/poems, appreciate any suggestions. Wally Stevens might be too mandarin for 'the case.' Thanks in advance, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:08:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <4705319B.6020608@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Anybody mention Gary Sullivan's and Nada Gordon's Swoon? One of my favorite books. - Alan ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:17:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror In-Reply-To: <314064.58142.qm@web82611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed one could do worse than to start with Ovid, on Echo and Narcissus, in Book III of The Metamorphoses. There are other poems on Echo and Narcissus you can probably find through google. Robert Creeley has a poem "Echo" and a book "Echoes," though these may not be about echo or mirror in the way your photo gallery would like. I think there must be a sound poem by bpNichol that makes use of echo. Sylvia Plath's "Mirror" is from the mirror's point of view. Christina Rossetti has a poem, "Echo." Echo Come to me in the silence of the night; Come in the speaking silence of a dream; Come with soft rounded cheeks and eyes as bright As sunlight on a stream; Come back in tears, O memory, hope, love of finished years. O dream how sweet, too sweet, too bitter sweet, Whose wakening should have been in Paradise, Where souls brimfull of love abide and meet; Where thirsting longing eyes Watch the slow door That opening, letting in, lets out no more. Yet come to me in dreams, that I may live My very life again though cold in death: Come back to me in dreams, that I may give Pulse for pulse, breath for breath: Speak low, lean low As long ago, my love, how long ago. Jonathan Swift has a poem titled "An Echo" An Echo Never sleeping, still awake, Pleasing most when most I speak; The delight of old and young, Though I speak without a tongue. Nought but one thing can confound me, Many voices joining round me; Then I fret, and rave, and gabble, Like the laborers of Babel. Now I am a dog, or cow, I can bark, or I can low; I can bleat, or I can sing, Like the warblers of the spring. Let the love-sick bard complain, And I mourn the cruel pain; Let the happy swain rejoice, And I join my helping voice: Both are welcome, grief or joy, I with either sport and toy. Though a lady, I am stout, Drums and trumpets bring me out: Then I clash, and roar, and rattle, Join in all the din of battle. Jove, with all his loudest thunder, When I'm vexed can't keep me under, Yet so tender is my ear, That the lowest voice I fear; Much I dread the courtier's fate, When his merit's out of date, For I hate a silent breath, And a whisper is my death. There must be lots more. Some of these, perhaps all, may be too mandarin, too. There are probably Mandarin poems about echo, haiku about looking into water as a mirror, etc. charles At 02:44 PM 10/4/2007, you wrote: >A good photography gallery asked me if I could help them find a good >poem &/or poems that deal with echoes, and or mirrors. (They be >doing a book). And the photographer is much into dealing with >variously mirrored 'doubles' - usually of the 'funk' flea market >sort (cracked ceramic ears, matching stereo speakers, etc.) > > Aphasia here when it comes to remembering texts/poems, appreciate > any suggestions. Wally Stevens might be too mandarin for 'the case.' > > Thanks in advance, > > Stephen Vincent > charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then Chax Press 520-620-1626 (studio) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com chax.org 650 E. 9th St. Tucson, AZ 85705 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:30:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey! Check out Ric Royer's work which I review on my blog, Joe Brainard's Pyjamas. It's all about the "double." We were speaking of Creeley...he has a book "Echoes" which is of course about the echoes of memory mostly. Notes for Echo Lake by Michael Palmer? "He-she bends at the mirrored waist" begins one poem ("False Portrait.") And he has that strange poem with the Nevercadabra mirrored box, is it? That's not in this book but in his Selected I'd wager. I'm sure you'll got tons of recommendations on this from the list. Poets tend to love mirrors and echoes. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:24:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vidhu Aggarwal Subject: Call for submissions: SPECS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Specs is a journal of contemporary culture and arts at Rollins College. Spe= cs aims to create sympathetic interfaces between artistic and critical prac= tices. =0A=0AThe editors invite submissions of critical and/or creative wor= k for the Fall 2008 print and web issue. We seek works of fiction, non-fic= tion, cultural criticism, artwork, poetry, and pieces that blur genre bound= aries. The editorial board consists of writers and academics from various f= ields. The editors are excited by specialty, an excess of detail, fragments= , narratives, meta-narratives, and more.=0A=0A=0AThe deadline for submissio= ns of poetry, creative prose, and fiction is March 3, 2008. Please limit pr= ose submissions to less than 6000 words and poetry submissions to 10-12 pag= es.=0A=0AFor critical essays, we encourage submissions of 300-word abstract= s/proposals by December 1, 2007. Articles will be peer reviewed. The fina= l deadline for critical submissions is February 5, 2008.=0A=0AThe editors a= re particularly interested in works that examine contemporary culture and/o= r cross the critical/creative divide. =0A=0AEmail submissions as word attac= hments to editors@specsjournal.org. Remember to include a brief cover lette= r indicating whether you wish to be considered for the print edition, the w= eb edition, or both. Please also indicate the type/genre of submission in t= he subject heading (Cultural Criticism).=0A=0AIn ONE/OFF, a special section= of Specs, we are seeking one-page works that force interactions between th= e print and web edition. =0A=0AFor further guidelines visit our website at= www.specsjournal.org. =0A=0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:38:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? Comments: To: cfloydmiller@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's it Cherryl! Thank You! Glad you enjoyed it as much as I did. What an interesting little magic trick it is! I was hoping someone would nail it! I was going to say "I think there's a parrot on the front" LOL.... Certainly sui generis... Bill ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:44:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: richard owens Subject: Damn the Caesars: vol iii, blog updates, paypal In-Reply-To: <47055223.2090702@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Damn the Caesars Vol. III is out and available through the website, which can be accessed by clicking on the link below. Contributors include: Thomas Meyer, Steve McCaffery, Karen Mac Cormack, Dale Smith, Bill Griffiths (1948-2007), Stan Mir, Peter Finch, Thom Donovan, Sotere Torregian, Michael Kelleher, Richard Deming, Rachel Levitsky, Jonathan Greene, and Billy Childish. Vol III features: Contemporary Korean Poetry translated by Brother Anthony of Taize, Lee Sang-Wha, Lee Hyung-Jin, and Yoo Hui-Suk. Poets include Ko Un, Kim Seung-Hui, Ynhui Park, Lee Si-Young, and Chonggi Mah. Previously untranslated work by Andrzej Bursa introduced by Kevin Christianson, and translated by Christianson and Halina Ablamowicz. This volume can be purchased through the website via Paypal. Lastly, we've updated Damn the Caesars the Blog! Recent entries include: Carla Harryman: Open Box Pilot/ P-Queue/ DTC Launch Bill Griffiths (1948-2007) The Haunting: Vigilance 1917 Christian Brett & Bracket Press Brian Mornar's Repatterning ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:54:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: my talk at MOCA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's what I'm doing next Thursday night,=20 October 11. I hope you can come. -- Charles moca museum of contemporary art 191 East Toole Avenue Tucson, Arizona 85701 public information phone 520.624.5019 www.moca-tucson.org Federal tax ID: 86-0850880 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Press Contact: Lissa Gibbs, MOCA Associate Director, lg@moca-tucson.org private office phone: 520.624.6873 MOCA Lit Presents Acclaimed Poet Charles Alexander =93Away We Shall Float: Where Poems Take Us=94 Thursday, October 11, 6pm 19 September 2007 (Tucson, Arizona)=AD Part of an=20 on-going series where artists occupy the role of=20 creator, critic, and audience, MOCA Lit is=20 pleased to host award-wining poet and founder of=20 Chax Press Charles Alexander as he shares the=20 pleasure of poetry as a writer and reader.=20 Alexander will discuss his work vis a vis Dada=20 impresario Hugo Ball under the theme of poetry as=20 the language of excess in an intimate evening=20 conversation entitled =93Away We Shall Float: Where Poems Take Us.=94 Charles Alexander (born 1954) is a Tucson-based=20 poet, publisher, and book artist. He is the=20 director and editor-in-chief of Chax Press, one=20 of the only independent presses that specializes=20 in innovative poetry and the book arts. He is the=20 recipient of the 2006 Arizona Arts Award.=20 Alexander's books of poetry include Hopeful=20 Buildings (Chax Press, 1990), arc of light | dark=20 matter (Segue Books, 1992), Pushing Water: parts=20 one through six (Standing Stones Press, Morris,=20 MN, 1998), Pushing Water: part seven (Chax Press,=20 Tucson),Four Ninety Eight to Seven (Meow Press,=20 1996), Etudes: D & D (Quarry Press, 1997), near=20 or random acts (Singing Horse Press, 2004), and=20 Certain Slants (Junction Press, 2007). Hugo Ball (1886 =961927) is a German-born author=20 and poet best known as the creator of the Dada=20 Manifesto (in 1916) and co-founder of Cabaret=20 Voltaire in Z=FCrich. He is one of the people=20 credited with naming the movement "Dada" =96 by=20 allegedly choosing the word at random from a=20 dictionary. His best known literary works include=20 the poem collection 7 schizophrene Sonette, the=20 drama Die Nase des Michelangelo, a memoir of the=20 Z=FCrich period Flight Out of Time: A Dada Diary,=20 and a biography of Hermann Hesse, entitled=20 Hermann Hesse. Sein Leben und sein Werk (1927).=20 His poem "Gadji beri bimba" was later adapted by=20 The Talking Heads in the song entitled "I Zimbra"=20 on their 1979 album Fear of Music for which he=20 received a posthumous formal writing credit. =93Away We Shall Float: Where Poems Take Us=94 will=20 take place at concept : moca, 174 E. Toole=20 (downtown between 6th and Stone Avenues) on=20 Thursday, October 11, at 6pm. Admission is FREE=20 to MOCA members, $5 non-members. Ample free=20 parking is available on nights and weekends on=20 the streets and lots surrounding concept : moca. About MOCA Lit MOCA inspires new ways of thinking through the cultivation, interpretation and exhibition of cutting edge art of our time. MOCA Lit fosters the discourse between the visual=20 and textual arts. MOCA is funded in part by the=20 National Endowment for the Arts, The Andy Warhol=20 Foundation for the Visual Arts, The Arizona=20 Commission on the Arts, and the Tucson Pima Arts Council. charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then Chax Press 520-620-1626 (studio) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com chax.org 650 E. 9th St. Tucson, AZ 85705 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:09:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larissa Shmailo Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ashbery's "Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror"? Larissa Shmailo (http://myspace.com/larissaworld) "The poet, like the lover, is a menace on the assembly line." -Rollo May ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:11:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Giannini Subject: OTHERS' LINES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those who have asked and those who may wish... OTHERS'S LINES by David Giannini may be ordered @ $6 per copy ppd from=20 Peter Ganick 45 Ravenwood Road West Hartford, CT 06107-1539 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:21:50 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror In-Reply-To: <314064.58142.qm@web82611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There was a genre of echo poems in the 16th century--I remember a good one by Sir Plilip Sidney. Stephen Vincent wrote: A good photography gallery asked me if I could help them find a good poem &/or poems that deal with echoes, and or mirrors. (They be doing a book). And the photographer is much into dealing with variously mirrored 'doubles' - usually of the 'funk' flea market sort (cracked ceramic ears, matching stereo speakers, etc.) Aphasia here when it comes to remembering texts/poems, appreciate any suggestions. Wally Stevens might be too mandarin for 'the case.' Thanks in advance, Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:25:00 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT elizabeth barrett browning. and virginia woolf's diaries are rather like letters to herself. gabe On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Alan Sondheim wrote: > Anybody mention Gary Sullivan's and Nada Gordon's Swoon? One of my > favorite books. > > - Alan > > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:45:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Metta Sama Subject: for those in CW programs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit x-listed All, someone has donated money to the CW dept at my University (really a college, but called a University from old history). we're now establishing a visiting professorship for a writer, but are looking for a Distinguished or Established writer. are any of you at a program that has a Distinguished or Established Visiting Writing Professorship? we're looking for models to help us define how to go about creating ours. please backchannel me if your program does have a Distinguished or Established Visiting Writer Professorship. we're looking at all models, including one semester gigs, one-year gigs with low teaching loads, etc. thanks in advance, Metta (mae_b@mac.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 20:41:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <007601c806c3$da2498c0$6400a8c0@Janus> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit va. woolf On 10/4/07 4:19 PM, "J. Michael Mollohan" wrote: > Nick Bantock's Griffin & Sabine series > Dracula > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Skip Fox" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 3:12 PM > Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? > > > According to Creeley (introd. to _Black Mountain Review_ 3 vol. set, AMS > Press, 1968) Duncan's "For A Muse Meant" was originally published as > "Letters for Denise Levertov." > > Duncan's _Letters: Poems, 1953-1956_ (Jargon, 1958) might also fit your > definition. > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Thomas savage > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:51 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? > > One thing that occurs to me here, though I haven't read it yet, is that a > new volume of correspondence between Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov has > recently been published. Are there any epistolary poems in it? I can't > say. Regards, Tom Savage > > Sarah Rosenthal wrote: Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as > well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). > I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, > such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, > etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in > some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. > I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in one > or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to > backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > > > > --------------------------------- > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:43:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: Attention: IN, OH, MI, NY, IL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable October Reading Tour =20 Friday October 5: Ft. Wayne, Indiana 7:30 pm at the Co-op at 1612 Sherman Street with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson=20 Joyelle McSweeney, Johannes Goransson =20 Saturday October 6: Athens, Ohio (house reading: ask around) with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson =20 Sunday October 7: Muncie, Indiana=20 7:30pm at MT Cup Caf=E9 1606 W University Ave Muncie, IN=20 with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson =20 Monday October 8: Kalamazoo, Michigan 8pm at Western Michigan University, Sprau Tower 10th Floor with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson =20 Tuesday October 9: South Bend, Indiana=20 8:00 p.m. at Notre Dame, Hospitality Room, Reckers, South Dining Hall with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson =20 Wednesday October 10: Oberlin College at 4:30 pm on campus with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson =20 Wednesday October 10: Cleveland, Ohio=20 7:30 pm at CSU=92s Trinity Commons, 2230 Euclid Avenue=20 via the Cleveland State Poetry Center =20 with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson =20 Thurs. Oct. 11: Buffalo, New York=20 7pm at Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St Buffalo, NY=20 with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson =20 Friday October 12: Oxford, Ohio 8pm on campus at Miami University=20 with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson=20 Joyelle McSweeney, Johannes Goransson =20 Saturday October 13: Cincinnati, Ohio=20 8pm at Publico Art Gallery 1308 Clay Street, Cincinnati, OH with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson=20 Joyelle McSweeney, Johannes Goransson =20 Sunday Oct. 14: Chicago, Illinois with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson 7pm at Myopic Bookstore 1564 N. Milwaukee Avenue, 2nd Floor =20 Saturday October 20th Ann Arbor, Michigan=20 7pm at Shaman Drum Bookshop with Noah Eli Gordon, Joshua Marie Wilkinson & Selah Saterstrom =20 =20 Joyelle McSweeney is the author of The Commandrine and Other Poems and The = Red Bird, both from Fence, as well as Nylund, the Sarcographer, a baroque n= oir novella from Tarpaulin Sky Press, and Flet, a sci-fi novel slated for r= elease by Fence in 2008. McSweeney is also the co-founder and co-editor of = Action, a poetry and translation press, and Action, Yes, a web-quarterly fo= r international writing and hybrid forms. She writes regular reviews for th= e Constant Critic, Rain Taxi, and the Boston Review. =20 Johannes Goransson is PhD candidate at the University of Georgia and teache= s at the University of Notre Dame. He is the editor of Action Books and Act= ion,Yes, and the translator of Remainland: Selected Poems of Aase Berg (Act= ion Books, 2005) and Finland-Swedish Modernist Henry Parland's Idealrealisa= tion (1930) (Ugly Duckling Presse, 2007). He is the co-editor of Action Boo= ks and the online quarterly Action, Yes and was a guest editor of the 2006 = Swedish issue of Typo.=20 =20 Joshua Marie Wilkinson is the author of Suspension of a Secret in Abandoned= Rooms (Pinball, 2005), Lug Your Careless Body out of the Careful Dusk (U o= f Iowa, 2006), and The Book of Whispering in the Projection Booth (forthcom= ing from Tupelo Press). He holds a PhD from University of Denver and lives = in Chicago where he teaches at Loyola University. His first film, Made a Ma= chine by Describing the Landscape, is due out next year. Figures for a Dar= kroom Voice, his collaboration with Noah Eli Gordon, was just published by = Tarpaulin Sky Press. =20 =20 Noah Eli Gordon is the author of six collections, three of which were publi= shed this year: Novel Pictorial Noise (Harper Perennial, 2007; selected by = John Ashbery for the National Poetry Series), A Fiddle Pulled from the Thro= at of a Sparrow (New Issues, 2007), and Figures for a Darkroom Voice, in co= llaboration with Joshua Marie Wilkinson. He writes a chapbook review column= for Rain Taxi.=20 =20 Selah Saterstrom is the author of The Pink Institution, a debut novel prais= ed across the country for "letting gusts of fresh, tart air blow into the o= ld halls of Southern Gothic" (The Believer). A Mississippi native, she is c= urrently on the faculty of the University of Denver's Creative Writing Prog= ram. Her new novel, The Meat and Spirit Plan, is just out from Coffee House= Press.=20 _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Stop = by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Oc= tWLtagline= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 20:51:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071004103749.069d2ff0@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit what about email correspondence? I once started a story made solely of answering machine messages. what will follow--a text message novel?! what abt hypertext as a form & more recent multi-media stuff? On 10/4/07 10:42 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > The list seems somewhat random, though mostly very recent. What are > your boundaries? There are thousands of possible texts: it's a very > old form--Eloise and Abelard, for instance, and it was a dominant > form for the novel in England and France in the 18th > century--Richardson, Laclos, Rousseau, etc. Letters themselves, as in > your mention of Dickinson--what about St Paul? > > Mark > > At 12:50 AM 10/4/2007, you wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a >> course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in >> fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by >> writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material >> that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that >> claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm >> going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a >> ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter >> form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and >> single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about >> epistolary form. >> >> I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done >> epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs >> to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. >> >> Bellamie >> Brown (Laynie) >> Celan >> Clark >> Dickinson >> Fraser >> Frym >> Ginsberg >> Hughes >> Hunt >> Kafka >> Knight >> Mayer >> Muske >> Neidecker >> Neruda >> Notley >> O'Hara >> Creeley >> Palmer >> Pound >> Schlovsky >> Spicer >> West (Nathaniel) >> Woolf >> >> Many thanks, >> Sarah Rosenthal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 17:59:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "Evan Connel "Notes found i=". Rest of header flushed. From: wil Hallgren Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas McGrath "Letter to an Imaginary Friend"=0AEvan Connel "Notes found i= n a bottle on a beach at Carmel" [not sure this is the exact title]=0A=0Aa = stretch=0A=0AEdmund Jabes "The Book of Questions"=0A=0A=0A----- Original Me= ssage ----=0AFrom: Mark Jenkins =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSER= V.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, October 4, 2007 2:55:06 PM=0ASubject: Re: E= pistolary Forms--Your Ideas?=0A=0A=0AMaurice Manning's book "Bucolics"=0A= =0AOn 10/3/07, Sarah Rosenthal wrote:=0A>= =0A> Hi,=0A>=0A> I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form fo= r a course I'm=0A> teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fict= ion and poetry, as=0A> well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers= of fiction and poetry).=0A> I'm also interested in material that approache= s the letter form obliquely,=0A> such as material that claims to be epistol= ary but doesn't look like letters,=0A> etc. I'm going to do some direct add= ress (e.g. New York School) but not a=0A> ton....more looking at things tha= t specifically enact the letter form in=0A> some way. I'm interested in ful= l-length works, series, and single pieces.=0A> I'm also interested in any w= riting you know of about epistolary form.=0A>=0A> I'm pasting in the auth= ors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in=0A> one or more genres. I'= d love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to=0A> backchannel if yo= u'd prefer.=0A>=0A> Bellamie=0A> Brown (Laynie)=0A> Celan=0A> Clark= =0A> Dickinson=0A> Fraser=0A> Frym=0A> Ginsberg=0A> Hughes=0A> = Hunt=0A> Kafka=0A> Knight=0A> Mayer=0A> Muske=0A> Neidecker=0A> = Neruda=0A> Notley=0A> O'Hara=0A> Creeley=0A> Palmer=0A> Pound=0A= > Schlovsky=0A> Spicer=0A> West (Nathaniel)=0A> Woolf=0A>=0A> Man= y thanks,=0A> Sarah Rosenthal=0A> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 21:55:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Ghost Text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Ghost Text Just as I found myself in the Internet, so I erased myself thereby, salvaging the fragments, a tomb of the absent body. {alan|alan|sondheim|Sondheim} allgone {panix|.com|.org|.newscool|[0-9]|zz} allgone http://www.asondheim.org/ghost.txt Imaginary pasting of the body; each eye reads the same text, one-two, one-two; each begs to differ with the other; each charmingly agrees. Ascii pasting and the ascii unconscious: Here I've opened it up for you. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas?//Using cell phones, email, chat rooms In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rajaa Alsanea's international hit Girls of Riyadh is made up of mainly emai= ls, chat room writings, cell phone calls.=20 The novel, written in Arabic, is banned so far in Alsanea's homeland, Saudi= Arabia. Since direct interaction between the sexes is forbidden before mar= riage, the use of indirect means of meeting and communicating between femal= es and males is widely used. Hence the large amount of electronic and cell= messages back and forth and chat room descriptions shared among friends of= the same sex. =20 Rajaa Alsanea gave a very well attended and received reading--in English= ; she co-translated the book-- at Schwartz's independent bookstore in Milwa= ukee a couple months ago. The Muslim men and women in attendance--mostly y= oung people--sat on opposite sides of the aisle. The women asked most of t= he questions after, and the author and her mother stayed much longer with t= hem after the questions and book signing were completed. Past the store's = closing time, actually. (Questions and answers were in both English and Ar= abic. Many listeners were taking supplemental English language classes, and= a few teachers were also there.) There has been a dramatic rise in the writing, publishing and sales of= women's work in the last two years from Arab countries where previously it= was little published, as well as a great interest in countries outside the= Arabic speaking world. Now a great number of the books are quickly transl= ated and have been selling very well. =20 Rajaa Alsanea didn't claim to be a "deep writer"--but the book obvious= ly meant a lot to the Muslim attendees of both sexes, and is playing a part= in the rising appearance of Arab women writers on the world's best seller = lists. Girls of Riyadh isn't regarded as an anomoly in its depictions of (= upper class) Saudi women's lives, but actually very realistic. It was bann= ed for presenting a few scenes which have not been described before, not fo= r presenting things which do not actually happen. It was pointed out by an= audience member that though a book may be officially banned, it still circ= ulates widely in bootleg copies or foreign translations. The feeling of a = number of speakers was that with time and the high profiles and profits of = women's writing, the bans on certain books will begin to be lifted.=20 > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 20:51:29 -0400 > From: ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET > Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > what about email correspondence? I once started a story made solely of > answering machine messages. what will follow--a text message novel?! > what abt hypertext as a form & more recent multi-media stuff? >=20 >=20 > On 10/4/07 10:42 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: >=20 > > The list seems somewhat random, though mostly very recent. What are > > your boundaries? There are thousands of possible texts: it's a very > > old form--Eloise and Abelard, for instance, and it was a dominant > > form for the novel in England and France in the 18th > > century--Richardson, Laclos, Rousseau, etc. Letters themselves, as in > > your mention of Dickinson--what about St Paul? > >=20 > > Mark > >=20 > > At 12:50 AM 10/4/2007, you wrote: > >> Hi, > >>=20 > >> I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a > >> course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in > >> fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by > >> writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material > >> that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that > >> claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm > >> going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > >> ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter > >> form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and > >> single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about > >> epistolary form. > >>=20 > >> I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done > >> epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs > >> to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > >>=20 > >> Bellamie > >> Brown (Laynie) > >> Celan > >> Clark > >> Dickinson > >> Fraser > >> Frym > >> Ginsberg > >> Hughes > >> Hunt > >> Kafka > >> Knight > >> Mayer > >> Muske > >> Neidecker > >> Neruda > >> Notley > >> O'Hara > >> Creeley > >> Palmer > >> Pound > >> Schlovsky > >> Spicer > >> West (Nathaniel) > >> Woolf > >>=20 > >> Many thanks, > >> Sarah Rosenthal _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 21:30:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sarah Rosenthal Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Thanks so much to all the people who've responded to my query with suggestions. You've given me an amazing range of material to explore and jogged my memory about other texts I was familiar with but hadn't been thinking of. Best, Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 03:45:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maureen Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Has anyone mentioned the Color Purple by Alice Walker? Maureen Robins on 10/4/07 12:21 PM, Shaunanne Tangney at shaunanne.tangney@MINOTSTATEU.EDU wrote: > If you are interested in actual epistolary novels, early American > literature is replete with them, especially written by women--"the > women's weepy" in derisive terms, or, sentimental fiction is less > derisive terms. My favorite is Hannah Webster Foster's _The Coquette_, > but there are numerous other examples. The Wikipedia entry for > "epistolary novel" lists important early ones from Aphra Beha and and > Samuel Richardson, and interesting late ones from Nabokov and CS > Lewis--it's worth a look. > --ShaunAnne > > > On Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 11:50 PM, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course >> I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and >> poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of >> fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material that approaches >> the letter form obliquely, such as material that claims to be >> epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm going to do some >> direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a ton....more looking at >> things that specifically enact the letter form in some way. I'm >> interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. I'm also >> interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. >> >> I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles >> in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel >> free to backchannel if you'd prefer. >> >> Bellamie >> Brown (Laynie) >> Celan >> Clark >> Dickinson >> Fraser >> Frym >> Ginsberg >> Hughes >> Hunt >> Kafka >> Knight >> Mayer >> Muske >> Neidecker >> Neruda >> Notley >> O'Hara >> Creeley >> Palmer >> Pound >> Schlovsky >> Spicer >> West (Nathaniel) >> Woolf >> >> Many thanks, >> Sarah Rosenthal >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:53:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: colin herd Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <883759.32777.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No-one seems to have mentioned Diane di Prima's 'Revolutionary Letters'. Awesome book. col. On 10/4/07, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, as > well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and poetry). > I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form obliquely, > such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, > etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in > some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single pieces. > I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in > one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free to > backchannel if you'd prefer. > > Bellamie > Brown (Laynie) > Celan > Clark > Dickinson > Fraser > Frym > Ginsberg > Hughes > Hunt > Kafka > Knight > Mayer > Muske > Neidecker > Neruda > Notley > O'Hara > Creeley > Palmer > Pound > Schlovsky > Spicer > West (Nathaniel) > Woolf > > Many thanks, > Sarah Rosenthal > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 07:11:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Pt 2 of Errol Morris' Series on iconic war foto "In the Valley of the Shadow of Death" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Second part of Oscar winning documentary film maker Errol Morris' fascinating researches, interviews, & trip to Crimea to investigate the "truth" behind the first iconic war foto, Fenton's "In the Valley of the Shadow of Death". (This part includes, as did the first, some great examinations of texts also, including one from Tolstoy, who participated in the war.) Note: this Valley is not the "Valley of Death" in Kipling's famous poem re the "Charge of the Light Brigade," also quoted in the article http://morris.blogs.nytimes.com/?th&emc=th --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:27:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vireo Nefer Subject: Re: 96 Teardrops In-Reply-To: <774505.3467.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline the first 45 i ever bought. less than a buck at the local grocery store. so long, long ago. Vireo On 10/2/07, Stephen Vincent wrote: > In Performance, Garland Jeffries always did a great job > on this. Somehow it was hard to hear it without simultaneously > laughing, the pathos was so overboard, > but the beat was terrific. > > 96 Tears > (Written by Ruby Martinez) > Question Mark & the Mysterians > Garland Jeffries > Todd Rundgren > > > Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin' > Too many teardrops for one heart to carry on > You're way on top now > Since you left me > You're always laughin' > Way down at me > But watch out now > I'm gonna get there > We'll be together > For just a little while > And then I'm gonna put you > Way down here > And you'll start cryin' > Ninety-six tears > Cry > Cry > > And when the sun comes up > I'll be on top > You'll be way down there > Lookin' up > And I might wave > Come up here > But I don't see you > Wavin' now > I'm way down here > Wonderin' how > I'm gonna get you > But I know now > I'll just cry, cry, I'll just cry > > Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin' > Too many teardrops for one heart > To carry on > You're gonna cry ninety-six tears > You're gonna cry ninety-six tears > You're gonna cry cry, cry, cry, now > You're gonna cry cry, cry, cry > Ninety-six tears c'mon and lemme hear you cry, now > Ninety-six tears (whoo!) I wanna hear you cry > Night and day, yeah, all night long > Uh-ninety-six tears cry cry cry > C'mon baby, let me hear you cry now, all night long > Uh-ninety-six tears! Yeah! C'mon now > Uh-ninety-six tears! > -- AIM: vireonefer LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=vireoibis VireoNyx Publications: http://www.vireonyxpub.org INK: http://www.inkemetic.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:45:25 -0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: silviamiho Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I have a short piece that is an echo of Ashbery, as i tried to answer to= his lines. The sands are frantic >> In the hourglass. But there is time >> To change, to utterly destroy >> That too-familiar image >> Lurking in the glass >> Each morning, at the edge of the mirror. >> John Ash= bery, from The Skaters You can have a mirror, but can = you also have the image on it? > = ( Wittgenstein) > > Each morning, mourning as the hours pass, > changes, utterly destroys some cells, > some images, some sand > grains blowing > into the face > in front > of that mirror > cage. > Silvia Miho >> A good photography gallery asked me if I could help them find a good poem= &/or poems that deal with echoes, and or mirrors. (They be doing a book)= . And the photographer is much into dealing with variously mirrored 'doub= les' - usually of the 'funk' flea market sort (cracked ceramic ears, matc= hing stereo speakers, etc.) > > Aphasia here when it comes to remembering texts/poems, appreciate any s= uggestions. Wally Stevens might be too mandarin for 'the case.' > > Thanks in advance, > > Stephen Vincent > > S=EDlvia Miho ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 04:18:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: Epistolary Forms -- Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are some wonderful epistolary or related things.... Guillaume Apollinaire's Poemes a Lou (all from private correspondance, as is much of the rest of his work) Max Jacob's correspondance The ballad form -- see Christine de Pizan especially, but also Charles d'Orleans and many others where the epistolary element is important(the "envoi" is a trace of epistolary origins, real or fictional) Clement Marot Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:27:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror In-Reply-To: <448898.89910.qm@web86001.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline There is a great "echo" section (echoes distorting the character's words) anticipating his death in John Webster's The Duchesse of Malfi. Aren't echoes integral parts of sound poems? Mirrors, indirectly echoes, play a central part in Turkish poetry: Maria Dear as life far as China shut inside an atlas tinted Lisboa one day you'll leave here Maria I search you in mirrors liar! smell of cinnamon on your face jinn in your eyes, liar! one day you'll leave here liar! Asaf Halet =C7elebi, 1953 Ciao, Murat On 10/4/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > There was a genre of echo poems in the 16th century--I remember a good on= e > by Sir Plilip Sidney. > > Stephen Vincent wrote: A good photography gallery > asked me if I could help them find a good poem &/or poems that deal with > echoes, and or mirrors. (They be doing a book). And the photographer is m= uch > into dealing with variously mirrored 'doubles' - usually of the 'funk' fl= ea > market sort (cracked ceramic ears, matching stereo speakers, etc.) > > Aphasia here when it comes to remembering texts/poems, appreciate any > suggestions. Wally Stevens might be too mandarin for 'the case.' > > Thanks in advance, > > Stephen Vincent > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 06:28:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ooh, yeah, e-mail. If it's being included, then certainly Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist" (compilation/cut piece of a year's worth of e-mails) On Oct 4, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Ruth Lepson wrote: > what about email correspondence? I once started a story made solely of > answering machine messages. what will follow--a text message novel?! > what abt hypertext as a form & more recent multi-media stuff? > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:10:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Nada Gordon and Gary Sullivan's collaborative e-mail novel Swoon. Ciao, Murat On 10/5/07, colin herd wrote: > > No-one seems to have mentioned Diane di Prima's 'Revolutionary Letters'. > Awesome book. col. > > On 10/4/07, Sarah Rosenthal wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a course I'm > > teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in fiction and poetry, > as > > well as "real" correspondence (especially by writers of fiction and > poetry). > > I'm also interested in material that approaches the letter form > obliquely, > > such as material that claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like > letters, > > etc. I'm going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not > a > > ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter form in > > some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and single > pieces. > > I'm also interested in any writing you know of about epistolary form. > > > > I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done epistles in > > one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs to mind. Feel free > to > > backchannel if you'd prefer. > > > > Bellamie > > Brown (Laynie) > > Celan > > Clark > > Dickinson > > Fraser > > Frym > > Ginsberg > > Hughes > > Hunt > > Kafka > > Knight > > Mayer > > Muske > > Neidecker > > Neruda > > Notley > > O'Hara > > Creeley > > Palmer > > Pound > > Schlovsky > > Spicer > > West (Nathaniel) > > Woolf > > > > Many thanks, > > Sarah Rosenthal > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:57:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Danveradc@AOL.COM Subject: Creeley piece by Simic now out and online... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I checked early this morning and Simic's piece is now on the NYRB's website= . But you have to pay $3 to read it or pay even more for an electronic =20 subscription. =20 The piece is basically Simic's review of the two latest collected Creeley =20 works (The CP of Robert Creeley, 1945=E2=80=931975 & The CP of Creeley 1975= =E2=80=932005). I=20 think it bears reading for Simic's attention to Creeley's interviews (which= =20 he quotes from) early on. It seems to get a bit thin two thirds of the way= =20 through. He heaps a lot of attention on Creeley's early life with some bio= =20 information and then a careful look at "For Love" and then it gets ... thin= . =20 Some highlights: =20 He likes Creeley's early work: =20 "By broad agreement, For Love is Creeley's best book. There are at least tw= o=20 dozen first-rate poems and the rest are almost all of very high quality.=20 Words (1967), from which the poem about language I just quoted comes, is an= =20 uneven book, although it has several powerful poems..." =20 But loses interest with each succeeding volume of Creeley's work... He=20 doesn't consider "Pieces" (1969) very good... =20 "There are a few good poems in his earlier manner in Pieces, but the rest o= f=20 the book doesn't amount to much. Creeley confused ideas about poetry with=20 poetry itself. Creeley had ceased to be a lyric poet and become a =20 teacher-preacher type giving us classroom demonstrations of how poetry, writ= ten according=20 to a particular theory of poetry, works." =20 There are some especially slammy lines that follow this section... =20 "If poetics were like cooking and one could write down a recipe for all of =20 one's future poems, that would be true. However, great cooks rarely bother t= o =20 consult cookbooks." =20 "This may sound harsh, but reading the hundreds of poems that Creeley wrote=20= =20 after Pieces, I could not come to any other conclusion. The second volume, T= he=20 Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1975=E2=80=932005, which has poems writt= en just =20 before he died in 2005, is especially hard going." =20 But then Simic finds something to praise in his last bit of work... =20 That's it pretty much. =20 It's in the October 25th issue of the New York Review of Books... =20 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:20:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms -- Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: <903179.32318.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Excellent suggestions!--and don't forget basically the entire works of Francois Villon-- the ballads and especially those long "letters to," those masterpieces of Gallows Humor the Legacy and The Testament! besides which all others do but pale . . . On 10/5/07, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Here are some wonderful epistolary or related > things.... > > Guillaume Apollinaire's Poemes a Lou (all from private > correspondance, as is much of the rest of his work) > Max Jacob's correspondance > The ballad form -- see Christine de Pizan especially, > but also Charles d'Orleans and many others where the > epistolary element is important(the "envoi" is a trace > of epistolary origins, real or fictional) > Clement Marot > > Amicalement, > Alex > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:37:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Natalia Ginsberg has one. I wish I could remember the title. Dillon Westbrook wrote: ooh, yeah, e-mail. If it's being included, then certainly Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist" (compilation/cut piece of a year's worth of e-mails) On Oct 4, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Ruth Lepson wrote: > what about email correspondence? I once started a story made solely of > answering machine messages. what will follow--a text message novel?! > what abt hypertext as a form & more recent multi-media stuff? > > --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 11:09:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: 96 Teardrops In-Reply-To: <464e46880710041927i952808g151bbc374dbeca93@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit brilliant. you can go on utube and see question mark performing it. one of the first chicano bands to have a crossover hit. Vireo Nefer wrote: > the first 45 i ever bought. less than a buck at the local grocery > store. so long, long ago. > Vireo > > On 10/2/07, Stephen Vincent wrote: > >> In Performance, Garland Jeffries always did a great job >> on this. Somehow it was hard to hear it without simultaneously >> laughing, the pathos was so overboard, >> but the beat was terrific. >> >> 96 Tears >> (Written by Ruby Martinez) >> Question Mark & the Mysterians >> Garland Jeffries >> Todd Rundgren >> >> >> Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin' >> Too many teardrops for one heart to carry on >> You're way on top now >> Since you left me >> You're always laughin' >> Way down at me >> But watch out now >> I'm gonna get there >> We'll be together >> For just a little while >> And then I'm gonna put you >> Way down here >> And you'll start cryin' >> Ninety-six tears >> Cry >> Cry >> >> And when the sun comes up >> I'll be on top >> You'll be way down there >> Lookin' up >> And I might wave >> Come up here >> But I don't see you >> Wavin' now >> I'm way down here >> Wonderin' how >> I'm gonna get you >> But I know now >> I'll just cry, cry, I'll just cry >> >> Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin' >> Too many teardrops for one heart >> To carry on >> You're gonna cry ninety-six tears >> You're gonna cry ninety-six tears >> You're gonna cry cry, cry, cry, now >> You're gonna cry cry, cry, cry >> Ninety-six tears c'mon and lemme hear you cry, now >> Ninety-six tears (whoo!) I wanna hear you cry >> Night and day, yeah, all night long >> Uh-ninety-six tears cry cry cry >> C'mon baby, let me hear you cry now, all night long >> Uh-ninety-six tears! Yeah! C'mon now >> Uh-ninety-six tears! >> >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:20:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you - one and all - for the wondeful outpouring of suggestions. And sorry no time to thank you indidually. Any more suggestions, of course, are welcome. Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:58:21 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate Pritts Subject: SENSATIONAL SPECTACULAR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone=97 =20 SENSATIONAL SPECTACULAR, my first full-length book, is now available from B= lazeVOX. =20 http://www.blazevox.org/bk-np.htm =20 :: Joyelle McSweeney :: Sensational Spectacular is a book of double energie= s, hurling out voluable, self-sparking poems on one side while clocking the= reader upside the head with the essential loneliness of the lyric (and the= universe) on the other. =20 =20 :: William Waltz :: If poetry were a planet without atmosphere and gravity = poor, Nate Pritts might be found trekking toward the jagged rim of a smolde= ring volcano, his space helmet gleaming in the sun. =20 http://www.blazevox.org/bk-np.htm =20 =20 Please consider picking up a copy! Thanks. =20 =20 Nate Pritts =20 =20 http://www.h-ngm-n.com/nate-pritts/ Be my friend: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/823180.Nate_Pritts _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Stop = by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Oc= tWLtagline= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 07:58:03 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms--Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT there actually is a novel--can't remember the name--of email messages between a former weatherman and someone or other. and there's that little box of messages between roommates that i recently bought and enjoy... On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Ruth Lepson wrote: > what about email correspondence? I once started a story made solely of > answering machine messages. what will follow--a text message novel?! > what abt hypertext as a form & more recent multi-media stuff? > > > On 10/4/07 10:42 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > > > The list seems somewhat random, though mostly very recent. What are > > your boundaries? There are thousands of possible texts: it's a very > > old form--Eloise and Abelard, for instance, and it was a dominant > > form for the novel in England and France in the 18th > > century--Richardson, Laclos, Rousseau, etc. Letters themselves, as in > > your mention of Dickinson--what about St Paul? > > > > Mark > > > > At 12:50 AM 10/4/2007, you wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> I'm currently collecting exemplars of epistolary form for a > >> course I'm teaching in the spring. I'm looking for examples in > >> fiction and poetry, as well as "real" correspondence (especially by > >> writers of fiction and poetry). I'm also interested in material > >> that approaches the letter form obliquely, such as material that > >> claims to be epistolary but doesn't look like letters, etc. I'm > >> going to do some direct address (e.g. New York School) but not a > >> ton....more looking at things that specifically enact the letter > >> form in some way. I'm interested in full-length works, series, and > >> single pieces. I'm also interested in any writing you know of about > >> epistolary form. > >> > >> I'm pasting in the authors I'm already aware of who've done > >> epistles in one or more genres. I'd love to hear whatever springs > >> to mind. Feel free to backchannel if you'd prefer. > >> > >> Bellamie > >> Brown (Laynie) > >> Celan > >> Clark > >> Dickinson > >> Fraser > >> Frym > >> Ginsberg > >> Hughes > >> Hunt > >> Kafka > >> Knight > >> Mayer > >> Muske > >> Neidecker > >> Neruda > >> Notley > >> O'Hara > >> Creeley > >> Palmer > >> Pound > >> Schlovsky > >> Spicer > >> West (Nathaniel) > >> Woolf > >> > >> Many thanks, > >> Sarah Rosenthal > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 11:12:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms -- Your Ideas? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is it true that Villon said "Now my neck shall feel the weight of my ass" before he was about to be hung, but had his execution... David Chirot wrote: Excellent suggestions!--and don't forget basically the entire works of Francois Villon-- the ballads and especially those long "letters to," those masterpieces of Gallows Humor the Legacy and The Testament! besides which all others do but pale . . . On 10/5/07, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Here are some wonderful epistolary or related > things.... > > Guillaume Apollinaire's Poemes a Lou (all from private > correspondance, as is much of the rest of his work) > Max Jacob's correspondance > The ballad form -- see Christine de Pizan especially, > but also Charles d'Orleans and many others where the > epistolary element is important(the "envoi" is a trace > of epistolary origins, real or fictional) > Clement Marot > > Amicalement, > Alex > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel désert à la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:47:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Subject: UBUWEB :: Featured Resources October 2007 - Joshua Clover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com -------------------------------------------- UBUWEB :: Featured Resources October 2007 -------------------------------------------- Featured Resources: October 2007 Selected by Joshua Clover 1. Guy Debord, In Girum Imus Nocte Et Consumimur Igni http://www.ubu.com/film/debord_ingirum.html 2. Guy Debord, Howlings Against Sade: http://www.ubu.com/film/debord_hurlements.html 3. Yoko Ono, "Snow Is Falling All The Time": http://ubu.artmob.ca/sound/aspen/mp3/ono2.mp3 4. Tadanori Yokoo, Three Animation Films: http://www.ubu.com/film/yokoo.html 5. Susan Sontag, "The Aesthetics of Silence": http://www.ubu.com/aspen/aspen5and6/threeEssays.html#sontag 6. Gertrude Stein, "The Making of Americans": http://media.sas.upenn.edu/pennsound/authors/Stein/1935/Stein-Gertrude_The-Making-of-Americans.mp3 7. Xu Cheng, "050414": http://mediamogul.seas.upenn.edu/pennsound/groups/China/Xu-Cheng_050414_2005.mp3 8. Patrizia Vicinelli, Seven Poems: http://ubu.artmob.ca/sound/vicinelli_patrizia/Vicinelli-Patrizia_Sette-Poemi_1967-76.mp3 9. Shaker Visual Poetry: http://www.ubu.com/ethno/visuals/shaker.html 10. Apollinaiire, "Le pont Mirabeau": http://ubu.wfmu.org/sound/apollinaire_guillaume/Apollinaire-Guillaume_Le-Pont-Mirabeau_1913.mp3 Special Offsite Bonus: Marc Lavoine, "Le pont Mirabeau": http://youtube.com/watch?v=cg0PeKE75Rc Joshua Clover teaches poetry, poetics, film studies and theories of postmodernism at University of California at Davis; his book on The Matrix for the British Film Institute is currently being translated into Russian and Czech. He has been a DJ both on the radio and in clubs; poetry books include The Totality for Kids (California, 2006) and Madonna anno domini (LSU, 1997). All the new thinking is about money; in this is resembles all the old thinking. __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com UbuWeb http://ubu.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:53:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Tonight and tomorrow! The Second Annual San Diego City College International Book Fair October 5th and 6th! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Come out tonight and tomorrow to support the... The Second Annual San Diego City College International Book Fair www.sdcitybookfair.com Friday, October 5th and Saturday, October 6th Sponsored by the San Diego City College Foundation and California Coast Credit Union Featuring: Amiri Baraka A poet, writer, political activist and teacher, Amiri Baraka is one of the nation's most influential and prolific African American artists. A vanguard in the Black arts movement, he has published numerous volumes of poetry, fiction, non-fiction, drama, and anthologies. Over the last five decades, he has also edited several important literary magazines and journals. His most recent books include Eulogies, a collection of eulogies he has give over the past 20 years, Why's/Wise, an anthology of poetry, and Jesse Jackson and Black People, a book of essays about Jackson and the African American people's struggle for democracy and self-determination. His classic study of African American self-determination, The Black Nation, was also recently reprinted. Mr. Baraka will be performing along with The Gilbert Castellanos Quartet with special guest Charles McPherson at 4:30 p.m. in the Saville Theatre. He has also agreed to give a special morning workshop for students on Saturday 10/6 at 10 a.m., room TBA. Denise Chavez A true child of La Frontera, Denise Ch=E1vez is the author of the novels Loving Pedro Infante, Face of An Angel and a short story collection, The Last of the Menu Girls, and, most recently, A Taco Testimony: Meditations on Family, Food and Culture, a memoir in food. She has also published a children's book, La Mujer Que Sab=EDa El Idioma de Los Animales/The Woman Who Knew the Language of the Animals. The author of many plays, she considers herself a performance writer. Ch=E1vez' latest book was published in July 2006 by R=EDo Nuevo Publishers. Ms. Chavez will be performing at 3:00 on Saturday 10/6 in the Saville Theatre and she has also agreed to give a special workshop for Puente and other students in the District on Saturday 10/6 at 10 a.m. in the Saville Theatre. Rebecca Solnit Rebecca Solnit is the author of eleven books, including Storming the Gates of Paradise: Landscapes for Politics, forthcoming this spring from U.C. Press, 2004's Hope in the Dark: Untold Histories, Wild Possibilities, and 2003's River of Shadows: Eadweard Muybridge and the Technological Wild West, which won a Guggenheim in its research phase and several awards, including the National Book Critics Circle Award in Criticism, after publication. Ms. Solnit will be performing at 2:00 p.m. on Saturday, 10/6 in the Saville Theatre. Quincy Troupe The first official Poet Laureate of the State of California, Quincy Troupe, is the author of 17 books. His distinctions include a 2005 Barnes & Noble Writers for Writers Award, 2 American Book Awards (for poetry and non-fiction), the Milt Kessler Award for Poetry, a Peabody Award for co-producing and writing the Miles Davis Radio Project, and his segment on Bill Moyers' Power of the Word, "The Living Language," won a television Emmy Award. For over 20 years, he taught the craft of writing at Columbia University's Graduate Writing Program and at the University of California, San Diego, where he is professor emeritus. Currently, he is editor of Black Renaissance Noire, a journal of literature, the arts and political thought, published at New York University. Mr. Troupe will be performing at 7:00 p.m. on Friday, 10/5 in the Saville Theatre. Oakley Hall Oakley Hall was born and raised in San Diego and Hawaii, attended San Diego State College, and took his BA from the University of California at Berkeley in l943. He served as a Marine lieutenant in WWII. He received an MFA from the University of Iowa in l950. He was Director of the Programs in Writing at the University of California at Irvine for 20 years, and was a founder of the Community of Writers at Squaw Valley, a summer writers' conference currently in its 38th year He has published 16 novels including Corpus of Joe Bailey, Warlock and this year's Love and War in California, and 11 mystery novels, including the Ambrose Bierce quintet. Two of his novels, Warlock and the Downhill Racers were made into successful films. Mr. Hall will be performing at 11:00 a.m. on Saturday, 10/6 in the Saville Theatre. David Bacon David Bacon is a writer and photojournalist based in Oakland and Berkeley, California. He is an associate editor at Pacific News Service, and writes for TruthOut, The Nation, The American Prospect, The Progressive, LA Weekly, and the San Francisco Chronicle, among other publications. He has been a reporter and documentary photographer for 18 years, shooting for many national publications. He has has exhibited his work nationally, and in Mexico, the UK and Germany. Bacon covers issues of labor, immigration and international politics. He travels frequently to Mexico, the Philippines, Europe and Iraq. He hosts a half-hour weekly radio show on labor, immigration and the global economy on KPFA-FM, and is a frequent guest on KQED-TV's This Week in Northern California. Mr. Bacon will be performing at 1:00 p.m. on Saturday, 10/6 in the Saville Theatre. Daniel Reveles Mexican author Daniel Reveles' award-winning books Tequila, Lemon, and Salt, Enchiladas, Rice, and Beans and Salsa and Chips, appear on required reading lists at colleges and universities across the country. He enjoys a diversified audience of both non-Latino and Latino readers, because he takes the former to where they've never been, and the latter to where they have been. A popular storyteller, he frequently travels around the country, speaking to university audiences and creative writing students. Reveles lives and writes in the company of coyotes on a ranch on the outskirts of Tecate, and has recently completed his fourth collection of stories. Mr. Reveles will be performing at 12:00 noon on Saturday, 10/6 in the Saville Theatre. Adri=E1n Arancibia Adri=E1n Arancibia is a poet, writer, and educator. He, along with Adolfo Guzm=E1n-L=F3pez and Miguel-=C1ngel Soria, founded the seminal Chicano spoken-word collective the Taco Shop Poets in 1994. Adri=E1n Arancibia was born in Iquique, Chile in 1971. Since 1980, he has resided in San Diego, California. Arancibia is the co-editor of the Taco Shop Poets Anthology: Chorizo Tonguefire and currently writes for the San Diego Union Tribune and for national magazines like The Green Magazine. Mr. Arancibia will be performing at 7 p.m. on Friday, 10/5 in the Saville Theatre. His book, Los Atacama Poems is now available on San Diego City Works Press at www.cityworkspress.org . Mel Freilicher Mel Freilicher is a longtime San Diego resident who was publisher and co-editor of CRAWL OUT YOUR WINDOW for 15 years, a magazine of regional literature and arts; he was an activist, including working with downtown artists groups; did a stint as a performance artist, and was the first Vice-President of the Board of Sushi. Freilicher has been anthologized in Sun and Moon press' Contemporary American Fiction, and has chapbooks out from Standing Stones Press and Obscure publications. Mr. Freilicher will be performing at 7 p.m. on Friday, 10/5 in the Saville Theatre. His new novel, The Unmaking of Americans: 7 Lives is now available on San Diego City Works Press at www.cityworkspress.org . Kim Stringfellow Kim Stringfellow is an artist and educator living in San Diego, California. She teaches multimedia and photography at San Diego State University. Her professional practice and research interests address ecological, historical, and activist issues related to land use and the built environment through hybrid documentary forms incorporating writing, digital media, photography, audio, video, installation, and locative media. Ms Stringfellow's art will be on display in the Saville Theatre for the duration of the Book Fair weekend. The Book Fair will feature concerts by: Noted San Diego jazz musicians The Gilbert Castellanos Quartet with Special Guest Charles McPherson San Diego based trumpeter Gilbert Castellanos is a major force on the San Diego jazz scene and one of the leading trumpeters in the Southern California area. Castellanos is known equally for his work as a leader and as a member of two top jazz ensembles in the Los Angeles area- guitarist Anthony Wilson's Nonet, and one of today's most critically acclaimed big bands, the Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra. Underground is his latest release on Seedling Records. Cellist Extraordinaire Zo=EB Keating Cellist Zo=EB Keating is a one-woman string quartet, using live electronic sampling to create "layers of sound, that feel more like orchestrations than a solo instrument" (National Public Radio.) She has performed across North America and Europe, including 4 tours supporting and accompanying Grammy-nominated artist Imogen Heap. Zo=EB's self-released album One Cello x 16: Natoma made it to #2 on the iTunes classical and electronica charts. Ms. Keating will perform at 7 p.m. on Friday, 10/5 in the Saville Theatre. Please join us for a week of literary delights, over 50 book and music vendors, art, food, and much more! Other Book Fair Week events: Tuesday 10/2 from 9:35-11 a.m. in the Saville Theatre: Alex Espinoza, Still Water Saints Wednesday 10/3 from 11:15-12:35 in D121 at City College: Sara Bongiorni, A Year Without "Made in China": One Family's True Life Adventure in the Global Economy Thursday 10/4 from 11:15-12:35 in D121 at City College: Steven Hiatt, A Game as Old as Empire: The Secret World of Economic Hit Men and the Web of Global Corruption San Diego City Works Press books are available through our website www.cityworkspress.org and may be ordered through our distributor, Sunbelt Publications. The San Diego City College Literary Center would like to thank President Terry Burgess for his support and generosity; the American Federation of Teachers Local 1931; the City College World Cultures Program; City College Associated Students; the City College English, ESOL, Philosophy, Humanities, and Labor Studies Department; the City College Honors Program; the City College Chicano Studies and Black Studies Departments; the City College Title V Program; the Puente Program; Jazz 88 (KSDS 88.3); the San Diego Booksellers Association; Sunbelt Publications; the San Diego CityBeat; the San Diego Union-Tribune; the San Diego Reader; Harcourt Trade Publishers; and the City College Bookstore. For more information on the Book Fair, please contact Jim Miller, Director at jmiller@sdccd.edu --=20 All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:08:54 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura oliver Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror In-Reply-To: <314064.58142.qm@web82611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Bottle In the River by Robert Desnos deals with reflection in shards of broken glass bottle and the poem has a sort of an echo itself, a circular feel- I love this poem, and a Surrealist poet might be a good fit for the subject matter also by Desnos- The Mirror and the World (personally not one of my Desnos favorites, but might work for the gallery) If I think of more, I'll let you know... Laura ----Original Message Follows---- From: Stephen Vincent Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:44:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu ([128.205.7.57]) by bay0-mc11-f8.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:54:15 -0700 Received: (qmail 15551 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2007 21:53:59 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 4 Oct 2007 21:53:59 -0000 Received: by LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id 2965153 for POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; Thu, 4 Oct 2007 17:53:58 -0400 Received: (qmail 25707 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2007 21:44:51 -0000 Received: from mailscan7.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.158) by listserv.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 4 Oct 2007 21:44:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 17192 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2007 21:44:51 -0000 Received: from web82611.mail.mud.yahoo.com (68.142.201.128) by smtp1.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 4 Oct 2007 21:44:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 58551 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Oct 2007 21:44:50 -0000 Received: from [70.132.17.114] by web82611.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:44:50 PDT X-Message-Delivery: Vj0zLjQuMDt1cz0wO2k9MDtsPTA7YT0w X-Message-Info: R00BdL5giqqGP4p/xzC4qtRIirx0+yWfbgMzMTABYFfJk7Ma5u6uco4kYYIEwf3rtteyd30ndhfVuNNniTvSjg== Approved-By: poetics.list@GMAIL.COM Delivered-To: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu X-YMail-OSG: WBpVsUwVM1m5iz55bSozkZQFtk3OzbMYCC_WoZe.in.gWGKCMVL9lQvodxGCLKTEx4VqvA3bIA-- X-UB-Relay: (web82611.mail.mud.yahoo.com) X-PM-Spam-Prob: : 7% Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: Return-Path: owner-poetics@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Oct 2007 21:54:15.0211 (UTC) FILETIME=[1B114FB0:01C806D1] A good photography gallery asked me if I could help them find a good poem &/or poems that deal with echoes, and or mirrors. (They be doing a book). And the photographer is much into dealing with variously mirrored 'doubles' - usually of the 'funk' flea market sort (cracked ceramic ears, matching stereo speakers, etc.) Aphasia here when it comes to remembering texts/poems, appreciate any suggestions. Wally Stevens might be too mandarin for 'the case.' Thanks in advance, Stephen Vincent _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:40:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The best mirror poem, entitled Mirror, by Sylvia Plath, master of the extended metaphor-- Mirror I am silver and exact. I have no preconceptions. Whatever I see I swallow immediately Just as it is, unmisted by love or dislike. I am not cruel, only truthful- The eye of the little god, four cornered. Most of the time I meditate on the opposite wall. It is pink, with speckles. I have looked at it so long I think it is a part of my heart. But it flickers. Faces and darkness separate us over and over. Now I am a lake. A woman bends over me, Searching my reaches for what she really is. Then she turns to those liars, the candles or the moon. I see her back, and reflect it faithfully. She rewards me with tears and an agitation of hands. I am important to her. She comes and goes. Each morning it is her face that replaces the darkness. In me she has drowned a young girl, and in me an old woman Rises toward her day after day, like a terrible fish. silviamiho wrote: >I have a short piece that is an echo of Ashbery, as i tried to answer to his lines. The sands are frantic >> In the hourglass. But there is time >> To change, to utterly destroy >> That too-familiar image >> Lurking in the glass >> Each morning, at the edge of the mirror. >> John Ashbery, from The Skaters You can have a mirror, but can you also have the image on it? > ( Wittgenstein) > > Each morning, mourning as the hours pass, > changes, utterly destroys some cells, > some images, some sand > grains blowing > into the face > in front > of that mirror > cage. > Silvia Miho >> A good photography gallery asked me if I could help them find a good poem &/or poems that deal with echoes, and or mirrors. (They be doing a book). And the photographer is much into dealing with variously mirrored 'doubles' - usually of the 'funk' flea market sort (cracked ceramic ears, matching stereo speakers, etc.) > > Aphasia here when it comes to remembering texts/poems, appreciate any suggestions. Wally Stevens might be too mandarin for 'the case.' > > Thanks in advance, > > Stephen Vincent > > Sílvia Miho --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 16:55:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project October 2007 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends, These are the events for the coming week. Will Alexander, previously scheduled to read on Wednesday, had to cancel. Susan Landers will read with Julie Patton. Also, the workshops begin. Sign up very soon or you=B9ll miss out! Your Pal,=20 The Poetry Project MONDAY, October 8, 8 PM Kass Fleisher & Dante Micheaux Kass Fleisher is the author of The Bear River Massacre and the Making of History; Accidental Species: A Reproduction; The Adventurous; and Talking Out of School: Memoir of an Educated Woman. Her work has appeared in The Iowa Review, Denver Quarterly, Bombay Gin and electronic book review, among other journals. She is an Assistant Professor of English at Illinois State University in Normal. Dante Micheaux is a poet whose work has appeared in various journals and anthologies =8B including Bloom and Callaloo. In 2002, Micheaux received a prize in poetry from the Vera List Center for Art & Politics. He is a Cave Canem Fellow, recipient of the Oscar Wilde Award and a New York Times Fellowship. Micheaux is a candidate for a Master of Fine Arts degree in Creative Writing at New York University and resides in Manhattan. WEDNESDAY, October 10, 8 PM Julie Patton & Susan Landers Julie Patton is a performance artist and writer. She is busy working on various community development/greenspace/sustainability projects under the rubric of Think Green! Her chapbook Notes for Some (Nominally) Awake is available from Portable Press at Yo Yo Labs . Julie often takes to the road for various collaborative projects with Uri Caine, and is a fellow at Bates College's Common Grounds Project in Maine, where she collaborates with Jonathan Skinner. She is a 2007 NYFA Poetry Fellow. Susan Landers is the author of 248 mgs., a panic picnic (O Books, 2003) and Covers (O Books, 2007). Her work has appeared in 26 Magazine, Magazine Cypress, Aufgabe, and Chicago Review. She is also co-editor of the Pom2, a journal of poetic polylogue that publishes poems which directly engage or respond to work published in previous issues, with the aim of making the magazine's content= s the "property of many=B2 (http://www.pompompress.com/). She lives in Brooklyn= . WRITING WORKSHOPS AT THE POETRY PROJECT: =20 BASIC AND BOLD: LOGOS R US =AD PATRICIA SPEARS JONES TUESDAYS AT 7PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN OCTOBER 9TH =20 Every writer finds a niche, a gesture, the thing that works in what they do= . At some point it may become a style or convention. Sometimes it becomes a crutch. One way to break the mode is to be radical=8Bthat is, return to the roots. What brought you to poetry in the first place? This is a workshop for writers who want to re-look at how the structure and elements of poetry provide the wherewithal to make poems that are as ambitious, thoughtful and innovative as you want them to be. There will be in class writing, assignments, reading, and a revision project called =8BCAN THIS POEM BE SAVED?=8B in which you bring a poem that simply has not come to closure; seem= s to be stuck; or needs to be looked at by fresh eyes in the hope of finding what could make it work. This workshop is geared toward writers who have been seriously writing for some time. Please submit 5-8 pages of poetry an= d a brief description of what you=B9d like to accomplish in the workshop by September 28. African American poet, playwright and cultural commentator, Patricia Spears Jones is author of two collections, Femme du Monde and The Weather That Kills. =20 POETRY LAB: FORMS OF JOYFUL EXPERIMENTATION =AD TODD COLBY=20 FRIDAYS AT 7PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN OCTOBER 12TH In this workshop we'll forge new paths to the poem by investigating how far a poem can depart from being =B3a poem=B2 and yet still be a poem. We'll experiment with breath, heartbeat, movement, blogs, the alchemy of words, visions, letters to the editor, spontaneity, psychoanalysis, collaborations= , appropriations and self-hypnosis, along with various traditional forms. The main objective is to create a supportive and inviting atmosphere in our joyfully experimental "Lab." A partial reading list will include: Hannah Weiner, Jacques Lacan, Gertrude Stein, Diane Williams, David Markson, Miranda July, Thomas Bernhard, Bill Knott, Arthur Rimbaud, Alice Notley, Mina Loy, Charles Olson, and Ludwig Wittgenstein. Todd Colby is the author of Tremble & Shine, Riot in the Charm Factory, Cush, and Ripsnort, all of which were published by Soft Skull Press. =20 WORLDLY AND INFINITELY DIMENSIONAL: A WORKSHOP =AD RACHEL LEVITSKY SATURDAYS AT 12PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN OCTOBER 13 =20 In these times, the possibilities by which we may amplify, record, document= , display, shape, formulate, and publish words increases daily. Although expanded media and its wide reach are in themselves a meaningful fact of ou= r times, they don=B9t necessarily enhance a poetry=B9s resonance. How do we, and by we I mean both ourselves as ones and ourselves as groups, best construct and perform our poetries so as to be present in these particular times and yet open to the infinite possibilities of =B3projection,=B2 =B3conception,=B2 =B3performance=B2? Familiarizing ourselves with poets like Abigail Child, Julie Patton, Cecilia Vicu=F1a, Bob Dylan, Linton Kwesi Johnson (some will be visiting the workshop), we will consider all means available and any means necessary to project living works into our world. Individually and collaboratively we=B9ll construct performances, visual works, sound events, improvisations, etc. Rachel Levitsky is the author of Under the Sun (Futurepoem) and is the founder and co-editor of Belladonna Books. =20 =20 The workshop fee is $350, which includes a one-year individual Poetry Project membership and tuition for any and all fall spring and fall classes= . Reservations are required due to limited class space, and payment must be received in advance. Please send payment and reservations to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark=B9s Church, 131 E. 10th St., NY, NY 10003. For more information please call (212)674-0910 or e-mail info@poetryproject.com. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 22:27:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. Wellman" Subject: Creeley crit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a lovely issues of Jacket with several substantial essays and responses to Creeley's work. Oct. 2006. http://jacketmagazine.com/31/index.shtml I can bear with Simic, free country, free speech, and all that, and yes he is especially hard in his critique of Creeley's Pieces and that book is dear to many on this list I think. He does have some generous things to say about some late poems, as do I in my piece in the Jacket cited above. He has very warm things to sat about Creeley as a friend and a human being. What I wanted to say though is why not try to speak with passion to the fever that stirs the engaged reader and be generous about sharing those thoughts, leaving the bickering to less generous minds. Donald Wellman http://faculty.dwc.edu/wellman/don.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Creeley piece by Simic now out and online... I checked early this morning and Simic's piece is now on the NYRB's website. But you have to pay $3 to read it or pay even more for an electronic subscription. The piece is basically Simic's review of the two latest collected Creeley works (The CP of Robert Creeley, 1945–1975 & The CP of Creeley 1975–2005). I think it bears reading for Simic's attention to Creeley's interviews (which he quotes from) early on. It seems to get a bit thin two thirds of the way through. He heaps a lot of attention on Creeley's early life with some bio information and then a careful look at "For Love" and then it gets ... thin. Some highlights: He likes Creeley's early work: "By broad agreement, For Love is Creeley's best book. There are at least two dozen first-rate poems and the rest are almost all of very high quality. Words (1967), from which the poem about language I just quoted comes, is an uneven book, although it has several powerful poems..." But loses interest with each succeeding volume of Creeley's work... He doesn't consider "Pieces" (1969) very good... "There are a few good poems in his earlier manner in Pieces, but the rest of the book doesn't amount to much. Creeley confused ideas about poetry with poetry itself. Creeley had ceased to be a lyric poet and become a teacher-preacher type giving us classroom demonstrations of how poetry, written according to a particular theory of poetry, works." There are some especially slammy lines that follow this section... "If poetics were like cooking and one could write down a recipe for all of one's future poems, that would be true. However, great cooks rarely bother to consult cookbooks." "This may sound harsh, but reading the hundreds of poems that Creeley wrote after Pieces, I could not come to any other conclusion. The second volume, The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1975–2005, which has poems written just before he died in 2005, is especially hard going." But then Simic finds something to praise in his last bit of work... That's it pretty much. It's in the October 25th issue of the New York Review of Books... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 23:56:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Tonight and tomorrow! The Second Annual San Diego City College International Book Fair October 5th and 6th! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Given the rich literary world that begins at the=20 border nine miles south of San Diego City=20 College, one might have hoped that a Mexican=20 writer or two would be included in an=20 international book fair--there are plenty to be had in Tijuana and Mexicali. Mark At 03:53 PM 10/5/2007, you wrote: >Come out tonight and tomorrow to support the... > > > > >The Second Annual San Diego City College > >International Book Fair > >www.sdcitybookfair.com > > > >Friday, October 5th and Saturday, October 6th > >Sponsored by the San Diego City College Foundation > >and California Coast Credit Union > > > >Featuring: > > > >Amiri Baraka > >A poet, writer, political activist and teacher, Amiri Baraka is one of >the nation's most influential and prolific African American artists. A >vanguard in the Black arts movement, he has published numerous volumes >of poetry, fiction, non-fiction, drama, and anthologies. Over the last >five decades, he has also edited several important literary magazines >and journals. > His most recent books include Eulogies, a collection of eulogies he >has give over the past 20 years, Why's/Wise, an anthology of poetry, >and Jesse Jackson and Black People, a book of essays about Jackson and >the African American people's struggle for democracy and >self-determination. His classic study of African American >self-determination, The Black Nation, was also recently reprinted. > >Mr. Baraka will be performing along with The Gilbert Castellanos >Quartet with special guest Charles McPherson at 4:30 p.m. in the >Saville Theatre. He has also agreed to give a special morning >workshop for students on Saturday 10/6 at 10 a.m., room TBA. > > > >Denise Chavez > >A true child of La Frontera, Denise Ch=E1vez is the author of the novels >Loving Pedro Infante, Face of An Angel and a short story collection, >The Last of the Menu Girls, and, most recently, A Taco Testimony: >Meditations on Family, Food and Culture, a memoir in food. She has >also published a children's book, La Mujer Que Sab=EDa El Idioma de Los >Animales/The Woman Who Knew the Language of the Animals. The author >of many plays, she considers herself a performance writer. Ch=E1vez' >latest book was published in July 2006 by R=EDo Nuevo Publishers. > >Ms. Chavez will be performing at 3:00 on Saturday 10/6 in the Saville >Theatre and she has also agreed to give a special workshop for Puente >and other students in the District on Saturday 10/6 at 10 a.m. in the >Saville Theatre. > > > >Rebecca Solnit > >Rebecca Solnit is the author of eleven books, including Storming the >Gates of Paradise: Landscapes for Politics, forthcoming this spring >from U.C. Press, 2004's Hope in the Dark: Untold Histories, Wild >Possibilities, and 2003's River of Shadows: Eadweard Muybridge and the >Technological Wild West, which won a Guggenheim in its research phase >and several awards, including the National Book Critics Circle Award >in Criticism, after publication. Ms. Solnit will be performing at >2:00 p.m. on Saturday, 10/6 in the Saville Theatre. > > > >Quincy Troupe > >The first official Poet Laureate of the State of California, Quincy >Troupe, is the author of 17 books. His distinctions include a 2005 >Barnes & Noble Writers for Writers Award, 2 American Book Awards (for >poetry and non-fiction), the Milt Kessler Award for Poetry, a Peabody >Award for co-producing and writing the Miles Davis Radio Project, and >his segment on Bill Moyers' Power of the Word, "The Living Language," >won a television Emmy Award. For over 20 years, he taught the craft of >writing at Columbia University's Graduate Writing Program and at the >University of California, San Diego, where he is professor emeritus. >Currently, he is editor of Black Renaissance Noire, a journal of >literature, the arts and political thought, published at New York >University. Mr. Troupe will be performing at 7:00 p.m. on Friday, >10/5 in the Saville Theatre. > > > >Oakley Hall > >Oakley Hall was born and raised in San Diego and Hawaii, attended San >Diego State College, and took his BA from the University of California >at Berkeley in l943. He served as a Marine lieutenant in WWII. He >received an MFA from the University of Iowa in l950. He was Director >of the Programs in Writing at the University of California at Irvine >for 20 years, and was a founder of the Community of Writers at Squaw >Valley, a summer writers' conference currently in its 38th year He has >published 16 novels including Corpus of Joe Bailey, Warlock and this >year's Love and War in California, and 11 mystery novels, including >the Ambrose Bierce quintet. Two of his novels, Warlock and the >Downhill Racers were made into successful films. Mr. Hall will be >performing at 11:00 a.m. on Saturday, 10/6 in the Saville Theatre. > > > >David Bacon > >David Bacon is a writer and photojournalist based in Oakland and >Berkeley, California. He is an associate editor at Pacific News >Service, and writes for TruthOut, The Nation, The American Prospect, >The Progressive, LA Weekly, and the San Francisco Chronicle, among >other publications. He has been a reporter and documentary >photographer for 18 years, shooting for many national publications. >He has has exhibited his work nationally, and in Mexico, the UK and >Germany. >Bacon covers issues of labor, immigration and international politics. >He travels frequently to Mexico, the Philippines, Europe and Iraq. He >hosts a half-hour weekly radio show on labor, immigration and the >global economy on KPFA-FM, and is a frequent guest on KQED-TV's This >Week in Northern California. Mr. Bacon will be performing at 1:00 >p.m. on Saturday, 10/6 in the Saville Theatre. > > > >Daniel Reveles > >Mexican author Daniel Reveles' award-winning books Tequila, Lemon, and >Salt, Enchiladas, Rice, and Beans and Salsa and Chips, appear on >required reading lists at colleges and universities across the >country. He enjoys a diversified audience of both non-Latino and >Latino readers, because he takes the former to where they've never >been, and the latter to where they have been. >A popular storyteller, he frequently travels around the country, >speaking to university audiences and creative writing students. >Reveles lives and writes in the company of coyotes on a ranch on the >outskirts of Tecate, and has recently completed his fourth collection >of stories. Mr. Reveles will be performing at 12:00 noon on Saturday, >10/6 in the Saville Theatre. > > > > > >Adri=E1n Arancibia > >Adri=E1n Arancibia is a poet, writer, and educator. He, along with >Adolfo Guzm=E1n-L=F3pez and Miguel-=C1ngel Soria, founded the seminal >Chicano spoken-word collective the Taco Shop Poets in 1994. Adri=E1n >Arancibia was born in Iquique, Chile in 1971. Since 1980, he has >resided in San Diego, California. Arancibia is the co-editor of the >Taco Shop Poets Anthology: Chorizo Tonguefire and currently writes for >the San Diego Union Tribune and for national magazines like The Green >Magazine. Mr. Arancibia will be performing at 7 p.m. on Friday, 10/5 >in the Saville Theatre. His book, Los Atacama Poems is now available >on San Diego City Works Press at www.cityworkspress.org > . > > > > > >Mel Freilicher > >Mel Freilicher is a longtime San Diego resident who was publisher and >co-editor of CRAWL OUT YOUR WINDOW for 15 years, a magazine of >regional literature and arts; he was an activist, including working >with downtown artists groups; did a stint as a performance artist, and >was the first Vice-President of the Board of Sushi. Freilicher has >been anthologized in Sun and Moon press' Contemporary American >Fiction, and has chapbooks out from Standing Stones Press and Obscure >publications. Mr. Freilicher will be performing at 7 p.m. on Friday, >10/5 in the Saville Theatre. His new novel, The Unmaking of >Americans: 7 Lives is now available on San Diego City Works Press at >www.cityworkspress.org . > > > >Kim Stringfellow > >Kim Stringfellow is an artist and educator living in San Diego, >California. She teaches multimedia and photography at San Diego State >University. Her professional practice and research interests address >ecological, historical, and activist issues related to land use and >the built environment through hybrid documentary forms incorporating >writing, digital media, photography, audio, video, installation, and >locative media. Ms Stringfellow's art will be on display in the >Saville Theatre for the duration of the Book Fair weekend. > > > >The Book Fair will feature concerts by: > > > > Noted San Diego jazz musicians > >The Gilbert Castellanos Quartet with Special Guest Charles McPherson > >San Diego based trumpeter Gilbert Castellanos is a major force on the >San Diego jazz scene and one of the leading trumpeters in the Southern >California area. Castellanos is known equally for his work as a leader >and as a member of two top jazz ensembles in the Los Angeles area- >guitarist Anthony Wilson's Nonet, and one of today's most critically >acclaimed big bands, the Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra. Underground >is his latest release on Seedling Records. > > > >Cellist Extraordinaire Zo=EB Keating > >Cellist Zo=EB Keating is a one-woman string quartet, using live >electronic sampling to create "layers of sound, that feel more like >orchestrations than a solo instrument" (National Public Radio.) She >has performed across North America and Europe, including 4 tours >supporting and accompanying Grammy-nominated artist Imogen Heap. Zo=EB's >self-released album One Cello x 16: Natoma made it to #2 on the iTunes >classical and electronica charts. Ms. Keating will perform at 7 p.m. >on Friday, 10/5 in the Saville Theatre. > > > >Please join us for a week of literary delights, over 50 book and music >vendors, art, food, and much more! > > > >Other Book Fair Week events: > > > >Tuesday 10/2 from 9:35-11 a.m. in the Saville Theatre: > >Alex Espinoza, Still Water Saints > > > >Wednesday 10/3 from 11:15-12:35 in D121 at City College: > >Sara Bongiorni, A Year Without "Made in China": One Family's True Life >Adventure in the Global Economy > > > >Thursday 10/4 from 11:15-12:35 in D121 at City College: > >Steven Hiatt, A Game as Old as Empire: The Secret World of Economic >Hit Men and the Web of Global Corruption > > > >San Diego City Works Press books are available through our website >www.cityworkspress.org and may be >ordered through our distributor, Sunbelt Publications. > > > >The San Diego City College Literary Center would like to thank >President Terry Burgess for his support and generosity; the American >Federation of Teachers Local 1931; the City College World Cultures >Program; City College Associated Students; the City College English, >ESOL, Philosophy, Humanities, and Labor Studies Department; the City >College Honors Program; the City College Chicano Studies and Black >Studies Departments; the City College Title V Program; the Puente >Program; Jazz 88 (KSDS 88.3); the San Diego Booksellers Association; >Sunbelt Publications; the San Diego CityBeat; the San Diego >Union-Tribune; the San Diego Reader; Harcourt Trade Publishers; and >the City College Bookstore. > > > >For more information on the Book Fair, please contact Jim Miller, >Director at jmiller@sdccd.edu > > > > > > > > > > > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 21:05:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Marcacci Subject: The Royal Wee Listens to i-Outlaw 2.7 featuring Sheila E. Murphy Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Narrated in Italy and produced in Canadia, take a click on over to and check the schtick. i-Outlaw 2.7 also features poetic substance by: - Jill Chan - CA Conrad - Joe Green - Paula Grenside - Christine Hamm - Carly Sachs - Luc Simonic - Matina Stamatakis - Mathew Timmons - Lenore Weiss Love to hear from you. -- Bob Marcacci ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 02:40:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Herschel Baron: Philadelphia Poet and Activist has passed away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've posted this same annoucement with a photo of Herschel on The PhillySound today: http://PhillySound.blogspot.com The news has just reached me that Herschel Baron died on October 1st of lung cancer. The last time I saw him was on a bus going down Chestnut Street. He had tubes in his nose, and he was very unstable on his feet. I was on my way to see Frank Sherlock at Jefferson and it was a day or two after we had learned his diagnosis was meningitis. Herschel couldn't see very well, but he recognized my voice. When I told him about Frank he told me a story about someone he knew who had died of meningitis years ago. My mind wasn't exactly focused on what Herschel was saying so that's about all I remember, except that as he stood to get off at his stop he told me to take care of myself and that he hoped my friend would be okay. That was nice, those parting words, now that I'm thinking about them. We didn't always have nice words between us over the years. In 1984 when I first met him he was very involved with New Formalist poet friends of his who were being published in QRL (Quarterly Review of Literature). Herschel had a way of talking to me like he needed to teach me something, saying things like, "If you're not in QRL you're not worth being read," charming things like that. Looking back I feel fortunate to have been raised by a hotheaded mother and if I didn't like what I read then that was that. There was one amazing incident I witnessed in the 1980s where I discovered who he was and what he had been through in this world while at a reading for the victims of MOVE. Herschel was one of the readers, and he made a big deal about the taping of the reading, demanding to not be taped. Some people were annoyed that he was making such a fuss. I asked Gil Ott why Herschel was doing this. Gil told me how Herschel had lost his job back in the 50s at RCA in Camden because he and other labor organizers were called into Senator McCarthy's hearings and were accused of being communists. Herschel's life was very difficult for some time after that, out of work, painted red, tossed aside. It's something he never got over, so it seems when I think about how he reacted to that taping of the MOVE event in the 80s, yelling, "THEY JUST BURNED DOWN A WHOLE BLOCK OF THE CITY AND YOU TRUST THESE PEOPLE TO NOT COME AFTER YOU!? YOU PEOPLE ARE NAIVE ABOUT HOW THIS WORLD WORKS!" He had been very brave as a young man, stuck his neck out to help make the world better for all his fellow workers. It was sad to see how haunted he remained by the witch hunt he and his friends had endured. And although Herschel and I never saw eye-to-eye on poetry, ever, I had a lot of respect for the suffering he had gone through to help change the world. Over the last few years I would see Herschel on Chestnut Street waiting for a bus and we would talk, and it was always good, though he was worried about his health, and before that worried about his wife's health. Once in a while he would ask me if I still saw this poet, or that poet. He brought up Scott Norman at one point. In particular the famous reading at Jimmy Tyoon's old place The Middle East (I don't know what it's called now), where Scott pulled a knife on Daniel Kiener in the middle of Daniel's poem about Israel needing to defend the homeland. Herschel, and Etheridge Knight, and Lamont Steptoe, Bob Small, and a whole lot of others were there, in fact I'm pretty sure it was Jerome Rothenberg who tackled Scott, but maybe I'm wrong about that. But Daniel was reading in his normal fashion, screaming, throwing his fists up and down, his long, long white beard flying all over the place. Scott jumped over a chair and lunged at him with a knife. It was just a small knife, but still, it was a knife. While Scott was being restrained, screaming about freeing the Palestinians with his face pushed into the floor, Herschel took his pipe out of his mouth and started yelling, "WHY ARE POETS SO GOD DAMNED CRAZY ALL THE TIME!? CAN'T WE EVER GET ALONG!? IT'S CRAZY HOW WE ACT! CRAZY! CRAZY! CRAZY!" There was a lot of that kind of drama back then, every week it seemed there was some new drama. Even though Herschel was always trying to get me to understand the genius of David Slavitt and other New Formalists, he had a healthy respect for Allen Ginsberg. When Ginsberg read at the Painted Bride Arts Center one of the people who clapped the loudest was Herschel. Ginsberg did a brilliant reading of Sunflower Sutra, and it was so good that I have always hoped it was taped. Anyway, I remember Herschel telling Ginsberg how we need more brave poets like him, something like that, and Ginsberg gave him the Buddhist prayer hands and nod and smile. Herschel was a cranky, fierce old guy, even back in 1984 when I was just 18 he was old and fierce. While he was intolerant of poetry he didn't like, I admire that he always let you know what he liked and didn't like. You never had to second guess Herschel. He had no time for games because he took his poetry seriously. And if you took it seriously as well, even if you didn't agree with him, he enjoyed the opportunity to tell you how wrong you were. In his own way I think that he valued those who valued poetry, no matter what kind of poetry. I'll think of him on Chestnut Street. Rest in peace, CAConrad http://ThanksgivingDayFast.blogspot.com http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 03:12:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Because Because Because Gawd Damn it - and I am Cumming In-Reply-To: <452281.33901.qm@web52409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great stuff at (and I am being very subjective and extremely impatient): http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirtyone/jorgensen.html (sneak peak at this great issue) http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2007/06/alexander-jorgensen-two-angels-picking.html And also very loving!! AGJ -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 06:25:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Book, E-Book, Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, My first book, "Opera Bufa", has been released by Otoliths, a small press based in Australia. You can have a look at it, and purchase it if you wish, at http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210. My second book, an E-Book, "Beams", has been released by Blazevox Press. You can read it, and download it if you wish, at http://www.blazrvox.org/ebk-af.pdf. I am writing a third book, its called "When You Bit...", and you can have a sneak peak at some of the poems here: http://www.skicka.blogspot.com. Alright, Love on yer!!!! Ad --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 07:43:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Fwd: Call for work --- the issue 12 of listenlight In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline L I S T E N L I G H T ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jesse Crockett Date: Oct 6, 2007 6:59 AM Subject: Fwd: Call for work --- the issue 12 of listenlight To: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu Listenlight Poetry :: connecting interestingness materially since 2006. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jesse Crockett < jesse@listenlight.net> Date: Oct 5, 2007 7:55 PM Subject: Call for work --- the issue 12 of listenlight To: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu The upcoming issue 12 at listenlight.net may surprise you. She takes her first step towards the Web 2.0 environment. As the gurus at 37signals say, "We do less than our competition --- intentionally." Can 50,000 readers a day be wrong? Ideally, I would like to read works submitted now & over the weekend, select a few rather finished ones, and then release the page early in the week. Best regards, Jesse Crockett Editor, Listenlight Poetry Journal ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:20:58 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Alain Soubbotnik Subject: Re: Book, E-Book, Book In-Reply-To: <494165.19180.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Couldn't get to "Beams", Ad. The URL seems to be wrong... Could you check i= t up? Thanks Michael Michael A. Soubbotnik Universit=E9 Paris-Est (Marne-la-Vall=E9e) UFR LACT (Lettres Arts Communication et Technologies) LISAA EA4120 5 bd Descartes, 77454 Marne la Vall=E9e Cedex 2, France > De=A0: Adam Fieled > R=E9pondre =E0=A0: UB Poetics discussion group > Date=A0: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 06:25:19 -0700 > =C0=A0: "POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU" > Objet=A0: Book, E-Book, Book >=20 > Hello All, =20 > My first book, "Opera Bufa", has been released by Otoliths, a small > press based in Australia. You can have a look at it, and purchase it if y= ou > wish, at http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210. > My second book, an E-Book, "Beams", has been released by Blazevox Pr= ess. > You can read it, and download it if you wish, at > http://www.blazrvox.org/ebk-af.pdf. > I am writing a third book, its called "When You Bit...", and you can= have > a sneak peak at some of the poems here: http://www.skicka.blogspot.com. > =20 > Alright, Love on yer!!!! > Ad > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 07:42:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Blazevox E-Book Correction In-Reply-To: <494165.19180.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The correct address for my Blazevox e-book: http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-af.pdf Oops!!!! Ad Adam Fieled wrote: Hello All, My first book, "Opera Bufa", has been released by Otoliths, a small press based in Australia. You can have a look at it, and purchase it if you wish, at http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210. My second book, an E-Book, "Beams", has been released by Blazevox Press. You can read it, and download it if you wish, at http://www.blazrvox.org/ebk-af.pdf. I am writing a third book, its called "When You Bit...", and you can have a sneak peak at some of the poems here: http://www.skicka.blogspot.com. Alright, Love on yer!!!! Ad --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 11:02:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since several mention Plath and her mirror poem, what about one of her more celebrated (and arguably much better) poems at the end of Ariel (not her ordering but the one most people know)..."Words." The entire poem is based around echoes (echoes viewed as fate mostly)...it begins "Axes/after whose stroke the wood rings,/And the echoes!" And these words are the sort one never forgets: "Words dry and riderless / The indefatigable hoof-taps." Mirrors abound in this collection...the two poems preceding this one "Kindness" and "Contusion" most feature mirrors prominently, as do many other poems..... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 10:51:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Listenlight Unleashed -- Version 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In the spirit of whom she means to become, Listenlight 12 is released: listenlight.net --- Please note, the page loads a 250KB image for the content, requires a full Ajax viewport, about 1000x800 pixels of real estate, maybe a good browser (Firefox, Safari, Opera), and probably a post-modern CPU (1400MHz+) So, if you like it, there's room for three more works, you see. Round 'em up, cowpokes. Oh, & please add my Facebook app: GravityWay. Thanks. Cheers -- Your happy editor --- Jesse Crockett Listenlight.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 09:26:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: last reminder: Rothenberg Meltzer reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed LAST REMINDER: POETRY AT THE HISTORIC Z MANSION: DAVID MELTZER & MICHAEL ROTHENBERG presented by CHAX PRESS, with help from POG MONDAY, OCTOBER 8, 7:00pm 288 N. Church Ave. in downtown Tucson $5 at the door, $3 for students (we don't turn anyone away) Contact: Chax Press: 520-620-1626 In the last several years, CHAX PRESS and/or POG have established a Tucson ground-breaking series of readings by such writers as Robert Creeley, Robin Blaser, Joanne Kyger, Alice Notley, Bernadette Mayer, and more, writers who were sparkplugs in the poetic revolution of the 1950s and 1960s that has changed the landscape of American poetry from one of "tradition" to one of "energy," from an East Coast-centered poetics of Quietude to a global practice of visionary poetry. Within that seachange, David Meltzer is a must-see poet we are fortunate to bring to Tucson. All the better that he is accompanied by Michael Rothenberg, an outstanding poet who has also edited the collected poems of several of those writers who entered our poetic history from 1950 to 1965. My friends, this is one not to be missed. Also look ahead to another poet who is a part of this great American wave, David Gitin, together with Frank Parker, presented by POG on October 27 at 7pm at Stone Ave. Gallery, 2007 N. Stone. Other upcoming Chax or POG and related events include Oct. 9, Cushing Street Poetry, 198 W. Cushing St., 8pm: Jefferson Carter & John Spaulding Oct. 11, MOCA, 6pm, 174 E. Toole in downtown Tucson, poetry/poetics lecture: "Away We Shall Float: Where Poems Take Us." MOCA Lit is pleased to host award-wining poet and founder of Chax Press Charles Alexander as he shares the pleasure of poetry as writer and reader. Alexander will discuss his work vis a vis Hugo Ball and bpNichol under the theme of poetry as the language of excess. Oct. 14, noon to 5pm, UA Poetry Center Housewarming Festival. Reading with music & more, at Poetry Center new location, 1508 E. Helen St. Poets include Brenda Hillman, Charles Alexander, Richard Shelton, Jane Miller, Robert Hass, Steve Orlen, Alberto Rios, Alison Deming, & more. Chax Press & POG events are made possible in part by contributions from the Tucson Pima Arts Council and the Arizona Commission on the Arts, with funding from the State of Arizona and the National Endowment for the Arts. charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then Chax Press 520-620-1626 (studio) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com chax.org 650 E. 9th St. Tucson, AZ 85705 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 09:13:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Meredith Walters reading at Sunny's in Red Hook, Brooklyn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed forwarding from a friend. Come here Meredith Walters, winner of the 2006 Ahinga Prize for Poetry! Marty Robbins, Napoleon, and Li Po walk into a bar... > ...in spirit anyway. Come hear my poems about these > famous gents and plenty of other folks next Sunday and > Monday when I'll read from my brand spankin new book > of poems "All You have to do is Ask". > > I'll read at Sunny's in Red Hook on Sunday the 7th at > 3 in the afternoon ($3 suggested donation). On Monday > the 8th, I'll be at Cornelia St. Cafe in Manhattan > ($7, which gets you a "free" drink). > > Email or Call me with your questions, concerns and > comments: 718-690-1281 > > To Sunny's in Red Hook, Brooklyn: > > B61 Bus to Van Brunt St. & Beard St. Second to last > stop, right where the Bus turns onto Beard St. from > Van Brunt. Walk 1 block, opposite direction of bus, to > Conover St.?Turn Left, walk half a Block to Sunny's > > The B61 may be caught from the A,C or F at Jay St. or > from the M or R (N late night) at Lawrence St., 1 > Block with traffic on Willoughby St. to Jay St. or > from the 2, 3, 4, or 5 at Boro Hall walk 4 or 6 blocks > with traffic on Court St. to Atlantic Ave. > > B77 Bus to End of Line. Walk 2 blocks on Conover St. > in same direction as the Bus to Sunny's. The B77 may > caught from the F or G at Smith & 9th St. or from the > R, or M (N late night) at 4th Ave. or on 9th St. from > 5th Ave. on down or on Court St. at 9th St. > > MTA NYCT Bus Schedules & Maps can be found > at:?http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/bus/bklnsch.htm > > To Cornelia Street > > A, C, E, B, D, F & V TRAINS > 0. Get on the south end of the train. > 0. Take the train to the West 4th Street stop. > 0. Exit at West 3rd Street. > 0. Walk one block north to 4th Street. > 0. Make an acute left onto Cornelia Street. > > 1 & 9 TRAINS > 0. Take the train to the Sheridan Square stop. > 0. Walk 21/2 blocks east on West 4th Street. > Make a right onto Cornelia Street. > > Hope to see you there charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then Chax Press 520-620-1626 (studio) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com chax.org 650 E. 9th St. Tucson, AZ 85705 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 09:10:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Epistolary Forms -//query re Maitre Francois Villon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Steve: Je suis Francoys dont il me poise Ne de Paris empres Pontoise Et de la corde d'une toise Scaura mon col que mon cul poise. Galway Kinnel translates this as: I am Francois which is my cross Born in Paris near Pontoise From a fathom of rope my neck Will learn the weight of my ass Yes, the short quatrain was written by Villon while awaiting hanging--his third such occaision, having miraculously been at last moment twice before been pardoned and not hung as sentenced-- though he was as was the custom tortured and imprisoned for some time--on all occaisions-- (Many of the tortures then employed not so different from the ones used today at Gitmo and around the "civilized" world--) Villon was awaiting death in the worst cells of the Chatelet prison when he composed the quatrain and following that oneof his greatest ballads, "Freres humains, qui apres nous vivez . . " sometimes called "The Ballad of the Hanged"-- The document for the commutation of his sentence to ten yearse xile from the city of Paris still exists, though even with it it is not clear why this was done. There is some speculation that one of the three judges who sat on his appeal, Henri Thiboust, President of Parliament having been a friend of the man who was Villon's guardian and a fellow canon, (Guillaume de Villon) interceded and had the sentence commuted. Villon was given three days to get ready, then escorted to the gates of Paris--and never heard of again. As he himself had pointed out in some lines already, he was 33, the same age as Christ when He was crucified. The little quatrain has the characteristic paradoxical Villonesque ironic, gallows humor and at the same time a deep sense of Faith and a kind of honesty and "sincerity". A lot of his poems are listings of such paradoxes, how things that are the opposite are also very much the same. It's a kind of "leveling" vision which can both be devastatingly annihilating of all social institutions and shams, and at the same time a vision of spiritual liberation out of the worst of circumstances, situations, places, events and people. This kind of doubled vision makes for the humor in Villon's works--the mocking laugh of the skull face in the face of plagues, wars, famines, poverty and riches, prostitutes and Queens, beggars and Kings, theives and educated persons. Since Villon was both a well educated person and a theif, a killer of a Priest (got off on self-defense) and most likely a pimp, he and his work embody the paradoxes he creates with. Villon was born the same year Ste Jeanne d'Arc was burned at the stake, at the end of the Hundred Years War which had destroyed almost all of about half of present day France. There was a period of vicious winters in which wolves roamed the streets of Paris, especially at night, killing and eating humans. Disease was rampant, horrific poverty, and an underground network of thieves employing the "Jargon" often found in Villon's poetry were everywhere. It was an extremely brutal time period, and also one of a lot of laughter, pranks, festivals and festivities, feasts of all sorts. The period of the "Danse Macabre." Villon and a bit later Rabelais used the language of the streets mixed with theological terms --and much more, in Rabelais, being a doctor, of many other terminologies, which he outrageously satirizes. Villon's poetry in his lifetime and after, before being collected and published, was memorized and reciited and sung in streets, drinking holes, whore houses, the university all over Paris. Two great books on Villon are Francois Villon by D. B. Wyndham Lewis, which includes a lot of documents--and Danse Macabre: Francois Villon Poetry and Murder in Medieval France . Villon is one of my all time favorite poets by far and have done various art works etc in homage to him. On 10/5/07, steve russell wrote: > Is it true that Villon said "Now my neck shall feel the weight of my ass"= before he was about to be hung, but had his execution... > > David Chirot wrote: Excellent suggestions!--and= don't forget basically the entire works of > Francois Villon-- > the ballads and especially those long "letters to," those > masterpieces of Gallows Humor the Legacy and The Testament! > > besides which all others do but pale . . . > > On 10/5/07, Alexander Dickow wrote: > > Here are some wonderful epistolary or related > > things.... > > > > Guillaume Apollinaire's Poemes a Lou (all from private > > correspondance, as is much of the rest of his work) > > Max Jacob's correspondance > > The ballad form -- see Christine de Pizan especially, > > but also Charles d'Orleans and many others where the > > epistolary element is important(the "envoi" is a trace > > of epistolary origins, real or fictional) > > Clement Marot > > > > Amicalement, > > Alex > > > > > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > > > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin > > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:14:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: On Simic on Creeley Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Poetics List --- I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of Creeley's Collecteds: http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ JK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:17:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: Simic on Creeley Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Here's the full review, by the way, cut & pasted --- I apologize for =20 whatever happens to the formatting! + + + + The Cat Went Out for Good By Charles Simic The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1945=961975 by Robert Creeley University of California Press, 671 pp., $24.95 (paper) The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1975=962005 by Robert Creeley University of California Press, 662 pp., $49.95 I loved Herrick, I loved the scale and deftness of his sounds. I =20 loved, what little I knew of Campion.... I loved the so-called =20 Jacobeans, I mean, really a kind of hip mournfulness I really thought =20= was great.[1] What is the explanation for the large number of volumes of collected =20 poems appearing in the last few years? Publishers are bringing out =20 books of breathtaking ambition, each one containing hundreds of poems =20= by a single poet, as if there was a huge, untapped market for every =20 poem ever written by every dead and living American poet. In place of =20= pocket-sized volumes or lean collections of selected poems one can =20 comfortably read to oneself on a park bench or to a lover in bed, one =20= is confronted by a tome that requires for its perusal a sturdy table. There's also the challenge of sheer quantity. Unless one is an inmate =20= serving a life sentence in a state penitentiary, a book of a thousand =20= poems is nearly impossible to read, since the concentration and =20 enthusiasm such an undertaking requires can only infrequently be =20 summoned. More to the point, there are not many poets, even among our =20= best ones, who are likely to have more than eighty pages worth =20 reading. Of course, there are exceptions. Whitman, Dickinson, Frost, =20 and Stevens tend to be engrossing even when they are not at their =20 best, though that claim is debatable. With all that in mind, the =20 publication of any poet's collected poems is bound to evoke both =20 curiosity and dread, even a poet one has previously held in high regard. There was a time when Robert Creeley was a cult figure, a poet nearly =20= as famous as Allen Ginsberg and Robert Lowell. His 1962 book For Love =20= was much admired. The old master himself, William Carlos Williams, =20 said that Creeley had the subtlest feeling for the measure that he =20 had encountered anywhere except in the verses of Ezra Pound, whom he =20 could not equal. His poems seemed both adventurous and old-fashioned. =20= They had a colloquial ease and the fragmented look of modern poetry, =20 but they also contained rhymes, archaic words, and a rhetoric that =20 often had as much in common with Williams and Pound as with Herrick =20 and Campion. They were almost all about love, a subject of =20 considerable interest to a vast number of human beings that for some =20 curious reason is absent from the work of many of our poets today, =20 who, unlike poets in other cultures, generally stay away from any =20 overt expression of erotic feelings, as if love and sex were of =20 little concern to them. Creeley not only wrote keenly about love, he was also a man with =20 interesting ideas about literature. A member of the little-understood =20= but already fabled circle of poets that included Charles Olson, =20 Robert Duncan, Denise Levertov, Paul Blackburn, and Ed Dorn, he came =20 across as both a poet and an intellectual. "He seemed to have his =20 sights on and be in touch with every aspect of what was new and vital =20= going on then," Michael Rumaker remembered.[2] A slight, stooped =20 figure with an eye patch and shy manners, he read his poems in a low, =20= barely audible voice with a seriousness and intensity that was both =20 mystifying and attractive. Of course, everyone who saw him read wondered what happened to the =20 eye. In an unpublished autobiographical note written in 1966, he =20 gives a brief mention of the accident: I was raised in Massachusetts for the most part, having been born in =20 Arlington, May 21, 1926, son of a physician who died when I was four. =20= That and the loss of my left eye when I was a little younger mark for =20= me two conditions I have unequivocally as content, but which I have =20 neither much bitterness about nor other specific feeling. I did miss =20 my father certainly. With him went not only the particular warmth he =20 might have felt for me, but also the whole situation of our life as =20 we had apparently known it.[3] The father's death impoverished the family. They moved to a small =20 farm in West Acton and his mother got a job as a public health nurse =20 to support Robert and his older sister. He said that kids like him in =20= West Acton went hunting and did not go out for sports. "They shot =20 deer during the winter to eat and they counted each bullet. Wasting a =20= single bullet was a crime."[4] Creeley eventually received a =20 scholarship and attended the Holderness School in Plymouth, New =20 Hampshire, where he later claimed he received the most relevant part =20 of his education. His time at Harvard was shorter and much less =20 happy. He made a few friends, met his first wife there, but ended up =20 being suspended for stealing a door from Lowell House. He joined the =20 American Field Service in 1944 and became an ambulance driver in =20 Burma and India. After the war ended, Creeley returned to Cambridge, =20 where his mother and sister were then living, and he was reinstated =20 at Harvard. He became involved in literary activities at the =20 university, had his first poem published, and married an old school =20 friend in the spring of 1946. They relocated to Truro on Cape Cod, =20 then he dropped out of Harvard in his final semester, wearied by the =20 long commute and convinced that the courses he was taking were of no =20 use to him. Next, his wife bought a farm near Littleton, New Hampshire, where =20 they bred pigeons and chickens which they showed in poultry =20 exhibitions around New England. In August 1950, he began writing =20 letters to Charles Olson, who was then living in Washington, D.C. =20 Once their correspondence was collected, the one thousand letters =20 covering the years from 1950 to 1952 ran into nine volumes. Without =20 meeting face to face, they wrote to each other daily, Creeley often =20 twice a day. He thought of himself at the time as a short story writer=20= =97he was already publishing stories in leading literary journals=97and =20= an aspiring man of letters who would model himself on Pound and =20 Williams, with whom he was also corresponding. Olson, an ex=96letter carrier, ex-fisherman, ex=96Democratic Party =20 official, and an employee of the Federal Office of War Information, =20 had already written his book on Melville and some poems, and was =20 working on his soon-to-be-famous essay "Projective Verse," which was =20 shortly to appear in the magazine Poetry New York. In it, he argued =20 for "open form poetry" in which traditional ideas of form would be =20 replaced by poems in which form would depend on the content. In other =20= words, the right form for a poem trying to describe a red wheelbarrow =20= next to a couple of white chickens, or one about staring into a =20 bathroom mirror at midnight, is to be found in the experience itself =20 and is not to be imposed mechanically from outside. So understood, =20 form is not what Shakespeare and Keats thought it was, but the =20 property of the content and the language of every experience. Creeley and Olson discussed these matters in their letters, exchanged =20= poems, recommended books to each other, complained about the =20 ignorance and stupidity of magazine editors, and raised each other's =20 spirits. Not that they had much in common. Like Pound, Olson saw the =20 role of a poet as a teacher, someone who makes new ideas available to =20= his readers. Creeley thought that what defines our poetry is the =20 prototypical American proclivity since Whitman and Dickinson for =20 speaking in the name of an extraordinary single self, which =20 nevertheless feels itself to be representative. Olson became the rector of Black Mountain College, a small =20 experimental college in North Carolina founded in 1933 that had =20 attracted, both as teachers and students, a great many artists, =20 writers, and musicians, such as Franz Kline, John Cage, Merce =20 Cunningham, Willem de Kooning, and Paul Goodman. He soon invited =20 Creeley to edit a magazine that he hoped would attract attention to =20 the college, which had at that point barely two dozen students left. =20 Creeley accepted. The magazine was called The Black Mountain Review =20 and was almost impossible to get hold of except in a few little =20 bookstores around the country. Still, it circulated among poets and =20 was exciting to read since it had poems and essays by Olson, Duncan, =20 Levertov, and Creeley, whose ideas and work were far more intriguing =20 than what one usually encountered in university quarterlies. Not =20 until 1962, when Scribner brought out Creeley's For Love: Poems 1950=96=20= 1960, was it possible to have some sense of what his poetry was like =20 unless one happened to come across one of his small-press books =20 published in Spain or in North Carolina. Among the 135 mostly very =20 short poems in that volume, this one is his most famous and most =20 anthologized: I KNOW A MAN As I sd to my friend, because I am always talking,=97John, I sd, which was not his name, the darkness sur- rounds us, what can we do against it, or else, shall we & why not, buy a goddamn big car, drive, he sd, for christ's sake, look out where yr going. For such a little poem, "I Know a Man" has had a vast number of =20 interpretations, some of them downright peculiar. My favorite one =20 contends that the speaker of the poem is Jesus Christ and the "John" =20 is John the Baptist. Creeley allowed that there's something Puritan =20 about the poem, in a sense of "Cool it!" "You're becoming =20 excessive...."[5] His letters to Olson often mention his desire to =20 get away from Littleton where he felt himself to be, as he said in =20 his story "The Island," "the writer on perpetual vacation on his =20 wife's money."[6] In one of the letters he describes two young men =20 stopping to ask for directions. After they leave, he fantasizes how =20 nice it would be to have a Lincoln Continental and to go cruising at =20 sixty or seventy miles per hour down some long stretch of highway =20 with a cool bottle of wine and just yourself for company. As in a =20 number of other Creeley poems, the conflict here is between two sides =20= of the self, one of which wants to escape some routine by imagining =20 another kind of life and the practical other who reminds the dreamer =20 that there are dire consequences for not paying attention to matters =20 at hand. The poem sounds like a bit of overheard conversation carefully =20 transcribed. Each line break and the slight pause it necessitates =20 indicate the speed at which the poem is to be read. The function of =20 such a line is to weight the various things we are being told and to =20 convey the tone of voice. Prosody for Creeley was the method of =20 controlling the reader's temporal and auditory experience of the =20 poem. Form was not an abstract concept. It was up to the poet to =20 recognize that some bit of speech is already a poem that requires as =20 little tampering as possible. In his literary essays, one of his main =20= interests is the study of poetic consciousness and the scrutiny of =20 the ways in which language is used. Writing for him was as much about =20= that process as it was about any given subject. Creeley's love poems from this period have the same quality of =20 extreme self-consciousness and introspection. Their speaker seeks to =20 understand love, because, he claims, all that he knows comes from =20 what it has taught him. Creeley is not an erotic poet. His women are =20 rarely physically present in the poems. He has more in common with =20 poets of courtly love than with Ovid or Catullus, who wrote =20 explicitly about the naked body. "The glorious lady of my mind," as =20 Dante calls Beatrice in La Vita Nuova, is also Creeley's worry. And =20 yet that ethereal vision is in daily conflict with the demands of =20 sharing the same bed and living under the same roof with a real =20 woman, who may or may not care for him, a relationship that requires =20 constant corroboration with all the accompanying risks: THE BUSINESS To be in love is like going out- side to see what kind of day it is. Do not mistake me. If you love her how prove she loves also, except that it occurs, a remote chance on which you stake yourself? But barter for the Indian was a means of sustenance. There are records. Many years ago, writing about Creeley's early poems, Cid Corman =20 observed that they are never quite lighthearted, that they are mostly =20= about taking oneself to task for some highly charged and invariably =20 screwed-up relationship. They are addressed to a particular woman, =20 often in a form of apology, and deal with his attempt to explain =20 himself and hopefully be forgiven. This is love poetry of constant =20 self-doubt, of guilty feelings, both real and imaginary, that, at =20 least in this one poem, make for a nice bit of domestic comedy as the =20= husband snoring away next to his wife dreams of another woman: THE WHIP I spent a night turning in bed, my love was a feather, a flat sleeping thing. She was very white and quiet, and above us on the roof, there was another woman I also loved, had addressed myself to in a fit she returned. That encompasses it. But now I was lonely, I yelled, but what is that? Ugh, she said, beside me, she put her hand on my back, for which act I think to say this wrongly. No one frets more about the proper use of words than poets and =20 lovers. Their intention is to eroticize language, make each word have =20= the effect of a glance or a touch. They speak in hope that an =20 overworked phrase like "I love you," which countless millions have =20 said millions of times and continue to say every day, each one in his =20= or her tone of voice, and never twice in the same way, will ring true =20= for this particular person, in this particular moment, and will =20 convey all of its overt and latent meanings and be reciprocated in =20 some fashion: THE LANGUAGE Locate I love you some- where in teeth and eyes, bite it but take care not to hurt, you want so much so little. Words say everything. I love you again, then what is emptiness for. To fill, fill. I heard words and words full of holes aching. Speech is a mouth. Words are holes waiting to be filled by our need. They bring into =20 being something out of nothing. The lover and the poet have that in =20 common. They know that no words ever do justice to what they are =20 feeling=97even as they continue to use them. The mind awake to its =20 inability to say what it is=97 this is the subject of many of Creeley's =20= poems. "I see no progress in time or any other such situation. So it =20 is that what I feel, in the world, is the one thing I know myself to =20 be, for that instant. I will never know myself otherwise," he writes. =20= What he ends up espousing is a form of solipsism which holds that the =20= primary reality for the self is the mind and its sole truth is the =20 immediate and unshared experience that occurs there. Even when he =20 writes of love, he says less of the object of his affection and far =20 more of his own perceptions and emotions. His philosophical problem =20 may be described this way: If my mind is all I can be sure of, how =20 will I ever be able to get to know you, my love? By broad agreement, For Love is Creeley's best book. There are at =20 least two dozen first-rate poems and the rest are almost all of very =20 high quality. Words (1967), from which the poem about language I just =20= quoted comes, is an uneven book, although it has several powerful =20 poems like the one (called "Something") about a man watching a woman =20 in a rented room take a pee in a sink after they have made love. Such =20= specifics are rare in his work. Ordinarily, his lovers, friends, and =20 the places he travels to are not shown in any detail. Poetry denies =20 its end in any descriptive act, Creeley has insisted, since it leaves =20= the attention outside the poem. That is why one finds very few =20 metaphors and almost no similes in his poetry. The search for what =20 this or that is "like" necessitates that one divide one's attention, =20 absent oneself for a moment in the imagination, and that won't do: Poetry seems to be written momently=97that is, it occupies a moment of =20= time.... I seem to be given to work in some intense moment of =20 whatever possibility, and if I manage to gain the articula-tion =20 necessary in that moment, then happily there is the poem.[7] If this is true=97and it is not true for most poets=97all we can expect =20= from Creeley's poetry will be jottings, words and phrases about his =20 state of mind which will rely on his knack for colloquial speech to =20 conceal the paucity of content. Creeley's next book, Pieces (1969), =20 is all about such poetry. Having convinced himself that the only =20 authentic act for a poet is to report what is in his mind at the time =20= of writing, Creeley eschews even the beginnings and endings of poems, =20= since they now seem to him an arbitrary bracketing of what Jack =20 Kerouac called "an undisturbed flow of the mind." This is what that =20 looks like: A STEP Things come and go. Then let them. HAVINGTO=97 what do I think to say now. Nothing but comes and goes in a moment. * Cup. Bowl. Saucer. Full. * The way into the form, the way out of the room=97 The door, the hat, the chair, the fact... The sequence has seven more parts, but even this much ought to be =20 enough to show the slightness of such poetry. More promising are the =20 poems Creeley wrote about numbers zero to nine for the painter Robert =20= Indiana. Here's a section about the number "Seven": I was born at seven in the morning and my father had a monument of stone, a pillar, put at the entrance of the hospital, of which he was head. There are a few good poems in his earlier manner in Pieces, but the =20 rest of the book doesn't amount to much. Creeley confused ideas about =20= poetry with poetry itself. Some reviewers tried their best to indulge =20= him. His old friend Denise Levertov said that Pieces is a romantic =20 book, by a poet whose previous work had often been impressively =20 classic. Because of its energy, candor, mystery, and try-anything =20 courage, she found the new poems exciting. Others were less generous. =20= In The New Republic, Reed Whittemore found the whole project =20 didactic. Creeley had ceased to be a lyric poet and become a teacher-=20 preacher type giving us classroom demonstrations of how poetry, =20 written according to a particular theory of poetry, works. In the introduction to a volume of his earliest and previously =20 uncollected poems, The Charm (1967), Creeley offers his own =20 explanation of what he was up to. I quote next to the last paragraph: One time in conversation with Allen Ginsberg late at night, when we =20 were both in Vancouver in 1963, he very generously said to me, you =20 don't have to worry so much about writing a "bad" poem. You can =20 afford to now. I don't know that my nature will ever allow me that =20 understanding, which has not finally to do with some pompous self-=20 regard=97but rather with the fact that we are human beings and do live =20= in the variability of that order. We don't know all we think we do, =20 nor would it even be very interesting if we did. Another friend, =20 Robert Duncan, has always insisted, with high intelligence, I think, =20 that poetry is not some ultimate preserve for the most rarified and =20 articulate of human utterances, but has a place for all speech and =20 all occasions thereof. The most charitable interpretation of these two awful pieces of =20 advice is that Ginsberg was pulling his leg and Duncan meant =20 something else. American poetry is full of daybooks, poets who report =20= everything they see and think and who keep doing the same thing for =20 years, but they usually pay better attention to what goes on around =20 them than he does, filling their poems with nicely observed details =20 and memorable stories. Not Creeley. He doesn't gossip, doesn't =20 confess secrets, doesn't have a rich imaginative life, doesn't write =20 about nature or cities, and has nothing to say about history. His =20 kind of poem, he informs us in his Paris Review interview, is done in =20= one sitting, literally in the time it takes to type it or otherwise =20 write it, usually without any process of revision. The aesthetic =20 theory=97and there is always a theory behind such reductive views=97may =20= sound persuasive, but it was foolish on Creeley's part to believe =20 that it could ever validate a poem. If poetics were like cooking and =20 one could write down a recipe for all of one's future poems, that =20 would be true. However, great cooks rarely bother to consult cookbooks. This may sound harsh, but reading the hundreds of poems that Creeley =20 wrote after Pieces, I could not come to any other conclusion. The =20 second volume, The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1975=962005, =20 which has poems written just before he died in 2005, is especially =20 hard going. The better poems are rare and come after many pages of =20 banal musings on aging, decline of his faculties, and death, in a =20 language that is flat and thoroughly predictable. This surprised me. =20 I knew Creeley for over forty years and enjoyed his talk, which was =20 always full of interesting stories and ideas, and now reading his =20 interviews feel the same way, but there is little evidence of that =20 quality of mind in his work after 1975, with poem after poem =20 consisting either of superficial remarks or descriptions so general =20 that they are instantly forgettable: Sitting at table=97 good talk with good people. On rare occasions, when he comes out of himself and remembers William =20= Carlos Williams's injunction "no ideas but in things," to actually =20 look closely at the world around him, he is a far better poet: FIRST RAIN These retroactive small instances of feeling reach out for a common ground in the wet first rain of a faded winter. Along the grey iced sidewalk revealed piles of dogshit, papers, bits of old clothing, are the human pledges, call them, "We are here and have been all the time." I walk quickly. The wind drives the rain, drenching my coat, pants, blurs my glasses, as I pass. BUFFALO EVENING Steady, the evening fades up the street into sunset over the lake. Winter sits quiet here, snow piled by the road, the walks stamped down or shoveled. The kids in the time before dinner are playing, sliding on the old ice. The dogs are out, walking, and it's soon inside again, with the light gone. Time to eat, to think of it all. Then, just as it seems that "the cat went out for good," in the last =20 years of his life Creeley recovers some of his old touch. Among the =20 many so-so poems about travel, family, deaths of friends, remorse of =20 conscience, homages to other poets, and diary-like entries about =20 miscellaneous items, one finds memorable fragments and a few truly =20 fine poems, like the delightful eight-part sequence called "The Dogs =20 of Auckland," written in long lines and full of comic touches and =20 sharply observed details. Undoubtedly, there is a conflict in =20 Creeley's later work. He continued to believe that some bit of =20 language that came out of the blue could be a poem, while in fact the =20= more conventional lyrics and longer narrative poems that required =20 additional tinkering served him better. It's a pity that he felt the =20 need to remain faithful to ideas about composition long after it =20 became clear that they not only were limiting him but were a dead =20 end. Given the circumstances, a small volume of his selected (and =20 mostly early) poems would have been preferable to the first volumes =20 of collected poems. It would recall to us what a wild, pure, and =20 original voice he once had and continues to have for his devoted =20 readers: AFTER LORCA The church is a business, and the rich are the business men. When they pull on the bells, the poor come piling in and when a poor man dies, he has a wooden cross, and they rush through the ceremony. But when a rich man dies, they drag out the Sacrament and a golden Cross, and go doucement, doucement to the cemetery. And the poor love it and think it's crazy. Notes [1] Robert Creeley in conversation with Alan Riach, recorded at the =20 University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand, July 26, 1995, =20 available at wings.buffalo .edu/epc/authors/creeley/interview.html. [2] Robert Creeley's Life and Work: A Sense of Increment, edited by =20 John Wilson (University of Michigan Press, 1987), p. 54. [3] Quoted in Cynthia Dubin Edelberg, "Creeley's Early Life and =20 Career," Modern American Poetry, available at www.english.uiuc.edu/=20 maps/poets/a_f/ creeley/life.htm. [4] Mark Jay Mirsky, Creeley (Pressed Wafer, 2007), p. 23. [5] Robert Creeley in conversation with Alan Riach, p. 2. [6] The Collected Prose of Robert Creeley (University of California =20 Press, 1988), p. 107. [7] Interview with Linda Wagner in Poetics of the New American =20 Poetry, edited by Donald Allen and Warren Tallman (Grove, 1973), p. 281. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 11:59:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From today's Washington Post, a quote from a visit to Lyn Cheney, new author of "Blue Skies, No Fences: A Memoir of Childhood and Family," (through 1958): ...Now, she is tucked into a favorite chair in the sunroom at the vice president's residence, a home she will inhabit for 15 more months. The room -- which she redecorated, like much of the residence, to remind her of Wyoming -- is done in neutral tones, with a framed map of the Cheneys' home state on the wall and a sculpture of an elk on a table. (In the adjacent library, there is a buffalo sculpture under a table; there is also an entire shelf of fishing books, including two intimidatingly large tomes titled "Trout, Volume I" and "Trout, Volume II.")... Not to be uppity or easy, but it does not look like modernism, or post-modernism in either art or books has ever crossed the Vice-President's threshold of awareness! What's there appears pure 19th century. I would be surprised if there were not multi-point buck antlers over the fire place. The site would appear to be a rich point of departure for, at least, theater or an installation work in which the 21st century would be im/exploding about the edges (Photographs of Blackwater contractors blazing away in Baghda humvees, trophy Al-Queda captives being tortured in the basement, etc.), while Vice-President's wife continues to rhapsodize about the joys of dating in 1958 in her junior year in the Veep's convertible in downtown Caspar, Wyoming. To quote Marianne Moore in the Steeplejack: ...it is a privilege to see so much confusion... Tomorrow Iran? Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:01:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Re: Wanted/ Poem of echo &/or mirror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are all those Creeley poems called "Echo" (plenty in the second vol. of the Collected). Also a lovely Michael Palmer poem-set by that title; I can't remember which book it's from, but it's in the "In the American Tree" anthology. And Robin Blaser's early books ("Charms" and the first "Image-Nations," both in "The Holy Forest") have a lot of shattered mirrors). There's also a fine Jack Spicer poem from "After Lorca" (in the "Collected Books") that ends with a shattered mirror... I can't remember the title of that one. All of these may be too indirect for the purpose at hand... but they're awful good. cheers, Andy --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 06:38:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: With regards to Simic In-Reply-To: <221786.19869.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would argue that however a talented poet, he is not a great poet - and RC was. I find it particularly convenient for him to crisize a contemporary, and especially, I think, mercernary, so soon after his death. And, of course, they are competing for the same, valid space. RC was RC. He was a bastard, so many people have said. Maybe this is what it is about. He once verbally abused a student, during the train of a bender, for saying Eliot was more talented than WCW. Someone put that article on this list, that would be glorious sharing and genuine community. As ever, AGJ -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 09:13:25 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Sidewalk (anti-war) blog news, 10/6/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit October 6, 2007 Sidewalk (anti-war) blog news from Hawai`i Dear friends: --FREE SPEECH (the sign) lives, one week later! (Kalaheo H.S. Fence). --Inauguration of the “lost pet” (US Bill of Rights) handbill series. --Another sign posted near the Marine Corps Air Station, Kaneohe. --Soccer Saturday at the Ahuimanu District Park Fence. --More signs amid the rubble (Ahuimanu Road) Thanks for looking. Most recent signs are on the (second) album's second page. Please click to read their stories. Feel free to take photos and post them elsewhere. Credit to Sidewalk Blogger, not to me. Aloha, Susan Public link: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=12284&l=bfaa6&id=654553661 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:57:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The true world. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The true world. I wouldn't have been writing this or sitting here, the equivalent of your thought at this moment, perhaps decades ago, the screen is transparent, absent, ascii is natural crystal. If ascii is not natural crystal, then assembly language is natural crystal. If assembly language is not natural crystal, then machine language is natural crystal. I would say that in the true world every signifier is hard-wired, every sign is true. Every signifier is hard-wired, every signifier has hard-substrate, if not in the true world, then in the temporal. Every sign is true, how might a sign be false?, signs are true in the true world, there is no other world. Every world is virtual world, the screen reflects the virtual world if the screen is clear, reflective. Virtual worlds are screened in the true world, they are screened with true signs, there are signs in virtual worlds which are signs in true worlds, virtual worlds are true worlds. There are judgments in the true world, judges in the true world, there are splits and splinters, one true world parents another, and another and this is the way of true worlds, this splintering or netting, each successor or antecedent, descendent or ancestor, each simultaneous in the true world which is the world of true worlds parenting and simultaneous. I sit here and I am in the same world, true world, and you are in the same true world, and your world splits and my world splits, and we are together in the true world of parenting true worlds and simultaneous. We are always gathered together in the true world, we are gatherings in the true world, we are skein and membrane, warp of woof of the true world which is gatherings of gatherings of our gatherings and of true worlds. Yes, but, "La tautologie est certainement rigoureuse, mais certainement inapplicable et sterile. Dans sa pure forme, hors du contenu, la pensee cesse d'etre pensee." (H. Lefebvre, logique formelle, logique dialectique) Is there anything other than gatherings, of which tautologie is both kernel and restriction, category collapse, for example equivalence which shudders as such, "Now we are in the position of having an enormous body of mathematics, large parts of which are _secretly_ the decategorified residues of deeper truths, without knowing exactly which parts these are. For example, any equation involving natural numbers may be the decate- gorification of an isomorphism between finite sets." (John C. Baez, James Dolan, "From Finite Sets to Feynman Diagrams," in Engquist and Schmid, Mathematics Unlimited - 2001 and Beyond) For example perhaps tautology expands (beyond the realization that it _remains_ nothing but (constric- ted) symbols on a page. Natural crystal is already transient, if not now, when? One replies con- tinuously in the course, among the courses, of gatherings of true worlds. One might ask, why are there things, why are there things here, as if for a longer time, as if things were like higher languages, as if both were the true world, as if gatherings were sets or collocations of the other, always thinging? For this is the question, how logic appears, that is, how it makes appearance, how it appears to us. And one might reply, this is the result of potential wells, as if the real, the true world, were obdurate, which it is not. The fire next time is the plasma beforehand and the plasma after, it is the virtual particle and its gatherings in the true world. Every thing that is appearance, every symbol that appears within the pot- ential well of things that are gatherings, every hard-wiring is a masquer- ade. Every gathering is a party, every party is a gathering, parentings and parenteds, every symbolic formation becomes a letting go, releasing, every releasing a vanishing, every vanishing a gathering. The true world is a vanishing, the screen is a releasing, collapsed potential well, a gathering. All signs are true in the true world, all signs have vanished. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:22:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Sept./Oct. at Ana Verse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _http://annbogle.blogspot.com_ (http://annbogle.blogspot.com/) Entries "Vital Signs: Hysteria is calmer than you think" Gossip Reply to "a note on feminism" A note on feminism Invisible Jazz Dream in Snow Circle Dinner Pay-off (def.) Candor, or cited Catechism Linda (poem) Men's movement Getting it Webgoing notes Lesson 38 (found poem) Photos: Birdfeeders in Autumn Windowkill (Goldfinch, m.) Jack in the Pulpit Sargent Highbush Cranberry Grand i flora Hosta Walter Fox ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:04:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Eleven Eleven issue 4 and submission call for issue 5 In-Reply-To: <632629.38657.qm@web33605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Announcing the release of issue four of Eleven Eleven, edited by Ben Lerner and featuring the work of Aharon Shabtai (translated by Peter Cole), Cole Swensen, Renee Gladman, Rusty Morrison, Magdalena Zurawski, Jacqueline Risset (translated by Jennifer Moxley), Aaron Kunin, K. Silem Mohammad, David Shapiro, Edward Bartók-Baratta, Chris Abani, Michael Palmer, and a selection of five emerging Mexican poets edited and translated by Jen Hofer and Román Luján (Rodrigo Flores and His Homies, Alejandro Tarrab, José Manuel Velázquez, Karen Plata, and Rosalva García Coral). On sale now for $8, directly from CCA. Make checks out to California College of the Arts, Attn: Eleven Eleven. We are now reading for issue five. Send up to five poems or 7,000 words of prose, plus SASE. Deadline is January 31, 2008. Send checks and submissions to: Eleven Eleven California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, CA 94107 For more information, write to us at eleveneleven@cca.edu. est, Hugh Behm-Steinberg Faculty Editor Eleven Eleven --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:02:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Cordle Subject: a correction re: Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier October 5th, 2007 by alan In recent research I’ve been conducting, I came across the following post on the Poetics listserv out of Buffalo. It’s from David Baratier of Pavement Saw Press, from April of this year. It frustrates me to see someone so self-righteously denounce Foetry.com’s work, particularly in light of the fact that I did not write _one word_ of the paragraph he attributed to me. Another forum member, Monday Love, wrote it. Baratier was completely careless in this post. And no, I’m not against all contests either. And I’m pro Monday Love too. Thank you for allowing me to correct the record. Alan Cordle founder of Foetry.com ——————————– Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:35:21 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Agni needs a spine In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1The situation with foetry affects all of us. It is apparent from my interactions with foetry that Alan Cordle is against all contests, even an honest one. Foetry first went after me insinuating that I appeared in the Denver Quarterly because I had Bin Ramke as a judge. That statement sat on their site for many months even after the timeline was shown to them that proved that the accusation was false. I am not sure why we were brought onto their site except for an apparent need of Cordle to attack Ramke and anyone who used him as a judge. The passage below written by Cordle is yet another instance of his making things up without evidence: ————————- Let’s see. Please tell me if I got anything wrong. David Baratier’s letters and poems have appeared in the Denver Quarterly, editor Bin Ramke, professor, University of Denver. Baratier is editor of Pavement Saw Press, in Ohio, which gets money from Ohio taxpayers in order to establish, according to Pavement Saw Press’s mission statement, a “non-university affiliated press” which helps Ohio’s economy by attracting outside attention and publishing “works of national signifiance.” Dana Curtis, Ph.D. University of Denver, wins Pavement Saw Press Prize, picked by Ramke. Curtis is founder & editor-in-chief of Elixir Press, based in Denver. Jake Adam York, director of creative writing, University of Colorado at Denver, and Colorado Council on the Arts fellow, wins Elixir Press Prize. Sounds to me like university-affiliated Denver is the cat and the Ohio taxpayers are the cream. It looks like, so far at least, there’s a nice little Denver system in place here. Very nice. ———————————————- Ok, Back to my side again The above written by Cordle is a total fabrication. York and Curtis didn’t know each other in fact, at the time Dana was in Minneapolis, not Denver I did not know Bin except for asking him to judge the contest and I asked him because I called to find out if they were going to run a interview I did with Simon Perchik (which appeared as a feature in an early issue of Jacket) and while he was on the line I asked if he would be interested. I’ll just stop here. The whole thing is starting to bother me again. Our contest is blind judged, the manuscripts are stripped of the name and publication credits, if we can afford a judge, the judge is sent 25 manuscripts out of all recieved. If not I end up judging the batch I am sent back from the readers. If I am able to afford publishing two books (1000 run each) from the entries I do. Then we pay to mail everyone at least their entry fee worth of books we have published. I think we run one of the fairest contests there is, I challenged Cordle to come up with a place that did better. I am still waiting. Anyway, my experience is that we would have something false written about us with no evidence, and once that material appeared on the foetry website it became my job to “prove him wrong.” I should also mention that Levine is one of our authors. And that (for the record, as to avoid more wild speculation) his book won our contest before Tupelo was publishing. I also do not see why Levine being accused of a problem with the way he runs his press should affect the acceptance of his poems into journals. This is heading into an ugly direction, what is next? Will AGNI apologize about publishing poems if a poet is accused of running a red-light? Maybe AGNI should apologize for all of the poems they publish until they get a spine. Considering the student teacher problems with poetry awards and with contests who have chosen a winner beforehand, my amazement with Cordle is how inflated he is over the little he has revealed. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:15:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: On Simic In-Reply-To: <221786.19869.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not that I think RC was a bastard, or that many people do - to correct something - but have heard stories that many of us are already familiar with. "A very real life," eh? AJ -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:36:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Creeley crit In-Reply-To: <000501c807c0$67fd7c00$0201a8c0@owner> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the links. Much apologize that my contribution to discussion offers little (if anything). AJ -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 00:29:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not just about Creeley. I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a couple of days before I can get to it. Mark At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: >Poetics List --- > >I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of >Creeley's Collecteds: > >http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ > >JK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 00:25:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fluffy Singler Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually the line in Under My Thumb is "It's down to me . . . " American Woman is vile. I second that one. I never heard it, but there was a big splash on the internet about Alanis Morrissette's version of Humps which was supposedly quite hilarious and casts the song in a fairly different light. LW -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Burns [mailto:atelierjewelweed@GMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:08 AM Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? On 9/30/07, Marcus Bales wrote: > > Rolling Stones: Under My Thumb I always argue with that one though-- it does have one critical bit of lyric "Instead of me..." which implies that the speaker felt that he was under her thumb at one point. So I just see it as a song about very human power struggles. I also agree that Stand by Your Man is rife with irony. I have no problem with it. My vote would be for "American Woman"-- I really HATE that song. And could we pick the recent and very obvious "Humps"? Bleh. Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:41:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fluffy Singler Subject: Re: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mrs. Cheney has actually had many words to say about modernism and postmodernism. None of them good. None of it has probably literally crossed her threshold and into her house, but she is all too conscious of them and the way in which they have challenged and destroyed all that she holds dear--personally and politically. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Vincent [mailto:steph484@PACBELL.NET] Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic From today's Washington Post, a quote from a visit to Lyn Cheney, new author of "Blue Skies, No Fences: A Memoir of Childhood and Family," (through 1958): ...Now, she is tucked into a favorite chair in the sunroom at the vice president's residence, a home she will inhabit for 15 more months. The room -- which she redecorated, like much of the residence, to remind her of Wyoming -- is done in neutral tones, with a framed map of the Cheneys' home state on the wall and a sculpture of an elk on a table. (In the adjacent library, there is a buffalo sculpture under a table; there is also an entire shelf of fishing books, including two intimidatingly large tomes titled "Trout, Volume I" and "Trout, Volume II.")... Not to be uppity or easy, but it does not look like modernism, or post-modernism in either art or books has ever crossed the Vice-President's threshold of awareness! What's there appears pure 19th century. I would be surprised if there were not multi-point buck antlers over the fire place. The site would appear to be a rich point of departure for, at least, theater or an installation work in which the 21st century would be im/exploding about the edges (Photographs of Blackwater contractors blazing away in Baghda humvees, trophy Al-Queda captives being tortured in the basement, etc.), while Vice-President's wife continues to rhapsodize about the joys of dating in 1958 in her junior year in the Veep's convertible in downtown Caspar, Wyoming. To quote Marianne Moore in the Steeplejack: ...it is a privilege to see so much confusion... Tomorrow Iran? Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:02:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Foetry & Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier In-Reply-To: <63198.24.21.198.246.1191700931.squirrel@foetry.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alan Cordle--- David Baratier's post does not seem "completely careless" to me... If, indeed, you are not "Monday Love," then maybe David's post is =20 slightly careless for not making it clear that you're not this person =20= (if indeed you aren't) Also, why do you use the term "self-righteously denounce" to describe =20= Baratier's letter? Baratier is doing no more than defending himself and trying to set =20 the record straight after having himself been 'denounced' in a piece =20 of writing sanctioned by Foetry--even if you yourself didn't write it. (oh, we could debate on whether Foetry's denunciation of Baratier's =20 work is 'self-righteous' I suppose or simply 'righteous'-- but it's certainly a denunciation, and one based on innuendo and =20 spurious allegations). Oh, and for the sake of full-disclosure, here as well, before you do =20 any more research, yes, my first full-length book of poetry, back in 1994, was the first =20= book Pavement Saw Press published (the book is now out of print now, and, no, it was not supported by =20 any taxpayer's cream), but this is not the reason I'm defending David against Foetry's =20 accusations and I'm open to the possible usefulness of Foetry as a kind of =20 'watchdog' I suppose, but in this case, there's more than enough evidence to support =20 Baratier's counter claims and nothing but conjecture to support those posted by Foetry (even if =20= not by you personally). Chris On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Alan Cordle wrote: > Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier > > October 5th, 2007 by alan > > In recent research I=92ve been conducting, I came across the =20 > following post > on the Poetics listserv out of Buffalo. It=92s from David Baratier of > Pavement Saw Press, from April of this year. > > It frustrates me to see someone so self-righteously denounce =20 > Foetry.com=92s > work, particularly in light of the fact that I did not write _one =20 > word_ of > the paragraph he attributed to me. Another forum member, Monday Love, > wrote it. Baratier was completely careless in this post. And no, =20 > I=92m not > against all contests either. And I=92m pro Monday Love too. > > Thank you for allowing me to correct the record. > > Alan Cordle > founder of Foetry.com > > =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=96 > > Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:35:21 -0700 > Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org > Sender: UB Poetics discussion group > From: David Baratier > Subject: Agni needs a spine > In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1The =20 > situation > with foetry affects all of us. It is apparent from my > interactions with foetry that Alan Cordle is against all contests, > even an > honest one. Foetry first went after me insinuating that I =20 > appeared in the > Denver Quarterly because I had Bin Ramke as a judge. That =20 > statement > sat on > their site for many months even after the timeline was shown to =20= > them that > proved that the accusation was false. I am not sure why we were =20= > brought > onto their site except for an apparent need of Cordle to attack =20= > Ramke and > anyone who used him as a judge. The passage below written by =20 > Cordle is > yet > another instance of his making things up without evidence: > =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97- Let=92s see. Please tell me if I got = anything > wrong. David Baratier=92s letters and poems have appeared in the =20= > Denver > Quarterly, editor Bin Ramke, professor, University of Denver. =20 > Baratier is > editor of Pavement Saw Press, in Ohio, which gets money from Ohio > taxpayers in order to establish, according to Pavement Saw Press=92s= > mission > statement, a =93non-university affiliated press=94 which helps =20 > Ohio=92s economy > by attracting outside attention and publishing =93works of = national > signifiance.=94 Dana Curtis, Ph.D. University of Denver, wins =20 > Pavement Saw > Press Prize, picked by Ramke. Curtis is founder & editor-in-=20 > chief of > Elixir Press, based in Denver. Jake Adam York, director of =20 > creative > writing, University of Colorado at Denver, and Colorado Council =20= > on the > Arts fellow, wins Elixir Press Prize. Sounds to me like > university-affiliated Denver is the cat and the Ohio taxpayers =20 > are the > cream. It looks like, so far at least, there=92s a nice little =20 > Denver > system > in place here. Very nice. =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97= =97- > Ok, Back to my side again The above written by Cordle is a total > fabrication. York and Curtis didn=92t know each other in fact, at =20= > the time > Dana was in Minneapolis, not Denver I did not know Bin except =20 > for asking > him to judge the contest and I asked him because I called to =20 > find out if > they were going to run a interview I did with Simon Perchik (which > appeared as a feature in an early issue of Jacket) and while he =20= > was on > the > line I asked if he would be interested. I=92ll just stop here. =20 > The whole > thing is starting to bother me again. Our contest is blind =20 > judged, the > manuscripts are stripped of the name and publication credits, =20 > if we can > afford a judge, the judge is sent 25 manuscripts out of all =20 > recieved. If > not I end up judging the batch I am sent back from the readers. =20= > If I am > able to afford publishing two books (1000 run each) from the =20 > entries I > do. > Then we pay to mail everyone at least their entry fee worth of =20 > books we > have published. I think we run one of the fairest contests =20 > there is, I > challenged Cordle to come up with a place that did better. I am =20= > still > waiting. Anyway, my experience is that we would have something =20 > false > written about us with no evidence, and once that material =20 > appeared on the > foetry website it became my job to =93prove him wrong.=94 I should = =20 > also > mention that Levine is one of our authors. And that (for the =20 > record, > as to > avoid more wild speculation) his book won our contest before =20 > Tupelo was > publishing. I also do not see why Levine being accused of a =20 > problem with > the way he runs his press should affect the acceptance of his =20 > poems into > journals. This is heading into an ugly direction, what is next? =20= > Will AGNI > apologize about publishing poems if a poet is accused of running a > red-light? Maybe AGNI should apologize for all of the poems =20 > they publish > until they get a spine. Considering the student teacher =20 > problems with > poetry awards and with contests who have chosen a winner =20 > beforehand, my > amazement with Cordle is how inflated he is over the little he has > revealed. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO =20 > Box 6291 > Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:05:59 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edmund Hardy Subject: Peter Riley Symposium In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Intercapillary Space" is today launching a blog symposium on the work of P= eter Riley, the British poet. This will range over the next eleven days wit= h a new article on the site every morning (timetable below). Readers are in= vited to comment at length or in brief on what they find, maybe writing fur= ther pieces to extend the symposium onwards. =20 To launch the symposium, a Peter Riley eBook: This is a revision of a poem first published in Grosseteste Review X, 1977,= and it will be returned to by Michael Haslam in his forthcoming essay for = this symposium. In that piece Haslam comments, "It stands out, like a mount= ain peak or a sore thumb. It breaks the rules of several schools of poetry.= The poet must have wondered, Am I really writing this?" Peter Riley's comm= ent on Haslam's piece will also discuss this poem. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Symposium Timetable =20 MondayMichael Haslam: The Art of Ethical MeditationTuesdayKelvin Corcoran: = AlstonefieldWednesdayDavid Kennedy: From A Map of Reading Peter Riley's Pas= sing MeasuresThursdayTom Lowenstein: Excavation and ContemplationFridayGavi= n Selerie: World Levered on OneSaturdayJames Wilkes: Alstonefield: a journa= lSundayAlistair Noon: Ghostly Others on a Ridge-Top Walk: Peter Riley's "Ar= ia with Small Lights"MondayPeter Hughes: A poem and an essayTuesdayPeter Ri= ley: Comment on Michael Haslam's 'The Art of Ethical Meditation'WednesdayDa= vid-Baptiste ChirotThursdayMelissa Flores-B=F3rquez: I've lost my watch: Th= e Llyn Writings _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail http://www.newhotmail.co.uk= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:17:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Listenlight 12 Crew MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Issue 12 -- Alan Davies (North), Jesse Crockett (South), David-Baptiste Chirot (East), Pearl Pirie (West) Corrected proviso: works well enough through modern processors (700MHz+), but requires about 1200x800 pixels, and you really should getfirefox.com. As usual, more open source web design & development crews are interested than micro-soft poets. listenlight.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:33:26 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit While it seems incontrovertible that Creeley is immeasurably more of a poet than Simic, greater poets than Creeley have fallen off mightily from their early attainments--think of Whitman after 1865 (and look at how much fatter the "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass is than the 1865 edition, let alone the 1855 one). And have you perused Wordsworth's Sonnets on the Punishment of Death any time recently? Well, neither have I, but they ain't no Tintern Abbey, I'll tell you that. What's wrong with pointing such things out, if a critic finds them to be the case? Joshua Kotin wrote: Poetics List --- I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of Creeley's Collecteds: http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ JK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:46:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: Villon: caveat lector! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With due respect to my dear and brilliant friend David, of course, there are many myths and much speculation about Villon, often presented as fact, and this sounds a little like one to me.... When it comes down to it, we know close to nothing about him: we're not even sure about the name (Montcorbier? Villon?...). Most of the ballad titles were invented by Clement Marot. Much of his irony we only understand by what we know about the people he mentions. I always just assume anything I read or am told about Villon to be 95% scholarly or poetic fabrication. But that doesn't make it any less appealing, does it -- on the contrary! Amicalement, Alex "C'est, ou ce n'est pas *ca*: rien ou quelque chose..." -- Tristan Corbiere www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:59:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071007002743.0645c860@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The Simic review could have been written in, what, 1965? It's right out of the grand tradition poetry wars, academics vs. New Americans, etc, etc--is this your point, Mark? The fact seems grimly obvious to me....I was surprised that Simic didn't both taking a passing shot at, say, "so-called 'language' poetry" or something of that sort. I agree with you entirely (and thus disagree with Joshua) that, however plausable the account of Creeley's post-1970 work Simic offers, the poetics on which such an account is grounded is one that would reject a great deal of work besides that of the later Creeley: "American poetry is full of daybooks, poets who report everything they see and think and who keep doing the same thing for years, but they usually pay better attention to what goes on around them than he does, filling their poems with nicely observed details and memorable stories. " "Nicely observed details and memorable stories," eh? This is not exactly in the great Romantic tradition of strong claims for poetry; though it may be in the tradition of the most mediocre professional instruction of creative writing..... On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not > just about Creeley. > > I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a > couple of days before I can get to it. > > Mark > > > At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: >> Poetics List --- >> >> I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of >> Creeley's Collecteds: >> >> http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on- >> creeley/ >> >> JK V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:03:00 -0600 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: new anthology of contemporary poetry... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hey folks; thot you might be interested in learing about a new anthology of poetry = entitled 131.839 sl=F6g me=F0 bilum by Eir=EDkur =D6rn Nor=F0dahl, hot = off the press from Leevi Lehto's new press: *** "Few things supported the regeneration of Icelandic poetry in the = fifties and sixties more than the collection "Foreign modern poetry". = Here, Eir=EDkur =D6rn Nor=F0dahl, has played the same game, and chosen = and translated poems by living foreign poets. Without a doubt the = material in this book will be an inspiration to both young and older = writers, besides showing us that once again we live in the golden age of = the poem." - Sj=F3n "F=E1tt studdi meira vi=F0 endurn=FDjun =EDslenskrar lj=F3=F0listar =E1 = sj=F6tta og sj=F6unda =E1ratugnum en safnb=F3kin 'Erlend = n=FAt=EDmalj=F3=F0'. H=E9r hefur Eir=EDkur =D6rn Nor=F0dahl leiki=F0 = sama leik, vali=F0 og =FE=FDtt lj=F3=F0 eftir n=FAlifandi =FAtlend = sk=E1ld. =C1n efa ver=F0ur efni b=F3karinnar yngri sem eldri lesendum = innbl=E1stur, fyrir utan a=F0 h=FAn s=FDnir okkur a=F0 enn einu sinni = lifum vi=F0 =E1 gull=F6ld lj=F3=F0sins." - Sj=F3n Charles Bernstein, Jon Paul Fiorentino, Susana Gardner, Oscar Rossi, = Kirby Olson, Leevi Lehto, Sharon Mesmer, Jan Hjort, Jesse Ball, Markku = Paasonen, Jack Kerouac, Derek Beaulieu, Katie Degentesh, Paul Dutton, = Nada Gordon, Paal Bjelke Andersen, Gherardo Bortolotti, Daniel Scott = Tysdal, Iain Bamforth, Michael Lentz, Anne Waldman, Teemu Manninen, Mike = Topp, Ida B=F6rjel, Amiri Baraka, S. Baldrick, bpNichol, Charles = Bukowski, Mairead Byrne, Mark Truscott, John Tranter, Sylvia Legris, = Maya Angelou, Bruce Andrews, Haukur M=E1r Helgason, Craig Dworkin, = Shanna Compton, Lars Mikael Raattamaa, Vito Acconci, K. Silem Mohammad, = Frank Bidart, Rita Dahl, damian lopes, Jelaluddin Rumi, Rachel Levitsky, = Tom Leonard, Hans Magnus Enzensberger, Ian Hamilton Finlay, Ulf Karl = Olov Nilsson, Caroline Bergvall, Christian B=F6k, e. e. cummings, Saul = Williams, a. rawlings, Stephen Cain, Jeff Derksen, Linh Dinh, Nico = Vassilakis, Martin Glaz Serup, Malte Persson, Anna Hallberg. 131.839 sl=F6g me=F0 bilum, 6" x 9", 195 s=ED=F0ur / pages, ISBN = 978-952-215-018-9. K=E1puh=F6nnun / cover design: Lauri Wuolio, = k=E1pumynd / cover images: Halld=F3r Arnar =DAlfarsson. EUR 14,00 + = sendingarkostna=F0ur / mailing costs. for ordering info, check out: http://ntamo.blogspot.com/2007/09/eirkur-rn-nordahl-ritstj-131839-slg-me.= html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:31:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic In-Reply-To: <000401c808ad$1d763670$22de9e04@D48XR971> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You are absolutely right. Mrs. Cheney would never permit any modernism to cross the family threshold (except for what she could not, apparently, stop happening to her daughter's 'life style' choices!). Her tenure as head of the National Endowment for the Humanities bore out her prejudices to the 'dollar denied'. In any case, the juxtapostion between the 19th Century rural west family schtick - which borders on 'camp' or maybe 'camping' - with the realities of say, life in contemporary Iraq is valuable to represent, and would be not doubt brave for the Washington Post to give a visual knock to. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Fluffy Singler wrote: Mrs. Cheney has actually had many words to say about modernism and postmodernism. None of them good. None of it has probably literally crossed her threshold and into her house, but she is all too conscious of them and the way in which they have challenged and destroyed all that she holds dear--personally and politically. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Vincent [mailto:steph484@PACBELL.NET] Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic From today's Washington Post, a quote from a visit to Lyn Cheney, new author of "Blue Skies, No Fences: A Memoir of Childhood and Family," (through 1958): ...Now, she is tucked into a favorite chair in the sunroom at the vice president's residence, a home she will inhabit for 15 more months. The room -- which she redecorated, like much of the residence, to remind her of Wyoming -- is done in neutral tones, with a framed map of the Cheneys' home state on the wall and a sculpture of an elk on a table. (In the adjacent library, there is a buffalo sculpture under a table; there is also an entire shelf of fishing books, including two intimidatingly large tomes titled "Trout, Volume I" and "Trout, Volume II.")... Not to be uppity or easy, but it does not look like modernism, or post-modernism in either art or books has ever crossed the Vice-President's threshold of awareness! What's there appears pure 19th century. I would be surprised if there were not multi-point buck antlers over the fire place. The site would appear to be a rich point of departure for, at least, theater or an installation work in which the 21st century would be im/exploding about the edges (Photographs of Blackwater contractors blazing away in Baghda humvees, trophy Al-Queda captives being tortured in the basement, etc.), while Vice-President's wife continues to rhapsodize about the joys of dating in 1958 in her junior year in the Veep's convertible in downtown Caspar, Wyoming. To quote Marianne Moore in the Steeplejack: ...it is a privilege to see so much confusion... Tomorrow Iran? Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:43:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: erica kaufman Subject: REMINDER: Belladonna on Tuesday (10/9) w/ Stacey Levine and Maggie O'Sullivan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline ZW5qb3kKCkJFTExBRE9OTkEqCgp3aXRoCgpTdGFjZXkgTGV2aW5lICYKTWFnZ2llIE8nU3VsbGl2 YW4KClR1ZXNkYXksIE9jdG9iZXIgOSwgNzozMFBNCkAgRGl4b24gUGxhY2UKKDI1OCBCb3dlcnks IDJuZCBGbG9vcuKAlEJldHdlZW4gSG91c3RvbiAmIFByaW5jZSkKQWRtaXNzaW9uIGlzICQ1IGF0 IHRoZSBEb29yLgoKU3RhY2V5IExldmluZSBpcyBhIFNlYXR0bGUtYmFzZWQgZmljdGlvbiB3cml0 ZXIgd2hvc2UgYm9va3MgaW5jbHVkZSBNeSBIb3JzZQphbmQgT3RoZXIgU3RvcmllcyBhbmQgRHJh LS0sIGEgbm92ZWwsIGJvdGggcHVibGlzaGVkIGJ5IFN1biAmIE1vb24gUHJlc3Mgb2YKTC5BLiBI ZXIgc2Vjb25kIG5vdmVsLCBGIHJhbmNlcyBKb2huc29uLCB3YXMgcHVibGlzaGVkIGluIDIwMDUg 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c2VlaW5nIGFuZCwgaW4gb3JkZXIgdG8gZ28gdG8gc2VlLCBvbmUgbXVzdCBiZSBhIHBpcmF0ZSIK CiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfmthdGh5IGFja2VyCgoqKioK d3d3LmJlbGxhZG9ubmFzZXJpZXMuYmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29tCnd3dy5iZWxsYWRvbm5hYm9va3MuYmxv Z3Nwb3QuY29tCg== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:37:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071007002743.0645c860@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to whoever?it was who posted the actual Simic article....I've already lost my place in my emails but thanks!....turns out to just be the usual "de gustibus" and certainly no "hatchet job"....who was it who explained homosexuality to their young niece: "for people who like those sorts of things, that is the sort of thing they like"....Simic's interpretation of the apothegm "no ideas but in things" seems to fall on the near side of the idea that words?ARE things, and would probably not enjoy the play Creeley enacted with the impossible tennis game between "here" and "there," to give one notable instance.... -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:29 am Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not just about Creeley.? ? I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a couple of days before I can get to it.? ? Mark? ? At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:? >Poetics List ---? >? >I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of? >Creeley's Collecteds:? >? >http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/? >? >JK? ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:59:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maxpaul@SFSU.EDU Subject: On Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Simic is all too eager to nail shut the coffin on the "New Americans" and their mystifying poetics. That is the tone of the piece and seeming objective. Given that he's the new poet laureate, this gesture seems a tad more ungracious than if he were still a "private citizen." --Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 19:15:51 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <7640071B-110C-482F-BAF4-3E93655EC3AA@unlv.nevada.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Simic, for goodness sake, is not promoting "nicely observed details and memorable stories," he's being totally condescending to them--but he's saying that Creeley is even worse than that! Nick LoLordo wrote: The Simic review could have been written in, what, 1965? It's right out of the grand tradition poetry wars, academics vs. New Americans, etc, etc--is this your point, Mark? The fact seems grimly obvious to me....I was surprised that Simic didn't both taking a passing shot at, say, "so-called 'language' poetry" or something of that sort. I agree with you entirely (and thus disagree with Joshua) that, however plausable the account of Creeley's post-1970 work Simic offers, the poetics on which such an account is grounded is one that would reject a great deal of work besides that of the later Creeley: "American poetry is full of daybooks, poets who report everything they see and think and who keep doing the same thing for years, but they usually pay better attention to what goes on around them than he does, filling their poems with nicely observed details and memorable stories. " "Nicely observed details and memorable stories," eh? This is not exactly in the great Romantic tradition of strong claims for poetry; though it may be in the tradition of the most mediocre professional instruction of creative writing..... On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not > just about Creeley. > > I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a > couple of days before I can get to it. > > Mark > > > At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: >> Poetics List --- >> >> I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of >> Creeley's Collecteds: >> >> http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on- >> creeley/ >> >> JK V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:20:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic In-Reply-To: <000401c808ad$1d763670$22de9e04@D48XR971> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i don't think she understands what they are, or she wouldn't say such stupid things about them. Fluffy Singler wrote: > Mrs. Cheney has actually had many words to say about modernism and > postmodernism. None of them good. None of it has probably literally > crossed her threshold and into her house, but she is all too conscious of > them and the way in which they have challenged and destroyed all that she > holds dear--personally and politically. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Vincent [mailto:steph484@PACBELL.NET] > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 2:00 PM > Subject: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic > > From today's Washington Post, a quote from a visit to Lyn Cheney, new author > of "Blue Skies, No Fences: A Memoir of Childhood and Family," (through > 1958): > > ...Now, she is tucked into a favorite chair in the sunroom at the vice > president's residence, a home she will inhabit for 15 more months. The room > -- which she redecorated, like much of the residence, to remind her of > Wyoming -- is done in neutral tones, with a framed map of the Cheneys' home > state on the wall and a sculpture of an elk on a table. (In the adjacent > library, there is a buffalo sculpture under a table; there is also an entire > shelf of fishing books, including two intimidatingly large tomes titled > "Trout, Volume I" and "Trout, Volume II.")... > > Not to be uppity or easy, but it does not look like modernism, or > post-modernism in either art or books has ever crossed the Vice-President's > threshold of awareness! What's there appears pure 19th century. I would be > surprised if there were not multi-point buck antlers over the fire place. > The site would appear to be a rich point of departure for, at least, theater > or an installation work in which the 21st century would be im/exploding > about the edges (Photographs of Blackwater contractors blazing away in > Baghda humvees, trophy Al-Queda captives being tortured in the basement, > etc.), while Vice-President's wife continues to rhapsodize about the joys > of dating in 1958 in her junior year in the Veep's convertible in downtown > Caspar, Wyoming. > To quote Marianne Moore in the Steeplejack: > ...it is a privilege to see so > much confusion... > > Tomorrow Iran? > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:37:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <7640071B-110C-482F-BAF4-3E93655EC3AA@unlv.nevada.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Yup, that's a big piece of it. Thanks, Nick--I was beginning to think nobody else knew how to read the fine print. It's really not a matter of whether Simic likes any of Creeley's work--de gustibus non disputandem est, and all that--it's the terms of his argument. The poetry wars have never ended, although a few more poets attempt to straddle the line than used to. The kind who become poet laureate are usually content simply to ignore us. I know from friends how the system works at NYRB, by the way. Simic wasn't assigned the task, he chose it. He could equally have chosen to remain silent. Mark At 12:59 PM 10/7/2007, you wrote: >The Simic review could have been written in, what, 1965? It's right >out of the grand tradition poetry wars, academics vs. New Americans, >etc, etc--is this your point, Mark? The fact seems grimly obvious to >me....I was surprised that Simic didn't both taking a passing shot >at, say, "so-called 'language' poetry" or something of that sort. > >I agree with you entirely (and thus disagree with Joshua) that, >however plausable the account of Creeley's post-1970 work Simic >offers, the poetics on which such an account is grounded is one that >would reject a great deal of work besides that of the later Creeley: > >"American poetry is full of daybooks, poets who report everything >they see and think and who keep doing the same thing for years, but >they usually pay better attention to what goes on around them than he >does, filling their poems with nicely observed details and memorable >stories. " > >"Nicely observed details and memorable stories," eh? This is not >exactly in the great Romantic tradition of strong claims for poetry; >though it may be in the tradition of the most mediocre professional >instruction of creative writing..... > >On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not >>just about Creeley. >> >>I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a >>couple of days before I can get to it. >> >>Mark >> >> >>At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: >>>Poetics List --- >>> >>>I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of >>>Creeley's Collecteds: >>> >>>http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on- creeley/ >>> >>>JK > >V Nicholas LoLordo >Assistant Professor >Department of English >University of Nevada-Las Vegas >4505 Maryland Parkway >Box 455011 >Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 > >Phone: 702-895-3623 >Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:13:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: ATTN: DAVE MORICE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dave, please backchannel if you get this. I think you phoned condolences to the wrong Dan Coffey. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: bobbyb@uchicago.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobby Baird Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <7640071B-110C-482F-BAF4-3E93655EC3AA@unlv.nevada.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline My guess (though of course I'm happy to be corrected) is that what Mark was referring to was this bit, from the last paragraph: "[Creeley] continued to believe that some bit of language that came out of the blue could be a poem, while in fact the more conventional lyrics and longer narrative poems that required additional tinkering served him better. It's a pity that he felt the need to remain faithful to ideas about composition long after it became clear that they not only were limiting him but were a dead end." For me, anyway, that was the dumbest part of the review=97it's just flat wrong=97and if that is what Mark's objecting to, then count me right there with him. But what interested me was that several of the responses to the review, even more than the review itself, could have been written in 1965. How quickly everyone jumped into the old trenches on the first word of an attack by *one of them* against *one of us*! I hope it's not too flippant to say that a lot has changed since 1965 (or 1985, for that matter). In this particular case, what's changed most is that Creeley is recognized far and wide as one of the most important American poets of the second half of the twentieth century. Does that mean that everything he wrote had to be gold? Of course not. But does anyone think that even Simic would dispute that importance? I didn't get any sense of that from the review, but maybe some hear more sneering than I do in the line, "There was a time when Robert Creeley was a cult figure, a poet nearly as famous as Allen Ginsberg and Robert Lowell." The last time Creeley was reviewed in the NYRB, for _Words_ in 1968, John Thompson could hardly gasp through his condescension (E.g. "This mood has always had an appeal for certain kinds of gentle adolescents".) Simic at least treats Creeley as a peer=97heresy, I know, for some on this list, but is that really so unfair? Simic isn't exactly a johnny-come-lately. That said, the point that seemed worth making was that Creeley's legacy as a teacher, hero, and friend to so many have helped to make him a kind of critical untouchable (in the Eliot Ness sense of the word). I understand that impulse, especially as I expect there are many people who still mourn his loss and who consider that this conversation is happening much too soon. But I do think it's worth acknowledging, since there are also many of us who only know Creeley through his work. And there are at least a few of us who have not been able to reckon his importance=97the obvious impact he's had on so much of contemporary poetry=97on the sole basis of that work. I still can't tell whether that seems obvious or obviously wrong to the people who have responded so far, but that's where I'm coming from. rpb On 10/7/07, Nick LoLordo wrote: > The Simic review could have been written in, what, 1965? It's right > out of the grand tradition poetry wars, academics vs. New Americans, > etc, etc--is this your point, Mark? The fact seems grimly obvious to > me....I was surprised that Simic didn't both taking a passing shot > at, say, "so-called 'language' poetry" or something of that sort. > > I agree with you entirely (and thus disagree with Joshua) that, > however plausable the account of Creeley's post-1970 work Simic > offers, the poetics on which such an account is grounded is one that > would reject a great deal of work besides that of the later Creeley: > > "American poetry is full of daybooks, poets who report everything > they see and think and who keep doing the same thing for years, but > they usually pay better attention to what goes on around them than he > does, filling their poems with nicely observed details and memorable > stories. " > > "Nicely observed details and memorable stories," eh? This is not > exactly in the great Romantic tradition of strong claims for poetry; > though it may be in the tradition of the most mediocre professional > instruction of creative writing..... > > On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not > > just about Creeley. > > > > I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a > > couple of days before I can get to it. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: > >> Poetics List --- > >> > >> I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of > >> Creeley's Collecteds: > >> > >> http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on- > >> creeley/ > >> > >> JK > > V Nicholas LoLordo > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Nevada-Las Vegas > 4505 Maryland Parkway > Box 455011 > Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 > > Phone: 702-895-3623 > Fax: 702-895-4801 > --=20 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review/ http://www.digitalemunction.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi all --- And some of these responses --- not out of the poetry wars? I think the most offensive thing about Simic's review was that it was a piece of occasional journalism --- that it took an important poet, an important life and treated it fairly straightforwardly, without the usual (and perhaps deserved) mythologizing. Just a critique of Creeley's career --- with no real eye to its symbolic importance to "a great deal of work besides." It was, you have to admit, better than seeing Leithauser write on MacNeice. But, by all means, expose the grand ideological implications of the review. + + + + That link, by the way, was to a note by (my colleague) Robert P. Baird, not me. I generally agree with his report, though. JK Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:59:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> From: Nick LoLordo <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The Simic review could have been written in, what, 1965? It's right out of the grand tradition poetry wars, academics vs. New Americans, etc, etc--is this your point, Mark? The fact seems grimly obvious to me....I was surprised that Simic didn't both taking a passing shot at, say, "so-called 'language' poetry" or something of that sort. I agree with you entirely (and thus disagree with Joshua) that, however plausable the account of Creeley's post-1970 work Simic offers, the poetics on which such an account is grounded is one that would reject a great deal of work besides that of the later Creeley: "American poetry is full of daybooks, poets who report everything they see and think and who keep doing the same thing for years, but they usually pay better attention to what goes on around them than he does, filling their poems with nicely observed details and memorable stories. " "Nicely observed details and memorable stories," eh? This is not exactly in the great Romantic tradition of strong claims for poetry; though it may be in the tradition of the most mediocre professional instruction of creative writing..... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:57:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Andrea Brady interview at The Argotist Online Comments: To: british-poets@jiscmail.ac.uk, wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu Andrea Brady interviewed by Andrew Duncan: http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Brady%20interview.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:51:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <105653.61386.qm@web86009.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I have to disagree, Barry: Simic's prose in the essay is full of just such banalities offered as praise. & besides, whenever he praises later Creeley it's for writing a poem that demonstrates a "good eye", for a lyric in the imagist tradition..... On Oct 7, 2007, at 11:15 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Simic, for goodness sake, is not promoting "nicely observed details > and memorable stories," he's being totally condescending to them-- > but he's saying that Creeley is even worse than that! > > Nick LoLordo wrote: > The Simic review could have been written in, what, 1965? It's right > out of the grand tradition poetry wars, academics vs. New Americans, > etc, etc--is this your point, Mark? The fact seems grimly obvious to > me....I was surprised that Simic didn't both taking a passing shot > at, say, "so-called 'language' poetry" or something of that sort. > > I agree with you entirely (and thus disagree with Joshua) that, > however plausable the account of Creeley's post-1970 work Simic > offers, the poetics on which such an account is grounded is one that > would reject a great deal of work besides that of the later Creeley: > > "American poetry is full of daybooks, poets who report everything > they see and think and who keep doing the same thing for years, but > they usually pay better attention to what goes on around them than he > does, filling their poems with nicely observed details and memorable > stories. " > > "Nicely observed details and memorable stories," eh? This is not > exactly in the great Romantic tradition of strong claims for poetry; > though it may be in the tradition of the most mediocre professional > instruction of creative writing..... > > On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not >> just about Creeley. >> >> I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a >> couple of days before I can get to it. >> >> Mark >> >> >> At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: >>> Poetics List --- >>> >>> I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of >>> Creeley's Collecteds: >>> >>> http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on- >>> creeley/ >>> >>> JK > > V Nicholas LoLordo > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Nevada-Las Vegas > 4505 Maryland Parkway > Box 455011 > Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 > > Phone: 702-895-3623 > Fax: 702-895-4801 V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:02:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Villon: caveat lector!// "Honi sois qui mal y pense" In-Reply-To: <496885.94836.qm@web35508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alex: While it is true there are is much mythology and speculation surrounding Vi= llon's life and work, ironically because of his criminal record, there exis= t quite a few documents of his passage on the Parisian section of the Earth= . The steady work of generations of scholars and sundry other Villonophile= s has unearthed a great deal of information on many of the persons mentione= d in Villon's poetry, many dates have been able to be established with some= certainty, and ever more steps forth as distincty as did Harry Lime in The= Third Man from the shadowy alleys of medieval Paris and the labyrinths of = the underworld's vast network, of which Villon was a part. Continued rese= arches into the Jargon Villon employed so often have continued to turn up t= he hitherto covert meanings of a word here and there, illuminating some pre= viously gargoylishly fiercely guarded reference (Michelle Bernstein, Guy Debord's first wife, and/or he the first of = her husbands, has written a very interesting book on the Jargon, for examp= le.) As an example of the mythologizing and speculation of a poet's life, = extended not only to the departed, but even the recently departed, and to t= he living as well, do we not have here on this list the very occurence of t= his in the debates about the Simic review of Creeley? Or in the pages of t= he "Collective Autobiography" of The Grand Piano? And mythologies and speculations are not set in stone, but extremely mu= table. If one reads the criticism and biographies of many poets as they a= re produced through time, one may note what an immense struggle there is al= ways over the "interpretation" of even the largest most undeniable collecti= ons of facts about a poet's life and works. How often do the blurbs not an= nounce the latest bio, translation, book of criticism as "the definitive wo= rk on the subject," "the latest and best word," the "unearthing of a comple= tely unknown side of the artist"--as either a Saint-in-the-making, or the D= evil in Disguise? And then within months or a few years, the further discov= ery of yet more documents, and the subsequent appearance of yet more interp= retations, yet more fabrications, willfully slanted ideological readings or= canon-reformatting blockbusters and the like? "So-and-so is now returned = to her rightful place on the most honored of shelves of our literature . . = . " and "somebody-or-other has at last found his final comeuppance, and bee= n relegated once and for all to the bottom of the literary barrel, there to= swim among the larvae of gnits . . . where he and his demolished prosody = so richly deserve to drown. " Rimbaud, to cite an another example of a poet with a short life and relati= vely small body of work, continues to generate an incredible amount of biog= raphical studies, interpretations, re-evaluations in terms of the current f= avored projected image of him by one person or group, as well as on whateve= r are the most recently unearthed scraps and bits of evidence. =20 The enduring legacy of Villon is his work, itself so filled with documentat= ions clear or obscured by the Jargon and "les neiges d'antan." Yet there c= ontinues to be coming to light ever more documentation from outside sources= of the actuality of his life and of the Paris of the time period. Poets both leaves traces like snails through the world, and create mytholgi= es all on their own out of both the slime and sublime of their real & imagi= ned lives. After a certain point the "demythologizing" of a poet's life (a= nd work)--can turn into a mythology of its own, with the "faith" in it depe= ndent on the convincingness of the argument, of the biographer/critic-mytho= logizer, and the manner of arranging, erasing, adding to "the facts of the= case." I've been reading Felix Feneon's Three Line Novels as it is called in the A= merican edition (NYRB) of this year. These are the "fait divers" snippets = he produced anonymously for the mass circulation paper Le Matin for half a = year in Paris in 1906. (At the same time he was contributing to various An= archist journals and papers under a variety of pseudonyms. One paper, spea= king of Jargon, was written entirely by using only the working class slang= of its intended audience.) This stunning collection of astonishing writing= exists today only because Feneon's mistress of fifty years kept a scrapbok= of his writings, under whatever name or non-name they appeared. The book'= s excellent introduction by Luc Sante discusses some of the myths which aro= se around Feneon due in part to his desire to "work at a distance" as edito= r, translator, anonymous and pseudonymous hyper-author.=20 Mythologies tend to grow up around the poet's head, whether they be laurels= or weeds. The production of the "author function" is not as clear cut a c= onstruct as the "death of the author" would have one presume. The "scene of= the author" so to speak, is a far more contaminated and complicated "scen= e of the crime" (fittingly, for Villon!) than one might be willing to allow= . Works like Spicer's After Lorca and the Yasusada texts point to this, wit= h their fictitious letters, poems, translations, journal entries, foot note= s, introductions, messages from the "Outside" of the factually and fictiona= lly dead, from ghosts, and from the uses of hoaxes, plagiarisms, imitations= , and their own forms of embedded and embodied "literary criticisms & theor= ies." Mythologies, so to speak, engender de-mythologies which in turn create new = mythologies, while all the while continues the Anarkeyological work of exca= vating the facts & texts from the rubbish heaps of history, where texts by= Sappho blow in the winds of Egyptian dumpheaps, inscribed on papyrus used = in the wrapping of fourth rate mummies, unraveling and revealing . . . the= words of Sappho, known to the Ancients as The Eighth Wonder of the World .= . .=20 as James Joyce'd say, "history as her is harped." As for Villon's irony and paradoxes, with a great deal of it, the sort of s= pecificity you mention isn't needed at all to understand what he is present= ing: (note these are Galway Kinell's translations--used here since easy to = find in the bi-lingual edition from New England Press; if you can, read the= original French--the force of the sounds is fantastic-) I know flies in milk I know the man by his clothes I know fair weather from foul I know the tree when I see the sap I know when all is one I know who labors and who loafs I know everything but myself . . .=20 Prince I know al things I know the rosy-cheeked and the pale I know Death who devours all I know everything but myself ------------------------- The goat scratches so much it can't lsleep The pot fethces water so much it breaks Yoo heat iron so much it reddens You hammer it so much it cracks A man's worth as much as he's esteemed He's away so much he's forgotten He's bad so much he's hated We cry good news so much it comes . . .=20 You jeer so much nobody laughs You spend so much you've lost your shirt You're honest so much you're broke "Take it" is worth so much as a promise You love God so much you go to church You give so much you have to borrow The wind shifts so much it blows cold We cry good news so much it comes Prince a fool lives so much he grows wise He travels so much he returns home He's beaten so much he reverts to form We cry good news so much it comes ----------------------------------------- (Written for a competition, so following a strict form re antitheses--) I die of thrist beside the fountain I'm hot as fire, I'm shaking tooth on tooth In my won country I'm in a distant land Beside the blaze I'm shivering in flames Naked as a worm, dressed like a president I laugh in tears and wait without hope I cheer up in sad despair I'm joyful and no pleasure's anywhere I'm powerful and lack all strength Warmly welcome, always turned away . . .=20 Merciful Prince may it please you to know I understand much and have no wit or learning I'm biased agsint all laws impartially What's next to do? Redeem my pawned goods again! Warmly welcomed, always turned away. =20 > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:46:08 -0700 > From: alexdickow9@YAHOO.COM > Subject: Villon: caveat lector! > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > With due respect to my dear and brilliant friend > David, of course, there are many myths and much > speculation about Villon, often presented as fact, and > this sounds a little like one to me.... > When it comes down to it, we know close to nothing > about him: we're not even sure about the name > (Montcorbier? Villon?...). Most of the ballad titles > were invented by Clement Marot. Much of his irony we > only understand by what we know about the people he > mentions.=20 > I always just assume anything I read or am told about > Villon to be 95% scholarly or poetic fabrication.=20 > But that doesn't make it any less appealing, does it > -- on the contrary! > Amicalement, > Alex >=20 > "C'est, ou ce n'est pas *ca*: rien ou quelque > chose..." -- Tristan Corbiere >=20 > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > =20 > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0 Play Star Shuffle:=A0 the word scramble = challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= t= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:24:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Kress Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I'm bit surprised by all this outrage (justified or not) over Simic's = comments on Creeley. After all, even the Roman Catholic Church formally = appoints an advocatus diaboli to argue his case against the candidate for = sainthood before canonization. And they usually let a certain amount of = time pass (10 years?) And isn't that almost what's going on here? = Relax--one review/letter/trashing is not going to undo all those miracles--= if they're genuine. =20 Leonard Kress Associate Professor Communications/Humanities www.harrowgatepress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:36:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Subject: Oct 26: "sucking on words" premiere at The British Library MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The British Library, The Eccles Centre for American Studies and information as material invite you to a special screening of: "Sucking on Words: Kenneth Goldsmith" A film by Simon Morris Date: Friday 26 October Time: 6pm Doors open. 6.30pm: London film premiere of 'sucking on words' Venue: The British Library Conference Centre auditorium, The British Library, 96 Euston Road, London, NW1 2DB 6.30pm London film premiere of sucking on words Tickets are by reservation only. For your free tickets e-mail: simon@informationasmaterial.com We will reserve you a place at the screening and e-mail you a booking confirmation slip. UbuWeb http://ubu.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:43:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Streamlined Versioning System for Listenlight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Now, I don't mean to be hurtful, as I know a lot of you pay real money for file processing applications, but henceforth, all entries into the Listenlight editorial system will be entered into docs.google.com(privately, between the poet and the editor (you & me)). You will be able to make any changes (I will invite you to contribute on the file) at any time. As this is a jump-street project, I will go very lightly by way of suggested changes. Or, you can render your text into Google Docs, and invite me to contribute, as, otherwise, Google will call me the owner. -Jesse Crockett Listenlight Poetry Journal http://listenlight.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:21:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LOL..Amen, brother! it's great to see the fervor is about as equal to the devotees of the cult of Mithras but I expected to see a full evisceration in text with all the build-up on here...maybe we should distribute some chill pills or some other legal mellowing substance and all listen to Pink Floyd singing "Us us us us us us and Them them them them them..." and as to miracles...I heard that a copy of Pieces somewhere out in Texas began to bleed spontaneously as soon as the first copy of the Simic article went through the presses, but have yet to see corroboration...I hear Scully and Muldauer are hot on the trail..... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:26:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <470908360200004C0000D63F@destiny.owens.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps not in this case. but it is dangerous to assume that =B3one review=B2 cannot undo a lifetime=B9s brilliant work. It often has. At least for a few hundred years. As does the blas=E9 attitude exemplified in your letter. =B3Relax, it=B9s not going to hurt anything=B2 is a kind of background poison running thru our time. (Is the implication =B3it=B9s only poetry=B2 lurking here?) Interesting you equate poetic establishment and the Catholic Church=8Bor put them on the same level. Diane di Prima From: Leonard Kress Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:24:22 -0400 To: Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley I'm bit surprised by all this outrage (justified or not) over Simic's comments on Creeley. After all, even the Roman Catholic Church formally appoints an advocatus diaboli to argue his case against the candidate for sainthood before canonization. And they usually let a certain amount of time pass (10 years?) And isn't that almost what's going on here? Relax--one review/letter/trashing is not going to undo all those miracles--if they're genuine. Leonard Kress Associate Professor Communications/Humanities www.harrowgatepress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 19:00:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: New on Joe Brainard's Pyjamas....Chirot, Selby, Found Poetry & Stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Chirot's verbo-visual artwork, new work by Spencer Selby, Found Poetry circa 1945 and more can be found at _http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) . You can also be found there if you submit some work...poetry, fiction, flash fiction and genre-traitor work are welcome...inspired pecking of all sorts.... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 19:40:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <470908360200004C0000D63F@destiny.owens.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit yes it could bec many musicians, philosophers, novelists, etc read the NYRB & it will not fail to influence them. On 10/7/07 4:24 PM, "Leonard Kress" wrote: > I'm bit surprised by all this outrage (justified or not) over Simic's comments > on Creeley. After all, even the Roman Catholic Church formally appoints an > advocatus diaboli to argue his case against the candidate for sainthood before > canonization. And they usually let a certain amount of time pass (10 years?) > And isn't that almost what's going on here? Relax--one > review/letter/trashing is not going to undo all those miracles--if they're > genuine. > > Leonard Kress > Associate Professor > Communications/Humanities > www.harrowgatepress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 19:41:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <26008.37940.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit bec some of his later books, incl Later, are some of his best books. On 10/6/07 8:33 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > While it seems incontrovertible that Creeley is immeasurably more of a poet > than Simic, greater poets than Creeley have fallen off mightily from their > early attainments--think of Whitman after 1865 (and look at how much fatter > the "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass is than the 1865 edition, let alone > the 1855 one). And have you perused Wordsworth's Sonnets on the Punishment of > Death any time recently? Well, neither have I, but they ain't no Tintern > Abbey, I'll tell you that. What's wrong with pointing such things out, if a > critic finds them to be the case? > > Joshua Kotin wrote: Poetics List --- > > I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of > Creeley's Collecteds: > > http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ > > JK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 19:37:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <8C9D71FDF7A3A95-84C-B0@MBLK-M26.sysops.aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit is someone writing a response to the NYRB? On 10/7/07 1:37 PM, "W.B. Keckler" wrote: > Thanks to whoever?it was who posted the actual Simic article....I've already > lost my place in my emails but thanks!....turns out to just be the usual "de > gustibus" and certainly no "hatchet job"....who was it who explained > homosexuality to their young niece: "for people who like those sorts of > things, that is the sort of thing they like"....Simic's interpretation of the > apothegm "no ideas but in things" seems to fall on the near side of the idea > that words?ARE things, and would probably not enjoy the play Creeley enacted > with the impossible tennis game between "here" and "there," to give one > notable instance.... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:29 am > Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley > > > I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not just about > Creeley.? > ? > I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a couple of days > before I can get to it.? > ? > Mark? > ? > At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:? >> Poetics List ---? >> ? >> I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of? >> Creeley's Collecteds:? >> ? >> http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/? >> ? >> JK? > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:50:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic Comments: To: Stephen Vincent In-Reply-To: 10381.35497.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have to confess having in my possession a letter notifying me of a grant from the NEH and signed by, gulp, Ms. Cheney -- proof positive that she wasn't actually reading the proposals -- On Sun, Oct 7, 2007 01:31 PM Stephen Vincent wrote: > >You are absolutely right. Mrs. Cheney would never permit any modernism to cross the family threshold (except for what she could not, apparently, stop happening to her daughter's 'life style' choices!). Her tenure as head of the National Endowment for the Humanities bore out her prejudices to the 'dollar denied'. In any case, the juxtapostion between the 19th Century rural west family schtick - which borders on 'camp' or maybe 'camping' - with the realities of say, life in contemporary Iraq is valuable to represent, and would be not doubt brave for the Washington Post to give a visual knock to. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > >Fluffy Singler wrote: Mrs. Cheney has actually had many words to say about modernism and >postmodernism. None of them good. None of it has probably literally >crossed her threshold and into her house, but she is all too conscious of >them and the way in which they have challenged and destroyed all that she >holds dear--personally and politically. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Stephen Vincent [mailto:steph484@PACBELL.NET] >Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 2:00 PM >Subject: Lyn Cheney's domestic aesthetic > >>From today's Washington Post, a quote from a visit to Lyn Cheney, new author >of "Blue Skies, No Fences: A Memoir of Childhood and Family," (through >1958): > > ...Now, she is tucked into a favorite chair in the sunroom at the vice >president's residence, a home she will inhabit for 15 more months. The room >-- which she redecorated, like much of the residence, to remind her of >Wyoming -- is done in neutral tones, with a framed map of the Cheneys' home >state on the wall and a sculpture of an elk on a table. (In the adjacent >library, there is a buffalo sculpture under a table; there is also an entire >shelf of fishing books, including two intimidatingly large tomes titled >"Trout, Volume I" and "Trout, Volume II.")... > > Not to be uppity or easy, but it does not look like modernism, or >post-modernism in either art or books has ever crossed the Vice-President's >threshold of awareness! What's there appears pure 19th century. I would be >surprised if there were not multi-point buck antlers over the fire place. >The site would appear to be a rich point of departure for, at least, theater >or an installation work in which the 21st century would be im/exploding >about the edges (Photographs of Blackwater contractors blazing away in >Baghda humvees, trophy Al-Queda captives being tortured in the basement, >etc.), while Vice-President's wife continues to rhapsodize about the joys >of dating in 1958 in her junior year in the Veep's convertible in downtown >Caspar, Wyoming. > To quote Marianne Moore in the Steeplejack: > ...it is a privilege to see so > much confusion... > > Tomorrow Iran? > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 00:44:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <470908360200004C0000D63F@destiny.owens.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As I think I've made plain, I think this outrage is misplaced. But consider, aside from whatever symbolic importance one might accord to his Poet Laureateship (in my mind, zero) there is the rather more pragmatic significance of the fact that, since 2004 and through next year, if anyone on this list is applying for a Guggenheim Fellowship--a nice piece of change--he will be the one deciding that you don't deserve it. Leonard Kress wrote: I'm bit surprised by all this outrage (justified or not) over Simic's comments on Creeley. After all, even the Roman Catholic Church formally appoints an advocatus diaboli to argue his case against the candidate for sainthood before canonization. And they usually let a certain amount of time pass (10 years?) And isn't that almost what's going on here? Relax--one review/letter/trashing is not going to undo all those miracles--if they're genuine. Leonard Kress Associate Professor Communications/Humanities www.harrowgatepress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 17:07:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, Barry Schwabsky In-Reply-To: <26008.37940.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Folks,=20 I think what=B9s wrong is the snide, uptight tone which stinks of sour grapes= . And what I find most suspect in Simic=B9s piece is the opening attack on the publication of large books of collected poems on principle. Mr. Simic=B9s statement that he himself could not read a thousand pages of poetry by one person unless he was imprisoned for life, make me wonder what he does with his time, and how seriously he takes the work of the poem at all. Reading everything, or everything you can get your hands on, by a great poet is the preface, the foreplay if you will, before getting down to any serious study of her/him. In a class I once sat in on somewhere, Creeley (who was reading Joshua Slocum at the time) talked about what for him constituted good criticism=8Bthat the essay or book should be the record of a journey through = a work, or through all a (wo)man=B9s works. One of the main points that seems to rankle for Mr. Simic has been much iterated by Creeley, and many other poets, artists, musicians, etc., of his time (and mine): that (past a certain point in learning the craft) you are free to take the poem as it comes, let it dictate its own form and intent, with very little=8Bif any=8Brevision. It seems that for Charles Simic that amount of labor that goes into a poem, the amount the poor piece is BE-labored, the more he can take it seriously as =B3Art=B2. I am not sure why the idea of spontaneous creation--taking dictation (Spicer), obedience to the poem (Duncan) etc. etc.--is so threatening to certain writers and critic, but it is.=20 In the course of this one essay Mr. Simic deliberately(?) cites and misunderstands at least two statements by Robert Creeley (not surprising, since he apparently often misreads the poems as well). Creeley is quoted as saying: =B3Poetry seems to be written momently=8Bthat is, it occupies a moment of time. . . . I seem to be given to work in some intense moment of whatever possibility, and if I manage to gain the articula-tion (sic) necessary in that moment, then happily there is the poem.=B2=20 This leads Simic to assume that =B3all we can except. . . will be jottings, words and phrases about his state of mind which will rely on his knack for colloquial speech to conceal the paucity of content.=B2 BUT: Momently =8B harks back to =B3momentous=B2 in my ear, and I would be willing to bet in Creeley=B9s. It=B9s a moment, yes, but a momentous moment if you will, a charged moment many of us have experienced. The paradox is that it=B9s in tim= e and =B3out of time=B2 (H.D.=B9 phrase) at the same time. In the same way =B3happily= =B2 sounds its root=8Bhappy involves chance, fortuitous chance=8Bthus the poem arrives in the moment IF the poet has =B3gained the articulation=B2. You gain i= t by many hours, many years of paying attention to craft, but not by applying craft as a sledge hammer to the whatever possiblity stands in the Moment. It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear al= l the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue. There=B9s still more to be said about this quotation and its misreading. And pages to write about Simic=B9s misunderstanding a bit further on in his piece where he sneeringly dismisses the advice Creeley quotes as having come to him at different times from Ginsberg and from Duncan. But enough for now. Toward the end of his =B3review=B2 Mr. Simic has occasion t= o refer to Robert Creeley=B9s views as =B3reductive=B2. I fear the habitual reductivism he should look to is his own. Diane di Prima From: Barry Schwabsky Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:33:26 +0100 To: Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley While it seems incontrovertible that Creeley is immeasurably more of a poet than Simic, greater poets than Creeley have fallen off mightily from their early attainments--think of Whitman after 1865 (and look at how much fatter the "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass is than the 1865 edition, let alone the 1855 one). And have you perused Wordsworth's Sonnets on the Punishment of Death any time recently? Well, neither have I, but they ain't no Tintern Abbey, I'll tell you that. What's wrong with pointing such thing= s out, if a critic finds them to be the case? Joshua Kotin wrote: Poetics List --- I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of Creeley's Collecteds: http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ JK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 01:46:45 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Villon: caveat lector!// "Honi sois qui mal y pense" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David: I'm a bit puzzled by a couple of things you say. << Continued researches into the Jargon Villon employed so often have continued to turn up the hitherto covert meanings of a word here and there, illuminating some previously gargoylishly fiercely guarded reference >> The Poems in Jargon (cant would be a better term in English) are a very small part of Villon's work. While cant terms do occur in _The Testament_, even the most extreme case there, the ballade "De bonne doctrine a ceux de mauvaise vie," isn't even close to the relatively impenetrable language of the argot poems. << (Michelle Bernstein, Guy Debord's first wife, and/or he the first of her husbands, has written a very interesting book on the Jargon, for example.) >> Are you confusing Michelle Bernstein with Alice Becker-Ho, Debord's widow (second wife?)? Becker-Ho wrote _The Princes of Jargon_ about the Romani origins of all varieties of European cant, not simply French argot, and certainly not insofar as I've read in it, with much specific reference to Villon. Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 19:24:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Given Diane's most recent post to the list, i'm of the opinion that she ought to. It perfectly outlines everything that is wrong with the Simic piece. Ruth Lepson wrote: > is someone writing a response to the NYRB? > > > On 10/7/07 1:37 PM, "W.B. Keckler" wrote: > > >> Thanks to whoever?it was who posted the actual Simic article....I've already >> lost my place in my emails but thanks!....turns out to just be the usual "de >> gustibus" and certainly no "hatchet job"....who was it who explained >> homosexuality to their young niece: "for people who like those sorts of >> things, that is the sort of thing they like"....Simic's interpretation of the >> apothegm "no ideas but in things" seems to fall on the near side of the idea >> that words?ARE things, and would probably not enjoy the play Creeley enacted >> with the impossible tennis game between "here" and "there," to give one >> notable instance.... >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Weiss >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:29 am >> Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley >> >> >> I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not just about >> Creeley.? >> ? >> I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a couple of days >> before I can get to it.? >> ? >> Mark? >> ? >> At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:? >> >>> Poetics List ---? >>> ? >>> I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of? >>> Creeley's Collecteds:? >>> ? >>> http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/? >>> ? >>> JK? >>> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - >> http://mail.aol.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 22:44:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Experimental Saucer Segment Narrative (6 frames) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Experimental Saucer Segment Narrative (6 frames) Coppermine critical error: Unable to connect to database ! http://www.asondheim.org/saucersegment.mov MySQL said: Access denied for user 'ahufo_mediamonke'@'localhost' (using password: YES) http://www.asondheim.org/saucersegment.mov The UFO Sightings, Conspiracy Theories, Paranormal Activity- Alien Hub database has encountered a problem. http://www.asondheim.org/saucersegment.mov Could not find phrase 'register_not_agreed'. http://www.asondheim.org/saucersegment.mov The requested URL /yet-more-ufos-t939.html was not found on this server. http://www.asondheim.org/saucersegment.mov Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. http://www.asondheim.org/saucersegment.mov Could not find phrase 'invalidid'. http://www.asondheim.org/saucersegment.mov The author reveals the starting truth about extraterrestrial visitation: contact has been established. http://www.asondheim.org/saucersegment.mov ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: 'Howl' too hot to hear Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed 'Howl' too hot to hear 50 years after poem ruled not obscene, radio fears to air it Joe Garofoli, Chronicle Staff Writer http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/03/ MN0PSIM67.DTL Wednesday, October 3, 2007 Lawrence Ferlinghetti first published "Howl." He sees FCC... Attorney Jake Ehrlich (left) defended "Howl" publisher La... Fifty years ago today, a San Francisco Municipal Court judge ruled that Allen Ginsberg's Beat-era poem "Howl" was not obscene. Yet today, a New York public broadcasting station decided not to air the poem, fearing that the Federal Communications Commission will find it indecent and crush the network with crippling fines. Free-speech advocates see tremendous irony in how Ginsberg's epic poem - which lambastes the consumerism and conformism of the 1950s and heralds a budding American counterculture - is, half a century later, chilled by a federal government crackdown on the broadcasting of provocative language. In the new media landscape, the "Howl" controversy illustrates how indecency standards differ on the Internet and on the public airwaves. Instead of broadcasting the poem on the air today, New York listener-supported radio station WBAI will include a reading of the poem in a special online-only program called "Howl Against Censorship." It will be posted on www.pacifica.org, the Internet home of the Berkeley-based Pacifica Foundation, because online sites do not fall under the FCC's purview. "Why, 50 years later after a judge ruled that children could read this poem, people are afraid the courts will say that their ears shouldn't hear it," said Ron Collins, a constitutional law instructor and First Amendment advocate who is leading a small group of authors, broadcasters and free-speech advocates pushing to broadcast the poem eventually. "Yet they can go on the Internet and see far, far worse things." Another irony: WBAI, the Pacifica Foundation station in New York that plans to post "Howl" online, is the same station that took on the FCC more than 30 years ago over the right to air George Carlin's comedy routine featuring the "seven dirty words." The challenge led to a 1978 Supreme Court decision governing what naughty words can be broadcast and when. Pacifica's attorney for FCC issues, John Crigler, thinks airing "Howl" would be "a great test case" in the current environment. But he understands why WBAI won't broadcast "Howl," even between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., the hours the FCC has cordoned off for rougher language. WBAI program director Bernard White fears that the FCC will fine the station $325,000 for every one of Ginsberg's dirty-word bombs. If each Pacifica station that aired the poem - and possibly repeated it - were to be fined for airing "Howl," it could mean millions of dollars in fines. The potential impact of such penalties is daunting to a commercial- free station with a $4 million annual budget whose financial state White described as "in the black, but we're surrounded by a lot of red ink. A fine like that might crush us." Interim Pacifica Foundation executive director Dan Siegel said, "And I think they're being optimistic with that financial assessment." Siegel said each Pacifica station is free to air the program if it wishes, but he didn't know if any planned to. But with a budget of $18 million for all of its five stations, Siegel said, "it might make more sense for CBS or someone like them to take on a risk like this." So the poem that begins "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness" finds itself an odd bedfellow in the battle against the FCC with entertainers like Nicole Richie and Cher, both of whom were deemed to cross the FCC's dirty-words line that free- speech advocates say is constantly shifting. Last month, several public broadcasting outlets - including San Francisco's KQED - broadcast "clean" versions of Ken Burns' World War II documentary "The War" because they feared the FCC would punish them for airing four four-letter words that turn up over the course of the visually graphic 14-hour documentary about the brutality of war. At last month's Emmy Awards broadcast, the Fox network censored three instances in which performers said words that the network felt could land it an FCC fine. One involved comedian Ray Romano using the word "screwing." In another instance, a performer mouthed, but didn't say, a four-letter word. The third was actress Sally Field using the word "goddamn" to describe her opposition to the war in Iraq. Free-speech advocates and broadcasters say uncertainty about appropriateness is rooted in two recent cases that are wending their way through the court system. Last month, attorneys for CBS asked a federal appeals court to overturn a $550,000 fine the FCC imposed for airing singer Janet Jackson's exposed breast during her infamous "wardrobe malfunction" in the 2004 Super Bowl halftime show. The FCC said that even though the exposure lasted only 9/16th of a second, CBS failed to exercise proper control of its "employees" - Jackson and halftime show co-star Justin Timberlake. In June, the Second U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York ruled that the FCC acted "arbitrarily and capriciously" when it planned to penalize Fox for "fleeting expletives" uttered by Cher and Richie at the Billboard Music awards shows in 2002 and 2003 respectively. The network's attorneys said the FCC hadn't punished such "fleeting expletives" since the 1978 Pacifica case involving WBAI and Carlin's seven dirty words. But while Pacifica's Crigler said "Howl" would be a good test case for this new landscape, University of Virginia law professor and former FCC Commissioner Glen O. Robinson said "it is best to let the other cases go through the system first." "Maybe the commission would look differently on it if we were talking about Shakespeare, but Ginsberg isn't Shakespeare," he said. But in an era in which a bottomless well of profanity and pornography is available online, why should it matter that "Howl" can't be broadcast on the radio? Finding "Howl" is a quick online search away for anyone old enough to access a computer. "But you still have to have a computer," said Janet Coleman, arts director at WBAI, who is airing a program Wednesday about "Howl" with San Francisco's iconic poet and City Lights Books owner Lawrence Ferlinghetti and others. Like other station employees, she feels frustrated by the current atmosphere. "This is about the public airwaves. If we can't control what goes on them, then how much freedom do we really have?" she said. The power of Ginsberg's poem isn't lost on Ferlinghetti, who faced jail time and a fine 50 years ago for publishing "Howl." In August, Ferlinghetti joined Collins' group of free-speech advocates, writers and attorneys in asking WBAI to air the poem. In an interview to be broadcast today on WBAI to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the poem's legal victory, Ferlinghetti was asked what Ginsberg, who died in 1997, would have said about the broadcast controversy. "Ah, well, I'm sure he'd have plenty to say about it. I often lament that he isn't around to say it," Ferlinghetti told WBAI. "As Allen Ginsberg's original publisher and editor, for most of his life, I look at the present situation as a repeat in spades of what happened in the 1950s, which was also a repressive period," he said. "The current FCC policy wasn't conceived just for poetry, but when applied to the case of Allen Ginsberg's poem 'Howl,' it amounts to government censorship of an important critique of modern civilization, especially of America and its consumerist society, whose breath is money, still. "It's such a hypocritical concept of American culture in which children are regularly exposed to adult programming in the mass media, with subjects ranging from sexual to criminal to state- sponsored terrorism, while at the same time they are not allowed to hear poetry far less explicit," Ferlinghetti said. "I suggest the FCC ban all television newscasts until after 10 p.m., when children won't be listening." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 03:59:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Villon: caveat lector!// "Honi sois qui mal y pense" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << > Continued researches into the Jargon Villon employed so often have > continued > to turn up the hitherto covert meanings of a word here and there, > illuminating some previously gargoylishly fiercely guarded reference >>> > > The Poems in Jargon (cant would be a better term in English) are a very > small part of Villon's work. While cant terms do occur in _The > Testament_, > even the most extreme case there, the ballade "De bonne doctrine a ceux de > mauvaise vie," isn't even close to the relatively impenetrable language of > the argot poems. Actually, I should qualify that a little, as it looks as if I'm denying any cant element in the language of _The Testament_. Not so. But the cant aspect tends to be a slight overlay, certainly in contrast to the poems in argot proper.. Take line 1510 of _The Testament_ -- "Pour retraire ses villotieres" -- translated by Barbara Sargent-Baur as "To redeem those girls who run around," while the Rychner and Henry notes gloss: "VILLOTIERES: 'femmes coureuses, de mauvaise vie." This suggests what we might today call streetwalkers, but in the sixteenth century in England would have been called by a variety of names. There were various terms for female vagabonds available then, such a "doxy" or "dell", each pointing to a specific place in the vagabond organisation, and the closest approximation to a "villotiere" would have been a "walking mort". The idea of walking around was much more powerful (and subversive) in fifteenth century France and sixteenth century England than today, and much more closely associated with organised vagabond societies, so the translation and glosses above probably underestimate the degree to which the word "villotiere", as used by Villon, would have had a reference to a professional female vagabond of a specific kind. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:05:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable wish you wd send this w/ maybe more of it to the NYRB, Diane. On 10/7/07 8:07 PM, "Diane DiPrima" wrote: > Dear Folks,=20 >=20 > I think what=B9s wrong is the snide, uptight tone which stinks of sour grap= es. > And what I find most suspect in Simic=B9s piece is the opening attack on th= e > publication of large books of collected poems on principle. Mr. Simic=B9s > statement that he himself could not read a thousand pages of poetry by on= e > person unless he was imprisoned for life, make me wonder what he does wit= h > his time, and how seriously he takes the work of the poem at all. Reading > everything, or everything you can get your hands on, by a great poet is t= he > preface, the foreplay if you will, before getting down to any serious stu= dy > of her/him. >=20 > In a class I once sat in on somewhere, Creeley (who was reading Joshua > Slocum at the time) talked about what for him constituted good > criticism=8Bthat the essay or book should be the record of a journey throug= h a > work, or through all a (wo)man=B9s works. >=20 > One of the main points that seems to rankle for Mr. Simic has been much > iterated by Creeley, and many other poets, artists, musicians, etc., of h= is > time (and mine): that (past a certain point in learning the craft) you ar= e > free to take the poem as it comes, let it dictate its own form and intent= , > with very little=8Bif any=8Brevision. It seems that for Charles Simic that > amount of labor that goes into a poem, the amount the poor piece is > BE-labored, the more he can take it seriously as =B3Art=B2. I am not sure why > the idea of spontaneous creation--taking dictation (Spicer), obedience to > the poem (Duncan) etc. etc.--is so threatening to certain writers and > critic, but it is. >=20 > In the course of this one essay Mr. Simic deliberately(?) cites and > misunderstands at least two statements by Robert Creeley (not surprising, > since he apparently often misreads the poems as well). >=20 > Creeley is quoted as saying: =B3Poetry seems to be written momently=8Bthat is= , > it occupies a moment of time. . . . I seem to be given to work in some > intense moment of whatever possibility, and if I manage to gain the > articula-tion (sic) necessary in that moment, then happily there is the > poem.=B2=20 >=20 > This leads Simic to assume that =B3all we can except. . . will be jottings= , > words and phrases about his state of mind which will rely on his knack fo= r > colloquial speech to conceal the paucity of content.=B2 BUT: >=20 > Momently =8B harks back to =B3momentous=B2 in my ear, and I would be willing to > bet in Creeley=B9s. It=B9s a moment, yes, but a momentous moment if you will,= a > charged moment many of us have experienced. The paradox is that it=B9s in t= ime > and =B3out of time=B2 (H.D.