========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:52:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: POETRY MANUSCRIPT CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT In-Reply-To: <4ac5e9170710311628s64bca594s3d1441d5875daeba@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit excuse me, but is this a joke? Joan Houlihan wrote: > *The Compleat Manuscript Poetry Conference * > *Next conference: November 30--December 4, 2007 * > > > > In this unique conference, where enrollment is strictly limited to six > qualified participants, each manuscript is thoroughly read by both editors > in the weeks before the conference begins. At the conference, Jeffrey > Levine, poet, editor and publisher of Tupelo Press and Joan Houlihan, poet, > editor and founder of the Concord Poetry Center, analyze and critically > discuss every manuscript with the author. This conference also provides > behind-the-scenes advice on submissions and recommendations for both > journals and presses. All poets read from their manuscripts at evening > readings. > > > > The November conference takes place in a quintessential New England setting > in view of the Berkshire mountain range at Spirit Fire, a lovely and > secluded retreat. For an application and complete guidelines, please visit > http://www.compleatmanuscript.com/November/ You may also call 978-897-0054, > email conferences@colrainpoetry.com or write to The Compleat Manuscript, > Concord Poetry Center, 40 Stow Street, Concord, MA 01742-2418. > > > > *Attendees say:* > > > > "Eye-opening..I wanted a stepped-back view of my work, and certainly got > one, one that I can apply to thinking about existing poems and to future > work. The work you both did for us was both detailed and generous. A clear, > well-lit path. Many, many thanks for your focus and energy. It was a very > rich experience." *Diana Gordon, Northampton, MA* > > > > I have been to many good conferences, but what I liked about this one was > the sustained attention of my (and others') work, to whole manuscripts. I > appreciated the feedback which was local, general, and global—on the poems > themselves, including which lines don't work; on the sections; on the whole > conception and shape of the collection. I got specific ideas about titles, > and the tension needed between the title and the first line…specific ideas > about beginning in medias res, as it were, and not beginning with so much > narration (my problem). > > *Carol* *Gilbertson, Professor of English, Decorah, IA > > * > > It [the conference] helped me see with an editor's eyes. I now can imagine > the process even more thoughtfully. It [the conference] surpassed my > expectations. *Paul Brooke, Ames, IA * > > > > Thorough and frank opinions about the poems and manuscript. > > *Norm Goodwin, Edmonds, WA* > > > > I feel a new sense of motivation toward my work, and I'm prepared to get > back into it and revise. I was pleased to receive, orally in our sessions, > detailed feedback from the editors/poets on faculty whose work I respect. * > Gary** Leising, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of English, Utica, NY > * > > > *For more information on this and other upcoming manuscript conferences, > see:* > ** > *www.colrainpoetry.com* > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:08:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: Gettysburg College MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (this is a forward. please don't respond to me. good luck!) Gettysburg College invites applications for a tenure-track appointment at the assistant professor level, beginning August 2008, for a poet to teach five courses over two semesters (3/2) in introduction to creative writing and advanced poetry writing. M.A., with a concentration in creative writing, M.F.A., or Ph.D., with creative dissertation, required. Exemplary teaching record and significant publication record a must. The successful candidate will assist with departmental writing activities and serve as a member of the English Department's creative writing committee. Gettysburg College is a highly selective liberal arts college located within 90 minutes of the Washington/Baltimore metropolitan area. Established in 1832, the College has a rich history and is situated on a 220-acre campus with an enrollment of over 2,600 students. Gettysburg College celebrates diversity and especially invites applications from members of any group that has been historically underrepresented in the American academy. The College assures equal employment opportunity and prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, gender, religion, sexual orientation, age, and disability. Competitive salary. To apply, send letter of application, c.v., the names of three references, and a 5-10 page writing sample to: Prof. Jack Ryan, Chair, Department of English, Box 397, Gettysburg College, 300 N. Washington St., Gettysburg, PA 17325, postmarked by November 9, 2007. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:16:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Steensen,Sasha" Subject: e-mail addresses? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 I am looking for e-mail addresses for the following poets: Pam Rhem, Ben Lerner, Brenda Coultas, and Claudia Rankine. If you have one, or if you are one, please backchannel. Thanks, Sasha Steensen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:05:32 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: RHETORIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DEAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE = QUEST FOR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Zamsky, Robert" Subject: New College of Florida: Writer in Residence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 New College of Florida, the experimental liberal arts honors college of = the State University System, announces an opening for a Writer in = Residence, spring semester 2008 (February-May). MFA, MA, or equivalent = degree preferred. The successful candidate will have two published books = or the equivalent, & two years' experience teaching creative writing at = the college level, which can include instruction as a graduate student. = New College encourages interdisciplinary, multicultural, & innovative = approaches to teaching. Writers whose work engages multiethnic &/or = Diasporic issues especially encouraged to apply. The Writer in Residence = will be responsible for teaching two semester-length writing courses = (one multi-genre introductory course & one course in the applicant's = specialty), & will give at least three public readings. Courses are = evaluated through narrative evaluations rather than grades. We = especially welcome candidates who, as Writer in Residence, will be = interested in getting to know our campus community. The College, located = an hour south of Tampa, seeks to attract a culturally & intellectually = diverse faculty of the highest caliber. Salary $20,000, with no = benefits. Send c.v., letter of application, writing sample, dossier with = three letters of reference & official transcript, & two course proposals = (one, introductory level & another more specialized) to: Dr. Nova = Myhill, Chair, Search Committee, Division of Humanities, New College of = Florida, 5800 Bay Shore Road, Sarasota, FL 34243-2109. Review of = applications will begin November 26 & continue until position is filled. = For disability accommodations, contact Chair a minimum of five days in = advance at (941) 487-4360. Website: www. ncf.edu = . = AA/EOE. (AWP) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:49:07 -0400 Reply-To: tyrone williams Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tyrone williams Subject: Re: POETRY MANUSCRIPT CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maria, I thought that too but I'm afriad it's not.... Tyrone -----Original Message----- >From: Maria Damon >Sent: Oct 31, 2007 10:52 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: POETRY MANUSCRIPT CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT > >excuse me, but is this a joke? > >Joan Houlihan wrote: >> *The Compleat Manuscript Poetry Conference * >> *Next conference: November 30--December 4, 2007 * >> >> >> >> In this unique conference, where enrollment is strictly limited to six >> qualified participants, each manuscript is thoroughly read by both edito= rs >> in the weeks before the conference begins. At the conference, Jeffrey >> Levine, poet, editor and publisher of Tupelo Press and Joan Houlihan, po= et, >> editor and founder of the Concord Poetry Center, analyze and critically >> discuss every manuscript with the author. This conference also provides >> behind-the-scenes advice on submissions and recommendations for both >> journals and presses. All poets read from their manuscripts at evening >> readings. >> >> >> >> The November conference takes place in a quintessential New England sett= ing >> in view of the Berkshire mountain range at Spirit Fire, a lovely and >> secluded retreat. For an application and complete guidelines, please vis= it >> http://www.compleatmanuscript.com/November/ You may also call 978-897-00= 54, >> email conferences@colrainpoetry.com or write to The Compleat Manuscript, >> Concord Poetry Center, 40 Stow Street, Concord, MA 01742-2418. >> >> >> >> *Attendees say:* >> >> >> >> "Eye-opening..I wanted a stepped-back view of my work, and certainly got >> one, one that I can apply to thinking about existing poems and to future >> work. The work you both did for us was both detailed and generous. A cle= ar, >> well-lit path. Many, many thanks for your focus and energy. It was a ver= y >> rich experience." *Diana Gordon, Northampton, MA* >> >> >> >> I have been to many good conferences, but what I liked about this one wa= s >> the sustained attention of my (and others') work, to whole manuscripts. = I >> appreciated the feedback which was local, general, and global=E2=80=94on= the poems >> themselves, including which lines don't work; on the sections; on the wh= ole >> conception and shape of the collection. I got specific ideas about titl= es, >> and the tension needed between the title and the first line=E2=80=A6spec= ific ideas >> about beginning in medias res, as it were, and not beginning with so muc= h >> narration (my problem). >> >> *Carol* *Gilbertson, Professor of English, Decorah, IA >> >> * >> >> It [the conference] helped me see with an editor's eyes. I now can imag= ine >> the process even more thoughtfully. It [the conference] surpassed my >> expectations. *Paul Brooke, Ames, IA * >> >> >> >> Thorough and frank opinions about the poems and manuscript. >> >> *Norm Goodwin, Edmonds, WA* >> >> >> >> I feel a new sense of motivation toward my work, and I'm prepared to get >> back into it and revise. I was pleased to receive, orally in our sessio= ns, >> detailed feedback from the editors/poets on faculty whose work I respect= . * >> Gary** Leising, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of English, Utica, NY >> * >> >> >> *For more information on this and other upcoming manuscript conferences, >> see:* >> ** >> *www.colrainpoetry.com* >> >> >> >> =20 Tyrone Williams ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 23:16:48 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Danny Snelson Subject: KHURMOOKUM: my Dear coUntess &/+ l'Ann=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9e?= Jarry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline dear POETICS, Out from the lurking realm of the unknown dimension, I'd like to introduce myself & share some things this fine Nov.1st. My name is Danny Snelson -- I've been on the server for some time, popping up occasional here & there -- I've been meaning to join proper for some time but have not been able in the shuffle recently relocated to Tokyo. Some may have seen my web work -- I began scanning/contributing to Craig Dworkin's inimitable eclipse archivea few years ago, edited the recent Spring 2007 series of /ubu editions & have done various thingswith the good people at Ugly Duckling Presse (wherein one mad-cap afternoon I retyped the entirety of Aram Saroyan's minimal poemsfor (re)publication). I sharity blog here . Writing now with the distinct pleasure to announce the launch debut of my Dear coUntess, a letter to lord kelvin -- a feature length conceptual writing project. Blazon: it considers contemporary epistolary forms, digital translation methods & the preeminent mode of confessional poetry 2.0 -- the vlog (or video blog) -- exhuming a telepathic letter you may recognize as once being transmitted by the posthumous soul of Dr. Faustroll as printed in Opinions & Exploitswell after the dismal demise of Alfred Jarry (now back in stock !). Further, keep on the watch -- the coUntess will be part of the (mis)Translation folio in Drunken Boat #9, forthcoming in Winter 2007. The folio will include magpie steals, transinhalations, computational recreations, transealations, straight and vexed translations, from French to French and from Bach to Fortran. (Sez Ravi Shankar, yr pal at Drunken Boat.) Now enjoy a hefty Jarry (RIP 11.1.07) centenary link cluster hubbub ! yrs, Danny ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Frank Sherlock, Dorothea Lasky, Dan Machlin do the tinyTOUR LIVING ROOM TINYtour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline How GREAT is it when some of your favorite poets are your friends!? (yes-yes some of my enemies write good poems too, but fuck them, I'm here to celebrate my friends on THE tinyTOUR! Go to PhillySound post today (Nov 1) to see all the details about watching this series of video taped readings in different rooms of Dorothea Lasky's Philadelphia apartment: http://PhillySound.blogspot.com WHO NEEDS A WORLD WITHOUT POETRY!? CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 11:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. Wellman" Subject: MSA9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I too am at MSA 9 presenting on Sunday morning. Topic: imagined and = emergent subjectivities in the visual arts and poetry: Armando Reveron, = Wilfredo Lam, Aim=E9 C=E9saire. The panel is 127. Primitivisms from = Spain, Latin America, and the Caribbean=20 Donald Wellman http://faculty.dwc.edu/wellman/don.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:57:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: Subtext Series = GOLDEN HANDCUFFS REVIEW-SEATTLE ISSUE LAUNCH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subtext continues its monthly reading series with a special evening to cele= brate the Golden Handcuffs Review - Seattle Issue Launch. This issue of GHR= was edited by Lou Rowan and Joe Donahue. The reading is at our new home at= the Chapel Performance Space on 7 November 2007. Donations for admission w= ill be taken at the door on the evening of the performance. The reading sta= rts at 7:30pm. Subtext invites you to join the authors and artists, most o= f whom will be there to meet you and read from their work, on November 7th.= About Golden Handcuffs Review: The world-renowned Harry Mathews has writte= n about Seattle's own Golden Handcuffs Review, "In letters, there is nothin= g like Golden Handcuffs Review, and nothing better." Rick Moody adds, "Gold= en Handcuffs is among the handful of truly important contemporary literary = magazines. It fights the good fight for work that would otherwise want for = a champion, and for this reason I read each issue with great enthusiasm." T= he new issue of Golden Handcuffs celebrates Seattle writers and artists, wi= th new essays, fiction, poetry by Curtis Bonney, Rebecca Brown, Daniel Comi= skey, April De Nonno, Christine Deavel, Joseph Donahue, Diana George, Randy= Hayes, Jeanne Heuving, Sarah Mangold, Ezra Mark, J.W. Marshall, Bryant Mas= on, Robert Mittenthal, Paul Nelson, Doug Nufer, John Olson, Roberta Olson, = Deniz Perin, C.E. Putnam, Cathleen Shattuck, Craig Van Riper, Nico Vassilak= is, and Maged Zaher. The artwork is by: Jaq Chartier, Randy Hayes, Brian Sm= ale, and Alice Wheeler. See http://www.goldenhandcuffsreview.com/ The futur= e Subtext schedule is: December 5, 2007 Alison Knowles (New York) - co-pres= ented with nonsequitur February 6, 2008 Hank Lazer (Tuscaloosa, AL) & TBA M= arch 5, 2008 Steve McCaffery (Toronto/Buffalo) & TBA For info on these & ot= her Subtext events, see our website at http://subtextreadingseries.blogspot= .com More info at Nonsequitur web site http://nseq.blogspot.com and details= on the Chapel can be found at http://gschapel.blogspot.com SPECIAL THANKS = to NONSEQUITUR for co-sponsoring this event. = ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:22:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: recipes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:56 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: recipes I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) ANNY, I SWEAR YOU WON'T TASTE THE EGGS (ONLY EGG WHITES REMEMBER/ WHAT TO DO WITH THOSE YOKES IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION BUT...) EGG WHITES QUICKLY CAMOFLAUGED WITH SUGAR, BALSALMIC VINEGAR AND CHOCOLATE AND GABRIELLE, I DON'T CARE IF YOU DON'T GET A SINGLE PRESENT THIS BIRTHDAY/ IT SIMPLY WON'T MATTER: THIS PAVLOVA WILL START YOUR YEAR OUT RIGHT--BEST WISHES--BOBBI On 10/30/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > oh god! i'm fainting... and my birthday's coming up... :-) > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe it > > all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a pavlova > > cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked > > for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a > > replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order > > (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good > > thing to include at poetry readings): > > > > CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA > > > > for the chocolate meringue base: > > 6 egg whites > > 1 cup granulated sugar > > 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted > > 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar > > 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped > > > > for the topping: > > 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream > > 1 very full pint raspberries > > 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated > > bittersweet chocolate > > > > > > Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper > > > > Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a spoonful > at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over the cocoa and > vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is > thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 > inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then > immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 hrs > When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides and > be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of > squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door > slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. > > When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. > Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the > meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate so > that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the raspberries' > luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly over te top, > letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. > > > > Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) > > Bobbi Lurie > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:33:15 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: 12 or 20 questions with Steve Venright Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT here: http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2007/11/12-or-20-questions-with-steve-venright.html rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:35:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: POETRY MANUSCRIPT CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT In-Reply-To: <16094304.1193924947805.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed I knew it wasn't a joke but wanted to ask if it was........ Nick On Nov 1, 2007, at 6:49 AM, tyrone williams wrote: > Maria, > > I thought that too but I'm afriad it's not.... > > Tyrone > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Maria Damon >> Sent: Oct 31, 2007 10:52 PM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: POETRY MANUSCRIPT CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT >> >> excuse me, but is this a joke? >> >> Joan Houlihan wrote: >>> *The Compleat Manuscript Poetry Conference * >>> *Next conference: November 30--December 4, 2007 * >>> >>> >>> >>> In this unique conference, where enrollment is strictly limited =20 >>> to six >>> qualified participants, each manuscript is thoroughly read by =20 >>> both editors >>> in the weeks before the conference begins. At the conference, =20 >>> Jeffrey >>> Levine, poet, editor and publisher of Tupelo Press and Joan =20 >>> Houlihan, poet, >>> editor and founder of the Concord Poetry Center, analyze and =20 >>> critically >>> discuss every manuscript with the author. This conference also =20 >>> provides >>> behind-the-scenes advice on submissions and recommendations for both >>> journals and presses. All poets read from their manuscripts at =20 >>> evening >>> readings. >>> >>> >>> >>> The November conference takes place in a quintessential New =20 >>> England setting >>> in view of the Berkshire mountain range at Spirit Fire, a lovely and >>> secluded retreat. For an application and complete guidelines, =20 >>> please visit >>> http://www.compleatmanuscript.com/November/ You may also call =20 >>> 978-897-0054, >>> email conferences@colrainpoetry.com or write to The Compleat =20 >>> Manuscript, >>> Concord Poetry Center, 40 Stow Street, Concord, MA 01742-2418. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Attendees say:* >>> >>> >>> >>> "Eye-opening..I wanted a stepped-back view of my work, and =20 >>> certainly got >>> one, one that I can apply to thinking about existing poems and to =20= >>> future >>> work. The work you both did for us was both detailed and =20 >>> generous. A clear, >>> well-lit path. Many, many thanks for your focus and energy. It =20 >>> was a very >>> rich experience." *Diana Gordon, Northampton, MA* >>> >>> >>> >>> I have been to many good conferences, but what I liked about this =20= >>> one was >>> the sustained attention of my (and others') work, to whole =20 >>> manuscripts. I >>> appreciated the feedback which was local, general, and global=97on =20= >>> the poems >>> themselves, including which lines don't work; on the sections; on =20= >>> the whole >>> conception and shape of the collection. I got specific ideas =20 >>> about titles, >>> and the tension needed between the title and the first line=85=20 >>> specific ideas >>> about beginning in medias res, as it were, and not beginning with =20= >>> so much >>> narration (my problem). >>> >>> *Carol* *Gilbertson, Professor of English, Decorah, IA >>> >>> * >>> >>> It [the conference] helped me see with an editor's eyes. I now =20 >>> can imagine >>> the process even more thoughtfully. It [the conference] surpassed my >>> expectations. *Paul Brooke, Ames, IA * >>> >>> >>> >>> Thorough and frank opinions about the poems and manuscript. >>> >>> *Norm Goodwin, Edmonds, WA* >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel a new sense of motivation toward my work, and I'm prepared =20= >>> to get >>> back into it and revise. I was pleased to receive, orally in our =20= >>> sessions, >>> detailed feedback from the editors/poets on faculty whose work I =20 >>> respect. * >>> Gary** Leising, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of English, Utica, NY >>> * >>> >>> >>> *For more information on this and other upcoming manuscript =20 >>> conferences, >>> see:* >>> ** >>> *www.colrainpoetry.com* >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > Tyrone Williams V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:49:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: manuscript conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline granted, i'm not an incredibly experienced or well-published poet, but this is the first time i've ever heard of such a thing! i checked the website and found no transparent display of cost (you have to send a personal email to request it) and am still baffled as to how said conference is supposed to benefit a poet or manuscript. it almost seems as if you're paying (after being selected to participate/pay) for a small audience with two publishers. the website boasts that 13 manuscripts workshopped at the conference have been published; my question is, by the editors in attendance? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:35:18 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: john newlove on jacket magazine (aus) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Australia's Jacket magazine has just posted three poems by Canadian poet John Newlove in their newest issue, as well as "These Things Form Poems When I Allow It: After John Newlove," an afterword by Jeff Derksen, to coincide with the publication of A Long Continual Argument: The Selected Poems of John Newlove, ed. Robert McTavish (Ottawa ON: Chaudiere Books) http://jacketmagazine.com/34/newlove-3.shtml http://jacketmagazine.com/34/derkson-newlove.shtml for information about the book (and how to order one), go to: http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2007/09/long-continual-argument-selected-poems.html yer wayward publisher, rob mclennan -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:35:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: deep image vs. language/BORGES/ J Wright/ Merwin, or A R AMMONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm still a novice at Language. I see it as a liberating trend, but recently, while reading Borges, I found myself nostalgic for more narrative in contemporary poetry. Borges, in "The Craft of Verse," seems to regret the absence of narrative in 20th century poetry. In his "Tape for the Turn of The Year," A. R. Ammons seems to have anticipated the LANGUAGE aesthetic (if aesthetic is the correct word). I consider the Tape an awesome poem. The reader never knows where Ammons will take one from one line to the next. & while there's seldom, if ever, a narrative in an Ammons poem, lots of things happen. There's action. I like that. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:08:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Ashbery at the Folger/ coming... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * John Ashbery Folger Shakespeare Library Monday, November 5, 7:30 pm Tickets: $12 http://www.folger.edu/woSummary.cfm?wotypeid=4&season=c&woid=402 John Ashbery's work bends and breaks from the traditional poetry narrative. His poems create and recreate reality in an ever-shifting landscape. Conversation moderated by Michael Collier, poet, Professor of Creative Writing, University of Maryland and Director of Breadloaf Writer's Conference. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:19:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: FOCUS ON PAVLOVA: PROPOSED PEACE TREATY FOR THE MIDDLE EAST AND PATHETIC MESS WORLD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:56 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: recipes I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) Anny, Gabrielle and everyone, What I omitted from this recipe was my true intention. Yes, it was meant for Catherine and her collection. But mostly it is my peace offering to the Middle East and the whole world looking about to be blown up. See, I figure, if ANYONEANYWHEREANYTIMEFOREVERMORE sits and eats this pavlova: THERE'S NO WAY ANYONE EATING THIS PAVLOVA IS GONNA THINK A BIT ABOUT WAR OR WHO SIDE THEY'RE ON AND AFTERWARDS HERE'S THE BEST PART: you need a nap--you've absolutely gotta sleep after eating this... Nowaynohow to blow up self and others in past-pavlova euphoria. So this is MY OFFERING FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. (i do pray it works...please "focus on pavlova"--world of ours pathetic mess) Bobbi Lurie On 10/30/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > oh god! i'm fainting... and my birthday's coming up... :-) > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe it > > all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a pavlova > > cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked > > for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a > > replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order > > (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good > > thing to include at poetry readings): > > > > CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA > > > > for the chocolate meringue base: > > 6 egg whites > > 1 cup granulated sugar > > 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted > > 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar > > 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped > > > > for the topping: > > 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream > > 1 very full pint raspberries > > 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated > > bittersweet chocolate > > > > > > Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper > > > > Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a spoonful > at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over the cocoa and > vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is > thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 > inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then > immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 hrs > When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides and > be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of > squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door > slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. > > When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. > Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the > meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate so > that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the raspberries' > luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly over te top, > letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. > > > > Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) > > Bobbi Lurie > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:16:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents: New at Possum Ego Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" "Looking back at my posts of September 1997, I see a young man ill equipped to participate in the environment of the Buffalo Poetics List. I trust that person (my old self), and his instinctive gestures and claims: but I cringe at his "parodic redeployments" (though I embrace his lack of theoretical sophistication). Still, if his vocabulary had been better constructed, perhaps his entrance on the List would have been eased. And, thinking of Derrida's On Hospitality, it is true that we do not get to choose who enters our domains. This creates opportunities for discussion and reflection through confrontation with the other-in whatever context you want to define other. Theorized through this notion of hospitality, Derrida suggests that "tolerance" draws boundaries that prevent engagements with the other. Such "tolerance" is unproductive in terms of communication. By testing one's identity in a context in which the other arrives to challenge us, we can develop strong arguments that further conversation without retreating into the safe categories of being we claim to protect us from the dynamic arguments of others."