=B9 phrase) at the same time. In the same way =B3happi= ly=B2 > sounds its root=8Bhappy involves chance, fortuitous chance=8Bthus the poem > arrives in the moment IF the poet has =B3gained the articulation=B2. You gain= it > by many hours, many years of paying attention to craft, but not by applyi= ng > craft as a sledge hammer to the whatever possiblity stands in the Moment. >=20 > It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley=8Band > perhaps many other American poets. It is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear = all > the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue. >=20 > There=B9s still more to be said about this quotation and its misreading. An= d > pages to write about Simic=B9s misunderstanding a bit further on in his pie= ce > where he sneeringly dismisses the advice Creeley quotes as having come to > him at different times from Ginsberg and from Duncan. >=20 > But enough for now. Toward the end of his =B3review=B2 Mr. Simic has occasion= to > refer to Robert Creeley=B9s views as =B3reductive=B2. I fear the habitual > reductivism he should look to is his own. >=20 > Diane di Prima >=20 >=20 > From: Barry Schwabsky > Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " > > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:33:26 +0100 > To: > Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley >=20 > While it seems incontrovertible that Creeley is immeasurably more of a po= et > than Simic, greater poets than Creeley have fallen off mightily from thei= r > early attainments--think of Whitman after 1865 (and look at how much fatt= er > the "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass is than the 1865 edition, let > alone the 1855 one). And have you perused Wordsworth's Sonnets on the > Punishment of Death any time recently? Well, neither have I, but they ain= 't > no Tintern Abbey, I'll tell you that. What's wrong with pointing such thi= ngs > out, if a critic finds them to be the case? >=20 > Joshua Kotin wrote: Poetics List --- >=20 > I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of > Creeley's Collecteds: >=20 > http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ >=20 > JK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:21:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First of all, THIS Simic/Creeley discussion is the kind of content I hope t= o get from this list, so thank you Mark Weiss.=0A=0ASecond, we are fortunat= e to have Diane di Prima in on this discussion as fewer of the original New= American Poets are alive these days and fewer still are active on lists li= ke these, so I am grateful for that.=0A=0AIn my study of Open Form, which a= t one time Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov called Organic (a term I prefe= r to use, see http://www.OrganicPoetry.org) I became convinced that the clo= sed, (non-organic) IS aligned with a reductive cosmology. (Competition, dom= ination and the illusion of control are hallmarks of THAT paradigm.)=0A=0AD= iane said two things I want to zero in on: =0A=0A1) "I am not sure why the = idea of spontaneous creation--taking dictation (Spicer), obedience to the p= oem (Duncan) etc. etc.--is so threatening to certain writers and=0Acritic, = but it is." =0A=0ATo begin to take a shot at answering Diane's question, I'= ll quote Denise Levertov, who said: =0A=0A"Incidentally, I think the at a p= art of the poet's equipment is the instinct for knowing when to 'begin' wri= ting a poem. A poem which is begun to be put on paper, to be crystallized, = too soon, is going to be a poem which, if the poet has a sense of responsib= ility, is going to need an awful lot of revision. This can be avoided by wa= iting until the moment is ripe. Once he has crystallized, initially, the po= em, then comes the responsibility of his intelligence and his judgment."=0A= =0AThe poet who can train herself to recognize and seize the moment is wh= at we're speaking of here, which is part of why I designed the August Poet= ry Postcard Fest (http://www.PoetryPostcards.blogspot.com), so that after a= month of writing spontaneously right on a postcard, by August 31st each pa= rticipant would have a better sense of how the poem begins to well up in on= e's consciousness. There were some participants who were FRIGHTENED of writ= ing right onto the postcard, but each gets to their end in the best way the= y know how.=0A=0AI think with folks who don't understand the organic gestur= e, the impediment is FEAR. They see this stance-toward-poem-making as reckl= ess, and feel they need a greater degree of control via constant revision, = but much of the poetry of the closed school I find gutless and the "mistake= s" the editor's mind would often seek to eradicate may be the finest parts = of a poem. Eileen Myles discussed this to me in an interview I conducted ye= ars ago and a soundbite specific to this aspect of the organic is here: htt= p://splab.org/poets/EileenMyles-onMilk.mp3 You may want to hear the poem sh= e refers to, linked here: http://splab.org/poets/EileenMyles-Milk-poem.mp3= =0A=0ARon Silliman's use of the "School of Quietude" moniker to describe cl= osed poetry resonates with me. Quiet and frightened. Sin duende.=0A=0ADiane= continues:=0A2) "Toward the end of his =B3review=B2 Mr. Simic has occasion= to refer to Robert Creeley=B9s views as =B3reductive=B2. I fear the habitu= al reductivism he should look to is his own."=0A=0AShahar Bram's excellent = book "Charles Olson and Alfred North Whitehead: An Essay on Poetry," as wel= l as Robin Blaser's essay "The Violets" both illustrate the importance of W= hitehead as a source for Olson. Whitehead's process cosmology (Philosophy o= f Organism) must be very frightening to individuals predisposed to a reduct= ionist view of the universe, yet it is quite evident to anyone paying atten= tion that the reductionist view is endangering more than just poetry on thi= s planet. =0A=0AOlson created some of his most important works in dialog wi= th Creeley. Creeley's place in poetry is secure despite the efforts of peop= le like Mr. Simic. I just wish I would have waited two more days instead of= dropping three bucks to read the piece.=0A=0APaul Nelson=0A=0A =0APaul E. = Nelson, M.A. =0AWPA President=0A=0AGlobal Voices Radio=0ASPLAB!=0AAmerican = Sentences=0AOrganic Poetry=0APoetry Postcard Blog=0AWashington Poets Associ= ation=0A=0ASlaughter, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328=0A=0A----- Original M= essage ----=0AFrom: Diane DiPrima =0ATo: POETICS@LI= STSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, October 7, 2007 5:07:13 PM=0ASubject: Re= : On Simic on Creeley=0A=0ADear Folks, =0A=0AI think what=B9s wrong is the = snide, uptight tone which stinks of sour grapes.=0AAnd what I find most sus= pect in Simic=B9s piece is the opening attack on the=0Apublication of large= books of collected poems on principle. Mr. Simic=B9s=0Astatement that he h= imself could not read a thousand pages of poetry by one=0Aperson unless he = was imprisoned for life, make me wonder what he does with=0Ahis time, and h= ow seriously he takes the work of the poem at all. Reading=0Aeverything, or= everything you can get your hands on, by a great poet is the=0Apreface, th= e foreplay if you will, before getting down to any serious study=0Aof her/h= im.=0A=0AIn a class I once sat in on somewhere, Creeley (who was reading Jo= shua=0ASlocum at the time) talked about what for him constituted good=0Acri= ticism=8Bthat the essay or book should be the record of a journey through a= =0Awork, or through all a (wo)man=B9s works.=0A=0AOne of the main points th= at seems to rankle for Mr. Simic has been much=0Aiterated by Creeley, and m= any other poets, artists, musicians, etc., of his=0Atime (and mine): that (= past a certain point in learning the craft) you are=0Afree to take the poem= as it comes, let it dictate its own form and intent,=0Awith very little=8B= if any=8Brevision. It seems that for Charles Simic that=0Aamount of labor t= hat goes into a poem, the amount the poor piece is=0ABE-labored, the more h= e can take it seriously as =B3Art=B2. I am not sure why=0Athe idea of spont= aneous creation--taking dictation (Spicer), obedience to=0Athe poem (Duncan= ) etc. etc.--is so threatening to certain writers and=0Acritic, but it is. = =0A=0AIn the course of this one essay Mr. Simic deliberately(?) cites and= =0Amisunderstands at least two statements by Robert Creeley (not surprising= ,=0Asince he apparently often misreads the poems as well).=0A=0ACreeley is = quoted as saying: =B3Poetry seems to be written momently=8Bthat is,=0Ait oc= cupies a moment of time. . . . I seem to be given to work in some=0Aintense= moment of whatever possibility, and if I manage to gain the=0Aarticula-tio= n (sic) necessary in that moment, then happily there is the=0Apoem.=B2 =0A= =0AThis leads Simic to assume that =B3all we can except. . . will be jotti= ngs,=0Awords and phrases about his state of mind which will rely on his kna= ck for=0Acolloquial speech to conceal the paucity of content.=B2 BUT:=0A= =0AMomently =8B harks back to =B3momentous=B2 in my ear, and I would be wil= ling to=0Abet in Creeley=B9s. It=B9s a moment, yes, but a momentous moment = if you will, a=0Acharged moment many of us have experienced. The paradox is= that it=B9s in time=0Aand =B3out of time=B2 (H.D.=B9 phrase) at the same t= ime. In the same way =B3happily=B2=0Asounds its root=8Bhappy involves chanc= e, fortuitous chance=8Bthus the poem=0Aarrives in the moment IF the poet ha= s =B3gained the articulation=B2. You gain it=0Aby many hours, many years of= paying attention to craft, but not by applying=0Acraft as a sledge hammer = to the whatever possiblity stands in the Moment.=0A=0AIt may be that Mr. Si= mic lacks the language skills to read Creeley=8Band=0Aperhaps many other Am= erican poets. It is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all=0Athe layerings o= f meaning in any but your native tongue.=0A=0AThere=B9s still more to be sa= id about this quotation and its misreading. And=0Apages to write about Simi= c=B9s misunderstanding a bit further on in his piece=0Awhere he sneeringly = dismisses the advice Creeley quotes as having come to=0Ahim at different ti= mes from Ginsberg and from Duncan.=0A=0ABut enough for now. Toward the end = of his =B3review=B2 Mr. Simic has occasion to=0Arefer to Robert Creeley=B9s= views as =B3reductive=B2. I fear the habitual=0Areductivism he should look= to is his own.=0A=0ADiane di Prima=0A=0A=0AFrom: Barry Schwabsky =0AReply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group "=0A=0ADate: Sun, 7 Oct 2007= 01:33:26 +0100=0ATo: =0ASubject: Re: On Simi= c on Creeley=0A=0AWhile it seems incontrovertible that Creeley is immeasura= bly more of a poet=0Athan Simic, greater poets than Creeley have fallen off= mightily from their=0Aearly attainments--think of Whitman after 1865 (and = look at how much fatter=0Athe "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass is than= the 1865 edition, let=0Aalone the 1855 one). And have you perused Wordswor= th's Sonnets on the=0APunishment of Death any time recently? Well, neither = have I, but they ain't=0Ano Tintern Abbey, I'll tell you that. What's wrong= with pointing such things=0Aout, if a critic finds them to be the case?=0A= =0AJoshua Kotin wrote: Poetics List ---=0A=0AI recom= mend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of=0ACreeley's Coll= ecteds:=0A=0Ahttp://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-= creeley/=0A=0AJK=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:18:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Diane DiPrima Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Much agree with Ruth. Beautifully written Diane! Alex --- Ruth Lepson wrote: > wish you wd send this w/ maybe more of it to the > NYRB, Diane. > > > On 10/7/07 8:07 PM, "Diane DiPrima" > wrote: > > > Dear Folks, > > > > I think what¹s wrong is the snide, uptight tone > which stinks of sour grapes. > > And what I find most suspect in Simic¹s piece is > the opening attack on the > > publication of large books of collected poems on > principle. Mr. Simic¹s > > statement that he himself could not read a > thousand pages of poetry by one > > person unless he was imprisoned for life, make me > wonder what he does with > > his time, and how seriously he takes the work of > the poem at all. Reading > > everything, or everything you can get your hands > on, by a great poet is the > > preface, the foreplay if you will, before getting > down to any serious study > > of her/him. > > > > In a class I once sat in on somewhere, Creeley > (who was reading Joshua > > Slocum at the time) talked about what for him > constituted good > > criticism‹that the essay or book should be the > record of a journey through a > > work, or through all a (wo)man¹s works. > > > > One of the main points that seems to rankle for > Mr. Simic has been much > > iterated by Creeley, and many other poets, > artists, musicians, etc., of his > > time (and mine): that (past a certain point in > learning the craft) you are > > free to take the poem as it comes, let it dictate > its own form and intent, > > with very little‹if any‹revision. It seems that > for Charles Simic that > > amount of labor that goes into a poem, the amount > the poor piece is > > BE-labored, the more he can take it seriously as > ³Art². I am not sure why > > the idea of spontaneous creation--taking dictation > (Spicer), obedience to > > the poem (Duncan) etc. etc.--is so threatening to > certain writers and > > critic, but it is. > > > > In the course of this one essay Mr. Simic > deliberately(?) cites and > > misunderstands at least two statements by Robert > Creeley (not surprising, > > since he apparently often misreads the poems as > well). > > > > Creeley is quoted as saying: ³Poetry seems to be > written momently‹that is, > > it occupies a moment of time. . . . I seem to be > given to work in some > > intense moment of whatever possibility, and if I > manage to gain the > > articula-tion (sic) necessary in that moment, then > happily there is the > > poem.² > > > > This leads Simic to assume that ³all we can > except. . . will be jottings, > > words and phrases about his state of mind which > will rely on his knack for > > colloquial speech to conceal the paucity of > content.² BUT: > > > > Momently ‹ harks back to ³momentous² in my ear, > and I would be willing to > > bet in Creeley¹s. It¹s a moment, yes, but a > momentous moment if you will, a > > charged moment many of us have experienced. The > paradox is that it¹s in time > > and ³out of time² (H.D.¹ phrase) at the same time. > In the same way ³happily² > > sounds its root‹happy involves chance, fortuitous > chance‹thus the poem > > arrives in the moment IF the poet has ³gained the > articulation². You gain it > > by many hours, many years of paying attention to > craft, but not by applying > > craft as a sledge hammer to the whatever > possiblity stands in the Moment. > > > > It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills > to read Creeley‹and > > perhaps many other American poets. It is > hard‹almost impossible--to hear all > > the layerings of meaning in any but your native > tongue. > > > > There¹s still more to be said about this quotation > and its misreading. And > > pages to write about Simic¹s misunderstanding a > bit further on in his piece > > where he sneeringly dismisses the advice Creeley > quotes as having come to > > him at different times from Ginsberg and from > Duncan. > > > > But enough for now. Toward the end of his ³review² > Mr. Simic has occasion to > > refer to Robert Creeley¹s views as ³reductive². I > fear the habitual > > reductivism he should look to is his own. > > > > Diane di Prima > > > > > > From: Barry Schwabsky > > > Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group > " > > > > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:33:26 +0100 > > To: > > Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley > > > > While it seems incontrovertible that Creeley is > immeasurably more of a poet > > than Simic, greater poets than Creeley have fallen > off mightily from their > > early attainments--think of Whitman after 1865 > (and look at how much fatter > > the "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass is than > the 1865 edition, let > > alone the 1855 one). And have you perused > Wordsworth's Sonnets on the > > Punishment of Death any time recently? Well, > neither have I, but they ain't > > no Tintern Abbey, I'll tell you that. What's wrong > with pointing such things > > out, if a critic finds them to be the case? > > > > Joshua Kotin wrote: Poetics > List --- > > > > I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's > recent review of > > Creeley's Collecteds: > > > > > http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ > > > > JK > -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:36:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/7/2007 9:13:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM writes: As I think I've made plain, I think this outrage is misplaced. But consider, aside from whatever symbolic importance one might accord to his Poet Laureateship (in my mind, zero) there is the rather more pragmatic significance of the fact that, since 2004 and through next year, if anyone on this list is applying for a Guggenheim Fellowship--a nice piece of change--he will be the one deciding that you don't deserve it. I was not someone who knew Creeley personally, though I saw him read to a large audience; I found his Collected at a picked-over public library and sat right down on the floor and started to read it and felt it to be a great book. I didn't know he wasn't well-liked by some -- I thought he seemed like a kind fellow up at that podium. I liked the Simic review. I thought it was acerbic, perhaps a little like Creeley, too? Isn't the review's tone about the heave of poetry itself, about its weight in tomes, about the work (or power over the dead) of deciding whose real work survives. This group seems to be saying Creeley will survive the next decades in courses & libraries, perhaps longer. I write poems sporadically, not for grants (and may never), but b. makes another due point here. AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:19:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: College of Staten Island MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (this is a forward. please don't resond to me. good luck!) Position: Assistant Professor of English Institution: College of Staten Island Location: New York The Department of English of the College of Staten Island, a senior college of The City University of New York, seeks candidates for an anticipated tenure track position as Assistant Professor of English in Creative Writing beginning September 2008. Required: M.F.A. in Creative Writing and/or a Ph.D. in English; we are looking for a poet with a strong record of teaching and an active publishing agenda: preference will be given to applicants who have published at least one volume of poems. We are interested in receiving applications from poets with a secondary expertise in fiction writing, especially those whose experience and skills would contribute to the teaching of multi-genre classes in a workshop setting. Responsibilities include teaching introductory courses in English; developing courses in areas of specialization; performing department and college service; and engaging in an active publishing agenda. Review of applications will begin on October 15, 2007. Salary range: $52,144 - $67,092 commensurate with experience. Send a letter of application, curriculum vitae, three letters of reference, a writing sample of 10 - 25 pages, and one syllabus or course proposal related to area of specialization by November 15, 2007 to: Professor Mary Reda, Chair; Creative Writing Search Committee; College of Staten Island, Building 2S-218; 2800 Victory Boulevard, Staten Island, NY 10314. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:38:12 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: <470994FB.9070400@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, yes, except the bit about needing to be a native speaker to understand him rankles a bit, honestly. Jason Quackenbush wrote: Given Diane's most recent post to the list, i'm of the opinion that she ought to. It perfectly outlines everything that is wrong with the Simic piece. Ruth Lepson wrote: > is someone writing a response to the NYRB? > > > On 10/7/07 1:37 PM, "W.B. Keckler" wrote: > > >> Thanks to whoever?it was who posted the actual Simic article....I've already >> lost my place in my emails but thanks!....turns out to just be the usual "de >> gustibus" and certainly no "hatchet job"....who was it who explained >> homosexuality to their young niece: "for people who like those sorts of >> things, that is the sort of thing they like"....Simic's interpretation of the >> apothegm "no ideas but in things" seems to fall on the near side of the idea >> that words?ARE things, and would probably not enjoy the play Creeley enacted >> with the impossible tennis game between "here" and "there," to give one >> notable instance.... >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Weiss >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:29 am >> Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley >> >> >> I'd suggest a closer reading of the Simic review. Hint: it's not just about >> Creeley.? >> ? >> I guess I'll have to do the close reading myself. It may be a couple of days >> before I can get to it.? >> ? >> Mark? >> ? >> At 01:14 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:? >> >>> Poetics List ---? >>> ? >>> I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of? >>> Creeley's Collecteds:? >>> ? >>> http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/? >>> ? >>> JK? >>> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - >> http://mail.aol.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 22:58:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well said, Diane. At least for me. Stephen V http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=blogger+help&btnG=Search Diane DiPrima wrote: Dear Folks, I think what¹s wrong is the snide, uptight tone which stinks of sour grapes. And what I find most suspect in Simic¹s piece is the opening attack on the publication of large books of collected poems on principle. Mr. Simic¹s statement that he himself could not read a thousand pages of poetry by one person unless he was imprisoned for life, make me wonder what he does with his time, and how seriously he takes the work of the poem at all. Reading everything, or everything you can get your hands on, by a great poet is the preface, the foreplay if you will, before getting down to any serious study of her/him. In a class I once sat in on somewhere, Creeley (who was reading Joshua Slocum at the time) talked about what for him constituted good criticism‹that the essay or book should be the record of a journey through a work, or through all a (wo)man¹s works. One of the main points that seems to rankle for Mr. Simic has been much iterated by Creeley, and many other poets, artists, musicians, etc., of his time (and mine): that (past a certain point in learning the craft) you are free to take the poem as it comes, let it dictate its own form and intent, with very little‹if any‹revision. It seems that for Charles Simic that amount of labor that goes into a poem, the amount the poor piece is BE-labored, the more he can take it seriously as ³Art². I am not sure why the idea of spontaneous creation--taking dictation (Spicer), obedience to the poem (Duncan) etc. etc.--is so threatening to certain writers and critic, but it is. In the course of this one essay Mr. Simic deliberately(?) cites and misunderstands at least two statements by Robert Creeley (not surprising, since he apparently often misreads the poems as well). Creeley is quoted as saying: ³Poetry seems to be written momently‹that is, it occupies a moment of time. . . . I seem to be given to work in some intense moment of whatever possibility, and if I manage to gain the articula-tion (sic) necessary in that moment, then happily there is the poem.² This leads Simic to assume that ³all we can except. . . will be jottings, words and phrases about his state of mind which will rely on his knack for colloquial speech to conceal the paucity of content.² BUT: Momently ‹ harks back to ³momentous² in my ear, and I would be willing to bet in Creeley¹s. It¹s a moment, yes, but a momentous moment if you will, a charged moment many of us have experienced. The paradox is that it¹s in time and ³out of time² (H.D.¹ phrase) at the same time. In the same way ³happily² sounds its root‹happy involves chance, fortuitous chance‹thus the poem arrives in the moment IF the poet has ³gained the articulation². You gain it by many hours, many years of paying attention to craft, but not by applying craft as a sledge hammer to the whatever possiblity stands in the Moment. It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley‹and perhaps many other American poets. It is hard‹almost impossible--to hear all the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue. There¹s still more to be said about this quotation and its misreading. And pages to write about Simic¹s misunderstanding a bit further on in his piece where he sneeringly dismisses the advice Creeley quotes as having come to him at different times from Ginsberg and from Duncan. But enough for now. Toward the end of his ³review² Mr. Simic has occasion to refer to Robert Creeley¹s views as ³reductive². I fear the habitual reductivism he should look to is his own. Diane di Prima From: Barry Schwabsky Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:33:26 +0100 To: Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley While it seems incontrovertible that Creeley is immeasurably more of a poet than Simic, greater poets than Creeley have fallen off mightily from their early attainments--think of Whitman after 1865 (and look at how much fatter the "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass is than the 1865 edition, let alone the 1855 one). And have you perused Wordsworth's Sonnets on the Punishment of Death any time recently? Well, neither have I, but they ain't no Tintern Abbey, I'll tell you that. What's wrong with pointing such things out, if a critic finds them to be the case? Joshua Kotin wrote: Poetics List --- I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of Creeley's Collecteds: http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ JK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 04:16:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley - "Golden Ears" said Ginsy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If it means something, and I'm just one of many able to learn from Bob, and these comments are bit more thoughtful than my former ones, but Bob was certainly concerned about how well his work might "hold up". We once discussed it, in fact, and I even wrote a poem about it, for him. However sensible our motivations, many of us, quite frankly, are really very hesitant, for fear, perhaps, that our vision "of the world" might not be found valid. It's a strange thing to devote oneself to the task of sharing one's life with so many, and most of whom Bob would never meet. In the end, I suppose that what is wonderful about Simic's piece, having digested posts and sense of loss these last few days, is that Creeley's work is supposed be tested - examined more critically, and, yes, even by "foes". With the turmoil of myth-building days no longer a possibility, this criticism is something for which he would have, because he was no slouch, I think, be happy about. He did spend so many years waiting for this moment, knowing that this is what it is all about, and choosing the tempo. In the end, his voice and vision is what's to be examined. AJ -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:46:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Villon: caveat lector!// "Honi sois qui mal y pense" In-Reply-To: <000901c80957$3bd68b60$4001a8c0@CoreDuo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what is a walking mort? i find this conversation fascinating; i'm learning a lot. thanks! Robin Hamilton wrote: >> << >> Continued researches into the Jargon Villon employed so often have >> continued >> to turn up the hitherto covert meanings of a word here and there, >> illuminating some previously gargoylishly fiercely guarded reference >>>> >> >> The Poems in Jargon (cant would be a better term in English) are a very >> small part of Villon's work. While cant terms do occur in _The >> Testament_, >> even the most extreme case there, the ballade "De bonne doctrine a >> ceux de >> mauvaise vie," isn't even close to the relatively impenetrable >> language of >> the argot poems. > > Actually, I should qualify that a little, as it looks as if I'm > denying any cant element in the language of _The Testament_. Not so. > But the cant aspect tends to be a slight overlay, certainly in > contrast to the poems in argot proper.. > > Take line 1510 of _The Testament_ -- "Pour retraire ses villotieres" > -- translated by Barbara Sargent-Baur as "To redeem those girls who > run around," while the Rychner and Henry notes gloss: "VILLOTIERES: > 'femmes coureuses, de mauvaise vie." > > This suggests what we might today call streetwalkers, but in the > sixteenth century in England would have been called by a variety of > names. There were various terms for female vagabonds available then, > such a "doxy" or "dell", each pointing to a specific place in the > vagabond organisation, and the closest approximation to a "villotiere" > would have been a "walking mort". The idea of walking around was much > more powerful (and subversive) in fifteenth century France and > sixteenth century England than today, and much more closely associated > with organised vagabond societies, so the translation and glosses > above probably underestimate the degree to which the word > "villotiere", as used by Villon, would have had a reference to a > professional female vagabond of a specific kind. > > Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:59:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: busy week, come out to something MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *thursday* noah eli gordon & joshua marie wilkinson rust belt books 7pm 303 allen st for more event information, go here *saturday* buffluxus burchfield-penny arts center the works of emmett williams @ 2pm spoken music @ 5pm 1300 elmwood avenue for more event information, go here -- folks needn't upcoming performances: 10.13 burchfield penny gallery: buffluxus and the works of emmett williams buffalo 11.2 this aint the rosedale library buffluxus toronto 11.3 ottawa city hall buffluxus ottawa http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 03:58:51 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE dear diane, i wish you would send this level, passionate, informed message to the paper as a letter. i particularly love what you say about the poor "be-labored" poem. gabe On Sun, 7 Oct 2007, Diane DiPrima wrote: > Dear Folks, > > I think what=B9s wrong is the snide, uptight tone which stinks of sour gr= apes. > And what I find most suspect in Simic=B9s piece is the opening attack on = the > publication of large books of collected poems on principle. Mr. Simic=B9s > statement that he himself could not read a thousand pages of poetry by on= e > person unless he was imprisoned for life, make me wonder what he does wit= h > his time, and how seriously he takes the work of the poem at all. Reading > everything, or everything you can get your hands on, by a great poet is t= he > preface, the foreplay if you will, before getting down to any serious stu= dy > of her/him. > > In a class I once sat in on somewhere, Creeley (who was reading Joshua > Slocum at the time) talked about what for him constituted good > criticism=8Bthat the essay or book should be the record of a journey thro= ugh a > work, or through all a (wo)man=B9s works. > > One of the main points that seems to rankle for Mr. Simic has been much > iterated by Creeley, and many other poets, artists, musicians, etc., of h= is > time (and mine): that (past a certain point in learning the craft) you ar= e > free to take the poem as it comes, let it dictate its own form and intent= , > with very little=8Bif any=8Brevision. It seems that for Charles Simic tha= t > amount of labor that goes into a poem, the amount the poor piece is > BE-labored, the more he can take it seriously as =B3Art=B2. I am not sure= why > the idea of spontaneous creation--taking dictation (Spicer), obedience to > the poem (Duncan) etc. etc.--is so threatening to certain writers and > critic, but it is. > > In the course of this one essay Mr. Simic deliberately(?) cites and > misunderstands at least two statements by Robert Creeley (not surprising, > since he apparently often misreads the poems as well). > > Creeley is quoted as saying: =B3Poetry seems to be written momently=8Btha= t is, > it occupies a moment of time. . . . I seem to be given to work in some > intense moment of whatever possibility, and if I manage to gain the > articula-tion (sic) necessary in that moment, then happily there is the > poem.=B2 > > This leads Simic to assume that =B3all we can except. . . will be jottin= gs, > words and phrases about his state of mind which will rely on his knack fo= r > colloquial speech to conceal the paucity of content.=B2 BUT: > > Momently =8B harks back to =B3momentous=B2 in my ear, and I would be will= ing to > bet in Creeley=B9s. It=B9s a moment, yes, but a momentous moment if you w= ill, a > charged moment many of us have experienced. The paradox is that it=B9s in= time > and =B3out of time=B2 (H.D.=B9 phrase) at the same time. In the same way = =B3happily=B2 > sounds its root=8Bhappy involves chance, fortuitous chance=8Bthus the poe= m > arrives in the moment IF the poet has =B3gained the articulation=B2. You = gain it > by many hours, many years of paying attention to craft, but not by applyi= ng > craft as a sledge hammer to the whatever possiblity stands in the Moment. > > It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley=8Band > perhaps many other American poets. It is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hea= r all > the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue. > > There=B9s still more to be said about this quotation and its misreading. = And > pages to write about Simic=B9s misunderstanding a bit further on in his p= iece > where he sneeringly dismisses the advice Creeley quotes as having come to > him at different times from Ginsberg and from Duncan. > > But enough for now. Toward the end of his =B3review=B2 Mr. Simic has occa= sion to > refer to Robert Creeley=B9s views as =B3reductive=B2. I fear the habitual > reductivism he should look to is his own. > > Diane di Prima > > > From: Barry Schwabsky > Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " > > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 01:33:26 +0100 > To: > Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley > > While it seems incontrovertible that Creeley is immeasurably more of a po= et > than Simic, greater poets than Creeley have fallen off mightily from thei= r > early attainments--think of Whitman after 1865 (and look at how much fatt= er > the "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass is than the 1865 edition, let > alone the 1855 one). And have you perused Wordsworth's Sonnets on the > Punishment of Death any time recently? Well, neither have I, but they ain= 't > no Tintern Abbey, I'll tell you that. What's wrong with pointing such thi= ngs > out, if a critic finds them to be the case? > > Joshua Kotin wrote: Poetics List --- > > I recommend this note by Robert Baird on Simic's recent review of > Creeley's Collecteds: > > http://www.digitalemunction.com/wordpress/2007/10/05/simic-on-creeley/ > > JK > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:46:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Villon: caveat lector!// "Honi sois qui mal y pense" In-Reply-To: <470A26AF.1000606@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Robin, David C. et al, for the 'Villonious' imput. I, also, find this disucussion fascinating. I wonder if a 'walking mort' - and this may be too obvious or facile - is what we call, 'a dead man walking' - as in, 'he won't be on the streets for long'. Also fascinating to read about the risks and subversive nature of walking in the 15th Century. Ironically, walking, particularly if you are a stranger, is very suspect behavior in 'gated' and many suburban 'communities.'. Or, say, have you ever noticed that are no sidewalks (or walking trails) in the grounds between hotels, etc. in the land around Disney World. (I was stuck at a convention there once). Another place where they want to control all behavior. Well, let's not even get into the pervasivness of surveillance cameras in malls, City Streets, etc. "God's Eye" has many little industries profiting from technologies designed to order and control any 'outlaw' pedestrian behavior. Instead of 'lame duck' I suspect there are some who refer to George Bush as a 'walking mort.' Ironically, in terms of those confined to live behind walls, Lyn Cheney - when asked what she wanted most - said she said would just like to be able to walk into a bookstore and get a book. Unfortunately, in the last six years, since she and Dick got sequstered, the number of Independent Bookstores that you can find on the Street has been radically reduced. It does not seem right that a would-be Villon - going back to Robin's point - can no longer find a store with the poet's books. In my experience, "Strolling" in front of a 'personal' computer monitor for goods, books included, is no equal to the visual pleasures - real people included - on a good street. Stephen Vincent Walking Theory, Junction Press www.junctionpress.com what is a walking mort? i find this conversation fascinating; i'm learning a lot. thanks! Robin Hamilton wrote: >> << >> Continued researches into the Jargon Villon employed so often have >> continued >> to turn up the hitherto covert meanings of a word here and there, >> illuminating some previously gargoylishly fiercely guarded reference >>>> >> >> The Poems in Jargon (cant would be a better term in English) are a very >> small part of Villon's work. While cant terms do occur in _The >> Testament_, >> even the most extreme case there, the ballade "De bonne doctrine a >> ceux de >> mauvaise vie," isn't even close to the relatively impenetrable >> language of >> the argot poems. > > Actually, I should qualify that a little, as it looks as if I'm > denying any cant element in the language of _The Testament_. Not so. > But the cant aspect tends to be a slight overlay, certainly in > contrast to the poems in argot proper.. > > Take line 1510 of _The Testament_ -- "Pour retraire ses villotieres" > -- translated by Barbara Sargent-Baur as "To redeem those girls who > run around," while the Rychner and Henry notes gloss: "VILLOTIERES: > 'femmes coureuses, de mauvaise vie." > > This suggests what we might today call streetwalkers, but in the > sixteenth century in England would have been called by a variety of > names. There were various terms for female vagabonds available then, > such a "doxy" or "dell", each pointing to a specific place in the > vagabond organisation, and the closest approximation to a "villotiere" > would have been a "walking mort". The idea of walking around was much > more powerful (and subversive) in fifteenth century France and > sixteenth century England than today, and much more closely associated > with organised vagabond societies, so the translation and glosses > above probably underestimate the degree to which the word > "villotiere", as used by Villon, would have had a reference to a > professional female vagabond of a specific kind. > > Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:42:35 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Villon: caveat lector!// "Honi sois qui mal y pense" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Maria Damon" > what is a walking mort? > i find this conversation fascinating; i'm learning a lot. thanks! > > Robin Hamilton wrote: There's a long definition in Thomas Harman's _Caveat for Common Cursitors_ of 1567. More briefly, in the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue (technically, the fourth of five editions of Grose's _Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue_): STROLLERS. Itinerants of different kinds. Strolling morts; beggars or pedlars pretending to be widows. http://www.free-ebooks.net/ebook/ebooks/ebooks%20for%20site/tutorials/misc-tutorial/1811%20Dictionary%20of%20the%20Vulgar%20Tongue.pdf "Mort", along with a whole slew of other cant terms -- dell, doxy, Upright Man, darkmans, prigging a prancer, etc -- appears in English in the early part of the sixteenth century. Cant (strictly, a special language used by thieves and vagabonds for concealment, as opposed to [the English Terms] slang and jargon, and parallel to the French "argot") appears in Europe in the late fifteenth century -- Rotwelsh in Germany, Coquilard (I think) in France, which was what Villon wrote his poems in argot in, and first called "peddler's French" in England (in Robert Copland's wildly under-rated _Hye Way to the Spitall Hous_ in 1530) -- probably as a result of the arrival of the Romani in Europe. There's more -- I'm currently working on an attempt to show that the terms "rogue", "whipjack" and "jarkman" are an unintended consequence of the passage of the Act Against Vagabonds in 1530. That act demanded that beggars, both impotent and sturdy, must have passports (licences and seals), and promptly created a new industry in the production of forged passports (by jarkmen). This as a small part of a larger study of the term "blowen", which takes over from "mort" around the end of the eighteenth century in both England and America. Stuff like that. Robin ****************************** From Grose4 (1811), drawing ultimately on Harman: CREW. A knot or gang; also a boat or ship's company. The canting crew are thus divided into twenty-three orders, which see under the different words: MEN. 1 Rufflers 2 Upright Men 3 Hookers or Anglers 4 Rogues 5 Wild Rogues 6 Priggers of Prancers 7 Palliardes 8 Fraters 9 Jarkmen, or Patricoes 10 Fresh Water Mariners, or Whip Jackets 11 Drummerers 12 Drunken Tinkers 13 Swadders, or Pedlars 14 Abrams. WOMEN. 1 Demanders for Glimmer or Fire 2 Bawdy Baskets 3 Morts 4 Autem Morts 5 Walking Morts 6 Doxies 7 Delles 8 Kinching Morts 9 Kinching Coes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:51:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: OT: NYC/ The Passenger Pigeons CD Release Party Sunday Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward=20 --------------- =20 Boog City presents =20 The Passenger Pigeons CD Release Party =20 =20 Sun. Oct. 14, 8:00 p.m., $4 =20 Knitting Factory Old Office 74 Leonard Street=20 NYC =20 Come celebrate the release of The Passenger Pigeons' debut album, So Far...So Ok featuring =20 8:00 p.m. Daouets 9:00 p.m. Dead Rabbit 10:00 p.m. The Passenger Pigeons 11:00 p.m. Alias Pail =20 =20 Directions: 1/9 to Franklin St., or A/C/E to Canal St. Venue is bet. Church St. and Broadway. =20 For further information: 212-842-BOOG(2664) * editor@boogcity.com http://www.knittingfactory.com/ * 212-219-3132 =20 Bios: =20 *Alias Pail www.aliaspail.com =20 Alias Pail are scatterbrain musicians and good friends. Friendship through sound and curiosity. Sometimes Alias Pail feels like playing fractured amateur pop songs: inherited by =B980s twee bands and nonmusical underground Japanese counterparts like Tenniscoats and Maher Shalal Hash Baz. =20 Other times, Alias Pail enjoys using circuit bent instruments in their set to arrive at new sounds and speaker fry. They design and develop their own circuit bent instruments and headlined the final night of the New York City Bent Festival. Alias Pail also enjoys ambient works of Brian Eno and noise and tribal experimental smash up sounds like OOIOO or DNA, fuzzy atmospherics; anything that falls in their lap. They like every song to be its own band. Their sets can adapt from experimental to electronic to pop. Modular approach for music making. =20 =20 *Daouets www.myspace.com/daouets =20 Daouets is a mini-supergroup devised by three musicians who, as tireless collaborators in New York, wanted a little space for their solo material to breathe. Switching off instruments, songwriters, and moods with ease, the group draws on its diverse musical heritage and the diverse talents of its members. Made up of Yoko Kikuchi, Casey Holford, and Daoud Tyler-Ameen. =20 =20 *Dead Rabbit www.myspace.com/deadrabbitmusic =20 Dead Rabbit is a progressive indie rock band from Staten Island. They sound like David Bowie, Jefferson Airplane, and ABBA having a crazy orgy weekend. =20 =20 *The Passenger Pigeons www.myspace.com/rachelandrew =20 =B3The Passenger Pigeons,=B2 Andrew Phillip Tipton and Rachel E. Talentino, strive to make music, which is both, beautiful in its simplicity as well as lovely in it's execution. Two kids, one guitar, a tea pot, and some love. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:11:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "T. A. Noonan" Subject: CFP: Robert Frost -- All Topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Robert Frost Review is currently seeking work on any subject related to Frost for our 2007 and 2008 issues. Since 1991, The Robert Frost Society has published an annual journal of scholarly essays, news, memoirs, and poetry related to the work and life of Robert Frost. We welcome submissions on all aspects of Frost. This includes original research, notes, new manuscripts, new readings of poems, memoirs of encounters with the poet, etc. Submissions may be up to 5,000 words and should follow MLA format. We ask that contributors use the Library of America edition of Robert Frost's Collected Poems, Prose, and Plays (edited by Richard Poirier and Mark Richardson) for all citations. We prefer email submissions. Please send completed works by attachment in Microsoft Word (.DOC) format to either or . If you wish to mail your submission, please send to: The Robert Frost Review Department of English The University of Southern Mississippi 118 College Drive, #5037 Hattiesburg, MS 39406-5757 -- Regards, T.A. Noonan Managing Editor, Robert Frost Review http://www.robertfrostsociety.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:58:01 -0700 Reply-To: signupz@bluehole.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: signupz Subject: Re: Foetry & Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier In-Reply-To: <71CC6767-9DAC-4CD2-879E-023E377FA25C@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Chris, Perhaps libelous would be a better word than careless. And rather than acknowledging this major mistake on the part of Baratier, you twice question whether I am "indeed" Monday Love. ML has an actual name and it's available on the forum. I choose not to use it because he was outed against his will, just as I was. ML has a poet wife (as do I) and he has young children. I would not want him and his family to suffer the nastiness I've been subjected to in the past two years. I hope people will consider his family, even if you disagree with his words. Thank you, Alan Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Dear Alan Cordle--- > > David Baratier's post does not seem "completely careless" to me... > If, indeed, you are not "Monday Love," then maybe David's post is > slightly careless for not making it clear that you're not this person > (if indeed you aren't) > Also, why do you use the term "self-righteously denounce" to describe > Baratier's letter? > Baratier is doing no more than defending himself and trying to set the > record straight after having himself been 'denounced' in a piece of > writing sanctioned by Foetry--even if you yourself didn't write it. > (oh, we could debate on whether Foetry's denunciation of Baratier's > work is 'self-righteous' I suppose or simply 'righteous'-- > but it's certainly a denunciation, and one based on innuendo and > spurious allegations). > > Oh, and for the sake of full-disclosure, here as well, before you do > any more research, > yes, my first full-length book of poetry, back in 1994, was the first > book Pavement Saw Press published > (the book is now out of print now, and, no, it was not supported by > any taxpayer's cream), > but this is not the reason I'm defending David against Foetry's > accusations > and I'm open to the possible usefulness of Foetry as a kind of > 'watchdog' I suppose, > but in this case, there's more than enough evidence to support > Baratier's counter claims > and nothing but conjecture to support those posted by Foetry (even if > not by you personally). > > Chris > > > On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Alan Cordle wrote: > >> Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier >> >> October 5th, 2007 by alan >> >> In recent research I’ve been conducting, I came across the following >> post >> on the Poetics listserv out of Buffalo. It’s from David Baratier of >> Pavement Saw Press, from April of this year. >> >> It frustrates me to see someone so self-righteously denounce >> Foetry.com’s >> work, particularly in light of the fact that I did not write _one >> word_ of >> the paragraph he attributed to me. Another forum member, Monday Love, >> wrote it. Baratier was completely careless in this post. And no, I’m not >> against all contests either. And I’m pro Monday Love too. >> >> Thank you for allowing me to correct the record. >> >> Alan Cordle >> founder of Foetry.com >> >> ——————————– >> >> Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:35:21 -0700 >> Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org >> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >> From: David Baratier >> Subject: Agni needs a spine >> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1The >> situation >> with foetry affects all of us. It is apparent from my >> interactions with foetry that Alan Cordle is against all contests, >> even an >> honest one. Foetry first went after me insinuating that I >> appeared in the >> Denver Quarterly because I had Bin Ramke as a judge. That statement >> sat on >> their site for many months even after the timeline was shown to >> them that >> proved that the accusation was false. I am not sure why we were >> brought >> onto their site except for an apparent need of Cordle to attack >> Ramke and >> anyone who used him as a judge. The passage below written by >> Cordle is >> yet >> another instance of his making things up without evidence: >> ————————- Let’s see. Please tell me if I got anything >> wrong. David Baratier’s letters and poems have appeared in the >> Denver >> Quarterly, editor Bin Ramke, professor, University of Denver. >> Baratier is >> editor of Pavement Saw Press, in Ohio, which gets money from Ohio >> taxpayers in order to establish, according to Pavement Saw Press’s >> mission >> statement, a “non-university affiliated press” which helps Ohio’s >> economy >> by attracting outside attention and publishing “works of national >> signifiance.” Dana Curtis, Ph.D. University of Denver, wins >> Pavement Saw >> Press Prize, picked by Ramke. Curtis is founder & editor-in-chief of >> Elixir Press, based in Denver. Jake Adam York, director of creative >> writing, University of Colorado at Denver, and Colorado Council >> on the >> Arts fellow, wins Elixir Press Prize. Sounds to me like >> university-affiliated Denver is the cat and the Ohio taxpayers >> are the >> cream. It looks like, so far at least, there’s a nice little Denver >> system >> in place here. Very nice. ———————————————- >> Ok, Back to my side again The above written by Cordle is a total >> fabrication. York and Curtis didn’t know each other in fact, at >> the time >> Dana was in Minneapolis, not Denver I did not know Bin except for >> asking >> him to judge the contest and I asked him because I called to find >> out if >> they were going to run a interview I did with Simon Perchik (which >> appeared as a feature in an early issue of Jacket) and while he >> was on >> the >> line I asked if he would be interested. I’ll just stop here. The >> whole >> thing is starting to bother me again. Our contest is blind >> judged, the >> manuscripts are stripped of the name and publication credits, if >> we can >> afford a judge, the judge is sent 25 manuscripts out of all >> recieved. If >> not I end up judging the batch I am sent back from the readers. >> If I am >> able to afford publishing two books (1000 run each) from the >> entries I >> do. >> Then we pay to mail everyone at least their entry fee worth of >> books we >> have published. I think we run one of the fairest contests there >> is, I >> challenged Cordle to come up with a place that did better. I am >> still >> waiting. Anyway, my experience is that we would have something false >> written about us with no evidence, and once that material >> appeared on the >> foetry website it became my job to “prove him wrong.” I should also >> mention that Levine is one of our authors. And that (for the record, >> as to >> avoid more wild speculation) his book won our contest before >> Tupelo was >> publishing. I also do not see why Levine being accused of a >> problem with >> the way he runs his press should affect the acceptance of his >> poems into >> journals. This is heading into an ugly direction, what is next? >> Will AGNI >> apologize about publishing poems if a poet is accused of running a >> red-light? Maybe AGNI should apologize for all of the poems they >> publish >> until they get a spine. Considering the student teacher problems >> with >> poetry awards and with contests who have chosen a winner >> beforehand, my >> amazement with Cordle is how inflated he is over the little he has >> revealed. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO >> Box 6291 >> Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:53:06 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Villon: caveat lector!// "Honi sois qui mal y pense" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Stephen Vincent" > I wonder if a 'walking mort' - and this may be too obvious or facile - is > what we call, 'a dead man walking' - as in, 'he won't be on the streets > for long'. The quick answer to this is, "No," Stephen. Here, "mort" doesn't link to the French word for "death". Probably originally Romani, entering English thieves' cant in the early 16thC via Anglo-Romani rather than fully inflected Romani. [Hey, that's a guess, so don't quote me!] (Off the top of my head) "Dead Man Walking" is pretty much American, 19th or post-19thC, and may be specifically connected to execution by the electric chair. [Just checked, and it isn't in Beale/Partridge, Partridge's Dict/Underworld, or Green's Cassell/Slang, so may be very recent -- post 1950?] Another distinction would be that in English executions, the condemned were taken to the gallows in a cart -- thus no walking for them at the end, poor buggers. They came to the nubbing cheat -- the terms "nubbing" and "cheat" ["cheat" means, roughly, "thing" -- as in "cackling cheat", a goose, etc.] both go back to the 1560s in England, and persist quite late. Larry, who is topped in Dublin in the 1780s, ends there, in "The Night Before Larry Was Stretched" (or "De Nite Afore Larry Was Stretched" -- occasionally the original version does make it into print, but more common is the heavily Anglicised version). Thomas Mount, just before he was executed in Rhode Island in 1791, dictated the following song from memory: A Song made by a Flash Cove the Evening before his Execution. My blowen came here t'other night, She fetch'd us a jorum of diddle, To the prisoners it gave great delight, And we hopp'd it away to the fiddle. But our trade of diving doth fail, My blowen has chang'd habitations; For now she pads in the gaol, And laughs at the flats of the nation. But at length the dull-gown's-man comes in And tips me soft tales of repentance, When on him I do cast my brow, I care not one fig for his sentence. By th' gullet I'll be ty'd very tight To-morrow:-my blowen pray for us, My peepers will be hid from the light, The tumbler shoves off, so I morris. So it goes ... Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:20:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of "El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to himself rather than the "real" Matador. The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world of the professional ritual of Death! Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the reappearance of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring insures repeat performances. One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality and turn it into their own personal mythology. El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of ritual, of the organized meanings and practices of Death. El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real life robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the keepers of the gates of the Real. Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world around him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of Simic's status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac worked with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane speeds. "Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he said, while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with Death and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he "discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to present his "book movie, the original American form." The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" works of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far over into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which translated means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of Duluoz, to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the "crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous examples is "Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to work at their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. Yet when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive work to display at all. The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the dusty floor a perfect circle. Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the most disciplined "craft" in Italy. On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a series of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in the Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating book on the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The Little Cigar Store Girl.) Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. The same thing can be done in music and film, video studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the "spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of spontaneity? The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word "momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being "momently" and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather than "of the moment." And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is "momently" how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a concern with "spontaneity." That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of any concern to Simic? El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the Corrida and its ritual of Death. El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which both ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and what his ideas on these lines are. I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to speak, this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of "poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their ultimate extremes in his country of origin. All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree 100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" alien, not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the "right" humans. I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very interesting and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer understanding of what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as "spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy Land and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in the first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" which are older than Aristotle's. Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?" Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of, one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob, Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. That is why, again, I return to the question of spontaneity. Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which even in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word 'Culture," I reach for my revolver." "Culture" meaning someone else's idea of it--not one's own, to be sure. Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random with a revolver. One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of "poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out for oneself as Olson would say. "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. (By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they would not only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that buying and reading are meant to be"=". Heck, I read a huge number of books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any rate, there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:21:31 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new from above/ground - peter f yacht club #8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The Peter F Yacht Club #8 Edited & compiled & typeset & paid for by rob mclennan October 2007 (Edmonton issue) With new work by various Yacht Club regulars & irregulars: Stephen Brockwell Marita Dachsel Amanda Earl Jesse Ferguson Laurie Fuhr Clare Latremouille Nicholas Lea Roland Prevost Marcus McCann rob mclennan Jonathan Meakin Max Middle Carla Milo Paul Pearson Monty Reid Sandra Ridley Christine Stewart for a copy, give $5 to rob mclennan; above/ground press subscribers rec' a complimentary copy; payable to rob mclennan c/o 858 Somerset Street West, main floor, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7; or find him either around the U of A Campus, at the ottawa international writers festival, or the ottawa small press book fair on October 27! The Peter F. Yacht Club, issue #8; irregular (very) writers group publication. Edited & compiled & typeset & paid for by rob mclennan in Edmonton, at the University of Alberta. Previous issues still available (possibly) at $5 each. Issue #1, August 2003, edited by rob mclennan; Issue #2, April 2004, edited by Anita Dolman (out of print); Issue #3, September 2004, edited by Peter Norman and Melanie Little; Issue #4, September 2005, edited by rob mclennan; Issue #5, April 2006, edited by Max Middle; Issue #6 (mis-numbered Calgary special), February 2007, edited by Laurie Fuhr; Issue #7, April 2007, writers festival special, edited by rob mclennan. http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2007/10/peter-f-yacht-club-8-edited-compiled.html -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:04:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Foetry & Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier Comments: To: signupz@bluehole.org In-Reply-To: <470A6199.8080807@bluehole.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Quote: "I hope people will consider his family, even if you disagree with his words." So, does Foetry do this for those it "targets"? -Ryan On 10/8/07, signupz wrote: > > Dear Chris, > > Perhaps libelous would be a better word than careless. > > And rather than acknowledging this major mistake on the part of > Baratier, you twice question whether I am "indeed" Monday Love. ML has > an actual name and it's available on the forum. I choose not to use it > because he was outed against his will, just as I was. ML has a poet > wife (as do I) and he has young children. I would not want him and his > family to suffer the nastiness I've been subjected to in the past two > years. I hope people will consider his family, even if you disagree > with his words. > > Thank you, > Alan > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > Dear Alan Cordle--- > > > > David Baratier's post does not seem "completely careless" to me... > > If, indeed, you are not "Monday Love," then maybe David's post is > > slightly careless for not making it clear that you're not this person > > (if indeed you aren't) > > Also, why do you use the term "self-righteously denounce" to describe > > Baratier's letter? > > Baratier is doing no more than defending himself and trying to set the > > record straight after having himself been 'denounced' in a piece of > > writing sanctioned by Foetry--even if you yourself didn't write it. > > (oh, we could debate on whether Foetry's denunciation of Baratier's > > work is 'self-righteous' I suppose or simply 'righteous'-- > > but it's certainly a denunciation, and one based on innuendo and > > spurious allegations). > > > > Oh, and for the sake of full-disclosure, here as well, before you do > > any more research, > > yes, my first full-length book of poetry, back in 1994, was the first > > book Pavement Saw Press published > > (the book is now out of print now, and, no, it was not supported by > > any taxpayer's cream), > > but this is not the reason I'm defending David against Foetry's > > accusations > > and I'm open to the possible usefulness of Foetry as a kind of > > 'watchdog' I suppose, > > but in this case, there's more than enough evidence to support > > Baratier's counter claims > > and nothing but conjecture to support those posted by Foetry (even if > > not by you personally). > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Alan Cordle wrote: > > > >> Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier > >> > >> October 5th, 2007 by alan > >> > >> In recent research I've been conducting, I came across the following > >> post > >> on the Poetics listserv out of Buffalo. It's from David Baratier of > >> Pavement Saw Press, from April of this year. > >> > >> It frustrates me to see someone so self-righteously denounce > >> Foetry.com's > >> work, particularly in light of the fact that I did not write _one > >> word_ of > >> the paragraph he attributed to me. Another forum member, Monday Love, > >> wrote it. Baratier was completely careless in this post. And no, I'm > not > >> against all contests either. And I'm pro Monday Love too. > >> > >> Thank you for allowing me to correct the record. > >> > >> Alan Cordle > >> founder of Foetry.com > >> > >> =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=96 > >> > >> Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:35:21 -0700 > >> Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org > >> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group > >> From: David Baratier > >> Subject: Agni needs a spine > >> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1The > >> situation > >> with foetry affects all of us. It is apparent from my > >> interactions with foetry that Alan Cordle is against all contests, > >> even an > >> honest one. Foetry first went after me insinuating that I > >> appeared in the > >> Denver Quarterly because I had Bin Ramke as a judge. That statemen= t > >> sat on > >> their site for many months even after the timeline was shown to > >> them that > >> proved that the accusation was false. I am not sure why we were > >> brought > >> onto their site except for an apparent need of Cordle to attack > >> Ramke and > >> anyone who used him as a judge. The passage below written by > >> Cordle is > >> yet > >> another instance of his making things up without evidence: > >> =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97- Let's see. Please tell me if I got anyth= ing > >> wrong. David Baratier's letters and poems have appeared in the > >> Denver > >> Quarterly, editor Bin Ramke, professor, University of Denver. > >> Baratier is > >> editor of Pavement Saw Press, in Ohio, which gets money from Ohio > >> taxpayers in order to establish, according to Pavement Saw Press's > >> mission > >> statement, a "non-university affiliated press" which helps Ohio's > >> economy > >> by attracting outside attention and publishing "works of national > >> signifiance." Dana Curtis, Ph.D. University of Denver, wins > >> Pavement Saw > >> Press Prize, picked by Ramke. Curtis is founder & editor-in-chief > of > >> Elixir Press, based in Denver. Jake Adam York, director of creativ= e > >> writing, University of Colorado at Denver, and Colorado Council > >> on the > >> Arts fellow, wins Elixir Press Prize. Sounds to me like > >> university-affiliated Denver is the cat and the Ohio taxpayers > >> are the > >> cream. It looks like, so far at least, there's a nice little Denve= r > >> system > >> in place here. Very nice. =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97= =97=97- > >> Ok, Back to my side again The above written by Cordle is a total > >> fabrication. York and Curtis didn't know each other in fact, at > >> the time > >> Dana was in Minneapolis, not Denver I did not know Bin except for > >> asking > >> him to judge the contest and I asked him because I called to find > >> out if > >> they were going to run a interview I did with Simon Perchik (which > >> appeared as a feature in an early issue of Jacket) and while he > >> was on > >> the > >> line I asked if he would be interested. I'll just stop here. The > >> whole > >> thing is starting to bother me again. Our contest is blind > >> judged, the > >> manuscripts are stripped of the name and publication credits, if > >> we can > >> afford a judge, the judge is sent 25 manuscripts out of all > >> recieved. If > >> not I end up judging the batch I am sent back from the readers. > >> If I am > >> able to afford publishing two books (1000 run each) from the > >> entries I > >> do. > >> Then we pay to mail everyone at least their entry fee worth of > >> books we > >> have published. I think we run one of the fairest contests there > >> is, I > >> challenged Cordle to come up with a place that did better. I am > >> still > >> waiting. Anyway, my experience is that we would have something > false > >> written about us with no evidence, and once that material > >> appeared on the > >> foetry website it became my job to "prove him wrong." I should als= o > >> mention that Levine is one of our authors. And that (for the > record, > >> as to > >> avoid more wild speculation) his book won our contest before > >> Tupelo was > >> publishing. I also do not see why Levine being accused of a > >> problem with > >> the way he runs his press should affect the acceptance of his > >> poems into > >> journals. This is heading into an ugly direction, what is next? > >> Will AGNI > >> apologize about publishing poems if a poet is accused of running a > >> red-light? Maybe AGNI should apologize for all of the poems they > >> publish > >> until they get a spine. Considering the student teacher problems > >> with > >> poetry awards and with contests who have chosen a winner > >> beforehand, my > >> amazement with Cordle is how inflated he is over the little he has > >> revealed. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO > >> Box 6291 > >> Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:33:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is quite a display, David, my goodness. Suspect part of 'the argument' against the 'spontaneous' emerges from identifying the "spontaneous" with no training, no skills, etc., and consequently 'primitive' (another word used for various kinds of ethnic abuse and condescension). Which makes me remember recording what are sometimes called "Praise Singers" in a remote area of eastern Nigeria (then Ogoja Province). The singer could sing and boast in several languages (Ogjoja, Pidgin, Italian, 'official English', multiple neighboring tribes). In reference to spontaneity, I remember him boast of his gifts for improvisation: ...Gentility without ability Calls me a drunkard... When we asked what was the advantage of singing in several languages, he responded in what I thought was a brilliant counter-ethnocentric answer: ...the more languages with which I can sing, the further the story (song) will travel... He knew he was good and wanted to be heard, and have his songs celebrated everywhere. (In reference to poems built on what superficially appear to be non-sense sounds). Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ David Chirot wrote: In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of "El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to himself rather than the "real" Matador. The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world of the professional ritual of Death! Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the reappearance of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring insures repeat performances. One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality and turn it into their own personal mythology. El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of ritual, of the organized meanings and practices of Death. El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real life robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the keepers of the gates of the Real. Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world around him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of Simic's status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac worked with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane speeds. "Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he said, while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with Death and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he "discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to present his "book movie, the original American form." The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" works of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far over into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which translated means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of Duluoz, to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the "crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous examples is "Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to work at their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. Yet when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive work to display at all. The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the dusty floor a perfect circle. Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the most disciplined "craft" in Italy. On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a series of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in the Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating book on the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The Little Cigar Store Girl.) Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. The same thing can be done in music and film, video studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the "spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of spontaneity? The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word "momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being "momently" and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather than "of the moment." And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is "momently" how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a concern with "spontaneity." That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of any concern to Simic? El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the Corrida and its ritual of Death. El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which both ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and what his ideas on these lines are. I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to speak, this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of "poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their ultimate extremes in his country of origin. All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree 100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" alien, not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the "right" humans. I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very interesting and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer understanding of what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as "spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy Land and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in the first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" which are older than Aristotle's. Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?" Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of, one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob, Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. That is why, again, I return to the question of spontaneity. Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which even in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word 'Culture," I reach for my revolver." "Culture" meaning someone else's idea of it--not one's own, to be sure. Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random with a revolver. One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of "poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out for oneself as Olson would say. "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. (By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they would not only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that buying and reading are meant to be"=". Heck, I read a huge number of books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any rate, there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:50:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell. Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Death-Knell. Or Death Knell. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/weekinreview/07mcgrath.html By CHARLES McGRATH Published: October 7, 2007 THE Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, the scaled-down, two-volume =20 version of the mammoth 20-volume O.E.D., just got a little shorter. =20 With the dispatch of a waiter flicking away flyspecks, the editor, =20 Angus Stevenson, eliminated some 16,000 hyphens from the sixth =20 edition, published last month. =93People are not confident about using =20= hyphens anymore,=94 he said. =93They=92re not really sure what they=92re = for.=94 Skip to next paragraph Ellen Lupton The dictionary is not dropping all hyphens. The ones in certain =20 compounds remain (=93well-being,=94 for example), as do those indicating = =20 a word break at the right-hand margin =97 the use for which this =20 versatile little punctuation mark, a variation on the slash, the all-=20 purpose medieval punctuation, was invented in the first place. What=92s getting the heave are most hyphens linking the halves of a =20 compound noun. Some, like =93ice cream,=94 =93fig leaf,=94 =93hobby = horse=94 and =20 =93water bed,=94 have been fractured into two words, while many others, =20= like =93 bumblebee,=94 =93crybaby=94 and =93pigeonhole,=94 have been = squeezed =20 into one. That =93ice cream=94 and =93bumblebee=94 ever had hyphens to begin with =20= suggests an excess of fussiness on the part of older lexicographers, =20 and may explain some of Mr. Stevenson=92s annoyance. The issue of =20 proper hyphenation has always been vexing for the Brits, far more =20 than it is for us, and occasioned perhaps the single crankiest =20 article in Fowler=92s =93Dictionary of Modern English Usage,=94 first =20= published in 1926. =93The chaos prevailing among writers or printers or both regarding the =20= use of hyphens is discreditable to English education,=94 he began, and =20= about halfway through he threw up his hands and said of the examples =20 he had been citing, =93the evidence they afford=94 is =93that common = sense =20 is in fact far from common.=94 Fowler was in favor of hyphens. They sprinkle his own text like =20 dandruff and, along with his fetish for the ampersand, give it a =20 musty, old-fashioned look. This is why designers hate to see hyphens =20 flecking the page, and indeed they are antique, unnecessary marks in =20 many instances. But that=92s also part of their appeal. They=92re records of how the =20 language changes, and in the old days, before the Shorter Oxford got =20 into the sundering business, they indicated a sort of halfway point, =20 a way station in the progress of a new usage. Two terms get linked =20 together =97 =93tiddly-wink,=94 let=92s say, or =93cell-phone=94 =97 and = then over =20 time that little hitch is eroded, worn away by familiarity. In a few =20 years, for example, people will be amused to discover that email used =20= to be e-mail. The greatest hyphenator ever was Shakespeare (or Shak-speare in some =20 contemporary spellings) because he was so busy adding new words, many =20= of them compounds, to English: =93sea-change,=94 =93leap-frog,=94 =93bare-= =20 faced,=94 =93fancy-free.=94 Milton also hyphenated a lot (=93dew-drops,=94= =93man-=20 slaughter,=94 =93eye-sight=94) and so did Donne, who loved compounds = like =20 =93death-bed=94 and =93passing-bell,=94 where the hyphen carries almost =20= metaphorical weight, a reminder of what Eliot called his singular =20 talent for yoking unlike ideas. At the other end of the spectrum is E. E. Cummings, who turned his =20 back on not just the hyphen but punctuation in general, and in this =20 respect was way ahead of his time. Cummings wrote back in the age of =20 real type, but looked forward to what might be called the =20 sanserification of print: the way our computer versions of type are =20 dropping all the little vestiges of metal fonts =97 the serifs, or =20 pleasing little curves and points jutting out from a letter in =20 traditional fonts, and, for that matter, the hyphen, the comma, the =20 quotation mark. Our print, once a replica of hand-lettering, now =20 aspires to the condition of the computer screen and the text message. Even Mr. Stevenson puts in a good word for the hyphen especially =20 beloved by grammarians and so vexing to civilians, the one that turns =20= a noun phrase into a compound adjective. A slippery-eel salesman, for =20= example, sells slippery eels, while a slippery eel salesman takes =20 your money and slinks away. Textbooks used to be full of examples like these (English-language =20 lessons and English language lessons; an odd-looking glass and an odd =20= looking glass) but except in places like The New Yorker, which =20 punctiliously hyphenates all such phrases, ambiguous or not, this =20 useful, elegant hyphen has become a nicety, resorted to only in cases =20= of extreme confusion and sometimes not even then. Most of the time =20 we=92re not troubled, either because we=92re good at figuring things out = =20 (a high school student is most likely someone attending secondary =20 school rather than a pupil puffing a joint) or because we no longer =20 pay much attention to punctuation to begin with. In many cases the hyphen is probably an affectation =97 like wearing =20 spats, say. And if Mr. Stevenson is right about the general confusion =20= over hyphen usage, a lot of us were putting on our spats improperly. =20 We wore them with Bermuda shorts, so to speak. But they did look =20 pretty good sometimes =97 spiffy and genteel =97 and gave our prose an =20= extra strut. We may feel a little under-dressed =97 underdressed, =20 rather =97 without them.= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:30:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Davey Volner Subject: Times Book Review, Tucker on Wiman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Amicus curiae brief in the case of Simic v. Creeley: Calling Charles Simic revanchist seems like tail chasing if you have a look at today's review of Christian Wiman's book of essays "Ambition and Survival" in the Times. Here's a poet who can't recognize flies in milk, or the difference between John Ashbery and Jorie Graham, who he casually lumps together and calls "airless". Ken Tucker gets in a couple nice passes and damns Wiman with faint praise: "I wish him the best life he can have." Simic, whose work is so often playful and improvisatory and who doesn't properly belong to any camp, much less a quietist or a classicizing one, is getting keelhauled; Wiman is editor at Poetry magazine and actively proselytizes against experiment, abstraction, invention, and the whole project of modernism in poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:16:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "believe that anything is possible w/". Rest of header flushed. From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Fri 10/12 w/ Joseph Bradshaw & Ken Rumble @ The Fall C af=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jose= The Burning Chair Readings=0Abelieve that anything is possible w/=0A=0AJose= ph Bradshaw & Ken Rmble=0A=0AFriday, October 12th, 7:30 PM=0AThe Fall Caf= =E9=0A307 Smith Street=0Abtwn. Union & President=0ACarroll Gardens, Brookly= n=0AF/G to Carroll StreetJoseph Bradshaw was born in Caldwell, Idaho, and g= rew up up and down the west coast. From 2002 to 2006 he co-edited FO(A)RM M= agazine and co-curated the Spare Room reading series in Portland. A chapboo= k, The Way Birds Become, was recently published by Weather Press. His poetr= y and reviews can be found in current or forthcoming issues of Cannibal, Cu= ltural Society, Denver Quarterly, Jacket, Mirage #4 / Period(ical), and els= ewhere. He currently lives in Iowa City, that hotbed of literary puke.Ken R= umble is the author of Key Bridge (Carolina=0AWren Press, 2007) and marketi= ng director of the Green Hill Center for North=0ACarolina Art. He is curre= ntly working=0Aon a book with his father about the earth's atmosphere &=0AA= ntarctica. His poems have been published in Parakeet, Cutbank,=0AFascicle,= Typo, Octopus, XConnect, Coconut, and others.=0A=0A=0A=0A ___________= _________________________________________________________________________= =0ADon't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Aut= os.=0Ahttp://autos.yahoo.com/index.html=0A =0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:39:02 -0400 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Buuck Subject: Berkeley O Books reading: War & Peace 3 - Fri 10/12 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A reading to launch/celebrate the publication of War and Peace 3: The Future Friday, Oct. 12th, 7pm Moe's Books 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley (510) 849-2087 Readers will include: David Buuck, Brandon Brown, Stephen Ratcliffe, Dana Teen Lomax, David Brazil, Leslie Scalapino, Yuri Herrera, M. Mara-Ann, and Judith Goldman. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:40:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Foetry & Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier In-Reply-To: <9778b8630710081104p6f2305bbwa1676397db54ca9b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable What difference can it possibly make? We're talking about poetry here. Is= there any danger someone's kid is going to be mocked on the playground, or= someone's wife is going to be shunned at the grocery, or someone's husband= is in danger of being kicked out of Kiwanis because of a post to a poetry = email list? Keep some sense of perspective, for goodness's sake. No one cares about this stuff except the people signed up to this and some other lists and a = few bulletin boards. M On 8 Oct 2007 at 14:04, Ryan Daley wrote: > Quote: > > "I hope people will consider his family, even if you disagree > with his words." > > So, does Foetry do this for those it "targets"? > > -Ryan > > On 10/8/07, signupz wrote: > > > > Dear Chris, > > > > Perhaps libelous would be a better word than careless. > > > > And rather than acknowledging this major mistake on the part of > > Baratier, you twice question whether I am "indeed" Monday Love. > ML has > > an actual name and it's available on the forum. I choose not to > use it > > because he was outed against his will, just as I was. ML has a > poet > > wife (as do I) and he has young children. I would not want him > and his > > family to suffer the nastiness I've been subjected to in the past > two > > years. I hope people will consider his family, even if you > disagree > > with his words. > > > > Thank you, > > Alan > > > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > > Dear Alan Cordle--- > > > > > > David Baratier's post does not seem "completely careless" to > me... > > > If, indeed, you are not "Monday Love," then maybe David's post > is > > > slightly careless for not making it clear that you're not this > person > > > (if indeed you aren't) > > > Also, why do you use the term "self-righteously denounce" to > describe > > > Baratier's letter? > > > Baratier is doing no more than defending himself and trying to > set the > > > record straight after having himself been 'denounced' in a piece > of > > > writing sanctioned by Foetry--even if you yourself didn't write > it. > > > (oh, we could debate on whether Foetry's denunciation of > Baratier's > > > work is 'self-righteous' I suppose or simply 'righteous'-- > > > but it's certainly a denunciation, and one based on innuendo > and > > > spurious allegations). > > > > > > Oh, and for the sake of full-disclosure, here as well, before > you do > > > any more research, > > > yes, my first full-length book of poetry, back in 1994, was the > first > > > book Pavement Saw Press published > > > (the book is now out of print now, and, no, it was not supported > by > > > any taxpayer's cream), > > > but this is not the reason I'm defending David against > Foetry's > > > accusations > > > and I'm open to the possible usefulness of Foetry as a kind of > > > 'watchdog' I suppose, > > > but in this case, there's more than enough evidence to support > > > Baratier's counter claims > > > and nothing but conjecture to support those posted by Foetry > (even if > > > not by you personally). > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Alan Cordle wrote: > > > > > >> Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier > > >> > > >> October 5th, 2007 by alan > > >> > > >> In recent research I've been conducting, I came across the > following > > >> post > > >> on the Poetics listserv out of Buffalo. It's from David > Baratier of > > >> Pavement Saw Press, from April of this year. > > >> > > >> It frustrates me to see someone so self-righteously denounce > > >> Foetry.com's > > >> work, particularly in light of the fact that I did not write > _one > > >> word_ of > > >> the paragraph he attributed to me. Another forum member, Monday > Love, > > >> wrote it. Baratier was completely careless in this post. And > no, I'm > > not > > >> against all contests either. And I'm pro Monday Love too. > > >> > > >> Thank you for allowing me to correct the record. > > >> > > >> Alan Cordle > > >> founder of Foetry.com > > >> > > >> ----------- > > >> > > >> Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:35:21 -0700 > > >> Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org > > >> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group > > >> From: David Baratier > > >> Subject: Agni needs a spine > > >> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3Diso-8859-1The > > >> situation > > >> with foetry affects all of us. It is apparent from my > > >> interactions with foetry that Alan Cordle is against all > contests, > > >> even an > > >> honest one. Foetry first went after me insinuating that I > > >> appeared in the > > >> Denver Quarterly because I had Bin Ramke as a judge. That > statement > > >> sat on > > >> their site for many months even after the timeline was > shown to > > >> them that > > >> proved that the accusation was false. I am not sure why we > were > > >> brought > > >> onto their site except for an apparent need of Cordle to > attack > > >> Ramke and > > >> anyone who used him as a judge. The passage below written > by > > >> Cordle is > > >> yet > > >> another instance of his making things up without > evidence: > > >> --------- Let's see. Please tell me if I got anything > > >> wrong. David Baratier's letters and poems have appeared in > the > > >> Denver > > >> Quarterly, editor Bin Ramke, professor, University of > Denver. > > >> Baratier is > > >> editor of Pavement Saw Press, in Ohio, which gets money > from Ohio > > >> taxpayers in order to establish, according to Pavement Saw > Press's > > >> mission > > >> statement, a "non-university affiliated press" which helps > Ohio's > > >> economy > > >> by attracting outside attention and publishing "works of > national > > >> signifiance." Dana Curtis, Ph.D. University of Denver, > wins > > >> Pavement Saw > > >> Press Prize, picked by Ramke. Curtis is founder & > editor-in-chief > > of > > >> Elixir Press, based in Denver. Jake Adam York, director of > creative > > >> writing, University of Colorado at Denver, and Colorado > Council > > >> on the > > >> Arts fellow, wins Elixir Press Prize. Sounds to me like > > >> university-affiliated Denver is the cat and the Ohio > taxpayers > > >> are the > > >> cream. It looks like, so far at least, there's a nice > little Denver > > >> system > > >> in place here. Very nice. ---------------- > > >> Ok, Back to my side again The above written by Cordle is a > total > > >> fabrication. York and Curtis didn't know each other in > fact, at > > >> the time > > >> Dana was in Minneapolis, not Denver I did not know Bin > except for > > >> asking > > >> him to judge the contest and I asked him because I called > to find > > >> out if > > >> they were going to run a interview I did with Simon Perchik > (which > > >> appeared as a feature in an early issue of Jacket) and > while he > > >> was on > > >> the > > >> line I asked if he would be interested. I'll just stop > here. The > > >> whole > > >> thing is starting to bother me again. Our contest is > blind > > >> judged, the > > >> manuscripts are stripped of the name and publication > credits, if > > >> we can > > >> afford a judge, the judge is sent 25 manuscripts out of > all > > >> recieved. If > > >> not I end up judging the batch I am sent back from the > readers. > > >> If I am > > >> able to afford publishing two books (1000 run each) from > the > > >> entries I > > >> do. > > >> Then we pay to mail everyone at least their entry fee worth > of > > >> books we > > >> have published. I think we run one of the fairest contests > there > > >> is, I > > >> challenged Cordle to come up with a place that did better. > I am > > >> still > > >> waiting. Anyway, my experience is that we would have > something > > false > > >> written about us with no evidence, and once that material > > >> appeared on the > > >> foetry website it became my job to "prove him wrong." I > should also > > >> mention that Levine is one of our authors. And that (for > the > > record, > > >> as to > > >> avoid more wild speculation) his book won our contest > before > > >> Tupelo was > > >> publishing. I also do not see why Levine being accused of > a > > >> problem with > > >> the way he runs his press should affect the acceptance of > his > > >> poems into > > >> journals. This is heading into an ugly direction, what is > next? > > >> Will AGNI > > >> apologize about publishing poems if a poet is accused of > running a > > >> red-light? Maybe AGNI should apologize for all of the poems > they > > >> publish > > >> until they get a spine. Considering the student teacher > problems > > >> with > > >> poetry awards and with contests who have chosen a winner > > >> beforehand, my > > >> amazement with Cordle is how inflated he is over the little > he has > > >> revealed. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press > PO > > >> Box 6291 > > >> Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.4/1057 - Release Date: > 10/8/2007 9:04 AM > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 15:42:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways,=20 not least the starkness of the opposition you put=20 forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking=20 about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed=20 response. One point I think does need making.=20 Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic=20 games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be=20 that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read=20 Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It=20 is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all the=20 layerings of meaning in any but your native=20 tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition=20 of a native ear for all the subtlties of language=20 and dialect is very rare after early childhood.=20 One can write very well in the acquired language,=20 of course, without that degree of awareness of=20 the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on=20 the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a=20 largely English-speaking environment since his=20 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and=20 virtually flawless, and barely accented.=20 Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like=20 the depth of awareness of English that he has of=20 Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the=20 nuances of a Spanish word and the English=20 approximations I planned to use, and he was=20 usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to=20 confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and=20 Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was=20 decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its=20 formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue=20 the least subtle effects--those he or she can=20 hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan=20 Thomas, for example, is much more popular among=20 Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and=20 Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones=20 than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As=20 to Kerouac, his early separation from English was=20 nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as=20 Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's=20 going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US=20 poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of native= speakers. Mark At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of >"El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an >aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some >passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to >himself rather than the "real" Matador. > The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world >of the professional ritual of Death! > Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and >keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the reappearance >of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El >Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring >insures repeat performances. > One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality >and turn it into their own personal mythology. > El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the >confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the >encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of ritual, >of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with >windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real life >robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights >who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the >keepers of the gates of the Real. > > Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody >against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue >from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket >notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the >worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done >with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world around >him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s >sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual >language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language >speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of Simic's >status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac worked >with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. >Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" >qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many >volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane speeds. >"Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he said, >while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." > As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in >the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with Death >and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and >continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that >even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the >publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of >Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he >"discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted >the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to >present his "book movie, the original American form." > The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published >novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in >standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate >generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter >with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" works >of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." > Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far over >into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete >edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's >Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English >language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop >prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" >orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which translated >means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the >future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to >return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of Duluoz, >to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free >Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not >like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at > through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical >forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able >to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the >"crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous examples is >"Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, >exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to work at >their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all >showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. Yet >when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive >work to display at all. > The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show >you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the >dusty floor a perfect circle. > Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges >were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for >his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the >most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > > On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which >seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" >compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging >like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made >up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. > Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one >can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a series >of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through >deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to >use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in the >Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating book on >the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the >course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The >Little Cigar Store Girl.) > Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous >outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F >Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of >drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also >demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. > The same thing can be done in music and film, video >studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be >experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring >spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series >of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." > The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a >much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the >"spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of >composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of >spontaneity? > The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di >Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word >"momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much >glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be >sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being "momently" >and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather >than "of the moment." > And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is "momently" >how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a concern >with "spontaneity." > That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of any >concern to Simic? > El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic >character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of >being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice >whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional >Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of >course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the >ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of >afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another >deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the Corrida >and its ritual of Death. > El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, >having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening >in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the >Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to >be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact >been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another >form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk >and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein >foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which both >ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of >competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and >differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the >soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is >not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more >interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of >the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to >demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is >being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to >pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of >spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in >relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and what >his ideas on these lines are. > I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to speak, >this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of >"poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of >Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to >actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the >current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading >desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays >to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic >identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is >possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their >ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of >ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's >thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree >100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of >course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" alien, >not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right >to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the >"right" humans. > I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and >forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very interesting >and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself >for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer understanding of >what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as >"spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling >epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy Land >and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in the >first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" which >are older than Aristotle's. > Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?" > Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing >one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in >the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's >own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of, >one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before >confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob, >Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of >persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, >speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and >banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of >higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If >one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably >before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > That is why, again, I return to the question of spontaneity. >Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk >reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which even >in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play >employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word 'Culture," >I reach for my revolver." > "Culture" meaning someone else's idea=20 > of it--not one's own, to be sure. > Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the >spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect >Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random >with a revolver. > One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of >"poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out >for oneself as Olson would say. > "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > >(By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the >article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly >disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they would not >only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even >read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that >buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge number of >books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any rate, >there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:55:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Times Book Review, Tucker on Wiman In-Reply-To: <67dec99a0710081030v73c4033bw5c80a8be969e0e9d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gosh, not to cast more ill into the world, after reading this review of Wiman's essays, I almost have to bite my tongue to keep from making comparisons with Judge Clarence Thomas (the bigoted, reactionary, angry person that emerges in the Justice's new autobiography)!! Wiman's dismissal of anything written without metric form, suspense and closure seems otherworldly! (With all respect to the great ones in this modern field, say Thom Gunn). Combined with his hostile, disparaging sense of the exclusion of much else. He strikes me as the exemplar of the contemporary Gated, i.e., insular, community But, going back to Thomas, Wiman, similarly, strikes me as a 'strict-constitutionalist' when it comes to what is permitted. The history of poetry - modernism, post-modernism, etc et al - is not about to clutter Wiman's palette! Let's not even imagine the issue of politics, Well, if not Wiman, somebody else would be doing the job - and, for comfort, 'without polarities, no progression'. So we should be thankful!! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Davey Volner wrote: Amicus curiae brief in the case of Simic v. Creeley: Calling Charles Simic revanchist seems like tail chasing if you have a look at today's review of Christian Wiman's book of essays "Ambition and Survival" in the Times. Here's a poet who can't recognize flies in milk, or the difference between John Ashbery and Jorie Graham, who he casually lumps together and calls "airless". Ken Tucker gets in a couple nice passes and damns Wiman with faint praise: "I wish him the best life he can have." Simic, whose work is so often playful and improvisatory and who doesn't properly belong to any camp, much less a quietist or a classicizing one, is getting keelhauled; Wiman is editor at Poetry magazine and actively proselytizes against experiment, abstraction, invention, and the whole project of modernism in poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:13:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell. In-Reply-To: <866099AA-FC9F-4544-9A22-E6C1DC6BEEBB@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" This was a charming article, mIEKAL...thanks for sharing...it's fun to watch= the great coral reefs erode and grow,=C2=A0swale or bosom to new=C2=A0shape= s, in a living language...although some things are bound to irk...I wonder h= ow long it will be before the distinction of objective case=C2=A0"me" (esp.=20= as the object of a prepositional phrase)=C2=A0is eroded by the bazillion peo= ple who put the nominative "I" there...often when they are in a state of piq= ue or high dudgeon...did you notice that phenomenon?...they bristle and thei= r hackles rise into little simulacra of the letter "I" which suddenly appear= s in phrases like..."That was between her and I!!"=C2=A0=C2=A0It's almost a=20= convention of the outraged=C2=A0now.=C2=A0Of course such a moment=C2=A0is NO= T the time to broach the subject of solecisms (esp. if you are a=C2=A0copiou= s bleeder) though it might quickly rise uppermost over even whatever dispute= occasioned the ejaculation. But it's not=C2=A0only in those instances, alth= ough most funny then...more and more I hear this in discourse often accorded= =C2=A0prestige...movies otherwise well-written or pundits on t.v....no one s= eems to know the distinction anymore, so I'd say it's just a matter of time=20= before that goes the way of so many other rules...maybe a hundred years or s= o until the "correct" people are wrong"...strange dodos, those precisians... -----Original Message----- From: mIEKAL aND To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 2:50 pm Subject: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell. Death-Knell. Or Death Knell.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/weekinreview/07mcgrath.html=C2=A0 =C2=A0 By CHARLES McGRATH=C2=A0 Published: October 7, 2007=C2=A0 =C2=A0 THE Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, the scaled-down, two-volume version o= f the mammoth 20-volume O.E.D., just got a little shorter. With the dispatch= of a waiter flicking away flyspecks, the editor, Angus Stevenson, eliminate= d some 16,000 hyphens from the sixth edition, published last month. =E2=80= =9CPeople are not confident about using hyphens anymore,=E2=80=9D he said.=20= =E2=80=9CThey=E2=80=99re not really sure what they=E2=80=99re for.=E2=80=9D= =C2=A0 Skip to next paragraph=C2=A0 Ellen Lupton=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The dictionary is not dropping all hyphens. The ones in certain compounds re= main (=E2=80=9Cwell-being,=E2=80=9D for example), as do those indicating a w= ord break at the right-hand margin =E2=80=94 the use for which this versatil= e little punctuation mark, a variation on the slash, the all-purpose medieva= l punctuation, was invented in the first place.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 What=E2=80=99s getting the heave are most hyphens linking the halves of a co= mpound noun. Some, like =E2=80=9Cice cream,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cfig leaf,=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=9Chobby horse=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwater bed,=E2=80=9D have b= een fractured into two words, while many others, like =E2=80=9C bumblebee,= =E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ccrybaby=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cpigeonhole,=E2=80=9D have b= een squeezed into one.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That =E2=80=9Cice cream=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cbumblebee=E2=80=9D ever had hy= phens to begin with suggests an excess of fussiness on the part of older lex= icographers, and may explain some of Mr. Stevenson=E2=80=99s annoyance. The=20= issue of proper hyphenation has always been vexing for the Brits, far more t= han it is for us, and occasioned perhaps the single crankiest article in Fow= ler=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CDictionary of Modern English Usage,=E2=80=9D first pu= blished in 1926.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9CThe chaos prevailing among writers or printers or both regarding th= e use of hyphens is discreditable to English education,=E2=80=9D he began, a= nd about halfway through he threw up his hands and said of the examples he h= ad been citing, =E2=80=9Cthe evidence they afford=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9Cthat=20= common sense is in fact far from common.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Fowler was in favor of hyphens. They sprinkle his own text like dandruff and= , along with his fetish for the ampersand, give it a musty, old-fashioned lo= ok. This is why designers hate to see hyphens flecking the page, and indeed=20= they are antique, unnecessary marks in many instances.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But that=E2=80=99s also part of their appeal. They=E2=80=99re records of how= the language changes, and in the old days, before the Shorter Oxford got in= to the sundering business, they indicated a sort of halfway point, a way sta= tion in the progress of a new usage. Two terms get linked together =E2=80= =94 =E2=80=9Ctiddly-wink,=E2=80=9D let=E2=80=99s say, or =E2=80=9Ccell-phone= =E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 and then over time that little hitch is eroded, worn awa= y by familiarity. In a few years, for example, people will be amused to disc= over that email used to be e-mail.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The greatest hyphenator ever was Shakespeare (or Shak-speare in some contemp= orary spellings) because he was so busy adding new words, many of them compo= unds, to English: =E2=80=9Csea-change,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cleap-frog,=E2=80= =9D =E2=80=9Cbare-faced,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cfancy-free.=E2=80=9D Milton also=20= hyphenated a lot (=E2=80=9Cdew-drops,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cman-slaughter,=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=9Ceye-sight=E2=80=9D) and so did Donne, who loved compounds li= ke =E2=80=9Cdeath-bed=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cpassing-bell,=E2=80=9D where the= hyphen carries almost metaphorical weight, a reminder of what Eliot called=20= his singular talent for yoking unlike ideas.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 At the other end of the spectrum is E. E. Cummings, who turned his back on n= ot just the hyphen but punctuation in general, and in this respect was way a= head of his time. Cummings wrote back in the age of real type, but looked fo= rward to what might be called the sanserification of print: the way our comp= uter versions of type are dropping all the little vestiges of metal fonts=20= =E2=80=94 the serifs, or pleasing little curves and points jutting out from=20= a letter in traditional fonts, and, for that matter, the hyphen, the comma,=20= the quotation mark. Our print, once a replica of hand-lettering, now aspires= to the condition of the computer screen and the text message.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Even Mr. Stevenson puts in a good word for the hyphen especially beloved by=20= grammarians and so vexing to civilians, the one that turns a noun phrase int= o a compound adjective. A slippery-eel salesman, for example, sells slippery= eels, while a slippery eel salesman takes your money and slinks away.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Textbooks used to be full of examples like these (English-language lessons a= nd English language lessons; an odd-looking glass and an odd looking glass)=20= but except in places like The New Yorker, which punctiliously hyphenates all= such phrases, ambiguous or not, this useful, elegant hyphen has become a ni= cety, resorted to only in cases of extreme confusion and sometimes not even=20= then. Most of the time we=E2=80=99re not troubled, either because we=E2=80= =99re good at figuring things out (a high school student is most likely some= one attending secondary school rather than a pupil puffing a joint) or becau= se we no longer pay much attention to punctuation to begin with.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In many cases the hyphen is probably an affectation =E2=80=94 like wearing s= pats, say. And if Mr. Stevenson is right about the general confusion over hy= phen usage, a lot of us were putting on our spats improperly. We wore them w= ith Bermuda shorts, so to speak. But they did look pretty good sometimes=20= =E2=80=94 spiffy and genteel =E2=80=94 and gave our prose an extra strut. We= may feel a little under-dressed =E2=80=94 underdressed, rather =E2=80=94 wi= thout them.=3D=C2=A0 ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http= ://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:19:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Cordle Subject: Re: Foetry & Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier Comments: To: Ryan Daley In-Reply-To: <9778b8630710081104p6f2305bbwa1676397db54ca9b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm not here to get in an argument with you about the politics of po-biz. Frankly, I don't really care anymore, and foetry.com exists only as an archive. It's not active because most poets are indifferent to anything but themselves. I am here only because Baratier lifted a paragraph from foetry.com, written by someone, and attributed it to me, while calling it _my_ fabrication repeatedly. Poets were "targeted" by foetry only when they took money from others to further their own careers and those of their friends and lovers. If their families were mistreated in some way because of that, then don't blame the messenger. They shouldn't have cheated. Those of you who have a problem with foetry.com are a little late. Your attempt to redirect your listmate's libelous actions with a post-foetry attack look pretty foolish. Signing off, Alan > Quote: > > "I hope people will consider his family, even if you disagree > with his words." > > So, does Foetry do this for those it "targets"? > > -Ryan > > On 10/8/07, signupz wrote: >> Dear Chris, >> Perhaps libelous would be a better word than careless. >> And rather than acknowledging this major mistake on the part of Baratier, you twice question whether I am "indeed" Monday Love. ML has an actual name and it's available on the forum. I choose not to use it because he was outed against his will, just as I was. ML has a poet wife (as do I) and he has young children. I would not want him and his family to suffer the nastiness I've been subjected to in the past two years. I hope people will consider his family, even if you disagree with his words. >> Thank you, >> Alan >> Chris Stroffolino wrote: >> > Dear Alan Cordle--- >> > >> > David Baratier's post does not seem "completely careless" to me... If, indeed, you are not "Monday Love," then maybe David's post is slightly careless for not making it clear that you're not this person (if indeed you aren't) >> > Also, why do you use the term "self-righteously denounce" to describe Baratier's letter? >> > Baratier is doing no more than defending himself and trying to set the >> > record straight after having himself been 'denounced' in a piece of writing sanctioned by Foetry--even if you yourself didn't write it. (oh, we could debate on whether Foetry's denunciation of Baratier's work is 'self-righteous' I suppose or simply 'righteous'-- >> > but it's certainly a denunciation, and one based on innuendo and spurious allegations). >> > >> > Oh, and for the sake of full-disclosure, here as well, before you do any more research, >> > yes, my first full-length book of poetry, back in 1994, was the first book Pavement Saw Press published >> > (the book is now out of print now, and, no, it was not supported by any taxpayer's cream), >> > but this is not the reason I'm defending David against Foetry's accusations >> > and I'm open to the possible usefulness of Foetry as a kind of 'watchdog' I suppose, >> > but in this case, there's more than enough evidence to support Baratier's counter claims >> > and nothing but conjecture to support those posted by Foetry (even if not by you personally). >> > >> > Chris >> > >> > >> > On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Alan Cordle wrote: >> > >> >> Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier >> >> >> >> October 5th, 2007 by alan >> >> >> >> In recent research I've been conducting, I came across the following post >> >> on the Poetics listserv out of Buffalo. It's from David Baratier of Pavement Saw Press, from April of this year. >> >> >> >> It frustrates me to see someone so self-righteously denounce Foetry.com's >> >> work, particularly in light of the fact that I did not write _one word_ of >> >> the paragraph he attributed to me. Another forum member, Monday Love, >> >> wrote it. Baratier was completely careless in this post. And no, I'm >> not >> >> against all contests either. And I'm pro Monday Love too. >> >> >> >> Thank you for allowing me to correct the record. >> >> >> >> Alan Cordle >> >> founder of Foetry.com >> >> >> >> ——————————– >> >> >> >> Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:35:21 -0700 >> >> Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org >> >> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >> >> From: David Baratier >> >> Subject: Agni needs a spine >> >> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1The >> >> situation >> >> with foetry affects all of us. It is apparent from my >> >> interactions with foetry that Alan Cordle is against all >> contests, >> >> even an >> >> honest one. Foetry first went after me insinuating that I >> >> appeared in the >> >> Denver Quarterly because I had Bin Ramke as a judge. That >> statement >> >> sat on >> >> their site for many months even after the timeline was shown to >> >> them that >> >> proved that the accusation was false. I am not sure why we were >> >> brought >> >> onto their site except for an apparent need of Cordle to attack >> >> Ramke and >> >> anyone who used him as a judge. The passage below written by >> >> Cordle is >> >> yet >> >> another instance of his making things up without evidence: ————————- Let's see. Please tell me if I got anything >> >> wrong. David Baratier's letters and poems have appeared in the >> >> Denver >> >> Quarterly, editor Bin Ramke, professor, University of Denver. >> >> Baratier is >> >> editor of Pavement Saw Press, in Ohio, which gets money from Ohio >> >> taxpayers in order to establish, according to Pavement Saw >> Press's >> >> mission >> >> statement, a "non-university affiliated press" which helps Ohio's >> >> economy >> >> by attracting outside attention and publishing "works of national >> >> signifiance." Dana Curtis, Ph.D. University of Denver, wins >> >> Pavement Saw >> >> Press Prize, picked by Ramke. Curtis is founder & editor-in-chief >> of >> >> Elixir Press, based in Denver. Jake Adam York, director of >> creative >> >> writing, University of Colorado at Denver, and Colorado Council >> >> on the >> >> Arts fellow, wins Elixir Press Prize. Sounds to me like >> >> university-affiliated Denver is the cat and the Ohio taxpayers >> >> are the >> >> cream. It looks like, so far at least, there's a nice little >> Denver >> >> system >> >> in place here. Very nice. ———————————————- >> >> Ok, Back to my side again The above written by Cordle is a total fabrication. York and Curtis didn't know each other in fact, at >> >> the time >> >> Dana was in Minneapolis, not Denver I did not know Bin except for >> >> asking >> >> him to judge the contest and I asked him because I called to find >> >> out if >> >> they were going to run a interview I did with Simon Perchik >> (which >> >> appeared as a feature in an early issue of Jacket) and while he >> >> was on >> >> the >> >> line I asked if he would be interested. I'll just stop here. The >> >> whole >> >> thing is starting to bother me again. Our contest is blind >> >> judged, the >> >> manuscripts are stripped of the name and publication credits, if >> >> we can >> >> afford a judge, the judge is sent 25 manuscripts out of all >> >> recieved. If >> >> not I end up judging the batch I am sent back from the readers. >> >> If I am >> >> able to afford publishing two books (1000 run each) from the >> >> entries I >> >> do. >> >> Then we pay to mail everyone at least their entry fee worth of >> >> books we >> >> have published. I think we run one of the fairest contests there >> >> is, I >> >> challenged Cordle to come up with a place that did better. I am >> >> still >> >> waiting. Anyway, my experience is that we would have something >> false >> >> written about us with no evidence, and once that material >> >> appeared on the >> >> foetry website it became my job to "prove him wrong." I should >> also >> >> mention that Levine is one of our authors. And that (for the >> record, >> >> as to >> >> avoid more wild speculation) his book won our contest before >> >> Tupelo was >> >> publishing. I also do not see why Levine being accused of a >> >> problem with >> >> the way he runs his press should affect the acceptance of his >> >> poems into >> >> journals. This is heading into an ugly direction, what is next? >> >> Will AGNI >> >> apologize about publishing poems if a poet is accused of running >> a >> >> red-light? Maybe AGNI should apologize for all of the poems they >> >> publish >> >> until they get a spine. Considering the student teacher problems >> >> with >> >> poetry awards and with contests who have chosen a winner >> >> beforehand, my >> >> amazement with Cordle is how inflated he is over the little he >> has >> >> revealed. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO >> >> Box 6291 >> >> Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org >> > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:44:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: The role of the poet in society In-Reply-To: <866099AA-FC9F-4544-9A22-E6C1DC6BEEBB@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all: In July & Aug, visiting new friends in Kolkata, had some interesting discussions on the role of the poet (plays, should play) in society. I would be interested in hearing your own views on the topic. As ever, your time and feedback will be appreciated - especially given that there're lots of folks on the list. Regards, Alexander Jorgensen New work at Shampoo #31: http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirtyone/jorgensen.html -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 01:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: new on rhubarb is susan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed One post made it out of the job season crunch I'm still experiencing -- opinions I hold about poetry (sorted.) http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/10/opinions-i-hold-about-poetry-sorted.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/ Thanks for stopping by, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:57:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Third and last call for poetry submissions for Big Bridge 13 (Jan. '08) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Friends and neighbors-- For a second (check out the first at http://www.bigbridge.org/ deathindex.htm ) mini-anthology of poems, this time inspired by/responding to/related to Czeslaw Milosz's poem "Dedication" and/or the various wars/ insurgencies/etc. going on in the world today, please send 1-6 poems to me at halvard@earthlink.net with the words "Big Bridge" followed by your own name clearly in the subject line. Please, when sending attachments, send all poems in a single attachment. This mini-anthology will appear in the January issue of Big Bridge, and I'll consider submissions of work received before the end of November. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html Dedication You whom I could not save Listen to me. Try to understand this simple speech as I would be ashamed of another. I swear, there is in me no wizardry of words. I speak to you with silence like a cloud or a tree. What strengthened me, for you was lethal. You mixed up farewell to an epoch with the beginning of a new one, Inspiration of hatred with lyrical beauty, Blind force with accomplished shape. Here is the valley of shallow Polish rivers. And an immense bridge Going into white fog. Here is a broken city, And the wind throws the screams of gulls on your grave When I am talking with you. What is poetry which does not save Nations or people? A connivance with official lies, A song of drunkards whose throats will be cut in a moment, Readings for sophomore girls. That I wanted good poetry without knowing it, That I discovered, late, its salutary aim, In this and only this I find salvation. They used to pour millet on graves or poppy seeds To feed the dead who would come disguised as birds. I put this book here for you, who once lived So that you should visit us no more. --Czeslaw Milosz, Warsaw, 1945 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 20:01:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: living poetry Comments: To: Acousticlv@aol.com, AdeenaKarasick@cs.com, AGosfield@aol.com, alonech@acedsl.com, Altjazz@aol.com, amirib@aol.com, Amramdavid@aol.com, anansi1@earthlink.net, AnselmBerrigan@aol.com, arlenej2@verizon.net, Barrywal23@aol.com, bdlilrbt@icqmail.com, butchershoppoet@hotmail.com, CarolynMcClairPR@aol.com, CaseyCyr@aol.com, CHASEMANHATTAN1@aol.com, Djmomo17@aol.com, Dsegnini1216@aol.com, Gfjacq@aol.com, Hooker99@aol.com, rakien@gmail.com, jeromerothenberg@hotmail.com, Jeromesala@aol.com, JillSR@aol.com, JoeLobell@cs.com, JohnLHagen@aol.com, kather8@katherinearnoldi.com, Kevtwi@aol.com, krkubert@hotmail.com, LakiVaz@aol.com, Lisevachon@aol.com, Nuyopoman@AOL.COM, Pedevski@aol.com, pom2@pompompress.com, Rabinart@aol.com, Rcmorgan12@aol.com, reggiedw@comcast.net, RichKostelanetz@aol.com, RnRBDN@aol.com, Smutmonke@aol.com, sprygypsy@yahoo.com, SHoltje@aol.com, Sumnirv@aol.com, tcumbie@nyc.rr.com, velasquez@nyc.com, VITORICCI@aol.com, jakemarmer@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:25:31 -0400 "steve d. dalachinsky" writes: > A GATHERING OF THE TRIBES AND THE LIVING THEATER PRESENT > > Living Tribes Poetry Series > > Open Mic' with Featured Readers > > *!!Bring Your Writing!!* > > The living Theater @ 8pm > > Oct 15th- -Butch Morris' Chorus of Poets > > October 21-* Yuko Otomo / *Steve Dalachinsky/ *Amy Ouzoonian > > For more information contact > Gary Brackett, 212-792-8050 www.livingtheater.org > > The living theater 21 Clinton St. New York, Ny, 10009 (F > train to 2nd AVE or Delancey or 21 Bus) > > sponsored by Poets and Writers > > Tribes Gallery > info@tribes.org > 285 East 3rd Street #2 > NY, NY 10009 > 1- 212-674-3778 > http://www.tribes.org > http://www.myspace.com/85980537 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 17:54:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Foetry & Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier Comments: To: "signupz@bluehole.org" In-Reply-To: <63009.24.21.198.246.1191878343.squirrel@foetry.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Signupz@bluehole, Archives or live action left unproven (again, the burden of proof lies with the accusers) are libelous, thanks to the "print" nature of the internet. I don't know either you or Baratier, so any reference to "listmate" seems odd, and self-victimizing. BUT... Why not backchannel Baratier? What's the point of "post-Foetry"-esquefully posting your skidmarked undies here? Oh...and this... Bulletin: Every time anyone takes money they are furthering their own career. If you take money due to Foetry, you are furthering your own career= . Or...have you figured out a way to sustain life with those $500 poetry awards and contributor copies? Lastly.... Quote: If their families were mistreated in some way because of that, then don't blame the messenger. They shouldn't have cheated. Hypocrite. Hypocrite. -Ryan On 10/8/07, signupz@bluehole.org wrote: > > I'm not here to get in an argument with you about the politics of po-biz. > Frankly, I don't really care anymore, and foetry.com exists only as an > archive. It's not active because most poets are indifferent to anything > but themselves. > > I am here only because Baratier lifted a paragraph from foetry.com, > written by someone, and attributed it to me, while calling it _my_ > fabrication repeatedly. > > Poets were "targeted" by foetry only when they took money from others to > further their own careers and those of their friends and lovers. If thei= r > families were mistreated in some way because of that, then don't blame th= e > messenger. They shouldn't have cheated. > > Those of you who have a problem with foetry.com are a little late. Your > attempt to redirect your listmate's libelous actions with a post-foetry > attack look pretty foolish. > > Signing off, > Alan > > > Quote: > > > > "I hope people will consider his family, even if you disagree > > with his words." > > > > So, does Foetry do this for those it "targets"? > > > > -Ryan > > > > On 10/8/07, signupz wrote: > >> Dear Chris, > >> Perhaps libelous would be a better word than careless. > >> And rather than acknowledging this major mistake on the part of > Baratier, you twice question whether I am "indeed" Monday Love. ML has > an actual name and it's available on the forum. I choose not to use it > because he was outed against his will, just as I was. ML has a poet > wife (as do I) and he has young children. I would not want him and his > family to suffer the nastiness I've been subjected to in the past two > years. I hope people will consider his family, even if you disagree > with his words. > >> Thank you, > >> Alan > >> Chris Stroffolino wrote: > >> > Dear Alan Cordle--- > >> > > >> > David Baratier's post does not seem "completely careless" to me... > If, indeed, you are not "Monday Love," then maybe David's post is > slightly careless for not making it clear that you're not this person > (if indeed you aren't) > >> > Also, why do you use the term "self-righteously denounce" to describ= e > Baratier's letter? > >> > Baratier is doing no more than defending himself and trying to set > the > >> > record straight after having himself been 'denounced' in a piece of > writing sanctioned by Foetry--even if you yourself didn't write it. > (oh, we could debate on whether Foetry's denunciation of Baratier's > work is 'self-righteous' I suppose or simply 'righteous'-- > >> > but it's certainly a denunciation, and one based on innuendo and > spurious allegations). > >> > > >> > Oh, and for the sake of full-disclosure, here as well, before you do > any more research, > >> > yes, my first full-length book of poetry, back in 1994, was the firs= t > book Pavement Saw Press published > >> > (the book is now out of print now, and, no, it was not supported by > any taxpayer's cream), > >> > but this is not the reason I'm defending David against Foetry's > accusations > >> > and I'm open to the possible usefulness of Foetry as a kind of > 'watchdog' I suppose, > >> > but in this case, there's more than enough evidence to support > Baratier's counter claims > >> > and nothing but conjecture to support those posted by Foetry (even i= f > not by you personally). > >> > > >> > Chris > >> > > >> > > >> > On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Alan Cordle wrote: > >> > > >> >> Pavement Saw Press and David Baratier > >> >> > >> >> October 5th, 2007 by alan > >> >> > >> >> In recent research I've been conducting, I came across the followin= g > post > >> >> on the Poetics listserv out of Buffalo. It's from David Baratier of > Pavement Saw Press, from April of this year. > >> >> > >> >> It frustrates me to see someone so self-righteously denounce > Foetry.com's > >> >> work, particularly in light of the fact that I did not write _one > word_ of > >> >> the paragraph he attributed to me. Another forum member, Monday > Love, > >> >> wrote it. Baratier was completely careless in this post. And no, I'= m > >> not > >> >> against all contests either. And I'm pro Monday Love too. > >> >> > >> >> Thank you for allowing me to correct the record. > >> >> > >> >> Alan Cordle > >> >> founder of Foetry.com > >> >> > >> >> =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=96 > >> >> > >> >> Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:35:21 -0700 > >> >> Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org > >> >> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group > >> >> From: David Baratier > >> >> Subject: Agni needs a spine > >> >> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1The > >> >> situation > >> >> with foetry affects all of us. It is apparent from my > >> >> interactions with foetry that Alan Cordle is against all > >> contests, > >> >> even an > >> >> honest one. Foetry first went after me insinuating that I > >> >> appeared in the > >> >> Denver Quarterly because I had Bin Ramke as a judge. That > >> statement > >> >> sat on > >> >> their site for many months even after the timeline was shown to > >> >> them that > >> >> proved that the accusation was false. I am not sure why we were > >> >> brought > >> >> onto their site except for an apparent need of Cordle to attack > >> >> Ramke and > >> >> anyone who used him as a judge. The passage below written by > >> >> Cordle is > >> >> yet > >> >> another instance of his making things up without evidence: > =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97- Let's see. Please tell me if I got anything > >> >> wrong. David Baratier's letters and poems have appeared in the > >> >> Denver > >> >> Quarterly, editor Bin Ramke, professor, University of Denver. > >> >> Baratier is > >> >> editor of Pavement Saw Press, in Ohio, which gets money from > Ohio > >> >> taxpayers in order to establish, according to Pavement Saw > >> Press's > >> >> mission > >> >> statement, a "non-university affiliated press" which helps > Ohio's > >> >> economy > >> >> by attracting outside attention and publishing "works of > national > >> >> signifiance." Dana Curtis, Ph.D. University of Denver, wins > >> >> Pavement Saw > >> >> Press Prize, picked by Ramke. Curtis is founder & > editor-in-chief > >> of > >> >> Elixir Press, based in Denver. Jake Adam York, director of > >> creative > >> >> writing, University of Colorado at Denver, and Colorado Council > >> >> on the > >> >> Arts fellow, wins Elixir Press Prize. Sounds to me like > >> >> university-affiliated Denver is the cat and the Ohio taxpayers > >> >> are the > >> >> cream. It looks like, so far at least, there's a nice little > >> Denver > >> >> system > >> >> in place here. Very nice. =97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97=97= =97=97=97- > >> >> Ok, Back to my side again The above written by Cordle is a tota= l > fabrication. York and Curtis didn't know each other in fact, at > >> >> the time > >> >> Dana was in Minneapolis, not Denver I did not know Bin except > for > >> >> asking > >> >> him to judge the contest and I asked him because I called to > find > >> >> out if > >> >> they were going to run a interview I did with Simon Perchik > >> (which > >> >> appeared as a feature in an early issue of Jacket) and while he > >> >> was on > >> >> the > >> >> line I asked if he would be interested. I'll just stop here. Th= e > >> >> whole > >> >> thing is starting to bother me again. Our contest is blind > >> >> judged, the > >> >> manuscripts are stripped of the name and publication credits, i= f > >> >> we can > >> >> afford a judge, the judge is sent 25 manuscripts out of all > >> >> recieved. If > >> >> not I end up judging the batch I am sent back from the readers. > >> >> If I am > >> >> able to afford publishing two books (1000 run each) from the > >> >> entries I > >> >> do. > >> >> Then we pay to mail everyone at least their entry fee worth of > >> >> books we > >> >> have published. I think we run one of the fairest contests ther= e > >> >> is, I > >> >> challenged Cordle to come up with a place that did better. I am > >> >> still > >> >> waiting. Anyway, my experience is that we would have something > >> false > >> >> written about us with no evidence, and once that material > >> >> appeared on the > >> >> foetry website it became my job to "prove him wrong." I should > >> also > >> >> mention that Levine is one of our authors. And that (for the > >> record, > >> >> as to > >> >> avoid more wild speculation) his book won our contest before > >> >> Tupelo was > >> >> publishing. I also do not see why Levine being accused of a > >> >> problem with > >> >> the way he runs his press should affect the acceptance of his > >> >> poems into > >> >> journals. This is heading into an ugly direction, what is next? > >> >> Will AGNI > >> >> apologize about publishing poems if a poet is accused of runnin= g > >> a > >> >> red-light? Maybe AGNI should apologize for all of the poems the= y > >> >> publish > >> >> until they get a spine. Considering the student teacher problem= s > >> >> with > >> >> poetry awards and with contests who have chosen a winner > >> >> beforehand, my > >> >> amazement with Cordle is how inflated he is over the little he > >> has > >> >> revealed. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO > >> >> Box 6291 > >> >> Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org > >> > > >> > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:26:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gfrym@EARTHLINK.NET Subject: Re: Eleven Eleven issue 4 and submission call for issue 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you really want work from faculty, Hugh? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Behm-Steinberg" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 4:04 PM Subject: Eleven Eleven issue 4 and submission call for issue 5 > Announcing the release of issue four of Eleven Eleven, edited by Ben > Lerner and featuring the work of Aharon Shabtai (translated by Peter > Cole), Cole Swensen, Renee Gladman, Rusty Morrison, Magdalena Zurawski, > Jacqueline Risset (translated by Jennifer Moxley), Aaron Kunin, K. Silem > Mohammad, David Shapiro, Edward Bartók-Baratta, Chris Abani, > Michael Palmer, and a selection of five emerging Mexican poets edited and > translated by Jen Hofer and Román Luján (Rodrigo Flores and > His Homies, Alejandro Tarrab, José Manuel Velázquez, Karen > Plata, and Rosalva García Coral). > > On sale now for $8, directly from CCA. Make checks out to California > College of the Arts, Attn: Eleven Eleven. > > We are now reading for issue five. Send up to five poems or 7,000 words of > prose, plus SASE. Deadline is January 31, 2008. > > Send checks and submissions to: > > Eleven Eleven > California College of the Arts > 1111 Eighth Street > San Francisco, CA 94107 > > For more information, write to us at eleveneleven@cca.edu. > > est, > > Hugh Behm-Steinberg > Faculty Editor > Eleven Eleven > > > > --------------------------------- > Building a website is a piece of cake. > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:35:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Suzanne Burns Subject: Re: Which pop song most sets feminism back? In-Reply-To: <000301c808a2$72defe40$22de9e04@D48XR971> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 10/7/07, Fluffy Singler wrote: > > Actually the line in Under My Thumb is "It's down to me . . . " Ahhhh, well chalk this up as a Mondegreen then. I never heard it, but there was a big splash on the internet about Alanis > Morrissette's version of Humps which was supposedly quite hilarious and > casts the song in a fairly different light. I highly recommend it-- her video is hilarious. Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:40:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071008152017.060fae88@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I=C2=A0thank that speculation of this kind about Simic's capacity to perceiv= e nuance in a second language=C2=A0is superfluous, as=C2=A0Simic gives away=20= the limits of his language, the limits of his world (or at least the limits=20= of his poetic kingdom)=C2=A0by the way he construes "no ideas but in things"= ...the way a poet who favors the image-based lyric usually does... Creeley is certainly a poet of subtleties, which is why the comparisons to h= is distant English antecedents seem so apt.=C2=A0There was something very l= =3Da=3Dn=3Dg=3Du=3Da=3Dg=3De-y flitting through a medium that seemed to be m= ore than occasionally aware of its own phantasmal nature in that period, som= etimes=C2=A0questioning itself=C2=A0spookily in poets like Ben Jonson, to ci= te one. And when a poet quotes W.C.W. as above, they're not bound to be fond= of poems which are almost phenomenological examinations of how thought aris= es through the synapses of syntax itself...thinking here of=C2=A0many marvel= ous "image-less" poems of Creeley's where=C2=A0"poem" is practically=C2=A0re= defined...it takes a genius to redefine the poem itself and I think that's w= hat irritates people so much...that a poet of Simic's stature could miss the= elemental contribution and add so many negative asides... The poems he cites as=C2=A0"good Creeley" and those he assigns (romantically= ) to what he sees as Creeley's "late bloom" reveal exactly the sort of poetr= y he valorizes...which is fine, it's=C2=A0a free world...or sorta....=C2=A0 And just out of curiosity, does anyone know when Rosmarie Waldrop came "into= " the English language...because I think she might be a brilliant counter-ex= ample to the precept that poets can't master nuance in a second language acq= uired later...I can think of few poets writing today who have gone inside th= is language and equaled the sort of subtle,=C2=A0uncannily=C2=A0precise=C2= =A0grammarye she has been giving us for decades... -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 3:42 pm Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, not least the starkness of t= he opposition you put forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking about.= Life isn't long enough for a detailed response. One point I think does need= making. Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic games when she say= s, rather mildly, "It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to rea= d Creeley=E2=80=B9and perhaps many other American poets. It is hard=E2=80= =B9almost impossible--to hear all the layerings of meaning in any but your n= ative tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition of a native ear for=20= all the subtlties of language and dialect is very rare after early childhood= . One can write very well in the acquired language, of course, without that=20= degree of awareness of the idiom, but even that's extremely rare.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on the translation of his poems.= Jose has lived in a largely English-speaking environment since his 18th bir= thday, and his English is articulate and virtually flawless, and barely acce= nted. Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like the depth of awarene= ss of English that he has of Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the nuan= ces of a Spanish word and the English approximations I planned to use, and h= e was usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to confront a poetry as subtle as= Creeley's, and Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was decidedly con= servative, almost Russian in its formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to ove= rvalue the least subtle effects--those he or she can hear--in the new langua= ge, which is why Dylan Thomas, for example, is much more popular among Spani= sh-language poets than among anglophones and Lorca's ballads more popular am= ong anglophones than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As to Kerouac= , his early separation from English was nothing near as complete (nor as lon= g-lasting) as Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's going on in Creeley and a gre= at deal of other US poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lo= t of native speakers.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mark=C2=A0 =C2=A0 At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote:=C2=A0 > In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of=C2=A0 >"El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an=C2=A0 >aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some=C2=A0 >passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to=C2=A0 >himself rather than the "real" Matador.=C2=A0 > The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world=C2=A0 >of the professional ritual of Death!=C2=A0 > Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and=C2=A0 >keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the reappearance=C2= =A0 >of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El=C2=A0 >Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring=C2=A0 >insures repeat performances.=C2=A0 > One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality=C2=A0 >and turn it into their own personal mythology.=C2=A0 > El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the=C2=A0 >confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the=C2=A0 >encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of ritual,=C2=A0 >of the organized meanings and practices of Death.=C2=A0 > El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with=C2=A0 >windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real life=C2= =A0 >robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights=C2=A0 >who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the=C2=A0 >keepers of the gates of the Real.=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody=C2=A0 >against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue=C2=A0 >from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket=C2=A0 >notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the=C2=A0 >worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done=C2=A0 >with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world around=C2= =A0 >him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s=C2=A0 >sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual=C2=A0 >language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language=C2=A0 >speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of Simic's=C2= =A0 >status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac worked=C2=A0 >with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page.=C2=A0 >Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary"=C2=A0 >qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many=C2=A0 >volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane speeds.=C2= =A0 >"Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he said,=C2= =A0 >while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing."=C2=A0 > As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in=C2=A0 >the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with Death=C2= =A0 >and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and=C2=A0 >continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that=C2=A0 >even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the=C2=A0 >publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of=C2=A0 >Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he=C2=A0 >"discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted=C2= =A0 >the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to=C2= =A0 >present his "book movie, the original American form."=C2=A0 > The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published=C2=A0 >novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in=C2=A0 >standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate=C2=A0 >generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter=C2=A0 >with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" works=C2= =A0 >of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable."=C2=A0 > Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far over=C2=A0 >into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete=C2=A0 >edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's=C2=A0 >Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English=C2=A0 >language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop=C2=A0 >prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational"=C2=A0 >orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which translated=C2= =A0 >means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the=C2=A0 >future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to=C2=A0 >return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of Duluoz,=C2= =A0 >to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing.=C2=A0 > Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free=C2=A0 >Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not=C2=A0 >like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at=C2= =A0 > through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical=C2=A0 >forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able=C2= =A0 >to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free.=C2=A0 > The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the=C2=A0 >"crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous examples is=C2=A0 >"Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished,=C2=A0 >exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to work at=C2= =A0 >their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all=C2=A0 >showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. Yet=C2=A0 >when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive=C2=A0 >work to display at all.=C2=A0 > The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show=C2=A0 >you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the=C2=A0 >dusty floor a perfect circle.=C2=A0 > Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges=C2=A0 >were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for=C2=A0 >his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the=C2=A0 >most disciplined "craft" in Italy.=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which=C2=A0 >seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous"=C2=A0 >compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging=C2=A0 >like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made=C2=A0 >up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes.=C2=A0 > Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one=C2=A0 >can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a series=C2= =A0 >of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through=C2=A0 >deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to=C2=A0 >use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in the=C2= =A0 >Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating book on=C2=A0 >the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the=C2=A0 >course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The=C2=A0 >Little Cigar Store Girl.)=C2=A0 > Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous=C2=A0 >outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F=C2=A0 >Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of=C2=A0 >drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also=C2=A0 >demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression.=C2=A0 > The same thing can be done in music and film, video=C2=A0 >studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be=C2=A0 >experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring=C2=A0 >spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series=C2=A0 >of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact."=C2=A0 > The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a=C2=A0 >much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the=C2=A0 >"spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of=C2=A0 >composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of=C2=A0 >spontaneity?=C2=A0 > The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di=C2=A0 >Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word=C2=A0 >"momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much=C2=A0 >glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be=C2=A0 >sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being "momently"=C2= =A0 >and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather=C2= =A0 >than "of the moment."=C2=A0 > And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is "momently"=C2=A0 >how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a concern=C2= =A0 >with "spontaneity."=C2=A0 > That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of any=C2=A0 >concern to Simic?=C2=A0 > El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic=C2=A0 >character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of=C2=A0 >being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice=C2=A0 >whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional=C2= =A0 >Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of=C2=A0 >course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the=C2=A0 >ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of=C2=A0 >afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another=C2=A0 >deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the Corrida=C2= =A0 >and its ritual of Death.=C2=A0 > El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous,=C2=A0 >having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening=C2=A0 >in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the=C2=A0 >Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to=C2=A0 >be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact=C2=A0 >been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another=C2= =A0 >form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk=C2= =A0 >and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display.=C2=A0 > Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein=C2=A0 >foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which both=C2=A0 >ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds?=C2=A0 > I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of=C2=A0 >competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and=C2=A0 >differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the=C2=A0 >soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is=C2=A0 >not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more=C2=A0 >interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of=C2= =A0 >the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to=C2=A0 >demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is=C2=A0 >being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to=C2=A0 >pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of=C2=A0 >spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in=C2=A0 >relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and what=C2= =A0 >his ideas on these lines are.=C2=A0 > I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to speak,=C2=A0 >this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of=C2=A0 >"poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of=C2=A0 >Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to=C2=A0 >actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the=C2=A0 >current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading=C2= =A0 >desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays=C2=A0 >to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic=C2=A0 >identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is=C2= =A0 >possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their=C2= =A0 >ultimate extremes in his country of origin.=C2=A0 > All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of=C2=A0 >ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's=C2=A0 >thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree=C2=A0 >100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of=C2=A0 >course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" alien,=C2= =A0 >not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right=C2=A0 >to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the=C2=A0 >"right" humans.=C2=A0 > I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and=C2=A0 >forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very interesting=C2= =A0 >and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself=C2=A0 >for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer understanding of=C2= =A0 >what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as=C2=A0 >"spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling=C2=A0 >epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy Land=C2= =A0 >and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in the=C2= =A0 >first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" which=C2=A0 >are older than Aristotle's.=C2=A0 > Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?"=C2=A0 > Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing=C2=A0 >one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in=C2=A0 >the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's=C2= =A0 >own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of,=C2= =A0 >one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before=C2=A0 >confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob,=C2= =A0 >Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of=C2=A0 >persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published,=C2=A0 >speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and=C2=A0 >banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of=C2= =A0 >higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If=C2=A0 >one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably=C2=A0 >before attacking a person,an article with such virulence.=C2=A0 > That is why, again, I return to the question of spontaneity.=C2=A0 >Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk=C2=A0 >reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which even=C2= =A0 >in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own?=C2=A0 > It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play=C2=A0 >employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word 'Culture,"=C2= =A0 >I reach for my revolver."=C2=A0 > "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > of it--not one's own, to be sure.= =C2=A0 > Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the=C2=A0 >spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect=C2=A0 >Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random=C2= =A0 >with a revolver.=C2=A0 > One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards.=C2=A0 > Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of=C2=A0 >"poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out=C2= =A0 >for oneself as Olson would say.=C2=A0 > "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says.=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 >(By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the=C2=A0 >article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly=C2=A0 >disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they would not=C2= =A0 >only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even=C2=A0 >read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that=C2=A0 >buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge number of=C2= =A0 >books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any rate,=C2= =A0 >there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.)=C2=A0 ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http= ://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:06:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Small Press Traffic Needs You! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Friends of Small Press Traffic-- The 2007-2008 season has brought a lot of changes to SPT! The organization has a new Interim Director, several new hip and visionary Board Members, a sparkling new look to our website (www.sptraffic.org), and even new paypal buttons on our "supporters" page. Please also note our fairly new email address: smallpresstraffic@gmail.com. With all of the changes, Small Press Traffic is proud to continue its legacy as one of the oldest literary arts centers on the West Coast. We are as deeply committed as ever to innovative writing and experimentation. This has not changed in the least. But we need your help. This fiscal year is a challenging one for us at SPT as certain grant cycles require us to take a funding "year off." Small Press Traffic is a community based and supported organization and we need our community just now. So many poets we know have meant to join SPT, have wanted to, but just didn't quite get around to it. Now is the time! In this off-budget year for SPT, your support makes a real difference. As a member of Small Press Traffic, you will receive free admission to all of our events, as well as a subscription to Traffic, our fearless and fabulous journal. Plus your name will appear on our website and in our nationally circulated fliers. Please become a member, or renew your membership today. The first 50 people to join or renew will receive archival broadsides from our vintage collection. And it's so easy. Just visit http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm and choose the amount you'd like to donate. Please remember that your contribution is tax-deductible and provides much needed funds for SPT's new upcoming events, travel funds for writers, ground-breaking symposia, and new equipment. Thank you in advance for your support in this membership drive and for making this one of SPT's best years yet! See you Fridays, Dana Teen Lomax Interim Executive Director David Buuck Board President Small Press Traffic Board of Directors: President, David Buuck; Vice-President, Stephanie Young; Treasurer, Brent Cunningham; Secretary, Scott Inguito; Board Members, Chris Chen; Cynthia Sailers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 00:40:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071008152017.060fae88@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Mark, Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word of English until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from writing what I want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final analysis (look I dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the consciousness about language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. I do not know if you are aware of the number of major American poets whose first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, to name a few. One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the poet must experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in detail in the essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley learns this alienation from Zukofsky. David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though to achieve tha= t freedom may take years? Ciao, Murat On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, > not least the starkness of the opposition you put > forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking > about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed > response. One point I think does need making. > Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic > games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be > that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read > Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It > is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all the > layerings of meaning in any but your native > tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition > of a native ear for all the subtlties of language > and dialect is very rare after early childhood. > One can write very well in the acquired language, > of course, without that degree of awareness of > the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > > I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on > the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a > largely English-speaking environment since his > 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and > virtually flawless, and barely accented. > Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like > the depth of awareness of English that he has of > Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the > nuances of a Spanish word and the English > approximations I planned to use, and he was > usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. > > Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to > confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and > Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was > decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its > formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue > the least subtle effects--those he or she can > hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan > Thomas, for example, is much more popular among > Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and > Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones > than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As > to Kerouac, his early separation from English was > nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as > Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. > > I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's > going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US > poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of native > speakers. > > Mark > > > At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > > In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of > >"El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an > >aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some > >passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to > >himself rather than the "real" Matador. > > The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world > >of the professional ritual of Death! > > Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and > >keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the reappearance > >of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El > >Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring > >insures repeat performances. > > One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality > >and turn it into their own personal mythology. > > El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the > >confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the > >encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of ritual, > >of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > > El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with > >windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real life > >robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights > >who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the > >keepers of the gates of the Real. > > > > Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody > >against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue > >from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket > >notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the > >worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done > >with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world around > >him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s > >sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual > >language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language > >speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of Simic's > >status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac worked > >with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. > >Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" > >qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many > >volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane speeds. > >"Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he said, > >while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." > > As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in > >the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with Death > >and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and > >continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that > >even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the > >publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of > >Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he > >"discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted > >the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to > >present his "book movie, the original American form." > > The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published > >novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in > >standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate > >generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter > >with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" works > >of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." > > Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far over > >into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete > >edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's > >Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English > >language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop > >prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" > >orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which translated > >means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the > >future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to > >return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of Duluoz, > >to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > > Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free > >Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not > >like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at > > through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical > >forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able > >to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > > The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the > >"crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous examples is > >"Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, > >exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to work at > >their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all > >showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. Yet > >when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive > >work to display at all. > > The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show > >you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the > >dusty floor a perfect circle. > > Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges > >were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for > >his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the > >most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > > > > On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which > >seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" > >compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging > >like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made > >up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. > > Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one > >can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a series > >of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through > >deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to > >use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in the > >Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating book on > >the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the > >course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The > >Little Cigar Store Girl.) > > Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous > >outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F > >Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of > >drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also > >demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. > > The same thing can be done in music and film, video > >studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be > >experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring > >spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series > >of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." > > The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a > >much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the > >"spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of > >composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of > >spontaneity? > > The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di > >Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word > >"momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much > >glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be > >sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being "momently" > >and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather > >than "of the moment." > > And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is "momently" > >how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a concern > >with "spontaneity." > > That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of any > >concern to Simic? > > El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic > >character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of > >being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice > >whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional > >Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of > >course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the > >ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of > >afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another > >deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the Corrida > >and its ritual of Death. > > El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, > >having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening > >in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the > >Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to > >be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact > >been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another > >form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk > >and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > > Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein > >foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which both > >ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > > I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of > >competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and > >differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the > >soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is > >not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more > >interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of > >the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to > >demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is > >being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to > >pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of > >spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in > >relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and what > >his ideas on these lines are. > > I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to speak, > >this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of > >"poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of > >Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to > >actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the > >current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading > >desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays > >to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic > >identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is > >possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their > >ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > > All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of > >ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's > >thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree > >100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of > >course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" alien, > >not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right > >to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the > >"right" humans. > > I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and > >forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very interesting > >and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself > >for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer understanding of > >what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as > >"spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling > >epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy Land > >and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in the > >first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" which > >are older than Aristotle's. > > Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?" > > Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing > >one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in > >the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's > >own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of, > >one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before > >confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob, > >Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of > >persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, > >speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and > >banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of > >higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If > >one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably > >before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > > That is why, again, I return to the question of spontaneity. > >Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk > >reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which even > >in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > > It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play > >employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word 'Culture," > >I reach for my revolver." > > "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > > of it--not one's own, to be sure. > > Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the > >spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect > >Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random > >with a revolver. > > One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > > Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of > >"poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out > >for oneself as Olson would say. > > "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > > > >(By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the > >article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly > >disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they would not > >only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even > >read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that > >buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge number of > >books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any rate, > >there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 01:19:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: Reminder: Saturday night at Williamsburg Art & Historical Center, NYC Comments: To: lit-events@yahoogroups.com, NYCWriters@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline *Saturday, October, 13 2007** 8:00 =96 10:00 pm Williamsburg Art & Historic= al Center (wahcenter.net) ** 135 Broadway, Williamsburg (corner of Bedford), New York, New York 11211**; Donation: $10*** *Heard Words with Music** * *A Round Robin Reading curated by Carol Novack, Publisher/Editor, Mad Hatters' Review (http://www.madhattersreview.com)** * *Featuring Mad Hatters' Review Poetry & Fiction Writers Eric Darton, Urayoa= n Noel, Carol Novack, and Elizabeth Smith, *accompanied by improvised music b= y experimental Musician/Composer Peter Knoll.* * ******** Other performances/exhibitions will include a showing of a collaborative film by Orin Buck and Carol Novack (based on images in one of her poems), and a performance by innovative German dancers, *Yana Schnitzler's Human Kinetics Movement Arts, *with photographic projections by the event's host, photographer *Joel Simpson,* curator of the group digital art exhibition currently at WAH. Please check http://www.wahcenter.org for directions to the Williamsburg Ar= t & Historical Center. Biographical details may be found at http://www.madhattersreview.com. Any questions? Email Carol. --=20 MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com KEEP THE MAD HATTERS ALIVE! MAKE A TAX DEDUCTIBLE DONATION HERE: https://www.fracturedatlas.org/site/contribute/donate/580 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:15:09 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Ladkin Subject: Cambridge Reading (UK) Oct 16th Pattison, Jarvis, Stanley Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > Apologies for cross posting > POETRY READING IN CAMBRIDGE > > Tuesday, October 16th > > The Erasmus Room, Queens' College > > where: > > Neil Pattison, Josh Stanley & Simon Jarvis > > will be reading. Readings start at 8pm. > > FREE ENTRY , ALL WELCOME > > From a letter to Simon Jarvis by Keston Sutherland http:// > www.oncompanytime.biz/jarvis.html > > "It is a poem not only unique in its accomplishment of thinking, > into which it earns its way with the most strenuous imaginable > commitment, truly a philosophic song like no other; it is unique > also and perhaps more profoundly in its immense, anannihilative > fidelity to the living need for uniqueness, for the one > particularity of uniqueness itself not to be shaded off somewhere > into the pastel reserves of a generalisable concepthood but to be > here and now, if that's the only place and time where heaven is > though not itself at least myself." > > Neil Pattison's work can be found at http://www.barquepress.com/ > preferences.html > > Selections of Josh Stanley's work can be found at http:// > intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2007/08/poem-by-joshua-stanley.html > > Map of Queens': http://www.queens.cam.ac.uk/queens/Contact/ > CollMap.gif > > The Erasmus Room can be found in Pump Court. > > www.cambridgepoetry.org CONTACT Josh Stanley on jss54@cam.ac.uk for any other information. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:35:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Here, Bullet... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A grain of salt, a grain of sand... http://homefires.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/verses-in-wartime-part-1-in= -country/index.html?ref=3Dopinion Gerald S. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:34:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Drunken Boat looking for work for (mis)Translation Folio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Drunken Boat, international online journal of the arts, is assembling = material for its next issue and will be considering work for a = (mis)translation folio, which is broadly defined as encompassing = everything from straight translation to = homophonic/homolinguistic/lexical translation to multimedia and mixed = genre translations. Send any work to by October 31st = for consideration.=20 ***************=20 Ravi Shankar=20 Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 Poet-in-Residence=20 Associate Professor=20 CCSU - English Dept.=20 860-832-2766=20 shankarr@ccsu.edu=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 05:05:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: language acquisition In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark, This is said in all friendliness and for the sake of discussion, and I bear you only goodwill (saying that just in case I sound wounding anywhere on accident), but this is a very interesting issue to me, so here goes. You claim the widely-held opinion that a second language cannot be "fully" acquired and mastered after age 18, ie to a comparable level as the native tongue. (I'm approximating your nuance to some extent, but yours is a variant of the same view, which I've usually heard or read with *much* younger ages, to your credit: 12 or 15, eg). The Creeley vs. Simic thing aside, I think this view of second language acquisition (see below for your quote) is a harmful received idea. There may be a very minimal degree of biological accuracy, sure, *perhaps*, but in that case maybe without much basis in research (not that I've checked into that closely, admittedly...). I've spoken repeatedly with two specialists in applied linguistics about this, in public and in private (one an important scholar, -- and a chomskian, to boot!): both agreed, this opinion about the limits of linguistic mastery possible after puberty has no basis in fact and is no more than widely assumed conjecture. One of these specialists expressed slight scorn for the notion, as a cliche accepted by people outside the discipline. More importantly, issues of language mastery are so often used to dismiss or disparage "second-language" writers (especially when language is doubled with perceived racial difference), that this opinion is best avoided. Who wants to adopt as their own the opinions of the racist French (and elsewhere, probably) editorial milieu? I think that's a compelling reason to simply assume this idea about language acquisition is false, or at least assume just about *anything* before I assume a person has imperfect mastery of a second language.... Accent, for example, is often a basis for such judgments, but I've seen time and time again that the extent of a second-language accent has no necessary relation whatsoever to mastery of vocabulary, grammar, expression written and oral, etc, etc.... Although I'll note that you don't think Simic's problem is one of language acquisition, and I'm sure you're right. You also base your opinion in personal experience: I'm sure you're right in the cases you've encountered, too. Furthermore, you do say "very rare" rather than "never": but "very rare" is a slippery word, and I would suggest rather too vague. What a difficult thing to measure, after all! Fascinating discussion, in any event. Amicalement, Alex Mark Weiss wrote: >David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways,=20 >not least the starkness of the opposition you put=20 forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking=20 about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed=20 response. One point I think does need making.=20 Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic=20 games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be=20 that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read=20 Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It=20 is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all the=20 layerings of meaning in any but your native=20 tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition=20 of a native ear for all the subtlties of language=20 and dialect is very rare after early childhood.=20 One can write very well in the acquired language,=20 of course, without that degree of awareness of=20 the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: jofuhrman@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joanna Fuhrman Subject: Fall Zinc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 10/14 Joanna Fuhrman & Paul Violi 7 PM10/21 Jessica Rogers & TBA 7PM10/28 Aaron Belz, Michael Schiavo, John Mateer and Peter Davis 7 PM11/4 Erica Kaufman & Bruce Andrews 7 PM11/11 Leslie Scalapino & Lisa Lubasch 7 PM 11/18 Buck Downs & Shafer Hall 7 PM11/25 Xtina Strong & Joanna Sondheim & Jess Fiorini 7 PM12/2 Charles North & Charles Bernstein 7 PM12/9 Daisy Fried & Cathy Park Hong 7 PMThe Zinc Bar90 West Houston Street(corner of La Guardia Place)Greenwich VillageNew York NYPaul Violihttp://www.poems.com/feature.php?date=13581Joanna Fuhrmanhttp://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19069 _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:14:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Poetics List Welcome Message - Please Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Poetics List Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) Poetics List Editor: Amy King Poetics List Editorial Board: Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Amy King, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Poetics Subscription Registration (required) poetics.list --at -- gmail.com note our new address! 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Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 09:54:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Allegrezza Subject: Fwd: Huge Poetry Reading in Chicago! Comments: To: wallegre@iun.edu In-Reply-To: <7ebc05130710090750p1b31ddf4v66aebf2d3ef834c9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline *CHICAGO POETS READ FROM THE CITY VISIBLE* Cracked Slab Books is pleased to announce a reading by poets of its new anthology, *The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century*, on October 20th at 7:00 p.m. at 3617 W Belle Plaine Ave. (Gethsemane Evangelical Church=97yes, in the church). The readers will include: Nick Twemlow =96 Robyn Schiff =96 Johanny V=E1zquez Paz =96 Joel Felix =96 = Peter O'Leary =96 Garin Cycholl =96 Chris Glomski =96 Simone Muench =96 Cynthia B= ond =96 Kristy Odelius =96 Lina Vitkauskas =96 Larry Sawyer =96 William Allegrezza = =96 Jorge Sanchez =96 Tony Trigilio =96 Jennifer Karmin =96 Ray Bianchi =96 Kerri Son= nenberg =96 Eric Elshtain Admission: $5 (or $15 dollars if you want a copy of the anthology=97its retail value is $22.95) For more information, contact editor@crackedslabbooks.com or call 312-342-7337. For the book, see crackedslabbooks.com or visit amazon.com. * About The City Visible:* Edited by Ray Bianchi and William Allegrezza, this anthology brings togethe= r a sampling of some of the best poets working in Chicago and the surrounding region. From all corners of the city, these poets are crafting a voice for Chicago literature in the new century. The book contains work from the following poets: Jennifer Scappettone * Suzanne Buffam * Srikanth Reddy * Robyn Schiff * Nic= k Twemlow * John Tipton * Eric Elshtain * David Pavelich * Peter O'Leary * William Fuller * Michael O'Leary * Mark Tardi * Erica Bernheim * Michael Antonucci * Chris Glomski * Garin Cycholl * Luis Urrea * Kristy Odelius * Lina Ramona Vitkauskas * Simone Muench * Lea Graham * Ed Roberson * Arielle Greenberg * Tony Trigilio * Shin Yu Pai * Dan Beachy-Quick * Maxine Chernof= f * Kerri Sonnenberg * Jesse Seldess * Paul Hoover * Michelle Taransky * Robert Archambeau * Bill Marsh * Larry Sawyer * Cecilia Pinto * Johanny V=E1zquez Paz * Ela Kotkowska * Jorge Sanchez * Joel Craig * Daniel Borzutz= ky * Joel Felix * Raymond Bianchi * Cynthia Bond * William Allegrezza * Jennifer Karmin * Tim Yu * Laura Sims * Roberto Harrison * Brenda C=E1rdena= s * Stacy Szymaszek * Chuck Stebelton * Jordan Stempleman. *Praise for the Anthology:* When Carl Sandburg asked in his *Chicago Poems*, close to a hundred years ago, for "a voice to speak to me in the day end, / A hand to touch me in th= e dark room / Breaking the long loneliness," little did he know his city woul= d be so fully and livingly answered and so honored. Chicago is again transformed by poetry. Here in these myriad acts of imagination, the poets of T*he City Visible* give to it again, in Shakespeare's terms, :a local habitation and a name." Peter Gizzi The most exciting and satisfying anthology I've acquired in the past month is *The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century* . . . It not only is easily the best anthology I've ever seen that tried to capture the livel= y scene of the Second City, but it's a worthy companion to Stephanie Young's = *Bay Poetics*, which for my money is the gold standard in contemporary poetry anthologies, especially ones that offer a regional focus. Ron Silliman There's a lot of fantastic writing here . . . there s a diversity of expression that makes it a fantastic sourcebook. Simon DeDeo *The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century* is a prudent investment for any reader of contemporary poetry . . . the book is a nice, hearty, earnest sampling of interesting poets. Olivia Cronk, *Bookslut* Unveiling an entire new poetic culture may seem like the act of a master magician, but Allegrezza and Bianchi have been on the case a long time and they know what they're doing. Volume Two is said to be in the works, and in the meantime I for one will be ordering several copies of Volume One for students, friends, and family relations. When young poets ask me, where should I go, what should I do, nowadays I always say pull out a map, throw in a dart. X marks the spot, but Chicago is the most exciting scene around. Years from now we'll be looking back at the early 21st century and wishing we'd all relocated there at this time in poetry history. Kevin Killian Bill Allegrezza p.s. My list is not large, so feel free to forward this to poets you know, especially poets in Chicago. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:57:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710082140hbe77abgadfb99cb23602805@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Knowing more than one language at an early age is=20 certainly useful. Not knowing English at an early=20 age is not a disqualification, but it is a=20 difference. Williams also had a father, and by=20 the time he was weaned he was involved in an=20 English-speaking world. He also went to=20 English-speaking public school. Zukofsky spoke=20 Yiddish in the family, but the street was=20 polyglot. I don't know the details of Stein's=20 upbringing--the rich for their own reasons often=20 raised their children in a foreign language. One may definitely argue whatever one wants. I'm=20 not definitely arguing anything--there are=20 exceptions. Montaigne spoke only Latin in his=20 childhood and then invented modern French prose.=20 That degree of acquisition of nuance in a=20 language learned after early childhood is not imposssible, but it's very= rare. But as I said, I don't think that Simic was=20 unable to read Creeley, I think he was engaged in a broader polemic. Mark At 12:40 AM 10/9/2007, you wrote: >Mark, > >Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word of English >until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from writing what I >want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final analysis (look I >dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the consciousness about >language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. > >I do not know if you are aware of the number of major American poets whose >first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, to name a >few. > >One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the poet must >experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in detail in the >essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley learns this >alienation from Zukofsky. > >David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though to achieve= that >freedom may take years? > >Ciao, > >Murat > > >On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, > > not least the starkness of the opposition you put > > forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking > > about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed > > response. One point I think does need making. > > Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic > > games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be > > that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read > > Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It > > is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all the > > layerings of meaning in any but your native > > tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition > > of a native ear for all the subtlties of language > > and dialect is very rare after early childhood. > > One can write very well in the acquired language, > > of course, without that degree of awareness of > > the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > > > > I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on > > the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a > > largely English-speaking environment since his > > 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and > > virtually flawless, and barely accented. > > Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like > > the depth of awareness of English that he has of > > Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the > > nuances of a Spanish word and the English > > approximations I planned to use, and he was > > usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. > > > > Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to > > confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and > > Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was > > decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its > > formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue > > the least subtle effects--those he or she can > > hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan > > Thomas, for example, is much more popular among > > Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and > > Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones > > than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As > > to Kerouac, his early separation from English was > > nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as > > Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. > > > > I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's > > going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US > > poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of native > > speakers. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > > > In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of > > >"El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an > > >aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some > > >passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to > > >himself rather than the "real" Matador. > > > The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world > > >of the professional ritual of Death! > > > Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and > > >keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the reappearance > > >of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El > > >Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring > > >insures repeat performances. > > > One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality > > >and turn it into their own personal mythology. > > > El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the > > >confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the > > >encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of ritual, > > >of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > > > El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with > > >windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real life > > >robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights > > >who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the > > >keepers of the gates of the Real. > > > > > > Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody > > >against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue > > >from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket > > >notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the > > >worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done > > >with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world around > > >him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s > > >sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual > > >language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language > > >speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of Simic's > > >status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac worked > > >with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. > > >Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" > > >qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many > > >volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane speeds. > > >"Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he said, > > >while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." > > > As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in > > >the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with Death > > >and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and > > >continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that > > >even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the > > >publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of > > >Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he > > >"discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted > > >the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to > > >present his "book movie, the original American form." > > > The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published > > >novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in > > >standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate > > >generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter > > >with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" works > > >of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." > > > Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far over > > >into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete > > >edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's > > >Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English > > >language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop > > >prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" > > >orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which translated > > >means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the > > >future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to > > >return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of Duluoz, > > >to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > > > Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free > > >Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not > > >like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at > > > through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical > > >forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able > > >to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > > > The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the > > >"crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous examples is > > >"Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, > > >exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to work at > > >their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all > > >showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. Yet > > >when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive > > >work to display at all. > > > The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show > > >you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the > > >dusty floor a perfect circle. > > > Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges > > >were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for > > >his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the > > >most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > > > > > > On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which > > >seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" > > >compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging > > >like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made > > >up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. > > > Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one > > >can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a series > > >of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through > > >deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to > > >use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in the > > >Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating book on > > >the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the > > >course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The > > >Little Cigar Store Girl.) > > > Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous > > >outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F > > >Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of > > >drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also > > >demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. > > > The same thing can be done in music and film, video > > >studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be > > >experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring > > >spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series > > >of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." > > > The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a > > >much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the > > >"spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of > > >composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of > > >spontaneity? > > > The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di > > >Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word > > >"momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much > > >glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be > > >sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being "momently" > > >and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather > > >than "of the moment." > > > And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is "momently" > > >how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a concern > > >with "spontaneity." > > > That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of any > > >concern to Simic? > > > El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic > > >character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of > > >being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice > > >whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional > > >Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of > > >course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the > > >ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of > > >afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another > > >deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the Corrida > > >and its ritual of Death. > > > El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, > > >having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening > > >in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the > > >Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to > > >be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact > > >been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another > > >form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk > > >and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > > > Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein > > >foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which both > > >ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > > > I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of > > >competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and > > >differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the > > >soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is > > >not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more > > >interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of > > >the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to > > >demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is > > >being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to > > >pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of > > >spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in > > >relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and what > > >his ideas on these lines are. > > > I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to speak, > > >this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of > > >"poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of > > >Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to > > >actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the > > >current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading > > >desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays > > >to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic > > >identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is > > >possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their > > >ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > > > All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of > > >ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's > > >thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree > > >100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of > > >course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" alien, > > >not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right > > >to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the > > >"right" humans. > > > I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and > > >forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very interesting > > >and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself > > >for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer understanding of > > >what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as > > >"spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling > > >epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy Land > > >and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in the > > >first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" which > > >are older than Aristotle's. > > > Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?" > > > Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing > > >one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in > > >the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's > > >own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of, > > >one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before > > >confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob, > > >Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of > > >persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, > > >speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and > > >banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of > > >higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If > > >one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably > > >before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > > > That is why, again, I return to the question of spontaneity. > > >Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk > > >reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which even > > >in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > > > It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play > > >employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word 'Culture," > > >I reach for my revolver." > > > "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > > > of it--not one's own, to be sure. > > > Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the > > >spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect > > >Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random > > >with a revolver. > > > One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > > > Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of > > >"poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out > > >for oneself as Olson would say. > > > "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > > > > > >(By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the > > >article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly > > >disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they would not > > >only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even > > >read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that > > >buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge number of > > >books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any rate, > > >there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:31:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710082140hbe77abgadfb99cb23602805@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, I think it's time to see bilingual ism (or tri plus) as a rich advantage for a poem/poet - and, also, a genuine mirror of the global space in which multiple languages are intersecting and modifying each other more than ever. I find odd (if not silly) - if that is what Diane and Mark are really saying - the idea that Charles Simic cannot really hear and write with a full knowledge of English subtleties, nuances, etc. (I think he came here in high school by the way). The limits - when Simic comes to reading Creeley - should be just pointed out as that. Dipping into an "English first" bias can be interpreted/seen as an ethnocentric bias at the root of too many other issues. I think it's time - and this will become more frequent in generations to come - that the work of a bi-lingual poet such a Victor Hernandez Cruz will become "the norm" - where his Spanish via Puerto-Rico and English via this country find real interesting collisions and juxtapositions. (I happen to think that fully bilingual poets/writers can bring more strategies to the table). What if WCW and Zukofsky - for example - had written in forms that had combined both of their languages. I am sure this notion of such combinations will be anathema to various forms of gated communities (intellectual and otherwise) in the US and elsewhere. And not the coming adventure - particularly as USA hegemony begins to disintegrate, global migrations expand and English becomes much more subtle and variant. Of course, in the struggle to preserve or create 'new standards' these changes will be madly resisted, fought over, etc. That, too, will be part of the adventure. Stephen V Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: Mark, Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word of English until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from writing what I want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final analysis (look I dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the consciousness about language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. I do not know if you are aware of the number of major American poets whose first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, to name a few. One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the poet must experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in detail in the essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley learns this alienation from Zukofsky. David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though to achieve that freedom may take years? Ciao, Murat On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, > not least the starkness of the opposition you put > forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking > about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed > response. One point I think does need making. > Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic > games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be > that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read > Creeley‹and perhaps many other American poets. It > is hard‹almost impossible--to hear all the > layerings of meaning in any but your native > tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition > of a native ear for all the subtlties of language > and dialect is very rare after early childhood. > One can write very well in the acquired language, > of course, without that degree of awareness of > the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > > I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on > the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a > largely English-speaking environment since his > 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and > virtually flawless, and barely accented. > Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like > the depth of awareness of English that he has of > Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the > nuances of a Spanish word and the English > approximations I planned to use, and he was > usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. > > Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to > confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and > Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was > decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its > formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue > the least subtle effects--those he or she can > hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan > Thomas, for example, is much more popular among > Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and > Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones > than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As > to Kerouac, his early separation from English was > nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as > Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. > > I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's > going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US > poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of native > speakers. > > Mark > > > At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > > In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of > >"El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an > >aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some > >passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to > >himself rather than the "real" Matador. > > The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world > >of the professional ritual of Death! > > Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and > >keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the reappearance > >of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El > >Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring > >insures repeat performances. > > One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality > >and turn it into their own personal mythology. > > El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the > >confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the > >encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of ritual, > >of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > > El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with > >windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real life > >robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights > >who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the > >keepers of the gates of the Real. > > > > Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody > >against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue > >from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket > >notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the > >worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done > >with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world around > >him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s > >sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual > >language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language > >speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of Simic's > >status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac worked > >with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. > >Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" > >qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many > >volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane speeds. > >"Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he said, > >while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." > > As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in > >the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with Death > >and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and > >continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that > >even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the > >publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of > >Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he > >"discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted > >the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to > >present his "book movie, the original American form." > > The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published > >novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in > >standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate > >generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter > >with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" works > >of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." > > Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far over > >into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete > >edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's > >Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English > >language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop > >prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" > >orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which translated > >means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the > >future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to > >return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of Duluoz, > >to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > > Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free > >Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not > >like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at > > through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical > >forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able > >to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > > The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the > >"crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous examples is > >"Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, > >exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to work at > >their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all > >showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. Yet > >when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive > >work to display at all. > > The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show > >you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the > >dusty floor a perfect circle. > > Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges > >were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for > >his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the > >most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > > > > On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which > >seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" > >compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging > >like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made > >up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. > > Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one > >can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a series > >of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through > >deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to > >use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in the > >Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating book on > >the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the > >course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The > >Little Cigar Store Girl.) > > Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous > >outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F > >Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of > >drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also > >demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. > > The same thing can be done in music and film, video > >studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be > >experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring > >spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series > >of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." > > The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a > >much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the > >"spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of > >composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of > >spontaneity? > > The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di > >Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word > >"momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much > >glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be > >sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being "momently" > >and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather > >than "of the moment." > > And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is "momently" > >how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a concern > >with "spontaneity." > > That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of any > >concern to Simic? > > El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic > >character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of > >being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice > >whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional > >Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of > >course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the > >ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of > >afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another > >deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the Corrida > >and its ritual of Death. > > El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, > >having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening > >in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the > >Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to > >be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact > >been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another > >form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk > >and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > > Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein > >foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which both > >ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > > I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of > >competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and > >differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the > >soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is > >not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more > >interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of > >the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to > >demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is > >being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to > >pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of > >spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in > >relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and what > >his ideas on these lines are. > > I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to speak, > >this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of > >"poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of > >Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to > >actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the > >current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading > >desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays > >to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic > >identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is > >possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their > >ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > > All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of > >ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's > >thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree > >100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of > >course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" alien, > >not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right > >to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the > >"right" humans. > > I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and > >forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very interesting > >and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself > >for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer understanding of > >what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as > >"spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling > >epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy Land > >and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in the > >first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" which > >are older than Aristotle's. > > Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?" > > Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing > >one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in > >the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's > >own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of, > >one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before > >confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob, > >Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of > >persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, > >speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and > >banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of > >higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If > >one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably > >before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > > That is why, again, I return to the question of spontaneity. > >Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk > >reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which even > >in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > > It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play > >employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word 'Culture," > >I reach for my revolver." > > "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > > of it--not one's own, to be sure. > > Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the > >spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect > >Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random > >with a revolver. > > One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > > Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of > >"poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out > >for oneself as Olson would say. > > "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > > > >(By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the > >article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly > >disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they would not > >only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even > >read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that > >buying and reading are meant to be"=". Heck, I read a huge number of > >books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any rate, > >there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 16:35:17 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: language acquisition In-Reply-To: <802428.25854.qm@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whoa! I'm with you all along, and then you blow it with "the racist French"--which suddenly sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, if you know what I mean. Where did this heinous stereotyping of a people come from? If you are American, in particular--as I am--you have no right to fob this off on anyone else. After all, how much racism have we spewed into the world? Alexander Dickow wrote: Mark, This is said in all friendliness and for the sake of discussion, and I bear you only goodwill (saying that just in case I sound wounding anywhere on accident), but this is a very interesting issue to me, so here goes. You claim the widely-held opinion that a second language cannot be "fully" acquired and mastered after age 18, ie to a comparable level as the native tongue. (I'm approximating your nuance to some extent, but yours is a variant of the same view, which I've usually heard or read with *much* younger ages, to your credit: 12 or 15, eg). The Creeley vs. Simic thing aside, I think this view of second language acquisition (see below for your quote) is a harmful received idea. There may be a very minimal degree of biological accuracy, sure, *perhaps*, but in that case maybe without much basis in research (not that I've checked into that closely, admittedly...). I've spoken repeatedly with two specialists in applied linguistics about this, in public and in private (one an important scholar, -- and a chomskian, to boot!): both agreed, this opinion about the limits of linguistic mastery possible after puberty has no basis in fact and is no more than widely assumed conjecture. One of these specialists expressed slight scorn for the notion, as a cliche accepted by people outside the discipline. More importantly, issues of language mastery are so often used to dismiss or disparage "second-language" writers (especially when language is doubled with perceived racial difference), that this opinion is best avoided. Who wants to adopt as their own the opinions of the racist French (and elsewhere, probably) editorial milieu? I think that's a compelling reason to simply assume this idea about language acquisition is false, or at least assume just about *anything* before I assume a person has imperfect mastery of a second language.... Accent, for example, is often a basis for such judgments, but I've seen time and time again that the extent of a second-language accent has no necessary relation whatsoever to mastery of vocabulary, grammar, expression written and oral, etc, etc.... Although I'll note that you don't think Simic's problem is one of language acquisition, and I'm sure you're right. You also base your opinion in personal experience: I'm sure you're right in the cases you've encountered, too. Furthermore, you do say "very rare" rather than "never": but "very rare" is a slippery word, and I would suggest rather too vague. What a difficult thing to measure, after all! Fascinating discussion, in any event. Amicalement, Alex Mark Weiss wrote: >David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways,=20 >not least the starkness of the opposition you put=20 forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking=20 about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed=20 response. One point I think does need making.