... Read more at http://possumego.blogspot.com -- Dale Smith La Revolution Opossum! http://www.skankypossum.com http://possumego.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 17:33:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Michael Mollohan" Subject: Re: RHETORIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Style: Strunk & White (period) Rhetoric: I used to have a good one my S.I. Hakawya, something like "Language and Thought in Action." Not sure of the exact title. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dubravka Djuric" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 8:05 AM Subject: RHETORIC DEAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE QUEST FOR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:11:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: MSA9 Comments: To: "D. Wellman" In-Reply-To: 000601c81c99$3ae30670$0201a8c0@owner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 All god's children are at MSA in Long Beach -- including me on a panel Friday afternoon talking about race and criticism -- with, I think I recall, Micahel Bibby and Grant Jenkins -- check the program -- On Thu, Nov 1, 2007 11:09 AM, "D. Wellman" wrote: > I too am at MSA 9 presenting on Sunday morning. Topic: imagined and emergent >subjectivities in the visual arts and poetry: Armando Reveron, Wilfredo Lam, >Aimé Césaire. The panel is 127. Primitivisms from Spain, Latin America, and >the Caribbean > >Donald Wellman >http://faculty.dwc.edu/wellman/don.htm > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 18:09:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project November In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello friends, We=B9ve been working around the clock here at The Poetry Project to provide you with excellent readings. Here=B9s what we have for you in the next week: Friday, November 2, 10 PM Felicia Luna Lemus & Jess Arndt Felicia Luna Lemus is the author of two novels, Like Son (Akashic, 2007) an= d Trace Elements of Random Tea Parties (2003). She teaches writing at The New School and lives in the East Village. Please visit felicialunalemus.com An avid student of old fashioned mixologies, vast piracy, and assorted buggery= , Jess Arndt is attempting to combine the three in her yet to be finished first novel, Shanghaied. Set in Gold Rush San Francisco, the story weaves and staggers through the opium dens, brothels and sailor holes of the Barbary Coast, continuously distracted by the gold-lust and tarts. Having just finished her MFA at Bard College, she trades her time between Brooklyn and a small island off the northwest coast of Washington State. She has mos= t recently been published in Velvet Mafia: Dangerous Queer Fiction, Instant City Journal, Encyclopedia Literary Journal, Bottoms Up! Writing About Sex from Soft Skull Press, and Baby Remember My Name, a new anthology edited by Michelle Tea. She has a short story coming out from Inconvenient Press late= r this fall, in collaboration with visual artist, Xylor Jane. Monday, November 5, 8 PM Open Reading Sign-up at 7:45 pm. Suggested reading time is three minutes. Wednesday, November 7, 8 PM Alice Notley & Akilah Oliver Alice Notley is the author of more than twenty-five books of poetry including the epic poem The Descent of Alette, and Mysteries of Small Houses, one of three finalists for the Pulitzer Prize and the winner of the Los Angeles Times Book Prize for Poetry. Notley=B9s long poem Disobedience wo= n the Griffin International Prize in 2002. In 2005 the University of Michigan Press published her book of essays on poetry, Coming After. Her most recent books are Alma, or The Dead Women, from Granary Books, Grave of Light: New and Selected Poems, from Wesleyan, and In the Pines from Penguin. Akilah Oliver is the author of The Putterer=B9s Notebook, a(A)ugust, An Arriving Guard of Angels Thusly Coming to Greet, and the she said dialogues: flesh memory, a book of experimental prose poetry honored by the PEN American Center=B9s =B3Open Book=B2 award. She has been artist in residence at Beyond Baroque Literary Arts Center in Los Angeles, and is core faculty at the Naropa University Summer Writing Program and adjunct faculty at Naropa. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:42:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Fw: Re: Bowery Poetry Club, 11/3 and 11/4 Comments: To: Acousticlv@aol.com, AdeenaKarasick@cs.com, AGosfield@aol.com, alonech@acedsl.com, Altjazz@aol.com, amirib@aol.com, Amramdavid@aol.com, anansi1@earthlink.net, AnselmBerrigan@aol.com, arlenej2@verizon.net, Barrywal23@aol.com, bdlilrbt@icqmail.com, butchershoppoet@hotmail.com, CarolynMcClairPR@aol.com, CaseyCyr@aol.com, CHASEMANHATTAN1@aol.com, Djmomo17@aol.com, Dsegnini1216@aol.com, Gfjacq@aol.com, Hooker99@aol.com, rakien@gmail.com, jeromerothenberg@hotmail.com, Jeromesala@aol.com, JillSR@aol.com, JoeLobell@cs.com, JohnLHagen@aol.com, kather8@katherinearnoldi.com, Kevtwi@aol.com, krkubert@hotmail.com, LakiVaz@aol.com, Lisevachon@aol.com, Nuyopoman@AOL.COM, Pedevski@aol.com, pom2@pompompress.com, Rabinart@aol.com, Rcmorgan12@aol.com, reggiedw@comcast.net, RichKostelanetz@aol.com, RnRBDN@aol.com, Smutmonke@aol.com, sprygypsy@yahoo.com, SHoltje@aol.com, Sumnirv@aol.com, tcumbie@nyc.rr.com, velasquez@nyc.com, VITORICCI@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tom church presents wallpaper: saturday 11am - 4 pm and sunday 5 pm - 8 pm richard kostelanetz jill rapaport bonnie finberg steve dalachinsky michael carter yuko otomo tomsavage ron kolm bruce webber joanne pagano ty cumbie, elleen christie ravish momin and many surprise guests tom church presents wallpaper ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:26:46 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: Reviewer for John Newlove for Jacket Magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Poeticists, If you would like to write a review of 'The Long Continual Argument: Selected Poems of John Newlove' for Jacket magazine please contact me here pDOTbrown62ATgmailDOTcom For further information : http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2007/09/long-continual-argument-selected-poems.html http://jacketmagazine.com/34/newlove-3.shtml http://jacketmagazine.com/34/derkson-newlove.shtml Thanks, All good wishes, Pam Brown _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ National Bingo Night. Play along for the chance to win $10,000 every week. Download your gamecard now at Yahoo!7 TV. http://au.blogs.yahoo.com/national-bingo-night/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 20:18:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura hinton Subject: Re: deep image vs. language/BORGES/ J Wright/ Merwin, or A R AMMONS In-Reply-To: <190550.21809.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Language" in of itself does not reject "narrative." See Carla Harryman, West Coast Language poet, in her short piece about narrative (There Never Was a Rose...), which I think makes a profound statement on this front. I think there's a difference between anti-narrative and non/narrative. The anti-narrative might be Don Quixote, Cervantes-style, a work that parodies or rejects narrative through its own "wandering." Non/narrative is a critique of the "master narratives" that create a lyric poem, for example (or a story or novel) before it is even written. They are implicit and part of the culture, and adapted and re-adapted, like the Hollywood stories. These kind of narratives are a far cry from Borges, whose labyrinth approach to "plot" is a critique of its own plotted-out tradition. We should have more like Borges. When Laura Mulvey famously discounted narrative (narrative as "sadism," as the infamous "male gaze"), she was specifically talking about the narratives of Hollywood "masters" (Hitchcock was her target), and the specific "realist" plots that "plot again" women. This is the idea of narrative as closure and linearity, not as critique or questioning the "naturalness" of the text. Laura fOn 11/1/07, steve russell wrote: > > I'm still a novice at Language. I see it as a liberating trend, but > recently, while reading Borges, I found myself nostalgic for more narrative > in contemporary poetry. Borges, in "The Craft of Verse," seems to regret the > absence of narrative in 20th century poetry. In his "Tape for the Turn of > The Year," A. R. Ammons seems to have anticipated the LANGUAGE aesthetic (if > aesthetic is the correct word). I consider the Tape an awesome poem. The > reader never knows where Ammons will take one from one line to the next. & > while there's seldom, if ever, a narrative in an Ammons poem, lots of things > happen. There's action. I like that. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 18:04:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wil Hallgren Subject: Re: deep image vs. language/BORGES/ J Wright/ Merwin, or A R AMMONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the risk of sticking my foot into the great unspoken "it" of this list, = I have always (as a reader for over 30 years) considered L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU= =3DA=3DG=3DE as a technique more than an aesthetic: one which would natural= ly devolve in much the same way that surrealistic touches replaced the tota= l embrace of full-blown surrealistic effluents in the fifties, sixties and = seventies. =0A Schools of poetry seem to have a life-span where adheren= ts flourish, immerse themselves, and then several of the prime practitioner= s synthesize the best practices and move on: witness the more recent poetry= of Charles Bernstein -- one would be hard pressed to call it "pure" langua= ge; it has moved into a sort of cross-pollinated narrative/polemic impulse.= I like it much better than his "pure" language works. I think there are va= st unexplored potentials in cross pollinating language elements with narrat= ive structures, andI like the idea that as one gets older one gets better. = =0A Like the history of surrealism I foresee the future of "language" e= lements in American poetry as becoming a non-linear flourish in service of = a rhetoric in search of greater clarity and precision, and not as an end in= itself -- an interlude within the structure of an over-arching poem rather= than the dominant concern of poem itself. When a movement becomes a usefu= l trope in the ongoing rhetoric of the humanities then that movement has do= ne something very useful in the history of mankind. =0A Ur poemslike Am= mons' "Tape..."(it's influence goes beyond "language" to second generation= BMC & NYS -- and wide-spred non-aligned Ammons followers, as well), often = contain the strong seeds of a resolution(of supposed opposites) as well. L= ook at how many fertile ideas you can still draw from the original "Spring = and All" by W.C. Williams (New Directions "Imaginations").=0A =0A-- Wil Hal= lgren=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: steve russell =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, November= 1, 2007 2:35:30 PM=0ASubject: deep image vs. language/BORGES/ J Wright/ Me= rwin, or A R AMMONS=0A=0A=0AI'm still a novice at Language. I see it as a l= iberating trend, but recently, while reading Borges, I found myself nostalg= ic for more narrative in contemporary poetry. Borges, in "The Craft of Vers= e," seems to regret the absence of narrative in 20th century poetry. In his= "Tape for the Turn of The Year," A. R. Ammons seems to have anticipated th= e LANGUAGE aesthetic (if aesthetic is the correct word). I consider the Tap= e an awesome poem. The reader never knows where Ammons will take one from o= ne line to the next. & while there's seldom, if ever, a narrative in an Amm= ons poem, lots of things happen. There's action. I like that. =0A =0A_= _________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!?=0ATired = of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp://mail.ya= hoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 22:47:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: SLSA talk on Gray Barker and Flying Saucers and Stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed http://www.asondheim.org/saucer.mp3 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 20:45:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Yahoo in China In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Yahoo in apology on China By Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Washington and Mure Dickie in Beijing Published: November 1 2007 20:29 | Last updated: November 1 2007 20:29 A top Yahoo official who has come under fire for the company=92s role in the 2004 imprisonment of a dissident in China apologised on Thursday for failing to tell US lawmakers that Yahoo knew more about the case than he initially acknowledged in testimony last year. Michael Callahan, Yahoo=92s executive vice president and general counsel, said in a statement ahead of a congressional hearing next week that he =93realised=94 that Yahoo had additional information about the nature of the probe into one of its users, Shi Tao, a journalist now serving a 10-year prison sentence in China, months after he testified that Yahoo had =93no information=94 about the investigation. Yahoo has faced intense criticism for its involvement in the case because, according to US lawmakers, police in Beijing only found Mr Shi after Yahoo provided them with his e-mail account, IP address log-on history, and the contents of his e-mails. According to the lawmakers, at the time of Mr Callahan=92s earlier testimony Yahoo was in possession of a 2004 order issued by the Chinese government. The order said that authorities were seeking information about a user on suspicions that he =93illegally provided state secrets to foreign entities=94 =96 a charge that is often invoked in cases involving political dissidents. =93Months after I testified before two House subcommittees on Yahoo=92s approach to business in China, I realised Yahoo had additional information about a 2004 order issued by the Chinese government seeking information about a Yahoo China user,=94 Mr Callahan said in the statement. The existence of the order was made public after a San Francisco-based human rights group released the documents. =93I neglected to directly alert the committee of this new information and that oversight led to a misunderstanding that I deeply regret and have apologised to the committee for creating,=94 Mr Callahan said. He added that in consultations with committee staff they agreed that his 2006 testimony was =93truthful=94. He is expected to testify that a lawyer for Yahoo in Asia failed to brief him on the order because the lawyer did not believe it was significant. The apology marks a shift in strategy at Yahoo, to strike a more conciliatory tone. Last month, the company said it was =93grossly unfair=94 that the company was being singled out by lawmakers on the House foreign relations committee for giving false information to Congress. Jerry Yang, Yahoo=92s chief executive, will also testify at the hearing next week, and is expected to highlight the challenges US businesses face in countries that restrict access to information. Yahoo gave up direct control of its China operations when it sold them to the Chinese business website Alibaba in 2005 after failing to come up with a business strategy that would enable it to win a significant share of the local internet portal market. Yahoo could still be vulnerable to future human rights-related cases involving Yahoo China, since Alibaba=92s boss, Jack Ma, made no secret of his willingness to co-operate closely with Beijing=92s authorities and with any investigations into users. Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007 --=20 Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm --=20 http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different=85 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:30:23 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Will alexander MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To mention here, half the cover price of any copies of Will Alexander's Above the Human Nerve Domain (hard or soft cover) are donated to Will directly to cover his current difficulties from now until the end of November. If you want the hard cover pay us directly at: info@pavementsaw.org for a total of $78 if you want the softcover the cost is $14. If you could send this around Will would greatly appreciate it. If you would like to send donations direct, make them out to Will Alexander to the address below. Thanks-- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:24:15 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: what might be foetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alan-- Through my experience with foetry I have found that assuming that the material was written by anyone other than the owner would not hold weight in general. From being a anonymous website, to revealing who "you" are, to creating an anonymous blog, to not choosing to justify your accusations with fact, to waiting for nearly six months to respond to charges leveled against you'all, to not allowing me to respond to unfounded accusations made against us and people I know, to having multiple addresses contact me to refute such charges, to those individuals (some purporting to be you, others just privy to the "info I sent," and copying that material in their accusatory material, to appearances on your website without permission, to my offering to sue you if the material was not removed, to someone removing the material and so on, I cannot say that one speaks as "being" from foetry has any weight. From editors, poets, and others on the end of your wrath that I have spoken with this is common. Accuse first, find out facts later. Your pseudonomynous existence makes it so that it is unclear who is speaking. Sorry you create so much confusion. Perhaps this blueholz thing is you. Or another screen to hide behind. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 23:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: poets JACKSON MAC LOW and GIL OTT: 1979 interview /\\///\\\\/////\\\\\\///////\\\\\\\\///////// MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This marvelous interview has reached the surface once again. To read it go to: http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html Thanks to all who made this possible, CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 23:45:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: HEY BALTIMORE! reading saturday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Amy King Bruce Covey CAConrad details: http://CAConradEVENTS.blogspot.com see ya Baltimore friends! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:03:56 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: FOCUS ON PAVLOVA: PROPOSED PEACE TREATY FOR THE MIDDLE EAST AND PATHETIC MESS WORLD In-Reply-To: <8C9EAD33ACE8326-31C-4D82@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You know, I think it would be great to look at such pavlova as a model for poetry. I would like to write poems that so occupy the mind that one cannot think of war while reading them and that give one enough information to process that the brain demands a nap. Elizabeth Kate Switaj http://www.elizabethkateswitaj.net On 11/2/07, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:56 +0100 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: recipes > > I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) > > Anny, Gabrielle and everyone, > What I omitted from this recipe was my true intention. > Yes, it was meant for Catherine and her collection. > But mostly it is my peace offering to the Middle East and the whole world > looking about to be blown up. See, I figure, if > ANYONEANYWHEREANYTIMEFOREVERMORE sits and eats this pavlova: > THERE'S NO WAY ANYONE EATING THIS PAVLOVA IS GONNA THINK A BIT ABOUT > WAR OR WHO SIDE THEY'RE ON AND AFTERWARDS HERE'S THE BEST PART: you need > a nap--you've absolutely gotta sleep after eating this... > Nowaynohow to blow up self and others in past-pavlova euphoria. > So this is MY OFFERING FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. > (i do pray it works...please "focus on pavlova"--world of ours pathetic > mess) > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:21:19 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: We have a reviewer for John Newlove MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks everyone, We have a reviewer for John Newlove's book for Jacket magazine. Cheerio from Pam _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ National Bingo Night. Play along for the chance to win $10,000 every week. Download your gamecard now at Yahoo!7 TV. http://au.blogs.yahoo.com/national-bingo-night/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 00:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:31:52 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Latest Jacket: Jesse Glass poems and Picture Picture Picture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Two poems--and--oh yes--a picture! (I'm in the midst of saying Yushya! Yushya! while carrying a portable shrine for the general good luck of the community.) Generally lucky, Jess ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 06:38:29 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: RHETORIC In-Reply-To: <003201c81cce$ca94cfd0$6400a8c0@Janus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Back in the day, one used to read Richard Lanham--not sure if that's still the case. "J. Michael Mollohan" wrote: Style: Strunk & White (period) Rhetoric: I used to have a good one my S.I. Hakawya, something like "Language and Thought in Action." Not sure of the exact title. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dubravka Djuric" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 8:05 AM Subject: RHETORIC DEAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE QUEST FOR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:22:32 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: recipes In-Reply-To: <8C9EAC2F80865EC-31C-43FE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bobbie, I will be happy with both chocolate and raspberries, don't worry! And before maybe that tasty brocomole that Mark Weiss carefully prepared, cheers, Anny On 11/1/07, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:56 +0100 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: recipes > > I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) > > ANNY, I SWEAR YOU WON'T TASTE THE EGGS (ONLY EGG WHITES REMEMBER/ WHAT TO > DO WITH THOSE > YOKES IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION BUT...) EGG WHITES QUICKLY CAMOFLAUGED > WITH SUGAR, BALSALMIC VINEGAR AND CHOCOLATE AND GABRIELLE, I DON'T CARE IF > YOU DON'T GET > A SINGLE PRESENT THIS BIRTHDAY/ IT SIMPLY WON'T MATTER: THIS PAVLOVA WILL > START YOUR YEAR OUT > RIGHT--BEST WISHES--BOBBI > > On 10/30/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > > oh god! i'm fainting... and my birthday's coming up... :-) > > > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > > > Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe > it > > > all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a > pavlova > > > cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked > > > for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a > > > replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order > > > (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good > > > thing to include at poetry readings): > > > > > > CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA > > > > > > for the chocolate meringue base: > > > 6 egg whites > > > 1 cup granulated sugar > > > 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted > > > 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar > > > 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped > > > > > > for the topping: > > > 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream > > > 1 very full pint raspberries > > > 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated > > > bittersweet chocolate > > > > > > > > > Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper > > > > > > Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a > spoonful > > at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over the cocoa > and > > vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is > > thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 > > inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then > > immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 > hrs > > When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides > and > > be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of > > squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door > > slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. > > > When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. > > Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the > > meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate > so > > that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the > raspberries' > > luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly over te > top, > > letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. > > > > > > Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) > > > Bobbi Lurie > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 01:44:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Looking for two poets: Christopher Barnes & Scott Abels In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 If this is you (you) or, perchance, you know him, them, might you pass along, preferably back channel, an e-mail -- or some form of unintrusive contact. Sometimes I wonder, feel disillusioned because am trying to figure out what it means to be a poet, to whom am I 'speaking,' that what, going back to baseball, and you'd know something about this, you, but that what that makes a poet, his/her contribution worthy remembering (and for some reason am fixated on Earle Combs and Harry Hooper, even Lefty Gomez, the Ted Williams-type there, but then they'd spit on the crowd). I am trying to transcend these ordinary notions of relevance. Speaking with others, some of you included, am left, still, thinking about Simic, about Creeley, about all those meanings inscribed. Whew! I remember chatting with Harry Nudel, remember him, a bit scraggly and bitter, self-serving, but strangely enough, he said of RC, to paraphrase, that he would be the one on knees talking up to the cleaning lady for hours, and how those conversations made their way into process-oriented poems - this 'grace' of which I spoke (and grace was something I learnt living in a monastery, chatting with some of the most thoughtful individuals ever met, back then along the Austrian border, walking along hilltops to encounter a hundred-year-old grave with a bunch of fresh cut flowers, and in the wintertime, many of these monks having spent half-century imprisoned). I remember, too, chatting with some wonderfully talented folk in Kolkata, and we know how vital Kolkata is, don't we, all of us so entrenched in what is happening Stateside, who still believe something about duty to culture-at-large. Anyway, I am still here. -- Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:19:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Reminder: FUNKHOUSER & GINS at Segue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CHRIS FUNKHOUSER and MADELINE GINS =20 Saturday November 3, 4:00-6:00 p.m. Segue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, one block above Houston $6 goes to support the readers =20 Chris Funkhouser was awarded a Fulbright Scholarship in 2006 to lecture and= conduct research in Malaysia, where his CD-ROM eBook Selections 2.0 was pr= oduced at Multimedia University. Prehistoric Digital Poetry: An Archaeology= of Forms, 1959-1995, a history of pre-WWW computerized poetry, has just be= en published by University of Alabama Press. =20 Madeline Gins: B-b-b-b-b-orn and intends never to die. Three of her eleven = books: What the President Will Say and Do!; Helen Keller or Arakawa; Making= Dying Illegal (co-author Arakawa). Three of five Arakawa + Gins=92 built w= orks: Bioscleave House=96East Hampton; Site of Reversible Destiny=96Yoro; R= eversible Destiny Lofts=96Mitaka. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:50:23 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicky Melville Subject: the ShellSuit Massacre Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 hi, i'm currently working with another Scottish poet, Rodney Relax, as a 'band'= performing poetry to experimental guitar based techno (poetechno?). =20 the text is a, mostly found, mosaic, taken from newspapers, election flyers= and even, god forbid, T.S.Eliot, to reflect certain aspects of modern scot= tish/british life.=20 does anyone know of anything similar being done? hope you can give it a listen. here's a link to our myspace, where there are four tracks: www.myspace.com/theshellsuitmassacremusic and here's a link to a short video from one of our performances: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKjCynEm-5yQ awe thu best,=20 nick-e melville _________________________________________________________________ Celeb spotting =96 Play CelebMashup and win cool prizes https://www.celebmashup.com= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:59:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Deep image, part 11: question........ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had the most significant influence over my way of looking at poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he influenced Language poets? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:11:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: antioch in ohio In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I heard Antioch College in Yellow Springs OH will close, anyone know anymore info about this? Greatly appreciated, thanks --d Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:18:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James T Sherry Subject: Saturday Nov 3: Madeline Gins & Chris Funkhouser Reading Comments: To: segue n MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhpcyBXZWVrIEF0IEJvd2VyeSBQb2V0cnkgQ2x1Yg0KDQogU0VHVUUgUkVBRElORyBTRVJJRVMg QCBCT1dFUlkgUE9FVFJZIENMVUINCg0KU2F0dXJkYXlzOiA0OjAwIHAubS4gLSA2OjAwIHAubS4z MDggQk9XRVJZLCBqdXN0IG5vcnRoIG9mIEhvdXN0b24qKioqJDYgDQphZG1pc3Npb24gaGVscHMg c3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgcmVhZGVycyoqKioNCg0KTk9WRU1CRVIgMyAgICAgICAgICAgICAgQ0hSSVMg RlVOS0hPVVNFUiBhbmQgTUFERUxJTkUgR0lOUyBDaHJpcyANCkZ1bmtob3VzZXIgd2FzIGF3YXJk ZWQgYSBGdWxicmlnaHQgU2Nob2xhcnNoaXAgaW4gMjAwNiB0byBsZWN0dXJlIGFuZCANCmNvbmR1 Y3QgcmVzZWFyY2ggaW4gTWFsYXlzaWEsIHdoZXJlIGhpcyBDRC1ST00gZUJvb2sgU2VsZWN0aW9u cyAyLjAgd2FzIA0KcHJvZHVjZWQgYXQgTXVsdGltZWRpYSBVbml2ZXJzaXR5LiBQcmVoaXN0b3Jp YyBEaWdpdGFsIFBvZXRyeTogQW4gDQpBcmNoYWVvbG9neSBvZiBGb3JtcywgMTk1OS0xOTk1LCBh IGhpc3Rvcnkgb2YgcHJlLVdXVyBjb21wdXRlcml6ZWQgcG9ldHJ5LCANCmhhcyBqdXN0IGJlZW4g cHVibGlzaGVkIGJ5IFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgb2YgQWxhYmFtYSBQcmVzcy4gTWFkZWxpbmUgR2luczog DQpCLWItYi1iLWItb3JuIGFuZCBpbnRlbmRzIG5ldmVyIHRvIGRpZS4gIFRocmVlIG9mIGhlciBl bGV2ZW4gYm9va3M6IFdoYXQgDQp0aGUgUHJlc2lkZW50IFdpbGwgU2F5IGFuZCBEbyE7IEhlbGVu IEtlbGxlciBvciBBcmFrYXdhOyBNYWtpbmcgRHlpbmcgDQpJbGxlZ2FsIChjby1hdXRob3IgQXJh a2F3YSkuIFRocmVlIG9mIGZpdmUgQXJha2F3YSArIEdpbnPigJkgYnVpbHQgd29ya3M6IA0KQmlv c2NsZWF2ZSBIb3VzZeKAk0Vhc3QgSGFtcHRvbjsgU2l0ZSBvZiBSZXZlcnNpYmxlIERlc3Rpbnni gJNZb3JvOyBSZXZlcnNpYmxlIA0KRGVzdGlueSBMb2Z0c+KAk01pdGFrYS4NCg0KDQoNCkphbWVz IFQgU2hlcnJ5DQpTZWd1ZSBGb3VuZGF0aW9uDQooMjEyKSA0OTMtNTk4NCwgOC0zNDAtNTk4NA0K c2hlcnJ5akB1cy5pYm0uY29tDQoNCg== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:06:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Petition for Academic Freedom//Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the University MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline From Jewish Voice for Peace "Muzzlewatch": Articles in Haaretz and The Guardian have been appearing in recent months on the "New McCarthyism" in the USA and the dangers it is posing for freedom of speech, thought, research and for peace Profs from top universities say no to false charges of anti-Semitism, attacks on academic freedom http://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=284 The sender also included this note: please sign the attached petition -- Sent via a FeedFlare link from a FeedBurner feed. http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/publishers/feedflare ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:52:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Weekend Warriors! New Work Up ... In-Reply-To: <633832.45607.qm@web36213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIPOesias presents: ARI BANIAS – “who is ghost” – “From Somewhere in the Middle” – “Find Love in Brooklyn Now!” – “ If Fear Were the Teacher” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/banias_ari.htm ~~ KATE BELES – “Faulkner’s Caddy” – “Count Me In” – “An Apology for my Father” – “The Signified” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/beles_kate.htm ~~ ANA BOZICEVIC-BOWLING – “Voicemail Anthem” – “Oranges” – “Fall Hopscotch” – “The Moment of Love! (a Board Game)” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/bowling-bozicevic_ana.htm ~~ DANIELLE PAFUNDA – “The Man in Your Life Will Exercise His Fink ‘til it Wail” - “Punishment” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/pafunda_danielle.htm ~~ SAMPSON STARKWEATHER – “A Review of a Review of Robert Olen Butler’s Severance” – “Prussian Dance Steps are Making a Comeback, Or a Review of a Review of Zoli by Colum McCann” – “A Review of Ms. Pac-Man” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/starkweather_sampson.htm ~~ RECENTLY PUBLISHED: Kazim Ali http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/ali_kazim.htm Bill Cassidy http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/cassidy_bill.htm Maxine Chernoff http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/chernoff_maxine.htm Paul Hoover http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/hoover_paul.htm Jim Knowles http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/knowles_jim_review1.htm Danielle Pafunda http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/pafunda_danielle.htm Stephanie Strickland http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/strickland_stephanie.htm Diane Wald http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/wald_diane.htm Enjoy! Amy King Editor MiPOesias http://www.mipoesias.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:53:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: RHETORIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/2007 10:31:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ddjms@EUNET.YU writes: DEAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE QUEST FOR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE Alan Ainsworth's anthology 75 Arguments (McGraw-Hill Co's). AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:25:05 -0400 Reply-To: Jeff Davis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Davis Subject: Jessica Smith this Sunday on Wordplay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This week on WPVM.com's Wordplay: Charlottesville (and, formerly, Buffalo) poet Jessica Smith reads from her Organic Furniture Cellar and talks with host Jeff Davis about her work, which has spatial as well as temporal dimensions. The program broadcasts (and streams) at 4:00 PM on Sunday, and then is available from the station's archive page (http://wpvm.org/nav/archives/, just scroll down for Wordplay) as either a stream or a podcast. Jeff Davis On the web at http://naturespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:33:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Petition for Academic Freedom//Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the University In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Included among vanishing cultures could be universities where supposedly academic freedom reigns. David Chirot wrote: From Jewish Voice for Peace "Muzzlewatch": Articles in Haaretz and The Guardian have been appearing in recent months on the "New McCarthyism" in the USA and the dangers it is posing for freedom of speech, thought, research and for peace Profs from top universities say no to false charges of anti-Semitism, attacks on academic freedom http://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=284 The sender also included this note: please sign the attached petition -- Sent via a FeedFlare link from a FeedBurner feed. http://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/publishers/feedflare __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina E Lovin Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <598C7C41-4370-439F-8854-AC88EE11FD3F@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:54:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: wikipedia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The coverage of poetry is pretty dire. The coverage of physics is amazing -- really well done, gone through with a fine toothed comb, and strictly policed for cranks. I think on balance "we poets critics &c." should steer clear of wikipedia. The current network of blogging, websites, etc. is wonderfully decentralized and captures the sort of dynamism that is going on. People who want to learn about a new writer will get a great deal from jumping into someone's blog and following the linktrail. The problem with wikipedia is that it has such "google juice". Once an article gets created on a subject, no matter how poor, it jumps to the top of the google results. In a sense, the crappy article becomes the "gateway" for the curious, and I don't think we want that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:03:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: wikipedia (an example) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed http://www.google.com/search?q=j+h+prynne&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a I think profs should ask -- do I want my class assignment to be the first thing someone clicks on when they google Prynne? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._H._Prynne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:07:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Suzanne Burns Subject: Re: Ahadada Presents Kittihood By The Pussipo Collective, A New E-Chapbook In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline How does one become a Pussipo collaborator? This is AWESOME. :-) On 9/18/07, Jesse Glass wrote: > > Catherine Daly and her Pussipo collaborators continue to deconstruct > Hello Kitty in this wonderful, pink e-anthology. Cathy Eisenhower, > Elisa Gabbert, Danielle Pafunda, and Kathrine Varnes all lend a paw and > a claw, and it's perfectly free for the clicking at > www.ahadadabooks.com. Enjoy! Jess > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:37:24 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chax@THERIVER.COM Subject: Re: RHETORIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Six Lectures on Sound and Meaning might be one good place to start in the works of Roman Jakobson, but I would think his work would be key to take into account in any study since, of rhetoric. And Kenneth Burke, A Rhetoric of Motives, and other works, would be key, as well. charles > > In a message dated 11/1/2007 10:31:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > ddjms@EUNET.YU writes: > > DEAR LIST MEMBERS, > > COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. > > THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE > QUEST > FOR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION > > THANKS IN ADVANCE > > > Alan Ainsworth's anthology 75 Arguments (McGraw-Hill Co's). AMB > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:41:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <-4284323742464665201@unknownmsgid> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've assigned "wiki-subversion" assignments to students: alter the text of a Wiki page and print it up. What's the point of this? After students see how easy it is to create a false or misleading entry, they reconsider (or pause, at least) when taking information from the Internet. -Ryan On Nov 2, 2007 4:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > the truth and the way,'" she said. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:46:57 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chax@THERIVER.COM Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <000301c81d8d$27b5cfc0$77216f40$@lovin@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not knowing much about Li-Young Lee (I heard him read once, tried to read his work a couple of times, but it was not a kind of poetry in which I was interested, at least at that time), but wanting to learn, I'd be interested in your report of just what is wrong about the Wikipedia entry for him. I have found entries on poets I like a lot to be, well, not deep, but not inaccurate. See entries on Hugo Ball, Susan Howe, Harryette Mullen, Jackson Mac Low, and Alice Notley, among others. Still, I agree that these are not places I would advise students to go when researching a topic. Particularly they are not places I would advise students to stop, i.e. the information found on Wikipedia is usually just the surface, even when it's not incorrect. charles > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > the truth and the way,'" she said. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina E Lovin Subject: Re: antioch in ohio In-Reply-To: <5043.24220.qm@web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was in attendance at and honored to be the Judson Jerome Scholar at this past summer's Antioch Writers' Workshop. The announcement had just been made about the college closing. There were several announcements during the workshop regarding the closing. This is from the website: Response to the Announcement of Antioch College's Closing The Antioch Writers' Workshop is deeply saddened by the announcement of the closing of Antioch College in July of 2008. The Antioch Writers' Workshop will continue to present its annual summer writing conference in Yellow Springs, Ohio, this year and for many years to come. Although the workshop originated at Antioch College in 1986, in 1993 a 501(C)(3) nonprofit entity was created, the Yellow Springs Writers' Workshop, and we have operated as an independent organization, separate from Antioch College, for the past 14 years. The Antioch Writers' Workshop recognizes Antioch College's tradition of literary excellence, with such notable writing alumni as Lawrence Block, Ralph Keyes, Sylvia Nasar, Louis Sachar, Dava Sobel, Mark Strand, and Rod Serling. It is our fervent hope that Antioch College will be able to restore itself and reopen in the future. The Antioch Writers' Workshop will continue to partner with Antioch University McGregor to provide continuing education credit opportunities for our participants -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of David Baratier Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 12:12 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: antioch in ohio I heard Antioch College in Yellow Springs OH will close, anyone know anymore info about this? Greatly appreciated, thanks --d Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:15:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina E Lovin Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <000301c81d8d$27b5cfc0$77216f40$@lovin@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been removed. But they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see what someone could so easily add to an entry. Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' research. I do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add information. Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Christina E Lovin Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:25:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <2294387434499124430@unknownmsgid> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I avoid Wikipedia problems in classes by telling students that they're welcome to use Wikipedia to find links to original articles/sources, but that the Wiki text itself is off-limits. -ryan On Nov 2, 2007 5:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been removed. But > they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see what > someone could so easily add to an entry. > > Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. > > I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' research. I > do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add > information. > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Christina E Lovin > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > the truth and the way,'" she said. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 22:38:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <1523.150.135.84.71.1194040017.squirrel@spamfilter.nationwide.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alternatively, one could workk to make the entires on poetry better. More free work, just what we need! But seriously, I love Wikipedia and I use it all the time and find it very helpful. Example: Not long ago, I was writing a piece on a painter who'd painted some paintings of the Merritt Parkway. Well, you would not believe the amount of info on the Merritt Parkway that's on Wikipedia. Not that I needed to cite any of it--just that I could feel confident that nothing I was going to say in passing about the Merritt Parkway would actually be wrong. Fantastic. Why there isn't as much information on a poet as on a highway is what I'd like to know. I've donated money to Wikipedia but if I had more time, I'd donate that too. chax@THERIVER.COM wrote: Not knowing much about Li-Young Lee (I heard him read once, tried to read his work a couple of times, but it was not a kind of poetry in which I was interested, at least at that time), but wanting to learn, I'd be interested in your report of just what is wrong about the Wikipedia entry for him. I have found entries on poets I like a lot to be, well, not deep, but not inaccurate. See entries on Hugo Ball, Susan Howe, Harryette Mullen, Jackson Mac Low, and Alice Notley, among others. Still, I agree that these are not places I would advise students to go when researching a topic. Particularly they are not places I would advise students to stop, i.e. the information found on Wikipedia is usually just the surface, even when it's not incorrect. charles > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > the truth and the way,'" she said. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:03:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <1523.150.135.84.71.1194040017.squirrel@spamfilter.nationwide.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Personally, I find Wikipedia very useful. And I expect this is true for millions of people. Students have to know how to use it. Because they certainly are going to use it. Don't put your head in the sand and pretend otherwise. They have to learn how verify information on the Internet. And to be very careful about using information they haven't verified. We all have fallen for false information at one time or another on the Internet. Whenever I've been involved in a story that ended up in a newspaper, I've been amazed at how inaccurate the details were in the newspaper. Of course it isn't just the newspapers or the Internet where false information occurs frequently. The kids need to learn to be critical, to become media literate. You don't get that way by being instructed to simply avoid things like Wikipedia. Deal with it. I like the assignment to introduce falsities into Wikipedia. Good one. As long as they don't get tagged by the Wikipedians as bandits. Concerning Simon's point about not liking Wikipedia concerning its 'coverage' of poets and poetry and preferring, instead, blogs and sites and such, I agree that Wikipedia is no substitute for all other sources of information. Centrality that connects to the periphery is also useful. Connect the central to the peripheral. How's that for an assignment? ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:42:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <001901c81d95$91c8aec0$b55a0c40$%lovin@worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll chime in and say what I said to my students on the wikipedia subject. Nature did a fairly exhaustive comparison of Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica (sorry, can't afford the nature subscription to link to that study, but an intrepid person could probably dig it up). The result was that the two were dead even, which says one thing pretty clearly- encyclopedias are what they are, curiosity saters and occasional beacons to better sources, but not research material. Personally, I commend wikipedia for how good it is on current events, its "news worthy" entries on recent events are occasionally better than AP. I've found decent stuff on poets like Robert Duncan or H.D., scant little on some more recent (curious to go check out the entry on Susan Howe though). Even more offensive to me were entries on jazz musicians, particularly drummers- there was a large scrolling page for Louis Bellson and barely a paragraph for Kenny Clarke, the latter being, with no disrespect to Louis, appreciably more important to the history of the music and his instrument. The expression of race bias was fairly obvious to me. Might go back and check if the phenomenon repeats itself in literature (how does Langston Hughes' page compare to Carl Sandburg's?) Dillon On Nov 2, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been > removed. But > they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see > what > someone could so easily add to an entry. > > Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. > > I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' > research. I > do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add > information. > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Christina E Lovin > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi > (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > the truth and the way,'" she said. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:21:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I couldn't agree more. My Mom is a Library Media Specialist who teaches K-12, and one of the things she's always doing when teaching kids research skills is explaining to them the importance of using the internet properly. Wikipedia is a good example of that. She actually did one lesson last year where she and I conspired to a couple of changes to the wikipedia article about her school district right before the class she was teaching looked at it. the information was wildly incorrect and the object of the lesson was to try to figure out how to find out the correct information. lots of fun was had all around. On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Jim Andrews wrote: > Personally, I find Wikipedia very useful. And I expect this is true for > millions of people. > > Students have to know how to use it. Because they certainly are going to use > it. Don't put your head in the sand and pretend otherwise. > > They have to learn how verify information on the Internet. And to be very > careful about using information they haven't verified. > > We all have fallen for false information at one time or another on the > Internet. > > Whenever I've been involved in a story that ended up in a newspaper, I've > been amazed at how inaccurate the details were in the newspaper. Of course > it isn't just the newspapers or the Internet where false information occurs > frequently. > > The kids need to learn to be critical, to become media literate. You don't > get that way by being instructed to simply avoid things like Wikipedia. Deal > with it. I like the assignment to introduce falsities into Wikipedia. Good > one. As long as they don't get tagged by the Wikipedians as bandits. > > Concerning Simon's point about not liking Wikipedia concerning its > 'coverage' of poets and poetry and preferring, instead, blogs and sites and > such, I agree that Wikipedia is no substitute for all other sources of > information. > > Centrality that connects to the periphery is also useful. Connect the > central to the peripheral. How's that for an assignment? > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 02:46:44 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Lovin Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good ideas for debunking Internet junk, guys. I'm sure if you're teaching graduate students, they understand the need for further research (or I would hope so, at least), and could effectively use a web tool such as Wikipedia. Many undergrads (particularly in freshman comp) are only looking for a source to lift a couple of quotes from, then include on their Bibliography or Works Cited page, regardless of the validity. Case in point: the "Male Pregnancy" webpage (http://www.malepregnancy.com/). Looks pretty real, has testimonials, and a real-time "monitor" that shows the father's heart beat (or the "baby's"). Unfortunately, Mr. Lei has been pregnant for at least three semesters now (and I don't mean trimesters!). It's a good website to help show students how any website can be set up to look legit. Thanks for the input. Christina -------------- Original message from Jason Quackenbush : -------------- > I couldn't agree more. My Mom is a Library Media Specialist who teaches K-12, > and one of the things she's always doing when teaching kids research skills is > explaining to them the importance of using the internet properly. Wikipedia is a > good example of that. She actually did one lesson last year where she and I > conspired to a couple of changes to the wikipedia article about her school > district right before the class she was teaching looked at it. the information > was wildly incorrect and the object of the lesson was to try to figure out how > to find out the correct information. lots of fun was had all around. > > > On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > Personally, I find Wikipedia very useful. And I expect this is true for > > millions of people. > > > > Students have to know how to use it. Because they certainly are going to use > > it. Don't put your head in the sand and pretend otherwise. > > > > They have to learn how verify information on the Internet. And to be very > > careful about using information they haven't verified. > > > > We all have fallen for false information at one time or another on the > > Internet. > > > > Whenever I've been involved in a story that ended up in a newspaper, I've > > been amazed at how inaccurate the details were in the newspaper. Of course > > it isn't just the newspapers or the Internet where false information occurs > > frequently. > > > > The kids need to learn to be critical, to become media literate. You don't > > get that way by being instructed to simply avoid things like Wikipedia. Deal > > with it. I like the assignment to introduce falsities into Wikipedia. Good > > one. As long as they don't get tagged by the Wikipedians as bandits. > > > > Concerning Simon's point about not liking Wikipedia concerning its > > 'coverage' of poets and poetry and preferring, instead, blogs and sites and > > such, I agree that Wikipedia is no substitute for all other sources of > > information. > > > > Centrality that connects to the periphery is also useful. Connect the > > central to the peripheral. How's that for an assignment? > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:09:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: **Advertise in The Portable Boog Reader 2** Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ----------------------- =20 Advertise in =20 Boog City 47: The Portable Boog Reader 2, An Anthology of New York City Poetry Edited by=20 Laura Elrick, Brenda Iijima, Mark Lamoureux, Christina Strong, Rodrigo Toscano, and me =20 We=B9re going to be distributing 2,500 copies of a 24-page issue of our tabloid-size paper Boog City--roughly the equivalent in size of a 96-page, 6=B2 x 9=B2 anthology-- throughout Manhattan's East Village, and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, Brooklyn. **Deadline** =20 --Thurs. Dec. 20-Ad copy to editor --Sat. Dec. 29-Issue to be distributed =20 Email to reserve ad space ASAP =20 Issue Will Feature Work From: Bruce Andrews Charles Bernstein Anselm Berrigan Charles Borkhuis Ana Bozicevic-Bowling Allison Cobb Julia Cohen Alan Davies M=F3nica de la Torre LaTasha N. Nevada Diggs Thom Donovan Robert Fitterman Corrine Fitzpatrick Greg Fuchs Drew Gardner David Micah Greenberg E. Tracy Grinnell Robert Hershon Paolo Javier Paul Foster Johnson Eliot Katz Erica Kaufman Amy King Rachel Levitsky Andrew Levy Dan Machlin Gillian McCain Carol Mirakove Nick Piombino Kristin Prevallet Arlo Quint Evelyn Reilly Kim Rosenfield Lauren Russell Nathaniel Siegel Joanna Sondheim Chris Stackhouse Stacy Szymaszek Lewis Warsh Karen Weiser Matvei Yankelevich Lila Zemborain And more =20 ----- =20 Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $60 to $30. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads.) =20 Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise you= r new albums, indie labels your new releases. =20 (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) =20 Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. =20 thanks, David =20 --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:08:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: human modeling talk at Society for Lit. Sci. and the Arts, Portland ME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Talk on human modeling at SLSA, apologies for lack of video examples, maybe not worth listening to, the work has been online though - Alan http://www.asondheim.org/modeling.mp3 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 01:05:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fluffy Singler Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I encourage that kind of use as well--as a "first stop" for basic facts and for finding links to other sources. I also tell my students that anything they find on Wikipedia is only a beginning and all facts need to be checked against other sources. And for that matter, I use that to discuss the way in which *all* sources should really be questioned, interrogated, and double-checked, from the most basic kind of "facts" to scholarly theories and assertions. Wikipedia actually has much more to offer than as a "reference" the way most undergraduates use it. I'm doing my dissertation on spoken word and I have used Wikipedia to look at how people with a vested interest in the various terms around spoken word, performance poetry and poetry slam have used Wikipedia as a forum to define and debate what the various definitions mean--and how they have attempted to use Wikipedia to reify those terms as well. All in all, Wikipedia can be used very productively in fact, not so much as a credible source in itself, but as a great way to engage students in conversations about the nature and process of knowledge production. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Daley [mailto:rcdaley@GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I avoid Wikipedia problems in classes by telling students that they're welcome to use Wikipedia to find links to original articles/sources, but that the Wiki text itself is off-limits. -ryan On Nov 2, 2007 5:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been removed. But > they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see what > someone could so easily add to an entry. > > Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. > > I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' research. I > do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add > information. > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Christina E Lovin > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > the truth and the way,'" she said. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ In-Reply-To: <711586.50550.qm@web52408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =96 =20= Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =20= > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:42:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: FOCUS ON PAVLOVA: PROPOSED PEACE TREATY FOR THE MIDDLE EAST In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ate: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:03:56 +0800 rom: Elizabeth Switaj ubject: Re: FOCUS ON PAVLOVA: PROPOSED PEACE TREATY FOR THE MIDDLE EAST AND=20 ATHETIC MESS WORLD ou know, I think it would be great to look at such pavlova as a model for oetry. I would like to write poems that so occupy the mind that one cannot hink of war while reading them and that give one enough information to rocess that the brain demands a nap. Elizabeth Kate Switaj ttp://www.elizabethkateswitaj.net Dear Elizabeth, Yes. Me too. How simple it truly is (is it?)(could it ever be?)