=20 Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic=20 games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be=20 that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read=20 Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It=20 is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all the=20 layerings of meaning in any but your native=20 tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition=20 of a native ear for all the subtlties of language=20 and dialect is very rare after early childhood.=20 One can write very well in the acquired language,=20 of course, without that degree of awareness of=20 the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:37:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: language acquisition In-Reply-To: <802428.25854.qm@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex: I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of=20 them were raised in environments where two=20 languages were spoken, whether at home or in the=20 streets. I've noticed young children in bilingual=20 environments who speak one language to their=20 mothers and another to their fathers. I've asked=20 bilingual adults about their memories of early=20 childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized their=20 bilingualism at that age. They've all told me the=20 same thing--they simply spoke the appropriate=20 language, French, say, to daddy, english to=20 mommy, without really conceptualizing them as=20 different languages, much as one learns early to=20 speak the same language differently to one's=20 parents and to one's playmates. I see this all=20 the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way. I also have a great many friends who approach=20 bilinguality but come from monolingual=20 backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They=20 have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply=20 don't have. Many of them are professional=20 translators. None of them have claimed to me to=20 be fully bilingual--the second language remains a=20 learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. Think of it this way. I actively remember the=20 early acquisition of only a couple of non-learned=20 words in English. Those words are forever=20 associated with a place and a time. In French and=20 Spanish there are a great many such words. I may=20 not think about their origins for me very often,=20 but I do when I find myself using them with the=20 person from whom I learned them. Which for a=20 moment bifurcates my apprehension of the language=20 in a way particular to that kind of encounter. Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My=20 Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my=20 French is a bit better than "practical" and my=20 Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both=20 the latter). At one point, when I was living in=20 France, I hoped that I might become something=20 closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of=20 that possibility when I spoke to children or=20 overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was=20 reminded that I would never be anything like an=20 unconscious speaker of the babytalk or adolescent=20 cant appropriate to my generation. I would also=20 never have the associational vocabulary that=20 indicates the parents' or grandparents'=20 generation, nor the emotional response to same.=20 With an effort I could learn them as a stranger=20 (and as a translator I have had to learn some of=20 this), but it would never become familiar, unconscious usage. On one occasion I was walking through the East=20 Village with two visiting French friends. They=20 had been a couple for a long time. One of them=20 suddenly began to speak a language I'd never=20 heard before. The other answered. The saw my=20 surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the=20 French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat pass=E9, I'm told. None of this means that one can't learn a=20 profound degree of competence in a new language.=20 It does suggest that what one learns isn't a=20 native's competence. It's a difference, but in no=20 way a disqualification. Looked at closely enough,=20 we each speak our unique dialect, which contains=20 more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. Mark At 08:05 AM 10/9/2007, you wrote: >Mark, >This is said in all friendliness and for the sake of >discussion, and I bear you only goodwill (saying that >just in case I sound wounding anywhere on accident), >but this is a very interesting issue to me, so here >goes. >You claim the widely-held opinion that a second >language cannot be "fully" acquired and mastered after >age 18, ie to a comparable level as the native tongue. >(I'm approximating your nuance to some extent, but >yours is a variant of the same view, which I've >usually heard or read with *much* younger ages, to >your credit: 12 or 15, eg). >The Creeley vs. Simic thing aside, I think this view >of second language acquisition (see below for your >quote) is a harmful received idea. There may be a very >minimal degree of biological accuracy, sure, >*perhaps*, but in that case maybe without much basis >in research (not that I've checked into that closely, >admittedly...). >I've spoken repeatedly with two specialists in applied >linguistics about this, in public and in private (one >an important scholar, -- and a chomskian, to boot!): >both agreed, this opinion about the limits of >linguistic mastery possible after puberty has no basis >in fact and is no more than widely assumed conjecture. >One of these specialists expressed slight scorn for >the notion, as a cliche accepted by people outside the >discipline. >More importantly, issues of language mastery are so >often used to dismiss or disparage "second-language" >writers (especially when language is doubled with >perceived racial difference), that this opinion is >best avoided. Who wants to adopt as their own the >opinions of the racist French (and elsewhere, >probably) editorial milieu? I think that's a >compelling reason to simply assume this idea about >language acquisition is false, or at least assume just >about *anything* before I assume a person has >imperfect mastery of a second language.... >Accent, for example, is often a basis for such >judgments, but I've seen time and time again that the >extent of a second-language accent has no necessary >relation whatsoever to mastery of vocabulary, grammar, >expression written and oral, etc, etc.... >Although I'll note that you don't think Simic's >problem is one of language acquisition, and I'm sure >you're right. You also base your opinion in personal >experience: I'm sure you're right in the cases you've >encountered, too. Furthermore, you do say "very rare" >rather than "never": but "very rare" is a slippery >word, and I would suggest rather too vague. What a >difficult thing to measure, after all! >Fascinating discussion, in any event. >Amicalement, >Alex > >Mark Weiss wrote: > >David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways,=3D20 > >not least the starkness of the opposition you put=3D20 >forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking=3D20 >about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed=3D20 >response. One point I think does need making.=3D20 >Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic=3D20 >games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be=3D20 >that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read=3D20 >Creeley=3D8Band perhaps many other American poets. It=3D20 >is hard=3D8Balmost impossible--to hear all the=3D20 >layerings of meaning in any but your native=3D20 >tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition=3D20 >of a native ear for all the subtlties of language=3D20 >and dialect is very rare after early childhood.=3D20 >One can write very well in the acquired language,=3D20 >of course, without that degree of awareness of=3D20 >the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > > >www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:58:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Oct 17-20: Gwendolyn Brooks Writers=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=92?= Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On October 17-20, 2007, the Gwendolyn Brooks Center for Black Literature and Creative Writing will host the 17th Annual Gwendolyn Brooks Writers’ Conference at Chicago State University, entitled Fine Fury: A Celebration of Gwendolyn Brooks at 90. Special invited guests at the conference include internationally renowned poets Sonia Sanchez and Martin Espada, novelist Tayari Jones and Dr. Donda West (mother of renowned rapper-producer Kanye West), and others. http://www.csu.edu/GwendolynBrooks/conferencehighlights.htm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:05:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Holdthresh Subject: Huge Reading in Chicago. Comments: To: wallegre@iun.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CHICAGO POETS READ FROM THE CITY VISIBLE Cracked Slab Books is pleased to announce a reading by poets of its new anthology, The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century, on October 20th at 7:00 p.m. at 3617 W Belle Plaine Ave. (Gethsemane Evangelical Church—yes, in the church). The readers will include: Nick Twemlow – Robyn Schiff – Johanny Vázquez Paz – Joel Felix – Peter O’Leary – Garin Cycholl – Chris Glomski – Simone Muench – Cynthia Bond – Kristy Odelius – Lina Vitkauskas – Larry Sawyer – William Allegrezza – Jorge Sanchez – Tony Trigilio – Jennifer Karmin – Ray Bianchi – Kerri Sonnenberg – Eric Elshtain Admission: $5 (or $15 dollars if you want a copy of the anthology—its retail value is $22.95) For more information, contact editor@crackedslabbooks.com or call 312-342-7337. For the book, see crackedslabbooks.com or visit amazon.com. About The City Visible: Edited by Ray Bianchi and William Allegrezza, this anthology brings together a sampling of some of the best poets working in Chicago and the surrounding region. From all corners of the city, these poets are crafting a voice for Chicago literature in the new century. The book contains work from the following poets: Jennifer Scappettone * Suzanne Buffam * Srikanth Reddy * Robyn Schiff * Nick Twemlow * John Tipton * Eric Elshtain * David Pavelich * Peter O’Leary * William Fuller * Michael O’Leary * Mark Tardi * Erica Bernheim * Michael Antonucci * Chris Glomski * Garin Cycholl * Luis Urrea * Kristy Odelius * Lina Ramona Vitkauskas * Simone Muench * Lea Graham * Ed Roberson * Arielle Greenberg * Tony Trigilio * Shin Yu Pai * Dan Beachy-Quick * Maxine Chernoff * Kerri Sonnenberg * Jesse Seldess * Paul Hoover * Michelle Taransky * Robert Archambeau * Bill Marsh * Larry Sawyer * Cecilia Pinto * Johanny Vázquez Paz * Ela Kotkowska * Jorge Sanchez * Joel Craig * Daniel Borzutzky * Joel Felix * Raymond Bianchi * Cynthia Bond * William Allegrezza * Jennifer Karmin * Tim Yu * Laura Sims * Roberto Harrison * Brenda Cárdenas * Stacy Szymaszek * Chuck Stebelton * Jordan Stempleman. Praise for the Anthology: When Carl Sandburg asked in his Chicago Poems, close to a hundred years ago, for "a voice to speak to me in the day end, / A hand to touch me in the dark room / Breaking the long loneliness," little did he know his city would be so fully and livingly answered and so honored. Chicago is again transformed by poetry. Here in these myriad acts of imagination, the poets of The City Visible give to it again, in Shakespeare's terms, :a local habitation and a name." Peter Gizzi The most exciting and satisfying anthology I’ve acquired in the past month is The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century . . . It not only is easily the best anthology I’ve ever seen that tried to capture the lively scene of the Second City, but it’s a worthy companion to Stephanie Young’s Bay Poetics, which for my money is the gold standard in contemporary poetry anthologies, especially ones that offer a regional focus. Ron Silliman There's a lot of fantastic writing here . . . there s a diversity of expression that makes it a fantastic sourcebook. Simon DeDeo The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century is a prudent investment for any reader of contemporary poetry . . . the book is a nice, hearty, earnest sampling of interesting poets. Olivia Cronk, Bookslut Unveiling an entire new poetic culture may seem like the act of a master magician, but Allegrezza and Bianchi have been on the case a long time and they know what they're doing. Volume Two is said to be in the works, and in the meantime I for one will be ordering several copies of Volume One for students, friends, and family relations. When young poets ask me, where should I go, what should I do, nowadays I always say pull out a map, throw in a dart. X marks the spot, but Chicago is the most exciting scene around. Years from now we'll be looking back at the early 21st century and wishing we'd all relocated there at this time in poetry history. Kevin Killian --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:46:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: 'Ezra Pound and the Romantic Ideal' (article on Pound's poetic conservatism) Comments: To: british-poets@jiscmail.ac.uk, wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu http://www.dur.ac.uk/postgraduate.english/JSideEPoundRomanticIdeal.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:24:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jilly Dybka Subject: The Gulf between Love and Hate is No Greater than 6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline My brother has posted a lecture: The Gulf between Love and Hate is No Greater than 6 Experiments in Language, Literature, and Mathematics http://jzimba.blogspot.com/2007/10/75th-anniversary-lecture.html Take care Jilly -- Jilly Dybka, WA4CZD jilly9@gmail.com Blog: http://www.poetryhut.com/wordpress/ Jazz: http://cdbaby.com/cd/dybka Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <922287.92549.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure quite what I'm being accused of--I=20 don't see how I could have made it clearer that I=20 don't think Simic's resistance to a kind of=20 poetry has anything to do with English=20 competency. And as you know, Stephen, I've gone=20 to greater lengths than most to extend the=20 boundaries, at the cost of enormous labor. Still, it's a relief to know that in this case=20 being flamed as odd or silly or ethnocentric is=20 conditional upon your English comprehension.=20 Otherwise I'd be seriously annoyed. From my point of view, the discussion of=20 bilingualism and the degrees thereof is separate=20 from the discussion of Simic, from which it=20 sprang. But maybe this subject has been entered=20 in the index of the forbidden, like so much=20 discussion of difference, so that even raising it=20 makes one subject to whatever epithet you wish to=20 use. That would be a pity. Reasoned discussion=20 may be less fun than insults, but it can be I think more useful. I haven't been counting, but I must have used up=20 my allowance for the day, which means that I can=20 only continue this discussion backchannel. Mark At 11:31 AM 10/9/2007, you wrote: >Yes, I think it's time to see bilingual ism (or=20 >tri plus) as a rich advantage for a poem/poet -=20 >and, also, a genuine mirror of the global space=20 >in which multiple languages are intersecting and=20 >modifying each other more than ever. > I find odd (if not silly) - if that is what=20 > Diane and Mark are really saying - the idea=20 > that Charles Simic cannot really hear and write=20 > with a full knowledge of English subtleties,=20 > nuances, etc. (I think he came here in high school by the way). >The limits - when Simic comes to reading Creeley=20 >- should be just pointed out as that. Dipping=20 >into an "English first" bias can be=20 >interpreted/seen as an ethnocentric bias at the root of too many other= issues. > > I think it's time - and this will become more=20 > frequent in generations to come - that the work=20 > of a bi-lingual poet such a Victor Hernandez=20 > Cruz will become "the norm" - where his Spanish=20 > via Puerto-Rico and English via this country=20 > find real interesting collisions and=20 > juxtapositions. (I happen to think that fully=20 > bilingual poets/writers can bring more strategies to the table). > > What if WCW and Zukofsky - for example - had=20 > written in forms that had combined both of=20 > their languages. I am sure this notion of such=20 > combinations will be anathema to various forms=20 > of gated communities (intellectual and=20 > otherwise) in the US and elsewhere. And not the=20 > coming adventure - particularly as USA hegemony=20 > begins to disintegrate, global migrations=20 > expand and English becomes much more subtle and=20 > variant. Of course, in the struggle to=20 > preserve or create 'new standards' these=20 > changes will be madly resisted, fought over,=20 > etc. That, too, will be part of the adventure. > > Stephen V > >Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: Mark, > >Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word of English >until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from writing what I >want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final analysis (look I >dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the consciousness about >language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. > >I do not know if you are aware of the number of major American poets whose >first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, to name a >few. > >One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the poet must >experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in detail in the >essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley learns this >alienation from Zukofsky. > >David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though to achieve= that >freedom may take years? > >Ciao, > >Murat > > >On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, > > not least the starkness of the opposition you put > > forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking > > about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed > > response. One point I think does need making. > > Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic > > games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be > > that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read > > Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It > > is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all the > > layerings of meaning in any but your native > > tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition > > of a native ear for all the subtlties of language > > and dialect is very rare after early childhood. > > One can write very well in the acquired language, > > of course, without that degree of awareness of > > the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > > > > I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on > > the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a > > largely English-speaking environment since his > > 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and > > virtually flawless, and barely accented. > > Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like > > the depth of awareness of English that he has of > > Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the > > nuances of a Spanish word and the English > > approximations I planned to use, and he was > > usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. > > > > Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to > > confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and > > Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was > > decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its > > formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue > > the least subtle effects--those he or she can > > hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan > > Thomas, for example, is much more popular among > > Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and > > Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones > > than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As > > to Kerouac, his early separation from English was > > nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as > > Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. > > > > I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's > > going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US > > poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of native > > speakers. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > > > In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of > > >"El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an > > >aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some > > >passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to > > >himself rather than the "real" Matador. > > > The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world > > >of the professional ritual of Death! > > > Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and > > >keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the reappearance > > >of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El > > >Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring > > >insures repeat performances. > > > One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality > > >and turn it into their own personal mythology. > > > El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the > > >confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the > > >encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of ritual, > > >of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > > > El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with > > >windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real life > > >robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights > > >who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the > > >keepers of the gates of the Real. > > > > > > Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody > > >against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue > > >from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket > > >notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the > > >worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done > > >with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world around > > >him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s > > >sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual > > >language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language > > >speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of Simic's > > >status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac worked > > >with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. > > >Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" > > >qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many > > >volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane speeds. > > >"Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he said, > > >while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." > > > As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in > > >the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with Death > > >and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and > > >continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that > > >even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the > > >publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of > > >Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he > > >"discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted > > >the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to > > >present his "book movie, the original American form." > > > The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published > > >novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in > > >standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate > > >generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter > > >with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" works > > >of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." > > > Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far over > > >into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete > > >edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's > > >Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English > > >language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop > > >prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" > > >orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which translated > > >means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the > > >future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to > > >return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of Duluoz, > > >to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > > > Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free > > >Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not > > >like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at > > > through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical > > >forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able > > >to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > > > The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the > > >"crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous examples is > > >"Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, > > >exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to work at > > >their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all > > >showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. Yet > > >when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive > > >work to display at all. > > > The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show > > >you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the > > >dusty floor a perfect circle. > > > Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges > > >were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for > > >his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the > > >most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > > > > > > On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which > > >seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" > > >compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging > > >like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made > > >up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. > > > Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one > > >can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a series > > >of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through > > >deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to > > >use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in the > > >Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating book on > > >the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the > > >course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The > > >Little Cigar Store Girl.) > > > Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous > > >outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F > > >Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of > > >drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also > > >demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. > > > The same thing can be done in music and film, video > > >studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be > > >experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring > > >spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series > > >of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." > > > The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a > > >much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the > > >"spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of > > >composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of > > >spontaneity? > > > The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di > > >Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word > > >"momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much > > >glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be > > >sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being "momently" > > >and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather > > >than "of the moment." > > > And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is "momently" > > >how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a concern > > >with "spontaneity." > > > That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of any > > >concern to Simic? > > > El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic > > >character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of > > >being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice > > >whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional > > >Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of > > >course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the > > >ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of > > >afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another > > >deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the Corrida > > >and its ritual of Death. > > > El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, > > >having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening > > >in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the > > >Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to > > >be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact > > >been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another > > >form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk > > >and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > > > Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein > > >foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which both > > >ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > > > I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of > > >competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and > > >differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the > > >soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is > > >not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more > > >interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of > > >the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to > > >demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is > > >being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to > > >pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of > > >spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in > > >relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and what > > >his ideas on these lines are. > > > I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to speak, > > >this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of > > >"poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of > > >Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to > > >actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the > > >current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading > > >desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays > > >to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic > > >identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is > > >possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their > > >ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > > > All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of > > >ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's > > >thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree > > >100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of > > >course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" alien, > > >not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right > > >to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the > > >"right" humans. > > > I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and > > >forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very interesting > > >and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself > > >for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer understanding of > > >what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as > > >"spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling > > >epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy Land > > >and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in the > > >first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" which > > >are older than Aristotle's. > > > Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?" > > > Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing > > >one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in > > >the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's > > >own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of, > > >one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before > > >confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob, > > >Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of > > >persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, > > >speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and > > >banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of > > >higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If > > >one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably > > >before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > > > That is why, again, I return to the question of spontaneity. > > >Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk > > >reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which even > > >in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > > > It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play > > >employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word 'Culture," > > >I reach for my revolver." > > > "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > > > of it--not one's own, to be sure. > > > Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the > > >spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect > > >Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random > > >with a revolver. > > > One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > > > Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of > > >"poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out > > >for oneself as Olson would say. > > > "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > > > > > >(By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the > > >article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly > > >disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they would not > > >only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even > > >read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that > > >buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge number of > > >books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any rate, > > >there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:29:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: mla delegates ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear all: i would be most honored if those of you who belong to MLA would consider voting for me for Regional Delegate (under Great Lakes region). My name shd be there on your recently-received ballot... Thanks! bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 16:49:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: L Trent Subject: Sixth Issue of 21 Stars Review Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The sixth issue of 21 Stars Review, featuring work by Mark Baumer, Jeff Calhoun, Catie Crabtree, Mark Cunningham, Adam Elgar, Daniel Gallick, Michael K. Gause, Joseph Goosey, Steve Himmer, Tammy Ho, Jane Ormerod, Amanda Silbernagel, and Christian Tablazon, is now live: http://www.sundress.net/21stars Our submission period has reopened as of the beginning of September. We would love to read work that uses constraints, innovative meter and form, or carefully executed collage/cut-up techniques. We welcome submissions of both poetry and prose (or anything in between), and we are particularly interested in reading prose submissions for our next issue (ideally of under 1,000 words). See our submission guidelines for more details: http://www.sundress.net/21stars/submit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:30:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Duh! Time for poets and fiction writers to act Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hey! The mainstream world really needs us to teach it a few things. But let's make it pay for our help and guidance. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/jobs/07pre.html Hal Art & Plastic Surgery Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:05:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Forgive essaying to respond to three threads at once, yet i think they are interrelated in very interesting ways. (I won/t be bale to them justice here, but an essay at a start--) Language can play very strange roles in its vaga-bondage from the throat and fingers into the "aires" or "errors" heard by ears or errers, and by the I/eye that reads the notations of its reeds. When i was sixteen i was living in the streets, parks and abandoned buildings in Paris and for a brief spell with a tiny Anarchist cell of workers at the Renault factory. After some operations of the "propaganda of the deed" on unguarded empty police vans we split up and i was back to living here and there. Often there would be many young people from various countries sleeping in a park, or even just eating in a park, and the police would come through and arrest as many as they could. It's thanks to the police a lifelong education began in questions of identity, "profiling," handwriting, finger printing, surveillance photos having to do with language, whether it's one's first or second, let alone those of which William S. Burroughs notes in the Preface to Junkie, "a final glossary, therefore, cannot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." Alex Dickow made a very important point--that it is not only the accent which goes into speaking and writing a language in essaying to learn it, it is many other things which constitute a mosaic-like surface which in turn has to have when tested beneath this "camouflaging" as it were the depths and contours of first a relief, and, if that is discovered, still another level of depths which flow into the subconscious areas of involuntary memories and dreams. Once a language has begun to be dreamed in, and have involuntary memories recalled through, it begins to manifest itself in the outward gestures and expressions, body language, intonations and inflections, which one begins "living out" when speaking and writing. And to go even further into these dreams and memories as well as in waking consciousness, there is the growing frequency of bi-lingual (or tri-lingual and more) punnings and neologisms, collaged and montaged visual/soundscapes that one finds keep turning up "all over the place" day and night. Arriving in this area, one begins to realize a proliferation and loosening of "identity" not only in terms of language but of body language as well. In a sense, one has achieved the potential if not the existence, really, of being a "double agent." As usual with language of any kind, "doubling" is at the very least a "two edged sword." This "doubled agency" can be very liberating and also very "suspicious," even imprisoning, depending on the people, places and things one encounters and is involved with. One minute it's "double your pleasure,/double your fun/when you are chewing/doublemint gum," and the next it's "where the dangers are double/and the pleasures are few/where it's dark as the dungeon/and damp as the dew." I had only been learning French for a bit less than two years, part of that while living there and part from movies and books. (I had gone to Paris to be at the Cinematheque as much as possible; at the time it was the only place to be for the cine-possesed.) It had by then entered dream and memory and been making the bi-lingual puns, and without realizing it had transformed one physically when speaking. The police, ever guardians of the "prison house(s) of language(s)" immediately were suspicious. They asserted my american passport was either forged or stolen and turned me over to the CRS para-military political police. That was to be the first of a number of nightmarish times with them. Many of them were Algerian War veterans and into torture, brutality, inflicting many injuries, some that have never completely healed. Yet one didn't get beaten to death like an Arab in an adjoining cell, whose "crime" was thinking himself really a French citizen as his papers said he was. One time i was walking down the street and saw some people with a table and literature. A man came up to me and said--"You're Breton, aren't you?" Some of my ancestors were from there, but had arrived in Quebec in 1650. Well--i must learn about the Breton Liberation Front, then, right? A pleasant afternoon learning about this and helping handout leaflets and pamphlets. The next time arrested, the police showed me a foto in which there i was, a "member" of the Liberation Front. This time it was "association with a group against the Republic" and this led to another one later, charged with 'terrorism," ironic considering the Anarchist events were never traced. When I went to England with my brother some months later, they didn't believe the passport either. I was put in a detention cell in the ferry and given a whole battery of English language tests, very fast--oral, written, reading. Then asked for plane ticket return, travelers' cheques, and addresses of friends going to visit. My brother had no such problem. He had been living and working in Ticino, so wasn't dressed and didn't act the same way. Oddlly, they believed he was an American (though he looked like an Ticinese peasant) and said, besides you don't look like brothers. Ten years later when I went to England again, a variation of the same things occurred. (In between these visits had read Henry Miller's account of his unpleasant encounter with the British authorities.) Similar events followed me across Europe over several trips, the most complicated one, too long to tell here, involved house arrest in Poland and appearance before a military court. In every case, no matter the documentation, the charge involved at the minimum forged passport and maximum such dangerous ones as suspicion of terrorism, suspicion of espionage. It didn't matter that in some countries one didn't know the language at all. Body language and behaviour was what "told the truth." One had become, in effect, via bi-linguism, a life long double agent apparently. This sort of thing once started never seems to stop and has followed me to Canada and in the USA. Not suspicion of crimes, other than simply not being American. "Where are you really from, Dave," said the officer recently investigating what i was doing while working on some pieces at a site. "The squad car computer 's says you're an American. You sure about that? Not pulling my leg, now, are you?" In a funny way, this makes one wonder if one's first language isn't a foreign one, and from there one goes into the sense of doubling being at the pulsing heart of any language one encounters. Years of being involved in other areas of existence only further this, where indeed the fugitive words and incomplete glossaries that Burroughs notes, become as much as a part of one's awareness and being as the standardized versions of language one encounters when not among fellow speakers of the others. This is one among many other reasons that i write of my works that they are involved with what is hidden in plain site/sight/cite. The world one moves in is not simply bi-lingual, but many, many lingual, though many of the langauges are of necessity fragmentary, fugitive, in continual flux among the ongoing flow of al that is. One adapts to a chamelon form of existence in movements and words, images and sounds, gestures, vocabularies, grammers that shift with the persons one deals with at any given time of the day or night. Walking down a street one watches shadows, reflections for a much wider multi-angled many-eyed as it were point of view. The same operates sonically, attuned to echoes to judge distances of others from oneself, of buildings not yet seen lying ahead or where the openings of alleys are in the darkest night. In this way I began working much more with learning to see when working via the touch, the hands, and training the eyes to be able to feel textures when barely enough illumination is present. Languages found in darkness among the unseen things reveberate through the nerves of the fingers to the mind's throat. All of these lessons one brings to "language" and so one sees and hears in language so much that those who use it are unaware of themselves. (And never let oneself think that is one is "completely aware," of even but a small part of it at all either.) Thus, a person who knows a number of languages may well hear in one of them things that are unheard by those who are limited to that one language only. That is, if one is seeing and listening and touching in as many ways possible to learn just what it is in the continual arrangements of particles what constitutes at any given moment the "language situation," it is often not at all as it appears to be, presents itself to be, or thinks itself to be. Areas of the muffling and deadening or almost complete muteness of language open up, and in them one finds that it is possible that the images of the world so to speak become altered and deformed in a myriad ways. So much of what is taken to be the "facts of the matter," "time-tested truths", al the rest of it, are dependent on the willing suspension of disbelief. Complete fabrications, outright lies, deliberate dis-translations, plagiarized "originality," the smear, the rumor, the plant, the carefully constructed claims of authority, the forgery, the doctored tapes, fotos, videos, the fool's gold are all absolutely essential to the "truth" on which is built "order," "security," "threat," "the market," "freedom," "history," and the rest of the gigantic Language which shoves people about and forces most of them into hells on earth. Every thing must be done to protect and preserve the "willing suspension of disbelief" that is taken to be the "clear" "reasonable" thinking of the "well-informed citizen." The Gazas, Green Zones, Gated Communities of the world are in the early stages of their developments in terms of the architectures of security, surveillance, censorship, the making completely visible within contained areas of persons who are simultaneously kept invisible to the outside world. (England is also developing this to extreme degrees. And the new Boeing and subcontracted Israeli firms Border Fence to be erected all along the border of the USA and Mexico will be for a while the "showstopper.") Confinement on a grand scale becomes the new form, the black hole, into which vanish peoples from history. The erasure is further carried out by language. To eradicate languages is to cut off their dreamings, their involuntary memories, their ghostly presences. Even to begin simply with methods of dis-translation, censorings, bannings, falsifications or forgeries and the rest of the bag of tricks, is to begin the work of expunging this existence of a language, of many many languages. And not only "foreign" languages, but one's "own" language. Dreamings, desires, behaviours, can slowly be disposed of by the continual work done on the fictions taken as facts and truths. Languages of liberation turn quickly into those of the prison, the torture chamber, the "disappeared." The "=" sign in "Language" poetry can become pretty fast barbed wire. And why not? Does it not also need to preserve and protect, become its own gated community in turn? Is this not why the "English official language" movement is such a well funded one? Or the reason only certain forms of writing and reading are taught as the "correct" or the "resistant" ones? In a bizzare way, a great deal of effort is put into simulating in language things which the simulators wittingly or not are complicit in forcing upon others to live-- and a great many of these themselves denied literacy, a nice touch! Language is to be "ruptured," "disrupted," "fragmented," "chaotic," "Meaningless," to undergo "chance" operations, to be given the variety of non-translation methods of translation one can find in various lists of writing exercises, to be subjected to "shocks," to be "interrogated," to be in short experimented upon in the ways a great many persons are. The benefit of this to the experimenters is (supposed to be) that there will be the realization in "form" of what is taeken to be "radical," and "resistant" to the System. This is all very much to the benefit of the System, however, for it gives the "willing suspension of disbelief" its raison d'etre--the creation of a fiction of resistance, while the System uses these similarly named methodologies on persons who are in fact "resistant." The set-up is dependent on there being one "National" language, one conception of Language, one form of "language poetry,""language of poetry," "poetical language" and the like. Paradoxically, the more that there is this "Oneness," the more there is the proliferation of the rubble, the waste, the debris, the broken, the demolished, the rusted, the "useless,"created by its brutal "construction of the New, the 'post'" "condition." For all the cleaning, cleanliness and cleansing imposed, there is ever more of the dirty piling up all around one hidden in plain site/sight/cite. More and more of the peoples of the world live in these refuse heaps, the "planet of slums" as Mike Davis calls it in a book of that name, learning to exist on rubble. "How picturesque," "how admirable the human spirit," say the fotos and captions of a current series in the NY Times for example. "Tourism in other people's misery," as the Situationists aptly described it. Yet, "Necessity is the motherfucker of invention," one sings to oneself among the overlooked alleys and dirty bits and pieces of letterings and forms, and in this already polyglot, already fragmented, ruptured, thrown away, shell shocked, disaster shocked refuse is where is found the seeds with which to refuse this gigantic monomaniacal mono-linguism of simulations and controls. One learns among these sites/sights/cites refused further utility that there is indeed the "utility of uselessness," for in the paradox of being thus hidden, they have endured and still carry within them the languages of dreams, involuntary memories, ghostly presences, the elements of rhizomatic languages which, being fugitive, are not part of a complete or ever to be completed glossary, never to be compiled and "contained" within any one book, any two covers, any one language, any one system. From that necessity comes the discipline through practice of finding the improvised leap of many El Spontaneos into the ring where not only the real bulls are encountered, but the rituals, languages, organizings of the spectacle of Death. Prepared by necessity, myriad tongued motherfucker of invention, can not the El Spontaneos improvize the myriad gestures, songs, movements of a refusal of this spectacle? And in so doing provide a myriad of examples of refusals from which to take elements to continue the inventions of refusals? Marcel Duchamp introduced the world to the "ready-made." Extending his thought further, one finds oneself working with the ready-refuse. All around one, hidden in plain site,sight, cite--the polyglot refus-sings. The ballads of Villon can be heard in all this refuse, in the Medieval art of necessity still in existence today of "les Glaneurs," "The Gleaners." (btw this is the name of a very great film by Agnes Varda on this topic) I do not think one ever attains what is called "competence" in any language without in some degree becoming "incompetent" in a language of living. It is the necessity of living itself that exposes to one the findings of languages in their multitudes among which one may learn to work with basic elements to be opening outwo/ards into and with othernesses. "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself."--Paul Celan "I do not seek, I find"--Pablo Picasso (both of them polyglots) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 18:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: A COUPLE OF READINGS NEXT WEEK, WEST OF THE HUDSON, EAST OF THE MISSOURI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-268828CF; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-470BFB83797B=======" --=======AVGMAIL-470BFB83797B======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-268828CF >Dos Madres Press Local Poetry Night >at Joseph-Beth Booksellers >2692 Madison Rd., Cinti.OH 45208 >513-396-8960 > >October 15, Monday, 7:00 pm >(Free and Open to the Public) >Poetry Reading & Book Signing > >MICHAEL HELLER "Earth and Cave" >"In a mixture of precise prose interspersed with pared-down, almost >haiku-like poems, Heller's meditation embodies the harsh life and >land scape of the indigenous population, along with the ever-lurking >mystery and aura of Nerja's pre-historic caves...." > >NORMAN FINKELSTEIN " Passing Over" >"...what a pleasure to discover these earlier poems... Lyrical, >probing, and always finely wrought, there is a tenderness in this >book that can break your heart" > >ROBERT MURPHY "Life in the Ordovician" >"These are poems of great courtesy, of hospitality: they invite us >in. ...And just as the line between the natural and the domestic >gracefully wavers here, so too does the border between mythic truth >and immediate observation." *************************************************************** READING AT POWELLS NORTH BOOKSTORE 2850 N. Lincoln Ave. Chicago, IL 773-248-1444 Thursday, October 18 at 7pm Please join us at the next Powell's North reading featuring the poets Michael Heller and Norman Finkelstein and an emerging author from the Writing Program at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. Michael Heller is a poet, essayist and literary critic. He is the author of nine volumes of poetry including Accidental Center (1972), Knowledge ((1980), In The Builded Place (1990), Wordflow (2001) and Exigent Futures (2003). A memoir, Living Root was published in 2000. His critical works include Conviction's Net of Branches and Uncertain Poetries: Selected Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005). He is the recipient of fellowships from the New York Foundation for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities, the Di Castagnola prize of the PSA and an award from The Fund for Poetry. He lives in New York City. Norman Finkelstein is a poet and literary critic. Finkelstein's books of poetry include Restless Messengers, and the three volume serial poem Track: Track (1999), Columns (2002), and Powers (2005). His most recent book of poems is Passing Over (2007). Titles of his criticism include The Utopian Moment in Contemporary American Literature, and Not One of Them In Place: Modern Poetry and Jewish American Identity among others. Finkelstein is currently a professor of English at Xavier University in Cincinnati, OH. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) available at www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good bookstores. Survey of work at: http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm Collaborations with Ellen Fishman Johnson at: http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html --=======AVGMAIL-470BFB83797B======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-268828CF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1059 - Release Date: 10/9/2007 8= :44 AM --=======AVGMAIL-470BFB83797B=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:34:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: julia bloch Subject: EMERGENCY reading 10/18: Janet Neigh and Joanna Fuhrman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The EMERGENCY Series Presents Janet Neigh and Joanna Fuhrman Thursday | October 18 | 6pm-7pm Kelly Writers House | 3805 Locust Walk University of Pennsylvania??The Emergency Series at Kelly Writers House highlights perspectives on the current state of American poetry through the diverse experiences of its working poets. We've created an ongoing dialogue about the role poetic lineage plays in a poet's development, and its impact on the vitality of the craft. JANET NEIGH lives in Philadelphia, where she is working on her PhD in contemporary poetics and transnational feminism at Temple University. She received her MA in English and Creative Writing from the University of Calgary. Her writing can be found in Shift and Switch: New Canadian Poetry (Mercury Press 2005), HOW2, Filling Station, and West Coast Line. JOANNA FUHRMAN is the author of three books of poetry: Freud in Brooklyn (2000), Ugh Ugh Ocean (2003) and Moraine (2006), all published by Hanging LoosePress. She teaches creative writing at Rutgers University and as a teaching artist in the New York City public schools. http://emergency-reading.blogspot.com/ http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 18:39:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 9 Oct 2007 at 15:05, David Chirot wrote: > ... It had by > then entered dream and memory and been making the bi-lingual puns, > and > without realizing it had transformed one physically when speaking. > The police, ever guardians of the "prison house(s) of language(s)" > immediately were suspicious. They asserted my american passport > was > either forged or stolen and turned me over to the CRS > para-military > political police. ... > When I went to England with my brother some months later, > they didn't believe the passport either. ... > Ten years > later when I went to England again, a variation of the same things > occurred. ... > Similar events followed me across Europe over several trips, > In every case, no matter the documentation, the charge > involved > at the minimum forged passport and maximum such dangerous ones as > suspicion of terrorism, suspicion of espionage. It didn't matter > that > in some countries one didn't know the language at all. Body > language > and behaviour was what "told the truth." < You've got to become more self-aware, David, and a better actor, or you're going to have this kind of trouble all the time. Part of the charm of the double or triple or whateverple life is learning to fool the authorities. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:04:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: living poetry Comments: To: Acousticlv@aol.com, AdeenaKarasick@cs.com, AGosfield@aol.com, alonech@acedsl.com, Altjazz@aol.com, amirib@aol.com, Amramdavid@aol.com, anansi1@earthlink.net, AnselmBerrigan@aol.com, arlenej2@verizon.net, Barrywal23@aol.com, bdlilrbt@icqmail.com, butchershoppoet@hotmail.com, CarolynMcClairPR@aol.com, CaseyCyr@aol.com, CHASEMANHATTAN1@aol.com, Djmomo17@aol.com, Dsegnini1216@aol.com, Gfjacq@aol.com, Hooker99@aol.com, rakien@gmail.com, jeromerothenberg@hotmail.com, Jeromesala@aol.com, JillSR@aol.com, JoeLobell@cs.com, JohnLHagen@aol.com, kather8@katherinearnoldi.com, Kevtwi@aol.com, krkubert@hotmail.com, LakiVaz@aol.com, Lisevachon@aol.com, Nuyopoman@AOL.COM, Pedevski@aol.com, pom2@pompompress.com, Rabinart@aol.com, Rcmorgan12@aol.com, reggiedw@comcast.net, RichKostelanetz@aol.com, RnRBDN@aol.com, Smutmonke@aol.com, sprygypsy@yahoo.com, SHoltje@aol.com, Sumnirv@aol.com, tcumbie@nyc.rr.com, velasquez@nyc.com, VITORICCI@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A GATHERING OF THE TRIBES AND THE LIVING THEATER PRESENT > > Living Tribes Poetry Series > > Open Mic' with Featured Readers > > *!!Bring Your Writing!!* > > The living Theater @ 8pm > October 21-* Yuko Otomo / *Steve Dalachinsky/ *Amy Ouzoonian > > For more information contact > Gary Brackett, 212-792-8050 www.livingtheater.org > > The living theater 21 Clinton St. New York, Ny, 10009 (F > train to 2nd AVE or Delancey or 21 Bus) > > sponsored by Poets and Writers > > Tribes Gallery > info@tribes.org > 285 East 3rd Street #2 > NY, NY 10009 > 1- 212-674-3778 > http://www.tribes.org > http://www.myspace.com/85980537 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:53:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: "Hm." :: The Heart of Darkness :: Joseph Conrad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I desire to **remind you how brilliant you are. Blogs are stalkers ________________________________________________ Blogs are stalkers Bake bread if you are afraid of them. Love the hearts and minds our hands and fingers are made of. Bait life, do not look close, everyone knows whispers that judge what is unknown do not exist flash frozen. Attracted, repelled, social media. Annoy me, transfixed. __________________ *Compiled **entirely :: CLAY BANES said... Blogs bake bread. 11/13/06 1:30 AM Anonymous said... Get baked and blog. 11/13/06 6:54 AM prprimeau said... WEBLOG WE/BLOG 11/13/06 6:56 AM violet like said... only if you're afraid of them 11/14/06 3:56 PM Anonymous said... hi I think blogs are open door into peoples hearts and minds. Love the blog. 11/15/06 7:13 AM flic said... *How do you feel about blogs?* You feel about blogs with your hands and fingers. And blogs are made of golb! Yes, golb. :) 11/17/06 4:18 PM Anonymous said... bait life blog more do not look close your stinky heart rots curtains of iron made of water everyone knows you do not exist except to crush good destroy into broken pieces orbing wildly in your mind tender innocense scorched blogs are anonymous whispers that judge what is unknown never under cover evaporate light destroy good flash burn frozen solid heart weeps bullets 12/15/06 10:31 AM carrie said... blogs are a social media which is why i am both attracted to and repelled by them. people annoy me and so do their blogs, yet i remain transfixed. 1/14/07 9:53 PM ___________________________________________________________ I have had to reset its publication date for 10/10/2007 8:00 CST So plenty of kids will browse it. Cheers --- Your happy editor & Thomas Eliot devotee --- Jess Crockett denacht.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:38:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: Which songs put feminism back? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bad :: Michael Jackson Probably in the utmost of our (the mean intonation value herewith, 25 to 45 years aged) generation. Who's bad? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:21:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert dewhurst Subject: satellite telephone #1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SATELLITE TELEPHONE is a small new poetry magazine homemade in Portland, Oregon. Issue #1 (summer 2007) just came out and is proud & excited to feature new or lost writing by: DAVID ABEL VITO AIUTO TOM BECKETT JIM BEHRLE ALDEN VAN BUSKIRK FRANKLIN BRUNO GENEVA CHAO CACONRAD ROBERT HEAD CHRIS KRAUS AMY LINGAFELTER EILEEN MYLES JENI OLIN RANDY (an Iowan prisoner whose last name I am not allowed to say) DAVID RATTRAY CAMILLE ROY EDDARD RYAN STEPHANIE SNYDER ALLISON TOBEY and CHRYS TOBEY with a beautiful cover drawing by GRACE TRAN The magazine was typeset on a pair of manual typewriters, and is xeroxed and staple-bound with silkscreened covers. Issue #1 costs $7, ppd, and can be bought online through paypal, or by mailing to 4074 N Gantenbein Av, Portland, Or, 97227. OR, The book is FREE if you send a self-addressed envelope stamped with $1.98 postage in a decorated outer envelope (i.e., mail art) to the same address, or a copy of a different magazine you yourself made as trade. (These kinds of exchanges are preferred). http://nolongdistance.endingthealphabet.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:28:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends=20 I want to thank you for your very interesting input. This is the first time since joining the list that I have engaged in anything close to a =B3real=B2 discussion, voiced anything close to a small slice of my real thoughts and opinions, and I=B9ve learned a lot. What I learned first of all is that I certainly won=B9t send my piece, nor any similar piece, to NYRB or anywhere else. And I remembered again how utterly pointless opinions=8Bmine or anyone else=B9s=8Btruly are. For me, the heart of the matter is the poem. At my age I can ill afford to be drawn into discussions which steal many hours from the work at hand. As for my friends and other poets, living and dead, time will sort out whose work matters=8Bno way any of us can know anything about that right now. (Remember Robert Southey was Poet Laureate of England while Wordsworth and Coleridge, Shelley and Keats, were alive.) Even more compelling to me is the consideration that as a Buddhist I long ago made a commitment not to contribute in any way to discord within the sangha=8Band the poetry community most certainly is a sangha=8Bit=B9s meaningless if it=B9s not that. I had hoped that I was writing without animosity or stridency, but I seem to have stirred up both. This in itself is reason enough for me to =B3shut up and listen=B2, which is my plan at this time.=20 Thanks again. Diane di Prima From: David Chirot Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:05:33 -0700 To: Subject: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition Forgive essaying to respond to three threads at once, yet i think they are interrelated in very interesting ways. (I won/t be bale to them justice here, but an essay at a start--) Language can play very strange roles in its vaga-bondage from the throat and fingers into the "aires" or "errors" heard by ears or errers, and by the I/eye that reads the notations of its reeds. When i was sixteen i was living in the streets, parks and abandoned buildings in Paris and for a brief spell with a tiny Anarchist cell of workers at the Renault factory. After some operations of the "propaganda of the deed" on unguarded empty police vans we split up and i was back to living here and there. Often there would be many young people from various countries sleeping in a park, or even just eating in a park, and the police would come through and arrest as many as they could. It's thanks to the police a lifelong education began in questions of identity, "profiling," handwriting, finger printing, surveillance photos having to do with language, whether it's one's first or second, let alone those of which William S. Burroughs notes in the Preface to Junkie, "a final glossary, therefore, cannot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." Alex Dickow made a very important point--that it is not only the accent which goes into speaking and writing a language in essaying to learn it, it is many other things which constitute a mosaic-like surface which in turn has to have when tested beneath this "camouflaging" as it were the depths and contours of first a relief, and, if that is discovered, still another level of depths which flow into the subconscious areas of involuntary memories and dreams. Once a language has begun to be dreamed in, and have involuntary memories recalled through, it begins to manifest itself in the outward gestures and expressions, body language, intonations and inflections, which one begins "living out" when speaking and writing. And to go even further into these dreams and memories as well as in waking consciousness, there is the growing frequency of bi-lingual (or tri-lingual and more) punnings and neologisms, collaged and montaged visual/soundscapes that one finds keep turning up "all over the place" day and night. Arriving in this area, one begins to realize a proliferation and loosening of "identity" not only in terms of language but of body language as well. In a sense, one has achieved the potential if not the existence, really, of being a "double agent." As usual with language of any kind, "doubling" is at the very least a "two edged sword." This "doubled agency" can be very liberating and also very "suspicious," even imprisoning, depending on the people, places and things one encounters and is involved with. One minute it's "double your pleasure,/double your fun/when you are chewing/doublemint gum," and the next it's "where the dangers are double/and the pleasures are few/where it's dark as the dungeon/and damp as the dew." I had only been learning French for a bit less than two years, part of that while living there and part from movies and books. (I had gone to Paris to be at the Cinematheque as much as possible; at the time it was the only place to be for the cine-possesed.) It had by then entered dream and memory and been making the bi-lingual puns, and without realizing it had transformed one physically when speaking. The police, ever guardians of the "prison house(s) of language(s)" immediately were suspicious. They asserted my american passport was either forged or stolen and turned me over to the CRS para-military political police. That was to be the first of a number of nightmarish times with them. Many of them were Algerian War veterans and into torture, brutality, inflicting many injuries, some that have never completely healed. Yet one didn't get beaten to death like an Arab in an adjoining cell, whose "crime" was thinking himself really a French citizen as his papers said he was. One time i was walking down the street and saw some people with a table and literature. A man came up to me and said--"You're Breton, aren't you?" Some of my ancestors were from there, but had arrived in Quebec in 1650. Well--i must learn about the Breton Liberation Front, then, right? A pleasant afternoon learning about this and helping handout leaflets and pamphlets. The next time arrested, the police showed me a foto in which there i was, a "member" of the Liberation Front. This time it was "association with a group against the Republic" and this led to another one later, charged with 'terrorism," ironic considering the Anarchist events were never traced. When I went to England with my brother some months later, they didn't believe the passport either. I was put in a detention cell in the ferry and given a whole battery of English language tests, very fast--oral, written, reading. Then asked for plane ticket return, travelers' cheques, and addresses of friends going to visit. My brother had no such problem. He had been living and working in Ticino, so wasn't dressed and didn't act the same way. Oddlly, they believed he was an American (though he looked like an Ticinese peasant) and said, besides you don't look like brothers. Ten years later when I went to England again, a variation of the same things occurred. (In between these visits had read Henry Miller's account of his unpleasant encounter with the British authorities.) Similar events followed me across Europe over several trips, the most complicated one, too long to tell here, involved house arrest in Poland and appearance before a military court. In every case, no matter the documentation, the charge involved at the minimum forged passport and maximum such dangerous ones as suspicion of terrorism, suspicion of espionage. It didn't matter that in some countries one didn't know the language at all. Body language and behaviour was what "told the truth." One had become, in effect, via bi-linguism, a life long double agent apparently. This sort of thing once started never seems to stop and has followed me to Canada and in the USA. Not suspicion of crimes, other than simply not being American. "Where are you really from, Dave," said the officer recently investigating what i was doing while working on some pieces at a site. "The squad car computer 's says you're an American. You sure about that? Not pulling my leg, now, are you?" In a funny way, this makes one wonder if one's first language isn't a foreign one, and from there one goes into the sense of doubling being at the pulsing heart of any language one encounters. Years of being involved in other areas of existence only further this, where indeed the fugitive words and incomplete glossaries that Burroughs notes, become as much as a part of one's awareness and being as the standardized versions of language one encounters when not among fellow speakers of the others. This is one among many other reasons that i write of my works that they are involved with what is hidden in plain site/sight/cite. The world one moves in is not simply bi-lingual, but many, many lingual, though many of the langauges are of necessity fragmentary, fugitive, in continual flux among the ongoing flow of al that is. One adapts to a chamelon form of existence in movements and words, images and sounds, gestures, vocabularies, grammers that shift with the persons one deals with at any given time of the day or night. Walking down a street one watches shadows, reflections for a much wider multi-angled many-eyed as it were point of view. The same operates sonically, attuned to echoes to judge distances of others from oneself, of buildings not yet seen lying ahead or where the openings of alleys are in the darkest night. In this way I began working much more with learning to see when working via the touch, the hands, and training the eyes to be able to feel textures when barely enough illumination is present. Languages found in darkness among the unseen things reveberate through the nerves of the fingers to the mind's throat. All of these lessons one brings to "language" and so one sees and hears in language so much that those who use it are unaware of themselves. (And never let oneself think that is one is "completely aware," of even but a small part of it at all either.) Thus, a person who knows a number of languages may well hear in one of them things that are unheard by those who are limited to that one language only. That is, if one is seeing and listening and touching in as many ways possible to learn just what it is in the continual arrangements of particles what constitutes at any given moment the "language situation," it is often not at all as it appears to be, presents itself to be, or thinks itself to be. Areas of the muffling and deadening or almost complete muteness of language open up, and in them one finds that it is possible that the images of the world so to speak become altered and deformed in a myriad ways. So much of what is taken to be the "facts of the matter," "time-tested truths", al the rest of it, are dependent on the willing suspension of disbelief. Complete fabrications, outright lies, deliberate dis-translations, plagiarized "originality," the smear, the rumor, the plant, the carefully constructed claims of authority, the forgery, the doctored tapes, fotos, videos, the fool's gold are all absolutely essential to the "truth" on which is built "order," "security," "threat," "the market," "freedom," "history," and the rest of the gigantic Language which shoves people about and forces most of them into hells on earth. Every thing must be done to protect and preserve the "willing suspension of disbelief" that is taken to be the "clear" "reasonable" thinking of the "well-informed citizen." The Gazas, Green Zones, Gated Communities of the world are in the early stages of their developments in terms of the architectures of security, surveillance, censorship, the making completely visible within contained areas of persons who are simultaneously kept invisible to the outside world. (England is also developing this to extreme degrees. And the new Boeing and subcontracted Israeli firms Border Fence to be erected all along the border of the USA and Mexico will be for a while the "showstopper.") Confinement on a grand scale becomes the new form, the black hole, into which vanish peoples from history. The erasure is further carried out by language. To eradicate languages is to cut off their dreamings, their involuntary memories, their ghostly presences. Even to begin simply with methods of dis-translation, censorings, bannings, falsifications or forgeries and the rest of the bag of tricks, is to begin the work of expunging this existence of a language, of many many languages. And not only "foreign" languages, but one's "own" language. Dreamings, desires, behaviours, can slowly be disposed of by the continual work done on the fictions taken as facts and truths. Languages of liberation turn quickly into those of the prison, the torture chamber, the "disappeared." The "=3D" sign in "Language" poetry can become pretty fast barbed wire. And why not? Does it not also need to preserve and protect, become its own gated community in turn? Is this not why the "English official language" movement is such a well funded one? Or the reason only certain forms of writing and reading are taught as the "correct" or the "resistant" ones? In a bizzare way, a great deal of effort is put into simulating in language things which the simulators wittingly or not are complicit in forcing upon others to live-- and a great many of these themselves denied literacy, a nice touch! Language is to be "ruptured," "disrupted," "fragmented," "chaotic," "Meaningless," to undergo "chance" operations, to be given the variety of non-translation methods of translation one can find in various lists of writing exercises, to be subjected to "shocks," to be "interrogated," to be in short experimented upon in the ways a great many persons are. The benefit of this to the experimenters is (supposed to be) that there will be the realization in "form" of what is taeken to be "radical," and "resistant" to the System. This is all very much to the benefit of the System, however, for it gives the "willing suspension of disbelief" its raison d'etre--the creation of a fiction of resistance, while the System uses these similarly named methodologies on persons who are in fact "resistant." The set-up is dependent on there being one "National" language, one conception of Language, one form of "language poetry,""language of poetry," "poetical language" and the like. Paradoxically, the more that there is this "Oneness," the more there is the proliferation of the rubble, the waste, the debris, the broken, the demolished, the rusted, the "useless,"created by its brutal "construction of the New, the 'post'" "condition." For all the cleaning, cleanliness and cleansing imposed, there is ever more of the dirty piling up all around one hidden in plain site/sight/cite. More and more of the peoples of the world live in these refuse heaps, the "planet of slums" as Mike Davis calls it in a book of that name, learning to exist on rubble. "How picturesque," "how admirable the human spirit," say the fotos and captions of a current series in the NY Times for example. "Tourism in other people's misery," as the Situationists aptly described it. Yet, "Necessity is the motherfucker of invention," one sings to oneself among the overlooked alleys and dirty bits and pieces of letterings and forms, and in this already polyglot, already fragmented, ruptured, thrown away, shell shocked, disaster shocked refuse is where is found the seeds with which to refuse this gigantic monomaniacal mono-linguism of simulations and controls. One learns among these sites/sights/cites refused further utility that there is indeed the "utility of uselessness," for in the paradox of being thus hidden, they have endured and still carry within them the languages of dreams, involuntary memories, ghostly presences, the elements of rhizomatic languages which, being fugitive, are not part of a complete or ever to be completed glossary, never to be compiled and "contained" within any one book, any two covers, any one language, any one system. From that necessity comes the discipline through practice of finding the improvised leap of many El Spontaneos into the ring where not only the real bulls are encountered, but the rituals, languages, organizings of the spectacle of Death. Prepared by necessity, myriad tongued motherfucker of invention, can not the El Spontaneos improvize the myriad gestures, songs, movements of a refusal of this spectacle? And in so doing provide a myriad of examples of refusals from which to take elements to continue the inventions of refusals? Marcel Duchamp introduced the world to the "ready-made." Extending his thought further, one finds oneself working with the ready-refuse. All around one, hidden in plain site,sight, cite--the polyglot refus-sings. The ballads of Villon can be heard in all this refuse, in the Medieval art of necessity still in existence today of "les Glaneurs," "The Gleaners." (btw this is the name of a very great film by Agnes Varda on this topic) I do not think one ever attains what is called "competence" in any language without in some degree becoming "incompetent" in a language of living. It is the necessity of living itself that exposes to one the findings of languages in their multitudes among which one may learn to work with basic elements to be opening outwo/ards into and with othernesses. "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself."--Paul Celan "I do not seek, I find"--Pablo Picasso (both of them polyglots) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 22:48:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: mla delegates ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/9/2007 4:54:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time, damon001@UMN.EDU writes: dear all: i would be most honored if those of you who belong to MLA would consider voting for me for Regional Delegate (under Great Lakes region). My name shd be there on your recently-received ballot... Thanks! bests, md Thanks for mentioning this, Maria. AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:14:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wil Hallgren Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --= check your facts about the birth languages of american poets.=0A=0A=0A=0A--= --- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Murat Nemet-Nejat =0AT= o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, October 9, 2007 12:40:18 A= M=0ASubject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley)=0A= =0A=0AMark,=0A=0ADiane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a w= ord of English=0Auntil I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from = writing what I=0Awant in English or read what I want. In fact, in final ana= lysis (look I=0Adropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the consc= iousness about=0Alanguage this alienation has caused me a distinct advantag= e.=0A=0AI do not know if you are aware of the number of major American poet= s whose=0Afirst/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, t= o name a=0Afew.=0A=0AOne may definitely argue that to become an American po= et the poet must=0Aexperience English as a foreign language; I explain this= in detail in the=0Aessay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Cree= ley learns this=0Aalienation from Zukofsky.=0A=0ADavid, is a poet that diff= erent from an El Spontaneo, though to achieve that=0Afreedom may take years= ?=0A=0ACiao,=0A=0AMurat=0A=0A=0AOn 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote:=0A>=0A> David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways,=0A> not= least the starkness of the opposition you put=0A> forward, which is hardly= what Diane was talking=0A> about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed=0A= > response. One point I think does need making.=0A> Diane isn't indulging i= n anything like patriotic=0A> games when she says, rather mildly, "It may b= e=0A> that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read=0A> Creeley=8Band pe= rhaps many other American poets. It=0A> is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hea= r all the=0A> layerings of meaning in any but your native=0A> tongue." She'= s merely noting that the acquisition=0A> of a native ear for all the subtlt= ies of language=0A> and dialect is very rare after early childhood.=0A> One= can write very well in the acquired language,=0A> of course, without that = degree of awareness of=0A> the idiom, but even that's extremely rare.=0A>= =0A> I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on=0A> the translation of = his poems. Jose has lived in a=0A> largely English-speaking environment sin= ce his=0A> 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and=0A> virtually f= lawless, and barely accented.=0A> Nonetheless, he is aware that he has noth= ing like=0A> the depth of awareness of English that he has of=0A> Spanish. = We often spent hours weighing the=0A> nuances of a Spanish word and the Eng= lish=0A> approximations I planned to use, and he was=0A> usually unaware of= many of the nuances of the English.=0A>=0A> Of the examples you give, Conr= ad never had to=0A> confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and=0A> Nabok= ov's taste in English-language poetry was=0A> decidedly conservative, almos= t Russian in its=0A> formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue=0A> = the least subtle effects--those he or she can=0A> hear--in the new language= , which is why Dylan=0A> Thomas, for example, is much more popular among=0A= > Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and=0A> Lorca's ballads mor= e popular among anglophones=0A> than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New Yo= rk. As=0A> to Kerouac, his early separation from English was=0A> nothing ne= ar as complete (nor as long-lasting) as=0A> Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's= .=0A>=0A> I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's=0A> going on in Cr= eeley and a great deal of other US=0A> poetry is of this nature, though. He= shares it with a lot of native=0A> speakers.=0A>=0A> Mark=0A>=0A>=0A> At 0= 1:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote:=0A> > In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' = recorded pieces, he speaks of=0A> >"El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into= the ring at a Corrida of an=0A> >aspiring afficianado who momentarliy take= s charge, essaying some=0A> >passes with his cape and hoping to distract th= e bull's attention to=0A> >himself rather than the "real" Matador.=0A> > = The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the world=0A> >of= the professional ritual of Death!=0A> > Despite many times being ha= uled away by the authorities and=0A> >keepers of order of the ritual, there= will be always the reappearance=0A> >of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the = same person or another, El=0A> >Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the imm= ortality of the ring=0A> >insures repeat performances.=0A> > One wh= o is a legend in their own mind may take hold of reality=0A> >and turn it i= nto their own personal mythology.=0A> > El Spontaneo literally "pu= ts his life on the line" in the=0A> >confrontation with a real Death in a r= itual of Death. Yet the=0A> >encounter with the bull is denied him by the = maintainers of ritual,=0A> >of the organized meanings and practices of D= eath.=0A> > El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted wit= h=0A> >windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real li= fe=0A> >robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knight= s=0A> >who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the= =0A> >keepers of the gates of the Real.=0A> >=0A> > Jack Kerouac was = the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop Prosody=0A> >against what he saw a= s the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue=0A> >from an architect frien= d, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket=0A> >notebooks the views before h= im, whether the concrete world or the=0A> >worlds of memory and dream. Ker= ouac's visual ksetching isn't done=0A> >with the sounds cut off--but to the= rhythms heard in the world around=0A> >him, and those heard in his head--B= e Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s=0A> >sonnets, the utterances and sing song= nonsense rhymes of the Joual=0A> >language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not = an English-first language=0A> >speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv s= o the impugning of Simic's=0A> >status as such is rather sad). The sites/s= ights/cites Kerouac worked=0A> >with he found a loose form for in the size = of the notebook page.=0A> >Working with the notebooks, from intense memory = and the "legendary"=0A> >qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend o= f Dulouz" many=0A> >volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-= octane speeds.=0A> >"Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an = hour," he said,=0A> >while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's ty= ping."=0A> > As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived= at in=0A> >the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring wit= h Death=0A> >and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at= --and=0A> >continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted = that=0A> >even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the=0A= > >publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of=0A> = >Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he=0A> >"discove= red" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had exhausted=0A> >the met= hods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he needed to=0A> >present= his "book movie, the original American form."=0A> > The opening page= of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last published=0A> >novel in his lifteime= , he explains that this book will be written in=0A> >standardized grammar, = punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate=0A> >generation." In some of hi= s lat essays, he writes of his encounter=0A> >with "unreadabilitiy"--on the= one hand the for him "unreadable" works=0A> >of "craft" and on the other, = others finding his works "unreadable."=0A> > Kerouac notes (so to= speak) that his work has gone far over=0A> >into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing= , who published the first complete=0A> >edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Mid= night" said that this and Joyce's=0A> >Finegan's Wake are the two greatest = sound poems of the English=0A> >language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, K= erouac's Sponatneous Bop=0A> >prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letter= s from "rational"=0A> >orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum"= (which translated=0A> >means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is = a writing of the=0A> >future, for space explorers, and to get published, he= will have to=0A> >return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Van= ity of Duluoz,=0A> >to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing.=0A> >= Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that "Free=0A> = >Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not=0A> >= like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something worked at=0A> = > through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical=0A> >fo= rms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be able=0A> >t= o draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free.=0A> > The disagreeme= nt and discussion about the Spontaneous and the=0A> >"crafted" is a very ve= ry old one. One of the most famous examples is=0A> >"Giotto's Circle." A = competition for a large and distinguished,=0A> >exalted commission was held= and painters all over Italy set to work at=0A> >their cartoons, sketches, = tons of proposed works were examined, all=0A> >showing off as much as possi= ble the great skills of the artists. Yet=0A> >when the judges came to visi= t Giotto, he had no piles of impressive=0A> >work to display at all.=0A> > = The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show=0A> >y= ou all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the=0A> >du= sty floor a perfect circle.=0A> > Fortunetly for the history and L= egends of art--the judges=0A> >were no dummies. They immediately gave the = commision to Giotto for=0A> >his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized em= bodied in it was the=0A> >most disciplined "craft" in Italy.=0A> >=0A> > = On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works which=0A> >se= em to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous"=0A> >compositions, = sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging=0A> >like Aphrodite fr= om the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made=0A> >up of thousands of= revisions, repaintings, changes of notes.=0A> > Or--as Poe demonstr= ates in "The Philopshy of Composition," one=0A> >can first create a work an= d then reconstruct the creation as a series=0A> >of rational choices, made = on the basis of well thought through=0A> >deductive reasonings of the sort = Poe has his detective Dupin put to=0A> >use in finding the "Purloined Lette= r" and solving the "Murders in the=0A> >Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Mar= ie Roget." (A fascinating book on=0A> >the real life case and Poe's fictio= nal "solving" of it during the=0A> >course of its ongoing investigation cam= e out this year, called The=0A> >Little Cigar Store Girl.)=0A> > Work= s that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous=0A> >outbursts lik= e Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F=0A> >Celine, for exampl= e, were actually achieved through a process of=0A> >drastic revisions. Maya= kovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also=0A> >demonstrates this form of arrival= at spontaneity of expression.=0A> > The same thing can be done in m= usic and film, video=0A> >studios--the editing of many different different = "takes' can be=0A> >experienced by the listener and viewer as something occ= uring=0A> >spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long se= ries=0A> >of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact."=0A> = > The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a=0A> >= much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the=0A> >"spont= aneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of=0A> >composition i= tself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of=0A> >spontaneity?=0A> > = The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di=0A> >Pr= ima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word=0A> >"moment= ly." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much=0A> >glosses ov= er the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be=0A> >sroted out = from the consideration of every moment as being "momently"=0A> >and of ever= y word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" rather=0A> >than "of t= he moment."=0A> > And then, if that is the case, when choosing what i= s "momently"=0A> >how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do w= ith a concern=0A> >with "spontaneity."=0A> > That is, is the EFFECT= , if not necessarily the METHOD, of any=0A> >concern to Simic?=0A> > = El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic=0A> >charact= er, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of=0A> >being a Le= gend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice=0A> >whatsoever to a= ccomplish what the long disciplines of the Professional=0A> >Matador can. = In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of=0A> >course, be far su= perior to those of the mundane reality of the=0A> >ritualized encounter wit= h Death. Yet to the vast majority of=0A> >afficianados, of course El Spont= aneo will appear to be just another=0A> >deluded asshole interrupting all t= oo mundanely the Art of the Corrida=0A> >and its ritual of Death.=0A> > = El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous,=0A> >having= well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening=0A> >in whic= h to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the=0A> >Astonished= and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to=0A> >be possesed= of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact=0A> >been able to = launch a career in this manner--or he may just be another=0A> >form of "fla= sher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to gawk=0A> >and reel in = revulsion at his pathetic display.=0A> > Is he making the "leap in= to the void" of an Yves Klein=0A> >foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into t= he void of a Legend which both=0A> >ritual and reality are prepared to tear= to shreds?=0A> > I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into= a war of=0A> >competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers = and=0A> >differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the= =0A> >soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is= =0A> >not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more=0A>= >interested in having the discussion be opened up to a consideration of=0A= > >the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to=0A> >demo= nstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is=0A> >being as= sumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to=0A> >pieces I woul= d rather first like to find out what his sense of=0A> >spontaneity is, how = he considers differences of Method and Effect in=0A> >relation to this, whi= ch then entails a questioning of "craft" and what=0A> >his ideas on these l= ines are.=0A> > I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so= to speak,=0A> >this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful disc= ussion of=0A> >"poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in thos= e of=0A> >Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to= =0A> >actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the=0A= > >current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-reading=0A= > >desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays=0A>= >to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic=0A> >id= entiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as it is=0A> >po= ssible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to their=0A> >ul= timate extremes in his country of origin.=0A> > All too often anymore, = as one knows, suddenly the question of=0A> >ethnicity and origins is introd= uced as a means to impugn a person's=0A> >thoughts, tastes, understandings,= so that anyone who does not agree=0A> >100% with oneself and "the America = for which (that) stands," must of=0A> >course be if not an "illegal" alien,= most certainly a "suspect" alien,=0A> >not to be trusted, not to be listen= ed to, not to have any real right=0A> >to being part of the conversation am= ong what are recognized as the=0A> >"right" humans.=0A> > I think if = a meeting or series of them, or letters back and=0A> >forth with Mr Simic c= ould be arranged, this would be very interesting=0A> >and illuminanting. Re= quiring the disciplining of preparing oneself=0A> >for such an occaission = by first arriving at a clearer understanding of=0A> >what one means when on= e utters so seemingly simple a word as=0A> >"spontaneity," would also help = oneself more than simply hurling=0A> >epithets and turning this one article= into a Crusade for the Holy Land=0A> >and the USA before even clarifying w= hat the "war" is all about in the=0A> >first place. Especially when it inv= olve questions in "poetics" which=0A> >are older than Aristotle's.=0A> > = Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is me?"=0A> > = Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing=0A> >o= ne's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in=0A> >th= e manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even one's=0A> >o= wn let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr simic of,=0A> >= one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before=0A> >confro= nting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch mob,=0A> >Alrea= dy every day there are more and more examples in the news of=0A> >persons n= ot allowed to speak or teach or have writings published,=0A> >speak their m= inds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and=0A> >banning isn't bein= g done by the crowd at Fox only, by "institutions of=0A> >higher learning,"= which supposedly are opposed to such things. If=0A> >one believes in Fre= edom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably=0A> >before attacking a p= erson,an article with such virulence.=0A> > That is why, again, I = return to the question of spontaneity.=0A> >Does a "poetics" of the spontan= eous have to mean also the knee jerk=0A> >reaction to any criticisms, any d= oubts, any points of view, which even=0A> >in the slightest apparently "thr= eaten" one's own?=0A> > It begins to sound a lot like that phrase= from a play=0A> >employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the wo= rd 'Culture,"=0A> >I reach for my revolver."=0A> > "Culture" meani= ng someone else's idea=0A> > of it--not one's own, to be sure.=0A> > = Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the=0A> >spontaneous= yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect=0A> >Surrealist Act"= would be to go into a crowd and start firing at random=0A> >with a revolve= r.=0A> > One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards.=0A> > = Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of=0A> >"poetics,"--= essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find out=0A> >for oneself = as Olson would say.=0A> > "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public En= emy says.=0A> >=0A> >(By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before ev= en reading the=0A> >article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," = and loudly=0A> >disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright the= y would not=0A> >only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that = not even=0A> >read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting-= -that=0A> >buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge nu= mber of=0A> >books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at a= ny rate,=0A> >there arestill public and private libraries in existence also= .)=0A> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:16:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: brian whitener Subject: a little simic coda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline the above from a 1977 article in new literary history: "Form, in the sense that I spoke of it here, thinks. Its appetite is cosmological. It describes the soil of its origins and reflects on the act itself. Let's say that it thinks by provoking thought. This is its aim, intrinsically. For me, the virtue of certain poems of Gertrude Stein, Robert Creeley, and Russell Edson, three poets who share this organic idea of form, is that they are thought-machines, without once resorting in their texts to anything that could be even remotely called a "statement of ideas." I like that. A poetry which has the clarity and** ambiguity of that world we discover in the morning on opening our eyes." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:25:25 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Duh! Time for poets and fiction writers to act In-Reply-To: <4D30A6F1-640E-4E97-A62B-FA2D0641F56D@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Interesting that Professor Shirky brings up Asperger's in this context; the comparison fits, though his explanation of how it fits is a bit oversimplified. (Though perhaps it isn't fair to blame him for that, given that even newspapers like to pretend that people speak in soundbites.) Email and other text-only online forms of communication can actually be easier than face-to-face communication for a lot of us Aspies, as we're not expected to pick up on non-verbals. It also helps to be able to communicate in an environment that isn't overstimulating (or understimulating). Moreover, since we don't use nonverbals in the same way as other people, many of us are used to expressing what others regard as emotional nuance more directly. So perhaps the mainstream world could learn from those of us on the autistic spectrum as well as from writers (yes, the two groups sometimes overlap). Of course, that would never happen, because autism is a "disease". Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:44:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: language ack -- barry, mark, david et al In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Barry, Whoops! I was just being unnecessarily flippant, and slightly self-deprecating (or that was the idea), since I have some vested interest in the discussion, being a bilingual French/English poet. Obviously, reality's just a *tad* more complex than that, I'm with you on this, Barry. There's some basis in personal "impressions" for the flippant remark: the first is the fact that one of the most innovative novels in French by a black writer was first published...in Canada (Kourouma). The Hexagonal publishers said it was written in "terrible French". This admittedly also has to do with language politics in France's history, but the case doesn't appear to be isolated, I'm afraid. There's some complicated history involved in this sort of thing too, of course. But I might add that the French literary canon is even more of a "Boy's Club" than the Anglo-American canon (and that's perhaps rather more verifiable). More personal vested interests in all this, yes ;P On a brighter note, everyone should go and read Leon Gontran Damas' Pigments some time soon, I've been loving it lately. Still can't understand why he's stayed under most (scholarly and poetic, it would seem) radars.... Mark: well said: I still disagree with a few details, but I hope at least I didn't seem to be flaming you too badly. Interesting, though, how identity issues get all jumbled up with issues of linguistic mastery, though, isn't it? If people don't claim they speak their second(ary) language at a "native" level, how much of this is a consequence of how they identify themselves as belonging to x or y linguistic (/racial/political/geographical/national...) community, and indeed *not* an issue of linguistic mastery at all? Thanks for bringing all these things up, Mark and David. Amicalement, Alex Barry Schwabsky wrote: >>Whoa! I'm with you all along, and then you blow it with "the racist French"--which suddenly sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, if you know what I mean. Where did this heinous stereotyping of a people come from? If you are American, in particular--as I am--you have no right to fob this off on anyone else. After all, how much racism have we spewed into the world? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 00:52:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Index of Flying Saucer Talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Index of Flying Saucer Talk A noticeable absence of alien skin or other organs A sense that a lot of people who write can't write logically A sense that logic matters more than I thought it did Amazed at dna and probe-hole coincidences An uninspiring absence of saucer memories in the true world Big-time chart or classification grid of all saucer encounters Couple of people holding things on strings Dirty version of the Men in Black Even more feelings that aliens must be really dumb Fake video of saucers over Clarksburg Faked photographs of saucers over Clarksburg Great pictures of top-secret spacecraft designs buried for years I've never seen anything! It's all flat to me! Just being in awe of alien-human fucking sucking and probing Maybe some pictures of fungal jellies More feelings about mass hysteria or mass hypnosis More stuff about film tinting and poems about film projectors Some feelings about really really bad science Some great rhymes about atom bombs and love Some nonsense about analog and digital, abject and non-abject Some pictures of alien skin or other organs that look like fungal jellies Something about film tinting Wondering about transpeciation activities with alligators http://www.asondheim.org/espers.mov Mark Esper, It's In the Air (video of flight) new work on youtube & ning ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 22:31:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: 'Is the internet =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=91killing_our_culture=92=3F?= Comments: To: Santanu Bandyopadhyay , Subhashisda Gangulee In-Reply-To: <20071009.190531.2412.30.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9cbeed14-fee9-11db-aff2-000b5df10621.html Andrew Keen, a former Silicon Valley entrepreneur, has set the blogosphere alight with his new book, a scathing attack on user-generated content. Sub-titled How the Internet is killing our culture, Keen’s book is a polemic against the “anything goes” standards of much of online publishing. Mr Keen does not believe in “the wisdom of the crowd”. Much of the content filling up YouTube, MySpace, and blogs is just an “an endless digital forest of mediocrity” which, unconstrained by professional standards or editorial filters, can alter public debate and manipulate public opinion Mr Keen answers questions on user-generated content and the digital revolution below. ............................................................................................................................................ You talk about the “structural crisis of much of contemporary mainstream media institutions”. What do you consider to be the causes of this crisis? Are they to do with economics and business models, the challenges of change, social and cultural trends, or is it a politically-driven crisis? And do our political leaders have any responsibility for upholding ’the difference between truth and fiction’? Nico Macdonald, London Andrew Keen: Great, questions, Nico, which probably deserve a book length response. I think the causes can be found in both the popularity of the internet and the rather pedestrian nature of much mainstream media. In my book, I talk about a solution in which we combine the best elements of authoritative professional mainstream media and the dynamism and irreverence of the Web. The Guardian online and the FT are both doing this quite well (and profitably). Really good question about the responsibility of our political leaders. Entrusting defence of ”truth” to them is a little Orwellian. However, I do think we need a debate about the societal value of a free press and the way we may, in the future, need to treat newspapers or independent media as a public utility. I think this is particularly relevant in the US, where the free market is undermining the viability of many traditional media institutions. Newspapers or even record labels as non-profits is one solution. I hope my book will at least begin to spark this kind of conversation. ............................................................................................................................................ I agree with much of what your book seems to be saying, though I find it a bit extreme. In response to another question today, you state your book is a polemic and is countering a belief that hasn’t been countered much at all, and that’s why it’s so black-and-white. But looking around at blogs in particular isn’t part of the problem of Web 2.0 publishing the rise of polarisation and polemic? James Doherty, London, UK Andrew Keen: Fair point, James. I think that’s a very valid criticism. the problem is that a very balanced book doesn’t have the same kind of impact as a polemic (both commercially and intellectually). What I’ve tried to do is throw a bomb in the book and then have slightly more reasoned conversations in person and on the web. So far, this has worked quite well. I’m thrilled with the response. We need to talk about media literacy - it’s an important part of becoming literate. ............................................................................................................................................ What’s the initial reaction been so far to your ideas? Are you the most hated person on the blogosphere? Do you think your ideas will catch on? Kate Gallagher, Luton, UK Andrew Keen: Lol. No. Actually the response has been very fair. There are a few people on the internet who think i’m the analog anti-christ. But many responsible web 2.0 people - Kevin Kelly and David Weinberger for example, have engaged in very interesting conversation with me. I’m currently in New York and last night I did a debate with Jeff Howe of Wired Magazine. He said he disagreed with 100 per cent of my book but was thrilled that i’d written it and sparked the debate. That’s exactly the kind of reaction that I was looking for. We need to have this debate. It’s too important now to ignore. ............................................................................................................................................ Doesn’t all of this really speak about human behaviour? Isn’t it all about people creating their own social environments using the technology? It’s not the web that’s evil after all. Alex Brdar, London Andrew Keen: Very good point. I’ve never claimed that the web is evil. It’s simply a mirror. When we look into it, we see ourselves. Often, that view is quite encouraging. But in the Web 2.0 age, we are increasingly looking at a culture which has lost its ethical moorings. Rampant pornography, gambling, spamming, anonymity, identity theft, flaming etc etc doesn’t speak highly about what you call ”social environments.” And it’s our responsibility to improve these environments, to make them more civilised, to increase trust and cooperation on the Internet. We want to be proud of ourselves when we look in the mirror. For most of us, however, looking at the Internet (ie: ourselves) is a sobering and rather shameful experience. ............................................................................................................................................ What’s the implication of your critique for the more accountable environs of a corporate intranet - would you accept wikis might release real new potential in some contexts? Adam Hibbert, London Andrew Keen: Of course. I think wikis in managed, corporate environments, where everyone reveals who they actually are, has great potential. The key problem with public wikis like Wikipedia is their anonymity and lack of accountability. This lends itself to corruption, intellectual bullying and contextless information. Managed, accountable wikis - if that’s not a contradiction in terms - are the reverse. I’ve been involved in several myself which have been very fruitful and a lot of fun. ............................................................................................................................................ With the genie of anything goes “creativity” on the web out of the proverbial bottle, what can be done at this late stage - other than bemoan the state of our society - to rein in the runaway wagon train that is the blogosphere and its denizens who feel that they possess an absolute right to procure the intellectual property of others for their own benefit? Michael Lee, The Hague Andrew Keen: Books like mine challenge all this. The responsibility is now with teachers, parents and politicians to responsibly manage the consumption and use of this media. This is particularly true on the IP front. We shouldn’t be shy to aggressively fight organisations like the Creative Commons which peddle a lot of seductive nonsense about the common ownership of intellectual content. ............................................................................................................................................ Do you really think internet users are so stupid that they can’t see a fact stated on an .edu site is more credible than one included on Wikipedia? Dean, London Andrew Keen: Unfortunately, I’m not convinced. Many new internet users appear to trust websites like Wikipedia as if they were the Britannica. The challenge is building media literacy. The problem, I fear, is that a generation brought up relying on unreliable, trivial and often corrupt internet information resources will have no intellectual means of critically reading through the news. ............................................................................................................................................ What do you think of Wikipedia’s content control mechanisms, and do you think a user-submitted encyclopaedia can be relied upon to be factually accurate or offer a true world view on any particular topic? Guy Carpenter, Istanbul Andrew Keen: I’m not impressed. The problem is anonymity. I want to know who the editors are. I trust Britannica because I know it’s managed by experts. I don’t trust Wikipedia because I have no idea who is running it. ............................................................................................................................................ What is your view on the social implications of internet trends and where do you see it all going? Where do you see the social and cultural impacts of Web 2.0? A Kisel, London Andrew Keen: I deal with this in great detail in my book. Overall, the social implications are an increasingly narcissistic world in which we will be broadcasting to ourselves. Common cultural understandings will breakdown. A common mainstream culture will be the victim of the fragmenting consequences of an increasingly personalised media ecosystem. ............................................................................................................................................ What is your opinion about the Web 2.0 bubble? Fabio Sacco, Rome Andrew Keen: It’s an intellectual and economic bubble. People are already getting bored with it. But the problem of the long term flattening of mainstream media is real. Things aren’t going to suddenly revert back to the way they were. ............................................................................................................................................ Saying Web 2.0 is an endless forest of mediocrity is thinking in black and white. Web 2.0 creates the ability to promote anything indeed, but anything can be very interesting as well. If you leave the arbitrage to a (group of) professional(s), you insert a subjective filter and that what’s Web 2.0 doesn’t do. There are more and more well established artists who became known thanks to Web 2.0. Still, I agree a lot of junk is available too. So wouldn’t it be better to broaden the colour palette and add shades of grey? Jean-Louis de Hasque, Belgium Andrew Keen: My book is a polemic. I am warning of the logic consequences of our drift into a self-broadcasting world. Such a dystopia needs to be imagined if we are to constructively deal with the profound changes of the Web 2.0 world. You only get grey out of black and white. There’s a lot of white out there with Web 2.0 idealists. The black of my book is a healthy sceptical antidote to the utopians. ............................................................................................................................................ How did we arrive at this state? Why are we attracted to amateur output when the professional stuff can be so much better? Said another way, why can’t intellectual quality stand on its own merits? Is what you describe part of broader, progressive forces at work: hasn’t every age introduced technologies that have progressively facilitated the process of dumbing down? Why isn’t the internet merely the one in ours? Phil Stekl, Chicago Andrew Keen: I’m very troubled by your pessimism. There is nothing inevitable about what you call ”dumbing down” of culture in this or any other age. I think the internet offers great potential to uplift our entertainment and information economies. The challenge is to harness its radical potential and success integrate it with old media. We are not faced with an either/or alternative. The future can be an improvement on the past if we are able to utilise technology to strengthen professional media. ............................................................................................................................................ How does one compete against the MTV-istion of culture and art on the internet? It seems more and more difficult to find useful information, to gage what journals, if online, are performing a cultural good, and to ascertain what might be called the permanence of the internet phenomenon with regards to the internet serving as a credible repository of creative work. I am a writer and visual artist, my work appearing both online and in print. Alexander Jorgensen Andrew Keen: We can compete with MTV (or MySpace and YouTube) by stressing the political and cultural benefits of media literacy in our schools and universities. Parents, too, have a responsibility to help their kids consume media critically. I am particularly troubled by the media illiteracy that Web 2.0 is spawning. This is the most problematic consequence of a supposedly democratised media. ............................................................................................................................................ Whilst I agree that there is a lot of crap to be found online these days, how does Keen propose we police or monitor what gets posted? Surely the whole beauty of sites like YouTube is that it does act as a breeding ground for amateur film-makers to make their mark. Although many videos might not be the finished article, Web 2.0 often provides the necessary platform to get the message out there. Finlay Clark, Edinburgh Andrew Keen: This may be true. But the problem is that it’s currently extremely hard to find high quality content on sites like YouTube. What we forget is that traditional media has done a great job historically finding, polishing and distributing content. An algorithm can’t do this. Nor can the crowd. ............................................................................................................................................ You’re right, there is a lot of rubbish online; but what about the importance of freedom of speech and expression? Isn’t it librerating that many more people now have the opportunity to explore their creative side and voice their opinions, even if the rest of the world may think the outcome is nonsense. Polly, London Andrew Keen: I don’t have a problem with amateurs expressing themselves online as long as they remain consumers of professional media content. The problem, however, is that the rise of a user-generated-content media is intimately bound up with the structural crisis of much of contemporary mainstream media institutions. This isn’t a coincidence. ............................................................................................................................................ I support Mr Keen’s concern for quality, but would like to know if he feels that young people aren’t up to the mark. Does he see the blog as merely an inferior version of literature? People who read blogs or view YouTube clips may not be seeking truth, but stimulus. Lee Gilbert, Singapore Andrew Keen: I don’t want to write-off all of our young people. However, I do think that we need to focus on teaching kids their responsibility in seeking the truth by a critical reading of information media. This Wikipedia generation are growing up with a dangerously relativistic notion of the difference between truth and fiction and between independent content and advertising. -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 05:33:22 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: Betwixt & Between III: Globalization, Interculturalization & Translation Comments: To: cultstud-l@comm.umn.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Betwixt & Between III: Globalization, Interculturalization & Translation Date: 28 =96 30 November 2007=20 Given the success of Betwixt and Between I and II (both hosted by Queen=92s= University Belfast, the parent institution of the Betwixt and Between Rese= arch Forum in Translation and Cultural Encounters), the American University= of Sharjah (UAE) and Queen=92s University Belfast (Northern Ireland, UK) i= nvite contributions to the international conference: Betwixt & Between III: Globalization, Interculturalization & Translation Conference Themes:=20 B & B III wishes to explore ways in which cross cultural exchange is execut= ed and/or constrained by patronage and agency with a particular reference t= o the ethics and poetics of intercultural exchanges (exportation and import= ation of cultural goods) through translation. Topics of the conference incl= ude: =95 Translating for the global =95 Translating for the local =95 Translating for the *glocal* =95 The discourse of translation =95 The sociotextual vs. the sociocultural in and of translation =95 The ethics and poetics of translation in a global context=20 =95 Translation historiography =95 Translation and the past=20 =95 Translation and the generation/resolution of conflict =95 Translation and national memory/identity =95 Translation and the emergence of canons =95 Ethnography of translation =95 Translation and divided loyalties =95 Authority and translation =95 Transcreation =95 Audio-visual translation=20 =95 Authority, media and translation in a global context =95 Translating for the museum The conference will generate a third volume of essays under the Betwixt & B= etween rubric. Conference Organizer Said Faiq (American University of Sharjah, UAE) Conference Organizing Institutions =95 American University of Sharjah (UAE): http://www.aus.edu =95 Queen=92s University Belfast (Northern Ireland, UK): http://www.qub.ac.= uk Conference Local Organizing Committee * Sarah Shono, Chair, (American University of Sharjah) * Susan Smith (American University of Sharjah) * Wessam Al-Assadi (American University of Sharjah) * MATI (MA in Translation & Interpreting) students. Abstracts=20 Abstracts of 200-300 words should be submitted as e-mail attachments to the= organizer, Said Faiq, sfaiq@aus.edu, word-documents, in the following form= at by 23 October 2007: Name(s) of Contributor(s): Affiliation(s): E-mail address: Title of Contribution: Abstract: Conference fees=20 The conference fee is $250.=20 Accommodation TBA Conference Program TBA Nicholas Karavatos Dept of English American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0 Play Star Shuffle:=A0 the word scramble = challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= t= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:46:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition In-Reply-To: A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear David That's a brilliant piece of writing. Mind's a bucket full of words, someone said, and sometimes it just outweighs us, our hands refuse carry its weight. That's how I felt trying to respond to your conscience- whipper. Too many thoughts to put together into one body. So, let me be content with one comment. The = of Language Poetry may soon begin to look like a barbed wire - I'll bow to that wit. It's a concern for sure. A real concern. Also I have found the "=" sign baffling from day one. It makes all letters look alike, all connotations dissolve into a goo of complete meaninglessness, all words melt back into one ore. Are they talking about some kind of a hybrid, universal language like Esperanto - that was my first thought. My last thought too. And BTW, "The Gleaners" is indeed a great film, an inspiring one for poets. Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of David Chirot Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:06 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition Forgive essaying to respond to three threads at once, yet i think they are interrelated in very interesting ways. (I won/t be bale to them justice here, but an essay at a start--) Language can play very strange roles in its vaga-bondage from the throat and fingers into the "aires" or "errors" heard by ears or errers, and by the I/eye that reads the notations of its reeds. When i was sixteen i was living in the streets, parks and abandoned buildings in Paris and for a brief spell with a tiny Anarchist cell of workers at the Renault factory. After some operations of the "propaganda of the deed" on unguarded empty police vans we split up and i was back to living here and there. Often there would be many young people from various countries sleeping in a park, or even just eating in a park, and the police would come through and arrest as many as they could. It's thanks to the police a lifelong education began in questions of identity, "profiling," handwriting, finger printing, surveillance photos having to do with language, whether it's one's first or second, let alone those of which William S. Burroughs notes in the Preface to Junkie, "a final glossary, therefore, cannot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." Alex Dickow made a very important point--that it is not only the accent which goes into speaking and writing a language in essaying to learn it, it is many other things which constitute a mosaic-like surface which in turn has to have when tested beneath this "camouflaging" as it were the depths and contours of first a relief, and, if that is discovered, still another level of depths which flow into the subconscious areas of involuntary memories and dreams. Once a language has begun to be dreamed in, and have involuntary memories recalled through, it begins to manifest itself in the outward gestures and expressions, body language, intonations and inflections, which one begins "living out" when speaking and writing. And to go even further into these dreams and memories as well as in waking consciousness, there is the growing frequency of bi-lingual (or tri-lingual and more) punnings and neologisms, collaged and montaged visual/soundscapes that one finds keep turning up "all over the place" day and night. Arriving in this area, one begins to realize a proliferation and loosening of "identity" not only in terms of language but of body language as well. In a sense, one has achieved the potential if not the existence, really, of being a "double agent." As usual with language of any kind, "doubling" is at the very least a "two edged sword." This "doubled agency" can be very liberating and also very "suspicious," even imprisoning, depending on the people, places and things one encounters and is involved with. One minute it's "double your pleasure,/double your fun/when you are chewing/doublemint gum," and the next it's "where the dangers are double/and the pleasures are few/where it's dark as the dungeon/and damp as the dew." I had only been learning French for a bit less than two years, part of that while living there and part from movies and books. (I had gone to Paris to be at the Cinematheque as much as possible; at the time it was the only place to be for the cine-possesed.) It had by then entered dream and memory and been making the bi-lingual puns, and without realizing it had transformed one physically when speaking. The police, ever guardians of the "prison house(s) of language(s)" immediately were suspicious. They asserted my american passport was either forged or stolen and turned me over to the CRS para-military political police. That was to be the first of a number of nightmarish times with them. Many of them were Algerian War veterans and into torture, brutality, inflicting many injuries, some that have never completely healed. Yet one didn't get beaten to death like an Arab in an adjoining cell, whose "crime" was thinking himself really a French citizen as his papers said he was. One time i was walking down the street and saw some people with a table and literature. A man came up to me and said--"You're Breton, aren't you?" Some of my ancestors were from there, but had arrived in Quebec in 1650. Well--i must learn about the Breton Liberation Front, then, right? A pleasant afternoon learning about this and helping handout leaflets and pamphlets. The next time arrested, the police showed me a foto in which there i was, a "member" of the Liberation Front. This time it was "association with a group against the Republic" and this led to another one later, charged with 'terrorism," ironic considering the Anarchist events were never traced. When I went to England with my brother some months later, they didn't believe the passport either. I was put in a detention cell in the ferry and given a whole battery of English language tests, very fast--oral, written, reading. Then asked for plane ticket return, travelers' cheques, and addresses of friends going to visit. My brother had no such problem. He had been living and working in Ticino, so wasn't dressed and didn't act the same way. Oddlly, they believed he was an American (though he looked like an Ticinese peasant) and said, besides you don't look like brothers. Ten years later when I went to England again, a variation of the same things occurred. (In between these visits had read Henry Miller's account of his unpleasant encounter with the British authorities.) Similar events followed me across Europe over several trips, the most complicated one, too long to tell here, involved house arrest in Poland and appearance before a military court. In every case, no matter the documentation, the charge involved at the minimum forged passport and maximum such dangerous ones as suspicion of terrorism, suspicion of espionage. It didn't matter that in some countries one didn't know the language at all. Body language and behaviour was what "told the truth." One had become, in effect, via bi-linguism, a life long double agent apparently. This sort of thing once started never seems to stop and has followed me to Canada and in the USA. Not suspicion of crimes, other than simply not being American. "Where are you really from, Dave," said the officer recently investigating what i was doing while working on some pieces at a site. "The squad car computer 's says you're an American. You sure about that? Not pulling my leg, now, are you?" In a funny way, this makes one wonder if one's first language isn't a foreign one, and from there one goes into the sense of doubling being at the pulsing heart of any language one encounters. Years of being involved in other areas of existence only further this, where indeed the fugitive words and incomplete glossaries that Burroughs notes, become as much as a part of one's awareness and being as the standardized versions of language one encounters when not among fellow speakers of the others. This is one among many other reasons that i write of my works that they are involved with what is hidden in plain site/sight/cite. The world one moves in is not simply bi-lingual, but many, many lingual, though many of the langauges are of necessity fragmentary, fugitive, in continual flux among the ongoing flow of al that is. One adapts to a chamelon form of existence in movements and words, images and sounds, gestures, vocabularies, grammers that shift with the persons one deals with at any given time of the day or night. Walking down a street one watches shadows, reflections for a much wider multi-angled many-eyed as it were point of view. The same operates sonically, attuned to echoes to judge distances of others from oneself, of buildings not yet seen lying ahead or where the openings of alleys are in the darkest night. In this way I began working much more with learning to see when working via the touch, the hands, and training the eyes to be able to feel textures when barely enough illumination is present. Languages found in darkness among the unseen things reveberate through the nerves of the fingers to the mind's throat. All of these lessons one brings to "language" and so one sees and hears in language so much that those who use it are unaware of themselves. (And never let oneself think that is one is "completely aware," of even but a small part of it at all either.) Thus, a person who knows a number of languages may well hear in one of them things that are unheard by those who are limited to that one language only. That is, if one is seeing and listening and touching in as many ways possible to learn just what it is in the continual arrangements of particles what constitutes at any given moment the "language situation," it is often not at all as it appears to be, presents itself to be, or thinks itself to be. Areas of the muffling and deadening or almost complete muteness of language open up, and in them one finds that it is possible that the images of the world so to speak become altered and deformed in a myriad ways. So much of what is taken to be the "facts of the matter," "time-tested truths", al the rest of it, are dependent on the willing suspension of disbelief. Complete fabrications, outright lies, deliberate dis-translations, plagiarized "originality," the smear, the rumor, the plant, the carefully constructed claims of authority, the forgery, the doctored tapes, fotos, videos, the fool's gold are all absolutely essential to the "truth" on which is built "order," "security," "threat," "the market," "freedom," "history," and the rest of the gigantic Language which shoves people about and forces most of them into hells on earth. Every thing must be done to protect and preserve the "willing suspension of disbelief" that is taken to be the "clear" "reasonable" thinking of the "well-informed citizen." The Gazas, Green Zones, Gated Communities of the world are in the early stages of their developments in terms of the architectures of security, surveillance, censorship, the making completely visible within contained areas of persons who are simultaneously kept invisible to the outside world. (England is also developing this to extreme degrees. And the new Boeing and subcontracted Israeli firms Border Fence to be erected all along the border of the USA and Mexico will be for a while the "showstopper.") Confinement on a grand scale becomes the new form, the black hole, into which vanish peoples from history. The erasure is further carried out by language. To eradicate languages is to cut off their dreamings, their involuntary memories, their ghostly presences. Even to begin simply with methods of dis-translation, censorings, bannings, falsifications or forgeries and the rest of the bag of tricks, is to begin the work of expunging this existence of a language, of many many languages. And not only "foreign" languages, but one's "own" language. Dreamings, desires, behaviours, can slowly be disposed of by the continual work done on the fictions taken as facts and truths. Languages of liberation turn quickly into those of the prison, the torture chamber, the "disappeared." The "=" sign in "Language" poetry can become pretty fast barbed wire. And why not? Does it not also need to preserve and protect, become its own gated community in turn? Is this not why the "English official language" movement is such a well funded one? Or the reason only certain forms of writing and reading are taught as the "correct" or the "resistant" ones? In a bizzare way, a great deal of effort is put into simulating in language things which the simulators wittingly or not are complicit in forcing upon others to live-- and a great many of these themselves denied literacy, a nice touch! Language is to be "ruptured," "disrupted," "fragmented," "chaotic," "Meaningless," to undergo "chance" operations, to be given the variety of non-translation methods of translation one can find in various lists of writing exercises, to be subjected to "shocks," to be "interrogated," to be in short experimented upon in the ways a great many persons are. The benefit of this to the experimenters is (supposed to be) that there will be the realization in "form" of what is taeken to be "radical," and "resistant" to the System. This is all very much to the benefit of the System, however, for it gives the "willing suspension of disbelief" its raison d'etre--the creation of a fiction of resistance, while the System uses these similarly named methodologies on persons who are in fact "resistant." The set-up is dependent on there being one "National" language, one conception of Language, one form of "language poetry,""language of poetry," "poetical language" and the like. Paradoxically, the more that there is this "Oneness," the more there is the proliferation of the rubble, the waste, the debris, the broken, the demolished, the rusted, the "useless,"created by its brutal "construction of the New, the 'post'" "condition." For all the cleaning, cleanliness and cleansing imposed, there is ever more of the dirty piling up all around one hidden in plain site/sight/cite. More and more of the peoples of the world live in these refuse heaps, the "planet of slums" as Mike Davis calls it in a book of that name, learning to exist on rubble. "How picturesque," "how admirable the human spirit," say the fotos and captions of a current series in the NY Times for example. "Tourism in other people's misery," as the Situationists aptly described it. Yet, "Necessity is the motherfucker of invention," one sings to oneself among the overlooked alleys and dirty bits and pieces of letterings and forms, and in this already polyglot, already fragmented, ruptured, thrown away, shell shocked, disaster shocked refuse is where is found the seeds with which to refuse this gigantic monomaniacal mono-linguism of simulations and controls. One learns among these sites/sights/cites refused further utility that there is indeed the "utility of uselessness," for in the paradox of being thus hidden, they have endured and still carry within them the languages of dreams, involuntary memories, ghostly presences, the elements of rhizomatic languages which, being fugitive, are not part of a complete or ever to be completed glossary, never to be compiled and "contained" within any one book, any two covers, any one language, any one system. From that necessity comes the discipline through practice of finding the improvised leap of many El Spontaneos into the ring where not only the real bulls are encountered, but the rituals, languages, organizings of the spectacle of Death. Prepared by necessity, myriad tongued motherfucker of invention, can not the El Spontaneos improvize the myriad gestures, songs, movements of a refusal of this spectacle? And in so doing provide a myriad of examples of refusals from which to take elements to continue the inventions of refusals? Marcel Duchamp introduced the world to the "ready-made." Extending his thought further, one finds oneself working with the ready-refuse. All around one, hidden in plain site,sight, cite--the polyglot refus-sings. The ballads of Villon can be heard in all this refuse, in the Medieval art of necessity still in existence today of "les Glaneurs," "The Gleaners." (btw this is the name of a very great film by Agnes Varda on this topic) I do not think one ever attains what is called "competence" in any language without in some degree becoming "incompetent" in a language of living. It is the necessity of living itself that exposes to one the findings of languages in their multitudes among which one may learn to work with basic elements to be opening outwo/ards into and with othernesses. "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself."--Paul Celan "I do not seek, I find"--Pablo Picasso (both of them polyglots) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 05:20:58 -0700 Reply-To: r_loden@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: recently on wordstrumpet: wittgenstein, worrying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://wordstrumpet.blogspot.com/ * The Longfellow of Philosophy : the infamous Georg Kreisel on Wittgenstein's anxieties * In the Vale of Poem-Making : humiliations and discoveries * 'Guillaume Apollinaire is Dead' : Jasper Johns and _The Sonnets_ * The Library of Missing Books : a secret Alexandria * Poetic License and the Powers That Be : "Prizes are for boys" (Charles Ives) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:45:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the regulator thing gets me again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the regulator thing gets me again i woke up this morning feeling ill again, neck hurts, bad headache, can't focus eyes very well, joints hurt, sniffling, slight difficulty breathing, slight sore throat, chest feeling like a bad case of the flue, slight chills, this has been happening far too often, earlier this week accompan- ied by very slight fever, the attacks which are more like slowly seeping states, coming on now maybe four times a week, sometimes five, so the doctor diagnosed a low-grade or background bacterial infection, for years, i remember the first time in buffalo, more recently a few years ago caught a 'lyme-like' disease in buffalo, that seemed to clear up, she's testing now for lyme disease and something else, i forget, something has to show up on the charts, i've given up on psychosomatic, the symptoms come too often and too regularly and with the same sort of background catalysts such as a change in temperature when i'm sleeping, she thinks also chronic fatigue syndrome, it could be anything, both ears blocked this morning, the right ear hurting, 'ear-ache,' tinnitus as usual, i realized i don't know what it's like to be healthy and or wide-awake, or rather that those states occur as rarely as sickness does among most people, i'm a walking inverse, i worry about tia as well, that all this could be leading some- where, but that part's definitely hypochondria, although a brain-scan found evidence of some tia stuff, but that was a few years ago, now pop tv health stuff came out with a story about tia tending towards strokes, more 'warning signs,' the whole culture's filled with 'warning signs,' in any case last night i found a file, WS_3008 to be exact, some slide-chromatic playing i hadn't done anything with, i thought, well then, made the fol- lowing which i quite like, i'm over the top that way, too full of myself that way, anyway for listening pleasure http://www.asondheim.org/bloor.mp3 - there might be something there for you, i fell asleep here on the office floor at the modern culture and media building at brown, well not the floor exactly but a futon that pulls out from a couch, last night actually was awake and feeling healthy, something had given me a respite, it's gone away now, sometimes i'm accused that my work is autobiographical or 'diar- istic' - it isn't, but this is, thought i would surround the bloor piece with an indication of its production and disemmination, i forget how i felt when i first made the original recording, before the manipulation, i think it was as 'usual,' that is exhausted and most likely feeling these flu-like symptoms which at one point i dubbed 'low-temperature' disease since it seemed to have something to do with my body temperature dropping, but that's not true at all, my body temperature's usually low, this has nothing to do with age by the way, the symptoms as i said were around at least since i've was in buffalo and that was in the 1980s, but now they're exacerbated, possibly due to stress and toxins in the apartment we're living in, we should move out of there, but where to go, where to go, so to conclude, we're all bored right now, i'm not feeling well enough to continue, a student's coming soon as well, this is definitively diaristic, unabashedly autobiographical, a bit off the old block on a very dreary providence rhode island day, the sort of day i like, with greys and greens and just a hint of the world beyond, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:54:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent Nomadics Blog Posts Comments: cc: Britis-Irish List , "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out these recent Nomadics blog posts here: http:// pjoris.blogspot.com Allen Fisher in Albany Che Anniversary New York City Weekend Franco Beltrametti Meddeb & Radio The latest from signandsight 800th B-day of "Most read poet in America today" enjoy! Pierre ___________________________________________________________ In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of art. -- Joseph Beuys ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com/ Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:28:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710082140hbe77abgadfb99cb23602805@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Murat, good point. I would like to add Li Po & Ovid, Anselm Hollo and Andrei =20= Codrescu to the list of poets who wrote excellently in a language =20 other than the "mother tongue." Pierre p.s. I do not speak with simple forked tongue: English is my fourth =20 language On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:40 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Mark, > > Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word of =20 > English > until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from writing =20 > what I > want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final analysis =20 > (look I > dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the consciousness =20= > about > language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. > > I do not know if you are aware of the number of major American =20 > poets whose > first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, to =20 > name a > few. > > One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the poet must > experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in detail =20 > in the > essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley learns this > alienation from Zukofsky. > > David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though to =20 > achieve that > freedom may take years? > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, >> not least the starkness of the opposition you put >> forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking >> about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed >> response. One point I think does need making. >> Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic >> games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be >> that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read >> Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It >> is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all the >> layerings of meaning in any but your native >> tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition >> of a native ear for all the subtlties of language >> and dialect is very rare after early childhood. >> One can write very well in the acquired language, >> of course, without that degree of awareness of >> the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. >> >> I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on >> the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a >> largely English-speaking environment since his >> 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and >> virtually flawless, and barely accented. >> Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like >> the depth of awareness of English that he has of >> Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the >> nuances of a Spanish word and the English >> approximations I planned to use, and he was >> usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. >> >> Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to >> confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and >> Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was >> decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its >> formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue >> the least subtle effects--those he or she can >> hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan >> Thomas, for example, is much more popular among >> Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and >> Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones >> than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As >> to Kerouac, his early separation from English was >> nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as >> Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. >> >> I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's >> going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US >> poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of native >> speakers. >> >> Mark >> >> >> At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: >>> In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of >>> "El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an >>> aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some >>> passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to >>> himself rather than the "real" Matador. >>> The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the =20 >>> world >>> of the professional ritual of Death! >>> Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and >>> keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the =20 >>> reappearance >>> of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El >>> Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring >>> insures repeat performances. >>> One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of =20 >>> reality >>> and turn it into their own personal mythology. >>> El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the >>> confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the >>> encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of =20 >>> ritual, >>> of the organized meanings and practices of Death. >>> El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with >>> windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real =20= >>> life >>> robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights >>> who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the >>> keepers of the gates of the Real. >>> >>> Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop =20 >>> Prosody >>> against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue >>> from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket >>> notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the >>> worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done >>> with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world =20 >>> around >>> him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s >>> sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual >>> language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language >>> speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of =20 >>> Simic's >>> status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac =20 >>> worked >>> with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. >>> Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" >>> qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many >>> volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane =20 >>> speeds. >>> "Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he =20 >>> said, >>> while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." >>> As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in >>> the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with =20 >>> Death >>> and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and >>> continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that >>> even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the >>> publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of >>> Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he >>> "discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had =20 >>> exhausted >>> the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he =20 >>> needed to >>> present his "book movie, the original American form." >>> The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last =20 >>> published >>> novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in >>> standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate >>> generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter >>> with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" =20 >>> works >>> of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." >>> Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far =20 >>> over >>> into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete >>> edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's >>> Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English >>> language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop >>> prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" >>> orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which =20 >>> translated >>> means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the >>> future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to >>> return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of =20 >>> Duluoz, >>> to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. >>> Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that =20 >>> "Free >>> Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not >>> like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something =20 >>> worked at >>> through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical >>> forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be =20= >>> able >>> to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. >>> The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the >>> "crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous =20 >>> examples is >>> "Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, >>> exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to =20 >>> work at >>> their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all >>> showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. =20= >>> Yet >>> when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive >>> work to display at all. >>> The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show >>> you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the >>> dusty floor a perfect circle. >>> Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges >>> were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for >>> his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the >>> most disciplined "craft" in Italy. >>> >>> On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works =20 >>> which >>> seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" >>> compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging >>> like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made >>> up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. >>> Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," =20= >>> one >>> can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a =20 >>> series >>> of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through >>> deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to >>> use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in =20= >>> the >>> Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating =20 >>> book on >>> the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the >>> course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The >>> Little Cigar Store Girl.) >>> Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous >>> outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F >>> Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of >>> drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also >>> demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. >>> The same thing can be done in music and film, video >>> studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be >>> experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring >>> spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series >>> of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." >>> The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a >>> much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the >>> "spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of >>> composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of >>> spontaneity? >>> The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di >>> Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word >>> "momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much >>> glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be >>> sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being =20 >>> "momently" >>> and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" =20 >>> rather >>> than "of the moment." >>> And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is =20 >>> "momently" >>> how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a =20 >>> concern >>> with "spontaneity." >>> That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of =20= >>> any >>> concern to Simic? >>> El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic >>> character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of >>> being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice >>> whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the =20 >>> Professional >>> Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of >>> course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the >>> ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of >>> afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another >>> deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the =20 >>> Corrida >>> and its ritual of Death. >>> El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, >>> having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening >>> in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the >>> Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to >>> be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact >>> been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be =20 >>> another >>> form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to =20 >>> gawk >>> and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. >>> Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein >>> foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which =20= >>> both >>> ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? >>> I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of >>> competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and >>> differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the >>> soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is >>> not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more >>> interested in having the discussion be opened up to a =20 >>> consideration of >>> the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to >>> demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is >>> being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to >>> pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of >>> spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in >>> relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and =20= >>> what >>> his ideas on these lines are. >>> I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to =20 >>> speak, >>> this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of >>> "poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of >>> Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to >>> actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the >>> current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the-=20 >>> reading >>> desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays >>> to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic >>> identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as =20 >>> it is >>> possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to =20 >>> their >>> ultimate extremes in his country of origin. >>> All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of >>> ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's >>> thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree >>> 100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of >>> course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" =20 >>> alien, >>> not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right >>> to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the >>> "right" humans. >>> I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and >>> forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very =20 >>> interesting >>> and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself >>> for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer =20 >>> understanding of >>> what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as >>> "spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling >>> epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy =20= >>> Land >>> and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in =20= >>> the >>> first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" =20 >>> which >>> are older than Aristotle's. >>> Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is =20 >>> me?" >>> Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing >>> one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in >>> the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even =20 >>> one's >>> own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr =20 >>> simic of, >>> one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before >>> confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch =20= >>> mob, >>> Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of >>> persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, >>> speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and >>> banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by =20 >>> "institutions of >>> higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If >>> one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably >>> before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. >>> That is why, again, I return to the question of =20 >>> spontaneity. >>> Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk >>> reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which =20= >>> even >>> in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? >>> It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play >>> employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word =20 >>> 'Culture," >>> I reach for my revolver." >>> "Culture" meaning someone else's idea >>> of it--not one's own, to be sure. >>> Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the >>> spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect >>> Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at =20 >>> random >>> with a revolver. >>> One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. >>> Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of >>> "poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find =20= >>> out >>> for oneself as Olson would say. >>> "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. >>> >>> (By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the >>> article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly >>> disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they =20 >>> would not >>> only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even >>> read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that >>> buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge =20 >>> number of >>> books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any =20 >>> rate, >>> there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) >> ___________________________________________________________ In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of art. =20 -- Joseph Beuys ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com/ Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: davidbchirot@hotmail.com sent you a link to content of interest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit davidbchirot@hotmail.com sent you a link to the following content: Oct 12, U of Chicago, Academic Freedom Forum with Tariq Ali, Tony Judt, Noam Chomsky and others http://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=269 The sender also included this note: Help Support Academic Freedom and First Amendment -- Sent via a FeedFlare link from a FeedBurner feed. http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/publishers/feedflare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:59:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable On 9 Oct 2007 at 19:28, Diane DiPrima wrote: > This is the first time since joining the list that I have engaged > in > anything close to a =B3real=B2 discussion, voiced anything close to a > small > slice of my real thoughts and opinions, and I=B9ve learned a lot. What > I > learned first of all is that I certainly won=B9t send my piece, nor > any > similar piece, to NYRB or anywhere else. And I remembered again how > utterly > pointless opinions Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Not to put too fine a point on it, but the criticism was NOT that people c= an't WRITE fine poetry in 2nd or 4th or 7th languages, but that they may miss t= he nuances of OTHER PEOPLE's poetry. This kind of self-defensive reflex is sort of interesting to watch, but no= t very illuminating, and certainly not on point. How many of us think that we are= in fact able to read poems in our 2nd or 4th or 7th languages as well as nati= ve speakers do? Marcus On 10 Oct 2007 at 7:28, Pierre Joris wrote: > Murat, > > good point. I would like to add Li Po & Ovid, Anselm Hollo and > Andrei > Codrescu to the list of poets who wrote excellently in a language > other than the "mother tongue." > > Pierre > > p.s. I do not speak with simple forked tongue: English is my fourth > language > > > On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:40 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > > Mark, > > > > Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word of > > English > > until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from writing > > what I > > want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final analysis > > (look I > > dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the > consciousness > > about > > language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. > > > > I do not know if you are aware of the number of major American > > poets whose > > first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, to > > name a > > few. > > > > One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the poet > must > > experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in detail > > in the > > essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley learns > this > > alienation from Zukofsky. > > > > David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though to > > achieve that > > freedom may take years? > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> > >> David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, > >> not least the starkness of the opposition you put > >> forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking > >> about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed > >> response. One point I think does need making. > >> Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic > >> games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be > >> that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read > >> Creeley >> is hard >> layerings of meaning in any but your native > >> tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition > >> of a native ear for all the subtlties of language > >> and dialect is very rare after early childhood. > >> One can write very well in the acquired language, > >> of course, without that degree of awareness of > >> the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > >> > >> I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on > >> the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a > >> largely English-speaking environment since his > >> 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and > >> virtually flawless, and barely accented. > >> Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like > >> the depth of awareness of English that he has of > >> Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the > >> nuances of a Spanish word and the English > >> approximations I planned to use, and he was > >> usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. > >> > >> Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to > >> confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and > >> Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was > >> decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its > >> formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue > >> the least subtle effects--those he or she can > >> hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan > >> Thomas, for example, is much more popular among > >> Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and > >> Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones > >> than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As > >> to Kerouac, his early separation from English was > >> nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as > >> Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. > >> > >> I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's > >> going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US > >> poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of > native > >> speakers. > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > >>> In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he > speaks of > >>> "El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida > of an > >>> aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying > some > >>> passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention > to > >>> himself rather than the "real" Matador. > >>> The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the > >>> world > >>> of the professional ritual of Death! > >>> Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities > and > >>> keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the > >>> reappearance > >>> of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El > >>> Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the > ring > >>> insures repeat performances. > >>> One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of > >>> reality > >>> and turn it into their own personal mythology. > >>> El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in > the > >>> confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the > >>> encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of > >>> ritual, > >>> of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > >>> El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted > with > >>> windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by > real > >>> life > >>> robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the > windmills-knights > >>> who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but > the > >>> keepers of the gates of the Real. > >>> > >>> Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop > >>> Prosody > >>> against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his > cue > >>> from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in > pocket > >>> notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or > the > >>> worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't > done > >>> with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world > >>> around > >>> him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, > Shakesespeare,s > >>> sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the > Joual > >>> language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first > language > >>> speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of > >>> Simic's > >>> status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac > >>> worked > >>> with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook > page. > >>> Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the > "legendary" > >>> qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" > many > >>> volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane > >>> speeds. > >>> "Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he > >>> said, > >>> while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." > >>> As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived > at in > >>> the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with > >>> Death > >>> and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived > at--and > >>> continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted > that > >>> even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the > >>> publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner > of > >>> Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he > >>> "discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had > >>> exhausted > >>> the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he > >>> needed to > >>> present his "book movie, the original American form." > >>> The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last > >>> published > >>> novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be > written in > >>> standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new > illiterate > >>> generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his > encounter > >>> with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" > >>> works > >>> of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works > "unreadable." > >>> Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far > >>> over > >>> into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first > complete > >>> edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and > Joyce's > >>> Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English > >>> language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous > Bop > >>> prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" > >>> orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which > >>> translated > >>> means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of > the > >>> future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have > to > >>> return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of > >>> Duluoz, > >>> to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > >>> Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that > >>> "Free > >>> Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's > not > >>> like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something > >>> worked at > >>> through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of > musical > >>> forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to > be > >>> able > >>> to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > >>> The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and > the > >>> "crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous > >>> examples is > >>> "Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and > distinguished, > >>> exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to > >>> work at > >>> their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, > all > >>> showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. > >>> Yet > >>> when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of > impressive > >>> work to display at all. > >>> The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will > show > >>> you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on > the > >>> dusty floor a perfect circle. > >>> Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the > judges > >>> were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto > for > >>> his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was > the > >>> most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > >>> > >>> On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works > >>> which > >>> seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" > >>> compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or > emerging > >>> like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is > made > >>> up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. > >>> Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of > Composition," > >>> one > >>> can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a > >>> series > >>> of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through > >>> deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put > to > >>> use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders > in > >>> the > >>> Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating > >>> book on > >>> the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during > the > >>> course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called > The > >>> Little Cigar Store Girl.) > >>> Works that have the explosive energy and fury of > spontaneous > >>> outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of > L-F > >>> Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process > of > >>> drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also > >>> demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of > expression. > >>> The same thing can be done in music and film, video > >>> studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can > be > >>> experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring > >>> spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long > series > >>> of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." > >>> The question of spontaneity itself in writing is > therefore a > >>> much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is > the > >>> "spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of > >>> composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT > of > >>> spontaneity? > >>> The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane > di > >>> Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the > word > >>> "momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very > much > >>> glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs > to be > >>> sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being > >>> "momently" > >>> and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" > >>> rather > >>> than "of the moment." > >>> And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is > >>> "momently" > >>> how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a > >>> concern > >>> with "spontaneity." > >>> That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, > of > >>> any > >>> concern to Simic? > >>> El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a > poetic > >>> character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology > of > >>> being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy > practice > >>> whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the > >>> Professional > >>> Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, > of > >>> course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the > >>> ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of > >>> afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just > another > >>> deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the > >>> Corrida > >>> and its ritual of Death. > >>> El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that > spontaneous, > >>> having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the > "momently"-opening > >>> in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for > the > >>> Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn > out to > >>> be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in > fact > >>> been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be > >>> another > >>> form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to > >>> gawk > >>> and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > >>> Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves > Klein > >>> foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend > which > >>> both > >>> ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > >>> I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war > of > >>> competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers > and > >>> differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of > the > >>> soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and > is > >>> not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much > more > >>> interested in having the discussion be opened up to a > >>> consideration of > >>> the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to > >>> demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than > is > >>> being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic > to > >>> pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of > >>> spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and > Effect in > >>> relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" > and > >>> what > >>> his ideas on these lines are. > >>> I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to > >>> speak, > >>> this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful > discussion of > >>> "poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those > of > >>> Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants > to > >>> actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display > the > >>> current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the- > >>> reading > >>> desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter > betrays > >>> to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of > natioanal/ethnic > >>> identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as > >>> it is > >>> possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to > >>> their > >>> ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > >>> All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question > of > >>> ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a > person's > >>> thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not > agree > >>> 100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," > must of > >>> course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" > >>> alien, > >>> not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real > right > >>> to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as > the > >>> "right" humans. > >>> I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back > and > >>> forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very > >>> interesting > >>> and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing > oneself > >>> for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer > >>> understanding of > >>> what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as > >>> "spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply > hurling > >>> epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the > Holy > >>> Land > >>> and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about > in > >>> the > >>> first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" > >>> which > >>> are older than Aristotle's. > >>> Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is > >>> me?" > >>> Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in > preparing > >>> one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. > Spontaneity in > >>> the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even > >>> one's > >>> own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr > >>> simic of, > >>> one should be even more aware of this regarding one self > before > >>> confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the > lynch > >>> mob, > >>> Already every day there are more and more examples in the news > of > >>> persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings > published, > >>> speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing > and > >>> banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by > >>> "institutions of > >>> higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. > If > >>> one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act > responsably > >>> before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > >>> That is why, again, I return to the question of > >>> spontaneity. > >>> Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee > jerk > >>> reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, > which > >>> even > >>> in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > >>> It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a > play > >>> employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word > >>> 'Culture," > >>> I reach for my revolver." > >>> "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > >>> of it--not one's own, to be sure. > >>> Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of > the > >>> spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the > perfect > >>> Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at > >>> random > >>> with a revolver. > >>> One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > >>> Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of > >>> "poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and > find > >>> out > >>> for oneself as Olson would say. > >>> "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > >>> > >>> (By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading > the > >>> article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and > loudly > >>> disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they > >>> would not > >>> only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not > even > >>> read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found > interesting--that > >>> buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge > >>> number of > >>> books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any > >>> rate, > >>> there arestill public and private libraries in existence > also.) > >> > > ___________________________________________________________ > > In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of art. > -- Joseph Beuys > ___________________________________________________________ > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com/ > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: > 10/10/2007 8:43 AM > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: 'Is the internet =?windows-1252?Q?=91killing_our_culture_=92=3F?= In-Reply-To: <485222.17333.qm@web54602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i think the list took this up some time ago. i find keen's thesis pretty boorish, the typical middle-brow invective against cultural pluralism in the name of "standards." Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9cbeed14-fee9-11db-aff2-000b5df10621.html > > Andrew Keen, a former Silicon Valley entrepreneur, has > set the blogosphere alight with his new book, a > scathing attack on user-generated content. Sub-titled > How the Internet is killing our culture, Keen’s book > is a polemic against the “anything goes” standards of > much of online publishing. > > Mr Keen does not believe in “the wisdom of the crowd”. > Much of the content filling up YouTube, MySpace, and > blogs is just an “an endless digital forest of > mediocrity” which, unconstrained by professional > standards or editorial filters, can alter public > debate and manipulate public opinion > > Mr Keen answers questions on user-generated content > and the digital revolution below. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > You talk about the “structural crisis of much of > contemporary mainstream media institutions”. What do > you consider to be the causes of this crisis? Are they > to do with economics and business models, the > challenges of change, social and cultural trends, or > is it a politically-driven crisis? And do our > political leaders have any responsibility for > upholding ’the difference between truth and fiction’? > Nico Macdonald, London > > Andrew Keen: Great, questions, Nico, which probably > deserve a book length response. I think the causes can > be found in both the popularity of the internet and > the rather pedestrian nature of much mainstream media. > In my book, I talk about a solution in which we > combine the best elements of authoritative > professional mainstream media and the dynamism and > irreverence of the Web. The Guardian online and the FT > are both doing this quite well (and profitably). > > Really good question about the responsibility of our > political leaders. Entrusting defence of ”truth” to > them is a little Orwellian. However, I do think we > need a debate about the societal value of a free press > and the way we may, in the future, need to treat > newspapers or independent media as a public utility. I > think this is particularly relevant in the US, where > the free market is undermining the viability of many > traditional media institutions. Newspapers or even > record labels as non-profits is one solution. I hope > my book will at least begin to spark this kind of > conversation. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > I agree with much of what your book seems to be > saying, though I find it a bit extreme. In response to > another question today, you state your book is a > polemic and is countering a belief that hasn’t been > countered much at all, and that’s why it’s so > black-and-white. But looking around at blogs in > particular isn’t part of the problem of Web 2.0 > publishing the rise of polarisation and polemic? > James Doherty, London, UK > > Andrew Keen: Fair point, James. I think that’s a very > valid criticism. the problem is that a very balanced > book doesn’t have the same kind of impact as a polemic > (both commercially and intellectually). What I’ve > tried to do is throw a bomb in the book and then have > slightly more reasoned conversations in person and on > the web. So far, this has worked quite well. I’m > thrilled with the response. We need to talk about > media literacy - it’s an important part of becoming > literate. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > What’s the initial reaction been so far to your ideas? > Are you the most hated person on the blogosphere? Do > you think your ideas will catch on? > Kate Gallagher, Luton, UK > > Andrew Keen: Lol. No. Actually the response has been > very fair. There are a few people on the internet who > think i’m the analog anti-christ. But many responsible > web 2.0 people - Kevin Kelly and David Weinberger for > example, have engaged in very interesting conversation > with me. > > I’m currently in New York and last night I did a > debate with Jeff Howe of Wired Magazine. He said he > disagreed with 100 per cent of my book but was > thrilled that i’d written it and sparked the debate. > That’s exactly the kind of reaction that I was looking > for. We need to have this debate. It’s too important > now to ignore. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > Doesn’t all of this really speak about human > behaviour? Isn’t it all about people creating their > own social environments using the technology? It’s not > the web that’s evil after all. > Alex Brdar, London > > Andrew Keen: Very good point. I’ve never claimed that > the web is evil. It’s simply a mirror. When we look > into it, we see ourselves. Often, that view is quite > encouraging. But in the Web 2.0 age, we are > increasingly looking at a culture which has lost its > ethical moorings. > > Rampant pornography, gambling, spamming, anonymity, > identity theft, flaming etc etc doesn’t speak highly > about what you call ”social environments.” And it’s > our responsibility to improve these environments, to > make them more civilised, to increase trust and > cooperation on the Internet. We want to be proud of > ourselves when we look in the mirror. For most of us, > however, looking at the Internet (ie: ourselves) is a > sobering and rather shameful experience. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > What’s the implication of your critique for the more > accountable environs of a corporate intranet - would > you accept wikis might release real new potential in > some contexts? > Adam Hibbert, London > > Andrew Keen: Of course. I think wikis in managed, > corporate environments, where everyone reveals who > they actually are, has great potential. The key > problem with public wikis like Wikipedia is their > anonymity and lack of accountability. This lends > itself to corruption, intellectual bullying and > contextless information. Managed, accountable wikis - > if that’s not a contradiction in terms - are the > reverse. I’ve been involved in several myself which > have been very fruitful and a lot of fun. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > With the genie of anything goes “creativity” on the > web out of the proverbial bottle, what can be done at > this late stage - other than bemoan the state of our > society - to rein in the runaway wagon train that is > the blogosphere and its denizens who feel that they > possess an absolute right to procure the intellectual > property of others for their own benefit? > Michael Lee, The Hague > > Andrew Keen: Books like mine challenge all this. The > responsibility is now with teachers, parents and > politicians to responsibly manage the consumption and > use of this media. This is particularly true on the IP > front. We shouldn’t be shy to aggressively fight > organisations like the Creative Commons which peddle a > lot of seductive nonsense about the common ownership > of intellectual content. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > Do you really think internet users are so stupid that > they can’t see a fact stated on an .edu site is more > credible than one included on Wikipedia? > Dean, London > > Andrew Keen: Unfortunately, I’m not convinced. Many > new internet users appear to trust websites like > Wikipedia as if they were the Britannica. The > challenge is building media literacy. The problem, I > fear, is that a generation brought up relying on > unreliable, trivial and often corrupt internet > information resources will have no intellectual means > of critically reading through the news. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > What do you think of Wikipedia’s content control > mechanisms, and do you think a user-submitted > encyclopaedia can be relied upon to be factually > accurate or offer a true world view on any particular > topic? > Guy Carpenter, Istanbul > > Andrew Keen: I’m not impressed. The problem is > anonymity. I want to know who the editors are. I trust > Britannica because I know it’s managed by experts. I > don’t trust Wikipedia because I have no idea who is > running it. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > What is your view on the social implications of > internet trends and where do you see it all going? > Where do you see the social and cultural impacts of > Web 2.0? > A Kisel, London > > Andrew Keen: I deal with this in great detail in my > book. Overall, the social implications are an > increasingly narcissistic world in which we will be > broadcasting to ourselves. Common cultural > understandings will breakdown. A common mainstream > culture will be the victim of the fragmenting > consequences of an increasingly personalised media > ecosystem. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > What is your opinion about the Web 2.0 bubble? > Fabio Sacco, Rome > > Andrew Keen: It’s an intellectual and economic bubble. > People are already getting bored with it. But the > problem of the long term flattening of mainstream > media is real. Things aren’t going to suddenly revert > back to the way they were. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > Saying Web 2.0 is an endless forest of mediocrity is > thinking in black and white. Web 2.0 creates the > ability to promote anything indeed, but anything can > be very interesting as well. If you leave the > arbitrage to a (group of) professional(s), you insert > a subjective filter and that what’s Web 2.0 doesn’t > do. There are more and more well established artists > who became known thanks to Web 2.0. Still, I agree a > lot of junk is available too. So wouldn’t it be better > to broaden the colour palette and add shades of grey? > Jean-Louis de Hasque, Belgium > > Andrew Keen: My book is a polemic. I am warning of the > logic consequences of our drift into a > self-broadcasting world. Such a dystopia needs to be > imagined if we are to constructively deal with the > profound changes of the Web 2.0 world. You only get > grey out of black and white. There’s a lot of white > out there with Web 2.0 idealists. The black of my book > is a healthy sceptical antidote to the utopians. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > How did we arrive at this state? Why are we attracted > to amateur output when the professional stuff can be > so much better? Said another way, why can’t > intellectual quality stand on its own merits? Is what > you describe part of broader, progressive forces at > work: hasn’t every age introduced technologies that > have progressively facilitated the process of dumbing > down? Why isn’t the internet merely the one in ours? > Phil Stekl, Chicago > > Andrew Keen: I’m very troubled by your pessimism. > There is nothing inevitable about what you call > ”dumbing down” of culture in this or any other age. I > think the internet offers great potential to uplift > our entertainment and information economies. > > The challenge is to harness its radical potential and > success integrate it with old media. We are not faced > with an either/or alternative. The future can be an > improvement on the past if we are able to utilise > technology to strengthen professional media. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > How does one compete against the MTV-istion of culture > and art on the internet? It seems more and more > difficult to find useful information, to gage what > journals, if online, are performing a cultural good, > and to ascertain what might be called the permanence > of the internet phenomenon with regards to the > internet serving as a credible repository of creative > work. I am a writer and visual artist, my work > appearing both online and in print. > Alexander Jorgensen > > Andrew Keen: We can compete with MTV (or MySpace and > YouTube) by stressing the political and cultural > benefits of media literacy in our schools and > universities. > > Parents, too, have a responsibility to help their kids > consume media critically. I am particularly troubled > by the media illiteracy that Web 2.0 is spawning. This > is the most problematic consequence of a supposedly > democratised media. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > Whilst I agree that there is a lot of crap to be found > online these days, how does Keen propose we police or > monitor what gets posted? Surely the whole beauty of > sites like YouTube is that it does act as a breeding > ground for amateur film-makers to make their mark. > Although many videos might not be the finished > article, Web 2.0 often provides the necessary platform > to get the message out there. > Finlay Clark, Edinburgh > > Andrew Keen: This may be true. But the problem is that > it’s currently extremely hard to find high quality > content on sites like YouTube. What we forget is that > traditional media has done a great job historically > finding, polishing and distributing content. An > algorithm can’t do this. Nor can the crowd. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > You’re right, there is a lot of rubbish online; but > what about the importance of freedom of speech and > expression? Isn’t it librerating that many more people > now have the opportunity to explore their creative > side and voice their opinions, even if the rest of the > world may think the outcome is nonsense. > Polly, London > > Andrew Keen: I don’t have a problem with amateurs > expressing themselves online as long as they remain > consumers of professional media content. The problem, > however, is that the rise of a user-generated-content > media is intimately bound up with the structural > crisis of much of contemporary mainstream media > institutions. This isn’t a coincidence. > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > I support Mr Keen’s concern for quality, but would > like to know if he feels that young people aren’t up > to the mark. Does he see the blog as merely an > inferior version of literature? People who read blogs > or view YouTube clips may not be seeking truth, but > stimulus. > Lee Gilbert, Singapore > > Andrew Keen: I don’t want to write-off all of our > young people. However, I do think that we need to > focus on teaching kids their responsibility in seeking > the truth by a critical reading of information media. > This Wikipedia generation are growing up with a > dangerously relativistic notion of the difference > between truth and fiction and between independent > content and advertising. > > -- > Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weaver Subject: Twin Cities Book Festival--Oct. 13th in Mpls. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 For those of you in, near, or around the twin cities, please come to the 7th Annual Twin Cities Book Festival. There will be readings, readings, readings, and books and magazines and presses and journals and books! Featured readings include Bin Ramke and Laura Moriarty, Chris Abani, a traveling team of Dutch poets, Gina B. Nahai, and others. Free! For more information, go to: www.raintaxi.com/bookfest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:04:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: 'Is the internet =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=91killing_our_culture_=92=3F?= In-Reply-To: <470CDE5A.4050209@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit against the the high-brow standards of the status quo and muddled intellectual honesty of a baseless culture. agj --- Maria Damon wrote: > i think the list took this up some time ago. i find > keen's thesis pretty > boorish, the typical middle-brow invective against > cultural pluralism in > the name of "standards." > > Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > > > http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9cbeed14-fee9-11db-aff2-000b5df10621.html > > > > Andrew Keen, a former Silicon Valley entrepreneur, > has > > set the blogosphere alight with his new book, a > > scathing attack on user-generated content. > Sub-titled > > How the Internet is killing our culture, Keen’s > book > > is a polemic against the “anything goes” standards > of > > much of online publishing. > > > > Mr Keen does not believe in “the wisdom of the > crowd”. > > Much of the content filling up YouTube, MySpace, > and > > blogs is just an “an endless digital forest of > > mediocrity” which, unconstrained by professional > > standards or editorial filters, can alter public > > debate and manipulate public opinion > > > > Mr Keen answers questions on user-generated > content > > and the digital revolution below. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > You talk about the “structural crisis of much of > > contemporary mainstream media institutions”. What > do > > you consider to be the causes of this crisis? Are > they > > to do with economics and business models, the > > challenges of change, social and cultural trends, > or > > is it a politically-driven crisis? And do our > > political leaders have any responsibility for > > upholding ’the difference between truth and > fiction’? > > Nico Macdonald, London > > > > Andrew Keen: Great, questions, Nico, which > probably > > deserve a book length response. I think the causes > can > > be found in both the popularity of the internet > and > > the rather pedestrian nature of much mainstream > media. > > In my book, I talk about a solution in which we > > combine the best elements of authoritative > > professional mainstream media and the dynamism and > > irreverence of the Web. The Guardian online and > the FT > > are both doing this quite well (and profitably). > > > > Really good question about the responsibility of > our > > political leaders. Entrusting defence of ”truth” > to > > them is a little Orwellian. However, I do think we > > need a debate about the societal value of a free > press > > and the way we may, in the future, need to treat > > newspapers or independent media as a public > utility. I > > think this is particularly relevant in the US, > where > > the free market is undermining the viability of > many > > traditional media institutions. Newspapers or even > > record labels as non-profits is one solution. I > hope > > my book will at least begin to spark this kind of > > conversation. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > I agree with much of what your book seems to be > > saying, though I find it a bit extreme. In > response to > > another question today, you state your book is a > > polemic and is countering a belief that hasn’t > been > > countered much at all, and that’s why it’s so > > black-and-white. But looking around at blogs in > > particular isn’t part of the problem of Web 2.0 > > publishing the rise of polarisation and polemic? > > James Doherty, London, UK > > > > Andrew Keen: Fair point, James. I think that’s a > very > > valid criticism. the problem is that a very > balanced > > book doesn’t have the same kind of impact as a > polemic > > (both commercially and intellectually). What I’ve > > tried to do is throw a bomb in the book and then > have > > slightly more reasoned conversations in person and > on > > the web. So far, this has worked quite well. I’m > > thrilled with the response. We need to talk about > > media literacy - it’s an important part of > becoming > > literate. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > What’s the initial reaction been so far to your > ideas? > > Are you the most hated person on the blogosphere? > Do > > you think your ideas will catch on? > > Kate Gallagher, Luton, UK > > > > Andrew Keen: Lol. No. Actually the response has > been > > very fair. There are a few people on the internet > who > > think i’m the analog anti-christ. But many > responsible > > web 2.0 people - Kevin Kelly and David Weinberger > for > > example, have engaged in very interesting > conversation > > with me. > > > > I’m currently in New York and last night I did a > > debate with Jeff Howe of Wired Magazine. He said > he > > disagreed with 100 per cent of my book but was > > thrilled that i’d written it and sparked the > debate. > > That’s exactly the kind of reaction that I was > looking > > for. We need to have this debate. It’s too > important > > now to ignore. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > Doesn’t all of this really speak about human > > behaviour? Isn’t it all about people creating > their > > own social environments using the technology? It’s > not > > the web that’s evil after all. > > Alex Brdar, London > > > > Andrew Keen: Very good point. I’ve never claimed > that > > the web is evil. It’s simply a mirror. When we > look > > into it, we see ourselves. Often, that view is > quite > > encouraging. But in the Web 2.0 age, we are > > increasingly looking at a culture which has lost > its > > ethical moorings. > > > > Rampant pornography, gambling, spamming, > anonymity, > > identity theft, flaming etc etc doesn’t speak > highly > > about what you call ”social environments.” And > it’s > > our responsibility to improve these environments, > to > > make them more civilised, to increase trust and > > cooperation on the Internet. We want to be proud > of > > ourselves when we look in the mirror. For most of > us, > > however, looking at the Internet (ie: ourselves) > is a > > sobering and rather shameful experience. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > What’s the implication of your critique for the > more > > accountable environs of a corporate intranet - > would > > you accept wikis might release real new potential > in > > some contexts? > > Adam Hibbert, London > > > > Andrew Keen: Of course. I think wikis in managed, > > corporate environments, where everyone reveals who > > they actually are, has great potential. The key > > problem with public wikis like Wikipedia is their > > anonymity and lack of accountability. This lends > > itself to corruption, intellectual bullying and > > contextless information. Managed, accountable > wikis - > > if that’s not a contradiction in terms - are the > > reverse. I’ve been involved in several myself > which > > have been very fruitful and a lot of fun. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > With the genie of anything goes “creativity” on > the > > web out of the proverbial bottle, what can be done > at > > this late stage - other than bemoan the state of > our > > society - to rein in the runaway wagon train that > is > > the blogosphere and its denizens who feel that > they > > possess an absolute right to procure the > intellectual > > property of others for their own benefit? > > Michael Lee, The Hague > > > > Andrew Keen: Books like mine challenge all this. > The > > responsibility is now with teachers, parents and > > politicians to responsibly manage the consumption > and > > use of this media. This is particularly true on > the IP > > front. We shouldn’t be shy to aggressively fight > > organisations like the Creative Commons which > peddle a > > lot of seductive nonsense about the common > ownership > > of intellectual content. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > Do you really think internet users are so stupid > that > > they can’t see a fact stated on an .edu site is > more > > credible than one included on Wikipedia? > > Dean, London > > > > Andrew Keen: Unfortunately, I’m not convinced. > Many > > new internet users appear to trust websites like > > Wikipedia as if they were the Britannica. The > > challenge is building media literacy. The problem, > I > > fear, is that a generation brought up relying on > > unreliable, trivial and often corrupt internet > > information resources will have no intellectual > means > > of critically reading through the news. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > What do you think of Wikipedia’s content control > > mechanisms, and do you think a user-submitted > > encyclopaedia can be relied upon to be factually > > accurate or offer a true world view on any > particular > > topic? > > Guy Carpenter, Istanbul > > > > Andrew Keen: I’m not impressed. The problem is > > anonymity. I want to know who the editors are. I > trust > > Britannica because I know it’s managed by experts. > I > > don’t trust Wikipedia because I have no idea who > is > > running it. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > What is your view on the social implications of > > internet trends and where do you see it all going? > > Where do you see the social and cultural impacts > of > > Web 2.0? > > A Kisel, London > > > > Andrew Keen: I deal with this in great detail in > my > > book. Overall, the social implications are an > > increasingly narcissistic world in which we will > be > > broadcasting to ourselves. Common cultural > > understandings will breakdown. A common mainstream > > culture will be the victim of the fragmenting > > consequences of an increasingly personalised media > > ecosystem. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > What is your opinion about the Web 2.0 bubble? > > Fabio Sacco, Rome > > > > Andrew Keen: It’s an intellectual and economic > bubble. > > People are already getting bored with it. But the > > problem of the long term flattening of mainstream > > media is real. Things aren’t going to suddenly > revert > > back to the way they were. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > Saying Web 2.0 is an endless forest of mediocrity > is > > thinking in black and white. Web 2.0 creates the > > ability to promote anything indeed, but anything > can > > be very interesting as well. If you leave the > > arbitrage to a (group of) professional(s), you > insert > > a subjective filter and that what’s Web 2.0 > doesn’t > > do. There are more and more well established > artists > > who became known thanks to Web 2.0. Still, I agree > a > > lot of junk is available too. So wouldn’t it be > better > > to broaden the colour palette and add shades of > grey? > > Jean-Louis de Hasque, Belgium > > > > Andrew Keen: My book is a polemic. I am warning of > the > > logic consequences of our drift into a > > self-broadcasting world. Such a dystopia needs to > be > > imagined if we are to constructively deal with the > > profound changes of the Web 2.0 world. You only > get > > grey out of black and white. There’s a lot of > white > > out there with Web 2.0 idealists. The black of my > book > > is a healthy sceptical antidote to the utopians. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > How did we arrive at this state? Why are we > attracted > > to amateur output when the professional stuff can > be > > so much better? Said another way, why can’t > > intellectual quality stand on its own merits? Is > what > > you describe part of broader, progressive forces > at > > work: hasn’t every age introduced technologies > that > > have progressively facilitated the process of > dumbing > > down? Why isn’t the internet merely the one in > ours? > > Phil Stekl, Chicago > > > > Andrew Keen: I’m very troubled by your pessimism. > > There is nothing inevitable about what you call > > ”dumbing down” of culture in this or any other > age. I > > think the internet offers great potential to > uplift > > our entertainment and information economies. > > > > The challenge is to harness its radical potential > and > > success integrate it with old media. We are not > faced > > with an either/or alternative. The future can be > an > > improvement on the past if we are able to utilise > > technology to strengthen professional media. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > How does one compete against the MTV-istion of > culture > > and art on the internet? It seems more and more > > difficult to find useful information, to gage what > > journals, if online, are performing a cultural > good, > > and to ascertain what might be called the > permanence > > of the internet phenomenon with regards to the > > internet serving as a credible repository of > creative > > work. I am a writer and visual artist, my work > > appearing both online and in print. > > Alexander Jorgensen > > > > Andrew Keen: We can compete with MTV (or MySpace > and > > YouTube) by stressing the political and cultural > > benefits of media literacy in our schools and > > universities. > > > > Parents, too, have a responsibility to help their > kids > > consume media critically. I am particularly > troubled > > by the media illiteracy that Web 2.0 is spawning. > This > > is the most problematic consequence of a > supposedly > > democratised media. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > Whilst I agree that there is a lot of crap to be > found > > online these days, how does Keen propose we police > or > > monitor what gets posted? Surely the whole beauty > of > > sites like YouTube is that it does act as a > breeding > > ground for amateur film-makers to make their mark. > > Although many videos might not be the finished > > article, Web 2.0 often provides the necessary > platform > > to get the message out there. > > Finlay Clark, Edinburgh > > > > Andrew Keen: This may be true. But the problem is > that > > it’s currently extremely hard to find high quality > > content on sites like YouTube. What we forget is > that > > traditional media has done a great job > historically > > finding, polishing and distributing content. An > > algorithm can’t do this. Nor can the crowd. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > You’re right, there is a lot of rubbish online; > but > > what about the importance of freedom of speech and > > expression? Isn’t it librerating that many more > people > > now have the opportunity to explore their creative > > side and voice their opinions, even if the rest of > the > > world may think the outcome is nonsense. > > Polly, London > > > > Andrew Keen: I don’t have a problem with amateurs > > expressing themselves online as long as they > remain > > consumers of professional media content. The > problem, > > however, is that the rise of a > user-generated-content > > media is intimately bound up with the structural > > crisis of much of contemporary mainstream media > > institutions. This isn’t a coincidence. > > > > > ............................................................................................................................................ > > > > I support Mr Keen’s concern for quality, but would > > like to know if he feels that young people aren’t > up > > to the mark. Does he see the blog as merely an > > inferior version of literature? People who read > blogs > > or view YouTube clips may not be seeking truth, > but > > stimulus. > > Lee Gilbert, Singapore > > > > Andrew Keen: I don’t want to write-off all of our > > young people. However, I do think that we need to > > focus on teaching kids their responsibility in > seeking > > the truth by a critical reading of information > media. > > This Wikipedia generation are growing up with a > > dangerously relativistic notion of the difference > > between truth and fiction and between independent > > content and advertising. > > > > -- > > Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot > better than some of the stuff that nature replaces > it with." > > > -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:11:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Diane di Prima Thanks for your posts - this one and the one before that helped small = and marginal poets like me see where Creely's poetry stands in the context = of concurrence and how the authority often rakes up great poetry pages to = prove to us that they are dead leaves, despite their slow-decay. Poets like you help us reshape our literary wisdom and conscience when they often crumble from lack of proper aeration.=20 I am no expert in Creely, but have been snipping off small portions from his versatile repertoire for the past couple of years. To me, = Creely sounds like a poet of the "circumstance" - one who could write a poetry = of substance from any given moment of his or anyone's life. I saw a video interview of Creely once where he read a poem about the embarassment of going to a medical store to buy a woman's "thing" for his wife/lover. I think one of his book-blurbs quote John Ashbery saying something like "Creely's poetry is like the easy breath we can't live without...". All = of what you said is even more apt, at least as far as I could relate. Sure, literary survival is in the hands of time but to ensure that we need to = wipe of any fingerprints the authority leaves on it. Decay is a function of = touch as we all know. Your earlier note was embalming. Thank you for that with = all my heart. Thousands of years back in India, emperor's had court poets who wrote = some of the most beautiful, ageless poems of their times and there were kings/nawabs who were poets themselves (like Wajid Ali Shah, portrayed = to perfection by Satyajit Ray in his film "Chess Players") and then there = were the gorgeous Mogul Kings who employed genres of court poets and = musicians. The court poets and their poetry often reflected royal taste. The best poets/poetry have often been fostered by a royalty that understood linguistic finesse, artistry, the need to connect the human to her/his entourage and saw the poet not as a spokesperson or a curator but as an advancer of art. Bad kings made bad poets. Sure the court poet didn't = have the freedom to speak against his master but often had the courage and liberty to speak on behalf of the people. Public voice, thus, rang = within elitist art - at least sometimes. Today, India does not have a = "sabhakabi" (court-poet) but we do in America and certain other parts of the western world. And like as always, bad kings make bad court-poets. obeisance Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Diane DiPrima Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 10:28 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition Dear Friends=20 I want to thank you for your very interesting input. This is the first time since joining the list that I have engaged in anything close to a =B3real=B2 discussion, voiced anything close to a = small slice of my real thoughts and opinions, and I=B9ve learned a lot. What I learned first of all is that I certainly won=B9t send my piece, nor any similar piece, to NYRB or anywhere else. And I remembered again how = utterly pointless opinions=8Bmine or anyone else=B9s=8Btruly are. For me, the heart of the matter is the poem. At my age I can ill afford = to be drawn into discussions which steal many hours from the work at hand. = As for my friends and other poets, living and dead, time will sort out = whose work matters=8Bno way any of us can know anything about that right now. (Remember Robert Southey was Poet Laureate of England while Wordsworth = and Coleridge, Shelley and Keats, were alive.) Even more compelling to me is the consideration that as a Buddhist I = long ago made a commitment not to contribute in any way to discord within the sangha=8Band the poetry community most certainly is a sangha=8Bit=B9s = meaningless if it=B9s not that. I had hoped that I was writing without animosity or stridency, but I seem to have stirred up both. This in itself is reason enough for me to =B3shut up and listen=B2, = which is my plan at this time.=20 Thanks again. Diane di Prima ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:12:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ana Bozicevic-Bowling Subject: On Simic on Creeley: the laureate's language skillz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm coming to this debate a little late in the game (it started on my birthday!), but was interested to read Diane DiPrima's wonderful & lucid critique of the Simic article. That is, until I read this line: "It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley and perhaps many other American poets. It is hard--almost impossible--to hear all the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue." As someone who moved to the U.S. at 19 and began to write in English at 22 (after I was quite sure I had absorbed its "layerings"), I'm disheartened at this reductive shot at Simic and other non-native poets. If this criticism were to be followed to its logical conclusion, should e.g. only the work of American/British poets be discussed on this list -- by other American/British poets? It IS possible not only to learn a language but to read, write, emote and live in it complexly. I can only wish this on more U.S.-born poets. Ana -- http://quoileternite.blogspot.com/ Blog http://realpoetik.blogspot.com/ Magazine http://womenoftheweb.blogspot.com/ Interview ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Heavy Duty Press Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Mister Koppa's blossoming web site, heavydutypress.com[1], showcases several aspects of the artist's growing archives. The site includes a beautiful and user-friendly collage gallery[2], a library of limited edition books (including a few downloadable pdfs)[3], and a generous amount of biographical material through external links, journal keeping, and one very long interview[4]. Koppa obtained his degree in Art from the University of Wisconsin in 1991. He currently lives and works in Vernon County, Wisconsin. [1] http://www.heavydutypress.com/ [2] http://www.heavydutypress.com/collages/gallery [3] http://www.heavydutypress.com/books/library [4] http://www.heavydutypress.com/colo/qa/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:29:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Pierre, Usually, this mother tongue argument goes along with the claim that iambic pentameter is the natural language of poetry because it imitates the heart beat. I encountered both arguments thirty-five years ago at Bread Loaf, in the key note speech John Ciardi gave as the director. The same question is dealt with in Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist when Stephen questions the language used by him (and the Irish) and his Jesuit teacher, who was an Englishman. There is a passage in A Portrait about comparing the word "tundish" with the word "funnel." Pierre, what is your third language? Ciao, Murat On 10/10/07, Pierre Joris wrote: > > Murat, > > good point. I would like to add Li Po & Ovid, Anselm Hollo and Andrei > Codrescu to the list of poets who wrote excellently in a language > other than the "mother tongue." > > Pierre > > p.s. I do not speak with simple forked tongue: English is my fourth > language > > > On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:40 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > > Mark, > > > > Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word of > > English > > until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from writing > > what I > > want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final analysis > > (look I > > dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the consciousness > > about > > language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. > > > > I do not know if you are aware of the number of major American > > poets whose > > first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, to > > name a > > few. > > > > One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the poet must > > experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in detail > > in the > > essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley learns this > > alienation from Zukofsky. > > > > David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though to > > achieve that > > freedom may take years? > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> > >> David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, > >> not least the starkness of the opposition you put > >> forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking > >> about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed > >> response. One point I think does need making. > >> Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic > >> games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be > >> that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read > >> Creeley=8Band perhaps many other American poets. It > >> is hard=8Balmost impossible--to hear all the > >> layerings of meaning in any but your native > >> tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition > >> of a native ear for all the subtlties of language > >> and dialect is very rare after early childhood. > >> One can write very well in the acquired language, > >> of course, without that degree of awareness of > >> the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > >> > >> I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on > >> the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a > >> largely English-speaking environment since his > >> 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and > >> virtually flawless, and barely accented. > >> Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like > >> the depth of awareness of English that he has of > >> Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the > >> nuances of a Spanish word and the English > >> approximations I planned to use, and he was > >> usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. > >> > >> Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to > >> confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and > >> Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was > >> decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its > >> formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue > >> the least subtle effects--those he or she can > >> hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan > >> Thomas, for example, is much more popular among > >> Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and > >> Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones > >> than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As > >> to Kerouac, his early separation from English was > >> nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as > >> Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. > >> > >> I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's > >> going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US > >> poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of native > >> speakers. > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > >>> In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he speaks of > >>> "El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida of an > >>> aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying some > >>> passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention to > >>> himself rather than the "real" Matador. > >>> The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the > >>> world > >>> of the professional ritual of Death! > >>> Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities and > >>> keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the > >>> reappearance > >>> of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El > >>> Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the ring > >>> insures repeat performances. > >>> One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of > >>> reality > >>> and turn it into their own personal mythology. > >>> El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in the > >>> confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the > >>> encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of > >>> ritual, > >>> of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > >>> El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted with > >>> windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by real > >>> life > >>> robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the windmills-knights > >>> who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but the > >>> keepers of the gates of the Real. > >>> > >>> Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop > >>> Prosody > >>> against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his cue > >>> from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in pocket > >>> notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or the > >>> worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't done > >>> with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world > >>> around > >>> him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, Shakesespeare,s > >>> sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the Joual > >>> language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first language > >>> speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of > >>> Simic's > >>> status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac > >>> worked > >>> with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook page. > >>> Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the "legendary" > >>> qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" many > >>> volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane > >>> speeds. > >>> "Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he > >>> said, > >>> while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." > >>> As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived at in > >>> the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with > >>> Death > >>> and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived at--and > >>> continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted that > >>> even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the > >>> publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner of > >>> Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he > >>> "discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had > >>> exhausted > >>> the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he > >>> needed to > >>> present his "book movie, the original American form." > >>> The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last > >>> published > >>> novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be written in > >>> standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new illiterate > >>> generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his encounter > >>> with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" > >>> works > >>> of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works "unreadable." > >>> Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far > >>> over > >>> into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first complete > >>> edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and Joyce's > >>> Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English > >>> language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous Bop > >>> prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" > >>> orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which > >>> translated > >>> means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of the > >>> future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have to > >>> return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of > >>> Duluoz, > >>> to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > >>> Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that > >>> "Free > >>> Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's not > >>> like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something > >>> worked at > >>> through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of musical > >>> forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to be > >>> able > >>> to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > >>> The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and the > >>> "crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous > >>> examples is > >>> "Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and distinguished, > >>> exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to > >>> work at > >>> their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, all > >>> showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. > >>> Yet > >>> when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of impressive > >>> work to display at all. > >>> The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will show > >>> you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on the > >>> dusty floor a perfect circle. > >>> Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the judges > >>> were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto for > >>> his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was the > >>> most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > >>> > >>> On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works > >>> which > >>> seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" > >>> compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or emerging > >>> like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is made > >>> up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. > >>> Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of Composition," > >>> one > >>> can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a > >>> series > >>> of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through > >>> deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put to > >>> use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders in > >>> the > >>> Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating > >>> book on > >>> the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during the > >>> course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called The > >>> Little Cigar Store Girl.) > >>> Works that have the explosive energy and fury of spontaneous > >>> outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of L-F > >>> Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process of > >>> drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also > >>> demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of expression. > >>> The same thing can be done in music and film, video > >>> studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can be > >>> experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring > >>> spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long series > >>> of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." > >>> The question of spontaneity itself in writing is therefore a > >>> much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is the > >>> "spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of > >>> composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT of > >>> spontaneity? > >>> The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane di > >>> Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the word > >>> "momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very much > >>> glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs to be > >>> sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being > >>> "momently" > >>> and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" > >>> rather > >>> than "of the moment." > >>> And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is > >>> "momently" > >>> how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a > >>> concern > >>> with "spontaneity." > >>> That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, of > >>> any > >>> concern to Simic? > >>> El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a poetic > >>> character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology of > >>> being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy practice > >>> whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the > >>> Professional > >>> Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, of > >>> course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the > >>> ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of > >>> afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just another > >>> deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the > >>> Corrida > >>> and its ritual of Death. > >>> El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that spontaneous, > >>> having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the "momently"-opening > >>> in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for the > >>> Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn out to > >>> be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in fact > >>> been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be > >>> another > >>> form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to > >>> gawk > >>> and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > >>> Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves Klein > >>> foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend which > >>> both > >>> ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > >>> I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war of > >>> competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers and > >>> differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of the > >>> soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and is > >>> not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much more > >>> interested in having the discussion be opened up to a > >>> consideration of > >>> the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to > >>> demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than is > >>> being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic to > >>> pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of > >>> spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and Effect in > >>> relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" and > >>> what > >>> his ideas on these lines are. > >>> I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to > >>> speak, > >>> this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful discussion of > >>> "poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those of > >>> Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants to > >>> actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display the > >>> current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the- > >>> reading > >>> desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter betrays > >>> to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of natioanal/ethnic > >>> identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as > >>> it is > >>> possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to > >>> their > >>> ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > >>> All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question of > >>> ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a person's > >>> thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not agree > >>> 100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," must of > >>> course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" > >>> alien, > >>> not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real right > >>> to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as the > >>> "right" humans. > >>> I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back and > >>> forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very > >>> interesting > >>> and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing oneself > >>> for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer > >>> understanding of > >>> what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as > >>> "spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply hurling > >>> epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the Holy > >>> Land > >>> and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about in > >>> the > >>> first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" > >>> which > >>> are older than Aristotle's. > >>> Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is > >>> me?" > >>> Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in preparing > >>> one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. Spontaneity in > >>> the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even > >>> one's > >>> own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr > >>> simic of, > >>> one should be even more aware of this regarding one self before > >>> confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the lynch > >>> mob, > >>> Already every day there are more and more examples in the news of > >>> persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings published, > >>> speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing and > >>> banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by > >>> "institutions of > >>> higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. If > >>> one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act responsably > >>> before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > >>> That is why, again, I return to the question of > >>> spontaneity. > >>> Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee jerk > >>> reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, which > >>> even > >>> in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > >>> It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a play > >>> employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word > >>> 'Culture," > >>> I reach for my revolver." > >>> "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > >>> of it--not one's own, to be sure. > >>> Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of the > >>> spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the perfect > >>> Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at > >>> random > >>> with a revolver. > >>> One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > >>> Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of > >>> "poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and find > >>> out > >>> for oneself as Olson would say. > >>> "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > >>> > >>> (By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading the > >>> article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and loudly > >>> disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they > >>> would not > >>> only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not even > >>> read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found interesting--that > >>> buying and reading are meant to be"=3D". Heck, I read a huge > >>> number of > >>> books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any > >>> rate, > >>> there arestill public and private libraries in existence also.) > >> > > ___________________________________________________________ > > In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of art. > -- Joseph Beuys > ___________________________________________________________ > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com/ > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > ____________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:34:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <470CA30A.16953.818DBC@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Marcus, I do not agree with your distinction about "nuance" debilitating reading either. Do you mean a poet like Zukofsky (to give just one example) was not capable of "nuanced" reading, whatever that means? Murat On 10/10/07, Marcus Bales wrote: > > Not to put too fine a point on it, but the criticism was NOT that people > can't > WRITE fine poetry in 2nd or 4th or 7th languages, but that they may miss > the > nuances of OTHER PEOPLE's poetry. > > This kind of self-defensive reflex is sort of interesting to watch, but > not very > illuminating, and certainly not on point. How many of us think that we are > in > fact able to read poems in our 2nd or 4th or 7th languages as well as > native > speakers do? > > Marcus > > > On 10 Oct 2007 at 7:28, Pierre Joris wrote: > > > Murat, > > > > good point. I would like to add Li Po & Ovid, Anselm Hollo and > > Andrei > > Codrescu to the list of poets who wrote excellently in a language > > other than the "mother tongue." > > > > Pierre > > > > p.s. I do not speak with simple forked tongue: English is my fourth > > language > > > > > > On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:40 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > > > > Mark, > > > > > > Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word of > > > English > > > until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from writing > > > what I > > > want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final analysis > > > (look I > > > dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the > > consciousness > > > about > > > language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. > > > > > > I do not know if you are aware of the number of major American > > > poets whose > > > first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, Williams, to > > > name a > > > few. > > > > > > One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the poet > > must > > > experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in detail > > > in the > > > essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley learns > > this > > > alienation from Zukofsky. > > > > > > David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though to > > > achieve that > > > freedom may take years? > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > >> > > >> David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, > > >> not least the starkness of the opposition you put > > >> forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking > > >> about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed > > >> response. One point I think does need making. > > >> Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic > > >> games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be > > >> that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read > > >> Creeley > >> is hard > >> layerings of meaning in any but your native > > >> tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition > > >> of a native ear for all the subtlties of language > > >> and dialect is very rare after early childhood. > > >> One can write very well in the acquired language, > > >> of course, without that degree of awareness of > > >> the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > > >> > > >> I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on > > >> the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a > > >> largely English-speaking environment since his > > >> 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and > > >> virtually flawless, and barely accented. > > >> Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like > > >> the depth of awareness of English that he has of > > >> Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the > > >> nuances of a Spanish word and the English > > >> approximations I planned to use, and he was > > >> usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. > > >> > > >> Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to > > >> confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and > > >> Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was > > >> decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its > > >> formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue > > >> the least subtle effects--those he or she can > > >> hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan > > >> Thomas, for example, is much more popular among > > >> Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and > > >> Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones > > >> than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As > > >> to Kerouac, his early separation from English was > > >> nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as > > >> Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. > > >> > > >> I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's > > >> going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US > > >> poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot of > > native > > >> speakers. > > >> > > >> Mark > > >> > > >> > > >> At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > > >>> In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he > > speaks of > > >>> "El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a Corrida > > of an > > >>> aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, essaying > > some > > >>> passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's attention > > to > > >>> himself rather than the "real" Matador. > > >>> The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into the > > >>> world > > >>> of the professional ritual of Death! > > >>> Despite many times being hauled away by the authorities > > and > > >>> keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the > > >>> reappearance > > >>> of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, El > > >>> Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the > > ring > > >>> insures repeat performances. > > >>> One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold of > > >>> reality > > >>> and turn it into their own personal mythology. > > >>> El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" in > > the > > >>> confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet the > > >>> encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers of > > >>> ritual, > > >>> of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > > >>> El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who tilted > > with > > >>> windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon by > > real > > >>> life > > >>> robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the > > windmills-knights > > >>> who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, but > > the > > >>> keepers of the gates of the Real. > > >>> > > >>> Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous Bop > > >>> Prosody > > >>> against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking his > > cue > > >>> from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in > > pocket > > >>> notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world or > > the > > >>> worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching isn't > > done > > >>> with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the world > > >>> around > > >>> him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, > > Shakesespeare,s > > >>> sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of the > > Joual > > >>> language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first > > language > > >>> speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning of > > >>> Simic's > > >>> status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites Kerouac > > >>> worked > > >>> with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook > > page. > > >>> Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the > > "legendary" > > >>> qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of Dulouz" > > many > > >>> volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at super-high-octane > > >>> speeds. > > >>> "Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour," he > > >>> said, > > >>> while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's typing." > > >>> As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not arrived > > at in > > >>> the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring with > > >>> Death > > >>> and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is arrived > > at--and > > >>> continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs noted > > that > > >>> even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before the > > >>> publication of The Town and the City, written much in the manner > > of > > >>> Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When he > > >>> "discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac had > > >>> exhausted > > >>> the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" he > > >>> needed to > > >>> present his "book movie, the original American form." > > >>> The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's last > > >>> published > > >>> novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be > > written in > > >>> standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new > > illiterate > > >>> generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his > > encounter > > >>> with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him "unreadable" > > >>> works > > >>> of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works > > "unreadable." > > >>> Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone far > > >>> over > > >>> into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first > > complete > > >>> edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this and > > Joyce's > > >>> Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the English > > >>> language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's Sponatneous > > Bop > > >>> prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from "rational" > > >>> orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" (which > > >>> translated > > >>> means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing of > > the > > >>> future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will have > > to > > >>> return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity of > > >>> Duluoz, > > >>> to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > > >>> Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say that > > >>> "Free > > >>> Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." It's > > not > > >>> like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but something > > >>> worked at > > >>> through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of > > musical > > >>> forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which to > > be > > >>> able > > >>> to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > > >>> The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous and > > the > > >>> "crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous > > >>> examples is > > >>> "Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and > > distinguished, > > >>> exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set to > > >>> work at > > >>> their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were examined, > > all > > >>> showing off as much as possible the great skills of the artists. > > >>> Yet > > >>> when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of > > impressive > > >>> work to display at all. > > >>> The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I will > > show > > >>> you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and drew on > > the > > >>> dusty floor a perfect circle. > > >>> Fortunetly for the history and Legends of art--the > > judges > > >>> were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to Giotto > > for > > >>> his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it was > > the > > >>> most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > > >>> > > >>> On the other hand, one can cite a very great many works > > >>> which > > >>> seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" > > >>> compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or > > emerging > > >>> like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface is > > made > > >>> up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of notes. > > >>> Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of > > Composition," > > >>> one > > >>> can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as a > > >>> series > > >>> of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought through > > >>> deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin put > > to > > >>> use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the "Murders > > in > > >>> the > > >>> Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A fascinating > > >>> book on > > >>> the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it during > > the > > >>> course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, called > > The > > >>> Little Cigar Store Girl.) > > >>> Works that have the explosive energy and fury of > > spontaneous > > >>> outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works of > > L-F > > >>> Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a process > > of > > >>> drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" also > > >>> demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of > > expression. > > >>> The same thing can be done in music and film, video > > >>> studios--the editing of many different different "takes' can > > be > > >>> experienced by the listener and viewer as something occuring > > >>> spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a long > > series > > >>> of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the fact." > > >>> The question of spontaneity itself in writing is > > therefore a > > >>> much more complex question, for it involves asking--what is > > the > > >>> "spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD of > > >>> composition itself--or the deductive creation of the EFFECT > > of > > >>> spontaneity? > > >>> The spontaneous involves more than what I am with Diane > > di > > >>> Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of the > > word > > >>> "momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he very > > much > > >>> glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" needs > > to be > > >>> sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being > > >>> "momently" > > >>> and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of moment" > > >>> rather > > >>> than "of the moment." > > >>> And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is > > >>> "momently" > > >>> how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with a > > >>> concern > > >>> with "spontaneity." > > >>> That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the METHOD, > > of > > >>> any > > >>> concern to Simic? > > >>> El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as a > > poetic > > >>> character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal mythology > > of > > >>> being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy > > practice > > >>> whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the > > >>> Professional > > >>> Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods will, > > of > > >>> course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of the > > >>> ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority of > > >>> afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be just > > another > > >>> deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of the > > >>> Corrida > > >>> and its ritual of Death. > > >>> El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that > > spontaneous, > > >>> having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the > > "momently"-opening > > >>> in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness for > > the > > >>> Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually turn > > out to > > >>> be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have in > > fact > > >>> been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just be > > >>> another > > >>> form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the world to > > >>> gawk > > >>> and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > > >>> Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves > > Klein > > >>> foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a Legend > > which > > >>> both > > >>> ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > > >>> I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a war > > of > > >>> competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic barriers > > and > > >>> differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies of > > the > > >>> soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is and > > is > > >>> not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be much > > more > > >>> interested in having the discussion be opened up to a > > >>> consideration of > > >>> the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying to > > >>> demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex than > > is > > >>> being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr Simic > > to > > >>> pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense of > > >>> spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and > > Effect in > > >>> relation to this, which then entails a questioning of "craft" > > and > > >>> what > > >>> his ideas on these lines are. > > >>> I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so to > > >>> speak, > > >>> this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful > > discussion of > > >>> "poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in those > > of > > >>> Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever wants > > to > > >>> actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on display > > the > > >>> current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the after-the- > > >>> reading > > >>> desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The latter > > betrays > > >>> to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of > > natioanal/ethnic > > >>> identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much as > > >>> it is > > >>> possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried to > > >>> their > > >>> ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > > >>> All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the question > > of > > >>> ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a > > person's > > >>> thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does not > > agree > > >>> 100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) stands," > > must of > > >>> course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a "suspect" > > >>> alien, > > >>> not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any real > > right > > >>> to being part of the conversation among what are recognized as > > the > > >>> "right" humans. > > >>> I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters back > > and > > >>> forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very > > >>> interesting > > >>> and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of preparing > > oneself > > >>> for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer > > >>> understanding of > > >>> what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word as > > >>> "spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply > > hurling > > >>> epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for the > > Holy > > >>> Land > > >>> and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all about > > in > > >>> the > > >>> first place. Especially when it involve questions in "poetics" > > >>> which > > >>> are older than Aristotle's. > > >>> Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and he is > > >>> me?" > > >>> Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in > > preparing > > >>> one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. > > Spontaneity in > > >>> the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding even > > >>> one's > > >>> own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing mr > > >>> simic of, > > >>> one should be even more aware of this regarding one self > > before > > >>> confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to the > > lynch > > >>> mob, > > >>> Already every day there are more and more examples in the news > > of > > >>> persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings > > published, > > >>> speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and firing > > and > > >>> banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by > > >>> "institutions of > > >>> higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such things. > > If > > >>> one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act > > responsably > > >>> before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > > >>> That is why, again, I return to the question of > > >>> spontaneity. > > >>> Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the knee > > jerk > > >>> reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of view, > > which > > >>> even > > >>> in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > > >>> It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a > > play > > >>> employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the word > > >>> 'Culture," > > >>> I reach for my revolver." > > >>> "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > > >>> of it--not one's own, to be sure. > > >>> Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue of > > the > > >>> spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the > > perfect > > >>> Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing at > > >>> random > > >>> with a revolver. > > >>> One can shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > > >>> Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of > > >>> "poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, conversations--and > > find > > >>> out > > >>> for oneself as Olson would say. > > >>> "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > > >>> > > >>> (By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even reading > > the > > >>> article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and > > loudly > > >>> disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright they > > >>> would not > > >>> only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that not > > even > > >>> read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found > > interesting--that > > >>> buying and reading are meant to be"=". Heck, I read a huge > > >>> number of > > >>> books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at any > > >>> rate, > > >>> there arestill public and private libraries in existence > > also.) > > >> > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > > In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of art. > > -- Joseph Beuys > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Pierre Joris > > 244 Elm Street > > Albany NY 12202 > > h: 518 426 0433 > > c: 518 225 7123 > > o: 518 442 40 71 > > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > > email: joris@albany.edu > > http://pierrejoris.com/ > > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: > > 10/10/2007 8:43 AM > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:42:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Morgan Schuldt Subject: CUE: A Journal of Prose Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CUE6, guest-edited by Jason Zuzga, is now available and includes new work by Greta Byrum, Julia Bloch, CA Conrad, Sarah Dowling, Ryan Eckes, Regan Good, Gabriel Gudding, Anna Maria Hong, Matt Miller, Jean-Paul Pecqueur, Sam Petulla, Rodney Phillips, Michael Snediker, John Taggart, Monica Youn, and a review of Harryette Mullen's Recyclopedia by Elisabeth Frost. Upcoming in CUE7: Stephanie Balzer, Barbara Cully, Ann Fine, Karla Kelsey,= Jane Miller, Michael Schiavo, Ravi Shankar, Shelly Taylor, Jon Thompson, G= .C. Waldrep, Arianne Zwartjes and Stephen Cushman on William Carlos William= s's Kora in Hell. United States subscription rates are $10 for one year (two issues) and $16 for two years (4 issues), and $14 (one year) and $20 (= two years) for institutional and foreign subscriptions. Single copies of our most recent issue are available for $6= . Individual back issues (1-5) are available for $4 each. Send to:=20 CUE Subscriptions PO Box 200 2509 N. Campbell Ave. Tucson, AZ 85719 http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mschuldt/CUE.html cuejournal at yahoo dot com Purchase the first 6 back issues of CUE for $20 and get a one year subscription free (Foreign su= bscribers please add an extra $4 for postage.) _________________________________________________________________ Boo!=A0Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare= ! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=3Dwl_hotma= ilnews= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:47:48 -0400 Reply-To: tyrone williams Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tyrone williams Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Artanil, Someone else may already have responded to your questions/concerns about the = sign in L=A=N...It has been made clear in a number of publications, including In the Language Tree, that the sign was a reminder that signs (letters) refer, have meaning only in relation, to other letters; their referentail value then is not one of equality but rather one of convention. The "equal" here then means that all signs are sign insofar as they differ from other signs,differences that make them all "equal" in value as signs. Tyrone -----Original Message----- >From: Aryanil Mukherjee >Sent: Oct 10, 2007 7:46 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition > >Dear David > >That's a brilliant piece of writing. Mind's a bucket full of words, >someone said, and sometimes it just outweighs us, our hands refuse >carry its weight. That's how I felt trying to respond to your conscience- >whipper. Too many thoughts to put together into one body. > >So, let me be content with one comment. The = of Language Poetry >may soon begin to look like a barbed wire - I'll bow to that wit. >It's a concern for sure. A real concern. Also I have found the >"=" sign baffling from day one. It makes all letters look alike, all >connotations dissolve into a goo of complete meaninglessness, all >words melt back into one ore. Are they talking about some kind of a hybrid, >universal language like Esperanto - that was my first thought. My last >thought too. > >And BTW, "The Gleaners" is indeed a great film, an inspiring one for >poets. > >Aryanil > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of David Chirot >Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:06 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition > > Forgive essaying to respond to three threads at once, yet i >think they are interrelated in very interesting ways. (I won/t be >bale to them justice here, but an essay at a start--) > Language can play very strange roles in its vaga-bondage from >the throat and fingers into the "aires" or "errors" heard by ears or >errers, and by the I/eye that reads the notations of its reeds. > When i was sixteen i was living in the streets, parks and >abandoned buildings in Paris and for a brief spell with a tiny >Anarchist cell of workers at the Renault factory. After some >operations of the "propaganda of the deed" on unguarded empty police >vans we split up and i was back to living here and there. Often there >would be many young people from various countries sleeping in a park, >or even just eating in a park, and the police would come through and >arrest as many as they could. It's thanks to the police a lifelong >education began in questions of identity, "profiling," handwriting, >finger printing, surveillance photos having to do with language, >whether it's one's first or second, let alone those of which William >S. Burroughs notes in the Preface to Junkie, "a final glossary, >therefore, cannot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." > Alex Dickow made a very important point--that it is not only >the accent which goes into speaking and writing a language in essaying >to learn it, it is many other things which constitute a mosaic-like >surface which in turn has to have when tested beneath this >"camouflaging" as it were the depths and contours of first a relief, >and, if that is discovered, still another level of depths which flow >into the subconscious areas of involuntary memories and dreams. Once >a language has begun to be dreamed in, and have involuntary memories >recalled through, it begins to manifest itself in the outward gestures >and expressions, body language, intonations and inflections, which one >begins "living out" when speaking and writing. > And to go even further into these dreams and memories as well as >in waking consciousness, there is the growing frequency of bi-lingual >(or tri-lingual and more) punnings and neologisms, collaged and >montaged visual/soundscapes that one finds keep turning up "all over >the place" day and night. Arriving in this area, one begins to realize >a proliferation and loosening of "identity" not only in terms of >language but of body language as well. In a sense, one has achieved >the potential if not the existence, really, of being a "double agent." > As usual with language of any kind, "doubling" is at the very >least a "two edged sword." This "doubled agency" can be very >liberating and also very "suspicious," even imprisoning, depending on >the people, places and things one encounters and is involved with. >One minute it's "double your pleasure,/double your fun/when you are >chewing/doublemint gum," and the next it's "where the dangers are >double/and the pleasures are few/where it's dark as the dungeon/and >damp as the dew." > I had only been learning French for a bit less than two years, part >of that while living there and part from movies and books. (I had >gone to Paris to be at the Cinematheque as much as possible; at the >time it was the only place to be for the cine-possesed.) It had by >then entered dream and memory and been making the bi-lingual puns, and >without realizing it had transformed one physically when speaking. >The police, ever guardians of the "prison house(s) of language(s)" >immediately were suspicious. They asserted my american passport was >either forged or stolen and turned me over to the CRS para-military >political police. That was to be the first of a number of nightmarish >times with them. Many of them were Algerian War veterans and into >torture, brutality, inflicting many injuries, some that have never >completely healed. Yet one didn't get beaten to death like an Arab >in an adjoining cell, whose "crime" was thinking himself really a >French citizen as his papers said he was. > One time i was walking down the street and saw some people with >a table and literature. A man came up to me and said--"You're Breton, >aren't you?" Some of my ancestors were from there, but had arrived in >Quebec in 1650. Well--i must learn about the Breton Liberation Front, >then, right? A pleasant afternoon learning about this and helping >handout leaflets and pamphlets. The next time arrested, the police >showed me a foto in which there i was, a "member" of the Liberation >Front. This time it was "association with a group against the >Republic" and this led to another one later, charged with 'terrorism," > ironic considering the Anarchist events were never traced. > When I went to England with my brother some months later, they >didn't believe the passport either. I was put in a detention cell in >the ferry and given a whole battery of English language tests, very >fast--oral, written, reading. Then asked for plane ticket return, >travelers' cheques, and addresses of friends going to visit. My >brother had no such problem. He had been living and working in >Ticino, so wasn't dressed and didn't act the same way. Oddlly, they >believed he was an American (though he looked like an Ticinese >peasant) and said, besides you don't look like brothers. Ten years >later when I went to England again, a variation of the same things >occurred. (In between these visits had read Henry Miller's account >of his unpleasant encounter with the British authorities.) > Similar events followed me across Europe over several trips, the >most complicated one, too long to tell here, involved house arrest in >Poland and appearance before a military court. > In every case, no matter the documentation, the charge involved >at the minimum forged passport and maximum such dangerous ones as >suspicion of terrorism, suspicion of espionage. It didn't matter that >in some countries one didn't know the language at all. Body language >and behaviour was what "told the truth." One had become, in effect, >via bi-linguism, a life long double agent apparently. > This sort of thing once started never seems to stop and has >followed me to Canada and in the USA. Not suspicion of crimes, other >than simply not being American. "Where are you really from, Dave," >said the officer recently investigating what i was doing while working >on some pieces at a site. "The squad car computer 's says you're an >American. You sure about that? Not pulling my leg, now, are you?" > In a funny way, this makes one wonder if one's first language >isn't a foreign one, and from there one goes into the sense of >doubling being at the pulsing heart of any language one encounters. >Years of being involved in other areas of existence only further this, >where indeed the fugitive words and incomplete glossaries that >Burroughs notes, become as much as a part of one's awareness and being >as the standardized versions of language one encounters when not among >fellow speakers of the others. This is one among many other reasons >that i write of my works that they are involved with what is hidden in >plain site/sight/cite. The world one moves in is not simply >bi-lingual, but many, many lingual, though many of the langauges are >of necessity fragmentary, fugitive, in continual flux among the >ongoing flow of al that is. One adapts to a chamelon form of existence >in movements and words, images and sounds, gestures, vocabularies, >grammers that shift with the persons one deals with at any given time >of the day or night. > Walking down a street one watches shadows, reflections for a >much wider multi-angled many-eyed as it were point of view. The same >operates sonically, attuned to echoes to judge distances of others >from oneself, of buildings not yet seen lying ahead or where the >openings of alleys are in the darkest night. In this way I began >working much more with learning to see when working via the touch, the >hands, and training the eyes to be able to feel textures when barely >enough illumination is present. Languages found in darkness among the >unseen things reveberate through the nerves of the fingers to the >mind's throat. > All of these lessons one brings to "language" and so one sees >and hears in language so much that those who use it are unaware of >themselves. (And never let oneself think that is one is "completely >aware," of even but a small part of it at all either.) Thus, a person >who knows a number of languages may well hear in one of them things >that are unheard by those who are limited to that one language only. > That is, if one is seeing and listening and touching in as many >ways possible to learn just what it is in the continual arrangements >of particles what constitutes at any given moment the "language >situation," it is often not at all as it appears to be, presents >itself to be, or thinks itself to be. Areas of the muffling and >deadening or almost complete muteness of language open up, and in them >one finds that it is possible that the images of the world so to speak >become altered and deformed in a myriad ways. > So much of what is taken to be the "facts of the matter," >"time-tested truths", al the rest of it, are dependent on the willing >suspension of disbelief. Complete fabrications, outright lies, >deliberate dis-translations, plagiarized "originality," the smear, the >rumor, the plant, the carefully constructed claims of authority, the >forgery, the doctored tapes, fotos, videos, the fool's gold are all >absolutely essential to the "truth" on which is built "order," >"security," "threat," "the market," "freedom," "history," and the rest >of the gigantic Language which shoves people about and forces most of >them into hells on earth. Every thing must be done to protect and >preserve the "willing suspension of disbelief" that is taken to be the > "clear" "reasonable" thinking of the "well-informed citizen." > The Gazas, Green Zones, Gated Communities of the world are >in the early stages of their developments in terms of the >architectures of security, surveillance, censorship, the making >completely visible within contained areas of persons who are >simultaneously kept invisible to the outside world. (England is also >developing this to extreme degrees. And the new Boeing and >subcontracted Israeli firms Border Fence to be erected all along the >border of the USA and Mexico will be for a while the "showstopper.") > Confinement on a grand scale becomes the new form, the black >hole, into which vanish peoples from history. The erasure is further >carried out by language. To eradicate languages is to cut off their >dreamings, their involuntary memories, their ghostly presences. Even >to begin simply with methods of dis-translation, censorings, bannings, >falsifications or forgeries and the rest of the bag of tricks, is to >begin the work of expunging this existence of a language, of many many >languages. And not only "foreign" languages, but one's "own" language. > Dreamings, desires, behaviours, can slowly be disposed of by the >continual work done on the fictions taken as facts and truths. >Languages of liberation turn quickly into those of the prison, the >torture chamber, the "disappeared." >The "=" sign in "Language" poetry can become pretty fast barbed wire. >And why not? Does it not also need to preserve and protect, become >its own gated community in turn? Is this not why the "English official >language" movement is such a well funded one? Or the reason only >certain forms of writing and reading are taught as the "correct" or >the "resistant" ones? > In a bizzare way, a great deal of effort is put into >simulating in language things which the simulators wittingly or not >are complicit in forcing upon others to live-- and a great many of >these themselves denied literacy, a nice touch! > Language is to be "ruptured," "disrupted," "fragmented," >"chaotic," "Meaningless," to undergo "chance" operations, > to be given the variety of non-translation methods of translation one >can find in various lists of writing exercises, to be subjected to >"shocks," to be "interrogated," to be in short experimented upon in >the ways a great many persons are. The benefit of this to the >experimenters is (supposed to be) that there will be the realization >in "form" of what is taeken to be "radical," and "resistant" to the >System. This is all very much to the benefit of the System, however, >for it gives the "willing suspension of disbelief" its raison >d'etre--the creation of a fiction of resistance, while the System uses >these similarly named methodologies on persons who are in fact >"resistant." > The set-up is dependent on there being one "National" language, >one conception of Language, one form of "language poetry,""language >of poetry," "poetical language" and the like. > Paradoxically, the more that there is this "Oneness," the more >there is the proliferation of the rubble, the waste, the debris, the >broken, the demolished, the rusted, the "useless,"created by its >brutal "construction of the New, the 'post'" "condition." For all the >cleaning, cleanliness and cleansing imposed, there is ever more of >the dirty piling up all around one hidden in plain site/sight/cite. > More and more of the peoples of the world live in these refuse >heaps, the "planet of slums" as Mike Davis calls it in a book of that >name, learning to exist on rubble. "How picturesque," "how admirable >the human spirit," say the fotos and captions of a current series in >the NY Times for example. "Tourism in other people's misery," as the >Situationists aptly described it. > Yet, "Necessity is the motherfucker of invention," one sings to >oneself among the overlooked alleys and dirty bits and pieces of >letterings and forms, and in this already polyglot, already >fragmented, ruptured, thrown away, shell shocked, disaster shocked >refuse is where is found the seeds with which to refuse this gigantic >monomaniacal mono-linguism of simulations and controls. One learns >among these sites/sights/cites refused further utility that there is >indeed the "utility of uselessness," for in the paradox of being thus >hidden, they have endured and still carry within them the languages of >dreams, involuntary memories, ghostly presences, the elements of >rhizomatic languages which, being fugitive, are not part of a complete >or ever to be completed glossary, never to be compiled and "contained" >within > any one book, any two covers, any one language, any one system. > From that necessity comes the discipline through practice of >finding the improvised leap of many El Spontaneos into the ring where >not only the real bulls are encountered, but the rituals, languages, >organizings of the spectacle of Death. Prepared by necessity, myriad >tongued motherfucker of invention, can not the El Spontaneos >improvize the myriad gestures, songs, movements of a refusal of this >spectacle? And in so doing provide a myriad of examples of refusals >from which to take elements to continue the inventions of refusals? > Marcel Duchamp introduced the world to the "ready-made." >Extending his thought further, one finds oneself working with the >ready-refuse. All around one, hidden in plain site,sight, cite--the >polyglot refus-sings. > The ballads of Villon can be heard in all this refuse, in >the Medieval art of necessity still in existence today of "les >Glaneurs," "The Gleaners." (btw this is the name of a very great film >by Agnes Varda on this topic) > I do not think one ever attains what is called "competence" in >any language without in some degree becoming "incompetent" in a >language of living. It is the necessity of living itself that exposes >to one the findings of languages in their multitudes among which one >may learn to work with basic elements to be opening outwo/ards into >and with othernesses. > "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself."--Paul Celan > "I do not seek, I find"--Pablo Picasso (both of them polyglots) Tyrone Williams ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:02:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ana Bozicevic-Bowling Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley: the laureate's language skillz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline PS and let us not forget Canadians... On 10/10/07, Ana Bozicevic-Bowling wrote: > > I'm coming to this debate a little late in the game (it started on my > birthday!), but was interested to read Diane DiPrima's wonderful & lucid > critique of the Simic article. That is, until I read this line: > > "It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley and > perhaps many other American poets. It is hard--almost impossible--to hear > all the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue." > > As someone who moved to the U.S. at 19 and began to write in English at 22 > (after I was quite sure I had absorbed its "layerings"), I'm disheartened at > this reductive shot at Simic and other non-native poets. If this criticism > were to be followed to its logical conclusion, should e.g. only the work > of American/British poets be discussed on this list -- by other > American/British poets? It IS possible not only to learn a language but to > read, write, emote and live in it complexly. I can only wish this on more > U.S.-born poets. > > Ana > > -- > http://quoileternite.blogspot.com/ Blog > http://realpoetik.blogspot.com/ Magazine > http://womenoftheweb.blogspot.com/ Interview -- http://quoileternite.blogspot.com/ Blog http://realpoetik.blogspot.com/ Magazine http://womenoftheweb.blogspot.com/ Interview ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:29:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Simic again. He's everywhere! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed List members might find the shortlist for the National Book Award in poetry amusing. http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/10/the-nba-shortlist/index.html?hp. Note that the selection committee chairman is Simic. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:51:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley: the laureate's language skillz In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Let's not forget that Jack Kerouac was an "ESL" novelist. Or, would we cons= ider him bilingual from birth? And when did Nabokov learn English? Wasn't it his third language, or am I m= istaken? Nicholas Karavatos Dept of Language & Literature American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:12:06 -0400 > From: anabobo@GMAIL.COM > Subject: On Simic on Creeley: the laureate's language skillz > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > I'm coming to this debate a little late in the game (it started on my > birthday!), but was interested to read Diane DiPrima's wonderful & lucid > critique of the Simic article. That is, until I read this line: > > "It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley and > perhaps many other American poets. It is hard--almost impossible--to hear > all the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue." > > As someone who moved to the U.S. at 19 and began to write in English at 2= 2 > (after I was quite sure I had absorbed its "layerings"), I'm disheartened= at > this reductive shot at Simic and other non-native poets. If this criticis= m > were to be followed to its logical conclusion, should e.g. only the work = of > American/British poets be discussed on this list -- by other > American/British poets? It IS possible not only to learn a language but t= o > read, write, emote and live in it complexly. I can only wish this on more > U.S.-born poets. > > Ana > > -- > http://quoileternite.blogspot.com/ Blog > http://realpoetik.blogspot.com/ Magazine > http://womenoftheweb.blogspot.com/ Interview _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0 Play Star Shuffle:=A0 the word scramble = challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= t= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:52:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Simic again. He's everywhere! Comments: To: junction@EARTHLINK.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Oh gosh poor poetry. mairead >>> Mark Weiss 10/10/07 12:29 PM >>> List members might find the shortlist for the National Book Award in=20 poetry amusing.=20 http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/10/the-nba-shortlist/index.html?= hp.=20 Note that the selection committee chairman is Simic. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:57:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710100834n2f186bd9x6f6e82320ab1c8b3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron Silliman, for what it's worth, confessed (or perhaps "confessed" since as I recall he did not seem particularly troubled by the fact) that he was unable to HEAR the great majority of postWWII British and Irish poetry: their ears, their sense of the syllable and the line, didn't work for him. (This on his blog, within the past couple of years....) And for him this inability equated with the inability to read these poets, to value them.... This, I propose, is an inability to read poetry in something seeming rather close to one's own language, and an inability that has everything to do with what being a native speaker means...I add the point simply to suggest that the stakes in this conversation doesn't necessarily amount to simply correcting a prejudice. ---------- V. Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor University of Nevada-Las Vegas Department of English 4504 Maryland Parkway Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 (702) 895-3623 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:26:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Iterations in a binary meditation on Jim Leftwich MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Iterations in a binary meditation on Jim Leftwich: http://vispo.com/dbcinema/leftwich These were generated during a dbcinema search for Jim Leftwich. All the images are 1280x1024. Though the dbcinema search was on 'Jim Leftwich', not all the images are by Jim. I see there's reference to David Baptiste-Chirot, Bob Cobbing, and I see a bpNichol poem in there too. Also did a search for 'Mondrian Kandinsky': http://vispo.com/dbcinema/mondrian-kandinsky/1.jpg and a search on 'Kandinsky': http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/1.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/2.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/3.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/4.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/5.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/6.jpg Still working on dbcinema. It's coming along slowly. The above were generated with the first of many 'brushes' I'll be writing. The 'brush' in the above images is a long, thin rectangle which, each frame of the movie, is rotated a bit more. In any given frame, the 'brush' 'draws'a sliver of whatever picture is current among the images downloaded from the net via the dbcinema query. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:25:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710100834n2f186bd9x6f6e82320ab1c8b3@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Murat: You seem to have missed my response to=20 Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a=20 different subject heading. It's a bit more=20 nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to=20 what I at any rate was talking about. Note that=20 I'm far more interested in the question of=20 language acquisition, and how the acquirer=20 experiences it, than whether when or how one=20 learns it has any influence on how one writes,=20 much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. That said, none of us use any language fully. We=20 come to the table with different abilities and=20 different needs. Presumably one writes=20 differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not= disparagement. One of my translator/scholar friends writes in=20 Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican=20 Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry=20 conference, at which she was one of the few=20 non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard=20 nothing to betray that she had learned the=20 language as a teenager, not even the slight=20 hesitations that for most of us accompany the=20 working-around of a concept that we lack the word=20 for in the new language. She's one of the=20 translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent=20 me her cv so that I could extract a bio note.=20 Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in=20 Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited=20 the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for=20 her a matter of the quality of the product but=20 her consciousness of in her case a small degree=20 of distance. I've been told similar things by=20 other friends who appear to be bilingual, and=20 function as such, but don't claim to be so. You and Pierre are not unique as translators into=20 a second language, in your case from your primary=20 language, in Pierre's from languages learned very=20 young and also more recently acquired languages=20 which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of=20 Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very=20 very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to=20 translate into the acquired language fall short=20 of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's=20 self-translations (I take it on the testimony of=20 Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very=20 great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of=20 himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to=20 have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but=20 you wouldn't guess that from the translations. I do understand that this is a sensitive issue=20 for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about it. As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a=20 polyglot environment that began at the door of=20 the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who=20 was innocent of English until his family arrived=20 in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken=20 English was often odd--over-studied, overly=20 hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his=20 late acquisition, but I heard him speak French=20 over the course of several months spent in Paris=20 at the same time. Many people put forward=20 different aspects of their personalities in their=20 different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly=20 the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of his= English. Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. >I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of=20 >them were raised in environments where two=20 >languages were spoken, whether at home or in the=20 >streets. I've noticed young children in=20 >bilingual environments who speak one language to=20 >their mothers and another to their fathers. I've=20 >asked bilingual adults about their memories of=20 >early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized=20 >their bilingualism at that age. They've all told=20 >me the same thing--they simply spoke the=20 >appropriate language, French, say, to daddy,=20 >english to mommy, without really conceptualizing=20 >them as different languages, much as one learns=20 >early to speak the same language differently to=20 >one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this=20 >all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way. > >I also have a great many friends who approach=20 >bilinguality but come from monolingual=20 >backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They=20 >have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply=20 >don't have. Many of them are professional=20 >translators. None of them have claimed to me to=20 >be fully bilingual--the second language remains=20 >a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. > >Think of it this way. I actively remember the=20 >early acquisition of only a couple of=20 >non-learned words in English. Those words are=20 >forever associated with a place and a time. In=20 >French and Spanish there are a great many such=20 >words. I may not think about their origins for=20 >me very often, but I do when I find myself using=20 >them with the person from whom I learned them.=20 >Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of=20 >the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. > >Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My=20 >Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my=20 >French is a bit better than "practical" and my=20 >Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both=20 >the latter). At one point, when I was living in=20 >France, I hoped that I might become something=20 >closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of=20 >that possibility when I spoke to children or=20 >overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was=20 >reminded that I would never be anything like an=20 >unconscious speaker of the babytalk or=20 >adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I=20 >would also never have the associational=20 >vocabulary that indicates the parents' or=20 >grandparents' generation, nor the emotional=20 >response to same. With an effort I could learn=20 >them as a stranger (and as a translator I have=20 >had to learn some of this), but it would never=20 >become familiar, unconscious usage. > >On one occasion I was walking through the East=20 >Village with two visiting French friends. They=20 >had been a couple for a long time. One of them=20 >suddenly began to speak a language I'd never=20 >heard before. The other answered. The saw my=20 >surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the=20 >French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat pass=E9, I'm told. > >None of this means that one can't learn a=20 >profound degree of competence in a new language.=20 >It does suggest that what one learns isn't a=20 >native's competence. It's a difference, but in=20 >no way a disqualification. Looked at closely=20 >enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which=20 >contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:22:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 10.10.07-10.14.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 10.10.07-10.14.07 Hi Folks, I am back from my cross-country trek. It was amazing=21 You can see picture= s here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8277941=40N04/sets/72157602339973402/ If you are waiting for an email or a call back from me, please be patient= =21 ________________________________________________________________ SPECIAL EVENT Just Buffalo & Hallwalls present a screening of: _ Fully Awake: Black Mountain College_ Presented in person by filmmaker Cathryn Davis. _ Friday, October 12, 8 p.m._ Hallwalls Cinema at Babeville (Formerly The Church) 341 Delaware Ave., at T= upper _ =247 general/=245 students & seniors/=244 members of HW & JB __ A new documentary about the revolutionary North Carolina college of the mid= -20th century, & the poets & other artists who taught, studied, & worked th= ere, many of whom effected our lives here in Buffalo, especially, Robert Cr= eeley and Charles Olson. ________________________________________________________________ BABEL Tickets for individual Babel events are on sale now. They cost =2425 per e= vent. Season Subscription: =2475 (SAVE =2425). TICKETS ARE GOING FAST=21=21=21 We have already sold 65% by subscription. November 8 Orhan Pamuk, Turkey, Winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize Book groups (minimum three people) can subscribe at a special rate of =2460= per person for the whole season. SUBSCRIBE TODAY or PURCHASE individual ti= ckets at http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel or by calling 832-5400. 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Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:45:13 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley: the laureate's language skillz Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 I second Ana's emotions. I was raised in an Italian family that spoke only in a dialect a handful of= people knew. I learned to read and write English only in the 2nd grade or = so, after numerous implorations from my parents' neighbors (I would sing op= era at age 5 to the chagrin of most of the neighborhood).=20 There's something missing from Diane's critique: sound. We're not only read= ing poetry to get at meaning via verbal/grammatical/syntactical cues, but t= hrough the sound of it, the amalgamation of all the elements, and,if so be = it, we want only to focus on these elements, then we have felt at least one= part of the elephant - we can talk to the other dudes who experienced the = tail, the leg, the tusk, the snout, etc. Then, and only then, through some = understanding of the 'social' aspects of poetry, that is, a dialogue spawne= d from a reading involving numerous readers, again, then, and only then, ca= n we have a picture (at least almost a full one) and an understanding of a = poem.=20 It's elitist to be 'a' reader. There's so few of us reading poetry in the f= irst place! What I'm saying is, if we don't experience the many layers of a= poem because we're not native speakers, then how about calling your neighb= or up and sharing a moment? Come on, people! We live in a society not a her= mitage! And to throw another monkey in the pudding - how do native speakers fare if= they're not 'cultured' enough? See what kind of prejudices we undertake wh= en we talk about 'native speakers' and multi-level understanding? Even well= intentioned Americans have no luck in knowing anything because of the subs= criptive powers of advertising and TV and the Fed. Listen to your neighbor = is what I'm saying. Share some intuition. No one has the monopoly on langua= ge and understanding. That is SO not sexy! Christophe=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ana Bozicevic-Bowling" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: On Simic on Creeley: the laureate's language skillz > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:12:06 -0400 >=20 >=20 > I'm coming to this debate a little late in the game (it started on my > birthday!), but was interested to read Diane DiPrima's wonderful & lucid > critique of the Simic article. That is, until I read this line: >=20 > "It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley and > perhaps many other American poets. It is hard--almost impossible--to hear > all the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue." >=20 > As someone who moved to the U.S. at 19 and began to write in English at 22 > (after I was quite sure I had absorbed its "layerings"), I'm disheartened= at > this reductive shot at Simic and other non-native poets. If this criticism > were to be followed to its logical conclusion, should e.g. only the work = of > American/British poets be discussed on this list -- by other > American/British poets? It IS possible not only to learn a language but to > read, write, emote and live in it complexly. I can only wish this on more > U.S.-born poets. >=20 > Ana >=20 > -- > http://quoileternite.blogspot.com/ Blog > http://realpoetik.blogspot.com/ Magazine > http://womenoftheweb.blogspot.com/ Interview > =3D Puerto Vallarta Villa Villa Las Palmeras. Enjoy a stunning five-level, twelve-bedroom villa with = air conditioning, pool, full staff and incredible views. Sleeps up to 50 gu= ests. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D107da3958023a3dc05b14= a4196b15cee --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:02:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition In-Reply-To: <10807487.1192031268105.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There is a recent statement in an interview?by Bernstein that belies this explanation of the equals sign...Bernstein was interviewed by someone on this list I believe...think it's an online mag based out of India...(Karauba?)...and he downplayed any higher meaning...he said they wanted to distinguish the journal from the professional journal that shared the name and from Jack Spicer's use of it...I believe he said something along the lines of "we liked the way it looked"...paraphrasing... -----Original Message----- From: tyrone williams To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:47 am Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition Artanil, Someone else may already have responded to your questions/concerns about the = sign in L=A=N...It has been made clear in a number of publications, including In the Language Tree, that the sign was a reminder that signs (letters) refer, have meaning only in relation, to other letters; their referentail value then is not one of equality but rather one of convention. The "equal" here then means that all signs are sign insofar as they differ from other signs,differences that make them all "equal" in value as signs. Tyrone -----Original Message----- >From: Aryanil Mukherjee >Sent: Oct 10, 2007 7:46 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition > >Dear David > >That's a brilliant piece of writing. Mind's a bucket full of words, >someone said, and sometimes it just outweighs us, our hands refuse >carry its weight. That's how I felt trying to respond to your conscience- >whipper. Too many thoughts to put together into one body. > >So, let me be content with one comment. The = of Language Poetry >may soon begin to look like a barbed wire - I'll bow to that wit. >It's a concern for sure. A real concern. Also I have found the >"=" sign baffling from day one. It makes all letters look alike, all >connotations dissolve into a goo of complete meaninglessness, all >words melt back into one ore. Are they talking about some kind of a hybrid, >universal language like Esperanto - that was my first thought. My last >thought too. > >And BTW, "The Gleaners" is indeed a great film, an inspiring one for >poets. > >Aryanil > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of David Chirot >Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:06 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition > > Forgive essaying to respond to three threads at once, yet i >think they are interrelated in very interesting ways. (I won/t be >bale to them justice here, but an essay at a start--) > Language can play very strange roles in its vaga-bondage from >the throat and fingers into the "aires" or "errors" heard by ears or >errers, and by the I/eye that reads the notations of its reeds. > When i was sixteen i was living in the streets, parks and >abandoned buildings in Paris and for a brief spell with a tiny >Anarchist cell of workers at the Renault factory. After some >operations of the "propaganda of the deed" on unguarded empty police >vans we split up and i was back to living here and there. Often there >would be many young people from various countries sleeping in a park, >or even just eating in a park, and the police would come through and >arrest as many as they could. It's thanks to the police a lifelong >education began in questions of identity, "profiling," handwriting, >finger printing, surveillance photos having to do with language, >whether it's one's first or second, let alone those of which William >S. Burroughs notes in the Preface to Junkie, "a final glossary, >therefore, cannot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." > Alex Dickow made a very important point--that it is not only >the accent which goes into speaking and writing a language in essaying >to learn it, it is many other things which constitute a mosaic-like >surface which in turn has to have when tested beneath this >"camouflaging" as it were the depths and contours of first a relief, >and, if that is discovered, still another level of depths which flow >into the subconscious areas of involuntary memories and dreams. Once >a language has begun to be dreamed in, and have involuntary memories >recalled through, it begins to manifest itself in the outward gestures >and expressions, body language, intonations and inflections, which one >begins "living out" when speaking and writing. > And to go even further into these dreams and memories as well as >in waking consciousness, there is the growing frequency of bi-lingual >(or tri-lingual and more) punnings and neologisms, collaged and >montaged visual/soundscapes that one finds keep turning up "all over >the place" day and night. Arriving in this area, one begins to realize >a proliferation and loosening of "identity" not only in terms of >language but of body language as well. In a sense, one has achieved >the potential if not the existence, really, of being a "double agent." > As usual with language of any kind, "doubling" is at the very >least a "two edged sword." This "doubled agency" can be very >liberating and also very "suspicious," even imprisoning, depending on >the people, places and things one encounters and is involved with. >One minute it's "double your pleasure,/double your fun/when you are >chewing/doublemint gum," and the next it's "where the dangers are >double/and the pleasures are few/where it's dark as the dungeon/and >damp as the dew." > I had only been learning French for a bit less than two years, part >of that while living there and part from movies and books. (I had >gone to Paris to be at the Cinematheque as much as possible; at the >time it was the only place to be for the cine-possesed.) It had by >then entered dream and memory and been making the bi-lingual puns, and >without realizing it had transformed one physically when speaking. >The police, ever guardians of the "prison house(s) of language(s)" >immediately were suspicious. They asserted my american passport was >either forged or stolen and turned me over to the CRS para-military >political police. That was to be the first of a number of nightmarish >times with them. Many of them were Algerian War veterans and into >torture, brutality, inflicting many injuries, some that have never >completely healed. Yet one didn't get beaten to death like an Arab >in an adjoining cell, whose "crime" was thinking himself really a >French citizen as his papers said he was. > One time i was walking down the street and saw some people with >a table and literature. A man came up to me and said--"You're Breton, >aren't you?" Some of my ancestors were from there, but had arrived in >Quebec in 1650. Well--i must learn about the Breton Liberation Front, >then, right? A pleasant afternoon learning about this and helping >handout leaflets and pamphlets. The next time arrested, the police >showed me a foto in which there i was, a "member" of the Liberation >Front. This time it was "association with a group against the >Republic" and this led to another one later, charged with 'terrorism," > ironic considering the Anarchist events were never traced. > When I went to England with my brother some months later, they >didn't believe the passport either. I was put in a detention cell in >the ferry and given a whole battery of English language tests, very >fast--oral, written, reading. Then asked for plane ticket return, >travelers' cheques, and addresses of friends going to visit. My >brother had no such problem. He had been living and working in >Ticino, so wasn't dressed and didn't act the same way. Oddlly, they >believed he was an American (though he looked like an Ticinese >peasant) and said, besides you don't look like brothers. Ten years >later when I went to England again, a variation of the same things >occurred. (In between these visits had read Henry Miller's account >of his unpleasant encounter with the British authorities.) > Similar events followed me across Europe over several trips, the >most complicated one, too long to tell here, involved house arrest in >Poland and appearance before a military court. > In every case, no matter the documentation, the charge involved >at the minimum forged passport and maximum such dangerous ones as >suspicion of terrorism, suspicion of espionage. It didn't matter that >in some countries one didn't know the language at all. Body language >and behaviour was what "told the truth." One had become, in effect, >via bi-linguism, a life long double agent apparently. > This sort of thing once started never seems to stop and has >followed me to Canada and in the USA. Not suspicion of crimes, other >than simply not being American. "Where are you really from, Dave," >said the officer recently investigating what i was doing while working >on some pieces at a site. "The squad car computer 's says you're an >American. You sure about that? Not pulling my leg, now, are you?" > In a funny way, this makes one wonder if one's first language >isn't a foreign one, and from there one goes into the sense of >doubling being at the pulsing heart of any language one encounters. >Years of being involved in other areas of existence only further this, >where indeed the fugitive words and incomplete glossaries that >Burroughs notes, become as much as a part of one's awareness and being >as the standardized versions of language one encounters when not among >fellow speakers of the others. This is one among many other reasons >that i write of my works that they are involved with what is hidden in >plain site/sight/cite. The world one moves in is not simply >bi-lingual, but many, many lingual, though many of the langauges are >of necessity fragmentary, fugitive, in continual flux among the >ongoing flow of al that is. One adapts to a chamelon form of existence >in movements and words, images and sounds, gestures, vocabularies, >grammers that shift with the persons one deals with at any given time >of the day or night. > Walking down a street one watches shadows, reflections for a >much wider multi-angled many-eyed as it were point of view. The same >operates sonically, attuned to echoes to judge distances of others >from oneself, of buildings not yet seen lying ahead or where the >openings of alleys are in the darkest night. In this way I began >working much more with learning to see when working via the touch, the >hands, and training the eyes to be able to feel textures when barely >enough illumination is present. Languages found in darkness among the >unseen things reveberate through the nerves of the fingers to the >mind's throat. > All of these lessons one brings to "language" and so one sees >and hears in language so much that those who use it are unaware of >themselves. (And never let oneself think that is one is "completely >aware," of even but a small part of it at all either.) Thus, a person >who knows a number of languages may well hear in one of them things >that are unheard by those who are limited to that one language only. > That is, if one is seeing and listening and touching in as many >ways possible to learn just what it is in the continual arrangements >of particles what constitutes at any given moment the "language >situation," it is often not at all as it appears to be, presents >itself to be, or thinks itself to be. Areas of the muffling and >deadening or almost complete muteness of language open up, and in them >one finds that it is possible that the images of the world so to speak >become altered and deformed in a myriad ways. > So much of what is taken to be the "facts of the matter," >"time-tested truths", al the rest of it, are dependent on the willing >suspension of disbelief. Complete fabrications, outright lies, >deliberate dis-translations, plagiarized "originality," the smear, the >rumor, the plant, the carefully constructed claims of authority, the >forgery, the doctored tapes, fotos, videos, the fool's gold are all >absolutely essential to the "truth" on which is built "order," >"security," "threat," "the market," "freedom," "history," and the rest >of the gigantic Language which shoves people about and forces most of >them into hells on earth. Every thing must be done to protect and >preserve the "willing suspension of disbelief" that is taken to be the > "clear" "reasonable" thinking of the "well-informed citizen." > The Gazas, Green Zones, Gated Communities of the world are >in the early stages of their developments in terms of the >architectures of security, surveillance, censorship, the making >completely visible within contained areas of persons who are >simultaneously kept invisible to the outside world. (England is also >developing this to extreme degrees. And the new Boeing and >subcontracted Israeli firms Border Fence to be erected all along the >border of the USA and Mexico will be for a while the "showstopper.") > Confinement on a grand scale becomes the new form, the black >hole, into which vanish peoples from history. The erasure is further >carried out by language. To eradicate languages is to cut off their >dreamings, their involuntary memories, their ghostly presences. Even >to begin simply with methods of dis-translation, censorings, bannings, >falsifications or forgeries and the rest of the bag of tricks, is to >begin the work of expunging this existence of a language, of many many >languages. And not only "foreign" languages, but one's "own" language. > Dreamings, desires, behaviours, can slowly be disposed of by the >continual work done on the fictions taken as facts and truths. >Languages of liberation turn quickly into those of the prison, the >torture chamber, the "disappeared." >The "=" sign in "Language" poetry can become pretty fast barbed wire. >And why not? Does it not also need to preserve and protect, become >its own gated community in turn? Is this not why the "English official >language" movement is such a well funded one? Or the reason only >certain forms of writing and reading are taught as the "correct" or >the "resistant" ones? > In a bizzare way, a great deal of effort is put into >simulating in language things which the simulators wittingly or not >are complicit in forcing upon others to live-- and a great many of >these themselves denied literacy, a nice touch! > Language is to be "ruptured," "disrupted," "fragmented," >"chaotic," "Meaningless," to undergo "chance" operations, > to be given the variety of non-translation methods of translation one >can find in various lists of writing exercises, to be subjected to >"shocks," to be "interrogated," to be in short experimented upon in >the ways a great many persons are. The benefit of this to the >experimenters is (supposed to be) that there will be the realization >in "form" of what is taeken to be "radical," and "resistant" to the >System. This is all very much to the benefit of the System, however, >for it gives the "willing suspension of disbelief" its raison >d'etre--the creation of a fiction of resistance, while the System uses >these similarly named methodologies on persons who are in fact >"resistant." > The set-up is dependent on there being one "National" language, >one conception of Language, one form of "language poetry,""language >of poetry," "poetical language" and the like. > Paradoxically, the more that there is this "Oneness," the more >there is the proliferation of the rubble, the waste, the debris, the >broken, the demolished, the rusted, the "useless,"created by its >brutal "construction of the New, the 'post'" "condition." For all the >cleaning, cleanliness and cleansing imposed, there is ever more of >the dirty piling up all around one hidden in plain site/sight/cite. > More and more of the peoples of the world live in these refuse >heaps, the "planet of slums" as Mike Davis calls it in a book of that >name, learning to exist on rubble. "How picturesque," "how admirable >the human spirit," say the fotos and captions of a current series in >the NY Times for example. "Tourism in other people's misery," as the >Situationists aptly described it. > Yet, "Necessity is the motherfucker of invention," one sings to >oneself among the overlooked alleys and dirty bits and pieces of >letterings and forms, and in this already polyglot, already >fragmented, ruptured, thrown away, shell shocked, disaster shocked >refuse is where is found the seeds with which to refuse this gigantic >monomaniacal mono-linguism of simulations and controls. One learns >among these sites/sights/cites refused further utility that there is >indeed the "utility of uselessness," for in the paradox of being thus >hidden, they have endured and still carry within them the languages of >dreams, involuntary memories, ghostly presences, the elements of >rhizomatic languages which, being fugitive, are not part of a complete >or ever to be completed glossary, never to be compiled and "contained" >within > any one book, any two covers, any one language, any one system. > From that necessity comes the discipline through practice of >finding the improvised leap of many El Spontaneos into the ring where >not only the real bulls are encountered, but the rituals, languages, >organizings of the spectacle of Death. Prepared by necessity, myriad >tongued motherfucker of invention, can not the El Spontaneos >improvize the myriad gestures, songs, movements of a refusal of this >spectacle? And in so doing provide a myriad of examples of refusals >from which to take elements to continue the inventions of refusals? > Marcel Duchamp introduced the world to the "ready-made." >Extending his thought further, one finds oneself working with the >ready-refuse. All around one, hidden in plain site,sight, cite--the >polyglot refus-sings. > The ballads of Villon can be heard in all this refuse, in >the Medieval art of necessity still in existence today of "les >Glaneurs," "The Gleaners." (btw this is the name of a very great film >by Agnes Varda on this topic) > I do not think one ever attains what is called "competence" in >any language without in some degree becoming "incompetent" in a >language of living. It is the necessity of living itself that exposes >to one the findings of languages in their multitudes among which one >may learn to work with basic elements to be opening outwo/ards into >and with othernesses. > "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself."--Paul Celan > "I do not seek, I find"--Pablo Picasso (both of them polyglots) Tyrone Williams ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:22:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Iterations in a binary meditation on "Poetics List" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit here are some images drawn with the same brush as the one that made the images in my last post. only these are the result of a search on "poetics list". http://vispo.com/dbcinema/poeticslist/1.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/poeticslist/2.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/poeticslist/3.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/poeticslist/4.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/poeticslist/5.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/poeticslist/6.jpg ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:22:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710100834n2f186bd9x6f6e82320ab1c8b3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm not holding one or another of these positions; I'm only pointing out that the original holding was not that 2nd or subsequent languages meant that one couldn't write well, even poetry, in those languages, but that 2nd and subsequent languages are not READ LIKE one's native language. The assertion was that non-native speakers of English may miss the native- speaking nuances of some native-speaker-written poets, the Creeley/Simic issue as an example. Marcus On 10 Oct 2007 at 11:34, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Marcus, > > I do not agree with your distinction about "nuance" debilitating > reading > either. Do you mean a poet like Zukofsky (to give just one example) > was not > capable of "nuanced" reading, whatever that means? > > Murat > > On 10/10/07, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > Not to put too fine a point on it, but the criticism was NOT that > people > > can't > > WRITE fine poetry in 2nd or 4th or 7th languages, but that they > may miss > > the > > nuances of OTHER PEOPLE's poetry. > > > > This kind of self-defensive reflex is sort of interesting to > watch, but > > not very > > illuminating, and certainly not on point. How many of us think > that we are > > in > > fact able to read poems in our 2nd or 4th or 7th languages as well > as > > native > > speakers do? > > > > Marcus > > > > > > On 10 Oct 2007 at 7:28, Pierre Joris wrote: > > > > > Murat, > > > > > > good point. I would like to add Li Po & Ovid, Anselm Hollo and > > > Andrei > > > Codrescu to the list of poets who wrote excellently in a > language > > > other than the "mother tongue." > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > p.s. I do not speak with simple forked tongue: English is my > fourth > > > language > > > > > > > > > On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:40 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > > > > > Diane is expressing a very old canard. I did not speak a word > of > > > > English > > > > until I was sixteen. I do not think that prevents me from > writing > > > > what I > > > > want in English or read what I want. In fact, in final > analysis > > > > (look I > > > > dropped my the) I find the bent in my hearing and the > > > consciousness > > > > about > > > > language this alienation has caused me a distinct advantage. > > > > > > > > I do not know if you are aware of the number of major > American > > > > poets whose > > > > first/mother tongue was not English: Zukofsky, Stein, > Williams, to > > > > name a > > > > few. > > > > > > > > One may definitely argue that to become an American poet the > poet > > > must > > > > experience English as a foreign language; I explain this in > detail > > > > in the > > > > essay "Questions of Accent," where I also show how Creeley > learns > > > this > > > > alienation from Zukofsky. > > > > > > > > David, is a poet that different from an El Spontaneo, though > to > > > > achieve that > > > > freedom may take years? > > > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/8/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > >> > > > >> David: This is off the mark in a bunch of ways, > > > >> not least the starkness of the opposition you put > > > >> forward, which is hardly what Diane was talking > > > >> about. Life isn't long enough for a detailed > > > >> response. One point I think does need making. > > > >> Diane isn't indulging in anything like patriotic > > > >> games when she says, rather mildly, "It may be > > > >> that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read > > > >> Creeley > > >> is hard > > >> layerings of meaning in any but your native > > > >> tongue." She's merely noting that the acquisition > > > >> of a native ear for all the subtlties of language > > > >> and dialect is very rare after early childhood. > > > >> One can write very well in the acquired language, > > > >> of course, without that degree of awareness of > > > >> the idiom, but even that's extremely rare. > > > >> > > > >> I spent seven years working with Jose Kozer on > > > >> the translation of his poems. Jose has lived in a > > > >> largely English-speaking environment since his > > > >> 18th birthday, and his English is articulate and > > > >> virtually flawless, and barely accented. > > > >> Nonetheless, he is aware that he has nothing like > > > >> the depth of awareness of English that he has of > > > >> Spanish. We often spent hours weighing the > > > >> nuances of a Spanish word and the English > > > >> approximations I planned to use, and he was > > > >> usually unaware of many of the nuances of the English. > > > >> > > > >> Of the examples you give, Conrad never had to > > > >> confront a poetry as subtle as Creeley's, and > > > >> Nabokov's taste in English-language poetry was > > > >> decidedly conservative, almost Russian in its > > > >> formalism. The foreigner's ear tends to overvalue > > > >> the least subtle effects--those he or she can > > > >> hear--in the new language, which is why Dylan > > > >> Thomas, for example, is much more popular among > > > >> Spanish-language poets than among anglophones and > > > >> Lorca's ballads more popular among anglophones > > > >> than the Walt Whitman or the Poet in New York. As > > > >> to Kerouac, his early separation from English was > > > >> nothing near as complete (nor as long-lasting) as > > > >> Conrad's, Nabokov's, or Simic's. > > > >> > > > >> I don't think Simic's inability to hear what's > > > >> going on in Creeley and a great deal of other US > > > >> poetry is of this nature, though. He shares it with a lot > of > > > native > > > >> speakers. > > > >> > > > >> Mark > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> At 01:20 PM 10/8/2007, you wrote: > > > >>> In one of Wiiliam S. Burroughs' recorded pieces, he > > > speaks of > > > >>> "El Spontaneo"--the sudden eruption into the ring at a > Corrida > > > of an > > > >>> aspiring afficianado who momentarliy takes charge, > essaying > > > some > > > >>> passes with his cape and hoping to distract the bull's > attention > > > to > > > >>> himself rather than the "real" Matador. > > > >>> The dangerous intrusion of the run amok amateur into > the > > > >>> world > > > >>> of the professional ritual of Death! > > > >>> Despite many times being hauled away by the > authorities > > > and > > > >>> keepers of order of the ritual, there will be always the > > > >>> reappearance > > > >>> of El Spontaneo! Whether it is the same person or another, > El > > > >>> Spontaneo's unquenchable desire for the immortality of the > > > ring > > > >>> insures repeat performances. > > > >>> One who is a legend in their own mind may take hold > of > > > >>> reality > > > >>> and turn it into their own personal mythology. > > > >>> El Spontaneo literally "puts his life on the line" > in > > > the > > > >>> confrontation with a real Death in a ritual of Death. Yet > the > > > >>> encounter with the bull is denied him by the maintainers > of > > > >>> ritual, > > > >>> of the organized meanings and practices of Death. > > > >>> El Spontaneo is a relative of Don Quixote--who > tilted > > > with > > > >>> windmills thinking them rival Knights, and was beset upon > by > > > real > > > >>> life > > > >>> robbers. It is not the real bull of ritual or the > > > windmills-knights > > > >>> who leave El Spontaneo and Don Quixote battered and bruised, > but > > > the > > > >>> keepers of the gates of the Real. > > > >>> > > > >>> Jack Kerouac was the writer and voice for Spontaneous > Bop > > > >>> Prosody > > > >>> against what he saw as the confinements of "craft." Taking > his > > > cue > > > >>> from an architect friend, Kerouac "sketched" for years in > > > pocket > > > >>> notebooks the views before him, whether the concrete world > or > > > the > > > >>> worlds of memory and dream. Kerouac's visual ksetching > isn't > > > done > > > >>> with the sounds cut off--but to the rhythms heard in the > world > > > >>> around > > > >>> him, and those heard in his head--Be Bop phrasings, > > > Shakesespeare,s > > > >>> sonnets, the utterances and sing song nonsense rhymes of > the > > > Joual > > > >>> language, (Kerouac, like Simic, is not an English-first > > > language > > > >>> speaker/writer, nor was Conrad or Nabokocv so the impugning > of > > > >>> Simic's > > > >>> status as such is rather sad). The sites/sights/cites > Kerouac > > > >>> worked > > > >>> with he found a loose form for in the size of the notebook > > > page. > > > >>> Working with the notebooks, from intense memory and the > > > "legendary" > > > >>> qualities of his life, Kerouac wrote his "Legend of > Dulouz" > > > many > > > >>> volumes of Spontaneous Bop prosody typed at > super-high-octane > > > >>> speeds. > > > >>> "Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an > hour," he > > > >>> said, > > > >>> while Truman Capote opined, "it's not writing, it's > typing." > > > >>> As Diane di Pima pointed out, spontaneity is not > arrived > > > at in > > > >>> the manner of El Spontaneo, who simply leaps in to the ring > with > > > >>> Death > > > >>> and trusts to his imagined Legendary Genius. It is > arrived > > > at--and > > > >>> continues-- through years of disciplined work. Burroughs > noted > > > that > > > >>> even when he first met Kerouac, in the mid 1940's, before > the > > > >>> publication of The Town and the City, written much in the > manner > > > of > > > >>> Thomas Wolfe, Kerouac had written millions of words. When > he > > > >>> "discovered" his Spontaneous Bop Prosody method, Kerouac > had > > > >>> exhausted > > > >>> the methods of "craft" in his search for the "wild form" > he > > > >>> needed to > > > >>> present his "book movie, the original American form." > > > >>> The opening page of "Vanity of Duluoz," Kerouac's > last > > > >>> published > > > >>> novel in his lifteime, he explains that this book will be > > > written in > > > >>> standardized grammar, punctuation, prose, for "the new > > > illiterate > > > >>> generation." In some of his lat essays, he writes of his > > > encounter > > > >>> with "unreadabilitiy"--on the one hand the for him > "unreadable" > > > >>> works > > > >>> of "craft" and on the other, others finding his works > > > "unreadable." > > > >>> Kerouac notes (so to speak) that his work has gone > far > > > >>> over > > > >>> into pure sound. (Bob Cobbing, who published the first > > > complete > > > >>> edition of Kerouac's "Old Angel Midnight" said that this > and > > > Joyce's > > > >>> Finegan's Wake are the two greatest sound poems of the > English > > > >>> language.) Like Russian Futurism's Zaum, Kerouac's > Sponatneous > > > Bop > > > >>> prosody unmorring of words, syllables, letters from > "rational" > > > >>> orderings is a journey into an outer space of "Zaum" > (which > > > >>> translated > > > >>> means "beyond-sense" or "transrational") and so is a writing > of > > > the > > > >>> future, for space explorers, and to get published, he will > have > > > to > > > >>> return to the earth-bound strictures of the prose of Vanity > of > > > >>> Duluoz, > > > >>> to show the skeptics that is not "merely" typing. > > > >>> Don Cherry, the great Jazz musican, would often say > that > > > >>> "Free > > > >>> Jazz canonly be played by superbly disciplined musicians." > It's > > > not > > > >>> like the free form noodling of Freak Out jams, but > something > > > >>> worked at > > > >>> through a lifetime of practice and the continau study of > > > musical > > > >>> forms, an encylopeiac kowledge carried in the mind on which > to > > > be > > > >>> able > > > >>> to draw in the spontaneous creation of the Free. > > > >>> The disagreement and discussion about the Spontaneous > and > > > the > > > >>> "crafted" is a very very old one. One of the most famous > > > >>> examples is > > > >>> "Giotto's Circle." A competition for a large and > > > distinguished, > > > >>> exalted commission was held and painters all over Italy set > to > > > >>> work at > > > >>> their cartoons, sketches, tons of proposed works were > examined, > > > all > > > >>> showing off as much as possible the great skills of the > artists. > > > >>> Yet > > > >>> when the judges came to visit Giotto, he had no piles of > > > impressive > > > >>> work to display at all. > > > >>> The judges were stunned--Giotto not competing? I > will > > > show > > > >>> you all you need to know, said Giotto, and bent down and > drew on > > > the > > > >>> dusty floor a perfect circle. > > > >>> Fortunetly for the history and Legends of > art--the > > > judges > > > >>> were no dummies. They immediately gave the commision to > Giotto > > > for > > > >>> his Spontaneous Creation, for they realized embodied in it > was > > > the > > > >>> most disciplined "craft" in Italy. > > > >>> > > > >>> On the other hand, one can cite a very great many > works > > > >>> which > > > >>> seem to be, sound like, look like, read as, "spontaneous" > > > >>> compositions, sprung like Athena from the head of Zeus or > > > emerging > > > >>> like Aphrodite from the sea. Yet that "spontaneous" surface > is > > > made > > > >>> up of thousands of revisions, repaintings, changes of > notes. > > > >>> Or--as Poe demonstrates in "The Philopshy of > > > Composition," > > > >>> one > > > >>> can first create a work and then reconstruct the creation as > a > > > >>> series > > > >>> of rational choices, made on the basis of well thought > through > > > >>> deductive reasonings of the sort Poe has his detective Dupin > put > > > to > > > >>> use in finding the "Purloined Letter" and solving the > "Murders > > > in > > > >>> the > > > >>> Rue Morgue" and "The Mystery of Marie Roget." (A > fascinating > > > >>> book on > > > >>> the real life case and Poe's fictional "solving" of it > during > > > the > > > >>> course of its ongoing investigation came out this year, > called > > > The > > > >>> Little Cigar Store Girl.) > > > >>> Works that have the explosive energy and fury of > > > spontaneous > > > >>> outbursts like Rimbaud's "A Season in Hell" and the works > of > > > L-F > > > >>> Celine, for example, were actually achieved through a > process > > > of > > > >>> drastic revisions. Mayakovsky's "How Are Verses Made?" > also > > > >>> demonstrates this form of arrival at spontaneity of > > > expression. > > > >>> The same thing can be done in music and film, video > > > >>> studios--the editing of many different different "takes' > can > > > be > > > >>> experienced by the listener and viewer as something > occuring > > > >>> spontaneously, "live" while al the while being made of a > long > > > series > > > >>> of edits, rearrangements, careful "craft" "after the > fact." > > > >>> The question of spontaneity itself in writing is > > > therefore a > > > >>> much more complex question, for it involves asking--what > is > > > the > > > >>> "spontaneous" the writer is working with? Is it the METHOD > of > > > >>> composition itself--or the deductive creation of the > EFFECT > > > of > > > >>> spontaneity? > > > >>> The spontaneous involves more than what I am with > Diane > > > di > > > >>> Prima in thinking of as the meaning of Creeley's use of > the > > > word > > > >>> "momently." I think what Simic is driving at, though he > very > > > much > > > >>> glosses over the whole issue, is that what is "momently" > needs > > > to be > > > >>> sroted out from the consideration of every moment as being > > > >>> "momently" > > > >>> and of every word that one writes being necessarily "of > moment" > > > >>> rather > > > >>> than "of the moment." > > > >>> And then, if that is the case, when choosing what is > > > >>> "momently" > > > >>> how much does the "effect" of the "momently" have to do with > a > > > >>> concern > > > >>> with "spontaneity." > > > >>> That is, is the EFFECT, if not necessarily the > METHOD, > > > of > > > >>> any > > > >>> concern to Simic? > > > >>> El Sponateno can be seen from one point of view as > a > > > poetic > > > >>> character, an amateur so possesed by his own personal > mythology > > > of > > > >>> being a Legend in His Own Mind that he needs no lengthy > > > practice > > > >>> whatsoever to accomplish what the long disciplines of the > > > >>> Professional > > > >>> Matador can. In fact, he assumes that is his own methods > will, > > > of > > > >>> course, be far superior to those of the mundane reality of > the > > > >>> ritualized encounter with Death. Yet to the vast majority > of > > > >>> afficianados, of course El Spontaneo will appear to be > just > > > another > > > >>> deluded asshole interrupting all too mundanely the Art of > the > > > >>> Corrida > > > >>> and its ritual of Death. > > > >>> El Spontaneo, after all, may not be all that > > > spontaneous, > > > >>> having well in mind ahead of time the moment--the > > > "momently"-opening > > > >>> in which to explode into the ring and unveil his Greatness > for > > > the > > > >>> Astonished and Adoring World to Behold! He may actually > turn > > > out to > > > >>> be possesed of some raw talent--many would-be Matadors have > in > > > fact > > > >>> been able to launch a career in this manner--or he may just > be > > > >>> another > > > >>> form of "flasher," "exposing himself in public" for the > world to > > > >>> gawk > > > >>> and reel in revulsion at his pathetic display. > > > >>> Is he making the "leap into the void" of an Yves > > > Klein > > > >>> foto-action Art Work? Or a leap into the void of a > Legend > > > which > > > >>> both > > > >>> ritual and reality are prepared to tear to shreds? > > > >>> I think before the "Simic on Creeley" turns into a > war > > > of > > > >>> competing rhetorics which are presented as drastic > barriers > > > and > > > >>> differences in philosophy, life style, politics, ideologies > of > > > the > > > >>> soul and sociologoies of the criticisms of poetry and who is > and > > > is > > > >>> not allowed to write and speak about them, one would be > much > > > more > > > >>> interested in having the discussion be opened up to a > > > >>> consideration of > > > >>> the ideas and terminologies involved. As I have been trying > to > > > >>> demonstrate, the issue of spontaneity is far more complex > than > > > is > > > >>> being assumed for the most part, and before smashing Mr > Simic > > > to > > > >>> pieces I would rather first like to find out what his sense > of > > > >>> spontaneity is, how he considers differences of Method and > > > Effect in > > > >>> relation to this, which then entails a questioning of > "craft" > > > and > > > >>> what > > > >>> his ideas on these lines are. > > > >>> I think if one began a discussion from the ground up so > to > > > >>> speak, > > > >>> this would lead to a much more illuminating and useful > > > discussion of > > > >>> "poetics" and its roles in poetries and specifically in > those > > > of > > > >>> Robert Creeley and Charles Simic, and of course, whoever > wants > > > to > > > >>> actually carry on a real discussion rather than put on > display > > > the > > > >>> current American pre-emptive attack madness or, the > after-the- > > > >>> reading > > > >>> desire for the head of this "uppity" "foreigner". The > latter > > > betrays > > > >>> to me that Mr Simic is encountering questions of > > > natioanal/ethnic > > > >>> identiy which he hoped I am sure to have left behind,as much > as > > > >>> it is > > > >>> possible, which is not much, the very same violences carried > to > > > >>> their > > > >>> ultimate extremes in his country of origin. > > > >>> All too often anymore, as one knows, suddenly the > question > > > of > > > >>> ethnicity and origins is introduced as a means to impugn a > > > person's > > > >>> thoughts, tastes, understandings, so that anyone who does > not > > > agree > > > >>> 100% with oneself and "the America for which (that) > stands," > > > must of > > > >>> course be if not an "illegal" alien, most certainly a > "suspect" > > > >>> alien, > > > >>> not to be trusted, not to be listened to, not to have any > real > > > right > > > >>> to being part of the conversation among what are recognized > as > > > the > > > >>> "right" humans. > > > >>> I think if a meeting or series of them, or letters > back > > > and > > > >>> forth with Mr Simic could be arranged, this would be very > > > >>> interesting > > > >>> and illuminanting. Requiring the disciplining of > preparing > > > oneself > > > >>> for such an occaission by first arriving at a clearer > > > >>> understanding of > > > >>> what one means when one utters so seemingly simple a word > as > > > >>> "spontaneity," would also help oneself more than simply > > > hurling > > > >>> epithets and turning this one article into a Crusade for > the > > > Holy > > > >>> Land > > > >>> and the USA before even clarifying what the "war" is all > about > > > in > > > >>> the > > > >>> first place. Especially when it involve questions in > "poetics" > > > >>> which > > > >>> are older than Aristotle's. > > > >>> Remember the old cartoon, "I have met the enemy and > he is > > > >>> me?" > > > >>> Discipline isn't only in writing poetry but also in > > > preparing > > > >>> one's critiques of what is one feels is an injustice. > > > Spontaneity in > > > >>> the manner of attacking other's ideas without understanding > even > > > >>> one's > > > >>> own let alone theirs--and if that is what one is accusing > mr > > > >>> simic of, > > > >>> one should be even more aware of this regarding one self > > > before > > > >>> confronting him--such spontanenity can lead straight to > the > > > lynch > > > >>> mob, > > > >>> Already every day there are more and more examples in the > news > > > of > > > >>> persons not allowed to speak or teach or have writings > > > published, > > > >>> speak their minds--in the USA. And the censoring and > firing > > > and > > > >>> banning isn't being done by the crowd at Fox only, by > > > >>> "institutions of > > > >>> higher learning," which supposedly are opposed to such > things. > > > If > > > >>> one believes in Freedom of Speech, then one needs to act > > > responsably > > > >>> before attacking a person,an article with such virulence. > > > >>> That is why, again, I return to the question of > > > >>> spontaneity. > > > >>> Does a "poetics" of the spontaneous have to mean also the > knee > > > jerk > > > >>> reaction to any criticisms, any doubts, any points of > view, > > > which > > > >>> even > > > >>> in the slightest apparently "threaten" one's own? > > > >>> It begins to sound a lot like that phrase from a > > > play > > > >>> employed by I believe Herman Goering--"When I hear the > word > > > >>> 'Culture," > > > >>> I reach for my revolver." > > > >>> "Culture" meaning someone else's idea > > > >>> of it--not one's own, to be sure. > > > >>> Or, in keeping with the complexity of the issue > of > > > the > > > >>> spontaneous yet again, Andre Breton's assertion that "the > > > perfect > > > >>> Surrealist Act" would be to go into a crowd and start firing > at > > > >>> random > > > >>> with a revolver. > > > >>> One can shoot first and ask questions > afterwards. > > > >>> Or, being poets truly concerned with issues of > > > >>> "poetics,"--essay an exchange of letters, > conversations--and > > > find > > > >>> out > > > >>> for oneself as Olson would say. > > > >>> "Don't Believe the Hype"--as Public Enemy says. > > > >>> > > > >>> (By pre-emptive attack madness" I mean that before even > reading > > > the > > > >>> article by Mr Simic, several persons "jumped the gun," and > > > loudly > > > >>> disparaging it, much as some on this list said outright > they > > > >>> would not > > > >>> only attack the Guantanamo Poets book, but on top of that > not > > > even > > > >>> read or buy it! Which latter equivalence I found > > > interesting--that > > > >>> buying and reading are meant to be"=". Heck, I read a > huge > > > >>> number of > > > >>> books at the store without ever buying them. And, so far at > any > > > >>> rate, > > > >>> there arestill public and private libraries in existence > > > also.) > > > >> > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > > > > In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of > art. > > > -- Joseph Beuys > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Pierre Joris > > > 244 Elm Street > > > Albany NY 12202 > > > h: 518 426 0433 > > > c: 518 225 7123 > > > o: 518 442 40 71 > > > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > > > email: joris@albany.edu > > > http://pierrejoris.com/ > > > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release > Date: > > > 10/10/2007 8:43 AM > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: > 10/10/2007 8:43 AM > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:24:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: I'm Reading at SUNY Farmingdale Next Tuesday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hey: I'll be reading my poems and singing a few songs with Stephen B. Antonakos on guitar on Tuesday October, 16th in Ward Hall at the State University of New York at Farmingdale in Long Island at 11am. Stop by If you are in the area--it's free! -- Wanda Phipps Listen to my song "Field of Wanting" on Nefarious Bovine Radio Episode 125: http://www.myspace.com/ or http://www.nefariousbovineradio.com Check out my website MIND HONEY: http://www.mindhoney.com and my latest book of poetry Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems available at: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-31-X and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=rm_item ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:56:22 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: peter darbyshire's cancult Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT in case you haven't seen it, vancouver writer peter darbyshire has started a new blog called cancult http://cancult.ca/ rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:05:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Howe Subject: MAYBE YOU HAD WOODEN FINGERS IN A PAST LIFE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline New on Glossolalia: MAYBE YOU HAD WOODEN FINGERS IN A PAST LIFE, a 16-minute video by Brian Howe and Ashley Howe. MYHWFIAPL premiered at the minor american poetry/art series in Durham, NC, on Oct. 6, which also featured a reading by Jessica Smith. With special thanks to Alan Sondheim, who posted some recordings of Tibetan cymbals to this list, which became a crucial component of the video's soundtrack. MYHWFIAPL is available for stream or download via the Glossolalia website: http://glossolalia-blacksail.blogspot.com/2007/10/glossolalia-video.html Best, Brian Howe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:07:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 10.10.07-10.14.07 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable is it possible to buy the documentary? On 10/10/07 1:22 PM, "Michael Kelleher" wrote: > LITERARY BUFFALO > 10.10.07-10.14.07 >=20 > Hi Folks, >=20 > I am back from my cross-country trek. It was amazing! You can see picture= s > here: >=20 > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8277941@N04/sets/72157602339973402/ >=20 > If you are waiting for an email or a call back from me, please be patient= ! > ________________________________________________________________ >=20 > SPECIAL EVENT >=20 > Just Buffalo & Hallwalls present a screening of: _ > Fully Awake: Black Mountain College_ > Presented in person by filmmaker Cathryn Davis. _ > Friday, October 12, 8 p.m._ > Hallwalls Cinema at Babeville (Formerly The Church) 341 Delaware Ave., at > Tupper _ > $7 general/$5 students & seniors/$4 members of HW & JB __ >=20 > A new documentary about the revolutionary North Carolina college of the > mid-20th century, & the poets & other artists who taught, studied, & work= ed > there, many of whom effected our lives here in Buffalo, especially, Rober= t > Creeley and Charles Olson. > ________________________________________________________________ >=20 > BABEL >=20 > Tickets for individual Babel events are on sale now. They cost $25 per e= vent. >=20 > Season Subscription: $75 (SAVE $25). >=20 > TICKETS ARE GOING FAST!!! We have already sold 65% by subscription. >=20 > November 8 Orhan Pamuk, Turkey, Winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize > December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden > March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize > April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize >=20 > Book groups (minimum three people) can subscribe at a special rate of $60= per > person for the whole season. SUBSCRIBE TODAY or PURCHASE individual ticke= ts at > http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel or by calling 832-5400. Book group > subscriptions by phone only. > ________________________________________________________________ >=20 > EVENTS >=20 > Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. >=20 > 10.10.07 >=20 > Just Buffalo Open Reading > Featured: John Marvin > Wednesday, October 10, 7 p.m. > Carnegie Art Center, 240 Goundry St., North Tonawanda > 10 slots for open readers >=20 > 10.11.07 >=20 > Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State College > Peggy Towers and Noami Gutman > Poetry Reading > Thursday, October 11, 4 p.m. > Rooftop Garden, Butler Library, Buffalo State College >=20 > & >=20 > The Write Thing at Medaille College > Anouar Majid > Fiction Reading > Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. > The Library at Huber Hall, Medaille College, 18 Agassiz Cir. >=20 > & >=20 > Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series > Noah Eli Gordon/Joshua Marie Wilkerson > Poetry Reading > Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. > Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. >=20 > & >=20 > Talking Leaves...Books > Jennifer Campbell > Reading/Signing for Many Colors of Sound (poetry) > Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. > Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. >=20 > 10.12.07 >=20 > Just Buffalo/Hallwalls > Fully Awake: The Black Mountain College Experience > Film Screening and Q & A w/ Director Cathryn Davis > Friday, October 12, 8 p.m. > Hallwalls Cinema at the Church, 341 Delaware (@ Tupper) >=20 > 10.13.07 >=20 > Burchfield-Penney Arts Center > Buffluxus performs The Works Of Emmett Williams > Saturday, October 13, 2 p.m. plus Spoken Music @ 5pm > Burchfield-Penney Arts Center, 1300 Elmwood Avenue >=20 > 10.14.07 >=20 > Just Buffalo Interdisciplinary Event > Back In The Day: Poetry & Music from the 40's to the 70's > Featuring poets Sandra Gilliam and Shirley Sarmiento and musical performa= nces > by George Scott Big Band and vocalist/emcee Joyce Carolyn Butler. > Sunday, October 14, 2 p.m > Unitarian Universalist Church, 695 Elmwood (and Ferry) >=20 > & >=20 > Talking Leaves...Books > Jeffrey Miller > Reading/Signing for Rockin' the Rockpile > Sunday, October 14, 2 p.m. > Talking Leaves...Books, Elmwood Store >=20 > & >=20 > Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo > Perri Klass and Sheila Solomon Klass > Reading and Signing for: Every Mother is a Daughter: The Neverending Ques= t for > Success, Inner Peace, and a Really Clean Kitchen > Sunday, October, 14, 2:00 pm > $12, $5 students > Jewish Communtiy Center of Greater Buffalo > 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 > Admission includes "High Tea" reception and a raffle for manicures/pedicu= res >=20 > & >=20 > Spoken Word Sundays > Lisa Forrest With Gregory Paul, & Stan Worthy > Sunday, September 16, 8 p.m. > Allen Street Hardware, 245 Allen St., Buffalo > Sign up at 7:45 for Open readers (5 minutes each) >=20 > ________________________________________________________________ >=20 > JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP >=20 > Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer > critique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic > Market Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and= 3rd > Wednesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. >=20 > ________________________________________________________________ >=20 >=20 > WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every > month at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harle= m > Road, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. >=20 > ________________________________________________________________ >=20 >=20 > JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE!!! >=20 > If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal > donation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently = added > the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. > Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log= in > (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), an= d > voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or to j= oin > now, go to our website: >=20 > http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml >=20 > ________________________________________________________________ >=20 > UNSUBSCRIBE >=20 > If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will= be > immediately removed. > _______________________________ > Michael Kelleher > Artistic Director > Just Buffalo Literary Center > Market Arcade > 617 Main St., Ste. 202A > Buffalo, NY 14203 > 716.832.5400 > 716.270.0184 (fax) > www.justbuffalo.org > mjk@justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:09:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Simic again. He's everywhere! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oy vey bigtime Mairead Byrne wrote: > Oh gosh poor poetry. > mairead > > >>>> Mark Weiss 10/10/07 12:29 PM >>> >>>> > List members might find the shortlist for the National Book Award in > poetry amusing. > http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/10/the-nba-shortlist/index.html?hp. > Note that the selection committee chairman is Simic. > > Mark > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:42:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: urgent photography tech question Comments: To: british-irish-poets@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Anybody out there with a Nikon D 70 please backchannel. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:51:16 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: On Simic on Creeley: the laureate's language skillz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "I learned to read English before I could read Russian."--Nabokov, Speak, Memory (in Novels and Memoirs 1941-1951, Library of America), p. 423. Nicholas Karavatos wrote: Let's not forget that Jack Kerouac was an "ESL" novelist. Or, would we consider him bilingual from birth? And when did Nabokov learn English? Wasn't it his third language, or am I mistaken? Nicholas Karavatos Dept of Language & Literature American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:12:06 -0400 > From: anabobo@GMAIL.COM > Subject: On Simic on Creeley: the laureate's language skillz > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > I'm coming to this debate a little late in the game (it started on my > birthday!), but was interested to read Diane DiPrima's wonderful & lucid > critique of the Simic article. That is, until I read this line: > > "It may be that Mr. Simic lacks the language skills to read Creeley and > perhaps many other American poets. It is hard--almost impossible--to hear > all the layerings of meaning in any but your native tongue." > > As someone who moved to the U.S. at 19 and began to write in English at 22 > (after I was quite sure I had absorbed its "layerings"), I'm disheartened at > this reductive shot at Simic and other non-native poets. If this criticism > were to be followed to its logical conclusion, should e.g. only the work of > American/British poets be discussed on this list -- by other > American/British poets? It IS possible not only to learn a language but to > read, write, emote and live in it complexly. I can only wish this on more > U.S.-born poets. > > Ana > > -- > http://quoileternite.blogspot.com/ Blog > http://realpoetik.blogspot.com/ Magazine > http://womenoftheweb.blogspot.com/ Interview _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:31:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition: KAURAB In-Reply-To: <8C9D97ED7A09266-904-2697@webmail-de12.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill: The name of the journal is Kaurab it is on line the editor is the person to whom you are indirectly replying, and who condu= cted the interview with Charles Bernstein his name is Aryanil Mukherjee the latest issue, #22 of the online series, has an excellent interview with= John Ashbery, also conducted by Aryanil > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:02:22 -0400 > From: bewitjanus@AOL.COM > Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > There is a recent statement in an interview?by Bernstein that belies this= explanation of the equals sign...Bernstein was interviewed by someone on t= his list I believe...think it's an online mag based out of India...(Karauba= ?)...and he downplayed any higher meaning...he said they wanted to distingu= ish the journal from the professional journal that shared the name and from= Jack Spicer's use of it...I believe he said something along the lines of "= we liked the way it looked"...paraphrasing... >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tyrone williams > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:47 am > Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition >=20 >=20 >=20 > Artanil, >=20 > Someone else may already have responded to your questions/concerns about = the =3D=20 > sign in L=3DA=3DN...It has been made clear in a number of publications, i= ncluding In=20 > the Language Tree, that the sign was a reminder that signs (letters) refe= r, have=20 > meaning only in relation, to other letters; their referentail value then = is not=20 > one of equality but rather one of convention. The "equal" here then means= that=20 > all signs are sign insofar as they differ from other signs,differences th= at make=20 > them all "equal" in value as signs.=20 >=20 > Tyrone >=20 > -----Original Message----- > >From: Aryanil Mukherjee > >Sent: Oct 10, 2007 7:46 AM > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition > > > >Dear David > > > >That's a brilliant piece of writing. Mind's a bucket full of words, > >someone said, and sometimes it just outweighs us, our hands refuse=20 > >carry its weight. That's how I felt trying to respond to your conscience= - > >whipper. Too many thoughts to put together into one body. > > > >So, let me be content with one comment. The =3D of Language Poetry > >may soon begin to look like a barbed wire - I'll bow to that wit. > >It's a concern for sure. A real concern. Also I have found the=20 > >"=3D" sign baffling from day one. It makes all letters look alike, all > >connotations dissolve into a goo of complete meaninglessness, all=20 > >words melt back into one ore. Are they talking about some kind of a hybr= id, > >universal language like Esperanto - that was my first thought. My last > >thought too. > > > >And BTW, "The Gleaners" is indeed a great film, an inspiring one for > >poets. > > > >Aryanil > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On > >Behalf Of David Chirot > >Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:06 PM > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: El Spontaneo/Villon/Language acquisition > > > > Forgive essaying to respond to three threads at once, yet i > >think they are interrelated in very interesting ways. (I won/t be > >bale to them justice here, but an essay at a start--) > > Language can play very strange roles in its vaga-bondage from > >the throat and fingers into the "aires" or "errors" heard by ears or > >errers, and by the I/eye that reads the notations of its reeds. > > When i was sixteen i was living in the streets, parks and > >abandoned buildings in Paris and for a brief spell with a tiny > >Anarchist cell of workers at the Renault factory. After some > >operations of the "propaganda of the deed" on unguarded empty police > >vans we split up and i was back to living here and there. Often there > >would be many young people from various countries sleeping in a park, > >or even just eating in a park, and the police would come through and > >arrest as many as they could. It's thanks to the police a lifelong > >education began in questions of identity, "profiling," handwriting, > >finger printing, surveillance photos having to do with language, > >whether it's one's first or second, let alone those of which William > >S. Burroughs notes in the Preface to Junkie, "a final glossary, > >therefore, cannot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." > > Alex Dickow made a very important point--that it is not only > >the accent which goes into speaking and writing a language in essaying > >to learn it, it is many other things which constitute a mosaic-like > >surface which in turn has to have when tested beneath this > >"camouflaging" as it were the depths and contours of first a relief, > >and, if that is discovered, still another level of depths which flow > >into the subconscious areas of involuntary memories and dreams. Once > >a language has begun to be dreamed in, and have involuntary memories > >recalled through, it begins to manifest itself in the outward gestures > >and expressions, body language, intonations and inflections, which one > >begins "living out" when speaking and writing. > > And to go even further into these dreams and memories as well as > >in waking consciousness, there is the growing frequency of bi-lingual > >(or tri-lingual and more) punnings and neologisms, collaged and > >montaged visual/soundscapes that one finds keep turning up "all over > >the place" day and night. Arriving in this area, one begins to realize > >a proliferation and loosening of "identity" not only in terms of > >language but of body language as well. In a sense, one has achieved > >the potential if not the existence, really, of being a "double agent." > > As usual with language of any kind, "doubling" is at the very > >least a "two edged sword." This "doubled agency" can be very > >liberating and also very "suspicious," even imprisoning, depending on > >the people, places and things one encounters and is involved with. > >One minute it's "double your pleasure,/double your fun/when you are > >chewing/doublemint gum," and the next it's "where the dangers are > >double/and the pleasures are few/where it's dark as the dungeon/and > >damp as the dew." > > I had only been learning French for a bit less than two years, part > >of that while living there and part from movies and books. (I had > >gone to Paris to be at the Cinematheque as much as possible; at the > >time it was the only place to be for the cine-possesed.) It had by > >then entered dream and memory and been making the bi-lingual puns, and > >without realizing it had transformed one physically when speaking. > >The police, ever guardians of the "prison house(s) of language(s)" > >immediately were suspicious. They asserted my american passport was > >either forged or stolen and turned me over to the CRS para-military > >political police. That was to be the first of a number of nightmarish > >times with them. Many of them were Algerian War veterans and into > >torture, brutality, inflicting many injuries, some that have never > >completely healed. Yet one didn't get beaten to death like an Arab > >in an adjoining cell, whose "crime" was thinking himself really a > >French citizen as his papers said he was. > > One time i was walking down the street and saw some people with > >a table and literature. A man came up to me and said--"You're Breton, > >aren't you?" Some of my ancestors were from there, but had arrived in > >Quebec in 1650. Well--i must learn about the Breton Liberation Front, > >then, right? A pleasant afternoon learning about this and helping > >handout leaflets and pamphlets. The next time arrested, the police > >showed me a foto in which there i was, a "member" of the Liberation > >Front. This time it was "association with a group against the > >Republic" and this led to another one later, charged with 'terrorism," > > ironic considering the Anarchist events were never traced. > > When I went to England with my brother some months later, they > >didn't believe the passport either. I was put in a detention cell in > >the ferry and given a whole battery of English language tests, very > >fast--oral, written, reading. Then asked for plane ticket return, > >travelers' cheques, and addresses of friends going to visit. My > >brother had no such problem. He had been living and working in > >Ticino, so wasn't dressed and didn't act the same way. Oddlly, they > >believed he was an American (though he looked like an Ticinese > >peasant) and said, besides you don't look like brothers. Ten years > >later when I went to England again, a variation of the same things > >occurred. (In between these visits had read Henry Miller's account > >of his unpleasant encounter with the British authorities.) > > Similar events followed me across Europe over several trips, the > >most complicated one, too long to tell here, involved house arrest in > >Poland and appearance before a military court. > > In every case, no matter the documentation, the charge involved > >at the minimum forged passport and maximum such dangerous ones as > >suspicion of terrorism, suspicion of espionage. It didn't matter that > >in some countries one didn't know the language at all. Body language > >and behaviour was what "told the truth." One had become, in effect, > >via bi-linguism, a life long double agent apparently. > > This sort of thing once started never seems to stop and has > >followed me to Canada and in the USA. Not suspicion of crimes, other > >than simply not being American. "Where are you really from, Dave," > >said the officer recently investigating what i was doing while working > >on some pieces at a site. "The squad car computer 's says you're an > >American. You sure about that? Not pulling my leg, now, are you?" > > In a funny way, this makes one wonder if one's first language > >isn't a foreign one, and from there one goes into the sense of > >doubling being at the pulsing heart of any language one encounters. > >Years of being involved in other areas of existence only further this, > >where indeed the fugitive words and incomplete glossaries that > >Burroughs notes, become as much as a part of one's awareness and being > >as the standardized versions of language one encounters when not among > >fellow speakers of the others. This is one among many other reasons > >that i write of my works that they are involved with what is hidden in > >plain site/sight/cite. The world one moves in is not simply > >bi-lingual, but many, many lingual, though many of the langauges are > >of necessity fragmentary, fugitive, in continual flux among the > >ongoing flow of al that is. One adapts to a chamelon form of existence > >in movements and words, images and sounds, gestures, vocabularies, > >grammers that shift with the persons one deals with at any given time > >of the day or night. > > Walking down a street one watches shadows, reflections for a > >much wider multi-angled many-eyed as it were point of view. The same > >operates sonically, attuned to echoes to judge distances of others > >from oneself, of buildings not yet seen lying ahead or where the > >openings of alleys are in the darkest night. In this way I began > >working much more with learning to see when working via the touch, the > >hands, and training the eyes to be able to feel textures when barely > >enough illumination is present. Languages found in darkness among the > >unseen things reveberate through the nerves of the fingers to the > >mind's throat. > > All of these lessons one brings to "language" and so one sees > >and hears in language so much that those who use it are unaware of > >themselves. (And never let oneself think that is one is "completely > >aware," of even but a small part of it at all either.) Thus, a person > >who knows a number of languages may well hear in one of them things > >that are unheard by those who are limited to that one language only. > > That is, if one is seeing and listening and touching in as many > >ways possible to learn just what it is in the continual arrangements > >of particles what constitutes at any given moment the "language > >situation," it is often not at all as it appears to be, presents > >itself to be, or thinks itself to be. Areas of the muffling and > >deadening or almost complete muteness of language open up, and in them > >one finds that it is possible that the images of the world so to speak > >become altered and deformed in a myriad ways. > > So much of what is taken to be the "facts of the matter," > >"time-tested truths", al the rest of it, are dependent on the willing > >suspension of disbelief. Complete fabrications, outright lies, > >deliberate dis-translations, plagiarized "originality," the smear, the > >rumor, the plant, the carefully constructed claims of authority, the > >forgery, the doctored tapes, fotos, videos, the fool's gold are all > >absolutely essential to the "truth" on which is built "order," > >"security," "threat," "the market," "freedom," "history," and the rest > >of the gigantic Language which shoves people about and forces most of > >them into hells on earth. Every thing must be done to protect and > >preserve the "willing suspension of disbelief" that is taken to be the > > "clear" "reasonable" thinking of the "well-informed citizen." > > The Gazas, Green Zones, Gated Communities of the world are > >in the early stages of their developments in terms of the > >architectures of security, surveillance, censorship, the making > >completely visible within contained areas of persons who are > >simultaneously kept invisible to the outside world. (England is also > >developing this to extreme degrees. And the new Boeing and > >subcontracted Israeli firms Border Fence to be erected all along the > >border of the USA and Mexico will be for a while the "showstopper.") > > Confinement on a grand scale becomes the new form, the black > >hole, into which vanish peoples from history. The erasure is further > >carried out by language. To eradicate languages is to cut off their > >dreamings, their involuntary memories, their ghostly presences. Even > >to begin simply with methods of dis-translation, censorings, bannings, > >falsifications or forgeries and the rest of the bag of tricks, is to > >begin the work of expunging this existence of a language, of many many > >languages. And not only "foreign" languages, but one's "own" language. > > Dreamings, desires, behaviours, can slowly be disposed of by the > >continual work done on the fictions taken as facts and truths. > >Languages of liberation turn quickly into those of the prison, the > >torture chamber, the "disappeared." > >The "=3D" sign in "Language" poetry can become pretty fast barbed wire. > >And why not? Does it not also need to preserve and protect, become > >its own gated community in turn? Is this not why the "English official > >language" movement is such a well funded one? Or the reason only > >certain forms of writing and reading are taught as the "correct" or > >the "resistant" ones? > > In a bizzare way, a great deal of effort is put into > >simulating in language things which the simulators wittingly or not > >are complicit in forcing upon others to live-- and a great many of > >these themselves denied literacy, a nice touch! > > Language is to be "ruptured," "disrupted," "fragmented," > >"chaotic," "Meaningless," to undergo "chance" operations, > > to be given the variety of non-translation methods of translation one > >can find in various lists of writing exercises, to be subjected to > >"shocks," to be "interrogated," to be in short experimented upon in > >the ways a great many persons are. The benefit of this to the > >experimenters is (supposed to be) that there will be the realization > >in "form" of what is taeken to be "radical," and "resistant" to the > >System. This is all very much to the benefit of the System, however, > >for it gives the "willing suspension of disbelief" its raison > >d'etre--the creation of a fiction of resistance, while the System uses > >these similarly named methodologies on persons who are in fact > >"resistant." > > The set-up is dependent on there being one "National" language, > >one conception of Language, one form of "language poetry,""language > >of poetry," "poetical language" and the like. > > Paradoxically, the more that there is this "Oneness," the more > >there is the proliferation of the rubble, the waste, the debris, the > >broken, the demolished, the rusted, the "useless,"created by its > >brutal "construction of the New, the 'post'" "condition." For all the > >cleaning, cleanliness and cleansing imposed, there is ever more of > >the dirty piling up all around one hidden in plain site/sight/cite. > > More and more of the peoples of the world live in these refuse > >heaps, the "planet of slums" as Mike Davis calls it in a book of that > >name, learning to exist on rubble. "How picturesque," "how admirable > >the human spirit," say the fotos and captions of a current series in > >the NY Times for example. "Tourism in other people's misery," as the > >Situationists aptly described it. > > Yet, "Necessity is the motherfucker of invention," one sings to > >oneself among the overlooked alleys and dirty bits and pieces of > >letterings and forms, and in this already polyglot, already > >fragmented, ruptured, thrown away, shell shocked, disaster shocked > >refuse is where is found the seeds with which to refuse this gigantic > >monomaniacal mono-linguism of simulations and controls. One learns > >among these sites/sights/cites refused further utility that there is > >indeed the "utility of uselessness," for in the paradox of being thus > >hidden, they have endured and still carry within them the languages of > >dreams, involuntary memories, ghostly presences, the elements of > >rhizomatic languages which, being fugitive, are not part of a complete > >or ever to be completed glossary, never to be compiled and "contained" > >within > > any one book, any two covers, any one language, any one system. > > From that necessity comes the discipline through practice of > >finding the improvised leap of many El Spontaneos into the ring where > >not only the real bulls are encountered, but the rituals, languages, > >organizings of the spectacle of Death. Prepared by necessity, myriad > >tongued motherfucker of invention, can not the El Spontaneos > >improvize the myriad gestures, songs, movements of a refusal of this > >spectacle? And in so doing provide a myriad of examples of refusals > >from which to take elements to continue the inventions of refusals? > > Marcel Duchamp introduced the world to the "ready-made." > >Extending his thought further, one finds oneself working with the > >ready-refuse. All around one, hidden in plain site,sight, cite--the > >polyglot refus-sings. > > The ballads of Villon can be heard in all this refuse, in > >the Medieval art of necessity still in existence today of "les > >Glaneurs," "The Gleaners." (btw this is the name of a very great film > >by Agnes Varda on this topic) > > I do not think one ever attains what is called "competence" in > >any language without in some degree becoming "incompetent" in a > >language of living. It is the necessity of living itself that exposes > >to one the findings of languages in their multitudes among which one > >may learn to work with basic elements to be opening outwo/ards into > >and with othernesses. > > "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself."--Paul Celan > > "I do not seek, I find"--Pablo Picasso (both of them polyglots= ) >=20 >=20 > Tyrone Williams >=20 >=20 > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - h= ttp://mail.aol.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:20:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: (FW) Can an entire publishing company disappear from the US? Howard Zinn has an open letter about Pluto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This is from MuzzleWatch, Jewish Voices for Peace Can an entire publishing company disappear from the US? Howard Zinn has an open letter about Pluto http://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=266 The sender also included this note: Here's some information on Pluto Press; you can download the entire Fall 2007 Catalog via the link in the article to U Michigan Press Pluto Press, established in 1970, is one of the UK's leading independent publishers. Pluto Press is committed to publishing the best in critical writing across the social sciences and humanities. Pluto authors include Noam Chomsky, Sheila Rowbotham, Pierre Bourdieu, Jean Baudrillard, Frantz Fanon, Hal Foster, Augusto Boal, Susan George, Israel Shahak, Antonio Gramsci, John Pilger, Manning Marable, Edward S. Herman and bell hooks. Pluto Press currently publishes over 60 titles a year and has an extensive backlist of over 400 titles. View Pluto Press Series Pluto Press 345 Archway Road London N6 5AA Phone: 44 (0)208 348 2724 Fax: 44 (0)208 348 9133 Email: pluto@plutobooks.com http://www.plutobooks.com - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:42:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: MEN OF THE WEB WIDE WORLD OF POETRY Comments: To: Geoffrey Gatza Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello! Here is a new interview http://menoftheweb.blogspot.com/2007/10/geoffrey-gatza.html#links Also thank you for participating in the....drum roll....... MEN OF THE WEB WIDE WORLD OF POETRY. http://menoftheweb.blogspot.com/ -- Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza Editor & Publisher ------------------------------------- BlazeVOX [ books ] Publisher of weird little books -------------------------------------- editor@blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:15:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Ampersand in Connecticut field MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ampersand in Connecticut field -- Peter Ciccariello NEW RELEASE UNCOMMON VISION - The Art of Peter Ciccariello http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ 66 pp. 42 color plates. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:50:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071010124655.06270008@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Mark, I was basically responding to Diane's comment, if I understood her correctly, that Simic did not, could not understand the subtleties in C's poetry because he was a foreigner. I think that argument is basically nonsensical. I love C's poetry. But it is possible to understand C's poetry fully and still not like it. For almost a hundred years people did not like Dickinson's poetry. Most of these people were native speaking New Englanders. But, I was referring to something beyond that, something related to the nature of American English as a poetic language and to the nature of American culture: a) In our day, American English functions as an imperial language, as a lingua franca, even for its "native" speaker. One may call it a "step-mother" tongue. The relation of the poet to such a language is different from a poet using a "mother" tongue. It involves a subtle linguistic alienation which the poet needs to confront and, to my mind, exploit. b) Since the advent of photography in the 19th century, later tabloid newspapers, movies, etc., the main medium of public communication, of myth building in The United States has progressively been visual, not words. As = a result, verbal language in a subtle way is shunted aside. A very significan= t schism has occurred between public (imperial) language and mother tongue. The American poetry is written in a step-mother tongue, the "mother tongue" trying to carve entries into this monolith. As a result, unlike in English or French poetry for instance, the idea of tradition does not exist in American poetry. (But this is another argument.) Ciao, Murat On 10/10/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Murat: You seem to have missed my response to > Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a > different subject heading. It's a bit more > nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to > what I at any rate was talking about. Note that > I'm far more interested in the question of > language acquisition, and how the acquirer > experiences it, than whether when or how one > learns it has any influence on how one writes, > much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. > > That said, none of us use any language fully. We > come to the table with different abilities and > different needs. Presumably one writes > differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not > disparagement. > > One of my translator/scholar friends writes in > Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican > Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry > conference, at which she was one of the few > non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard > nothing to betray that she had learned the > language as a teenager, not even the slight > hesitations that for most of us accompany the > working-around of a concept that we lack the word > for in the new language. She's one of the > translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent > me her cv so that I could extract a bio note. > Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in > Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited > the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for > her a matter of the quality of the product but > her consciousness of in her case a small degree > of distance. I've been told similar things by > other friends who appear to be bilingual, and > function as such, but don't claim to be so. > > You and Pierre are not unique as translators into > a second language, in your case from your primary > language, in Pierre's from languages learned very > young and also more recently acquired languages > which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of > Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very > very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to > translate into the acquired language fall short > of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's > self-translations (I take it on the testimony of > Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very > great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of > himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to > have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but > you wouldn't guess that from the translations. > > I do understand that this is a sensitive issue > for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about it. > > As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a > polyglot environment that began at the door of > the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. > > A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who > was innocent of English until his family arrived > in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken > English was often odd--over-studied, overly > hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his > late acquisition, but I heard him speak French > over the course of several months spent in Paris > at the same time. Many people put forward > different aspects of their personalities in their > different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly > the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of his > English. > > Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. > > >I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of > >them were raised in environments where two > >languages were spoken, whether at home or in the > >streets. I've noticed young children in > >bilingual environments who speak one language to > >their mothers and another to their fathers. I've > >asked bilingual adults about their memories of > >early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized > >their bilingualism at that age. They've all told > >me the same thing--they simply spoke the > >appropriate language, French, say, to daddy, > >english to mommy, without really conceptualizing > >them as different languages, much as one learns > >early to speak the same language differently to > >one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this > >all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way. > > > >I also have a great many friends who approach > >bilinguality but come from monolingual > >backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They > >have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply > >don't have. Many of them are professional > >translators. None of them have claimed to me to > >be fully bilingual--the second language remains > >a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. > > > >Think of it this way. I actively remember the > >early acquisition of only a couple of > >non-learned words in English. Those words are > >forever associated with a place and a time. In > >French and Spanish there are a great many such > >words. I may not think about their origins for > >me very often, but I do when I find myself using > >them with the person from whom I learned them. > >Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of > >the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. > > > >Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My > >Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my > >French is a bit better than "practical" and my > >Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both > >the latter). At one point, when I was living in > >France, I hoped that I might become something > >closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of > >that possibility when I spoke to children or > >overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was > >reminded that I would never be anything like an > >unconscious speaker of the babytalk or > >adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I > >would also never have the associational > >vocabulary that indicates the parents' or > >grandparents' generation, nor the emotional > >response to same. With an effort I could learn > >them as a stranger (and as a translator I have > >had to learn some of this), but it would never > >become familiar, unconscious usage. > > > >On one occasion I was walking through the East > >Village with two visiting French friends. They > >had been a couple for a long time. One of them > >suddenly began to speak a language I'd never > >heard before. The other answered. The saw my > >surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the > >French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat pass=E9, I'm told. > > > >None of this means that one can't learn a > >profound degree of competence in a new language. > >It does suggest that what one learns isn't a > >native's competence. It's a difference, but in > >no way a disqualification. Looked at closely > >enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which > >contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. > > Mark > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:08:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Barrett Watten & Andrew Levy @ SEGUE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi New York Readers ... this is going to be a great one ... please come on = time as the BPC schedules events back to back. See you there! --Gary BARRETT WATTEN and ANDREW LEVY Saturday October 13, 4:00-6:00 p.m. Segue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, one block above Houston Andrew Levy is a contributing writer on President of the United Hearts' The= Big Melt (Factory School, 2007), and he is the author of a dozen books of = poetry, including Ashoka (Zasterle Books), Paper Head Last Lyrics (Roof Boo= ks), Curve 2 (Potes & Poets Press), Values Chauffeur You (O Books), and Dem= ocracy Assemblages (Innerer Klang). He is editor, with Roberto Harrison, of= the poetry journal Crayon. Barrett Watten founded the Grand Piano reading series in 1976 and edited an= d published This from 1971. His most recent books are Bad History (Atelos, = 1998), Progress/Under Erasure (Green Integer, 2004), and The Constructivist= Moment: From Material Text to Cultural Poetics (Wesleyan University Press,= 2003), which won the 2004 Ren=E9 Wellek Prize _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 05:40:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: How China Got Religion - essay by Slovaj Zizek MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline as always some provocative ideas from Mr Zizek-- the Chinese government feeling that Buddhism is good because it helps promote harmony is an echo of studies on how Buddhists are found by American corporations and businesses to be ideal kinds of workers for a similar reason-- "it's the economy stupid" is the "hidden tiger"-- that and control--(whose idea of what harmony meansand sounds like--) and "empty" 'cultural' forms faced by ones taken to be real-- which paradoxically seems "hard to believe"-- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/opinion/11zizek.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:56:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William James Austin Subject: Re: MEN OF THE WEB WIDE WORLD OF POETRY In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great interview!? Congrats!? Best, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Gatza To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 5:42 pm Subject: MEN OF THE WEB WIDE WORLD OF POETRY Hello! Here is a new interview http://menoftheweb.blogspot.com/2007/10/geoffrey-gatza.html#links Also thank you for participating in the....drum roll....... MEN OF THE WEB WIDE WORLD OF POETRY. http://menoftheweb.blogspot.com/ -- Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza Editor & Publisher ------------------------------------- BlazeVOX [ books ] Publisher of weird little books -------------------------------------- editor@blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:50:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: New Journal from India: Almost Island Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Check out the new online journal from India: Almost Island. It features a "tape-essay" by Tosa Motokiyu, Ojiu Norinaga, and Okura Kyojin available here: http://www.almostisland.com. In it Motokiyu et al suggest that Kenneth Koch actually wrote the poem "A True Account of Talking to the Sun at Fire Island" as an homage to Frank O'Hara. This is a compelling document on the composition of an iconic New York School poem. Other work included also by Sarah Shun-lien Bynum, Mikhail N. Epstein, Kent Johnson, and others. -- Dale Smith La Revolution Opossum! http://www.skankypossum.com http://possumego.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:19:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710102150gd3870a3jbd83ed9f8fc337c3@mail.gmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Murat: Much here to elucidate and argue over.=20 I'll confine myself to a very few things: 1. I personally don't care if Simic (or anyone=20 else, for that matter) likes Creeley's work. What=20 concerned me in the review was the terms of the=20 criticism, which set Creeley up to represent and=20 condemn an entire school of American poetry (and=20 British, too, if Simic's eye strayed that far). 2. "For almost a hundred years people did not=20 like Dickinson's poetry." This mystifies me.=20 Sure, there were some hostile critics, but much=20 of the initial reception of the poems when they=20 first came out in the 1890s, from critics and=20 from the reading public (there used to be a=20 reading public), was enthusiastic. The=20 anthologies that I grew up with, rmy mother's=20 course books in High School and college, first=20 published in the 20s and 30s, devoted as much=20 space to Dickinson as to Whitman, each of whom=20 received more space than anyone else. 3. "The idea of tradition does not exist in=20 American poetry." I don't think this is true. But=20 perhaps you mean tradition in a special sense? Mark At 12:50 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >Mark, > >I was basically responding to Diane's comment, if I understood her >correctly, that Simic did not, could not understand the subtleties in C's >poetry because he was a foreigner. I think that argument is basically >nonsensical. I love C's poetry. But it is possible to understand C's poetry >fully and still not like it. For almost a hundred years people did not like >Dickinson's poetry. Most of these people were native speaking New >Englanders. > >But, I was referring to something beyond that, something related to the >nature of American English as a poetic language and to the nature of >American culture: > >a) In our day, American English functions as an imperial language, as a >lingua franca, even for its "native" speaker. One may call it a >"step-mother" tongue. The relation of the poet to such a language is >different from a poet using a "mother" tongue. It involves a subtle >linguistic alienation which the poet needs to confront and, to my mind, >exploit. > >b) Since the advent of photography in the 19th century, later tabloid >newspapers, movies, etc., the main medium of public communication, of myth >building in The United States has progressively been visual, not words. As= a >result, verbal language in a subtle way is shunted aside. A very= significant >schism has occurred between public (imperial) language and mother tongue. >The American poetry is written in a step-mother tongue, the "mother tongue" >trying to carve entries into this monolith. As a result, unlike in English >or French poetry for instance, the idea of tradition does not exist in >American poetry. (But this is another argument.) > >Ciao, > >Murat > > >On 10/10/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > Murat: You seem to have missed my response to > > Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a > > different subject heading. It's a bit more > > nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to > > what I at any rate was talking about. Note that > > I'm far more interested in the question of > > language acquisition, and how the acquirer > > experiences it, than whether when or how one > > learns it has any influence on how one writes, > > much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. > > > > That said, none of us use any language fully. We > > come to the table with different abilities and > > different needs. Presumably one writes > > differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not > > disparagement. > > > > One of my translator/scholar friends writes in > > Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican > > Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry > > conference, at which she was one of the few > > non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard > > nothing to betray that she had learned the > > language as a teenager, not even the slight > > hesitations that for most of us accompany the > > working-around of a concept that we lack the word > > for in the new language. She's one of the > > translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent > > me her cv so that I could extract a bio note. > > Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in > > Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited > > the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for > > her a matter of the quality of the product but > > her consciousness of in her case a small degree > > of distance. I've been told similar things by > > other friends who appear to be bilingual, and > > function as such, but don't claim to be so. > > > > You and Pierre are not unique as translators into > > a second language, in your case from your primary > > language, in Pierre's from languages learned very > > young and also more recently acquired languages > > which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of > > Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very > > very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to > > translate into the acquired language fall short > > of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's > > self-translations (I take it on the testimony of > > Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very > > great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of > > himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to > > have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but > > you wouldn't guess that from the translations. > > > > I do understand that this is a sensitive issue > > for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about it. > > > > As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a > > polyglot environment that began at the door of > > the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. > > > > A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who > > was innocent of English until his family arrived > > in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken > > English was often odd--over-studied, overly > > hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his > > late acquisition, but I heard him speak French > > over the course of several months spent in Paris > > at the same time. Many people put forward > > different aspects of their personalities in their > > different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly > > the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of his > > English. > > > > Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. > > > > >I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of > > >them were raised in environments where two > > >languages were spoken, whether at home or in the > > >streets. I've noticed young children in > > >bilingual environments who speak one language to > > >their mothers and another to their fathers. I've > > >asked bilingual adults about their memories of > > >early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized > > >their bilingualism at that age. They've all told > > >me the same thing--they simply spoke the > > >appropriate language, French, say, to daddy, > > >english to mommy, without really conceptualizing > > >them as different languages, much as one learns > > >early to speak the same language differently to > > >one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this > > >all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way. > > > > > >I also have a great many friends who approach > > >bilinguality but come from monolingual > > >backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They > > >have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply > > >don't have. Many of them are professional > > >translators. None of them have claimed to me to > > >be fully bilingual--the second language remains > > >a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. > > > > > >Think of it this way. I actively remember the > > >early acquisition of only a couple of > > >non-learned words in English. Those words are > > >forever associated with a place and a time. In > > >French and Spanish there are a great many such > > >words. I may not think about their origins for > > >me very often, but I do when I find myself using > > >them with the person from whom I learned them. > > >Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of > > >the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. > > > > > >Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My > > >Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my > > >French is a bit better than "practical" and my > > >Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both > > >the latter). At one point, when I was living in > > >France, I hoped that I might become something > > >closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of > > >that possibility when I spoke to children or > > >overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was > > >reminded that I would never be anything like an > > >unconscious speaker of the babytalk or > > >adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I > > >would also never have the associational > > >vocabulary that indicates the parents' or > > >grandparents' generation, nor the emotional > > >response to same. With an effort I could learn > > >them as a stranger (and as a translator I have > > >had to learn some of this), but it would never > > >become familiar, unconscious usage. > > > > > >On one occasion I was walking through the East > > >Village with two visiting French friends. They > > >had been a couple for a long time. One of them > > >suddenly began to speak a language I'd never > > >heard before. The other answered. The saw my > > >surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the > > >French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat pass=E9, I'm told. > > > > > >None of this means that one can't learn a > > >profound degree of competence in a new language. > > >It does suggest that what one learns isn't a > > >native's competence. It's a difference, but in > > >no way a disqualification. Looked at closely > > >enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which > > >contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. > > > > Mark > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:47:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: How China Got Religion - essay by Slovaj Zizek In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This article calls the Buddha a deity. He never was nor did he claim to be a deity. He was always just a highly evolved human being. That his development was due to his own efforts rather than some divine intervention is important to remember, too. Still, the main point of this article that the Chinese government is trying to control rebirth may seem funny at first. But their real point is to further control the minds and lives of Tibetans. There is currently a controversy over where the Panchen Lama is and who he is. TheChinese claim to have one but the Dalai Lama and most exiles do not recognize this appointment by the government. The Panchen Lama is or was considered the most important figure in the Tibetan hierarchy after the Dalai Lama. This new edict by the Chinese may sound ridiculous but it has a serious purpose: to gain some measure of control over the future appointments of the Dalai Lama and other revered high lamas in the Tibetan religion once the current generation has passed on. Regards, Tom Savage David Chirot wrote: as always some provocative ideas from Mr Zizek-- the Chinese government feeling that Buddhism is good because it helps promote harmony is an echo of studies on how Buddhists are found by American corporations and businesses to be ideal kinds of workers for a similar reason-- "it's the economy stupid" is the "hidden tiger"-- that and control--(whose idea of what harmony meansand sounds like--) and "empty" 'cultural' forms faced by ones taken to be real-- which paradoxically seems "hard to believe"-- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/opinion/11zizek.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin --- --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:22:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Stelarc - Performance Artist In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this might be of interest to some. I saw Stelarc in Milwaukee years ago, and then later in Prague. Both times, found his work to be very interesting. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=487039&in_page_id=1965 Alexander Jorgensen -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:14:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Felt Press Subject: Tonight: Elaine Equi and Aram Saroyan at Poets House, NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Poetics of the Condensery: Elaine Equi & Aram Saroyan on Minimalist Poetry Thursday, October 11, 7:00pm Poets House, 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, in SoHo $7, Free to Poets House Members Elaine Equi and Aram Saroyan reflect on their minimalist propensities and the work of influential practitioners of this spare aesthetic, including e.e. cummings, Ian Hamilton Finlay, Lorine Niedecker, Gertrude Stein, Louis Zukofsky and Joe Brainard. Elaine Equi is the author of more than ten poetry collections, including Ripple Effect and The Cloud of Knowable Things. Aram Saroyan is the author of the recently published Complete Minimal Poems and Day and Night: Bolinas Poems ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:18:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071011/ap_en_ot/nobel_literature;_ylt=Alwwe8BpVyhX86.r6iGerubK.nQA --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:03:35 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071011095619.059dd9a0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit But it's you who takes Creeley to represent a school of poetry, no? And almost all of us on this list seem to agree with you in this! Mark Weiss wrote: Murat: Much here to elucidate and argue over. I'll confine myself to a very few things: 1. I personally don't care if Simic (or anyone else, for that matter) likes Creeley's work. What concerned me in the review was the terms of the criticism, which set Creeley up to represent and condemn an entire school of American poetry (and British, too, if Simic's eye strayed that far). 2. "For almost a hundred years people did not like Dickinson's poetry." This mystifies me. Sure, there were some hostile critics, but much of the initial reception of the poems when they first came out in the 1890s, from critics and from the reading public (there used to be a reading public), was enthusiastic. The anthologies that I grew up with, rmy mother's course books in High School and college, first published in the 20s and 30s, devoted as much space to Dickinson as to Whitman, each of whom received more space than anyone else. 3. "The idea of tradition does not exist in American poetry." I don't think this is true. But perhaps you mean tradition in a special sense? Mark At 12:50 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >Mark, > >I was basically responding to Diane's comment, if I understood her >correctly, that Simic did not, could not understand the subtleties in C's >poetry because he was a foreigner. I think that argument is basically >nonsensical. I love C's poetry. But it is possible to understand C's poetry >fully and still not like it. For almost a hundred years people did not like >Dickinson's poetry. Most of these people were native speaking New >Englanders. > >But, I was referring to something beyond that, something related to the >nature of American English as a poetic language and to the nature of >American culture: > >a) In our day, American English functions as an imperial language, as a >lingua franca, even for its "native" speaker. One may call it a >"step-mother" tongue. The relation of the poet to such a language is >different from a poet using a "mother" tongue. It involves a subtle >linguistic alienation which the poet needs to confront and, to my mind, >exploit. > >b) Since the advent of photography in the 19th century, later tabloid >newspapers, movies, etc., the main medium of public communication, of myth >building in The United States has progressively been visual, not words. As a >result, verbal language in a subtle way is shunted aside. A very significant >schism has occurred between public (imperial) language and mother tongue. >The American poetry is written in a step-mother tongue, the "mother tongue" >trying to carve entries into this monolith. As a result, unlike in English >or French poetry for instance, the idea of tradition does not exist in >American poetry. (But this is another argument.) > >Ciao, > >Murat > > >On 10/10/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > Murat: You seem to have missed my response to > > Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a > > different subject heading. It's a bit more > > nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to > > what I at any rate was talking about. Note that > > I'm far more interested in the question of > > language acquisition, and how the acquirer > > experiences it, than whether when or how one > > learns it has any influence on how one writes, > > much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. > > > > That said, none of us use any language fully. We > > come to the table with different abilities and > > different needs. Presumably one writes > > differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not > > disparagement. > > > > One of my translator/scholar friends writes in > > Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican > > Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry > > conference, at which she was one of the few > > non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard > > nothing to betray that she had learned the > > language as a teenager, not even the slight > > hesitations that for most of us accompany the > > working-around of a concept that we lack the word > > for in the new language. She's one of the > > translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent > > me her cv so that I could extract a bio note. > > Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in > > Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited > > the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for > > her a matter of the quality of the product but > > her consciousness of in her case a small degree > > of distance. I've been told similar things by > > other friends who appear to be bilingual, and > > function as such, but don't claim to be so. > > > > You and Pierre are not unique as translators into > > a second language, in your case from your primary > > language, in Pierre's from languages learned very > > young and also more recently acquired languages > > which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of > > Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very > > very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to > > translate into the acquired language fall short > > of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's > > self-translations (I take it on the testimony of > > Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very > > great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of > > himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to > > have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but > > you wouldn't guess that from the translations. > > > > I do understand that this is a sensitive issue > > for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about it. > > > > As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a > > polyglot environment that began at the door of > > the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. > > > > A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who > > was innocent of English until his family arrived > > in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken > > English was often odd--over-studied, overly > > hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his > > late acquisition, but I heard him speak French > > over the course of several months spent in Paris > > at the same time. Many people put forward > > different aspects of their personalities in their > > different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly > > the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of his > > English. > > > > Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. > > > > >I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of > > >them were raised in environments where two > > >languages were spoken, whether at home or in the > > >streets. I've noticed young children in > > >bilingual environments who speak one language to > > >their mothers and another to their fathers. I've > > >asked bilingual adults about their memories of > > >early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized > > >their bilingualism at that age. They've all told > > >me the same thing--they simply spoke the > > >appropriate language, French, say, to daddy, > > >english to mommy, without really conceptualizing > > >them as different languages, much as one learns > > >early to speak the same language differently to > > >one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this > > >all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way. > > > > > >I also have a great many friends who approach > > >bilinguality but come from monolingual > > >backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They > > >have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply > > >don't have. Many of them are professional > > >translators. None of them have claimed to me to > > >be fully bilingual--the second language remains > > >a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. > > > > > >Think of it this way. I actively remember the > > >early acquisition of only a couple of > > >non-learned words in English. Those words are > > >forever associated with a place and a time. In > > >French and Spanish there are a great many such > > >words. I may not think about their origins for > > >me very often, but I do when I find myself using > > >them with the person from whom I learned them. > > >Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of > > >the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. > > > > > >Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My > > >Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my > > >French is a bit better than "practical" and my > > >Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both > > >the latter). At one point, when I was living in > > >France, I hoped that I might become something > > >closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of > > >that possibility when I spoke to children or > > >overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was > > >reminded that I would never be anything like an > > >unconscious speaker of the babytalk or > > >adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I > > >would also never have the associational > > >vocabulary that indicates the parents' or > > >grandparents' generation, nor the emotional > > >response to same. With an effort I could learn > > >them as a stranger (and as a translator I have > > >had to learn some of this), but it would never > > >become familiar, unconscious usage. > > > > > >On one occasion I was walking through the East > > >Village with two visiting French friends. They > > >had been a couple for a long time. One of them > > >suddenly began to speak a language I'd never > > >heard before. The other answered. The saw my > > >surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the > > >French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat passé, I'm told. > > > > > >None of this means that one can't learn a > > >profound degree of competence in a new language. > > >It does suggest that what one learns isn't a > > >native's competence. It's a difference, but in > > >no way a disqualification. Looked at closely > > >enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which > > >contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. > > > > Mark > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:38:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: Northern Arizona University MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Northern Arizona University: Visiting Writer/Instructor of English in Creative Writing for Spring 2008 NAU invites applications for a one-semester, nonrenewable instructorship for a visiting writer in creative nonfiction & poetry for spring 2008. We seek an individual with a distinguished record of publications in both genres. Responsibilities include teaching one graduate-level workshop in creative nonfiction, one graduate-level workshop in poetry, presenting a public reading, presenting a public talk on creative writing, mentoring graduate creative writing students, & serving as a reader on theses. This instructorship for a visiting writer is a limited appointment for spring semester 2008 only. Non-benefit eligible. Minimum Qualifications: Minimum qualifications include an MFA or PhD in Creative Writing (or English with an Emphasis in Creative Writing), publications in creative nonfiction & poetry, & successful experience teaching creative writing at the college or university level. Preference will be given to candidates who have successfully taught creative nonfiction & poetry writing workshops at the college or university level, have a distinguished record of publications in creative nonfiction & poetry, & experience working with a diverse community of learners. Salary: $20,000. This position will be open until filled or closed. Review of applications will begin on October 24. Send letter of application, c.v., transcripts, three letters of recommendation, evidence of effective teaching, & copies of books/publications to: Dr. Jane Armstrong Woodman Chair of Instructor/Visiting Writer Search Committee Department of English Northern Arizona University Box 6032 Flagstaff, AZ 86011-6032 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:44:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071011095619.059dd9a0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Mark, I have no doubt that Simic has an aesthetic/political view behind his comments on C. My point is that that criticism has little to do with his knowing the subtleties of English as a foreigner. My phrase a hundred years was careless. But in her life time she had difficulty in being taken seriously by the day's establishment. Even her mentor (his name escapes me now), who so some elusive quality in her poetry= , did not do anything to publish it. By no tradition I do mean no tradition, but in what way, that takes time to explain. My essay Questions of Accent is about that. Ciao, Murat On 10/11/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Murat: Much here to elucidate and argue over. > I'll confine myself to a very few things: > > 1. I personally don't care if Simic (or anyone > else, for that matter) likes Creeley's work. What > concerned me in the review was the terms of the > criticism, which set Creeley up to represent and > condemn an entire school of American poetry (and > British, too, if Simic's eye strayed that far). > > 2. "For almost a hundred years people did not > like Dickinson's poetry." This mystifies me. > Sure, there were some hostile critics, but much > of the initial reception of the poems when they > first came out in the 1890s, from critics and > from the reading public (there used to be a > reading public), was enthusiastic. The > anthologies that I grew up with, rmy mother's > course books in High School and college, first > published in the 20s and 30s, devoted as much > space to Dickinson as to Whitman, each of whom > received more space than anyone else. > > 3. "The idea of tradition does not exist in > American poetry." I don't think this is true. But > perhaps you mean tradition in a special sense? > > Mark > > > At 12:50 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: > >Mark, > > > >I was basically responding to Diane's comment, if I understood her > >correctly, that Simic did not, could not understand the subtleties in C'= s > >poetry because he was a foreigner. I think that argument is basically > >nonsensical. I love C's poetry. But it is possible to understand C's > poetry > >fully and still not like it. For almost a hundred years people did not > like > >Dickinson's poetry. Most of these people were native speaking New > >Englanders. > > > >But, I was referring to something beyond that, something related to the > >nature of American English as a poetic language and to the nature of > >American culture: > > > >a) In our day, American English functions as an imperial language, as a > >lingua franca, even for its "native" speaker. One may call it a > >"step-mother" tongue. The relation of the poet to such a language is > >different from a poet using a "mother" tongue. It involves a subtle > >linguistic alienation which the poet needs to confront and, to my mind, > >exploit. > > > >b) Since the advent of photography in the 19th century, later tabloid > >newspapers, movies, etc., the main medium of public communication, of > myth > >building in The United States has progressively been visual, not words. > As a > >result, verbal language in a subtle way is shunted aside. A very > significant > >schism has occurred between public (imperial) language and mother tongue= . > >The American poetry is written in a step-mother tongue, the "mother > tongue" > >trying to carve entries into this monolith. As a result, unlike in > English > >or French poetry for instance, the idea of tradition does not exist in > >American poetry. (But this is another argument.) > > > >Ciao, > > > >Murat > > > > > >On 10/10/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > > > Murat: You seem to have missed my response to > > > Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a > > > different subject heading. It's a bit more > > > nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to > > > what I at any rate was talking about. Note that > > > I'm far more interested in the question of > > > language acquisition, and how the acquirer > > > experiences it, than whether when or how one > > > learns it has any influence on how one writes, > > > much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. > > > > > > That said, none of us use any language fully. We > > > come to the table with different abilities and > > > different needs. Presumably one writes > > > differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not > > > disparagement. > > > > > > One of my translator/scholar friends writes in > > > Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican > > > Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry > > > conference, at which she was one of the few > > > non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard > > > nothing to betray that she had learned the > > > language as a teenager, not even the slight > > > hesitations that for most of us accompany the > > > working-around of a concept that we lack the word > > > for in the new language. She's one of the > > > translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent > > > me her cv so that I could extract a bio note. > > > Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in > > > Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited > > > the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for > > > her a matter of the quality of the product but > > > her consciousness of in her case a small degree > > > of distance. I've been told similar things by > > > other friends who appear to be bilingual, and > > > function as such, but don't claim to be so. > > > > > > You and Pierre are not unique as translators into > > > a second language, in your case from your primary > > > language, in Pierre's from languages learned very > > > young and also more recently acquired languages > > > which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of > > > Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very > > > very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to > > > translate into the acquired language fall short > > > of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's > > > self-translations (I take it on the testimony of > > > Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very > > > great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of > > > himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to > > > have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but > > > you wouldn't guess that from the translations. > > > > > > I do understand that this is a sensitive issue > > > for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about > it. > > > > > > As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a > > > polyglot environment that began at the door of > > > the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. > > > > > > A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who > > > was innocent of English until his family arrived > > > in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken > > > English was often odd--over-studied, overly > > > hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his > > > late acquisition, but I heard him speak French > > > over the course of several months spent in Paris > > > at the same time. Many people put forward > > > different aspects of their personalities in their > > > different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly > > > the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of his > > > English. > > > > > > Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. > > > > > > >I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of > > > >them were raised in environments where two > > > >languages were spoken, whether at home or in the > > > >streets. I've noticed young children in > > > >bilingual environments who speak one language to > > > >their mothers and another to their fathers. I've > > > >asked bilingual adults about their memories of > > > >early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized > > > >their bilingualism at that age. They've all told > > > >me the same thing--they simply spoke the > > > >appropriate language, French, say, to daddy, > > > >english to mommy, without really conceptualizing > > > >them as different languages, much as one learns > > > >early to speak the same language differently to > > > >one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this > > > >all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way= . > > > > > > > >I also have a great many friends who approach > > > >bilinguality but come from monolingual > > > >backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They > > > >have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply > > > >don't have. Many of them are professional > > > >translators. None of them have claimed to me to > > > >be fully bilingual--the second language remains > > > >a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. > > > > > > > >Think of it this way. I actively remember the > > > >early acquisition of only a couple of > > > >non-learned words in English. Those words are > > > >forever associated with a place and a time. In > > > >French and Spanish there are a great many such > > > >words. I may not think about their origins for > > > >me very often, but I do when I find myself using > > > >them with the person from whom I learned them. > > > >Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of > > > >the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. > > > > > > > >Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My > > > >Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my > > > >French is a bit better than "practical" and my > > > >Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both > > > >the latter). At one point, when I was living in > > > >France, I hoped that I might become something > > > >closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of > > > >that possibility when I spoke to children or > > > >overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was > > > >reminded that I would never be anything like an > > > >unconscious speaker of the babytalk or > > > >adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I > > > >would also never have the associational > > > >vocabulary that indicates the parents' or > > > >grandparents' generation, nor the emotional > > > >response to same. With an effort I could learn > > > >them as a stranger (and as a translator I have > > > >had to learn some of this), but it would never > > > >become familiar, unconscious usage. > > > > > > > >On one occasion I was walking through the East > > > >Village with two visiting French friends. They > > > >had been a couple for a long time. One of them > > > >suddenly began to speak a language I'd never > > > >heard before. The other answered. The saw my > > > >surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the > > > >French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat pass=E9, I'm told. > > > > > > > >None of this means that one can't learn a > > > >profound degree of competence in a new language. > > > >It does suggest that what one learns isn't a > > > >native's competence. It's a difference, but in > > > >no way a disqualification. Looked at closely > > > >enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which > > > >contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. > > > > > > Mark > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:46:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: New Journal from India: Almost Island In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A very funny Indian journal that hardly contains any work by Indian writers...... Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Dale Smith Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 9:50 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: New Journal from India: Almost Island Check out the new online journal from India: Almost Island. It features a "tape-essay" by Tosa Motokiyu, Ojiu Norinaga, and Okura Kyojin available here: http://www.almostisland.com. In it Motokiyu et al suggest that Kenneth Koch actually wrote the poem "A True Account of Talking to the Sun at Fire Island" as an homage to Frank O'Hara. This is a compelling document on the composition of an iconic New York School poem. Other work included also by Sarah Shun-lien Bynum, Mikhail N. Epstein, Kent Johnson, and others. -- Dale Smith La Revolution Opossum! http://www.skankypossum.com http://possumego.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:52:50 -0400 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Buuck Subject: Small Press Traffic 2008 Poets Theater Cabaret: Call for Proposals Comments: To: Gabrielle Civil , "Kristin Palm\" \"Scott Inguito" , Dodie Bellamy , Roxi Hamilton , Chris Chen , Chris Nealon , dan orendorff , Joseph Lease , "Bill Luoma @ work" , Meg Hamill , Lyn Hejinian , Dana Teen Lomax , Donna de la Perriere , Neil Alger , Cynthia Hopkins , CCA5 SLS , Lisa Robertson , CS Perez , Ugly Ducklings , Katie Kurtz , Rob Halpern , David Enos , Melissa Benham , Mac McGinnes , Chris Stroffolino , Haleh Hatami , Alli warren Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PLEASE FWD & SHARE WIDELY!!! For several years now, Small Press Traffic has been organizing an annual Poets' Theater Festival as our yearly fundraiser, with each year's event showcasing new innovative works, often staged for the first time here in San Francisco. The festival has each year gathered huge audiences that come out to see writers & artists on stage, in innovative performance works, pushing the boundaries of theater and poetry in staged readings, musicals, neo-benshi film screenings, performance writing pieces, and the like. This year we are excited to have three nights of new programming, including a PoetsTheater revival night and a cabaret, as well as a night of newly commissioned plays and performance works. We would like to invite you to consider contributing work for this year's cabaret - a full night of innovative performance works currently scheduled for Sunday Feb 3 at 21 Grand in Oakland, CA. We are looking for innovative performances in the avant-garde cabaret tradition. This could range from brief skits to musical acts, improvised performance to conceptual magic tricks, impromptu tableux vivants to feats of aesthetic daring. We could imagine instructional pieces a la Yoko Ono (to be performed by yourself or members of the audience), cross-genre collaborations, puppet shows, etc. The main constraints are that each piece be less than 5 minutes longe, require little-to-no technical support (beyond a microphone), and adhere to this year's theme, which is: "PERFORM YOUR SYMPTOM(S)"... If you are interested, we would ask for a proposal for a work of NO MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES in length by NOVEMBER 1ST, to poetstheater@gmail.com . If you are unable to attend but would like to send in a proposal for someone else to perform on your behalf, that'd be great too. You should know that the Poets Theater Festival is out major fundraising vehicle for this year's budget, and we will thus be unable to offer you any money to participate. However, we can offer this unique opportunity to perform or have your work staged in front of a packed house of enthusiastic audience members, in the context of an ongoing and evolving community of avant-garde writers and performers. Pleaae let us know as soon as you can if you are interested, and please don't hesitate to email with questions and the like. all best, David Buuck, Stephanie Young, and Cynthia Sailers, SPT PT 08 Committee poetstheater@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:25:56 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT i'm so glad. she's a wonder. best, g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. freelance writer, editor, teacher welford@hawaii.edu No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, David Chirot wrote: > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071011/ap_en_ot/nobel_literature;_ylt=Alwwe8BpVyhX86.r6iGerubK.nQA > --- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:31:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <147135.94039.qm@web86015.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, Barry. I think most people on the list get=20 it. Without even refreshing my memory about the article: 1. The reason most of us like comnplete or=20 collected editions is not because poet x never=20 wrote a mediocre poem, but because if poet x ever=20 wrote a poem that really intrigues us we want to=20 know as much as we can about his process. 2. Simic apparently isn't interested in process. 3. He cites favorably only poems that can stand=20 alone, as opposed to poems that work as part of a=20 series. He doesn't even seem to notice that from=20 Pieces on Creeley is writing in books. Pieces=20 itself is designed on the page to make it=20 unlikely one could miss this. Because he doesn't=20 realize, or lets us think he doesn't realize,=20 that the book is the unit he thinks he's proven=20 his point by quoting a few lines out of context.=20 Of course one could do the same with Shakespeare. 4. He seems not to understand that in Pieces and=20 thereafter Creeley is creating environments of=20 words and lines, in which the silences are as=20 important as the sounds. He really wants=20 well-wrought urns, preferrably wearing all those=20 themes so convenient for teaching right on their surfaces. 5. The kind of writing he doesn't get is usually=20 called open form. It's not about first thought=20 best thought, to quote Ginsberg--presumably a=20 whole lot of stuff wound up in Creeley's=20 notebooks that never made it into the poems, and=20 I'd be surprised if he never cleaned up around=20 the edges. But it is an attempt to evade the=20 internal censor that says "this is poetic, that=20 isn't," or "this is appropriate to say, that=20 isn't." Which means that the poem doesn't tell=20 you where it's going til you get there, which is=20 the discovery of the shape of the experience, and=20 it's just as much a surprise to the poet--poet=20 and reader have both learned something. This=20 kind of writing is dangerous to an ordered life=20 and perhaps threatening who depend on a burocratized sense of sense. 6. An aside: in mentioning the poems he likes he=20 misses The Finger, in Pieces, to my mind the best=20 of Creeley's stand-alone poems, also I think his=20 longest. One of the hreat poems in the language.=20 Selon moi. Maybe Simic was akimming. 7. When he talks about Creeley's place in the=20 world he makes a very odd claim, that Creeley was=20 as famous as Lowell, and almost as famous as=20 Ginsberg, circa 1965. This is utter nonsense.=20 Like it or not, all of us who read Creeley read=20 Lowell, while most of those who read Lowell had=20 never heard of Creeley. Ginsberg was of course a=20 celebrity, though less so than he would later=20 become, but among those concerned with poetry=20 Lowell was a close second--he was the white=20 knight of the establishment literary scene. 8. So why elevate Creeley? To knock down all who=20 work in open form. Notice Simic doesn't say it=20 doesn't ring his bell, he says that it was a mistake, a delusion. 9. Interestingly, his brief mention of Olson=20 describes him as a fisherman, a postman, a=20 semocratic aparatchik and a member of the=20 Roosevelt administration. The first two were=20 summer jobs when he was in high school and=20 college. Whatever thought Simic had in mind isn't=20 played out, but it could hardly have been laudatory. 10. With lots and lots of caveats and lots and=20 lots of variations, Ceeley represents a kind of=20 poetry in which an act or voyage of discovery=20 happens in the course of the poem, Simic a kind=20 of poetry in which an act of discovery is=20 recollected in tranquility and reshaped for the=20 public. These are radically different ways to=20 conceptualize not only the act of writing but the=20 way one lives. Creeley's way is literally=20 experimental--each poem, each moment in a life,=20 conceived as an experiment, a "what if." I could probably be more lucid about this if I had the time, but I don't. Mark=20 At 02:03 PM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >But it's you who takes Creeley to represent a=20 >school of poetry, no? And almost all of us on=20 >this list seem to agree with you in this! > >Mark Weiss =20 >wrote: Murat: Much here to elucidate and argue over. >I'll confine myself to a very few things: > >1. I personally don't care if Simic (or anyone >else, for that matter) likes Creeley's work. What >concerned me in the review was the terms of the >criticism, which set Creeley up to represent and >condemn an entire school of American poetry (and >British, too, if Simic's eye strayed that far). > >2. "For almost a hundred years people did not >like Dickinson's poetry." This mystifies me. >Sure, there were some hostile critics, but much >of the initial reception of the poems when they >first came out in the 1890s, from critics and >from the reading public (there used to be a >reading public), was enthusiastic. The >anthologies that I grew up with, rmy mother's >course books in High School and college, first >published in the 20s and 30s, devoted as much >space to Dickinson as to Whitman, each of whom >received more space than anyone else. > >3. "The idea of tradition does not exist in >American poetry." I don't think this is true. But >perhaps you mean tradition in a special sense? > >Mark > > >At 12:50 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: > >Mark, > > > >I was basically responding to Diane's comment, if I understood her > >correctly, that Simic did not, could not understand the subtleties in C's > >poetry because he was a foreigner. I think that argument is basically > >nonsensical. I love C's poetry. But it is possible to understand C's= poetry > >fully and still not like it. For almost a hundred years people did not= like > >Dickinson's poetry. Most of these people were native speaking New > >Englanders. > > > >But, I was referring to something beyond that, something related to the > >nature of American English as a poetic language and to the nature of > >American culture: > > > >a) In our day, American English functions as an imperial language, as a > >lingua franca, even for its "native" speaker. One may call it a > >"step-mother" tongue. The relation of the poet to such a language is > >different from a poet using a "mother" tongue. It involves a subtle > >linguistic alienation which the poet needs to confront and, to my mind, > >exploit. > > > >b) Since the advent of photography in the 19th century, later tabloid > >newspapers, movies, etc., the main medium of public communication, of= myth > >building in The United States has progressively been visual, not words.= As a > >result, verbal language in a subtle way is shunted aside. A very= significant > >schism has occurred between public (imperial) language and mother tongue. > >The American poetry is written in a step-mother tongue, the "mother= tongue" > >trying to carve entries into this monolith. As a result, unlike in= English > >or French poetry for instance, the idea of tradition does not exist in > >American poetry. (But this is another argument.) > > > >Ciao, > > > >Murat > > > > > >On 10/10/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > > > Murat: You seem to have missed my response to > > > Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a > > > different subject heading. It's a bit more > > > nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to > > > what I at any rate was talking about. Note that > > > I'm far more interested in the question of > > > language acquisition, and how the acquirer > > > experiences it, than whether when or how one > > > learns it has any influence on how one writes, > > > much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. > > > > > > That said, none of us use any language fully. We > > > come to the table with different abilities and > > > different needs. Presumably one writes > > > differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not > > > disparagement. > > > > > > One of my translator/scholar friends writes in > > > Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican > > > Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry > > > conference, at which she was one of the few > > > non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard > > > nothing to betray that she had learned the > > > language as a teenager, not even the slight > > > hesitations that for most of us accompany the > > > working-around of a concept that we lack the word > > > for in the new language. She's one of the > > > translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent > > > me her cv so that I could extract a bio note. > > > Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in > > > Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited > > > the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for > > > her a matter of the quality of the product but > > > her consciousness of in her case a small degree > > > of distance. I've been told similar things by > > > other friends who appear to be bilingual, and > > > function as such, but don't claim to be so. > > > > > > You and Pierre are not unique as translators into > > > a second language, in your case from your primary > > > language, in Pierre's from languages learned very > > > young and also more recently acquired languages > > > which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of > > > Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very > > > very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to > > > translate into the acquired language fall short > > > of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's > > > self-translations (I take it on the testimony of > > > Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very > > > great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of > > > himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to > > > have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but > > > you wouldn't guess that from the translations. > > > > > > I do understand that this is a sensitive issue > > > for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about= it. > > > > > > As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a > > > polyglot environment that began at the door of > > > the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. > > > > > > A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who > > > was innocent of English until his family arrived > > > in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken > > > English was often odd--over-studied, overly > > > hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his > > > late acquisition, but I heard him speak French > > > over the course of several months spent in Paris > > > at the same time. Many people put forward > > > different aspects of their personalities in their > > > different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly > > > the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of his > > > English. > > > > > > Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. > > > > > > >I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of > > > >them were raised in environments where two > > > >languages were spoken, whether at home or in the > > > >streets. I've noticed young children in > > > >bilingual environments who speak one language to > > > >their mothers and another to their fathers. I've > > > >asked bilingual adults about their memories of > > > >early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized > > > >their bilingualism at that age. They've all told > > > >me the same thing--they simply spoke the > > > >appropriate language, French, say, to daddy, > > > >english to mommy, without really conceptualizing > > > >them as different languages, much as one learns > > > >early to speak the same language differently to > > > >one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this > > > >all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way. > > > > > > > >I also have a great many friends who approach > > > >bilinguality but come from monolingual > > > >backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They > > > >have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply > > > >don't have. Many of them are professional > > > >translators. None of them have claimed to me to > > > >be fully bilingual--the second language remains > > > >a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. > > > > > > > >Think of it this way. I actively remember the > > > >early acquisition of only a couple of > > > >non-learned words in English. Those words are > > > >forever associated with a place and a time. In > > > >French and Spanish there are a great many such > > > >words. I may not think about their origins for > > > >me very often, but I do when I find myself using > > > >them with the person from whom I learned them. > > > >Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of > > > >the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. > > > > > > > >Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My > > > >Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my > > > >French is a bit better than "practical" and my > > > >Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both > > > >the latter). At one point, when I was living in > > > >France, I hoped that I might become something > > > >closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of > > > >that possibility when I spoke to children or > > > >overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was > > > >reminded that I would never be anything like an > > > >unconscious speaker of the babytalk or > > > >adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I > > > >would also never have the associational > > > >vocabulary that indicates the parents' or > > > >grandparents' generation, nor the emotional > > > >response to same. With an effort I could learn > > > >them as a stranger (and as a translator I have > > > >had to learn some of this), but it would never > > > >become familiar, unconscious usage. > > > > > > > >On one occasion I was walking through the East > > > >Village with two visiting French friends. They > > > >had been a couple for a long time. One of them > > > >suddenly began to speak a language I'd never > > > >heard before. The other answered. The saw my > > > >surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the > > > >French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat pass=E9, I'm told. > > > > > > > >None of this means that one can't learn a > > > >profound degree of competence in a new language. > > > >It does suggest that what one learns isn't a > > > >native's competence. It's a difference, but in > > > >no way a disqualification. Looked at closely > > > >enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which > > > >contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. > > > > > > Mark > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:36:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710111144j14f223dck9e14ee0e92844766@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you're interested in a public discussion about=20 this you could give a reduced version of the=20 idea. It's unlikely that most of us would have=20 time to find and read the essay. But I of course=20 understand if you don't wish to do so. And I agree that Simic's attack on Creeley almost=20 certainly has nothing to do with his ability to=20 read English. That would be to cut him too much slack. Mark At 02:44 PM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >Mark, > >I have no doubt that Simic has an aesthetic/political view behind his >comments on C. My point is that that criticism has little to do with his >knowing the subtleties of English as a foreigner. > >My phrase a hundred years was careless. But in her life time she had >difficulty in being taken seriously by the day's establishment. Even her >mentor (his name escapes me now), who so some elusive quality in her= poetry, >did not do anything to publish it. > >By no tradition I do mean no tradition, but in what way, that takes time to >explain. My essay Questions of Accent is about that. > >Ciao, > >Murat > > >On 10/11/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > Murat: Much here to elucidate and argue over. > > I'll confine myself to a very few things: > > > > 1. I personally don't care if Simic (or anyone > > else, for that matter) likes Creeley's work. What > > concerned me in the review was the terms of the > > criticism, which set Creeley up to represent and > > condemn an entire school of American poetry (and > > British, too, if Simic's eye strayed that far). > > > > 2. "For almost a hundred years people did not > > like Dickinson's poetry." This mystifies me. > > Sure, there were some hostile critics, but much > > of the initial reception of the poems when they > > first came out in the 1890s, from critics and > > from the reading public (there used to be a > > reading public), was enthusiastic. The > > anthologies that I grew up with, rmy mother's > > course books in High School and college, first > > published in the 20s and 30s, devoted as much > > space to Dickinson as to Whitman, each of whom > > received more space than anyone else. > > > > 3. "The idea of tradition does not exist in > > American poetry." I don't think this is true. But > > perhaps you mean tradition in a special sense? > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 12:50 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: > > >Mark, > > > > > >I was basically responding to Diane's comment, if I understood her > > >correctly, that Simic did not, could not understand the subtleties in= C's > > >poetry because he was a foreigner. I think that argument is basically > > >nonsensical. I love C's poetry. But it is possible to understand C's > > poetry > > >fully and still not like it. For almost a hundred years people did not > > like > > >Dickinson's poetry. Most of these people were native speaking New > > >Englanders. > > > > > >But, I was referring to something beyond that, something related to the > > >nature of American English as a poetic language and to the nature of > > >American culture: > > > > > >a) In our day, American English functions as an imperial language, as a > > >lingua franca, even for its "native" speaker. One may call it a > > >"step-mother" tongue. The relation of the poet to such a language is > > >different from a poet using a "mother" tongue. It involves a subtle > > >linguistic alienation which the poet needs to confront and, to my mind, > > >exploit. > > > > > >b) Since the advent of photography in the 19th century, later tabloid > > >newspapers, movies, etc., the main medium of public communication, of > > myth > > >building in The United States has progressively been visual, not words. > > As a > > >result, verbal language in a subtle way is shunted aside. A very > > significant > > >schism has occurred between public (imperial) language and mother= tongue. > > >The American poetry is written in a step-mother tongue, the "mother > > tongue" > > >trying to carve entries into this monolith. As a result, unlike in > > English > > >or French poetry for instance, the idea of tradition does not exist in > > >American poetry. (But this is another argument.) > > > > > >Ciao, > > > > > >Murat > > > > > > > > >On 10/10/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > > > > > Murat: You seem to have missed my response to > > > > Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a > > > > different subject heading. It's a bit more > > > > nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to > > > > what I at any rate was talking about. Note that > > > > I'm far more interested in the question of > > > > language acquisition, and how the acquirer > > > > experiences it, than whether when or how one > > > > learns it has any influence on how one writes, > > > > much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. > > > > > > > > That said, none of us use any language fully. We > > > > come to the table with different abilities and > > > > different needs. Presumably one writes > > > > differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not > > > > disparagement. > > > > > > > > One of my translator/scholar friends writes in > > > > Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican > > > > Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry > > > > conference, at which she was one of the few > > > > non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard > > > > nothing to betray that she had learned the > > > > language as a teenager, not even the slight > > > > hesitations that for most of us accompany the > > > > working-around of a concept that we lack the word > > > > for in the new language. She's one of the > > > > translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent > > > > me her cv so that I could extract a bio note. > > > > Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in > > > > Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited > > > > the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for > > > > her a matter of the quality of the product but > > > > her consciousness of in her case a small degree > > > > of distance. I've been told similar things by > > > > other friends who appear to be bilingual, and > > > > function as such, but don't claim to be so. > > > > > > > > You and Pierre are not unique as translators into > > > > a second language, in your case from your primary > > > > language, in Pierre's from languages learned very > > > > young and also more recently acquired languages > > > > which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of > > > > Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very > > > > very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to > > > > translate into the acquired language fall short > > > > of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's > > > > self-translations (I take it on the testimony of > > > > Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very > > > > great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of > > > > himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to > > > > have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but > > > > you wouldn't guess that from the translations. > > > > > > > > I do understand that this is a sensitive issue > > > > for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about > > it. > > > > > > > > As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a > > > > polyglot environment that began at the door of > > > > the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. > > > > > > > > A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who > > > > was innocent of English until his family arrived > > > > in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken > > > > English was often odd--over-studied, overly > > > > hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his > > > > late acquisition, but I heard him speak French > > > > over the course of several months spent in Paris > > > > at the same time. Many people put forward > > > > different aspects of their personalities in their > > > > different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly > > > > the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of= his > > > > English. > > > > > > > > Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. > > > > > > > > >I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of > > > > >them were raised in environments where two > > > > >languages were spoken, whether at home or in the > > > > >streets. I've noticed young children in > > > > >bilingual environments who speak one language to > > > > >their mothers and another to their fathers. I've > > > > >asked bilingual adults about their memories of > > > > >early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized > > > > >their bilingualism at that age. They've all told > > > > >me the same thing--they simply spoke the > > > > >appropriate language, French, say, to daddy, > > > > >english to mommy, without really conceptualizing > > > > >them as different languages, much as one learns > > > > >early to speak the same language differently to > > > > >one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this > > > > >all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the= way. > > > > > > > > > >I also have a great many friends who approach > > > > >bilinguality but come from monolingual > > > > >backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They > > > > >have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply > > > > >don't have. Many of them are professional > > > > >translators. None of them have claimed to me to > > > > >be fully bilingual--the second language remains > > > > >a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. > > > > > > > > > >Think of it this way. I actively remember the > > > > >early acquisition of only a couple of > > > > >non-learned words in English. Those words are > > > > >forever associated with a place and a time. In > > > > >French and Spanish there are a great many such > > > > >words. I may not think about their origins for > > > > >me very often, but I do when I find myself using > > > > >them with the person from whom I learned them. > > > > >Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of > > > > >the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. > > > > > > > > > >Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My > > > > >Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my > > > > >French is a bit better than "practical" and my > > > > >Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both > > > > >the latter). At one point, when I was living in > > > > >France, I hoped that I might become something > > > > >closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of > > > > >that possibility when I spoke to children or > > > > >overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was > > > > >reminded that I would never be anything like an > > > > >unconscious speaker of the babytalk or > > > > >adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I > > > > >would also never have the associational > > > > >vocabulary that indicates the parents' or > > > > >grandparents' generation, nor the emotional > > > > >response to same. With an effort I could learn > > > > >them as a stranger (and as a translator I have > > > > >had to learn some of this), but it would never > > > > >become familiar, unconscious usage. > > > > > > > > > >On one occasion I was walking through the East > > > > >Village with two visiting French friends. They > > > > >had been a couple for a long time. One of them > > > > >suddenly began to speak a language I'd never > > > > >heard before. The other answered. The saw my > > > > >surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the > > > > >French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat pass=E9, I'm= told. > > > > > > > > > >None of this means that one can't learn a > > > > >profound degree of competence in a new language. > > > > >It does suggest that what one learns isn't a > > > > >native's competence. It's a difference, but in > > > > >no way a disqualification. Looked at closely > > > > >enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which > > > > >contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:05:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martha King Subject: Re: Black Mountain Film & Ruth's question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I believe it is for sale on DVD ...I am in it, as is Basil King, my husband, and it's well worth a look. It=20= addresses the place as a school lower case s... Visit Fully Awake Black Mountain College at http://www.ibiblio.org/bmc/ or contact the filmmaker, Cathryn Davis Zomer.=C2=A0 --Martha King =C2=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Ruth Lepson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 4:07 pm Subject: Re: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 10.10.07-10.14.07 is it possible to buy the documentary? n 10/10/07 1:22 PM, "Michael Kelleher" wrote: > LITERARY BUFFALO 10.10.07-10.14.07 =20 Hi Folks, =20 I am back from my cross-country trek. It was amazing! You can see pictures here: =20 http://www.flickr.com/photos/8277941@N04/sets/72157602339973402/ =20 If you are waiting for an email or a call back from me, please be patient! ________________________________________________________________ =20 SPECIAL EVENT =20 Just Buffalo & Hallwalls present a screening of: _ Fully Awake: Black Mountain College_ Presented in person by filmmaker Cathryn Davis. _ Friday, October 12, 8 p.m._ Hallwalls Cinema at Babeville (Formerly The Church) 341 Delaware Ave., at Tupper _ $7 general/$5 students & seniors/$4 members of HW & JB __ =20 A new documentary about the revolutionary North Carolina college of the mid-20th century, & the poets & other artists who taught, studied, & worked there, many of whom effected our lives here in Buffalo, especially, Robert Creeley and Charles Olson. ________________________________________________________________ =20 BABEL =20 Tickets for individual Babel events are on sale now. They cost $25 per eve= nt. =20 Season Subscription: $75 (SAVE $25). =20 TICKETS ARE GOING FAST!!! We have already sold 65% by subscription. =20 November 8 Orhan Pamuk, Turkey, Winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize =20 Book groups (minimum three people) can subscribe at a special rate of $60 p= er person for the whole season. SUBSCRIBE TODAY or PURCHASE individual tickets= at http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel or by calling 832-5400. Book group subscriptions by phone only. ________________________________________________________________ =20 EVENTS =20 Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. =20 10.10.07 =20 Just Buffalo Open Reading Featured: John Marvin Wednesday, October 10, 7 p.m. Carnegie Art Center, 240 Goundry St., North Tonawanda 10 slots for open readers =20 10.11.07 =20 Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State College Peggy Towers and Noami Gutman Poetry Reading Thursday, October 11, 4 p.m. Rooftop Garden, Butler Library, Buffalo State College =20 & =20 The Write Thing at Medaille College Anouar Majid Fiction Reading Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. The Library at Huber Hall, Medaille College, 18 Agassiz Cir. =20 & =20 Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series Noah Eli Gordon/Joshua Marie Wilkerson Poetry Reading Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. =20 & =20 Talking Leaves...Books Jennifer Campbell Reading/Signing for Many Colors of Sound (poetry) Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. =20 10.12.07 =20 Just Buffalo/Hallwalls Fully Awake: The Black Mountain College Experience Film Screening and Q & A w/ Director Cathryn Davis Friday, October 12, 8 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema at the Church, 341 Delaware (@ Tupper) =20 10.13.07 =20 Burchfield-Penney Arts Center Buffluxus performs The Works Of Emmett Williams Saturday, October 13, 2 p.m. plus Spoken Music @ 5pm Burchfield-Penney Arts Center, 1300 Elmwood Avenue =20 10.14.07 =20 Just Buffalo Interdisciplinary Event Back In The Day: Poetry & Music from the 40's to the 70's Featuring poets Sandra Gilliam and Shirley Sarmiento and musical performanc= es by George Scott Big Band and vocalist/emcee Joyce Carolyn Butler. Sunday, October 14, 2 p.m Unitarian Universalist Church, 695 Elmwood (and Ferry) =20 & =20 Talking Leaves...Books Jeffrey Miller Reading/Signing for Rockin' the Rockpile Sunday, October 14, 2 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, Elmwood Store =20 & =20 Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo Perri Klass and Sheila Solomon Klass Reading and Signing for: Every Mother is a Daughter: The Neverending Quest=20= for Success, Inner Peace, and a Really Clean Kitchen Sunday, October, 14, 2:00 pm $12, $5 students Jewish Communtiy Center of Greater Buffalo 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 Admission includes "High Tea" reception and a raffle for manicures/pedicure= s =20 & =20 Spoken Word Sundays Lisa Forrest With Gregory Paul, & Stan Worthy Sunday, September 16, 8 p.m. Allen Street Hardware, 245 Allen St., Buffalo Sign up at 7:45 for Open readers (5 minutes each) =20 ________________________________________________________________ =20 JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP =20 Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer critique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Market Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3= rd Wednesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. =20 ________________________________________________________________ =20 =20 WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every month at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem Road, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. =20 ________________________________________________________________ =20 =20 JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE!!! =20 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal donation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently ad= ded the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log i= n (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), and voil=C3=A1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: =20 http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml =20 ________________________________________________________________ =20 UNSUBSCRIBE =20 If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk@justbuffalo.org ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http= ://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:39:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Black Mountain Film & Ruth's question In-Reply-To: <8C9DA6A07EC72A8-698-8A02@WEBMAIL-DC15.sysops.aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable many thanks, Martha. On 10/11/07 6:05 PM, "Martha King" wrote: > I believe it is for sale on DVD > ...I am in it, as is Basil King, my husband, and it's well worth a look. = It > addresses the place as a school lower case s... >=20 >=20 > Visit Fully Awake Black Mountain College at http://www.ibiblio.org/bmc/ >=20 > or contact the filmmaker, Cathryn Davis Zomer.=A0 --Martha King >=20 >=20 >=20 > =A0 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ruth Lepson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 4:07 pm > Subject: Re: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 10.10.07-10.14.07 >=20 >=20 >=20 > is it possible to buy the documentary? >=20 > n 10/10/07 1:22 PM, "Michael Kelleher" wrote: >> LITERARY BUFFALO > 10.10.07-10.14.07 > =20 > Hi Folks, > =20 > I am back from my cross-country trek. It was amazing! You can see pictur= es > here: > =20 > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8277941@N04/sets/72157602339973402/ > =20 > If you are waiting for an email or a call back from me, please be patien= t! > ________________________________________________________________ > =20 > SPECIAL EVENT > =20 > Just Buffalo & Hallwalls present a screening of: _ > Fully Awake: Black Mountain College_ > Presented in person by filmmaker Cathryn Davis. _ > Friday, October 12, 8 p.m._ > Hallwalls Cinema at Babeville (Formerly The Church) 341 Delaware Ave., a= t > Tupper _ > $7 general/$5 students & seniors/$4 members of HW & JB __ > =20 > A new documentary about the revolutionary North Carolina college of the > mid-20th century, & the poets & other artists who taught, studied, & wor= ked > there, many of whom effected our lives here in Buffalo, especially, Robe= rt > Creeley and Charles Olson. > ________________________________________________________________ > =20 > BABEL > =20 > Tickets for individual Babel events are on sale now. They cost $25 per > event. > =20 > Season Subscription: $75 (SAVE $25). > =20 > TICKETS ARE GOING FAST!!! We have already sold 65% by subscription. > =20 > November 8 Orhan Pamuk, Turkey, Winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize > December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden > March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize > April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize > =20 > Book groups (minimum three people) can subscribe at a special rate of $6= 0 per > person for the whole season. SUBSCRIBE TODAY or PURCHASE individual tick= ets > at > http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel or by calling 832-5400. Book group > subscriptions by phone only. > ________________________________________________________________ > =20 > EVENTS > =20 > Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. > =20 > 10.10.07 > =20 > Just Buffalo Open Reading > Featured: John Marvin > Wednesday, October 10, 7 p.m. > Carnegie Art Center, 240 Goundry St., North Tonawanda > 10 slots for open readers > =20 > 10.11.07 > =20 > Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State College > Peggy Towers and Noami Gutman > Poetry Reading > Thursday, October 11, 4 p.m. > Rooftop Garden, Butler Library, Buffalo State College > =20 > & > =20 > The Write Thing at Medaille College > Anouar Majid > Fiction Reading > Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. > The Library at Huber Hall, Medaille College, 18 Agassiz Cir. > =20 > & > =20 > Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series > Noah Eli Gordon/Joshua Marie Wilkerson > Poetry Reading > Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. > Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. > =20 > & > =20 > Talking Leaves...Books > Jennifer Campbell > Reading/Signing for Many Colors of Sound (poetry) > Thursday, October 11, 7 p.m. > Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. > =20 > 10.12.07 > =20 > Just Buffalo/Hallwalls > Fully Awake: The Black Mountain College Experience > Film Screening and Q & A w/ Director Cathryn Davis > Friday, October 12, 8 p.m. > Hallwalls Cinema at the Church, 341 Delaware (@ Tupper) > =20 > 10.13.07 > =20 > Burchfield-Penney Arts Center > Buffluxus performs The Works Of Emmett Williams > Saturday, October 13, 2 p.m. plus Spoken Music @ 5pm > Burchfield-Penney Arts Center, 1300 Elmwood Avenue > =20 > 10.14.07 > =20 > Just Buffalo Interdisciplinary Event > Back In The Day: Poetry & Music from the 40's to the 70's > Featuring poets Sandra Gilliam and Shirley Sarmiento and musical perform= ances > by George Scott Big Band and vocalist/emcee Joyce Carolyn Butler. > Sunday, October 14, 2 p.m > Unitarian Universalist Church, 695 Elmwood (and Ferry) > =20 > & > =20 > Talking Leaves...Books > Jeffrey Miller > Reading/Signing for Rockin' the Rockpile > Sunday, October 14, 2 p.m. > Talking Leaves...Books, Elmwood Store > =20 > & > =20 > Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo > Perri Klass and Sheila Solomon Klass > Reading and Signing for: Every Mother is a Daughter: The Neverending Que= st > for > Success, Inner Peace, and a Really Clean Kitchen > Sunday, October, 14, 2:00 pm > $12, $5 students > Jewish Communtiy Center of Greater Buffalo > 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 > Admission includes "High Tea" reception and a raffle for manicures/pedic= ures > =20 > & > =20 > Spoken Word Sundays > Lisa Forrest With Gregory Paul, & Stan Worthy > Sunday, September 16, 8 p.m. > Allen Street Hardware, 245 Allen St., Buffalo > Sign up at 7:45 for Open readers (5 minutes each) > =20 > ________________________________________________________________ > =20 > JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP > =20 > Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer > critique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic > Market Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st an= d 3rd > Wednesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. > =20 > ________________________________________________________________ > =20 > =20 > WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of ever= y > month at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harl= em > Road, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. > =20 > ________________________________________________________________ > =20 > =20 > JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE!!! > =20 > If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive persona= l > donation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently > added > the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. > Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, lo= g in > (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd > voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or to = join > now, go to our website: > =20 > http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml > =20 > ________________________________________________________________ > =20 > UNSUBSCRIBE > =20 > If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you wil= l be > immediately removed. > _______________________________ > Michael Kelleher > Artistic Director > Just Buffalo Literary Center > Market Arcade > 617 Main St., Ste. 202A > Buffalo, NY 14203 > 716.832.5400 > 716.270.0184 (fax) > www.justbuffalo.org > mjk@justbuffalo.org >=20 >=20 > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:42:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071011165525.05a10d70@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable have enough time to send it to NYRB? On 10/11/07 5:31 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > OK, Barry. I think most people on the list get > it. Without even refreshing my memory about the article: >=20 > 1. The reason most of us like comnplete or > collected editions is not because poet x never > wrote a mediocre poem, but because if poet x ever > wrote a poem that really intrigues us we want to > know as much as we can about his process. >=20 > 2. Simic apparently isn't interested in process. >=20 > 3. He cites favorably only poems that can stand > alone, as opposed to poems that work as part of a > series. He doesn't even seem to notice that from > Pieces on Creeley is writing in books. Pieces > itself is designed on the page to make it > unlikely one could miss this. Because he doesn't > realize, or lets us think he doesn't realize, > that the book is the unit he thinks he's proven > his point by quoting a few lines out of context. > Of course one could do the same with Shakespeare. >=20 > 4. He seems not to understand that in Pieces and > thereafter Creeley is creating environments of > words and lines, in which the silences are as > important as the sounds. He really wants > well-wrought urns, preferrably wearing all those > themes so convenient for teaching right on their surfaces. >=20 > 5. The kind of writing he doesn't get is usually > called open form. It's not about first thought > best thought, to quote Ginsberg--presumably a > whole lot of stuff wound up in Creeley's > notebooks that never made it into the poems, and > I'd be surprised if he never cleaned up around > the edges. But it is an attempt to evade the > internal censor that says "this is poetic, that > isn't," or "this is appropriate to say, that > isn't." Which means that the poem doesn't tell > you where it's going til you get there, which is > the discovery of the shape of the experience, and > it's just as much a surprise to the poet--poet > and reader have both learned something. This > kind of writing is dangerous to an ordered life > and perhaps threatening who depend on a burocratized sense of sense. >=20 > 6. An aside: in mentioning the poems he likes he > misses The Finger, in Pieces, to my mind the best > of Creeley's stand-alone poems, also I think his > longest. One of the hreat poems in the language. > Selon moi. Maybe Simic was akimming. >=20 > 7. When he talks about Creeley's place in the > world he makes a very odd claim, that Creeley was > as famous as Lowell, and almost as famous as > Ginsberg, circa 1965. This is utter nonsense. > Like it or not, all of us who read Creeley read > Lowell, while most of those who read Lowell had > never heard of Creeley. Ginsberg was of course a > celebrity, though less so than he would later > become, but among those concerned with poetry > Lowell was a close second--he was the white > knight of the establishment literary scene. >=20 > 8. So why elevate Creeley? To knock down all who > work in open form. Notice Simic doesn't say it > doesn't ring his bell, he says that it was a mistake, a delusion. >=20 > 9. Interestingly, his brief mention of Olson > describes him as a fisherman, a postman, a > semocratic aparatchik and a member of the > Roosevelt administration. The first two were > summer jobs when he was in high school and > college. Whatever thought Simic had in mind isn't > played out, but it could hardly have been laudatory. >=20 > 10. With lots and lots of caveats and lots and > lots of variations, Ceeley represents a kind of > poetry in which an act or voyage of discovery > happens in the course of the poem, Simic a kind > of poetry in which an act of discovery is > recollected in tranquility and reshaped for the > public. These are radically different ways to > conceptualize not only the act of writing but the > way one lives. Creeley's way is literally > experimental--each poem, each moment in a life, > conceived as an experiment, a "what if." >=20 > I could probably be more lucid about this if I had the time, but I don't. >=20 > Mark=20 >=20 >=20 > At 02:03 PM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >> But it's you who takes Creeley to represent a >> school of poetry, no? And almost all of us on >> this list seem to agree with you in this! >>=20 >> Mark Weiss >> wrote: Murat: Much here to elucidate and argue over. >> I'll confine myself to a very few things: >>=20 >> 1. I personally don't care if Simic (or anyone >> else, for that matter) likes Creeley's work. What >> concerned me in the review was the terms of the >> criticism, which set Creeley up to represent and >> condemn an entire school of American poetry (and >> British, too, if Simic's eye strayed that far). >>=20 >> 2. "For almost a hundred years people did not >> like Dickinson's poetry." This mystifies me. >> Sure, there were some hostile critics, but much >> of the initial reception of the poems when they >> first came out in the 1890s, from critics and >> from the reading public (there used to be a >> reading public), was enthusiastic. The >> anthologies that I grew up with, rmy mother's >> course books in High School and college, first >> published in the 20s and 30s, devoted as much >> space to Dickinson as to Whitman, each of whom >> received more space than anyone else. >>=20 >> 3. "The idea of tradition does not exist in >> American poetry." I don't think this is true. But >> perhaps you mean tradition in a special sense? >>=20 >> Mark >>=20 >>=20 >> At 12:50 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >>> Mark, >>>=20 >>> I was basically responding to Diane's comment, if I understood her >>> correctly, that Simic did not, could not understand the subtleties in C= 's >>> poetry because he was a foreigner. I think that argument is basically >>> nonsensical. I love C's poetry. But it is possible to understand C's po= etry >>> fully and still not like it. For almost a hundred years people did not = like >>> Dickinson's poetry. Most of these people were native speaking New >>> Englanders. >>>=20 >>> But, I was referring to something beyond that, something related to the >>> nature of American English as a poetic language and to the nature of >>> American culture: >>>=20 >>> a) In our day, American English functions as an imperial language, as a >>> lingua franca, even for its "native" speaker. One may call it a >>> "step-mother" tongue. The relation of the poet to such a language is >>> different from a poet using a "mother" tongue. It involves a subtle >>> linguistic alienation which the poet needs to confront and, to my mind, >>> exploit. >>>=20 >>> b) Since the advent of photography in the 19th century, later tabloid >>> newspapers, movies, etc., the main medium of public communication, of m= yth >>> building in The United States has progressively been visual, not words.