(I truly hope= so): all the hateful images=20 we are filled with/ all the hateful rhetoric/ and yet I'm sure a slice of de= licious pavlova offered with=20 a sense of peace and "cease fire" (tea or coffee? that's up for grabs...)cou= ld unite us all (at least for a moment--and isn't life simply filled with moments?). And yes, a rest after= wards. A nap. Why not?=20 A break from all the fighting and the killing...What a great poetry this wou= ld be: our common humanity:=20 longing for something sweet and delicious and unifying... thank you for answering, Bobbi Lurie n 11/2/07, Bobbie Lurie wrote: Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:56 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: recipes I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) Anny, Gabrielle and everyone, What I omitted from this recipe was my true intention. Yes, it was meant for Catherine and her collection. But mostly it is my peace offering to the Middle East and the whole world looking about to be blown up. See, I figure, if ANYONEANYWHEREANYTIMEFOREVERMORE sits and eats this pavlova: THERE'S NO WAY ANYONE EATING THIS PAVLOVA IS GONNA THINK A BIT ABOUT WAR OR WHO SIDE THEY'RE ON AND AFTERWARDS HERE'S THE BEST PART: you need a nap--you've absolutely gotta sleep after eating this... Nowaynohow to blow up self and others in past-pavlova euphoria. So this is MY OFFERING FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. (i do pray it works...please "focus on pavlova"--world of ours pathetic mess) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:21:19 +1100 rom: Pam Brown ubject: We have a reviewer for John Newlove Thanks everyone, e have a reviewer for John Newlove's book for Jacket agazine. heerio from Pam _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ eb site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ ssociate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html ________________________________________________________________ =20 ational Bingo Night. Play along for the chance to win $10,000 every week.=20 ownload your gamecard now at Yahoo!7 TV. http://au.blogs.yahoo.com/national-= bingo-night/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 00:32:24 -0500 rom: mIEKAL aND ubject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous =20 rofs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative =20 oetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh =20 lood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment y JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a =20 eference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to =20 urn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them =20 ither to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit =20 n an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for =20 er class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, =20 Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill =20 his in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and =20 he variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily =20 oncedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of =20 ources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and =20 tudents' writing online proved better than the average undergrad =20 esearch paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried =20 rofessor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards =20 et by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy =20 nd neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world =20 f peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students =20 aught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college =20 tudents are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia =20 ditors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference =20 etween good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is =20 he truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:31:52 +0900 rom: Jesse Glass ubject: Latest Jacket: Jesse Glass poems and Picture Picture Picture Two poems--and--oh yes--a picture! (I'm in the midst of saying Yushya! ushya! while carrying a portable shrine for the general good luck of he community.) Generally lucky, Jess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 06:38:29 +0000 rom: Barry Schwabsky ubject: Re: RHETORIC Back in the day, one used to read Richard Lanham--not sure if that's still t= he=20 ase. "J. Michael Mollohan" wrote: Style: Strunk & White=20 period) hetoric: I used to have a good one my S.I. Hakawya, something like=20 Language and Thought in Action." Not sure of the exact title. ---- Original Message -----=20 rom: "Dubravka Djuric"=20 =20 o:=20 Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 8:05 AM ubject: RHETORIC EAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE QUEST=20 OR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:22:32 +0100 rom: Anny Ballardini ubject: Re: recipes Bobbie, I will be happy with both chocolate and raspberries, don't worry! nd before maybe that tasty brocomole that Mark Weiss carefully prepared, cheers, Anny On 11/1/07, Bobbie Lurie wrote: Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:56 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: recipes I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) ANNY, I SWEAR YOU WON'T TASTE THE EGGS (ONLY EGG WHITES REMEMBER/ WHAT TO DO WITH THOSE YOKES IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION BUT...) EGG WHITES QUICKLY CAMOFLAUGED WITH SUGAR, BALSALMIC VINEGAR AND CHOCOLATE AND GABRIELLE, I DON'T CARE IF YOU DON'T GET A SINGLE PRESENT THIS BIRTHDAY/ IT SIMPLY WON'T MATTER: THIS PAVLOVA WILL START YOUR YEAR OUT RIGHT--BEST WISHES--BOBBI On 10/30/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > oh god! i'm fainting... and my birthday's coming up... :-) > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe it > > all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a pavlova > > cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked > > for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a > > replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order > > (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good > > thing to include at poetry readings): > > > > CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA > > > > for the chocolate meringue base: > > 6 egg whites > > 1 cup granulated sugar > > 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted > > 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar > > 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped > > > > for the topping: > > 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream > > 1 very full pint raspberries > > 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated > > bittersweet chocolate > > > > > > Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper > > > > Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a spoonful > at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over the cocoa and > vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is > thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 > inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then > immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 hrs > When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides and > be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of > squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door > slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. > > When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. > Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the > meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate so > that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the raspberries' > luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly over te top, > letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. > > > > Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) > > Bobbi Lurie > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 01:44:21 -0700 rom: Alexander Jorgensen ubject: Looking for two poets: Christopher Barnes & Scott Abels If this is you (you) or, perchance, you know him, them, might you pass long, referably back channel, an e-mail -- or some form of unintrusive ontact.=20 Sometimes I wonder, feel disillusioned because am trying to figure out hat it means to be a poet, to whom am I 'speaking,' that what, going ack to baseball, and you'd know something about this, you, but that hat that makes a poet, his/her contribution worthy remembering (and for ome reason am fixated on Earle Combs and Harry Hooper, even Lefty omez, the Ted Williams-type there, but then they'd spit on the crowd). am trying to transcend these ordinary notions of relevance. Speaking ith others, some of you included, am left, still, thinking about Simic, bout Creeley, about all those meanings inscribed. Whew! I remember hatting with Harry Nudel, remember him, a bit scraggly and bitter, elf-serving, but strangely enough, he said of RC, to paraphrase, that e would be the one on knees talking up to the cleaning lady for hours, nd how those conversations made their way into process-oriented poems - his 'grace' of which I spoke (and grace was something I learnt living n a monastery, chatting with some of the most thoughtful individuals ver met, back then along the Austrian border, walking along hilltops to ncounter a hundred-year-old grave with a bunch of fresh cut flowers, nd in the wintertime, many of these monks having spent half-century mprisoned). I remember, too, chatting with some wonderfully talented olk in Kolkata, and we know how vital Kolkata is, don't we, all of us o entrenched in what is happening Stateside, who still believe omething about duty to culture-at-large.=20 nyway, I am still here. -=20 Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm --=20 ttp://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:19:22 -0400 rom: Gary Sullivan ubject: Reminder: FUNKHOUSER & GINS at Segue CHRIS FUNKHOUSER and MADELINE GINS 20 aturday November 3, 4:00-6:00 p.m. egue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 08 Bowery, one block above Houston 6 goes to support the readers 20 hris Funkhouser was awarded a Fulbright Scholarship in 2006 to lecture and= =3D conduct research in Malaysia, where his CD-ROM eBook Selections 2.0 was pr= =3D duced at Multimedia University. Prehistoric Digital Poetry: An Archaeology= =3D of Forms, 1959-1995, a history of pre-WWW computerized poetry, has just be= =3D n published by University of Alabama Press. 20 adeline Gins: B-b-b-b-b-orn and intends never to die. Three of her eleven=20= =3D ooks: What the President Will Say and Do!; Helen Keller or Arakawa; Making= =3D Dying Illegal (co-author Arakawa). Three of five Arakawa + Gins=3D92 built w= =3D rks: Bioscleave House=3D96East Hampton; Site of Reversible Destiny=3D96Yoro;= R=3D versible Destiny Lofts=3D96Mitaka. ________________________________________________________________ indows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =3D96 together at last.=20= =3DA0=3D et it now. ttp://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3D3DCL10062= =3D 971033=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:50:23 +0000 rom: Nicky Melville ubject: the ShellSuit Massacre hi, i'm currently working with another Scottish poet, Rodney Relax, as a 'band'= =3D performing poetry to experimental guitar based techno (poetechno?). =3D20 the text is a, mostly found, mosaic, taken from newspapers, election flyers= =3D and even, god forbid, T.S.Eliot, to reflect certain aspects of modern scot= =3D ish/british life.=3D20 does anyone know of anything similar being done? hope you can give it a listen. here's a link to our myspace, where there are four tracks: www.myspace.com/theshellsuitmassacremusic and here's a link to a short video from one of our performances: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3DKjCynEm-5yQ awe thu best,=3D20 ick-e melville ________________________________________________________________ eleb spotting =3D96 Play CelebMashup and win cool prizes ttps://www.celebmashup.com=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:59:52 -0700 rom: steve russell ubject: Deep image, part 11: question........ i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. LANGUAGE"= =20 ost. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had the most significant=20= =20 nfluence over my way of looking at poetry. But deep image poetry strike= s=20 e as a largely intuitive enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who= =20 ame into prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an=20 nfluence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite iconoclast, A R=20 MMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has never been lumped into an= y=20 articular kind of poetics. Has he influenced Language poets?=20 __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:11:58 -0700 rom: David Baratier ubject: antioch in ohio I heard Antioch College in Yellow Springs OH will close, anyone know anymore= =20 nfo about this? Greatly appreciated, thanks --d e well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 21 Empire Street ontpelier OH 43543 ttp://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at ttp://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=3Dsubscribe&id=3D1 __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:18:33 -0400 rom: James T Sherry ubject: Saturday Nov 3: Madeline Gins & Chris Funkhouser Reading VGhpcyBXZWVrIEF0IEJvd2VyeSBQb2V0cnkgQ2x1Yg0KDQogU0VHVUUgUkVBRElORyBTRVJJRVMg CBCT1dFUlkgUE9FVFJZIENMVUINCg0KU2F0dXJkYXlzOiA0OjAwIHAubS4gLSA2OjAwIHAubS4z DggQk9XRVJZLCBqdXN0IG5vcnRoIG9mIEhvdXN0b24qKioqJDYgDQphZG1pc3Npb24gaGVscHMg 3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgcmVhZGVycyoqKioNCg0KTk9WRU1CRVIgMyAgICAgICAgICAgICAgQ0hSSVMg lVOS0hPVVNFUiBhbmQgTUFERUxJTkUgR0lOUyBDaHJpcyANCkZ1bmtob3VzZXIgd2FzIGF3YXJk WQgYSBGdWxicmlnaHQgU2Nob2xhcnNoaXAgaW4gMjAwNiB0byBsZWN0dXJlIGFuZCANCmNvbmR1 3QgcmVzZWFyY2ggaW4gTWFsYXlzaWEsIHdoZXJlIGhpcyBDRC1ST00gZUJvb2sgU2VsZWN0aW9u yAyLjAgd2FzIA0KcHJvZHVjZWQgYXQgTXVsdGltZWRpYSBVbml2ZXJzaXR5LiBQcmVoaXN0b3Jp yBEaWdpdGFsIFBvZXRyeTogQW4gDQpBcmNoYWVvbG9neSBvZiBGb3JtcywgMTk1OS0xOTk1LCBh Ghpc3Rvcnkgb2YgcHJlLVdXVyBjb21wdXRlcml6ZWQgcG9ldHJ5LCANCmhhcyBqdXN0IGJlZW4g HVibGlzaGVkIGJ5IFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgb2YgQWxhYmFtYSBQcmVzcy4gTWFkZWxpbmUgR2luczog QpCLWItYi1iLWItb3JuIGFuZCBpbnRlbmRzIG5ldmVyIHRvIGRpZS4gIFRocmVlIG9mIGhlciBl GV2ZW4gYm9va3M6IFdoYXQgDQp0aGUgUHJlc2lkZW50IFdpbGwgU2F5IGFuZCBEbyE7IEhlbGVu EtlbGxlciBvciBBcmFrYXdhOyBNYWtpbmcgRHlpbmcgDQpJbGxlZ2FsIChjby1hdXRob3IgQXJh 2F3YSkuIFRocmVlIG9mIGZpdmUgQXJha2F3YSArIEdpbnPigJkgYnVpbHQgd29ya3M6IA0KQmlv 2NsZWF2ZSBIb3VzZeKAk0Vhc3QgSGFtcHRvbjsgU2l0ZSBvZiBSZXZlcnNpYmxlIERlc3Rpbnni JNZb3JvOyBSZXZlcnNpYmxlIA0KRGVzdGlueSBMb2Z0c+KAk01pdGFrYS4NCg0KDQoNCkphbWVz FQgU2hlcnJ5DQpTZWd1ZSBGb3VuZGF0aW9uDQooMjEyKSA0OTMtNTk4NCwgOC0zNDAtNTk4NA0K 2hlcnJ5akB1cy5pYm0uY29tDQoNCg=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:06:12 -0700 rom: David Chirot ubject: Petition for Academic Freedom//Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the=20 niversity From Jewish Voice for Peace "Muzzlewatch": Articles in Haaretz and The Guardian have been appearing in recent months on he "New McCarthyism" in the USA and the dangers it is posing for freedom of peech, thought, research and for peace Profs from top universities say no to false charges of anti-Semitism, ttacks on academic freedom ttp://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=3D284 The sender also included this note: please sign the attached petition -- ent via a FeedFlare link from a FeedBurner feed. ttp://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/publishers/feedflare ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:52:58 -0700 rom: amy king ubject: Weekend Warriors! New Work Up ... MIPOesias presents: =20 =20 ARI BANIAS =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9Cwho is ghost=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CFrom= Somewhere in the Middle=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CFind Love in=20 rooklyn Now!=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9C If Fear Were the Teacher=E2=80=9D =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/banias_ari.htm =20 ~~ =20 KATE BELES =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CFaulkner=E2=80=99s Caddy=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93=20= =E2=80=9CCount Me In=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CAn Apology for my Father= =E2=80=9D =E2=80=93=20 The Signified=E2=80=9D =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/beles_kate.htm =20 ~~ =20 ANA BOZICEVIC-BOWLING =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CVoicemail Anthem=E2=80=9D =E2=80= =93 =E2=80=9COranges=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CFall Hopscotch=E2=80=9D=20= =E2=80=93=20 The Moment of Love! (a Board Game)=E2=80=9D=20 =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/bowling-bozicevic_ana.htm =20 ~~ =20 DANIELLE PAFUNDA =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CThe Man in Your Life Will Exercise His=20= Fink =E2=80=98til it Wail=E2=80=9D =20 =E2=80=9CPunishment=E2=80=9D =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/pafunda_danielle.htm =20 ~~ =20 SAMPSON STARKWEATHER =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CA Review of a Review of Robert Olen= Butler=E2=80=99s=20 everance=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CPrussian Dance Steps are Making a Comeb= ack, Or a Review of a=20 eview of Zoli by Colum McCann=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CA Review of Ms. Pa= c-Man=E2=80=9D =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/starkweather_sampson.htm =20 ~~ =20 RECENTLY PUBLISHED: =20 Kazim Ali http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/ali_kazim.htm =20 Bill Cassidy http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/cassidy_bill.htm =20 Maxine Chernoff http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/chernoff_maxine.htm =20 Paul Hoover http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/hoover_paul.htm =20 Jim Knowles http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/knowles_jim_review1.htm =20 Danielle Pafunda http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/pafunda_danielle.htm =20 Stephanie Strickland http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/strickland_stephanie.htm =20 Diane Wald http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/wald_diane.htm =20 =20 Enjoy! =20 Amy King Editor MiPOesias=20 http://www.mipoesias.com/ =20 =20 __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:53:02 EDT rom: Ann Bogle ubject: Re: RHETORIC =20 n a message dated 11/1/2007 10:31:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 djms@EUNET.YU writes: DEAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE QUEST= =20 OR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE lan Ainsworth's anthology 75 Arguments (McGraw-Hill Co's). AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:25:05 -0400 rom: Jeff Davis ubject: Jessica Smith this Sunday on Wordplay This week on WPVM.com's Wordplay: Charlottesville (and, formerly, Buffalo) p= oet=20 essica Smith reads from her Organic Furniture Cellar and talks with host Jef= f=20 avis about her work, which has spatial as well as temporal dimensions. The=20 rogram broadcasts (and streams) at 4:00 PM on Sunday, and then is available=20 rom the station's archive page (http://wpvm.org/nav/archives/, just scroll d= own=20 or Wordplay) as either a stream or a podcast. eff Davis On the web at http://naturespoetry.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:33:50 -0700 rom: steve russell ubject: Re: Petition for Academic Freedom//Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the=20 niversity Included among vanishing cultures could be universities where supposedly=20 cademic freedom reigns.=20 David Chirot wrote: From Jewish Voice for Peace=20 Muzzlewatch": Articles in Haaretz and The Guardian have been appearing in recent months on he "New McCarthyism" in the USA and the dangers it is posing for freedom of peech, thought, research and for peace Profs from top universities say no to false charges of anti-Semitism, ttacks on academic freedom ttp://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=3D284 The sender also included this note: please sign the attached petition -- ent via a FeedFlare link from a FeedBurner feed. ttp://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/publishers/feedflare __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 rom: Christina E Lovin ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for i-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of oofus) out there. =20 I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I bsolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. =20 I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee ntry? =20 Christina -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of mIEKAL aND ent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous =20 rofs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative =20 oetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh =20 lood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment y JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a =20 eference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to =20 urn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them =20 ither to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit =20 n an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for =20 er class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, =20 Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill =20 his in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and =20 he variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily =20 oncedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of =20 ources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and =20 tudents' writing online proved better than the average undergrad =20 esearch paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried =20 rofessor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards =20 et by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy =20 nd neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world =20 f peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students =20 aught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college =20 tudents are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia =20 ditors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference =20 etween good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is =20 he truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:54:34 -0500 rom: Simon DeDeo ubject: wikipedia The coverage of poetry is pretty dire. The coverage of physics is amazing=20 - really well done, gone through with a fine toothed comb, and strictly=20 oliced for cranks. I think on balance "we poets critics &c." should steer clear of wikipedia.=20 he current network of blogging, websites, etc. is wonderfully=20 ecentralized and captures the sort of dynamism that is going on. People=20 ho want to learn about a new writer will get a great deal from jumping=20 nto someone's blog and following the linktrail. The problem with wikipedia is that it has such "google juice". Once an=20 rticle gets created on a subject, no matter how poor, it jumps to the top=20 f the google results. In a sense, the crappy article becomes the=20 gateway" for the curious, and I don't think we want that. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:03:52 -0500 rom: Simon DeDeo ubject: wikipedia (an example) http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dj+h+prynne&ie=3Dutf-8&oe=3Dutf-8&aq=3Dt&rls= =3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&client=3Dfirefox-a I think profs should ask -- do I want my class assignment to be the first=20 hing someone clicks on when they google Prynne? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._H._Prynne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:07:31 -0400 rom: Suzanne Burns ubject: Re: Ahadada Presents Kittihood By The Pussipo Collective, A New=20 -Chapbook How does one become a Pussipo collaborator? This is AWESOME. :-) On 9/18/07, Jesse Glass wrote: Catherine Daly and her Pussipo collaborators continue to deconstruct Hello Kitty in this wonderful, pink e-anthology. Cathy Eisenhower, Elisa Gabbert, Danielle Pafunda, and Kathrine Varnes all lend a paw and a claw, and it's perfectly free for the clicking at www.ahadadabooks.com. Enjoy! Jess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:37:24 -0000 rom: chax@THERIVER.COM ubject: Re: RHETORIC Six Lectures on Sound and Meaning might be one good place to start in the orks of Roman Jakobson, but I would think his work would be key to take nto account in any study since, of rhetoric. And Kenneth Burke, A hetoric of Motives, and other works, would be key, as well. charles > In a message dated 11/1/2007 10:31:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ddjms@EUNET.YU writes: DEAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE QUEST FOR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE Alan Ainsworth's anthology 75 Arguments (McGraw-Hill Co's). AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:41:40 -0400 rom: Ryan Daley ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I've assigned "wiki-subversion" assignments to students: alter the ext of a Wiki page and print it up. What's the point of this? After students see how easy it is to create a false or misleading ntry, they reconsider (or pause, at least) when taking information rom the Internet. -Ryan On Nov 2, 2007 4:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:46:57 -0000 rom: chax@THERIVER.COM ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Not knowing much about Li-Young Lee (I heard him read once, tried to read is work a couple of times, but it was not a kind of poetry in which I was nterested, at least at that time), but wanting to learn, I'd be nterested in your report of just what is wrong about the Wikipedia entry or him. I have found entries on poets I like a lot to be, well, not deep, but not naccurate. See entries on Hugo Ball, Susan Howe, Harryette Mullen, ackson Mac Low, and Alice Notley, among others. Still, I agree that these are not places I would advise students to go hen researching a topic. Particularly they are not places I would advise tudents to stop, i.e. the information found on Wikipedia is usually just he surface, even when it's not incorrect. charles > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:08:52 -0400 rom: Christina E Lovin ubject: Re: antioch in ohio I was in attendance at and honored to be the Judson Jerome Scholar at this ast summer's Antioch Writers' Workshop. The announcement had just been ade about the college closing. There were several announcements during the orkshop regarding the closing. This is from the website: Response to the Announcement of Antioch College's Closing The Antioch Writers' Workshop is deeply saddened by the announcement of the losing of Antioch College in July of 2008.=20 The Antioch Writers' Workshop will continue to present its annual summer riting conference in Yellow Springs, Ohio, this year and for many years to ome. Although the workshop originated at Antioch College in 1986, in 1993 a 01(C)(3) nonprofit entity was created, the Yellow Springs Writers' orkshop, and we have operated as an independent organization, separate from ntioch College, for the past 14 years.=20 The Antioch Writers' Workshop recognizes Antioch College's tradition of iterary excellence, with such notable writing alumni as Lawrence Block, alph Keyes, Sylvia Nasar, Louis Sachar, Dava Sobel, Mark Strand, and Rod erling. It is our fervent hope that Antioch College will be able to restore tself and reopen in the future.=20 The Antioch Writers' Workshop will continue to partner with Antioch niversity McGregor to provide continuing education credit opportunities for ur participants -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of David Baratier ent: Friday, November 02, 2007 12:12 AM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: antioch in ohio I heard Antioch College in Yellow Springs OH will close, anyone know anymore nfo about this? Greatly appreciated, thanks --d e well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 21 Empire Street ontpelier OH 43543 ttp://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at ttp://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=3Dsubscribe&id=3D1 __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:15:59 -0400 rom: Christina E Lovin ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been removed. But hey were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see what omeone could so easily add to an entry. Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. =20 I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' research. I o understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add nformation.=20 Christina -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of Christina E Lovin ent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for i-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of oofus) out there. =20 I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I bsolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. =20 I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee ntry? =20 Christina -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of mIEKAL aND ent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous =20 rofs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative =20 oetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh =20 lood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment y JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a =20 eference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to =20 urn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them =20 ither to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit =20 n an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for =20 er class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, =20 Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill =20 his in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and =20 he variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily =20 oncedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of =20 ources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and =20 tudents' writing online proved better than the average undergrad =20 esearch paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried =20 rofessor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards =20 et by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy =20 nd neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world =20 f peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students =20 aught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college =20 tudents are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia =20 ditors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference =20 etween good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is =20 he truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:25:59 -0400 rom: Ryan Daley ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I avoid Wikipedia problems in classes by telling students that they're elcome to use Wikipedia to find links to original articles/sources, ut that the Wiki text itself is off-limits. -ryan On Nov 2, 2007 5:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been removed. But they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see what someone could so easily add to an entry. Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' research. I do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add information. Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Christina E Lovin Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 22:38:58 +0000 rom: Barry Schwabsky ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Alternatively, one could workk to make the entires on poetry better. More fr= ee=20 ork, just what we need! But seriously, I love Wikipedia and I use it all the= =20 ime and find it very helpful. Example: Not long ago, I was writing a piece o= n a=20 ainter who'd painted some paintings of the Merritt Parkway. Well, you would=20= not=20 elieve the amount of info on the Merritt Parkway that's on Wikipedia. Not th= at=20 needed to cite any of it--just that I could feel confident that nothing I w= as=20 oing to say in passing about the Merritt Parkway would actually be wrong.=20 antastic. Why there isn't as much information on a poet as on a highway is w= hat=20 'd like to know. I've donated money to Wikipedia but if I had more time, I'd= =20 onate that too. chax@THERIVER.COM wrote: Not knowing much about Li-Young Lee (I heard him r= ead=20 nce, tried to read is work a couple of times, but it was not a kind of poetry in which I was nterested, at least at that time), but wanting to learn, I'd be nterested in your report of just what is wrong about the Wikipedia entry or him. I have found entries on poets I like a lot to be, well, not deep, but not naccurate. See entries on Hugo Ball, Susan Howe, Harryette Mullen, ackson Mac Low, and Alice Notley, among others. Still, I agree that these are not places I would advise students to go hen researching a topic. Particularly they are not places I would advise tudents to stop, i.e. the information found on Wikipedia is usually just he surface, even when it's not incorrect. charles > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:03:11 -0700 rom: Jim Andrews ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Personally, I find Wikipedia very useful. And I expect this is true for illions of people. Students have to know how to use it. Because they certainly are going to use t. Don't put your head in the sand and pretend otherwise. They have to learn how verify information on the Internet. And to be very areful about using information they haven't verified. We all have fallen for false information at one time or another on the nternet. Whenever I've been involved in a story that ended up in a newspaper, I've een amazed at how inaccurate the details were in the newspaper. Of course t isn't just the newspapers or the Internet where false information occurs requently. The kids need to learn to be critical, to become media literate. You don't et that way by being instructed to simply avoid things like Wikipedia. Deal ith it. I like the assignment to introduce falsities into Wikipedia. Good ne. As long as they don't get tagged by the Wikipedians as bandits. Concerning Simon's point about not liking Wikipedia concerning its coverage' of poets and poetry and preferring, instead, blogs and sites and uch, I agree that Wikipedia is no substitute for all other sources of nformation. Centrality that connects to the periphery is also useful. Connect the entral to the peripheral. How's that for an assignment? ja ttp://vispo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:42:16 -0700 rom: Dillon Westbrook ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I'll chime in and say what I said to my students on the wikipedia =20 ubject. Nature did a fairly exhaustive comparison of Wikipedia and =20 ncyclopedia Britannica (sorry, can't afford the nature subscription =20 o link to that study, but an intrepid person could probably dig it =20 p). The result was that the two were dead even, which says one thing =20 retty clearly- encyclopedias are what they are, curiosity saters and =20 ccasional beacons to better sources, but not research material. =20 ersonally, I commend wikipedia for how good it is on current events, =20 ts "news worthy" entries on recent events are occasionally better =20 han AP. I've found decent stuff on poets like Robert Duncan or H.D., scant =20 ittle on some more recent (curious to go check out the entry on =20 usan Howe though). Even more offensive to me were entries on jazz =20 usicians, particularly drummers- there was a large scrolling page =20 or Louis Bellson and barely a paragraph for Kenny Clarke, the latter =20 eing, with no disrespect to Louis, appreciably more important to the =20 istory of the music and his instrument. The expression of race bias =20 as fairly obvious to me. Might go back and check if the phenomenon =20 epeats itself in literature (how does Langston Hughes' page compare =20 o Carl Sandburg's?) Dillon On Nov 2, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been =20 removed. But they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see =20 what someone could so easily add to an entry. Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' =20 research. I do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add information. Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group =20 [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Christina E Lovin Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi =20 (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group =20 [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:21:24 -0700 rom: Jason Quackenbush ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I couldn't agree more. My Mom is a Library Media Specialist who teaches K-12= ,=20 nd one of the things she's always doing when teaching kids research skills i= s=20 xplaining to them the importance of using the internet properly. Wikipedia i= s a=20 ood example of that. She actually did one lesson last year where she and I=20 onspired to a couple of changes to the wikipedia article about her school=20 istrict right before the class she was teaching looked at it. the informatio= n=20 as wildly incorrect and the object of the lesson was to try to figure out ho= w=20 o find out the correct information. lots of fun was had all around. n Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Jim Andrews wrote: > Personally, I find Wikipedia very useful. And I expect this is true for millions of people. Students have to know how to use it. Because they certainly are going to us= e it. Don't put your head in the sand and pretend otherwise. They have to learn how verify information on the Internet. And to be very careful about using information they haven't verified. We all have fallen for false information at one time or another on the Internet. Whenever I've been involved in a story that ended up in a newspaper, I've been amazed at how inaccurate the details were in the newspaper. Of course it isn't just the newspapers or the Internet where false information occurs frequently. The kids need to learn to be critical, to become media literate. You don't get that way by being instructed to simply avoid things like Wikipedia. Dea= l with it. I like the assignment to introduce falsities into Wikipedia. Good one. As long as they don't get tagged by the Wikipedians as bandits. Concerning Simon's point about not liking Wikipedia concerning its 'coverage' of poets and poetry and preferring, instead, blogs and sites and such, I agree that Wikipedia is no substitute for all other sources of information. Centrality that connects to the periphery is also useful. Connect the central to the peripheral. How's that for an assignment? ja http://vispo.com ------------------------------ End of POETICS Digest - 1 Nov 2007 to 2 Nov 2007 (#2007-306) *********************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http= ://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: RECIPES In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear Anny, Thanks for considering the pavlova. But I truly agree. Mark Weiss has a fantastic recipe as well. I read his aft= er and thought: "Hey, Mark's got it right. That sounds pretty good..." I think I'll try Mark's too. I send my best to you-- Bobbi P.S. I forgot to mention: I make fantastic coffee... Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:22:32 +0100 rom: Anny Ballardini ubject: Re: recipes Bobbie, I will be happy with both chocolate and raspberries, don't worry! nd before maybe that tasty brocomole that Mark Weiss carefully prepared, cheers, Anny On 11/1/07, Bobbie Lurie wrote: Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:15:56 +0100 From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: recipes I'm lucky, I don't like eggs, :-) ANNY, I SWEAR YOU WON'T TASTE THE EGGS (ONLY EGG WHITES REMEMBER/ WHAT TO DO WITH THOSE YOKES IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION BUT...) EGG WHITES QUICKLY CAMOFLAUGED WITH SUGAR, BALSALMIC VINEGAR AND CHOCOLATE AND GABRIELLE, I DON'T CARE IF YOU DON'T GET A SINGLE PRESENT THIS BIRTHDAY/ IT SIMPLY WON'T MATTER: THIS PAVLOVA WILL START YOUR YEAR OUT RIGHT--BEST WISHES--BOBBI On 10/30/07, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > oh god! i'm fainting... and my birthday's coming up... :-) > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > Catherine, Here is my recipe for "Chocolate Raspberry Pavlova"--I owe it > > all to Nigella Lawson after 3 years in England, trying to make a pavlova > > cause pavlova's are big there (but this is the only one that's worked > > for me--and it's delicious!). I recommend this to EVERYONE as a > > replacement birthday cake or any other time a celebration is in order > > (which is always, of course, so please don't hesitate)(probably a good > > thing to include at poetry readings): > > > > CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY PAVLOVA > > > > for the chocolate meringue base: > > 6 egg whites > > 1 cup granulated sugar > > 3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder, sifted > > 1 teaspoon balsamic or red wine vinegar > > 2 ounces bittersweet chocolate, finely chopped > > > > for the topping: > > 2 1/4/ cups heavy cream > > 1 very full pint raspberries > > 2-3 tablespoons coarsely grated > > bittersweet chocolate > > > > > > Preheat the oven to 350/ line baking sheet with parchment paper > > > > Beat egg whites until satiny peaks form/ then beat in sugar/ a spoonful > at a time until the meringue is stiff and shiny. Sprinkle over the cocoa and > vinegar and the chopped chocolate. Gently fold verything until cocoa is > thoroughly mixed in. Mound onto a baking sheet in fat circle approx. 9 > inches in diameter, smoothing the sides and top. Place in the over, then > immediately turn the temperature down to 300 F/ cook for approx 1-1/4 hrs > When it's ready it should look crisp around the edges and on the sides and > be dry on top/ when you prod the center you should feel the promise of > squidginess beneath your fingers. Turn off the oven and open the door > slightly, and let the chocolate meringue disk cool and completely. > > When you're ready to serve, invert onto a big, flat-bottomed plate. > Whisk the cream till thick but still soft and pile it on top of the > meringue, then scatter over the raspberies. Coarsely grate the chocolate so > that you get curls rather than rubble, as you don't want the raspberries' > luscious color and form to be obscured, and sprinke haphazardly over te top, > letting some fall, as it will, on the plate's rim. > > > > Note: always eat while wearing party hats (my suggestion) > > Bobbi Lurie > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 01:44:21 -0700 rom: Alexander Jorgensen ubject: Looking for two poets: Christopher Barnes & Scott Abels If this is you (you) or, perchance, you know him, them, might you pass long, referably back channel, an e-mail -- or some form of unintrusive ontact.=20 Sometimes I wonder, feel disillusioned because am trying to figure out hat it means to be a poet, to whom am I 'speaking,' that what, going ack to baseball, and you'd know something about this, you, but that hat that makes a poet, his/her contribution worthy remembering (and for ome reason am fixated on Earle Combs and Harry Hooper, even Lefty omez, the Ted Williams-type there, but then they'd spit on the crowd). am trying to transcend these ordinary notions of relevance. Speaking ith others, some of you included, am left, still, thinking about Simic, bout Creeley, about all those meanings inscribed. Whew! I remember hatting with Harry Nudel, remember him, a bit scraggly and bitter, elf-serving, but strangely enough, he said of RC, to paraphrase, that e would be the one on knees talking up to the cleaning lady for hours, nd how those conversations made their way into process-oriented poems - his 'grace' of which I spoke (and grace was something I learnt living n a monastery, chatting with some of the most thoughtful individuals ver met, back then along the Austrian border, walking along hilltops to ncounter a hundred-year-old grave with a bunch of fresh cut flowers, nd in the wintertime, many of these monks having spent half-century mprisoned). I remember, too, chatting with some wonderfully talented olk in Kolkata, and we know how vital Kolkata is, don't we, all of us o entrenched in what is happening Stateside, who still believe omething about duty to culture-at-large.=20 nyway, I am still here. -=20 Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm --=20 ttp://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:19:22 -0400 rom: Gary Sullivan ubject: Reminder: FUNKHOUSER & GINS at Segue CHRIS FUNKHOUSER and MADELINE GINS 20 aturday November 3, 4:00-6:00 p.m. egue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 08 Bowery, one block above Houston 6 goes to support the readers 20 hris Funkhouser was awarded a Fulbright Scholarship in 2006 to lecture and= =3D conduct research in Malaysia, where his CD-ROM eBook Selections 2.0 was pr= =3D duced at Multimedia University. Prehistoric Digital Poetry: An Archaeology= =3D of Forms, 1959-1995, a history of pre-WWW computerized poetry, has just be= =3D n published by University of Alabama Press. 20 adeline Gins: B-b-b-b-b-orn and intends never to die. Three of her eleven=20= =3D ooks: What the President Will Say and Do!; Helen Keller or Arakawa; Making= =3D Dying Illegal (co-author Arakawa). Three of five Arakawa + Gins=3D92 built w= =3D rks: Bioscleave House=3D96East Hampton; Site of Reversible Destiny=3D96Yoro;= R=3D versible Destiny Lofts=3D96Mitaka. ________________________________________________________________ indows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =3D96 together at last.=20= =3DA0=3D et it now. ttp://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3D3DCL10062= =3D 971033=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:50:23 +0000 rom: Nicky Melville ubject: the ShellSuit Massacre hi, i'm currently working with another Scottish poet, Rodney Relax, as a 'band'= =3D performing poetry to experimental guitar based techno (poetechno?). =3D20 the text is a, mostly found, mosaic, taken from newspapers, election flyers= =3D and even, god forbid, T.S.Eliot, to reflect certain aspects of modern scot= =3D ish/british life.=3D20 does anyone know of anything similar being done? hope you can give it a listen. here's a link to our myspace, where there are four tracks: www.myspace.com/theshellsuitmassacremusic and here's a link to a short video from one of our performances: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3DKjCynEm-5yQ awe thu best,=3D20 ick-e melville ________________________________________________________________ eleb spotting =3D96 Play CelebMashup and win cool prizes ttps://www.celebmashup.com=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:59:52 -0700 rom: steve russell ubject: Deep image, part 11: question........ i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. LANGUAGE"= =20 ost. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had the most significant=20= =20 nfluence over my way of looking at poetry. But deep image poetry strike= s=20 e as a largely intuitive enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who= =20 ame into prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an=20 nfluence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite iconoclast, A R=20 MMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has never been lumped into an= y=20 articular kind of poetics. Has he influenced Language poets?=20 __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:11:58 -0700 rom: David Baratier ubject: antioch in ohio I heard Antioch College in Yellow Springs OH will close, anyone know anymore= =20 nfo about this? Greatly appreciated, thanks --d e well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 21 Empire Street ontpelier OH 43543 ttp://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at ttp://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=3Dsubscribe&id=3D1 __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:18:33 -0400 rom: James T Sherry ubject: Saturday Nov 3: Madeline Gins & Chris Funkhouser Reading VGhpcyBXZWVrIEF0IEJvd2VyeSBQb2V0cnkgQ2x1Yg0KDQogU0VHVUUgUkVBRElORyBTRVJJRVMg CBCT1dFUlkgUE9FVFJZIENMVUINCg0KU2F0dXJkYXlzOiA0OjAwIHAubS4gLSA2OjAwIHAubS4z DggQk9XRVJZLCBqdXN0IG5vcnRoIG9mIEhvdXN0b24qKioqJDYgDQphZG1pc3Npb24gaGVscHMg 3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgcmVhZGVycyoqKioNCg0KTk9WRU1CRVIgMyAgICAgICAgICAgICAgQ0hSSVMg lVOS0hPVVNFUiBhbmQgTUFERUxJTkUgR0lOUyBDaHJpcyANCkZ1bmtob3VzZXIgd2FzIGF3YXJk WQgYSBGdWxicmlnaHQgU2Nob2xhcnNoaXAgaW4gMjAwNiB0byBsZWN0dXJlIGFuZCANCmNvbmR1 3QgcmVzZWFyY2ggaW4gTWFsYXlzaWEsIHdoZXJlIGhpcyBDRC1ST00gZUJvb2sgU2VsZWN0aW9u yAyLjAgd2FzIA0KcHJvZHVjZWQgYXQgTXVsdGltZWRpYSBVbml2ZXJzaXR5LiBQcmVoaXN0b3Jp yBEaWdpdGFsIFBvZXRyeTogQW4gDQpBcmNoYWVvbG9neSBvZiBGb3JtcywgMTk1OS0xOTk1LCBh Ghpc3Rvcnkgb2YgcHJlLVdXVyBjb21wdXRlcml6ZWQgcG9ldHJ5LCANCmhhcyBqdXN0IGJlZW4g HVibGlzaGVkIGJ5IFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgb2YgQWxhYmFtYSBQcmVzcy4gTWFkZWxpbmUgR2luczog QpCLWItYi1iLWItb3JuIGFuZCBpbnRlbmRzIG5ldmVyIHRvIGRpZS4gIFRocmVlIG9mIGhlciBl GV2ZW4gYm9va3M6IFdoYXQgDQp0aGUgUHJlc2lkZW50IFdpbGwgU2F5IGFuZCBEbyE7IEhlbGVu EtlbGxlciBvciBBcmFrYXdhOyBNYWtpbmcgRHlpbmcgDQpJbGxlZ2FsIChjby1hdXRob3IgQXJh 2F3YSkuIFRocmVlIG9mIGZpdmUgQXJha2F3YSArIEdpbnPigJkgYnVpbHQgd29ya3M6IA0KQmlv 2NsZWF2ZSBIb3VzZeKAk0Vhc3QgSGFtcHRvbjsgU2l0ZSBvZiBSZXZlcnNpYmxlIERlc3Rpbnni JNZb3JvOyBSZXZlcnNpYmxlIA0KRGVzdGlueSBMb2Z0c+KAk01pdGFrYS4NCg0KDQoNCkphbWVz FQgU2hlcnJ5DQpTZWd1ZSBGb3VuZGF0aW9uDQooMjEyKSA0OTMtNTk4NCwgOC0zNDAtNTk4NA0K 2hlcnJ5akB1cy5pYm0uY29tDQoNCg=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:06:12 -0700 rom: David Chirot ubject: Petition for Academic Freedom//Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the=20 niversity From Jewish Voice for Peace "Muzzlewatch": Articles in Haaretz and The Guardian have been appearing in recent months on he "New McCarthyism" in the USA and the dangers it is posing for freedom of peech, thought, research and for peace Profs from top universities say no to false charges of anti-Semitism, ttacks on academic freedom ttp://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=3D284 The sender also included this note: please sign the attached petition -- ent via a FeedFlare link from a FeedBurner feed. ttp://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/publishers/feedflare ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:52:58 -0700 rom: amy king ubject: Weekend Warriors! New Work Up ... MIPOesias presents: =20 =20 ARI BANIAS =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9Cwho is ghost=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CFrom= Somewhere in the Middle=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CFind Love in=20 rooklyn Now!=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9C If Fear Were the Teacher=E2=80=9D =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/banias_ari.htm =20 ~~ =20 KATE BELES =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CFaulkner=E2=80=99s Caddy=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93=20= =E2=80=9CCount Me In=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CAn Apology for my Father= =E2=80=9D =E2=80=93=20 The Signified=E2=80=9D =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/beles_kate.htm =20 ~~ =20 ANA BOZICEVIC-BOWLING =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CVoicemail Anthem=E2=80=9D =E2=80= =93 =E2=80=9COranges=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CFall Hopscotch=E2=80=9D=20= =E2=80=93=20 The Moment of Love! (a Board Game)=E2=80=9D=20 =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/bowling-bozicevic_ana.htm =20 ~~ =20 DANIELLE PAFUNDA =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CThe Man in Your Life Will Exercise His=20= Fink =E2=80=98til it Wail=E2=80=9D =20 =E2=80=9CPunishment=E2=80=9D =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/pafunda_danielle.htm =20 ~~ =20 SAMPSON STARKWEATHER =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CA Review of a Review of Robert Olen= Butler=E2=80=99s=20 everance=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CPrussian Dance Steps are Making a Comeb= ack, Or a Review of a=20 eview of Zoli by Colum McCann=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CA Review of Ms. Pa= c-Man=E2=80=9D =20 http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/starkweather_sampson.htm =20 ~~ =20 RECENTLY PUBLISHED: =20 Kazim Ali http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/ali_kazim.htm =20 Bill Cassidy http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/cassidy_bill.htm =20 Maxine Chernoff http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/chernoff_maxine.htm =20 Paul Hoover http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/hoover_paul.htm =20 Jim Knowles http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/knowles_jim_review1.htm =20 Danielle Pafunda http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/pafunda_danielle.htm =20 Stephanie Strickland http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/strickland_stephanie.htm =20 Diane Wald http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/wald_diane.htm =20 =20 Enjoy! =20 Amy King Editor MiPOesias=20 http://www.mipoesias.com/ =20 =20 __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:53:02 EDT rom: Ann Bogle ubject: Re: RHETORIC =20 n a message dated 11/1/2007 10:31:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 djms@EUNET.YU writes: DEAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE QUEST= =20 OR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE lan Ainsworth's anthology 75 Arguments (McGraw-Hill Co's). AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:25:05 -0400 rom: Jeff Davis ubject: Jessica Smith this Sunday on Wordplay This week on WPVM.com's Wordplay: Charlottesville (and, formerly, Buffalo) p= oet=20 essica Smith reads from her Organic Furniture Cellar and talks with host Jef= f=20 avis about her work, which has spatial as well as temporal dimensions. The=20 rogram broadcasts (and streams) at 4:00 PM on Sunday, and then is available=20 rom the station's archive page (http://wpvm.org/nav/archives/, just scroll d= own=20 or Wordplay) as either a stream or a podcast. eff Davis On the web at http://naturespoetry.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:33:50 -0700 rom: steve russell ubject: Re: Petition for Academic Freedom//Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the=20 niversity Included among vanishing cultures could be universities where supposedly=20 cademic freedom reigns.=20 David Chirot wrote: From Jewish Voice for Peace=20 Muzzlewatch": Articles in Haaretz and The Guardian have been appearing in recent months on he "New McCarthyism" in the USA and the dangers it is posing for freedom of peech, thought, research and for peace Profs from top universities say no to false charges of anti-Semitism, ttacks on academic freedom ttp://www.muzzlewatch.com/?p=3D284 The sender also included this note: please sign the attached petition -- ent via a FeedFlare link from a FeedBurner feed. ttp://www.feedburner.com/fb/a/publishers/feedflare __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 rom: Christina E Lovin ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for i-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of oofus) out there. =20 I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I bsolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. =20 I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee ntry? =20 Christina -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of mIEKAL aND ent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous =20 rofs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative =20 oetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh =20 lood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment y JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a =20 eference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to =20 urn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them =20 ither to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit =20 n an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for =20 er class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, =20 Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill =20 his in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and =20 he variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily =20 oncedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of =20 ources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and =20 tudents' writing online proved better than the average undergrad =20 esearch paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried =20 rofessor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards =20 et by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy =20 nd neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world =20 f peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students =20 aught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college =20 tudents are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia =20 ditors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference =20 etween good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is =20 he truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:54:34 -0500 rom: Simon DeDeo ubject: wikipedia The coverage of poetry is pretty dire. The coverage of physics is amazing=20 - really well done, gone through with a fine toothed comb, and strictly=20 oliced for cranks. I think on balance "we poets critics &c." should steer clear of wikipedia.=20 he current network of blogging, websites, etc. is wonderfully=20 ecentralized and captures the sort of dynamism that is going on. People=20 ho want to learn about a new writer will get a great deal from jumping=20 nto someone's blog and following the linktrail. The problem with wikipedia is that it has such "google juice". Once an=20 rticle gets created on a subject, no matter how poor, it jumps to the top=20 f the google results. In a sense, the crappy article becomes the=20 gateway" for the curious, and I don't think we want that. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:03:52 -0500 rom: Simon DeDeo ubject: wikipedia (an example) http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dj+h+prynne&ie=3Dutf-8&oe=3Dutf-8&aq=3Dt&rls= =3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&client=3Dfirefox-a I think profs should ask -- do I want my class assignment to be the first=20 hing someone clicks on when they google Prynne? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._H._Prynne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:07:31 -0400 rom: Suzanne Burns ubject: Re: Ahadada Presents Kittihood By The Pussipo Collective, A New=20 -Chapbook How does one become a Pussipo collaborator? This is AWESOME. :-) On 9/18/07, Jesse Glass wrote: Catherine Daly and her Pussipo collaborators continue to deconstruct Hello Kitty in this wonderful, pink e-anthology. Cathy Eisenhower, Elisa Gabbert, Danielle Pafunda, and Kathrine Varnes all lend a paw and a claw, and it's perfectly free for the clicking at www.ahadadabooks.com. Enjoy! Jess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:37:24 -0000 rom: chax@THERIVER.COM ubject: Re: RHETORIC Six Lectures on Sound and Meaning might be one good place to start in the orks of Roman Jakobson, but I would think his work would be key to take nto account in any study since, of rhetoric. And Kenneth Burke, A hetoric of Motives, and other works, would be key, as well. charles > In a message dated 11/1/2007 10:31:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ddjms@EUNET.YU writes: DEAR LIST MEMBERS, COULD ONY OF YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD BOOK ON RHETORIC AND STYLISTIC?. THE ONLY ONE I HAVE IS WAYNE C. BOOTH - tHE RHETORIC OF RETORIC - THE QUEST FOR EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION THANKS IN ADVANCE Alan Ainsworth's anthology 75 Arguments (McGraw-Hill Co's). AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:41:40 -0400 rom: Ryan Daley ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I've assigned "wiki-subversion" assignments to students: alter the ext of a Wiki page and print it up. What's the point of this? After students see how easy it is to create a false or misleading ntry, they reconsider (or pause, at least) when taking information rom the Internet. -Ryan On Nov 2, 2007 4:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 21:46:57 -0000 rom: chax@THERIVER.COM ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Not knowing much about Li-Young Lee (I heard him read once, tried to read is work a couple of times, but it was not a kind of poetry in which I was nterested, at least at that time), but wanting to learn, I'd be nterested in your report of just what is wrong about the Wikipedia entry or him. I have found entries on poets I like a lot to be, well, not deep, but not naccurate. See entries on Hugo Ball, Susan Howe, Harryette Mullen, ackson Mac Low, and Alice Notley, among others. Still, I agree that these are not places I would advise students to go hen researching a topic. Particularly they are not places I would advise tudents to stop, i.e. the information found on Wikipedia is usually just he surface, even when it's not incorrect. charles > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:08:52 -0400 rom: Christina E Lovin ubject: Re: antioch in ohio I was in attendance at and honored to be the Judson Jerome Scholar at this ast summer's Antioch Writers' Workshop. The announcement had just been ade about the college closing. There were several announcements during the orkshop regarding the closing. This is from the website: Response to the Announcement of Antioch College's Closing The Antioch Writers' Workshop is deeply saddened by the announcement of the losing of Antioch College in July of 2008.