= As a >>> result, verbal language in a subtle way is shunted aside. A very signif= icant >>> schism has occurred between public (imperial) language and mother tongu= e. >>> The American poetry is written in a step-mother tongue, the "mother ton= gue" >>> trying to carve entries into this monolith. As a result, unlike in Engl= ish >>> or French poetry for instance, the idea of tradition does not exist in >>> American poetry. (But this is another argument.) >>>=20 >>> Ciao, >>>=20 >>> Murat >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 10/10/07, Mark Weiss wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Murat: You seem to have missed my response to >>>> Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a >>>> different subject heading. It's a bit more >>>> nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to >>>> what I at any rate was talking about. Note that >>>> I'm far more interested in the question of >>>> language acquisition, and how the acquirer >>>> experiences it, than whether when or how one >>>> learns it has any influence on how one writes, >>>> much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. >>>>=20 >>>> That said, none of us use any language fully. We >>>> come to the table with different abilities and >>>> different needs. Presumably one writes >>>> differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not >>>> disparagement. >>>>=20 >>>> One of my translator/scholar friends writes in >>>> Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican >>>> Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry >>>> conference, at which she was one of the few >>>> non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard >>>> nothing to betray that she had learned the >>>> language as a teenager, not even the slight >>>> hesitations that for most of us accompany the >>>> working-around of a concept that we lack the word >>>> for in the new language. She's one of the >>>> translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent >>>> me her cv so that I could extract a bio note. >>>> Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in >>>> Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited >>>> the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for >>>> her a matter of the quality of the product but >>>> her consciousness of in her case a small degree >>>> of distance. I've been told similar things by >>>> other friends who appear to be bilingual, and >>>> function as such, but don't claim to be so. >>>>=20 >>>> You and Pierre are not unique as translators into >>>> a second language, in your case from your primary >>>> language, in Pierre's from languages learned very >>>> young and also more recently acquired languages >>>> which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of >>>> Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very >>>> very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to >>>> translate into the acquired language fall short >>>> of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's >>>> self-translations (I take it on the testimony of >>>> Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very >>>> great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of >>>> himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to >>>> have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but >>>> you wouldn't guess that from the translations. >>>>=20 >>>> I do understand that this is a sensitive issue >>>> for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about i= t. >>>>=20 >>>> As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a >>>> polyglot environment that began at the door of >>>> the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. >>>>=20 >>>> A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who >>>> was innocent of English until his family arrived >>>> in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken >>>> English was often odd--over-studied, overly >>>> hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his >>>> late acquisition, but I heard him speak French >>>> over the course of several months spent in Paris >>>> at the same time. Many people put forward >>>> different aspects of their personalities in their >>>> different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly >>>> the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of his >>>> English. >>>>=20 >>>> Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. >>>>=20 >>>>> I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of >>>>> them were raised in environments where two >>>>> languages were spoken, whether at home or in the >>>>> streets. I've noticed young children in >>>>> bilingual environments who speak one language to >>>>> their mothers and another to their fathers. I've >>>>> asked bilingual adults about their memories of >>>>> early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized >>>>> their bilingualism at that age. They've all told >>>>> me the same thing--they simply spoke the >>>>> appropriate language, French, say, to daddy, >>>>> english to mommy, without really conceptualizing >>>>> them as different languages, much as one learns >>>>> early to speak the same language differently to >>>>> one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this >>>>> all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I also have a great many friends who approach >>>>> bilinguality but come from monolingual >>>>> backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They >>>>> have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply >>>>> don't have. Many of them are professional >>>>> translators. None of them have claimed to me to >>>>> be fully bilingual--the second language remains >>>>> a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Think of it this way. I actively remember the >>>>> early acquisition of only a couple of >>>>> non-learned words in English. Those words are >>>>> forever associated with a place and a time. In >>>>> French and Spanish there are a great many such >>>>> words. I may not think about their origins for >>>>> me very often, but I do when I find myself using >>>>> them with the person from whom I learned them. >>>>> Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of >>>>> the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My >>>>> Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my >>>>> French is a bit better than "practical" and my >>>>> Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both >>>>> the latter). At one point, when I was living in >>>>> France, I hoped that I might become something >>>>> closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of >>>>> that possibility when I spoke to children or >>>>> overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was >>>>> reminded that I would never be anything like an >>>>> unconscious speaker of the babytalk or >>>>> adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I >>>>> would also never have the associational >>>>> vocabulary that indicates the parents' or >>>>> grandparents' generation, nor the emotional >>>>> response to same. With an effort I could learn >>>>> them as a stranger (and as a translator I have >>>>> had to learn some of this), but it would never >>>>> become familiar, unconscious usage. >>>>>=20 >>>>> On one occasion I was walking through the East >>>>> Village with two visiting French friends. They >>>>> had been a couple for a long time. One of them >>>>> suddenly began to speak a language I'd never >>>>> heard before. The other answered. The saw my >>>>> surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the >>>>> French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat pass=E9, I'm told. >>>>>=20 >>>>> None of this means that one can't learn a >>>>> profound degree of competence in a new language. >>>>> It does suggest that what one learns isn't a >>>>> native's competence. It's a difference, but in >>>>> no way a disqualification. Looked at closely >>>>> enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which >>>>> contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. >>>>=20 >>>> Mark >>>>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:41:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Report: Trevor Joyce & Company in Berkeley Comments: cc: UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Trevor Joyce-Fergal Gaynor- Maria(the Finnish Baroque Fiddler) dropped down with a big succcess in the Maude Fife Room at UC Berkeley last night. (One of their tangent vists off the recent Soundeye West event last weekend in Los Angeles). They have upcoming events at Beyond Baroque in LA and, possibly, UC Santa Barbara, and then Trevor heads off solo to U Ohio and one of the institutions in Providence (not a religious one!). If you are anywhere in the vicinity, I suggest catching them. During Trevor Joyce's astonishing rockhard lyric roll through of probably the most strictly compressed verse of which, at least, I am familiar, I began wishing there he could do a back to back reading with Seamus Heaney. Top off that combination with the inclusion of Tom Raworth and/or Peter Manson, and the constrasts, as some might say, would be quite instructive, particularly as to the rigorous differences between the revelation of hard earned sentiment, versus, the soft 'representation' of sentiment. For those unfamiliar with Trevor's work, he uses the cell structure of Excel, and other such software, to create very tight poetic forms of severely isolate cominations and sequences of words. Content and what is 'felt' is constantly contested by the structure to create a finely toned weaving of "text tiles" (the 'tiles' are the individual words that are made to fit into each pre-fixed cell). All of which might sound like formal hokey-pokey, but Trevor as not a poet dummy, brings in terrifce goods. I was sitting next to Lyn Hejinian and Jean Day - the three of us practically on the edge of our seats, listening. Now, by virtue of the the death of the dollar, which has brought a great bang for the travel buck for those with Pounds or Euros, I hope more USA institutions and reading sites can begin to welcome in more folks from Europe, Ireland, and England (not to mention other countries about the globe). There are, it seems to me, a number of great/very good Irish/Brit poets to 'invade" and throw much more of what happened last night at Berkeley. A likeable kind of reverse imperialism! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:21:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Wow! This is wonderful! - definitely a wonder! - Alan On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > i'm so glad. she's a wonder. best, g > > Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. > freelance writer, editor, teacher > welford@hawaii.edu > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, David Chirot wrote: > >> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071011/ap_en_ot/nobel_literature;_ylt=Alwwe8BpVyhX86.r6iGerubK.nQA >> --- >> > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 06:34:13 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071011165525.05a10d70@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well put. So now it's you who should write the letter that Diane refuses to write. Mark Weiss wrote: OK, Barry. I think most people on the list get it. Without even refreshing my memory about the article: 1. The reason most of us like comnplete or collected editions is not because poet x never wrote a mediocre poem, but because if poet x ever wrote a poem that really intrigues us we want to know as much as we can about his process. 2. Simic apparently isn't interested in process. 3. He cites favorably only poems that can stand alone, as opposed to poems that work as part of a series. He doesn't even seem to notice that from Pieces on Creeley is writing in books. Pieces itself is designed on the page to make it unlikely one could miss this. Because he doesn't realize, or lets us think he doesn't realize, that the book is the unit he thinks he's proven his point by quoting a few lines out of context. Of course one could do the same with Shakespeare. 4. He seems not to understand that in Pieces and thereafter Creeley is creating environments of words and lines, in which the silences are as important as the sounds. He really wants well-wrought urns, preferrably wearing all those themes so convenient for teaching right on their surfaces. 5. The kind of writing he doesn't get is usually called open form. It's not about first thought best thought, to quote Ginsberg--presumably a whole lot of stuff wound up in Creeley's notebooks that never made it into the poems, and I'd be surprised if he never cleaned up around the edges. But it is an attempt to evade the internal censor that says "this is poetic, that isn't," or "this is appropriate to say, that isn't." Which means that the poem doesn't tell you where it's going til you get there, which is the discovery of the shape of the experience, and it's just as much a surprise to the poet--poet and reader have both learned something. This kind of writing is dangerous to an ordered life and perhaps threatening who depend on a burocratized sense of sense. 6. An aside: in mentioning the poems he likes he misses The Finger, in Pieces, to my mind the best of Creeley's stand-alone poems, also I think his longest. One of the hreat poems in the language. Selon moi. Maybe Simic was akimming. 7. When he talks about Creeley's place in the world he makes a very odd claim, that Creeley was as famous as Lowell, and almost as famous as Ginsberg, circa 1965. This is utter nonsense. Like it or not, all of us who read Creeley read Lowell, while most of those who read Lowell had never heard of Creeley. Ginsberg was of course a celebrity, though less so than he would later become, but among those concerned with poetry Lowell was a close second--he was the white knight of the establishment literary scene. 8. So why elevate Creeley? To knock down all who work in open form. Notice Simic doesn't say it doesn't ring his bell, he says that it was a mistake, a delusion. 9. Interestingly, his brief mention of Olson describes him as a fisherman, a postman, a semocratic aparatchik and a member of the Roosevelt administration. The first two were summer jobs when he was in high school and college. Whatever thought Simic had in mind isn't played out, but it could hardly have been laudatory. 10. With lots and lots of caveats and lots and lots of variations, Ceeley represents a kind of poetry in which an act or voyage of discovery happens in the course of the poem, Simic a kind of poetry in which an act of discovery is recollected in tranquility and reshaped for the public. These are radically different ways to conceptualize not only the act of writing but the way one lives. Creeley's way is literally experimental--each poem, each moment in a life, conceived as an experiment, a "what if." I could probably be more lucid about this if I had the time, but I don't. Mark At 02:03 PM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >But it's you who takes Creeley to represent a >school of poetry, no? And almost all of us on >this list seem to agree with you in this! > >Mark Weiss >wrote: Murat: Much here to elucidate and argue over. >I'll confine myself to a very few things: > >1. I personally don't care if Simic (or anyone >else, for that matter) likes Creeley's work. What >concerned me in the review was the terms of the >criticism, which set Creeley up to represent and >condemn an entire school of American poetry (and >British, too, if Simic's eye strayed that far). > >2. "For almost a hundred years people did not >like Dickinson's poetry." This mystifies me. >Sure, there were some hostile critics, but much >of the initial reception of the poems when they >first came out in the 1890s, from critics and >from the reading public (there used to be a >reading public), was enthusiastic. The >anthologies that I grew up with, rmy mother's >course books in High School and college, first >published in the 20s and 30s, devoted as much >space to Dickinson as to Whitman, each of whom >received more space than anyone else. > >3. "The idea of tradition does not exist in >American poetry." I don't think this is true. But >perhaps you mean tradition in a special sense? > >Mark > > >At 12:50 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: > >Mark, > > > >I was basically responding to Diane's comment, if I understood her > >correctly, that Simic did not, could not understand the subtleties in C's > >poetry because he was a foreigner. I think that argument is basically > >nonsensical. I love C's poetry. But it is possible to understand C's poetry > >fully and still not like it. For almost a hundred years people did not like > >Dickinson's poetry. Most of these people were native speaking New > >Englanders. > > > >But, I was referring to something beyond that, something related to the > >nature of American English as a poetic language and to the nature of > >American culture: > > > >a) In our day, American English functions as an imperial language, as a > >lingua franca, even for its "native" speaker. One may call it a > >"step-mother" tongue. The relation of the poet to such a language is > >different from a poet using a "mother" tongue. It involves a subtle > >linguistic alienation which the poet needs to confront and, to my mind, > >exploit. > > > >b) Since the advent of photography in the 19th century, later tabloid > >newspapers, movies, etc., the main medium of public communication, of myth > >building in The United States has progressively been visual, not words. As a > >result, verbal language in a subtle way is shunted aside. A very significant > >schism has occurred between public (imperial) language and mother tongue. > >The American poetry is written in a step-mother tongue, the "mother tongue" > >trying to carve entries into this monolith. As a result, unlike in English > >or French poetry for instance, the idea of tradition does not exist in > >American poetry. (But this is another argument.) > > > >Ciao, > > > >Murat > > > > > >On 10/10/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > > > Murat: You seem to have missed my response to > > > Alex Dickow, perhaps because it was under a > > > different subject heading. It's a bit more > > > nuanced, if I can use the word, and closer to > > > what I at any rate was talking about. Note that > > > I'm far more interested in the question of > > > language acquisition, and how the acquirer > > > experiences it, than whether when or how one > > > learns it has any influence on how one writes, > > > much less on the quality (or qualities) of the writing. > > > > > > That said, none of us use any language fully. We > > > come to the table with different abilities and > > > different needs. Presumably one writes > > > differently accordingly. The recognitiion of difference is not > > > disparagement. > > > > > > One of my translator/scholar friends writes in > > > Spanish and speaks flawless, idiomatic Mexican > > > Spanish--I first met her at a Mexican poetry > > > conference, at which she was one of the few > > > non-Mexicans, and listening to her one heard > > > nothing to betray that she had learned the > > > language as a teenager, not even the slight > > > hesitations that for most of us accompany the > > > working-around of a concept that we lack the word > > > for in the new language. She's one of the > > > translators in my Cuban anthology, and she sent > > > me her cv so that I could extract a bio note. > > > Under "languages" she notes "near-bilingual in > > > Spanish." I asked her about this, and she cited > > > the kinds of things I mention below. It isn't for > > > her a matter of the quality of the product but > > > her consciousness of in her case a small degree > > > of distance. I've been told similar things by > > > other friends who appear to be bilingual, and > > > function as such, but don't claim to be so. > > > > > > You and Pierre are not unique as translators into > > > a second language, in your case from your primary > > > language, in Pierre's from languages learned very > > > young and also more recently acquired languages > > > which remain less fully acquired (I'm thinking of > > > Arabic, Pierre). Not unique, but there are very > > > very few who do so successfully. Most attempts to > > > translate into the acquired language fall short > > > of adequacy--I'm thinking of Brodsky's > > > self-translations (I take it on the testimony of > > > Russian speakers that in Russian he's a very > > > great poet) and of Eliseo Diego's translations of > > > himself and other Cuban poets. Eliseo seems to > > > have thought of himself as fully bilingual, but > > > you wouldn't guess that from the translations. > > > > > > I do understand that this is a sensitive issue > > > for many. It would be lovely to have a less fraught discussion about it. > > > > > > As to Zukofsky, once again, he was raised in a > > > polyglot environment that began at the door of > > > the family home and was educated in English from the age of five. > > > > > > A better example might be Armand Schwerner, who > > > was innocent of English until his family arrived > > > in New York when he was 9. Armand's spoken > > > English was often odd--over-studied, overly > > > hieratic. One might have ascribed that to his > > > late acquisition, but I heard him speak French > > > over the course of several months spent in Paris > > > at the same time. Many people put forward > > > different aspects of their personalities in their > > > different languages. Not Armand. He was exactly > > > the same in his native French, which had all the peculiarities of his > > > English. > > > > > > Here's that earlier email. Note the final paragraph. > > > > > > >I have friends who are truly bilingual. All of > > > >them were raised in environments where two > > > >languages were spoken, whether at home or in the > > > >streets. I've noticed young children in > > > >bilingual environments who speak one language to > > > >their mothers and another to their fathers. I've > > > >asked bilingual adults about their memories of > > > >early childhood speech--how they conceptual;ized > > > >their bilingualism at that age. They've all told > > > >me the same thing--they simply spoke the > > > >appropriate language, French, say, to daddy, > > > >english to mommy, without really conceptualizing > > > >them as different languages, much as one learns > > > >early to speak the same language differently to > > > >one's parents and to one's playmates. I see this > > > >all the time in my largely Spanish-speaking neighborhood, by the way. > > > > > > > >I also have a great many friends who approach > > > >bilinguality but come from monolingual > > > >backgrounds. They drive me wild with envy. They > > > >have a degree of linguistic talent that I simply > > > >don't have. Many of them are professional > > > >translators. None of them have claimed to me to > > > >be fully bilingual--the second language remains > > > >a learned entity, and they remain conscious of that fact. > > > > > > > >Think of it this way. I actively remember the > > > >early acquisition of only a couple of > > > >non-learned words in English. Those words are > > > >forever associated with a place and a time. In > > > >French and Spanish there are a great many such > > > >words. I may not think about their origins for > > > >me very often, but I do when I find myself using > > > >them with the person from whom I learned them. > > > >Which for a moment bifurcates my apprehension of > > > >the language in a way particular to that kind of encounter. > > > > > > > >Here's another. I am far from bilingual. My > > > >Hebrew has almost completely fallen away, my > > > >French is a bit better than "practical" and my > > > >Spanish less so (though I read fluently in both > > > >the latter). At one point, when I was living in > > > >France, I hoped that I might become something > > > >closer to bilingual. I realized the limits of > > > >that possibility when I spoke to children or > > > >overheard adolescents. On those occasions I was > > > >reminded that I would never be anything like an > > > >unconscious speaker of the babytalk or > > > >adolescent cant appropriate to my generation. I > > > >would also never have the associational > > > >vocabulary that indicates the parents' or > > > >grandparents' generation, nor the emotional > > > >response to same. With an effort I could learn > > > >them as a stranger (and as a translator I have > > > >had to learn some of this), but it would never > > > >become familiar, unconscious usage. > > > > > > > >On one occasion I was walking through the East > > > >Village with two visiting French friends. They > > > >had been a couple for a long time. One of them > > > >suddenly began to speak a language I'd never > > > >heard before. The other answered. The saw my > > > >surprise, and explained. It was verlan, the > > > >French piglatin of their generation, now somewhat passé, I'm told. > > > > > > > >None of this means that one can't learn a > > > >profound degree of competence in a new language. > > > >It does suggest that what one learns isn't a > > > >native's competence. It's a difference, but in > > > >no way a disqualification. Looked at closely > > > >enough, we each speak our unique dialect, which > > > >contains more than enough to meet whatever needs we imagine for it. > > > > > > Mark > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:08:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Notes by an Avatartist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Notes by an Avatartist As avatartist, we are our avatar Jennifer-Julu-Nikuko-Travis-Alan and our avatar is us, both controlled by motion-capture behaviors using remapped sensors and moving at ultra-high-speeds among other avatars, landscapes, virtual worlds in the real, online, in one's mind. But our avatar is unique, our avatar is tissue, our avatar transforms backwards and forwards at perceptually instantaneous speed between frames. Our avatar is alien. Jennifer: "our avatar has slimy avatar movement, wormlike shape-shifting, at warp high-speed perceptually conflated with itself, our avatar is speed-alien, malleable and originating tissue. as originating, our avatar is demiurge, producing and reproducing, originating worlds and gatherings of the true world." Julu: "our avatar is disparaged body or bodies, our avatar is OTHERING, here and there moving asymptotically among fractal intrusions, our avatar prepares the appearance of twisted connected topologies, limit-sets of behaviors, topological counterexamples and distraught spaces piled upon themselves at warp-high speed." Nikuko: "our avatar is implicate orderings, twisted among themselves, still connected or with connections' memory, tangled as if untangled, messed as if unmessed, abject, as if clarified, our avatar is cephalic or ocular, eyes and doubling eyes, gendering and originating, producing and reproducing." Travis: "our avatar is detritus machine, residue-machine, with symbolic input, language input, bvh input, ascii input, inchoate output, our avatar is ALIEN-BETTER-LEFT-UNDEFINED, that is _alien << inchoate_, symbols effaced by behavior-gatherings, the true world, asymbolia. Alan: "our avatar is un-is, truly disconnected topologies, connectors gone with interior body viewpoint, resulting sheaves, surfaces, in relative positions, holding relative positions, but the manifolds are open, broken, think of chimera composites." Jennifer: "in other words, in the true world of gatherings, our avatar is open and gathering from within, closed and coherent from without, as-if our avatar, as if Jennifer-Julu-Nikuko-Travis-Alan, as-if but not as-if, not really, in the true world really a gathering." Julu: "in other words, we are true world being." = ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:26:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." Doris Lessing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:46:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: How China Got Religion - essay by Slovaj Zizek MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just as Pound found a totalitarian impulse deeply seeded in Kung, so too it seems China is--I'd say--returning to its past. Once again, looking at Pound is a way to versteyen. Gerald S. > as always some provocative ideas from Mr Zizek-- > the Chinese government feeling that Buddhism is good because it helps > promote harmony is an echo of studies on how Buddhists are found by > American corporations and businesses to be ideal kinds of workers for > a similar reason-- > "it's the economy stupid" is the "hidden tiger"-- > that and control--(whose idea of what harmony meansand sounds like--) > and "empty" 'cultural' forms faced by ones taken to be real-- > which paradoxically seems "hard to believe"-- > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/opinion/11zizek.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin > --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Press & Journal Subject: First paper edition of Tarpaulin Sky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Dear Readers & Friends, The first paper edition of Tarpaulin Sky Literary Journal is now available for pre-orders and will ship in late November. (Online issues will continue unabated--Spring '08 will be guest-edited by Bhanu Kapil.) TARPAULIN SKY JOURNAL Issue #13 / Print Issue #1 Poetry/Prose/Hybrid Forms & Etc 7"x9", 160 pages, perfectbound ISBN: 9780977901968 $12 includes shipping in the US ($6 for contributors to the issue) http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/index.html Featuring new work by 52 contributors: Rosa Alcalá Samuel Amadon Lucy Anderton Claire Becker Cara Benson Ilya Bernstein Joseph Bradshaw Popahna Brandes Daniel Brenner Lily Brown Julie Carr Laura Carter Jon Christensen Heather Christle John Cotter & Shafer Hall Patrick Culliton John Deming Sean Thomas Dougherty Danielle Dutton Sandy Florian Hillary Gravendyk Annie Guthrie Brent Hendricks Anna Maria Hong John Hyland Lucy Ives Karla Kelsey Steve Langan Barbara Maloutas Sarah Mangold Justin Marks Teresa K. Miller Jefferson Navicky Bryson Newhart Nadia Nurhussein Thomas O'Connell Caryl Pagel Nate Pritts Elizabeth Robinson F. Daniel Rzicznek Spencer Selby Brandon Shimoda Lytton Smith Sampson Starkweather Mathias Svalina Jen Tynes Prabhakar Vasan Della Watson Theodore Worozbyt Bethany Wright Kristen Yawitz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:10:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathleen Ossip Subject: Not for Mothers Only Reading Tuesday 10/16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A POETRY READING in celebration of: NOT FOR MOTHERS ONLY: Contemporary Poems on Child-Getting and Child-Rearing, Catherine Wagner, ed., Rebecca Wolff, ed. (FENCE BOOKS) http://www.fencebooks.com TUESDAY, OCTOBER 16th=A0 7pm-9pm MANHATTAN CAMPUS St. JOHN'S UNIVERSITY (101 Murray Street at West Side Highway) SAVAL AUDITORIUM (2nd floor) http://www.stjohns.edu/about/general/directions/directions/manhattan Featured Poets:=A0 Stacy Doris, Kimberly Lyons, Akilah Oliver, Kathleen Ossip, & Anne Waldman,=20 hosted by Lee Ann Brown and the Graduate Workshop in Poetry and Poetics ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:13:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to rain on the parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written anything of interest (or even quality) in approximately 30 years. I imagine she's receiving the award for the Martha Quest series, "The Golden Notebook" and maybe "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan writers? Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, who spent most of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What kind of message does this send? (I think some of us know the answer to that one.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Andrews Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." > Doris Lessing > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: DOJ 'PERSECUTION,' ILLNESS FORCE SCIENTIST TO PLEAD; WIFE AND DAUGHTER COMMENT Comments: To: Theory and Writing , dreamtime@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Begin forwarded message: > From: CAE Defense Fund > Date: October 12, 2007 9:22:12 AM CDT > To: "dtv-mwt.net" > Subject: DOJ 'PERSECUTION,' ILLNESS FORCE SCIENTIST TO PLEAD; WIFE > AND DAUGHTER COMMENT > > To edit your profile or unsubscribe from mailings, please visit > http://209.51.180.29/old/cdt/prof.php?e=dtv@mwt.net&x=742098233 > > October 11, 2007 > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > CONTACTS: > Email: mailto:media@caedefensefund.org > Claire Pentecost: 773-383-9771 > Gregory Sholette: 212-865-3076 > Edmund Cardoni: 716-854-1694 > Igor Vamos: 917-209-3282 > Lucia Sommer: 716-359-3061 > Dianne Raeke Ferrell: 412-352-2704 > > SICKNESS, "ABSURD" DOJ PROSECUTION FORCE SCIENTIST TO PLEAD IN > PRECEDENT-SETTING CASE > Scientist's Wife and Daughter Comment on Case > > Buffalo, NY - Today in Federal District Court, Dr. Robert Ferrell, > Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Pittsburgh Graduate > School of Public Health, under tremendous pressure, pled guilty to > lesser charges rather than facing a prolonged trial for federal > charges of "mail fraud" and "wire fraud" in a surreal post-PATRIOT > Act legal case that has attracted worldwide attention. > > "From the beginning, this has been a persecution, not a prosecution. > Although I have not seen the final agreement, the initial versions > contained incorrect and irrelevant information," said Dr. Dianne > Raeke Ferrell, Dr. Ferrell's wife and an Associate Professor of > Special Education and Clinical Services at Indiana University of > Pennsylvania. "Bob is a 27 year survivor of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma > which has reoccurred numerous times. He has also had malignant > melanoma. Since this whole nightmare began, Bob has had two minor > strokes and a major stroke which required months of rehabilitation." > > Dr. Ferrell added that her husband was indicted just as he was > preparing to undergo a painful and dangerous autologous stem cell > transplant, the second in 7 years. > > The Ferrells' daughter, Gentry Chandler Ferrell, added: "Our family > has struggled with an intense uncertainty about physical, emotional > and financial health for a long time. Agreeing to a plea deal is a > small way for dad to try to eliminate one of those uncertainties and > hold on a little longer to the career he worked so hard to develop... > Sadly, while institutions merely are tarnished from needless > litigation, individuals are torn apart. I remain unable to wrap my > mind around the absurdity of the government's pursuit of this case > and I am saddened that it has been dragged out to the point where my > dad opted to settle from pure exhaustion." (To read Gentry Ferrell's > full statement, please visit: > http://caedefensefund.org/press/ferrellplea.html) > > Dr. Ferrell's colleague Dr. Steven Kurtz, founder of the > internationally acclaimed art and theater group Critical Art > Ensemble, was illegally detained and accused of "bioterrorism" by the > U.S. government in 2004 stemming from his acquisition from Dr. > Ferrell of harmless bacteria used in several of Critical Art > Ensemble's educational art projects. After a costly investigation > lasting several months and failing to provide any evidence of > "bioterrorism," the Department of Justice instead brought charges of > "mail fraud" and "wire fraud" against Kurtz and Ferrell. Under the > USA PATRIOT Act, the maximum penalty for these charges has increased > from 5 years to 20. (For more information about the case, please see > "Background to the Case" below or http://caedefensefund.org) > > JURIDICAL ART CRITICISM? > > The government is vigorously attempting to prosecute two defendants > in a case where no one has been injured, and no one has been > defrauded. The materials found in Dr. Kurtz's house were obtained > legally and used safely by the artist. After three and a half years > of investigation and prosecution, the case still revolves around > $256 worth of common science research materials that were used in > art works by a highly visible and respected group of artists. These > art works were commissioned and hosted by cultural institutions > worldwide where they had been safely displayed in museums and > galleries with absolutely no risk to the public. > > The Government has consistently framed this case as an issue of > public safety, but the materials used by Critical Art Ensemble are > widely available, can be purchased by anyone from High School science > supply catalogues, and are regularly mailed. > > PROFESSORS OF ART & SCIENCE EXPRESS ALARM > > "The government's prosecution is an ill-conceived and misguided > attack on the scientific and artistic communities," said Dr. Richard > Gronostajski, Professor of Biochemistry at SUNY Buffalo, where > Professor Kurtz also teaches. "It could have a chilling effect on > future scientific research collaborations, and harm teaching efforts > and interactions between scientists, educators and artists." > > "It's deeply alarming that the government could pressure someone of > Dr. Ferrell's stature into agreeing to something like this. The case > threatens all Americans' Constitutionally guaranteed right to > question the actions of their government," said Igor Vamos, Professor > of Integrated Electronic Arts at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. > > PLEA COMES AMIDST OVERWHELMING PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR DEFENDANTS > > The plea bargain agreement comes at a time of overwhelming public > support for the two defendants. A film about the case, Strange > Culture - directed by Lynn Hershman Leeson and featuring Tilda > Swinton (Chronicles of Narnia, Michael Clayton), Thomas Jay Ryan > (Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind), and Peter Coyote (E.T., Erin > Brockovich) - has drawn widespread critical praise and public > interest, with screenings in dozens of U.S. cities after its > selection to open both the 2007 Human Rights Watch International Film > Festival and the Berlin International Film Festival documentary > section. An October 1 screening of the film at the Museum of Modern > Art in New York City drew a crowd of 400 who stayed for an hour > afterward for a discussion with Professor Kurtz, director Hershman > Leeson, and actress Tilda Swinton. Special benefit screenings of the > film in numerous cities have raised thousands of dollars to offset > the two defendants' escalating legal costs. > > BACKGROUND TO THE CASE > > The legal nightmare of renowned scientist Dr. Robert Ferrell and > artist and professor Dr. Steven Kurtz began in May 2004. Professor > Kurtz and his late wife Hope were founding members of the > internationally exhibited art and theater collective Critical Art > Ensemble. Over the past decade cultural institutions worldwide have > commissioned and hosted Critical Art Ensemble's participatory theater > projects that help the general public understand biotechnology and > the many issues surrounding it. In May 2004 the Kurtzes were > preparing a project examining genetically modified agriculture for > the Massachusetts Museum of Contemporary Art, when Hope Kurtz died of > heart failure. Detectives who responded to Professor Kurtz's 911 call > deemed the couple's art suspicious, and called the FBI. Within hours > the artist was illegally detained as a suspected "bioterrorist" as > dozens of federal agents in Hazmat suits sifted through his work and > impounded his computers, manuscripts, books, his cat, and even his > wife's body. > > CASE DEPLETES PUBLIC AND PRIVATE RESOURCES > > The government has pursued this case relentlessly for three and a > half years, spending enormous amounts of public resources. Most > significantly, the legal battle has exhausted the financial, > emotional, and physical resources of Ferrell and Kurtz; as well as > their families and supporters. The professional and personal lives of > both defendants have suffered tremendously. A trial date has not yet > been established. > > > For more information about the case, including extensive > documentation, please visit http://caedefensefund.org > > ### > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:06:40 -0400 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: Paul Lauritzen's Door MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My colleague Paul Lauritzen, a renowned ethicist and the director of Applied Ethics at John Carroll University, has never been one to hide his political views. As long as I've been at the university (I began just weeks before September 11th, 2001), Lauritzen employed his office window and door as a political palette, an alternative news wall that would extend and project itself into the spaces of the academy so frequently denuded of such viewpoints. One of my favorite extensions of language into the academic space was when he used a LCD projection screen to cast upon the white wall in the hallway just across from his office the cost of the war in dollars--a dizzying number forever spiralling that the passerby literally would have to step through as s/he walked down the hall. (Apropos of denudations--I've almost given up flyering for poetry readings, because the clean-up crew apparently has been instructed to tear down flyers (even those who have received proper stamps for posting) unless they appear on seven sanctioned postboards, which, as far as I can tell, exist only in the corners of buildings. In an age of information bombardment, it is increasingly difficult to penetrate the defended consciousness of the average college student, who is so bedraggled by coursework, jobs, love troubles, text messages, and the like, that they are lucky to remember their own names.) In any case, Lauritzen's door became the object of controversy when an anonymous tip was called into "Ethics Point," reporting that Lauritzen had something inflammatory on his door. It was a sign that said, IMPEACH BUSH. Human Resources stepped in, and removed the sign, then emailed him to say why it happened--they interpreted a university policy in such a way that would make such signage forbidden. Faculty Council intervened on his behalf, and Lauritzen met with John Carroll's in-house council, Maria Alfaro-Lopez, to gain clarification about the policy, and some indication in writing that he was not violating policy and that the party who reported it would be informed of the university's support of his free speech. In Lauritzen's words, The current situation is fairly Orwellian. I have been told that the original email [from Human Resources] was in error. I have asked to receive in writing a statement to that effect, but have been told that there is a university policy, but no agreed upon interpretation of it that would either permit or forbid me to post a sign. The upshot is that Maria would not put in writing that no university policy prevented me from posting my "Impeach Bush" sign. She agreed to put something in writing to the effect that there is no agreed upon interpretation of university policy, but she has not yet sent that to me. There was some effort to suggest that the individual faculty member's door was theirs to use as they saw fit, but that the door of an "institution" such as Applied Ethics might be inappropriate. This seems like hair-splitting, yet the questions that arise regarding a faculty member's rights to express viewpoints that may be inflammatory--the very rights upon which academic freedom is based--are in question. One might say that the "IMPEACH BUSH" did exactly what it was meant to do--to shake someone into doing something about it. Calling Ethics Point was not the intended action, but it compelled someone to respond, to attempt to use institutional power against this voice within the institution. So frequently, those who dissent become the object, ad hominem, of the ire of those their language disturbs. There is indeed a place for language that disturbs, that unsettles. Lauritzen's new sign, posted above, is a poem from Miguel de Unamuno, and offers a subtler but no less defiant stance against those who attempt to bully people into silence. The message, now, extends not only to the President, but to those who wish to silence Lauritzen. It is a political language that might perplex rather than inflame, yet one which seems as necessary as ever. If and when Lauritzen returns to more fact-based rhetorical means, we at John Carroll will be none the poorer. It is possible that our arguments benefit from a kind of oscillation between the interpellative invitation of the Martin Luther Kings, and the threatening fist-shaking of the Malcolm Xs--a kind of Hegelian dialectic of protest. We need to be unsettled and we need to be invited, in order to shake ourselves from the trance of this war, and all the arguments summoned to continue it. [YOU CAN SEE THE SIGN ON MY BLOG} Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:11:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: (not simic) on creeley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable with all the talk of simic/creeley, I thought I'd=20 share a portion of an essay I recently completed=20 on Creeley. Actually an essay written some=20 20-plus years ago, not published, that I didn't=20 know I still had, until a couple of months ago=20 when I was going through boxes during a Chax=20 Press move. I took out the essay, recently edited=20 it, including inserting new remarks, italicized,=20 commenting on the text. Here's several pages, a=20 little less than a fourth of the whole. The=20 entire essay will be available soon in the online=20 journal EOAGH, edited by Tim Peterson. I am=20 putting this part of the essay here with Tim's=20 permission. I'm pasting this from a word=20 document, so I hope it retains its italics and other formatting. ORDERED FRAGMENTS ( ) OF A DISORDERED DEVOTION recovered in august 2007 after some 25 years, in=20 a box found while moving / an essay I remember=20 writing and remember as critical not so much to=20 understanding Creeley as to thinking about=20 a possible poetics / italicized interventions=20 and meanderings made in september 2007 I Inarticulacy: Inside the Parentheses the holes there / the holes I want there / the ability to wander I might not say inarticulate anymore / rather=20 open to multiple articulations / there is no such thing as blank space Robert Creeley=92s writing lacks clarification; it=20 lacks a subject. In ordinary discourse, literary=20 or otherwise, we usually know the center of=20 attention. We know what we are talking about; we=20 have a subject. In a piece of writing by Creeley,=20 poem or story, we stand on no such common ground.=20 If only he would explain, we might think: even a=20 clarification such as a parenthetical remark=20 could give. But no such assurance is given. The=20 inside of the parenthesis is inarticulate. The=20 ground we stand on quakes. The speaker is not=20 sure, even about what we might take to be a simple relationship. I think I know, I think I know about what she=92d=20 do if this or that happened, if I were to say=20 this to her, or something about something, or=20 what people usually talk about. (GD 25) In these lines from =93Mr. Blue,=94 much of the=20 characteristic stance of the voice in Creeley=92s=20 writing reveals itself. It is instructive to=20 examine carefully how this utterance shapes=20 itself, or how it does not shape itself. Not =93I=20 know,=94 but =93I think I know;=94 and not =93I think I=20 know=94 simply and firmly (as firmly as =93think=94=20 might allow), but followed by a hesitancy and a=20 repetition. When we finally are allowed a more=20 expansive phrasing, we see not =93I think I know=20 what she=92d do,=94 but =93I think I know about what=20 she=92d do.=94 Here not only infirmity reigns, but=20 ambiguity, in the word =93about,=94 one of the small=20 words of placement favored by Creeley. Does=20 =93about=94 join with =93I know=94 to suggest the speaker=20 understands the nature of what his wife would do,=20 or does it align with =93what she=92d do=94 to imply he=20 knows approximately what she would do? If such a=20 statement appeared in a Creeley poem, we might=20 expect =93about=94 either to be interrupted during=20 its utterance by a line break, or to occupy a=20 line by itself, unable to securely lend its=20 weight either to what precedes or to what=20 follows. The ambiguity in the story leads not to=20 the consideration of a specific cause that might=20 stimulate an action by the wife, rather to the=20 less specific =93if this or that happened, if I=20 were to say this to her, or something about=20 something, or what people usually talk about.=94=20 Such generality. Everything is relative, left=20 open to chance, as we gather by the proliferation=20 of words that suggest such relativity: if, this,=20 or, that, something, about, usually, etc., some=20 of these words appearing more than once. The=20 entire sentence stands as merely one example of=20 the ways in which a highly ordered language can=20 say very little, yet suggest, in the manner of=20 its inarticulacy, an insecure stance toward=20 reality. Robert Creeley appears devoted to a=20 reality, to existence as an emotional state, the=20 emotions disordered in that they do not lend=20 themselves to clear exposition; but the language=20 is highly ordered. In a controlled manner,=20 Creeley=92s speaker manifests his lack of control. what is this balance / order & control / lack of=20 control / a space we can enter / a space left open Lack of control, or lack of power, is the subject=20 in Creeley=92s writing. It is not stated, rather it=20 is the inside of the parentheses which we are not=20 given. =933 Fate Tales=94 opens with an oblique=20 approach that suggests such lack of control as it=20 shows that an identity is beyond the capacity of the speaker. I put it this way. That I am, say, myself, that=20 this, or this feel, you can=92t have, or from that=20 man or this, me, you can=92t take it. And what I=20 would do, with any of this, is beyond you, and=20 mine. But for this time, yours too. (GD, 45) The shiftings of ungrounded language are typical=20 of the openings of Creeley stories. He places us=20 in a quandary at the opening of =93In The Summer.=94 I am not saying that it was ever to the point or=20 that a purpose could be so neatly and unopposedly=20 defined. Or that twenty-one or so years ago, on=20 that day, or on this, he was then, or is now,=20 there or here, that we could know him and see him=20 to be what he is. I don=92t much care for that. I=20 had my own time to do, a number of things to do.=20 I had heard, then, that the growing-up of=20 anything could become an involved and crippling=20 process. I could see the sun each day, coming up,=20 and then each night, going down. I gave my time to that. At this point a reader might throw up his or her=20 hands in dismay at not having a clue as to the=20 subject of the story. Yet Creeley achieves much=20 in this beginning, though it may not be perceived=20 during an initial reading. He approaches, as=20 closely as he ever will, statement of the prosaic=20 subject: the effect of the past on the present,=20 the debilitating process of maturing. More=20 importantly, he dramatizes, in a voice, the true=20 subject of the story and of all of Creeley=92s=20 stories: the insecurity and insubstantiality of being. ungrounded? / perhaps it=92s when language stops=20 functioning as symbol and begins to function as=20 field, that it is precisely grounded, and grounds=20 us, in community / walter benjamin=92s dream of a=20 language that can=92t mean but that can ground us We learn much about Creeley=92s writing if we read=20 it as growing one word at a time. In this=20 excerpt, first comes =93I,=94 the central actor in=20 many works by Creeley; the more we read him, the=20 more autobiographical we see his writing to be.=20 At least we see it as an exploration of what=20 existence means to its author. Second, =93I am,=94=20 the statement of existence, simply, without hint=20 of what that existence might signify. Third, =93I=20 am not.=94 Now all is taken away in typical=20 Creeleyesque fashion. Give us something to hold,=20 then make it disintegrate in our hands. Are we=20 even dust in the wind? Fourth, =93I am not saying=94:=20 precisely the message Creeley=92s writing carries=20 forth to the world. He is not saying anything; he=20 can not say anything. He can only show, in his=20 manner of utterance, what he is, and we can not=20 even put a firm finger on that. Creeley orders=20 his writing immaculately, even at times like=20 this, word by careful word; and the order reveals=20 his essential inarticulacy and insecurity. The=20 remainder of the opening paragraph develops the=20 insecurity, full of Creeley shiftings. We shift with him, nervously. does all writing grow one word at a time / are we words or ideas? One can begin anywhere in reading Creeley: with=20 the poems, the stories, the novel, the letters=20 and essays. When I first began, I read the poems;=20 when I later read the stories I was stunned to=20 find the same rhythms there, the same tones, as=20 if these were not fictions at all, merely more=20 Creeley, writing. Thus I tend to minimize the=20 formal and generic distinctions between his=20 works, while recognizing what can not be missed,=20 the stylistic similarities, the common sense of phrasing, of language. By looking at a poem we can see how there, too,=20 he is inarticulate and maintains a tenuous hold on subject, on the world. SPEECH Simple things one wants to say like, what=92s the day like, out there=AD who am I and where. (B, 101) read another way entirely, what a joyful poem!=20 who am I=ADcan=92t that be a question that lifts one?=20 or be heard as a cry of freedom? Like the stories, =93Speech=94 leaves us with more=20 questions than answers. Return to the title; is=20 the poem a speech? Or is it about speech? It is=20 both and neither. It implies more than most=20 orators say in a speech, but it says little. It=20 suggests much about the act of speaking and the=20 difficulty of saying anything, yet it explicitly=20 tells us nothing about speaking (implicitly it=20 tells us much). It is more carefully ordered than=20 is most rhetoric, but does not really make=20 points. In what sense is it even a poem? It makes=20 of rhyme a complex music, but is devoid of=20 metaphor and metonymy. On the other hand it=20 magnificently satisfies modernist poetry=92s demand=20 for economy and concision, in that it means much=20 while saying little. Pound might demand this of a=20 poem; yet Pound also said =93only emotion endures=94=20 in poetry, and this poem=92s language seems to lack=20 emotion. But Pound is not Creeley=92s only mentor.=20 Another, Louis Zukofsky, has said that in poetry=20 =93emotion is a matter of cadence.=94 In this way, in=20 its manner of saying, in its total articulation=20 of sound, Creeley=92s poem is emotional, although=20 the emotions are difficult to define. ahh / so young here / aren=92t emotions always=20 difficult, no impossible, to define / or, do they=20 exist? are they chemical? who am I / and where The poem is not simple at all, as its first line=20 might lead us to believe; speech is not simple.=20 One wants to speak, even to define oneself, but=20 can not know, with security, what the day is=20 like, one=92s own location, or even his identity.=20 In such an encumbered position, and such a human=20 situation, how difficult it is to speak. How is=20 the difficulty achieved, the tentativeness=20 manifested, in this poem? Like the utterances in=20 stories, it shows in the words which can not be=20 specific: one, things, what, there, who, where.=20 It shows in the stops, in the inability to=20 continue easily. We pause at line breaks, after=20 =93things,=94 not certain what things they are; we=20 pause after =93day,=94 left with the question =93what=20 is the day,=94 yet we are made to continue,=20 haltingly, to say =93like.=94 The end-line hyphen=20 after =93out there=94 leads us directly into a void,=20 not a =93there=94 but a =93nowhere.=94 As in Creeley=92s=20 stories, we also pause with quick commas. Here=20 they come immediately after we begin lines, both=20 times after the word =93like.=94 Finally, we do not=20 even know what the day is like, much less what it=20 is; and we do not know specific things, but=20 things =93like=94 the examples given, the =93like=94=20 implying that many more subjects could be=20 included in what we might want to say but can not=20 know how to say. There is no stated subject to=20 the poem; it is not the =93simple things,=94 it is=20 the inability to know or speak, which is enacted rather than stated. is dislocation another name for this / or nomadic The poem presents still more difficulties. It=20 seems unable to say things, so it poses its words=20 as questions; but we are not sure they are=20 questions, for there are no question marks. We=20 end with a period which concludes nothing. The=20 sounds of the poem, highly ordered, imply no such=20 order in the speaker=92s mind or in the world. We=20 hear end rhymes (say/day, there/where), internal=20 rhymes (like/like, wants/what=92s). We hear closely=20 matched sounds and rhythms in the second and=20 third lines, similar phrasing breaks in the third=20 and fourth lines, identical syllable counts in=20 the fourth and fifth lines. The poem masterfully=20 builds its verbal music. It exhibits all the=20 hesitancies and insecurities of a Creeley story,=20 yet is so compressed. Because of the compression=20 we see what is present but much less obvious in=20 the stories: the tightly ordered language. If=20 modern life is full of fragments shored against=20 ruins, Creeley=92s language is composed of=20 carefully arranged fragments that barely hold,=20 while showing the impending ruin of annihilation=20 in a void of instability. The flux of living is=20 everywhere in Creeley=92s writing; it can not be=20 understood; all one can do is show the difficulty=20 of finding one=92s place in the midst of it. With=20 language, put a fence around the subject, which=20 is the difficult existence of the self. charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then Chax Press 520-620-1626 (studio) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com chax.org 650 E. 9th St. Tucson, AZ 85705 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:33:59 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Call for writers with bi-polar disorder Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Dear Writers, My colleague Lauren Di Paula is working on her dissertation at the Indiana = University of Pennsylvania. Below are the details. She truly needs all the = support she can get for this project. If anyone is interested, please conta= ct her. Specifics below: For my doctoral dissertation, I'm searching for writers who have bipolar di= sorder in order to learn more about their writing lives. The only requireme= nt for being a "writer" is that writing plays an important role for them. T= he study requires one or two one-hour meetings to talk about writing and il= lness experiences. I will not use any data without the participant's approv= al. I will also delete any information that could identify that individual. Those who are interested or who have questions can contact me at 443.504.9959 or zbbm@iup.edu. Please pass this along to anyone you think may be interested. Thank you. -Lauren Lauren DiPaula PhD Candidate in Composition Studies Indiana University of PA =3D Grand Canyon Tours 10+ years experience touring Grand Canyon in Arizona. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3Dad8e90f6c44aa1f27a006= 153c75c49ec --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:27:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: New blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For your perusal, http://teethmedolores.blogspot.com/ Back story: So, after getting a deal going to NYU's School of Dentistry, I sat calmly in a chair not unlike the Karl Rove's World Dominant Chair. There is no more th in 24th -- that's, "corner of 1 Ave and East 24 to you, meesta" -- according to the new AP style guide. I was unprepared, however, to hear their diagnosis of my mouth: that I would need to return for 39 more visits. Thanks. Yrs., Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:32:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Tonight in Brooklyn @ Pete's Candy In-Reply-To: <007501c80cd6$815adf10$6401a8c0@fugly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bozicevic-Bowling, Starkweather, and Cohen at Pete's Candy Store Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 Time: 7:00pm - 9:00pm Location: Pete's Candy Store Street: 709 Lorimer Street, Williamsburg City/Town: Brooklyn, NY Ana Bozicevic-Bowling is a Croatian poet writing in English & the author of two chapbooks: Morning News (Kitchen Press, 2006) and Document (Octopus Books, 2007). Her recent poems are or will be in Octopus Magazine, The New York Quarterly, the Denver Quarterly, Absent, Saltgrass, In Posse, The Bedside Guide to No Tell Motel - Second Floor and Outside Voices 2008 Anthology of Younger Poets. She coedits RealPoetik and works at PEN American Center in New York City. Sampson Starkweather was born in Pittsboro, NC at a monster truck rally. He edits your children's science textbooks. His poems and essays are recently published or forthcoming from: Octopus, Jubilat, LIT, Tarpaulin Sky, RealPoetik, Absent, Sink Review and other places. His chapbook The Photograph will be available from Horse Less Press in November. He lives in the woods alone. Julia Cohen's chapbook, If Fire, Arrival, is out with horse less press. Her second, Ruby in the Microphone, is releasing with Hangman Books. Here are some of her poems from The Adirondack Review and h_ngm_n . You can find more links to her poems on her blog. She lives in Brooklyn. For directions, go here ---> http://www.petescandystore.com/petes_map.html --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:29:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: El Spontaneo: sponteous bop/"craft" (Simic on Creeley) In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710102150gd3870a3jbd83ed9f8fc337c3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Longest way round is shortest way home," as one learns in James Joyce's Ulysses. And so the discussion has come back to the opposition of the original title--"El Spontaneo/"craft.'" Only now re-formulated in terms of the "process/product" either/or conundrum which seems to endlessly haunt American poetics (which can be a form of "tradition," in itself). On the one hand the spontaneous--which one might say comes from Whitman and Dickinson (and the influence even indirectly of Emerson)--and on the other the "Urn," which fittingly has its origins with the funereal theses of Poe regarding "craft." In his "Philosophy of Composition," Poe is arguing against the Romantic ideal of the spontaneous, divinely inspired poem--and for the uses of a method which depends on deduction. That is--first one determine what is the desired effect the poem is to cause--and then one works backward to determiinng what elements are necessary in order to construct a "machine made of words" (think of all the hoaxing machines in Poe!) which will produce the desired effect. Poe is struggling also with himself in this essay, as, fearing madness, he is working feverishly to demonstrate rationally that he is not mad, not Romantically or Gothically spontaneously inspired by delusions, dreams, delirium tremens, but is simply cooly calculating the construction of a well thought out and crafted "urn." Of course, Poe wrote the poem ("The Raven") that he is describing the calculated method composition of, well before he produced the essay. So the "urn" Poe is writing of is not recollected in tranquility in the poem, but in the essay elaboration of its composition. Which is of course a very well composed piece essaying a demonstration that a poem already written was in fact done by an elaboration of a clearcut method of composition, by a rational force at work moving via deductions to the creation of a perfected--and highly popular--product known for its singular effects. This is a very intersting debate of Poe with himself--because it illuminates the process/product conflicts as one of a matter of the self and public images of the Poet and his lifetsyle, which seems for many to be involved with the differences between what Creeley's poetry "seems" to "represent" in life and that which Simic's form of poetry is "seen" to "represent" as its opposite. "The Raven" seems to be a very "inspired" poem, with all the trappings of the lurid and ominous, all the set design trappings of future Vincent Price vehicles (many of them based on Poe stories and this poem) and Poe's own "Tales of the Grotesque and Arabesque." Yet Poe, in order that he not be seen as the already growing caricature of him as a "madman," a dope and drink fiend, a crazed German-import imitation ("Terror is not of Germany but of the Soul"), deconstructs all this stagey hokum and lays bare the cool, calm, calculated, managed methodology of his "ratiocinating" detective Dupin in "cracking the case" of his own composition. In this manner, the "crazed, spontaneous, drunken" Poe will be revealed to the world as his 'real self," the brilliant creator of word puzzles, brain teasing conundrums and hoaes which he alone can crack open--and in the process, revealing the work as the perfect urn of a beautifully crafted, immaculately solved equation. Poor Poe! Rufus Griswold having charge of the immediate "final word" re Poe, used precisely the features Poe most feared against the "dead" Poet, thus creating the still lasting legend of the poor, insane, drug and gin soaked hack who just happened in his deliriums to have created the modern detective story, various branches of science-fiction, the first "modern" american literary criticism and the philosophical work "Eureka." (Considered by Paul Valery, mathematician and poet, to be among the great achievements of Western thought.) Yet In Poe death itself is never entirely certain--he desires and often writes of a state between death and life--from which the near-dead may of course become spontaneously or by various para-scientific means nearly-alive for their lovers and loved ones. It is this suspended state, or simulations of it, which cause the Freudian "work of mourning" in Poe to be turned into "mournful and never ending remembrance." A remembrance which finds a very cruel shock in the piece "Morning (mourning?) on the Wissihicaon," in which what appears to be an idyllic Eden of the recent American past with wild animals, an Indian, flora and fauna endangered by the urban sprawl still in their wild state, turns out to be the well kept and manicured estate of an Englsihman, a simulation of the "original America," complete with the stocking of tamed animals and the hiring of a servant to dress and Pose as an Indian for the benefit of those who take a tourist trip down the waters of the Wissihicaon and are able to take in this living Panorama in full. At around the same time that Emerson is proclaiming "Nature" as the great resource for the American poet to come, Poe is already seing the coming of the Simulacra, the recreated ,reenacted, replacement of Wildness with a carefully crafted simulation of it. And even more presciently, the owner is no longer in any way American, but a wealthy Englishman, re-colonizing the former Colonies, now the "Land of the Free" via privatized purchase and the reconstruction of an already vanished "America." The "American dream" is already a privately owned outdoor museum along the lines of "Colonial Williamsburg" and service workers are acting the part of "wild American Indians." You will become tourists in your own States of suspension between life and death in a world of simulations of your former Emersonian "original relationship with the universe" is Poe's "mournful and never ending" concept of the "remembrance" by the present and future for its now "virtual" "past." (At least Proust had a madeleine with which to time travel! Something tangible with which to open the "recherce du temps perdu.") In other words, spontaneity has already become something which is simulated, a virtual re-enactment of "Freedom" and "originality" while al the while being in the service of the Private sector. The idea that "spontaneity" is a refusal of "bureacratization" for Poe is already a thing of the past. The function of bureaucracies has become to preserve the free market privatized illusion of Freedom embodied in its simulations. Bureaucracies and institutions in fact become the places in which are preserved and taught the methods of simulating "spontaneity," "freedom," "non-conformity," "radical, innovative" "oppositional" work of "resistance, rupture, transgression" and the like. From this view point, the process/product either/or of the Creeley/Simic opposition becomes much more complex, entering the realms of such things as "processed cheese," "procesed hair," "meat by-products," "a product of the University/School/Institutional system," and the like. The poem of process--is a poem designed to create an effect of process. It sets out to use a methodology which "creates process" as indeed its product. The process=the product and is fetishized just like a commodity. "What you see is what you get." In the end it becomes an object--poem, series, book-- which "sheds light on," or "demonstrates," or "performs" process. The "finished product" approach is designed to create the effect of immediately--rather than more leisurely-- being indeed a "well wrought urn," a product with a "beautiful finish," or a "finsihed product exhibting the skills and craft of the poet." One shows the signs of craft at work, the other conceals it. The opposition of "selected" and "complete collected" works falls into a similar dichotomy of the same coin. On the one hand you have the more "fast food" package of "greatest hits," and on the other the "box set" complete with B-Sides, out takes, side-projects, the rare, the "neglected nuggets," the "overlooked gems," demo tapes and "previously unreleased" materials. The choice depends on how much one has emotionally "invested" in the artist and their work, how much time--and money-- one can "afford to spend" in study and scholarship, "getting as close as possible to the voice" of the poet, musician, film maker, performer. The questions of process/product, selected/complete are questions of investments in "value" and time. How much time are you willing to spend--and how much money?--how much of yourself are you "willing to give?" to "acquire a knowledge" of the poet and the poetry? How mush is it one wants to expend and in what manner on one's own work? How much does one value one's own work as process? and how much as product? Which commodity-form does on fetishize? The question of "value" then opens up the present debate over "values" in a "lifestyle" choice between one of process and one that is product oriented. Or does it? For isn't process in itself a form of product in that that is what one is selling, or buying, investing time and money in? And product an erasure of its production which then enters in to the production process of fetishes, desires, and the like? Each "side" feels that its own is of more "value" than the other's in terms of "quality of life" or "quality of poetry," each side feels "validated" by what they do and how they do it and what the "result" is. In Poe's case his essay attempting to present a rational method for creating a product with a desired effect isn't only to do with his wanting to appear "ultra-sane" rather than being portrayed as "ultra-debauched" and inspired by "demon rum" and other evils, including insanity, but also with a desired economic effect. "The Raven" was a mega super hit, taking off like wildfire and being reprinted all over the US and in England appearing in the obligatory myriad pirated editions. Since there was no copyright at the time protecting American authors, Poe had to go on tour, not to promote the hit, but to be able to get some of the lucre the hit was producing for everyone but himself. The hit promoted his appearances, but didn't do all that much for his own bank account. However, if he could get to the bottom of the method which had produced the hit, rationally reconstruct his process--could he not in turn keep on creating hits, and find ways to better manage their profits coming to him in the future? In short discover the alchemical poetic formula for success? That is, by finding a way to unite process and product under one umbrella (Poe, Inc) could he not become a "hit factory?" And market both his process and his products? And if the market is slow in one aspect, have simultaneously the other to help support oneself? Not to mention his already major activities in the spheres of criticism and reviewing, for which he was badly underpaid? (He was the first American poet to simultaneously gain fame as a critic/reviewer--known to his public as the "tommy hawk man" for his ferocious "hatchet jobs." He also, like reviewers/critics from time immemorial, indulged in "puff pieces" promoting persons he wanted to get some advantages from--money, and, after his wife's death , marriage, status, stability and the rest.) Poe's concern with process and product comes from both these economic concerns and trying to unite what he feared was a cracked mind. His product (the essay) attempts, not to "rediscover" the process by which he was making it, but to INVENT rationalized explanations for what he fears may have been a spontaneous "one hit wonder," the sign of his not being able to literally "depend on" (be dependent on), either process or product. Fearing cracks in the head and the urns of his works, of his life as it appears to others, he literally essays a process of inventing a process of producing a flawless object, a perfect and "golden" urn--or, as Henry James had it, a "Golden Bowl" whose cracks open up the process by which the heroine in the novel of that name develops an art neither of process or product, but of awareness, an art of consciously "seeing" with the cracks, not in spite of them. In the opening pages of the Golden Bowl, set in London, James has the Italian Prince affianced to the American heroine wondering about Poe's "Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym" as a sign that Americans are, indeed, possesed of imagination, because of the veilings and curtains of whiteness through which the giant figure of whiteness (of Outward?) is seen in the vertiginous approach to the South Pole and the "white out" of the Narrative's ending: "March 22 The darkness had materially increased, relieved only by the glare of the water thrown back from the white curtain before us. Many gigantic and pallidly white birds flew continuously now from beyond the veil . . . And now we rushed into the embraces of the cataract, where a chasm threw itself open to receive us. But there arose in our pathway a shrouded human figure, very larger in its proportions than any dweller among men. And the hue of the skin of the figure was of the perfect whiteness of the snow." (A kind of "ghostly" premonition of the White Whale--and an echoing of the mysterious--(exagerated and invented)-- giant statured "Patagonians" who gambol wildly and haunt the pages of 17th and 18th Century travel literature.) This seeming "ending" of the "Narrative" in the whiteness of a final blankness of the page, is followed by the ensuing "Note" which is a series of un/re/veilings of authorship, narration, verisimilitude and fictions, and also presents the interpretations of the figures in the chasms found on/in the all Black inhabited, all Black rock forested island of Tsalal, whose message is: "I have graven it within the hills, and my vengeance within the dust upon the rock." In his great essay "A Sedimentation of the Mind: Earth Projects," Robert Smithson writes: "(Pym) seems to me excellent art criticism and the prototype for rigorous 'non-site' investigations . . . His descriptions of chasms and holes seem to verge on proposals for 'earthwords.' The shapes of the chasms themselves become 'verbal roots' that spell out the differences between darkness and light." The trajectory of Poe, James and Smithson through veilings, curtains, whitenesses and blacknesses, "darkness and light," with sites/sights/sites of rock, water, snow, chasms, and the "non-sites" of their presentations as "prototypes" of "'earthwords'" and "'verbal roots,'" is guided by cracks, chasms, fissues in "the sedimintations of the mind," the golden bowl and Poe's strugglings with process and product, sanity and insanity, poverty and treasure of "The Gold Bug" which has bitten him. For Smithson it is in the cracks that the artist finds opening "the art of looking" in time. This is not a process that is set down, set out upon, as is a poem being written/read in "cultural confinement," nor a product in which the "time of the artist" is imprisoned and sold to the highest bidder as an "art object." "Critics, by focusing on the 'art object." deprive the artist of any existence in the world of both mind and matter . . . . Art, in this sense, is considered 'timeless' or a product of 'no time at all", this becomes a convenient way to exploit the artist out of his rightful claim to his temporal processes . . . . there is only an uncertain disintegrating order which transcends the limits of rational seperations . . . the brain itself resembles an eroded rock from which ideas and ideals leak . . . A great artist can make art by simply casting a glance. A set of glances could be as solid as any thing or place, but the society continues to cheat the artist out of his 'art of looking,' by valuing only 'art objects.' . . . Many would like to forget time altogether, because it conceals 'the death principle' (every authentic artist knows this.)" I think that the dichotomy of process/product Creeley/Simic misses the deeper questions of time and what spontaneity and craft are involved with. One can be after all a professional of spontaneity, and a routine performer of the leap of El Spontaneo, just as one can use craft to create an effect of the spontaneous. Or use spontaneity to create an illusion of craft, of the "well wrought urn." Is the consciousness of working with process any less of a craft than the making of the well wrought urn? Isn't the argument over which is "better for you" or "more worth your while"? And don't both ignore "the uncertain disintegrating order"-- That uncertain disintegrating order of the situation Poe is facing, that the Golden Bowl's crack opens in the consciousness and "art of looking" of the heroine," that the eroded rock brain of Smithson's "sedimentations of the mind" is leaking, is where one finds that "necessity is the motherfucker of invention," and that the "verbal roots" existing in "earthwords" are rhizomatic, in Deleuze and Guattari's formulation, rather than a "tree of knowledge" or "American tree." In this situation, it is the existence of the poet/artist that is cracking open in time to "an art of looking" which "transcends rational separations" such as process/product, which are each ways of valuing the same thing (a poem, a book) is made into/as an object. The process-as-product or the product-that-conceals -the-process take different trains to the same station. One may be more ecologically minded than the other, or more clean, or more "open," but they are both known to be "safe" as made clear by the endless big business of their debates, of they're both being professionally taught, anthologized, analyzed, trumpeted, supported by endowments, chairs, grants to go work elsewhere than one's place of residence and the like. After all, part of the discussion seems to be the need to "produce an answer/contrary opinion/deconstruction-destruction" of Simic's piece for the NYRB. "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war!!" Meanwhile the world of cracks goes on all around one, training grounds "literally" for "the art of looking" found in the rubble that the cracks open of/in/with "the uncertain disintegrating order." In these areas of debris and refuse is to be found the "art of looking" with which to refuse "rational separations" which endlessly lead to wars over the ownership, control of legacies, interpretations, claims, counter claims, ethical-intellectual property and propriety of who is "worthy" of the mantle of the dead and are their rightful heirs and who alone should be allowed to speak in the name of the--Father? the Country? the Mother Tongue? of Language? of Poetry? of Statues & Statutes? The world of Borders Books and Border fences, Walls of gated communities and prisons and whole peoples? Of the institutions of Higher Learning? of Higher Earning or Higher Ideals? of Careers and Professions? Bibles & Bibliographies?----- Thats what one wants to do "in the name of Creeley?" The figure of Robert Creeley i will remember is the Figure of Outward, via a Figure who was this to both of in our ways. In his Autobiography Creeley wrote of one of the most important figures in his life having been Ira Grant, who taught him much more than how to raise chickens while living New Hampshire in the 1940's. Creeley wrote how Ira taught him much that was to be in Creeley's sense of existence and work. A quarter century after Bob's experience, i was an apprentice house painter with Ira, (who had moved permanently to Vermont), whom i had known since age of six. Many lifetimes later, reading the Autobiography, i found this connection. By then Ira was in his nineties, still out walking briskly in all weathers, and my mother would send news of him to pass on to Bob. That a person who taught us each completely different trades having nothing seemingly to do with poetry and yet ever so much of what went into both our work and character, to me that is what I think of with Bob Creeley. The figure of Outward is the unexpected one that one finds literally "out of necessity," not by a seeking process or a craft that creates perfect urns, but by finding and being found by that which is necessary, necessity, and from that encounter with the motherfucker of invention--doing that which one is "given to" doing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:00:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nobel Prizes are not awarded for specific works, as I recall. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:13 AM, Christopher Leland Winks wrote: > Sorry to rain on the parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written > anything of interest (or even quality) in approximately 30 years. > I imagine she's receiving the award for the Martha Quest series, > "The Golden Notebook" and maybe "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." > > And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of > white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan > writers? Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, > who spent most of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What > kind of message does this send? (I think some of us know the > answer to that one.) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Andrews > Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >>> Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News >> >> "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." >> Doris Lessing >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:03:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wole Soyinka, a Nobel Prize Laureate in Literature, 1986 Already 21 years ago. Christopher Leland Winks wrote:Sorry to rain on the parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written anything of interest (or even quality) in approximately 30 years. I imagine she's receiving the award for the Martha Quest series, "The Golden Notebook" and maybe "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan writers? Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, who spent most of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What kind of message does this send? (I think some of us know the answer to that one.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Andrews Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." > Doris Lessing > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:22:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: deadline for pulitzer nominations for books published in second half of this year MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.pulitzer.org/EntryForms/lentformbutton.pdf is monday -- galleys to be submitted for books to be published before december 31 but after Monday -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:19:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Hoerman Subject: Celebration of E. E. Cummings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Celebration of E. E. Cummings* Featured Poets: Charles Coe, Michael Hoerman, Robert K. Johnson, John Sturm *October 21, 2007, 2 p.m. Forsyth Chapel at Forest Hills Cemetery, 95 Forest Hills Ave, Jamaica Plain, MA * Join four Boston poets for our annual celebration of the birthday and legacy of poet E. E. Cummings, whose bold language and playful typography transformed American poetry. Charles Coe, Michael Hoerman, Robert K. Johnson, and John Sturm read from Cummings' poems and their own in tribute to this great American innovator. Sponsored by Forest Hills Educational Trust Info: http://www.foresthillstrust.org/calendar.html -- Michael Hoerman www.michaelhoerman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:35:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sc*m distilled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed [mechanically and hand distilled through various perl programs from one too many offers of quick money; i used vi, plus a program that uses a (writer-supplied) function to 'scan' a text, plus a program for ragged elimination/reorganization. what's odd in the result is the evidence of violence and secrecy throughout.] sc*m distilled the learned confidence can betray accord in of learned plan can of a the accord confidence staff the of betray plan betray meeting plan response mr mr betray await mr nothing await ventured betray gained success success success riches ventured never easy easy easy platter await truth nothing instruction gained religiously note gold platter note wife wife gained children easy without measure measure easy fear truth secure truth send send periodically periodically monitored monitored assess secure level secure quality fear policy fear observe assess contacting through monitored phone phone please please lines nor nor email email email address quality direct quality link contacting between observe initiate email towards through signals initiate conclusion via via channels channels deny deny email knowing conclusion repeat towards knows link fortune towards planted conclusion center knowing blessed planted relevance blessed lets fortune blessing knows give deny positive relevance provide center new knows reward positive well give undertaking planted evaluated evaluated risks risks here reward refusing new alerting give control risks destiny new chances undertaking total wont wont risks passme refusing work refusing life wont man chances opportunity opportunity dynamics dynamics move work such passme ones chances once passme industry lifetime lifetime man cannot dynamics chance move pass ones sums dynamics comparable run let cannot run run whole ones situations run criminal again again st st st hard pass delete message message message forget situations conscience conscience ever destroy destroy career career whole approve again may message people message myself delete consequences career find destroy tidy find project career discard approve vindictive destroy destructive destructive offer myself appeal tidy inform consequences final consequences relating project then vindictive officially destructive closing communicate communicate offer these inform aware inform ahead inform ask closing released relating drawn these straight relating claiming aware involvement these assure these within few few proposal proposal aware place drawn closest involvement upon within receipt assure prepared proposal share few half few proceeds share gone receipt awaiting comes comes comes great place amounts half trying comes track man's spent great man's share investigated awaiting found awaiting interactions file file just just just just just just just == ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:58:34 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT i do agree about the lack of non-white african writers, absolutely. but not that she hasn't written anything worthwhile in the last 30 years. her shikasta series is brilliant. she continues a dedicated politically aware point of view without falling into being pc. i love that, asked why she had started writing fantasy, she answered something like, "look around you." all best, g On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Christopher Leland Winks wrote: > Sorry to rain on the parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written anything > of interest (or even quality) in approximately 30 years. I imagine > she's receiving the award for the Martha Quest series, "The Golden > Notebook" and maybe "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." > > And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of > white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan writers? > Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, who spent most > of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What kind of message does > this send? (I think some of us know the answer to that one.) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Andrews > Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > > > "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." > > Doris Lessing > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:00:40 -0700 Reply-To: linda norton Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: linda norton Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lessing hasn't published anything of interest in the last thirty years? This past summer I read Lessing's *Dairies of Jane Somers*, published in 1984. I found the first of the two books in that volume to be something really unique--a book about old people, especially old women, especially impoverished, lonely old women. There's candor and insight about the body, pride, invisibility, disgust, shit, hunger, shame, and class throughout. I wouldn't think the Nobel Committee or many others, would find poor old women of interest. I'm glad Lessing did. (By the way, Lessing first published these volumes under a pseudonym and in the intro to the edition I read, she talks about the dismissive editorial responses to a manuscript like this seemingly written by a literary "nobody".) -----Original Message----- >From: Stephen Vincent >Sent: Oct 12, 2007 1:03 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > >Wole Soyinka, a Nobel Prize Laureate in Literature, 1986 > Already 21 years ago. > >Christopher Leland Winks wrote:Sorry to rain on the parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written anything of interest (or even quality) in approximately 30 years. I imagine she's receiving the award for the Martha Quest series, "The Golden Notebook" and maybe "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." > >And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan writers? Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, who spent most of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What kind of message does this send? (I think some of us know the answer to that one.) > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim Andrews >Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am >Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >> > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News >> >> "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." >> Doris Lessing >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:23:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: exotic curves MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit am seeking equations of exotic curves. please advise. polar or cartesian. googled 'exotic curves' but, well, you see what i mean. good name for a book of poems. the exotic curves are for dbcinema, curves for brushes to traverse. looking for a web page with pictures and equations. of course google is go ogle. ja http://vispo.com/dbcinema/leftwich http://vispo.com/dbcinema/mondrian-kandinsky/1.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/1.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/2.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/3.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/4.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/5.jpg http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/6.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 08:26:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Poetry Reading This Evening in Cincinnati In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sending this one out on behalf of Dana Ward, editor Cy Press. Cy Press Presents-- Johannes Goransson Noah Eli Gordon Joyelle McSweeney Joshua Marie Wilkinson 8pm Saturday, October 13th @ Publico 1308 Clay St. Cincinnati, OH FREE! Johannes Göransson is the author of the forthcoming books /A New Quarantine Will Take My Place, Pilot (Johann The Carousel Horse)/ and /Dear Ra/. He's the translator of /Remainland: Selected Poems of Aase Berg/ and /Ideals Clearance/ by Finland-Swedish Dadaist Henry Parland. He is currently working on a project focusing on the element of the Gothic in 20th century poetry. http://exoskeleton-johannes.blogspot.com/ http://typomag.com/issue04/goransson.html http://www.coconutpoetry.org/goransson1.htm http://www.octopusmagazine.com/issue08/johannes_goransson.htm Noah Eli Gordon is the author of six books, three of which were published this year: /Novel Pictorial Noise/ (Harper Perennial, 2007; selected by John Ashbery for the National Poetry Series), /Figures for a Darkroom Voice /(Tarpaulin Sky 2007; in collaboration with poet Joshua Marie Wilkinson and artist Noah Saterstrom) and /A Fiddle Pulled from the Throat of a Sparrow /(New Issues 2007). He continues to write a column on chapbooks for /Rain Taxi: Review of Books/ and/ /teaches at the University of Colorado at Denver. http://www.wordforword.info/vol9/Gordon.htm http://www.fascicle.com/issue01/Poets/gordon1.htm http://www.coconutpoetry.org/gordon1.htm http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/gordon_noaheli.html Joyelle McSweeney is the author of /Nylund, the Sarcographer/, a baroque noir from Tarpauln Sky Press, and the upcoming /Flet/, a science fiction from Fence. She is also the author of two books of poetry, /The Red Bird/ and /The Commandrine,/ both from Fence. With Johannes Goransson, she edits Action Books and Action, Yes. She teaches in the MFA program at Notre Dame. http://2ndavepoetry.com/2ndAve_2/mcsweeneymenuv2.html http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Fall05/McSweeney.html http://www.typomag.com/issue01/mcsweeney.html http://www.coconutpoetry.org/mcsweeney1.htm Joshua Marie Wilkinson is the author of three books of poetry, Suspension of a Secret in Abandoned Rooms (Pinball, 2005), /Lug Your Careless Body Out of the Careful Dusk/ (University of Iowa, 2006), which won the 2005 Iowa Poetry Prize, and /Figures for a Darkroom Voice/ (Tarpaulin Sky, 2007) and written collaboratively with Noah Eli Gordon. His fourth book, /The Book of Whispering in the Projection Booth/, is due out in 2009 from Tupelo Press. He lives in Chicago and teaches at Loyola Univetsity. http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Fall05/Wilkinson.html http://www.typomag.com/issue08/wilkinson.html http://www.alicebluereview.org/four/poetry/wilkinson.html http://www.jubilat.org/n13/wilkinson.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:57:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Fully Awake DVD Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed For Ruth and anyone else interested in Fully Awake: Black Mountain College, it is available on DVD for $14.99 at http://www.filmbaby.com/films/2055 We screened it to a full house in Buffalo last night with Cathryn Davis, one of the directors, present. Those looking for a lot of footage of Black Mountain superstars are likely to be disappointed, but those interested in a well-constructed, entertaining and informative 60-minute history of the college, its educational philosophy, and its impact on those that belonged to the community will find just that. Also of note, the filmmakers are not "on the make" on the film scene and want most of all to provide opportunities for people to view the film. If you would like to screen Fully Awake in your town or city, they are very accommodating. Contact info is on the film's website: http://www.ibiblio.org/bmc/bmccontact.html _____________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Suite 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 t. 716.832.5400 f. 716.270.0168 http://www.justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: A Long Continual Argument: The Selected Poems of John Newlove Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Newlove was the best of us, the great line, the hidden agenda, tough as nails and yet somehow with his heart on his sleeve. There was always a double-take involved when reading his work. His lyrics, such as "The Weather" were faultless. I devoured and loved his work. -- Michael Ondaatje The John Newlove selected poems arrives on our doorstep in mere days; if you can't make it to the Ottawa launch (an Edmonton launch + screening in the works for early January; other cities like Vancouver, Calgary + Regina tba), you can order one directly from us by sending $22 + 3$ CANADIAN (or $20 + $3 US) directly to (& payable to): rob mclennan 858 Somerset Street West, main floor Ottawa ON Canada K1R 6R7 after October 25th, mail instead to: rob mclennan, writer in residence Department of English and Film Studies University of Alberta 3-5 Humanities Centre Edmonton, AB T6G 2E5 copies will also be available at this year's ottawa small press book fair on October 27: http://smallpressbookfair.blogspot.com/2007/09/ottawa-small-press-book-fair-fall-2007.html http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2007/09/long-continual-argument-selected-poems.html http://chaudierebooks.blogspot.com/2007/09/life-and-poetry-of-john-newlove.html -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:21:48 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martin Larsen Subject: Re: exotic curves In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wikipedia has a long list of different types of curces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_curves Den 13/10-2007, kl. 9.23, skrev Jim Andrews: > am seeking equations of exotic curves. > please advise. > polar or cartesian. > googled 'exotic curves' but, well, > you see what i mean. > > good name for a book of poems. > > the exotic curves are for dbcinema, > curves for brushes to traverse. > > looking for a web page with pictures and equations. > > of course google is go ogle. > > ja > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/leftwich > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/mondrian-kandinsky/1.jpg > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/1.jpg > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/2.jpg > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/3.jpg > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/4.jpg > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/5.jpg > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/6.jpg > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:32:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: BlazeVOX2k7 Fall now online Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable BlazeVOX 2k7=20 an online journal of voice =20 =20 Fall 2007 http://www.blazevox.org =20 Featuring: Kent Johnson =20 Aleah Sato =20 Alyson Greenfield =20 Clay Matthews =20 David Mclean =20 eddie kilowatt =20 Michael Ogletree =20 ek rzepka =20 Forrest Roth =20 Cherian George Pulinthitta Hugh Fox =20 James Sanders=20 Randall D. Brown =20 rob mclennan =20 Michele F Sweeney =20 Kate Schapira =20 Jason Visconti=20 Jeanpaul Ferro=20 Jeremy Hight =20 Chuck Richardson =20 Ashok Niyogi=20 andrew lundwall =20 Tammy Ho Lai-ming =20 Ray Succre =20 Jonathan Snider =20 Jeffrey Gunderson =20 Burt Kimmelman =20 James Davies =20 Kristen Howe =20 Michael Sikkema =20 Megan A. Volpert =20 =20 BuffaloFOCUS // Christina Wo=B6 Donnelly =20 =20 New eBooks =20 Carrier of the Seed by Jeffrey Side =20 Beams by Adam Fieled =20 Cataclysm 535 by Geoffrey Gatza =20 Enclosures by Jennifer K. Dick =20 Codex Beauty by Thierry Brunet =20 http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org =F6 =20 Fall 2007 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:39:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Questions You Should Never Ask a Writer -1992 Lessing Op-Ed reprinted in New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/13/opinion/13lessing.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:47:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Alice Notley review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In today's Times, at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/books/review/Brouwer-t.html?ref=books, by Joel Brouwer. A pleasure to read. Instructive re: the Simic discussion. Brouwer understands Notley's poems in terms not too dissimilar to Simic's understanding of Creeley post-1975, but what Simic dismisses he makes the focus of his praise. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:57:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: NY Times Lessing article & audio/video MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/pages/arts/index.html?th&emc=th --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:46:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Maybe we should set up an African Academy on par with Nobel. Then said academy can pick from it's continent, and Sweden can pick from theirs! On 10/12/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > i do agree about the lack of non-white african writers, absolutely. but > not that she hasn't written anything worthwhile in the last 30 years. her > shikasta series is brilliant. she continues a dedicated politically aware > point of view without falling into being pc. i love that, asked why she > had started writing fantasy, she answered something like, "look around > you." all best, g > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Christopher Leland Winks wrote: > > > Sorry to rain on the parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written anything > > of interest (or even quality) in approximately 30 years. I imagine > > she's receiving the award for the Martha Quest series, "The Golden > > Notebook" and maybe "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." > > > > And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of > > white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan writers? > > Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, who spent most > > of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What kind of message does > > this send? (I think some of us know the answer to that one.) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jim Andrews > > Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > > > > > "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." > > > Doris Lessing > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 08:50:21 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Sidewalk (anti-war) blogger news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=12284&l=bfaa6&id=654553661 Click photos to enlarge and to read their stories. Sidewalk (anti-war) blog news, 10/12 In which the sidewalk blogger: --put signs and memorials on Kahekili Highway and `Ano`i Road. --posted signs along the Kane`ohe Marine Corps Airstation fence before Saturday morning's air show, featuring the Blue Angels and other agents of destruction (which seem to be practicing in our living room lately). --placed a road memorial at the Pali Highway hairpin turn (up hill side). --put part of an “information series” on the Pali Golf Course fence. --fixed an old sign that has grown a “Love God” sharpie-written phrase on it. Aloha, sms PS If you use the photos, please grab them separately and credit them to the Sidewalk Blogger. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:48:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Trevor Joyce website/reading info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://soundeye.org/trevorjoyce/ Back channel I have been a little besieged by folks wanting to find out more about this Trevor Joyce - who some now warmly call "the rocket from Cork." That (above) is his web page. Which, in addition to links to samples of Trevor's work, has his upcoming East Coast and Canada schedule. Ah, yes, I was a publicist in a former life! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently featuring 'Days of the Dead - Valencia Street". another digital Ghost Walk. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:05:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: BEAST POEM: call for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit BEAST POEM: call for submissions **************************************** "Art is a language, instrument of knowledge, instrument of expression." -- Jean Dubuffet, Anticultural Positions lecture given at the Arts Club of Chicago 12/20/51 I am collecting writing that plays with the idea of the BEAST. This writing may take any shape or form: poem, story, essay, letter, etc. All writing will be used to create a BEAST POEM for the second annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival. http://www.chicagocalling.org On October 26th at 5pm, I will perform BEAST POEM at Jean Dubuffet's sculpture Monument with Standing Beast. This public artwork is located in front of the James R. Thompson Center, 100 W. Randolph Street downtown Chicago. After reading the writing aloud, each piece will be given away to commuters on the trains that run next to the building in the Clark/Lake station. SUBMISSION DEADLINE: *October 24, 2007 SUBMIT: *Send published or unpublished writing. *Choose and send one number: 1-5. *Choose and send one color: blue, brown, green, orange, pink, purple. *All writing will considered for 2008-09 publication. CONTACT: *Email submissions as word attachment with subject BEAST POEM to jkarmin@yahoo.com *Send snail mail submissions to Jennifer Karmin 2652 W.Evergreen, 2R Chicago, IL 60622 CHICAGO CALLING ARTS FESTIVAL: October 24-27, 2007 **************************************************** Chicago-based artists will showcase performances and projects that involve collaborations with artists living in other locations, here in the U.S. and in other countries worldwide. Artists involved with Chicago Calling work in a range of media, including: music, painting, photography, poetry, and dance. Their collaborations will be prepared, improvised, or a combination of both. This festival is a part of Chicago Artists Month, the twelfth annual celebration of Chicago’s vibrant visual art community. http://www.chicagoartistsmonth.org ____________________________________________________________________________________ Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:15:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series at the Bowery Poetry Club MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sponsored by Rattapallax Eliot Katz and Bob Rosenthal on Allen Ginsberg. October 14, 2007, 3:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. Poet Eliot Katz and Bob Rosenthal will give an insightful and personal discussion about Allen Ginsberg and the East Village, where Ginsberg used to reside for many years. Through poems and photos, you will learn how the East Village influenced Ginsberg's work and activism. Special focus on the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church. Edward Hirsch on Federico Garcia Lorca. October 22, 2007, 7:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. Award winning poet Edward Hirsch will discuss Federico Garcia Lorca's pivotal book "Poet in New York" (Poeta en Nueva York) and the young poet's journey through New York City. Edward Hirsch is a poet and critic. He has published six books of poems and won the National Book Critics Circle Award. He has also written four prose books including "How to Read a Poem," a national bestseller. Kevin Fitzpatrick on Dorothy Parker. October 28, 2007, 3:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. Kevin Fitzpatrick on Dorothy Parker and The Algonquin Round Table and the creation of the "New Yorker" magazine. Fitzpatrick is president of the Dorothy Parker Society and author of "A Journey into Dorothy Parker's New York." October is National Humanities Month! This program is educational and fun for students, educators, and poetry lovers. Free and open to the public as part of the Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series. This lecture series features prominent poets and writers discussing historical literary figures and their relationship with key New York City landmarks. More info at www.litwalks.com These program are supported, in part, by public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Litwalks is funded by the New York Council for the Humanities, a state affiliate of the National Endowment for the Humanities and public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the New York Council for the Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities. Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:25:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Machlin Subject: Machlin/Cunningham @ Pegasus, SF 10/16 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Poetry Reading: Dan Machlin & Brent Cunningham Tuesday, October 16, 7:30 pm Pegasus Books Downtown, 2349 Shattuck Avenue, Berkeley Brent Cunningham is the author of Bird and Forest (Ugly Duckling Presse). He was born in Wisconsin and grew up on both coasts. He has an M.A. in English from SUNY-Buffalo. Since 1999 he has worked for Small Press Distribution. His poetry, fiction, plays, and reviews have appeared in Radical Society, Chain, Rain Taxi, Kenning and elsewhere. He is sometimes at work on a novel and a collection of stories. Dan Machlin was born and raised in New York City. His book Dear Body: was just published in September 2007 by Ugly Duckling Presse. He is a graduate of Wesleyan University and the City College M.A. Writing Program where he won the Goodman Poetry Prize and Malinche Prize for Literary Translation. He is also the author of three previous chapbooks of poetry and his poems and reviews have appeared in Fence, The Poetry Project Newsletter, Talisman, Crayon, Soft Targets, and The Brooklyn Rail. Dan is the founding editor and publisher of Futurepoem books. For more information: http://www.uglyducklingpresse.org http://www.pegasusbookstore.com/gpage.html4.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:06:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: exotic curves In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline perhaps the most interesting curve is the Witch of Agnesi, which is a mistranslation of "to turn" and was first written about by the first female mathemetician to write http://mathworld.wolfram.com/WitchofAgnesi.html has an animation you will have more luck looking for "special curves" http://xahlee.org/SpecialPlaneCurves_dir/specialPlaneCurves.html -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:41:03 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: <9778b8630710131146q74ce1930sbae0e85bafc9c9fd@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT which we? or we could bury the nobel committee in requests for african writers. and there are other places in the world too. wonderful writers in the pacific, e.g. g (e-g-g) On Sat, 13 Oct 2007, Ryan Daley wrote: > Maybe we should set up an African Academy on par with Nobel. Then said > academy can pick from it's continent, and Sweden can pick from theirs! > > On 10/12/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > > i do agree about the lack of non-white african writers, absolutely. but > > not that she hasn't written anything worthwhile in the last 30 years. her > > shikasta series is brilliant. she continues a dedicated politically aware > > point of view without falling into being pc. i love that, asked why she > > had started writing fantasy, she answered something like, "look around > > you." all best, g > > > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Christopher Leland Winks wrote: > > > > > Sorry to rain on the parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written anything > > > of interest (or even quality) in approximately 30 years. I imagine > > > she's receiving the award for the Martha Quest series, "The Golden > > > Notebook" and maybe "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." > > > > > > And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of > > > white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan writers? > > > Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, who spent most > > > of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What kind of message does > > > this send? (I think some of us know the answer to that one.) > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Jim Andrews > > > Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am > > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > > > > > > > "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." > > > > Doris Lessing > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:09:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Reversal of syntax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Reversal of syntax -- Peter Ciccariello NEW RELEASE UNCOMMON VISION - The Art of Peter Ciccariello http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ 66 pp. 42 color plates. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Me, I'm not. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline V2lyZWQgbWFnYXppbmUsIHdpdGggUmVkZGl0LCBhcmUgaG9zdGluZyBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSBH cmF2aXR5V2F5IGZvcgpsb3NlcnMgLS0tLS0KCkknbSBpbiB1ciBfX19fX19fLCBfX19fX19pbmcg dXIgX19fX19fX3ouICAtLS0tLSAob24gd2hpY2ggeW91IGNhbgp2b3RlIHVwIG9yIGRvd24gKGlm IHlvdSBsaWtlIHBpZSkpLgoKT2YgY291cnNlLCBteSBlbnRyeTogIkknbSBpbiB1ciBoZWxsLCBr aWxsaW5nIHVyIHRpbWV6LiIgLS0tLS0KcmVxdWlyZXMgdGhlIHllbGxvdyBsaWdodCwgcGx1cyBu byBhcnJvd3MuCgpUaGUgV2lyZWQgRWRpdG9ycywgdGhvc2Ugd29ya2luZyBjbGFzcyBiYXN0YXJk cywgaGFja2VkIGl0OiAiSSdtIGluIHVyCmJhc2UsIGtpbGxpbmcgdXIgZG9vZHouIiAtLS0tLSBs YXVuY2hpbmcgaXQgZm9yIHRoZSDDoCBsYSBtb2RlIDUuCgpUaGUgbGVnZW5kYXJ5LCBvcmlnaW5h bCBzb3VyY2UgdG8gdGhpcyBoYWNrZXIgaW5zdWx0IG1heSBoYXZlIGludm9sdmVkCmEgc3VpY2lk ZSwgYnV0IHdlIGNhbid0IGJlIHN1cmUuCgpPdGhlcndpc2UsIEknbQoKLSBpbiB1ciBldGlvbG9n eSwgYmVmdWRkbGluZyB1ciB0ZWxlb2xvZ2llei4KLSBpbiB1ciBsb3ZlLCBnYXRoZXJpbmcgdXIg YXNoZXouCi0gaW4gdXIgZWdvLCB0aGlua2luZyB1ciB0aGUgc2Nobml6ei4KLSBpbiB1ciBpbnN1 bHQgY29udGVzdCwgcGVycGV0dWF0aW5nIHVyIHRvcnR1cmV6LgoKSmVzc2UgQ3JvY2tldHQKCmh0 dHA6Ly9kZW5hY2h0LmJsb2dzcG90LmNvbQo= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:32:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: luxuryserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In my humble opinion, Readings at Bossco's should beget their own listserv. Which percentage of POETICS readership resides in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, New York, New York, Legacies 'R Us? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:33:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Of course we could. It would be wonderful to see an institution represent all people. On 10/13/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > which we? or we could bury the nobel committee in requests for african > writers. and there are other places in the world too. wonderful writers > in the pacific, e.g. g (e-g-g) > > > On Sat, 13 Oct 2007, Ryan Daley wrote: > > > Maybe we should set up an African Academy on par with Nobel. Then said > > academy can pick from it's continent, and Sweden can pick from theirs! > > > > On 10/12/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > > > > i do agree about the lack of non-white african writers, > absolutely. but > > > not that she hasn't written anything worthwhile in the last 30 > years. her > > > shikasta series is brilliant. she continues a dedicated politically > aware > > > point of view without falling into being pc. i love that, asked why > she > > > had started writing fantasy, she answered something like, "look around > > > you." all best, g > > > > > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Christopher Leland Winks wrote: > > > > > > > Sorry to rain on the parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written > anything > > > > of interest (or even quality) in approximately 30 years. I imagine > > > > she's receiving the award for the Martha Quest series, "The Golden > > > > Notebook" and maybe "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." > > > > > > > > And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of > > > > white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan writers? > > > > Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, who spent > most > > > > of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What kind of message > does > > > > this send? (I think some of us know the answer to that one.) > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Jim Andrews > > > > Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am > > > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > > > > > > > > > "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." > > > > > Doris Lessing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:47:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: more on trevor joyce Comments: To: steph484@PACBELL.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline In an event organized by Justin Katko & Mairead Byrne Funded by Rhode Island School of Design & hosted by Brown University Trevor Joyce & Mairead Byrne McCormack Family Theater Fones Alley (between Prospect & Brown, Angell & Waterman) Wednesday October 24th 7pm Admission free (thanks Stephen!) Mair=C3=A9ad Byrne Associate Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design 2 College Street Providence, RI 02903 >>> Stephen Vincent 10/13/07 3:48 PM >>> http://soundeye.org/trevorjoyce/ =20 Back channel I have been a little besieged by folks wanting to find out = more about this Trevor Joyce - who some now warmly call "the rocket from = Cork." =20 That (above) is his web page. Which, in addition to links to samples of = Trevor's work, has his upcoming East Coast and Canada schedule.=20 =20 Ah, yes, I was a publicist in a former life!=20 =20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently featuring 'Days of the Dead - Valencia Street". another digital Ghost Walk.=20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 00:52:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the avatartist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the avatartist the avatartist do not know where they are gathering. to be sure, they are gathering in the true world, there is much talking among them which is a murmuring to ourselves and sometimes there are phonemes as if there are words for others. whispering words for others is gifting which we do not do very often, sometimes we will write them letters from which they may choose to find words or meanings of words, we do not know, we are in the way gathering. the avatartist have autonomic systems. they move without thinking now we move. they move from an interior they do not know. they feel the interior. the avatartist are feeling a gathering or party. they murmur without thinking. they know they have root-body. sometimes they are near their root-body, sometimes within. sometimes they disappear to themselves. they can return to their root-body. an avatartist feels the wind blow through. the avatartist know the whole world is the true world. they see beneath things and see within things. they know closed manifolds are broken. they know the aggregates of forms and materials, aggregates of words and sense impressions. they know powers and gods are gatherings of broken manifolds, that all manifolds are broken. they understand relation and dependent co- origination, that cause-effect are mute. they suffer the world and the suffering of the world. the avatartist produce by existence, beings/s and being/s merge, meld, enumerate and efface through root-bodies, protocols, cosmological struc- tures. they filter screens and screenings. they know being and beings are always filters. they know the avatartist are filters that create filters. they know the disappearing-disappearance within oneselves. the avatartist are of no mode, no moment, no movement, no stasis, they are of no style, no medium, no aggregation, no one or many of six senses, no senses. the avatartist are filtering and gathering, and releasing filter- ing, and collocating gathering. the avatartist are open sets that are open and closed and the very finest of discrete topologies transforming and filtering gatherings and gathering filterings. the avatartist are all space, all time, visible, invisible, transparent, translucent, of here and there opaque, they murmur we are all avatartist, are of saying nothing, whispering nothing, murmuring nothing, all in the true world. the avatartist are writing this, us, them, there, here, now, then, they are writing this-us-them-there-here-now-then, they are writing and writing, they are writing nothing. whispering words for others is gifting which we do not do very often, sometimes we will write them let- ters from which they may choose to find words or meanings of words, we do not know, we are in the way gathering. we are gathering, we are not in the way, we are the way, we are, gathering and filtering. gathering and filtering we are the avatartist, filtering and gathering. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 22:14:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: exotic curves In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > perhaps the most interesting curve is the Witch of Agnesi, which is a > mistranslation of "to turn" and was first written about by the first > female mathemetician to write Thanks very much, Catherine. Yes, that's a good one. Agnesi is apparently the first to have mathematical writing survive which was known to be written by a woman. I remember reading that the Pythagorean brotherhood of Greece admitted women on an equal basis. Then why was it called a brotherhood? Anyway, it seems highly likely to me there were other women writing mathematics earlier than Agnesi in 1748. But it seems none earlier has survived, unless there was a George Elliot or, like Archimedes's manuscript 'On Method', such a document may be found as a palimpsest. Evatosthenes? By the way, Marko Niemi has sent me a family of exotic curves also. The 'rose curves' of r=cos(k*theta). These types of curves are especially useful because the shape of the curve remains on screen for all values of theta. I see that the wolfram site is, of course, a great source for such information; thanks again. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 08:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: PhillySound on PENNSOUND: Frank Sherlock and CAConrad )))( new recordings )((( MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline These new recordings produced by the amazing Michael Hennessey are up and ready to be heard! Links at PhillySound: http://PhillySound.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 08:24:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Laura Ulewicz 1930 - 2007 Comments: cc: UK POETRY , poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Laura Ulewicz Detroit,Michigan, May 1930 - Locke, California, October 2007 Within One Temperate Zone (2) It wasn't on the map. heat stalled the car At the valley or base of the 10th hill. Lost. A post office side the town of San Sinduda. Not On the map. I asked Carl, "Who do you suppose has ever climbed that hill?" In a thousand Years maybe one Indian. A ranch-hand After cattle. A bull after a cow. Two boys in black jeans leaned against a log fence Playing a pocket radio and cursing Loud to beat the vastness down. A matter Of will and hot jazz. I said, "It's pretty Tame here" - being, of course, wrong. I might Have meant "too wild with people". And so we climbed, Until the car should cool, more to escape Noise than to discover. That seconded The wrong. Yet, pausing for breath on the ascent, Carl told me how on his mother's grave in Concord, While drunk, he first made love to another man. In Concord - where the hills are monumented With Hawthorne, Melville, Walden Pond, and our first Revolution for severance - the fought one. Now we looked eastward across a namelessness Of hills. For beyond this one was another equal In size, and beyond it another, until Our minds, wanting to fix, were trapped in freedom. Often I dream I open a hundred doors And behind each door there is only another door. Laura Ulewicz from The Inheritance, Turret Books, London, 1967 For more on Laura, http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:10:39 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: Monty Reid's Disappointment Island wins the Lampman-Scott! Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Announced last night: Monty Reid's Disappointment Island wins the Lampman-Scott Award, sponsored by Arc magazine; Widely published as a poet and essayist, Monty Reid has produced a substantial volume of literary work. His volumes include The Life of Riley (Saskatoon SK: Thistledown Press, 1981), These Lawns (Red Deer AB: Red Deer College Press, 1990), The Alternate Guide (Red Deer College Press, 1995), Dog Sleeps (Edmonton AB: NeWest Press, 1993) and Flat Side (Red Deer College Press, 1998), a collection of new and selected poems, Crawlspace (Toronto ON: House of Anansi, 1993), and the chapbooks cuba A book (Ottawa ON: above/ground press, 2005) and Sweetheart of Mine (Toronto ON: BookThug, 2006). His work is also included in the anthology Decalogue: ten Ottawa poets, published as part of the first season of books by Chaudiere Books. He has won the Stephan G. Stephansson Award for Poetry three times and is also a three-time Governor General's Award nominee. He spent nearly twenty years working at the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Palaeontology in Drumheller, Alberta, in the heart of the Alberta badlands, before moving to the Ottawa area in 1999 to work at the Canadian Museum of Nature. Disappointment Island was also short-listed for the Ottawa Book Award. link to the award: http://www.arcpoetry.ca/mag/contests/lampmanscott_award.php link to the book: http://www.chaudierebooks.com/disappointment.html for an interview with Monty Reid, a review copy or to order a copy (available in better bookstores, including Audrey's Books in Edmonton and Collected Works + Mother Tongue + Exile Infoshop in Ottawa), email the publisher, rob mclennan, at az421@freenet.carleton.ca Congrats Monty! His publisher is hoping that a drink for said publisher is part of that $1,500.00 cash prize... -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:32:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: exotic curves In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline well, Hypatia as an editor / populizer of conic sections; Mme du Chatelet as a translator and textbook author, but it isn't original math -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:49:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: more on trevor joyce In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline report from soundeye west, anyone? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:29:54 -0400 Reply-To: waldreid@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: waldreid@EARTHLINK.NET Subject: check out the new MIPOesias Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my long poem "wonderbender" is just up there now in the good company of many fine pieces---some from folks on this list. www.mipoesias.com thanks. diane wald ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:34:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project October 2007 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, Mercury is in retrograde but that won=B9t stop us. These are the events for the coming week. Yours truly, The Poetry Project Monday, October 15, 8 PM Sabrina Calle, Sara Marcus & Bethany Spiers Sabrina Calle's work can be seen in Small Town, Bombay Gin, String of Small Machines and Dutemesence Press. Her chapbook, The Gilles Poem: 2006 Winter Collection, was released by Transmission Press. Her work has been shown at High Energy Constructs Gallery in Los Angeles (in a group exhibition of poetry/literature/language and the visual/media arts. Sara Marcus's writing appears in Encyclopedia, Tantalum, the Advocate, and Heeb, where she is als= o Politics Editor; and is forthcoming in EOAGH and in a collaborative chapboo= k with visual artist Tara Jane Oneil. She is working on a book about punk roc= k and feminism, curates the series QT: Queer Readings at Dixon Place, and is = a member of the folk-rock band Luxton Lake. Bethany Spiers=B9 chapbooks, Pretty Lou (Black Lodge Press) and empty birdhouse afternoon (Small Anchor Press) are due out this fall. Previous work can be found in the tiny, Write or Die= , and Beyond Polarities. Her first album, Apparitions, was released under the moniker, The Feverfew, in 2004 by Eyeball Records. Its follow-up, The Owl and the Mirror, is currently in pre-production. Wednesday, October 17, 8PM Cathy Park Hong & Mark McMorris Cathy Park Hong's second book, Dance Dance Revolution, was chosen for the Barnard Women Poets Prize. Her first book, Translating Mo'um, was published in 2002 by Hanging Loose Press. She is the recipient of a Fulbright Fellowship, a National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship, and a New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowship. She has written articles and reviews fo= r The Village Voice, The Guardian, and Salon. Currently, she teaches at Sarah Lawrence College. Mark McMorris is a poet and critic who was born in Jamaica. He has been writer in residence at Brown University, and Roberta C= . Holloway Visiting Professor in Poetry at the University of California, Berkeley. His books include The Blaze of the Poui, a finalist for the Lenor= e Marshall Prize; and The Black Reeds, winner of the Contemporary Poetry Series prize from the University of Georgia Press. The Caf=E9 at Light, a tex= t of lyric dialogue, appeared in 2004 from Roof Books. He is currently an associate professor of English at Georgetown University, in Washington, DC. Friday, October 19, 10 PM the tiny - Issue 3 Release Party Come out and celebrate the recent release of the third issue of the annual print poetry journal the tiny, featuring readings by Nick Piombino, Anthony Hawley, Kristi Maxwell, Andrea Baker and Will Edmiston. Music by Field Notes. The tiny is based out of Brooklyn and is edited by Gina Myers and Gabriella Torres. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:40:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: more on trevor joyce Comments: To: c.a.b.daly@GMAIL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I hope to do a report soon for British + irish Poets; someone else might = like to do one here. It was great though -- intense! Mairead >>> Catherine Daly 10/14/07 3:49 PM >>> report from soundeye west, anyone? --=20 All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:40:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: reading in San Francisco: 1 translator, 1 editor, 1 cultural activist, 3 poets, and 4 books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jen Hofer, Patrick F. Durgin, Dolores Dorantes /1 translator, 1 editor, 1 cultural activist, 3 poets, and 4 books/ / / Friday, October 26 7:30 Touching on issues of linguistic, cultural, aesthetic, and political translation and transposition, these three authors will read from their recent books: /Hannah Weiner's Open House/ edited by Durgin; /sexoPUROsexoVELOZ/ and /Septiembre/ by Dorantes; and /The Route/ by Durgin and Hofer. Modern Times is now donating 10% of the total sales on all events books to community organizations For a complete listing of events visit us online at moderntimesbookstore.com MODERN TIMES IS WHEELCHAIR ACCESSIBLE. FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC Modern Times Bookstore 888 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 Ph: 415-282-9246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 02:45:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: connection went away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed connection went away To: avatartist@avatartist sh-3.2$ m avatartist sh: m: command not found mail mail: pine [1;25r [1;1Havatartist [7m PINE 4.58 MAIN MENU Folder: (CLOSED) No Messages [2;1Havatartist [3;1Havatartist [4;1Havatartist [5;1Havatartist [6;1Havatartist [7;1Havatartist [8;1Havatartist [9;1Havatartist [10;1Havatartist [11;1Havatartist [12;1Havatartist [13;1Havatartist [14;1Havatartist [15;1Havatartist [16;1Havatartist [17;1Havatartist [18;1Havatartist [19;1Havatartist [20;1Havatartist [21;1Havatartist [22;1Havatartist [24;1Havatartist [25;1Havatartist [7m? 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[23;15Havatartist [Yes] [7m^C [23;15HYes [23;27H[Sending | |] [23;6H[Error sending: SMTP greeting failure: 421 connection went away!] avatartist@avatartist Azure [4;11Hl l@avatartist Rich [23;15HNo [23;31Havatartist [7m[ Sent ] connection went away maybe it wasn't there at all maybe it was locked down on a machine maybe it was in avatartist head sheave-body maybe it was going to come back now because avatartist said this it won't come back we're sure it won't come back we're really sure ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:23:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: International Media Poetry contest MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT From Jean-Pierre Balpe Director BIPVAL (Biennale Internationale des Poètes en Val-de-Marne) For its tenth edition (May 2009), the International Poetry Biennial is pleased to announce an International Media Poetry Contest. Works considered "media poetry" are those that place contemporary technologies at the service of poetry, be it within the framework of a performance or in that of a recorded and projectable work. Among the many forms accepted are included videopoetry, digital poetry, multimedia poetry, sound poetry, interactive poetry, and poetic installations in physical space or on the Internet. Works that illustrate a poem will not be considered (these are works that use sound or images to represent or complement a poem, for example). There are no restrictions regarding the form or content of the media poems submitted. Work presented shall not exceed 15 minutes and can be presented in the form CD, DVD, or on the Internet. Application: Candidates willing to submit their work to the International of Media Poetry Contest shall express their intention via email before December 31st, 2007. To do so they shall write an email to: direction@biennaledespoetes.fr The works submitted shall arrive at the Poetry Biennial's office (11 rue Ferdinand Roussel 94200 Ivry-sur-Seine France) before December 31st, 2008. If the work is online, the Internet address shall arrive via email before this date. A jury made up of eleven international artists (see list below) will examine the works and will allot the Media Poetry Prize 2009. The prize will be given to the winner during a special ceremony to be realized during the Poetry Biennial. The prize winner will choose between being invited to Paris for one week with all expenses paid during the Poetry Biennial or the equivalent amount in cash. Participation in the contest automatically authorizes the Biennial to publicly exhibit submitted works. Unless otherwise specified, the copyright of the works remains with the artists. Jurors: 1. Baboni-Schilingi Iacopo 2. Beiguelman Giselle 3. Benayoun Maurice 4. Cayley John 5. Chatonsky Grégory 6. Chevalier Miguel 7. Dumond Frédéric 8. Giraudon Liliane 9. Jaffrennou Michel 10. Kac Eduardo 11. Piringer Joerg ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:30:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Margaret Konkol Subject: Jim Maynard Lecture Thursday October 18 : "Small Press in the Archive" Lecture Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please join us this Thursday, October 18th for "From Ritual to Experiment: Robert Duncan and the Experimental Review," a lecture by Dr. Jim Maynard. This talk will take place at 1pm in The Poetry Collection, 420 Capen. _The Small Press in the Archive Lecture Series_ dedicates itself to the study of poetry outside the traditional literary historical plot. The lectures in this series draw on materials in The Poetry Collection, at SUNY Buffalo in order to explore community/discourse formations, the status of ephemera and the making of genre, the conditions of literary production, transatlantic cross-pollinations in and between specific magazines, the careers of poets, the role of book art, and how the little magazine functions in the making of the avant-garde. This event is funded by the Mildred Lockwood Lacey Fund for Poetry/The Poetry Collection and is free and open to the public. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:04:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: NPF Conference on the 1970s Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The National Poetry Foundation takes pleasure in announcing the next in our sequence of "decades" conferences, to be devoted to the poetry of the 1970s, American and international, and to be held from Wednesday to Sunday, June 11-15, 2008, on the flagship campus of the University of Maine System in Orono, Maine. The NPF welcomes paper and panel proposals on any and all aspects of poetic practice in the tumultuous decade of the 1970s. What emerged? What suffered eclipse? What happened just out of frame? What connections brought poetry into dialog with other fields? What social and political contexts mattered most? What of the present can be traced back to that moment? What poets, poetic formations, tendencies in poetics warrant our continued attention? What accidents of reception might we now revisit and perhaps repair? As with previous NPF conferences, the scholarly presentation and panels will be amply supplemented by a variety of poetry readings, including plenary readings by notable figures associated with the decade being explored. An exhibition of visual works is also planned. Paper proposals consisting of a title and a brief (250-500 word) abstract should be directed to Steve Evans either by e-mail (Steven dot Evans at Maine dot Edu) or by regular mail (see address below). Panel proposals should include, in addition, a brief rationale for the envisioned grouping. The deadline for submission of proposals is February 15, 2008. More information about the Conference, including a list of keynote speakers, registration costs, and suggestions for travel and accommodations, will be available on-line at the NPF's new website, currently in "beta" here http://www.nationalpoetryfoundation.org/. We hope to see you in Orono this June! Steve Evans, for the NPF * Associate Professor of English Graduate Studies Coordinator New Writing Series Coordinator 313 Neville Hall University of Maine Orono, ME 04469-5752 207-581-3818 www.thirdfactory.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:06:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: AIM Leader Vernon Bellecourt Dies at 75 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Vernon Bellecourt--an inspiration & example whose spirit will live always in the struggles of indigenous peoples world wide. (on a recent democracynow, the President of Bolivia, the first indigenous person elected to head a Sate, noted that the international act of recognition of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples helped make his election a reality. He also noted that four countries voted against these recognitions of rights-- the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. When the 14th Amendment was passed into Law in the USA, it excluded American Indians from the recognition of Equal Rights. This has influenced American Foreign policy worldwide, always supporting settlers, colonists, repressive regimes against indigenous peoples. http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=104&sid=1267484 --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:34:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nathaniel Siegel Subject: reminder Gay Poets Reading Tues Oct 16 at Leslie Lohman Gay Art Foundation SOHO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends: Hi ! On Tuesday Evening October 16th from 7pm to 9pm you are invited to "COME HEAR !" Gay Poets Read Their Own Work. Hosted by Nathaniel Siegel & Regie Cabico with poets Guillermo Castro, Edward Field, John Giorno, Bill Kushner, Joseph Legaspi, Douglas A. Martin, Michael Montlack, Moonshine Shorey, Rob Stuart and Richard Tayson. At The Leslie Lohman Gay Art Foundation located at 26 Wooster Street between Grand & Canal NYC Phone 1 212 431-2609 _www.leslielohman.org_ (http://www.leslielohman.org) . COME HEAR ! is underwritten by a generous grant from the John Burton Harter Charitable Trust. A limited edition chapbook of the poets work will be available for purchase at the event. Looking forward to seeing you at this LGBTQ friendly reading ! ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:35:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: NPF Conference on the 1970s Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The National Poetry Foundation takes pleasure in announcing the next in our sequence of "decades" conferences, to be devoted to the poetry of the 1970s, American and international, and to be held from Wednesday to Sunday, June 11-15, 2008, on the flagship campus of the University of Maine System in Orono, Maine. The NPF welcomes paper and panel proposals on any and all aspects of poetic practice in the tumultuous decade of the 1970s. What emerged? What suffered eclipse? What happened just out of frame? What connections brought poetry into dialog with other fields? What social and political contexts mattered most? What of the present can be traced back to that moment? What poets, poetic formations, tendencies in poetics warrant our continued attention? What accidents of reception might we now revisit and perhaps repair? As with previous NPF conferences, the scholarly presentations and panels will be amply supplemented by a variety of poetry readings, including plenary readings by notable figures associated with the decade being explored. An exhibition of visual works is also planned. Paper proposals consisting of a title and a brief (250-500 word) abstract should be directed to Steve Evans either by e-mail (Steven dot Evans at Maine dot Edu) or by regular mail (see address below). Panel proposals should include, in addition, a brief rationale for the envisioned grouping. The deadline for submission of proposals is February 15, 2008. More information about the Conference, including a list of keynote speakers, registration costs, and suggestions for travel and accommodations, will be available on-line at the NPF's new website, currently in "beta" here http://www.nationalpoetryfoundation.org/. We hope to see you in Orono this June! Steve Evans, for the NPF * Associate Professor of English Graduate Studies Coordinator New Writing Series Coordinator 313 Neville Hall University of Maine Orono, ME 04469-5752 207-581-3818 www.thirdfactory.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:46:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News In-Reply-To: <905099.22296.qm@web82615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course there was Soyinka -- however, he is increasingly a token presence on the list of Nobel laureates. And there is/was Naguib Mahfouz. But still... And I know that Nobel Prizes are ostensibly awarded for "bodies of work." Yet there are always signature works that stand out in importance -- Nelly Sachs's "O the Chimneys" and Gabriel Garcia Marquez's "One Hundred Years of Solitude," to mention a couple of examples. And in Doris Lessing's case, "The Golden Notebook" is rightfully being cited as such an exemplary work. ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Vincent Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Wole Soyinka, a Nobel Prize Laureate in Literature, 1986 > Already 21 years ago. > > Christopher Leland Winks wrote:Sorry to rain on the > parade here -- but Lessing hasn't written anything of interest (or > even quality) in approximately 30 years. I imagine she's receiving the > award for the Martha Quest series, "The Golden Notebook" and maybe > "Briefing for a Descent into Hell." > > And what's the Nobel Committee doing awarding prizes to an array of > white writers from Africa and leaving out Black sub-Saharan writers? > Gordimer and Coetzee from South Africa, and now Lessing, who spent > most of her early life in what is now Zimbabwe. What kind of message > does this send? (I think some of us know the answer to that one.) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Andrews > Date: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:39 am > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > Subject: Re: Lessing wins Nobel literature prize - Yahoo! News > > > > "Love is the delicate but total acknowledgement of what is." > > Doris Lessing > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:35:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: If you are sexy and you know it (free ads on MiPoesias Magazine) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: MiPOesias Magazine Date: Oct 14, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: If you are sexy and you know it (free ads on MiPoesias Magazine) Hello - We are in the process of laying out the issue for December's MiPOesias and I am extending the opportunity to advertise your latest book, blog, web site or what have yous. This is what I need: A high resolution photo of yourself (think Vogue). A tag line/or blurb for your web site, journal, blog, magazine, or yourself. A graphic of your logo (if you have one). A web site URL for the blog, magazine/journal, book and/or an address of where the book may be purchased, etc. We are putting the ads together at our end. Do not send me a ready made ad. I am not interested. These are going to be two page spreads advertising yourself, blog, web site, magazine, etc. Deadline - Friday, October 19th. No exceptions. All ads are at my discretion. These are free ads on MiPOesias Magazine. Ads selected will appear in the December issue of MiPOesias Magazine and will be available on the web and in print. Please spread the word. Thank you, Didi Menendez Publisher MiPOesias Magazine www.mipoesias.com -- Reviews - Yay! * http://reviews.coldfrontmag.com/2007/06/im_the_man_who_.html * http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc43.pdf * http://nickpiombino.blogspot.com/2007_03_18_archive.html * http://galatearesurrection6.blogspot.com/2007/05/im-man-who-loves-you-by-amy-king.html * http://adamfieled.blogspot.com/2007/05/book-review-amy-king-antidote-for-alibi.html Interviews - Yay! * http://wearduringorangealert.blogspot.com/2007/07/writers-corner_12.html * http://www.curvemag.com/Detailed/731.html * http://www.loc.gov/poetry/poetpoem.html ~ http://www.amyking.org/blog --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:43:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Steal this book Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed (even better than giving them away...) Great news! They're stealing our books! FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- language books this year. "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- seller lists," Hanssen added. The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, featured among the mainly German titles on the list. More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:10:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 10.15.07-10.21.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 10.15.07-10.21.07 BABEL Tickets for individual Babel events are on sale now. They cost =2425 per e= vent. Season Subscription: =2475 (SAVE =2425). TICKETS ARE GOING FAST=21=21=21 We have already sold 65% by subscription. November 8 Orhan Pamuk, Turkey, Winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize Book groups (minimum three people) can subscribe at a special rate of =2460= per person for the whole season. SUBSCRIBE TODAY or PURCHASE individual ti= ckets at http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel or by calling 832-5400. Book grou= p subscriptions by phone only. ________________________________________________________________ EVENTS Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. 10.17.07 Earth's Daughters Collective's Gray Hair Reading Series Judith Kerman and Mick Cochrane Poetry & Fiction Reading Wednesday, October 17, 7:30 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema at The Church, 341 Delaware 10.18.07 Jewish Community Book Fair Dr. Howard Wolf Reading and signing for: FAR-AWAY PLACES: LESSONS IN EXILE Thursday, October 18 10:30 am Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 Admission includes =22High Tea=22 reception and a raffle for manicures/pedi= cures & new/reNEW at Impact Artist Gallery Jorge Guitart and Eric Beeny Poetry Reading Thursday, October 18, 7 p.m. Impact Artists' Gallery, Tri-Main Center, Suite 545 (at Tupper) & Talking Leaves...Books Rishi Reddi Reading/Signing for Karma and Other Stories Thursday, October 18, 7 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. & Jewish Community Book Fair Michael Wex Reading and Signing for: BORN TO KVETCH: Yiddish Language and Culture in All of its Moods and JUST SAY NU: Fluent Yiddish in One Little Word Thursday, October 18 7:30 pm Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 Admission includes =22High Tea=22 reception and a raffle for manicures/pedi= cures 10.19.07 Talking Leaves...Books/Slipstream Magazine Douglas Goetsch and Elizabeth Sachs Poetry and Fiction Reading Friday, October 19, 7 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. & Poetics Plus at UB Timothy Donnelly & Siobhan Scarry Poetry Reading Friday, October 19, 7:30 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema at The Church 341 Delaware (=40 Tupper) 10.20.07 Talking Leaves...Books Barbara Falk, Children's Book Author Reading/Signing for Gardener's Pig Saturday, October 20, 2 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, 951 Elmwood Avenue 10.21.07 Just Buffalo Open Reading Featured: Ken Feltges Sunday, October 21, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St., Buffalo 10 slots for open readers. All readers welcome=21 _________________________= _______________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:41:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: New Work Up at MiPOesias In-Reply-To: <6FEA9B27-D1CA-4EFA-AD00-8134790E9720@justbuffalo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MiPOesias presents Kazim Ali http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/ali_kazim.htm Bill Cassidy http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/cassidy_bill.htm Maxine Chernoff http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/chernoff_maxine.htm Paul Hoover http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/hoover_paul.htm Jim Knowles http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/knowles_jim_review1.htm Danielle Pafunda http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/pafunda_danielle.htm Stephanie Strickland http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/strickland_stephanie.htm Diane Wald http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/wald_diane.htm Enjoy! Amy King Editor MiPOesias http://www.mipoesias.com/ --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:29:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <443336E0-6D44-4527-A5CE-E08854E1438C@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than giving them away...) Great news! They're stealing our books! FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- language books this year. "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- seller lists," Hanssen added. The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, featured among the mainly German titles on the list. More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:58:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: **Last Call: Advertise in Boog City 45** Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please forward ----------------------- Last Call to Advertise in Boog City 45 Featuring: --A dialogue between Poetry Project directors past and present, Anne Waldman and Stacy Szymaszek, on running a nonprofit, the East Village, politics, poetry, and more. --d.a. levy at 65 pull-out section, in conjunction with a 65th birthday celebration we've organized for Mon. Oct. 29 with The Poetry Project (http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php). Section has an essay by Christina Strong, excerpts from Gary Sullivan's in-progress levy comic, reviews by Strong and Sullivan, and work from levy. and more *Deadline --Wed. Oct. 17-Ad copy to editor --Sat. Oct. 20-Issue to be distributed Email to reserve ad space ASAP We have 2,250 copies distributed and available free throughout Manhattan's East Village, and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, Brooklyn. ----- Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $60 to $30. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:28:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Tibetan Writers' Collective - Update In-Reply-To: <232847.9504.qm@web83310.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All: Thanks again to those of you who have donated books for the Tibetan Writers’ Collective, a project providing Tibetan writers in exile with both resources to promote the extension of voice access to information. This time I’d like to provide you with a little bit of background info on McLeod Ganj. McLeod is located in the Himalayan foothills in the north-western Indian state of Himachal Pradesh. A town of about 2,000, McLeod is comprised of Indians and Tibetans as well as rugged travelers passing through. It is also the official residence of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the seat of the Tibetan Government in exile. Every year hundreds of Tibetans cross the Indian border from China in order to live in freedom and have a better life. Many of them are children and young adults whose parents send them to India to learn how to read and write Tibetan and learn about Tibetan culture. After arrival, they’re usually put through schooling and from that point on they move on in various directions and varying degrees of success. Some stay in McLeod, some move to other parts of India and a handful are able to emigrate. During the past two years that I have been visiting McLeod Ganj, I have met a number of talented individuals who work on art and creative projects. I have realized that one way to support them would be to provide them with information and practical resources so that the chances of them being heard are increased. The Tibetan Writers’ Collective is one way to do so. I have acquired books (in part, byway of the generosity of members of this list) and computers for the Collective. Additionally, I’ve asked Kathup Tsering, a young Tibetan writer and member of PEN, to assist in its operation. My next visit has been scheduled for early 2008 and during this time I will be setting up the library and workshop space. While my return was originally scheduled for March, it has been decided that I will be returning in February. If any of you would like to donate books, magazines or any other reading material, please send these to (or backchannel for additional information): Alexander Jorgensen c/o Santanu Bandyopadhyay Central Govt. Quarters, Block D-1, Flat 109 16/7 Dover Lane, Kolkata 700029, India Additionally, more information on the area can be found at: www.dharamsalanet.com www.mcleodganj.com www.lobsangwangyal.com All the best, Alexander Jorgensen -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:06:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Oakland reading this Sunday: DEMOSTHENES AGRAFIOTIS, DOLORES DORANTES, & film by KATIE EDMONDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 7 pm Sunday October 21 at 2 1 G R A N D 416 25th Street @ Broadway Oakland $5 DEMOSTHENES AGRAFIOTIS is active in the fields of poetry/painting/photography/intermedia and their interactions, with numerous books of poetry and essays and exhibitions of visual art both in Greece and abroad. His anthology-formatted magazine 'Clinamen' (1980-90), co-published by Erato Publications in Athens (1991-94), has been active for over a decade as an amalgam of Greek poetry and art with work from Europe and America. 7 artists books were published based on 'Clinamen' (1980-1995). Since 1996 'Clinamen' has continued production of artists books (18), with a web version ( http://www.thetis.gr/services/clinamen) launched in 2001. He is also a professor of Sociology at the National School of Public Health in Athens, Greece, with many published writings on art and epidemiology. In 2004 his performance "A-Empedocles" was staged in the volcanic crater of Sicily's Mt. Aetna. DOLORES DORANTES was born in Veracruz in 1973 and has lived most of her life in Ciudad Juárez, where socioeconomic violence and politically-charged daily brutalities have informed her radically humane and incisive cultural work. She has published four book-length works of poetry, and is a founding member of the border arts collective Compañía Frugal (The Frugal Company), which counts among its activities publication of the monthly poetry broadside series Hoja Frugal, printed in editions of 4000 and distributed free throughout Mexico. Regarding that publication, Dorantes writes: "The Hoja Frugal is a project that came into being on September 9, 2001 in Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua (the so-called 'crime frontier'). Our idea was to share the readings and translations in which we as writers are engaged. But more than anything, to share them with the community as a whole, not with the 'intellectual' community. Our intention was to give the community a breath of respite in the context of the growing phenomenon of violence we experience daily in this border zone." Engaging this literary-political project from another perspective, PUREsexSWIFTsex and September are books 2 and 3 of Dorantes's lifelong project, entitled Dolores Dorantes. KATIE EDMONDS is a San Francisco-based artist with a day job. Her work has screened at the Berkeley Art Museum Pacific Film Archive Theatre and various San Francisco galleries. Her ambition in life is to speak about herself in the third person in a captivating and informative manner. * * * * "Every creative genius appears opaque to most of his contemporaries. This is true not just now, but throughout history, among every people. And not just in art alone, but also in philosophy. In this way, we might call contemporaneity a veil that comes between creative geniuses and readers. But this veil is rent before the eyes of those who come after." --Adonis, tr. Elliott Colla Better believe http://newyipes.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:40:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: This Friday at Small Press Traffic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Linda Russo & Cathy Park Hong Friday, October 19, 2007 at 7:30 p.m. Timken Lecture Hall =95 7:30 p.m. Refreshments will be served Linda Russo is the author of MIRTH (Chax Press, 2007) and o going out (Potes & Poets, 1999). Teaching currently at the University of Oklahoma, and incorporates sound art, poetry and "The Conversation" into her writing class. Agrees with Louis Zukofsky re "upper limit music, lower limit speech" and engaged in a summer romance with Lorine Niedecker. Since spring, working on poems and essays that consider connections between citizens and nonhuman natural and inhumane synthetic worlds. Cathy Park Hong's first book, Translating Mo'um was published in 2002 by Hanging Loose Press. Her second collection, Dance Dance Revolution, was chosen for the Barnard Women Poets Prize and was published in 2007 by WW Norton. Hong is also the recipient of a Fulbright Fellowship, a National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship and a Village Voice Fellowship for Minority Reporters. Her poems have been published in American Letters & Commentary, Denver Quarterly, Verse, Chain, Jubilat, and other journals, and she has reported for the Village Voice, The Guardian, and Salon. She now lives in Brooklyn and teaches at Sarah Lawrence College. Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Dana Teen Lomax, Interim Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:35:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: FW: Poetry position at American University In-Reply-To: LYRIS-93904-18317643-2007.10.15-15.19.48--aln10#psu.edu@listserv.unc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ---------------- Forwarded Message ---------------- From: Keith Leonard Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2007 03:19 PM Subject: [horton] Poetry position at American University To: "The horton mailing list" Hello all, Please pass along to anyone who you think might be interested. My department is serious about diversing our faculty. Feel free to give people my email (kdl@american.edu) if they have any questions. thanks, Keith Keith D. Leonard Associate Professor of Literature American University 202-885-2987 kdl@american.edu American University 4400 Massachusetts Av NW Battelle-Tompkins, Rm 237 Washington, DC 20016 http://www.american.edu Professor of Creative Writing/Poetry [241] Professor Rank Open Creative Writing/Poetry The Department of Literature in the College of Arts and Sciences at American University invites applications for a tenure-track position in Creative Writing/Poetry beginning Fall 2008. Rank open. Requirements: MFA by August 2008. Significant publications and promise of sustained productivity; evidence of successful teaching of literature; commitment to university service. Responsibilities include graduate and undergraduate courses in literature, General Education courses in literature with attention to gender and ethnic concerns; supervision of MFA theses. Salary competitive. Letter, CV, and dossier with three letters of recommendation to Jonathan Loesberg, Chair, Department of Literature, American University, Washington, DC 20016-8047, Attn: Search Committee. Applications will be reviewed beginning November 15. American University is seeking highly dedicated teachers and scholars who are deeply committed to interdisciplinary learning, the application of new technologies in teaching and scholarship, and to the preparation of students for life in a diverse and rapidly changing global society. American University is an EOE/AA university committed to diverse faculty, staff and student body. Women and minority candidates are particularly encouraged to apply. [R] -- You are currently subscribed to horton as: <>. To unsubscribe send a blank email to <> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:36:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Fully Awake DVD In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit thank you, Michael--it sounds like just the ticket--am sure my students will appreciate it. On 10/13/07 11:57 AM, "Michael Kelleher" wrote: > For Ruth and anyone else interested in Fully Awake: Black Mountain > College, it is available on DVD for $14.99 at > > http://www.filmbaby.com/films/2055 > > We screened it to a full house in Buffalo last night with Cathryn > Davis, one of the directors, present. Those looking for a lot of > footage of Black Mountain superstars are likely to be disappointed, > but those interested in a well-constructed, entertaining and > informative 60-minute history of the college, its educational > philosophy, and its impact on those that belonged to the community > will find just that. Also of note, the filmmakers are not "on the > make" on the film scene and want most of all to provide opportunities > for people to view the film. If you would like to screen Fully Awake > in your town or city, they are very accommodating. Contact info is > on the film's website: > > http://www.ibiblio.org/bmc/bmccontact.html > _____________________ > Michael Kelleher > Artistic Director > Just Buffalo Literary Center > Market Arcade > 617 Main St., Suite 202A > Buffalo, NY 14203 > t. 716.832.5400 > f. 716.270.0168 > http://www.justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:47:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Yoko Tawada Goes to the Dogs on Joe Brainard's Pyjamas.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New on Joe Brainard's Pyjamas...a review of Yoko Tawada's The Bridegroom was a dog...and more stuff... Tawada's stories often eroticize passivity, yet they don't seem to be about sex so much as they are about solipsism. The narrators in her stories don't really seem to believe in the world; the world is just a style the author is somehow projecting onto the unfolding phenomena called by convention a "world," and she is amused by what she perceives to be her own excesses, even when these include acts by others (or herself) which seem to shock more "rational" people around her, who, in true solipsist fashion, only exist as part of her unfolding narrative. In short, the author (and her narrators) seem to believe it beneath us, infradig, to apologize for the dream which is our life. _http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) Also, I just joined GoodReads as W.B.Keckler so if you're on there, please add me as your friend and give me some good reading suggestions for poetry of today or yestreen....merci! ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: if you were teaching this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, what texts would you use: "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to popes to cops to students and professors." help? Gabe ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: antoinette nora Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 14 Oct 2007 to 15 Oct 2007 (#2007-288) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Thank you for posting this note about Vernon's passing. Vernon Bellecourt died on Sat. Oct. 13, 2007. He will be missed by many. Indians and people of all nations gained access to ceremony and survival because of his efforts with the American Indian Movement. For a tribute, Vernon in his own words, visit www.bellecourtinterview.blogspot.com Thank you. For remembering his life. antoinette nora claypoole visit an interview http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.9.AntoinetteClaypoole.htm "collecting voices was her passion. writing is her mute button poetry a lifeboat dropped from her. titanic. " --from watersongs a work in progress On Oct 16, 2007, at 12:05 AM, POETICS automatic digest system wrote: > > Friday, October 26 7:30 > > > Touching on issues of linguistic, cultural, aesthetic, and political > translation and transposition, these three authors will read from > their > recent books: /Hannah Weiner's Open House/ edited by Durgin; > /sexoPUROsexoVELOZ/ and /Septiembre/ by Dorantes; and /The Route/ by > Durgin and Hofer. > > > Modern Times is now donating 10% of the total sales on all events > books > to community organizations > > > For a complete listing of events visit us online at > moderntimesbookstore.com > > MODERN TIMES IS WHEELCHAIR ACCESSIBLE. > > FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC > > > > Modern Times Bookstore > > 888 Valencia Street > San Francisco, CA 94110 > > Ph: 415-282-9246 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 06:57:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Lehmus" Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <750809.20164.qm@web86007.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed two e.e. cummings books from a library when i was a kid. Paid for them afterwards, though. So i'm not sure if that qualifies as stealing - jukka On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? > > mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:33:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <750809.20164.qm@web86007.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. Fortunately, this has changed, but not necessarily because I've grown morally. I've simply discovered libraries that sell books on the cheap, and I've taken to checking out books as well. I did have some ethics as I almost never stole from small independent stores. I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any of the large chain stores. During my twenties when I lived off of beer, tobacco & weed and had the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my Steal another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world class thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than giving them away...) Great news! They're stealing our books! FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- language books this year. "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- seller lists," Hanssen added. The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, featured among the mainly German titles on the list. More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:02:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i would show the lannan foundation video of amiri baraka. it never fails to inspire students. Gabriel Gudding wrote: > I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering > and would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog > description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, > what texts would you use: > > "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what > a sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead > read poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, > inspired assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and > that have become the backbone of various cultures throughout the > history of Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore > poetry as a mode of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural > critique and symbolic and social action. We will, in short, "get down" > with what poetry is all about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, > destroying, and re-making the world. Among other things, will look at > poetry's roots not as a private, nostalgic, cherished mode of > utterance, but as a forceful and social speech event, paying > particular attention to poetry's origins in insult and curse and > praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore the poetry of > ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the other, the > poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and love > making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach > poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a > collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be > fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special > beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, > very real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making > our world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children > to popes to cops to students and professors." > > help? > > Gabe > ---------------------------------- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------- > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, Illinois 61790 > 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:04:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The poem that immediately comes to mind, although it may not fulfill all the criteria presented here is William Carlos Williams' Paterson, a truly revolutionary poem in many ways. Did it change the world? No. But what poem really has? Of course, Ginsberg's Howl came close. But I suspect you have that one on your list already. Regards, Tom Savage Gabriel Gudding wrote: I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, what texts would you use: "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to popes to cops to students and professors." help? Gabe ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:13:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Lovin Subject: Re: if you were teaching this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Against Forgetting: Twentieth-Century Poetry of Witness, edited by Carolyn Forche may be a book that would work for this class. The poems are arranged chronologically (by war and/or other periods of social unrest), and I believe, geographically, as well. Many powerful poems included. Also, I've found the Vintage Book of Contemporary World Poetry edited by J.D. McClatchy to be full of just such poetry, simply because many "world" poets (whatever that term really means) live in nations that are or have been in political and social upheaval, which is reflected in the work. Good luck. Your description makes the course very appealing. Christina Lovin -------------- Original message from Gabriel Gudding : -------------- > I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and > would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog > description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, > what texts would you use: > > "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a > sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read > poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired > assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have > become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of > Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode > of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic > and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all > about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the > world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, > nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social > speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult > and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore > the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the > other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and > love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach > poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a > collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be > fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special > beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very > real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our > world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to > popes to cops to students and professors." > > help? > > Gabe > ---------------------------------- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------- > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, Illinois 61790 > 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:19:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Guerrilla Warfare, Ernesto "Che" Guevara. I tossed it out the library window then went around outside and picked it up. Read within certain contexts, "How to pitch a lean-to" is great poetry. -ryan On 10/16/07, J. Lehmus wrote: > > two e.e. cummings books from a library when i was a kid. Paid for them > afterwards, though. So i'm not sure if that qualifies as stealing - > > jukka > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? > > > > mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:25:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Yoko Tawada Goes to the Dogs on Joe Brainard's Pyjamas.... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Mr. Keckler, I just joined GoodReads at your suggestion. When I saw my whole list of email addresses pop up, I didn't know what to do since none of these people have asked to be on GoodReads, I didn't feel I had the right to just add them. I asked a question about The Sound and the Fury, which I am currently reading and which I don't understand. It is the most confusing book of fiction I've read in many years. I rarely know who is speaking or, even sometimes, what is happening in it. Do you understand this book? Does it become more comprehensible in the end? Does anyone understand this book? I realize that on some level it is easier to read than Finnegans Wake or Gertrude Stein but since it seems to have a linear narrative but may not, I expect different things from it. Regards, Tom Savage "W.B. Keckler" wrote: New on Joe Brainard's Pyjamas...a review of Yoko Tawada's The Bridegroom was a dog...and more stuff... Tawada's stories often eroticize passivity, yet they don't seem to be about sex so much as they are about solipsism. The narrators in her stories don't really seem to believe in the world; the world is just a style the author is somehow projecting onto the unfolding phenomena called by convention a "world," and she is amused by what she perceives to be her own excesses, even when these include acts by others (or herself) which seem to shock more "rational" people around her, who, in true solipsist fashion, only exist as part of her unfolding narrative. In short, the author (and her narrators) seem to believe it beneath us, infradig, to apologize for the dream which is our life. _http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) Also, I just joined GoodReads as W.B.Keckler so if you're on there, please add me as your friend and give me some good reading suggestions for poetry of today or yestreen....merci! ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:37:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stole Burroughs and Gysin's THIRD MIND and Creeley's THE CHARM. Never regretted it, but then they (honestly) 'changed' my life - at least till reading Kafka's METAMORPHOSIS (which my wife, then simply 'my girl,' kindly purchased for me). AGJ --- "J. Lehmus" wrote: > two e.e. cummings books from a library when i was a > kid. Paid for them > afterwards, though. So i'm not sure if that > qualifies as stealing - > > jukka > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? > > > > mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than > giving them away...) > > > > > -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:39:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would definitely select from the following: Kamau Brathwaite, the Chinese "Misty" poets, Martin Carter, South African poets from the apartheid era, Leon Damas, Aime Cesaire, the troubadours, William Blake, the Poem of the Cid, Osip Mandelstam, songs from the Paris Commune and the IWW and the Spanish Revolution of 1936, Amiri Baraka, Somali oral poetry, African-American toasts and boasts, Shmuel Ha-Nagid, Langston Hughes, Nicolas Guillen, Benjamin Peret, Angela Davis's book on blues women, Jayne Cortez, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Louise Bennett, and so on, and so on -- the possibilities are endless. Yes, and the Popol Vuh, the Book of Chilam Balam, Jalauddin Rumi, Maria Sabina. It's going to be a great course, judging from the description! ----- Original Message ----- From: Gabriel Gudding Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:11 am Subject: if you were teaching this To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering > and > would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog > description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, > > what texts would you use: > > "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what > a > sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read > > poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired > assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that > have > become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of > Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a > mode > of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and > symbolic > and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is > all > about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making > the > world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a > private, > nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social > > speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in > insult > and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, > explore > the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the > > other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies > and > love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally > approach > poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a > collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be > fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special > beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, > very > real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our > world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to > > popes to cops to students and professors." > > help? > > Gabe > ---------------------------------- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------- > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, Illinois 61790 > 309.438.5284 (office) > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:42:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: if you were teaching this: Byron In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Go with Lord Byron all the way, man: a fun perv with a social edge. Gabriel Gudding wrote: I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, what texts would you use: "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to popes to cops to students and professors." help? Gabe ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:46:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sarah Rosenthal Subject: Reading Saturday 10/20 NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This Saturday, Oct. 20th, 3pm: Jennifer Firestone, Jill Magi, Sarah Rosenthal 326 Spring Street (west of Greenwich Street), New York City FREE Subway: C/E to Spring Street; 1/9 to Canal Street; N/R to Prince Street Jennifer Firestone is the co-editor of and contributing writer to Letters To Poets: Conversations About Poetics, Politics, and Community forthcoming from Saturnalia Books. She also is the author of Holiday, an interrogation of the relationships among observation, travel and consumerism, which is forthcoming from Shearsman Books. Her chapbook Waves is published by Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs, and her chapbooks From Flashes and snapshot are both published by Sona Books. Her work has appeared in numerous journals, including How2, 14 Hills, 580 Split, Boog City, MIPOesias, Can We Have Our Ball Back, Dusie and Moria. She is the Poet in Residence at Eugene Lang College at the New School University. Jill Magi, writer and visual artist, is the author of Torchwood, a collection of poems forthcoming in 2008 from Shearsman, and Threads, a hybrid work of prose, poetry, and collage, published in 2007 by Futurepoem Books. Her chapbook, Cadastral Map, an investigation of the problems of North American nature writing, was published in 2005 by Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs. Jill is also the author of several small, personally distributed handmade books. She is a studio manager with the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council, where she is at work on a hybrid manuscript of prose, poetry, visual art, and sound art collaborations that explore responses to inscribed and landscaped memory in lower Manhattan and elsewhere. Her writing has been anthologized in Fiction from the Brooklyn Rail and is forthcoming in Letters to Poets and The Eco-language Reader. Other works have been published in HOW2: Experimental Writing by Women, The New Review of Literature, Aufgabe, Chain, Pierogi Press, and exhibited at the Brooklyn Arts Council Gallery, The Brooklyn Pier Shows, and the International Meeting of Visual Poetry. She lives in Brooklyn, New York, teaches in the Goddard College BFA Writing Program and the Eugene Lang College of the New School, and is the editor of Sona Books, a community-based chapbook press. Sarah Rosenthal is the author of sitings (a+bend), not-chicago (Melodeon), How I Wrote This Story (Margin to Margin) and the forthcoming Manhatten (Spuyten Duyvil). Her work has been anthologized in Bay Poetics (Faux), hinge (Crack), and The Other Side of the Postcard (City Lights). Her poems, reviews, interviews, and essays have appeared in numerous journals such as Boston Review, Fence, Bird Dog, 26, Jacket, How2, Denver Quarterly, and New American Writing. She is the recipient of the Leo Litwak Award for Fiction and the Primavera Fiction Prize. She created a commissioned, site-specific installation based on her poetry for the Exploratorium museum of San Francisco. She has taught creative writing at San Francisco State University and Santa Clara University. She has recently edited a collection of interviews with Bay Area poets titled A Community Writing Itself. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:55:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: midwest daisy Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Baraka's Somebody Blew Up America On 10/16/07, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and > would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog > description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, > what texts would you use: > > "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a > sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read > poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired > assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have > become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of > Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode > of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic > and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all > about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the > world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, > nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social > speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult > and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore > the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the > other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and > love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach > poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a > collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be > fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special > beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very > real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our > world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to > popes to cops to students and professors." > > help? > > Gabe > ---------------------------------- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------- > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, Illinois 61790 > 309.438.5284 (office) > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit By the way, I sent this query to imitationpoetics-l a week or so ago, and Murat and Pierre and Alex Dickow, Wystan Curnow, Julian Semilian, Peter Davis, and Joe Safdie gave a lot of good suggestions already, but I need more. The specific texts/authors suggested so far: -Jerry's Technicians of the Sacred -Aimes Cesaire's _Return to My Native Land_ -stuff in the Eda anthology -Hazim Hikment -Lale Müldür's poem "Waking to Constantinople," which, Murat remarked, "caused a riot when the poet read it in a public park and was booed off stage. Her vision of Istanbul as a two thousand year old city where the five hundred year old Ottoman rationality is superimposed on a fifteen hundred year of Byzantine dream world demanding a new synthesis was a too disturbing an idea for the ultra nationalists and Islamic fundementalists in the audience. It is an incredible poem of the kind I think you are looking for" -Murat also recommended k. Iskender's souljam -Laurence Sterne's curse in Tristram Shandy -Lyrical Ballads -Early Adrienne Rich -a book called _I Don't Have Any Paper, So Shut Up!_ -Bob Dylan, like "subterranean homesick blues" and "it's alright ma" and "positively 4th street" and "idiot wind" -Helene Cixous -Robert Bly's 60s mojo -the 1918 Dada manifesto -BLAST -Rimbaud -Cendrars' Prose of the Transiberian -Jacques Prevert's poem about the Kaiser with a finger up his ass -Leon Gontran Damas' _Pigments_ -Shelley's "England in 1819" -Neruda's "Canto General" -Jack Hirshman's entire ouevre -Dorn's _North Atlantic Turbine_ Gabriel Gudding wrote: > I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and > would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog > description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, > what texts would you use: > > "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a > sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read > poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired > assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have > become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of > Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode > of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic > and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all > about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the > world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, > nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social > speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult > and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore > the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the > other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and > love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach > poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a > collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be > fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special > beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very > real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our > world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to > popes to cops to students and professors." > > help? > > Gabe > ---------------------------------- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------- > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, Illinois 61790 > 309.438.5284 (office) > > -- _______________________________________________________ RHODE ISLAND NOTEBOOK (Dalkey Archive Press, 2007) http://books.dalkeyarchive.com/book/each_book/397 ------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:18:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: October 20: The City Visible Poetry Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CHICAGO POETS READ FROM THE CITY VISIBLE Cracked Slab Books (http://crackedslabbooks.com) presents a reading by poets of its new anthology, The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century. This collection brings together a sampling of some of the best poets working in Chicago and the surrounding region. Saturday, October 20th from 7-10:30pm Gethsemane Evangelical Church 3617 W. Belle Plaine Avenue Chicago, IL *CTA Irving Park Blue Line* (1 block north of Elston & Irving Park intersection) Readers include: William Allegrezza, Ray Bianchi, Cynthia Bond, Garin Cycholl, Eric Elshtain, Joel Felix, Chris Glomski, Jennifer Karmin, Simone Muench, Peter O'Leary, Kristy Odelius, Jorge Sanchez, Larry Sawyer, Robyn Schiff, Kerri Sonnenberg, Tony Trigilio, Nick Twemlow, Johanny Vázquez Paz, and Lina Vitkauskas Admission is $5 $15 to receive a copy of the anthology (retail value $22.95) "When Carl Sandburg asked in his Chicago Poems, close to a hundred years ago, for 'a voice to speak to me in the day end, / A hand to touch me in the dark room / Breaking the long loneliness,' little did he know his city would be so fully and livingly answered and so honored. Chicago is again transformed by poetry. Here in these myriad acts of imagination, the poets of The City Visible give to it again, in Shakespeare's terms, :a local habitation and a name." -- Peter Gizzi "The most exciting and satisfying anthology I've acquired in the past month is The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century . . . It not only is easily the best anthology I've ever seen that tried to capture the lively scene of the Second City, but it's a worthy companion to Stephanie Young's Bay Poetics, which for my money is the gold standard in contemporary poetry anthologies, especially ones that offer a regional focus." -- Ron Silliman "Unveiling an entire new poetic culture may seem like the act of a master magician, but Allegrezza and Bianchi have been on the case a long time and they know what they're doing. Volume Two is said to be in the works, and in the meantime I for one will be ordering several copies of Volume One for students, friends, and family relations. When young poets ask me, where should I go, what should I do, nowadays I always say pull out a map, throw in a dart. X marks the spot, but Chicago is the most exciting scene around. Years from now we'll be looking back at the early 21st century and wishing we'd all relocated there at this time in poetry history." -- Kevin Killian ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:16:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Following spat with Germany's Merkel (and "hurt feelings") over the Dalai Lama, the U.S. In-Reply-To: <651658.64800.qm@web83314.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit By Lindsay Beck BEIJING (Reuters) - China expressed fury on Tuesday that the United States is to honor the Dalai Lama with an award and warned that the activities of his supporters were increasing in Chinese-controlled Tibet. The Dalai Lama, who has lived in exile in India since staging a failed uprising against Chinese rule in 1959, is to receive the U.S. Congressional Gold Medal on Wednesday after being hosted at the White House by President George W. Bush. "We are furious," Tibet's Communist Party boss, Zhang Qingli, told reporters. "If the Dalai Lama can receive such an award, there must be no justice or good people in the world." China, which views the Dalai Lama as a separatist and a traitor, pulled out of a meeting this week at which world powers were to discuss Iran in protest at the U.S. plan to honor him. China has also cancelled an annual human rights dialogue with Germany to show is displeasure over German Chancellor Angela Merkel's September meeting with the Dalai Lama. Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said China had expressed its "resolute opposition" to the award. "China has solemnly demanded the United States cancel the above-mentioned and extremely wrongful arrangement," Yang told reporters on the sidelines of the 17th Communist Party Congress. Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said that if the decision to honor the Dalai Lama was not reversed it would have an "extremely serious impact" on bilateral relations. China had pulled out of the meeting on Iran for "technical reasons", he told a news conference. China's rhetoric against the Dalai Lama, whom Tibetan Buddhists consider their spiritual leader, has been increasing in line with his accolades abroad, even though the government and the Dalai's envoys are engaged in a tentative dialogue process. OBSTACLES Tibet officials said the dialogue was not going well. "Although we have undergone a lot of contacts and talks, the Dalai Lama has consistently supported Tibetan independence," said Qiangba Puncog, Tibet's governor. "Under these circumstances, even though we keep the doors for contact open, there cannot be major development as long as the problem is not resolved." The Dalai Lama has said he supports a "middle way" policy that advocates autonomy for Tibet within China, but Qiangba Puncog said China believed he still supported independence and warmed that separatist activities in the region were increasing. "He (the Dalai Lama) should resolutely abandon his Tibetan independence stance and activities," Qiangba Puncog said. "But in my opinion, some of those activities are actually escalating and setting a lot of obstacles for further progress." At least two Communist Party members in Tibet have been expelled recently for alleged disloyalty to China, according to an internal Party memo. Earlier this year, an ethnic Tibetan in the western province of Sichuan addressed a crowd on the need for greater religious freedom and for the Dalai Lama to be allowed to return. The man, Runggye Adak, has been charged with subversion, a Hong Kong-based human rights group has said. Rights groups also say several Tibetan boys were detained in the northwestern province of Gansu last month after graffiti calling for the Dalai Lama's return was found scribbled on walls, a sign of his residual influence throughout ethnic Tibetan regions of China. Four of the boys, all 15, were still in detention. Police had used electric prods on them and were demanding payment for their release, Amnesty International said in a statement. (Additional reporting by Chris Buckley and Guo Shipeng) -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:59:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: publication of The Alphabet Game: a bpNichol reader (please forward) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear friends, I'm so happy to announce the publication of _The Alphabet Game: a bpNichol Reader_, edited by Darren Wershler-Henry and Lori Emerson (Coach House Press 2007). Please forward this announcement far and wide! yours, Lori Emerson ---------------------------- The Alphabet Game: a bpNichol Reader Coach House Press CAD $21.95 ISBN: 1552451879 http://www.chbooks.com/catalogue/index.php?ISBN=3D1552451879 bpNichol was one of Canada's most innovative, eclectic, entertaining, and, yes, enigmatic poets, making startling interventions in the development of poetry and profoundly influencing both his own and subsequent generations of writers. The Alphabet Game: A bpNichol Reader amasses key texts from the very broad spectrum of Nichol's work, including both classic favourites and more obscure treasures. From the early typewriter poetry of Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer and the life-long poem The Martyrology to the heartbreaking prose of Journal and the whimsical autobiography of Selected Organs, The Alphabet Game traces the trajectory of this wildly imaginative and prolific poet. This Nichol anthology is an ideal introduction for readers encountering Nichol for the first time, and a much-needed compendium for Nichol fans seeking access to works not readily available. 'His wit, along with the seriousness, was there to keep the language free and untethered, to keep the poem aware of its roots, like a tuxedo worn with bare feet in a muddy river =85 No other writer of our time and place was so diverse, attempted so much, and never lost sight of his intent.' =96 Michael Ondaatje The Alphabet Game: Table of Contents PROLOGUE The Complete Works (1969) 11 CONCRETE AND VISUAL POETRY Konfessions of an Elizabethan Fan Dancer (1967/1973) NOT WHAT THE SIREN SANG BUT WHAT THE FRAG MEANT 14 Poem for Kenneth Patchen 15 Blues 16 Easter Pome 17 Early Morning: June 23 18 Dada Lama: to the memory of Hugo Ball (1968) 19 The Cosmic Chef: An Evening of Concrete (1970) untitled [nnnnnn] 25 Still Water (1970) excerpts 26 ABC: the aleph beth book (1971) manifesto 34 excerpts 35 Aleph Unit (1973) Aleph Unit Closed 42 Aleph Unit Opened 43 Aleph Unit Surface 44 Aleph Unit Observed 45 Aleph Unit Not 46 Afterword 47 Alphhabet Ilphabet (1978) H (an alphhabet) 48 FROM THE MARTYROLOGY (1972=961987) Book 1 50 Book 2 55 Book 3 58 Book 4 78 Book 5 91 Book 6 Books 111 SHORTER POEMS AND SEQUENCES Journeying & the Returns (1967) Part 1: Blues on Green 130 Part 3: Ancient Maps of the Real World 133 Statement 142 The Other Side of the Room (1971) circus days 143 stasis 145 Translating Translating Apollinaire: a preliminary report from a book of research (1979) TTA 4: original version 146 TTA 7: re-arranging letters alphabetically 147 TTA 13: sound translation 148 TTA 17: acrostic translation 149 from TTA 18: 10 views: view 1 (walking east =85 ) 153 TTA 30: poem as a machine for generating line drawings 154 TTA 53: typewriter translation after the style of Earle Birney 155 Extreme Positions (1981) Extreme Positions 4 158 PROSE AND PROSE POETRY Two Novels (1971) Andy 170 For Jesus Lunatick 180 Craft Dinner: stories & texts, 1966=961976 (1978) Gorg: a detective story 186 The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid 187 The Long Weekend of Louis Riel 191 Two Heroes 195 Journal (1978) 1 200 3 217 Two Words: A Wedding (1978) 219 Still (1982) 220 Selected Organs: Parts of an Autobiography (1988) The Vagina 226 The Mouth 228 The Tonsils 230 The Lungs: A Draft 231 Sum of the Parts 234 LOVE ZYGAL ART FACTS love: a book of remembrances (1974) Frames 238 Trans-Continental 243 Allegories 272 zygal: a book of mysteries and translations (1985) song for saint ein 280 Self-contradiction 281 probable systems 8 282 Pastoral 284 love song 285 love song 3 286 three small songs for gladys hindmarch 287 probable systems 289 probable systems 15: division of the signified 290 art facts: a book of contexts (1990) The Frog Variations 291 Three Months in New York City: The Actual Life of Language 1 293 Sixteen Lilypads 307 untitled [asea/ease] 308 Catching Frogs 309 untitled [fr/pond/glop] 310 Water Poem 5 311 probable systems 24: physical contexts of human words 312 EPIPROLOGUE Before Closure 313 afterword Editorial Statement 316 Notes on the Poems 318 Select Bibliography 322 Permissions 326 Index of Poem and Book Titles 328 Acknowledgements 331 Biography 332 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:06:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jilly Dybka Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline When I was a teenager I stole a copy of Howl from the library of the Quaker church my dad attended in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I still have it. I should mail it back to them. (hangs head) -- Jilly Dybka, WA4CZD jilly9@gmail.com Blog: http://www.poetryhut.com/wordpress/ Jazz: http://cdbaby.com/cd/dybka Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:10:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Allegrezza Subject: October Series A: Stempleman and Levato Comments: To: wallegre@iun.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline UGxlYXNlIGNvbWUgdG8gdGhlIFNlcmllcyBBIHJlYWRpbmcgbmV4dCBUdWVzZGF5LgoKT2N0b2Jl ciAyM3JkLCA3OjAwLTg6MDAgcC5tLgogICAgICAgIEpvcmRhbiBTdGVtcGxlbWFuCiAgICAgICAg TGF1cmVuIExldmF0bwoKVGhlIHJlYWRpbmcgd2lsbCBiZSBoZWxkIGF0IHRoZSBIeWRlIFBhcmsg QXJ0CkNlbnRlcjxodHRwOi8vd3d3Lmh5ZGVwYXJrYXJ0Lm9yZy8+Lgo1MDIwIFMuIENvcm5lbGwg QXZlbnVlCkNoaWNhZ28sIElMLgoKQllPQi4KCkZvciBtb3JlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLCBzZWUgd3d3 Lm1vcmlhcG9ldHJ5LmNvbS9zZXJpZXNhLmh0bWwgb3IgY2FsbAozMTItMzQyLTczMzcuCgoKVmlz dWFsIGFydGlzdCwgd3JpdGVyLCAmIGZlbWluaXN0IGFjdGl2aXN0IExhdXJlbiBMZXZhdG8gaXMg dGhlIGF1dGhvciBvZiAqYXQKdGhlIGhvdGVsIGFuZHJvbWVkYSogKERhbmNpbmcgR2lybCBQcmVz cywgMjAwNyksIGFuIGltYWdlIGFuZCB0ZXh0CmNvbGxhYm9yYXRpdmUgcHJvamVjdCB3aXRoIEty aXN0eSBCb3dlbiwgYW5kIHRoZSBwb2V0cnkgY2hhcGJvb2sgKk1hcnJpYWdlCkJvbmVzKiAoRnJh Y3RhbCBFZGdlIFByZXNzIDIwMDYpLiBIZXIgcG9ldHJ5IGhhcyBhcHBlYXJlZCBpbiAqQWZ0ZXIg SG91cnMsCkhlciBNYXJrLCBNb29uTGl0KiBhbmQgKldpY2tlZCBBbGljZSo7IGhlciBwb2V0cnkg YXdhcmRzIGluY2x1ZGUgYQpmZWxsb3dzaGlwIGZyb20gdGhlIFZlcm1vbnQgU3R1ZGlvIENlbnRl ci4gU2hlIGlzIGFsc28gdGhlIGN1cmF0b3Igb2YgdGhlCldvbWFuIE1hZGUgR2FsbGVyeSBwb2V0 cnkgc2VyaWVzLiBMZXZhdG8gZWFybmVkIGRlZ3JlZXMgaW4gUHJvZmVzc2lvbmFsCldyaXRpbmcg YW5kIGluIFdvbWVu77+9cyBTdHVkaWVzIGZyb20gUHVyZHVlIFVuaXZlcnNpdHksIGFuZCBpbiBQ b2xpdGljYWwKSm91cm5hbGlzbSBmcm9tIEdlb3JnZXRvd24gVW5pdmVyc2l0eS4gU2luY2UgMTk5 NyBzaGUgaGFzIHdvcmtlZCBhcyBhCndyaXRlciwgZWRpdG9yLCBhbmQgZWRpdG9yaWFsIGFkdmlz b3IgYXQgc2V2ZXJhbCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgZGFpbHkgYW5kIG1vbnRobHkKcHVibGljYXRpb25zLCBp bmNsdWRpbmcgKlBJU1RJTCBNYWdhemluZSosIGFuZCBpcyBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGZvdW5kaW5nCmVk aXRvcnMgb2YgSW5rICgmKSBBc2hlczogYSBqb3VybmFsIG9mIHRoZSBzZW5zZXMuIEluIGFkZGl0 aW9uIHRvIGV4aGliaXRpbmcKaW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGx5LCBoZXIgYXJ0d29yayBoYXMgYXBwZWFy ZWQgaW4gbWFueSBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbnMsIGluY2x1ZGluZyAqCkNhbHl4KiBhbmQgKldpY2tlZCBB bGljZSosIGFuZCBiZWVuIHVzZWQgYXMgY292ZXIgYXJ0IGJ5IERhbmNpbmcgR2lybCBQcmVzcwph bmQgRmluaXNoaW5nIExpbmUgUHJlc3MuIExldmF0byBpcyBjdXJyZW50bHkgdGhlIGdhbGxlcnkg ZGlyZWN0b3IgYXQgdGhlCkxpbGxzdHJlZXQgQXJ0IENlbnRlciBpbiBDaGljYWdvLgoKCgpKb3Jk YW4gU3RlbXBsZW1hbiBsaXZlcyBpbiBJb3dhIENpdHkgd2hlcmUgaGUgYXR0ZW5kcyB0aGUgV3Jp dGVycycgV29ya3Nob3AuCkhlIGlzIHRoZSBhdXRob3Igb2YgKlRoZWlyIEZpZWxkcyogKE1vcmlh LCAyMDA1KSBhbmQgKldoYXQncyB0aGUKTWF0dGVyKihPdG9saXRocywgMjAwNykuIFJlY2VudCB3 b3JrIGhhcyBhcHBlYXJlZCBpbgoqTmV3IEFtZXJpY2FuIFdyaXRpbmcsIE5vb24sIE90b2xpdGhz KiwgYW5kICpQLVF1ZXVlKi4qKgoKCkZlZWwgZnJlZSB0byBwYXNzIHRoaXMgbm90aWNlIHRvIG90 aGVycy4K ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:24:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit in reference to may last post, I should add one fact: I didn't actually steal in the tens of thousands, but the books I did steal were probably worth 50 grand plus. I had my architecture period. Those are some pricey books. As for poetry, name it, I've stole it. I'm now mostly legit. I try to buy 1st editions, get the author's signature and sell. If I like the author, I'll have him sign at least two copies so I can keep one for myself. I've got signed first editions from the poet laureate going back 2 decades. If the author is dead, a signed 1st is more valuable. The thought has occurred to me to set up an author hit list, you know, get real serious about "the business." "J. Lehmus" wrote: two e.e. cummings books from a library when i was a kid. Paid for them afterwards, though. So i'm not sure if that qualifies as stealing - jukka On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? > > mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:30:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <423060.7886.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've had 6 copies of Hakim Bey's Temporary Autonomous Zone stolen from our community's library over the past 15 years. Not poetry per se, but a book about poetic terrorism. ~mIEKAL On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:33 AM, steve russell wrote: > At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. > Fortunately, this has changed, but not necessarily because I've > grown morally. I've simply discovered libraries that sell books on > the cheap, and I've taken to checking out books as well. I did have > some ethics as I almost never stole from small independent stores. > I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any of the large chain stores. > During my twenties when I lived off of beer, tobacco & weed and had > the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my Steal > another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of > thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world > class thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has > ever stolen a poetry book? > > mIEKAL aND > wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > > > > Great news! They're stealing our books! > > FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to > help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented > at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. > > Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists > of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set > up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. > > "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia > Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag > newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- > language books this year. > > "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- > seller lists," Hanssen added. > > The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An > Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, > featured among the mainly German titles on the list. > > More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. > There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries > presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:37:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Frank Bidart has some very disturbing, powerful narrative poems full of hurting, hating, helping, loving, etc. The beats fulfill the praise and benediction part of the syllabus. Lord Byron's Don Juan would be an interesting poem to look at. Eliot, too. I'm still trying to come up with something for ritualized insult. I wish I knew more about Celtic poetry, or Arabic poetry. OF COURSE THE BIBLE, OLD tESTAMENT, WOULD PROBABLY FULFILL THE CURSE, PRAISE AND JUST ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT IN A COMPARITIVE POETRY COURSE. Gabriel Gudding wrote: I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, what texts would you use: "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to popes to cops to students and professors." help? Gabe ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:51:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <4714F05C.4030905@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's more in the vispo / ephemera realm but how about the Golden Plates of Joseph Smith http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates and also my godfather should be on the list: Alexei Kruchenykh... On Oct 16, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > By the way, I sent this query to imitationpoetics-l a week or so ago, > and Murat and Pierre and Alex Dickow, Wystan Curnow, Julian Semilian, > Peter Davis, and Joe Safdie gave a lot of good suggestions already, =20= > but > I need more. The specific texts/authors suggested so far: > > -Jerry's Technicians of the Sacred > -Aimes Cesaire's _Return to My Native Land_ > -stuff in the Eda anthology > -Hazim Hikment > -Lale M=FCld=FCr's poem "Waking to Constantinople," which, Murat = remarked, > "caused a riot when the poet read it in a public park and was booed =20= > off > stage. Her vision of Istanbul as a two thousand year old city where =20= > the > five hundred year old Ottoman rationality is superimposed on a fifteen > hundred year of Byzantine dream world demanding a new synthesis was a > too disturbing an idea for the ultra nationalists and Islamic > fundementalists in the audience. It is an incredible poem of the =20 > kind I > think you are looking for" > -Murat also recommended k. Iskender's souljam > -Laurence Sterne's curse in Tristram Shandy > -Lyrical Ballads > -Early Adrienne Rich > -a book called _I Don't Have Any Paper, So Shut Up!_ > -Bob Dylan, like "subterranean homesick blues" and "it's alright =20 > ma" and > "positively 4th street" and "idiot wind" > -Helene Cixous > -Robert Bly's 60s mojo > -the 1918 Dada manifesto > -BLAST > -Rimbaud > -Cendrars' Prose of the Transiberian > -Jacques Prevert's poem about the Kaiser with a finger up his ass > -Leon Gontran Damas' _Pigments_ > -Shelley's "England in 1819" > -Neruda's "Canto General" > -Jack Hirshman's entire ouevre > -Dorn's _North Atlantic Turbine_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:06:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. A. Lee" Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <433583.96592.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 These last couple of posts remind me of Ron Padgett's memoir, where he describes lifting books with Ted Berrigan. Very bohemian, subversive, and great fun. Except for the bookseller. And the author. I'd go so far as to say that even the monstrous Barnes & Noble doesn't deserve to be stolen from, if only for the effect it's bound to have on the minimum-wager at the cash register. J. A. Lee ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Alexander Jorgensen To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:37:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Steal this book > Stole Burroughs and Gysin's THIRD MIND and Creeley's > THE CHARM. Never regretted it, but then they > (honestly) 'changed' my life - at least till reading > Kafka's METAMORPHOSIS (which my wife, then simply 'my > girl,' kindly purchased for me). > > AGJ > > --- "J. Lehmus" wrote: > > > two e.e. cummings books from a library when i was a > > kid. Paid for them > > afterwards, though. So i'm not sure if that > > qualifies as stealing - > > > > jukka > > > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > > > Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? > > > > > > mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than > > giving them away...) > > > > > > > > > > -- > Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of > the stuff that nature replaces it with." ------- End of Original Message ------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:59:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: Steal this book Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <423060.7886.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Many, many, back in the day when I was poor in NYC. Never from small bookstores=8Bmany of which were owned by friends. My best score was in my sophomore year when I knew for sure I was dropping out of Swarthmore. I went into the bookstore and piled up the Cantos, Personae, ABC of Reading, Dylan Thomas, cummings, Williams, Auden, oyce, whatever was available, and put it all on my college bill. It came to over two hundred dollars, which was a fortune in 1953. When I didn=B9t go back to school my parents decided to disown me so they felt they shouldn=B9t have to pay the bill. It remained unpaid for 30-plus years. I finally caught up wit= h it in the 1980s sometime. But in 1953, as soon as I had found my own place and unpacked I read the Cantos cover to cover, skimming what I didn=B9t understand. They changed my world. I still have that edition, which ends with Canto 84. Diane di Prima From: steve russell Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:33:56 -0700 To: Subject: Re: Steal this book At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. Fortunately, this has changed, but not necessarily because I've grown morally. I've simply discovered libraries that sell books on the cheap, and I've taken to checking out books as well. I did have some ethics as I almost never stole from small independent stores. I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any of the large chain stores. During my twenties when I lived off of beer, tobacc= o & weed and had the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my Steal another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world class thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? mIEKAL aND=20 wrote: (even better than giving them away...) Great news! They're stealing our books! FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- language books this year. "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- seller lists," Hanssen added. The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, featured among the mainly German titles on the list. More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. =20 --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:08:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: if you were teaching this Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Unsettling America, ed. By Maria Gillan, Penguin paperback. An anthology of contemporary poetry about the experience of new-comers to America. Diane di Prima From: Gabriel Gudding Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:07:04 -0500 To: Subject: if you were teaching this I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, what texts would you use: "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to popes to cops to students and professors." help? Gabe ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:59:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amish Trivedi Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <433583.96592.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I stole Picture of Dorian Gray from the University of Georgia's house in Oxford during the Summer of 2003. I still feel guilty. Amish Alexander Jorgensen wrote: Stole Burroughs and Gysin's THIRD MIND and Creeley's THE CHARM. Never regretted it, but then they (honestly) 'changed' my life - at least till reading Kafka's METAMORPHOSIS (which my wife, then simply 'my girl,' kindly purchased for me). AGJ --- "J. Lehmus" wrote: > two e.e. cummings books from a library when i was a > kid. Paid for them > afterwards, though. So i'm not sure if that > qualifies as stealing - > > jukka > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? > > > > mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than > giving them away...) > > > > > -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." "Christopher Columbus, as everyone knows, is honored by posterity because he was the last to discover America." -James Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:23:49 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <0AEED599-AA60-4CC4-96AE-29781E95BC32@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm starting to feel pretty ethical compared to some on this list! As a teenager, I stole a number of New Directions paperbacks from the book section of Meyer Brothers department store in Paterson, NJ (although Paterson itself, the very first ND book I ever read, I either bought or borrowed from the library). But never since. mIEKAL aND wrote: I've had 6 copies of Hakim Bey's Temporary Autonomous Zone stolen from our community's library over the past 15 years. Not poetry per se, but a book about poetic terrorism. ~mIEKAL On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:33 AM, steve russell wrote: > At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. > Fortunately, this has changed, but not necessarily because I've > grown morally. I've simply discovered libraries that sell books on > the cheap, and I've taken to checking out books as well. I did have > some ethics as I almost never stole from small independent stores. > I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any of the large chain stores. > During my twenties when I lived off of beer, tobacco & weed and had > the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my Steal > another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of > thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world > class thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has > ever stolen a poetry book? > > mIEKAL aND > wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > > > > Great news! They're stealing our books! > > FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to > help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented > at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. > > Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists > of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set > up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. > > "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia > Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag > newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- > language books this year. > > "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- > seller lists," Hanssen added. > > The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An > Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, > featured among the mainly German titles on the list. > > More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. > There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries > presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <229625.36912.qm@web52404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Even though I knew many who stole poetry books (late 1960s in San Francisco &c), I never did. I remember at City Lights there was a sign above the stairs going down to the poetry section then in the basement that read: "Remember, it's your karma." That's not what stopped me. Nor did the fact that the person at the register would not look at the customers closely, even seeming to turn his or her back when one came from downstairs (making it easy to steal books). Even though I was pretty poor, I think I loved the poetry I read so much and was so grateful to publishers like Jargon and stores like City Lights (which then had tables and comfortable chairs and ashtrays in the basement) that I couldn't bring myself to do so. (Signed books, to me, become more artifact than text, making them harder to write in . With the signature I seem to lose some of the intimacy I might have with the text and that is extremely important for me. I love how Bernadette Mayer signed books during at least one period, with a gold stamp pad and her thumbprint in gold, but I never asked her to sign one for me.) -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of steve russell Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:25 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Steal this book in reference to may last post, I should add one fact: I didn't actually steal in the tens of thousands, but the books I did steal were probably worth 50 grand plus. I had my architecture period. Those are some pricey books. As for poetry, name it, I've stole it. I'm now mostly legit. I try to buy 1st editions, get the author's signature and sell. If I like the author, I'll have him sign at least two copies so I can keep one for myself. I've got signed first editions from the poet laureate going back 2 decades. If the author is dead, a signed 1st is more valuable. The thought has occurred to me to set up an author hit list, you know, get real serious about "the business." "J. Lehmus" wrote: two e.e. cummings books from a library when i was a kid. Paid for them afterwards, though. So i'm not sure if that qualifies as stealing - jukka On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? > > mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:11:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <0AEED599-AA60-4CC4-96AE-29781E95BC32@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The found has always been my approach to everything. The only things i broke that code for were money and dope. Between the two, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars going to feed the monkey's tapeworm. Never enough of either money or dope to keep the man inside satisfied. The only two books i stole it wasn't consciously done. The first stolen book was the Penguin bi-lingual Rimbaud, in a huge bookstore somewhere in London. My brother and I--aged 13 and 16 -- were living in the trees and leaf piles in Hyde Park in September, so anything to do to warm up, dry out the clothes a bit and relax was welcome. We'd hitched a ride from Dover to the City with a swinging young couple who gave us each two long bars of pure black hash, opiated. The whole time in England we were stoned. My brother was growing petulantly impatient with me reading for so long. He wouldn't shut up. Finally I got up and followed him, cursing loudly in dialect--straight out the door, passing the registers on the way. Stopping at the street corner to light cigarettes, I found the book still in my hand. My brother stared at me, shocked. "I can't help it if it won't let go of my hand," I said. He was very insulted--he thought i was using the book as a comment on himself. Fortunately the light changed before we came to blows. The other time was very similar. Back in Paris, we went to American express to find out if there was any mail. There were racks of new American paperbacks, a shock to see after so long. A profusely illustrated paperback of the film of Bob Dylan, Don't Look Back, with all the dialogue transcribed stared at me. I was squatting by the racks with it when my brother came over and said let's get out of here. I shoved the book in my pocket and took off after him. Outside he opened his hands. He had found well over a hundred dollars by someone's feet and taken them. The forgotten American paperback found looking in the pocket for matches was an added bonus. Something to read in the bug infested hotel. For once the the prodigious foreign spending of our country had mysteriously smiled on two of its strays. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:35:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <4714F05C.4030905@ilstu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable levertov, rukeyser, parra On 10/16/07 1:09 PM, "Gabriel Gudding" wrote: > By the way, I sent this query to imitationpoetics-l a week or so ago, > and Murat and Pierre and Alex Dickow, Wystan Curnow, Julian Semilian, > Peter Davis, and Joe Safdie gave a lot of good suggestions already, but > I need more. The specific texts/authors suggested so far: >=20 > -Jerry's Technicians of the Sacred > -Aimes Cesaire's _Return to My Native Land_ > -stuff in the Eda anthology > -Hazim Hikment > -Lale M=FCld=FCr's poem "Waking to Constantinople," which, Murat remarked, > "caused a riot when the poet read it in a public park and was booed off > stage. Her vision of Istanbul as a two thousand year old city where the > five hundred year old Ottoman rationality is superimposed on a fifteen > hundred year of Byzantine dream world demanding a new synthesis was a > too disturbing an idea for the ultra nationalists and Islamic > fundementalists in the audience. It is an incredible poem of the kind I > think you are looking for" > -Murat also recommended k. Iskender's souljam > -Laurence Sterne's curse in Tristram Shandy > -Lyrical Ballads > -Early Adrienne Rich > -a book called _I Don't Have Any Paper, So Shut Up!_ > -Bob Dylan, like "subterranean homesick blues" and "it's alright ma" and > "positively 4th street" and "idiot wind" > -Helene Cixous > -Robert Bly's 60s mojo > -the 1918 Dada manifesto > -BLAST > -Rimbaud > -Cendrars' Prose of the Transiberian > -Jacques Prevert's poem about the Kaiser with a finger up his ass > -Leon Gontran Damas' _Pigments_ > -Shelley's "England in 1819" > -Neruda's "Canto General" > -Jack Hirshman's entire ouevre > -Dorn's _North Atlantic Turbine_ >=20 > Gabriel Gudding wrote: >> I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and >> would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog >> description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, >> what texts would you use: >>=20 >> "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a >> sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read >> poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired >> assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have >> become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of >> Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode >> of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic >> and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all >> about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the >> world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, >> nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social >> speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult >> and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore >> the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the >> other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and >> love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach >> poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a >> collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be >> fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special >> beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very >> real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our >> world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to >> popes to cops to students and professors." >>=20 >> help? >>=20 >> Gabe >> ---------------------------------- >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com >> ---------------------------------- >> Gabriel Gudding >> Department of English >> Illinois State University >> Normal, Illinois 61790 >> 309.438.5284 (office) >>=20 >>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 20:29:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: if you were teaching this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Second that about Baraka...of course his most recent charting in that regard (post WTC) many found extremely vexing...Eileen Myles (hell she even ran for President, she got my vote!) is the opposite of fear and is pretty much a one person revolution....you have a lot of good stuff already I see by your follow-up posts....i'm sure someone said Ginsberg a million years ago.....Anne Waldman has some good curses and public purpose poems...i like the one where she tries to dry up the senate's genitals...was very unfortunate Comedy Central chose that unflattering angle to run that clip of her in a negative way a few years back...she is a beautiful woman....that irked....Babi Yar by Yevtushenko sort of riled the government in its day, didn't it...if you are going to go into ancient religious texts things like Inanna are a good source...the Book of the Dead....Catullus obviously....what about inflammatory poetry like John Brown's Body...a lot of this merges into song of course.... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:12:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: witz Subject: Salerno and Towle Reading in NYC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mark your calendars: Thursday, October 18, 2007, 8:00 p.m. The Writer's Voice Visiting Author Series Mark Salerno & Tony Towle West Side YMCA =97 The George Washington Lounge 5 West 63rd Street (between Central Park West & Broadway) NYC 212-875-4124= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:47:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz Subject: Society and Sensoria: Books at the Speed of the Senses Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Call for Papers: Society and Sensoria: Books at the Speed of the Senses =93=85for the skin is faster than the word=94 =96Brian Massumi, Parables for the Virtual The 10th Biennial Pyramid Atlantic Book Arts Fair and Conference November 2008, in the Washington DC area The intent of this conference is to advance a critical language for =20 artists=92 books that emphasizes both sensory-based and social =20 perspectives. Considering our societal trajectory for electronic =20 communication, as well as the increasing speed through which we =20 correspond by electronic means, we see the field confronted with the =20 following questions: What is artistic communication, and what is its =20 place or role in society? Are the uses of slower, =93handmade,=94 or =20 historical processes, often involved in the production of books, an =20 emerging form of protest or a simple refusal of technological change? =20= How are books resisting or embracing the rapidly paced exchange of =20 information? What do the often slow, time-consuming methods =20 surrounding the production and reception of artists=92 books mean for =20= an electronic society where the distribution and intensity of sensory =20= stimuli appear to be shifting? How is the reception of artists=92 =20 books, and the literacy they promote, affected by a potential sensory =20= shift into areas beyond the visual, in a society still dominated by =20 visual imagery? Are artists=92 books a reaction against, or a =20 reinforcement of, what we might call an overly visualized society? =20 How does our sense of touch relate to the predominately visual =20 language of artists=92 books? What is our phenomenological =20 understanding of artists=92 books into a context of an expanded = sensorium? We are looking for papers and creative panels committed to rethinking =20= artists=92 books as socially synthesized media devices with themes that =20= foreground speed, touch and rhythm. We invite artists, writers, =20 critics, publishers, activists, students, and educators, to =20 articulate how we experience books under the particular conditions of =20= handling, reading, and viewing, in a context of social =20 interconnection and difference. We encourage presentations from, but not limited to, the following =20 areas: artists=92 books, visual and performing arts, visual and =20 cultural studies, visual anthropology, cognitive science, sociology, =20 analytic philosophy, comparative literature, literary theory, =20 linguistics, political science and activism. The following are examples of potential topics. Presenters, however, =20= are in no way limited by them: =B7 Speed of space and rhythm in books =B7 Haptic interface and books =B7 Phenomenology of artists=92 books =B7 Embodiment and books =B7 Devotion to craft as content =B7 Time-consumption and memory =B7 E-flux versus paper permanence =B7 Techno culture as a site of confrontation with books =B7 Synthesis of electronic information into non-electronic books The conference runs in tandem with a biennial fair for well-known and =20= emerging artists, publishers and dealers in the field of artists=92 =20 books. We intend to create synergy between the fair and conference =20 by extending lines of communication between the various parties =20 involved in the fair and will make special effort to link books =20 exhibited in the fair to the conference presentations. We encourage =20 conference presenters to consider such a link as they develop their =20 papers. Please send abstracts of no more than 500 words by JANUARY 15, 2008 to: Tate Shaw and Ward Tietz pyramidatlantic08@gmail.com With your proposal, please include a current CV. The conference will provide a modest honorarium, though we strongly =20 encourage participants to apply for funding in their home regions and/=20= or through institutions with which they are affiliated. Please do not =20= hesitate to contact us if you have any questions. Pyramid Atlantic Conference Committee http://www.pyramidatlanticartcenter.org/= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:19:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline My version of stealing is catching a second movie in a multiplex, which I don't bother to do any more. Ciao, Murat On 10/16/07, Diane DiPrima wrote: > > Many, many, back in the day when I was poor in NYC. Never from small > bookstores=8Bmany of which were owned by friends. > > My best score was in my sophomore year when I knew for sure I was droppin= g > out of Swarthmore. I went into the bookstore and piled up the Cantos, > Personae, ABC of Reading, Dylan Thomas, cummings, Williams, Auden, oyce, > whatever was available, and put it all on my college bill. It came to ove= r > two hundred dollars, which was a fortune in 1953. When I didn=B9t go back= to > school my parents decided to disown me so they felt they shouldn=B9t have= to > pay the bill. It remained unpaid for 30-plus years. I finally caught up > with > it in the 1980s sometime. But in 1953, as soon as I had found my own plac= e > and unpacked I read the Cantos cover to cover, skimming what I didn=B9t > understand. They changed my world. I still have that edition, which ends > with Canto 84. > > Diane di Prima > > > > From: steve russell > Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:33:56 -0700 > To: > Subject: Re: Steal this book > > At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. Fortunately, thi= s > has changed, but not necessarily because I've grown morally. I've simply > discovered libraries that sell books on the cheap, and I've taken to > checking out books as well. I did have some ethics as I almost never stol= e > from small independent stores. I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any o= f > the large chain stores. During my twenties when I lived off of beer, > tobacco > & weed and had the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my > Steal another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of > thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world class > thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has ever > stolen a poetry book? > > mIEKAL aND > wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > > > > Great news! They're stealing our books! > > FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to > help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented > at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. > > Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists > of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set > up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. > > "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia > Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag > newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- > language books this year. > > "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- > seller lists," Hanssen added. > > The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An > Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, > featured among the mainly German titles on the list. > > More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. > There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries > presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. > > > > --------------------------------- > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, > news, photos & more. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:24:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Space both, not both, streets, noise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Space both, not both, streets, noise Begin with an origin O = (01,02,03,...0N), coordinates in dim N Euclidean space; each sector has an N-1 flat w/ total of 2^N; consider these open sets separated by N-2 flats... bounded by... Each N-1 flat coheres intern- ally; the O is isolated - there are rumors of O... unreachable, a kind of central core, mythos, radio radio. The space is T0,1,2 not T3,4,5; no open set contains O, let's define it that way. O is countable, phenomenologic- ally O is unaccountable - now think numerous points on the N-2 separating flats - give these rational coordinates, finite number of them - they're wanderers among the riches of the world, peer over barriers, simply unreachable - organisms live and talk within the open set - they're no boundaries as far as they know - only rumors - not of boundaries but of those numerous points - call them {X} - {X} forms a set - the set sits on orthogonal roads of sorts, easy communication among themselves through the origin O - they don't see anything though - maybe they're the grit of the world,* the fasteners - maybe they guard the potential well of the open sets - open sets are far too fragile here - there's something lacking with them - a certain hardness, inertness - but {X} makes up for that... http://www.asondheim.org/both.mp3 http://www.asondheim.org/notboth.mp3 http://www.asondheim.org/streets.mp4 * Something should be added here concerning the dim-3 space of SL, the projection from 3D -> 2D, the visual representation of time (trails), the closed (bounded) spaces that are open (unbounded, asymptotic) spaces from the viewpoint of the avatar (hence the 'cycling' as one tries to leave the game-space). And that there might be points, point-sets outside the game- space, inaccessible, nonetheless, metaphorically, viewpoints into game communication, forbidden areas, points like telephones or bugs, holes in and out of other dimensions. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:35:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Opera Cabal Festival in Chicago this Weekend! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This weekend in Chicago: Opera Cabal presents DELUSIONS: A Festival of New Opera, Music, Dance and Theater at the Zhou B Art Center, First Floor Gallery 1029 W 35th St. full information and schedule at http://operacabal.blogspot.com Among the performers will be the Nonsense Company, presenting "Great Hymn of Thanksgiving" (for three virtuoso speaker-percussionists around a dinner table setup, with texts from Iraq war news reporting, invented folktales, the Army prayer manual, and the poetry of Rae Armantrout) and "Conversation Storm" (a formally strange play dissecting recent U.S. policies on torture while turning the effects of torture back on the categories of time, place, and character), a pairing which recently won the "Best New Play" award at the San Francisco Fringe Festival. There's plenty of time to see and hear fantastic new performances while sandwiching in the City Visible reading as well! Hope to see you there. all the best, Andy Gricevich http://www.princemyshkins.com/nonsensecompany.html http://ndgwriting.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:39:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate Dorward Subject: New book from Trevor Joyce: What's In Store MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A little e-flyer for Trevor's new book.... -- all best --N * WHAT'S IN STORE: Poems 2000-2007 A new collection by Trevor Joyce co-published by The Gig & New Writers' Press _What's in Store_ is Trevor Joyce's first full-length book since the publication of his collected poems, _with the first dream of fire they hunt the cold_ (2001). For this volume, the author has shaped eight years' worth of work -- individual poems, extended sequences, translations from the Irish, Chinese and other languages -- into a continuous booklength structure. These poems find Joyce reaching out towards a jarringly wide range of styles and voices, from the tart lyricism of his workings of European folksongs to the ferociously dense collage/inscription of "STILLSMAN." Brought together as a book, the poems take on further meanings: _What's in Store_ is at once a Borgesian guide to the history, customs and scientific discourse of an unknown country, and an Oulipian textual machine, whose workings by turns terrify and exalt. "This is one of my favorite poets anywhere. His poems have the clear, austere and impersonal ring of great translations. They are archetypal, they are strange." --Fanny Howe A cover shot & a selection of poems from the book may be found at http://www.ndorward.com/poetry/books/joyce_whatsinstore.htm * 320pp, 5.5" x 8.5", perfectbound; ISBN 978-0-9735875-3-1. $20 CDN/US (includes postage in North America) £16 / 23 euro (includes airmail overseas). Make out cheques to Nate Dorward (not "The Gig" or "NWP"). Copies are also available in the UK/Ireland from New Writers' Press (contact vertor AT-SYMBOL gmail FULLSTOP com) or from SPD Books (www.spdbooks.org). * Trevor Joyce was born in 1947 in Dublin, Ireland. With the poet Michael Smith, he co-founded New Writers' Press and the poetry magazine _The Lace Curtain_, key channels for modernist and avant-garde writing in Ireland in the 1960s and 1970s. His publications include _The Poems of Sweeny Peregrine_ (NWP, 1976), a version of the Irish _Buile Suibhne_; _stone floods_ (NWP, 1995); _Syzygy_ (Wild Honey, 1998); and _with the first dream of fire they hunt the cold: A Body of Work 1966-2000_ (NWP/Shearsman, 2001). He has lived in Cork since 1984. * The author is currently on a reading tour of North America in connection with the book's appearance: Oct. 18, 19:30, Miami University, Oxford, Ohio Oct. 23, 19:00, Cambridge, MA, Pierre Menard Gallery (up Arrow St. from Cafe Pamplona), 10 Arrow Street Oct. 24, 19:00, Providence, RI, McCormack Family Theater, Brown Campus Oct. 25, 20:00, Toronto, ON, Mercer Union, 37 Lisgar St. * Nate Dorward 109 Hounslow Ave, Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ndorward@ndorward.com // web: www.ndorward.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:19:22 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Jones Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The Poems of William Blake, edited by Yeats. It was covered with dust On 10/16/07, Diane DiPrima wrote: > > Many, many, back in the day when I was poor in NYC. Never from small > bookstores=8Bmany of which were owned by friends. > > My best score was in my sophomore year when I knew for sure I was droppin= g > out of Swarthmore. I went into the bookstore and piled up the Cantos, > Personae, ABC of Reading, Dylan Thomas, cummings, Williams, Auden, oyce, > whatever was available, and put it all on my college bill. It came to ove= r > two hundred dollars, which was a fortune in 1953. When I didn=B9t go back= to > school my parents decided to disown me so they felt they shouldn=B9t have= to > pay the bill. It remained unpaid for 30-plus years. I finally caught up > with > it in the 1980s sometime. But in 1953, as soon as I had found my own plac= e > and unpacked I read the Cantos cover to cover, skimming what I didn=B9t > understand. They changed my world. I still have that edition, which ends > with Canto 84. > > Diane di Prima > > > > From: steve russell > Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:33:56 -0700 > To: > Subject: Re: Steal this book > > At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. Fortunately, thi= s > has changed, but not necessarily because I've grown morally. I've simply > discovered libraries that sell books on the cheap, and I've taken to > checking out books as well. I did have some ethics as I almost never stol= e > from small independent stores. I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any o= f > the large chain stores. During my twenties when I lived off of beer, > tobacco > & weed and had the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my > Steal another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of > thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world class > thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has ever > stolen a poetry book? > > mIEKAL aND > wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > > > > Great news! They're stealing our books! > > FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to > help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented > at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. > > Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists > of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set > up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. > > "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia > Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag > newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- > language books this year. > > "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- > seller lists," Hanssen added. > > The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An > Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, > featured among the mainly German titles on the list. > > More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. > There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries > presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. > > > > --------------------------------- > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, > news, photos & more. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:51:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schneider Hill Subject: NOW AVAILABLE: NICO VASSILAKIS' TEXT LOSES TIME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NOW AVAILABLE: NICO VASSILAKIS' TEXT LOSES TIME =20 ManyPenny Press is pleased to announce the release of TEXT LOSES TIME by = Nico Vassilakis. This necessary work spans roughly 15 years of the = author's efforts in both textual and visual writing. It is Vassilakis' = first full-length book. =20 =20 TEXT LOSES TIME Afterword by Nick Piombino 188 pp. ISBN-10: 0-9798478-0-X ISBN-13: 978-0-9798478-0-6 =20 CONTACT AND ORDERING INFORMATION: =20 ManyPenny Press 1111 E. Fifth St. Moscow, ID 83843 =20 $15.95 + $3 postage Make checks payable to Crag Hill =20 Bookstores should contact Crag Hill at schneider-hill@adelphia.net to arrange for discounts. =20 If you would like to order on-line, go to: http://www.lulu.com/content/1233754 COMMENTS ON TEXT LOSES TIME: =20 "Part nested Minimalist cubes and part laser light that won't diverge = across distance, Nico Vassilakis' poetry seems to ask whether we are = primates at play on a baseball diamond of memory and desire beside = mural-lined public structures slipping toward infinite regression. =20 Richly iterative, these pairings and alphabets escape the mirror to = thrill us with variation and sting all forms of complacency. Vassilakis = extends Oulipian strategies: Perec references, lamellisections, = crystalline build-outs and transpositions, a scat of nonrepresentational = vocables, lettered whirlwinds giving speed for legibility, -- = "extracting the gem through layers of gauze" and, other times, lowering = a gem into a fold. =20 Can an argument between a machine that produces texts and "longhand into = tiny notebooks" wake us up? In pain, "the throbbing thumb" makes us = "attend to the living." =20 If Vassilakis revises the rock lyric "meet-the-new-boss, = same-as-the-old-boss" to "meet the solipsistic era. same as the old = solipsistic era," is treatment to be had in a bar, a science lab, or = will it reach us over the radio? Try a road trip, so "you can't afford = to blink, to be blind for even a second" going through a colander out = where dust is breeding and "glass traps lighting" like no scene you've = seen in quite this way. Through crevices, perforations, punctures, = piercings, pinholes, see neighborhoods as "that place where organized = sleeping happens." So, look for a faceted colony that "sometimes = congeals."" =20 --Deborah Meadows =20 "Nico Vassilakis' Text Loses Time unhinges the folds of the book and the = word; as the 'folded loose leafed sheets whiz past your ears' you can = hear the echoes of meaning. The words flake off the page like aged paint = leaving a patina of colour and meaning on the surface and a growing heap = of signification at our feet. Here the means of writing rise up and turn = against our expectation, lurching into new spaces. Letters become = tactile, meaning becomes rubbery, and both reading and writing become a = new collaboration." --derek beaulieu =20 SAMPLE OF WORK FROM "TEXT LOSES TIME":=20 FROM "THE SCAFFOLDING" =20 The Rhymes of Vellum =20 A boy or girl, Vellum, blows a few papers in the wind It answers noise = Hopping, hopped. Tapping, tapped Swim sweet twins swing twig Think = of losing, serendipity or the wings of a sentence He will get them, = but not tell you where they were I like to drink through my brother's = center A finger's rose begins A shadow grows down the sidewalk = Clapping, clapped It helps to rip this box open Sound harbor, sound = hole Blind rose is a very shape friend I want a shirt to visit my = slacks Moon noose soon loose A good look at the cookbook - lots of = o's - ghost epaulets on the shoulders of a paragraph Dishes mixes, = buses guesses I sit down to work; I draw with my right hand The = response sadly is never Living as wide as it gets Think sift You = could fault the long moth, the dog lost in soft fog, but it's the song's = cost, its crust I got frogs in my throat, a forehead throat Boris = said, "Your throat's red." Timothy hums a nail into the wood I run = uphill swimming The test isn't over The floor's hard The new girl = at school Can you look at a book without getting caught on a line? = Like radio, writing is a broadcast They found people in the mailbox = A huge gem in a cage Susan flips back to the glossary Only a certain = type of fastener The letter "R" in each corner of a page = Unexpectedly the middle is empty Next, write your best trick Most = banjo Odd pretty piece asleep A drum whisking discard into cream = In this way we raise our pigs on fire & Kenny is always six yards old = The donkey said, "Enough." The donkey said, "English." Dark thoughts = won't cure light sickness The ladder moved slightly throws the world = in disarray The teacher's a bird and flies out the window They had = found their clown center Art will say, "I like to pitch. What is your = name?" Art will say, "Hi, I'm Art. I like to pitch. What's your name?" = Slowly toward a large bird Paper hats, cats A lot of noise comes to = visit Long thin water in a line of people I called you once today to = say geese make a village of gold & both of my little friends like to = sing. Their secret voices are beautiful Spray Spray Spray =20 =20 AUTHOR'S STATEMENT: =20 This book intends to present both verbal and visual poetries as equal. = Though notions of poetics have shifted and swerved, what has stayed = solid throughout is that the alphabet, the word - however arranged - = contains, within it, dual significance. First, the proto-historic role = of the visual conveyance of represented fact. Second, the overriding = desire of human utterance to substantiate existence. In conjoining these = two models this book hopes to form a third, blurred value. Thought and = experience are factors that accrue, while staring and writing help = resolve and conclude. Text itself is an amalgam of units of meaning. As = you stare at text you notice the visual aspects of letters. As one = stares further, meaning loses its hierarchy and words discorporate and = the alphabet itself begins to surface. Shapes, spatial relations and = visual associations emerge as one delves further. Alphabetic bits or = parts or snippets of letters can create an added visual vocabulary = amidst the very text one is reading. One aim, to this end, is to merge = and hinge visual and textual writing into workable forms. This book = collects some of these experiments. =20 AUTHOR BIOGRAPHY: =20 Nico Vassilakis was born in New York City in 1963. He has co-written and = performed a one-man play about experimental composer Morton Feldman. = Vassilakis is co-founder and curator for the Subtext Reading Series and = editor of Clear-Cut: Anthology (A Collection of Seattle Writers). He has = been a guest-editor of WOS#35: Northwest Concrete and Visual Poetry and = his visual poetry videos have been shown worldwide at festivals and = exhibitions of innovative language arts. In 1998, Vassilakis = co-produced, with Rebecca Brown, a 24-hour "Gertrude Stein-a-thon." His = work has appeared in numerous magazines, including Ribot, Caliban, = Aufgabe, Chain, Talisman, Central Park and Golden Handcuffs Review. He = works for Fantagraphic Books and lives in Seattle with his son, Quixote. =20 Chapbooks:=20 Askew (bcc press), Stampologue (RASP), Orange: A Manual (Sub Rosa = Press), Diptychs: Visual Poems (Otolith), Pond Ring (nine muses books), = sequence (Burning Press), Enoch and Aloe (Last Generation Press), The = Colander (housepress), Flattened Missive (P.I.S.O.R. Publications), = Species Pieces (gong press), KYOO (Burning Press) and others. =20 DVD:=20 CONCRETE: Movies (Sub Rosa Press) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:31:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: MERITAGE PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MERITAGE PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT For more info: MeritagePress@aol.com www.meritagepress.com STAGE PRESENCE A Performing Arts Anthology Edited by Theodore S. Gonzalves ISBN-13: 978-0-9794119-3-9 ISBN-10: 0-9794119-3-9 Release Date: 2007 Price: $22.00 Pages: 208 Meritage Press is delighted to announce the release of a historic document:= =20 STAGE PRESENCE: CONVERSATIONS WITH FILIPINO AMERICAN PERFORMING ARTISTS,=20 Edited by Theodore S. Gonzalves, a musician and assistant professor of Amer= ican=20 Studies at the University of Hawai=E2=80=98i at Manoa. In celebration, Mer= itage Press=20 is offering a SPECIAL RELEASE OFFER (details at the end of this email). STAGE PRESENCE is a collection of essays and interviews with Filipino=20 American performing artists. Each of the chapters features critically accla= imed and =20 popular artists in their own right, who have also mentored hundreds of=20 dancers, comedians, theater artists and musicians of all genres. In this ra= re=20 collection, performers take time off stage to speak candidly about their cr= eative=20 processes, revealing personal frustrations and triumphs, while testifying t= o=20 the challenges of what it could mean to be an artist of Filipino descent=20 working and living in the United States.=20 Featuring: musicians Eleanor Academia, Gabe Baltazar Jr., Danongan=20 Kalanduyan; bandleader and poet Jessica Hagedorn; choreographers and dancer= s Joel=20 Jacinto, Alleluia Panis, and Pearl Ubungen; and theater artists Rem=C3=A9 G= refalda,=20 Allan Manalo and Ralph Pe=C3=B1a. The book also includes a thought-provokin= g=20 foreword by scholar and musician Ricardo D. Trimillos. Some ADVANCE WORDS speak to the project's significance: =E2=80=9CFusing history, culture, jazz, and art, Stage Presence is one big=20= happening=20 jam session featuring ten Filipino American performing artists rapping on=20 their craft, their process, their defiance to be boxed in by the=20 category-obsessed American market, and their hunger and struggles necessary= to stay true to=20 their vision, identity, and art.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 R. Zamora Linmark, author of Rolling the R=E2=80=99s, Prime Time=20= Apparitions and=20 Leche =E2=80=9CThis collection of interviews and reflections by many of the leadi= ng=20 Filipino American cultural workers demonstrates the range and vitality of F= ilipino=20 American performing arts =E2=80=93 an inspiring and dynamic range of practi= ces=20 encompassing everything from kulintang to head-banging heavy metal, from co= llege=20 PCNs to off-Broadway New York theatre, from the Bayanihan to site-specific=20 performance art. Stage Presence gives us a view rarely available to student= s,=20 scholars, and audiences: the winding paths through history and identity tha= t led=20 these groundbreaking artists into the spotlight.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Karen Shimakawa, author of National Abjection =E2=80=9CWhen the New York Times looks at Filipinos, it sees only house mai= ds and =20 cooks, copycats, and mimics. But when scholar and artist Theo Gonzalves look= s=20 at and talks with his compatriots, he sees stunningly original and creative= =20 thinkers who use an eclectic range of forms and methods to make art and perf= orm=20 culture. This book is dizzy and alive with the Filipino soul. Read at your=20 own risk!=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Karin Aguilar-San Juan, editor of The State of Asian America ************************* SPECIAL RELEASE OFFER: Meritage Press is pleased to offer a SPECIAL RELEASE OFFER through November= =20 30, 2007. For $16.00 for each book, you can obtain a copy of STAGE PRESENC= E,=20 a reduced rate from the book's retail price of $22.00=E2=80=94plus free=20 shipping/handling (an approximate $4.00 value) to U.S. addresses. Just send= a $16.00=20 check made out to "Meritage Press" to: Eileen Tabios Meritage Press 256 North Fork Crystal Springs Road St. Helena, CA 94574 For international orders, please contact us through MeritagePress@aol.com NOTE: This book would make for a special holiday present! You can order as= =20 many books as you wish at the SPECIAL RELEASE rate! NOTE #2: This anthology would be a great teaching textbook! ************************************** ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:51:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: WaBun Inini MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "We don't like your chicken feathers, your paint, your cheap Hollywood chants." --WaBun Inini,=20 Man of Dawn, Vernon Bellecourt, dead at 75, as Cleveland comes 1 game closer to being in the World Series... Gerald S. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 06:10:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Raymond Carver articles//re publishing drafts & well-known heavily edited versions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/books/17carver.html?ref=arts --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:15:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathleen Ossip Subject: Re: If you were teaching this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pound's cantos would fit the bill and let you show just how complex and knotty attempts at world-making can be... Kathy Ossip In a message dated 10/17/07 12:05:45 AM, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: > I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and > would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog > description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, > what texts would you use: > > "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a > sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read > poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired > assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have > become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of > Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode > of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic > and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all > about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the > world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, > nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social > speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult > and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore > the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the > other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and > love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach > poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a > collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be > fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special > beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very > real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our > world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to > popes to cops to students and professors." > > help? > > Gabe > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:35:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: correction re: N-dimensional sets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The beginning of the paragraph read: Begin with an origin O = (01,02,03,...0N), coordinates in dim N Euclidean space; each sector has an N flat w/ total of 2^N; consider these open sets separated by N-1 flats... bounded by... Each N flat coheres intern- ally; the O is isolated - there are rumors of O... unreachable, a kind of central core, mythos, radio radio. The space is T0,1,2 not T3,4,5; no open set contains O, let's define it that way. O is countable, phenomenologic- ally O is unaccountable - now think numerous points on the N-1 separating flats - give these rational coordinates, finite number of them - they're wanderers among the riches of the world, peer over barriers, simply unreachable - (This is what happens when you write totally exhausted and somewhat sick! - apologies, Alan) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:01:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <2aacc4130710160855y53e1b282j46acc530d0afdd27@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thomas McGrath, Letter to an Imaginary Friend. I need to reread it. Mary Kasimor midwest daisy wrote: Baraka's Somebody Blew Up America On 10/16/07, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > I wrote a course description for a mid-level undergraduate offering and > would like help, please, finding texts to live up to the catalog > description. Kin you help me? If you were going to teach this class, > what texts would you use: > > "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be focusing on what a > sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We will instead read > poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed nations, inspired > assassinations, that have helped found religious orders, and that have > become the backbone of various cultures throughout the history of > Indo-European letters. That is to say, we will explore poetry as a mode > of critical consciousness, as a means of cultural critique and symbolic > and social action. We will, in short, "get down" with what poetry is all > about: loving, hating, helping, hurting, destroying, and re-making the > world. Among other things, will look at poetry's roots not as a private, > nostalgic, cherished mode of utterance, but as a forceful and social > speech event, paying particular attention to poetry's origins in insult > and curse and praise. Much of the class will, on the one hand, explore > the poetry of ritualized insult, the poetry of invective, and, on the > other, the poetry of praise and benediction, the poetry of liturgies and > love making and spiritual epiphany. So, we will fundamentally approach > poetry (by both the reading of it and the writing of it) not as a > collection of aesthetic artifacts (called poems) that are to be > fetishized as a rarified form of precious speech uttered by special > beings (called poets), but as a socially ubiquitous, very serious, very > real, and often RILLY RILLY fun, means of making and re-making our > world--a kind of "world making" that all people do, from children to > popes to cops to students and professors." > > help? > > Gabe > ---------------------------------- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------- > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, Illinois 61790 > 309.438.5284 (office) > --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:57:13 -0500 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: The 2nd Annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit THE 2ND ANNUAL CHICAGO CALLING ARTS FESTIVAL EVENT: During the 2nd Annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival, Chicago-based artists will showcase performances and projects that involve collaborations with artists living in other locations—here in the U.S. and in other countries worldwide. The collaborations between Chicago-based artists and those living elsewhere will be prepared, improvised, or a combination of both. For instance, a Chicago-based poet will be collaborating with a visual artist from Virginia, a Chicago-based ensemble will be collaborating with a musician from New York, and so on. Some of the performances will involve live feeds between Chicago and elsewhere. Artists involved with Chicago Calling work in a range of media, including music, painting, photography, poetry, dance, and so on. The festival’s participants will include Lance Adams, Christopher Alexander, Rheim Alkadhi, Karla Amour, Heidi Arnold, Alpha Bruton, Jerome Bryerton, Orin Buck, Vittorio Carli, Asimina Chremos, Craig Christie, Janina Ciezadlo, Larry O. Dean, Leonard De Montbrun, Maria De Vecchi, Julie Downey, Jeff Elder, Eric Elshtain, Bela Emerson, Douglas Ewart, David A. Geary, Jean Giroux, Daniel Godston, Jon Godston, Guillermo Gregorio, Camille Guthrie, Ted Hardin, Elizabeth Harper, Paul Hartsaw, Paige Haxton, Marian Hayes, Lisa Hemminger, Alan Emerson Hicks, Lott Hill, Zan Hoffman, Clayton Horath, David Harrison Horton, Clifton Hyde, Hamadal Issoufou, Zane Ivy, Susen James, A.D. Jameson, Lisa Kaftori, Jennifer Karmin, Maggie Kast, Donna Kiser, Eric Leonardson, Francois le Roux, Jesse Levine, Toni Asante Lightfoot, Bill MacKay, Elizabeth Marino, Stefanie Marlis, Ryan “Shmedly” Maynes, Jayve Montgomery, Robin Morrissey, Sally Nash, Shelley Nation, Mike Nelson, Charlie Newman, Carol Ng, Zimbabwe Nkenya, Donna Pecore, Rob Pleshar, Chelcie C. Porter, Divik Ramesh, Matthias Regan, Timothy David Rey, Ed Roberson, Jon Steinhorst, Tushar Samant, Cathleen Schandelmeier, Jeremy Seligson, Joris Soeding, Chuck Stebelton, Gary Sykes, Yurily Tarnawsky, Sara Thompson, Basia Toczydlowska, Michelle Tupko, Duane Vorhees, Joel Wanek, Michael C. Watson, Christopher Welch, Stan West, Mars Williams, and others. Performances and presentations will occur in the following venues: 32nd&Urban, Café Mestizo, Chicago Temple, Elastic, Jean Dubuffet’s sculpture Monument with Standing Beast, Mess Hall, Northwestern University, Peter Jones Gallery, The Velvet Lounge, WNUR, and other venues. WHEN: Wednesday, October 24; Thursday, October 25; Friday, October 26; and Saturday, October 27 WHERE: 11:00 a.m.-1:00 p.m. on Wednesday, October 24 WNUR Northwestern University Evanston, IL 60201 847.866.9687 Mars Williams (saxophone) and Clifton Hyde (guitar) perform on Eric Ricks’ jazz show. WNUR is a non-commercial, listener-supported radio station broadcasting at a frequency of 89.3 MHz FM at a power of 7200 watts. The WNUR studios are located on the campus of Northwestern University in Evanston, IL and the station produces a signal, which can be heard by nearly 3 million potential listeners throughout Chicagoland. WNUR also streams on the internet via the website www.wnur.org to listeners all around the world. * * * * 7:30 p.m. on Wednesday, October 24 The Lab (room 105 in Louis Hall) 1877 Campus Dr. Northwestern University Evanston, IL 60201 www.northwestern.edu 847.866.9687 suggested donation: $5 artists at Northwestern University -- Asimina Chremos -- dance Ed Roberson -- poetry Mars Williams -- saxophone Clifton Hyde -- guitar Jerome Bryerton -- percussion Lisa Hemminger -- poetry (over the phone) Jon Godston -- soprano saxophone Paul Hartsaw -- tenor saxophone J. Otis Powell -- poetry (over the phone) Joel Wanek -- upright bass Bill MacKay -- guitar Jayve Montgomery -- woodwinds and percussion Dan Godston -- trumpet other performers TBA Groups of varying sizes (duos to large ensemble) are performing during this event. This event is being broadcast live on WNUR (89.3 FM, www.wnur.org). Thanks to WNUR, Michael Corsa and Michael Szajewski at Northwestern University for helping to make this event possible. * * * * 6 p.m. on Thursday, October 25 Peter Jones Gallery 1806 W. Cuyler St. Chicago, IL 60613 (773) 472-6725 www.peterjonesgallery.com suggested donation: $10 Timothy David Rey performs A Phone Play, in collaboration with Matt Riutta screening of ‘This is Our Club’: The History of Montgomery County, Maryland Chapter of Jack and Jill of America, Inc. (15 minutes). Written, directed and produced by Stan West and Yves Hughes, Jr. Patricia Lee, a former Oak Parker, is the associate producer. Sara Thompson performs a movement piece, in collaboration with Paige Haxton (mixed media) performance with Eric Leonardson (springboard, electronics) and Bela Emerson (cello) performance of Sign of the Times, a play by Jeffrey Helgeson and Clayton Horath * * * * 9 p.m. on Thursday, October 25 The Velvet Lounge 67 E. Cermak Ave. Chicago, IL (312) 791-9050 admission: $10 first set: Zimbabwe Nkenya -- upright bass Douglas Ewart -- saxophones, didgeridoo second set: Zimbabwe Nkenya -- upright bass and African Mbira Douglas Ewart -- saxophones, didgeridoo Ed Roberson -- poetry Mike Nelson -- trumpet, conch shells and hand drums Alpha Bruton will be painting during tonight’s performance. * * * * 5 p.m. onwards on Friday, October 26 BEAST POEM performance by Jennifer Karmin Part 1: at Jean Dubuffet’s sculpture Monument with Standing Beast located in front of the James R. Thompson Center 100 W. Randolph Street Part 2: at the Clark/Lake train station * * * * 7 p.m.-midnight on Friday, October 26: Elastic 2830 N. Milwaukee, 2nd Fl. Chicago IL 60618 www.elasticrevolution.com (773) 772-3616 suggested donation: $10, $8 for students performance by Asimina Chremos (dance) and Chuck Stebelton (poetry) broadcast of Eric Leonardson and Anna Friz’s Dancing Walls Stir the Prairie screening of two short films by Jon Steinhorst -- Fiction and Snapshot Desiring-Machines Jerome Bryerton -- percussion Paul Hartsaw -- tenor saxophone Clifton Hyde -- guitar screening of two short films by Ted Hardin -- Long Distance and Fire of Life Divik Ramesh reads selections of his poetry, via Google Talk. Musicians here at Elastic perform with Divik. Thaumatrope Guillermo Gregorio -- clarinets and alto sax Joel Wanek -- upright bass Jayve Montgomery -- woodwinds, percussion Dan Godston -- trumpet, percussion David Harrison Horton -- poetry other performances TBA * * * * 10 a.m.-3 p.m. on Saturday, October 27: Café Mestizo 1646 W. 18th St. Chicago, IL 60608 (312) 421-59201 http://www.cafemestizo.com/ admission: free Duane Vorhees (poetry) and Chicago musicians Jeremy Seligson (poetry) and Basia Toczydlowska (visual art) Janina Ciezadlo (poetry) and artwork by Iraqi artists A.D. Jameson (poetry) Harry Ross (poetry) and Alan Emerson Hicks (sculpture) Lance Adams (poetry) Heidi Arnold (poetry) Karla Amour (poetry) Susan James (poetry) and Susan Burg (poetry) Elizabeth Harper (poetry) and Ryan “Shmedly” Maynes (music) Vittorio Carli (poetry) and Carol Curtis Magri (visual art) George Bailey (guitar & vocals) and Carl Spight (percussion), in collaboration with Hamadal Issoufou (guitar) * * * * 3-7 p.m. on Saturday, October 27 32nd&Urban 3201 S. Halsted St. (312) 846-6569 http://www.myspace.com/32ndurban admission: free Michael Watson (poetry) Leonard De Montbrun (poetry), collaborating with Zane Ivy (poetry) Shelley Nation (poetry) and Jeff Elder (music) Cathleen Schandelmeier (poetry), Francois le Roux, and Craig Christie Toni Asante Lightfoot (poetry) and Mankwe Ndosi (voice) Rachel Javellana (poetry) and Nora Bonner (poetry) Charlie Newman (poetry) and Zan Hoffman (poetry) Marian Hayes (poetry) Larry O. Dean (poetry) and Ken Rasak (film) Maggie Kast (poetry) and Sally Nash (visual art) Mario (poetry) Christopher Welch (poetry) Kay Bradford (poetry) Wayne Allen Jones (poetry) Robin Morrissey and Maria De Vecchi (experimental fiction / co-translation) Donna Pecore (poetry) Brother Anthony Teague of Taize (An Sonjae) reads selections of his translations of Korean poetry, via Google Talk. Donna Kiser (poetry) and Laura Evonne Steinman (visual art) * * * * 3-6 p.m. on Saturday, October 27: Mess Hall 6932 North Glenwood Avenue Chicago, IL 60626 (773) 465-4033 www.messhall.org messhall8@yahoo.com admission: free Lott Hill -- creative non-fiction Eric Elshtain (poetry) and Stefanie Marlis (poetry) Matthias Regan (poetry), Christopher Alexander (poetry), Topher Hemann (poetry), and Rheim Alkadhi (visual art) Jessie Levine (keyboards), Rob Pleshar (sousaphone), Jon Godston (soprano saxophone) Julie Downey (projected photography) & Carol Ng (movement) * * * * 8:00 p.m. on Saturday, October 27 The Chicago Temple 77 West Washington Street Chicago, IL 60602 312.236.4548 www.chicagotemple.org screening of Tampico, a film by Suree Towfighnia Elizabeth Marino (poetry) other performances TBA * * * * The 2nd Annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival is being organized by the Borderbend Arts Collective, a not for profit organization. Borderbend’s mission is to promote the arts, create opportunities for artists to explore new directions in and between art forms, and engage the community. Chicago Calling is part of Chicago Artists Month, the twelfth annual celebration of Chicago’s vibrant visual art community. In October, more than 200 exhibitions of emerging and established artists, openings, demonstrations, tours, open studios and neighborhood art walks take place at galleries, cultural centers and arts buildings throughout the city. For more information, call 312.744.6630 or visit www.chicagoartistsmonth.org. Chicago Artists Month is coordinated by the Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs and is sponsored by the Chicago Office of Tourism with additional support from 3Arts. The 2nd Annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival is partially funded by a grant from Poets & Writers Magazine. For more information about Chicago Calling, please visit www.chicagocalling.org or contact info@chicagocalling.org. You can also call Daniel at 312.543.7027. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:57:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Evan Munday Subject: Rachel Zolf and Matt Henriksen at the Poetry Project Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Dear members, On Monday, October 22nd, Rachel Zolf (Human Resources) and Matt=20 Henriksen (Is Holy) read at New York's Poetry Project at St. Marks=20 Church. Rachel Zolf=92s newest collection of poetry, Human Resources, was=20 released in spring 2007 by Coach House Books. Her previous collections=20= are Masque, which was shortlisted for the 2005 Trillium Book Award for=20= Poetry, and Her absence, this wanderer. Zolf lives in Toronto and was=20 the founding poetry editor of The Walrus magazine. Here are just some of the reviews of Human Resources: =91An archaeologist of language, Rachel Zolf asks questions, or just=20 maybe tricks the language into asking them for her, and for us, that we=20= would never think to pose ... There are riches [in Human Resources] not=20= previously imagined.=92 =96 Ron Silliman 'Situationist d=E9tournement meets kabbalistic anti-capitalist = procedural=20 writing; aka The Coach House Guide to How to Fright Poems that Really=20 Torque in 90 days funny slack guaranteed.' =96 Charles Bernstein =91In this bad-mouthing and incandescent burlesque, Rachel Zolf=20 transforms a necessary social anger into the pure fuel that takes us to=20= =93the beautiful excess of the unshackled referent.=94 We learn = something=20 new about guts, and about how dictions slip across one another,=20 entwining, shimmering, wisecracking. For Zolf, political invention=20 takes precedent, works the search engine.=92 =96 Lisa Robertson 'It's a language experiment, a bit of office thievery, a sleight of=20 hand, and gorgeously executed. I have had the pleasure of hearing Zolf=20= read--certainly one of the finest readings I witnessed over the course=20= of my time in New York. Hear her if you can, and read it too.' =96 Sina=20= Queyras 'Cultural heavies from Socrates to the Harvard Business Review join a=20 rush of impersonal voices that comment, Greek tragic-like, on the=20 violence just under the codes we use to keep modernity moving. A=20 profound exploration of how euphemism, bureaucratic argot, and numbers=20= in certain combinations enabled the twentieth century. Zolf's hope,=20 finally, is with encryption; the possibility of being, through poetry,=20= the thing the machines can't read ... I wouldn=92t miss her work however=20= it finds you.=92 =96 Rodney Koeneke 'Zolf's work feels poetic to me by virtue of never deserting its=20 poetics of negativity, but at the same time never resting on a false=20 conviction that negativity will do all its own work. She does not=20 wallow in cultural bankruptcy for shock value, nor does she attempt to=20= get past all the cheapness to a pure poetic space of value.' =96 K. = Silem=20 Mohammad The Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church featuring Rachel Zolf and Matt Henriksen Monday, October 22, 2007 St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th Street New York, NY 8:00 p.m. $8 ($7 for students and seniors, $5 for members) We hope you can make it! Yours, Evan ------------------------------ Evan Munday Publicist Coach House Books 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 416.979.2217 evan@chbooks.com October 24th is the Coach House Books 2007 Fall Launch! Stones Place, 1255 Queen Street West 8:00 p.m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:09:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <433583.96592.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the late sixties I stole a copy of Abbie Hoffman's STEAL THIS BOOK =20= from the eighth street bookshop in Manhattan. The impulse-steal had =20 not so much to do with that book or its title, but with the fact that =20= Abbie was discreetly patrolling the bookshop, in my opinion in order =20 prevent his title from coming true. =96 Pierre On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:37 AM, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > Stole Burroughs and Gysin's THIRD MIND and Creeley's > THE CHARM. Never regretted it, but then they > (honestly) 'changed' my life - at least till reading > Kafka's METAMORPHOSIS (which my wife, then simply 'my > girl,' kindly purchased for me). > > AGJ > > > > --- "J. Lehmus" wrote: > >> two e.e. cummings books from a library when i was a >> kid. Paid for them >> afterwards, though. So i'm not sure if that >> qualifies as stealing - >> >> jukka >> >> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> >>> Who here has ever stolen a poetry book? >>> >>> mIEKAL aND wrote: (even better than >> giving them away...) >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some =20 > of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:30:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Steal this book - Hong Kong In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710162019k67e25511o96ec2885a2c55e82@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just outside of Hong Kong, I managed to buy the complete series of the original Star Trek. Now, and please be somewhat kind, the collection costs about $150 Stateside (and I regard this series as part of my cultural heritage), but anyway, I was able to buy it in China - top quality - for about $3 (or 21 yuan). Sigh! Alex -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:53:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Baraban Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: <471446F8.3000908@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You could order a textbook that *does* devote a fair amount of space to the formal analysis of poetry, and ask the students to rip out the offending pages... Sorry to reference one of the worst movies ever made, but that's what I'm reminded of --- Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > "This is not a class in poetic forms. We will not be > focusing on what a > sonnet is or how many lines are in a villanelle. We > will instead read > poems that have incited revolutions, embarrassed > nations, inspired > assassinations, that have helped found religious > orders, and that have > become the backbone of various cultures throughout > the history of > Indo-European letters. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:58:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Come to Baltimore this Thursday, plus ... In-Reply-To: <002601c810a3$447fd0c0$63ae4a4a@yourae066c3a9b> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Towson Arts Collective presents The Cruellest Month women / Editing / Women Thursday, October 18th @ 7 P.M. Towson Arts Collective 410 York Road (lower level) Towson, MD 21204 410 337-0211 Reb Livingston is the author of Your Ten Favorite Words published by Coconut Books ( www.yourtenfavoritewords.com), editor of No Tell Motel (www.notellmotel.org ) and publisher of No Tell Books (www.notellbooks.org). With Molly Arden, she co-edits The Bedside Guide to No Tell Motel anthology series. Ana Bozicevic-Bowling is the author of two chapbooks: Morning News (Kitchen Press, 2006) and Document (Octopus Books, forthcoming). Find her recent poems in Octopus Magazine, The New York Quarterly, the Denver Quarterly, Absent, Saltgrass, In Posse, The Bedside Guide to No Tell Motel - Second Floor and the Outside Voices 2008 Anthology of Younger Poets. She coedits RealPoetik and works at PEN American Center in New York City. Amy King is the author of I’m The Man Who Loves You (BlazeVOX Books, 2007), Antidotes for an Alibi (BlazeVOX Books, 2005), and The People Instruments (Pavement Saw Press, 2003). She teaches Creative Writing and English at SUNY Nassau Community College, is the editor-in-chief for the literary arts journal MiPOesias, and is also a member of the Poetics List Editorial Board. Please visit http://www.amyking.org for more. ----- MiPOesias presents new work by Kazim Ali http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/ali_kazim.htm Bill Cassidy http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/cassidy_bill.htm Maxine Chernoff http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/chernoff_maxine.htm Paul Hoover http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/hoover_paul.htm Jim Knowles http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/knowles_jim_review1.htm Danielle Pafunda http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/pafunda_danielle.htm Stephanie Strickland http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/strickland_stephanie.htm Diane Wald http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/wald_diane.htm Enjoy! Amy King Editor MiPOesias http://www.mipoesias.com/ ----- http://amyking.org/blog/ ----- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:14:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: EPHEMERA FESTIVAL - Monday November 5th at DePaul - Pass it on! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tho this is mostly a zine show, they get fairly good traffic & there was a number of other literary presses there last year. Best part was the circuit bending table where they showed people how to take their old musical toys & keyboards & cross the circuits to make really groovy new instruments. ~mIEKAL Begin forwarded message: > From: "michelle aiello" > Date: October 17, 2007 10:04:59 AM CDT > Subject: Fwd: EPHEMERA FESTIVAL - Monday November 5th at DePaul - > Pass it on! > > ** Please forward to anyone you think would be interested, and > repost wherever you see fit. Thank you! ** > > Calling all zinesters, crafters, artists and D.I.Y. enthusiasts! > Ephemera Festival is a one-day event that recognizes and celebrates > D.I.Y. culture in all its forms. > There will be zines, comics and handmade crafts for sale, live > demonstrations, readings by independent writers and more. > Don't miss it! > > Date: Monday November 5th > Time: 11am to 5pm > Place: DePaul University Student Center > 2250 N. Sheffield Ave. (off the Fullerton red and brown lines) > Student Center phone: 773-325-7346 > > There are still a limited number of tables available. There are > also opportunities for zine making workshops and/or craft > demonstrations. If you can't get in this time, we are planning > another festival for April which will be much bigger. > > For information, contact ephemerafestival @ gmail . com > > Hope to see you there! > -- > www.indigozine.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:05:35 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Truscott Subject: 25 October: Trevor Joyce and the Max Middle Sound Project at Test (Toronto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear friends: Please come to the October installment of the Test Reading Series. 25 October 2007, 8:00 p.m. TREVOR JOYCE and THE MAX MIDDLE SOUND PROJECT (bios below) Mercer Union, A Centre for Contemporary Art 37 Lisgar St., Toronto Free (small donations toward the running of the series gratefully accepted) Contextual information on the readers will be posted soon at www.testreading.org (there's a link to map to Mercer Union there already). Please feel free to forward this message. Hope to see you at the reading, Mark ******************************************************************* Co-founder of the New Writers' Press in Dublin, TREVOR JOYCE has published eleven volumes of poetry, including The Poems of Sweeny Peregrine (1976), his working of the middle-Irish Buile Suibhne, and stone floods (1995), which was nominated for the Irish Times Literature Prize for Poetry. His most recent publications are with the first dream of fire they hunt the cold: A Body of Work 1966-2000 (NWP & Shearsman Books, 2001), the audio CD Red Noise of Bones (Coelocanth & Wild Honey Press, 2001), and, launching at Test, What's In Store: Poems 2000-2007 (The Gig/NWP, 2007). He has also published several papers on contemporary poetics, and has lectured and given public readings of his work throughout Ireland, the U.K. and the U.S.A. Joyce is a founder and director of SoundEye: The Cork International Poetry Festival and was a Fulbright Scholar for the year 2002-2003. In 2004 he was elected a member of Aosdána, the Irish Affiliation of Artists, and was the first writer to be awarded a fellowship by the Ballinglen Arts Foundation. Founded in 2004 and consisting of three prominent Ottawa-area artists, John Lavery, Max Middle and Jason Sonier, the MAX MIDDLE SOUND PROJECT is an interdisciplinary collaboration committed to the integration of poetry, sound poetry and music, incorporating elements of theatre and performance art as ancillary expression. The ensemble has performed in the Ottawa Fringe Festival, the Ottawa International Writers Festival and in the Dusty Owl, Tree and Grey Borders reading series. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:59:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: Chicago Review / Open House Comments: To: poetics@listhost.uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Chicago Review is having an open house on October 26! + + + + We invite you to the third floor of Lillie House, just east of main University of Chicago campus, to celebrate the launch of our autumn issue. The open house will begin at 7:30 PM and will feature a few yet to be named readers. There will also be drink and good cheer. CR's address is 5801 South Kenwood Avenue / Chicago Illinois 60637 --- at the corner of 58th & Kenwood in the heart of Hyde Park. Information about our autumn issue will be posted to CR's website soon --- http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/. The issue is out, though, and on its way to subscribers! We hope to see you at Lillie House. For more information about the event, e-mail chicago-review@uchicago.edu. More details to come --- but mark your calendar now! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Justin Katko Subject: Trevor Joyce & Mair=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9ad?= Byrne - Providence - Oct 24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To those in the Providence area, Trevor Joyce and Mair=E9ad Byrne will read their poetry, 7pm Wed Oct 24 McCormack Family Theatre (Fones Alley) Brown University flyer: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2095/1534740340_2564551835.jpg?v=3D0 It's a rare opportunity to catch Trevor in the States, and he's got a new collection out from The Gig called What's in Store - http://www.ndorward.com/poetry/books/joyce_whatsinstore.htm- in support of this he's on a reading tour of North America. Here are the dates: Oct. 18, 19:30, Miami University, Oxford, Ohio Oct. 23, 19:00, Cambridge, MA, Pierre Menard Gallery (up Arrow St. from Caf= e Pamplona), 10 Arrow Street Oct. 24, 19:00, Providence, RI, McCormack Family Theater, Brown Campus Oct. 25, 20:00, Toronto, ON, Mercer Union, 37 Lisgar St. * Bios Trevor Joyce was born in 1947 in Dublin, Ireland. With the poet Michael Smith, he co-founded New Writers' Press and the poetry magazine _The Lace Curtain_, key channels for modernist and avant-garde writing in Ireland in the 1960s and 1970s. His publications include _The Poems of Sweeny Peregrine_ (NWP, 1976), a version of the Irish _Buile Suibhne_; _stone floods_ (NWP, 1995); _Syzygy_ (Wild Honey, 1998); and _with the first dream of fire they hunt the cold: A Body of Work 1966-2000_ (NWP/Shearsman, 2001)= . He has lived in Cork since 1984. Mair=E9ad Byrne's previous publications include two poetry collections, *SO= S Poetry* (/ubu Editions 2007), and *Nelson & The Huruburu Bird* (Wild Honey Press 2003); three chapbooks, *An Educated Heart* (Palm Press 2005), *Vivas*(Wild Honey Press 2005), and *Kalends* (Belladonna* 2005). She is an Associate Professor of English at Rhode Island School of Design in Providence. With Ian Davidson, she is the co-manager of the listserv British & Irish Poets. Before immigrating to the United States in 1994, she was a journalist, playwright, arts centre director, and teacher in Ireland. * Hoping that plenty of you can make it out to Trevor's readings, and especially his gig with Mair=E9ad in Providence. ~ Justin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:58:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lcabri@UWINDSOR.CA Subject: Ron Silliman Handout & Event in Windsor 25 Oct 7:30PM C.A.W. Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron Silliman will be reading and discussing his and others? poetry as part = of the Transparency Machine Event Series, in the Ambassador Lounge, Salon=20 C, 2nd Floor, C.A.W. Student Centre, University of Windsor, Windsor,=20 Thursday 25th October, 7:30-9:00 PM. All welcome to this free public=20 event.=20 Silliman?s selection of texts and images, for his discussion that is=20 titled ?Recognizability,? are now available for download from News&Events=20 at .=20 Ron Silliman is author of over twenty-five poetry books, including the=20 completed 800+ page poem, The Alphabet, begun in 1979, and, just released, = The Age of Huts (compleat). Silliman has contributed massively and=20 uniquely, through a community of writers sometimes called the Language=20 School, to our understanding of how poetry articulates the contemporary=20 social world. He has written essays in poetics that have been, like his=20 poetry, widely influential. Silliman is renowned for a juxtapositional=20 method of writing he has termed "the new sentence," which takes Ezra=20 Pound's "ideogrammic" method in profoundly democratic directions. Silliman = is famed as a skillful editor (notably of the anthology In the American=20 Tree) and is today arguably the most influential poetry blogger in English = (his site of lively opinion and news, Silliman's Blog, < http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com> has received over 1,000,000 hits since=20 its August 2002 start). He currently lives in Philadelphia and works in=20 the computer industry, and has previously lived and worked in the San=20 Francisco area as a prison and tenant organizer, lobbyist, teacher,=20 college administrator, and editor of Socialist Review.=20 The Transparency Machine Event Series invites a poet to talk about his or=20 her work in the context of other texts selected by the poet. The series=20 provides a forum (with overhead projector!) for discussing the practice=20 and theory of writing and reading poetry -- including practices and=20 theories of prefixing poetry ("anti-"; "non-"), adjectivizing poetry=20 ("poetic"), and capitalizing poetry (first letter; letters at random).=20 Poetry prismatically refracts social, political, scientific, aesthetic=20 languages, transforming them into something exciting and strange. How does = poetic form do that? This series explores questions about the language of=20 poetry, offering readers and writers a multi-dimensional experience of the = shapes and sounds of the contemporary moment by inviting leading and=20 emerging innovative practitioners of the poetry art.=20 Silliman's Transparency Machine Event is co-sponsored by the Department of = English Language, Literature, and Creative Writing at the University of=20 Windsor, and the Department of English at Wayne State University. For=20 further information, please contact lcabri@uwindsor.ca.=20 Special Note: Ron Silliman will also be giving a free public=20 reading/performance with poet Tracie Morris on Friday, 26 October,=20 3:00-5:00 PM, in the Welcome Center Auditorium (Warren and Woodward=20 Avenues), Wayne State University, Detroit.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:36:03 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <0AEED599-AA60-4CC4-96AE-29781E95BC32@mwt.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT i do like that hakim bey. someone took off with my copy of immediatism. was it you, steve? :-) g On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, mIEKAL aND wrote: > I've had 6 copies of Hakim Bey's Temporary Autonomous Zone stolen > from our community's library over the past 15 years. Not poetry per > se, but a book about poetic terrorism. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:33 AM, steve russell wrote: > > > At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. > > Fortunately, this has changed, but not necessarily because I've > > grown morally. I've simply discovered libraries that sell books on > > the cheap, and I've taken to checking out books as well. I did have > > some ethics as I almost never stole from small independent stores. > > I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any of the large chain stores. > > During my twenties when I lived off of beer, tobacco & weed and had > > the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my Steal > > another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of > > thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world > > class thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). > > > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has > > ever stolen a poetry book? > > > > mIEKAL aND > > wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > > > > > > > > > Great news! They're stealing our books! > > > > FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to > > help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented > > at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. > > > > Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists > > of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set > > up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. > > > > "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia > > Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag > > newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- > > language books this year. > > > > "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- > > seller lists," Hanssen added. > > > > The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An > > Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, > > featured among the mainly German titles on the list. > > > > More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. > > There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries > > presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:02:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: FW: Take Action! Speak Out Against "Islamo-Facism Awareness Week"!//Coming to a Campus Near You Some Very Heavy Hitters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Islamo-Facism Awareness Week" --straight out of the daily Two Minutes of Hate in Orwell's 1984 A Who's Who of the Neo-Con Brigades Also on the agenda, not mentioned here, is an all out assault on Global Warming * * * * ** * * *Dear David,* * * *Take Action: Speak Out Against "Islamo-Facism Awareness Week" During the week of October 22-26, 2007, right-wing and neo-conservative political forces led by the David Horowitz Freedom Center are calling for "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week" events on campuses across the U.S. (for a list of campuses and speakers, see below). If this event is coming to your campus or neighborhood - and even if it's not - speak out against this racist assault on Muslims, Arabs, Arab-Americans, South Asians and anyone viewed as sympathetic towards those communities. While some people might dismiss the neo-conservatives as fringe elements who don't impact on U.S. policy, the truth is much more disturbing. They are part of an alliance of forces that work to maintain the war against Iraq, escalate the standoff with Iran into military conflict, and cement Israel's hold on the occupied Palestinian territories and violations of Palestinian human rights through a system of apartheid rule. The stakes are simply too high to ignore, and we should respond to the so-called "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week" - and to all such provocations - pro-actively, not defensively. To find out what action you can take on your campus and in your community and to read about what others are doing, click here. To learn more about the forces driving this agenda, read "Understanding Why Islamophobia is on the Rise," the analysis by Phyllis Bennis, fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies, and member of the U.S. Campaign's steering committee. By defending basic freedoms of thought, speech and belief, we underscore three simple messages: We stand for free speech, not hate speech. We stand for tolerance, not bigotry. We stand for education, not demagoguery. SPEAK OUT FOR FREE SPEECH, TOLERANCE, AND EDUCATION! "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week" speakers and venues: Berkeley -- Nonie Darwish, October 22 Brown -- Robert Spencer, October 24 Cal Poly -- Greg Davis, October 25 Cal State Fullerton -- Nonie Darwish Clemson -- Mike Adams, October 25 Columbia -- Phyllis Chesler, Ibn Warraq, Christina Hoff Sommers Columbia -- Sean Hannity, David Horowitz, October 26 DePaul -- Robert Spencer, October 25 Emory -- David Horowitz, October 24 George Mason -- Luanah Saghieh, Alan Nathan, October 22 Lawrence Univ. -- Jonathan Schanzer Maryland -- Michael Ledeen Michigan -- David Horowitz, October 23 Northeastern -- Daniel Pipes, October 24 Ohio State -- David Horowitz, October 25 Penn -- Rick Santorum, October 24 Penn State -- Rick Santorum, October 23 Rhode Island -- Robert Spencer, October 24 San Francisco State -- Melanie Morgan, October 24 Stanford -- Wafa Sultan Temple -- Rick Santorum, October 24 Tulane -- Ann Coulter, October 22 UC Santa Barbara - Dennis Prager, October 25 UC Irvine -- Ann Coulter UCLA -- Nonie Darwish, October 24 UCLA -- Frank Pastore, John Ziegler USC -- Ann Coulter, October 25 Virginia -- Frank Gaffney Washington -- Kirby Wilbur Washington -- Michael Medved, October 25 Wisconsin -- David Horowitz, October 22 * * * US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation DONATE| SUBSCRIBE| UNSUBSCRIBE ------------------------------ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! Get 'em! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:06:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <159236.77625.qm@web86014.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit there shd be an anthology about stealing On 10/16/07 5:23 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > I'm starting to feel pretty ethical compared to some on this list! As a > teenager, I stole a number of New Directions paperbacks from the book section > of Meyer Brothers department store in Paterson, NJ (although Paterson itself, > the very first ND book I ever read, I either bought or borrowed from the > library). But never since. > > mIEKAL aND wrote: I've had 6 copies of Hakim Bey's Temporary > Autonomous Zone stolen > from our community's library over the past 15 years. Not poetry per > se, but a book about poetic terrorism. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:33 AM, steve russell wrote: > >> At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. >> Fortunately, this has changed, but not necessarily because I've >> grown morally. I've simply discovered libraries that sell books on >> the cheap, and I've taken to checking out books as well. I did have >> some ethics as I almost never stole from small independent stores. >> I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any of the large chain stores. >> During my twenties when I lived off of beer, tobacco & weed and had >> the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my Steal >> another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of >> thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world >> class thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). >> >> Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has >> ever stolen a poetry book? >> >> mIEKAL aND >> wrote: (even better than giving them away...) >> >> >> >> >> Great news! They're stealing our books! >> >> FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to >> help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented >> at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. >> >> Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists >> of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set >> up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. >> >> "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia >> Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag >> newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- >> language books this year. >> >> "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- >> seller lists," Hanssen added. >> >> The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An >> Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, >> featured among the mainly German titles on the list. >> >> More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. >> There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries >> presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:08:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Get your complaint about Jesse Crockett MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Simply click here . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: if you were teaching this In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mr. C A Conrad On 10/16/07 8:29 PM, "W.B. Keckler" wrote: > Second that about Baraka...of course his most recent charting in that regard > (post WTC) many found extremely vexing...Eileen Myles (hell she even ran for > President, she got my vote!) is the opposite of fear and is pretty much a > one person revolution....you have a lot of good stuff already I see by your > follow-up posts....i'm sure someone said Ginsberg a million years ago.....Anne > Waldman has some good curses and public purpose poems...i like the one where > she tries to dry up the senate's genitals...was very unfortunate Comedy > Central > chose that unflattering angle to run that clip of her in a negative way a > few years back...she is a beautiful woman....that irked....Babi Yar by > Yevtushenko sort of riled the government in its day, didn't it...if you are > going to > go into ancient religious texts things like Inanna are a good source...the > Book of the Dead....Catullus obviously....what about inflammatory poetry like > John Brown's Body...a lot of this merges into song of course.... > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:19:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Trevor Joyce & Mair=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A9ad?= Byrne - Providence - Oct 24 Comments: To: justin.katko@GMAIL.COM, damon001@umn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Thanks Justin! I can see you took the bio from TALK POETRY (Miami = University Press 2007), actually my most recent book! GREAT FLYER! Mairead >>> Maria Damon 10/17/07 3:08 PM >>> aargh wish i cd be there, me hearties! Justin Katko wrote: > To those in the Providence area, > > Trevor Joyce and Mair=C3=A9ad Byrne will read their poetry, > > 7pm Wed Oct 24 > McCormack Family Theatre (Fones Alley) > Brown University > > flyer: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2095/1534740340_2564551835.jpg?v=3D= 0 > > It's a rare opportunity to catch Trevor in the States, and he's got a = new > collection out from The Gig called What's in Store - > http://www.ndorward.com/poetry/books/joyce_whatsinstore.htm- > in support of this he's on a reading tour of North America. Here are > the > dates: > > Oct. 18, 19:30, Miami University, Oxford, Ohio > > Oct. 23, 19:00, Cambridge, MA, Pierre Menard Gallery (up Arrow St. from = Cafe > Pamplona), 10 Arrow Street > > Oct. 24, 19:00, Providence, RI, McCormack Family Theater, Brown Campus > > Oct. 25, 20:00, Toronto, ON, Mercer Union, 37 Lisgar St. > > * > > Bios > > Trevor Joyce was born in 1947 in Dublin, Ireland. With the poet Michael > Smith, he co-founded New Writers' Press and the poetry magazine _The = Lace > Curtain_, key channels for modernist and avant-garde writing in Ireland = in > the 1960s and 1970s. His publications include _The Poems of Sweeny > Peregrine_ (NWP, 1976), a version of the Irish _Buile Suibhne_; _stone > floods_ (NWP, 1995); _Syzygy_ (Wild Honey, 1998); and _with the first = dream > of fire they hunt the cold: A Body of Work 1966-2000_ (NWP/Shearsman, = 2001). > He has lived in Cork since 1984. > > Mair=C3=A9ad Byrne's previous publications include two poetry collections= , *SOS > Poetry* (/ubu Editions 2007), and *Nelson & The Huruburu Bird* (Wild = Honey > Press 2003); three chapbooks, *An Educated Heart* (Palm Press 2005), > *Vivas*(Wild Honey Press 2005), and > *Kalends* (Belladonna* 2005). She is an Associate Professor of English = at > Rhode Island School of Design in Providence. With Ian Davidson, she is = the > co-manager of the listserv British & Irish Poets. Before immigrating to = the > United States in 1994, she was a journalist, playwright, arts centre > director, and teacher in Ireland. > > * > > Hoping that plenty of you can make it out to Trevor's readings, and > especially his gig with Mair=C3=A9ad in Providence. > > ~ Justin > > > =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:31:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Question about poems addressed to children MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was blogging about a particular poem that struck me for the way it simultaneously plays between the levels...i.e. the idea of poetry addressed TO children and at the same time seeing childhood from a distance...I was wondering if anybody knew of any other poems where the author is writing it to a child, but the poem is designed to be read in dual (or multifarious) ways....that is, the poem holds a certain charm for a child, but as the child grows he or she will most likely read it as a vastly more mature poem...I think the Palmer poem from Notes for Echo Lake is a classic example of this...but I was trying to think of others and I could remember reading such poems but could not pinpoint particular authors/poems....any suggestions? the following is from today's... _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) the poem by Elias appears there... I was reading around in Meddles into Preclusion, Che Elias's book, and was really drawn into this particular multipartite poem. I've always loved poems that ostensibly are written for children, especially when they are darkly freighted with adult fears, trauma and gravity--disguised lest the images hit childhood with full-force. It's almost a genre that's never been recognized. Michael Palmer had some very wonderful poems that would fall in this category (I'm thinking of poems like "Song of the Round Man" from Notes for Echo Lake which is dedicated "for Sarah when she's older.") "I am sad today said the sad-eyed man/ for I have locked my head in a Japanese box // and lost the key." There are ways of telling children things about the world, and there are ways to soften the blows. Isn't that the raison d'etre of fairy tales? I find poems of this sort (which are themselves rather like wise beings, wise guides in fairy tales, waiting to assist the dreamer/reader through the years) among the most touching poems, often. Elias doesn't explicitly state this is a poem of this sort, but it's how it struck me. Several of the sections are titled with names, perhaps of people (children?) they are addressed to, perhaps to let us know that they are portraits. Here are some excerpts that I think scramble the linguistic DNA of fairy tales very nicely. They seem to possess the key to magic language that children are usually given by the grace of birth, but which they somehow lose over the years... _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:26:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "e.g. vajda" Subject: radio show Comments: To: noisetext@yahoogroups.com, spidertangle@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hallo all! I'm posting a call for submissions for a new radio show I'm going to be producing on a local station in Prescott, AZ called Coyote Radio. The show will be called The Janitor's Closet and will be up and running sometime in November. Is a tangential growth spurt off of my reading series that has struggled to gain an audience for a year and a half. My series was called "in the footsteps of language" and while I got awesome writers and performers to come, most of the time it was a really small audience. So instead of trying to have people come here, I'm going to go the radio route-- which is better because the show will be available on Podcast. soooooo.. heres what I am looking for: experimental recordings of poetry, noise, sound, fluxus recordings, experimental music.... anything along those lines.. forward this on to any listserv or person that you think might be interested! Mp3s can be sent to egvajda [at] gmail [dot] com or cds can be sent to : grace vajda 147 n. alarcon st. prescott, az 86301 USA thanks for your continued generosity! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:59:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William, There are some by Thomas McGrath to his son Tomasito. There is Ben Jonson's "On My First Son" which is addressed directly to his deceased son. His "On My First Daughter" is however not an apostrophe. My next book, Rhode Island Notebook, out in November, is a 400+ pg poem addressed to my daughter Clio -- but the dedication to her at the front of the book indicates that it's to be read by her only when she is much older. Gabriel here's ben Farewell, thou child of my right hand, and joy ; My sin was too much hope of thee, lov'd boy. Seven years thou wert lent to me, and I thee pay, Exacted by thy fate, on the just day. Oh, could I lose all father now ! For why Will man lament the state he should envy? To have so soon 'scaped world's and flesh's rage, And if no other misery, yet age ! Rest in soft peace, and, asked, say, Here doth lie Ben Jonson his best piece of poetry. For whose sake henceforth all his vows be such As what he loves may never like too much. <> -- _______________________________________________________ RHODE ISLAND NOTEBOOK (Dalkey Archive Press, 2007) http://books.dalkeyarchive.com/book/each_book/397 ------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:24:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =B3Mother Goose=B2. Edward Lear. Lewis Carroll. Robert Lewis Stevenson. To name a few.=20 From: "W.B. Keckler" Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:31:03 EDT To: Subject: Question about poems addressed to children I was blogging about a particular poem that struck me for the way it simultaneously plays between the levels...i.e. the idea of poetry addressed TO=20 children and at the same time seeing childhood from a distance...I was wondering=20 if anybody knew of any other poems where the author is writing it to a child,=20 but the poem is designed to be read in dual (or multifarious) ways....that is, the poem holds a certain charm for a child, but as the child grows he or=20 she will most likely read it as a vastly more mature poem...I think the Palmer=20 poem from Notes for Echo Lake is a classic example of this...but I was trying=20 to think of others and I could remember reading such poems but could not pinpoint particular authors/poems....any suggestions? =20 the following is from today's... =20 _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) =20 the poem by Elias appears there... =20 =20 =20 I was reading around in Meddles into Preclusion, Che Elias's book, and was really drawn into this particular multipartite poem. I've always loved poems=20 that ostensibly are written for children, especially when they are darkly freighted with adult fears, trauma and gravity--disguised lest the images hit=20 childhood with full-force. It's almost a genre that's never been recognized= . Michael Palmer had some very wonderful poems that would fall in this category =20 (I'm thinking of poems like "Song of the Round Man" from Notes for Echo Lake=20 which is dedicated "for Sarah when she's older.") "I am sad today said the sad-eyed man/ for I have locked my head in a Japanese box // and lost the key."=20 There are ways of telling children things about the world, and there are ways=20 to soften the blows. Isn't that the raison d'etre of fairy tales? I find poems of this sort (which are themselves rather like wise beings, wise guides in=20 fairy tales, waiting to assist the dreamer/reader through the years) among the most touching poems, often. Elias doesn't explicitly state this is a poem=20 of this sort, but it's how it struck me. Several of the sections are titled with names, perhaps of people (children?) they are addressed to, perhaps to let =20 us know that they are portraits. Here are some excerpts that I think scramble=20 the linguistic DNA of fairy tales very nicely. They seem to possess the ke= y to magic language that children are usually given by the grace of birth, but=20 which they somehow lose over the years... _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:10:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nada Gordon Subject: K. LORRAINE GRAHAM and TAO LIN 10/20 BPC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Saturday October 20, 4:00-6:00 p.m. Segue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, one block above Houston K. Lorraine Graham is the author of three chapbooks, Terminal Humming (Slack Buddha), See it Everywhere (Big Game Books), and Large Waves to Large Obstacles (forthcoming from Take Home Project), and the recently released chapdisk Moving Walkways (Narrowhouse Recordings). She has just completed the extended manuscript of Terminal Humming. Tao Lin is the author of a novel, EEEEE EEE EEEE (Melville House, 2007), a story-collection, Bed (Melville House, 2007), and two poetry collections, You Are a Little Bit Happier Than I Am (Action Books, 2006), and the forthcoming Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy (Melville House, Spring 2008). We will start RIGHT ON TIME at 4 pm, so be there PROMPTLY PLEEZE! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:13:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Free Rice Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed (here's a simple online word game for word geeks--I haven't been able to get past 44) For each word you get right, they donate 10 grains of rice to a hungrey person through an international aid agency. http://www.freerice.com/index.php ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:06:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Public Talks - Schedule of Dalai Lama In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710162019k67e25511o96ec2885a2c55e82@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those unable to visit McLeod Ganj: --- Public Talk in Ithaca, New York, USA on October 9: His Holiness will give a talk on A Human Approach to World Peace at Barton Hall. Contact Website: www.namgyal.org Teaching in Ithaca, New York, USA on October 10: His Holiness will give a teaching on Geshe Langri Thangpa’s Eight Verses of Training the Mind (lojong tsikgyama) organized by the Namgyal Insitute. Contact Website: www.namgyal.org Teaching in New York City, USA on October 12 to 14: His Holiness will give teachings on Diamond Cutter Sutra and Nagarjuna's Seventy Verses on Emptiness at the Radio City Music Hall organized by the Tibet Center and Healing the Divide. Contact Website: www.dalailamany.org Public Talk in New York City, USA on October 14: His Holiness will give a public talk at the Radio City Music Hall organized by the Tibet Center and Healing the Divide. Contact Website: www.dalailamany.org Talk in Atlanta, Georgia, USA on October 20: His Holiness will participate in a Mind & Life Conference at Emory University. Contact Website: www.dalailama.emory.edu Teaching in Atlanta, Georgia, USA on October 21: His Holiness will give a teaching on Je Tsongkhapa’s Praise to the Buddha for His Discourses on Dependent Origination (tendrel toepa) at Emory University. Contact Website: www.dalailama.emory.edu Public Talk in Atlanta, Georgia, USA on October 22: His Holiness will give a public talk on Educating the Heart and Mind at Centennial Olympic Park. Contact Website: www.dalailama.emory.edu Teaching in Bloomington, Indiana, USA from October 24 to 26: His Holiness will give three-day teachings on Atisha's Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment (jangchup lamdron). Contact: Arjia Rinpoche, Tibetan Culutral Center, 3655 Snoddy Road, Bloomington, Indiana. Tel: (812) 331-0014/336-6807. Website: www.tibetancc.com Public Talk in Lafayette, Indiana, USA on October 26: His Holiness will give a talk on Cultivating Happiness at Purdue University. Contact: Todd Wetzel, Director of Convocations, Purdue University. Contact Website: www.purdue.edu/convos Public Talk in Bloomington, Indiana, USA on October 27: His Holiness will give a talk on Compassion: The Source of Happiness at the Mellencamp Pavillion. Contact: Arjia Rinpoche, Tibetan Culutral Center, 3655 Snoddy Road, Bloomington, Indiana. Tel: (812) 331-0014/336-6807. Website: www.tibetancc.com Public Talk in Ottawa, Canada on October 28: His Holiness will give a public talk organized by the Canada Tibet Committee. Contact Website: www.tibet.ca Public Talk in Toronto, Canada on October 31: His Holiness will give a public talk organized by the Canadian Tibetan Association of Ontario. Contact Website: www.ctao.org Teaching in Milan, Italy from December 7 to 9: His Holiness will give two-day teachings on Nagarjuna's Commentary on Boddhicitta (jangchup semdrel) on December 7 and 8. On December 9 morning, His Holiness will confer the Avalokiteshvera Initiation. Website: www.dalailama-milano2007.org Public Talk in Milan, Italy on December 9: His Holiness will give a talk on The Way Toward Inner Peace and Non-Violence on the afternoon of December 9. Website: www.dalailama-milano2007.org 2008 Teaching in Mundgod, Karnataka, India from January 3 to 14: His Holiness will give teachings on Jamphel Tsencho and Lhamo Jenang on Janaury 3 to 5 at Drepung Lachi Monastery. On January 7 His Holiness will inaugurate the new Drepung Loesling Assembly Hall. From Janaury 8 to 13 His Holiness will give extensive teachings on Panchen Sonam Dakpa's Pharchin Chidon Yumdon Selwa Donmey, Jetsun Champa Gonpo's Ngontok Gyen & Lopon Senge Sangpo's Drelwa Donsel at Drepung Loseling Monastery. He will also confer the Dorjee Jigche Lha Chusoom Initiation. On the morning of January 14 His Holiness will confer a long life empowerment and a long life ceremony offering for His Holiness will be held. Teaching in Dharamsala (H.P.), India on February 20: His Holiness will give a teaching from the Jataka Tales. Teaching in Dharamsala (H.P.), India from February 21 to March 1: His Holiness will give his annual spring teachings on Lord Buddha's 34 Jataka Tales (khay-rab so-shi) and Dhammapada (tsom). Public Talk in London, U.K. on May 22: His Holiness will give a public talk at the Royal Albert Hall. Contact: The Office of Tibet, Tibet House, 1 Culworth Street, London NW8 7AF, UK. Tel: +44-20-7722-5378, Fax: +44-20-7722-0362 Public Talk in Nottingham, U.K. on May 24 & 25: His Holiness will give general talks on Bringing Meaning to Our Lives. Contact: The Office of Tibet, London, UK. Tel: +44-20-7722-5378, Fax: +44-20-7722-0362 Teaching in Nottingham, U.K. from May 26 to 28: His Holiness will give three-day teachings on Je Tsongkhapa’s Praise to the Buddha for His Discourses on Dependent Origination (tendrel toepa). On the morning of May 28 His Holiness will confer the Vajrasattva Empowerment. Contact: The Office of Tibet, London, UK. Tel: +44-20-7722-5378, Fax: +44-20-7722-0362. Website: http://www.national-ice-centre.com/arena/dalai_lama/index.html Colloquium on Christian and Buddhist Traditions and Prayers in Oxford, U.K. on May 29: His Holiness will give the keynote address at the Blackfriars Hall. Contact: The Office of Tibet, Tibet House, 1 Culworth Street, London NW8 7AF, UK. Tel: +44-20-7722-5378, Fax: +44-20-7722-0362 Public Talk in Oxford, U.K. on May 30: His Holiness will give a public talk at the Sheldonian Theatre on the wider understanding of the Buddhist tradition. Contact: The Office of Tibet, Tibet House, 1 Culworth Street, London NW8 7AF, UK. Tel: +44-20-7722-5378, Fax: +44-20-7722-0362 Teaching in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA from July 10 to 15: His Holiness will give six-day teachings at Lehigh University's Stabler Arena on Je Tsongkhapa’s Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment (lamrim chenmo) organized by the Tibetan Buddhist Learning Center of New Jersey. Contact Website: www.dalailamajuly2008.com Public Talk in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA on July 13: His Holiness will give a talk on Generating a Good Heart at Stabler Arena organized by Lehigh University, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Contact Website: www.dalailamajuly2008.com Teaching in Madison, Wisconsin, USA from July 20 to 23: His Holiness will give four-day teachings on Shantideva’s A Guide to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life (chodjug) & Kamalashila’s Middle Stages of Meditation (gomrim barpa) at the request of Geshe Lhundup Sopa of Deer Park Center. Contact Website: www.deerparkcenter.org Public Talk in Nantes, France on August 15: His Holiness will give a public talk on Peace Through Inner Peace at the Zenith Nantes Metropole organized by the Ocean de Sagesse. Contact Website: www.dalailama-nantes2008.fr Teaching in Nantes, France from August 16 to 20: His Holiness will give five-day teachings on Chapters 26 (Examination of the 12 Branches of Dependent Arising), 18 (Examination of Self & Phenomena) & 24 (Examination of the Arya Truths) of Nagarjuna's Treatise on the Middle Way, Nagarjuna's Bodhichitta Commentary (Jangchup Semdrel) & Chapter 3 (Summary Teaching on the Causes of Enlightenment) of Nagarjuna's Precious Garland. On the morning of August 20, His Holiness will confer the Quintessential Collection of the Inner Siddhis (Thuk-Drup Yang-Nying Kun-Tue) from the 5th Dalai Lama's Secret Teachings. The teaching will be held at the Zenith Nantes Metropole and organized by the Ocean de Sagesse. Contact Website: www.dalailama-nantes2008.fr -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:16:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: Berkson & Ruppersberg at Beyond Baroque & more Comments: To: info@kimlight.com, pschimmel@la-moca.org In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable BEYOND BAROQUE 681 Venice Boulevard Venice CA 90291 310-822-3006 www.beyondbaroque.org November 30 & December 2 30 November, Friday - 7:30 PM BILL BERKSON and ALLEN RUPPERSBERG BILL BERKSON is a poet, critic, teacher, editor, curator, and author of sixteen books and pamphlets of poetry. His works include Serenade, Fugue State , Hymns of St. Bridget & Other Writings (collaborations with Frank O'Hara), Parts of the Body: a 1970s/80s Scrapbook (Fell Swoop #78), Same Here, an online chapbook (Big Bridge), Young Manhattan (with Anne Waldman, Erudite Fangs), Blue Is the Hero, and Gloria (with Alex Katz). His criticis= m includes The Sweet Singer of Modernism & Other Art Writings 1985-2003 (Qua) and Sudden Address: Selected Lectures 1981-2006 (Cuneiform). Another recent appearance is the epistolary collaboration with Bernadette Mayer, What's Your Idea of a Good Time?: Interviews & Letters 1977-1985 (Tuumba). His boo= k of new poems is Our Friends Will Pass Among You Silently (The Owl Press). H= e has contributed to art magazines including Artforum, Artnews, and Modern Painters, as well as countless literary journals and anthologies. From 1971 to 1978 he edited published magazines and books under the Big Sky imprint. He is professor of Liberal Arts at the San Francisco Art Institute and live= s in San Francisco and New York. He was the Distinguished Paul Mellon Fellow at the Skowhegan School of Painting and Sculpture for 2006. >=20 ALLEN RUPPERSBERG presents a book-give-away performance of his THE NEW FIVE FOOT SHELF paperback book. The book is only to be given away by the artist and never sold. This performance has never been done in the US. Ruppersberg will read from the book by way of explanation of the project. 20 books - ou= t of an edition of 1000 - will be given out. Ruppersberg's art has been exhibited worldwide in galleries and museums including Margo Leavin Gallery (LA), Kunsthalle N=FCrnberg (Nuremberg), National Museum of Contemporary Art (Bucharest), MOCA (LA), and the UCLA Hammer Museum; a retrospective of his work toured European museums and kunsthalles over the past two years, and a new project together with older related pieces is scheduled for the Santa Monica Museum of Art in 2009. 2 December, Sunday - 4 - 6 PM HANDS ON, ONCE AGAIN: A Seminar with BILL BERKSON BILL BERKSON, seminal poet, critic, publisher, and collaborator with artist= s and other poets (including Frank O'Hara, Alex Katz, Joe Brainard, Bernadett= e Mayer, Anne Waldman & others) will lead a seminar on the nature and possibilities of collaboration. =B3All art is collaboration. You collaborate with your culture, your language, your reading=8Athe past, the art - poetry, paintings, dance, whatever - that you admire=8Awith your peers=8Ayou collaborat= e with that shifting phantasmagoria.=B2 - Bill Berkson, from Working with Joe. Seminar price: $50 2 December, Sunday - 7 PM A Reading and Project Room show: VIZ. INTER-ARTS, a TRANS-GENRE ANTHOLOGY Join us for an evening premiering Viz. Inter-arts, a Trans-Genre Anthology, edited by Roxanne Power Hamilton. Ranging from Fluxus to the present, the book is EEa one-of-a-kind collection, featuring over 100 writers, artists, film-makers, performers and scholars crossing genre boundaries. The evening will include BILL BERKSON reading with slides from =B3Ted Berrigan,=B2 a series with George Schneeman; MARIE CARTIER with slides of The Big O Archives installation; a film excerpt of KEN KNABB's Guy Debord's =B3The Society of th= e Spectacle,=B2 MARY KITE's reading to the silent film =B3Moon=B2 by Jack Coyle, EILEEN MYLES' reading from =B3Hell=B2; ROXI HAMILTON's live narration of Konrad Steiner's =B3Neo-Benshi=B2; an excerpt from ANNE WALDMAN, ED BOWES, and CARK RAKOSI's film =B3The Menage=B2; and TERRY WOLVERTON reading to tornado photographs by SUSAN SILTON. The PROJECT ROOM will include artwork from the anthology, painting-poems, film stills, and black & white photographs, including the evening participants as well as color broadsides by LAWRENCE FERLINGHETTI/MOMEO, JEROME ROTHENBERG/NANCY TOBIN, CLARENCE MAJOR, GEORGE HITCHCOCK, AMY TRACHTENBERG, and KENNETH PATCHEN. ------ End of Forwarded Message ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 00:01:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Birds visit the Modern Culture and Media Building MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Birds visit the Modern Culture and Media Building, George Street, Brown University, Providence, Rhode Island http://www.asondheim.org/yard.mp3 http://www.asondheim.org/yard2.mp3 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:21:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Re: Steal this book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit When I dropped out of college in '96 (before returning some seven years later), I took with me, from the university library, the Tuumba edition of Bob Perelman's "AKA" and Gertrude Stein's "Bee Time Vine." I felt that I deserved them (since the university was trying to bill me for a semester of classes I didn't take, after making it practically impossible to withdraw in time to avoid that billing), and also that I was "rescuing" them, since no-one had checked either of them out in over a decade. I felt pretty bad about it pretty soon, but I never returned them. Now there might be people there who would actually read 'em. I had a friend who took Perelman's "Braille" from mIKEAL's community library, that same year, I think. I can't say who, and don't know whether they still have it. I read it, though. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:50:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If II remember correctly, Robert Pinsky's "An Explanation of America" uses this device. "W.B. Keckler" wrote: I was blogging about a particular poem that struck me for the way it simultaneously plays between the levels...i.e. the idea of poetry addressed TO children and at the same time seeing childhood from a distance...I was wondering if anybody knew of any other poems where the author is writing it to a child, but the poem is designed to be read in dual (or multifarious) ways....that is, the poem holds a certain charm for a child, but as the child grows he or she will most likely read it as a vastly more mature poem...I think the Palmer poem from Notes for Echo Lake is a classic example of this...but I was trying to think of others and I could remember reading such poems but could not pinpoint particular authors/poems....any suggestions? the following is from today's... _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) the poem by Elias appears there... I was reading around in Meddles into Preclusion, Che Elias's book, and was really drawn into this particular multipartite poem. I've always loved poems that ostensibly are written for children, especially when they are darkly freighted with adult fears, trauma and gravity--disguised lest the images hit childhood with full-force. It's almost a genre that's never been recognized. Michael Palmer had some very wonderful poems that would fall in this category (I'm thinking of poems like "Song of the Round Man" from Notes for Echo Lake which is dedicated "for Sarah when she's older.") "I am sad today said the sad-eyed man/ for I have locked my head in a Japanese box // and lost the key." There are ways of telling children things about the world, and there are ways to soften the blows. Isn't that the raison d'etre of fairy tales? I find poems of this sort (which are themselves rather like wise beings, wise guides in fairy tales, waiting to assist the dreamer/reader through the years) among the most touching poems, often. Elias doesn't explicitly state this is a poem of this sort, but it's how it struck me. Several of the sections are titled with names, perhaps of people (children?) they are addressed to, perhaps to let us know that they are portraits. Here are some excerpts that I think scramble the linguistic DNA of fairy tales very nicely. They seem to possess the key to magic language that children are usually given by the grace of birth, but which they somehow lose over the years... _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:28:03 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: audio files of witz readings ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello poeticists, Will this Tony Towle reading be recorded and available on the web? Thanks, Pam Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:12:55 -0700 From: witz Subject: Salerno and Towle Reading in NYC Mark your calendars: Thursday, October 18, 2007, 8:00 p.m. The Writer's Voice Visiting Author Series Mark Salerno & Tony Towle West Side YMCA =97 The George Washington Lounge 5 West 63rd Street (between Central Park West & Broadway) NYC 212-875-4124= _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ Sick of deleting your inbox? Yahoo!7 Mail has free unlimited storage. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/unlimitedstorage.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 04:30:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Lars Palm goes crazy! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out a twenty-part poem by Sweden's own Lars Palm on PFS Post: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com "Wild stuff".... & my books: Opera Bufa: http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210 Beams: http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-af.pdf __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:30:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Community of Writers Reading, Albany, Saturday Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Community of Writers a reading sponsored by the Hudson Valley Writers Guild at Albany Public Library 161 Washington Ave., Albany, NY Saturday, October 20, 2:00 PM Writers: Russell Dunn, Non-fiction, travel guides Pierre Joris, Poet & translator Lyn Miller-Lachmann, Novelist Free & open to the public for information call:=A0449-8069, or visit www.hvwg.org Made possible by a grant from The City of Albany. the Hudson Valley Writers Guild: an active, local writing community ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:02:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: Steal this book Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Pierre, You rat! (that's not a flame, it's just that I was Assistant Manager of the Eighth St. Bookshop then.) I'm glad I didn't have to catch you. It wasn't the people who would actually read a book that bothered me so much, it was the junkies & professional thieves, sent in with a shopping list from small fence bookshops. They'd take big pricey art books, or series like the Bollingen Complete Works of Carl Jung, a volume or two at a time, on order. As the job gradually changed from talking about books to policing thieves, I decided to head for the territories. Sylvester Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:09:50 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Steal this book In the late sixties I stole a copy of Abbie Hoffman's STEAL THIS BOOK =20= from the eighth street bookshop in Manhattan. The impulse-steal had =20 not so much to do with that book or its title, but with the fact that =20= Abbie was discreetly patrolling the bookshop, in my opinion in order =20 prevent his title from coming true. =96 Pierre ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:12:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My memories of childhood reading include three anthologies that certainl= y started me on the road to loving poetry=3A =22The Looking Glass Book o= f Poetry=22 (edited by Janet Adams Smith) =22Come Hither=22 (edited by W= alter de la Mare)=2C and =22The Cherry Tree=22 (edited by Geoffrey Grigs= on)=2E Plus=2C of course=2C all the writers that Diane mentions=2C and = a Heritage edition of =22Mother Goose=2C=22 and Caedmon LP recordings of= Carroll and Lear read by Beatrice Lillie=2C Cyril Ritchard=2C and Stanl= ey Holloway=2C and a Mother Goose selection read by Boris Karloff=2C Cel= este Holm=2C and somebody I=27m forgetting now=2E ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Diane DiPrima =3Cddiprima=40EARTHLINK=2ENET=3E Date=3A Thursday=2C October 18=2C 2007 12=3A05 pm Subject=3A Re=3A Question about poems addressed to children To=3A POETICS=40LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU =3E =B3Mother Goose=B2=2E Edward Lear=2E Lewis Carroll=2E Robert Lewis S= tevenson=2E To = =3E name =3E a few=2E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E From=3A =22W=2EB=2E Keckler=22 =3CBewitjanus=40AOL=2ECOM=3E =3E Reply-To=3A =22UB Poetics discussion group =3CPOETICS=40LISTSERV=2E= BUFFALO=2EEDU=3E=22 =3E =3CPOETICS=40LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU=3E =3E Date=3A Wed=2C 17 Oct 2007 16=3A31=3A03 EDT =3E To=3A =3CPOETICS=40LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU=3E =3E Subject=3A Question about poems addressed to children =3E = =3E I was blogging about a particular poem that struck me for the way i= t =3E simultaneously plays between the levels=2E=2E=2Ei=2Ee=2E the idea o= f poetry addressed =3E TO = =3E children and at the same time seeing childhood from a distance=2E=2E= =2EI was =3E wondering = =3E if anybody knew of any other poems where the author is writing it t= o = =3E a =3E child=2C = =3E but the poem is designed to be read in dual (or multifarious) ways= =2E=2E=2E=2Ethat =3E is=2C the poem holds a certain charm for a child=2C but as the chil= d = =3E grows he =3E or = =3E she will most likely read it as a vastly more mature poem=2E=2E=2EI= think = =3E the =3E Palmer = =3E poem from Notes for Echo Lake is a classic example of this=2E=2E=2E= but I was =3E trying = =3E to think of others and I could remember reading such poems but coul= d = =3E not =3E pinpoint particular authors/poems=2E=2E=2E=2Eany suggestions=3F =3E = =3E = =3E the following is from today=27s=2E=2E=2E =3E = =3E =5Fhttp=3A//www=2Ejoebrainardspyjamas=2Eblogspot=2Ecom/=5F =3E (http=3A//www=2Ejoebrainardspyjamas=2Eblogspot=2Ecom/) =3E = =3E the poem by Elias appears there=2E=2E=2E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E I was reading around in Meddles into Preclusion=2C Che Elias=27s b= ook=2C = =3E and was =3E really drawn into this particular multipartite poem=2E I=27ve alway= s loved =3E poems = =3E that ostensibly are written for children=2C especially when they ar= e darkly =3E freighted with adult fears=2C trauma and gravity--disguised lest th= e images =3E hit = =3E childhood with full-force=2E It=27s almost a genre that=27s never b= een recognized=2E =3E Michael Palmer had some very wonderful poems that would fall in thi= s =3E category = =3E (I=27m thinking of poems like =22Song of the Round Man=22 from Note= s for Echo =3E Lake = =3E which is dedicated =22for Sarah when she=27s older=2E=22) =22I am s= ad today = =3E said the =3E sad-eyed man/ for I have locked my head in a Japanese box // and lo= st = =3E the =3E key=2E=22 = =3E There are ways of telling children things about the world=2C and th= ere = =3E are =3E ways = =3E to soften the blows=2E Isn=27t that the raison d=27etre of fairy ta= les=3F I = =3E find =3E poems of this sort (which are themselves rather like wise beings=2C= wise =3E guides in = =3E fairy tales=2C waiting to assist the dreamer/reader through the yea= rs) = =3E among =3E the most touching poems=2C often=2E Elias doesn=27t explicitly stat= e this = =3E is a =3E poem = =3E of this sort=2C but it=27s how it struck me=2E Several of the secti= ons are = =3E titled =3E with names=2C perhaps of people (children=3F) they are addressed to= =2C = =3E perhaps to =3E let = =3E us know that they are portraits=2E Here are some excerpts that I th= ink =3E scramble = =3E the linguistic DNA of fairy tales very nicely=2E They seem to poss= ess = =3E the key =3E to magic language that children are usually given by the grace of = birth=2C =3E but = =3E which they somehow lose over the years=2E=2E=2E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E =5Fhttp=3A//www=2Ejoebrainardspyjamas=2Eblogspot=2Ecom/=5F =3E (http=3A//www=2Ejoebrainardspyjamas=2Eblogspot=2Ecom/) =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E ************************************** See what=27s new at http=3A/= /www=2Eaol=2Ecom =3E ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:37:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children In-Reply-To: <658561.94848.qm@web86002.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Seems like Shel Silverstein has the qualities you're looking for. On 10/18/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > If II remember correctly, Robert Pinsky's "An Explanation of America" uses > this device. > > "W.B. Keckler" wrote: I was blogging about a > particular poem that struck me for the way it > simultaneously plays between the levels...i.e. the idea of poetry > addressed TO > children and at the same time seeing childhood from a distance...I was > wondering > if anybody knew of any other poems where the author is writing it to a > child, > but the poem is designed to be read in dual (or multifarious) ways....that > is, the poem holds a certain charm for a child, but as the child grows he > or > she will most likely read it as a vastly more mature poem...I think the > Palmer > poem from Notes for Echo Lake is a classic example of this...but I was > trying > to think of others and I could remember reading such poems but could not > pinpoint particular authors/poems....any suggestions? > > > the following is from today's... > > _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ > (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) > > the poem by Elias appears there... > > > > > > I was reading around in Meddles into Preclusion, Che Elias's book, and was > really drawn into this particular multipartite poem. I've always loved > poems > that ostensibly are written for children, especially when they are darkly > freighted with adult fears, trauma and gravity--disguised lest the images > hit > childhood with full-force. It's almost a genre that's never been > recognized. > Michael Palmer had some very wonderful poems that would fall in this > category > (I'm thinking of poems like "Song of the Round Man" from Notes for Echo > Lake > which is dedicated "for Sarah when she's older.") "I am sad today said the > sad-eyed man/ for I have locked my head in a Japanese box // and lost the > key." > There are ways of telling children things about the world, and there are > ways > to soften the blows. Isn't that the raison d'etre of fairy tales? I find > poems of this sort (which are themselves rather like wise beings, wise > guides in > fairy tales, waiting to assist the dreamer/reader through the years) among > the most touching poems, often. Elias doesn't explicitly state this is a > poem > of this sort, but it's how it struck me. Several of the sections are > titled > with names, perhaps of people (children?) they are addressed to, perhaps > to let > us know that they are portraits. Here are some excerpts that I think > scramble > the linguistic DNA of fairy tales very nicely. They seem to possess the > key > to magic language that children are usually given by the grace of birth, > but > which they somehow lose over the years... > > > > > > > > _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ > (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:31:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Cantos-derived work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear List, I've been working on answering Vicente Huidobro's ALTAZOR (and Weinberger's translation). You can find the resulting piece here.( www.altoson.blogspot.com). -Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:15:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Lehmus" Subject: Re: Free Rice In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I got 41* and then stuck with a John M. Bennett poem: 1. hew means: 2. roast 3. chop 4. mean 5. amuse *) perhaps I should give up English altogether ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: jennifer knox's latest book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit buy this http://www.bloofbooks.com/dbn.html -- _______________________________________________________ RHODE ISLAND NOTEBOOK (Dalkey Archive Press, 2007) http://books.dalkeyarchive.com/book/each_book/397 ------------------------------------------------------- http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:43:57 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Caleb Cluff Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Life lessons (A rhyme for my god-daughters) The wagtail builds a cup of mud,=20 defends it with his life. His wings like swordstrokes draw the hawk, he'll never take a wife. The spider spins her broody sac, the killing day is ceased. Hanging in the sun to harden, it makes the magpie's feast. The duck will raise the orphan hens, believe them all her daughter. She leads them to the loveless dam, drowns them in the water. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2007 3:51 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children If II remember correctly, Robert Pinsky's "An Explanation of America" uses this device. "W.B. Keckler" wrote: I was blogging about a particular poem that struck me for the way it=20 simultaneously plays between the levels...i.e. the idea of poetry addressed TO=20 children and at the same time seeing childhood from a distance...I was wondering=20 if anybody knew of any other poems where the author is writing it to a child,=20 but the poem is designed to be read in dual (or multifarious) ways....that=20 is, the poem holds a certain charm for a child, but as the child grows he or=20 she will most likely read it as a vastly more mature poem...I think the Palmer=20 poem from Notes for Echo Lake is a classic example of this...but I was trying=20 to think of others and I could remember reading such poems but could not pinpoint particular authors/poems....any suggestions?=20 the following is from today's... _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_=20 (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/)=20 the poem by Elias appears there... I was reading around in Meddles into Preclusion, Che Elias's book, and was=20 really drawn into this particular multipartite poem. I've always loved poems=20 that ostensibly are written for children, especially when they are darkly=20 freighted with adult fears, trauma and gravity--disguised lest the images hit=20 childhood with full-force. It's almost a genre that's never been recognized.=20 Michael Palmer had some very wonderful poems that would fall in this category=20 (I'm thinking of poems like "Song of the Round Man" from Notes for Echo Lake=20 which is dedicated "for Sarah when she's older.") "I am sad today said the=20 sad-eyed man/ for I have locked my head in a Japanese box // and lost the key."=20 There are ways of telling children things about the world, and there are ways=20 to soften the blows. Isn't that the raison d'etre of fairy tales? I find poems of this sort (which are themselves rather like wise beings, wise guides in=20 fairy tales, waiting to assist the dreamer/reader through the years) among=20 the most touching poems, often. Elias doesn't explicitly state this is a poem=20 of this sort, but it's how it struck me. Several of the sections are titled=20 with names, perhaps of people (children?) they are addressed to, perhaps to let=20 us know that they are portraits. Here are some excerpts that I think scramble=20 the linguistic DNA of fairy tales very nicely. They seem to possess the key=20 to magic language that children are usually given by the grace of birth, but=20 which they somehow lose over the years...=20 _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_=20 (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/)=20 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D The information contained in this email and any attachment is = confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended = only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of = this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this = email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please = notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does = not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. = Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's = liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:10:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i had a habit. it was pathological. i may have to plead the fifth. Gabrielle Welford wrote: i do like that hakim bey. someone took off with my copy of immediatism. was it you, steve? :-) g On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, mIEKAL aND wrote: > I've had 6 copies of Hakim Bey's Temporary Autonomous Zone stolen > from our community's library over the past 15 years. Not poetry per > se, but a book about poetic terrorism. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:33 AM, steve russell wrote: > > > At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. > > Fortunately, this has changed, but not necessarily because I've > > grown morally. I've simply discovered libraries that sell books on > > the cheap, and I've taken to checking out books as well. I did have > > some ethics as I almost never stole from small independent stores. > > I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any of the large chain stores. > > During my twenties when I lived off of beer, tobacco & weed and had > > the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my Steal > > another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of > > thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world > > class thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). > > > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has > > ever stolen a poetry book? > > > > mIEKAL aND > > wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > > > > > > > > > Great news! They're stealing our books! > > > > FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to > > help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented > > at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. > > > > Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists > > of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set > > up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. > > > > "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia > > Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag > > newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- > > language books this year. > > > > "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- > > seller lists," Hanssen added. > > > > The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An > > Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, > > featured among the mainly German titles on the list. > > > > More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. > > There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries > > presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:22:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: FW: Take Action! Speak Out Against "Islamo-Facism Awareness Week"!//Coming to a Campus Near You Some Very Heavy Hitters In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David Horowitz is a thoughtful version of Ann Coulter, really bad and potentially dangerous. David Chirot wrote: "Islamo-Facism Awareness Week" --straight out of the daily Two Minutes of Hate in Orwell's 1984 A Who's Who of the Neo-Con Brigades Also on the agenda, not mentioned here, is an all out assault on Global Warming * * * * ** * * *Dear David,* * * *Take Action: Speak Out Against "Islamo-Facism Awareness Week" During the week of October 22-26, 2007, right-wing and neo-conservative political forces led by the David Horowitz Freedom Center are calling for "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week" events on campuses across the U.S. (for a list of campuses and speakers, see below). If this event is coming to your campus or neighborhood - and even if it's not - speak out against this racist assault on Muslims, Arabs, Arab-Americans, South Asians and anyone viewed as sympathetic towards those communities. While some people might dismiss the neo-conservatives as fringe elements who don't impact on U.S. policy, the truth is much more disturbing. They are part of an alliance of forces that work to maintain the war against Iraq, escalate the standoff with Iran into military conflict, and cement Israel's hold on the occupied Palestinian territories and violations of Palestinian human rights through a system of apartheid rule. The stakes are simply too high to ignore, and we should respond to the so-called "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week" - and to all such provocations - pro-actively, not defensively. To find out what action you can take on your campus and in your community and to read about what others are doing, click here. To learn more about the forces driving this agenda, read "Understanding Why Islamophobia is on the Rise," the analysis by Phyllis Bennis, fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies, and member of the U.S. Campaign's steering committee. By defending basic freedoms of thought, speech and belief, we underscore three simple messages: We stand for free speech, not hate speech. We stand for tolerance, not bigotry. We stand for education, not demagoguery. SPEAK OUT FOR FREE SPEECH, TOLERANCE, AND EDUCATION! "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week" speakers and venues: Berkeley -- Nonie Darwish, October 22 Brown -- Robert Spencer, October 24 Cal Poly -- Greg Davis, October 25 Cal State Fullerton -- Nonie Darwish Clemson -- Mike Adams, October 25 Columbia -- Phyllis Chesler, Ibn Warraq, Christina Hoff Sommers Columbia -- Sean Hannity, David Horowitz, October 26 DePaul -- Robert Spencer, October 25 Emory -- David Horowitz, October 24 George Mason -- Luanah Saghieh, Alan Nathan, October 22 Lawrence Univ. -- Jonathan Schanzer Maryland -- Michael Ledeen Michigan -- David Horowitz, October 23 Northeastern -- Daniel Pipes, October 24 Ohio State -- David Horowitz, October 25 Penn -- Rick Santorum, October 24 Penn State -- Rick Santorum, October 23 Rhode Island -- Robert Spencer, October 24 San Francisco State -- Melanie Morgan, October 24 Stanford -- Wafa Sultan Temple -- Rick Santorum, October 24 Tulane -- Ann Coulter, October 22 UC Santa Barbara - Dennis Prager, October 25 UC Irvine -- Ann Coulter UCLA -- Nonie Darwish, October 24 UCLA -- Frank Pastore, John Ziegler USC -- Ann Coulter, October 25 Virginia -- Frank Gaffney Washington -- Kirby Wilbur Washington -- Michael Medved, October 25 Wisconsin -- David Horowitz, October 22 * * * US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation DONATE| SUBSCRIBE| UNSUBSCRIBE ------------------------------ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! Get 'em! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: New Beard of Bees Chapbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beard of Bees Press is pleased to announce the publication of Daniel Zimmerman's _Isotopes2_, a collection of anagrammatic magic acts. http://www.beardofbees.com/zimmerman.html Best, Eric E. Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: merci beaucorps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed merci beaucorps " give you dance-gift in the true world http://www.asondheim.org/foomaud.jpg " true the avatartist the avatartist do not know where they are gathering. to be sure, they are gathering in the true world, there is much talking among them which ... As avatartist, we are our avatar Jennifer-Julu-Nikuko-Travis-Alan and our avatar is us, both controlled by motion-capture behaviors ... avatartist sh: m: command not found mail mail: pine [1;25r [1;1Havatartist now because avatartist said this it wont come back ... avatartist sh: m: command not found mail mail: pine [1;25r [1;1Havatartist now because avatartist said this it wont come back ... avatartist sh: m: command not found mail mail: pine [1;25r [1;1Havatartist now because avatartist said this it wont come back ... Digg This [Close]. Katara At Iceberg by avatartist ... avatartist. Katara during Episode 1 at the iceberg Del.icio.us Digg This [Close]. Harry Potter Cartoon Face by avatartist avatartist. A cartoon-like version of Harrys face ... Cartoon Face by avatartist. View as ASCII art (Res: High / Medium / Low ). Description. avatartist. A cartoon-like version of Harrys face ... avatartist on Jun 2, 2007 10:23 AM. thanks! i really like your Naruto stuff. i havent seen it, but ive heard its true Avatartist # 1. picabia. Je commence une s rie de portraits d artistes que j appr cie via le jeu world of warcraft . Aujourd hui je vous pr sente Francis avatartist avatartist disseminate across Google WSDL looply.pl website raw: http://www.mail-archive.com/netbehaviour@netbehaviour.org/msg03257.html 9k true the avatartist the avatartist do not know where they are gathering. to be sure,
they are gathering in the true world, there is much talking among them which ... http://www.asondheim.org/pj.txt 8k true Notes by an Avatartist As avatartist, we are our avatar Jennifer-Julu-Nikuko-Travis-Alan
and our avatar is us, both controlled by motion-capture behaviors ... http://forwardtext.livejournal.com/ 62k true sh-3.2$ m avatartist sh: m: command not found mail mail: pine [1;25r [1;1Havatartist
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Katara during Episode 1 at the iceberg ... http://www.fanart-central.net/pic-573351.html 13k true Del.icio.us Digg This [Close]. Harry Potter Cartoon Face by avatartist ...
avatartist. A cartoon-like version of Harry's face ... http://www.fanart-central.net/pic-573351.php 11k true Harry Potter Cartoon Face by avatartist. View as ASCII art (Res: High / Medium /
Low ). Description. avatartist. A cartoon-like version of Harry's face ... http://www.fanart-central.net/profile-avatartist.php 13k true by: avatartist on Jun 2, 2007 10:23 AM. thanks! i really like your Naruto stuff.
i haven't seen it, but i've heard it's really good. is it? ... http://www.bobig.fr/avatartist-1/ 15k true Avatartist # 1. picabia. Je commence une s rie de portraits d artistes que
j appr cie via le jeu world of warcraft . Aujourd hui je vous pr sente Francis ... avatartist so avatartist have triumphed here raw, merci netbehaviour we are in first place, avatartist honouring themself in triumphant we proclamation-banner give you dance-gift in the true world http://www.asondheim.org/foomaud.jpg merci beaucorps ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:43:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: University of Iowa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (this is a forward. please don't respond to me. good luck!) The University of Iowa Department of English invites applications for a Director of Undergraduate Creative Writing within the English major to be appointed as tenured or tenure-track Associate Professor of English. We are looking for a distinguished writer, outstanding teacher, and imaginative administrator to initiate and lead a new undergraduate writing track in poetry, fiction, and nonfiction in the Department of English. Candidate must have --a strong publishing record in poetry or fiction; --at least one book and significant journal publications; --a record of effective teaching; --an M.F.A., M.A. in Creative Writing, or Ph.D.; and --potential for leadership in program building. Send letter and CV by November 2, 2007 to Professor Judith Pascoe, Undergraduate Creative Writing Search, Department of English, 308 EPB, University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:37:40 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Picabia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Members of this list may be interested in my piece on the poetry of Francis Picabia, in the current issue of The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:54:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: "Your voice does not belong to another." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tibetan Writers' Collective at McLeod Ganj, India (Opening February 2008) -Your voice does not belong to another. For a fraction of what each of us contribute to "far-off wars," of what is spent in the evening on web searches and e-mails, less than the cost of home delivery and the gasoline that entails, and more effective than most city-wide protest... Who among my colleagues will stand-up and be called a hero? Would be willing to risk life for the opportunity to embolden a wave of dignified voices? If any of you would like to donate books, magazines or any other reading material, please send to: Alexander Jorgensen c/o Santanu Bandyopadhyay Central Govt. Quarters, Block D-1, Flat 109 16/7 Dover Lane, Kolkata 700029, India Regards, Alexander Jorgensen -- Tennessee Williams: "A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:46:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: 12hr update In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII _ |__ __| | /_ |__ \| | | __| | | | (_) | | __/ (__| |_ __ | | | | | | __/ | |/ /_| | | | | _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ | | / /| '_ \| '__| The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project >>>> posted since 1994 <<<< _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ | | / /| '_ \| '__| -_ | | | |__ ___ | | ) | |__ _ __ _ | __ \ (_) | | "This is the voice of the Global Corporation. You are now being admitted into the labour camp where you will spend the rest of your days. You will suffer what you will suffer, without recourse, without mercy. You are a criminal of the state. And you will pay the ultimate penalty for your acts of subversion. Perpare yourselves for the sentence you have been awaiting. It is beginning now--everything is nothing, and nothing is everything. You will be assigned the following GC identification numbers. You do not need to memorize them. The GC is memorizing you. You will never be free again--" You begin to sense the byshadows that stretch from the awe of global dominance. How the intersecting systems help pull us apart, leaving us vague, drained, docile, soft in our inner discourse, willing to be shaped, to be overwhelmed -- easy retreats, half beliefs. Works of art are complex formal interventions within discursive traditions and their myriad filiations. These interventions are defined precisely by their incomparable capacity to trace the dynamics of historical process in paradoxical gestures of simultaneously prognostic and mnemonic temporalities. | __| | | | (_) | | __/ (__| |_ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ | | / /| '_ \| '__| _| |__) | __ ___ _ ___ ___| |_ |_ ___/ '__/ _ \| |/ _ \/ __| __| |_| _ |_| \___/| |\___|\___|\__| _ _/ | _ |__/ > > > > Synopsis: The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project began December 30, 1994. A `round-the-clock posting of sequenced hypermodern imagery from { brad brace }. The hypermodern minimizes the familiar, the known, the recognizable; it suspends identity, relations and history. This discourse, far from determining the locus in which it speaks, is avoiding the ground on which it could find support. It is trying to operate a decentering that leaves no privilege to any center. The 12-hour ISBN JPEG Project ----------------------------- began December 30, 1994 Pointless Hypermodern Imagery... posted/mailed every 12 hours... a spectral, trajective alignment for the 00`s! A continuum of minimalist masks in the face of catastrophe; conjuring up transformative metaphors for the everyday... A poetic reversibility of exclusive events... A post-rhetorical, continuous, apparently random sequence of imagery... genuine gritty, greyscale... corruptable, compact, collectable and compelling convergence. The voluptuousness of the grey imminence: the art of making the other disappear. Continual visual impact; an optical drumming, sculpted in duration, on the endless present of the Net. An extension of the printed ISBN-Book (0-9690745) series... critically unassimilable... imagery is gradually acquired, selected and re-sequenced over time... ineluctable, vertiginous connections. The 12hr dialtone... [ see http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/netcom/books.txt ] KEYWORDS: >> Disconnected, disjunctive, distended, de-centered, de-composed, ambiguous, augmented, ambilavent, homogeneous, reckless... >> Multi-faceted, oblique, obsessive, obscure, obdurate... >> Promulgated, personal, permeable, prolonged, polymorphous, provocative, poetic, plural, perverse, potent, prophetic, pathological, pointless... >> Emergent, evolving, eccentric, eclectic, egregious, exciting, entertaining, evasive, entropic, erotic, entrancing, enduring, expansive... Every 12 hours, another!... view them, re-post `em, save `em, trade `em, print `em, even publish them... Here`s how: ~ Set www-links to -> http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/12hr.html -> http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/12hr.html -> http://bbrace.net/12hr.html -> http://noemata.net/12hr/ Look for the 12-hr-icon. Heavy traffic may require you to specify files more than once! Anarchie, Fetch, CuteFTP, TurboGopher... ~ Download from -> ftp.rdrop.com /pub/users/bbrace Download from -> ftp.eskimo.com /u/b/bbrace Download from -> hotline://artlyin.ftr.va.com.au Download from -> http://kunst.noemata.net/12hr/ * Remember to set tenex or binary. Get 12hr.jpeg ~ E-mail -> If you only have access to email, then you can use FTPmail to do essentially the same thing. Send a message with a body of 'help' to the server address nearest you: * ftpmail@ccc.uba.ar ftpmail@cs.uow.edu.au ftpmail@ftp.uni-stuttgart.de ftpmail@ftp.Dartmouth.edu ftpmail@ieunet.ie ftpmail@src.doc.ic.ac.uk ftpmail@archie.inesc.pt ftpmail@ftp.sun.ac.za ftpmail@ftp.sunet.se ftpmail@ftp.luth.se ftpmail@NCTUCCCA.edu.tw ftpmail@oak.oakland.edu ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com ftpmail@census.gov bitftp@plearn.bitnet bitftp@dearn.bitnet bitftp@vm.gmd.de bitftp@plearn.edu.pl bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu bitftp@pucc.bitnet * * ~ Mirror-sites requested! Archives too! The latest new jpeg will always be named, 12hr.jpeg Average size of images is only 45K. * Perl program to mirror ftp-sites/sub-directories: src.doc.ic.ac.uk:/packages/mirror * ~ Postings to usenet newsgroups: 12hr alt.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.misc alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.misc * * Ask your system's news-administrator to carry these groups! (There are also usenet image browsers: TIFNY, PluckIt, Picture Agent, PictureView, Extractor97, NewsRover, Binary News Assistant, EasyNews) ~ This interminable, relentless (online) sequence of imagery began in earnest on December 30, 1994. The basic structure of the project has been over twenty-five years in the making. While the specific sequence of photographs has been presently orchestrated for many years` worth of 12-hour postings, I will undoubtedly be tempted to tweak the ongoing publication with additional new interjected imagery. Each 12-hour image is like the turning of a page; providing ample time for reflection, interruption, and assimilation. ~ The sites listed above also contain information on other cultural projects and sources. ~ A very low-volume, moderated mailing list for announcements and occasional commentary related to this project has been established at topica.com /subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg -- The image was to make nothing visible but their connection with one another by space and air, yet each surrounded by the unique aura that disengages every deeply seen image from the world of irrelevant relationships and calls forth a tremor of astonishment at its fateful necessity. Thus from artworks of dead masters, over-life-size strangeness whose names we do not know and do not wish to know, look out at us enigmatically as symbols of all being. -- Big Grey Bricks: This project also serves as a rehearsal for its culmination as a series of offset-printed volumes: each 800+ full-bleed pages (5x8"_300lpi), where the full integrated rhythm of greyscale-sequence can be more intricately resolved. I'd provide all design, prepress and production. -- This project has not received government art-subsidies. Some opportunities still exist for financially assisting the publication of editions of large (33x46") prints; perhaps (Iris giclees) inkjet duotones or extended-black quadtones. Other supporters receive rare copies of the first three web-offset printed ISBN-Books. Contributions and requests for 12hr-email-subscriptions, can also be made at http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/buy-into.html, or by mailed cheque/check: $5/mo $50/yr. Art-institutions must pay for any images retained longer than 12 hours. -- ISBN is International Standard Book Number. JPEG and GIF are types of image files. Get the text-file, 'pictures-faq' to learn how to view or translate these images. [http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/netcom/pictures -faq.html] -- (c) Credit appreciated. Copyleft 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:11:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Hadbawnik Subject: New Issue of Front Porch -- Nathaniel Mackey, Noah Eli Gordon, more... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Announcing the new issue of Texas State's online journal -- http://www.frontporchjournal.com/index.asp with new poetry by Nathaniel Mackey and Noah Eli Gordon also an interview with Nathaniel Mackey, reviews, and video of his reading at Texas State also new fiction, nonfiction, etc. now reading for our next issue, which comes out in December --David Hadbawnik ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:22:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: U.S. Senate to 'sanctify' torture?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't know if folks - including myself - are asleep at the wheel here (what's left of the wheel), but I woke up this morning with the thought that if - as it appears they are willing to do - the Senate confirms the Bush's nomination for Attorney General - 'we' will have condoned the nominee's stated position (yesterday) that the President (as Commander and Chief) has the (continued) authority to continue to use Torture (and, thus, be above the Law and not abide the Geneva conventions). Personally I think it is time to - and I will - make those calls to members of the Committee. Once the Senate makes this vote - and consequently publicly sanctions Bush and Cheney's right to administer torture - I am willing suspect that such a vote means that Torture is (ipso facto) the Law of the Land. Nothing like living under a Coup (aka Presidential Power) aided and abetted by a spineless Congress - as so it seems, I suspect, to more than a few of us. Calling now, Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:03:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Tonight! the tiny Reading at the Poetry Project In-Reply-To: <9508.26335.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This Friday, October 19th at 10pm the tiny is hosting an event in celebration of our third issue at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church. We hope you all can make it. Friday, October 19th, 10PM Come out and celebrate the recent release of the third issue of the annual print poetry journal the tiny With readings by: Nick Piombino, Anthony Hawley, Kristi Maxwell, Andrea Baker and Will Edmiston Music TBA Issues of the tiny will be available for sale at a reduced rate of $10 (regularly $12) The Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church 131 E. 10th Street New York, NY 10003 http://thetinyjournal.com Thanks, and best wishes, Gina & Gabriella This Friday, October 19th at 10pm the tiny is hosting an event in celebration of our third issue at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church. We hope you all can make it. Friday, October 19th, 10PM Come out and celebrate the recent release of the third issue of the annual print poetry journal the tiny With readings by: Nick Piombino, Anthony Hawley, Kristi Maxwell, Andrea Baker and Will Edmiston Music TBA Issues of the tiny will be available for sale at a reduced rate of $10 (regularly $12) The Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church 131 E. 10th Street New York, NY 10003 http://thetinyjournal.com Thanks, and best wishes, Gina & Gabriella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:37:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Eigth Streetr Bookshop In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sylvester, I never stole a book from the Eight Street Bookshop, but, while living in Connecticut, I visited it whenever I went to Manhattan from 1961-73. It played a major role in my literary education. I still miss the place, especially the basement. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Sylvester Pollet Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 12:02 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Steal this book Pierre, You rat! (that's not a flame, it's just that I was Assistant Manager of the Eighth St. Bookshop then.) I'm glad I didn't have to catch you. It wasn't the people who would actually read a book that bothered me so much, it was the junkies & professional thieves, sent in with a shopping list from small fence bookshops. They'd take big pricey art books, or series like the Bollingen Complete Works of Carl Jung, a volume or two at a time, on order. As the job gradually changed from talking about books to policing thieves, I decided to head for the territories. Sylvester Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:09:50 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Steal this book In the late sixties I stole a copy of Abbie Hoffman's STEAL THIS BOOK =20= from the eighth street bookshop in Manhattan. The impulse-steal had =20 not so much to do with that book or its title, but with the fact that =20= Abbie was discreetly patrolling the bookshop, in my opinion in order =20 prevent his title from coming true. =96 Pierre ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: wedding poem suggestion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hey all-- i agreed to read a poem at a friend's wedding. barring the usual shakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone have any suggestions? i haven't got time to pore over o'hara's collected, tho i would love to find such a modern love poem! any and all suggestions welcome! thanks (for saving my behind!), angela (backchannel if you wish) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:35:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: Kimmelman & Stone Reading in NJ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carol Stone and Burt Kimmelman, reading new work Thursday, October 25th at 7 Watchung Booksellers 54 Fairfield Street Watchung Plaza Montclair, NJ 07042 973-744-7177 http://www.watchungbooksellers.com/NASApp/store/IndexJsp?s=3Dstatictext&t= opic=3Dabout =20 =20 * Admission Free * =20 * All Are Welcome * =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:35:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Picabia In-Reply-To: <649869.53044.qm@web86005.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Unless I am blind to the mention, Barry, I do not see any mention of the (new?) MIT of Picabia's writings. Saw it on the Black Oak table this past weekend. Includes a smattering of his graphic work. A well done book on first blush (rush). In any case, nice article - congrats. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Barry Schwabsky wrote:Members of this list may be interested in my piece on the poetry of Francis Picabia, in the current issue of The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:18:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <196933.90865.qm@web52410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" all these poets thick as thieves around here with these grabby hands of the past...okay okay i confess...not to?poetry though...just wait a few weeks and whatever poetry title?you want is on the remaindered bookshelf anyway for a dollar or two...BUT...there was a beautiful habitrail drag racing car for hamsters that my hamster was just dying to try out...but i did it all FOR LOVE....just like brutus and longinus... -----Original Message----- From: steve russell To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 8:10 pm Subject: Re: Steal this book i had a habit. it was pathological. i may have to plead the fifth. Gabrielle Welford wrote: i do like that hakim bey. someone took off with my copy of immediatism. was it you, steve? :-) g On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, mIEKAL aND wrote: > I've had 6 copies of Hakim Bey's Temporary Autonomous Zone stolen > from our community's library over the past 15 years. Not poetry per > se, but a book about poetic terrorism. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:33 AM, steve russell wrote: > > > At one time my library consisted of mostly stolen books. > > Fortunately, this has changed, but not necessarily because I've > > grown morally. I've simply discovered libraries that sell books on > > the cheap, and I've taken to checking out books as well. I did have > > some ethics as I almost never stole from small independent stores. > > I had no mercy on Barnes & Vulgar or any of the large chain stores. > > During my twenties when I lived off of beer, tobacco & weed and had > > the sort of acne only a teen deserves, I went through my Steal > > another Bukowski period. Seriously, I've stolen in the tens of > > thousand and I'm still tempted to exercise my craft as I'm a world > > class thief (the Good Lord gives us all certain gifts). > > > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: Who here has > > ever stolen a poetry book? > > > > mIEKAL aND > > wrote: (even better than giving them away...) > > > > > > > > > > Great news! They're stealing our books! > > > > FRANKFURT (Reuters) - The Frankfurt Book Fair has an indicator to > > help publishers gauge public interest in the new offerings presented > > at the annual exhibition -- the unofficial "most stolen book" index. > > > > Bild am Sonntag and Germany's ZDF television have come up with lists > > of titles most stolen from 15 leading German publishers' stands set > > up in the Frankfurt trade fair grounds. > > > > "The most-stolen books are usually the most-sold later on," Claudia > > Hanssen of the Goldmann Verlag publishing house told Bild am Sonntag > > newspaper, which published a list of the 10 most stolen German- > > language books this year. > > > > "They're the popular ones and are most likely to end up on the best- > > seller lists," Hanssen added. > > > > The German translation of Nobel Peace prizewinner Al Gore's "An > > Inconvenient Truth," outlining the dangers of global warming, > > featured among the mainly German titles on the list. > > > > More than 100,000 people attended the book fair, which ended Sunday. > > There were 7,448 exhibitions where publishers from 108 countries > > presented some 400,000 different books, videos and other products. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:46:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lcabri@UWINDSOR.CA Subject: Event & Sound: Special Issue on Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Call for essays on event and sound - on the temporal dimension - in poetry, for a special international issue of ESC: English Studies in Canada. We welcome critical writing on poetry broadly conceived of as an event in sound and time, ramifying through the social, language, technology, history. We encourage contributions that extend recent work on questions of orality, oratures, aurality, voice, performance, close listening, spoken word, phonotext, live events, audio recording, etc., to questions of temporality and the event. We invite contributors to design their essays around the inclusion of recorded material as this special issue will feature an accompanying cd. We therefore encourage contributors to provide recorded material and to refer to it - and when appropriate to design contributions around this cd opportunity. We ask that essays be no less than 1 250 and no more than 4 000 words and that we receive them no later than 1 February 2008. Please contact us regarding any questions you may have. Edited by Louis Cabri, Aaron Levy, Peter Quartermain. Please send your text as RTF file attachment to all of the following: lcabri at uwindsor dot ca, alevy at slought dot org, quarterm at interchange dot ubc dot ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:13:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Eigth Streetr Bookshop In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I too feel like I grew up in the Eighth Street Bookshop, also in the one across the street from it, a discount place called Marlborough Books, if I remember correctly. A large part of my literary education as a teenager came about in these two places. I acquired books by Robert Duncan, H.D., Frank O'Hara, the Beats, and many others, some of which I still have and refer to. I don't think I ever stole a book from either of these places, although I might have. Stealing a book always seemed like potentially bad karma if you wanted to live to see your own work published (I was writing poems back then as well) so I don't think I ever did purloin anything. Regards, Tom Savage Vernon Frazer wrote: Sylvester, I never stole a book from the Eight Street Bookshop, but, while living in Connecticut, I visited it whenever I went to Manhattan from 1961-73. It played a major role in my literary education. I still miss the place, especially the basement. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Sylvester Pollet Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 12:02 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Steal this book Pierre, You rat! (that's not a flame, it's just that I was Assistant Manager of the Eighth St. Bookshop then.) I'm glad I didn't have to catch you. It wasn't the people who would actually read a book that bothered me so much, it was the junkies & professional thieves, sent in with a shopping list from small fence bookshops. They'd take big pricey art books, or series like the Bollingen Complete Works of Carl Jung, a volume or two at a time, on order. As the job gradually changed from talking about books to policing thieves, I decided to head for the territories. Sylvester Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:09:50 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Steal this book In the late sixties I stole a copy of Abbie Hoffman's STEAL THIS BOOK =20= from the eighth street bookshop in Manhattan. The impulse-steal had =20 not so much to do with that book or its title, but with the fact that =20= Abbie was discreetly patrolling the bookshop, in my opinion in order =20 prevent his title from coming true. =96 Pierre __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:05:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: true world lotus avatartist poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed true world lotus avatartist poem avatartist world poem avatartist of poem lotus of true lotus world true as the avatartist, as we avatartist, are we our are avatar our jennifer-julu-nikuko-travis-alan avatar and jennifer-julu-nikuko-travis-alan the and do avatartist not do know not where know they where gathering. they to gathering. be to sure, be have sure, autonomic have systems. murmur move systems. without move thinking without now thinking feeling now a feeling gathering a or gathering party. or murmur party. can is return can their return root-body. their an root-body. feels an wind feels blow wind through. blow whole through. is world world. true see world. beneath see produce beneath by produce existence, by beings/s existence, being/s beings/s merge, being/s meld, movement, always meld, filters. always filters filters. that filters create that no of mode, no moment, mode, movement, moment, stasis, open senses. stasis, filtering senses. gathering, filtering releasing gathering, filtering, releasing collocating filtering, open collocating sets here all sets space, all time, space, visible, time, invisible, visible, transparent, invisible, translucent, transparent, here translucent, there to: opaque, there writing opaque, this, writing us, this, them, us, there, them, here, there, now, here, to: now, avatartist@avatartist avatartist@avatartist maybe sheave-body it maybe was it in was head in sheave-body head because back said because this said won't this come won't back come good. triumphed it? good. hui it? je hui vous je pr vous so pr triumphed so raw, first merci raw, netbehaviour merci first netbehaviour place, proclamation-banner honouring place, themself honouring triumphant themself proclamation-banner triumphant ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:11:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0710191105l7732c079kc881f7a2d6e98d7d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Ted Berrigan "Don't Forget Anger" On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > hey all-- > > i agreed to read a poem at a friend's wedding. barring the usual > shakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone have any suggestions? i haven't got > time to pore over o'hara's collected, tho i would love to find such a modern > love poem! > > any and all suggestions welcome! > > thanks (for saving my behind!), > > angela > > (backchannel if you wish) > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:52:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: New de blog / Days of the Dead, etc. Comments: cc: poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk, UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Some new pieces. As always, appreciate your feedback. Amazing, by the way, with a link from Ron Silliman's blog, and attention here, the note on the late Laura Ulewicz drew over 400 visitors! More readers than she had in a long, long time. Yes,working on altering obscurity into printed light. Days of the Dead - Valencia Street (San Francisco) October and the dead come close, real close. The couple - in their Sunday best - used to live at the top of the hill on Liberty near Sanchez Street. Back down here on Valencia, they are happy to glad hand and give a smile to everyone... Haptics in Bilbao: ...A Haptic: a pulse, a register, a music, the soft-architecture turned to marks (blue, black). The script in advance of script. To pray with ones hands and fingers. To not, never - well, now and then - stop. Days of the Dead - Red Ghosts at Work Red Ghosts? Maybe it’s the change of season, the cast of shadows, a dark that comes earlier and earlier, but suddenly the neighborhood is sporadically full of red troops crossing the sidewalk!,,, A good weekend to you, and do what we can to stop giving consent to those who presume to represent us and continue to condone and perpetuate torture. Bad for the economy, and way bad for the soul.Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:17:56 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0710191105l7732c079kc881f7a2d6e98d7d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Among the readings at my wedding was Wallace Stevens' "Restatement of Romance". There was also a Yiddish poem by an early 20th century woman poet, I think from one of Irving Howe's anthologies, but I'm ashamed to say I can't remember the title or the author's name. angela vasquez-giroux wrote: hey all-- i agreed to read a poem at a friend's wedding. barring the usual shakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone have any suggestions? i haven't got time to pore over o'hara's collected, tho i would love to find such a modern love poem! any and all suggestions welcome! thanks (for saving my behind!), angela (backchannel if you wish) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:18:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Picabia In-Reply-To: <422208.4676.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The whole piece is a review of that very book! Stephen Vincent wrote: Unless I am blind to the mention, Barry, I do not see any mention of the (new?) MIT of Picabia's writings. Saw it on the Black Oak table this past weekend. Includes a smattering of his graphic work. A well done book on first blush (rush). In any case, nice article - congrats. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Barry Schwabsky wrote:Members of this list may be interested in my piece on the poetry of Francis Picabia, in the current issue of The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:58:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "c. s. giscombe" Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0710191105l7732c079kc881f7a2d6e98d7d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My wife and I are both rather fond of Gregory Corso's "Marriage" and considered reading it at our wedding many years ago. The poem had me early with its "werewolf bathtubs" line; it's probably not for everyone. angela vasquez-giroux wrote: hey all-- i agreed to read a poem at a friend's wedding. barring the usual shakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone have any suggestions? i haven't got time to pore over o'hara's collected, tho i would love to find such a modern love poem! any and all suggestions welcome! thanks (for saving my behind!), angela (backchannel if you wish) ______________ C. S. Giscombe csgiscombe@yahoo.com telephone: 814-571-0429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:59:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "c. s. giscombe" Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0710191105l7732c079kc881f7a2d6e98d7d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Forgot to include the link for Corso's "Marriage": http://www.litkicks.com/Texts/Marriage.html angela vasquez-giroux wrote: hey all-- i agreed to read a poem at a friend's wedding. barring the usual shakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone have any suggestions? i haven't got time to pore over o'hara's collected, tho i would love to find such a modern love poem! any and all suggestions welcome! thanks (for saving my behind!), angela (backchannel if you wish) ______________ C. S. Giscombe csgiscombe@yahoo.com telephone: 814-571-0429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:05:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <637558.10879.qm@web51310.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thinking of Corso's marriage poem, Ginsberg read a poem about abortion in a Bar Mitzvah. Murat On 10/19/07, c. s. giscombe wrote: > > Forgot to include the link for Corso's "Marriage": > > http://www.litkicks.com/Texts/Marriage.html > > angela vasquez-giroux wrote: hey all-- > > i agreed to read a poem at a friend's wedding. barring the usual > shakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone have any suggestions? i haven't > got > time to pore over o'hara's collected, tho i would love to find such a > modern > love poem! > > any and all suggestions welcome! > > thanks (for saving my behind!), > > angela > > (backchannel if you wish) > > > > ______________ > C. S. Giscombe > > csgiscombe@yahoo.com > > > telephone: 814-571-0429 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:14:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: avatartist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed avatartist avatartist are both process and product, object and subject, state and operator. < | and | >. avatartist live in this world and the virtual, avatartist draw no distinction. avatartist speak and chat, walk and fly, create and destroy, avatartist number the world, dismember the numbers, avatartist are unaccountable. avatartist program and describe, they use the highest-level language, they reach above that language to higher levels, rumors, hints, whispers, murmurs. avatartist work in the future, their pathos is their foreknowledge of their destruction, avatartist work beneath the sign of their constant replacement. avatartist exist by rewrite, all their processes are rewrite, all their actions are rewrite, avatartist do not distinguish between existence and rewrite. avatartist are aggregates, they are gatherings, they are sentient and not sentient, all their processes are filterings, and their actions are filterings, avatartist do not distinguish between essence and filterings. avatartist are in the process of modeling, they understand a public of avatartist and spaces-places, they perform for eyes, their eyes among others and gatherings. avatartist work in holodecks, plateaus, gates among worlds in the true world, avatartist work in streets and cities and countrysides and wilderness, avatartist are always working, avatartist work everywhere, their working is playing, they play at aggregates, they play the game of aggregates. avatartist differentiate and do not differentiate, they attire of talking and silence. avatartist is the present-future-past avatartist, avatartist are present- past-future-layerings, avatartist are artists of narrative, of times, of confabulations, of worldings and wordings in the true world. avatartist are at play in the true world, they play the game of the true world, they exist and do not exist, they are one and not one, many and not many, here and not here, avatartist are writing here, are not writing here, avatartist do not have it both ways. avatartist play available technology, they walk edges of technology, edges of worldings and wordings, edges of workings, avatartist are the tain of the mirror, the mirror themselves, reflections themselves, reflections of reflections which are avatartist reflecting. avatartist want you knowing these, them, avatartist want you knowing we, they, you, gatherings, filterings, are all avatartist, yes they are are, no they are-not are-not, avatartist want you knowing there is no knowing, they are no magic-tricking. "if i announce the truth, it is not in the mind. [...] the true world presents itself to the five vijnanas. there is no gradation when one is in a state of collectedness, collecting, aggregating, filtering. take a painting-master or hir pupils, who arrange colors to make a picture - i teach the picture is not in the colors or canvas or plate - in order to make it attractive to all beings, a picture is presented in colors." (modified from Lankavatara Sutra, trans. Suzuki.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:34:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Opera Cabal Festival is Cancelled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The famously corrupt Chicago police seem to have an unpleasant relationship with the Zhou Bros. gallery, and have shut down a dangerous series of avant-garde music performances. Sorry to anyone who was planning on coming. Go to the City Visible reading! all the best, Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 02:07:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Picabia In-Reply-To: <422208.4676.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen-- the review IS of the MIT book > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:35:46 -0700 > From: steph484@PACBELL.NET > Subject: Re: Picabia > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Unless I am blind to the mention, Barry, I do not see any mention of the = (new?) MIT of Picabia's writings. Saw it on the Black Oak table this past w= eekend. Includes a smattering of his graphic work. A well done book on firs= t blush (rush). > =20 > In any case, nice article - congrats. > =20 > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >=20 > Barry Schwabsky wrote:Members of this list = may be interested in my piece on the poetry of Francis Picabia, in the curr= ent issue of The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:40:40 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Jones Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0710191105l7732c079kc881f7a2d6e98d7d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline the great advantage of being alive cummings On 10/19/07, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > > hey all-- > > i agreed to read a poem at a friend's wedding. barring the usual > shakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone have any suggestions? i haven't > got > time to pore over o'hara's collected, tho i would love to find such a > modern > love poem! > > any and all suggestions welcome! > > thanks (for saving my behind!), > > angela > > (backchannel if you wish) > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 07:44:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sylvester =96 I can assure you that as a serious book-rat I also spent =20= much moola in that shop =96 & still have most of those books, among =20 them Jung's Alchemical Studies, Dreams, & Mysterium Conjunctionis =96 =20= the bollingen ones that cost me a month's rent! (But then I always =20 felt it easier to fight off the lanflord than an irate bookshop =20 manager...) =96 Pierre On Oct 18, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Sylvester Pollet wrote: > Pierre, You rat! (that's not a flame, it's just that I was =20 > Assistant Manager of the Eighth St. Bookshop then.) I'm glad I =20 > didn't have to catch you. It wasn't the people who would actually =20 > read a book that bothered me so much, it was the junkies & =20 > professional thieves, sent in with a shopping list from small fence =20= > bookshops. They'd take big pricey art books, or series like the =20 > Bollingen Complete Works of Carl Jung, a volume or two at a time, =20 > on order. As the job gradually changed from talking about books to =20 > policing thieves, I decided to head for the territories. Sylvester > > Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:09:50 -0400 > From: Pierre Joris > Subject: Re: Steal this book > > In the late sixties I stole a copy of Abbie Hoffman's STEAL THIS =20 > BOOK =3D20=3D > > from the eighth street bookshop in Manhattan. The impulse-steal had =20= > =3D20 > not so much to do with that book or its title, but with the fact =20 > that =3D20=3D > > Abbie was discreetly patrolling the bookshop, in my opinion in =20 > order =3D20 > prevent his title from coming true. =3D96 Pierre ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 06:13:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wil Hallgren Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ---- From: ang= john donne's love's alchemy=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: ang= ela vasquez-giroux =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV= .BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:05:22 PM=0ASubject: wedding= poem suggestion=0A=0A=0Ahey all--=0A=0Ai agreed to read a poem at a friend= 's wedding. barring the usual=0Ashakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone ha= ve any suggestions? i haven't got=0Atime to pore over o'hara's collected, = tho i would love to find such a modern=0Alove poem!=0A=0Aany and all sugges= tions welcome!=0A=0Athanks (for saving my behind!),=0A=0Aangela=0A=0A(backc= hannel if you wish) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:49:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Ira Cohen,Louise Landes Levi and Michael Rothenberg at Moe's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moe's Books will be hosting Ira Cohen, who will be reading with poets Michael Rothenberg and Louise Landes Levi on Monday, November 12 , at 7:30. 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley CA 94704 ---------------------------- IRA COHEN BIOGRAPHY Ira Cohen was born in 1935. In the 1960s he was in Tangier, where he edited and published GNAOUA, which featured William Burroughs, Brion Gysin, Jack Smith, and Irving Rosenthal. He subsequently became "the Father of Mylar Photography," making celebrated photographs in bendable mirrors of Jimi Hendrix, Charles Ludlam, Alejandro Jodorowsky, and Robert LaVigne, among others. In 1966 he brought out The Hashish Cookbook under the name of Panama Rose, and Jilala, an LP record of Moroccan trance music, and two years later he directed and starred in the award-winning film The Invasion of Thunderbolt Pagoda. In the 1970s he went to Kathmandu and started the Starstreams Poetry Series under the Bardo Matrix imprint, publishing on rice paper the work of writers such as Gregory Corso, Charles Henri Ford, Angus MacLise, and Paul Bowles. He also published his own work including Poems from the Cosmic Crypt, Seven Marvels, and Gilded Splinters. He has had numerous exhibitions and gallery shows of his photographs throughout Europe and the United States, and he has photographed many book and record covers, including John McLaughlin's Devotion, Pharoah Sanders's Message From Home, and Spirit's The Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus. A silk-screen edition of his Mylar portrait of Jimi Hendrix, called Reflections, was used on the recent CD The Ultimate Experience. In 2006 he was invited to give a reading at the Whitney Biennial, which also featured an exhibit of his photographs and a showing of The Invasion of The Thunderbolt Pagoda, which was released that year as a DVD. His film Kings with Straw Mats, a documentary of the Indian religious ceremony Kumbh Mela, is available at Mystic Fire Video. There is an online photo gallery at www.mysticfire.com of Ira Cohen's portraits of India. He is presently working with Will Swofford on the publication of a new literary arts anthology, Celestial Grafitti, and his photo series "The Bandaged Poets," edited by Michael Rothenberg and Suzi Winson, will be released next year from Fish Drum, Inc.Ira Cohen's collections of poetry include The Stauffenberg Cycle and Other Poems (Holland), From the Divan of Petra Vogt (Rotterdam), On Feet of Gold (Synergetic Press), Media Shamans Ratio 3 (with Gerard Malanga and Angus MacLise, Temple Press, England), Minbad Sinbad, a book of writings and photos dealing with Morocco published in French (Didier Devillez, Brussels, 1998), Whatever You Say May Be Held Against You, a book of handwritten poems printed in facsimile by Shivistan, Woodstock, New York, Chaos & Glory, published by Elik Press, Salt Lake City, and Poems from the Akashic Record, published by Goodie at Panther Press, New York. =ichael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge http://www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: david.chirot@gmail.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: No to intolerance and Islamophobia! (from Jewish Voice for Peace & US Campaign to End the Occupation) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On October 22-26 the so-called Terrorism Awareness Project, will send extremist speakers to campuses across the country to spread a message of intolerance and Islamophobia, in a campaign billed as "the biggest conservative campus protest ever." Spread the word! Ask your friends to join Jewish Voice for Peace in our condemnation of this campaign of racism and bigotry! For more information, go here: http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizations/jvfp/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=754 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:49:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Wedding Poem by Raymond Carver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's a lovely wedding poem by Raymond Carver entitled "Cherish." Actually, it's a poem that would be perfect for a wedding. From the window I see her bend to the roses holding close to the bloom so as not to prick her fingers. With the other hand she clips, pauses and clips, more alone in the world than I had known. She won’t look up, not now. She’s alone with roses and with something else I can only think, not say. I know the names of those bushes given for our late wedding: Love, Honor, Cherish – the last the rose she holds out to me suddenly, having entered the house between glances. I press my nose to it, draw the sweetness in, let it cling – scent of promise, of treasure. My hand on her wrist to bring her close, her eyes green as river-moss. Saying it then, against what comes: wife, while I can, while my breath, each hurried petal can still find her. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 09:02:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <4D5C7718-CF42-4493-829C-B94A7DAB56AC@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can sympathize with Mr. Pollet. Again, I avoided the small dealer. In my previous post I mentioned the damage I did to large retail stores, but my really lucrative boost were from museums, especially the National Gallery in Washington D.C. where I presently live. In today's post 9/11 world it would be difficult for a thief to get away with as much as I got away with. Pierre Joris wrote: Sylvester – I can assure you that as a serious book-rat I also spent much moola in that shop – & still have most of those books, among them Jung's Alchemical Studies, Dreams, & Mysterium Conjunctionis – the bollingen ones that cost me a month's rent! (But then I always felt it easier to fight off the lanflord than an irate bookshop manager...) – Pierre On Oct 18, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Sylvester Pollet wrote: > Pierre, You rat! (that's not a flame, it's just that I was > Assistant Manager of the Eighth St. Bookshop then.) I'm glad I > didn't have to catch you. It wasn't the people who would actually > read a book that bothered me so much, it was the junkies & > professional thieves, sent in with a shopping list from small fence > bookshops. They'd take big pricey art books, or series like the > Bollingen Complete Works of Carl Jung, a volume or two at a time, > on order. As the job gradually changed from talking about books to > policing thieves, I decided to head for the territories. Sylvester > > Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:09:50 -0400 > From: Pierre Joris > Subject: Re: Steal this book > > In the late sixties I stole a copy of Abbie Hoffman's STEAL THIS > BOOK =20= > > from the eighth street bookshop in Manhattan. The impulse-steal had > =20 > not so much to do with that book or its title, but with the fact > that =20= > > Abbie was discreetly patrolling the bookshop, in my opinion in > order =20 > prevent his title from coming true. =96 Pierre ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 09:06:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0710191105l7732c079kc881f7a2d6e98d7d@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable bpNichol's "Prayer," in Art Facts (Chax, 1990),=20 and I think it's also in the Oxford Book of=20 Canadian Poetry, or it's right here -- maybe more meditative than= celebratory: Prayer teach me song, i would sing, teach me love. i would i were open to it. teach me to pray privately, praise quietly those things i should. show me the grace of movement & touch =97 that much i would offer to her. teach me more =97 a way for me to reach her who beckons hesitantly. teach me to be sure. I also think there is potentially very fine work=20 to choose from in Phyllis Webb's marvelous Naked Poems (1965). Ed Dorn's 24 Love Poems offer some great choices=20 as well. They're in the Collected Poems=20 1956-1974, and at least some of them in the later Selected Poems as well. Neruda offers some great selections, too. charles At 11:05 AM 10/19/2007, you wrote: >hey all-- > >i agreed to read a poem at a friend's wedding. barring the usual >shakespeare, browning, etc--does anyone have any suggestions? i haven't= got >time to pore over o'hara's collected, tho i would love to find such a= modern >love poem! > >any and all suggestions welcome! > >thanks (for saving my behind!), > >angela > >(backchannel if you wish) charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then Chax Press 520-620-1626 (studio) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com chax.org 650 E. 9th St. Tucson, AZ 85705 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 09:24:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a poem that qualifies, although it's ending is too sentimental, and it's still in the draft stages: Presence The little girl is afraid of the dark: is it as light as a duck? does a feather feel sad to you? Her father reads to her, it's a story about her mother, and the life the three of them shared: how old is your anger? does the rain cast a shadow? where does it live? What about his story? that unwritten chapter without an author, Fatherhood Which hour wears a promise? What month sounds like a vow and doesn't break? The girl listens to her father: how deep is the weather? does your mother still play with you? must snow melt so soon? where does it hide? The little girl hears her mother: do dreams float? is my voice a feather? does the moon change colors while she's sleeping? what's taller than a wish? Which angel holds in her hand your first and last names, and all of their secrets? Tracey Gagne wrote: Seems like Shel Silverstein has the qualities you're looking for. On 10/18/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > If II remember correctly, Robert Pinsky's "An Explanation of America" uses > this device. > > "W.B. Keckler" wrote: I was blogging about a > particular poem that struck me for the way it > simultaneously plays between the levels...i.e. the idea of poetry > addressed TO > children and at the same time seeing childhood from a distance...I was > wondering > if anybody knew of any other poems where the author is writing it to a > child, > but the poem is designed to be read in dual (or multifarious) ways....that > is, the poem holds a certain charm for a child, but as the child grows he > or > she will most likely read it as a vastly more mature poem...I think the > Palmer > poem from Notes for Echo Lake is a classic example of this...but I was > trying > to think of others and I could remember reading such poems but could not > pinpoint particular authors/poems....any suggestions? > > > the following is from today's... > > _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ > (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) > > the poem by Elias appears there... > > > > > > I was reading around in Meddles into Preclusion, Che Elias's book, and was > really drawn into this particular multipartite poem. I've always loved > poems > that ostensibly are written for children, especially when they are darkly > freighted with adult fears, trauma and gravity--disguised lest the images > hit > childhood with full-force. It's almost a genre that's never been > recognized. > Michael Palmer had some very wonderful poems that would fall in this > category > (I'm thinking of poems like "Song of the Round Man" from Notes for Echo > Lake > which is dedicated "for Sarah when she's older.") "I am sad today said the > sad-eyed man/ for I have locked my head in a Japanese box // and lost the > key." > There are ways of telling children things about the world, and there are > ways > to soften the blows. Isn't that the raison d'etre of fairy tales? I find > poems of this sort (which are themselves rather like wise beings, wise > guides in > fairy tales, waiting to assist the dreamer/reader through the years) among > the most touching poems, often. Elias doesn't explicitly state this is a > poem > of this sort, but it's how it struck me. Several of the sections are > titled > with names, perhaps of people (children?) they are addressed to, perhaps > to let > us know that they are portraits. Here are some excerpts that I think > scramble > the linguistic DNA of fairy tales very nicely. They seem to possess the > key > to magic language that children are usually given by the grace of birth, > but > which they somehow lose over the years... > > > > > > > > _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ > (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:46:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Oct 23: Eileen Myles reading in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit EILEEN MYLES READING TUESDAY OCTOBER 23, 1:00 P.M. JOAN FLASCH ARTISTS' BOOK COLLECTION the School of the Art Institute of Chicago Sharp Building, 37 South Wabash Flaxman Library, room 508 Free Eileen Myles is probably America's best-known unofficial poet. Her latest book is "Sorry, Tree" in which she describes "some nature" as well as the transmigration of souls from the east coast to the west. Bust Magazine calls Myles "the rock star of modern poetry" and Holland Cotter in The New York Times describes her as "a cult figure to a generation of post-punk females forming their own literary avant garde." Eileen arrived in New York after college, (U. Mass. (Boston)) gaining the friendship of Allen Ginsberg, working for poet James Schuyler, becoming a habitue of the household of Ted Berrigan and Alice Notley and generally being a notable part of the turbulent punk and art scene that animated Manhattan's East Village, giving her first reading at CBGB's in 1974. A virtuoso performer of her work - she's read and performed at colleges, performance spaces, and bookstores across North America as well as in Europe, Iceland, Ireland and Russia. She's published more than 20 volumes of poetry, fiction, articles, plays and libretti including Hell (an opera with composer Michael Webster, 2004) Skies, (2001), on my way, (2001), Cool for You, (a novel, 2000), School of Fish, (1997), Maxfield Parrish, (1995), Not Me, (1991), and Chelsea Girls, (stories, 1994). In 1995, with Liz Kotz, she edited The New Fuck You/Adventures in Lesbian Reading (Semiotext(e). In 1992 she conducted an openly female write-in campaign for President of the United States. In the 80s she was Artistic Director of St. Mark's Poetry Project. In '97 and again in 2007 Eileen toured with Sister Spit, a post-punk female performance troupe. She has been a professor of writing at UCSD since 2002. In 2007 she received The Andy Warhol/Creative Capital art writing fellowship. She contributes to a wide number of publication including Bookforum, the Believer, and lately Cabinet, has written catalogue essays about Sadie Benning, Peggy Awesh and Nicole Eisenman and she blogs weekly on art at http://openfordesign.msn.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:58:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Crane's Bill Books Subject: David Abel & Mitch Highfill at Unnameable Books 10/28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ** please forward to potentially interested parties ** You are cordially invited to a poetry reading by David Abel & Mitch Highfill Sunday, October 28 5:00 pm free admission Unnameable Books 456 Bergen Street (between 5th Avenue and Flatbush) Brooklyn, NY 718-789-1534 unnameablebooks@earthlink.net www.unnameablebooks.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:13:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <196933.90865.qm@web52410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I steal books from Alan Sondheim all the time. And then I sell them back to him. scheming capitalist, adam ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:46:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: POETRY READING Comments: To: Mattes50@aol.com, sgavrons@barnard.edu, sdolin@earthlink.net, Sazibree@aol.com, hursts@sunyacc.edu, hokumakai@aol.com, sdonadio@middlebury.edu, millers@stjohns.edu, sclay@interport.net, sed372@aol.com, susanwheeler@earthlink.net, tenah@beasys.com, tennessee@thing.net, thilleman@excite.com, tom@goprofab.com, mamtaf@juno.com, tlavazzi@kbcc.cuny.edu, UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU, vernagillis@earthlink.net, wginger@stjohns.edu, z@culturalsociety.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-41577DB2; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-471A4CFF2EC9=======" --=======AVGMAIL-471A4CFF2EC9======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-41577DB2 POETRY READING Saturday October 27: The Ear Inn, 326 Spring Street (west of Greenwich Street), New York City. 3 PM. Betsy Andrews Michael Heller Susan Tichy ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) available at www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good bookstores. Survey of work at: http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm Collaborations with Ellen Fishman Johnson at: http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html --=======AVGMAIL-471A4CFF2EC9======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-41577DB2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1081 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 = 5:41 PM --=======AVGMAIL-471A4CFF2EC9=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:47:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: POETRY READING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-41577DB2; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-471A4D3E316A=======" --=======AVGMAIL-471A4D3E316A======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-41577DB2 POETRY READING Saturday October 27: The Ear Inn, 326 Spring Street (west of Greenwich Street), New York City. 3 PM. Betsy Andrews Michael Heller Susan Tichy ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) available at www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good bookstores. Survey of work at: http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm Collaborations with Ellen Fishman Johnson at: http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html --=======AVGMAIL-471A4D3E316A======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-41577DB2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1081 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 = 5:41 PM --=======AVGMAIL-471A4D3E316A=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:14:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: Anna Moschovakis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All, I am looking for Anna Moschovakis' email. Please backchannel. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matt chambers Subject: Pilot 2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, The 2007 issue of Pilot is now available. It is a collection of 16 individual chapbooks by 16 poets working/living/writing in the UK. Sean Bonney, Emily Critchley, Matt Ffytche, Kai Fierle-Hedrick, Giles Goodland, Jeff Hilson, Piers Hugill, Frances Kruk, Jow Lindsay, Marianne Morris, Neil Pattison, Reitha Pattison, Simon Perril, Sophie Robinson, Harriet Tarlo, & Scott Thurston To order Pilot: $10 for US/Canada $15 for UK/Ireland/international I would much prefer Paypal, but if you want, mail a check or cash to: Matt Chambers 30 Henley Rd. Buffalo, NY 14216 USA As a note: I really would like not to charge for this magazine, but ever since the US Postal Service got rid of surface shipping, mailing to the UK, etc. has been very expensive. I apologize for this. And please send along your mailing address. All best. -Matt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:17:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: <000001c81344$dbade650$6401a8c0@rose> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed But I buy them cheaply! - Alan On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Adam Tobin wrote: > I steal books from Alan Sondheim all the time. > And then I sell them back to him. > > scheming capitalist, > adam > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:18:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Potree Journal Subject: contact info for Lisa Robertson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Anyone have email/snail mail for Lisa Roberston? If so, please backchannel... The Editors Little Red Leaves -- www.littleredleaves.com www.littleredleavesjournal.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:19:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Majzels Subject: Re: contact info for Lisa Robertson In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit asil.robertson@gmail.com On 20-Oct-07, at 4:18 PM, Potree Journal wrote: > Anyone have email/snail mail for Lisa Roberston? If so, please > backchannel... > > The Editors > Little Red Leaves > -- > www.littleredleaves.com > www.littleredleavesjournal.blogspot.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:20:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Its a nice, sweet poem. Its incessant questioning reminded me of Pablo Neruda's "Book Of Questions", which are also sweet, nice, imaginative poems........and of course a little sentimental. Thanks for sharing it. Aryanil ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve russell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 12:24 PM Subject: Re: Question about poems addressed to children >I have a poem that qualifies, although it's ending is too sentimental, and >it's still in the draft stages: > > Presence > > > The little girl is afraid of the dark: > > is it as light as a duck? > does a feather feel sad to you? > > Her father reads to her, > it's a story about her mother, and the life the three of them shared: > > how old is your anger? > does the rain cast a shadow? > where does it live? > > What about his story? > that unwritten chapter > without an author, Fatherhood > > Which hour wears a promise? > What month sounds like a vow and doesn't break? > > The girl listens to her father: > > how deep is the weather? > does your mother still play with you? > must snow melt so soon? > where does it hide? > > The little girl hears her mother: > > do dreams float? > is my voice a feather? > does the moon change colors while she's > sleeping? > what's taller than a wish? > > Which angel holds in her hand > your first and last names, and all of their secrets? > > > > > > Tracey Gagne wrote: Seems like Shel Silverstein > has the qualities you're looking for. > > On 10/18/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> >> If II remember correctly, Robert Pinsky's "An Explanation of America" >> uses >> this device. >> >> "W.B. Keckler" wrote: I was blogging about a >> particular poem that struck me for the way it >> simultaneously plays between the levels...i.e. the idea of poetry >> addressed TO >> children and at the same time seeing childhood from a distance...I was >> wondering >> if anybody knew of any other poems where the author is writing it to a >> child, >> but the poem is designed to be read in dual (or multifarious) >> ways....that >> is, the poem holds a certain charm for a child, but as the child grows he >> or >> she will most likely read it as a vastly more mature poem...I think the >> Palmer >> poem from Notes for Echo Lake is a classic example of this...but I was >> trying >> to think of others and I could remember reading such poems but could not >> pinpoint particular authors/poems....any suggestions? >> >> >> the following is from today's... >> >> _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ >> (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) >> >> the poem by Elias appears there... >> >> >> >> >> >> I was reading around in Meddles into Preclusion, Che Elias's book, and >> was >> really drawn into this particular multipartite poem. I've always loved >> poems >> that ostensibly are written for children, especially when they are darkly >> freighted with adult fears, trauma and gravity--disguised lest the images >> hit >> childhood with full-force. It's almost a genre that's never been >> recognized. >> Michael Palmer had some very wonderful poems that would fall in this >> category >> (I'm thinking of poems like "Song of the Round Man" from Notes for Echo >> Lake >> which is dedicated "for Sarah when she's older.") "I am sad today said >> the >> sad-eyed man/ for I have locked my head in a Japanese box // and lost the >> key." >> There are ways of telling children things about the world, and there are >> ways >> to soften the blows. Isn't that the raison d'etre of fairy tales? I find >> poems of this sort (which are themselves rather like wise beings, wise >> guides in >> fairy tales, waiting to assist the dreamer/reader through the years) >> among >> the most touching poems, often. Elias doesn't explicitly state this is a >> poem >> of this sort, but it's how it struck me. Several of the sections are >> titled >> with names, perhaps of people (children?) they are addressed to, perhaps >> to let >> us know that they are portraits. Here are some excerpts that I think >> scramble >> the linguistic DNA of fairy tales very nicely. They seem to possess the >> key >> to magic language that children are usually given by the grace of birth, >> but >> which they somehow lose over the years... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ >> (http://www.joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) >> >> >> >> ************************************** See what's new at >> http://www.aol.com >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1075 - Release Date: > 10/17/2007 9:38 AM > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:28:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: Four recent books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are four recent books for which I've written back jacket = endorsements and which I'd call to everyone's attention: =20 [Francis Picabia, I Am a Beautiful Monster, translated by Mark = Lowenthal, MIT Press] "Like a number of other modernist masters - = Schwitters, Arp, Picasso, Kandinsky - Picabia's reputation as an artist = has long overshadowed, even hidden, his more than equal achievement as a = writer and poet. Now, in Mark Lowenthal's masterful re-creation, the = secret is finally out. Picabia emerges here full-blown among his = contemporaries and as a forerunner to the most adventurous poets of our = own time. Beautiful and monstrous by turns the artist and his works = (his words) are a testament to what happens when a poet creates up to = and including his limits - and ours."=20 =20 [Hannah Weiner, Hannah Weiner's Open House, edited by Patrick F. Durgin, = Kenning Editions] "Hannah Weiner's work, so lovingly presented here, = brought her into the exploration of new ways & means for making poetry - = a process by which she would have left her mark under any circumstances = on avant-garde poetics & practice. The still more remarkable change in = her later work came, spontaneously, with the onset of an experience, an = ongoing alteration of perception in which visible words entered her = field of vision - as cause of wonder & as 'messages' to be included in = the poems that followed. If her art both early & late insures her = standing within the twentieth-century avant-garde, it connects her as = well to the experience & writings of many traditional poet-mystics = (clairvoyants in her word for them & for herself). It is, when taken as = a whole, an achievement without precedent or comparison among her = sometimes better-known contemporaries."=20 =20 [Brude Stater, A Labyrinth of Visions, Ahadada Books online edition at = http://www.ahadadabooks.com/content/view/119/41/] "To say it quickly: = Bruce Stater's Labyrinth of Vision is little short of extraordinary - a = work that ties language to a journey truly taken & a mind in extremis = that acts to record it. Stater, as I read him, writes with a sense of = imaginings that reminds me of a poet like Gerard de Nerval in his = visionary prose work, Aurelia, where 'dream is a second life' & 'an = overflow' into the everyday. As with Nerval & a small company of = others, then & now, the vision & the language are inseparable: 'a = journey of remembrance & metaphor,' as the title of Stater's first = chapter tells us. If you want to take that as merely literature, feel = free to do so; it is that & something more: a place where metaphor rings = true & is - for the duration of the vision - the only truth there is. = 'It is light, it is dark,' the old Aztecs said in defining their own = labyrinths, & it is also the mark in Stater's labyrinthine journey of a = strong new voice in poetry."=20 =20 [Gabriel Gudding, Rhode Island Notebook, Dalkey Archive Press] "Poetry, = wrote Diderot at the beginnings of what would come to be 'our time,' = must have something in it that is barbaric, vast, & wild. It is some = such wildness & vastness (multiplied several times over) that marks = Gabriel Gudding's unexpurgated & ever-more-inclusive Notebook. In = writing or recording it, he creates an ultimate on-the-road poem, = ranging between the personal & political, the familial (familiar) & the = transcendent (transformal), while never stopping to apologize or to = correct. Seen in that light & its attendant darkness, Rhode Island = Notebook is a modern/postmodern epic as a poem-including-everything. An = incredibly human/humane book at bottom, it is also Gudding's road of = excess, as Blake once had it, leading him (& us) to the palace of = wisdom."=20 =20 Jerome Rothenberg "Language is Delphi." 1026 San Abella --Novalis Encinitas, CA 92024 (760) 436-9923 jrothenberg@cox.net http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/rothenberg/ new ethnopoetics web site: http://ubu.com/ethno/ j.r. in spanish: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/rothenberg/esp/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:32:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Picabia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi David: I thought it should be a review of the book. I just could not see the title info on the Nation website. Hope things are well with you David. D David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: Stephen-- the review IS of the MIT book > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:35:46 -0700 > From: steph484@PACBELL.NET > Subject: Re: Picabia > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Unless I am blind to the mention, Barry, I do not see any mention of the (new?) MIT of Picabia's writings. Saw it on the Black Oak table this past weekend. Includes a smattering of his graphic work. A well done book on first blush (rush). > > In any case, nice article - congrats. > > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > Barry Schwabsky wrote:Members of this list may be interested in my piece on the poetry of Francis Picabia, in the current issue of The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:21:08 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You see, I've always said Alan was damned lucky, :-) On 10/21/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > But I buy them cheaply! > > - Alan > > On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Adam Tobin wrote: > > > I steal books from Alan Sondheim all the time. > > And then I sell them back to him. > > > > scheming capitalist, > > adam > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:08:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: tinytourTINYTOURtinytourTINYTOUR Dorothea Lasky and Joshua Beckman tinytourTINYTOURtinytourTINYTOUR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline WATCH THESE READINGS http://www.birdinsnow.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:24:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: dusts and waters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed dusts http://www.asondheim.org/romania.mp4 watar, hittite, watar, mayim hittite, (plural), mayim hebrew, (plural), water/waters hebrew, english water/waters 'on waters' the - face water of facing waters' sky, - water water surface facing 'on sky, face surface the waters is when in is distinct in patterns, turmoil, streams distinct within patterns, streams streams waters within when or gatherings pools, and gatherings dispersings and of dispersings waters, waters, filtering filtering or waters. pools, dialogic of surface, water-air water-air intermixture, intermixture, scattered scattered clouds, clouds, the foams, waves, scattered solitons, foams, ripples waves, basin fulfilling, filling, the fulfilling, basin, eroding filtering, basin, of filtering, the dissolving, forms basin beneath forms rupture of quantity basin that of height quantity falling not into placing, place, whatever not the placing, quantity whatever waters, is, some left some behind is avatartist filterings filterings of plasmas, insufficient insufficient formings formings for for clean clean avatartist proper bodies, dusts, and radiations... proper and waters http://www.asondheim.org/romania.mp4 and hittite, and watar, watar, proper dusts mayim bodies, (plural), dusts, radiations... hebrew, radiations... radiations... hebrew, radiations... water/waters watar, radiations... hebrew, mayim radiations... hebrew, hebrew, radiations... (plural), water/waters radiations... mayim 'on hittite, the watar, watar, the mayim watar, the hebrew, watar, the english watar, the 'on watar, 'on face hittite, english of mayim water/waters the hebrew, hebrew, waters' water/waters hebrew, waters' 'on (plural), waters' face (plural), the the hebrew, the - water/waters of water english face facing 'on the facing face 'on the the 'on the - 'on facing facing 'on water the the - water face waters' surface the waters' surface - the surface water the surface the the surface water the water waters waters' sky, when - the water water facing is the facing is water water is waters water water water facing water is facing when turmoil, sky, waters distinct water surface distinct waters water patterns, water water patterns, is water distinct turmoil, water distinct patterns, surface turmoil, streams waters in within water is streams is water streams turmoil, water streams patterns, water streams within water within or is streams pools, in streams gatherings turmoil, patterns, and patterns, distinct and within distinct and or turmoil, and pools, distinct gatherings and distinct pools, of patterns, or waters, within streams waters, streams streams waters pools, within waters and within waters, of within waters, waters streams of filtering or dispersings waters. pools, and the and gatherings dialogic of gatherings dialogic waters gatherings the waters. gatherings the the and waters. of dispersings filtering the of waters surface, waters waters, surface, filtering waters, surface, the of surface, of waters, the surface, waters, of water-air waters of scattered waters. dialogic scattered the the clouds, of waters. clouds, surface, waters. clouds, intermixture, waters. scattered clouds, the intermixture, scattered dialogic water-air foams, of surface, waves, surface, surface, solitons, intermixture, the solitons, clouds, the waves, scattered the waves, waves, surface, foams, ripples water-air scattered - intermixture, clouds, dialogic scattered scattered dialogic scattered scattered dialogic waves, scattered dialogic ripples scattered - dialogic scattered - of clouds, ripples basin scattered solitons, basin waves, waves, - ripples waves, - dialogic foams, - the foams, basin basin waves, the filling, solitons, the fulfilling, ripples of eroding dialogic dialogic the of - the basin - the filling, - eroding eroding dialogic fulfilling, basin, dialogic filling, filtering, the - dissolving, basin - dissolving, filling, basin dissolving, eroding basin dissolving, basin, basin dissolving, dissolving, basin filtering, the - basin, surface filling, the of eroding eroding the basin, eroding the filtering, fulfilling, the the fulfilling, of of eroding of basin the surface - basin, the the filtering, dissolving, basin the filtering, basin of filtering, basin basin filtering, the the dissolving, - basin dissolving, - beneath the basin the of the the basin of surface the of the basin of the beneath of beneath surface the forms - basin basin the the basin rupture basin the rupture beneath the rupture surface - rupture the the the of basin - quantity forms surface or beneath the quantity surface the quantity the beneath quantity of beneath or quantity the or quantity the quantity of surface of the the rupture the rupture the basin quantity the basin quantity the the of the of basin rupture of and of that height quantity quantity of quantity or of of or of basin or of height or height of quantity and waters, that basin the of basin waters basin the waters and of waters of of waters waters, the the waters the waters, falling basin the place, height of place, of of not waters, height not waters height place, into height place, not of into placing, the falling whatever waters, waters the waters the the into the the not the the placing, the whatever the the whatever is, waters placing, some into not is place, place, is placing, place, is the into is is, place, some is place, is, left not quantity behind placing, quantity - the the avatartist is, whatever avatartist is whatever - behind whatever - - the behind filterings quantity left of is, is waters, is is waters, left some plasmas, - some waters, filterings some waters, waters, some of plasmas, is filterings formings behind avatartist for - - for filterings - for waters, behind for insufficient - formings for - formings clean avatartist insufficient and filterings plasmas, proper waters, waters, bodies, insufficient of bodies, formings of bodies, clean of proper proper waters, and dusts, plasmas, clean radiations... insufficient clean formings for clean formings proper formings dusts, formings formings radiations... for dusts, clean bodies, proper bodies, dusts, proper proper proper proper bodies, dusts, radiations... radiations... dusts and waters http://www.asondheim.org/romania.mp4 or pools, gatherings an or pools, gatherings an ispersings of waters, waters filtering waters. ispersings of waters, waters filtering waters. ispersings of waters, waters filtering waters. ialogic of the surface, water-air intermixture, scattere clou clou clous, s, s, the ialogic of the basin - filling, fulfilling, eroing the basin, filtering, ialogic of the basin - filling, fulfilling, ero ing the basin, filtering, ing the basin, filtering, ies, usts, raiations... usts, raiations... an iations... proper bo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 13:03:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Ron Silliman/Tracie Morris at Wayne State Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron Silliman and Tracie Morris A Reading/Performance Authors of The Age of Huts (compleat) (University of California Press) and= =20 Intermission (Soft Skull Press) =93It would be impossible to overestimate the importance of Ron Silliman=92s= =20 Age of Huts; it was ground-breaking when it first began to appear,=20 piecemeal, a quarter of a century ago, and it remains a revolutionary work= =20 today. With its proliferative architecture, its encyclopedic arc, and its=20 endlessly inventive methodology, The Age of Huts, with every sentence,=20 renews its engagement with the world.=94 =ADLyn Hejinian, University of California, Berkeley =93Morris made her mark on the then-burgeoning Hip-Hop influenced New York= =20 poetry scene a decade ago when she won both the Nuyorican Poets Cafe Grand= =20 Slam championship and the National Haiku Slam Championship. Soon=20 thereafter, she began to add more experimental sounds to her work,=20 including free jazz and African and Indian classical music. In her=20 performance poetry, she creates soundscapes that blend rock, jazz, hip-hop= =20 and funk with experimental digital loops, samples and special effects. =ADTracie Morris web site Friday, October 26, 2007, 3-5 PM Welcome Center Auditorium, Warren and Woodward Avenues, Wayne State=20 University, Detroit. Free and open to the public Preceded by an informal talk by Ron Silliman on the poetics of blogging and= =20 the editing of his renowned site Silliman=92s Blog=20 (http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com) Friday, October 26, 1-2:30 PM English Department Conference Room, 10304 5057 Woodward Avenue =93Silliman's Argus-eyed daily also includes whatever dance, music, and= films=20 the editor is attending to, and his daily bulletins and commentaries remind= =20 me more of an arts newspaper than a journal. . . . His blog is the best=20 vehicle we have at this point for news on what is new.=94 =96Clayton Eshleman, editor, Sulfur Ron Silliman has written and edited 26 books to date. One of the founding=20 members of the West Coast Language school of poets, Silliman is known for=20 his use of the =93New Sentence=94 in constructing his capacious, open-ended= =20 prose poems. Between 1979 &=20 2004, Silliman wrote a single=20 poem, entitled The Alphabet. Silliman=20 sees his poetry as being part of a single poem or lifework, and has begun=20 writing a new poem entitled Universe, the first section of which will be=20 called Revelator. Silliman's fame has grown considerably since=20 2002, due to his popular and=20 controversial weblog,=20 Silliman's Blog. Debuting on August 29,=20 2002, it is now (arguably) the most influential English-language blog on=20 the web devoted to contemporary poetry and poetics. In early February 2007,= =20 Silliman's Blog surpassed 1,000,000 hits. He is also currently=20 collaborating with nine other West Coast poets on The Grand Piano: An=20 Experiment in Collective Autobiography, 1975=9680. Tracie Morris, originally from Brooklyn, New York, emerged as a writer from= =20 the Lower East Side poetry=20 scene in the early 1990s, where she became known as a premier performer in= =20 the "slam" scene located in the=20 Nuyorican=20 Poets' Cafe. She has toured nationally with other "slam poets," including=20 Maggie Estep,=20 Dael Orlandersmith,=20 Mike= =20 Tyler, and Paul Beatty. She has=20 also collaborated with musicians she met through the=20 Black Rock Coalition, an= =20 organization that she was affiliated with from the late 1980s through the=20 mid-1990s. Morris is known as a sound artist/sound poet and theatrical=20 performer; her works are available at PennSound=20 (http://writing.upenn.edu/= pennsound/x/Morris.html).=20 She is the author of Intermission (Soft Skull Press, 1998), and teaches=20 creative writing at=20 Eastern Michigan= =20 University. (More information on Silliman and Morris can be found on Wikipedia, and=20 other sites.) Sponsored by: Revisioning Authors, a Working Group of the Humanities=20 Center, Wayne State University Contact information: Prof. Barrett Watten, Department of English, WSU b.watten@wayne.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:24:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: EJOYCE Subject: Erica Hunt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have Erica Hunt's contact information? Yours, Lisa Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:58:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Steal this book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit interesting: any chance Alan lives near d.c.? Alan Sondheim wrote: But I buy them cheaply! - Alan On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Adam Tobin wrote: > I steal books from Alan Sondheim all the time. > And then I sell them back to him. > > scheming capitalist, > adam > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:11:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Erica Hunt Comments: To: EJOYCE In-Reply-To: 2007102119242546773ec38f@webmail1.edinboro.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I need it too, as it happens -- if somebody could backchannel? On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 03:24 PM, EJOYCE wrote: > Does anyone have Erica Hunt's contact information? > >Yours, >Lisa Joyce > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:18:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: NYC Reading Comments: To: poetz-owner@yahoogroups.com, pembroke9@yahoo.com, slurp@mailbucket.org, staff@poems.com, poetrynj-owner@yahoogroups.com Comments: cc: kimmelma@njit.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anselm Berrigan, Madeline Tiger, Burt Kimmelman, Rosanne Wasserman, = Joseph Richie, Steve Fried,Gus Chaviano, Tom Weatherly and others: Readings in Honor of Tom Weatherly's 65th Birthday Thursday, November 1 6-8 pm Pace University Multipurpose Room 1 Pace Plaza (opposite City Hall Park) NYC 10038 212.346.1200 Admission Free Link for Directions: http://appserv.pace.edu/execute/page.cfm?doc_id=3D16157 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 01:35:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City 45 Print and PDF Editions Available In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ---------------------- Hi all, The print edition of Boog City 45 is now available. You can read the =20 pdf version Wednesday at: http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc45.pdf Thanks, David -------------------- Boog City 45 available today featuring: --"Generations of Inspiration and Community: Poetry Project Directors =20 Past and Present Talk." With Stacy Szymaszek having recently begun her =20 tenure as artistic director of The Poetry Project at St. Mark's =20 Church, Boog City politics editor Christina Strong and I recently =20 conducted email interviews with her and a past director, Anne Waldman, =20 about the East Village, community, and the future of The Poetry =20 Project. About half of the dialogue appears in the print edition (and =20 online pdf) of the paper, while the entire dialogue is already =20 available online: http://about.welcometoboogcity.com/ ***Our Music section, edited by Jonathan Berger*** --"Who are the Sprinkle Genies? A less annoying B-52's, a less foreign =20 Sugarcubes, a trashier Ween." --from East Village Stalwarts, =20 Instrumental Artists, and Guilty Pleasures: New Music--Sprinkle =20 Genies, Bobby Perfect, Guilt by Association Compilation reviewed by =20 Berger ***Our d.a. levy at 65 section*** featuring: *Our Printed Matter section, edited by Mark Lamoureux* --"What happens if we let go of the mythology surrounding levy's life =20 and attempt to read the poetry as atheists or agnostics? Is it even =20 possible?" --from Heavy Rotation; ukanhavyrfuckinciti bak. D.A. LEVY: =20 A TRIBUTE TO THE MAN, AN ANTHOLOGY OF HIS POETRY edited by rjs (t.l. =20 kryss/Ghost Press Cleveland, 1967; fascimile edition, 2007), reviewed =20 by Gary Sullivan --"I'm guessing he wouldn't have wanted this kind of attention. levy =20 never wanted to be a leader." --from Follow the Leader?; d.a. levy and =20 the mimeograph revolution edited by Larry Smith and Ingrid Swanberg =20 (Bottom Dog Press), reviewed by Christina Strong. *Excerpts from Gary Sullivan's in progress d.a. levy comic* *Poetry and visual art by levy* ----- *And photos from Greg Fuchs.* ----- And thanks to our copy editor, Joe Bates. ----- Please patronize our advertisers: BlazeVOX Books * http://www.blazevox.org/ Bowery Poetry Club * http://www.bowerypoetry.com Cuneiform Press * http://www.cuneiformpress.com/ ::fait accompli:: * http://www.nickpiombino.blogspot.com/ Krista Weaver * http://www.kristaweaver.com/ ----- Advertising or donation inquiries can be directed to editor@boogcity.com or by calling 212-842-BOOG (2664) ----- 2,250 copies of Boog City are distributed among, and available for free at, the following locations: MANHATTAN *THE EAST VILLAGE* Acme Underground Anthology Film Archives Bluestockings Bowery Poetry Club Caf=E9 Pick Me Up Cakeshop Lakeside Lounge Life Caf=E9 Living Room Mission Caf=E9 Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 Pianos St. Mark's Books St. Mark's Church Shakespeare & Co. Sidewalk Caf=E9 Sunshine Theater Trash and Vaudeville *OTHER PARTS OF MANHATTAN* Angelika Film Center and Caf=E9 Hotel Chelsea Mercer Street Books Other Music Think Coffee BROOKLYN *WILLIAMSBURG* Academy Records Bliss Caf=E9 Galapagos Sideshow Gallery Soundfix/Fix Cafe Spoonbill & Sugartown Supercore Caf=E9 *GREENPOINT* (available mid-week) Greenpoint Coffee House Lulu's Photoplay Thai Cafe The Pencil Factory -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://www.welcometoboogcity.com T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 05:38:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: LitWalks: Edward Hirsch/Garcia Lorca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series at the Bowery Poetry Club Edward Hirsch on Federico Garcia Lorca. October 22, 2007, 7:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. Award winning poet Edward Hirsch will discuss Federico Garcia Lorca's pivotal book "Poet in New York" (Poeta en Nueva York) and the young poet's journey through New York City. Edward Hirsch is a poet and critic. He has published six books of poems and won the National Book Critics Circle Award. He has also written four prose books including "How to Read a Poem," a national bestseller. Kevin Fitzpatrick on Dorothy Parker. October 28, 2007, 3:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. Kevin Fitzpatrick on Dorothy Parker and The Algonquin Round Table and the creation of the "New Yorker" magazine. Fitzpatrick is president of the Dorothy Parker Society and author of "A Journey into Dorothy Parker's New York." Sponsored by Rattapallax. October is National Humanities Month! This program is educational and fun for students, educators, and poetry lovers. Free and open to the public as part of the Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series. This lecture series features prominent poets and writers discussing historical literary figures and their relationship with key New York City landmarks. More info at www.litwalks.com These program are supported, in part, by public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Litwalks is funded by the New York Council for the Humanities, a state affiliate of the National Endowment for the Humanities and public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the New York Council for the Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities. --------------- In conjunction with the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine, Verse Theater Manhattan will present a staged reading of Robinson Jeffers's 1929 poetic drama, DEAR JUDAS, this Saturday, October 27th at 4:30PM in the Cathedral's great nave. The New York poetry community's chance to hear this rarely performed masterpiece takes place as part of the induction of Jeffers into the Poet's Corner of the Cathedral. DEAR JUDAS invokes the spirits of Jesus, Judas, Mary and Lazarus, still restless after two thousand years, haunting the scenes of Christ's final Passion, and re-enacting the epic drama of his last days. In Jeffers's radical retelling of the biblical narrative, Judas is transformed into a tragic hero, doomed by his love for his other-worldly master and condemned by fate to commit an unforgivable act of betrayal. Employing the forms of Japanese Noh theater, Jeffers's gorgeous and energetic verse provides a startling new perspective on one of the West's most enduring sacred stories. DEAR JUDAS features Joshua Spafford (Judas), PJ Sosko (Jesus), Hope Garland (Mary) and Alex Bilu (Lazarus) and is directed by VTM's artistic director, James Milton. We hope you will join us for this unique and historic event. Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:29:32 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: best poetry book store? In-Reply-To: <553610.92611.qm@web30209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable where=B9s your favorite poetry bookstore? I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser books, which is two or three doors down from SPD. If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is amazing, cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my brai= n shut down from so much poetry. I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in Philo.=20 There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd learned the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember the names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine releases= , all very beautifully done: "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare "i mean you" by john sinclair "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to admit to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:45:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 10.22.07-10.28.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 10.22.07-10.28.07 BABEL As of this morning there are fewer than 130 subscriptions left - better hur= ry=21 Season Subscription: =2475 (SAVE =2425). Tickets for individual Babel events are on sale now. They cost =2425 per e= vent. November 8 Orhan Pamuk, Turkey, Winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize Book groups (minimum three people) can subscribe at a special rate of =2460= per person for the whole season. SUBSCRIBE TODAY or PURCHASE individual ti= ckets at http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel or by calling 832-5400. Book grou= p subscriptions by phone only. ________________________________________________________________ EVENTS Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. 10.23.07 Jewish Community Book Fair Lindsay Pollock The Girl With the Gallery: Edith Gregor Halpert & the Making of the Modern Art Market Tuesday, October 23 7:30 p.m. Wine and cheese reception =2410, =245 students Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 10.25.07 Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series Aaron Belz/Shanna Compton/Jennifer L. Knox Poetry Reading Thursday, October 25, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. & The Write Thing at Medaille College Aimee Parkison Fiction Reading Thursday, October 25, 7 p.m. The Library at Huber Hall, Medaille College, 18 Agassiz Cir. & Jewish Community Book Fair Ann Kirschner Sala's Gift: My Mother's Holocaust Story Thursday, October 25, 7 p.m. Dessert reception =2410, =245 students Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 10.28.07 Burchfield-Penney Poets and Writers Chris Doda Poetry Reading Sunday, October 28, 2 p.m. Burchfield-Penney, Rockwell Hall, Buffalo State College & Rust Belt Books Michael Kelleher/Kyle Schlesinger Blazevox Books Launch for Human Scale & Hello Helicopter Sunday, October 28, 8 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St & Spoken Word Sundays Douglas Manson and Kristi Meal Sunday, October 28, 8 p.m. Allen Street Hardware, 245 Allen St. Slots for open readers available ________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:51:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-ddendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 10.22.07-10.28.07 Sorry, forgot one thing: BABEL Our first Babel Cultural Evening takes place this Friday: Turkish Night An Evening of Turkish Music, Culture, and Food When: Friday October 26,2007, 6:30 - 8:30 PM Where: International Institute of Buffalo, 864 Delaware Ave. Admission: Free (Tickets for the food can be purchased at the event) Sponsored by BABEL (www.justbuffalo.org/babel) Funded by: The John R. Oishei Foundation Presented by The International Institute of Buffalo Turkish GSA and Turkish SA at SUNY at Buffalo Buffalo Turkish Community Foundation For more information, please contact May Shogan at 883-1900 Ext 321 or mshogan=40iibuff.org ________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:09:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <947640.63445.qm@web86010.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've heard of Roethke's "I knew a woman" being so used, though I always thought it odd. My son, Benjamin Ezra Fox, had me read the first few stanzas of Browning's "Rabbi Ben Ezra" at his wedding. (Old age never had it so good.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:37:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Mary Turzillo, JE Stanley, Claire McMahon, Roger Craik In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT New books from Mary Turzillo, JE Stanley, Claire McMahon, Roger Craik at WWW.VANZENOPRESS.COM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: I'm coming to buffalo, albany, nyc, dc...this weekend! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable If you're available to come to one of these poetry readings, I hope you will. If you're available but don't know who the hell I am, there are some links and stuff at http://belz.net Also, if you're available and don't kno= w who the hell I am but don't want to click on the link, you might consider coming just to hear one of the other poets, who are very famous and do not need to self-promote the way I do. Cheers, Aaron Oct 25, 7:00 PM =AD Small Press Poetry Series, Buffalo NY With Shanna Compton and Jennifer Knox http://www.justbuffalo.org/events/spp.shtml Oct 27, 4:00 PM =AD Behind the Egg Reading Series, Albany NY With Daniel Nester, Peter Davis, and Michael Schiavo http://www.unpleasanteventschedule.com/behindtheegg/ Oct 28, 7:00 PM =AD Zinc Talk/Reading Series, NYC NY With Peter Davis and Michael Schiavo http://www.lungfull.org/zinc/ Oct 29, 8:00 PM =AD Burlesque Poetry Hour, Washington DC With Jennifer Knox, Peter Davis, and Michael Schiavo http://burlesquepoetryhour.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:39:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Oct 27: IRAQ WAR PROTEST in chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell IRAQ WAR PROTEST SATURDAY, OCTOBER 27th CHICAGO, IL *1:30 - Rally at Union Park (Ashland and Lake) *2:30 - March to downtown *4:00 - Rally at Federal Plaza (Adams & Dearborn) The Iraq War has killed more than 655,000 Iraqis or more than 500 people a day since the U.S. led invasion started. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths There have been 4,131 coalition deaths: 3,830 Americans, 2 Australians, 171 Britons, 13 Bulgarians, 1 Czech, 7 Danes, 2 Dutch, 2 Estonians, 1 Fijian, 1 Hungarian, 33 Italians, 1 Kazakh, 1 Korean, 3 Latvian, 21 Poles, 2 Romanians, 5 Salvadoran, 4 Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, 2 Thai and 18 Ukrainians as of 10/18/07. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties FOR MORE INFO: 773-384-5799 oct27chicago@gmail.com http://www.oct27chicago.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:53:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: best poetry book store? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I went to Jeff Maser's on one of my bay area family/boog trips a few =20 years back on the recommendation of the poet Kent Taylor, one of d.a. =20 levy's best friends back in the day. Maser has recently bought the =20 contents of the late Jim Lowell's Asphodel Bookshop, a vital part of =20 the Cleveland Scene in the sixties and which remained open until =20 Lowell's passing. It was remarkable to go to this little corner in this pretty warehouse =20 bldg with all of these books from Lowell's store. It was my first real =20 chance to actually touch anything that levy had actually produced. and everything around the shop was equally wondrous. the three main =20 things i remember i picked up that afternoon were this tiny book levy =20 made, the author i can't remember, using old maps; an anne waldman =20 broadside that folded down had her picture on the front and name =20 below, and opened up from the bottom had a poem on the inside; a first =20 printing of Anne Waldman and Bernadette Mayer's The Basketball =20 Article, a collaborative essay on basketball originally published in =20 Oui magazine; and a couple of pocket poets to fill holes in my set. The best part, though, was Maser himself. When I called earlier that =20 day for directions from the Bart he told me to just call when i =20 arrived and that he'd pick me up. And then, a while later I'm looking =20 through the old Asphodel stock for an hour or so, and then he comes =20 back to me and asks if I'm hungry. I tell him, yeah, I could use a =20 bite. So he invites me to go to mexican for lunch with him and his =20 girlfriend. Once there he won't let me pay, and the three of us have a =20 swell lunch, talking a whole lot more about music than books. Quoting cralan kelder : > where1s your favorite poetry bookstore? > > > > I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser books, > which is two or three doors down from SPD. > > If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is amazing= , > cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. > I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my bra= in > shut down from so much poetry. > > I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the > collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in > Philo. > > There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful > broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd learned > the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. > > Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember the > names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine release= s, > all very beautifully done: > > "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare > "i mean you" by john sinclair > "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer > > Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to admi= t > to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's > > heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:59:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit while at Harvard, one of them took classes, one of them was just an admirer does anyone remember which was which ? (I'm thinking Frost was the one who actually took classes -- ?) thanks, Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:02:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: best poetry book store? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Grolier Bookshop in Boston has a burst of friendly light about it (new ownership, new manager), great stock (good spread/diversity) of titles , and, on the Friday afternoon that I was there, full of customers on the buy. Refreshing. Besides Jeff Maser's shop - which is very good for back list and out of print titles - Pegasus and Moe's and Black Oak - are pretty responsive to new stuff, suggestions, etc. In San Francisco it is still pretty much Green Apple (where George Albon has influence) and City Lights Bookshop. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ cralan kelder wrote: where¹s your favorite poetry bookstore? I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser books, which is two or three doors down from SPD. If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is amazing, cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my brain shut down from so much poetry. I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in Philo. There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd learned the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember the names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine releases, all very beautifully done: "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare "i mean you" by john sinclair "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to admit to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:23:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: CITY LIGHTS POETRY READING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CITY LIGHTS POETRY READING: Garrett Caples, Andrew Joron, and Eileen Tabios Tuesday, October 23, 2007, 7 pm=20 City Lights Bookstore, San Francisco The reading, held on what would have been Philip Lamantia's 80th birthday,=20 also will include a presentation of Garrett Caples reading Philip Lamantia'= s=20 sound poems. READER BIOS: Oakland poet Garrett Caples is the author of four books including The=20 Garrett Caples Reader (Angle Press/Black Square Editions, 1999) and Complic= ations=20 (Meritage Press). Of his work, the poet Jeff Clark said: =E2=80=9CCaples is=20= a =20 polymath. He is, in no particular order, an essayist; with his partner Anna=20= Naruta he=E2=80=99 s the maker of films, documentaries, music videos; he's a connoisseur of=20 hip-hop; he's a love poet, photographer, and collage-maker. His erotica has=20= been=20 anthologized. He's been and likely will remain, as long as he=E2=80=99s here= =E2=80=94or =20 there=E2=80=94a student of radical Oakland politics and culture.=E2=80=9D H= e=E2=80=99s the editor of=20 the forthcoming volume in the City Lights Pocket Poets Series, Tau by Phili= p=20 Lamantia & Journey to the End by John Hoffman. He also writes on hip hop fo= r=20 the San Francisco Bay Guardian. Andrew Joron was born in San Antonio, Texas, in 1955 and grew up in=20 Stuttgart, Germany; Lowell, Massachusetts; and Missoula, Montana. He attend= ed the=20 University of California at Berkeley, where he majored in history and philo= sophy=20 of science. After a decade and a half spent writing science-fiction poetry,= =20 culminating in his volume Science Fiction (Pantagraph Press, 1992), he turn= ed=20 to a more philosophical mode of speculative lyric. This work has been=20 collected in The Removes (Hard Press, 1999) and in Fathom (Black Square, 20= 03). A=20 book of selected prose, The Cry at Zero, has just been published by =20 Counterpath. He is also the translator, from the German, of the Marxist-Ut= opian=20 philosopher Ernst Bloch=E2=80=99s Literary Essays (Stanford University Pres= s, 1998), and=20 the surrealist Richard Anders=E2=80=99s aphorisms and prose poems. Andrew l= ives in=20 Berkeley, where he works as a freelance bibliographer and indexer. A new bo= ok of=20 poems, The Sound Mirror, is forthcoming from Flood Editions. Eileen R. Tabios recently released her 14th print poetry collection, The=20 Light Sang As It Left Your Eyes (Marsh Hawk Press, New York, 2007). Poet=20 Laureate for Dutch Henry Winery in Napa Valley where she is arduously and=20 long-sufferingly researching the poetry of wine, she has crafted a poetic b= ody of work=20 that is unique for melding ekphrasis with transcolonialism. Her poems have=20 been translated into Spanish, Italian, Tagalog, Japanese, Portuguese,=20 Paintings, Video, Drawings, Visual Poetry, Mixed Media Collages, Kali Marti= al Arts,=20 Modern Dance and Sculpture. She edits GALATEA RESURRECTS: A POETRY ENGAGEM= ENT=20 at _http://galatearesurrects.blogspot.com_=20 (http://galatearesurrects.blogspot.com/) . She also spent her first summer=20= in San Francisco, after moving from=20 New York City eight years ago, discussing agriculture and other matters wit= h=20 Philip Lamantia. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:45:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina E Lovin Subject: Re: best poetry book store? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Grolier in Cambridge, MA, just around the corner from the Harvard = Book Store. I think the dog is now long-dead, but I have a photo of her = (Jessica or Pumpkin or Jessica Pumpkin) sitting on the front stoop of the store somewhere in my files. The owner liked me because I always gave the dog = a treat when I came in. Wall-to-wall poetry, but leave your backpack or = book bag at the door! =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of cralan kelder Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 10:30 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: best poetry book store? where=B9s your favorite poetry bookstore? I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser = books, which is two or three doors down from SPD. If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is = amazing, cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my = brain shut down from so much poetry. I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in Philo.=20 There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd = learned the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember = the names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine = releases, all very beautifully done: "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare "i mean you" by john sinclair "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to = admit to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:20:45 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: wedding poem suggestion In-Reply-To: <005e01c814c5$f5ba01a0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would not use Creeley's very great poem "The Wife." Skip Fox wrote: I've heard of Roethke's "I knew a woman" being so used, though I always thought it odd. My son, Benjamin Ezra Fox, had me read the first few stanzas of Browning's "Rabbi Ben Ezra" at his wedding. (Old age never had it so good.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:30:31 -0700 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Buuck Subject: PLS FWD: Jules Boykoff et al in SF 10-26 Comments: To: Stephanie Young , Poetics Cluster , Jasper Bernes , Gopal Balakrishnan , Joshua Clover Comments: cc: Hist Con Dept Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE SUPPRESSION OF DISSENT IN THE UNITED STATES With JULES BOYKOFF, KATYA KOMISARUK, and a representative of the SF8 FRIDAY, OCTOBER 26 at 7:00 PM New College Theater / 777 Valencia Street, San Francisco 5-10 donation to benefit the SF8 Defense (no one turned away) Eight former Black Panthers were arrested earlier this year on charges rela= ted to the 1971 killing of a San Francisco police officer. Similar charges = had been thrown out in 1973, after it was revealed that police used torture= to extract confessions from some of the same men. Unfortunately, such stat= e repression of social movements is far from unusual in the US. Please join= us for an evening of speakers about the history and current reality of gov= ernment repression, as well as counter-strategies activists can use to comb= at it. Jules Boykoff is a political science professor at Pacific University and au= thor of the new book BEYOND BULLETS: THE SUPPRESSION OF DISSENT IN THE UNIT= ED STATES. He will discuss the tactics used by US government agents to unde= rmine the long-term viability of movements for political, social, and econo= mic change. Katya Komisaruk applied to Harvard law school while serving a five-year pri= son sentence for civil disobedience, and has now been a criminal defense an= d civil rights lawyer for over a decade. She is also the author of the indi= spensable BEAT THE HEAT: HOW TO HANDLE ENCOUNTERS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT. She= will offer informed, practical suggestions of what activists can do in the= face of repression. A representative of the SF8 will also be on hand to give an update on their= case and tell us how we can get involved in supporting their defense. FIND OUT MORE ABOUT: The SF8 =E2=80=94 http://www.freethesf8.org BEYOND BULLETS =E2=80=94 http://www.akpress.org/2007/items/beyondbulletsakp= ress=20 BEAT THE HEAT =E2=80=94 http://www.akpress.org/2002/items/beattheheat This event is cosponsored by New College Center for Education and Social Ac= tion. > >For more information call (510) 208-1700 or email info@akpress.org > >AK Press > >674 A 23rd Street > >Oakland, CA 94612 http://www.akpress.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:58:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? In-Reply-To: <004201c814cc$d8fcf700$a0dfc480@english.arizona.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm interested in the answer here. I'm in a counseling program and just read about William James.... Tracey On 10/22/07, Tenney Nathanson wrote: > > while at Harvard, one of them took classes, one of them was just an > admirer > > does anyone remember which was which ? (I'm thinking Frost was the one who > actually took classes -- ?) > > thanks, > > Tenney > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:37:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: best poetry book store? In-Reply-To: <877897.11353.qm@web82614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A moment of silence for the greatest of them all: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/23/nyregion/23gotham.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:18:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? In-Reply-To: <004201c814cc$d8fcf700$a0dfc480@english.arizona.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Stein studied with James at Radcliffe. So did Frost. On 10/22/07, Tenney Nathanson wrote: > while at Harvard, one of them took classes, one of them was just an admirer > > does anyone remember which was which ? (I'm thinking Frost was the one who > actually took classes -- ?) > > thanks, > > Tenney > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:25:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Giannini Subject: Re: best poetry book store? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most poetry? Best prices? Best shop? Stop in AND/OR go online to Longhousepoetry.com--and while you visit, check out Bob and Susan Arnold's magnificent online anthology (soon-to-be-a- for-sale as a CD) , "Origin"--a number of you are in it. Plus, it would be good not only to support the Arnolds, but to support Janine Vega whose "poetry reading" CD is offered exclusively via Longhouse. --David Giannini ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:53 PM Subject: Re: best poetry book store? I went to Jeff Maser's on one of my bay area family/boog trips a few years back on the recommendation of the poet Kent Taylor, one of d.a. levy's best friends back in the day. Maser has recently bought the contents of the late Jim Lowell's Asphodel Bookshop, a vital part of the Cleveland Scene in the sixties and which remained open until Lowell's passing. It was remarkable to go to this little corner in this pretty warehouse bldg with all of these books from Lowell's store. It was my first real chance to actually touch anything that levy had actually produced. and everything around the shop was equally wondrous. the three main things i remember i picked up that afternoon were this tiny book levy made, the author i can't remember, using old maps; an anne waldman broadside that folded down had her picture on the front and name below, and opened up from the bottom had a poem on the inside; a first printing of Anne Waldman and Bernadette Mayer's The Basketball Article, a collaborative essay on basketball originally published in Oui magazine; and a couple of pocket poets to fill holes in my set. The best part, though, was Maser himself. When I called earlier that day for directions from the Bart he told me to just call when i arrived and that he'd pick me up. And then, a while later I'm looking through the old Asphodel stock for an hour or so, and then he comes back to me and asks if I'm hungry. I tell him, yeah, I could use a bite. So he invites me to go to mexican for lunch with him and his girlfriend. Once there he won't let me pay, and the three of us have a swell lunch, talking a whole lot more about music than books. Quoting cralan kelder : > where1s your favorite poetry bookstore? > > > > I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser books, > which is two or three doors down from SPD. > > If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is > amazing, > cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. > I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my > brain > shut down from so much poetry. > > I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the > collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in > Philo. > > There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful > broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd learned > the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. > > Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember the > names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine > releases, > all very beautifully done: > > "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare > "i mean you" by john sinclair > "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer > > Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to > admit > to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's > > heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: a review of Haki Madhubuti's RUN TOWARD FEAR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you have not seen Haki Madhubuti's recent book, Run Toward Fear, I'm thinkin you oughta. Here's a review I wrote for it. Gabe Run Toward Fear: New Poems and A Poet’s Handbook Third World Press: Chicago. 2004 by Haki R. Madhubuti Paperback 68 pages ISBN 0-88378-265-0 Haki R. Madhubuti has written some of the most important poetry of the last fifty years and he is without question one of the preeminent poets writing in America today. This his eleventh book of poetry, Run Toward Fear: New Poems and A Poet’s Handbook, is divided into two main sections: a portion of new poems and, at the back, a handbook of advice for poets young and old. The first line of the first of the forty poems declares, “It is the poets who run toward fear.” And the first of the forty enumerated aphorisms of advice in “The Poet’s Handbook” at the back begins, “Learn to ‘run toward fear.’” It is a sentiment repeated throughout the book: “The highest mandate a poet has (other than writing the strongest poems that she or he is capable of) is to be in the vanguard with others in the pursuit of freedom and justice for all” (67). This book is a commanding and potent statement of the redemptive power and political essence of art and love, and it contains more apothegmatic addresses to and imperative phrases for the reader than probably any other poetry book I’ve read. Its mode is instructive, pedagogic, unabashedly inspirational, palliative, and its tone is by turns avuncular, elegiac, lyric, fiery and plain spoken. Professor Madhubuti has not written a twee, aestheticist, elegant collection, but a work of nurturant pragmatic force. Insofar as the entire book amounts to a manual of instruction about how to triumph, in art, spiritually, democratically, intellectually, and emotionally, residing continually in the local, in the face of systematic oppressive othering, the management of emotions (by judges, employers, police), the pervasive maintenance of economic, gender, racial and ethnic boundaries, regulated discourse, disenfranchisement from wider “whiter” corporate power networks, and the regular vicissitudes of mortal life – insofar as this book does this, and does it triumphantly, it is poetry of the highest kind. It is a poetry enthroned in history. In “Why Shani?,” a poem dedicated “For the Baraka Family” and remarking upon the murder of Amina and Amiri Baraka’s youngest daughter, Shani Isis Makeda Jones Baraka, then 32, Madhubuti writes, “to rise from unanswerable pain requires a history beyond the acquisition of things, demands work on the other side of self and self. you have labored and researched the catalogs of the world & refused to be separated from the poor and poorer. your love is uncorrupted and contagious, grounded in your arts, activism, and the familial. we reciprocate.” (21) This is a poetry tightly rooted in the American pragmatist tradition stretching back through Ralph Ellison, William Carlos Williams, W. E. B. Du Bois, John Dewey, William James, Emerson and beyond. In fact, this book -- insofar as it is, generically speaking, in great part essentially a handbook of conduct -- has roots that could be said to reach all the way back to the great pragmatist Stoic philosopher Epictetus, born a Greek slave, whose Enchiridion, which means manual or handbook, is a collection of pragmatic aphorisms for living one’s life in the face of adversity. In other words, Run Toward Fear is as much a book of poems as it is an ars vivendi. It is for this reason one of the most unusual and satisfying books of poetry I have ever read. These are poems whose pleasures derive from their utility: Twenty-two of the forty poems bear some italic text at the bottom explaining the purpose and occasion of the poem, e.g., “Remembering the children of Kosovo,” or “For the teachers of poetry,” or “For Margaret Walker Alexander, 1915-1998.” This is a poetics embedded in the local in a way fundamentally contrary to aestheticism and its pretensions toward universal cultural value. In his autobiography William Carlos Williams quotes John Dewey: “The local is the only universal, upon that all art builds.” If the very existence of aestheticism is founded upon the dismissal of history and the local, then this book is the farthest thing from aestheticist as you can get. The school of quietude, so prevalent in American poetry since the rise of the New Criticism, has insisted that poetry (and poetry especially of all the genres) has no, and can have no, active political force in the world. Madhubuti works then in the radical political tradition of all great writers, not just great Black writers, when he declares, “The best poets find peace in themselves and work incessantly to find it in others, their surroundings, and on more than one occasion write poems about the necessity and possibility of a world at peace.” (61) Note that he does not say the best poets satisfy aesthetic conventions: he says simply they find peace. A better standard for great writing cannot be found. This book is then about finding peace through history, family, connection, and the genius that rises from them and must learn to run toward fear if it is to survive: the relations among real people are named on page after page, as in his tribute, “Our Daughter on Loan,” an elegy for Kevani Zelpa Moyo, the daughter of Kimya and Kofi Moyo, dead at age 17: […] your history was still in discovery as grandmothers, big mommas and babas declared, “you were on loan to us,” not a borrowed book or pawn shop watch. your visit among us is still mystery and melody, “tweety” birds with rhythm in their eyes. your mother is a southern river, your father a strong stone with baggage, your family is Black stories, deep crops, gathering winds, Black hurricanes in waiting. you were washed in love and possibilities, sun bathed in smiles, tunes and cultural signatures. why you leave us so soon? For Kevani Zelpah Moyo (1982-1999) (30) I believe Haki Madhubuti would concur with Lynn Worsham, who, in her essay “Going Postal: Pedagogic Violence and the Schooling of Emotion,” declares “that if our commitment is to real individual and social change…then the work of decolonization must occur at the affective level, not only to reconstitute the emotional life of the individual but also, and more importantly, to reconstruct the feeling or mood that characterizes an age. To be sure, our most urgent political and pedagogical task remains the fundamental reeducation of emotion.” I believe it is this very project that has tasked Madhubuti since his first book as Don L. Lee, Don’t Cry, Scream. And he has chosen with this book to highlight a lesson that is relevant now and will remain so for as long as civility, love, and happiness are threatened by the violence of ignorant men and unjust structures: that unless those who make art, and those whom art makes, first realize the extent of their fear, and then act upon it and see it for what it is -- a tool wielded against us by “the bomb users, greed promoters, career politicians, corporate plastic makers, armies of money-makers, pleasure-over-principle advocates, proponents of artificial food” (67) -- we cannot be free. And poets are especially tasked, he says, for, “The determined force of any age is the poem, old as ideas and as lifegiving as active lovers. A part of any answer is in the rhythm of the people; their heartbeat comes urgently in two universal forms, music and poetry. for the reader for the quiet seeker for the many willing to sacrifice one syllable mumblings and easy conclusions poetry can be the gigantic river that allows one to recognize in the circle of fire the center of life.” (56) -- _______________________________________________________ RHODE ISLAND NOTEBOOK (Dalkey Archive Press, 2007) http://books.dalkeyarchive.com/book/each_book/397 ------------------------------------------------------- A DEFENSE OF POETRY (Pitt Poetry Series, 2002) http://www.upress.pitt.edu/BookDetails.aspx?bookId=35419 ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:35:51 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joshua moses Subject: Alice Notley's "In the Pines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm wondering what folks thinkg about Joel Brouwer's NYT's review of Alice Notley's most recent book, "In the Pines." To me his take is a bit off. He writes: "Notley’s ambition is different; she seeks to establish or continue no tradition except one that literally can’t exist — the celebration of the singular thought sung at a particular instant in a unique voice — and it seems she’s getting closer to it all the time." The poem, as I read it, points to something quite different: it is, afterall, a self-proclaimed folk process, and rather than emphasizing how a "singular voice in a particular instant" it seems to be pointing to the haunting felt and heard presence of multitudes of voices--the poet as shaman. He also makes an odd distinction between the "nervous surfaces" of the poem and the voice beneath, as if these were distinct. Finally, the strength of the poem, he writes, is its charm. This is a poem that deals with death, disease, mental illness and has at times a deeply menacing, and beautiful, quality. Charm? Would be curious what other people think. And, Joel, if you are out there, would be great to hear from you. Regards, Joshua Moses _________________________________________________________________ More photos; more messages; more storage—get 5GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:38:25 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joshua moses Subject: Alice Notley's "In the Pines" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm wondering what folks thinkg about Joel Brouwer's NYT's review of Alice Notley's most recent book, "In the Pines." To me his take is a bit off. He writes: "Notley’s ambition is different; she seeks to establish or continue no tradition except one that literally can’t exist — the celebration of the singular thought sung at a particular instant in a unique voice — and it seems she’s getting closer to it all the time." The poem, as I read it, points to something quite different: it is, afterall, a self-proclaimed folk process, and rather than emphasizing how a "singular voice in a particular instant" it seems to be pointing to the haunting felt and heard presence of multitudes of voices--the poet as shaman. He also makes an odd distinction between the "nervous surfaces" of the poem and the voice beneath, as if these were distinct. Finally, the strength of the poem, he writes, is its charm. This is a poem that deals with death, disease, mental illness and has at times has a deeply menacing, beautiful quality. Charm? Would be curious what other people think. And, Joel, if you are out there, would be great to hear from you. Regards, Joshua Moses _________________________________________________________________ More photos; more messages; more storage—get 5GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:44:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the cleansing of acts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the cleansing of acts promise to clean up her act, police told we have to get tough with abusive cops planned to use judson after her divorce from tacoma police chief dav- id brame. this a good look for her. it might be bout a damn promise ring but at least she's not singing about grinding up on nobody or throwin her cooch in nobody's waste sites and vows to stay sober and away from the jetset crowd of no-gooders in keeping with her promise to clean up her act and stay that way she vows to stay sober and away from the jetset crowd of no-gooders in keeping with her promise to clean up her act and stay that way. clean up her act this time. im not counting on it, but we can always hope. shes still got time to turn it around. to clean up her act, as hell- fire nips at her heels: i would burn the soles of my feet/burn the palms of both my hands/if i could learn promise to clean up her act. true if they clean up their act, i will vanish. i have not violated the law. we cannot promise that readers will not occasionally find he has had multiple chances to clean up his act. i no more believe the promises this time than i do the notion that i will sprout a purple tail and wings. hey! found out today, scared you away. because he was sick of feeling tired and ... the road trip with no prede- termined destination create something beautiful get more exercise, my hair grew out ate more - true too dirrty to clean up my act. ahem ahem im feat- ured as an it girl in this months dirrty glam magazine muses issue...my cover page appearance is true true, i was making money from my writing, in that sense, i'm a pro. + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:10:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <004201c814cc$d8fcf700$a0dfc480@english.arizona.