=20 The Antioch Writers' Workshop will continue to present its annual summer riting conference in Yellow Springs, Ohio, this year and for many years to ome. Although the workshop originated at Antioch College in 1986, in 1993 a 01(C)(3) nonprofit entity was created, the Yellow Springs Writers' orkshop, and we have operated as an independent organization, separate from ntioch College, for the past 14 years.=20 The Antioch Writers' Workshop recognizes Antioch College's tradition of iterary excellence, with such notable writing alumni as Lawrence Block, alph Keyes, Sylvia Nasar, Louis Sachar, Dava Sobel, Mark Strand, and Rod erling. It is our fervent hope that Antioch College will be able to restore tself and reopen in the future.=20 The Antioch Writers' Workshop will continue to partner with Antioch niversity McGregor to provide continuing education credit opportunities for ur participants -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of David Baratier ent: Friday, November 02, 2007 12:12 AM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: antioch in ohio I heard Antioch College in Yellow Springs OH will close, anyone know anymore nfo about this? Greatly appreciated, thanks --d e well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 21 Empire Street ontpelier OH 43543 ttp://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at ttp://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=3Dsubscribe&id=3D1 __________________________________________________ o You Yahoo!? ired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 ttp://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:15:59 -0400 rom: Christina E Lovin ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been removed. But hey were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see what omeone could so easily add to an entry. Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. =20 I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' research. I o understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add nformation.=20 Christina -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of Christina E Lovin ent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for i-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of oofus) out there. =20 I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I bsolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. =20 I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee ntry? =20 Christina -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of mIEKAL aND ent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous =20 rofs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative =20 oetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh =20 lood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment y JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a =20 eference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to =20 urn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them =20 ither to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit =20 n an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for =20 er class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, =20 Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill =20 his in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and =20 he variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily =20 oncedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of =20 ources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and =20 tudents' writing online proved better than the average undergrad =20 esearch paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried =20 rofessor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards =20 et by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy =20 nd neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world =20 f peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students =20 aught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college =20 tudents are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia =20 ditors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference =20 etween good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is =20 he truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:25:59 -0400 rom: Ryan Daley ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I avoid Wikipedia problems in classes by telling students that they're elcome to use Wikipedia to find links to original articles/sources, ut that the Wiki text itself is off-limits. -ryan On Nov 2, 2007 5:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been removed. But they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see what someone could so easily add to an entry. Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' research. I do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add information. Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Christina E Lovin Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 22:38:58 +0000 rom: Barry Schwabsky ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Alternatively, one could workk to make the entires on poetry better. More fr= ee=20 ork, just what we need! But seriously, I love Wikipedia and I use it all the= =20 ime and find it very helpful. Example: Not long ago, I was writing a piece o= n a=20 ainter who'd painted some paintings of the Merritt Parkway. Well, you would=20= not=20 elieve the amount of info on the Merritt Parkway that's on Wikipedia. Not th= at=20 needed to cite any of it--just that I could feel confident that nothing I w= as=20 oing to say in passing about the Merritt Parkway would actually be wrong.=20 antastic. Why there isn't as much information on a poet as on a highway is w= hat=20 'd like to know. I've donated money to Wikipedia but if I had more time, I'd= =20 onate that too. chax@THERIVER.COM wrote: Not knowing much about Li-Young Lee (I heard him r= ead=20 nce, tried to read is work a couple of times, but it was not a kind of poetry in which I was nterested, at least at that time), but wanting to learn, I'd be nterested in your report of just what is wrong about the Wikipedia entry or him. I have found entries on poets I like a lot to be, well, not deep, but not naccurate. See entries on Hugo Ball, Susan Howe, Harryette Mullen, ackson Mac Low, and Alice Notley, among others. Still, I agree that these are not places I would advise students to go hen researching a topic. Particularly they are not places I would advise tudents to stop, i.e. the information found on Wikipedia is usually just he surface, even when it's not incorrect. charles > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:03:11 -0700 rom: Jim Andrews ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Personally, I find Wikipedia very useful. And I expect this is true for illions of people. Students have to know how to use it. Because they certainly are going to use t. Don't put your head in the sand and pretend otherwise. They have to learn how verify information on the Internet. And to be very areful about using information they haven't verified. We all have fallen for false information at one time or another on the nternet. Whenever I've been involved in a story that ended up in a newspaper, I've een amazed at how inaccurate the details were in the newspaper. Of course t isn't just the newspapers or the Internet where false information occurs requently. The kids need to learn to be critical, to become media literate. You don't et that way by being instructed to simply avoid things like Wikipedia. Deal ith it. I like the assignment to introduce falsities into Wikipedia. Good ne. As long as they don't get tagged by the Wikipedians as bandits. Concerning Simon's point about not liking Wikipedia concerning its coverage' of poets and poetry and preferring, instead, blogs and sites and uch, I agree that Wikipedia is no substitute for all other sources of nformation. Centrality that connects to the periphery is also useful. Connect the entral to the peripheral. How's that for an assignment? ja ttp://vispo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:42:16 -0700 rom: Dillon Westbrook ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I'll chime in and say what I said to my students on the wikipedia =20 ubject. Nature did a fairly exhaustive comparison of Wikipedia and =20 ncyclopedia Britannica (sorry, can't afford the nature subscription =20 o link to that study, but an intrepid person could probably dig it =20 p). The result was that the two were dead even, which says one thing =20 retty clearly- encyclopedias are what they are, curiosity saters and =20 ccasional beacons to better sources, but not research material. =20 ersonally, I commend wikipedia for how good it is on current events, =20 ts "news worthy" entries on recent events are occasionally better =20 han AP. I've found decent stuff on poets like Robert Duncan or H.D., scant =20 ittle on some more recent (curious to go check out the entry on =20 usan Howe though). Even more offensive to me were entries on jazz =20 usicians, particularly drummers- there was a large scrolling page =20 or Louis Bellson and barely a paragraph for Kenny Clarke, the latter =20 eing, with no disrespect to Louis, appreciably more important to the =20 istory of the music and his instrument. The expression of race bias =20 as fairly obvious to me. Might go back and check if the phenomenon =20 epeats itself in literature (how does Langston Hughes' page compare =20 o Carl Sandburg's?) Dillon On Nov 2, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been =20 removed. But they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see =20 what someone could so easily add to an entry. Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' =20 research. I do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add information. Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group =20 [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Christina E Lovin Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi =20 (plural of doofus) out there. I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee entry? Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group =20 [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh blood. ~mIEKAL) Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a reference for term papers. Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit on an existing one. The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for her class. "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill this in?" Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of sources students cite has deteriorated. For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad research paper. Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy and neutral tone, Groom said. The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world of peer-reviewed research. Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference between good secondary research and the average college paper. "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:21:24 -0700 rom: Jason Quackenbush ubject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment I couldn't agree more. My Mom is a Library Media Specialist who teaches K-12= ,=20 nd one of the things she's always doing when teaching kids research skills i= s=20 xplaining to them the importance of using the internet properly. Wikipedia i= s a=20 ood example of that. She actually did one lesson last year where she and I=20 onspired to a couple of changes to the wikipedia article about her school=20 istrict right before the class she was teaching looked at it. the informatio= n=20 as wildly incorrect and the object of the lesson was to try to figure out ho= w=20 o find out the correct information. lots of fun was had all around. n Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Jim Andrews wrote: > Personally, I find Wikipedia very useful. And I expect this is true for millions of people. Students have to know how to use it. Because they certainly are going to us= e it. Don't put your head in the sand and pretend otherwise. They have to learn how verify information on the Internet. And to be very careful about using information they haven't verified. We all have fallen for false information at one time or another on the Internet. Whenever I've been involved in a story that ended up in a newspaper, I've been amazed at how inaccurate the details were in the newspaper. Of course it isn't just the newspapers or the Internet where false information occurs frequently. The kids need to learn to be critical, to become media literate. You don't get that way by being instructed to simply avoid things like Wikipedia. Dea= l with it. I like the assignment to introduce falsities into Wikipedia. Good one. As long as they don't get tagged by the Wikipedians as bandits. Concerning Simon's point about not liking Wikipedia concerning its 'coverage' of poets and poetry and preferring, instead, blogs and sites and such, I agree that Wikipedia is no substitute for all other sources of information. Centrality that connects to the periphery is also useful. Connect the central to the peripheral. How's that for an assignment? ja http://vispo.com ------------------------------ End of POETICS Digest - 1 Nov 2007 to 2 Nov 2007 (#2007-306) *********************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http= ://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 15:05:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <8D06BEF6-BE77-45C2-962B-ABE70E5F134B@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So Louis Bellson has one big fan who takes the trouble to contribute to Wikipedia and Klook hasn't found his yet so you attribute it to racism. If you have some knowledge of the subject, why don't you take the time to expand the entry? Or at least contribute to the discussion behind the Clarke article? Dillon Westbrook wrote: I'll chime in and say what I said to my students on the wikipedia subject. Nature did a fairly exhaustive comparison of Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica (sorry, can't afford the nature subscription to link to that study, but an intrepid person could probably dig it up). The result was that the two were dead even, which says one thing pretty clearly- encyclopedias are what they are, curiosity saters and occasional beacons to better sources, but not research material. Personally, I commend wikipedia for how good it is on current events, its "news worthy" entries on recent events are occasionally better than AP. I've found decent stuff on poets like Robert Duncan or H.D., scant little on some more recent (curious to go check out the entry on Susan Howe though). Even more offensive to me were entries on jazz musicians, particularly drummers- there was a large scrolling page for Louis Bellson and barely a paragraph for Kenny Clarke, the latter being, with no disrespect to Louis, appreciably more important to the history of the music and his instrument. The expression of race bias was fairly obvious to me. Might go back and check if the phenomenon repeats itself in literature (how does Langston Hughes' page compare to Carl Sandburg's?) Dillon On Nov 2, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been > removed. But > they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see > what > someone could so easily add to an entry. > > Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. > > I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' > research. I > do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add > information. > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Christina E Lovin > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi > (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > the truth and the way,'" she said. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 10:24:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: IS THERE REALLY LEAD IN THAT!? until you can prove it LEAVE CHINA ALONE! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, I'm 41 years old. Ever since I was able to read as a little kid I remember reading the label MADE IN CHINA on the bottom of, on the back of, nearly everything in my filthy little home. As far as I knew everything was made in China, except coffins, which I knew my family made in the factory. But seriously, every toy, shoe, telephone, spatula, necklace, as far as I knew even the sky, even babies, all came from China and were brought over in big magical boats for our homes. It's just really ODD to me that all of a sudden every single fucking week on the news there's yet another story about lead in the paint of a TOY, or poison in the dog food. It's SO ODD! I mean, was it always there and we're just now figuring it out? Or did someone lose their mind in China and suddenly think it's good to use lead and other poisons? No, I'm not convinced. In fact you might think I'm paranoid, but I just don't believe it's happening. I don't. WHY after all of these years would manufacturers in China start using something to ship to America KNOWING that it's illegal to have on our store shelves? Like I said, you might think I'm paranoid, but I don't believe it. What do I believe instead? Well, so far (and I've been looking) all the stories I've seen and heard about this don't interview anyone in China from the factories. The stories are all American. And American businesses are so competitive that I don't put it past them to prey on American consumer minds to use racism, and to use CHILDREN and PUPPIES, the two most beloved living American beings, to do it. Am I paranoid? But aren't we living in a country right now whose corporations sent us to war in Iraq? According to Amy Goodman of DEMOCRACY NOW, all of the major television news corporations, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, are each part of separate conglomerate entities which each also own companies which design and manufacture weapons. And she told us in Philadelphia when giving a talk at the University of Pennsylvania Law School that her friends from all of these major news stations have told her that they were receiving phone calls directly into the control rooms on the first few days after the invasion of Iraq, making sure that they got a close up of a certain kind of machine gun, or tank, or some other weapon. In researching this odd need to focus on particular ITEMS on their news coverage at the start of the war, Goodman discovered that THESE ITEMS in each case were ITEMS made by weapons manufacturers owned by the same conglomerates who owned each of the news stations. OUR NEWS STATIONS MANUFACTURE WEAPONS OH MY GOD! Conflict of interest for the coverage of the conflict in Iraq? Yeah, just a tad. Am I paranoid? Well, AREN'T YOU FOR FUCK SAKE!? Anyway, until someone can show me PROOF that people in China are REALLY TRYING TO KILL America's children and puppies, I'm not believing it! We're being set up, it's a hunch, just a hunch, but maybe I'm right! But as far as I'm aware American businesses will do ANYTHING and it really does seem true they will do ANYTHING to make a buck! Including kill close to a million people in Iraq to do so. Destroy families. Bomb homes. Should the babies of the world fear America? How many dogs were killed by American bombs and gunfire in Baghdad in recent years? Lead in the paint and poison in the puppy chow is NOTHING compared to that! We have a lot of fucking nerve some days! But maybe I'm wrong. But at the moment I'm thinking I'm right! But if someone knows of a source of news to clear it up for me, trust me, I'm more than willing to see and hear it. ANOTHER SUSPICIOUS MORNING! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: one more thing on the WP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I agree with people who view wikipedia as a useful tool. I suppose (shorter Simon) that the counterpoint is "don't do wikipedia any favors." I forget the exact rank, but wikipedia is somewhere in the top ten of all websites in terms of visits and "eyeball share." This is absolutely amazing. The founders (Jimbo Wales is the one remaining) I think have absolutely no idea how this happened. They are sitting on something that is worth more than facebook. Literally, billions of dollars are somewhere in there, and the people paying for the server space are trying to figure out where it's hiding. (While they are also asking for donations.) Right now they are trying to "monetize" it by spinning off for-profit wikipedia-like sites (I believe "WikiCities" was one.) You haven't heard of WikiCities because it flopped. They haven't found the cash. Wikipedia itself is run by a non-profit "foundation". Formally, the people who are trying to make money off the wikipedia concept are legally separate from the foundation people. But to say there is overlap and conflict-of-interest is to put it mildly. Everyone stands to become rich beyond their wildest dreams. I've seen more than once (check rhubarb for "flagged revisions") this impulse affect what happens on wikipedia. Wikipedia is, in the end, a bit of a mess -- legally, pr-wise, etc. -- and the goal right now seems to be figuring out how to make it cash-friendly. I think, in other words, that people should be wary of investing their time in wikipedia's poetry coverage. I think it is much wiser to build your own sites and information networks rather than labor for free on a project that nobody in the community will control or profit from. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 13:01:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: email for Rachel Levitsky? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, could someone please backchannel Rachel Levitsky's current email = address? =20 Thank you! =20 Camille=20 =20 Camille Martin Toronto, Ontario Canada ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 12:36:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Afghan Kabul Account Comments: cc: UK POETRY , Poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A close, human rights activist and writer friend of mine is in Kabul with the job of interviewing folks who were released from Qauntanamo. A relative novice at this kind of work, before he left, he was told that Kabul, in contrast to other parts of the country, would be safe. I know this account does not fit the contours of most of our current or absence of discussions of poetry, but I think it is an account that lives at the periphery of the collective Euro-American consciousness, the stuff that can now be attributed to "our name." Stephen http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ I'm still in Kabul -- paranoia land. Dinner last night with an American lawyer working for the State Department. She's living inside the wire, in a drug dealer baroque palace rented from a warlord by the us Govt, with thirty foot blast walls around it. One block to the restaurant but she had to go with the full MST, mobile support team. One armored SUV with a driver plus chase car with driver and gunman. She says it's better than when she had the PSD -- personal secuirity detail. That's a guy from Dyncorp who goes in the restauraunt with loaded gun and sweeps it before she can go in. She had the PSD in Herat, where she was blown up by the police chief because the US Govt police training program insisted on paying the police directly, thus taking the money for the innumerable ghost policement away from the police chief. So he rocketed them and killed her Nepali driver. (Not a real Ghurka, she says.) Anyway, the MST won't let us ride with her the one block to the restaurant so we have to walk, past extremely paranoid trigger-happy security guards, but at least it's only one block. We get there. It's Lebanese, USgovt approved, there's a very short list, and since they can't go anywhere without the MST they can't really mingle with the population. They're all going mad with boredom inside the wire. This is true for all US govt personnel, consequently theyhave no contact with the population at all. At the restaurant, she tells us about (a) the incident at the Internet Cafe at which her friend was blown up, and (b) how the prison support project was ambushed on the road to the prison (edge of the city) and two more people killed. This all in the last year. They all ride around in up -armored SUVs with chase cars which makes them very easy to spot. Reportedly they are moving to low profile Toyota saloons like everybody else, very smart. Meanwhile the real targets are the US supported National Army and the international force (ISAF) patrols. When the national army comes through they aim their rifles at the nearby cars, just in case they are suicide bombers. Everybody gets extremely paranoid. SInce this is all happening in the m iddle of the permanent Kabul traffic jam it kind of takes place in slow motion. Very creepy. No wonder everybody in this town is kind of brusque and they don't like foreigners much. The ISAF patrols are even worse, they stand out like sore thumbs in their APCs. They have six month tours, don't speak the language, never meet the locals, and don't know where they are. This is madness. Andrew ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:17:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Rhetoric MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've forgotten everything about this guy, but I took a classics class once. Longinus: his "On the Sublime" deals with rhetoric. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 12:05:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i have aq lousy entry on wikipedia don't know who put it there it needs adding to and subtracting from tho it's very short to begin with how do i change it? i used wikipedia to write a short article on anthony braxton it helped immensely On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 Christina E Lovin writes: > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry > for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi > (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, > I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young > Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the > standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some > students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous > Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > > the truth and the way,'" she said. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 17:31:51 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tomas weber Subject: what do you think of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline poetry - using words to *create* a meaning *for* an audience prose - using words to *convey *a meaning *to* an audience -- "They taught me the names of the days and I marvelled at there being so few and flourished my little fists, crying out for more." - S. B. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 13:29:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: RECIPES: + rAMOND cHANDLER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i got this from Kafka's Soup: 1 kg lean leg of lamb, cut into large chunks 1 onion, sliced 1 carrot, cut into sticks 1 tablespoon crushed dill seeds, or 2-4 sprigs fresh dill 1 bay leaf 12 peppercorn 1/2 teaspoon salt 850 ml chicken stock 505 butter 1 tablespoon plain flour 1 egg yolk 3 tablespoons cream 2 teaspoons lemon juice Freshly ground black peper I sipped on my whisky sour, ground out my cigarette on the chopping board and watched a bug trying to crawlout of the basin. I needd a tqable at Maxim's, a hundred bucks and a gorgeous blonde; what I had was a leg of lamb and no clues... (in goes on in Mark Crick's fun little book.). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:47:42 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <20071103.122129.2984.13.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At the top of the page you will see four tabs: article, discussion, edit this page, and history. Look around in there and you'll see what's what. However, it's considered very, very bad form to try and edit a page that concerns you. "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: i have aq lousy entry on wikipedia don't know who put it there it needs adding to and subtracting from tho it's very short to begin with how do i change it? i used wikipedia to write a short article on anthony braxton it helped immensely On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 Christina E Lovin writes: > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry > for > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi > (plural of > doofus) out there. > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, > I > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young > Lee > entry? > > Christina > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative > > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > > reference for term papers. > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit > > on an existing one. > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > > her class. > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, > > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill > > this in?" > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and > > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and > > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > research paper. > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the > standards > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world > > of peer-reviewed research. > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some > students > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous > Wikipedia > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is > > the truth and the way,'" she said. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 16:54:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <232102.3923.qm@web86001.