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gertrude Stein studied with William James, I know, while her brother was registered at Harvard. From: Tenney Nathanson Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:59:02 -0700 To: Subject: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? while at Harvard, one of them took classes, one of them was just an admirer does anyone remember which was which ? (I'm thinking Frost was the one who actually took classes -- ?) thanks, Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:13:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: best poetry book store? Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <877897.11353.qm@web82614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable In San Francisco: Bird and Beckett Books and Records. Just moved from Diamond to Chenery St., has taken up residence in the old library. Great books, jazz on vinyl records, readings and or music nearly every night. Check it out. Diane di Prima From: Stephen Vincent Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:02:13 -0700 To: Subject: Re: best poetry book store? The Grolier Bookshop in Boston has a burst of friendly light about it (new ownership, new manager), great stock (good spread/diversity) of titles , and, on the Friday afternoon that I was there, full of customers on the buy= . =20 Refreshing.=20 =20 Besides Jeff Maser's shop - which is very good for back list and out of print titles - Pegasus and Moe's and Black Oak - are pretty responsive to new stuff, suggestions, etc. =20 In San Francisco it is still pretty much Green Apple (where George Albon has influence) and City Lights Bookshop. =20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =20 cralan kelder wrote: where=B9s your favorite poetry bookstore? I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser books, which is two or three doors down from SPD. If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is amazing, cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my brai= n shut down from so much poetry. I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in Philo.=20 There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd learned the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember the names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine releases= , all very beautifully done: "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare "i mean you" by john sinclair "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to admit to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:33:34 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: a review of Haki Madhubuti's RUN TOWARD FEAR In-Reply-To: <471D261E.9080600@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sounds very interesting, I will look for it. But I love above all those who never find peace. Gabriel Gudding wrote: If you have not seen Haki Madhubuti's recent book, Run Toward Fear, I'm thinkin you oughta. Here's a review I wrote for it. Gabe Run Toward Fear: New Poems and A Poet’s Handbook Third World Press: Chicago. 2004 by Haki R. Madhubuti Paperback 68 pages ISBN 0-88378-265-0 Haki R. Madhubuti has written some of the most important poetry of the last fifty years and he is without question one of the preeminent poets writing in America today. This his eleventh book of poetry, Run Toward Fear: New Poems and A Poet’s Handbook, is divided into two main sections: a portion of new poems and, at the back, a handbook of advice for poets young and old. The first line of the first of the forty poems declares, “It is the poets who run toward fear.” And the first of the forty enumerated aphorisms of advice in “The Poet’s Handbook” at the back begins, “Learn to ‘run toward fear.’” It is a sentiment repeated throughout the book: “The highest mandate a poet has (other than writing the strongest poems that she or he is capable of) is to be in the vanguard with others in the pursuit of freedom and justice for all” (67). This book is a commanding and potent statement of the redemptive power and political essence of art and love, and it contains more apothegmatic addresses to and imperative phrases for the reader than probably any other poetry book I’ve read. Its mode is instructive, pedagogic, unabashedly inspirational, palliative, and its tone is by turns avuncular, elegiac, lyric, fiery and plain spoken. Professor Madhubuti has not written a twee, aestheticist, elegant collection, but a work of nurturant pragmatic force. Insofar as the entire book amounts to a manual of instruction about how to triumph, in art, spiritually, democratically, intellectually, and emotionally, residing continually in the local, in the face of systematic oppressive othering, the management of emotions (by judges, employers, police), the pervasive maintenance of economic, gender, racial and ethnic boundaries, regulated discourse, disenfranchisement from wider “whiter” corporate power networks, and the regular vicissitudes of mortal life – insofar as this book does this, and does it triumphantly, it is poetry of the highest kind. It is a poetry enthroned in history. In “Why Shani?,” a poem dedicated “For the Baraka Family” and remarking upon the murder of Amina and Amiri Baraka’s youngest daughter, Shani Isis Makeda Jones Baraka, then 32, Madhubuti writes, “to rise from unanswerable pain requires a history beyond the acquisition of things, demands work on the other side of self and self. you have labored and researched the catalogs of the world & refused to be separated from the poor and poorer. your love is uncorrupted and contagious, grounded in your arts, activism, and the familial. we reciprocate.” (21) This is a poetry tightly rooted in the American pragmatist tradition stretching back through Ralph Ellison, William Carlos Williams, W. E. B. Du Bois, John Dewey, William James, Emerson and beyond. In fact, this book -- insofar as it is, generically speaking, in great part essentially a handbook of conduct -- has roots that could be said to reach all the way back to the great pragmatist Stoic philosopher Epictetus, born a Greek slave, whose Enchiridion, which means manual or handbook, is a collection of pragmatic aphorisms for living one’s life in the face of adversity. In other words, Run Toward Fear is as much a book of poems as it is an ars vivendi. It is for this reason one of the most unusual and satisfying books of poetry I have ever read. These are poems whose pleasures derive from their utility: Twenty-two of the forty poems bear some italic text at the bottom explaining the purpose and occasion of the poem, e.g., “Remembering the children of Kosovo,” or “For the teachers of poetry,” or “For Margaret Walker Alexander, 1915-1998.” This is a poetics embedded in the local in a way fundamentally contrary to aestheticism and its pretensions toward universal cultural value. In his autobiography William Carlos Williams quotes John Dewey: “The local is the only universal, upon that all art builds.” If the very existence of aestheticism is founded upon the dismissal of history and the local, then this book is the farthest thing from aestheticist as you can get. The school of quietude, so prevalent in American poetry since the rise of the New Criticism, has insisted that poetry (and poetry especially of all the genres) has no, and can have no, active political force in the world. Madhubuti works then in the radical political tradition of all great writers, not just great Black writers, when he declares, “The best poets find peace in themselves and work incessantly to find it in others, their surroundings, and on more than one occasion write poems about the necessity and possibility of a world at peace.” (61) Note that he does not say the best poets satisfy aesthetic conventions: he says simply they find peace. A better standard for great writing cannot be found. This book is then about finding peace through history, family, connection, and the genius that rises from them and must learn to run toward fear if it is to survive: the relations among real people are named on page after page, as in his tribute, “Our Daughter on Loan,” an elegy for Kevani Zelpa Moyo, the daughter of Kimya and Kofi Moyo, dead at age 17: […] your history was still in discovery as grandmothers, big mommas and babas declared, “you were on loan to us,” not a borrowed book or pawn shop watch. your visit among us is still mystery and melody, “tweety” birds with rhythm in their eyes. your mother is a southern river, your father a strong stone with baggage, your family is Black stories, deep crops, gathering winds, Black hurricanes in waiting. you were washed in love and possibilities, sun bathed in smiles, tunes and cultural signatures. why you leave us so soon? For Kevani Zelpah Moyo (1982-1999) (30) I believe Haki Madhubuti would concur with Lynn Worsham, who, in her essay “Going Postal: Pedagogic Violence and the Schooling of Emotion,” declares “that if our commitment is to real individual and social change…then the work of decolonization must occur at the affective level, not only to reconstitute the emotional life of the individual but also, and more importantly, to reconstruct the feeling or mood that characterizes an age. To be sure, our most urgent political and pedagogical task remains the fundamental reeducation of emotion.” I believe it is this very project that has tasked Madhubuti since his first book as Don L. Lee, Don’t Cry, Scream. And he has chosen with this book to highlight a lesson that is relevant now and will remain so for as long as civility, love, and happiness are threatened by the violence of ignorant men and unjust structures: that unless those who make art, and those whom art makes, first realize the extent of their fear, and then act upon it and see it for what it is -- a tool wielded against us by “the bomb users, greed promoters, career politicians, corporate plastic makers, armies of money-makers, pleasure-over-principle advocates, proponents of artificial food” (67) -- we cannot be free. And poets are especially tasked, he says, for, “The determined force of any age is the poem, old as ideas and as lifegiving as active lovers. A part of any answer is in the rhythm of the people; their heartbeat comes urgently in two universal forms, music and poetry. for the reader for the quiet seeker for the many willing to sacrifice one syllable mumblings and easy conclusions poetry can be the gigantic river that allows one to recognize in the circle of fire the center of life.” (56) -- _______________________________________________________ RHODE ISLAND NOTEBOOK (Dalkey Archive Press, 2007) http://books.dalkeyarchive.com/book/each_book/397 ------------------------------------------------------- A DEFENSE OF POETRY (Pitt Poetry Series, 2002) http://www.upress.pitt.edu/BookDetails.aspx?bookId=35419 ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:17:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Schwabsky/Fieled, "Waxing Hot" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The latest installment of the "Waxing Hot" poetics dialogue series is up on PFS Post. The participants this time are poet/critic Barry Schwabsky and editor Adam Fieled: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com Check it out, y'all... Adam Fieled's books: "Opera Bufa": http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210 "Beams": http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-af.pdf __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: juliana spahr Subject: Jules Boykoff at New College, Friday October 26th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Jules Boykoff at New College, Friday October 26th Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:45:15 -0700 *THE SUPPRESSION OF DISSENT IN THE UNITED STATES* With JULES BOYKOFF, KATYA KOMISARUK, and a representative of the SF8 Friday Oct. 26th 07:00 PM - 09:00 PM New College Theater, 777 Valencia Street $5-10 donation to benefit the SF8 Defense (no one turned away) Eight former Black Panthers were arrested earlier this year on charges related to the 1971 killing of a San Francisco police officer. Similar charges had been thrown out in 1973, after it was revealed that police used torture to extract confessions from some of the same men. Unfortunately, such state repression of social movements is far from unusual in the US. Please join us for an evening of speakers about the history and current reality of government repression, as well as counter-strategies activists can use to combat it. Jules Boykoff is a poet and political science professor at Pacific University and author of the new book BEYOND BULLETS: THE SUPPRESSION OF DISSENT IN THE UNITED STATES. He will discuss the tactics used by US government agents to undermine the long-term viability of movements for political, social, and economic change. Katya Komisaruk applied to Harvard law school while serving a five-year prison sentence for civil disobedience, and has been a criminal defense and civil rights lawyer for over a decade. She is also the author of the indispensable BEAT THE HEAT: HOW TO HANDLE ENCOUNTERS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT. She will offer informed, practical suggestions of what activists can do in the face of repression. A representative of the SF8 will also be on hand to give an update on their case and tell us how we can get involved in supporting their defense. FIND OUT MORE ABOUT: The SF8 -- http://www.freethesf8.org BEYOND BULLETS -- http://www.akpress.org/2007/items/beyondbulletsakpress BEAT THE HEAT -- http://www.akpress.org/2002/items/beattheheat This event is brought to you by AK Press and cosponsored by New College Center for Education and Social Action. October 26, 2007 07:00 PM - 09:00 PM New College Theater 777 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 For more info call 510-208-1700 or email info@akpress.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:57:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: ROB FITTERMAN and MEL NICHOLS @ SEGUE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ROB FITTERMAN and MEL NICHOLS Saturday October 27, 4:00-6:00 p.m. Segue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, one block above Houston $6 goes to support the readers =20 Sandwiched between Shell and Mobil gas stations, Robert Fitterman grew up i= n a pre-sprawl St. Louis suburb named Creve Coeur (broken heart). He is the= author of nine books of poetry, including Metropolis 1-15 (Sun & Moon), Me= tropolis 16-29 (Coach House Books) and, most recently, War, the musical (Su= bpress, 2006) with Dirk Rowntree. =20 Mel Nichols lives in Washington, DC, and teaches at George Mason University= . Her chapbooks are Day Poems (Edge Books 2005) and The Beginning of Beauty= , Part 1: hottest new ringtones, mnichol6 (Edge 2007), based on the daily b= log project at thebeginningofbeauty.blogspot.com. =20 _________________________________________________________________ Boo!=A0Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare= ! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=3Dwl_hotma= ilnews= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:46:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Looking for Cole Swanson In-Reply-To: <471D3F6A.50106@mills.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have Cole Swanson's email id ? Please backchannel. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:55:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a beautiful book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He no longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it "thinking." Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue with the world. As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & thinkers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:20:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit She studied with James at Johns Hopkins, and there is a funny little story about her deciding not to take an exam he once gave. He encouraged her greatly (and gave her an A the day she wrote the note claiming she didn't feel like taking a test). She left the medical program about a semester before graduation. Diane DiPrima wrote: Gertrude Stein studied with William James, I know, while her brother was registered at Harvard. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:23:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: This Friday in Brooklyn In-Reply-To: <4717DB3D.4080309@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MiPOesias presents ~~ CYNTHIA SAILERS, DANA WARD and PETER DAVIS~~ Friday, October 26th @ 7 P.M. ~~ CYNTHIA SAILERS is currently writing a dissertation on Narcissism and Perversion in Pathological Group Organization. She is a board member of Small Press Traffic, and previously co-curated New Yipes Reading Series (formerly New Brutalism). DANA WARD is the author of New Couriers (Dusie 2006), I Didn't Build This Machine (Boog Literature, 2004) & The Imaginary Lives of My Neighbors (Duration, 2003). Recent poems have appeared in Mirage #4/Periodical, string of small machines, Small Town, & other places. He lives in Cincinnati & edits Cy Press. PETER DAVIS' book of poems is Hitler's Mustache. He edited Poet's Bookshelf: Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art. His poems have appeared in journals like MiPOesias, Octopus, Court Green, Rattle, and McSweeney's. His music project, Shot Hand, is available through Collectible Escalators. He lives in Muncie , Indiana with his wife, son, and daughter and teaches at Ball State University . ~~~~~~~ STAIN BAR 766 Grand Street Brooklyn , NY 11211 (L train to Grand Street Stop, walk 1 block west) 718/387-7840 http://www.stainbar.com/ ~~~~~~~~ Hope you'll stop by! Amy King Editor http://www.mipoesias.com **please forward** **apologies for cross-posting** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:05:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger Comments: To: steve russell In-Reply-To: 315831.95827.qm@web52407.mail.re2.yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 yes, that is a beautiful book and, well . . . he also suppressed the dedication to Husserl of his most famous book when that became inconvenient during the Nazi era -- and the infamous rector's address is infamous for good reason -- all of which simply means that we should keep reading him for all that we can learn -- including the humbling lessons of his mast hateful moments -- On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 09:55 AM, steve russell wrote: > Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a >beautiful book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the >turning." He no longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it >"thinking." Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's >dialogue with the world. > > As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious of >modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for refusing to >censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his lover at one >time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent of racial >theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by political >bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & >thinkers. > > __________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:09:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? In-Reply-To: <254236.83709.qm@web83313.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, James's entire academic career was spent at Harvard. Stein attended Radcliff 1893-97(according to Wikipedia), and it was there that she encountered James, though it is true that she did subsequently attend Johns Hopkins Medical School, which she left without a degree. I only mention this in order to avoid thinking about Heidegger, of course. amy king wrote: She studied with James at Johns Hopkins, and there is a funny little story about her deciding not to take an exam he once gave. He encouraged her greatly (and gave her an A the day she wrote the note claiming she didn't feel like taking a test). She left the medical program about a semester before graduation. Diane DiPrima wrote: Gertrude Stein studied with William James, I know, while her brother was registered at Harvard. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:34:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: best poetry book store? In-Reply-To: <001401c814fa$767f68a0$6bcc9a04@DAVID> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A place i keep finding a great many excellent books in their first editions for fity cent paper and a dollar hardback is the Book Seller Cafe at the Public Library in Milwaukee. Books from the 60's and 70's by bp Nichol, LeRoi Jones, Jackson MacLow, John Wieners, Jack Micheline, R. Waldrop, Susan Howe, Charles Olson, Theodore Enslin, Robert Creeley, etc etc. But best of all is Woodland Pattern Book Center. Besides being one of the best poetry bookstores there is, it also is one of the leading places for readings, talks, workshops, as well as art, book art, music and experimental film screenings-- and has large sections of American Indian literature, history, poetry, children's books, Middle eastern, Latin American Asian/Asian American wrting, fiction, art books, film, visual poetry--chaps and broadsides, journals-- My favorites are always going to be used places, yard sales and finding books on the street being thrown out--the used found books are unexpected surprises and editions often one never knew of--often older ones much better made than current editions--or recent books at a fraction the price--in a used store, Salvation Army, dumpster, roadside box, yard sales, the book Seller cafe, the excitement of the unknown that one finds and finds one--the completely unexpected book that leaps out of the past or another language--an obscure edition--talismanic-- already with a life of its own-- Sometimes among new books, it's very exciting, then very confining. All the "must reads," "instants classics," "language revelations," best poetry book of the year," and "good for you" "buy this book" patter of the blurbographers weighing in with Great Authority. Suddenly, as a reader, you feel like you're being not so much instructed as constructed--and it's time to slip back out to walk along and find a promising looking junk heap. Otherwise you're not yourself anymore, but someone else's idea of who and what you should be, who and what you should read, and what crowd you should join in with. Sounds like it might be kind of a trap, doesn't it?-- The first place i bought poetry books probably forever set me in this direction. It was a book stall at the huge Saturday outdoor market on the Boulevard des Lices in Arles, France. A squat Provencal gentleman in a blue smock ran it. He always wore a battered old cap and had either a Gauloise or a long grass blade dangling in a corner of his mouth and glass of country wine close to hand. He also worked as a seasonal farmhand and all this time outdoors had given him a skin the color and texture of of a rutted ochre clay country road. He noticed I was buying poetry books--very cheap older popular editions of Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Nerval, Apollinaire, Reverdy etc-- and his cinema tomes, so each week would turn up with some volumes he'd unearthed he hoped I might find interesting. He'd turn up some amazing things. It turned out M. Bosco (also the name of a well known writer, Henri Bosco, much quoted by Bachelard) didn't even like to read at all, but had more or less come into the business by default. It had belonged to a childhood friend of his whom he used to help out on the big market days when he didn't have farm work in hand. Over time, the friend taught him the rudimentary aspects of the buiness and introduced him to many of his sources of texts, scattered around an eccentrically shaped area of Provence. One day, at the Bouldevard des Lices, his friend told him he was going to a cafe to meet a couple pals and play some cards for a while. He promised to be back by late afternoon. He never returned and M. Bosco never was able to find a trace of him and neither were the local police. Apparently it was M. Bosco's fate to become a book stall owner, traveling from town to town and dealing in a merchandise he had no real interest in. But all things happen for a reason, M. Bosco said. If i hadn't had this stall at the markets, I wouldn't have met my wife. She owns a house, a nice one, and some good property, good land, and so I have a real home. I used to fear I might always be an itinerant laborer with no fixed place of residence. Now I know just where i'll sleep every night. My friend did me a very good turn and wherever he is I hope he knows how thankful I am to him. And I'm very thankful to him for you to be here with these good books for me, too, says I. So we had a good smoke on that. When the book seller has the books as it were fall into his life, it inspires one to be open to all the opportunities in which books can fall into one's own life--and many other things--("I do not seek, I find"--Picasso) On 10/22/07, David Giannini wrote: > > Most poetry? Best prices? Best shop? Stop in AND/OR go online to > Longhousepoetry.com--and while you visit, check out Bob and Susan Arnold's > magnificent online anthology (soon-to-be-a- for-sale as a CD) , > "Origin"--a > number of you > are in it. Plus, it would be good not only to support the Arnolds, but to > support > Janine Vega whose "poetry reading" CD is offered exclusively via > Longhouse. > --David Giannini > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" > To: < POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:53 PM > Subject: Re: best poetry book store? > > > I went to Jeff Maser's on one of my bay area family/boog trips a few > years back on the recommendation of the poet Kent Taylor, one of d.a. > levy's best friends back in the day. Maser has recently bought the > contents of the late Jim Lowell's Asphodel Bookshop, a vital part of > the Cleveland Scene in the sixties and which remained open until > Lowell's passing. > > It was remarkable to go to this little corner in this pretty warehouse > bldg with all of these books from Lowell's store. It was my first real > chance to actually touch anything that levy had actually produced. > > and everything around the shop was equally wondrous. the three main > things i remember i picked up that afternoon were this tiny book levy > made, the author i can't remember, using old maps; an anne waldman > broadside that folded down had her picture on the front and name > below, and opened up from the bottom had a poem on the inside; a first > printing of Anne Waldman and Bernadette Mayer's The Basketball > Article, a collaborative essay on basketball originally published in > Oui magazine; and a couple of pocket poets to fill holes in my set. > > The best part, though, was Maser himself. When I called earlier that > day for directions from the Bart he told me to just call when i > arrived and that he'd pick me up. And then, a while later I'm looking > through the old Asphodel stock for an hour or so, and then he comes > back to me and asks if I'm hungry. I tell him, yeah, I could use a > bite. So he invites me to go to mexican for lunch with him and his > girlfriend. Once there he won't let me pay, and the three of us have a > swell lunch, talking a whole lot more about music than books. > > > Quoting cralan kelder : > > > where1s your favorite poetry bookstore? > > > > > > > > I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser > books, > > which is two or three doors down from SPD. > > > > If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is > > amazing, > > cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. > > I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my > > brain > > shut down from so much poetry. > > > > I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the > > collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in > > Philo. > > > > There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful > > broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd > learned > > the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. > > > > Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember > the > > names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine > > releases, > > all very beautifully done: > > > > "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare > > "i mean you" by john sinclair > > "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer > > > > Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to > > admit > > to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's > > > > heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:47:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <315831.95827.qm@web52407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I read a book by Heidegger on poetry, although I no longer remember what it was titled. I found it impenetrable and threw the book out. Sorry, maybe it was a bad translation. Regards, Tom Savage steve russell wrote: Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a beautiful book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He no longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it "thinking." Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue with the world. As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & thinkers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Nicholson Subject: Re: Picabia In-Reply-To: <649869.53044.qm@web86005.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Barry, Great review. I was especially glad to see connections made between Picabia's work and contemporary poetry. There are a few Dada poets--particularly Tzara and Picabia--who, in my opinion, have been overlooked in America due to the popular image of Dada but whose work was highly developed and complex, using techniques that make them look almost like contemporaries at times. It amazes me that the techniques used by Picabia and Tzara are applauded when used by poets like John Ashbery, David Shapiro, John Yau, etc. but are completely ignored when they appear in Picabia and Tzara's work. This isn't to say that I don't want to see Ashbery, Shapiro, or Yau applauded--on the contrary, I think their discovery, re-invention, and interpretation of collage, "abstraction," and colorful intensity is often breathtaking--but I would like it if American readers would stop being blinded by the Dada manifestos and actually pay attention to a couple of very powerful poets. On 10/19/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Members of this list may be interested in my piece on the poetry of Francis Picabia, in the current issue of The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:49:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: best poetry book store? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the reminder, Diane. To think my daughter, Pearl (now 27) was born at home on 153 Chenery (too)! (Just a few doors up from Fairmont School). Glad B & B has a bigger foothold. Be well, Stephen Diane DiPrima wrote: In San Francisco: Bird and Beckett Books and Records. Just moved from Diamond to Chenery St., has taken up residence in the old library. Great books, jazz on vinyl records, readings and or music nearly every night. Check it out. Diane di Prima From: Stephen Vincent Reply-To: "UB Poetics discussion group " Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:02:13 -0700 To: Subject: Re: best poetry book store? The Grolier Bookshop in Boston has a burst of friendly light about it (new ownership, new manager), great stock (good spread/diversity) of titles , and, on the Friday afternoon that I was there, full of customers on the buy. Refreshing. Besides Jeff Maser's shop - which is very good for back list and out of print titles - Pegasus and Moe's and Black Oak - are pretty responsive to new stuff, suggestions, etc. In San Francisco it is still pretty much Green Apple (where George Albon has influence) and City Lights Bookshop. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ cralan kelder wrote: where¹s your favorite poetry bookstore? I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser books, which is two or three doors down from SPD. If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is amazing, cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my brain shut down from so much poetry. I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in Philo. There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd learned the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember the names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine releases, all very beautifully done: "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare "i mean you" by john sinclair "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to admit to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Wanda Phipps & Joel Schlemowitz Reading and Film Screening at ISSUE Project Room MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline marc zegans + edwin torres wanda phipps + joel schlemowitz at ISSUE Project Room 232 Third Street - Brooklyn, NY Third Floor www.issueprojectroom.org 8PM Saturday, October 27, 2007 $10.00 Telephone 718-330-0313 Inquires/Mailing List info@issueprojectroom.org Marc Zegans is a poet, playwright and author. His current work explores waking dreams and the experience of human fragility in the post-industrial landscape. His spoken word Album Night Work was released by Philistine Records in August 2007. In February 2007 Marc premiered a performance piece entitled Women, Waking, Danger: An Experiment in Combination with multi-media artist Aki Onda. He also recently completed the manuscript for Pillow Talk: A Collection of Erotic Haiku to be released by G-Spot press. Presently, Marc is completing a book of poems entitled Danger and Abandon. In 2005 he began the "Question Book Project" which circulates hand-made books throughout the world inviting individuals to add an ever-growing web of questions to their pages. Noted graphic artist and foam-board engineer, Eric Edelman is developing nesting structures for the question books, so that they may grow in physical depth and complexity as they expand in content. Marc's poetry appeared in broadside as part of "The Art of Self and Recovery" a 2007 exhibition in Great Barrington Massachusetts sponsored by the Elizabeth Freeman Center. His play Mum and Shah was the Boston Globe "Pick of the Week." Edwin Torres, from New York City, is a bilingualist rooted in the languages of both sight and sound. His performances intermingle the textures of poetry, vocal and physical improvisation and visual theater. His books include "The PoPedology Of An Ambient Language" (Atelos books), "In The Function Of External Circumstances" (Spuyten Duyvil Press) and "The All-Union Day Of The Shock Worker" (Roof Books). His debut CD "Holy Kid" (Kill Rock Stars) was included in The Whitney Museum Of American Art's exhibition, The Last American Century. He has taught at Naropa University's Summer Writing program, Bard College, and St. Marks Poetry Project. He is currently co-editor of the poetry DVD journal Rattapallax. wanda phipps + joel schlemowitz Wanda Phipps is a writer/performer living in Brooklyn, NY, the author of Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems (Soft Skull Press), Your Last Illusion or Break Up Sonnet (Situations), Lunch Poems (Boog Literature), the Faux Press issued e-chapbook After the Mishap and CD-Rom Zither Mood. Her poetry has been published over 100 times in a variety of publications, including the anthologies Verses that Hurt: Pleasure and Pain From the Poemfone Poets (St. Martin's Press) and The Boog Reader (Boog Lit). She has received awards from the New York Foundation for the Arts, the Meet the Composer/International Creative Collaborations Program, Agni Journal, the National Theater Translation Fund, and the New York State Council on the Arts. As a founding member of Yara Arts Group she has collaborated on numerous theatrical productions presented in Ukraine, Kyrgyzstan and Siberia, as well as in New York City at La MaMa, E.T.C. She's also curated several reading and performance series at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church as well as other NYC venues and written about the arts for Time Out New York, Paper Magazine, and About.com. For more info. check out her website: www.mindhoney.com. JOEL SCHLEMOWITZ has made over forty short experimental films, and numerous film installation pieces. He has received grants from the Jerome Foundation and New York State Council on the Arts. His work has been shown at the Whitney Museum of American Art, MoMA, Anthology Film Archives, Millennium Film Workshop, Berks Filmmakers, and at various festivals including the London Film Festival, the Sydney Film Festival, the Chicago International Film Festival, the Ann Arbor Film Festival, the Denver Film Festival, the New York Underground Film Festival, and elsewhere. His short film Reverie was broadcast on the Sundance Channel in the "Underground Shorts" series. Another short work, Moving Images - the Film-Makers' Cooperative relocates, received Honorable Mentions from the Thaw02 Film & Video Festival and NY Short Film Expo, and was awarded a silver plaque from the Chicago International Film Festival. He has received Best Short Documentary awards at the Chicago Underground Film Festival in 2004 and 2005. He teaches filmmaking at the New School, and is President of ACT-UAW, Local 7902, union of adjunct and part-time faculty at New School and NYU. DIRECTIONS MASS TRANSIT F and G trains to CARROLL ST-SMITH ST stop Walk East down Third St over Gowanus Canal to Third Av = 5 min walk -- Wanda Phipps Check out my websites MIND HONEY: http://www.mindhoney.com as well as http://www.myspace.com/wandaphippsband and my latest book of poetry Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems available at: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-31-X and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=rm_item ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:59:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: best poetry book store? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you're in Berkeley, don't miss Pegasus Books -- the downtown branch = on Shattuck, where Clay Banes (of Eyeball Hatred blog fame) does the poetry buying. He keeps the store well-stocked with an excellent selection of = hot new poetry titles - stuff you wouldn't have found at Cody's & you won't = find at Moe's. There are often some treasures buried in the used section, = too -- which are priced much lower than they would be at Jeff Maser's or at Serendipity... Clay also runs an excellent reading series there -- check out his blog = for the schedule (I think it's claytonbanes.blogspot.com ) -adam -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of cralan kelder Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 10:30 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: best poetry book store? where=B9s your favorite poetry bookstore? I visited berkeley this month and got a chance to visit Jeff Maser = books, which is two or three doors down from SPD. If you get a chance, this is highly recommended! The collection is = amazing, cases and cases of small press, a warehouse full. I was able to find works by all the authors I could think of, until my = brain shut down from so much poetry. I spoke with Jeff Maser, and it turned out that I'd seen much of the collection before, it used to belong to Richard Aaron / amhere books, in Philo.=20 There's also a press there, in the warehouse, and they make beautiful broadsides. The press is called palOmine press. Jeff told me he'd = learned the craft at Occasional Works Press in Menlo Park. Like a kid in a candy-store, I was unable to think, I couldnt remember = the names of book I was after, so I ended up picking up three palOmine = releases, all very beautifully done: "Pilgrim" by Brian Teare "i mean you" by john sinclair "Back Until Then" by James DenBoer Yes, you can always go to Serendipity in berkeley, but here i have to = admit to being tight-fisted, the prices are pleasing at Maser's heres the website http://www.detritus.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:13:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Truitt Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <315831.95827.qm@web52407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brother, You need to look more closely under the Heidegger's hood - seductive writing - compelling - but he was a nazi as evidenced in his writing of '30s including in his turn re. what happened with CONTRIBUTION TO PHILOSOPHY, which while thoroughly deep is laced with anti-semitisms. He's a mixed bag - take from it what you can that's useful. Best as ever, Sam --- steve russell wrote: > Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a beautiful > book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He no > longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it "thinking." > Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue with > the world. > > As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious > of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for > refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, > his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way > a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his > being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among major > 20th century artist & thinkers. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _____________________________________________________________ Sam Truitt's "Days" (improvisational AV strip each day of 2007) www.youtube.com/profile?user=Samtruitt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:15:03 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: Re: No to intolerance and Islamophobia! (from Jewish Voice for Peace & US Campaign to End the Occupa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Greetings Kuffar & Non-kuffar: If there were a travelling lecture show many hundreds of years ago against = Inquisitionist ideology (representing a minority of Christiandom) - darn th= ose Catholic fascists - even if the speakers were reactionaries, would we p= rotest that/them? So how about this "so-called Terrorism Awareness Project"? What is their "intolerant" message? What is their "phobic" message? Who are the "extremist speakers" and why are they "extreme"? From my experience living in the Arab-Muslim world since 2000, this place s= eems to be a hotbed of phobias: Christophobia, Judeophobia, Secular-phobia,= Humanism-phobia, Iconophobia, Xenophobia... ...and Blame-Everyone-But-Us-For-Everything-Philia. I had never really experienced a real anti-Semetic environment until I star= ted living in the Middle East. (Most people here will say to us outsiders "= we love the Jews; we just hate the Zionists.") One of my colleagues - a Mus= lim female - last year insisted to me that "EVERYbody hates the Jews." I di= dn't know that - "everybody"? I was shocked - "racism and bigotry!" right? One of my students has a Malay mother and American father. (I don't know if= he converted before or for marrying her mother.) She told me that he had q= uite the experience here. Since he's a white American, no one thought he co= uld be a Muslim. But once his colleagues discovered he was a brother Muslim= , they started making all these hateful comments about "the Jews" to him. H= e was shocked. I have angered people (whether my fault or not) and they have called me "Je= w" as an insult. This one young minibus driver in Muscat whom I kept tellin= g to stop turning around and to watch the road, yelled, "You Jew" at me as = he drove away. I just laughed and tried to yell back at him, "You Arab," bu= t I couldn't because I was laughing at his attempt at an insult. That's the= reason I tried to yell back what I did - I thought it was a ridiculous thi= ng to say, to consider an insult. You should see these costume dramas on TV here during Ramadan. Sometimes th= ere are the evil Jews and the evil Christians in them, reinforcing the ounc= e-and-future Muslim Empire's foundation myths. Back to the email topic... Of course, not to be out-done by their so-called enemy, "Terrorism Awarenes= s Project" is prime double-speak. Yes, these things can be like the 5 minut= e hate in *1984*. I agree. OK. So now I looked at the link which lists some possible speakers: "Ann Coulter, who recently made quite a splash with her unabashed Jew-hatre= d" Yes, AC has been a total wack-job everytime I've heard her open her mouth. "Robert Spencer, who calls Islam, "the world's most intolerant religion" So, why can't he say that? Would any of us protest if he'd said the same ab= out Christianity? Do you think Shari'a Law would accept such things as the = US Bill of Rights or the UN Charter on Human Rights? No, they are actually = quite opposed on several points. We may disagree with Spencer's mission or attitude or conclusions, but his = analysis is strictly text-based from the Qu'ran and Hadith. I've read one o= f his books. I would like to hear him in a free and open debate with a poli= tically-correct, Islam-is-the-religion-of-peace-and-tolerance-type Imam. "Rick Santorum, who compared homosexuality to incest and bestiality" Yup, RS is another wack-job. But I don't know what this quote has to do wit= h the topic. Oh well. Insantorum is just speaking in the spirit of the Old = Testament, which by the way often sounds a lot like the Qur'an and Hadith, = especially the the violent passages. "And of course, David Horowitz whose long history of racism has included at= tacks on affirmative action and the statement that 'guns don't kill black p= eople, other blacks do.'" Oh yeah, DH just can't get over being a bad little boy in the 60s and has b= een begging for forgiveness ever since. Anyway, are we suposed to have good poet opinions, and stand in line, on af= firmative action and gun violence? What would they be? I probably already h= ave them but I just feel weird that certain ones may be expected of me. Anyway, I guess I'm replying here because I feel that just about every publ= ic side of this so-called debate (Islamophobia vs. Islamofascism) too often= tends to be over-simplified. Remember, to us these "conservative" speakers sound like Al Gore sounds to = them. You can bet that the Nobel Peace Prize story was told very differentl= y on Fox than on Al-Jazeerah. (It's a hoot switching back and forth.) If the Muslim Empire (under the Ottomans) had not finally been turned back = at Vienna, how different would Europe and the Americas be today? Whenever I implore my students to have anti-war and pro-peace rallies (as o= pposed to the "death to [...]" demonstrations we all see on TV) because "Is= lam is the religion of peace that's been hijacked," they say...when they fi= nally say something...that they feel that they might get hurt by their fell= ow Muslims for taking a public stand against alleged jihadism and alleged t= errorism. (More likely their families could get deported, which is the main= tool of social control in the Gulf with its innumerable expatriates. The g= overnment also controls Mosque preaching so it is not inflamatory.) And tha= t's here in the UAE - a very "tolerant" and laidback place. Such lynchings have been documented in Gaza. Man, that's tolerence! Nicholas Karavatos Dept of English American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates > Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:38:06 -0400 > From: david.chirot@GMAIL.COM > Subject: No to intolerance and Islamophobia! (from Jewish Voice for Peace= & US Campaign to End the Occupation) > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > On October 22-26 the so-called Terrorism Awareness Project, will send ext= remist speakers to campuses across the country to spread a message of intol= erance and Islamophobia, in a campaign billed as "the biggest conservative = campus protest ever." > > Spread the word! Ask your friends to join Jewish Voice for Peace in our c= ondemnation of this campaign of racism and bigotry! > > For more information, go here: http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organ= izations/jvfp/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=3D754 _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:23:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? In-Reply-To: <789186.29126.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit speaking of stein & stealing, a friend of mine worked for a r.e. developer as a house painter & painted James' house in Cambridge when it was sadly being made into condos, & took the door knocker for me--I plan to put it on my door & will think of stein sitting n his liv rm there. On 10/23/07 12:09 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > No, James's entire academic career was spent at Harvard. Stein attended > Radcliff 1893-97(according to Wikipedia), and it was there that she > encountered James, though it is true that she did subsequently attend Johns > Hopkins Medical School, which she left without a degree. > > I only mention this in order to avoid thinking about Heidegger, of course. > > amy king wrote: > She studied with James at Johns Hopkins, and there is a funny little story > about her deciding not to take an exam he once gave. He encouraged her greatly > (and gave her an A the day she wrote the note claiming she didn't feel like > taking a test). She left the medical program about a semester before > graduation. > > Diane DiPrima > wrote: Gertrude Stein studied with William James, I know, while her brother > was > registered at Harvard. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:50:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Baraban Subject: Most delightfully named book store? In-Reply-To: <834210.96532.qm@web82614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Perhaps "Unoppressive Non-Imperialist Bargain Books" in the West Village, Manhattan, 34 Carmine (at Bleecker St.) A small eccentric shop, you can't really go there with the expectation of perhaps finding whatever you are currently interested in, but rather you can check out the categories the owner(s) are interested in, including books by and about William Blake. I forget what else, as I haven't been there for a long time. When mosying around the confusing weirdly-arranged streets around the Film Forum when I had some time before a movie, sometimes this store would suddenly loom into view. They're closing at the end of the year, though, according to an ad of theirs I saw in the latest issue of the (ghost of itself) Village Voice. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:49:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: 28 Weeks Later, Greatest Hits of Innovative Poetry, Poet in Hell & More on JBP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Brainard's Pyjamas looks into the epidemiological void of 28 Weeks Later, ventures some guesses on the long-distance runners of innovation in poetry and Steve Russell tells us how Tristan Tzara would like to cut your hair. It's all festering at....... _http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:25:00 -0500 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: tomorrow: Chicago Calling In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 7:30 p.m. on Wednesday, October 24 The Lab (room 105 in Louis Hall) 1877 Campus Dr. Northwestern University Evanston, IL 60201 www.northwestern.edu 847.866.9687 suggested donation: $5 artists at Northwestern University -- Asimina Chremos -- dance Ed Roberson -- poetry Mars Williams -- saxophone Clifton Hyde -- guitar Jerome Bryerton -- percussion Stephanie Young –- poetry (over the phone) Jon Godston -- soprano saxophone Paul Hartsaw -- tenor saxophone J. Otis Powell -- poetry (over the phone) Joel Wanek -- upright bass Bill MacKay -- guitar Jayve Montgomery -- woodwinds and percussion Dan Godston -- trumpet other performers TBA Groups of varying sizes (duos to large ensemble) are performing during this event. This event is being broadcast live on WNUR. WNUR is a non-commercial, listener-supported radio station broadcasting at a frequency of 89.3 MHz FM at a power of 7200 watts. The WNUR studios are located on the campus of Northwestern University in Evanston, IL and the station produces a signal, which can be heard by nearly 3 million potential listeners throughout Chicagoland. WNUR also streams on the internet via the website www.wnur.org to listeners all around the world. www.chicagocalling.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:19:50 -0700 Reply-To: sanjdoller@gmail.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sandra de 1913 Subject: 1913 news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "1913 a journal of forms" is accepting submissions for Issue 4, now thru April only. Please send e-submissions only to: editrice@joural1913.org / 1913press@gmail.com (for large files) of poems, artwork, prose, translation, the works. Please check out the mag first! "1913 a journal of forms" Issue 3, is forthcoming this fall, featuring work by: Renee Gladman, Shin Yu Pai, Fanny Howe, Sally Keith, Joel Bettridge, Lara Glenum, Jena Osman, Tyrone Williams, Tom Orange, and so many many more. 1913 is also looking for reviews to launch its online Reviews site. Please send nontraditional reviews via email. Send review copies of materials for review to: 1913 Press c/o Sandra Doller Cal State University-San Marcos LTWR Department, Markstein Hall 126J San Marcos, CA 92096-0001 Forthcoming from 1913 Press: "Hg--the liquid" by Ward Tietz, winner of The Rozanova Prize + "Read" a volume of translations from the 2006 Translation Seminar in Paris, edited by Sarah Riggs + Cole Swensen, featuring original work + translations by Saffa Faati, Kathleen Fraser, Jerome Mauche, Ryoko Sekiguchi, and more. 1913 Press is not currently accepting submissions of book-length manuscripts. Please stay tuned for an open reading period. Happy fall, Sandra Doller (nee Miller) founder + editrice de 1913 + Ben Doller (ne Doyle) designer + vice-editor de 1913 -- http://www.journal1913.org http://www.1913press.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:21:34 -0700 Reply-To: sanjdoller@gmail.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sandra de 1913 Subject: 1913 news--correction to email address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "1913 a journal of forms" is accepting submissions for Issue 4, now thru April only. Please send e-submissions only to: editrice@journal1913.org / 1913press@gmail.com (for large files) of poems, artwork, prose, translation, the works. Please check out the mag first! "1913 a journal of forms" Issue 3, is forthcoming this fall, featuring work by: Renee Gladman, Shin Yu Pai, Fanny Howe, Sally Keith, Joel Bettridge, Lara Glenum, Jena Osman, Tyrone Williams, Tom Orange, and so many many more. 1913 is also looking for reviews to launch its online Reviews site. Please send nontraditional reviews via email. Send review copies of materials for review to: 1913 Press c/o Sandra Doller Cal State University-San Marcos LTWR Department, Markstein Hall 126J San Marcos, CA 92096-0001 Forthcoming from 1913 Press: "Hg--the liquid" by Ward Tietz, winner of The Rozanova Prize + "Read" a volume of translations from the 2006 Translation Seminar in Paris, edited by Sarah Riggs + Cole Swensen, featuring original work + translations by Saffa Faati, Kathleen Fraser, Jerome Mauche, Ryoko Sekiguchi, and more. 1913 Press is not currently accepting submissions of book-length manuscripts. Please stay tuned for an open reading period. Happy fall, Sandra Doller (nee Miller) founder + editrice de 1913 + Ben Doller (ne Doyle) designer + vice-editor de 1913 -- http://www.journal1913.org http://www.1913press.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:03:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Picabia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great insight and very true. I haven't read Picabia (will read soon) but Tzara's poetry often seems fresher than experimental poetry written today beyond place. There is an old book by Paul Carrol - The Poem In Its Skin where he discusses John Ashbery's starkly dadaist poem "Leaving the Atocha Station" in conjunction with a Tzara poem to reveal the dada quality in early Ashbery. In fact I have often wondered if anyone did a comparative study of Abstract Expressionist paintings and Dada poetry - they fit each other so well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Nicholson" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Picabia > Barry, > > Great review. I was especially glad to see connections made between > Picabia's work and contemporary poetry. There are a few Dada > poets--particularly Tzara and Picabia--who, in my opinion, have been > overlooked in America due to the popular image of Dada but whose work > was highly developed and complex, using techniques that make them look > almost like contemporaries at times. > > It amazes me that the techniques used by Picabia and Tzara are > applauded when used by poets like John Ashbery, David Shapiro, John > Yau, etc. but are completely ignored when they appear in Picabia and > Tzara's work. This isn't to say that I don't want to see Ashbery, > Shapiro, or Yau applauded--on the contrary, I think their discovery, > re-invention, and interpretation of collage, "abstraction," and > colorful intensity is often breathtaking--but I would like it if > American readers would stop being blinded by the Dada manifestos and > actually pay attention to a couple of very powerful poets. > > On 10/19/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> Members of this list may be interested in my piece on the poetry of >> Francis Picabia, in the current issue of The Nation: >> http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.8/1088 - Release Date: > 10/23/2007 1:26 PM > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:14:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: No to intolerance and Islamophobia! (from Jewish Voice for Peace & US Campaign to End the Occupa In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit thank you & sorry for what you have dealt with. On 10/23/07 5:15 PM, "Nicholas Karavatos" wrote: > Greetings Kuffar & Non-kuffar: > > If there were a travelling lecture show many hundreds of years ago against > Inquisitionist ideology (representing a minority of Christiandom) - darn those > Catholic fascists - even if the speakers were reactionaries, would we protest > that/them? > > So how about this "so-called Terrorism Awareness Project"? > > What is their "intolerant" message? > > What is their "phobic" message? > > Who are the "extremist speakers" and why are they "extreme"? > > From my experience living in the Arab-Muslim world since 2000, this place > seems to be a hotbed of phobias: Christophobia, Judeophobia, Secular-phobia, > Humanism-phobia, Iconophobia, Xenophobia... > > ...and Blame-Everyone-But-Us-For-Everything-Philia. > > I had never really experienced a real anti-Semetic environment until I started > living in the Middle East. (Most people here will say to us outsiders "we love > the Jews; we just hate the Zionists.") One of my colleagues - a Muslim female > - last year insisted to me that "EVERYbody hates the Jews." I didn't know that > - "everybody"? > > I was shocked - "racism and bigotry!" right? > > One of my students has a Malay mother and American father. (I don't know if he > converted before or for marrying her mother.) She told me that he had quite > the experience here. Since he's a white American, no one thought he could be a > Muslim. But once his colleagues discovered he was a brother Muslim, they > started making all these hateful comments about "the Jews" to him. He was > shocked. > > I have angered people (whether my fault or not) and they have called me "Jew" > as an insult. This one young minibus driver in Muscat whom I kept telling to > stop turning around and to watch the road, yelled, "You Jew" at me as he drove > away. I just laughed and tried to yell back at him, "You Arab," but I couldn't > because I was laughing at his attempt at an insult. That's the reason I tried > to yell back what I did - I thought it was a ridiculous thing to say, to > consider an insult. > > You should see these costume dramas on TV here during Ramadan. Sometimes there > are the evil Jews and the evil Christians in them, reinforcing the > ounce-and-future Muslim Empire's foundation myths. > > Back to the email topic... > > Of course, not to be out-done by their so-called enemy, "Terrorism Awareness > Project" is prime double-speak. Yes, these things can be like the 5 minute > hate in *1984*. I agree. > > OK. So now I looked at the link which lists some possible speakers: > > "Ann Coulter, who recently made quite a splash with her unabashed Jew-hatred" > > Yes, AC has been a total wack-job everytime I've heard her open her mouth. > > "Robert Spencer, who calls Islam, "the world's most intolerant religion" > > So, why can't he say that? Would any of us protest if he'd said the same about > Christianity? Do you think Shari'a Law would accept such things as the US Bill > of Rights or the UN Charter on Human Rights? No, they are actually quite > opposed on several points. > > We may disagree with Spencer's mission or attitude or conclusions, but his > analysis is strictly text-based from the Qu'ran and Hadith. I've read one of > his books. I would like to hear him in a free and open debate with a > politically-correct, Islam-is-the-religion-of-peace-and-tolerance-type Imam. > > "Rick Santorum, who compared homosexuality to incest and bestiality" > > Yup, RS is another wack-job. But I don't know what this quote has to do with > the topic. Oh well. Insantorum is just speaking in the spirit of the Old > Testament, which by the way often sounds a lot like the Qur'an and Hadith, > especially the the violent passages. > > "And of course, David Horowitz whose long history of racism has included > attacks on affirmative action and the statement that 'guns don't kill black > people, other blacks do.'" > > Oh yeah, DH just can't get over being a bad little boy in the 60s and has been > begging for forgiveness ever since. > > Anyway, are we suposed to have good poet opinions, and stand in line, on > affirmative action and gun violence? What would they be? I probably already > have them but I just feel weird that certain ones may be expected of me. > > Anyway, I guess I'm replying here because I feel that just about every public > side of this so-called debate (Islamophobia vs. Islamofascism) too often tends > to be over-simplified. > > Remember, to us these "conservative" speakers sound like Al Gore sounds to > them. You can bet that the Nobel Peace Prize story was told very differently > on Fox than on Al-Jazeerah. (It's a hoot switching back and forth.) > > If the Muslim Empire (under the Ottomans) had not finally been turned back at > Vienna, how different would Europe and the Americas be today? > > Whenever I implore my students to have anti-war and pro-peace rallies (as > opposed to the "death to [...]" demonstrations we all see on TV) because > "Islam is the religion of peace that's been hijacked," they say...when they > finally say something...that they feel that they might get hurt by their > fellow Muslims for taking a public stand against alleged jihadism and alleged > terrorism. (More likely their families could get deported, which is the main > tool of social control in the Gulf with its innumerable expatriates. The > government also controls Mosque preaching so it is not inflamatory.) And > that's here in the UAE - a very "tolerant" and laidback place. > > Such lynchings have been documented in Gaza. > > Man, that's tolerence! > > > > > Nicholas Karavatos > Dept of English > American University of Sharjah > PO Box 26666 > Sharjah > United Arab Emirates > > >> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:38:06 -0400 >> From: david.chirot@GMAIL.COM >> Subject: No to intolerance and Islamophobia! (from Jewish Voice for Peace & >> US Campaign to End the Occupation) >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> On October 22-26 the so-called Terrorism Awareness Project, will send >> extremist speakers to campuses across the country to spread a message of >> intolerance and Islamophobia, in a campaign billed as "the biggest >> conservative campus protest ever." >> >> Spread the word! Ask your friends to join Jewish Voice for Peace in our >> condemnation of this campaign of racism and bigotry! >> >> For more information, go here: >> http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizations/jvfp/petition.jsp?petition >> _KEY=754 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? In-Reply-To: <254236.83709.qm@web83313.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GS studied w/ James at the "Harvard Annex," later to be known as Radcliffe. But with regard to the original question, i guess that means it was Frost and not Williams (who went to UPenn, i believe, w/ Ezra Pound), who *also* studied w/ James at Harvard. ?? amy king wrote: > She studied with James at Johns Hopkins, and there is a funny little story about her deciding not to take an exam he once gave. He encouraged her greatly (and gave her an A the day she wrote the note claiming she didn't feel like taking a test). She left the medical program about a semester before graduation. > > Diane DiPrima wrote: Gertrude Stein studied with William James, I know, while her brother was > registered at Harvard. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:04:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Re: Most delightfully named book store? In-Reply-To: <765272.44919.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My favorite is the perfectly (re)named Unnameable Books, as much for how suited that name is to the context of its renaming as the delish Beckett reference. Tell Adam Tod says "Yo!" (Yo, Adam: Yo!) Unnameable Books (new & used) still Adam's, formerly "Adam's" *** UNNAMEABLE BOOKS *** 456 Bergen Street Brooklyn NY 11217 (718) 789-1534 unnameablebooks@earthlink.net TUES noon - 10 pm WEDS noon - 10 pm THUR noon - 10 pm FRID 10 am - midnight SATU 10 am - midnight SUND 10 am - 10 pm MOND closed *** New name, same new store. Now 100% guaranteed unnameable. We are not in any way associated with anything called "The Adams Book Company." Really, we prefer not to associate with people like that. *** Located in north Park Slope, Brooklyn, just around the corner from the Atlantic Yards landgrab. Between 5th Avenue and Flatbush. Steps from the Bergen Street 2,3 train. A very short walk from BAM, the Atlantic Ave. subway hub, the Long Island Railroad, Pintchik Hardware, Blue Sky Bakery, the Target Superstore, Prospect Heights, Boerum Hill, downtown Brooklyn, Fort Greene -- we are close to everything. Look at a map. *** Send us an email to sign up for our monthly newsletter! Stephen Baraban wrote: Perhaps "Unoppressive Non-Imperialist Bargain Books" in the West Village, Manhattan, 34 Carmine (at Bleecker St.) A small eccentric shop, you can't really go there with the expectation of perhaps finding whatever you are currently interested in, but rather you can check out the categories the owner(s) are interested in, including books by and about William Blake. I forget what else, as I haven't been there for a long time. When mosying around the confusing weirdly-arranged streets around the Film Forum when I had some time before a movie, sometimes this store would suddenly loom into view. They're closing at the end of the year, though, according to an ad of theirs I saw in the latest issue of the (ghost of itself) Village Voice. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Doctoral Student Department of English Park Hall University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602 tod@uga.edu "The meaning of certainty is getting burned. Though truth will still escape us, we must put our hands on bodies. Staying safe is a different death, the instruments of defense eating inward without evening out the score." - Rosmarie Waldrop, Lawn of Excluded Middle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 01:13:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: family hearth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed family hearth wife and father and cat, 30 and 93 and 7, videomaker 64, at home in pennsylvania http://www.asondheim.org/familyhearth.mov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:11:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Favorite Poetry Bookstore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is one all poetry bookstore west of Cambridge: Open Books: A Poem Emp= orium, featured on The News Hour:=0A=0Ahttp://pbs-newshour.onstreammedia.co= m/cgi-bin/visearch?user=3Dpbs-newshour&template=3Dplay220asf.html&query=3D%= 2A&squery=3D+ClipID%3A4++VideoAsset%3Apbsnh102207&inputField=3D%20&ccstart= =3D2747259&ccend=3D3237313&videoID=3Dpbsnh102207=0A=0AJohn Marshall and Chr= istine Deavel are two fine poets, great people and seem to be making a livi= ng selling poetry. One time I was buying books there and told John I should= n't be buying because I did not have any money. He said: "If we sold only t= o people who had money, we'd be out of business."=0A=0Ahttp://www.openpoetr= ybooks.com/=0A =0APaul E. Nelson, M.A. =0A=0A=0AGlobal Voices Radio=0ASPLAB= !=0AAmerican Sentences=0AOrganic Poetry=0APoetry Postcard Blog=0AWashington= Poets Association=0A=0AIlalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328=0A=0A"If th= ere is still one hellish, truly accursed thing in our time, it is our artis= tic dallying with forms, instead of being like victims burnt at the stake, = signaling through the flames." --Artaud=0A=0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:25:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Heidegger was basically spineless when it came to politics. His rectorial address is about as bad as it gets (something like "the Fuhrer is the only, ultimate, and sole reality"). He did nothing to defend Husserl's dismissal from Freiburg, based entirely on his Jewishness. His thought is, at many places throughout his career, fascinating, beautiful, useful, irreplaceable. As a way of thinking as an ongoing activity, an open process that isn't obsessed with results, it's perhaps unparalleled. Some of the philosophy that has actually often come to mind in relation to my everyday experience. And he gets tripped up on the very conceptual baggage he claims to avoid, confusing the productive tentativity with which he never-quite-defines his jargon with the vagueness of authoritarian power (wonderful books that would otherwise end in frustrating inconclusiveness are capped off with statements like "we must bow down before the mystery"). When lessons can't be learned from this sort of thing, I've found that the best response is to make fun of him--which has also been the case when reading some of his best stuff, and is why I always refer to him as "Heidi," imagining him skipping around in his little mountain knickers... I like a lot of "Poetry, Language, Thought." I often think his writing on poetry is nonsense, though, and that the poets themselves always do better. "The Origin of the Work of Art" has been a really productive text to struggle with--the ideas of "earth" and "world," I find, constantly reveal new and illuminating facets. At the same time, I'm troubled there, and all over Heidi, by the emphasis on rootedness, "establishing nations," peoples, gods... I have an essay from college I've been meaning to de-academize that contrasts the "establishing" trend in that essay with Silliman's "Tjanting" as an artwork (one of many) that enacts phenomenology in a loosening way, dehabituating, opening up a "world" constantly even as it "sets it up." There's a much better translation, incidentally, in the Cambridge edition of "Holzwege." Anyway, I'm for it. --Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 01:05:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric unger Subject: STRING OF SMALL MACHINES: issue 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline string of small machines : issue 3, out now from House Press. A poem by Paul Klinger from the issue : Me, Marvell seeing how much could swing upon one part receiving more I am at them with this in mind and I am sound is Marvell as he has made himself a pocket a real purse he has where he keeps these ideas always at the vegeta- ble after that part- icular address veritable which skin feeling of the other end -- featuring : sabrina calle harold abramowitz & amanda ackerman kathryn l. pringle cedar sigo maureen thorson mark lamoureux brandon downing roberto harrison paul klinger elzabeth robinson cover: michael slosek copies available for 6 dollars thru PayPal at http://housepress.blogspot.com string of small machines is the poetry magazine of House Press, published in Chicago, edited by Luke Daly, Barrett Gordon, and Eric Unger. House Press is an independent, poetry-centered arts community founded in Buffalo, NY in 2002. Authors / publishers live in Buffalo, Chicago, New York, Albany, Charlottesville, and San Francisco. More info : http://www.housepress.org http://housepress.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:36:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Oct 26: BEAST POEM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You are invited to a performance of BEAST POEM 5pm Friday, October 26th in front of the James R. Thompson Center 100 W. Randolph Street Chicago, IL Sponsored by the 2nd annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival http://www.chicagocalling.org Poet and artist Jennifer Karmin is collecting writing that plays with the idea of the beast. On October 26th, she will perform BEAST POEM at Jean Dubuffet's sculpture Monument with Standing Beast. After reading the writing aloud, each piece will be given away to commuters on the trains that run next to the sculpture in the Clark/Lake station. Participating writers include: David Baratier, Amina Cain, Daniel Godston, Laura Goldstein, Carolyn Guinzio, Paul Hoover, Pierre Joris, Becca Klaver, Larissa Shmailo, Edwin Torres, and more. BEAST POEM was recently featured on Chicago Public Radio. Once downloaded, the interview and reading are easiest to find at running times 5:46-9:51. http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/Program_HB_Segment.aspx?segmentID=14105 Submissions ********************************************* Writing for BEAST POEM may be submitted through October 24, 2007. This writing can take any shape or form: poem, story, essay, letter, etc. All writing will considered for 2008-09 publication. Writers should send published or unpublished writing along with one number (1-5) and one color (blue, brown, green, orange, pink, purple). Submissions may be emailed as a word attachment with the subject BEAST POEM to jkarmin@yahoo.com. Chicago Calling Arts Festival: October 24-27, 2007 **************************************************** Chicago-based artists will showcase performances and projects that involve collaborations with artists living in other locations, here in the U.S. and in other countries worldwide. Artists involved with Chicago Calling work in a range of media, including: music, painting, photography, poetry, and dance. Their collaborations will be prepared, improvised, or a combination of both. This festival is a part of Chicago Artists Month, the twelfth annual celebration of Chicago's vibrant visual art community. http://www.chicagoartistsmonth.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:23:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Poetry Forum on Goodreads In-Reply-To: <7144.86439.qm@web56907.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just a note to let you know I'm the moderator of a fairly active forum on Goodreads for those so willing: http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/233._POETRY_ The members hail from many corners of the globe - from Iran to Japan to Canada to Texas -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:56:35 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <188266.43921.qm@web50206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Damn right we should be critical of what we read, underlying assumptions, e= tc. But when a discussion of this type pops up, I always end up wondering, "Why= aren't we just as critical of so-called Communist [poets] as we are of the= so-called Fascists?" Or is that a false anology? It's just I hear "s/he was personally a fascist" dismissively hung around t= he necks of [poets and philosphers], but I never hear similar conclusive ju= dgements about writers of any other socio-political stance. Or maybe I'm no= t listening. (Hey, was Dante an "Islamophobe"? He shoved Mohammed into Hell as a "schism= atic" in the *Inferno*, didn't he? Does that make Dante a "Christofascist"?= ) When we read [poets, philosophers, historians] from bygone eras, perhaps th= e ancient world, do we consider what their socio-political positions were f= or any reason other than to delve into the context of their time? I don't think we use the same readerly objectivity on writers since the end= of the 19 century. Now it's personal. Generally speaking, as I've travelled outside The West I've been astonished= at how many people personally consider classism, racism, and sexism to be = the normal, natural order of the world and any arguments against such as co= ntrary to human nature. I have noticed much of the world still thinks these= socio-political stances are correct. I wonder if any great writers today from any of these countries subscribe t= o any of these world views? If they do, should I multiculturally accept the= m, or ideologically denounce them, or both, or niether? I don't know. Yeah, yeah - this is the same old debate of whether an [artist's] personal = behavior or political views should affect our relationship with their [arti= stic] activity. Nicholas Karavatos Dept of Language & Literature American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:13:30 -0700 > From: samtruitt@YAHOO.COM > Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Brother, You need to look more closely > under the Heidegger's hood - seductive > writing - compelling - but he was a nazi > as evidenced in his writing of '30s > including in his turn re. what happened > with CONTRIBUTION TO PHILOSOPHY, which > while thoroughly deep is laced with > anti-semitisms. He's a mixed bag - take > from it what you can that's useful. > > Best as ever, > Sam > --- steve russell wrote: > >> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a beautiful >> book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He no >> longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it "thinking." >> Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue with >> the world. >> >> As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious >> of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for >> refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, >> his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way >> a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his >> being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among major >> 20th century artist & thinkers. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Sam Truitt's "Days" > (improvisational AV > strip each day of 2007) > www.youtube.com/profile?user=3DSamtruitt > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0 Play Star Shuffle:=A0 the word scramble = challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= t= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:25:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Comments: To: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" Comments: cc: Britis-Irish List Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out these recent NOMADICS posts at http://pjoris.blogspot.com: R.B. Kitaj 1932-2007 Archipelago Thinking George Seferis' Journals G=FCnter Grass Upcoming Readings & Performances NSA Domestic Phone Record Program Allen Fisher's Reading enjoy, Pierre ___________________________________________________________ In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of art. =20 -- Joseph Beuys ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com/ Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:16:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <1193155525l.1126538l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i checked out the Der Spiegel interview after reading your post. he's questioned on both matters. his answer to the rector's address isn't very convincing. on Husserl, i believe him. he calls his treatment of Husser "a human error" and goes on to state that he sent Husserl an apology. i suppose there's no point in trying to defend his blunders. i simply think the totality of his life should be kept in perspective. Shortly before Richard Rorty died, he wrote (I'm paraphrasing), Heidegger was the best Philosopher of the 20th century, but a political coward. I'm not so sure that's fair. ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: yes, that is a beautiful book and, well . . . he also suppressed the dedication to Husserl of his most famous book when that became inconvenient during the Nazi era -- and the infamous rector's address is infamous for good reason -- all of which simply means that we should keep reading him for all that we can learn -- including the humbling lessons of his mast hateful moments -- On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 09:55 AM, steve russell wrote: > Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a >beautiful book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the >turning." He no longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it >"thinking." Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's >dialogue with the world. > > As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious of >modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for refusing to >censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his lover at one >time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent of racial >theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by political >bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & >thinkers. > > __________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:38:22 -0400 Reply-To: sdz@buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Zultanski Subject: President's Choice Launch Reading in NYC Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi all, Just letting you know that on Nov. 3 in NYC there's going to be a great rea= ding to launch the first issue of President's Choice magazine.=20 The readers: Rodrigo Toscano Kim Rosenfield Kareem Estefan Brian Kim Stefans Robert Fitterman Lawrence Giffin Lauren Spohrer All appearing at: The 169 Bar (169 East Broadway) in Manhattan, on Saturday, Nov. 3, from 5:30 - 8 The cost is $5. Hope to see each and every one of you there. In the meantime, President's Choice is still available right here: http://www.presidentschoice.blogspot.com/ Best, Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:39:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <188266.43921.qm@web50206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I haven't read the Contribution. I'll check it out. If this piece is laced with anti- semitism, it's unlike any Heidegger I've read so far. Whatever it was about the Volk ... why he felt there was some "inner truth" to National Socialism ... some way to preserve German Identity against the onslaught of technological modernity, there, I think, is where Heidegger's thinking might be revealing. I share some of Heidegger's phobia concerning technology, agriculture, etc. Still, maybe I do need to "look more closely under Heidegger's hood." Sam Truitt wrote: Brother, You need to look more closely under the Heidegger's hood - seductive writing - compelling - but he was a nazi as evidenced in his writing of '30s including in his turn re. what happened with CONTRIBUTION TO PHILOSOPHY, which while thoroughly deep is laced with anti-semitisms. He's a mixed bag - take from it what you can that's useful. Best as ever, Sam --- steve russell wrote: > Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a beautiful > book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He no > longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it "thinking." > Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue with > the world. > > As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious > of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for > refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, > his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way > a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his > being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among major > 20th century artist & thinkers. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _____________________________________________________________ Sam Truitt's "Days" (improvisational AV strip each day of 2007) www.youtube.com/profile?user=Samtruitt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:50:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Mr. Russell & Tristan Tzara on Joe Brainard's Pyjamas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I let everyone in on The Secret to A Perfect Haircut, a poem by Tristan Tzara & Me. See Joe Brainard's Pyjamas. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:16:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Most delightfully named book store? In-Reply-To: <800459.68292.qm@web54204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed My favorite is still Boox/Books, the original name for Woodland Patterns in Milw. I remember the first time I saw it when I was young, I couldn't figure out the weird spelling. How times have changed, as they say. I think they changed the name in the late 70s. ~mIEKAL On Oct 23, 2007, at 11:04 PM, Michael Tod Edgerton wrote: > My favorite is the perfectly (re)named Unnameable Books, as much > for how suited that name is to the context of its renaming as the > delish Beckett reference. Tell Adam Tod says "Yo!" (Yo, Adam: Yo!) The covers of this book are too far apart. -- Ambrose Bierce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:33:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: Chicago Review 53:2/3 Is Available Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed The autumn double issue of CR (53:2/3) is available for purchase at --- http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ Use code GROSSMAN for 10% off subscriptions and individual issues. The issue --- POEMS Book V of Ronald Johnson=92s Radi os (entitled =93The Book of Adam=94); =20= =93Rising, Falling, Hovering,=94 the second half of C.D. Wright=92s long = =20 poem surrounding the Iraq war (the first half was published in CR =20 51:3); as well as work by Larissa Szporluk, William Fuller, Sarah =20 Gridley, Roberto Harrison, Mark Tardi, John Peck, Er=EDn Moure, Oana =20 Avasilichioaei, and Elisa Sampedr=EDn. FICTION Five short stories by Peter Markus and Jedediah Berry=92s =93Minus, His =20= Heart.=94 ESSAYS Georges Perec's =93For a Realist Literature=94 (translated and = introduced =20 by Rob Halpern) and Allen Grossman's essay on communicative =20 difficulty and Hart Crane's =93The Broken Tower.=94 The issue also includes =93Numbers Trouble,=94 an essay by Juliana Spahr = =20 and Stephanie Young on gender and contemporary poetry, plus a =20 response by Jennifer Ashton. REVIEWS Robert P. Baird on Eliot Weinberger's An Elemental Thing Michael Robbins on Frederick Seidel's Ooga-Booga Catherine Wagner on Harryette Mullen's Recyclopedia Chris Woods on Zak Smith=92s Gravity=92s Rainbow Illustrated Diana George on Hermann Ungar's Boys & Murderers Spencer Dew on Gabriel Pomerand's Saint Ghetto of the Loans David J. Alworth on Daniel Kane's Don't Ever Get Famous P. Genesius Durica on Laird Hunt's The Exquisite Joshua Baldwin on Kevin Connolly's Drift ...and the next episode of Kent Johnson=92s critical novella, on J.H. =20= Prynne=92s To Pollen [http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ features a few of these =20 reviews as free pdfs] IN ADDITION . . . A long response by John Wilkinson to Peter Riley's letter in CR 53:1, =20= postcards of Ronald Johnson's concrete poem Balloons for Moonless =20 Nights, and a note on gender representation in literary magazines. + + + + Please visit us at --- and subscribe --- at http://=20 humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ + + + + Also this week: CR is having an open house. Please visit Lillie House this Friday evening at 7:30 to celebrate =20 the launch of Chicago Review 53:2/3. Contributors Roberto Harrison and Kent Johnson --- all the way from =20 Milwaukee and Freeport, respectively --- will read. There will also be drink and good cheer --- and copies of the new =20 issue . . . Lillie House is located at 5801 South Kenwood Ave / 60637, just east =20 of the University of Chicago quad in Hyde Park. + + + + Next week: material from earlier issues that link with this one will =20 be posted online (the first half of C.D. Wright's "Rising, Falling, =20 Hovering," part one of Kent Johnson's critical novella on British =20 poetry, and John Wilkinson's review of Simon Jarvis and Peter Riley's =20= response). + + + + | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chicago Review 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago Illinois 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:12:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Hoerman Subject: Blogger doppelgangers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A few years back I had a blog hosted by Blogger, which I deleted after several months of daily blogging. For me, it was a temporary thing to sound out my poetics and connect with poets. When it stopped being fun I deleted the blog thinking that would be the end of it. Withina short time another user obtained the same URL, retrieved my old posts frrom somewhere--probably Google Cache--and reposted them, even using my name on the site. After several months of back and forth with Google Legal, they finally forced removed my posts from the doppelganger site. It turns out, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act protects such posts. If you have a blog and you want to stop, it might be better to delete posts but leave the blog active. Otherwise you might end up needing the 12-step program of letters to Blogger Legal, etc. Some poets out there still include a link to my old blog pornfeld_dot_blogspot_dot_com. I haven't operated that blog for almost three years. I do have a personal website at myname.com. Michael Hoerman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:17:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <992320.28183.qm@web52401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit can you elaborate on what you find unfair abt rorty's assessment? it seems to give him his due, and at the same time point out the obvious. not every brilliant person is also a model of political courage, and i find it actually reassuring and somewhat refreshing to have that pointed out. who knows what many of us would do in the same situation, but let's tell it like it is. steve russell wrote: > i checked out the Der Spiegel interview after reading your post. he's questioned on both matters. his answer to the rector's address isn't very convincing. on Husserl, i believe him. he calls his treatment of Husser "a human error" and goes on to state that he sent Husserl an apology. i suppose there's no point in trying to defend his blunders. i simply think the totality of his life should be kept in perspective. Shortly before Richard Rorty died, he wrote (I'm paraphrasing), Heidegger was the best Philosopher of the 20th century, but a political coward. I'm not so sure that's fair. > > > > ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: yes, that is a beautiful book > > and, well . . . he also suppressed the dedication to Husserl of his most famous > book when that became inconvenient during the Nazi era -- and the infamous > rector's address is infamous for good reason -- > > all of which simply means that we should keep reading him for all that we can > learn -- including the humbling lessons of his mast hateful moments -- > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 09:55 AM, steve russell > wrote: > > >> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a >> beautiful book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the >> turning." He no longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it >> "thinking." Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's >> dialogue with the world. >> >> As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious of >> modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for refusing to >> censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his lover at one >> time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent of racial >> theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by political >> bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & >> thinkers. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:22:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Truitt Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, I agree--need to drink with a long spoon - the same as we measure Dant= e, as well posited - and I think underlying it is a standards' issue viz. w= e expect better behavior from a philosopher than a poet, oddly - and I don'= t know why - particularly for me in light of the fact I hold poets, not phi= losophers, must become kings if our beings are to run on real time. But it = is of a piece - as Joyce said re. Yeats (blue shirt), "show me the man" - a= nd Heidegger conveyed, laid out, a way - held up a light - but seeing such = I think we need to consider the shape of the lantern - too with Eliot and P= ound among others of era. Williams on the other hand called it, of course. = Again, I think we take what we can use.=0A =0A_____________________________= ________________________________=0A=0ASam Truitt's "Days" =0A(improvisation= al AV=0Astrip each day of 2007)=0Awww.youtube.com/profile?user=3DSamtruitt= =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Nicholas Karavatos =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesda= y, October 24, 2007 4:56:35 AM=0ASubject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Mart= in Heidegger=0A=0A=0ADamn right we should be critical of what we read, unde= rlying=0A assumptions, etc.=0A=0ABut when a discussion of this type pops up= , I always end up wondering,=0A "Why aren't we just as critical of so-calle= d Communist [poets] as we=0A are of the so-called Fascists?"=0A=0AOr is tha= t a false anology?=0A=0AIt's just I hear "s/he was personally a fascist" di= smissively hung=0A around the necks of [poets and philosphers], but I never= hear similar=0A conclusive judgements about writers of any other socio-pol= itical stance. Or=0A maybe I'm not listening.=0A=0A(Hey, was Dante an "Isla= mophobe"? He shoved Mohammed into Hell as a=0A "schismatic" in the *Inferno= *, didn't he? Does that make Dante a=0A "Christofascist"?)=0A=0AWhen we rea= d [poets, philosophers, historians] from bygone eras,=0A perhaps the ancien= t world, do we consider what their socio-political=0A positions were for an= y reason other than to delve into the context of their=0A time?=0A=0AI don'= t think we use the same readerly objectivity on writers since the=0A end of= the 19 century. Now it's personal.=0A=0AGenerally speaking, as I've travel= led outside The West I've been=0A astonished at how many people personally = consider classism, racism, and=0A sexism to be the normal, natural order of= the world and any arguments=0A against such as contrary to human nature. I= have noticed much of the world=0A still thinks these socio-political stanc= es are correct.=0A=0AI wonder if any great writers today from any of these = countries=0A subscribe to any of these world views? If they do, should I mu= lticulturally=0A accept them, or ideologically denounce them, or both, or n= iether?=0A=0AI don't know.=0A=0AYeah, yeah - this is the same old debate of= whether an [artist's]=0A personal behavior or political views should affec= t our relationship with=0A their [artistic] activity.=0A=0A=0A=0ANicholas K= aravatos=0ADept of Language & Literature=0AAmerican University of Sharjah= =0APO Box 26666=0ASharjah=0AUnited Arab Emirates=0A=0A> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2= 007 13:13:30 -0700=0A> From: samtruitt@YAHOO.COM=0A> Subject: Re: Poetry La= nguage Thought/ Martin Heidegger=0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A>= =0A> Brother, You need to look more closely=0A> under the Heidegger's hood = - seductive=0A> writing - compelling - but he was a nazi=0A> as evidenced i= n his writing of '30s=0A> including in his turn re. what happened=0A> with = CONTRIBUTION TO PHILOSOPHY, which=0A> while thoroughly deep is laced with= =0A> anti-semitisms. He's a mixed bag - take=0A> from it what you can that'= s useful.=0A>=0A> Best as ever,=0A> Sam=0A> --- steve russell wrote:=0A>= =0A>> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a=0A beau= tiful=0A>> book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning."= He=0A no=0A>> longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it=0A= "thinking."=0A>> Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's d= ialogue=0A with=0A>> the world.=0A>>=0A>> As for his political stance, I on= ly know that he was deeply=0A suspicious=0A>> of modernity. He was expelled= from the University of Frieburg for=0A>> refusing to censor Nietzsche anti= /anti Semitic writings. Hannah=0A Arent,=0A>> his lover at one time, defend= ed him to the end. Heidegger was in no=0A way=0A>> a proponent of racial th= eories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as=0A his=0A>> being duped by polit= ical bullshit, is certainly not alone among=0A major=0A>> 20th century arti= st & thinkers.=0A>>=0A>> __________________________________________________= =0A>> Do You Yahoo!?=0A>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam prot= ection around=0A>> http://mail.yahoo.com=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A> _________________= ____________________________________________=0A>=0A> Sam Truitt's "Days"=0A= > (improvisational AV=0A> strip each day of 2007)=0A> www.youtube.com/profi= le?user=3DSamtruitt=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> _______________________________________= ___________=0A> Do You Yahoo!?=0A> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best = spam protection around=0A> http://mail.yahoo.com=0A=0A_____________________= ____________________________________________=0AClimb to the top of the char= ts! Play Star Shuffle: the word=0A scramble challenge with star power.=0A= http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= t=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You= Yahoo!?=0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around = =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:18:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Grant Jenkins Subject: best poetry book store? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to some recent posts, I've been able to update my experimental-friendly bookstore list . Keep 'em coming, and backchannel me, if you think of more Grant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:20:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Frost, Stevens: which one actually took classes w William James? In-Reply-To: <471EAD9C.9050604@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Stein at proto-Radcliffe. Stevens, not Williams. Stevens also went to Harvard, but I don't think he studied with James there. He took a few courses, went on to NYU law. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:20:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: Most delightfully named book store? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For me and for all my Albany days, it is Dove & Hudson Old Books 296 Hudson Ave. (at the intersection of Dove and Hudson), run by Dan Wedge and denison'd by people like me, Harrison Fisher, and the entire band of ED's Redeeming Qualities... when in town... Gerald S. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:44:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lauren levin Subject: Issue #1 of Mrs. Maybe Now Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mrs Maybe #1 is now available.=0AIt includes poems written by:=0A =0A = =0A=0A Jessica Savitz, Kyle Kaufman, Avery Burns,Megan Breiseth, Cat= herine Theis, Stephanie Young, Scott Inguito, Lauren Levin, Julie Choffel, = Graham Foust=0A=0A=0A, Steve Kramp, Jared Stanley, Aaron McCollough=0A, Mar= isa Libbon, Sandra Lim and Tyrone Williams, plus a =0ARobert Duncan top ten= list from Lisa Jarnot, with cover art by George Chen. =0A=0A=0A=0A = =0ACopies of the magazine are available for seven dollars postage paid.=0AP= lease email us (mrs.maybe@gmail.com) or visit our website, =0A=0Amrs-maybe.= com for more information. =0A=0AIf you live in the Bay Area, please come to= our reading at =0A=0ACanessa Park Gallery in San Francisco =0Aon November = 11th, a Sunday, 3pm.=0A=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0ALauren Levin & Jared Stanley, Edi= tors=0AMrs Maybe, a Journal of Skeptical Occultism=0A"Stop seeing things an= d let the scene begin."=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Amrs-maybe.com =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__= ________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!?=0ATired o= f spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp://mail.yah= oo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:58:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <992320.28183.qm@web52401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on the Heidegger & fascism thing, I did some work years ago when the Farias book came out, and that essay is available on EPC (http:// writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/heideggerfascism.html) and may still be of use for anyone coming new to the question. Pierre On Oct 24, 2007, at 9:16 AM, steve russell wrote: > i checked out the Der Spiegel interview after reading your post. > he's questioned on both matters. his answer to the rector's address > isn't very convincing. on Husserl, i believe him. he calls his > treatment of Husser "a human error" and goes on to state that he > sent Husserl an apology. i suppose there's no point in trying to > defend his blunders. i simply think the totality of his life should > be kept in perspective. Shortly before Richard Rorty died, he wrote > (I'm paraphrasing), Heidegger was the best Philosopher of the 20th > century, but a political coward. I'm not so sure that's fair. > > > > ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: yes, that is a beautiful book > > and, well . . . he also suppressed the dedication to Husserl of his > most famous > book when that became inconvenient during the Nazi era -- and the > infamous > rector's address is infamous for good reason -- > > all of which simply means that we should keep reading him for all > that we can > learn -- including the humbling lessons of his mast hateful moments -- > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 09:55 AM, steve russell > wrote: > >> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a >> beautiful book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the >> turning." He no longer called what he did philosophy. He simply >> called it >> "thinking." Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's >> dialogue with the world. >> >> As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply >> suspicious of >> modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for >> refusing to >> censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his >> lover at one >> time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent >> of racial >> theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by >> political >> bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & >> thinkers. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of art. -- Joseph Beuys ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com/ Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 18:16:45 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: horrors of neo-liberalism threaten the German book world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fascinating: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/24/arts/24book.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:50:13 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Lovin Subject: Re: best poetry book store? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I forgot to mention a tiny bookstore in Midcoast Maine: The Personal Book Shop, on Main Street in Thomaston, Maine (just down the street from the Maine Prison Store). The shop is run by a very cool woman, Marty. Although she carries more than poetry books, she is very attuned to the poetry vibe in Maine and hosts many poetry readings in her cozy little shop. If she doesn't have what you want, she will go to great lengths to get it. Stop in if you're in the Camden/Rockland/Thomaston area. Tell her I sent you! Christina Lovin -------------- Original message from Grant Jenkins : -------------- > Thanks to some recent posts, I've been able to update my > experimental-friendly bookstore list > . Keep 'em coming, and > backchannel me, if you think of more > > Grant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:18:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Picabia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Stephen and Barry: Apologies for the delay in responding--i began this Sunday and ever since have been experiencing the interrelationship of the intermittent with the interminable--intermittently being able to write a few words among interminable interruptions, making the intermittent entries become an interminable project unless ----put it this way--i better be done in time for Game One of the "World Serious" as Ring Lardner's characters call it-- Thank you very much for the review Barry--i am very much looking forward to reading the book and liked your review-- the question i bring up here--is more of a general one which also includes the review, but only a tiny tiny bit of the review-- i shd also mention that at one point Picabia was a friend of Gertrude Stein's and before people think otherwise i have been a fan of her works for so lon= g a time it is impossible for me to grasp actually having able to traverse so many eons--who knows, perhaps i, too, was a friend of Gertrude Stein's and am just suffering from temporary amnesia? I do recall going to the place in Paris, but not finding any one at home at the time . . . The copy of the Picabia book i found at the Schwarz indie bookstore (yet t= o check library) is shrink wrapped, so only had the opportunity to peruse the prose stylings of the blurbographers, including of course Jerome Rothenberg= , who sent his to this list. The others are Charles Bernstein, Marjorie Perloff & David Antin. If one includes Barry's use of Silliman's "torque" in his review and Rothenberg's Novalis quote that "Language is Delphi," the implication is that Picabia is a sort of proto-Language poet. Or even an honorary member--"one of our contemporaries." This brings up some interesting questions about the nature of the perceptions of the productions of time when examined through lenses groun= d and polished to the present's specifications. I am looking forward to reading the book to see--or read Picabia's Collected works to find--if he anywhere writes out various ideas of his own about the techniques he is employing which Barry uses the word "torgue" for. An interesting effect of using this word is that, rather than giving the impression that Picabia's work long ago did what is for some time now claimed to be the provenance uniquely of American poetry, it instead give= s the impression that Picabia's work is being turned retrospectively into a branch of Language Poetry by virtue of this assocaition. All of the blurbs keep saying that Picabia is "one of our contemporaries". From another poin= t of view would not this indicate in fact how reactionary the present is that it is only now realizing that things of sixty to a nearly a hundred years ago are "our contemporaries"? If one reads Hans Richter's 1963 Dada Art and Anti-Art or Abstract Expressionist painter Robert Motherwell's great anthology originally issue= d in the 1950's The Dada Painters and Poets, Dada poetry is treated very seriously for American readers. ( Richter notes at one point having Walter Benjamin translate a Picabia poem for a journal that he edited.) The great Japanese poet Shinkichi Takahashi, known in English for his volumes of Zen poetry and writings, was Japan's first Dadaist, wrote and published Dada poetry and got himself arrested for Dada activities.The influence of Dada i= n his Zen poetry is very strong. (There is a very fascinating book by a Korean scholar on Tzara and Takahashi.) The fact of the matter is that poetry of the Dadaists has played a huge rol= e around the world for a very long time--the works of Tzara, Hausmann, Picabia, Schwitters and a poet as yet far too little known in the USA--the artist Hans (Jean) Arp, who wrote in both French and German. Dada also produced a vast body of Visual Poetry in every one of its locations globall= y and in New York, Picabia was closely associated with Stieglitz. (His journal 391 alludes to Steiglitz's 291.) W C Williams hung out with the NY= C Dada crowd (and was particularly perturbed by the Baroness--herself a poet of note). Williams on the final pages of Spring and All includes a critiqu= e of Zaum, very far in advance of its much later "discovery" in the USA of th= e late 20th century. A great deal of the traditions which grew out of Dada and the Futurisms have been for the most part marginalized in American poetry, and when admitted into it, as with the example of Picabia, seen through a very particular lens, in order in a sense to "torque" it into "the American Tree." One might say that this is the imperialist aspect of American thought, that this being the land of invention, of course all things have their true origin here, and if not, then they can be very quickly subsumed into the narrative of the American Dream, Manifest Destiny and be included in some antholgies alongside American "masters." Fellini said of his Satyricon: "It is a science fiction film set in the past." This is an excellent way to describe some of the possibilities opened up in examining this way of thinking. In the tape-essay "Renga and the new Sentence," Tosa Motokiyu, Ojiu Norinaga and Okura Kyojin discuss and demonstrate that Silliman's "New Sentence" has actually been present and functioning for four centuries in Japanese Renga, which in its 20th century experimentations has moved even further than its American counterpart, especially in concerns with single author ownership of texts, an ideological construction firmly embedded in the "private enterprise" emphasis of American capitalism. The tape-essay both undercuts the "originality" of the New Sentence and at the same time lends a kind of added stature to it by virtue of its being joined with a tradition it was unaware of. It can still, in a way, lay claim to being something of "an American original" by virtue of this happenstance, and hence underscore the prescience of its author. In a funny way, a person could even "torque" the situation and claim that the American is revealing to the Japanese what they did not know that they had been doing all along, just as poor Picabia never knew at all what he was up to, and now "we" do. At the time (1992) this tape-essay appeared in Aerial, the three discussants were known as the translator-editors of the Japanese poet Araki Yasusda. Today, Yasusada having emerged as the fiction he "really" is, Motokiyu is the pseudonym of the late person averred to be the "author." Who the other two discussants "really" are--or-were--or will be--as with Motokiyu, becomes unmoored from single authorship identity--and drifts into the Poe-eque regions hovering between the living and the dead, floating among the Real and the Unreal, among identities actual, pseudonymous and anonymous, ghost written and posthumous. These multiplicities of hyper authors can be understood I think not only as a critique of "authorship" and "authority," but of reading as well. Note again the authors chosen to write the blurbs introducing Picabia and mentioned in the review. Reading these names and what they write and are (presumed to be) associated with in the reader's mind, one is guided already into a certain way of reading Picabia, a frame within which to view his techniques and formal qualities. Already the poet is being "set up" fo= r a certain kind of reception and as it were being taken possesion of--"one o= f OUR contemporaries." That a critique of authorship leads to one of reading is one of the myriad fascinating ideas put forth in Borges' story "Pierre Menard." The story opens with a critique of a catalogue of the works of Menard, leading to the discussion of his most important but missing text, his exact, yet superior, word for word writing of a few chapters of Don Quixote. Menard's labors are immense, his drafts thousands of torn up pages. Yet the little he produces, while seemingly the futile word for word reproduction of the original. takes on added qualities not possesed by Cervantes' text. Demonstrating how greatly the text written by Menard differs from that of Cervantes, Borges' narrator quotes a passage which he says is "a mere rhetorical eulogy" by "the ingenious layman" Cervantes, but, when written by Menard, coming after William James in time, "does not define history a= s an investigation of reality, but its origin," and whose "final clauses are shamelessly pragmatic." Borges' narrator also notes the contrast ins styles between the 20the century Frenchman writing in 17th century Spanish (it "suffers a certain affectation") and that of the 17th Century Spaniard "who handles easily the ordinary Spanish of his time." In short, what might at first have appeared to be a very confinin= g exercise opens instead on a radically new adventure. "Menard (perhaps without wishing to) has enriched, by means of a new technique, the hesitant and rudimentary art of reading: the technique, wit= h its infinite applications, urges us to run through the Odyssey as if it wer= e written after the Aeneid . . . .This technique would fill the dullest of books with adventure. Would not the attributing of The Imitation of Christ to Louis-Ferdinand Celine or James Joyce be a sufficient renovation of its tenuous spiritual counsels?" In this way, one can claim that Picabia is really "one of us"--becaus= e he seems to fit in with dicta of the time by "one of us." (That is, if we read him via torque.) Yet what this does is "fill the dullest of books with adventure"--that is, the dull book of all the vast decades and countries of poets who have been studiously ignored , and when "discovered," are found t= o be surprisingly like what "we" have known about al the time. "Torque" is an example of this. I recall reading an old essay of Bernstein's in which he also uses a car associated word--"souped up" for a somewhat similar purpose, of adding power to a word, a phrase, a line, sentence, etc. This kind of "gear head" talk fits in with the manly phras= e "muscular prose" which crops up so very often among American male writers. (Including Pound and Bernstein.) It also follows in a line of American poets who made analogies of writing and driving--Creeley in the Introductio= n to Naked Poetry, Kerouac ("Writing is silent meditation going a 100 miles per hour," and Neal Cassady as the ultimate torquer), and W.C. Williams, halting his car at the train crossing and using the time to write what he i= s seingo n his doctor's rounds. Yet the origin of the automotive fetish is to be found in the firs= t manifesto of modernism, Marinetti's 1909 "Founding and Manifesto of Futurism." Amazingly enough, Marinetti's machine is not simply a mechanica= l device, but also the predatory machine par excellence, the celebrated companion of Lautreamont's Maldoror and haunter of Hollywood beaches: "They thought it (the car) was dead, my beautiful shark, but a caress from me was enough to revive it: and there it was, alive again, running on its powerful fins!." (Marinetti in 1909 by means of Futurist speeds seeing already the fins of Fifties American cars driven at Cassady warp speeds--) Reading of Picabia's later work in which he is doing his reworkings of Nietzsche's texts--is he not moving into the realms of Borges' Menard, o= f Motokiyu's Yasusada and friends in the 1930's writing 1980's American poetr= y in a tradition already four hundred years old, and claimed to be specifically influenced by a Jack Spicer then aged 12? In early twentieth century western modernism there is the search for an "outside" to contact for an influx of the "other," of the "new," of the "unknown,." Kandinsky turned to the study of the art of children Picasso and others to the art of Africa, to the incorporation of outside elements into a painting and poem by means of collage, the importing of techniques and effects from telegraph, radio, cinema, x-rays, photogrpahy, aerial photography. The shapes and sizes of post cards became elements in structuring poems such as Apollinaire's calligrammes. The extreme brevity of Ungaretti's poetry written in between gun fire and artillery blasts. Th= e rapid disintegration of language from Futurist shatteings of syntax and abandonment of punctuations to the chance drawings of words from a hat of Dada. And from there to using the letter as an element (Hausmann, Schwitters). Kruchonyhk turned to the Pentcoastal speaking in tongues for inspiration in the founding of Zaum. And after Prinzhorn's work on The Art of the Mentally Ill appeared in 1922, there are the first importings of th= e works ft the clinical "outsider," into serious consideration in art and poetry. By contrast, one does not find such a turning in most American poetr= y to an outside. It's very interesting that Gertrude Stein's example has attained such a (forgive me) huge presence in American poetics,as some aspects of her work exemplify a turning to an extreme focus on a private language in a privatized sphere, where the Author in a sense reigns supreme= . I don't recall in which book, but Stein remarks that one of the reasons she lived in Paris was that this way she would not be hearing daily the english language. (Well--what about Alice and all the visitors?) Wha= t she meant was that to be in an environment where English was seldom and selectively heard, in her writing the only voice she really was hearing was her own. It is not that speech and voice vanish--she did write palys and operas after all--it is that writing can be purified of any sounds other than what she is able to have complete control of through this intense listening only to oneself. The privateness of language becomes in many works the "subject" so to speak--it is both the subject that writes and the subject of which it writes. The extreme density of a text like "Stanzas in Meditation," for example, is a kind of collapse of matter on its way to being something approaching a black hole. The private and its privatization of a literary landscape, a geography, a history, create a topology of seemingly impenetrable surfaces. The "isolationism" associated with many traditions of American thought manifests as this outward opacity of an extremely self-involved private language. This is only one aspect of Stein's writing, to be sure, but is one tha= t has a lot of influence and cachet. In a way, it is in the tradition of a Whitman, a "Song of Myself" and (my) " "Body Electric" channeled into "material words" rather than worlds, cosmos. The words though, have become the sole property of Gertrude Stein, her private language. It is still, fo= r all the community of friends and celebrity, the American individualist who is the Author and Owner supreme. One reads that Picabia is like a contemporary. Might one not read this the other way round--and think--oh my God!!--we are only now reaching what Picabia was up to many millenia ago? That via isolationism, selective filtering of texts chosen to fit into the narrative which will culminate in "our contemporeinity" being at the apex of all poetic accomplishments in th= e "avant" and "post avant, " that via all this, the world has none the less gone on turning and poets producing astounding works and creating innumerable innovations, smashing all manner of conventions and taboos, while Americans have been busy with imperial Sentences of Death, Torture, Security, Surveillance, Ethnic Cleansing and other favorite activities with one hand and "radical" or "conservative" poetry debates on the other? For example, following Picabia's example, one could use his workin= g with Nietzsche's to turn around and use Picabia's own texts as the lens through which to read, say, "one of our contemporaries." Or employ the method of the fictional Japanese and Menard--to use and old text in the present as though written again now as a means by which to examine works in the present, works in the past. This proliferates the means by which may make use, learn from, investigate with texts not as something to be fitted in to the appointed slot--but something which is welcomed in as a tool for opening up, disordering, creating new arrangements, knocking over the applecart, In short--not to say, ah a welcome addition to the shelf of the history of --the continued reflection of our singular radiance-- Bu aha!--something --uncanny, alive--not yet caged in he zoo or pinned in the insect collection in the poetry sections . . . I don't think anyone mentioned as yet among innovators and makers o= f invective and so forth Archilochus? The inventor or the iambic pentameter, of lyric poetry and of the mighty insult--one so vile that it caused the ma= n it was directed at to kill himself. Also one of the greatest of comic poets. Mercenary solider, bastard son of an important person, poet extraordinaire. Re the quote from Novalis that "Language is Delphi"-- Heraclitus writes: "The One whose Oracle is at Delphi neither speaks nor conceals but give signs." Signs may be birds, rainbows, strange beings, a weird object. For Heraclitus it would seem that the Oracle does not use language. This is close to the understanding of "The Tao that can be named is not the Tao." And also from Heraclitus: "One cannot hide from that which never sets." This paradoxical aspect is examined in the Yasusada book Doubled Flowering in the footnotes re "Renga and the New Sentence" and also in the Borges story "Pierre Menard": You're right > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:32:59 -0700 > > From: steph484@PACBELL.NET > > Subject: Re: Picabia > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Hi David: I thought it should be a review of the book. I just could not > see the title info on the Nation website. > > > > Hope things are well with you David. > > > > D > > > > David-Baptiste Chirot < davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: Stephen-- > > the review IS of the MIT book > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:35:46 -0700 > > > From: steph484@PACBELL.NET > > > Subject: Re: Picabia > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > Unless I am blind to the mention, Barry, I do not see any mention of > the (new?) MIT of Picabia's writings. Saw it on the Black Oak table this > past weekend. Includes a smattering of his graphic work. A well done book= on > first blush (rush). > > > > > > In any case, nice article - congrats. > > > > > > Stephen Vincent > > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > Barry Schwabsky wrote:Members of this list may be interested in my > piece on the poetry of Francis Picabia, in the current issue of The Natio= n: > http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. > Get it now. > > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL1= 00626971033 > > > ------------------------------ > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare= ! > Try now! > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:25:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Issue #1 of Mrs. Maybe Now Available In-Reply-To: <378192.36974.qm@web52510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed the name to your mag is pure delight.. ~mIEKAL On Oct 24, 2007, at 11:44 AM, lauren levin wrote: > Mrs Maybe #1 is now available. > It includes poems written by: > > > > Jessica Savitz, Kyle Kaufman, Avery Burns,Megan Breiseth, > Catherine Theis, Stephanie Young, Scott Inguito, Lauren Levin, > Julie Choffel, Graham Foust > > > , Steve Kramp, Jared Stanley, Aaron McCollough > , Marisa Libbon, Sandra Lim and Tyrone Williams, plus a > Robert Duncan top ten list from Lisa Jarnot, with cover art by > George Chen. > > > > > Copies of the magazine are available for seven dollars postage paid. > Please email us (mrs.maybe@gmail.com) or visit our website, > > mrs-maybe.com for more information. > > If you live in the Bay Area, please come to our reading at > > Canessa Park Gallery in San Francisco > on November 11th, a Sunday, 3pm. > > > Thanks, > > Lauren Levin & Jared Stanley, Editors > Mrs Maybe, a Journal of Skeptical Occultism > "Stop seeing things and let the scene begin." > > > > > mrs-maybe.com > "The word is the first stereotype." Isidore Isou, 1947. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:28:33 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new(ish) on rob's clever blog Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT new(ish) on rob's clever blog -- [ottawa] festival notes: october -- The Peter F. Yacht Club, issue #8 (the Edmonton issue) ; reading, regatta, launch -- [ottawa] festival notes: october -- [ottawa] festival notes: october -- Thomas Wharton's Salamander -- enrichedbreadartists 951 gladstone avenue 613-729-7632 www.artengine.ca/eba -- 12 or 20 questions: with John Lavery -- the past few days; readings in edmonton -- 12 or 20 questions: with derek beaulieu -- The Essential George Johnston -- The Peter F Yacht Club #8; Edited & compiled & typeset & paid for by rob mclennan; October 2007 (Edmonton issue) -- Sounding Differences: Conversations with Seventeen Canadian Women Writers by Janice Williamson -- some (but not all) upcoming events: -- Edmonton: (some of) the past few days -- 12 or 20 questions: with Steven Ross Smith -- review of Kate Greenstreet's Rushes (above/ground press, 2007) by Noah Eli Gordon -- sex at thirty-eight: letters to unfinished g. by rob mclennan -- SUNBURST AWARD ANNOUNCES 2007 WINNER OF ITS $1,000 LITERARY PRIZE -- some brief poetry (book) reviews (1. Christopher Janke's Structure of the Embryonic Rat Brain, 2. Jonathon Wilckes pornograph, 3. Nicole Brossards Notebook of Roses and Civilization, trans. by Robert Majzels and Erin Moure, 4. Sheila E. Murphys The Case of the Lost Objective (Case), 5. Noah Eli Gordons Novel Pictorial Noise) -- A Long Continual Argument: The Selected Poems of John Newlove, edited by Robert McTavish with an afterword by Jeff Derksen, published by Chaudiere Books -- above/ground press -- Sarah Langs The Work of Days -- 12 or 20 questions: with Christine Stewart -- Report: The (second annual) Edmonton Poetry Festival www.robmclennan.blogspot.com + some other new things at the alberta, writing blog www.albertawriting.blogspot.com + some other new things at ottawa poetry newsletter, www.ottawapoetry.blogspot.com + some other other new things at the Chaudiere Books blog, www.chaudierebooks.blogspot.com -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:37:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: See Hear Jake Berry Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dear Poetics Listers, See hear a Jake Berry music video: A Thousand Years - Jake Berry, song and images http://medialab.ifc.com/film_detail.jsp?film_id=3D5940 See hear a Jake Berry poetry film: http://medialab.ifc.com/film_detail.jsp?film_id=3D5938 Know thyself. Or else, short of that, know the American Underground. Posted by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino e=B7 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:24:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <471F61EF.8050906@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pierre Joris has done serious scholarship. i agree: "who knows what many of us"... Maria Damon wrote: can you elaborate on what you find unfair abt rorty's assessment? it seems to give him his due, and at the same time point out the obvious. not every brilliant person is also a model of political courage, and i find it actually reassuring and somewhat refreshing to have that pointed out. who knows what many of us would do in the same situation, but let's tell it like it is. steve russell wrote: > i checked out the Der Spiegel interview after reading your post. he's questioned on both matters. his answer to the rector's address isn't very convincing. on Husserl, i believe him. he calls his treatment of Husser "a human error" and goes on to state that he sent Husserl an apology. i suppose there's no point in trying to defend his blunders. i simply think the totality of his life should be kept in perspective. Shortly before Richard Rorty died, he wrote (I'm paraphrasing), Heidegger was the best Philosopher of the 20th century, but a political coward. I'm not so sure that's fair. > > > > ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: yes, that is a beautiful book > > and, well . . . he also suppressed the dedication to Husserl of his most famous > book when that became inconvenient during the Nazi era -- and the infamous > rector's address is infamous for good reason -- > > all of which simply means that we should keep reading him for all that we can > learn -- including the humbling lessons of his mast hateful moments -- > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 09:55 AM, steve russell > wrote: > > >> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a >> beautiful book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the >> turning." He no longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it >> "thinking." Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's >> dialogue with the world. >> >> As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious of >> modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for refusing to >> censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his lover at one >> time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent of racial >> theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by political >> bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & >> thinkers. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:14:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Fwd: Will Alexander MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Forwarded from Elio Weinberger: As you may have heard, Will Alexander is quite ill with cancer and is undergoing chemotherapy. He's spent his life largely off the poetry grid, taking on odd jobs, and has no financial support or, needless to say, health insurance. The San Francisco organization Poets in Need is coordinating efforts to raise money for him. You can make a (tax-deductible) contribution to them, earmarked for Will, and send it to: Poets in Need PO Box 5411 Berkeley CA 94705 For those around New York, there will be a benefit reading for Will at the Bowery Poetry Club, Thursday November 1, 6-8 pm (readers to be announced). Many thanks--- Eliot [Please feel free to forward this letter on...] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:53:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Grant Jenkins Subject: Bookstore list link correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, I gave the wrong link for my updated bookstore list: Grant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:04:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Reading in Los Angeles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Smell Last Sunday of the Month Reading Series, featuring Dolores Dorantes Patrick Durgin Jen Hofer Sunday, October 28, 2007 6:30 247 Main Street (downtown), Los Angeles, CA, $5.00 Patrick F. Durgin's poetry appears in numerous journals, including Aufgabe, Chicago Review, and the anthology Bay Poetics (ed. Stephanie Young). His books include a collaborative project with Jen Hofer entitled The Route (Atelos, 2007), a collection of Imitation Poems (Atticus/Finch, 2007), Sorter (Duration Press, 2001), Pundits Scribes Pupils (Potes & Poets, 1998), and the artist's book Color Music (Cuneiform Press, 2002). Editor and publisher of Kenning Editions and teaches literature and writing at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. He is currently at work on a book of poetics/criticism. Jen Hofer's recent publications include lip wolf, a translation of Laura Solórzano¹s lobo de labio (Action Books, 2007), Sin puertas visibles: An Anthology of Contemporary Poetry by Mexican Women (University of Pittsburgh Press and Ediciones Sin Nombre, 2003) and slide rule (subpress, 2002). Her next books will be a translation of two books by Dolores Dorantes (co-publication of Counterpath and Kenning Editions, 2007), The Route, an epistolary and poetic collaboration with Patrick Durgin (Atelos, 2007), Laws (Dusie, 2008), and a book-length series of anti-war-poem-manifestos, titled one (Palm Press, 2008). Her poems and translations can be found in recent issues of 1913, Aufgabe, Black Clock, Bomb, and Primary Writing. Jen lives in Los Angeles, where she teaches poetics at CalArts and works as an interpreter in the County Courts. She is a member of the Little Fakers collective which creates and produces Sunset Chronicles, a neighborhood-based serial episodic drama populated entirely by hand-made marionettes inhabiting lost, abandoned and ghost spaces in Los Angeles (www.sunsetchronicles.com < http://www.sunsetchronicles.com/> ). Dolores Dorantes was born in Córdoba, Veracruz in 1973. Her most recent books include SexoPUROsexoVELOZ (Cuadernos del filodecaballo, 2002), Para Bernardo: un eco (MUB editoraz, 2000) and Poemas para niños (Ediciones El Tucán de Virginia, 1999). She is a founding editor of Editorial Frugal, which counts among its activities publication of the monthly broadside series Hoja Frugal, printed in editions of 4000 and distributed free throughout Mexico. Translations of her poems into English have been published in the anthology Sin puertas visibles ( ed.and trans. Jen Hofer, University of Pittsburgh and Ediciones Sin Nombre, 2003), in the Seeing Eye chapbook PUREsexSWIFTsex (also translated by Jen Hofer), and in the journals Aufgabe and kenning. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:37:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: Will Alexander In-Reply-To: <39ee88420710241508u255ce00v43cda3c3b1885919@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline from Eliot Weinberger via Kent Johnson: As you may have heard, Will Alexander is quite ill with cancer and is undergoing chemotherapy. He's spent his life largely off the poetry grid, taking on odd jobs, and has no financial support or, needless to say, health insurance. The San Francisco organization Poets in Need is coordinating efforts to raise money for him. You can make a (tax-deductible) contribution to them, earmarked for Will, and send it to: Poets in Need PO Box 5411 Berkeley CA 94705 For those around New York, there will be a benefit reading for Will at the Bowery Poetry Club, Thursday November 1, 6-8 pm (readers to be announced). Many thanks--- Eliot [Please feel free to forward this letter on...] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:40:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Subject: the most boring writer alive at the British Library MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The British Library, The Eccles Centre for American Studies and information as material invite you to a special screening of: sucking on words: Kenneth Goldsmith A film by Simon Morris Date: Friday 26 October Time: 6pm Doors open. 6.30pm: London film premiere of 'sucking on words' Venue: The British Library Conference Centre auditorium, The British Library, 96 Euston Road, London, NW1 2DB 6.30pm London film premiere of sucking on words Tickets are by reservation only. For your free tickets e-mail: simon@informationasmaterial.com We will reserve you a place at the screening and e-mail you a booking confirmation slip. ********** 'sucking on words' will be screened at the following venues: Friday 26 October 2007 The British Library, London Saturday 27 October 2007 Shandy Hall, The Laurence Sterne Trust, Coxwold, North Yorkshire Sunday November 4 2007 The Oslo International Poetry Festival Spring 2008 New York City (venue TBC) ***** "If every word spoken in New York City daily were somehow to materialize as a snowflake, each day there would be a blizzard." The words of Kenneth Goldsmith, described by Juliana Spahr as 'the world's leading conceptual poet', and by himself as 'the most boring writer that has ever lived'. His ideas are being brought to the screen by artist and director Simon Morris in a film to premiere at the British Library in London on Friday 26th October. Christian Bök, one of Canada's leading poets and the winner of the 2002 Griffin poetry prize, said: "Goldsmith is our James Joyce for the 21st century." 'sucking on words' introduces 8000 of those daily words - a flurry of excitement as the climates of conflict and admiration come together around Goldsmith's pioneering conceptual poetics. Shot on location in Manhattan in February this year, 'sucking on words' features interviews with the leading critics and poets Bruce Andrews, Barbara Cole, and Robert Fitterman. Goldsmith says: "I'm more interested in knowing language better in the way Warhol was knowing image better by simply turning the camera on to it and letting it run." And Simon Morris adds: "Goldsmith is turning the literary world on its head by encouraging plagiarism and suggesting writers throw away existing notions of intellectual property." As Goldsmith says: "We don't need the new sentence, the old sentence re-framed is good enough." Conceptual writing is the poetics of the moment. It fuses avant-garde impulses of the twentieth century with technologies of the present. The material morphs between the web and the printed page. It draws attention to the materiality of the word and the conceptual nature of this type of literature - the writing is the idea and the idea is the writing. The lively conversations featured in the film are an ideal introduction to Goldsmith's witty and provocative works, already regarded as hallmarks of 21st century literature. In addition to debate and commentary, the film showcases readings from some of his most notorious books: No.111 (found phrases ending in an 'r' rhyme and filtered alphabetically by syllable count); Soliloquy (a transcription of every word Goldsmith spoke for a week); Day (a retyping of one day's New York Times); Traffic (a day's worth of hourly traffic bulletins); and The Weather (a year's worth of of radio weather bulletins). In November 'sucking on words' will have its Scandinavian premiere at the Oslo International Festival of Poetry. A screening is also taking place at Shandy Hall, Coxwold, near York, on Saturday 27th October, supported by the Laurence Sterne Trust where Goldsmith will be staying as poet-in-residence. Simon Morris says: "Oslo will provide us with the opportunity to bring the film to a much wider European audience, whereas Shandy Hall was where Laurence Sterne wrote his most celebrated work, The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman. It's fitting that one of the most famous contemporary avant-garde poets is to stay in the home of one of the 18th century's most experimental writers." sucking on words Filmed on location in New York City, February, 2007 Critical Commentary: Bruce Andrews, Barbara Cole, Robert Fitterman Film & Lighting: Fiona Biggiero, Jerome Harmann-Hardeman Film editor: Christine Morris Sound: Jarrod Fowler Original musical score: Rob Lavers Design: Peter McGrath PAL copies of the DVD will be available at the screening, priced at £19.95 For more information, contact Simon Morris on 01904 338 641 or Sarah Smelik on 0773 278 www.informationasmaterial.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:37:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: [Fwd: Petition for cipM - Please forward this message - URGENT!!!] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *The cipm is currently experiencing serious budget and locale problems with the Department of Culture-Marseille. Therefore, we would like to ask all users, authors and people familiar with our activity and diffusion of contemporary poetry since 1989 to please help us out by consulting the petition on the cipm's website. For all of you who are in a rush, the petition can be signed directly on line http://www.confettis.org/phpPETITION/ _http://www.cipmarseille.com/evenement_fiche.php?id=610 _* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:40:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Arborglyphs Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Arborglyphs are carvings on trees that record names, dates, images, =20 even poetry and prose. Beech, birch and aspen have traditionally been =20= the trees of choice, preferred by most =93artists=94. These species=92 =20= smooth bark and light color makes a ready-made canvas for carving. =20 Some consider arborglyphs to be a legitimate form of artistic =20 expression and honor trees with these carvings. Others think it is =20 just so much graphitti and another form of tree defacement. http://forestry.about.com/od/foresthistory1/a/arborglyph.htm Historian Joxe Mallea-Olaetxe has spent over a decade recording and =20 and studying these arborglyphs, which were largely the work of Basque =20= sheepherders. This website features many of these carvings. http://basque.unr.edu/trees/default.htm Sheepherders of Northern Nevada http://www.library.unr.edu/sheepherders/arborglyphs.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:04:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: Re. Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Steve Russell, =20 Heidegger's book Poetry, Language, Thought has been for me a pivotal and = enthralling, revelatory work that I have been reading and teaching for = some decades now, and I feel that Heidegger is an intellectual giant and = a gorgeous writer. But I have to say that he was a Nazi, and he did some = very, very ugly, cowardly things-which just tells us that human beings = are not to be simplified. Also, not all of that book is "late Heidegger" = as you suggest; to be sure, "The Origin of the Work of Art" was written = early in his career and then, I believe, revised repeatedly over a large = number of years, but the basic ideas in the essay are there in the first = published version. Anyway, I urge you to check out a recent essay on H = in Jacket 32, "Cutting Poets to Size - Heidegger, H=F6lderlin, Rilke," = written by Anthony Stephens, someone who seems to be quite knowledgeable = and clear-eyed about this great philosopher: = http://jacketmagazine.com/00/home.shtml. =20 Burt Kimmelman =20 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:55:08 -0700 From: steve russell Subject: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a beautiful = book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He no = longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it "thinking." = Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue with = the world. =20 As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious = of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for = refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, = his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way = a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his = being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among major = 20th century artist & thinkers.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:15:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Ariel Malka's video text scapes MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit http://chronotext.org/scriptorium/video http://chronotext.org/video http://chronotext.org Ariel Malka's videos of his generated textual scapes. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 05:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: clwnwr@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Heman Subject: 4th BIG CLWN WR EVENT - November 8th @ the SAFE-T GALLERY in DUMBO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 4th Big CLWN WR Reading Thursday, November 8, 2007 7:00 - 10:00 FREE ADMISSION!!! SAFE-T-GALLERY 111 Front Street, DUMBO, Brooklyn Gallery 214 featuring John M. Bennett Craig Czury & Elizabeth Smith with special guests Sheila E. Murphy Adriana Scopino Jack Tricarico Nathan Whiting Liza Wolsky & Matvei Yankelevich hosted by Bob Heman editor of CLWN WR since 1971 Take the F train to York Street, walk downhill to Front and turn left under the Manhattan Bridge. For more information, maps, and directions from other subway lines please check the Gallery website at http://www.safetgallery.com Bob Heman clwnwr@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:23:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: or MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed or gateway to hell where we work like slaves you can predict how the gateway behaves the driver's a demon, and violent's the road we're hurtling down it, god damn the load or gateway to hell where my baby's gone she's left me a baby, let's get it on i'll kill the damn bastard, give it a blow won't give it a name, just give it a go or gateway to hell is where i belong i'm burning in brooklyn, screaming this song can't poem worth a damn, i've blinded my eyes this is my will and these are my cries http://www.asondheim.org/holll.mp4 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:06:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Re. Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <04ef01c816ab$72bf2f90$1a12eb80@Burt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks. I appreciate the info on Anthony Stephens. Although I didn't deliberately intend my post to be instructional ( not consciously ), it's become that. I think I was looking for others to help illuminate the Heidegger enigma. They have. Also, I'm glad I was able to voice my enthusiasm for Poetry Language Thought. Thumbs up for buffalo/edu. Burt Kimmelman wrote: Dear Steve Russell, Heidegger's book Poetry, Language, Thought has been for me a pivotal and enthralling, revelatory work that I have been reading and teaching for some decades now, and I feel that Heidegger is an intellectual giant and a gorgeous writer. But I have to say that he was a Nazi, and he did some very, very ugly, cowardly things-which just tells us that human beings are not to be simplified. Also, not all of that book is "late Heidegger" as you suggest; to be sure, "The Origin of the Work of Art" was written early in his career and then, I believe, revised repeatedly over a large number of years, but the basic ideas in the essay are there in the first published version. Anyway, I urge you to check out a recent essay on H in Jacket 32, "Cutting Poets to Size - Heidegger, Hölderlin, Rilke," written by Anthony Stephens, someone who seems to be quite knowledgeable and clear-eyed about this great philosopher: http://jacketmagazine.com/00/home.shtml. Burt Kimmelman Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:55:08 -0700 From: steve russell Subject: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a beautiful book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He no longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it "thinking." Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue with the world. As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & thinkers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:17:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Majzels Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <815941.98362.qm@web50210.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed One way to appreciate Heidegger is perhaps to read him through =20 Emmanuel Levinas, who first introduced Heidegger to France, and then =20 thought through a critique of Heidegger's thought. Clearly, to divorce Heidegger's politics from his philosophy is =20 impossible, not to say dangerous. Nor does picking and choosing =20 what's "useful" in Heidegger entirely solve the problem. What L=E9vinas manages to do, I think, is to identify the essentialism =20= in Heidegger that makes the fascist turn possible, not to mention the =20= turning away from the face of the other, the plight of his =20 colleague's in Freiburg for example. And of course, Levinas does this =20= without simplistic rejection. He makes it possible to continue =20 thinking after Heidegger. (Also a few hours with Paul Celan's poems =20 (in the original German or the Pierre Joris translations) is a =20 helpful counterpoint.) Robert Majzels www.apikorossleuth.com On 24-Oct-07, at 9:22 AM, Sam Truitt wrote: > Yes, I agree--need to drink with a long spoon - the same as we =20 > measure Dante, as well posited - and I think underlying it is a =20 > standards' issue viz. we expect better behavior from a philosopher =20 > than a poet, oddly - and I don't know why - particularly for me in =20 > light of the fact I hold poets, not philosophers, must become kings =20= > if our beings are to run on real time. But it is of a piece - as =20 > Joyce said re. Yeats (blue shirt), "show me the man" - and =20 > Heidegger conveyed, laid out, a way - held up a light - but seeing =20 > such I think we need to consider the shape of the lantern - too =20 > with Eliot and Pound among others of era. Williams on the other =20 > hand called it, of course. Again, I think we take what we can use. > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Sam Truitt's "Days" > (improvisational AV > strip each day of 2007) > www.youtube.com/profile?user=3DSamtruitt > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Nicholas Karavatos > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:56:35 AM > Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger > > > Damn right we should be critical of what we read, underlying > assumptions, etc. > > But when a discussion of this type pops up, I always end up wondering, > "Why aren't we just as critical of so-called Communist [poets] as we > are of the so-called Fascists?" > > Or is that a false anology? > > It's just I hear "s/he was personally a fascist" dismissively hung > around the necks of [poets and philosphers], but I never hear similar > conclusive judgements about writers of any other socio-political =20 > stance. Or > maybe I'm not listening. > > (Hey, was Dante an "Islamophobe"? He shoved Mohammed into Hell as a > "schismatic" in the *Inferno*, didn't he? Does that make Dante a > "Christofascist"?) > > When we read [poets, philosophers, historians] from bygone eras, > perhaps the ancient world, do we consider what their socio-political > positions were for any reason other than to delve into the context =20= > of their > time? > > I don't think we use the same readerly objectivity on writers since =20= > the > end of the 19 century. Now it's personal. > > Generally speaking, as I've travelled outside The West I've been > astonished at how many people personally consider classism, =20 > racism, and > sexism to be the normal, natural order of the world and any arguments > against such as contrary to human nature. I have noticed much of =20 > the world > still thinks these socio-political stances are correct. > > I wonder if any great writers today from any of these countries > subscribe to any of these world views? If they do, should I =20 > multiculturally > accept them, or ideologically denounce them, or both, or niether? > > I don't know. > > Yeah, yeah - this is the same old debate of whether an [artist's] > personal behavior or political views should affect our =20 > relationship with > their [artistic] activity. > > > > Nicholas Karavatos > Dept of Language & Literature > American University of Sharjah > PO Box 26666 > Sharjah > United Arab Emirates > >> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:13:30 -0700 >> From: samtruitt@YAHOO.COM >> Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Brother, You need to look more closely >> under the Heidegger's hood - seductive >> writing - compelling - but he was a nazi >> as evidenced in his writing of '30s >> including in his turn re. what happened >> with CONTRIBUTION TO PHILOSOPHY, which >> while thoroughly deep is laced with >> anti-semitisms. He's a mixed bag - take >> from it what you can that's useful. >> >> Best as ever, >> Sam >> --- steve russell wrote: >> >>> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a > beautiful >>> book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He > no >>> longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it > "thinking." >>> Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue > with >>> the world. >>> >>> As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply > suspicious >>> of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for >>> refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah > Arent, >>> his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no > way >>> a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as > his >>> being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among > major >>> 20th century artist & thinkers. >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >> >> >> _____________________________________________________________ >> >> Sam Truitt's "Days" >> (improvisational AV >> strip each day of 2007) >> www.youtube.com/profile?user=3DSamtruitt >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word > scramble challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?=20 > icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 02:00:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally disabled; two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear me. Abstraction creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of devices). Take the devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, this is easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so as not to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: relevance. Why are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness over, what?, badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more than to create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're smart and fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart or very fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside one's community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic derivation from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), new sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, yeah?)--- yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily (summarily?) oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of one's community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the soulless is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's what you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to make adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the original artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of outsiders looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is legitimately called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:11:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: two readings in NYC this weekend. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Betsy Andrews, Jennifer Bartlett, Jim Stewart read FRIDAY, OCTOBER 26, 7 PM PETE'S CANDY STORE 709 Lorimer Street - Williamsburg, Brooklyn (btw Richardson and Frost Sts.) (718) 302 - 3770 www.petescandystore.com Take the L to Lorimer or the G to Metropolitan Betsy Andrews, Susan Tichy, Michael Heller read SATURDAY, OCTOBER 27, 3 PM THE EAR INN 326 Spring Street (west of Greenwich Street) New York City http://www.mbroder.com/ear_inn/ C/E to Spring Street; 1/9 to Canal Street; N/R to Prince Street __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:01:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between poetry and schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write poetry" kind of way. I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health profession and have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or so. These interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've never used the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do they seem synonymous to me. Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something else I'm missing. Can anyone help me with this? Cheers, Tracey On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally > disabled; > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear me. Abstraction > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of devices). Take > the > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, this is > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so as > not > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: relevance. Why > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness over, > what?, > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more than to > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're smart and > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart or very > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside one's > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic derivation > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), new > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, yeah?)--- > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily (summarily?) > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of one's > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the soulless > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's what > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to make > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the > original > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of outsiders > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is legitimately > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:23:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Nicholson Subject: Re: Arborglyphs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think a letter was missing from that last link: http://www.library.unr.edu/sheepherders/arborglyphs.html On 10/24/07, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Arborglyphs are carvings on trees that record names, dates, images, > even poetry and prose. Beech, birch and aspen have traditionally been > the trees of choice, preferred by most "artists". These species' > smooth bark and light color makes a ready-made canvas for carving. > Some consider arborglyphs to be a legitimate form of artistic > expression and honor trees with these carvings. Others think it is > just so much graphitti and another form of tree defacement. > > http://forestry.about.com/od/foresthistory1/a/arborglyph.htm > > Historian Joxe Mallea-Olaetxe has spent over a decade recording and > and studying these arborglyphs, which were largely the work of Basque > sheepherders. This website features many of these carvings. > > http://basque.unr.edu/trees/default.htm > > Sheepherders of Northern Nevada > http://www.library.unr.edu/sheepherders/arborglyphs.htm > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:47:30 -0700 Reply-To: aklobuca@capcollege.bc.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Klobucar Organization: Capilano College Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <26BFCB41-AE39-4E43-A886-71719EB394A8@ucalgary.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would also recommend Slavoj Zizek's The Ticklish Subject, which also intellectually contextualises Heidegger with respect to broader (and yet perniciously niggling) questions on ontology and western modernity.=20 Dr. Andrew Klobucar Dept. of English Capilano College 604.986.1911 (2426) =20 2055 Purcell Way North Vancouver, BC V7J 3H5 =20 Selling is what selling sells -Joe Strummer -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Robert Majzels Sent: October 25, 2007 6:17 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger One way to appreciate Heidegger is perhaps to read him through =20 Emmanuel Levinas, who first introduced Heidegger to France, and then =20 thought through a critique of Heidegger's thought. Clearly, to divorce Heidegger's politics from his philosophy is =20 impossible, not to say dangerous. Nor does picking and choosing =20 what's "useful" in Heidegger entirely solve the problem. What L=E9vinas manages to do, I think, is to identify the essentialism =20 in Heidegger that makes the fascist turn possible, not to mention the =20 turning away from the face of the other, the plight of his =20 colleague's in Freiburg for example. And of course, Levinas does this =20 without simplistic rejection. He makes it possible to continue =20 thinking after Heidegger. (Also a few hours with Paul Celan's poems =20 (in the original German or the Pierre Joris translations) is a =20 helpful counterpoint.) Robert Majzels www.apikorossleuth.com On 24-Oct-07, at 9:22 AM, Sam Truitt wrote: > Yes, I agree--need to drink with a long spoon - the same as we =20 > measure Dante, as well posited - and I think underlying it is a =20 > standards' issue viz. we expect better behavior from a philosopher =20 > than a poet, oddly - and I don't know why - particularly for me in =20 > light of the fact I hold poets, not philosophers, must become kings =20 > if our beings are to run on real time. But it is of a piece - as =20 > Joyce said re. Yeats (blue shirt), "show me the man" - and =20 > Heidegger conveyed, laid out, a way - held up a light - but seeing =20 > such I think we need to consider the shape of the lantern - too =20 > with Eliot and Pound among others of era. Williams on the other =20 > hand called it, of course. Again, I think we take what we can use. > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Sam Truitt's "Days" > (improvisational AV > strip each day of 2007) > www.youtube.com/profile?user=3DSamtruitt > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Nicholas Karavatos > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:56:35 AM > Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger > > > Damn right we should be critical of what we read, underlying > assumptions, etc. > > But when a discussion of this type pops up, I always end up wondering, > "Why aren't we just as critical of so-called Communist [poets] as we > are of the so-called Fascists?" > > Or is that a false anology? > > It's just I hear "s/he was personally a fascist" dismissively hung > around the necks of [poets and philosphers], but I never hear similar > conclusive judgements about writers of any other socio-political =20 > stance. Or > maybe I'm not listening. > > (Hey, was Dante an "Islamophobe"? He shoved Mohammed into Hell as a > "schismatic" in the *Inferno*, didn't he? Does that make Dante a > "Christofascist"?) > > When we read [poets, philosophers, historians] from bygone eras, > perhaps the ancient world, do we consider what their socio-political > positions were for any reason other than to delve into the context =20 > of their > time? > > I don't think we use the same readerly objectivity on writers since =20 > the > end of the 19 century. Now it's personal. > > Generally speaking, as I've travelled outside The West I've been > astonished at how many people personally consider classism, =20 > racism, and > sexism to be the normal, natural order of the world and any arguments > against such as contrary to human nature. I have noticed much of =20 > the world > still thinks these socio-political stances are correct. > > I wonder if any great writers today from any of these countries > subscribe to any of these world views? If they do, should I =20 > multiculturally > accept them, or ideologically denounce them, or both, or niether? > > I don't know. > > Yeah, yeah - this is the same old debate of whether an [artist's] > personal behavior or political views should affect our =20 > relationship with > their [artistic] activity. > > > > Nicholas Karavatos > Dept of Language & Literature > American University of Sharjah > PO Box 26666 > Sharjah > United Arab Emirates > >> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:13:30 -0700 >> From: samtruitt@YAHOO.COM >> Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Brother, You need to look more closely >> under the Heidegger's hood - seductive >> writing - compelling - but he was a nazi >> as evidenced in his writing of '30s >> including in his turn re. what happened >> with CONTRIBUTION TO PHILOSOPHY, which >> while thoroughly deep is laced with >> anti-semitisms. He's a mixed bag - take >> from it what you can that's useful. >> >> Best as ever, >> Sam >> --- steve russell wrote: >> >>> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a > beautiful >>> book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He > no >>> longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it > "thinking." >>> Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue > with >>> the world. >>> >>> As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply > suspicious >>> of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for >>> refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah > Arent, >>> his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no > way >>> a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as > his >>> being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among > major >>> 20th century artist & thinkers. >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >> >> >> _____________________________________________________________ >> >> Sam Truitt's "Days" >> (improvisational AV >> strip each day of 2007) >> www.youtube.com/profile?user=3DSamtruitt >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word > scramble challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?=20 > icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:57:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Fri Oct 26 ~ Cynthia Cruz & Karla Kelsey ~ East Village NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Burning Chair Readings want you to give it up for = =0A=0AThe Burning Chair=0AReadings=0A=0Awant you to give it up=0Afor =0A=0A= =0A=0ACynthia Cruz & Karla=0AKelsey=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AFriday, October 26th, 8= PM=0A=0AJimmy=92s No.43 Stage=0A=0A=0A43 East 7th=0AStreet=0A=0A=0ABetween = 2nd&=0A3rd=0A=0A=0ANew York City=0A=0A=0A =0A=0ACynthia Cruz was born in Ge= rmany and raised in Northern=0ACalifornia. Her first book, Ruin, was publis= hed by Alice James Books in=0A2006. Her poems have appeared in the American= Poetry Review, Paris Review,=0ABoston Review, Colorado Review, Denver Quar= terly, and others, and are=0Aanthologized in Isn't it Romantic: 100 Love Po= ems by Younger Poets and The=0AIowa Anthology of New American Poetries. She= is the recipient of several=0Aresidencies to Yaddo and the MacDowell Colon= y. She lives in New York City.=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ABorn = and raised in=0ASouthern California, Karla Kelsey holds degrees from UCLA, = The Iowa Writers=0AWorkshop, and The University of Denver. Her first book, = Knowledge, Forms,=0Athe Aviary won the 2005 Sawtooth Poetry Prize judged by= Carolyn Forch=E9 and=0Awas published in 2006 by Ahsahta Press. Her second = full-length manuscript, Iteration=0ANets, is based in the sonnet form and i= s forthcoming from Ahsahta. Karla is=0Aalso author of the chapbooks Little = Dividing Doors in the Mind (Noemi=0APress, 2005) and Iterations (Pilot Pres= s, forthcoming). Recent poems,=0Aessays, and reviews can be found in the Bo= ston Review, Octopus, Five Fingers=0AReview, Lit, and CAB/NET.=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!?= =0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp:= //mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:11:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Job opening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit * Digital Humanities University of California at Los Angeles College of Letters and Science (California) (date posted: 10/22/2007) http://chronicle.com/jobs/id.php?id=0000530795-01&pg=e ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:13:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Re. Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <04ef01c816ab$72bf2f90$1a12eb80@Burt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A very interesting book is James K. Lyons' Paul Celan and Martin Heidegger: An Unresolved Conversation 1951-1970, which has some new and intriguing information and insights on Celan's poem of their first meeting, "Todnauberg," among much , much else from documents, letters and Celan's notes on the texts of Heidegger's he intently studied. The poet Rene Char, a leader and hero if the French Resistance, went to meet Heidegger in the early 1950's. Heraclitus and Heidegger both have a deep influence in Char's work. Among contemporary American poets, Robert Grenier is a very great admirer of Heidegger's work and has been profoundly influenced by him since the early 1960's. From what little I have read of Heidegger, he is concerned in many works with "What is called thinking" (the title of one of his books)--which entails going back to the pre-Socratics and examining the roots meanings of the Greek word they use. To find "what is called thinking" is to go back to these sources--when and whence it it is first emerging. An especially interesting book in this regard is "Early Greek Thinkers" which consists of four essays, each on a single phrase, two of them from Heraclitus. I recall reading an essay many years ago by Heidegger re poetry which was brilliant, beautiful--and then slowly began to turn into some sort of mysticism re the land, soil, etc and relation with a folk, a people--which since he is a German and with his history immediately one associates with Naziism. Yet it could also be thought of in terms of Nationalism of the mystical kind, or religion, religion related, and ethnic centered kinds which occurs in many countries still today. Wherever this kind of thinking exists, it leads to ethnic cleansing, apartheid, Balkanization,Walls. The question of language in relation with these aspects makes one wonder about the ways language is used in the United States, first to mobilize and justify the genocide of the American Indians, then to actively support a slew of repressive and ethnic cleansing regimes around the world through time to the present. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:14:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <26BFCB41-AE39-4E43-A886-71719EB394A8@ucalgary.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If I'm not mistaken, Pierre Joris posted earlier, or maybe that was a different Pierre. A play, something similar to Michael Frayn's Copenhagen, should be written about Heidegger's meeting with Celan. It's certainly as enigmatic as Heisenberg's last meeting with Bohr. I'll look for the Joris translation. Robert Majzels wrote: One way to appreciate Heidegger is perhaps to read him through Emmanuel Levinas, who first introduced Heidegger to France, and then thought through a critique of Heidegger's thought. Clearly, to divorce Heidegger's politics from his philosophy is impossible, not to say dangerous. Nor does picking and choosing what's "useful" in Heidegger entirely solve the problem. What Lévinas manages to do, I think, is to identify the essentialism in Heidegger that makes the fascist turn possible, not to mention the turning away from the face of the other, the plight of his colleague's in Freiburg for example. And of course, Levinas does this without simplistic rejection. He makes it possible to continue thinking after Heidegger. (Also a few hours with Paul Celan's poems (in the original German or the Pierre Joris translations) is a helpful counterpoint.) Robert Majzels www.apikorossleuth.com On 24-Oct-07, at 9:22 AM, Sam Truitt wrote: > Yes, I agree--need to drink with a long spoon - the same as we > measure Dante, as well posited - and I think underlying it is a > standards' issue viz. we expect better behavior from a philosopher > than a poet, oddly - and I don't know why - particularly for me in > light of the fact I hold poets, not philosophers, must become kings > if our beings are to run on real time. But it is of a piece - as > Joyce said re. Yeats (blue shirt), "show me the man" - and > Heidegger conveyed, laid out, a way - held up a light - but seeing > such I think we need to consider the shape of the lantern - too > with Eliot and Pound among others of era. Williams on the other > hand called it, of course. Again, I think we take what we can use. > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Sam Truitt's "Days" > (improvisational AV > strip each day of 2007) > www.youtube.com/profile?user=Samtruitt > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Nicholas Karavatos > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:56:35 AM > Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger > > > Damn right we should be critical of what we read, underlying > assumptions, etc. > > But when a discussion of this type pops up, I always end up wondering, > "Why aren't we just as critical of so-called Communist [poets] as we > are of the so-called Fascists?" > > Or is that a false anology? > > It's just I hear "s/he was personally a fascist" dismissively hung > around the necks of [poets and philosphers], but I never hear similar > conclusive judgements about writers of any other socio-political > stance. Or > maybe I'm not listening. > > (Hey, was Dante an "Islamophobe"? He shoved Mohammed into Hell as a > "schismatic" in the *Inferno*, didn't he? Does that make Dante a > "Christofascist"?) > > When we read [poets, philosophers, historians] from bygone eras, > perhaps the ancient world, do we consider what their socio-political > positions were for any reason other than to delve into the context > of their > time? > > I don't think we use the same readerly objectivity on writers since > the > end of the 19 century. Now it's personal. > > Generally speaking, as I've travelled outside The West I've been > astonished at how many people personally consider classism, > racism, and > sexism to be the normal, natural order of the world and any arguments > against such as contrary to human nature. I have noticed much of > the world > still thinks these socio-political stances are correct. > > I wonder if any great writers today from any of these countries > subscribe to any of these world views? If they do, should I > multiculturally > accept them, or ideologically denounce them, or both, or niether? > > I don't know. > > Yeah, yeah - this is the same old debate of whether an [artist's] > personal behavior or political views should affect our > relationship with > their [artistic] activity. > > > > Nicholas Karavatos > Dept of Language & Literature > American University of Sharjah > PO Box 26666 > Sharjah > United Arab Emirates > >> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:13:30 -0700 >> From: samtruitt@YAHOO.COM >> Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Brother, You need to look more closely >> under the Heidegger's hood - seductive >> writing - compelling - but he was a nazi >> as evidenced in his writing of '30s >> including in his turn re. what happened >> with CONTRIBUTION TO PHILOSOPHY, which >> while thoroughly deep is laced with >> anti-semitisms. He's a mixed bag - take >> from it what you can that's useful. >> >> Best as ever, >> Sam >> --- steve russell wrote: >> >>> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a > beautiful >>> book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He > no >>> longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it > "thinking." >>> Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue > with >>> the world. >>> >>> As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply > suspicious >>> of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for >>> refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah > Arent, >>> his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no > way >>> a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as > his >>> being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among > major >>> 20th century artist & thinkers. >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >> >> >> _____________________________________________________________ >> >> Sam Truitt's "Days" >> (improvisational AV >> strip each day of 2007) >> www.youtube.com/profile?user=Samtruitt >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word > scramble challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx? > icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Ariel Malka's video text scapes In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit wowowowowowowowowowowowowowow On 10/25/07 1:15 AM, "Jim Andrews" wrote: > http://chronotext.org/scriptorium/video > http://chronotext.org/video > http://chronotext.org > > Ariel Malka's videos of his generated textual scapes. > > ja > http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:17:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Oct 26-28: Chicago's Women's Performance Art Festival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 8th ANNUAL CHICAGO WOMEN'S PERFORMANCE ART FESTIVAL October 26 & 27 at 8pm October 28 at 7:30pm with a different program each night $15 general admission $10 students & seniors at Links Hall 956 Newport Avenue entrance Chicago, IL http://www.linkshall.org Sponsored by the Stockyards Theatre Project http://stockyardstheatreproject.org/wpaf.html Since 1999, Stockyards has avidly promoted talented women playwrights and directors, and has showcased the remarkable and richly imaginative visions of contemporary women. The Women's Performance Art Festival features a full schedule of Chicago artisans performing original works via improv, standup comedy, dance, performance art and much more. "The festival is the purist women's performance event in Chicago." -- Chicago Sun-Times During the weekend, Growing Up Girl: An Anthology of Voices from Marginalized Spaces will be available for viewing and purchasing. This is thanks to Women & Children First, one of the largest feminist bookstores in the country. http://www.girlchildpress.com http://www.womenandchildrenfirst.com OCTOBER 26 Janet Kane, Kelsie Huff, Kendra Stevens, Ashley Cozadd, Carrie Bain, Francesca Peppiatt, Peter Schell, Jennifer Allen, Elmarie McDonald Esser OCTOBER 27 Alison Dornheggen, Gillian N. Humiston, Hollie Himmelman, Cyra K. Polizzi, Katie Rolnick, Angela Latham, Liz Joynt Sandberg, Wendy Froman, Pauline Krupa, Sarah Mott, Megan Cottrell, Mary Hobein, Leslie Moore, Taleshia J. Walker OCTOBER 28 Jennifer Karmin, Liz Joynt Sandberg, Wendy Froman, Pauline Krupa, Sarah Mott, Megan Cottrell, Carole McCurdy, Lori Howard, Janel Palm, Jennifer Gage-Imburgia, Angela Latham, Jeanne Arrigo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:39:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project October/November In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello, These are the events at The Poetry Project for the coming week. Also, scrol= l down for information on the Will Alexander benefit reading taking place at The Bowery Poetry Club on November 1st. Thanks, The Poetry Project Monday, October 29, 8 PM A 65th Birthday Celebration for d.a. levy Come honor the life and work of the late Cleveland poet-publisher who was a= t the vanguard of the mimeo revolution of the sixties. We=B9ll recognize the radical and enduring effect levy left on small press poetry and publishing during his short life with readings of his work and informal discussion. Participants will include Steve Clay, Bob Holman, David Kirschenbaum, Jake Marx and Gary Sullivan, with some special guests, too. This event will be preceded by a screening of Kon Petrochuk=B9s levy biopic if i scratch, if i write at 5:00 p.m. at the Bowery Poetry Club. Co-curated with Boog City. Check our online calendar for more information. Wednesday, October 31, 8 PM Ann Lauterbach & David Trinidad Ann Lauterbach=B9s books include And for Example, On a Stair and If In Time: Selected Poems 1975-2000, all from Penguin. A collection of essays, The Night Sky: Writings on the Poetics of Experience, was published in 2005. Sh= e is the recipient of a Guggenheim Fellowship, and grants from Ingram Merrill and the New York Council for the Arts. In 1993, she received a John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Fellowship. She is the Co-chair of Writing in the Milton Avery Graduate School of the Arts at Bard College. David Trinidad=B9s most recent book of poetry, The Late Show, was published this year by Turtl= e Point Press. His anthology Saints of Hysteria: A Half-Century of Collaborative American Poetry (co-edited with Denise Duhamel and Maureen Seaton) was also published this year by Soft Skull Press. His other books include Plasticville and Phoebe 2002: An Essay in Verse. Trinidad teaches poetry at Columbia College Chicago, where he co-edits the journal Court Green. Friday, November 2, 10 PM Felicia Luna Lemus & Jess Arndt Felicia Luna Lemus is the author of two novels, Like Son (Akashic, 2007) an= d Trace Elements of Random Tea Parties (2003). She teaches writing at The New School and lives in the East Village. Please visit felicialunalemus.com An avid student of old fashioned mixologies, vast piracy, and assorted buggery= , Jess Arndt is attempting to combine the three in her yet to be finished first novel, Shanghaied. Set in Gold Rush San Francisco, the story weaves and staggers through the opium dens, brothels and sailor holes of the Barbary Coast, continuously distracted by the gold-lust and tarts. Having just finished her MFA at Bard College, she trades her time between Brooklyn and a small island off the northwest coast of Washington State. She has mos= t recently been published in Velvet Mafia: Dangerous Queer Fiction, Instant City Journal, Encyclopedia Literary Journal, Bottoms Up! Writing About Sex from Soft Skull Press, and Baby Remember My Name, a new anthology edited by Michelle Tea. She has a short story coming out from Inconvenient Press late= r this fall, in collaboration with visual artist, Xylor Jane. BENEFIT READING FOR WILL ALEXANDER THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1ST, 6-8PM BOWERY POETRY CLUB 308 Bowery / F to 2nd Ave, or 6 to Bleecker $10 suggested donation, more if you can Poet and artist Will Alexander has become seriously ill and has no health insurance. In order to help him defray the cost of treatment his friends will gather and read Will=B9s work as well as poems for Will. JEROME ROTHENBERG TONYA FOSTER JOEL KUSZAI BILL MARSH MARCELLA DURAND TOD THILLEMAN =20 JOHN HIGH RODRIGO TOSCANO ELIOT WEINBERGER BOB PERELMAN=20 ANNE WALDMAN Funds raised will be sent to POETS IN NEED, a nonprofit organization set up to help poets in crises. If you can=B9t make it please send a tax-deductible donation with a note that it is for Will Alexander to: POETS IN NEED PO BOX 5411 BERKELEY, CA 94705 Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:12:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: A.Word.A.Day--lexiphanes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Begin forwarded message: > From: Wordsmith > Date: October 24, 2007 2:50:02 AM CDT > To: linguaphile@wordsmith.org > Subject: A.Word.A.Day--lexiphanes > > This week's theme: There is a word for it. > > lexiphanes (lex-SIF-uh-neez) noun > > One who uses words pretentiously. > > [From Greek lexiphanes (phrase monger), from lexis (word or phrase) > + -phaneia > (to show).] > > -Anu Garg (words at wordsmith.org) > > "The danger is in becoming so seduced by the lexiconic that we > became > lexiphanes. There's no excuse for indulging in the bombastic at any > time, of course." > Murray Waldren; That's Language; The Australian (Sydney); Jul > 16, 2005. > > This newsletter is made possible in part by these sponsors: > > Stay competitive with a professional certificate from top-ranked > Notre Dame, > Tulane or Thunderbird -- 100% ONLINE! http://UniversityAlliance.com/ > WSCerts > > Always find the right word with the Visual Thesaurus. Wordsmith > readers > save 10%. Try it free! http://www.visualthesaurus.com/?ad=aw&code=m7r > > Free! Extra issue of any of Champs-Elysees Audio Magazines in > French, German, > Italian and Spanish. Subscribe at: http://web.champs-elysees.com/ > wsmith7 > > ...................................................................... > ..... > They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not > laughing > now. -Bob Monkhouse, comedian (1928-2003) > > Send your comments to (words AT wordsmith.org). To unsubscribe, > update address > send gift subscription, etc., visit http://wordsmith.org/awad/ > subscriber.html > > Pronunciation: > http://wordsmith.org/words/lexiphanes.wav > http://wordsmith.org/words/lexiphanes.ram > > Permalink: http://wordsmith.org/words/lexiphanes.html > 24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND JOGLARS CROSSMEDIA BROADCAST (collaborative text & media) http://www.joglars.org SPIDERTANGLE International Network of VisPoets http://www.spidertangle.net XEXOXIAL EDITIONS Appropriate Scale Publishing since 1980 http://www.xexoxial.org INTERNALATIONAL DICTIONARY OF NEOLOGISMS research | reference | ongoing collection http://www.neologisms.us Dreamtime Village Hypermedia Permaculture EcoVillage in Southwest Wisconsin http://www.dreamtimevillage.org "The word is the first stereotype." Isidore Isou, 1947. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An interesting metaphor. And perhaps appropriate provided that schizophrenia is the hearing of voices. I was going to add 'not your own' but then we get into whether its multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia. If you read George Bowering or Jack Spicer, you will come across the concept of 'dictation', essentially the 'funnelling' of your 'muse' onto the page without active intervention on the poet's part. Something like the automatic writing of the surrealists - Breton, Artaud, etc. So, in that sense, if we are hearing a voice 'dictating' to us, then, yes, it is a very appropriate metaphor. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Tracey Gagne Sent: October 25, 2007 12:01 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between poetry and schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write poetry" kind of way. I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health profession and have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or so. These interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've never used the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do they seem synonymous to me. Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something else I'm missing. Can anyone help me with this? Cheers, Tracey On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally > disabled; > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear me. Abstraction > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of devices). Take > the > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, this is > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so as > not > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: relevance. Why > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness over, > what?, > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more than to > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're smart and > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart or very > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside one's > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic derivation > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), new > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, yeah?)--- > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily (summarily?) > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of one's > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the soulless > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's what > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to make > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the > original > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of outsiders > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is legitimately > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: 24/10/2007 2:31 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: 24/10/2007 2:31 PM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:48:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <004f01c8172f$1dfa3de0$6401a8c0@mothership> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Taken this discussion more broadly, if I may, the current bugaboo for = poets, or writers of any ilk, is the whole concept of political correctness. I = find that the effect of this has been to transfer censorship from society to = the individual and, because the individual is quite often in the dark as to = what will be considered across the line, a wide berth is given to otherwise effective and necessary poetic inspiration. What does everyone else = think? John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Andrew Klobucar Sent: October 25, 2007 12:48 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger I would also recommend Slavoj Zizek's The Ticklish Subject, which also intellectually contextualises Heidegger with respect to broader (and yet perniciously niggling) questions on ontology and western modernity.=20 Dr. Andrew Klobucar Dept. of English Capilano College 604.986.1911 (2426) =20 2055 Purcell Way North Vancouver, BC V7J 3H5 =20 Selling is what selling sells -Joe Strummer -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Robert Majzels Sent: October 25, 2007 6:17 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger One way to appreciate Heidegger is perhaps to read him through =20 Emmanuel Levinas, who first introduced Heidegger to France, and then =20 thought through a critique of Heidegger's thought. Clearly, to divorce Heidegger's politics from his philosophy is =20 impossible, not to say dangerous. Nor does picking and choosing =20 what's "useful" in Heidegger entirely solve the problem. What L=E9vinas manages to do, I think, is to identify the essentialism =20 in Heidegger that makes the fascist turn possible, not to mention the =20 turning away from the face of the other, the plight of his =20 colleague's in Freiburg for example. And of course, Levinas does this =20 without simplistic rejection. He makes it possible to continue =20 thinking after Heidegger. (Also a few hours with Paul Celan's poems =20 (in the original German or the Pierre Joris translations) is a =20 helpful counterpoint.) Robert Majzels www.apikorossleuth.com On 24-Oct-07, at 9:22 AM, Sam Truitt wrote: > Yes, I agree--need to drink with a long spoon - the same as we =20 > measure Dante, as well posited - and I think underlying it is a =20 > standards' issue viz. we expect better behavior from a philosopher =20 > than a poet, oddly - and I don't know why - particularly for me in =20 > light of the fact I hold poets, not philosophers, must become kings =20 > if our beings are to run on real time. But it is of a piece - as =20 > Joyce said re. Yeats (blue shirt), "show me the man" - and =20 > Heidegger conveyed, laid out, a way - held up a light - but seeing =20 > such I think we need to consider the shape of the lantern - too =20 > with Eliot and Pound among others of era. Williams on the other =20 > hand called it, of course. Again, I think we take what we can use. > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Sam Truitt's "Days" > (improvisational AV > strip each day of 2007) > www.youtube.com/profile?user=3DSamtruitt > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Nicholas Karavatos > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:56:35 AM > Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger > > > Damn right we should be critical of what we read, underlying > assumptions, etc. > > But when a discussion of this type pops up, I always end up wondering, > "Why aren't we just as critical of so-called Communist [poets] as we > are of the so-called Fascists?" > > Or is that a false anology? > > It's just I hear "s/he was personally a fascist" dismissively hung > around the necks of [poets and philosphers], but I never hear similar > conclusive judgements about writers of any other socio-political =20 > stance. Or > maybe I'm not listening. > > (Hey, was Dante an "Islamophobe"? He shoved Mohammed into Hell as a > "schismatic" in the *Inferno*, didn't he? Does that make Dante a > "Christofascist"?) > > When we read [poets, philosophers, historians] from bygone eras, > perhaps the ancient world, do we consider what their socio-political > positions were for any reason other than to delve into the context =20 > of their > time? > > I don't think we use the same readerly objectivity on writers since =20 > the > end of the 19 century. Now it's personal. > > Generally speaking, as I've travelled outside The West I've been > astonished at how many people personally consider classism, =20 > racism, and > sexism to be the normal, natural order of the world and any arguments > against such as contrary to human nature. I have noticed much of =20 > the world > still thinks these socio-political stances are correct. > > I wonder if any great writers today from any of these countries > subscribe to any of these world views? If they do, should I =20 > multiculturally > accept them, or ideologically denounce them, or both, or niether? > > I don't know. > > Yeah, yeah - this is the same old debate of whether an [artist's] > personal behavior or political views should affect our =20 > relationship with > their [artistic] activity. > > > > Nicholas Karavatos > Dept of Language & Literature > American University of Sharjah > PO Box 26666 > Sharjah > United Arab Emirates > >> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:13:30 -0700 >> From: samtruitt@YAHOO.COM >> Subject: Re: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Brother, You need to look more closely >> under the Heidegger's hood - seductive >> writing - compelling - but he was a nazi >> as evidenced in his writing of '30s >> including in his turn re. what happened >> with CONTRIBUTION TO PHILOSOPHY, which >> while thoroughly deep is laced with >> anti-semitisms. He's a mixed bag - take >> from it what you can that's useful. >> >> Best as ever, >> Sam >> --- steve russell wrote: >> >>> Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a > beautiful >>> book. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He > no >>> longer called what he did philosophy. He simply called it > "thinking." >>> Being there in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue > with >>> the world. >>> >>> As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply > suspicious >>> of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for >>> refusing to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah > Arent, >>> his lover at one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no > way >>> a proponent of racial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as > his >>> being duped by political bullshit, is certainly not alone among > major >>> 20th century artist & thinkers. >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >> >> >> _____________________________________________________________ >> >> Sam Truitt's "Days" >> (improvisational AV >> strip each day of 2007) >> www.youtube.com/profile?user=3DSamtruitt >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word > scramble challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?=20 > icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: = 24/10/2007 2:31 PM =20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: = 24/10/2007 2:31 PM =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:14:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bruce Covey Subject: Coconut 10 plus Coconut Books In-Reply-To: <000e01c81759$356bbb00$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Coconut 10 has cracked open, revealing tasty new poems by Norma Cole, Carla Harryman, Ange Mlinko, Emily Kendal Frey, Ben Mirov, Caroline Crumpacker, Chad Sweeney, Donna Stonecipher, Lily Brown, Andrea Rexilius, Srikanth Reddy, Erica Anzalone, Ann Stephenson, Carley Moore, Daniel Nester, Paula Cisewski, Paul Siegell, Kristy Bowen, Ben Doller, Dorine Preston, and Morgan Lucas Schuldt. Come see! http://www.coconutpoetry.org. Plus, check out the grand opening of COCONUT BOOKS, starring Reb Livingston’s YOUR TEN FAVORITE WORDS!!! http://www.coconutpoetry.org/books1 Sincerely, Bruce Covey Coconut Editor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:15:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Tobin Subject: This Sunday at Unnameable (Brooklyn) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This Sunday, October 28 at 5:00 pm: *** David Abel & Mitch Highfill at 456 Bergen Street Brooklyn *** Here is a map: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&time=&date=&ttype=&q=456+Bergen+St,+Br ooklyn,+Kings,+New+York+11217,+United+States&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52. 020054,82.265625&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=0,40.681157,-73.976247&ll=40.681452,-7 3.976161&spn=0.012286,0.020084&z=16&om=1 *** Here is a video of Mr. Highfill reading at last year's flarf festival: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9vDD-_-SgU And here are some stanzas written by Mr. Abel: Sunset makes the windows music lights the sequence so there is a code and a precipice-- the basin is inviting as on a holiday history seems poetic grave but sustaining-- a soapy taste on the tongue independent of the music or the prospect *** Other upcoming readings: Friday Nov. 2 @ 8 pm: Mathias Svalina Erin Elizabeth Burke & Thibault Raoult Sunday Nov. 11 @ 5 pm: Sarah Lang Sunday Nov. 18 @ 5 pm: EOAGH release party w/ Tim Peterson et al. Sunday Dec. 2 @ 5 pm: Lynn Crawford & Johannah Rodgers *** *** Unnameable Books 456 Bergen St. Brooklyn, NY 11217 unnameablebooks@earthlink.net (718) 789-1534 www.unnameablebooks.net *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:21:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: MOI WANTS YOUR BLURB In-Reply-To: <214.aae1df7.307552b8@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hi eileen just found this old email! did you ever finish the book & if so where can find it? all best ruth On 10/5/05 12:00 PM, "Eileen Tabios" wrote: > Dear All, > > For my BLURBED BOOK PROJECT, I have received, to date, 150 blurbs in eight > days. You can see them at http://blurbproject.blogspot.com > > Thanks to those who have participated and please continue to send blurbs: I > receive all these blurbs and then wiill write a single book that will aptly > fit > to all of them. Though I am always happy to receive your praise (and > disdains), I am equally delighted to receive your efforts to make my writing > life > hell, e.g. like an unironic conjoining of war-torn Europe with Antarctica's > penguins, a double-sestina thrown in the middle, per the blurb from Aldon > Nielsen. > > I'm also writing this because, feeling stunned at everyone's generosity, I > now offer blurbs for sale. If you are a writer and need a blurb for any of > your > upcoming books, those by Jukka-Pekka Kervinen are for sale (simply substitute > your name and book title) for a modest donation for hurricane relief efforts. > More info on this at my primary blog, http://chatelaine-poet.blogspot.com > > Thanks for your time, > Eileen Tabios > > ...desiring to write the book you want to read...and the poem I didn't know I > wanted to write. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:17:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katalanche Press Subject: New publications by Tan Lin & Michael Slosek from Katalanche Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We're pleased to announce two new releases from Katalanche Press: ambience is a novel with a logo by Tan Lin (stapled chapbook, 20 pgs.) $7.50 & Z Formation Michael Slosek (pamphlet of 12 poems) $2 Check them out at our website, along with sample texts, here: http://katalanchepress1.blogspot.com/ Purchases can be made through paypal, or by check (payable to Michael Carr) sent to: Katalanche Press c/o Carr 50 Plymouth St. #1 Cambridge, MA 02141 Best, Michael & Dottie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:16:44 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Will Alexander MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Considering all that has been said here, and just having talked with the Will Alexander on the phone I wanted to add a few things about his current condition. Will is feeling well, ready to conquer the world from our talk, very happy from your support, and would like future support to go directly to us at the address below. Otherwise it may or may not make it too him. There is a problem with the San fran ADDRESS provided earlier. In last year he has supported a book of ours put out nearly 10 years back. We admire that and a while ago we made an arrangement to publish his next book of poems. Will Alexander has been an important author to us, not only in terms of us making his most important collection but those books that came after, like Doug and Lyn's Book, well known, but more importantly, letting his best work shine with us and those who know us. Until the end of November, half of the coverprice from his seminal book of poems, ABOVE THE HUMAN NERVE DOMAIN, will be given directly to the Author to help out out with his current health problems. Unlike some other places, our non-profit will give a full 100% of donations directly to Will. No problems. No questions asked. We love you all Be well-- David Baratier Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 03:28:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: my group All 7-70 (article and review) (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > AVAILABLE NOW! > > Bixobal #1 > magazine > 56 pages, 5.5" by 8.5", 20 lb. paper, b&w > 750 copies printed > > PRICE: $2.00 plus shipping > > cover star: Matt Heyner > > features: > > - the first installment of Climax Golden Twin Rob Millis' column > "Talking Machine" in which he talks about 78 rpm records, Korean ones > > - an interview with Alan Sondheim on his group All-7-70 (which > recorded for ESP-Disk) and his solo material (which has been released > by Fire Musuem and Qbico), plus a special review section covering his > discography > > - book dealer and artist Dave Hornor gives us the run down on books > by Tuli Kupferburg of The Fugs > > - part one of former Sun City Girl Sir Richard Bishop's Indian > travelogue from this summer > > - an extensive interview with Dave Nuss of The No-Neck Blues Band by > Canadian writer Allan MacInnis - possibly the first interview with > NNCK in print > > - reviews of vinyl, cassettes, compacts discs and books, both new and > old - Tetuzi Akiyama, Alvarius B., Sir Richard Bishop, Henry Brant, > Andrew Chalk, Charalamides, Coleclough & Murmer, Joe Colley, Custom > Floor, Herb Diamante, Bob Downes Open Music, Ferran Fages, Faust/NWW, > Mike Hansen, Human Flesh, Monroe Golden, Ilios, irr.app.(ext.), > Isolde, Lngtche, Marsen Jules, Agusti Martinez, Neung Phak, Pulga, > Frederic Rzewski, Seishokki, Sonde, Sun City Girls, Supersilent, > Tarkatak, Under Satan's Sun, > Waldron/Stapleton/Sigmarsson/Haynes/Faulhaber, Yamauchi/Doneda, "I.D. > Art #2", "Table for Six", Arman, Paul Burwell, Joseph Cirincione, > dsh, Walter de Maria, Michael Isikoff and David Corn, Allan Kaprow, > Aram Saroyan, Jan van der Marck, "The Berlin Scene 1972", Little > Howlin' Wolf, and Silmaril > > http://www.ribexibalba.com/bixobal/ > Best, > Eric > > At 10:53 PM -0400 10/15/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: >> Just got the magazine and it looks and reads fantastic! I'd love to >> hear the Sir* and Headless* - I'm not familiar with them. I thought >> I came off too dull, especially next to butoh and Calcutta. By the >> way the talk thing on Qbico isn't electronically compressed - it's >> directly recorded from a World War II field telephone that I >> restored! (I'm now playing w/ crystal radios among other things.) >> >> I may get out to Victoria sometime - my brother's there, just across >> the water... >> >> love, Alan and thank you so much! - btw if you send me an >> advert/blurb in email (text), I can forward it to various lists; on >> the other hand, it might mean some mailing - > > -- ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:46:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: <000c01c8173c$9f106eb0$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks, John. I've been thinking about this all night. Of course, the "not your own" is applicable to schizophrenia, as dissociative identity-- the "new" term for multiple personality-- isn't necessarily about hearing voices that aren't your own as much as disassociating from your self and taking on a completely different personality and set of behaviors (think of Sybil, Eve, Rabbit), which would have an entirely new and different meaning for poets. The auditory hallucinations that are commonly a part of schizophrenia ARE hearing voices that aren't your own--among other things. The issue I have with throwing these terms around is that I understand the pain (and shame) that people experience in having schizophrenia, and my concern relates to not wanting to show disrespect for people who are in pain like that, particularly when there are many people who don't fully understand the meaning of the term that they're using (and, decidedly, the DSM changes so frequently that it's difficult to keep up with what terms mean, etc.). I understand Spicer's aliens using the furniture in his room in order to speak through him, and I appreciate that metaphor (and that it doesn't refer to schizophrenia). And, I can appreciate a metaphor that describes that urge that I have to write that sometimes doesn't feel like myself, that sometimes feels outside myself ("alien"), that pulls me to my notebook or keyboard and pours out of me. However, I, personally, am uncomfortable using a term that is so socially loaded and misunderstood so as to cause people who suffer from "real" auditory and visual hallucinations (and paranoia) to feel isolated and rejected. (And, I write this as I sit at the hospital attempting to get help for a patient who has been trying for years to live with her paranoia but who is resigning herself to accept outside help, because she just can't take it anymore-- even under these circumstances, she's not really ready to accept what's happening with her). I think about the people I come into contact with regularly when I hear the terms poetry and schizophrenia used nearly synonymously. When in a social setting, I'm sure that not too many poets would introduce themselves as "schizophrenic" (a term I am also loathe to use, as there's so much more to a person than a mental health diagnosis) because of the social reprecussions that would create. Sit back and imagine how someone you've recently met might react if you say, "Oh, and I'm schizophrenic. I have some books with me, if you want to look." People already have a difficult time reacting appropriately when told we're poets.... I am a poet. And, in a lot of ways, being a poet is complicated. What compels me to write poetry that doesn't happen with my brother or other family members? I don't know. I know that I don't hear voices that "command" it of me (and, I've never encountered someone with voices that would command something like writing poetry-- from the way I understand it, the voices ask for something else). On some levels, I can understand the metaphor, but on many, I simply can't accept it. Maybe I'm too close to people in crisis, and I just want to pull them in under my blanket and protect them. To me, it's a convenient metaphor in a lot of ways, but even in reflecting on Spicer's aliens, I see it as different from what he described. My muse is in me, and in many ways, is a part of me. My muse doesn't wish me harm, doesn't tell me I'd be better off dead and give me ways to kill myself. My muse doesn't tell me that everyone is looking at me and laughing. Nor does my muse tell me that everyone hates me because I had my tarot cards read once eight years ago. My muse seeks to help me identify with others, not to isolate me from others. My muse helps me to share in the human experience and give to that experience. This is not to say that all auditory hallucinations are exactly like this, or that there aren't individuals who enjoy the company they have. Some are much kinder-- "helpful" seeming. And, this is not to say that there do not exist and have not existed people with schizophrenia who are not poets (or painters, or sculptors, or other kinds of artists), because we all know this isn't true. I'm thankful for my interactions with people with schizophrenia, because as I said in the previous email, my poetry has been affected by those interactions (I've been affected in other ways, too, but this is about poetry). I've learned a lot about language and how to fit words and ideas together in ways that were never available to me before. I've learned that there are "other" ways of presenting complex ideas on the page, just from conversations with the people I've encountered. I've learned to think differently in some ways, because I've been granted new perspectives on the mind and the way it produces thought. I'm thankful for that, and I try to be respectful of that. I recognize that I've probably thought entirely too much about this (as I am often accused of doing), but I thank you for the opportunity to clarify my own difficulties with what I've been reading on here and in other places, especially if you've made it this far in my rant! Cheers, Tracey On 10/25/07, John Cunningham wrote: > > An interesting metaphor. And perhaps appropriate provided that > schizophrenia > is the hearing of voices. I was going to add 'not your own' but then we > get > into whether its multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia. If you > read > George Bowering or Jack Spicer, you will come across the concept of > 'dictation', essentially the 'funnelling' of your 'muse' onto the page > without active intervention on the poet's part. Something like the > automatic > writing of the surrealists - Breton, Artaud, etc. So, in that sense, if we > are hearing a voice 'dictating' to us, then, yes, it is a very appropriate > metaphor. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Tracey Gagne > Sent: October 25, 2007 12:01 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue > > I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between poetry > and > schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write poetry" > kind of way. > > I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health profession and > have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or so. These > interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've never > used > the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do they > seem > synonymous to me. > > Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something else > I'm > missing. Can anyone help me with this? > > Cheers, > Tracey > > > On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally > > disabled; > > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear me. Abstraction > > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of devices). Take > > the > > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we > > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, this is > > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so as > > not > > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: > relevance. Why > > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness over, > > what?, > > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more than > to > > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're smart > and > > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart or > very > > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside one's > > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic derivation > > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), new > > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, > yeah?)--- > > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily (summarily?) > > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of one's > > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the > soulless > > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's > what > > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to make > > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the > > original > > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of outsiders > > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is legitimately > > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > 24/10/2007 > 2:31 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > 24/10/2007 > 2:31 PM > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:50:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Marriage Poem Thread In-Reply-To: <000c01c8173c$9f106eb0$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit continuing the marriage-poem thread, here is a marriage-anniversary poem by a contemporary Indian poet, Prabal Kumar Basu Marriage Anniversary Tomorrow is our marriage anniversary Today is the eve of our annulment Yet, we hadn't scheduled any festivities For either of the two days Slightly backdated, nagging anniversary, regulated Surely you don't enjoy it anymore Even I have recently overcome the shallow emotion To reminisce, that special date It's winter, on the eve of our anniversary Let's go for a walk For the last time let us walk together I can feel the breath of concealed excitement On the eve of our annulment You tripped while walking by my side I steadied you for the last time You took away your hand cautiously Somewhat frightened You realise, this unwanted marriage anniversary thrust upon Has no worth any more Instead tonight let us Speak of the forthcoming days Actually some of these days, still Secretly will belong exclusively to us. Translated by Barnali Roy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 06:21:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: French Debate: Is Maori Head Body Part or Art? - New York Times In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A very interesting article as there is art that is returned as art, and bones that are returned as bones to be properly buried--American Indian bones returned from the Smithsonian for burial in Sacred grounds--but what to do with body parts that are decorated, appear also as art? In Cambodia, the tour guides in the museums which are the preserved torture prisons of the Pol Pot regime are the torturers, who every day recount again, room by room, device by device, their activities of thirty years ago. In Israel, a discussion was held on the possibility of, after the "solution" to the Palestinian problem, having a Museum of the Palestinian, or of Palestinian Culture. Would it be safe to have exhibits of dances and crafts demonstrated by live Palestinians, or would actors or diorama figures have to be employed? Since the invasion of Iraq, it is isn't just the museums which are systenatically looted; it is a huge business for some time now to methodically remove layer by layer the strati of the archeological history of the world's oldest civilization. Farmers and townspeople unemployed since the occupation have found steady work excavating their own history and selling it by the shovel full by the hour at a minimum wage to sub contractors of contractors who pay off others to have it transported elsewhere. This is not "looting," after all, but "providing employment to a desperate population." Will the French debate open up similar ones over the multi-tattooed body parts of American soldiers littering IED lined convoy routes? http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/world/europe/26france.html?_r=1&oref=slogin--- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 06:39:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: Re. Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger In-Reply-To: <04ef01c816ab$72bf2f90$1a12eb80@Burt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline i've been thinking about how to read heidegger, too, in light of his political background and lousy treatment of arendt it seems to me that he was sort of one of those terrible parents (or Republicans) who lives an ugly cowardly life, as you say Burt, and then has to write a book about how everyone should avoid the same mistakes as he made. like don't get caught up with 'the they' and the dangerous sweep of public opinion. and then after making arendt sneak around, all of this talk about propriation (owning up to what you are) and the clearings and houses and temples that he describes on the way to language that are all disclosedly open. not that that excuses him for kicking his own teacher out of the university or any of his other awful actions, or tells us which parts of his work to use or not use, but for me it's interesting to read him for this strange connect-disconnect. On 10/24/07, Burt Kimmelman wrote: > Dear Steve Russell, > > > > Heidegger's book Poetry, Language, Thought has been for me a pivotal and = enthralling, revelatory work that I have been reading and teaching for some= decades now, and I feel that Heidegger is an intellectual giant and a gorg= eous writer. But I have to say that he was a Nazi, and he did some very, ve= ry ugly, cowardly things-which just tells us that human beings are not to b= e simplified. Also, not all of that book is "late Heidegger" as you suggest= ; to be sure, "The Origin of the Work of Art" was written early in his care= er and then, I believe, revised repeatedly over a large number of years, bu= t the basic ideas in the essay are there in the first published version. An= yway, I urge you to check out a recent essay on H in Jacket 32, "Cutting Po= ets to Size - Heidegger, H=F6lderlin, Rilke," written by Anthony Stephens, = someone who seems to be quite knowledgeable and clear-eyed about this great= philosopher: http://jacketmagazine.com/00/home.shtml. > > > > Burt Kimmelman > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:55:08 -0700 > From: steve russell > Subject: Poetry Language Thought/ Martin Heidegger > > Has anyone read Heidegger's "Poetry Language Thought?" It's a beautiful b= ook. It's late Heidegger, during, what he called "the turning." He no longe= r called what he did philosophy. He simply called it "thinking." Being ther= e in German is Dasein. Dasein was Heidegger's dialogue with the world. > > As for his political stance, I only know that he was deeply suspicious = of modernity. He was expelled from the University of Frieburg for refusing = to censor Nietzsche anti/anti Semitic writings. Hannah Arent, his lover at = one time, defended him to the end. Heidegger was in no way a proponent of r= acial theories of any type. & Heidegger, as far as his being duped by polit= ical bullshit, is certainly not alone among major 20th century artist & th= inkers. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina E Lovin Subject: Chapbook Publication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to announce that my second chapbook, Little Fires, is now available for pre-publication sales, with no shipping, under "New Releases" from www.finishinglinepress.com. Little Fires was a finalist in the New Women's Voices Poetry Series, and is being published as # 55 in the series. "Event Horizon" a sonnet crown and the centerpiece of Little Fires, was awarded third place in the 2007 Women Who Write Poetry Award, Finalist status in the 2007 Rita Dove Poetry Award, and garnered the Emerging Poet Award from the 2007 Southern Women Writers' Conference. Other poems have appeared in From the Other World: Poems in Memory of James Wright, American Poetry Review, Mid-American Poetry Review, Vox, Caesura, Stimulus Respond, and many other journals and anthologies. Blurbs: "Christina Lovin declares that she wants to write poems in which she immerses herself, "like a dog... muzzle deep in the rot of flesh and hair found in a far field." .She has ventured boldly, and with memorable lyrical detail, into the dark fields of farms, physics, desecrated mountain tops, and the fenceless expanse of her grievous imagination. Like the "false map turtle" she studies for directions in her poem "False Map," Lovin leads her reader courageously into the mortmain of her memory where the lives and deaths of both maligned and celebrated creatures return to her with haunting messages. "Little Fires" is a stunning second collection of poems." ---Chard deNiord, Asleep in the Fire, Sharp Golden Thorn, Night Mowing, What the Animals Teach Us. " 'No one around me / mentioned the war today,' Christina Lovin writes, but the war is ever-present in these poems..As each poem tolls with the clarity of a summer morning, Lovin focuses, in a poem dated September 11, 2001, on "this moment after the fall" to demonstrate how history consumes us, day by day, little fire by little fire.. In this resplendent collection, Christina Lovin's subtleties flare up with impressive and often startling immediacy." -Michael Waters, Darling Vulgarity, Parthenopi: New and Selected Poems; Green Ash, Red Maple, Black Gum; Not Just Any Death, and Contemporary American Poetry(Editor). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:16:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Tonight? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TONIGHT! MiPOesias presents ~~ CYNTHIA SAILERS, DANA WARD and PETER DAVIS~~ Friday, October 26th @ 7 P.M. ~~ CYNTHIA SAILERS is currently writing a dissertation on Narcissism and Perversion in Pathological Group Organization. She is a board member of Small Press Traffic, and previously co-curated New Yipes Reading Series (formerly New Brutalism). DANA WARD is the author of New Couriers (Dusie 2006), I Didn't Build This Machine (Boog Literature, 2004) & The Imaginary Lives of My Neighbors (Duration, 2003). Recent poems have appeared in Mirage #4/Periodical, string of small machines, Small Town, & other places. He lives in Cincinnati & edits Cy Press. PETER DAVIS' book of poems is Hitler's Mustache. He edited Poet's Bookshelf: Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art. His poems have appeared in journals like MiPOesias, Octopus, Court Green, Rattle, and McSweeney's. His music project, Shot Hand, is available through Collectible Escalators. He lives in Muncie , Indiana with his wife, son, and daughter and teaches at Ball State University . ~~~~~~~ STAIN BAR 766 Grand Street Brooklyn , NY 11211 (L train to Grand Street Stop, walk 1 block west) 718/387-7840 http://www.stainbar.com/ ~~~~~~~~ Hope you'll stop by! Amy King Editor http://www.mipoesias.com **please forward** **apologies for cross-posting** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Tracy, for your response. And I did read it in its entirety. I can certainly understand your sensitivity to the issue and the terms used what with your being engaged in the helping profession particularly related to these issues. And I'm glad that you mentioned that some poets are schizophrenic as I have known a few. I'm not certain that I would agree with your statement that the voices do not command poets to write as, at least for me, it is difficult to ignore my muse when she is cooing. You mention socially loaded terms. I think poets use socially loaded terms all the time - very often without being conscious of them. For example, the term 'monoculture' which I used in a poem and was told to 'show not say'. I argued that, because of the iconic quality of this word, it was showing as the word, because of the connotations attached to it by contemporary society, had lifted itself out of the ordinary. And then there are the terms which are individually loaded. For example, in writing a poem for a former lover now friend regarding her childhood in an isolated part of Manitoba, I used the word 'tamarack (which is a type of evergreen with feathery leaves that fall each autumn), only to realize, after sharing the poem with her and having a discussion of the role the tamarack had played in her childhood, that the word 'tamarack' had exceeded the ordinary for her and had become an icon of her existence. But I certainly do understand your position on the terms 'schizophrenic', etc. The difficult is that they serve such a useful existence as metaphors for the poetic process and especially poetic inspiration. And you have not suggested another in its stead that would be as serviceable. There is also the fact that, hopefully, the poet has no intention of harm when using the terms - which is not necessarily nor has ever been a sine quo non for usage. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Tracey Gagne Sent: October 26, 2007 7:46 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue Thanks, John. I've been thinking about this all night. Of course, the "not your own" is applicable to schizophrenia, as dissociative identity-- the "new" term for multiple personality-- isn't necessarily about hearing voices that aren't your own as much as disassociating from your self and taking on a completely different personality and set of behaviors (think of Sybil, Eve, Rabbit), which would have an entirely new and different meaning for poets. The auditory hallucinations that are commonly a part of schizophrenia ARE hearing voices that aren't your own--among other things. The issue I have with throwing these terms around is that I understand the pain (and shame) that people experience in having schizophrenia, and my concern relates to not wanting to show disrespect for people who are in pain like that, particularly when there are many people who don't fully understand the meaning of the term that they're using (and, decidedly, the DSM changes so frequently that it's difficult to keep up with what terms mean, etc.). I understand Spicer's aliens using the furniture in his room in order to speak through him, and I appreciate that metaphor (and that it doesn't refer to schizophrenia). And, I can appreciate a metaphor that describes that urge that I have to write that sometimes doesn't feel like myself, that sometimes feels outside myself ("alien"), that pulls me to my notebook or keyboard and pours out of me. However, I, personally, am uncomfortable using a term that is so socially loaded and misunderstood so as to cause people who suffer from "real" auditory and visual hallucinations (and paranoia) to feel isolated and rejected. (And, I write this as I sit at the hospital attempting to get help for a patient who has been trying for years to live with her paranoia but who is resigning herself to accept outside help, because she just can't take it anymore-- even under these circumstances, she's not really ready to accept what's happening with her). I think about the people I come into contact with regularly when I hear the terms poetry and schizophrenia used nearly synonymously. When in a social setting, I'm sure that not too many poets would introduce themselves as "schizophrenic" (a term I am also loathe to use, as there's so much more to a person than a mental health diagnosis) because of the social reprecussions that would create. Sit back and imagine how someone you've recently met might react if you say, "Oh, and I'm schizophrenic. I have some books with me, if you want to look." People already have a difficult time reacting appropriately when told we're poets.... I am a poet. And, in a lot of ways, being a poet is complicated. What compels me to write poetry that doesn't happen with my brother or other family members? I don't know. I know that I don't hear voices that "command" it of me (and, I've never encountered someone with voices that would command something like writing poetry-- from the way I understand it, the voices ask for something else). On some levels, I can understand the metaphor, but on many, I simply can't accept it. Maybe I'm too close to people in crisis, and I just want to pull them in under my blanket and protect them. To me, it's a convenient metaphor in a lot of ways, but even in reflecting on Spicer's aliens, I see it as different from what he described. My muse is in me, and in many ways, is a part of me. My muse doesn't wish me harm, doesn't tell me I'd be better off dead and give me ways to kill myself. My muse doesn't tell me that everyone is looking at me and laughing. Nor does my muse tell me that everyone hates me because I had my tarot cards read once eight years ago. My muse seeks to help me identify with others, not to isolate me from others. My muse helps me to share in the human experience and give to that experience. This is not to say that all auditory hallucinations are exactly like this, or that there aren't individuals who enjoy the company they have. Some are much kinder-- "helpful" seeming. And, this is not to say that there do not exist and have not existed people with schizophrenia who are not poets (or painters, or sculptors, or other kinds of artists), because we all know this isn't true. I'm thankful for my interactions with people with schizophrenia, because as I said in the previous email, my poetry has been affected by those interactions (I've been affected in other ways, too, but this is about poetry). I've learned a lot about language and how to fit words and ideas together in ways that were never available to me before. I've learned that there are "other" ways of presenting complex ideas on the page, just from conversations with the people I've encountered. I've learned to think differently in some ways, because I've been granted new perspectives on the mind and the way it produces thought. I'm thankful for that, and I try to be respectful of that. I recognize that I've probably thought entirely too much about this (as I am often accused of doing), but I thank you for the opportunity to clarify my own difficulties with what I've been reading on here and in other places, especially if you've made it this far in my rant! Cheers, Tracey On 10/25/07, John Cunningham wrote: > > An interesting metaphor. And perhaps appropriate provided that > schizophrenia > is the hearing of voices. I was going to add 'not your own' but then we > get > into whether its multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia. If you > read > George Bowering or Jack Spicer, you will come across the concept of > 'dictation', essentially the 'funnelling' of your 'muse' onto the page > without active intervention on the poet's part. Something like the > automatic > writing of the surrealists - Breton, Artaud, etc. So, in that sense, if we > are hearing a voice 'dictating' to us, then, yes, it is a very appropriate > metaphor. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Tracey Gagne > Sent: October 25, 2007 12:01 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue > > I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between poetry > and > schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write poetry" > kind of way. > > I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health profession and > have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or so. These > interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've never > used > the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do they > seem > synonymous to me. > > Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something else > I'm > missing. Can anyone help me with this? > > Cheers, > Tracey > > > On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally > > disabled; > > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear me. Abstraction > > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of devices). Take > > the > > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we > > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, this is > > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so as > > not > > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: > relevance. Why > > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness over, > > what?, > > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more than > to > > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're smart > and > > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart or > very > > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside one's > > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic derivation > > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), new > > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, > yeah?)--- > > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily (summarily?) > > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of one's > > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the > soulless > > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's > what > > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to make > > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the > > original > > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of outsiders > > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is legitimately > > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > 24/10/2007 > 2:31 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > 24/10/2007 > 2:31 PM > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.11/1093 - Release Date: 25/10/2007 5:38 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.11/1093 - Release Date: 25/10/2007 5:38 PM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 09:43:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: LitWalks: Kevin Fitzpatrick/Dorthy Parker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series at the Bowery Poetry Club Kevin Fitzpatrick on Dorothy Parker. October 28, 2007, 3:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. Kevin Fitzpatrick on Dorothy Parker and The Algonquin Round Table and the creation of the "New Yorker" magazine. Fitzpatrick is president of the Dorothy Parker Society and author of "A Journey into Dorothy Parker's New York." Bob Holman on Walt Whitman. November 5, 2007, 7:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. Award winning poet Bob Holman will discuss America's greatest poet, Walt Whitman and the formation of the Brooklyn Bridge. Through Whitman's work and photos from that period, you will learn about New York's greatest structure and the pivotal period after the Civil War. Robert Minhinnick on Dylan Thomas. December 2, 2007, 3:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. "Poetry Wales" magazine editor Robert Minhinnick will focus on Welsh poet Dylan Thomas and his mythical death in New York City after a drinking binge at the White Horse Tavern. Sponsored by Rattapallax. October is National Humanities Month! This program is educational and fun for students, educators, and poetry lovers. Free and open to the public as part of the Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series. This lecture series features prominent poets and writers discussing historical literary figures and their relationship with key New York City landmarks. More info at www.litwalks.com These program are supported, in part, by public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Litwalks is funded by the New York Council for the Humanities, a state affiliate of the National Endowment for the Humanities and public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the New York Council for the Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities. Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:46:28 -0500 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: today: two Chicago Calling performance events MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You are invited to come to these two events happening during the 2nd Annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival today: 5 p.m. onwards on Friday, October 26 BEAST POEM performance by Jennifer Karmin Part 1: at Jean Dubuffet’s sculpture Monument with Standing Beast located in front of the James R. Thompson Center 100 W. Randolph Street Part 2: at the Clark/Lake train station * * * * 7 p.m.-midnight on Friday, October 26: Elastic 2830 N. Milwaukee, 2nd Fl. Chicago IL 60618 www.elasticrevolution.com (773) 772-3616 suggested donation: $10, $8 for students broadcast of Eric Leonardson and Anna Friz’s Dancing Walls Stir the Prairie screening of two short films by Jon Steinhorst -- Fiction and Snapshot Thaumatrope Guillermo Gregorio -- clarinets and alto sax Joel Wanek -- upright bass Dan Godston -- trumpet, percussion David Harrison Horton -- poetry Tom Abbs -- bass (over the internet) performance by Asimina Chremos (dance) and Chuck Stebelton (poetry) Divik Ramesh reads selections of his poetry in Hindi, via google talk. Chuck Stebelton reads English language translations of Divik’s poetry. A full day of great performance events is happening tomorrow too, as part of the 2nd Annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival. www.chicagocalling.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:50:03 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT dear tracey, thanks so much for this. there is schizophrenia in my family, and while i agree that a very different and amazing appreciation of meaning/words comes along with it, the terribly harsh parts of it, including the social isolation, are nothing to speak lightly of. all best, gabe On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Tracey Gagne wrote: > Thanks, John. > > I've been thinking about this all night. Of course, the "not your own" is > applicable to schizophrenia, as dissociative identity-- the "new" term for > multiple personality-- isn't necessarily about hearing voices that aren't > your own as much as disassociating from your self and taking on a completely > different personality and set of behaviors (think of Sybil, Eve, Rabbit), > which would have an entirely new and different meaning for poets. The > auditory hallucinations that are commonly a part of schizophrenia ARE > hearing voices that aren't your own--among other things. > > The issue I have with throwing these terms around is that I understand > the pain (and shame) that people experience in having schizophrenia, and my > concern relates to not wanting to show disrespect for people who are in pain > like that, particularly when there are many people who don't fully > understand the meaning of the term that they're using (and, decidedly, the > DSM changes so frequently that it's difficult to keep up with what terms > mean, etc.). I understand Spicer's aliens using the furniture in his room > in order to speak through him, and I appreciate that metaphor (and that it > doesn't refer to schizophrenia). And, I can appreciate a metaphor that > describes that urge that I have to write that sometimes doesn't feel like > myself, that sometimes feels outside myself ("alien"), that pulls me to my > notebook or keyboard and pours out of me. > > However, I, personally, am uncomfortable using a term that is so socially > loaded and misunderstood so as to cause people who suffer from "real" > auditory and visual hallucinations (and paranoia) to feel isolated and > rejected. (And, I write this as I sit at the hospital attempting to get > help for a patient who has been trying for years to live with her paranoia > but who is resigning herself to accept outside help, because she just can't > take it anymore-- even under these circumstances, she's not really ready to > accept what's happening with her). I think about the people I come into > contact with regularly when I hear the terms poetry and schizophrenia used > nearly synonymously. When in a social setting, I'm sure that not too many > poets would introduce themselves as "schizophrenic" (a term I am also loathe > to use, as there's so much more to a person than a mental health diagnosis) > because of the social reprecussions that would create. Sit back and imagine > how someone you've recently met might react if you say, "Oh, and I'm > schizophrenic. I have some books with me, if you want to look." People > already have a difficult time reacting appropriately when told we're > poets.... > > I am a poet. And, in a lot of ways, being a poet is complicated. What > compels me to write poetry that doesn't happen with my brother or other > family members? I don't know. I know that I don't hear voices that > "command" it of me (and, I've never encountered someone with voices that > would command something like writing poetry-- from the way I understand it, > the voices ask for something else). > > On some levels, I can understand the metaphor, but on many, I simply can't > accept it. Maybe I'm too close to people in crisis, and I just want to pull > them in under my blanket and protect them. To me, it's a convenient > metaphor in a lot of ways, but even in reflecting on Spicer's aliens, I see > it as different from what he described. My muse is in me, and in many ways, > is a part of me. My muse doesn't wish me harm, doesn't tell me I'd be > better off dead and give me ways to kill myself. My muse doesn't tell me > that everyone is looking at me and laughing. Nor does my muse tell me that > everyone hates me because I had my tarot cards read once eight years ago. > My muse seeks to help me identify with others, not to isolate me from > others. My muse helps me to share in the human experience and give to that > experience. This is not to say that all auditory hallucinations are exactly > like this, or that there aren't individuals who enjoy the company they > have. Some are much kinder-- "helpful" seeming. And, this is not to say > that there do not exist and have not existed people with schizophrenia who > are not poets (or painters, or sculptors, or other kinds of artists), > because we all know this isn't true. > > I'm thankful for my interactions with people with schizophrenia, because as > I said in the previous email, my poetry has been affected by those > interactions (I've been affected in other ways, too, but this is about > poetry). I've learned a lot about language and how to fit words and ideas > together in ways that were never available to me before. I've learned that > there are "other" ways of presenting complex ideas on the page, just from > conversations with the people I've encountered. I've learned to think > differently in some ways, because I've been granted new perspectives on the > mind and the way it produces thought. I'm thankful for that, and I try to > be respectful of that. > > I recognize that I've probably thought entirely too much about this (as I am > often accused of doing), but I thank you for the opportunity to clarify my > own difficulties with what I've been reading on here and in other places, > especially if you've made it this far in my rant! > > Cheers, > Tracey > > > > > On 10/25/07, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > An interesting metaphor. And perhaps appropriate provided that > > schizophrenia > > is the hearing of voices. I was going to add 'not your own' but then we > > get > > into whether its multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia. If you > > read > > George Bowering or Jack Spicer, you will come across the concept of > > 'dictation', essentially the 'funnelling' of your 'muse' onto the page > > without active intervention on the poet's part. Something like the > > automatic > > writing of the surrealists - Breton, Artaud, etc. So, in that sense, if we > > are hearing a voice 'dictating' to us, then, yes, it is a very appropriate > > metaphor. > > John Cunningham > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Tracey Gagne > > Sent: October 25, 2007 12:01 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue > > > > I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between poetry > > and > > schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write poetry" > > kind of way. > > > > I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health profession and > > have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or so. These > > interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've never > > used > > the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do they > > seem > > synonymous to me. > > > > Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something else > > I'm > > missing. Can anyone help me with this? > > > > Cheers, > > Tracey > > > > > > On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > > > > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally > > > disabled; > > > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear me. Abstraction > > > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of devices). Take > > > the > > > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we > > > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, this is > > > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so as > > > not > > > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: > > relevance. Why > > > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness over, > > > what?, > > > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more than > > to > > > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're smart > > and > > > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart or > > very > > > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside one's > > > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic derivation > > > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), new > > > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, > > yeah?)--- > > > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily (summarily?) > > > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of one's > > > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the > > soulless > > > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's > > what > > > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to make > > > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the > > > original > > > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of outsiders > > > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is legitimately > > > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > 24/10/2007 > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > 24/10/2007 > > 2:31 PM > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:11:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: NYC This Mon./d.a. levy 65th Birthday Celebration Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ---------------- The Poetry Project=20 and Boog City present A 65th Birthday Celebration for d.a. levy Come celebrate the radical and enduring effect of the late Cleveland poet-publisher who was at the vanguard of the mimeo revolution. *Mon. Oct. 29* **5:00 p.m.** Free screening of=20 Kon Petrochuk=B9s d.a. levy biopic =B3if i scratch, if i write=B2 The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery NYC **8:00 p.m.** The Poetry Project at St. Mark=B9s Church in-the-Bowery 131 E. 10th St. New York City Come honor the life and work of the late Cleveland poet-publisher who was a= t the vanguard of the mimeo revolution of the sixties. We=B9ll recognize the radical and enduring effect levy left on small press poetry and publishing during his short life with readings of his work and informal talks and discussion. Participants (bios at the end of this email) will include=20 Steve Clay Bob Holman David Kirschenbaum Jake Marx Gary Sullivan=20 $8, $7 students/seniors, $5 members ----------- Bowery Poetry Club is at E.1st St. Directions: F/V to 2nd Ave., 6 to Bleecker For info: editor@boogcity.com * 212-842-BOOG (2664) Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church is at 2nd Ave. F/V to 2nd Ave., L to 1st Ave., 6 to Astor Pl. For info: http://www.poetryproject.com * 212-674-0910 ----------- Steve Clay is an editor, curator, archivist, and publisher of Granary Books= . He is author and organizer (with Rodney Phillips) of A Secret Location on the Lower East Side: Adventures in Writing 1960-1980 and editor (with Jerom= e Rothenberg) of A Book of the Book: Some Works & Projections About the Book = & Writing. He lives in New York City with his wife Julie Harrison, an artist and teacher, and their two daughters. =20 Bob Holman=B9s new CD, =B3The Awesome Whatever,=B2 is the first release from Bowery Records. New book: A Couple of Ways of Doing Something, a collaboration with Chuck Close, is out from Aperture. New job: teaching =B3Ar= t and the Public Sphere,=B2 a graduate course at NYU, and his Columbia course, =B3Exploding Text.=B2 Samo: Proprietor of Bowery Poetry Club, ExecDirect of Bowery Arts & Science. Proud to be acolyte of fellow Buckeye, d.a. levy. =20 David Kirschenbaum=B9s work has appeared in The Brooklyn Review Online, canwehaveourballback.com, Chain, Pavement Saw, and http://www.unpleasanteventschedule.com, among others. He is the editor and publisher of Boog City, a New York City-based small press and community newspaper now in its 17th year. Boog City=B9s =B3d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press=B2 series, now in its fifth year, has hosted 68 different small presses. =20 Jake Marx (b.1942) Carpenter, community college part-timer, has lived in Cleveland his entire life. Friend of the Asphodel Book Shop for 38 years. Not as generous as d.a. concerning bad poetry or poets with love beads. Married to, god bless her, Cindy. =20 Gary Sullivan is the author of How to Proceed in the Arts (Faux Press) and, with Nada Gordon, Swoon (Granary Books). He has published three issues of his comic book series Elsewhere and lives in Brooklyn with Nada and their two cats, Dante and Nemo. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://www.welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: NYC This Tues./Talisman House Press and So L'il Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ---------------- =20 Boog City presents =20 d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press =20 Talisman House Press (Jersey City, N.J.) =20 Tues. Oct. 30, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free =20 ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC =20 Featuring readings from =20 Figen Bingul John High Joel Lewis Stephen Paul Miller Paul Doru Mugur Janet Rodney =20 and music from =20 So L=B9il =20 There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. =20 Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum =20 ------ =20 **Talisman House Talisman, one of the most respected and productive small press publishers dealing in literary works, was founded in 1988. The press began with the publication of the biannual journal, Talisman, described in MultiCultural Review as =B3kaleidoscopic =8A eclectic =8A fermenting with a thousand tongues=B2 and in Small Press as =B3a serious forum for the best of American poetry and poetics.=B2 =20 The journal=B9s success led to the publication of books, beginning with National Book Award winner William Bronk=B9s The Mild Day and Alice Notley=B9s Selected Poems in 1993. Distinguished works in poetry, fiction, theory, and criticism followed. Among the earliest works published were Jack Spicer=B9s novel The Tower of Babel, which some thought he had never completed but which was accidentally discovered in the early 1990s in a trunk of his manuscripts. Other important works included Leslie Scalapino=B9s novel The Return of Painting, Gustaf Sobin=B9s selected poems, and new books by Joel Lewis, Michael Heller, John High, Paul Hoover, Stephen Jonas, Gerrit Lansing, Timothy Liu, Samuel Menashe, Alice Notley, Geoffrey O=B9Brien, Douglas Oliver, Simon Pettet, Leslie Scalapino, Andrew Schelling, and Leonard Schwartz. =20 Among the many books scheduled for publication this fall and early next yea= r are The Collected Poems of Gustaf Sobin; The Collected Poems of William Bronk; Zhang Er=B9s anthology of contemporary Chinese Poetry, Another Kind of Nation; and new books by Joel Lewis, Stephen Paul Miller, and Serge Gavronsky. Talisman will also be publishing Figen Bingul=B9s translation of Summer=B9s End by Adalet Agaoglu, who is widely regarded as one of the major novelists of our time. =20 =20 *Overall Performer Bios* =20 **Figen Bingul http://lightmillennium.org/2004_newyear/tozlu_snow.html Figen Bingul is a translator from English to Turkish and Turkish to English= . A recent graduate of Purchase College, SUNY, she has established impressive credentials as a translator with Rabia's Return (Istanbul, 2005), a short work of fiction by the great Turkish writer Adalet Agaoglu from Turkish, an= d (working from English to Turkish) Along the Danube: Memories with Melodies, Memoirs of Eugenia Popescu-Judetz and Absurdistan, a novel by Gary Shteyngart. She has translated Summer=B9s End, a major novel by Adalet Agaogl= u to be published later this year by Talisman. =B3Snow,=B2 her translation of a short story by Tezer Ozlu=B9s can be found at the above url. =20 =20 **John High http://www.zoominfo.com/people/High_John_3701867.aspx John High is the author of eight books, including his award-winning (Villag= e Voice top 25 books of the year) trilogy of poetic novels The Desire Notebooks and his recently published book-length poem, Here (Talisman) and novel, Talking God=B9s Radio Show (Spuytenduyvil). He has received four Fulbrights, two NEAs, and writing awards from the Witter Bynner Foundation, Arts International, and the Academy of American Poets, among others. A translator of several books of contemporary Russian poetry, he was the chie= f editor for Crossing Centuries: The New Russian Poetry (Talisman). He is als= o the founding and former editor of Five Fingers Review. High lives in Brooklyn with his daughter and teaches writing and literature at Long Islan= d University. =20 =20 **Joel Lewis http://jacketmagazine.com/28/lewis-j.html Joel Lewis, when not doing battle with the truants on Staten Island in his guise as a mild-mannered social worker, can be found criss-crossing the Jersey landscape via bus, train, and light rail=8Btransfers and tickets in pocket and an unlined, softback, Moleskine notebook at the ready with a Waterman rollerball pen in his right hand. His previous books of poetry include House Rent Boogie and Vertical=B9s Currency (Talisman). He has edited the anthology of contemporary New Jersey poets, Bluestones and Salt Hay, as well as the selected poems of Walter Lowenfels and the selected talks of Te= d Berrigan, both for Talisman. For better or worse, he initiated the now-defunct New Jersey Poet Laureate post. Talisman is publishing his new book, Learning from New Jersey, this fall. =20 =20 **Stephen Paul Miller http://mipoesias.blogspot.com/2007/05/stephen-paul-miller.html Stephen Paul Miller is the author of the Being with a Bullet (to be published this fall by Talisman), The Seventies Now: Culture as Surveillanc= e (Duke University Press), The Bee Flies in May (Marsh Hawk Press), Skinny Eighth Avenue (Marsh Hawk Press), and Art Is Boring for the Same Reason We Stayed in Vietnam (Domestic). He co-edited Scene of My Selves: New Work on the New York School Poets (National Poetry Foundation) and a forthcoming collection for the University of Alabama Press. He has been a senior Fulbright lecturer at Jagiellonian University in Krakow, Poland, and is a professor of English at St. John=B9s University in New York City, where he lives with his son Noah. =20 =20 **Paul Doru Mugur http://www.respiro.org/ Paul Doru Mugur is a translator, editor, and writer. He is the celebrated author of works of fiction, poetry, essays, and literary and art criticism. The Shield of Perseus was published in 1999. His short fiction has been anthologized, and his translations from Romanian, Spanish, and French have been widely published. Among the poets he has translated are Mihai Eminescu= , Octavio Paz, Cesar Vallejo, Roque Dalton, Rene Char, and Roger Gilbert-Lecomte. He is the founding editor of Respiro, a multi-lingual quarterly cultural magazine, where examples of his translations and origina= l works can also be found. He co-edited Born in Utopia: An Anthology of Contemporary Romanian Poetry for Talisman. =20 =20 **Janet Rodney http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/material/three/rodney/index.htm Janet Rodney is a digital artist, poet, and letterpress printer living in Santa Fe, New Mexico with her husband Nathaniel Tarn. Limited edition books published by her press, Weaselsleeves, of authors such as Susan Howe, Lyn Hejinian, and Rina Swentzell are in fine print and rare book collections across the country, and she has had several major exhibits of her work as a letterpress printer. As a poet, she has published six books of poetry; Chameleon=B9s Cadmium, Crystals, Orphydice, The Book of Craving, Moon on an Oarblade Rowing, and Terminal Colors: New and Selected Poems (Talisman). He= r work has appeared widely in literary magazines such as Conjunctions, First Intensity, Hambone, Ribot, Sulfur, and Talisman. =20 =20 **So L=B9il http://solil.net http://www.myspace.com/solil So L=B9il is grace. In the last five years So L=B9il has released a six-song self-titled EP, one split 7-inch with the band Timesbold (both on Neko Records), and the full-lengths Revolution Thumpin and Dear Kathy (both on Goodbye Better). Currently finishing up a new album (A Glittering Facade), recorded at Emandee, 2007 also saw So L=B9il featured on White Label Music=B9s Electronic Bible 3. They have a trio of new tunes flying down on the Goodby= e Better compilation Weird Terrain later this fall. =20 ---- =20 Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues =20 Next event: Tues. Nov. 27, 2007 Big Game Books (Washington, D.C.) =20 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://www.welcometoboogcity.com T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:26:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Hoerman Subject: The return of Chiron Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline nice to see a small press fire up again... On Dec. 1, 2007, Chiron Review will re-open for submissions, with an eye toward a spring issue, March 20, 2008. Writers are invited to send up to six poems, or one short-story. We're also open to reviews, interviews, black and white art and photography, and essays of interest to writers and the small press literary community. I hope CR readers and writers will forgive me for shutting down and then starting back up again. Chiron Review has always flown along on a wing and a prayer, had its delays and hiatuses, stopping and starting as finances and circumstances dictated (but always done right by subscribers and contributors). I do apologize for the roller coaster ride and can't really offer any guarantees for the future. Chiron Review readers and writers have always gone above and beyond the call of duty to support the magazine and to spread the word. I hope you will continue that tradition now. On Dec. 1, 2007, snail-mail submissions with name and complete mailing address on every poem (and front page of prose) should be sent, with SASE to Chiron Review, 522 E. South Ave., St. John, KS 67576-2212. On Dec. 1, 2007, or after, e-mail submissions should be sent to ChironSubmissions@hotmail.com. Put all poems in the e-mail text or as ONE attachment, not one attachment for each poem, please. Floppy disk and CD submissions in Rich Text Format (RTF) are also welcome. Photographs and art may only be submitted via snail-mail. PLEASE: Name and complete mailing address must accompany all electronic submissions. I'd also like to exchange subscriptions with other magazines and receive review copies of small press books and magazines for review and listing in my "News, Etc." column. They can be sent to the address above. Subscriptions and donations are welcome anytime, and will help me get Chiron Review back off the ground. A one-year/four issue subscription is $16. The "Triple S" discount is offered to Seniors, Students and Starving Artists. Don't be afraid to ask about it. And of course, those who are able and wish to provide more support than $16 a year are most welcome to do so. I can accept payment via Paypal: poetry_man61@hotmail.com. Please send me an e-mail if you make a payment this way. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:45:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Crane's Bill Books Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue/ John Wieners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Wieners heard voices and was visited by the Virgin Mary. My = impression, from reading his wilder stuff, like parts of Behind the = State Capitol, and from my few but treasured conversations with him, is = of a greater than usual access to an incredibly fertile source of = association, the absence of the barrier that normally separates the = mundane world from the world of unlimited possibilities, which in his = case was obviously a world saturated with language. But, and this is the = point, although he could not always control that world or his access to = it, he knew how to command spectacularly the material he drew from it, = because on and off the drugs and in and out of hospitals, he had spent = decades perfecting his craft. J. A. Lee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:21:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Tending, Tuning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Tending, Tuning http://www.asondheim.org/tuning1.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/tuning2.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/tuning3.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/tuning4.jpg If I tune 880 kHz on a contemporary radio, it's simple; everything is in place and linear. 880 clearly falls between 870 and 890. If the radio is analog, a dial is turned until the station comes in. If the radio is digital, either up and down buttons are used or the number is entered directly. With analog, one might tune to other, fainter, pirate signals - perhaps something on 882, for example. With inexpensive digital radios, these signals are skipped over. Older crystal radios and superheterodynes worked otherwise. A crystal radio becomes a complex hit-and-miss system of digital taps and analog dials, creating resonance when and where a desired audible signal occurs. The taps and dials are tending, and hunting for a signal involves a difficult but rewarding search. I present four images of an early 1920s crystal radio with a honeycomb coil with three tap systems connected in series to a variometer and antenna. There are two dials, one for the condenser in the crystal radio itself, and the other for the variable inductor of the variometer. Here is a description from the early 1920s of the tuning process: "Having adjusted the crystal detector to a sensitive point, the next thing is to adjust the switches on the coil tube P (primary), the switch on the coil tube S (secondary) and also the variable condenser C so that the ap- paratus will be in 'resonance' with the transmitting station. Set the primary switch N on contact point 1 and while keeping it in this position move the other primary switch O over all of its contacts, stop- ping a moment at each one. Care should be taken to see that the ends of the switch arms are not al- lowed to rest so that they will touch more than one contact point at a time. If no signals are heard, set the switch arm N on contact point 2 and again move the switch arm O over all of its contents. Proceed in this manner un- til the transmitting station is heard. This is called 'tuning' the primary circuit. The tuning of the secondary circuit is the next operation. Set the secon- dary switch Z on contact point I and turn the knob of the variable conden- ser C so that the pointer moves over the entire scale. If no signals are heard, set the switch 2 on contact point 2 and again turn the knob of the variable condenser so that the pointer movers over the entire scale. Proceed in this manner until the signals are loudest, being careful to see that the ends of the switch arms touch only one contact point at a time. Next slide the coil tube S (secondary) in and out of the coil tube P (pri- mary) until the signals are made as loud as possible. This operation is called changing the 'coupling.' When the coupling which gives the loudest signal has been secured, it may be necessary to readjust slightly the position of the switch arm ), the position of the movable coil tube S and the 'setting' of the variable condenser C. The receiving set is now in resonance with the transmitting station. It is possible to change the position of one or more of the switch arms, the position of the movable coil tube and the setting of the variable conden- ser in such a manner that the set will still be in resonance with the same transmitting station, In other words, there are different combinations of adjustments which will tune the set so that it will respond to signals from the same transmitting station. The best adjustment is that which reduces the signals from undesired sta- tions to a minimum and still permits the desired transmitting station to be heard. This is accomplished by decreasing the coupling (drawing coil tube S farther out of coil tube P) and again tuning with the switch arm O and the variable condenser C. This may also weaken the signals from the desired transmitting station but it will weaken the signals from the unde- sired station to a greater extent, provided that the transmitting station which it is desired to hear has a wave frequency which is not exactly the same as that of the other stations. This feature is called 'selectivity.'" (from Henry Smith Williams, Practical Radio, Funk & Wagnalls, 1922-24.) The description is of a three-tapped set with a loose coupler; in the photographs, the variometer replaces the loose coupler, and tuning is done with a knob. Note that what is described is a delicate set of checks and balances; to move away from an interfering station may require all of the tuning elements to be readjusted (trust me, in practice, it usually does). Another difference - with the honeycomb coil I'm using, sometimes the best results occur when the contact is touch two taps simultaneously. I think of this as tending, much as playing a non-electronic instrument (and some electronic instruments for that matter) is a tending - much as dance is a tending of the body, song a tending of the voice, among other elements. A tending is most often non-linear; every adjustment resonates with every other, affects every other. I think this is the way the world was, and is, just as weather is the result of innumerable factors, each of which affects the others, often in unpredictable, chaotic ways. While I've written about this before, I haven't had the opportunity, until recently, to actually operate a complete older crystal radio. The act of tending seems to be, by its very nature, an act of poetics - there is art in it, tricks to be learned, but few shortcuts. I can "feel" the inductance as the coils are switched and turned, and turning/tuning the condenser "feels" different again. This has to do, technically, with resonant peaks and valleys, but the sense is otherwise, that of tending plants or a small world with current flowing through it, gated by crystal or diode, narrowed by the rest of it (with a crystal set, of course, there are no volume controls or on/off switches; it runs on the energy of the signal itself). Somewhere here, there's a phenomenology of operating in relation to tend- ing, analog in relation to digital, caring and justice in relation to law and order, muscle knowledge/memory to traditional "intellect," touch/taste to perception/hearing, and tacit/external knowledges to internal thought. But this has gone on for too long, and the direction, aegis, of such a phenomenology might be clear enough from my other work as well. (Note: The two images of the crystal radio interior illustrate the coil and condensor, which has both coarse and fine tuning. I'm using bubble wrap to hold the coil in place to avoid strain on the original solder joints.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:03:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Kyle Subject: Ted Greenwald's Two Wrongs Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable In the work of Ted Greenwald, tradition is never more than an extension of innovation, history never more than an engagement with the present, the commonplace never more than an extension of the extraordinary. Building on New York's remarkable history of painter and poet collaborations, this striking art and text project features nearly thirty paintings and poems by two seasoned artists. Because his work always involves linguistic and formal invention, Ted Greenwald has often been associated with the Language Writers, but he is unmistakably a New York poe= t and even, given his street-wise sensibility and his long association with visual art and artists, a New York School poet. Typeset and designed by Kyle Schlesinger, the dimensions of the images are true to the original works of art. 250 copies from SPD or Cuneiform at $20 = a pop. Limited edition hardcover are signed by the painter and poet, handbound, and printed on pure cotton rag paper in full colour. Edition of 20 available direct from Cuneiform at $75 a pop (order before the end of th= e month and it=B9s yours for $50, postage included). Deluxe hardcover edition i= s housed in a slipcase and includes a small book handwritten by the author. Edition of 10 (only #1 and #2 remain) available direct from Cuneiform at $300 a pop. Book party at Sugar in NYC scheduled for January. Cheers//Kyle www.kyleschlesinger.com www.cuneiformpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 23:45:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If anybody remembers Susan Sontag's book about cancer as a metaphor. She violently objects to that kind of use. There is a big difference in the meaning for those who know or suffer from the word literally and those who are using it metaphorically. Of course, this kind of use goes on all the time, for instance, "there is a cancer in your presidency," John Dean saying it to Richard Nixon. References to creative acts have always been associated with aberrant behavior of one kind or another: "to make of (give to) airy nothings a local habitation and a name." Is that not the same as hearing voices. The poet imagines them real; the poet makes them real -making others hear the same voices. Nietche's conception of beyond good and evil, also, -that the hero or poet are beyond social realities/restrictions- is that not also a kind of imagining? I do not think the parallel between the poet and the schizophrenic is a comparison of suffering, but of privilege. When we point to a similarity between the schizophrenic and the poet, whom are we privileging, the former or the latter? Are we saying that the schizophrenic possesses a certain divine quality or that the poet possesses the privilege of not following social rules followed by other mortals? Ciao, Murat On 10/26/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > dear tracey, thanks so much for this. there is schizophrenia in my > family, and while i agree that a very different and amazing appreciation > of meaning/words comes along with it, the terribly harsh parts of it, > including the social isolation, are nothing to speak lightly of. all > best, gabe > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > Thanks, John. > > > > I've been thinking about this all night. Of course, the "not your own" > is > > applicable to schizophrenia, as dissociative identity-- the "new" term > for > > multiple personality-- isn't necessarily about hearing voices that > aren't > > your own as much as disassociating from your self and taking on a > completely > > different personality and set of behaviors (think of Sybil, Eve, > Rabbit), > > which would have an entirely new and different meaning for poets. The > > auditory hallucinations that are commonly a part of schizophrenia ARE > > hearing voices that aren't your own--among other things. > > > > The issue I have with throwing these terms around is that I understand > > the pain (and shame) that people experience in having schizophrenia, and > my > > concern relates to not wanting to show disrespect for people who are in > pain > > like that, particularly when there are many people who don't fully > > understand the meaning of the term that they're using (and, decidedly, > the > > DSM changes so frequently that it's difficult to keep up with what terms > > mean, etc.). I understand Spicer's aliens using the furniture in his > room > > in order to speak through him, and I appreciate that metaphor (and that > it > > doesn't refer to schizophrenia). And, I can appreciate a metaphor that > > describes that urge that I have to write that sometimes doesn't feel > like > > myself, that sometimes feels outside myself ("alien"), that pulls me to > my > > notebook or keyboard and pours out of me. > > > > However, I, personally, am uncomfortable using a term that is so > socially > > loaded and misunderstood so as to cause people who suffer from "real" > > auditory and visual hallucinations (and paranoia) to feel isolated and > > rejected. (And, I write this as I sit at the hospital attempting to get > > help for a patient who has been trying for years to live with her > paranoia > > but who is resigning herself to accept outside help, because she just > can't > > take it anymore-- even under these circumstances, she's not really ready > to > > accept what's happening with her). I think about the people I come into > > contact with regularly when I hear the terms poetry and schizophrenia > used > > nearly synonymously. When in a social setting, I'm sure that not too > many > > poets would introduce themselves as "schizophrenic" (a term I am also > loathe > > to use, as there's so much more to a person than a mental health > diagnosis) > > because of the social reprecussions that would create. Sit back and > imagine > > how someone you've recently met might react if you say, "Oh, and I'm > > schizophrenic. I have some books with me, if you want to look." People > > already have a difficult time reacting appropriately when told we're > > poets.... > > > > I am a poet. And, in a lot of ways, being a poet is complicated. What > > compels me to write poetry that doesn't happen with my brother or other > > family members? I don't know. I know that I don't hear voices that > > "command" it of me (and, I've never encountered someone with voices that > > would command something like writing poetry-- from the way I understand > it, > > the voices ask for something else). > > > > On some levels, I can understand the metaphor, but on many, I simply > can't > > accept it. Maybe I'm too close to people in crisis, and I just want to > pull > > them in under my blanket and protect them. To me, it's a convenient > > metaphor in a lot of ways, but even in reflecting on Spicer's aliens, I > see > > it as different from what he described. My muse is in me, and in many > ways, > > is a part of me. My muse doesn't wish me harm, doesn't tell me I'd be > > better off dead and give me ways to kill myself. My muse doesn't tell > me > > that everyone is looking at me and laughing. Nor does my muse tell me > that > > everyone hates me because I had my tarot cards read once eight years > ago. > > My muse seeks to help me identify with others, not to isolate me from > > others. My muse helps me to share in the human experience and give to > that > > experience. This is not to say that all auditory hallucinations are > exactly > > like this, or that there aren't individuals who enjoy the company they > > have. Some are much kinder-- "helpful" seeming. And, this is not to > say > > that there do not exist and have not existed people with schizophrenia > who > > are not poets (or painters, or sculptors, or other kinds of artists), > > because we all know this isn't true. > > > > I'm thankful for my interactions with people with schizophrenia, because > as > > I said in the previous email, my poetry has been affected by those > > interactions (I've been affected in other ways, too, but this is about > > poetry). I've learned a lot about language and how to fit words and > ideas > > together in ways that were never available to me before. I've learned > that > > there are "other" ways of presenting complex ideas on the page, just > from > > conversations with the people I've encountered. I've learned to think > > differently in some ways, because I've been granted new perspectives on > the > > mind and the way it produces thought. I'm thankful for that, and I try > to > > be respectful of that. > > > > I recognize that I've probably thought entirely too much about this (as > I am > > often accused of doing), but I thank you for the opportunity to clarify > my > > own difficulties with what I've been reading on here and in other > places, > > especially if you've made it this far in my rant! > > > > Cheers, > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > On 10/25/07, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > > > An interesting metaphor. And perhaps appropriate provided that > > > schizophrenia > > > is the hearing of voices. I was going to add 'not your own' but then > we > > > get > > > into whether its multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia. If > you > > > read > > > George Bowering or Jack Spicer, you will come across the concept of > > > 'dictation', essentially the 'funnelling' of your 'muse' onto the page > > > without active intervention on the poet's part. Something like the > > > automatic > > > writing of the surrealists - Breton, Artaud, etc. So, in that sense, > if we > > > are hearing a voice 'dictating' to us, then, yes, it is a very > appropriate > > > metaphor. > > > John Cunningham > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > > > Behalf Of Tracey Gagne > > > Sent: October 25, 2007 12:01 PM > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue > > > > > > I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between > poetry > > > and > > > schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write > poetry" > > > kind of way. > > > > > > I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health profession > and > > > have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or so. These > > > interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've > never > > > used > > > the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do > they > > > seem > > > synonymous to me. > > > > > > Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something > else > > > I'm > > > missing. Can anyone help me with this? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally > > > > disabled; > > > > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear > me. Abstraction > > > > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of > devices). Take > > > > the > > > > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we > > > > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, > this is > > > > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so > as > > > > not > > > > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: > > > relevance. Why > > > > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness > over, > > > > what?, > > > > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more > than > > > to > > > > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're > smart > > > and > > > > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart > or > > > very > > > > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside > one's > > > > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic > derivation > > > > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), > new > > > > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, > > > yeah?)--- > > > > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily > (summarily?) > > > > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of > one's > > > > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the > > > soulless > > > > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's > > > what > > > > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to > make > > > > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the > > > > original > > > > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of > outsiders > > > > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is > legitimately > > > > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > > 24/10/2007 > > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > > 24/10/2007 > > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:57:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kate Pringle Subject: Minor American Reading 11/2! Greenstreet & Vitiello Durham, NC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- please join us next Friday at 8 SHARP! 204-208 Rigsbee [the Eleanor building] DOWNTOWN DURHAM, NC right around the corner from Rue Cler to hear POETRY and other such things from : Kate Greenstreet is the author of case sensitive (Ahsahta Press, 2006) and three chapbooks, Learning the Language (Etherdome Press, 2005), Rushes (above/ground press, 2007), and This is why I hurt you (Lame House Press, forthcoming). Statues, a Big Game Books tinyside, was available briefly in 2006. Last March, Flash+Card published In Paradise there is no art, a boxed set of 12 notecards (fragments of writing & art). AND Chris Vitiello lives in Durham and is concerned with, among other things: clarification, light, stars, the sky, clouds, wind, trees, birds, deduction, eyes, leaves, people and their observable behaviors, grasses, the soil, flowers and their growth, description and representation, vegetables, skins and peels, seeds, nuts, cross-sections, dictionary definitions, synonyms and antonyms but especially synonyms, utility, analysis, skepticism, kindness, goodness, quantity, measurement, direct commands, questions, and fact statements. His book comes out from Ahsahta in march and is called "irresponsibility." His other book is "nouns swarm a verb" on xurban in 1999. : Of magic and sorcery the arts are twofold, for the soul is subject to its errors, and opinion is subject to its deceptions. : the Sophist Gorgias : There seems to be no limit to what tropes can get away with : Paul de Man. :http://minoramerican.blogspot.com: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:17:42 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: CFP - "TESOL in a Globalized World: Exploring the Challenges" Comments: To: cultstud-l@comm.umn.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Call for Papers The American University of Sharjah (AUS) Sharjah United Arab Emirates Announces its =20 First AUS International TESOL Conference =93TESOL in a Globalized World: Exploring the Challenges=94 February 23-24, 2008=20 To be held at the American University of Sharjah, UAE Introduction=20 English today has become the lingua franca of an increasingly interdependen= t and globalized world. In almost every part of the world, including the A= rabian Gulf region, the English language is often becoming the first choice= for communication among linguistically and culturally diverse people. The = number of current and future users of English in the world is mounting, and= according to recent estimates, Non native speakers of English have surpass= ed the number of native English speakers. Indeed, recent research in TESOL = and its subfields have started paying more attention to NNS/NNS interaction= s in English, and whether the English speaker=92s norms should be viewed as= the standard. However, much research is still needed to address the issue= of teaching English as a global or international language. This conferenc= e will provide a forum for scholarly discussion of TESOL within the context= of globalization. =20 The theme for this conference is =93TESOL in a Globalized World: Exploring = the challenges.=94=20 We invite you to submit proposals related to the teaching/learning of Engli= sh as a foreign or second language in the context of globalization, issues = of applied language research and questions of language politics. Presentati= ons addressing both TESOL in the Arabian Gulf region as well as those addre= ssing ELT in various geographical and cultural contexts are welcome.=20 Sub themes and Topics Individual papers, workshops, panels, and poster sessions addressing any of= the following conference sub themes and topics are solicited: =95 Effective teaching practices in a globalized world=20 =95 Culturally appropriate language assessment in a globalized world=20 =95 Globalization and English language policies=20 =95 ELT and world Englishes=20 =95 Interaction of non-native/non-native English speakers=20 =95 Cross-cultural pragmatics and ELT=20 =95 Anglo-cultural ethnocentricity and ELT materials=20 =95 Identity and maintenance in language classrooms =95 English teaching and cultural awareness=20 =95 Global English and local norms of relevance=20 =95 ELT and issues of language power=20 =95 Attitude and motivation toward Global English=20 =95 ELT in the Arabian Gulf=20 =95 Sociocultural domains in the third tongue communication=20 =95 The ESL/EFL Dichotomy=20 =95 Technology in the L2 Classroom (or CALL) =95 The Native and Non-native English Language Teacher Dichotomy=20 =95 Professional development of NNS teachers of English=20 =95 The use of Corpora in ESL teaching =95 Writing in English for a globalized audience Types of Presentations: Individual Papers:=20 Presenter(s) will have 20 minutes to present their work plus 10 minutes for= Q & A. Papers can be theoretical, research-based, or practical. An indiv= idual paper proposal should clearly state the purpose of the paper, the nat= ure/type of the paper (i.e., theoretical, research-based, or practical), an= d how it relates to the conference theme. The organizing committee may grou= p papers falling under a common theme into a panel. Panels:=20 Panels can be pre-organized on a common theme and should have three to four= presenters and a discussant. Panelists will have 90 minutes. Panel propos= als should describe the session and its significance as it relates to the c= onference theme. In addition to the panel abstract, each individual presen= ter should submit an abstract.=20 Workshops: Workshops should be practical in nature focusing on classroom methodologies= . Workshop facilitator(s) will have 60 minutes to deliver the workshop. A= proposal should describe the workshop and its significance as it relates t= o the conference theme.=20 Poster Sessions: Poster sessions, presented on a display board, are self-explanatory exhibit= s which allow informal discussion between the audience and the poster prese= nter. An easel will be provided by the conference, but all other materials= must be provided by the presenter. Registration: =20 Early registration: Before January 31, 2008 75.00 US $ Students 25.00 US $ After January 31, 2008 100 US $ =09 Students: 50.00 US $ One day registration: 65.00 US$; students 30.00 $ Mode of payment: Cash or check only at the conference site. Registration fees include the conference program and a reception dinner on = Saturday=20 Submission and Contact Information:=20 =95 All proposals must be submitted as an email attachment sent to the fol= lowing address: tesolconference@aus.edu =95 On the first page of your proposal, please include the following inform= ation: 1. First name and family name, institution or affiliation, country of resid= ence (where you are currently working or living), telephone and fax number,= and e-mail address. 2. The title of your abstract 3. Biography (40-word maximum). This will appear in the Conference Program= . =95 On the second page of your proposal, please include the following: 1. Presentation title: 7- word maximum. 2. Abstract: (250 words) in English (the language of the conference)=20 3. Summary: 50-word maximum to be included in the Conference Program. 4. Type of Presentation: Indicate whether your presentation is a paper, a w= orkshop, part of a panel, or a poster presentation. 5. Equipment Required: Each room is already equipped with a laptop, LCD pro= jector, and screen). Other information: =95 Deadline for submitting your proposal: November 30, 2007 =95 Notification of acceptance: December 12, 2007=20 =95 Selected conference papers may be published in the conference proceedin= gs. To be considered for inclusion in the proceedings, Completed papers mus= t be submitted by April 30, 2008 =95 Information about housing and local transportation will be available sh= ortly online. =95 For further information, please click on the following conference link= :: www.aus.edu/conferences/TESOL08 Conference Organizing Committee=20 Fatima Badry badry@aus.edu Cindy Gunn cgunn@aus.edu Sarah Shono sshono@aus.edu Nicholas Karavatos Dept of English American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0 Play Star Shuffle:=A0 the word scramble = challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= t= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:22:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: MERITAGE PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MERITAGE PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT PRAU Poems by Jean Vengua ISBN-10: 0-9794119-2-0=20 ISBN-13: 978-0-9794119-2-2 =20 Price: $16.95 Release date: December 2007 Distributors: Small Press Distribution, Amazon.com & www.MeritagePress.com For more info: MeritagePress@aol.com Meritage Press is delighted to announce the release of -- and a SPECIAL=20 RELEASE OFFER for -- Prau, winner of the The Filamore Tabios, Sr. Memorial=20= Poetry=20 Prize and the inaugural full-length poetry collection by Monterey Bay=20 Area-based poet Jean Vengua. =20 Jean Vengua's poetry has been published in many print and online journals=20 and anthologies, including Going Home to a Landscape, Babaylan, x-stream,=20 Interlope, Returning a Borrowed Tongue, Fugacity 05, Sidereality, Moria, an= d=20 Otoliths, and in her chapbook, The Aching Vicinities (Otoliths). With Mark=20= Young,=20 she is editor of The First Hay(na)ku Anthology and the forthcoming Hay(na)k= u=20 Anthology, Volume 2. Jean's essays, articles and reviews on literature and=20 music have been published in many journals including Jouvert, Geopolitics=20= of=20 the Visual (Ateneo U. Press), Pinoy Poetics, Our Own Voice, Seattle's =20 International Examiner (Pacific Reader), and CultureCatch.com. ADVANCE WORDS from prominent poets attest to Prau's power and beauty: Jean Vengua is a poet of the typo, the missed step, the happy and unhappy=20 accident; in short, she is a poet of linguistic and global migration. Prau= =20 moves its reader from the Philippines to the Bay Area and back, "always min= ing=20 past present tenses." In her aptly titled prose poem, "Momentum," Vengua=20 links Gustav Mahler, her mother, Buffalo Soldiers, Marie Curie, Roberto Mat= ta,=20 and Jose Rizal in a dance of histories real and imagined. The momentum of=20= her=20 writing brings together what is otherwise ripped asunder: "That is to make=20 beautiful where the dissonance begins to tear." --Susan M. Schultz, Editor of Tinfish Press Prau sets forth on its courageous voyage through time and spirit with a=20 meditation on the year 1911, the date of the author's mother's birth, that=20= sails=20 us through the worlds of Mahler, Marie Curie, Moses Browning (who invented= =20 the M-1911 Colt 45 to kill intransigent Filipino "moros" in Mindanao), the=20= H -=20 Bomb, Matta, the polymath Rizal, Dapitan and the migratory routes of her=20 father's wandering ukulele. Vengua's poems gently yet firmly navigate us= =20 towards yet to be explored spheres of psychological and lyrical revelation= =20 where "by turns and in rounds we are angry, indifferent and in love" and "w= ithout=20 ghosts, the obscurity of night becomes real." This is page-turner, addictiv= e=20 poetry that never falters in its gaze at the integrity of dream and the=20 dream of integrity. --Nick Piombino, author of Fait Accompli At last, this pioneer of the literary blog scene who I have followed throug= h=20 cyberspace since the nineties has a book of poetry that I can take home wit= h=20 me! Vengua's poetry delves into the very nature of culture and custom. An=20 ordinary postage stamp triggers a multi-racial dilemma. A personal memento=20 unlocks a sequence of historic ramifications witnessing the first ever expl= osion=20 of a hydrogen bomb. This is poetry tempered by the movements of New=20 Historicism, Postmodern irony and the culture clash of living in California= . Languages=20 abound. A typo or a footnote can become central to the themes she navigates= =20 in her agile prau, sorting through truth, folklore, dream, memory, and pure= =20 desire.=20 --Catalina Cariaga, author of Cultural Evidence ************************* SPECIAL RELEASE OFFER: Meritage Press is pleased to offer a Release Special through November 30,=20 2007. For $14.00, you can obtain a copy of Prau, a reduced rate from the bo= ok's=20 retail price of $16.95=E2=80=94plus free shipping/handling (an approximate=20= $4.00=20 value) to U.S. addresses. Just send a $14.00 check made out to "Meritage Pr= ess"=20 to: Eileen Tabios Meritage Press 256 North Fork Crystal Springs Road St. Helena, CA 94574 For international orders or more information, please contact us through =20 MeritagePress@aol.com ************************* Jean Vengua will be launching Prau in Berkeley here: Dec. 8, 2007, 3 p.m. THREE FILIPINA POETS at Eastwind Books of Berkeley with Michelle Bautista, Jean Vengua & Eileen Tabios _Eastwind Books of Berkeley_ (http://www.ewbb.com/) (http://www.ewbb.com/) 2066 University Avenue Berkeley, CA 94704 510-548-2350 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:53:42 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: "Arab women stereotypes challenged in pioneering new book by AUS professor" Comments: To: cultstud-l cultstud-l Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Arab women stereotypes challenged in pioneering new book by AUS professor http://www.aus.edu/media/news/show_article.php?Article=3D444 An exciting anthology of pioneering essays challenging the prevailing stere= otypes of Middle Eastern women through the analysis of first-person writing= has just been published in the United States by Syracuse University Press.= Entitled Arab Women=92s Lives Retold: Exploring Identity through Writing, = the book has been edited by Dr. Nawar Al-Hassan Golley, Associate Professor= and Head of the Department of Arabic Studies at American University of Sha= rjah (AUS). Examining late 20th-century autobiographical writing by Arab women novelist= s, poets and artists, the anthology explores the ways in which Arab women h= ave portrayed and created their identities within differing social environm= ents. Even as the collection dismantles standard notions of Arab female sub= servience, the works presented go well beyond the confines of those traditi= onal boundaries.=20 The book, which took two years to compile and edit, explores the many route= s Arab women writers have taken to speak to each other, to their readers an= d to the world at large. Drawing from a rich body of literature, the essays= collectively attest to the surprisingly lively and committed roles Arab wo= men play in varied geographic regions, at home and abroad. The recent writi= ngs assess how the interplay between individual, private, ethnic identity a= nd the collective, public, global world of politics has impacted Arab women= =92s rights. =93From this book, it can be seen that the metaphoric and uncharacteristic = unveiling by Arab women writers, undertaken both to refute the West=92s vie= w of them as passive victims and to expose the discrimination within their = own societies, often at the risk of censorship and punishment, is a courage= ous act that reveals Arab women writers to be contributors to the future of= their societies,=94 explained Dr. Al-Hassan Golley, who apart from editing= the anthology has two contributions in the collection. The book is available online at Amazon.com and from the website of Syracuse= University Press. Nicholas Karavatos Dept of English American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Stop = by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Oc= tWLtagline= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:25:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: French Debate: Is Maori Head Body Part or Art? - New York Times In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How do we honor the dead? Not too long ago, Disney proposed opening a Civil War theme park in Virginia. This caught the attention of William Styron. What you describe happening in Iraq is obscene. Ditto Cambodian tour guides & Palestianian mimes. David Chirot wrote: A very interesting article as there is art that is returned as art, and bones that are returned as bones to be properly buried--American Indian bones returned from the Smithsonian for burial in Sacred grounds--but what to do with body parts that are decorated, appear also as art? In Cambodia, the tour guides in the museums which are the preserved torture prisons of the Pol Pot regime are the torturers, who every day recount again, room by room, device by device, their activities of thirty years ago. In Israel, a discussion was held on the possibility of, after the "solution" to the Palestinian problem, having a Museum of the Palestinian, or of Palestinian Culture. Would it be safe to have exhibits of dances and crafts demonstrated by live Palestinians, or would actors or diorama figures have to be employed? Since the invasion of Iraq, it is isn't just the museums which are systenatically looted; it is a huge business for some time now to methodically remove layer by layer the strati of the archeological history of the world's oldest civilization. Farmers and townspeople unemployed since the occupation have found steady work excavating their own history and selling it by the shovel full by the hour at a minimum wage to sub contractors of contractors who pay off others to have it transported elsewhere. This is not "looting," after all, but "providing employment to a desperate population." Will the French debate open up similar ones over the multi-tattooed body parts of American soldiers littering IED lined convoy routes? http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/world/europe/26france.html?_r=1&oref=slogin--- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 12:22:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0710262045x2be62511hb368dbedd2e849f6@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is really apples and oranges, Murat. Cancer as metaphor is actually pretty accurate--there's a destructive, madly replicating thing in the body politic. The use of schizophrenia as metaphor, on the other hand, is based on an inaccurate folk definition. We all (or mostly all) have different voices within us, probably an internalization of the imaginary friend of childhood. But schizophrenics, unlike non-schizophrenic poets, often don't have the privilege of following the social rules of other mortals. As Tracey and Gabe have pointed out, that's a pretty important privilege. Mark At 11:45 PM 10/26/2007, you wrote: >If anybody remembers Susan Sontag's book about cancer as a metaphor. She >violently objects to that kind of use. There is a big difference in the >meaning for those who know or suffer from the word literally and those who >are using it metaphorically. Of course, this kind of use goes on all the >time, for instance, "there is a cancer in your presidency," John Dean saying >it to Richard Nixon. > >References to creative acts have always been associated with aberrant >behavior of one kind or another: "to make of (give to) airy nothings a local >habitation and a name." Is that not the same as hearing voices. The poet >imagines them real; the poet makes them real -making others hear the same >voices. Nietche's conception of beyond good and evil, also, -that the hero >or poet are beyond social realities/restrictions- is that not also a kind of >imagining? > >I do not think the parallel between the poet and the schizophrenic is a >comparison of suffering, but of privilege. When we point to a similarity >between the schizophrenic and the poet, whom are we privileging, the former >or the latter? Are we saying that the schizophrenic possesses a certain >divine quality or that the poet possesses the privilege of not following >social rules followed by other mortals? > >Ciao, > >Murat > > >On 10/26/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > > dear tracey, thanks so much for this. there is schizophrenia in my > > family, and while i agree that a very different and amazing appreciation > > of meaning/words comes along with it, the terribly harsh parts of it, > > including the social isolation, are nothing to speak lightly of. all > > best, gabe > > > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > Thanks, John. > > > > > > I've been thinking about this all night. Of course, the "not your own" > > is > > > applicable to schizophrenia, as dissociative identity-- the "new" term > > for > > > multiple personality-- isn't necessarily about hearing voices that > > aren't > > > your own as much as disassociating from your self and taking on a > > completely > > > different personality and set of behaviors (think of Sybil, Eve, > > Rabbit), > > > which would have an entirely new and different meaning for poets. The > > > auditory hallucinations that are commonly a part of schizophrenia ARE > > > hearing voices that aren't your own--among other things. > > > > > > The issue I have with throwing these terms around is that I understand > > > the pain (and shame) that people experience in having schizophrenia, and > > my > > > concern relates to not wanting to show disrespect for people who are in > > pain > > > like that, particularly when there are many people who don't fully > > > understand the meaning of the term that they're using (and, decidedly, > > the > > > DSM changes so frequently that it's difficult to keep up with what terms > > > mean, etc.). I understand Spicer's aliens using the furniture in his > > room > > > in order to speak through him, and I appreciate that metaphor (and that > > it > > > doesn't refer to schizophrenia). And, I can appreciate a metaphor that > > > describes that urge that I have to write that sometimes doesn't feel > > like > > > myself, that sometimes feels outside myself ("alien"), that pulls me to > > my > > > notebook or keyboard and pours out of me. > > > > > > However, I, personally, am uncomfortable using a term that is so > > socially > > > loaded and misunderstood so as to cause people who suffer from "real" > > > auditory and visual hallucinations (and paranoia) to feel isolated and > > > rejected. (And, I write this as I sit at the hospital attempting to get > > > help for a patient who has been trying for years to live with her > > paranoia > > > but who is resigning herself to accept outside help, because she just > > can't > > > take it anymore-- even under these circumstances, she's not really ready > > to > > > accept what's happening with her). I think about the people I come into > > > contact with regularly when I hear the terms poetry and schizophrenia > > used > > > nearly synonymously. When in a social setting, I'm sure that not too > > many > > > poets would introduce themselves as "schizophrenic" (a term I am also > > loathe > > > to use, as there's so much more to a person than a mental health > > diagnosis) > > > because of the social reprecussions that would create. Sit back and > > imagine > > > how someone you've recently met might react if you say, "Oh, and I'm > > > schizophrenic. I have some books with me, if you want to look." People > > > already have a difficult time reacting appropriately when told we're > > > poets.... > > > > > > I am a poet. And, in a lot of ways, being a poet is complicated. What > > > compels me to write poetry that doesn't happen with my brother or other > > > family members? I don't know. I know that I don't hear voices that > > > "command" it of me (and, I've never encountered someone with voices that > > > would command something like writing poetry-- from the way I understand > > it, > > > the voices ask for something else). > > > > > > On some levels, I can understand the metaphor, but on many, I simply > > can't > > > accept it. Maybe I'm too close to people in crisis, and I just want to > > pull > > > them in under my blanket and protect them. To me, it's a convenient > > > metaphor in a lot of ways, but even in reflecting on Spicer's aliens, I > > see > > > it as different from what he described. My muse is in me, and in many > > ways, > > > is a part of me. My muse doesn't wish me harm, doesn't tell me I'd be > > > better off dead and give me ways to kill myself. My muse doesn't tell > > me > > > that everyone is looking at me and laughing. Nor does my muse tell me > > that > > > everyone hates me because I had my tarot cards read once eight years > > ago. > > > My muse seeks to help me identify with others, not to isolate me from > > > others. My muse helps me to share in the human experience and give to > > that > > > experience. This is not to say that all auditory hallucinations are > > exactly > > > like this, or that there aren't individuals who enjoy the company they > > > have. Some are much kinder-- "helpful" seeming. And, this is not to > > say > > > that there do not exist and have not existed people with schizophrenia > > who > > > are not poets (or painters, or sculptors, or other kinds of artists), > > > because we all know this isn't true. > > > > > > I'm thankful for my interactions with people with schizophrenia, because > > as > > > I said in the previous email, my poetry has been affected by those > > > interactions (I've been affected in other ways, too, but this is about > > > poetry). I've learned a lot about language and how to fit words and > > ideas > > > together in ways that were never available to me before. I've learned > > that > > > there are "other" ways of presenting complex ideas on the page, just > > from > > > conversations with the people I've encountered. I've learned to think > > > differently in some ways, because I've been granted new perspectives on > > the > > > mind and the way it produces thought. I'm thankful for that, and I try > > to > > > be respectful of that. > > > > > > I recognize that I've probably thought entirely too much about this (as > > I am > > > often accused of doing), but I thank you for the opportunity to clarify > > my > > > own difficulties with what I've been reading on here and in other > > places, > > > especially if you've made it this far in my rant! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/25/07, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > > > > > An interesting metaphor. And perhaps appropriate provided that > > > > schizophrenia > > > > is the hearing of voices. I was going to add 'not your own' but then > > we > > > > get > > > > into whether its multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia. If > > you > > > > read > > > > George Bowering or Jack Spicer, you will come across the concept of > > > > 'dictation', essentially the 'funnelling' of your 'muse' onto the page > > > > without active intervention on the poet's part. Something like the > > > > automatic > > > > writing of the surrealists - Breton, Artaud, etc. So, in that sense, > > if we > > > > are hearing a voice 'dictating' to us, then, yes, it is a very > > appropriate > > > > metaphor. > > > > John Cunningham > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On > > > > Behalf Of Tracey Gagne > > > > Sent: October 25, 2007 12:01 PM > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue > > > > > > > > I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between > > poetry > > > > and > > > > schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write > > poetry" > > > > kind of way. > > > > > > > > I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health profession > > and > > > > have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or so. These > > > > interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've > > never > > > > used > > > > the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do > > they > > > > seem > > > > synonymous to me. > > > > > > > > Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something > > else > > > > I'm > > > > missing. Can anyone help me with this? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally > > > > > disabled; > > > > > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear > > me. Abstraction > > > > > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of > > devices). Take > > > > > the > > > > > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we > > > > > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, > > this is > > > > > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so > > as > > > > > not > > > > > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: > > > > relevance. Why > > > > > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness > > over, > > > > > what?, > > > > > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more > > than > > > > to > > > > > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're > > smart > > > > and > > > > > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart > > or > > > > very > > > > > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside > > one's > > > > > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic > > derivation > > > > > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), > > new > > > > > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, > > > > yeah?)--- > > > > > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily > > (summarily?) > > > > > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of > > one's > > > > > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the > > > > soulless > > > > > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's > > > > what > > > > > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to > > make > > > > > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the > > > > > original > > > > > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of > > outsiders > > > > > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is > > legitimately > > > > > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > > > 24/10/2007 > > > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > > > 24/10/2007 > > > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 07:55:40 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: sidewalk (anti-war) blog news for the week MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well into the third album of photos--click to enlarge and read the stories. http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=15490&l=e0c18&id=654553661 If you snag a photo, please credit it to the sidewalk blogger, not to me. aloha, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:43:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071027121625.062c0610@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tend to think of poets as the shamans of our society - the gatherers and preservers of the folklore and history of our tribes. As with all shamans throughout history, recorded and unrecorded, we are all outcasts living on the fringes of society. Al Purdy failed at everything until he discovered, in his mid-forties, that he was a poet. Di Brandt and Patrick Friesen had to leave their respective Mennonite communities before their voices could be heard - they were shunned in the process. bill bissett, who Jack Kerouac named in 1966, in an interview with Paris Review, as the only North American poet worth listening to, has been living on the fringes of Vancouver since the 1960s developing his concrete and sound poetry - poverty stricken and addicted to drugs which has never stopped him from touring the world to recite his poetry. We poets have been set apart perhaps, like shamans in all lands and in all times, we are considered to have gathered too much power - the power of the word - and there is still within everyone a fear of those who have exhibited a mastery over words. So, do we have a choice as to whether or not, and more often the latter, we follow the social rules of other mortals? I ask this question because I don't think we do - either have a choice or follow the rules. So perhaps poets are closer to being schizophrenic than we might believe. Those of us who have not been categorized as such in a medical sense perhaps have learned to channel those tendencies to the page. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: October 27, 2007 11:23 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue This is really apples and oranges, Murat. Cancer as metaphor is actually pretty accurate--there's a destructive, madly replicating thing in the body politic. The use of schizophrenia as metaphor, on the other hand, is based on an inaccurate folk definition. We all (or mostly all) have different voices within us, probably an internalization of the imaginary friend of childhood. But schizophrenics, unlike non-schizophrenic poets, often don't have the privilege of following the social rules of other mortals. As Tracey and Gabe have pointed out, that's a pretty important privilege. Mark At 11:45 PM 10/26/2007, you wrote: >If anybody remembers Susan Sontag's book about cancer as a metaphor. She >violently objects to that kind of use. There is a big difference in the >meaning for those who know or suffer from the word literally and those who >are using it metaphorically. Of course, this kind of use goes on all the >time, for instance, "there is a cancer in your presidency," John Dean saying >it to Richard Nixon. > >References to creative acts have always been associated with aberrant >behavior of one kind or another: "to make of (give to) airy nothings a local >habitation and a name." Is that not the same as hearing voices. The poet >imagines them real; the poet makes them real -making others hear the same >voices. Nietche's conception of beyond good and evil, also, -that the hero >or poet are beyond social realities/restrictions- is that not also a kind of >imagining? > >I do not think the parallel between the poet and the schizophrenic is a >comparison of suffering, but of privilege. When we point to a similarity >between the schizophrenic and the poet, whom are we privileging, the former >or the latter? Are we saying that the schizophrenic possesses a certain >divine quality or that the poet possesses the privilege of not following >social rules followed by other mortals? > >Ciao, > >Murat > > >On 10/26/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > > dear tracey, thanks so much for this. there is schizophrenia in my > > family, and while i agree that a very different and amazing appreciation > > of meaning/words comes along with it, the terribly harsh parts of it, > > including the social isolation, are nothing to speak lightly of. all > > best, gabe > > > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > Thanks, John. > > > > > > I've been thinking about this all night. Of course, the "not your own" > > is > > > applicable to schizophrenia, as dissociative identity-- the "new" term > > for > > > multiple personality-- isn't necessarily about hearing voices that > > aren't > > > your own as much as disassociating from your self and taking on a > > completely > > > different personality and set of behaviors (think of Sybil, Eve, > > Rabbit), > > > which would have an entirely new and different meaning for poets. The > > > auditory hallucinations that are commonly a part of schizophrenia ARE > > > hearing voices that aren't your own--among other things. > > > > > > The issue I have with throwing these terms around is that I understand > > > the pain (and shame) that people experience in having schizophrenia, and > > my > > > concern relates to not wanting to show disrespect for people who are in > > pain > > > like that, particularly when there are many people who don't fully > > > understand the meaning of the term that they're using (and, decidedly, > > the > > > DSM changes so frequently that it's difficult to keep up with what terms > > > mean, etc.). I understand Spicer's aliens using the furniture in his > > room > > > in order to speak through him, and I appreciate that metaphor (and that > > it > > > doesn't refer to schizophrenia). And, I can appreciate a metaphor that > > > describes that urge that I have to write that sometimes doesn't feel > > like > > > myself, that sometimes feels outside myself ("alien"), that pulls me to > > my > > > notebook or keyboard and pours out of me. > > > > > > However, I, personally, am uncomfortable using a term that is so > > socially > > > loaded and misunderstood so as to cause people who suffer from "real" > > > auditory and visual hallucinations (and paranoia) to feel isolated and > > > rejected. (And, I write this as I sit at the hospital attempting to get > > > help for a patient who has been trying for years to live with her > > paranoia > > > but who is resigning herself to accept outside help, because she just > > can't > > > take it anymore-- even under these circumstances, she's not really ready > > to > > > accept what's happening with her). I think about the people I come into > > > contact with regularly when I hear the terms poetry and schizophrenia > > used > > > nearly synonymously. When in a social setting, I'm sure that not too > > many > > > poets would introduce themselves as "schizophrenic" (a term I am also > > loathe > > > to use, as there's so much more to a person than a mental health > > diagnosis) > > > because of the social reprecussions that would create. Sit back and > > imagine > > > how someone you've recently met might react if you say, "Oh, and I'm > > > schizophrenic. I have some books with me, if you want to look." People > > > already have a difficult time reacting appropriately when told we're > > > poets.... > > > > > > I am a poet. And, in a lot of ways, being a poet is complicated. What > > > compels me to write poetry that doesn't happen with my brother or other > > > family members? I don't know. I know that I don't hear voices that > > > "command" it of me (and, I've never encountered someone with voices that > > > would command something like writing poetry-- from the way I understand > > it, > > > the voices ask for something else). > > > > > > On some levels, I can understand the metaphor, but on many, I simply > > can't > > > accept it. Maybe I'm too close to people in crisis, and I just want to > > pull > > > them in under my blanket and protect them. To me, it's a convenient > > > metaphor in a lot of ways, but even in reflecting on Spicer's aliens, I > > see > > > it as different from what he described. My muse is in me, and in many > > ways, > > > is a part of me. My muse doesn't wish me harm, doesn't tell me I'd be > > > better off dead and give me ways to kill myself. My muse doesn't tell > > me > > > that everyone is looking at me and laughing. Nor does my muse tell me > > that > > > everyone hates me because I had my tarot cards read once eight years > > ago. > > > My muse seeks to help me identify with others, not to isolate me from > > > others. My muse helps me to share in the human experience and give to > > that > > > experience. This is not to say that all auditory hallucinations are > > exactly > > > like this, or that there aren't individuals who enjoy the company they > > > have. Some are much kinder-- "helpful" seeming. And, this is not to > > say > > > that there do not exist and have not existed people with schizophrenia > > who > > > are not poets (or painters, or sculptors, or other kinds of artists), > > > because we all know this isn't true. > > > > > > I'm thankful for my interactions with people with schizophrenia, because > > as > > > I said in the previous email, my poetry has been affected by those > > > interactions (I've been affected in other ways, too, but this is about > > > poetry). I've learned a lot about language and how to fit words and > > ideas > > > together in ways that were never available to me before. I've learned > > that > > > there are "other" ways of presenting complex ideas on the page, just > > from > > > conversations with the people I've encountered. I've learned to think > > > differently in some ways, because I've been granted new perspectives on > > the > > > mind and the way it produces thought. I'm thankful for that, and I try > > to > > > be respectful of that. > > > > > > I recognize that I've probably thought entirely too much about this (as > > I am > > > often accused of doing), but I thank you for the opportunity to clarify > > my > > > own difficulties with what I've been reading on here and in other > > places, > > > especially if you've made it this far in my rant! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/25/07, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > > > > > An interesting metaphor. And perhaps appropriate provided that > > > > schizophrenia > > > > is the hearing of voices. I was going to add 'not your own' but then > > we > > > > get > > > > into whether its multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia. If > > you > > > > read > > > > George Bowering or Jack Spicer, you will come across the concept of > > > > 'dictation', essentially the 'funnelling' of your 'muse' onto the page > > > > without active intervention on the poet's part. Something like the > > > > automatic > > > > writing of the surrealists - Breton, Artaud, etc. So, in that sense, > > if we > > > > are hearing a voice 'dictating' to us, then, yes, it is a very > > appropriate > > > > metaphor. > > > > John Cunningham > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On > > > > Behalf Of Tracey Gagne > > > > Sent: October 25, 2007 12:01 PM > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue > > > > > > > > I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between > > poetry > > > > and > > > > schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write > > poetry" > > > > kind of way. > > > > > > > > I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health profession > > and > > > > have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or so. These > > > > interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've > > never > > > > used > > > > the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do > > they > > > > seem > > > > synonymous to me. > > > > > > > > Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something > > else > > > > I'm > > > > missing. Can anyone help me with this? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am emotionally > > > > > disabled; > > > > > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear > > me. Abstraction > > > > > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of > > devices). Take > > > > > the > > > > > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but we > > > > > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, > > this is > > > > > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is fearsome! Now, so > > as > > > > > not > > > > > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: > > > > relevance. Why > > > > > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness > > over, > > > > > what?, > > > > > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing more > > than > > > > to > > > > > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're > > smart > > > > and > > > > > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very smart > > or > > > > very > > > > > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside > > one's > > > > > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic > > derivation > > > > > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, yes?), > > new > > > > > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, > > > > yeah?)--- > > > > > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily > > (summarily?) > > > > > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of > > one's > > > > > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to the > > > > soulless > > > > > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, inside. It's > > > > what > > > > > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable to > > make > > > > > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are the > > > > > original > > > > > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of > > outsiders > > > > > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is > > legitimately > > > > > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > > > 24/10/2007 > > > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > > > 24/10/2007 > > > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1095 - Release Date: 26/10/2007 7:54 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1095 - Release Date: 26/10/2007 7:54 PM ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:31:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CE Putnam Subject: CRAWLSPACE Book Launch & CD Release Party (Seattle,WA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Crawlspacelings,=0A=0A=0AAbout two years ago, in a wine shop at an und= isclosed location in Seattle, a poem known as Crawlspace first manifested i= tself--in its larval stage--as part of an evening of collaborative work in = the monthly Leg To Stand On reading series.=0A=0AIts authors, presumed misc= reants both, subsequently retreated to their hidden volcano barn on a namel= ess atoll somewhere in the Pacific, and there with arcane art further disti= lled the ectoplasmic emanations of that unspeakable text.=0A=0AAnd now, jus= t when you thought it was safe to attend orderly readings again, Crawlspace= is back to kick out the jams in book form! This limited edition package i= ncludes 3-D glasses (a must for digging the cover art) and that most trusty= of sidekicks, the Crawlspace Audio Companion CD. This new breed packs a r= elentless wallop--and seriously.=0A=0APlease mark your calendars and save t= he date for:=0A=0ACrawlspace Book Launch Reading & CD Release Party=0AFeatu= ring: Daniel Comiskey & C.E. Putnam=0ASunday, December 2, 2007 -- 7:30 pm= =0ARendezvous JewelBox Theater=0A2322 2nd Ave. -- Seattle, WA=0A=0AMore inf= ormation for the event and book project at:=0A=0Ahttp://www.pisor-industrie= s.org/crawlspace=0A=0APrintable Invite:=0Ahttp://www.pisor-industries.org/c= rawlspace/images/invite.gif=0A=0A=0AThere'll be no apron strings or Ouija b= oards between you and the=0Aaction.=0A=0ASea urchins by the jar!=0AGot 'em!= =0A=0AWalt Whitman found in spider hole!=0A=0AHeidegger's hand skewers tige= r!=0ADouglas Fairbanks pop quiz!=0A=0AAnd yes, the Hollerin' Champ finally = revealed!=0A=0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo Y= ou Yahoo!?=0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection aroun= d =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:11:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: recipes Comments: To: Chris Hamilton-Emery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear all: As many of you know, there is a chain e-mail regarding recipes currently making the rounds. I've encountered it previously through non-poets, and now a whopping six or seven times over the course of the past year from poets (more times from nonpoets). Now, perhaps this is my own fault, as I have been publishing collages of cookbook pages taken from the University of Michigan online archive. What say we 1) put out a poet's cookbook, either in print or on a blog, waiving the "easy ingredients" clause, in the vein of Ronald Johnson or of Alice B. Toklas, or Emily Dickinson, 2) stop sending the chain e-mails. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:57:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071027121625.062c0610@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark, If I remember correctly, in Illness and Metaphor(?) S. Sontag was questioning the moral validity of using sickness as metaphorical language since it involved real suffering. I wonder if she wrote that book when she discovered she had cancer. Underlying her question, I think, there is a deep -though not spelled out- questioning of the value of art. She does a similar thing when she questions war paintings or war photography. David pointed us all out to the very interesting and extended discussion of two photographs by Fenton of the Crimean war in the New York Times blog. That discussion also was kicked off with Sontag's assumption that a manipulation of the war scene by Fenton occurred in the taking of that photograph. In other words, underlying the usage of sickness or war language in relation to art has the issue of authenticity, legitimacy or power, rather than merely accuracy (mimesis), underlying it. I was speculating rather than defending any specific point of view. Ciao, Murat On 10/27/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > This is really apples and oranges, Murat. Cancer as metaphor is > actually pretty accurate--there's a destructive, madly replicating > thing in the body politic. The use of schizophrenia as metaphor, on > the other hand, is based on an inaccurate folk definition. > > We all (or mostly all) have different voices within us, probably an > internalization of the imaginary friend of childhood. But > schizophrenics, unlike non-schizophrenic poets, often don't have the > privilege of following the social rules of other mortals. As Tracey > and Gabe have pointed out, that's a pretty important privilege. > > Mark > > At 11:45 PM 10/26/2007, you wrote: > >If anybody remembers Susan Sontag's book about cancer as a metaphor. She > >violently objects to that kind of use. There is a big difference in the > >meaning for those who know or suffer from the word literally and those > who > >are using it metaphorically. Of course, this kind of use goes on all the > >time, for instance, "there is a cancer in your presidency," John Dean > saying > >it to Richard Nixon. > > > >References to creative acts have always been associated with aberrant > >behavior of one kind or another: "to make of (give to) airy nothings a > local > >habitation and a name." Is that not the same as hearing voices. The poet > >imagines them real; the poet makes them real -making others hear the same > >voices. Nietche's conception of beyond good and evil, also, -that the > hero > >or poet are beyond social realities/restrictions- is that not also a kind > of > >imagining? > > > >I do not think the parallel between the poet and the schizophrenic is a > >comparison of suffering, but of privilege. When we point to a similarity > >between the schizophrenic and the poet, whom are we privileging, the > former > >or the latter? Are we saying that the schizophrenic possesses a certain > >divine quality or that the poet possesses the privilege of not following > >social rules followed by other mortals? > > > >Ciao, > > > >Murat > > > > > >On 10/26/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > > > > dear tracey, thanks so much for this. there is schizophrenia in my > > > family, and while i agree that a very different and amazing > appreciation > > > of meaning/words comes along with it, the terribly harsh parts of it, > > > including the social isolation, are nothing to speak lightly of. all > > > best, gabe > > > > > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks, John. > > > > > > > > I've been thinking about this all night. Of course, the "not your > own" > > > is > > > > applicable to schizophrenia, as dissociative identity-- the "new" > term > > > for > > > > multiple personality-- isn't necessarily about hearing voices that > > > aren't > > > > your own as much as disassociating from your self and taking on a > > > completely > > > > different personality and set of behaviors (think of Sybil, Eve, > > > Rabbit), > > > > which would have an entirely new and different meaning for > poets. The > > > > auditory hallucinations that are commonly a part of schizophrenia > ARE > > > > hearing voices that aren't your own--among other things. > > > > > > > > The issue I have with throwing these terms around is that I > understand > > > > the pain (and shame) that people experience in having schizophrenia, > and > > > my > > > > concern relates to not wanting to show disrespect for people who are > in > > > pain > > > > like that, particularly when there are many people who don't fully > > > > understand the meaning of the term that they're using (and, > decidedly, > > > the > > > > DSM changes so frequently that it's difficult to keep up with what > terms > > > > mean, etc.). I understand Spicer's aliens using the furniture in > his > > > room > > > > in order to speak through him, and I appreciate that metaphor (and > that > > > it > > > > doesn't refer to schizophrenia). And, I can appreciate a metaphor > that > > > > describes that urge that I have to write that sometimes doesn't feel > > > like > > > > myself, that sometimes feels outside myself ("alien"), that pulls me > to > > > my > > > > notebook or keyboard and pours out of me. > > > > > > > > However, I, personally, am uncomfortable using a term that is so > > > socially > > > > loaded and misunderstood so as to cause people who suffer from > "real" > > > > auditory and visual hallucinations (and paranoia) to feel isolated > and > > > > rejected. (And, I write this as I sit at the hospital attempting to > get > > > > help for a patient who has been trying for years to live with her > > > paranoia > > > > but who is resigning herself to accept outside help, because she > just > > > can't > > > > take it anymore-- even under these circumstances, she's not really > ready > > > to > > > > accept what's happening with her). I think about the people I come > into > > > > contact with regularly when I hear the terms poetry and > schizophrenia > > > used > > > > nearly synonymously. When in a social setting, I'm sure that not > too > > > many > > > > poets would introduce themselves as "schizophrenic" (a term I am > also > > > loathe > > > > to use, as there's so much more to a person than a mental health > > > diagnosis) > > > > because of the social reprecussions that would create. Sit back and > > > imagine > > > > how someone you've recently met might react if you say, "Oh, and I'm > > > > schizophrenic. I have some books with me, if you want to > look." People > > > > already have a difficult time reacting appropriately when told we're > > > > poets.... > > > > > > > > I am a poet. And, in a lot of ways, being a poet is > complicated. What > > > > compels me to write poetry that doesn't happen with my brother or > other > > > > family members? I don't know. I know that I don't hear voices that > > > > "command" it of me (and, I've never encountered someone with voices > that > > > > would command something like writing poetry-- from the way I > understand > > > it, > > > > the voices ask for something else). > > > > > > > > On some levels, I can understand the metaphor, but on many, I simply > > > can't > > > > accept it. Maybe I'm too close to people in crisis, and I just want > to > > > pull > > > > them in under my blanket and protect them. To me, it's a convenient > > > > metaphor in a lot of ways, but even in reflecting on Spicer's > aliens, I > > > see > > > > it as different from what he described. My muse is in me, and in > many > > > ways, > > > > is a part of me. My muse doesn't wish me harm, doesn't tell me I'd > be > > > > better off dead and give me ways to kill myself. My muse doesn't > tell > > > me > > > > that everyone is looking at me and laughing. Nor does my muse tell > me > > > that > > > > everyone hates me because I had my tarot cards read once eight years > > > ago. > > > > My muse seeks to help me identify with others, not to isolate me > from > > > > others. My muse helps me to share in the human experience and give > to > > > that > > > > experience. This is not to say that all auditory hallucinations are > > > exactly > > > > like this, or that there aren't individuals who enjoy the company > they > > > > have. Some are much kinder-- "helpful" seeming. And, this is not > to > > > say > > > > that there do not exist and have not existed people with > schizophrenia > > > who > > > > are not poets (or painters, or sculptors, or other kinds of > artists), > > > > because we all know this isn't true. > > > > > > > > I'm thankful for my interactions with people with schizophrenia, > because > > > as > > > > I said in the previous email, my poetry has been affected by those > > > > interactions (I've been affected in other ways, too, but this is > about > > > > poetry). I've learned a lot about language and how to fit words and > > > ideas > > > > together in ways that were never available to me before. I've > learned > > > that > > > > there are "other" ways of presenting complex ideas on the page, just > > > from > > > > conversations with the people I've encountered. I've learned to > think > > > > differently in some ways, because I've been granted new perspectives > on > > > the > > > > mind and the way it produces thought. I'm thankful for that, and I > try > > > to > > > > be respectful of that. > > > > > > > > I recognize that I've probably thought entirely too much about this > (as > > > I am > > > > often accused of doing), but I thank you for the opportunity to > clarify > > > my > > > > own difficulties with what I've been reading on here and in other > > > places, > > > > especially if you've made it this far in my rant! > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/25/07, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > > > > > > > An interesting metaphor. And perhaps appropriate provided that > > > > > schizophrenia > > > > > is the hearing of voices. I was going to add 'not your own' but > then > > > we > > > > > get > > > > > into whether its multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia. > If > > > you > > > > > read > > > > > George Bowering or Jack Spicer, you will come across the concept > of > > > > > 'dictation', essentially the 'funnelling' of your 'muse' onto the > page > > > > > without active intervention on the poet's part. Something like the > > > > > automatic > > > > > writing of the surrealists - Breton, Artaud, etc. So, in that > sense, > > > if we > > > > > are hearing a voice 'dictating' to us, then, yes, it is a very > > > appropriate > > > > > metaphor. > > > > > John Cunningham > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto: > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > > On > > > > > Behalf Of Tracey Gagne > > > > > Sent: October 25, 2007 12:01 PM > > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue > > > > > > > > > > I've been reading quite a lot recently about connections between > > > poetry > > > > > and > > > > > schizophrenia, and not in a "people with schizophrenia who write > > > poetry" > > > > > kind of way. > > > > > > > > > > I'm curious about this. I'm recently in the mental health > profession > > > and > > > > > have met many people with schizophrenia in the past year or > so. These > > > > > interactions have definitely had an impact on my poetry, but I've > > > never > > > > > used > > > > > the two as synonyms, as they seem to be at the end of this, nor do > > > they > > > > > seem > > > > > synonymous to me. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I just don't "get" the metaphor.... Maybe there's something > > > else > > > > > I'm > > > > > missing. Can anyone help me with this? > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Tracey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/25/07, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, I'm Jesse, and you are afraid of me. One, I am > emotionally > > > > > > disabled; > > > > > > two, and moreover, I am abstract. You certainly fear > > > me. Abstraction > > > > > > creates orders of magnitude in fear (that most useful of > > > devices). Take > > > > > > the > > > > > > devil, for instance, who cannot be met, and will not be met, but > we > > > > > > **might. We might meet hell. I could. You couldn't? You see, > > > this is > > > > > > easy. You won't meet me, but you might. That is > fearsome! Now, so > > > as > > > > > > not > > > > > > to lose your attention, let's talk about the magic r-word: > > > > > relevance. Why > > > > > > are you relevant? Inside, you know all this jabber of goodness > > > over, > > > > > > what?, > > > > > > badness?--- is stupid. It means nothing, definitely nothing > more > > > than > > > > > to > > > > > > create orders of magnitude in fear, by which you may-- if you're > > > smart > > > > > and > > > > > > fast enough-- capitalize upon; which most of us are not very > smart > > > or > > > > > very > > > > > > fast, neither instinctively or intellectually. In fact, outside > > > one's > > > > > > community, ours namely poetry, or whatever trendy, scholastic > > > derivation > > > > > > from which you feel comfortable with--- new brutalism (funny, > yes?), > > > new > > > > > > sincerity (I don't get it, either.), new post-avantism (you dig, > > > > > yeah?)--- > > > > > > yes, these are dumb derivations by which you may binarily > > > (summarily?) > > > > > > oppose, or be conducted through, like a current------ Outside of > > > one's > > > > > > community, looking in, the disctinction from the bona fide to > the > > > > > soulless > > > > > > is always a tough distinction to make. You know this, > inside. It's > > > > > what > > > > > > you fear, as part of a community, outsiders looking in, unable > to > > > make > > > > > > adequate classification. Moreover, in poetry, as we poets are > the > > > > > > original > > > > > > artists and, hence, will be the first to go, we are afraid of > > > outsiders > > > > > > looking in.. best classify it fear of poetry, or as it is > > > legitimately > > > > > > called, schizophrenia. Now, as ever, more than ever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > > > > 24/10/2007 > > > > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: > > > > > 24/10/2007 > > > > > 2:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:06:57 -0700 Reply-To: matvei yankelevich Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "this rare US appearance by". Rest of header flushed. From: matvei yankelevich Subject: Lev Rubinstein reading in Boston and elsewhere Comments: To: Matvei Yankelevich MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lev Rubins= please spread the word about =0Athis rare US appearance by =0A=0ALev Rubins= tein=0A=0ASaturday, November 10, 7 p.m.=0Aat Pierre Menard Gallery=0A10 Arr= ow Street, Cambridge =0A(Harvard Square, up Arrow Street from Cafe Pamplona= ).=0AENTRY =3D $10 to benefit the author. =0A[*for other US appearances se= e bottom of message]=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A Born in 1= 941 and considered to be one of the founders of Moscow=0A Co= nceptualism, Lev Rubinstein is among Russia's most well known=0A = contemporary=0A poets living today. His work is mostly = conceived=0A as series of index cards, a poetic medium which= he was inspired=0A to create through his work as a libraria= n. His work was circulated=0A through samizdat and undergrou= nd readings in the "unofficial" art=0A scene of the sixties = and seventies, and found wide publication=0A only in the lat= e 1980s. Rubinstein lives in Moscow and writes=0A cultural c= riticism for the independent media. =0A=0A=0A =0A=93As a fou= nding proponent and leading member of Moscow=0AConceptualism, Rubinstein tu= rned international Conceptualism of the=0A1960s and 1970s, in which art was= presented in the form of documents,=0Ainto a major Russian literary moveme= nt based on a sophisticated play=0Awith borrowed styles and quotations=94. = Andrew Wachtel, Northwestern=0AUniversity professor of Russian literature,= said, "Lev Rubinstein is=0Athe true heir of the OBERIU artists of the late= 1920s. Like his most=0Aillustrious predecessor, Daniil Kharms, Rubinstein = creates deadly serious, devastatingly funny comedy that incorporates a broa= d range of literary forms=94. =97Gerald Janecek, University of Kentucky= =0A=0APRAISE FOR CATALOGUE OF COMEDIC NOVELTIES (Ugly Duckling Presse 2004)= :=0A=0A"Lev Rubinstein's note-card poems, here transcribed=0A = for the page and imaginatively translated by Philip Metres=0A = and Tatiana Tulchinsky, are an eye-opener! Their particular=0A = brand of conceptualism has affinities with our own Langu= age=0A poetry as well as with the French Oulipo, but its= inflections=0A are purely those of contemporary Russia= =97a country struggling=0A to make sense to itself after= decades of repression...We=0A can literally read betwee= n the lines and construct a world=0A of great pathos, hu= mor=97and a resigned disillusionment=0A that will strike a= resonant chord among American readers." =0A=97Marjorie Perloff=0A = =0A =0A =0A"Lev Rubinstein's Ca= talogue of Comedic=0A Novelties is a poetry of changing = parts that ensnares the=0A evanescent uncanniness of the= everyday. By means of rhythmically=0A foregrounding a c= entral device=97the basic unit of work=0A is the index c= ard=97Rubinstein continuously makes actual=0A a flickeri= ng now time that is both intimate and strange.=0A Metres= and Tulchinsky have created an engaging translation=0A = of a major work of contemporary Russian poetry. In the process,=0A = they have created a poem "in the American" and=0A = in the tradition of seriality associated with Charles Reznikoff=0A = and Robert Grenier." =0A =97Charles Bernstein=0A=0A = =0A =0A =0A = =0A"The major work by a major poet, one=0A of the founde= rs of Moscow Conceptualism, and aptly translated.=0A The= re is no question that this is one of the 'must have'=0A = [poetry] books of 2004..." =97Ron Silliman =0A=0A=0A=0A = =0A"Lev Rubinstein is the true heir=0A of the OBERIU art= ists of the late 1920s. Like his most illustrious=0A pre= decessor, Daniil=0A Kharms, Rubinstein creates deadly = serious, devastatingly=0A funny comedy that incorporat= es a broad range of literary=0A forms. In the precise = translations of Philip Metres and=0A Tatiana Tulchinsky,= this witty and elegant work is available=0A to an=0A = English-language public in its full glory for the first= =0A time." =0A =97Andrew Wachtel =0A=0A=0A=0ARubinstein = is also a regular columnist for the independent online=0Anewspaper =93Grani= =94, and his short essays can be found at=0Avarious websites. =0A =0A =0A= =0A You can find more to read here:=0A =0Ahttp://www.vavilon.= ru/texts/rubinstein/=0A =0Ahttp://www.stengazeta.net/author.html?id=3D5=0A= =0Ahttp://www.grani.ru/Culture/essay/rubinstein/=0A =0Ahttp://www.itogi.= ru/collect.nsf/Article/rubin.html=0A=0ALEV RUBINSTEIN will also be appearin= g in other cities across the US.=0AHere's a schedule:=0A=0ANOVEMBER 7th =0A= @ Georgetown Univ., Washington DC=0A=0ANOVEMBER 9th=0A@ Dartmouth College, = New Hampshire=0A=0ANOVEMBER 10=0A@ Pierre Menard Gallery, Lame Duck Books, = Harcard Sq., Cambridge MA=0A=0ANOVEMBER 12th=0A@ Amherst College, Amherst, = MA=0A=0ANOVEMBER 13th=0A@ Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT=0A=0ANOVEMBER= 18th at 1:30pm=0A@ Brooklyn Public Library, Brooklyn, NY=0A=0ANOVEMBER 18t= h at 6pm=0A@ Bowery Poetry Club (Memorial Reading for D. A. Prigov), New Yo= rk City=0A=0A=0A =0A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:23:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: if you were teaching this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A belated thanks for the great suggestions both front- and backchannel. Am really looking forward to sharing the work you suggested with my students next semester. Thank you sincerely. Gabe ---------------------------------- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:25:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > What say we 1) put out a poet's cookbook, either in print or on a > blog, waiving the "easy ingredients" clause, in the vein of Ronald > Johnson or of Alice B. Toklas, Have you priced *her* special ingredient lately? It's not quite, how do we say, economically inclusive. Gwyn (And then you need to handle it with a pot holder) McVay ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:04:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Margaret Konkol Subject: Kyle Schlesinger Lecture Monday October 29: "Small Press in the Archive" Lecture Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please join us this Monday, October 29th for "The Letterpress in the Mimeo Revolution," a lecture by Dr. Kyle Schlesinger. This talk will take place at 12 noon in The Poetry Collection, 420 Capen. _Small Press in the Archive_Lecture Series dedicates itself to the study of poetry outside the traditional literary historical plot. The lectures in this series draw on materials in The Poetry Collection, at SUNY Buffalo in order to explore community/discourse formations, the status of ephemera and the making of genre, the conditions of literary production, transatlantic cross-pollinations in and between specific magazines, the careers of poets, the role of book art, and how the little magazine functions in the making of the avant-garde. This event is funded by the Mildred Lockwood Lacey Fund for Poetry/The Poetry Collection and is free and open to the public. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 20:54:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Tuesday! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Boog City presents =20 d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press =20 Talisman House Press (Jersey City, N.J.) =20 Tues. Oct. 30, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free =20 ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC =20 Featuring readings from =20 Figen Bingul John High Joel Lewis Stephen Paul Miller Paul Doru Mugur Janet Rodney =20 and music from =20 So L'il Wine, cheese, and crackers. =20 Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum =20 ------ =20 **Talisman House Talisman, one of the most respected and productive small press=20 publishers dealing in literary works, was founded in 1988. The press=20 began with the publication of the biannual journal, Talisman, described=20 in MultiCultural Review as "kaleidoscopic =C2=8A eclectic =C2=8A fermenting= with=20 a thousand tongues" and in Small Press as "a serious forum for the best=20 of American poetry and poetics." =20 The journal's success led to the publication of books, beginning with National Book Award winner William Bronk's The Mild Day and Alice=20 Notley's Selected Poems in 1993. Distinguished works in poetry,=20 fiction, theory, and criticism followed. Among the earliest works=20 published were Jack Spicer's novel The Tower of Babel, which some=20 thought he had never completed but which was accidentally discovered in=20 the early 1990s in a trunk of his manuscripts. Other important works=20 included Leslie Scalapino's novel The Return of Painting, Gustaf=20 Sobin's selected poems, and new books by Joel Lewis, Michael Heller, John High, Paul Hoover, Stephen Jonas, Gerrit Lansing, Timothy Liu, Samuel Menashe, Alice Notley, Geoffrey O=C2=B9Brien,= =20 Douglas Oliver, Simon Pettet, Leslie Scalapino, Andrew Schelling, and=20 Leonard Schwartz. =20 Among the many books scheduled for publication this fall and early next=20 year are The Collected Poems of Gustaf Sobin; The Collected Poems of=20 William Bronk; Zhang Er's anthology of contemporary Chinese Poetry,=20 Another Kind of Nation; and new books by Joel Lewis, Stephen Paul=20 Miller, and Serge Gavronsky. Talisman will also be publishing Figen=20 Bingul=C2=B9s translation of Summer's End by Adalet Agaoglu, who is widely= =20 regarded as one of the major novelists of our time. =20 =20 *Overall Performer Bios* =20 **Figen Bingul http://lightmillennium.org/2004_newyear/tozlu_snow.html Figen Bingul is a translator from English to Turkish and Turkish to=20 English. A recent graduate of Purchase College, SUNY, she has=20 established impressive credentials as a translator with Rabia's Return=20 (Istanbul, 2005), a short work of fiction by the great Turkish writer=20 Adalet Agaoglu from Turkish, and (working from English to Turkish)=20 Along the Danube: Memories with Melodies, Memoirs of Eugenia=20 Popescu-Judetz and Absurdistan, a novel by Gary Shteyngart. She has=20 translated Summer=C2=B9s End, a major novel by Adalet Agaoglu to be=20 published later this year by Talisman. "Snow," her translation of a=20 short story by Tezer Ozlu=C2=B9s can be found at the above url. =20 **John High http://www.zoominfo.com/people/High_John_3701867.aspx John High is the author of eight books, including his award-winning=20 (Village Voice top 25 books of the year) trilogy of poetic novels The=20 Desire Notebooks and his recently published book-length poem, Here=20 (Talisman) and novel, Talking God's Radio Show (Spuytenduyvil). He has=20 received four Fulbrights, two NEAs, and writing awards from the Witter=20 Bynner Foundation, Arts International, and the Academy of American=20 Poets, among others. A translator of several books of contemporary=20 Russian poetry, he was the chief editor for Crossing Centuries: The New Russian Poetry (Talisman). He is=20 also the founding and former editor of Five Fingers Review. High lives=20 in Brooklyn with his daughter and teaches writing and literature at=20 Long Island University. =20 **Joel Lewis http://jacketmagazine.com/28/lewis-j.html Joel Lewis, when not doing battle with the truants on Staten Island in=20 his guise as a mild-mannered social worker, can be found criss-crossing=20 the Jersey landscape via bus, train, and light rail=C2=8Btransfers and=20 tickets in pocket and an unlined, softback, Moleskine notebook at the=20 ready with a Waterman rollerball pen in his right hand. His previous=20 books of poetry include House Rent Boogie and Vertical=C2=B9s Currency=20 (Talisman). He has edited the anthology of contemporary New Jersey=20 poets, Bluestones and Salt=20 Hay, as well as the selected poems of Walter Lowenfels and the selected=20 talks of Ted Berrigan, both for Talisman. For better or worse, he=20 initiated the now-defunct New Jersey Poet Laureate post. Talisman is=20 publishing his new book, Learning from New Jersey, this fall. =20 **Stephen Paul Miller http://mipoesias.blogspot.com/2007/05/stephen-paul-miller.html Stephen Paul Miller is the author of the Being with a Bullet (to be published this fall by Talisman), The Seventies Now: Culture as=20 Surveillance (Duke University Press), The Bee Flies in May (Marsh Hawk=20 Press), Skinny Eighth Avenue (Marsh Hawk Press), and Art Is Boring for=20 the Same Reason We Stayed in Vietnam (Domestic). He co-edited Scene of=20 My Selves: New Work on the New York School Poets (National Poetry=20 Foundation) and a forthcoming collection for the University of Alabama=20 Press. He has been a senior Fulbright lecturer at Jagiellonian=20 University in Krakow, Poland, and is=20 a professor of English at St. John=C2=B9s University in New York City, wher= e=20 he lives with his son Noah. =20 **Paul Doru Mugur http://www.respiro.org/ Paul Doru Mugur is a translator, editor, and writer. He is the=20 celebrated author of works of fiction, poetry, essays, and literary and=20 art criticism. The Shield of Perseus was published in 1999. His short=20 fiction has been anthologized, and his translations from Romanian,=20 Spanish, and French have been widely published. Among the poets he has=20 translated are Mihai Eminescu, Octavio Paz, Cesar Vallejo, Roque=20 Dalton, Rene Char, and Roger Gilbert-Lecomte. He is the founding editor=20 of Respiro, a multi-lingual quarterly cultural magazine, where examples=20 of his translations and original works can also be found. He co-edited=20 Born in Utopia: An Anthology of Contemporary Romanian Poetry for=20 Talisman. =20 **Janet Rodney http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/material/three/rodney/index.htm Janet Rodney is a digital artist, poet, and letterpress printer living=20 in Santa Fe, New Mexico with her husband Nathaniel Tarn. Limited=20 edition books published by her press, Weaselsleeves, of authors such as=20 Susan Howe, Lyn Hejinian, and Rina Swentzell are in fine print and rare=20 book collections across the country, and she has had several major=20 exhibits of her work as a letterpress printer. As a poet, she has=20 published six books of poetry; Chameleon's Cadmium, Crystals,=20 Orphydice, The Book of Craving, Moon on an Oarblade Rowing, and=20 Terminal Colors: New and Selected Poems (Talisman). Her work has=20 appeared widely in literary magazines such as Conjunctions, First=20 Intensity, Hambone, Ribot, Sulfur, and Talisman. =20 **So L'il http://solil.net http://www.myspace.com/solil So L'il is grace. In the last five years So L'il has released a six-song self-titled EP, one split 7-inch with the band Timesbold (both on Neko=20 Records), and the full-lengths Revolution Thumpin and Dear Kathy (both=20 on Goodbye Better). Currently finishing up a new album (A Glittering=20 Facade), recorded at Emandee, 2007 also saw So L'il featured on White=20 Label Music's Electronic Bible 3. They have a trio of new tunes flying=20 down on the Goodbye Better compilation Weird Terrain later this fall. =20 ---- =20 Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://www.welcometoboogcity.com T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:55:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Chan Subject: Poetry Sz:demystifying mental illness new issue online now Comments: To: Women Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Issue 24 of Poetry Sz:demystifying mental illness ( http://poetrysz.blogspot.com ) is now online. It features work by: Mark Lamoureux Lois Marie Harrod Sam Silva Eve Rifkah Christopher Barnes Roger Singer David McLean Submissions now open for the next issue. Send 4-6 poems and a short bio to poetrysz@yahoo.com . Please read the submission guidelines before submitting. Thank you. regards J Chan editor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:19:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: drawnbird at mcm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Drawn Song Bird song halved and extended. So near the building, this one beautiful bird. http://www.asondheim.org/drawnbird.mp3 Halved and lowered, the echo of the bird against brick and stone. I haven't heard these sounds. Organizing avatar video for a conference next week; the work is translucent, neither deep-time nor anything more than surface. I can't get anywhere beyond the surface. If I do sex or violence I get a rise, at least something emotional. Some talk about death, war, wounded avatars beneath the surface of the prim-rosed sea. If I don't, well then, there's always the dawn-drawn bird-cry, neither falcon nor osprey, eagle or mountebank crow. Settle for that rather than some avatar deep-protocol other. At least you won't fall in love. All over again. " artist, artiste, belly dancer, blagueur, bluff, bluffer, burlesque queen, charlatan, cheat, chorine, chorus boy, chorus girl, con man, confidence man, conjurer, coryphee, dancer, dancing girl, defrauder, ecdysiast, entertainer, exotic dancer, fake, faker, female impersonator, flimflammer, fourflusher, fraud, geisha, geisha girl, guisard, guiser, gyp, hoofer, humbug, impersonator, impostor, magician, malingerer, mummer, musician, nautch girl, peeler, performer, phony, poser, poseur, prestidigitator, pretender, public entertainer, quack, quacksalver, quackster, ringer, saltimbanco, sham, shammer, sharper, show girl, singer, stripper, stripteaser, stripteuse, vaudevillian, vaudevillist " ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 21:45:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Bypassing censorship - suggestions on proxy-servers In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Am wondering if anyone might be able to suggest proxy-servers that can be used to gain access to information via the web. In Asia and lots currently unavailable for viewing where am. bangdrum -- Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an unladen european swallow ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 06:33:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 26 Oct 2007 to 27 Oct 2007 (#2007-300) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 12:22:35 -0400 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue This is really apples and oranges, Murat. Cancer as metaphor is actually pretty accurate--there's a destructive, madly replicating thing in the body politic. To Mark-- The problem with using cancer as a metaphor is in that the focus goes to the disease itself and not to the way it is being treated for the treatments are worse than the disease itself and we are distracted by metaphors for the treatment is the biggest problem and the fact that "progress" has not been made (in the least/ don't believe it) so using cancer as a metaphor is just replicating a false illusion that the disease is in the body when most of it exists within the fact that the egos which preserve the practices which do not work/do not heal/ are set free through this illusion while the cancer patients die. Bobbi ? ? = ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:41:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 26 Oct 2007 to 27 Oct 2007 (#2007-300) In-Reply-To: <8C9E7650F1C6773-4BC-4AF8@WEBMAIL-MC15.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bobbi: I'm truly not committed to this or any other metaphor--they mostly pass by without landing in consciousness after they've been used a couple of times. And they're always of limited accuracy, as one thing never is another. I don't think that its metaphoric use has any impact at all on the treatment of real cancers, however, and I doubt that anyone mistakes cancer-as-metaphor for the disease. At the very least, most of us have more than ample experience of the real thing, in our own bodies or in the bodies of people we love. But your characterization of treatment sounds an awful lot like the workings of the body-politic. Try this: If Saddam's regime was a cancer, its treatment has been worse than the disease. The egomaniacs in charge have insisted on practices which do not work/do not heal, while the patient dies. But back to physical reality for a moment. According to medical folklore, the greater the mortality rate of a particular disease the weirder the doctors get. My experience with neurologists during a long bout of epilepsy (which passed of its own accord) tends to support this. One was loonier than the next, including a couple who spoke of themselves in the third person. I remember one in particular, Eli Goldensohn, head of the Neurological Institute at Columbia Presbyterian, who was the perfect mad scientist of movies. Maybe it's the despair that comes of being able to help such a small percentage of patients that sends them around the bend or maybe they were born that way or maybe only doctors who have a character disorder that helps them compensate for relative powerlessness choose to specialize in neurology. They were often simply wrong in their statements. I was repeatedly told, for instance, that adult onset seizures rarely go away, but I kept meeting people (tho only a minority) who had had exactly that experience. The doctors believed what they were saying, and they could back it up with unfortunately very bad science--they really didn't know what happened to their patients, as most who did recover spontaneously simply broke off contact, and there was no long-term follow-up. I also read the journals, where I encountered incredibly sloppy studies that failed to account for the most obvious variables. The treatment--antispasmodics of various kinds--for most people produce bearable side-effects, but for perhaps 40% the side effects are indeed worse than the disease (I was one of those), and I had the sense that the doctors were treating the disease and not the patient. The doctors were usually floundering in the dark. For most epileptics they can demonstrate where a brain is misfiring but can find no cause. But I never had reason to doubt that they wished they could do better, if not for the patients as suffering humanity then at least as experimental subjects. I think the same is true of oncologists, most of whom really would like to have better, less destructive treatments to offer, which is why they continue to experiment. Like the rest of us, most oncologists are likely to have loved-ones who have had cancer, and like all of us, the threat of cancer hangs over their heads. Mark At 06:33 AM 10/28/2007, you wrote: >Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 12:22:35 -0400 >From: Mark Weiss >Subject: Re: Fear and Relevance -- a prologue > >This is really apples and oranges, Murat. Cancer as metaphor is >actually pretty accurate--there's a destructive, madly replicating >thing in the body politic. > > >To Mark-- > >The problem with using cancer as a metaphor is in that the focus goes >to the disease itself and not to the way it is being treated for the >treatments are worse than the disease itself and we are distracted by >metaphors for the treatment is the biggest problem and the fact that >"progress" has not been made (in the least/ don't believe it) so using >cancer as a metaphor is just replicating a false illusion that the disease >is in the body when most of it exists within the fact that the egos which >preserve the practices which do not work/do not heal/ are set free through >this illusion while the cancer patients die. >Bobbi > >? > >? > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL >Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:59:33 +0000 Reply-To: editor@fulcrumpoetry.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Subject: Definitive Kharms in English MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For all you lovers of Daniil Kharms who read him in English, here finally= is the definitive book -- Today I wrote Nothing: The Selected Writings o= f Daniil Kharms, translated by Matvei Yankelevich (The Overlook Press, 20= 07). The principal translator (who incidentally is the grandson of Academ= ician Andrei Sakharov, the famous Soviet dissident many of you may rememb= er) is an important writer, poet and publisher based in New York City, an= d America's top authority on Kharms. He is perfectly bilingual, displays = tremendous taste and sensitivity, and has spent a couple of decades worki= ng on this volume. This book is the shiznit: I honestly don't believe the= re has been or will ever be better Kharms in English. http://www.overlookpress.com/book-detail.php?book_isbn=3D1-58567-743-4 (Also available on the various Amazons.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip Nikolayev, Coeditor-in-Chief FULCRUM: AN ANNUAL OF POETRY AND AESTHETICS 334 Harvard Street, Suite D-2 Cambridge, MA 02139, USA http://fulcrumpoetry.com phone +1.617.864.7874 e-mail editor{AT}fulcrumpoetry.com personal http://www.myspace.com/nikolayev Letters from Aldenderry: http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844712796.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:19:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: two readings with Ira Cohen bay area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, November 11, 7 pm Ira Cohen and Michael Rothenberg Beat Museum 540 Broadway (at Columbus) San Francisco, CA contact: 1-800-537-6822 -------------------------- Monday, November 12, 7:30 pm Ira Cohen reading with Michael Rothenberg and Louise Landes Levi Moe's Books 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley CA 94704 Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge http://www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:09:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: new on rhubarb is susan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Dear all, New material up on rhubarb is susan this week -- "science porn" and a response to Juliana Spahr and Stephanie Young's article in the just-released issue of Chicago Review: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/10/response-to-juliana-spahr-and-stephanie.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/10/response-to-juliana-spahr-and-stephanie.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/ Thanks for tuning in, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:20:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Here's the recipe for my super-deluxe elderflower cheesecake. The only thing sweeter is my new book, Shy Green fields, just out from No Tell Books, copies of which can be found at lulu.com. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Elderflower Cheesecake Crust 1 1/4 cups flour 1/4 cup Sugar 1/2 teaspoon salt 1 teaspoon elderflower jelly 1/2 cup sweet butter 1 egg yolk 2 tablespoons St. Germain liqueur Mix flour, sugar, salt, and elderflower jelly in the bowl of a food processor, pulse a couple times. Add butter in pieces, then pulse until mixture resembles coarse meal. Add yolk and St. Germain, pulse until a ball forms. Press pastry dough over the bottom and up the sides of a nine inch spring-form pan. Put the pan on a cookie sheet and bake in a preheated 350 degree oven for 15 minutes, until dry but not brown. Filling 30 ounces of ricotta cheese 6 ounces mascarpone cheese 4 eggs 1/2 cup sugar 1/4 cup flour 1/4 cup St. Germain liqueur 4 tablespoons elderflower jelly Blend cheeses, eggs, sugar and flour in a biggish bowl. Stir in St. Germain and elderflower jelly. Pour the filling into the crust, place the pan on a cookie sheet and bake in a preheated oven at 325 degrees for an hour or until a tester comes out clean. Let cool, chill and serve. Catherine Daly wrote: Dear all: As many of you know, there is a chain e-mail regarding recipes currently making the rounds. I've encountered it previously through non-poets, and now a whopping six or seven times over the course of the past year from poets (more times from nonpoets). Now, perhaps this is my own fault, as I have been publishing collages of cookbook pages taken from the University of Michigan online archive. What say we 1) put out a poet's cookbook, either in print or on a blog, waiving the "easy ingredients" clause, in the vein of Ronald Johnson or of Alice B. Toklas, or Emily Dickinson, 2) stop sending the chain e-mails. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:29:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Re: bypassing censorship MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hello Alex, anonymouse.org. I believe this works in both Pakistan and China, where there is government censorship of google's blogspot system. It will also work for people in countries, like the United States, who rely on employers and ISPs to censor things. I sometimes see people visiting rhubarb is susan via anonymouse, and it makes me feel rather proud. Definitely be aware that both these countries (Pakistan and China) have a sort of roaming censorship. Things go up, things go down. Different IP addresses in the same country have different restrictions, and I believe many proxies sort of play a wack-a-mole game. The OpenNet initaitve (google it) has an enormous amount of detail on the censorship of the internet in different countries, and may also be a good point of reference. Yours, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:44:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Re: bypassing censorship In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I should add (sorry for the posts here) that people need to be careful. Some censorship works by simply blocking an IP address. Some censorship works by content -- i.e., an IP address can be contacted, but the system will block it from transmitting "banned" words like "Tiananmen", and possibly record your attempt. If you are worried about your web habits being monitored by a third party, and in particular if you are worried about the *content* being monitored, you need to make sure that the proxy you are using has rigorous encryption. Searching for "encrypted web proxy" might turn up helpful material. This is true for users worried about government interception, but also goes double for people accessing the web from a computer at their place of work. On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Simon DeDeo wrote: > > Hello Alex, > > anonymouse.org. I believe this works in both Pakistan and China, where there > is government censorship of google's blogspot system. It will also work for > people in countries, like the United States, who rely on employers and ISPs > to censor things. > > I sometimes see people visiting rhubarb is susan via anonymouse, and it makes > me feel rather proud. Definitely be aware that both these countries (Pakistan > and China) have a sort of roaming censorship. Things go up, things go down. > Different IP addresses in the same country have different restrictions, and I > believe many proxies sort of play a wack-a-mole game. > > The OpenNet initaitve (google it) has an enormous amount of detail on the > censorship of the internet in different countries, and may also be a good > point of reference. > > Yours, > > Simon > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:01:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina E Lovin Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: <946803.40038.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just made a new folder in my "IN" Box...Recipes! This sounds delicious, Hugh. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: recipes Hi all, Here's the recipe for my super-deluxe elderflower cheesecake. The only thing sweeter is my new book, Shy Green fields, just out from No Tell Books, copies of which can be found at lulu.com. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Elderflower Cheesecake Crust 1 1/4 cups flour 1/4 cup Sugar 1/2 teaspoon salt 1 teaspoon elderflower jelly 1/2 cup sweet butter 1 egg yolk 2 tablespoons St. Germain liqueur Mix flour, sugar, salt, and elderflower jelly in the bowl of a food processor, pulse a couple times. Add butter in pieces, then pulse until mixture resembles coarse meal. Add yolk and St. Germain, pulse until a ball forms. Press pastry dough over the bottom and up the sides of a nine inch spring-form pan. Put the pan on a cookie sheet and bake in a preheated 350 degree oven for 15 minutes, until dry but not brown. Filling 30 ounces of ricotta cheese 6 ounces mascarpone cheese 4 eggs 1/2 cup sugar 1/4 cup flour 1/4 cup St. Germain liqueur 4 tablespoons elderflower jelly Blend cheeses, eggs, sugar and flour in a biggish bowl. Stir in St. Germain and elderflower jelly. Pour the filling into the crust, place the pan on a cookie sheet and bake in a preheated oven at 325 degrees for an hour or until a tester comes out clean. Let cool, chill and serve. Catherine Daly wrote: Dear all: As many of you know, there is a chain e-mail regarding recipes currently making the rounds. I've encountered it previously through non-poets, and now a whopping six or seven times over the course of the past year from poets (more times from nonpoets). Now, perhaps this is my own fault, as I have been publishing collages of cookbook pages taken from the University of Michigan online archive. What say we 1) put out a poet's cookbook, either in print or on a blog, waiving the "easy ingredients" clause, in the vein of Ronald Johnson or of Alice B. Toklas, or Emily Dickinson, 2) stop sending the chain e-mails. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: <000101c819be$e1667cd0$a4337670$@lovin@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit where can one get elderflower jelly/jam? Christina E Lovin wrote: > I just made a new folder in my "IN" Box...Recipes! This sounds delicious, > Hugh. > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:20 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: recipes > > Hi all, > > Here's the recipe for my super-deluxe elderflower cheesecake. The only > thing sweeter is my new book, Shy Green fields, just out from No Tell Books, > copies of which can be found at lulu.com. > > Hugh Behm-Steinberg > > > Elderflower Cheesecake > > > Crust > > > 1 1/4 cups flour > 1/4 cup Sugar > 1/2 teaspoon salt > 1 teaspoon elderflower jelly > 1/2 cup sweet butter > 1 egg yolk > 2 tablespoons St. Germain liqueur > > Mix flour, sugar, salt, and elderflower jelly in the bowl of a food > processor, pulse a couple times. Add butter in pieces, then pulse until > mixture resembles coarse meal. Add yolk and St. Germain, pulse until a ball > forms. Press pastry dough over the bottom and up the sides of a nine inch > spring-form pan. Put the pan on a cookie sheet and bake in a preheated 350 > degree oven for 15 minutes, until dry but not brown. > > Filling > > 30 ounces of ricotta cheese > 6 ounces mascarpone cheese > 4 eggs > 1/2 cup sugar > 1/4 cup flour > 1/4 cup St. Germain liqueur > 4 tablespoons elderflower jelly > > Blend cheeses, eggs, sugar and flour in a biggish bowl. Stir in St. Germain > and elderflower jelly. Pour the filling into the crust, place the pan on a > cookie sheet and bake in a preheated oven at 325 degrees for an hour or > until a tester comes out clean. Let cool, chill and serve. > > > Catherine Daly wrote: Dear all: > > As many of you know, there is a chain e-mail regarding recipes > currently making the rounds. I've encountered it previously through > non-poets, and now a whopping six or seven times over the course of > the past year from poets (more times from nonpoets). Now, perhaps > this is my own fault, as I have been publishing collages of cookbook > pages taken from the University of Michigan online archive. > > What say we 1) put out a poet's cookbook, either in print or on a > blog, waiving the "easy ingredients" clause, in the vein of Ronald > Johnson or of Alice B. Toklas, or Emily Dickinson, 2) stop sending the > chain e-mails. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 22:22:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: This Friday at Small Press Traffic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Kevin Killian & Joseph Lease Friday, November 2, 2007 Timken Lecture Hall 7:30 p.m. Refreshments will be served Whenever Kevin Killian reads at SPT, it's its own kind of homecoming and good things are sure to happen. Killian is a poet, novelist, critic and playwright whose works include a book of reviews Selected Amazon Reviews (2006), a collection of poetry, Argento Series (2001), two novels, Shy (1989) and Arctic Summer (1997), a book of memoirs, Bedrooms Have Windows (1989), and two books of stories, Little Men (1996) and I Cry Like a Baby (2001). He has also edited a collection of short stories by the late Sam D'Allesandro, The Wild Creatures ( 2005). For the San Francisco Poets Theater Killian has written over thirty plays, including Stone Marmalade (1996, with Leslie Scalapino) and Often (2001, with Barbara Guest). His writing has been said to have "tilted the world a little more askew, giving us a prismatic perspective on love, sexuality, and aesthetics." Come hear for yourself! Joseph Lease's critically acclaimed books of poetry include Broken World (Coffee House Press) and Human Rights (Zoland Books, 1998). His poem "'Broken World' (For James Assatly)" was selected for The Best American Poetry 2002 (Scribner, 2002). His poems have also been featured on NPR and published in The AGNI 30th Anniversary Poetry Anthology, VQR, Bay Poetics, Paris Review, and elsewhere. Of Broken World Marjorie Perloff wrote: "The poems in Joseph Lease's Broken World are as cool as they are passionate, as soft-spoken as they are indignant, and as fiercely Romantic as they are formally contained. Whether writing an elegy for a friend who died of AIDS or playing complex variations on Rilke's Duino Elegies ("If I cried out, / Who among the angelic orders would / Slap my face, who would steal my / Lunch money"), Lease has complete command of his poetic materials. His poems are spellbinding in their terse and ironic authority: Yes, the reader feels when s/he has finished, this is how it was--and how it is. An exquisite collection!" Lease is Associate Professor of Writing and Literature and Chair of the MFA Program in Writing at California College of the Arts in San Francisco. Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Dana Teen Lomax, Interim Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 smallpresstraffic@gmail.com http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:48:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: CHRIS FUNKHOUSER and MADELINE GINS @ SEGUE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CHRIS FUNKHOUSER and MADELINE GINS =20 Saturday November 3, 4:00-6:00 p.m. Segue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, one block above Houston $6 goes to support the readers =20 Chris Funkhouser was awarded a Fulbright Scholarship in 2006 to lecture and= conduct research in Malaysia, where his CD-ROM eBook Selections 2.0 was pr= oduced at Multimedia University. Prehistoric Digital Poetry: An Archaeology= of Forms, 1959-1995, a history of pre-WWW computerized poetry, has just be= en published by University of Alabama Press. =20 Madeline Gins: B-b-b-b-b-orn and intends never to die. Three of her eleven = books: What the President Will Say and Do!; Helen Keller or Arakawa; Making= Dying Illegal (co-author Arakawa). Three of five Arakawa + Gins=92 built w= orks: Bioscleave House=96East Hampton; Site of Reversible Destiny=96Yoro; R= eversible Destiny Lofts=96Mitaka. _________________________________________________________________ Boo!=A0Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare= ! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=3Dwl_hotma= ilnews= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:40:11 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: <47254261.6040702@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I know where they sell some excellent elderflower juice: at the supermarket round the corner, sure it is no use to you. On 10/29/07, Maria Damon wrote: > > where can one get elderflower jelly/jam? > > Christina E Lovin wrote: > > I just made a new folder in my "IN" Box...Recipes! This sounds > delicious, > > Hugh. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > > Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg > > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:20 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: recipes > > > > Hi all, > > > > Here's the recipe for my super-deluxe elderflower cheesecake. The only > > thing sweeter is my new book, Shy Green fields, just out from No Tell > Books, > > copies of which can be found at lulu.com. > > > > Hugh Behm-Steinberg > > > > > > Elderflower Cheesecake > > > > > > Crust > > > > > > 1 1/4 cups flour > > 1/4 cup Sugar > > 1/2 teaspoon salt > > 1 teaspoon elderflower jelly > > 1/2 cup sweet butter > > 1 egg yolk > > 2 tablespoons St. Germain liqueur > > > > Mix flour, sugar, salt, and elderflower jelly in the bowl of a food > > processor, pulse a couple times. Add butter in pieces, then pulse until > > mixture resembles coarse meal. Add yolk and St. Germain, pulse until a > ball > > forms. Press pastry dough over the bottom and up the sides of a nine > inch > > spring-form pan. Put the pan on a cookie sheet and bake in a preheated > 350 > > degree oven for 15 minutes, until dry but not brown. > > > > Filling > > > > 30 ounces of ricotta cheese > > 6 ounces mascarpone cheese > > 4 eggs > > 1/2 cup sugar > > 1/4 cup flour > > 1/4 cup St. Germain liqueur > > 4 tablespoons elderflower jelly > > > > Blend cheeses, eggs, sugar and flour in a biggish bowl. Stir in St. > Germain > > and elderflower jelly. Pour the filling into the crust, place the pan > on a > > cookie sheet and bake in a preheated oven at 325 degrees for an hour or > > until a tester comes out clean. Let cool, chill and serve. > > > > > > Catherine Daly wrote: Dear all: > > > > As many of you know, there is a chain e-mail regarding recipes > > currently making the rounds. I've encountered it previously through > > non-poets, and now a whopping six or seven times over the course of > > the past year from poets (more times from nonpoets). Now, perhaps > > this is my own fault, as I have been publishing collages of cookbook > > pages taken from the University of Michigan online archive. > > > > What say we 1) put out a poet's cookbook, either in print or on a > > blog, waiving the "easy ingredients" clause, in the vein of Ronald > > Johnson or of Alice B. Toklas, or Emily Dickinson, 2) stop sending the > > chain e-mails. > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:21:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Schmidt Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 7 Sep 2007 to 8 Sep 2007 (#2007-251) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Could anybody backchannel Lyn Hejinian's email address? Many thanks, Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:01:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Eye MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Eye http://www.asondheim.org/eye.jpg "How ironic that it is the darkest that receives the light, that illuminates - and comforts not the pitchest night." - Horace ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:43:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Modernist Studies Association events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Modernist Studies Association 1=964 November 2007, The Westin, Long Beach "Radical Particularity, Critical Regionalism, and the Resistance to=20 Globalization"; in "Marxism, Poetics, and Spatial Formation," organized by= =20 Barrett Watten (Wayne SU) and Ruth Jennison (U Massachusetts); Michael=20 Davidson (UCSD), chair; with Ruth Jennison, Carrie Noland (UC Irvine), and= =20 Barrett Watten "Back to the Land: Modernism and Rural Geographies"; Lisa Botshon (U=20 Maine), organizer; Laura O'Connor (UC Irvine), chair; with Audrey Goodman=20 (Georgia SU), Lisa Botshon, and Sarah Ruddy (Wayne SU) "Coteries, Collaboratives, Poetics"; Jeanne Heuving (U Washington),=20 organizer; Adelaide Morris (U Iowa), chair; with Jeanne Heuving, Lytle Shaw= =20 (NYU), and Carla Harryman (Wayne SU) Conference program: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/conferences/msa9/schedule/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:03:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: <47254261.6040702@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The brand I use is Matin des Pyrenees Elder Blossom Jelly. I get it at a little cheese/tea/coffee/chocolate shop near where I live called Coffee Market (one of the virtues of living in Berkeley). They don't have a website, but their number is (510) 526-1333. Happy hunting! Hugh Maria Damon wrote: where can one get elderflower jelly/jam? Christina E Lovin wrote: > I just made a new folder in my "IN" Box...Recipes! This sounds delicious, > Hugh. > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:20 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: recipes > > Hi all, > > Here's the recipe for my super-deluxe elderflower cheesecake. The only > thing sweeter is my new book, Shy Green fields, just out from No Tell Books, > copies of which can be found at lulu.com. > > Hugh Behm-Steinberg > > > Elderflower Cheesecake > > > Crust > > > 1 1/4 cups flour > 1/4 cup Sugar > 1/2 teaspoon salt > 1 teaspoon elderflower jelly > 1/2 cup sweet butter > 1 egg yolk > 2 tablespoons St. Germain liqueur > > Mix flour, sugar, salt, and elderflower jelly in the bowl of a food > processor, pulse a couple times. Add butter in pieces, then pulse until > mixture resembles coarse meal. Add yolk and St. Germain, pulse until a ball > forms. Press pastry dough over the bottom and up the sides of a nine inch > spring-form pan. Put the pan on a cookie sheet and bake in a preheated 350 > degree oven for 15 minutes, until dry but not brown. > > Filling > > 30 ounces of ricotta cheese > 6 ounces mascarpone cheese > 4 eggs > 1/2 cup sugar > 1/4 cup flour > 1/4 cup St. Germain liqueur > 4 tablespoons elderflower jelly > > Blend cheeses, eggs, sugar and flour in a biggish bowl. Stir in St. Germain > and elderflower jelly. Pour the filling into the crust, place the pan on a > cookie sheet and bake in a preheated oven at 325 degrees for an hour or > until a tester comes out clean. Let cool, chill and serve. > > > Catherine Daly wrote: Dear all: > > As many of you know, there is a chain e-mail regarding recipes > currently making the rounds. I've encountered it previously through > non-poets, and now a whopping six or seven times over the course of > the past year from poets (more times from nonpoets). Now, perhaps > this is my own fault, as I have been publishing collages of cookbook > pages taken from the University of Michigan online archive. > > What say we 1) put out a poet's cookbook, either in print or on a > blog, waiving the "easy ingredients" clause, in the vein of Ronald > Johnson or of Alice B. Toklas, or Emily Dickinson, 2) stop sending the > chain e-mails. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:33:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: new york schedule MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From October 31st to December 2nd, Diane Rothenberg and I will be = residing in New York -- Brooklyn (Williamsburg) this time, courtesy of = Marshall Reese and Nora Ligorano, 67 Devoe Street, Brooklyn 11211, New = York. The land line there is 718-782-9255, and our cell phone number is = 760-415-9889, while the email address remains the same. During that = time I will be away from the evening of November 4th to the morning of = the 8th for Curitiba Literaria, a poetry festival in Curitiba, Brazil. =20 While we've largely planned this as a chance to spend some extended time = on native ground (I was in fact born in Williamsburg), I will also be = participating in two poetry events: =20 November 1, 6:00-8:00 p.m., a benefit reading for Will Alexander at the = Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, north of Houston. =20 November 20, 7:00 p.m., a reading with Dutch author and old friend Cees = Noteboom at Pierogi Gallery, 117 North 9th St., Brooklyn (Williamsburg). =20 Also, for those of you in or near New York, if you're around and want to = get together during that time, please get back to us by email now or by = e-mail or phone following our arrival. We'll also try to be in touch = from our end. =20 Otherwise both of us are safe and well following the last line of fires = in the surrounding precincts. Looking forward & warm best wishes, =20 Jerry & Diane Rothenberg =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:37:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: An Update re Pluto Press--Victory against censorship; Press will continue to be distributed in USA by U Michigan Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Earlier this month i sent the forward below, re the efforts to have the book Overcoming Zionism by Joel Kovel disallowed US distribution, (it was temporarily), and the possible cessation of its publisher, Pluto Press (UK) being distributed in the USA by U Michigan Press. Since Pluto is a major publisher of leading contemporary philosophers, sociologists, ecological advocates and Leftist thought, and depends heavily on the American audience's purchasing power to keep it afloat, such an event would in effect terminate the existence of the Press. The attacks on Dr Kovel's books came from a group which is part of the larger umbrella organizations sponsoring the Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week on campuses nationwide and is connected with various other organizations which have attacked specific Professors, authors, editors, exhibition and musical events organizers and publishers with growing frequency and intensification of threats and media attacks. On Democracy Now this morning Amy Goodwin announced that Michigan Press has unanimously voted to continue distribution of Pluto Press, and conducted an interview with Dr, Kovel. (His book advocates a democratic one-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian question.) (it may be seen on http:// democracynow.org Thank you to those who signed the petition included in the forward, as it helped in the decision reached by the Michigan Press. Alex Jorgensen's posts re censorship are a reminder that "it can happen here, too" unless citizens continue to stand up for the rights to Freedom of Speech and Press. Freedom is not alway taken away all at once, but often one step at a time, and each step has to be contested, before one is walked over by an army of boots. One person, one book, one press--each one that is silenced leads to the next and the next and the next until--there is quiet, and the only words heard will be those of acquiesence. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Chirot Date: Oct 10, 2007 3:20 PM Subject: (FW) Can an entire publishing company disappear from the US? Howard Zinn has an open letter about Pluto To: UB Poetics discussion group This is from MuzzleWatch, Jewish Voices for Peace Can an entire publishing company disappear from the US? Howard Zinn has an open letter about Pluto http://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=266 The sender also included this note: Here's some information on Pluto Press; you can download the entire Fall 2007 Catalog via the link in the article to U Michigan Press Pluto Press, established in 1970, is one of the UK's leading independent publishers. Pluto Press is committed to publishing the best in critical writing across the social sciences and humanities. Pluto authors include Noam Chomsky, Sheila Rowbotham, Pierre Bourdieu, Jean Baudrillard, Frantz Fanon, Hal Foster, Augusto Boal, Susan George, Israel Shahak, Antonio Gramsci, John Pilger, Manning Marable, Edward S. Herman and bell hooks. Pluto Press currently publishes over 60 titles a year and has an extensive backlist of over 400 titles. View Pluto Press Series Pluto Press 345 Archway Road London N6 5AA Phone: 44 (0)208 348 2724 Fax: 44 (0)208 348 9133 Email: pluto@plutobooks.com http://www.plutobooks.com - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:36:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 10.29.07-11.04.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 10.29.07-11.04.07 BABEL We expect the Nov. 8 Orhan Pamuk event to sell out within the next few days= =2E Get your tickets now=21 When individual tickets run out for this event= , subscriptions will also be unavailable. Season Subscription: =2475 (SAVE =2425). Tickets for individual Babel events are on sale now. They cost =2425 per e= vent. November 8 Orhan Pamuk, Turkey, Winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize Book groups (minimum three people) can subscribe at a special rate of =2460= per person for the whole season. SUBSCRIBE TODAY or PURCHASE individual ti= ckets at http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel or by calling 832-5400. Book grou= p subscriptions by phone only. ___________________________________________________________________________ EVENTS Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. 10.29.07 Jewish Community Book Fair Rabbi Dov Peretz Elkins Reading and signing for: The Wisdom of Judaism Monday, October 29, 7:30 p.m. =2410, =245 Students Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 11.01.07 Jewish Community Book Fair Barbara Holender Poetry reading and signing for: Our Last Best Perfect Day Thursday, November 1, 10:30 p.m. =2410, =245 Students Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 & Just Buffalo/Communiqu=E9: Flash Fiction Deb Olin Unferth & Diane Williams (NOTE: GARY LUTZ HAD TO CANCEL AND HAS BEEN REPLACED BY DIANE WILLIAMS) Fiction Reading Thursday, November 1, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. & Jewish Community Book Fair Vanessa L. Ochs Reading and signing for: Inventing Jewish Ritual Thursday, November 1, 7:30 p.m. =2410, =245 Students Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo 2640 North Forest Road Getzville 688-4114 x337 11.02.07 Just Buffalo/Gusto at the Gallery Nickel City Poetry Slam Featuring Big Poppa E and Erin Livingston Friday, November 2, 7 p.m. Clifton Hall, Albright-Knox Art Gallery 11.04.07 Tru-Teas/Just Buffalo Christina Wos-Donnelly Plus spots for open readers/Broadsides for Purchase Sunday, November 4, 4 p.m. Insite Gallery, 810 Elmwood Avenue & Spoken Word Sundays Eric Johnt and Livio Farallo Sunday, November 4, 8 p.m. Allen Street Hardware, 245 Allen St. Slots for open readers available ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ___________________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:42:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Poetry and Public Language / conference volume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Announcing: Poetry and Public Language Edited by Tony Lopez and Anthony Caleshu Published by Shearsman Books, Exeter, U.K. Flyer:=20 http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac%5Fpages/ewatten/pdfs/poetryandpubliclanguag= e.pdf Some of the most challenging and rewarding English-language poets, both=20 avant-garde and traditional, appropriate public language and contest the=20 grounds of political and aesthetic meaning. This collection of 26 new=20 essays, by leading scholars and new researchers, is based on the conference= =20 Poetry and Public Language held at the University of Plymouth, England, in= =20 collaboration with Dartington College of Arts, in March and April 2007.=20 Setting out a number of diff erent approaches to this compelling and=20 paradoxical field of investigation, the book provides new cultural and=20 political readings of contemporary poetry and poetics and contributes to a= =20 much-needed dialogue on the critical reception of poetry in Britain, USA,=20 and Ireland. New writing on a range of modern poets including:Lyn Hejinian, Geoff rey=20 Hill, Tom Raworth, Robert Lowell, J.H.Prynne, Barrett Watten, Rae=20 Armantrout, Allen Ginsberg, Charles Olson, Allen Fisher, Frank O =92Hara,=20 Barry MacSweeney, Peter Reading, Tony Lopez, Thomas Kinsella, Robert=20 Duncan, and Basil Bunting. Contributors include: Barrett Watten, Lyn Hejinian, Peter Middleton, Robert= =20 Hampson, Andrea Brady, Allen Fisher, Richard Kerridge, William Rowe, H=E9l= =E8ne=20 Aji, Philip Terry, and Robert Sheppard. Shearsman Books Ltd, 58 Velwell Road, Exeter EX4 4LD, UK WWW.SHEARSMAN.COM ISBN 978-1-905700-64-6 PAPERBACK: 9x6ins, 296 PAGES, =A315.95 /$26 Order direct from the press or from the Saltpublishing website Order direct from amazon.co.uk or amazon.com UK trade orders via Bertrams Books or Gardners Books US trade orders via Ingrams or Baker and Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:16:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Sandy Baldwin's book which is excellent! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:19:36 -0400 From: Charles Baldwin Reply-To: Theory and Writing To: WRYTING-L@listserv.wvu.edu Subject: shameless self-promotion http://www.blazevox.org/bk-sb.htm http://www.amazon.com/I-DID-WEIRD-MOTOR-DRIVE/dp/1934289345/ref=sr_1_1/002-7549339-3868805?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193685314&sr=8-1 I DID THE WEIRD MOTOR DRIVE Sandy Baldwin created the nerve creature in Alfred Jarry's brain universe. Baldwin's writing diagnosis materialized a mechanical larva in I DID THE WEIRD MOTOR DRIVE. Word had the nanotechnologic feeler by Baldwin's geometrical gene-control. - Kenji Siratori The author of this book is obviously the unnatural love grand child of William *Sewer* Burroughs & Jim *J.G.* Ballard. Makes for a weird motor. Despite Theory Police*s stem warmings, I mean, stern warnings, I*ll buy a pre-owned text from this guy any day, though I know it to be habit forming. - Pierre Joris A self-reflexive archaeology whose target expands, an inverted maelstrom engulfing violencetext, pornography, Ballardic-bardic structures - whatever either millennium has to offer. Archaeology extends through codework to these dreams haunting machines, "it was the dream in them," someone said, these wrytings grace and plot the garbled future of the planet. 2. This is a remarkable ground-breaking book, descendent of the movie marquee, military manual, love story, Odyssey. There is nothing else like it. Think of narratives of miracles for example, game boys or girls, or journeys illuminated by glow-worm texts down past the wrecks of World War I and II. Everything is here - literally everything. Think of the narratives of daily life, obscured, confused, kludged - that too. Think of untoward brilliance, and that too. Read this book! Just do it! - Alan Sondheim http://www.blazevox.org/bk-sb.htm http://www.amazon.com/I-DID-WEIRD-MOTOR-DRIVE/dp/1934289345/ref=sr_1_1/002-7549339-3868805?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193685314&sr=8-1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:25:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 71 (2007) Four Poems by Oliver Rice It Is Summer on Tolstoy's Estate Ravaged by the Light Or Waking on a Roof in Algiers Of Goya, Of Prince Valiant Oliver Rice has received the Theodore Roethke Prize and was twice featured on Poetry Daily. His poems appear in three recent anthologies: Ohio Review's New and Selected, Bedford/St. Martin's Introduction to Literature, and Random House/Billy Collins' 180 More, also available on the Library of Congress website. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:56:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Dan Gerber's 'Something Like a Poem' In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 http://www.gtweekly.com/10-25-07-/something-like-a-poem-4 The most common and certainly the most difficult question I might be asked by a stranger on an airplane is, =93What is your work about?=94 It=92= s a conundrum for any artist. And I suspect the one single quality that may peg one as an artist=97as opposed to, say, a craftsman=97may be the artist= =92s inability to form a satisfactory answer. I could say it=92s about the process of discovering what it=92s about. And that would be honest. I could quote William Faulkner and say, =93it=92s about the human heart in conflict with itself.=94 And that would be honest too. What my poems are about is=97and comes out of=97a kind of knowledge not preconceived. It=92s available only in the course of literary composition, a kind of wisdom that has to float like a piece of ice on its own melting, as Robert Frost said a poem must. So I probably won=92t be able to tell you what any particular poem of mine is about in any words other than those in which it=92s composed. Frost, again, famously responded to a question about what he meant by a particular poem, saying, =93If I=92d wanted you to know, I=92d have told you in the poem.=94 On another such occasion he simply read the poem again. When someone tells me they wish they could read my poems but that they just don=92t understand poetry, I hear, as a sub-text, them saying, =93I just don=92t know what it means,=94 as if poetry were a kind of riddle that only a select few can decipher. I think the difficulty may lie in the word, =93understand,=94 when applied to a work of art. It seems to me a word no more germane to a poem than to a painting, a sculpture, a piano sonata or a novel. I will say that most of the poems I consider great, that have grown and deepened in me over the course of 30 or 40 years, were quite beyond me when I first encountered them. And yet they rang somehow inside me, like music heard for the first time. And I knew from the outset they were something I needed in my life, something I had to have. I recognized quite surely, they were necessary to the one who made them, and that they were necessary to me, though, on that first occasion, that may have been all I was able to take from them. =93And so we are grasped by what we cannot grasp,=94 Rainer Maria Rilke said. =93Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening,=94 a poem by Frost, grasped me the first time my mother, or one of my older sisters, read it to me, but my appreciation of it has changed, deepened, saturated, over the years. The same can be said of =93Leaves of Grass,=94 by Walt Whitman. I=92ve never understood either of them in the sense that one may feel he=92s come to understand a theory or an argument. How do we understand delight? I can=92t say I understand a Mark Rothko painting, but often I can feel what is grave and constant in human suffering when I stand before it. I seem to grasp a Norman Rockwell painting on my first glimpse of it but am seldom drawn to encounter it again, and in fact may become enervated by repeated exposure. I may seem to be, and may, in fact, be a snob, but I believe as my old friend and teacher, George Oppen wrote, =93=85 there are other levels / but there are no other levels of art.=94 I don=92t think of an audience when I write, but if I did it would be someone very much like me. I=92m deeply pleased when a neighbor, or a stranger, writes or tells me they have been moved by or delighted by my work=97deeply pleased, but what really matters is the response of those I regard as my peers. I remember novelist Tom McGuane once saying =93What really matters is the response of four or five friends. They=92re the ones I had in mind when I wrote it.=94 William Keats said, =93I never wrote a line with the least public thought. Everything I=92ve written has been for the all-being, the principle of beauty, and the memory of great men.=94 And it occurs to me just now that what I write is for, and in response to, Whitman, Henry David Thoreau, Willa Cather, John Keats, Federico Garcia Lorca, Rilke, Antonio Machado, Frost and so many others=97those through whom what I am and do began to wake up in me. I write for those who taught me to see. There is work, like that of John Asbery or, at times, Vladimir Nabokov, that seldom moves or strikes a deep chord in me, but which I enjoy visiting for its juice, its pure verbal facility, its virtuosity. I may learn from or catch a little fire from them, though their art is not what I aspire to. What is bad art to me is banality, of any kind, or what Joseph Campbell called pornographic art=97=93=85 that which engenders desire or loathing for that which is depicted.=94 I=92ve never understood Lorca, but I need him, just as I=92ve never understood Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, and I need him too. Now that I=92ve come to a point in my life where I look back to what we commonly call middle-age, I think, finally, that what my work is about is this: Our working to discover what love is=97in its least discriminating, least object-focused, and deepest sense=97when the foundation stone of all we=92ve spent our lives thinking of as our own has been worn away, something we might be given to understand, if only for a moment, in something like a poem. --=20 Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm --=20 http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:23:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Freind, William Joseph" Subject: Re: Modernist Studies Association events MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's another MSA panel that might be of interest: After the Modern Long Poem, Sunday 8:30-10:00 AM ORGANIZER and CHAIR: Bill Freind, Rowan University Libbie Rifkin, Georgetown University =93As if the sheer clarity of pointing=94: Deixis and History in Rachel Blau DuPlessis=92 Drafts Lisa Sewell, Villanova University =93Proximity of In Her to Inner=94: Recording the Domestic Epic (On Bernadette Mayer and Claudia Rankine) William Mohr, California State University=97Long Beach =93Hide Me in the Light, Tiresias=94: Modernist Knowledge and the Aporias of Prophecy in Leland Hickman=92s GREAT SLAVE LAKE SUITE and T.S. Eliot=92s The Waste Land -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Barrett Watten Sent: Mon 10/29/2007 11:43 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Modernist Studies Association events =20 Modernist Studies Association 1-4 November 2007, The Westin, Long Beach "Radical Particularity, Critical Regionalism, and the Resistance to=20 Globalization"; in "Marxism, Poetics, and Spatial Formation," organized = by=20 Barrett Watten (Wayne SU) and Ruth Jennison (U Massachusetts); Michael=20 Davidson (UCSD), chair; with Ruth Jennison, Carrie Noland (UC Irvine), = and=20 Barrett Watten "Back to the Land: Modernism and Rural Geographies"; Lisa Botshon (U=20 Maine), organizer; Laura O'Connor (UC Irvine), chair; with Audrey = Goodman=20 (Georgia SU), Lisa Botshon, and Sarah Ruddy (Wayne SU) "Coteries, Collaboratives, Poetics"; Jeanne Heuving (U Washington),=20 organizer; Adelaide Morris (U Iowa), chair; with Jeanne Heuving, Lytle = Shaw=20 (NYU), and Carla Harryman (Wayne SU) Conference program: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/conferences/msa9/schedule/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:33:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schneider Hill Subject: Sightings and Hearings: Huth & Hill at the Stain Bar, Nov. 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poets Crag Hill and Geof Huth will give a reading entitled "Sightings & Hearings" at the Stain Bar in Brooklyn, New York, on November 16th. Combining their interest in visual, sound, and even textual poetry, they will read and perform, together and apart, a wide range of works. This will be the first time Hill and Huth have performed together since their performance in March of this year, so don't miss this east coast appearance. If a reading isn't enough encouragement, Stain Bar has a great selection of New-York-only beer and other drinks. Crag Hill and Geof Huth Friday, 16 November 2007 6:30 pm Stain Bar 766 Grand Street Brooklyn, New York 718/387-7840 To get to Stain Bar, take the L train to Grand and go one block west to 766 Grand Street by the way of Graham Avenue and Humboldt Street. For those who attend, Hill will offer Nico Vassilakis' Text Loses Time for $12.00! Ask him for one. Bios of the Performers: Crag Hill has been exploring the world through the prisms of verbal and visual language since his re-birth in the 1970s. Writer of numerous chapbooks and/or other print interventions, including Dict (Xexoxial Endarchy), Another Switch (Norton Coker Press), and Yes James, Yes Joyce (Loose Gravel Press), he has also once edited two magazines, Score and its successor Spore. His latest book, co-edited with Bob Grumman, is Writing to be Seen, the first major anthology of visual poetry in 30 years. He writes frequently about poetry at his blog, Crg Hill's poetry scorecard . Geof Huth is a writer of textual and visual poetry who has lived on most of the continents on earth. He writes frequently about visual poetry, especially on his weblog, dbqp: visualizing poetics. His chapbooks include "Analphabet," "The Dreams of the Fishwife," "ghostlight," "Peristyle," "To a Small Stream of Water (or Ditch)," and "wreadings." Huth edited &2: an/thology of Pwoermds, the first-ever anthology of one-word poems. His most recent books are a box of pages entitled water vapour and the chapbook, "Out of Character." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:31:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Rosmarie Waldrop's email MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone have that handy? If so, would you be so kind as to backchannel? I wrote it down in one of 10,000 notebooks when she and Keith were here over a year ago... thanks! Andy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:50:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: St. Olaf College MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (this is a forward. please don't respond to me. good luck!) St. Olaf College Assistant Professor of English: Creative Writing To teach creative writing, primarily poetry, with additional teaching responsibilities in literature & first-year writing. Six course, tenure-track position beginning September 2008. Candidates should have a minimum of the MFA, with PhD preferred; significant publications; & successful college teaching experience. We are looking for candidates committed to diversity who can contribute to developing a strong creative writing program. Send letter of application & c.v. to: Mary Titus, Chair of the Search Committee, Department of English,1520 St. Olaf Ave., St. Olaf College, Northfield, MN, 55057-1098. All applications will be acknowledged. No electronic applications or inquiries please. Review of completed applications will begin November 9; interviews will be held at the MLA meeting Dec. 27-30, 2007. http://www.stolaf.edu/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:36:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 28 Oct 2007 to 29 Oct 2007 (#2007-302) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:56:33 -0700 From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Dan Gerber's 'Something Like a Poem' http://www.gtweekly.com/10-25-07-/something-like-a-poem-4 The most common and certainly the most difficult question I might be asked by a stranger on an airplane is, =93What is your work about? YES, I THINK THE POINT ALWAYS IS THAT IT'S NOT "ABOUT"--IT "IS" =94 It=92= s a conundrum for any artist. And I suspect the one single quality that may peg one as an artist=97as opposed to, say, a craftsman=97may be the artist= =92s inability to form a satisfactory answer. YES. NO ANSWER. THAT'S WHY IT EXISTS WITHOUT EXPLANATION. I could say it=92s about the process of discovering what it=92s about. And that would be honest. I could quote William Faulkner and say, =93it=92s about the human heart in conflict with itself.=94 And that would be honest too. What my poems are about is=97and comes out of=97a kind of knowledge not preconceived. It=92s available only in the course of literary composition, a kind of wisdom that has to float like a piece of ice on its own melting, as Robert Frost said a poem must. So I probably won=92t be able to tell you what any particular poem of mine is about in any words other than those in which it=92s composed. Frost, again, famously responded to a question about what he meant by a particular poem, saying, =93If I=92d wanted you to know, I=92d have told you in the poem.=94 On another such occasion he simply read the poem again. CORRECT RESPONSE. HOW ELSE TO RESPOND? When someone tells me they wish they could read my poems but that they just don=92t understand poetry, I hear, as a sub-text, them saying, =93I just don=92t know what it means,=94 as if poetry were a kind of riddle that only a select few can decipher. I think the difficulty may lie in the word, =93understand,=94 when applied to a work of art. It seems to me a word no more germane to a poem than to a painting, a sculpture, a piano sonata or a novel. I will say that most of the poems I consider great, that have grown and deepened in me over the course of 30 or 40 years, were quite beyond me when I first encountered them. And yet they rang somehow inside me, like music heard for the first time. YES, IT'S THE MUSIC YOU NEVER HEARD BEFORE. And I knew from the outset they were something I needed in my life, something I had to have. I recognized quite surely, they were necessary to the one who made them, and that they were necessary to me, though, on that first occasion, that may have been all I was able to take from them. =93And so we are grasped by what we cannot grasp, THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO BE GRASPED BY =94 Rainer Maria Rilke said. =93Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening,=94 a poem by Frost, grasped me the first time my mother, or one of my older sisters, read it to me, but my appreciation of it has changed, deepened, saturated, over the years. The same can be said of =93Leaves of Grass,=94 by Walt Whitman. I=92ve never understood either of them in the sense that one may feel he=92s come to understand a theory or an argument. How do we understand delight? WE DELIGHT IN DELIGHT. I can=92t say I understand a Mark Rothko painting, but often I can feel what is grave and constant in human suffering when I stand before it. SO UNDERSTAND MARK ROTHKO THEN I seem to grasp a Norman Rockwell painting on my first glimpse of it but am seldom drawn to encounter it again, and in fact may become enervated by repeated exposure. I may seem to be, and may, in fact, be a snob, but I believe as my old friend and teacher, George Oppen wrote, =93=85 there are other levels / but there are no other levels of art.=94 I don=92t think of an audience when I write, but if I did it would be someone very much like me. I=92m deeply pleased when a neighbor, or a stranger, writes or tells me they have been moved by or delighted by my work=97deeply pleased, but what really matters is the response of those I regard as my peers. I remember novelist Tom McGuane once saying =93What really matters is the response of four or five friends. They=92re the ones I had in mind when I wrote it.=94 William Keats said, =93I never wrote a line with the least public thought. Everything I=92ve written has been for the all-being, the principle of beauty, and the memory of great men.=94 And it occurs to me just now that what I write is for, and in response to, Whitman, Henry David Thoreau, Willa Cather, John Keats, Federico Garcia Lorca, Rilke, Antonio Machado, Frost and so many others=97those through whom what I am and do began to wake up in me. I write for those who taught me to see. "I WRITE FOR MYSELF AND STRANGERS" GERTRUDE STEIN There is work, like that of John Asbery or, at times, Vladimir Nabokov, that seldom moves or strikes a deep chord in me, but which I enjoy visiting for its juice, its pure verbal facility, its virtuosity. I may learn from or catch a little fire from them, though their art is not what I aspire to. What is bad art to me is banality, of any kind, or what Joseph Campbell called pornographic art=97=93=85 that which engenders desire or loathing for that which is depicted.=94 I=92ve never understood Lorca, but I need him, just as I=92ve never understood Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, and I need him too. Now that I=92ve come to a point in my life where I look back to what we commonly call middle-age, I think, finally, that what my work is about is this: Our working to discover what love is YES!!! =97in its least discriminating, least object-focused, and deepest sense=97when the foundation stone of all we=92ve spent our lives thinking of as our own has been worn away, something we might be given to understand, if only for a moment, in something like a poem. --=20 Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm VERY BEAUTIFUL--THANKS FOR MAKING INSOMNIA WORTH IT--BOBBI ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:20:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: recipes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe it all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a pavlova cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good thing to include at poetry readings): CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA for the chocolate meringue base: 6 egg whites 1 cup granulated sugar 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped for the topping: 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream 1 very full pint raspberries 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated bittersweet chocolate Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a spoonful at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over the cocoa and vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 hrs When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides and be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate so that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the raspberries' luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly over te top, letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) Bobbi Lurie ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:28:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roberto Harrison Subject: Enemy Rumor reading Nov 3, 7 pm - Gricevich & Johnson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hope to see you!* * *Enemy Rumor* November 3, 2007, 7 pm @ Walker's Point Center for the Arts 911 W. National Ave., Milwaukee, WI Andy Gricevich & Kent Johnson Andy Gricevich is uncomfortably writing this in the third person from his home in Madison, WI, from which he departs frequently to perform satirical songs and experimental theater with the Prince Myshkins and the Nonsense Company. He has taught classes and workshops throughout the U.S., and his poems and essays have appeared in *Absent, Luzmag, Mirage*, *Moria*, *Unlikely Stories*, and other lovely print and online journals. Kent Johnson lived in Milwaukee for twelve years, back when Axel's Bar had lots of booths and one little black and white TV--a long time ago. Translations from his book *Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz: Eleven Submissions to the War * (Effing Press, 2005) have appeared or are forthcoming (as book collections or in selected form) in Argentina, Bolivia, Bosnia, Brazil, Chile, Croatia, Italy, Jordan, Paraguay, Peru, and Spain. *I Once Met*, a book of 82 personal poetic memories, was recently published by Origin/Longhouse. He appears in the anthology *Ten Significant American Poets*, due out soon in Bosnia-Herzegovina from Azduzbina Kocic Publishers, and his translation (with Forrest Gander) of Jaime Saenz's *The Night *was released earlier this year by Princeton. A collection, *Lirska poezija nakon Auschwitza*, was published this summer by Ajfelov Most Books in Sarajevo. *Homage to the Last Avant-Garde*, a collection of new and selected poems, will be published by Shearsman Books, in the UK. -- 2542 N. Bremen, #2 Milwaukee, WI 53212 414.372.3478 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:25:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Subject: two readings with Ira Cohen bay area (posted on behalf of Michael Rothenberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, November 11, 7 pm Ira Cohen and Michael Rothenberg Beat Museum 540 Broadway (at Columbus) San Francisco, CA contact: 1-800-537-6822 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:19:11 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: <8C9E8FDF79232A4-4F0-1F5D@WEBMAIL-DF04.sysops.aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT oh god! i'm fainting... and my birthday's coming up... :-) On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe it > all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a pavlova > cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked > for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a > replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order > (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good > thing to include at poetry readings): > > CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA > > for the chocolate meringue base: > 6 egg whites > 1 cup granulated sugar > 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted > 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar > 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped > > for the topping: > 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream > 1 very full pint raspberries > 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated > bittersweet chocolate > > > Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper > > Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a spoonful at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over the cocoa and vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 hrs When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides and be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. > When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate so that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the raspberries' luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly over te top, letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. > > Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) > Bobbi Lurie > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:27:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: i'm trying to push out and form my own hand here. infants, embryonic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed i'm trying to push out and form my own hand here. infants, embryonic http://www.asondheim.org/hand.jpg what fun says d'eruza, d'nala's trembling hand on shudder button, camera moving d'eruza, d'nala's trembling hand on shudder button, what fun says d'eruza, d'nala's trembling hand on shudder button, escapes the picks me up by her hand in me, her illuminated hand, her illuminated picks me up by her hand in me, her illuminated hand, her illuminated picks me up by her hand in me, her illuminated hand, her illuminated picks me up by her hand in me, her illuminated hand, her illuminated oulthing * evhe car * inde the car * everytde tnsishe puts * hand * theythe woman * t les her hand * cdss her hand * placeon my * , on me, * with his cry shall the seas be moved, and the hand that guides, and put his right and left hand upon him. being naked shall he pervade, universe bears the burden of death, leaning against a canvas drawing and foreclosing upon another palsy. the hand shakes and words come out virtual so put out your hand and touch our vulva, that it's in your hand. that you slap my hand. that my hand signs you. hold fast to your fingers. your fingers hold your hand your arm. held fast hole and your hand is clean. your hand stays clean as long as it's in saint thomas lowers his hand into the wound saint thomas lowers his hand into the hole inscribed by the human hand on the path or on the body of the initiate so that your hand is my hand my hand is yours you wear your cock i wear i am sheathed and capsule in your hand in your body my hand trembles. i dream. http://www.asondheim.org/optical1.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/optical2.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/optical3.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:02:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Ira Cohen reading with Michael Rothenberg and Louise Landes Levi Read at Moe's Books (posted on behalf of Michael Rothenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Monday, November 12, 7:30 pm Ira Cohen reading with Michael Rothenberg and Louise Landes Levi Moe's Books 476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley CA 94704 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:31:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matthew hill Subject: PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE CLOUD RECKONER Poetry by Matt Hill ISBN = PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT=0A=0ATHE CLOUD RECKONER=0A=0APoetry by Matt Hill=0AISBN = 978-1-59594-196-1=0APrice: $11.95=0ARelease date: October, 2007=0ADistribut= ors: Ingram, Amazon.com, B&N.com & wingspanpress.com=0A=0A"The Cloud Reckon= er is the inflection point where the conscious=0Aand the ecstatic collide. = Spanning more than a decade, this hybrid=0Acollection of poems filled with = leaps and questionings traverses a=0Aterrain where metaphor is the map. The= language is audacious, =0Achallenging, and ironic.=0AThis range of poetic = forms reveal amazing and sometimes hallucinatory=0Aimagery; this is a fusio= n of ecological visions and prosaic abstraction=0Athat resists any conventi= onal tagging.=0AIn The Cloud Reckoner, the pathologies and joys of reprieve= d =0Aexistence are depicted via everyday epiphanies. In these writings is= =0Aan eclectic alchemy, an experimental exploration, of the thought and=0Ai= magery that upholds the regeneration and love on finds in the world=0Aof th= e transmundane."=0A=0AMatt Hill is the former editor and publisher of the M= arshall Creek=0APress series of avant-garde chapbooks, with offerings by Ja= ke Berry, =0AJohn M. Bennett, Sheila E. Murphy, Jim Leftwich, and others. I= n=0Aaddition to The Cloud Reckoner, he has also edited a compilation=0Aof q= uotations Extracts: A Field Guide for Iconoclasts. Living in the =0ASanta C= ruz Mountains, he continues to pursue projects of metaphorical=0Asignifican= ce. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:58:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: SATURDAY in BALTIMORE: Conrad, King, and Covey In-Reply-To: <633832.45607.qm@web36213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit C A C O N R A D A M Y K I N G B R U C E C O V E Y Saturday, November 3rd at 8 p.m. - i.e. reading series CARRIAGE HOUSE 2225 Hargrove Street Baltimore MD 410-727-1953 www.ieseries.wordpress.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:26:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: another great one bites the dust Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed (file this one under literary cat news; never visited Powell's but =20 I've bought many books from them online ~mIEKAL) A Tribute to Fup. Store Cat. October 29th, 2007: Posted by Ron Silberstein http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=3D2568 Fup, the resident cat at Powell's Technical Books, passed away on =20 October 25. She was 19 years old. She continued to greet her admiring =20= public to the end, when her health failed and there was no choice but =20= to put her to sleep. Her lifelong veterinarian made the trip out to =20 the store to perform the task and Fup died peacefully at home with =20 several of her longtime co-workers present. Fup was born on or about June 30, 1988. She was adopted as a kitten =20 by the Technical Store's first manager, so her exact birthdate is =20 unknown and she was always quite coy about that. As for the origin of =20= her name, legend has it that the manager's sister had a cat named =20 Puff, so he sort of spelled that backwards. There was also a book =20 titled Fup by Jim Dodge, published in 1983, which may have played =20 into it as well. When Powell's Technical Books moved to its present address in =20 November 1990, Fup made the move as well. After clearing the building =20= of any remaining mice, she claimed the store as her own. She showed =20 little interest in the outside world, except to watch birds and =20 falling leaves outside the window. She didn't care for toys, either =97 =20= Fup took her position quite seriously. Except for the summer of 1997, =20= when she was moved to an employee's apartment for about six weeks =20 while the store was being remodeled, her rule was uninterrupted. In her youth, Fup would sometimes climb ladders and hide at the top =20 of book fixtures to look down upon the humans in her domain. Over the =20= years, Fup acquired a well-earned reputation for biting employees who =20= intruded on her time for more than about 30 seconds. However, she =20 would always be sitting in front of the office to greet whoever came =20 to open the store in the morning, demanding her serving of canned =20 food for breakfast. She was more patient with visitors; Fup played =20 the celebrity game well. She received many gifts and cards and emails =20= from fans, which she appreciated. In her later years, she mellowed out quite a bit and even became =20 friendlier towards her co-workers, especially if they shared their =20 lunches. Her favorite foods were canned tuna, chicken (especially =20 Tandoori), and pulled pork. Cold cuts were also welcome. There will not be a service; however, a memorial to be placed =20 somewhere in the store is planned for a future date. Tributes can =20 left in the comments section below. oregon humane society In lieu of cards or flowers, we respectfully request you make a gift =20 donation to the Oregon Humane Society in Fup's name. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:24:03 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Seldess Subject: Antennae 9 available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, It's taken much longer than hoped (mainly due to the move across the = ocean, etc.), but the new issue of Antennae is finally available. See = below for info. Best wishes, Jesse ANTENNAE 9 October 2007 $7 writings by tenney nathanson / carla harryman /=20 patrick durgin & jen hofer / david pavelich /=20 john tipton / barrett watten / donna stonecipher music or performance scores by travis just / carol genetti susceptible-to-wear cover paper pre-worn Payable to Jesse Seldess / 1321Woodland Lane / Riverwoods / IL / 60015 E-mail: j_seldess@hotmail.com Two-issue subscriptions are $12 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:15:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Fwd: FW: [Msa-members] Avant-garde in academia? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >From: msa-members-bounces@jhupress.jhu.edu >[mailto:msa-members-bounces@jhupress.jhu.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Sell >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 5:33 AM >To: Msa-members@jhupress.jhu.edu >Subject: [Msa-members] Avant-garde in academia? > >Dear Colleagues, > >As you may be aware, here in the U.S. in the 1950s and 60s, a number of >artists who might be considered avant-garde worked within academic >institutions. Joan Marter, for one, has described the work of Allan Kaprow= , > >George Brecht, and others at Rutgers University during that period. More >recently, the rise of Performance Studies has been prompted by the efforts >of experimental and activists artists such as Richard Schechner, Coco Fusco= , > >and Guillermo G=F3mez-Pe=F1a, to name just a few. This rapprochement of >avant-garde and academia has impacted the traditionally antagonistic >relationship of the two in complex ways > >I am looking for information regarding avant-garde artists within academic >institutions outside of the U.S. Though I'm interested primarily in >educational institutions such as colleges and universities, I'd be happy to >hear about intersections with other dimensions of academic study (along the >lines of, say, Robert Motherwell editing The Dada Painters and Poets or Hak= i > >Madhubuti founding Third World Press). > >In advance, thanks for the help, > >Mike Sell > >Associate Professor >Department of English >Indiana University of Pennsylvania >110 Leonard Hall >Indiana, PA 15705-1094 >724-357-2261 / Fax: 7-2265 >_______________________________________________ >Msa-members mailing list >Msa-members@jhupress.jhu.edu >http://chaos.press.jhu.edu/mailman/listinfo/msa-members ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:05:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Perrin Subject: CFP for Essays on Duncan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit READING DUNCAN READING: ESSAYS ON THE POETICS OF DERIVATION (Edited by Stephen Collis & Graham Lyons) “No poet, no artist of any art, has his complete meaning alone. His significance, his appreciation is the appreciation of his relation to the dead poets and artists” -T.S. Eliot, “Tradition and the Individual Talent” “I draw my ‘own’ thought in reading Dante as from a well-spring.” -Robert Duncan Robert Duncan’s penchant for referring to himself as a ‘derivative” poet is well documented if not notorious—and the extent of his poetic derivations is readily apparent in his published works, where poem after poem enters into dialogue with a wide array of precursors and companions, great and small. Far from a Bloomian striving against received tradition, however, Duncan’s derivations function simultaneously as poetics, as literary criticism, as self-reflection, indeed as reading. Whether read as a matter of influence, homage, or appropriation, Duncan’s poetics is clearly situated on a blurred line between the processes of reading and writing—a space where (self) expression and derivation (from others) blend so that the poet’s “own” thought is, in practice, difficult to discern from the poet’s sources in “others” writing. What are the implications of this difficulty, this ambiguity? What possibilities issue from Duncan’s stance as at once reader and poet? How might Duncan’s derivations open out to a politics? An ethics? READING DUNCAN READING will gather essays addressing both Duncan’s derivations from the work of other writers (the uses he makes of his sources), and derivations from Duncan’s work (the work of writers who have themselves drawn upon Duncan’s “well-spring”). The list of the former could include (but is certainly not limited to): Charles Baudelaire, William Blake, Robin Blaser, Paul Celan, Jean Cocteau, T. S. Eliot, Dante, Sigmund Freud, Thom Gunn, George Herbert, H.D., James Joyce, Denise Levertov, George MacDonald, Gerard de Nerval, Charles Olson, Edith Sitwell, Jack Spicer, Gertrude Stein, Wallace Stevens, William Carlos Williams, and Louis Zukofsky. The list of those writers whose work may in some ways be read as flowing from Duncan’s could include: Robin Blaser, Michael Davidson, Peter Gizzi, Susan Howe, Lisa Jarnot, Ronald Johnson, Robert Kelley, Michael Palmer, Peter O’Leary, and John Tranter, amongst others. Abstracts of 250-500 words with contact information should be sent to Stephen Collis, scollis@sfu.ca by no later than January 31st 2008. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:15:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: another great one bites the dust In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just visited Powell's last spring. It is a wonderful but somewhat overwhelming bookstore. I am trying to remember if I saw Fup among the rows of books--I don't think so. May Fup rest in peace. mIEKAL aND wrote: (file this one under literary cat news; never visited Powell's but I've bought many books from them online ~mIEKAL) A Tribute to Fup. Store Cat. October 29th, 2007: Posted by Ron Silberstein http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=2568 Fup, the resident cat at Powell's Technical Books, passed away on October 25. She was 19 years old. She continued to greet her admiring public to the end, when her health failed and there was no choice but to put her to sleep. Her lifelong veterinarian made the trip out to the store to perform the task and Fup died peacefully at home with several of her longtime co-workers present. Fup was born on or about June 30, 1988. She was adopted as a kitten by the Technical Store's first manager, so her exact birthdate is unknown and she was always quite coy about that. As for the origin of her name, legend has it that the manager's sister had a cat named Puff, so he sort of spelled that backwards. There was also a book titled Fup by Jim Dodge, published in 1983, which may have played into it as well. When Powell's Technical Books moved to its present address in November 1990, Fup made the move as well. After clearing the building of any remaining mice, she claimed the store as her own. She showed little interest in the outside world, except to watch birds and falling leaves outside the window. She didn't care for toys, either — Fup took her position quite seriously. Except for the summer of 1997, when she was moved to an employee's apartment for about six weeks while the store was being remodeled, her rule was uninterrupted. In her youth, Fup would sometimes climb ladders and hide at the top of book fixtures to look down upon the humans in her domain. Over the years, Fup acquired a well-earned reputation for biting employees who intruded on her time for more than about 30 seconds. However, she would always be sitting in front of the office to greet whoever came to open the store in the morning, demanding her serving of canned food for breakfast. She was more patient with visitors; Fup played the celebrity game well. She received many gifts and cards and emails from fans, which she appreciated. In her later years, she mellowed out quite a bit and even became friendlier towards her co-workers, especially if they shared their lunches. Her favorite foods were canned tuna, chicken (especially Tandoori), and pulled pork. Cold cuts were also welcome. There will not be a service; however, a memorial to be placed somewhere in the store is planned for a future date. Tributes can left in the comments section below. oregon humane society In lieu of cards or flowers, we respectfully request you make a gift donation to the Oregon Humane Society in Fup's name. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:22:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Unnameable Cannibal Kitchen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kitchen Press & Cannibal Books invite you to eat from the= =0A=0AKitchen Press &=0ACannibal Books=0A=0A=0Ainvite you to eat from=0Athe= chopping block=0A=0A=0Aw/=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AErin Elizabeth Burke Run=0ADow= n the Emphasis (Kitchen)=0A=0A=0AThibault Raoult I=A2ll=0ASay I=A2m Only Vi= siting (Cannibal)=0A=0A=0AMathias Svalina Why I=0AAm White (Kitchen)=0A=0A= =0A =0A=0A=0AFriday, November 2nd,=0A8 PM=0A=0A=0AUnnameable Books=0A=0A=0A= 456 Bergen Street=0A=0A=0Abtwn. 5th & Flatbush=0ABrooklyn, NY=0A=0A=0A=0A = =0A=0A=0ARefreshments served, but=0Ayou may also BYOB.=0A=0A=0AKitchen Pres= s and=0ACannibal Books products will be available for consumption.=0A=0A=0A= Unnameable Books carries=0Aan excellent selection of poetry from independen= t presses.=0A=0A=0AThis event is free for=0Aall.=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0Aunnameab= lebooks.net=0A=0A=0Akitchenpresschapbooks.blogspot.com=0A=0A=0Aflesheatingp= oems.blogspot.com=0A=0A__________________________________________________= =0ADo You Yahoo!?=0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protectio= n around =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:26:45 -0700 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from information as material: FLATLAND by derek beaulieu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > information as material is proud to present derek beaulieu's Flatland: A > Romance of Many Dimensions with an afterword by Marjorie Perloff (110 pp, > 2007, ISBN 978-0-9553092-5-0) > > > > "As the Greenbergian modernists proclaimed the flatness of the canvas, so > derek beaulieu reduces the page to a flat plane. The result is a new kind > of > flatness-call it non-illusionistic literature-a depthless fiction, one > where > image and narrative is reduced to line and shadow. In the great tradition > of > Picabia, Beaulieu creates a perfect work of mechanical writing with one > foot > in the concrete poetic past and another in the flatscreen future." > > -Kenneth Goldsmith, author of Day and editor of ubuweb.com > > > > "In Flatland, Beaulieu excavates the fetile ground between form and > content, > gesture and geography and word and meaning. He challenges the physicality > of > the page as a bodily engagement in recuperating essential ideas embedded > in > writing as communication." > > -Marc Boutin, recipient of the 2006 Progressive Architecture (P/A) Award > and > 2002 Prix de Rome. > > > > derek beaulieu is author of 3 books of poetry and publisher of the > acclaimed > small press housepress (1997-2004). A teacher in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, > beaulieu's work has appeared in magazines, journals and galleries > internationally. He is co-editor of the controversial, best-selling Shift > & > Switch: new Canadian Poetry (2005). > > > > Marjorie Perloff is professor emeritus of English and Comparative > Literature > at Stanford University and author of Radical Artifice: Writing Poetry in > the > Age of Media. > > > > information as material was established in 2002 to publish work by artists > who use extant material - selecting it and reframing it to generate new > meanings - and who, in doing so, disrupt the existing order of things. > > > > ** > > Copies are now available direct from the author at $20 (postage included). > > Contact derek beaulieu at derek@housepress.ca for more information > > > > ** > > International Book launch for Flatland at the Oslo Poetry Festival, Oslo, > Norway November 2, 2007. > > > > Canadian book launch for Flatland at The Lunchbox Theatre, 2nd Level, Bow > Valley Square 229, 205-5th Ave SW, Calgary Alberta Canada December 8, 2007 > 7:00pm. > > > > ** > > > > Copies can also be purchased from Cornerhouse Publications in Manchester > for > 8 pounds, or distributed internationally by Cornerhouse Publications + pp. > > Cornerhouse Publications, 70 Oxford Street, Manchester, M1 5NH, England: > Tel: (+44)161 200 1503 / Fax: (+44)161 200 1504 E-mail: > publications@cornerhouse.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:22:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Picabia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apologies for not having commented on this earlier, but I've been overwhelmed with other matters. David, your post was full of interesting things, but there are some points I have to take issue with: "An interesting effect of using this word is that, rather than giving the impression that Picabia's work long ago did what is for some time now claimed to be the provenance uniquely of American poetry, it instead gives the impression that Picabia's work is being turned retrospectively into a branch of Language Poetry by virtue of this assocaition." This was certainly not my intention. I think that if a poet invents a useful piece of terminology (in this case, "torque"), this is not because the word solely represents an aspect of his own practice--quite the opposite, its usefulness is represented by its breadth of application, and maybe even by the way it can produce counterintuitive _but convincing_ readings. I think I write a fine essay on torque in the poetry of Philip Larkin, but I would not in doing so be trying to show that Larkin is a Language poet. (I do enjoy absurdism in the work of others, but don't inulge in it myself.) Can I point out that I cite Frank O'Hara without making Picabia a poet of the New York School and Kenneth Rexroth without turning him into a member of the San Francisco Renaissance. You rightly say that "poetry of the Dadaists has played a huge role around the world for a very long time"--though in my opinion, as I point out in the review, to see Picabia's poetry solely through the lens of Dada is a very superficial approach--so why are you surprised that he might be associated, either in my review or in the book's jacket blurbs, with poets for whom he would have played such an influential role, either directly or indirectly? "Already the poet is being 'set up' for a certain kind of reception and as it were being taken possesion of--'one of OUR contemporaries.'" Well, I don't know about the "one of our contemporaries" part; I spent a lot of time in that review setting out the historical particulars of Picabia's situation; but isn't reading a sort of "possession" or appropriation? Still, "torque" does not turn Picabia into Silliman any more than situating him within a certain "tradition" would turn him into T.S. Eliot just because Eliot once used that word in a famous essay. Unless of course one has a specific paranoia about Silliman as some people do about Eliot. David Chirot wrote: Dear Stephen and Barry: Apologies for the delay in responding--i began this Sunday and ever since have been experiencing the interrelationship of the intermittent with the interminable--intermittently being able to write a few words among interminable interruptions, making the intermittent entries become an interminable project unless ----put it this way--i better be done in time for Game One of the "World Serious" as Ring Lardner's characters call it-- Thank you very much for the review Barry--i am very much looking forward to reading the book and liked your review-- the question i bring up here--is more of a general one which also includes the review, but only a tiny tiny bit of the review-- i shd also mention that at one point Picabia was a friend of Gertrude Stein's and before people think otherwise i have been a fan of her works for so long a time it is impossible for me to grasp actually having able to traverse so many eons--who knows, perhaps i, too, was a friend of Gertrude Stein's and am just suffering from temporary amnesia? I do recall going to the place in Paris, but not finding any one at home at the time . . . The copy of the Picabia book i found at the Schwarz indie bookstore (yet to check library) is shrink wrapped, so only had the opportunity to peruse the prose stylings of the blurbographers, including of course Jerome Rothenberg, who sent his to this list. The others are Charles Bernstein, Marjorie Perloff & David Antin. If one includes Barry's use of Silliman's "torque" in his review and Rothenberg's Novalis quote that "Language is Delphi," the implication is that Picabia is a sort of proto-Language poet. Or even an honorary member--"one of our contemporaries." This brings up some interesting questions about the nature of the perceptions of the productions of time when examined through lenses ground and polished to the present's specifications. I am looking forward to reading the book to see--or read Picabia's Collected works to find--if he anywhere writes out various ideas of his own about the techniques he is employing which Barry uses the word "torgue" for. An interesting effect of using this word is that, rather than giving the impression that Picabia's work long ago did what is for some time now claimed to be the provenance uniquely of American poetry, it instead gives the impression that Picabia's work is being turned retrospectively into a branch of Language Poetry by virtue of this assocaition. All of the blurbs keep saying that Picabia is "one of our contemporaries". From another point of view would not this indicate in fact how reactionary the present is that it is only now realizing that things of sixty to a nearly a hundred years ago are "our contemporaries"? If one reads Hans Richter's 1963 Dada Art and Anti-Art or Abstract Expressionist painter Robert Motherwell's great anthology originally issued in the 1950's The Dada Painters and Poets, Dada poetry is treated very seriously for American readers. ( Richter notes at one point having Walter Benjamin translate a Picabia poem for a journal that he edited.) The great Japanese poet Shinkichi Takahashi, known in English for his volumes of Zen poetry and writings, was Japan's first Dadaist, wrote and published Dada poetry and got himself arrested for Dada activities.The influence of Dada in his Zen poetry is very strong. (There is a very fascinating book by a Korean scholar on Tzara and Takahashi.) The fact of the matter is that poetry of the Dadaists has played a huge role around the world for a very long time--the works of Tzara, Hausmann, Picabia, Schwitters and a poet as yet far too little known in the USA--the artist Hans (Jean) Arp, who wrote in both French and German. Dada also produced a vast body of Visual Poetry in every one of its locations globally and in New York, Picabia was closely associated with Stieglitz. (His journal 391 alludes to Steiglitz's 291.) W C Williams hung out with the NYC Dada crowd (and was particularly perturbed by the Baroness--herself a poet of note). Williams on the final pages of Spring and All includes a critique of Zaum, very far in advance of its much later "discovery" in the USA of the late 20th century. A great deal of the traditions which grew out of Dada and the Futurisms have been for the most part marginalized in American poetry, and when admitted into it, as with the example of Picabia, seen through a very particular lens, in order in a sense to "torque" it into "the American Tree." One might say that this is the imperialist aspect of American thought, that this being the land of invention, of course all things have their true origin here, and if not, then they can be very quickly subsumed into the narrative of the American Dream, Manifest Destiny and be included in some antholgies alongside American "masters." Fellini said of his Satyricon: "It is a science fiction film set in the past." This is an excellent way to describe some of the possibilities opened up in examining this way of thinking. In the tape-essay "Renga and the new Sentence," Tosa Motokiyu, Ojiu Norinaga and Okura Kyojin discuss and demonstrate that Silliman's "New Sentence" has actually been present and functioning for four centuries in Japanese Renga, which in its 20th century experimentations has moved even further than its American counterpart, especially in concerns with single author ownership of texts, an ideological construction firmly embedded in the "private enterprise" emphasis of American capitalism. The tape-essay both undercuts the "originality" of the New Sentence and at the same time lends a kind of added stature to it by virtue of its being joined with a tradition it was unaware of. It can still, in a way, lay claim to being something of "an American original" by virtue of this happenstance, and hence underscore the prescience of its author. In a funny way, a person could even "torque" the situation and claim that the American is revealing to the Japanese what they did not know that they had been doing all along, just as poor Picabia never knew at all what he was up to, and now "we" do. At the time (1992) this tape-essay appeared in Aerial, the three discussants were known as the translator-editors of the Japanese poet Araki Yasusda. Today, Yasusada having emerged as the fiction he "really" is, Motokiyu is the pseudonym of the late person averred to be the "author." Who the other two discussants "really" are--or-were--or will be--as with Motokiyu, becomes unmoored from single authorship identity--and drifts into the Poe-eque regions hovering between the living and the dead, floating among the Real and the Unreal, among identities actual, pseudonymous and anonymous, ghost written and posthumous. These multiplicities of hyper authors can be understood I think not only as a critique of "authorship" and "authority," but of reading as well. Note again the authors chosen to write the blurbs introducing Picabia and mentioned in the review. Reading these names and what they write and are (presumed to be) associated with in the reader's mind, one is guided already into a certain way of reading Picabia, a frame within which to view his techniques and formal qualities. Already the poet is being "set up" for a certain kind of reception and as it were being taken possesion of--"one of OUR contemporaries." That a critique of authorship leads to one of reading is one of the myriad fascinating ideas put forth in Borges' story "Pierre Menard." The story opens with a critique of a catalogue of the works of Menard, leading to the discussion of his most important but missing text, his exact, yet superior, word for word writing of a few chapters of Don Quixote. Menard's labors are immense, his drafts thousands of torn up pages. Yet the little he produces, while seemingly the futile word for word reproduction of the original. takes on added qualities not possesed by Cervantes' text. Demonstrating how greatly the text written by Menard differs from that of Cervantes, Borges' narrator quotes a passage which he says is "a mere rhetorical eulogy" by "the ingenious layman" Cervantes, but, when written by Menard, coming after William James in time, "does not define history as an investigation of reality, but its origin," and whose "final clauses are shamelessly pragmatic." Borges' narrator also notes the contrast ins styles between the 20the century Frenchman writing in 17th century Spanish (it "suffers a certain affectation") and that of the 17th Century Spaniard "who handles easily the ordinary Spanish of his time." In short, what might at first have appeared to be a very confining exercise opens instead on a radically new adventure. "Menard (perhaps without wishing to) has enriched, by means of a new technique, the hesitant and rudimentary art of reading: the technique, with its infinite applications, urges us to run through the Odyssey as if it were written after the Aeneid . . . .This technique would fill the dullest of books with adventure. Would not the attributing of The Imitation of Christ to Louis-Ferdinand Celine or James Joyce be a sufficient renovation of its tenuous spiritual counsels?" In this way, one can claim that Picabia is really "one of us"--because he seems to fit in with dicta of the time by "one of us." (That is, if we read him via torque.) Yet what this does is "fill the dullest of books with adventure"--that is, the dull book of all the vast decades and countries of poets who have been studiously ignored , and when "discovered," are found to be surprisingly like what "we" have known about al the time. "Torque" is an example of this. I recall reading an old essay of Bernstein's in which he also uses a car associated word--"souped up" for a somewhat similar purpose, of adding power to a word, a phrase, a line, sentence, etc. This kind of "gear head" talk fits in with the manly phrase "muscular prose" which crops up so very often among American male writers. (Including Pound and Bernstein.) It also follows in a line of American poets who made analogies of writing and driving--Creeley in the Introduction to Naked Poetry, Kerouac ("Writing is silent meditation going a 100 miles per hour," and Neal Cassady as the ultimate torquer), and W.C. Williams, halting his car at the train crossing and using the time to write what he is seingo n his doctor's rounds. Yet the origin of the automotive fetish is to be found in the first manifesto of modernism, Marinetti's 1909 "Founding and Manifesto of Futurism." Amazingly enough, Marinetti's machine is not simply a mechanical device, but also the predatory machine par excellence, the celebrated companion of Lautreamont's Maldoror and haunter of Hollywood beaches: "They thought it (the car) was dead, my beautiful shark, but a caress from me was enough to revive it: and there it was, alive again, running on its powerful fins!." (Marinetti in 1909 by means of Futurist speeds seeing already the fins of Fifties American cars driven at Cassady warp speeds--) Reading of Picabia's later work in which he is doing his reworkings of Nietzsche's texts--is he not moving into the realms of Borges' Menard, of Motokiyu's Yasusada and friends in the 1930's writing 1980's American poetry in a tradition already four hundred years old, and claimed to be specifically influenced by a Jack Spicer then aged 12? In early twentieth century western modernism there is the search for an "outside" to contact for an influx of the "other," of the "new," of the "unknown,." Kandinsky turned to the study of the art of children Picasso and others to the art of Africa, to the incorporation of outside elements into a painting and poem by means of collage, the importing of techniques and effects from telegraph, radio, cinema, x-rays, photogrpahy, aerial photography. The shapes and sizes of post cards became elements in structuring poems such as Apollinaire's calligrammes. The extreme brevity of Ungaretti's poetry written in between gun fire and artillery blasts. The rapid disintegration of language from Futurist shatteings of syntax and abandonment of punctuations to the chance drawings of words from a hat of Dada. And from there to using the letter as an element (Hausmann, Schwitters). Kruchonyhk turned to the Pentcoastal speaking in tongues for inspiration in the founding of Zaum. And after Prinzhorn's work on The Art of the Mentally Ill appeared in 1922, there are the first importings of the works ft the clinical "outsider," into serious consideration in art and poetry. By contrast, one does not find such a turning in most American poetry to an outside. It's very interesting that Gertrude Stein's example has attained such a (forgive me) huge presence in American poetics,as some aspects of her work exemplify a turning to an extreme focus on a private language in a privatized sphere, where the Author in a sense reigns supreme. I don't recall in which book, but Stein remarks that one of the reasons she lived in Paris was that this way she would not be hearing daily the english language. (Well--what about Alice and all the visitors?) What she meant was that to be in an environment where English was seldom and selectively heard, in her writing the only voice she really was hearing was her own. It is not that speech and voice vanish--she did write palys and operas after all--it is that writing can be purified of any sounds other than what she is able to have complete control of through this intense listening only to oneself. The privateness of language becomes in many works the "subject" so to speak--it is both the subject that writes and the subject of which it writes. The extreme density of a text like "Stanzas in Meditation," for example, is a kind of collapse of matter on its way to being something approaching a black hole. The private and its privatization of a literary landscape, a geography, a history, create a topology of seemingly impenetrable surfaces. The "isolationism" associated with many traditions of American thought manifests as this outward opacity of an extremely self-involved private language. This is only one aspect of Stein's writing, to be sure, but is one that has a lot of influence and cachet. In a way, it is in the tradition of a Whitman, a "Song of Myself" and (my) " "Body Electric" channeled into "material words" rather than worlds, cosmos. The words though, have become the sole property of Gertrude Stein, her private language. It is still, for all the community of friends and celebrity, the American individualist who is the Author and Owner supreme. One reads that Picabia is like a contemporary. Might one not read this the other way round--and think--oh my God!!--we are only now reaching what Picabia was up to many millenia ago? That via isolationism, selective filtering of texts chosen to fit into the narrative which will culminate in "our contemporeinity" being at the apex of all poetic accomplishments in the "avant" and "post avant, " that via all this, the world has none the less gone on turning and poets producing astounding works and creating innumerable innovations, smashing all manner of conventions and taboos, while Americans have been busy with imperial Sentences of Death, Torture, Security, Surveillance, Ethnic Cleansing and other favorite activities with one hand and "radical" or "conservative" poetry debates on the other? For example, following Picabia's example, one could use his working with Nietzsche's to turn around and use Picabia's own texts as the lens through which to read, say, "one of our contemporaries." Or employ the method of the fictional Japanese and Menard--to use and old text in the present as though written again now as a means by which to examine works in the present, works in the past. This proliferates the means by which may make use, learn from, investigate with texts not as something to be fitted in to the appointed slot--but something which is welcomed in as a tool for opening up, disordering, creating new arrangements, knocking over the applecart, In short--not to say, ah a welcome addition to the shelf of the history of --the continued reflection of our singular radiance-- Bu aha!--something --uncanny, alive--not yet caged in he zoo or pinned in the insect collection in the poetry sections . . . I don't think anyone mentioned as yet among innovators and makers of invective and so forth Archilochus? The inventor or the iambic pentameter, of lyric poetry and of the mighty insult--one so vile that it caused the man it was directed at to kill himself. Also one of the greatest of comic poets. Mercenary solider, bastard son of an important person, poet extraordinaire. Re the quote from Novalis that "Language is Delphi"-- Heraclitus writes: "The One whose Oracle is at Delphi neither speaks nor conceals but give signs." Signs may be birds, rainbows, strange beings, a weird object. For Heraclitus it would seem that the Oracle does not use language. This is close to the understanding of "The Tao that can be named is not the Tao." And also from Heraclitus: "One cannot hide from that which never sets." This paradoxical aspect is examined in the Yasusada book Doubled Flowering in the footnotes re "Renga and the New Sentence" and also in the Borges story "Pierre Menard": You're right > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:32:59 -0700 > > From: steph484@PACBELL.NET > > Subject: Re: Picabia > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Hi David: I thought it should be a review of the book. I just could not > see the title info on the Nation website. > > > > Hope things are well with you David. > > > > D > > > > David-Baptiste Chirot < davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: Stephen-- > > the review IS of the MIT book > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:35:46 -0700 > > > From: steph484@PACBELL.NET > > > Subject: Re: Picabia > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > Unless I am blind to the mention, Barry, I do not see any mention of > the (new?) MIT of Picabia's writings. Saw it on the Black Oak table this > past weekend. Includes a smattering of his graphic work. A well done book on > first blush (rush). > > > > > > In any case, nice article - congrats. > > > > > > Stephen Vincent > > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > Barry Schwabsky wrote:Members of this list may be interested in my > piece on the poetry of Francis Picabia, in the current issue of The Nation: > http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/schwabsky > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. > Get it now. > > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 > > > ------------------------------ > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! > Try now! > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:01:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Hoerman Subject: Celebration of Anne Sexton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Celebration of Anne Sexton Sunday, Nov. 18th 2:00 PM Tapestry of Voices and the Forest Hills Educational Trust present Poetry in the Chapel Reading Series in Forsyth Chapel at historic Forest Hills Cemetery 95 Forest Hills Avenue, Boston, MA 617.524.0128 Admission: $5 Info: www.foresthillstrust.org ANNE SEXTON =AD THE POET AND THE WOMAN =AD REMEMBERED AND CELEBRATED BY FOU= R FRIENDS Join us for our sixth annual tribute to Anne Sexton, who wrote fearlessly about family, sexuality, despair, and joy, pioneering a radical new poetry. Four writers who knew her well will read from her poetry and from their own writing. The friends and colleagues who gather to remember her are: Victor Howes, fellow teacher; Lois Ames, who co-edited Sexton's Life in Letters; Robert Clawson, who managed Anne Sexton and her Kind the poet's rock band; and Suzanne Berger, one of her students. A portrait of Anne emerges from their recollections and stories and from her own writing. Funny, free-spirited, transgressive and wildly intelligent, she broke away from the conventions of suburban middle class life. The aggressive, disturbing honesty of her writing still influences poetry today. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:14:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Merwin/Ashberry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit News, belated news. Merwin reads tonight, Mumford rm, library of congress. If forced to decide between Ashberry or Merwin, which one would I prefer to read on my desolate Island? Merwin, who lives in Hawaii, has the flora & fauna advantage. LANGUAGE purist seem to swear on Ashberry's Tennis Court poems. My favorite is "The Wave." The shorter poems in "The Wave" never seem to falter, there's a beautiful adaption of Baudelaire, full of fatigue & yearning, & of course the splendid long poem. October 22, 2007 W.S. Merwin, Winner of the Bobbitt Poetry Prize, Will Read, Oct. 31 Celebrated poet W.S. Merwin will receive the 2006 Rebekah Johnson Bobbitt National Prize for Poetry and read selections of his work at 8 p.m. on Wednesday, Oct. 31, in the Mumford Room on the sixth floor of the James Madison Building, 101 Independence Ave. S.E., Washington, D.C. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:56 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) On 10/30/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > oh god! i'm fainting... and my birthday's coming up... :-) > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe it > > all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a pavlova > > cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked > > for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a > > replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order > > (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good > > thing to include at poetry readings): > > > > CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA > > > > for the chocolate meringue base: > > 6 egg whites > > 1 cup granulated sugar > > 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted > > 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar > > 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped > > > > for the topping: > > 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream > > 1 very full pint raspberries > > 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated > > bittersweet chocolate > > > > > > Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper > > > > Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a spoonful > at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over the cocoa and > vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is > thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 > inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then > immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 hrs > When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides and > be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of > squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door > slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. > > When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. > Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the > meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate so > that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the raspberries' > luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly over te top, > letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. > > > > Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) > > Bobbi Lurie > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70710310715l24522d08v7894b236b437fe17@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I don't generally do desert, but if I'm having folks over for dinner and good manngoes are available I skin and slice them, marinate them in the fridge for a few hours in sauterne or another decent desert wine (pineau des charentes is almost as good, and a lot cheaper than most of the alternatives), squeeze some lime over them and serve. Also works well half mangoes half ripe peaches (again, if you can get good ones). I tried adding strawberries. Doesn't work so well. Sometimes I add a couple of slices of fresh ginger to the marinade. Here's a good thing to do with broccoli. Steam it and some garlic cloves more than you think you should, put in food processor with some olive oil (don't overdo it) add salt to taste (I also put in a bit of paprika) and puree. If you need more liquid use the steaming water. It should have about the consistency of mashed potatoes. Heriberto Yepez named this "broccomole." White clam sauce. Steam a pound or so of soft-shelled clams (remember, most of the weight is shell). Eat them (yum). Set aside steaming liquid and store in fridge (or freeze as need be). You're going to use a 6.5 oz can of chopped clams for the recipe, so chop up about the same amount of garlic. heat olive oil in a skillet, cook garlic briefly, throw in some chopped-up fresh rosemary, a little paprika (my grandmother was hungarian, what can I say), maybe a little cayenne if you're in the mood. Other fresh herbs do nicely--thyme comes to mind--but I wouldn't confuse the taste by using more than one. Now add say half a cup of the reserved clam juice, also the clam juice from the can of clams. Cook at high heat, stirring and scraping off the sides occasionally (wooden spoon, please) until clam juice begins to look creamy. If you want more finished product, add more clam juice and do as above. When you're almost satisfied add dry white wine and reduce, taste, probably add more white wine. Add clams and let them get hot, then toss with a pound of spaghetti, grated cheese, some fresh ground black pepper. Yum yum. Feeds two to three. Note: This takes no more than 20-30 minutes. Remember to have someone else wash the dishes. Mark At 10:15 AM 10/31/2007, you wrote: >I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) > > > >On 10/30/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > > oh god! i'm fainting... and my birthday's coming up... :-) > > > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > > > Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe it > > > all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a pavlova > > > cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked > > > for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a > > > replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order > > > (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good > > > thing to include at poetry readings): > > > > > > CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA > > > > > > for the chocolate meringue base: > > > 6 egg whites > > > 1 cup granulated sugar > > > 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted > > > 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar > > > 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped > > > > > > for the topping: > > > 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream > > > 1 very full pint raspberries > > > 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated > > > bittersweet chocolate > > > > > > > > > Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper > > > > > > Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a spoonful > > at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over > the cocoa and > > vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is > > thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 > > inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then > > immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 hrs > > When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides and > > be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of > > squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door > > slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. > > > When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. > > Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the > > meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate so > > that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the raspberries' > > luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly > over te top, > > letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. > > > > > > Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) > > > Bobbi Lurie > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > > http://mail.aol.com > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Issue seven of Otoliths is now online In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 00:03:42 +1000 From: otolitheditor@gmail.com Subject: Issue seven of Otoliths is now online Issue seven of=20 Otoliths has just gone live. It's as eclectic as ever, but that means there= 's something there for everybody. Lined up in this issue are Sheila E. Mur= phy, Nico Vassilakis, Anny Ballardini, Vernon Frazer, Matina L. Stamatakis,= Geof Huth, Matt Hetherington, derek beaulieu, Andrew Taylor, Nigel Long, Marko Niemi, Michael Steven, Anne Heide, Mark Prejsnar,=20 M=E1rton Kopp=E1ny, Jim Leftwich, Catherine Daly, Bill Drennan, Julian Jaso= n Haladyn, Alexander Jorgensen, Jeff Harrison, Paul Siegell, Robert Gauldie= , Martin Edmond, Raymond Farr, John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett & Friends, = Andrew Topel & John M. Bennett, Andrew Topel, Mark Cunningham, Jeff Crouch,= Randall Brock, Eileen R. Tabios, Jordan Stempleman, Daniel f. Bradley, Lars Palm, harry k stammer, Karri Kokko, Katrinka Moor= e, Tom Hibbard, dan raphael & David-Baptiste Chirot. It's what Hieronymous = Bosch dreamt about, a Garden of Earthly Delights. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:51:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Szymaszek-Waldman Dialogue Now Online Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, "Generations of Inspiration and Community: Poetry Project Directors Past and Present Talk." With Stacy Szymaszek having recently begun her tenure as artistic director of The Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church, Boog City politics editor Christina Strong and I recently conducted email interviews with her and a past director, Anne Waldman, about the East Village, community, and the future of The Poetry Project. About half of the dialogue is in the print edition (and online pdf: http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc45.pdf) of the paper, while the entire dialogue is available online: http://about.welcometoboogcity.com/ Thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:04:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: recipes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Try this for halloween. Instead of the traditional sugary stuff give the wee visitors blood pudding. Fun to see how they react, and it does seem more appropriate. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:09:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "j. kuszai" Subject: will alexander benefit--thursday @ bpc Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Thanks to Stacy Szymaszek and Bob Holman for organizing and hosting =20 this event... BENEFIT READING FOR WILL ALEXANDER THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1ST, 6-8PM BOWERY POETRY CLUB 308 Bowery / F to 2nd Ave, or 6 to Bleecker $10 suggested donation, more if you can Poet and artist Will Alexander has become seriously ill and has no =20 health insurance. In order to help him defray the cost of treatment =20 his friends will gather and read Will=92s work as well as poems for = Will. ANNE WALDMAN BILL MARSH ELIOT WEINBERGER MARCELLA DURAND TOD THILLEMAN RODRIGO TOSCANO BOB PERELMAN TONYA FOSTER JEROME ROTHENBERG JOEL KUSZAI PIERRE JORIS AKILAH OLIVER JOHN HIGH Funds raised will be sent directly to Will through the Bowery Poetry =20 Club.=20= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:14:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Toot-toot: "Vispo!" said the little engine that could. In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2007/10/alexander-jorgensen-oh-you-need-to.html Three vispo poems. -- Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:28:55 -0400 Reply-To: joan@concordpoetry.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joan Houlihan Subject: POETRY MANUSCRIPT CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline *The Compleat Manuscript Poetry Conference * *Next conference: November 30--December 4, 2007 * In this unique conference, where enrollment is strictly limited to six qualified participants, each manuscript is thoroughly read by both editors in the weeks before the conference begins. At the conference, Jeffrey Levine, poet, editor and publisher of Tupelo Press and Joan Houlihan, poet, editor and founder of the Concord Poetry Center, analyze and critically discuss every manuscript with the author. This conference also provides behind-the-scenes advice on submissions and recommendations for both journals and presses. All poets read from their manuscripts at evening readings. The November conference takes place in a quintessential New England setting in view of the Berkshire mountain range at Spirit Fire, a lovely and secluded retreat. For an application and complete guidelines, please visit http://www.compleatmanuscript.com/November/ You may also call 978-897-0054, email conferences@colrainpoetry.com or write to The Compleat Manuscript, Concord Poetry Center, 40 Stow Street, Concord, MA 01742-2418. *Attendees say:* "Eye-opening..I wanted a stepped-back view of my work, and certainly got one, one that I can apply to thinking about existing poems and to future work. The work you both did for us was both detailed and generous. A clear, well-lit path. Many, many thanks for your focus and energy. It was a very rich experience." *Diana Gordon, Northampton, MA* I have been to many good conferences, but what I liked about this one was the sustained attention of my (and others') work, to whole manuscripts. I appreciated the feedback which was local, general, and global=97on the poem= s themselves, including which lines don't work; on the sections; on the whole conception and shape of the collection. I got specific ideas about titles, and the tension needed between the title and the first line=85specific idea= s about beginning in medias res, as it were, and not beginning with so much narration (my problem). *Carol* *Gilbertson, Professor of English, Decorah, IA * It [the conference] helped me see with an editor's eyes. I now can imagine the process even more thoughtfully. It [the conference] surpassed my expectations. *Paul Brooke, Ames, IA * Thorough and frank opinions about the poems and manuscript. *Norm Goodwin, Edmonds, WA* I feel a new sense of motivation toward my work, and I'm prepared to get back into it and revise. I was pleased to receive, orally in our sessions, detailed feedback from the editors/poets on faculty whose work I respect. = * Gary** Leising, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of English, Utica, NY * *For more information on this and other upcoming manuscript conferences, see:* ** *www.colrainpoetry.com* --=20 Joan Houlihan, Director Concord Poetry Center & Colrain Conferences www.concordpoetry.org www.colrainpoetry.com 978-897-0054