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's a fair point. I did think about adding to the entry on Clarke, but realized that the only thing I could do was go into my library and reprint information from other people's research, which is certainly what most of the entries on wikipedia consist of, hopefully with proper credit. That didn't excite me much, and didn't seem all that valuable to the public. I think if I had some original research on Clarke or someone else, then I would feel obliged to put that up. But, in the spirit of someone who still believes in the site, I will take up your challenge and go beef up the entry, instead of complaining. Check back if you're interes As far as the racism charge (I think I said "race bias"), I don't mean racism as the attitude of any individual or group, especially given the editorial configuration of wikipedia. It just seems obvious to me that the weighting of information on wikipedia reflects the makeup of its contributors. One other thing Nature found out is that wikipedia is actually better than Encyclopedia Brittanica on science and technology, worse on humanities. I'm inclined to infer that there are, then, more science and tech savvy contributors than lit-savvy ones. Perhaps it is inaccurate to also make the inference that, among those writing entries on American jazz musicians, more of them are white than black. The only criticism I'd make beyond that is, if I sat down and wrote a very long entry on Louis Bellson that repeated the claim "the greatest drummer in the world", I'd feel a little guilty about not going and giving credit to the guys whose shoulders Bellson sat on (and certainly that includes Klook, Papa Jo Jones and also Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich). Dillon On Nov 3, 2007, at 8:05 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > So Louis Bellson has one big fan who takes the trouble to > contribute to Wikipedia and Klook hasn't found his yet so you > attribute it to racism. If you have some knowledge of the subject, > why don't you take the time to expand the entry? Or at least > contribute to the discussion behind the Clarke article? > > Dillon Westbrook wrote: I'll chime in and > say what I said to my students on the wikipedia > subject. Nature did a fairly exhaustive comparison of Wikipedia and > Encyclopedia Britannica (sorry, can't afford the nature subscription > to link to that study, but an intrepid person could probably dig it > up). The result was that the two were dead even, which says one thing > pretty clearly- encyclopedias are what they are, curiosity saters and > occasional beacons to better sources, but not research material. > Personally, I commend wikipedia for how good it is on current events, > its "news worthy" entries on recent events are occasionally better > than AP. > > I've found decent stuff on poets like Robert Duncan or H.D., scant > little on some more recent (curious to go check out the entry on > Susan Howe though). Even more offensive to me were entries on jazz > musicians, particularly drummers- there was a large scrolling page > for Louis Bellson and barely a paragraph for Kenny Clarke, the latter > being, with no disrespect to Louis, appreciably more important to the > history of the music and his instrument. The expression of race bias > was fairly obvious to me. Might go back and check if the phenomenon > repeats itself in literature (how does Langston Hughes' page compare > to Carl Sandburg's?) > > Dillon > > On Nov 2, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > >> Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been >> removed. But >> they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see >> what >> someone could so easily add to an entry. >> >> Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. >> >> I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' >> research. I >> do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add >> information. >> >> Christina >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Christina E Lovin >> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment >> >> I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for >> Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi >> (plural of >> doofus) out there. >> >> I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I >> absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. >> >> I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young >> Lee >> entry? >> >> Christina >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >> Behalf Of mIEKAL aND >> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment >> >> (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous >> profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative >> poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh >> blood. ~mIEKAL) >> >> Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment >> By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer >> >> http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html >> >> (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a >> reference for term papers. >> >> Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to >> turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them >> either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit >> on an existing one. >> >> The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for >> her class. >> >> "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, >> "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill >> this in?" >> >> Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and >> the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily >> concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of >> sources students cite has deteriorated. >> >> For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and >> students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad >> research paper. >> >> Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried >> professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards >> set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy >> and neutral tone, Groom said. >> >> The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world >> of peer-reviewed research. >> >> Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students >> caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college >> students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. >> >> "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia >> editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference >> between good secondary research and the average college paper. >> >> "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is >> the truth and the way,'" she said. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 17:16:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SELF-IMMOLATION: A voluntary sacrifice or denial of oneself, as for an ideal or another person. Most famously demonstrated by Buddhist monk Thich Quang Duc on June 11, 1963 in Vietnam. Most recently demonstrated by musician Malachi Ritscher in Chicago on November 3, 2006 as a protest against the Iraq war. One year ago, Malachi set himself on fire next to the Kennedy Expressway during morning rush hour. He left a statement and obituary on his website. http://www.savagesound.com/gallery99.htm As the Iraq War moves towards year 5, I am taking some time to think about Malachi. I am wondering how we find new ways to express our sadness, rage, and disgust. When does the turning point come? When is it enough? Onwards, Jennifer Karmin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:22:31 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: sidewalk (anti-war) blog news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=15490&l=e0c18&id=654553661 This weekend brings more signs on the windward side of O`ahu. One was torn down overnight, but will be recycled. That one and the others can be viewed via the facebook album page. Simply click to enlarge photos and read their stories. aloha, the Sidewalk Blogger ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 20:40:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well you want to edit it for me i'll givre you the info On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:47:42 +0000 Barry Schwabsky writes: > At the top of the page you will see four tabs: article, discussion, > edit this page, and history. Look around in there and you'll see > what's what. > However, it's considered very, very bad form to try and edit a > page that concerns you. > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > i have aq lousy entry on wikipedia don't know who put it there > it needs adding to and subtracting from tho it's very short to begin > with > > how do i change it? > i used wikipedia to write a short article on anthony braxton it > helped > immensely > > On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 Christina E Lovin > writes: > > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry > > for > > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi > > (plural of > > doofus) out there. > > > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my > students, > > I > > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young > > > Lee > > entry? > > > > Christina > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the > innovative > > > > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > > > > > reference for term papers. > > > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > > > > > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major > edit > > > > on an existing one. > > > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > > > > > her class. > > > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would > think, > > > > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could > fill > > > > this in?" > > > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, > and > > > > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," > and > > > > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > > research paper. > > > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the > > standards > > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > > > > > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real > world > > > > of peer-reviewed research. > > > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some > > students > > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical > essay. > > > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous > > Wikipedia > > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this > is > > > > the truth and the way,'" she said. > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:13:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Reading in Seattle, Sat Nov 10: Carletta Wilson & Jim Andrews MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My friend Joe Keppler has a show up of steel sculpture in Seattle, so I'm going south to see the show. He's a terrific poet, sculptor, sound artist, photographer, and performer. His steel sculptures are very interesting and often provocatively literary. Not concrete but steel. Meeting Joe back in the 80's was a turning point in my life; Joe and some other artists in Seattle I met back then have a strong intermedial, polyartistic side to their literary work that makes Seattle a special place of literary synthesis. On Saturday Nov 10 I'll be doing a reading, as will Carletta Wilson, at Joe's show of steel sculpture. I hope you can make it. Po Et Ry Reading @ FSL /GALLERY 619 N. 35th, Suite 100, FREMONT in the cul-de-sac north of the PCC parking entrance 206-545-6974 Nov 10, 8 pm Carletta Wilson & Jim Andrews accompanied with visual art by Joe Keppler doors open 6pm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:16:22 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Save the Date - Evening of Sat Nov 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy friends - I'm writing you to let you know that the evening of Saturday November 17 I will be hosting a poetry reading at my home in Chapel Hill NC (map: http://tinyurl.com/2ws8ob) to which you are all invited. Readers? Drum roll, please... Murat Nemet-Nejat (Hoboken, NJ) http://google.com/search?q=murat+nemet-nejat Standard Schaefer (San Francisco, CA) http://google.com/search?q=standard+schaefer Rodrigo Garcia Lopes (Chapel Hill, NC) http://google.com/search?q=rodrigo+garcia+lopes Allyssa Wolf (Raleigh, NC) http://google.com/search?q=allyssa+wolf I'm also hoping to screen the film _Satori Uso_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFkkNV77h28). I will probably open my door to everyone around 9PM and start readings around 10 or so. More details are to follow soon and what is listed here is SUBJECT TO CHANGE. Consider this a save-the-date notice. And don't hesitate to email me should you have any questions for me. Patrick -- Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ph/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 23:09:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: A perfect day in Maine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed A perfect day in Maine On the beach I walk and think, I hate these avatars of mine, they don't do anything worthwhile at this point. It's too easy to make interesting images and my brain is emptied out. Buddhist aggregates would fill it, but then there's the problem they might end up annihilated, who wants empti- ness when the replete amazes. I learn that if sound and sight are discon- nected from production, why should I bother with meaning? Who wants to just listen and watch, when everyone has heard and seen everything? Why are there many rather than one? The ultimate koan - surely the number is random, surely there would be meaningless degree? Or not? Mind won't say. I can't even say rock, snail, woman, water. The most difficult lesson: Some things have no causes at all. http://www.asondheim.org/image1.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/image2.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:13:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: It's Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline WW91IG1lZXQgc29tZW9uZSB3aG8gZW5qb3lzIG1ha2luZyBlbmVtaWVzLgpWZXJ5IHNvb24sIHlv dSB0ZXJyaWZ5IHRoaXMgcGVyc29uLCB0aGlzIGdob3N0LgpJdCB3YXMgbmV2ZXIgc28gbmVhciB0 aGF0IGl0IGNvdWxkIGhhdmUgeW91CgpPdXRyaWdodC4gVGhlc2UgcGVvcGxlIGFyZSBhZnJhaWQg b2YgdXMsIGFzIG9mIGZpcmUsClRoZXNlIGdob3N0cy4gVGhleSd2ZSBnb25lIG91dCBiZXlvbmQg dGhlIHN0YXJzLApQYXN0IHRoZSBsb3N0IGFydHMsIGFuZCBoYXZpbmcgdGhlbSBsb3N0LCBoYXZl CgpUaGVpciBvd24gYXJ0cyBsb3N0LiBJIHdhcyBhbW9uZyB0aGVtIGJ5IHRoZSByaXZlciwKQWxv bmcgdGhlbSBhdCB0aGUgY3VyYiwgYW5kIGluIHRoZSBzdHJlZXQsIGFuZCB0aGVuCkFsc28gaW4g dGhlIHRydW5rcyBvZiB0aGVpciBjYXJzLCBzYXlpbmcg4oCUIGFzIHZhbGV0LAoKYXMgdmFsZXQg 4oCUIHNheWluZyBzb21ldGhpbmcgYmVhdXRpZnVsLCBpbnRvbGVyYWJseSwgdG8KUHJvdmUgdGhh dCB0aGV5IGV4aXN0IG5vdCBiZXR3ZWVuLCBidXQgYmVmb3JlLCB0aGUgc3RhcnMuCg== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:13:05 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: <11d2114b0711031031m7c22ebdaxe6b187f93bc243eb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think it sounds nice but isn't very meaningful, which is probably necessary in seeking for a general definition that distinguishes poetry from prose. However, even by that standard, the role of the audience is simply too passive here. Elizabeth Kate Switaj http://www.elizabethkateswitaj.net/ On 11/4/07, tomas weber wrote: > > poetry - using words to *create* a meaning *for* an audience > > prose - using words to *convey *a meaning *to* an audience > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 00:04:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Deep Image (again) Comments: To: Pierre Joris Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like =B3Deep Image=B2 come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their ver= y own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D96 =3D20=3D Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D20=3D > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Rothenberg & Kelly used it briefly =96 a few essays in Trobar, plus a =20= letter exchange with Creeley and some other material. But neither of =20 them were into founding a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly =20 was somewhat close to them, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost =20 interest in formalizing their first insights and got busy elsewhere, =20 Bly ran with the concept. I have a graduate student working on a diss =20= around Deep Image right now, & I hope he will come up with a =20 publishable book that would include all the essays & correspondence =20 around DI =96 which I believe was an important moment in post-War US =20 poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection of essays, =20 ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to his =20 piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter =20 quotes Olson's response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : =20 "not imageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate =20 understanding of the original Deep Image project =96 while the later =20 counterfeiters (Bly, Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they =20 are all about imageS. =96 Pierre On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote: > Thank you for that, Pierre. > > And just how does a term like =93Deep Image=94 come to be re-used in =20= > such an > unlikely context? And why? > > Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of =20 > their very > own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? > > > Diane di Prima > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 > From: Pierre Joris > Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ > > Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20 > poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20 > Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =20= > =3D20 > however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =20 > =3D96 =3D20=3D > > Pierre > > On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > >> i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =20= >> =3D20 >> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20 >> the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 >> poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20 >> enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 >> prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20 >> influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 >> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =20= >> =3D20=3D > >> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 >> influenced Language poets? >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan > ___________________________________________________________ > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > ____________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:09:37 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <20071103.204148.2896.2.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ah, conspiracy! "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: well you want to edit it for me i'll givre you the info On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:47:42 +0000 Barry Schwabsky writes: > At the top of the page you will see four tabs: article, discussion, > edit this page, and history. Look around in there and you'll see > what's what. > However, it's considered very, very bad form to try and edit a > page that concerns you. > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > i have aq lousy entry on wikipedia don't know who put it there > it needs adding to and subtracting from tho it's very short to begin > with > > how do i change it? > i used wikipedia to write a short article on anthony braxton it > helped > immensely > > On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 Christina E Lovin > writes: > > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry > > for > > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi > > (plural of > > doofus) out there. > > > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my > students, > > I > > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young > > > Lee > > entry? > > > > Christina > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the > innovative > > > > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > > > > > reference for term papers. > > > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > > > > > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major > edit > > > > on an existing one. > > > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > > > > > her class. > > > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would > think, > > > > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could > fill > > > > this in?" > > > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, > and > > > > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," > and > > > > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > > research paper. > > > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the > > standards > > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > > > > > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real > world > > > > of peer-reviewed research. > > > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some > > students > > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical > essay. > > > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous > > Wikipedia > > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this > is > > > > the truth and the way,'" she said. > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:24:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't believe Ammons used that term or that it is normally applied to his work. Robert Bly, Galway Kinnell, W.S. Merwin, and James Wright are names I see associated with the term. I would think that Ammons' use of technical vocabularies would be the most important of a number of reasons why Ammons' work might be anathema to Bly and his colleagues. Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like ³Deep Image² come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their very own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =96 =20= Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =20= > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:02:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I posted about "deep image." Merwin & J Wright have been lumped in that school. I spoke of Ammons as an iconoclast, belonging to no school. I mentioned in one of my post my fondness for "Tape for the Turning of the Year" by Ammons, a poem that seems to me to anticipate the Language poetics. I may be wrong about "the story." I'm usually thinking out loud when I post. I'm anything, but not infallible. Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like ³Deep Image² come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their very own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =96 =20= Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =20= > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:06:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not only am i not infallible, I just scrolled down to Pierre Joris. He answers my question. I wasn't aware of the Bly/Merwin hijacking. Bly, I find, tedious. The New Age guru bullshit gets on my nerves. Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like ³Deep Image² come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their very own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =96 =20= Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =20= > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:22:36 -0800 Reply-To: Del Ray Cross Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Del Ray Cross Subject: SHAMPOO 31 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Hair-Adorning Citizens, Shampoo issue 31 finally has that lustrous finish. =20 Check it out here: www.ShampooPoetry.com It=E2=80=99s a special postcard poems issue with Tim Yu,=20 Stephanie Young, Debbie Yee, Doreen Wang, Paul=20 Siegell, Soham Patel, Ronald Palmer, John Oakey,=20 Andy Nicholson, Laura Navratil, Mika Nagasaki, Sara=20 Mumolo, Sonia Mukherji, H.E. Mantel, Nicholas=20 Manning, Christina Lopez, Cassie Lewis, Joseph O.=20 Legaspi, Rong Lee, Rathanak Michael Keo, Scott=20 Keeney, Janine Joseph, Alexander Jorgensen, Megan=20 Hartline, Kate Hall, Kevin Griffith, Rachel Gray, Marco=20 Giovenale, Sarah Gambito, Emily Kendal Frey, Oliver=20 de la Paz, Peter Davis, Jennifer Dannenberg, Del Ray=20 Cross, Jennifer Chang, Laura Carter, Avery Burns,=20 Julian T. Brolaski, Tamiko Beyer, Luis Cuauhtemoc=20 Berriozabal, Christopher Barnes, Hossannah=20 Asuncion, Shane Allison, Helene Achanzar, and Scott=20 Abels, along with a Shampoo Postcard by Otto Chan. Wish You Were Here, Del Ray Cross, Editor SHAMPOO clean hair / good poetry www.ShampooPoetry.com (if you'd prefer not to receive these messages, just let me know) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:29:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment In-Reply-To: <20071103.204148.2896.2.skyplums@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This discussion has been quite interesting, & says a lot about the attitudes people hold about wikipedia. One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that among young people (or at least those in my world) wikipedia is used automatically as a portal into any inquiry. Being children of the internet age I'm pretty sure most of them realize it is one possible source of information & not gospel. & as has been mentioned previous wikipedia is one of the top 5 websites on the net & gets tremendous amounts of traffic. A couple references to my projects generate hundreds of hits a month onto my own websites. Wikipedia introduced Veropedia last month, which is the next logical step in user-contributed content. For those that use wikipedia for research this may prove useful in the long term. This is still in the beta stage so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. From the FAQ: Veropedia is a collaborative effort by a group of Wikipedians to collect the best of Wikipedia's content, clean it up, vet it, and save it for all time. These articles are stable and cannot be edited, The result is a quality stable version that can be trusted by students, teachers, and anyone else who is looking for top-notch, reliable information. http://veropedia.com/docs/faq.php ~mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:09:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester In-Reply-To: <350445.54080.qm@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit thank you, jennifer. can think of various people to send this to, for various reasons, and I am appreciative to have it myself. On 11/3/07 8:16 PM, "Jennifer Karmin" wrote: > SELF-IMMOLATION: A voluntary sacrifice or denial of > oneself, as for an ideal or another person. > > Most famously demonstrated by Buddhist monk Thich > Quang Duc on June 11, 1963 in Vietnam. > > Most recently demonstrated by musician Malachi > Ritscher in Chicago on November 3, 2006 as a protest > against the Iraq war. One year ago, Malachi set > himself on fire next to the Kennedy Expressway during > morning rush hour. He left a statement and obituary > on his website. > http://www.savagesound.com/gallery99.htm > > As the Iraq War moves towards year 5, I am taking > some time to think about Malachi. I am wondering how > we find new ways to express our sadness, rage, and > disgust. When does the turning point come? When is > it enough? > > Onwards, > Jennifer Karmin > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 08:49:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am jumping in after your response, Diane. I remember how much James Wright influenced me while I was in college. I thought his style was considered "common language"--(sounds almost like plain english in legal forms.) He seemed to be the epitome of the 1970's poet, especially in my part of the country--the midwest. I was just thinking about his poem, "Autumn Beings in Martin's Ferry, Ohio." The poem does not have the impact that it once had on me, but I still find it poignant--and deep, if I understand the way you are using that term (which I may not be understanding at all). Mary Kasimor Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like ³Deep Image² come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their very own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =96 =20= Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =20= > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 16:58:08 +0000 Reply-To: editor@fulcrumpoetry.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Subject: NEW CONTACT INFO: FULCRUM HAS MOVED! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, FULCRUM, Philip and Katia Kapovich have relocated to a new address and telephone number. Please make a note of the information below. Our email and website URL remain the same. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip Nikolayev, Coeditor-in-Chief FULCRUM: AN ANNUAL OF POETRY AND AESTHETICS 421 Huron Avenue Cambridge, MA 02138, USA http://fulcrumpoetry.com phone +1.617.997.1654 e-mail editor{AT}fulcrumpoetry.com personal http://www.myspace.com/nikolayev Letters from Aldenderry: http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844712796.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:03:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Rick Hilles and Jo McDougall / Columbia College Chicago / November 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RICK HILLES and JO McDOUGALL POETRY READING Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 5:30 p.m. Columbia College Chicago: Collins Hall, 624 S. Michigan, 6th floor Free and open to the public For more information, call Becca Klaver, 312-344-8819 RICK HILLES's poetry collection, BROTHER SALVAGE, won the 2005 Agnes Lynch Starrett Prize from University of Pittsburgh Press, and was recently named the 2006 Foreword Magazine Poetry Book of the Year. His poems have appeared in POETRY, THE NATION, THE NEW REPUBLIC, PLOUGHSHARES, SALMAGUNDI, and WITNESS. He has received the Amy Lowell Poetry Traveling Scholarship, the Wallace Stegner Fellowship at Stanford, the Halls Fellowship from Institute for Creative Writing at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, and The Missouri Review's Levis Editor's Prize. During Fall 2007, he is Writer in Residence at the James Merrill House in Stonington, CT. He is an Assistant Professor at Vanderbilt University and lives in Nashville, Tennessee with his wife, the fiction writer Nancy Reisman. JO McDOUGALL is the author of five books of poetry, the latest two being DIRT and SATISFIED WITH HAVOC. She has won awards from the DeWitt Wallace/Reader's Digest foundation, the Academy of American Poets, and fellowships to the MacDowell Colony. Widely anthologized, her work has been adapted for film, theater, and musical compositions. TOWNS FACING RAILROADS, an adaptation of her poetry, was staged at the Arkansas Repertory Theatre in 2006. Her poems have appeared in COURT GREEN, HUDSON REVIEW, GEORGIA REVIEW, KENYON REVIEW, MiPOESIAS, and NEW LETTERS, among others. She is a former co-director of creative writing at Pittsburg State University, Pittsburg, Kansas. A native of Arkansas, she lives in Kansas City and is completing a memoir, DADDY'S MONEY. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:15:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: I'll Say I'm Only Visiting by Thibault Raoult MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cannibal Chapbook Series announces the release of I'll Say I'm Only Visiting by Thibault Raoult 32 pp. Side-stapled on high quality paper $6 Paypal button, cover image, and link to sample poem flesheatingpoems.blogspot.com Queries at flesheatingpoems@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:56:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: SEAN COLE and BRANDON DOWNING @ SEGUE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SEAN COLE and BRANDON DOWNING Saturday November 10, 4:00-6:00 p.m. Segue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, one block above Houston $6 goes to support the readers Sean Cole is the author of the chapbooks By the Author and Itty City and of= a full-length collection of postcard poems called The December Project. He= is also a reporter for public radio. In his spare time, he writes bios lik= e this one. Brandon Downing=92s books of poetry include LAZIO (Blue Books, 2000), The S= hirt Weapon (Germ, 2002), and Dark Brandon (Faux, 2005). A new DVD collecti= on, Dark Brandon // The Filmi, was just released, and he=92s currently comp= leting a monograph of his literary collages under the title Lake Antiquity. _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0 Play Star Shuffle:=A0 the word scramble = challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= t= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:03:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: <74963.27099.qm@web86012.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 23 years ago I was at an art colony with a very=20 conservative (poetically) poet of the Poetry=20 Magazine/New Yorker etc crowd. I don't remember=20 his name--taught in Norfolk, I think. He was=20 putting together an anthology of American Poetry=20 that I think never saw the light of day, but he=20 did have a university press book contract. He=20 showed me his predictable and rather appalling=20 list of poets. I mentioned a few of those he'd=20 left out, among them Armand Schwerner.=20 "Schwerner. Interesting. I could use a=20 representative of the Deep Image school." So I=20 told him I'd call Armand, which I did. "Armand,=20 there's this guy here doing an anthology and=20 wants some of your work." "Great! I'll send it=20 right away." "He wants to include you as a=20 representative of Deep Image." "Oh. Forget it." Mark At 09:24 AM 11/4/2007, you wrote: >I don't believe Ammons used that term or that it=20 >is normally applied to his work. Robert Bly,=20 >Galway Kinnell, W.S. Merwin, and James Wright=20 >are names I see associated with the term. I=20 >would think that Ammons' use of technical=20 >vocabularies would be the most important of a=20 >number of reasons why Ammons' work might be anathema to Bly and his= colleagues. > >Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. > >And just how does a term like =B3Deep Image=B2 come to be re-used in such= an >unlikely context? And why? > >Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their= very >own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? > > >Diane di Prima > > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 >From: Pierre Joris >Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ > >Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20 >poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20 >Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D20 >however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D96= =3D20=3D > >Pierre > >On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > > > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D20 > > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20 > > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 > > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20 > > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 > > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20 > > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 > > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D2= 0=3D > > > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 > > influenced Language poets? > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >___________________________________________________________ >Pierre Joris >244 Elm Street >Albany NY 12202 >h: 518 426 0433 >c: 518 225 7123 >o: 518 442 40 71 >Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >email: joris@albany.edu >http://pierrejoris.com >Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:05:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: <339150.87004.qm@web52411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a very large literature that anticipates=20 Language poetics, as Language poets would be the=20 first to tell you. Most of their 20th Century=20 influences are included, with of course a great=20 deal else, in Poems for the Millennium, a good place to troll in any event. Mark At 10:02 AM 11/4/2007, you wrote: >I posted about "deep image." Merwin & J Wright=20 >have been lumped in that school. I spoke of=20 >Ammons as an iconoclast, belonging to no school.=20 >I mentioned in one of my post my fondness for=20 >"Tape for the Turning of the Year" by Ammons, a=20 >poem that seems to me to anticipate the Language=20 >poetics. I may be wrong about "the story." I'm=20 >usually thinking out loud when I post. I'm anything, but not infallible. > >Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. > >And just how does a term like =B3Deep Image=B2 come to be re-used in such= an >unlikely context? And why? > >Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their= very >own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? > > >Diane di Prima > > > > > >Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 >From: Pierre Joris >Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ > >Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20 >poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20 >Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D20 >however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D96= =3D20=3D > >Pierre > >On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > > > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D20 > > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20 > > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 > > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20 > > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 > > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20 > > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 > > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D2= 0=3D > > > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 > > influenced Language poets? > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >___________________________________________________________ >Pierre Joris >244 Elm Street >Albany NY 12202 >h: 518 426 0433 >c: 518 225 7123 >o: 518 442 40 71 >Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >email: joris@albany.edu >http://pierrejoris.com >Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >____________________________________________________________ > > > __________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 12:42:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the distinction is primarily a tactical one as relates to composition, that poetry is built from the basic unit of the sentence whereas prose it built from the basic unit of the paragraph. Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > I think it sounds nice but isn't very meaningful, which is probably > necessary in seeking for a general definition that distinguishes poetry from > prose. However, even by that standard, the role of the audience is simply > too passive here. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > http://www.elizabethkateswitaj.net/ > > On 11/4/07, tomas weber wrote: > >> poetry - using words to *create* a meaning *for* an audience >> >> prose - using words to *convey *a meaning *to* an audience >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:22:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: dbCinema images MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit some new images from dbCinema: http://vispo.com/dbcinema/sunset http://vispo.com/dbcinema/saint the first series is made of pictures dbcinema downloaded via a query of 'beautiful sunset'. the second series is made of pictures dbcinema downloaded via a query of 'silvia saint'. the series i've done so far are collected at http://vispo.com/dbcinema/meditations.htm . all these images are screenshots from movies that dbCinema generated. they're screenshots of movies taken while the movies play. dbCinema itself (the software) is not online yet. the basic idea of dbCinema is to create a new form of cinema. interactive, net-dependent, painterly cinema that combines the computer's well-known poetential concerning visual abstraction with the representational possibilities posed by being able to type in anything and get relevant images back (via google and yahoo image search). dbCinema is a work of generative software art. it is cinema for those who like interactive work, visual art, and being able to shape cinema like a potter shapes clay on the gyre. the new series (sunset and saint) are quite abstract, but dbCinema 'brushes' can be configured to reveal as much of the downloaded images as you like (as in the less abstract leftwich, huth, and kandinsky series at http://vispo.com/dbcinema/meditations.htm ). ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:16:03 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: Re: Rethoric MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thank you all for the suggestions! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:36:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Poets of the week: Bobbie Lurie & B. Nanci Rubin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --------------------------------- POETS OF THE WEEK This week's featured poets are: Bobbie Lurie and I.B. Nanci Rubin: Bobbie Lurie's (Corrales, New Mexico) second poetry collection, "Letter from the Lawn," was published by CustomWords in 2006. Her first collection, "The Book I Never Read," was published by CustomWords in 2003. Her poems have been published in numerous literary journals including APR, New American Writing and Shampoo. Nanci Rubin (Fredericksburg, Virgina) lives her husband and two children. Click on "FEATURED POETS" from the main PSH menu to read their work. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:21:48 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: A<11d2114b0711031031m7c22ebdaxe6b187f93bc243eb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks like a case of:=20 using prose to to convey to an audience a meaning for poetry=20 Wystan =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of tomas weber Sent: Sunday, 4 November 2007 6:32 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: what do you think of poetry - using words to *create* a meaning *for* an audience prose - using words to *convey *a meaning *to* an audience -- "They taught me the names of the days and I marvelled at there being so few and flourished my little fists, crying out for more." - S. B. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 23:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Four Upcoming Readings Comments: To: rubylouise@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed You are invited to the following: This Monday night, November 5th, I will be reading with the terrific =20 poet Cathy Park Hong, author of the new collection, Dance Dance =20 Revolution, at the KGB Bar=92s poetry series hosted by Michael =20 Quattrone, Laura Cronk and Deborah Landau. 7:30 p.m., KGB Bar, 85 East Fourth Street, near Second Avenue, New =20 York City (212) 505-3360. Thursday, November 29, I will read with C.K. Williams at the Stella =20 Adler Studio of Acting. The reading is free but advance reservations =20= are necessary at 212-689-0087. 6:30 p.m., Stella Adler Studio of Acting, 31 West 27th Street, New =20 York City (212) 689-0087. Monday, December 17, I will be one of a dozen poets reading prose =20 poems in celebration of David Lehman=92s anthology of prose poetry, in =20= the aforementioned KGB poetry series, above. Other poets will =20 include Mark Bibbins, Katy Lederer, Charles Bernstein, Billy Collins, =20= Mark Strand, and David Lehman. 7:30 p.m., KGB Bar, 85 East Fourth Street, near Second Avenue, New =20 York City (212) 505-3360. Finally, if January will find you in Los Angeles, I hope you will =20 consider coming to my reading at UCLA=92s Hammer Museum on Thursday, =20 January 24, 2007, at 7:00 p.m. Please let me know at susanwheeler@earthlink.net if you would prefer =20 to be removed from my notices list. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 02:21:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: Information on Deep Image MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Information about Rothenberg & Kelly's conception of Deep Image can be found in Daniel Kane's "All Poet's Welcome" which includes an interchange between Joris and Kane on this list. In his response Pierre mentions these same essays of Kelly's and the correspondence with Creeley. As well, he mentions his search for a graduate student to write a dissertation on the subject, a search which came to an end a number of years ago. Kelly's essay "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" can be found here: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9707&L=POETICS&P=R28032&D=1&I=-3 and the original Kane/Joris interaction on the poetics list can be found here: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=POETICS&D=1&O=D&I=-3&P=41859 Cheers! Adam ========================================================= Finding the measure is finding the specific music of the hour, the synchronous consequence of the motion of the whole world. --- Robert Kelly ========================================================= > Rothenberg & Kelly used it briefly – a few essays in Trobar, plus a > letter exchange with Creeley and some other material. But neither of > them were into founding a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly > was somewhat close to them, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost > interest in formalizing their first insights and got busy elsewhere, > Bly ran with the concept. I have a graduate student working on a diss > around Deep Image right now, & I hope he will come up with a > publishable book that would include all the essays & correspondence > around DI – which I believe was an important moment in post-War US > poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection of essays, > ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to his > piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter > quotes Olson's response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : > "not imageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate > understanding of the original Deep Image project – while the later > counterfeiters (Bly, Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they > are all about imageS. – Pierre > > On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote: > >> Thank you for that, Pierre. >> >> And just how does a term like “Deep Image” come to be re-used in >> such an >> unlikely context? And why? >> >> Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of >> their very >> own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? >> >> >> Diane di Prima >> >> >> >> >> >> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 >> From: Pierre Joris >> Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ >> >> Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20 >> poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20 >> Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have >> =20 >> however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. >> =96 =20= >> >> Pierre >> >> On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: >> >>> i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. >>> =20 >>> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20 >>> the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20 >>> poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20 >>> enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20 >>> prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20 >>> influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20 >>> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has >>> =20= >> >>> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =20 >>> influenced Language poets? >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> >> The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Pierre Joris >> 244 Elm Street >> Albany NY 12202 >> h: 518 426 0433 >> c: 518 225 7123 >> o: 518 442 40 71 >> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >> email: joris@albany.edu >> http://pierrejoris.com >> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >> ____________________________________________________________ > > ___________________________________________________________ > > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan > ___________________________________________________________ > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > ____________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 00:25:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: LitWalk: Bob Holman on Walt Whitman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series at the Bowery Poetry Club Bob Holman on Walt Whitman. November 5, 2007, 7:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. Award winning poet Bob Holman will discuss America's greatest poet, Walt Whitman and the formation of the Brooklyn Bridge. Through Whitman's work and photos from that period, you will learn about New York's greatest structure and the pivotal period after the Civil War. Robert Minhinnick on Dylan Thomas. December 2, 2007, 3:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. "Poetry Wales" magazine editor Robert Minhinnick will focus on Welsh poet Dylan Thomas and his mythical death in New York City after a drinking binge at the White Horse Tavern. Sponsored by Rattapallax. October is National Humanities Month! This program is educational and fun for students, educators, and poetry lovers. Free and open to the public as part of the Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series. This lecture series features prominent poets and writers discussing historical literary figures and their relationship with key New York City landmarks. More info at www.litwalks.com These program are supported, in part, by public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Litwalks is funded by the New York Council for the Humanities, a state affiliate of the National Endowment for the Humanities and public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the New York Council for the Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities. Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 19:10:41 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Ahadada Books Presents: The Late Poems of Lu You; The Old Man Who Does As He Pleases Translated by Burton Watson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear All, Anyone familiar with classical Chinese and Japanese literature in translation knows Burton Watson. Happily, Burton is my neighbor and my friend, and he agreed to allow Ahadada Books to "scoop" Columbia University Press (Burton's usual publisher) by publishing Late Poems of Lu You; The Old Man Who Does As He Pleases in a very attractive bilingual addition, which also includes excerpts from Lu You's travel diary. Lu You (1125--1210) was among the most prolific of Song Dynasty poets. His poems are notable for communicating a carefree enjoyment of life. Burton Watson's limpid versions capture the spirit of the originals, and are a joy to read as poems in themselves. Small Press Distribution has a number of copies on hand for sale (a large box of them are on the way to Berkeley from Japan even as I write), and the book has already garnered a great review from Donald Richie in the Japan Times. (You may read it on their website.) We also have a limited number of signed copies for sale. For these please back-channel me. This book would make a great addition to anyone's library. Thanks for reading! Jess (The original Ahadada) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Monaco Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: <7F93DF08-8491-42D6-ABBF-2002C37D56F8@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 A cursory glance of most poetry anthologies, as well as the various histori= es of Modern American poetry that have been published since the 1960=92s po= sit Bly as being the deep image =93school=92s=94 leading poet and theorist.= With the exception of some initial interactions between Bly and Rothenber= g, there is little in Bly=92s work to suggest that he fully grasped the cor= e group=92s attempt at conceptualizing deep image poetics. The deep image = poetics associated with Bly, in fact, can either be considered a misreading= of Rothenberg and Kelly=92s statements, or indeed a serious divergence dow= n another path. For Bly, a kind of solitude is necessary in deep image poet= ics. Although Kelly and Rothenberg allude to energy and movement in relati= on to the poetic image in their conception of the deep image, Bly omits the= participatory aspect of the image. Bly, the hero-poet, descends to the de= pths of the unconscious and performs an act of recovery and articulation fo= r the reader, as opposed to the demand for participation in the composition= of the poetic space that Kelly, Rothenberg, Owens, and Schwerner demand in= their own work. For all of the paths Bly=92s deep image poetics attempts = to reveal in the on-going struggle to re-connect humans to the cosmological= world, the main thrust of his poetics relies instead on =93plugging=94 the= image into a pre-existing mythological system based much more firmly on Ju= ng=92s theory of the archetype and the collective unconscious (see Bly=92s = _Iron John_). In fact, the casual way in which some dismiss the deep image= as a pedestrian deployment of Jungian archetypal psychology and the latent= structuralism of anthropologists like Levi-Strauss, can be directly attrib= uted to Bly=92s misreading. =20 Bly and Wright (Bly=92s =93co-conspirator=94) neglect the community-based o= rigins of deep image poetics. Publications like Kelly and Economou=92s Tro= bar and the various poetry readings that the core group held imply that at = the foundation of deep image poetics is the concept that each of these spac= es constitutes a site of resistance to the absorption of Modern American po= etry into the academy. Similarly, each of these spaces opens up an arena f= or on-going conversations among poets and text, broadly defined. By placin= g translations of pre-modern, esoteric, troubadour, as well as Surrealist p= oetry and the work of figures like Lorca alongside essays and poems which a= lso consider the function of the rejected knowledge that fuels the mythopoe= tic revolution (Gnostic texts, alchemical treatises, ritual chant and song)= and the inherent politics of re-opening a dialogue with the =93Other,=94 t= he performance spaces of the deep image group hinge upon participation and = conversation to further the opening of the poetic field, towards Duncan=92s= =93symposium of the whole.=94 However, Bly and Wright initiate a deep ima= ge poetics that joins the rank of Bernstein=92s =93official verse culture.= =94 Bly and Wright use their misreading of deep image poetry to carve out = a niche in the official (read: Norton) American poetry institution and to d= evelop careers as =93officially accredited=94 poets, thus re-affirming the = more egocentric =93hero-poet=94 model impertinent to Kelly, Rothenberg, and= Economou=92s sense of poetic community. > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500> From: jorispierre@MAC.COM> Subject= : Re: Deep Image (again)> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Rothenberg & = Kelly used it briefly =96 a few essays in Trobar, plus a > letter exchange = with Creeley and some other material. But neither of > them were into found= ing a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly > was somewhat close to th= em, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost > interest in formalizing thei= r first insights and got busy elsewhere, > Bly ran with the concept. I have= a graduate student working on a diss > around Deep Image right now, & I ho= pe he will come up with a > publishable book that would include all the ess= ays & correspondence > around DI =96 which I believe was an important momen= t in post-War US > poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection o= f essays, > ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to h= is > piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter > qu= otes Olson's response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : > "not i= mageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate > understanding of = the original Deep Image project =96 while the later > counterfeiters (Bly, = Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they > are all about imageS. =96 = Pierre> > On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote:> > > Thank you f= or that, Pierre.> >> > And just how does a term like =93Deep Image=94 come = to be re-used in > > such an> > unlikely context? And why?> >> > Surely Amm= ons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of > > their very> > o= wn? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story?> >> >= > > Diane di Prima> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400> = > From: Pierre Joris > > Subject: Re: Deep image, part= 11: question........> >> > Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge no= t influenced the L-=3D20> > poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is J= erome Rothenberg & =3D20> > Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by B= ly, Merwin etc) have > > =3D20> > however been important in different ways = for some of the L-poets. > > =3D96 =3D20=3D> >> > Pierre> >> > On Nov 2, 20= 07, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote:> >> >> i'm always writing in a rush. = i never addressed my "deep image vs. > >> =3D20> >> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin,= James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20> >> the most significant influe= nce over my way of looking at =3D20> >> poetry. But deep image poetry strik= es me as a largely intuitive =3D20> >> enterprise, a way of looking at the = major poets who came into =3D20> >> prominence during the sixties. I'm curi= ous: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20> >> influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what = about my favorite =3D20> >> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, a= s far as I know, has > >> =3D20=3D> >> >> never been lumped into any partic= ular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20> >> influenced Language poets?> >>> >> _= _________________________________________________> >> Do You Yahoo!?> >> Ti= red of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around> >> http://mai= l.yahoo.com> >> > _________________________________________________________= __> >> > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> > _________= __________________________________________________> > Pierre Joris> > 244 E= lm Street> > Albany NY 12202> > h: 518 426 0433> > c: 518 225 7123> > o: 51= 8 442 40 71> > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> > email: joris@albany.edu= > > http://pierrejoris.com> > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> > = ____________________________________________________________> > ___________= ________________________________________________> > The poet: always in par= tibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> ___________________________________________= ________________> Pierre Joris> 244 Elm Street> Albany NY 12202> h: 518 426= 0433> c: 518 225 7123> o: 518 442 40 71> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10= > email: joris@albany.edu> http://pierrejoris.com> Nomadics blog: http://pj= oris.blogspot.com> ________________________________________________________= ____ _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 12:32:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Subject: NOetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have subscribed to the poetics listserv for over a month, and find myself confused...The discussions of poetry are speckled with largely unrelated, though interesting material...C'est vrai? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:34:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" without having to say they developed this just because they knew that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton Anthology? Peter Monaco wrote: A cursory glance of most poetry anthologies, as well as the various histories of Modern American poetry that have been published since the 1960’s posit Bly as being the deep image “school’s” leading poet and theorist. With the exception of some initial interactions between Bly and Rothenberg, there is little in Bly’s work to suggest that he fully grasped the core group’s attempt at conceptualizing deep image poetics. The deep image poetics associated with Bly, in fact, can either be considered a misreading of Rothenberg and Kelly’s statements, or indeed a serious divergence down another path. For Bly, a kind of solitude is necessary in deep image poetics. Although Kelly and Rothenberg allude to energy and movement in relation to the poetic image in their conception of the deep image, Bly omits the participatory aspect of the image. Bly, the hero-poet, descends to the depths of the unconscious and performs an act of recovery and articulation for the reader, as opposed to the demand for participation in the composition of the poetic space that Kelly, Rothenberg, Owens, and Schwerner demand in their own work. For all of the paths Bly’s deep image poetics attempts to reveal in the on-going struggle to re-connect humans to the cosmological world, the main thrust of his poetics relies instead on “plugging” the image into a pre-existing mythological system based much more firmly on Jung’s theory of the archetype and the collective unconscious (see Bly’s _Iron John_). In fact, the casual way in which some dismiss the deep image as a pedestrian deployment of Jungian archetypal psychology and the latent structuralism of anthropologists like Levi-Strauss, can be directly attributed to Bly’s misreading. Bly and Wright (Bly’s “co-conspirator”) neglect the community-based origins of deep image poetics. Publications like Kelly and Economou’s Trobar and the various poetry readings that the core group held imply that at the foundation of deep image poetics is the concept that each of these spaces constitutes a site of resistance to the absorption of Modern American poetry into the academy. Similarly, each of these spaces opens up an arena for on-going conversations among poets and text, broadly defined. By placing translations of pre-modern, esoteric, troubadour, as well as Surrealist poetry and the work of figures like Lorca alongside essays and poems which also consider the function of the rejected knowledge that fuels the mythopoetic revolution (Gnostic texts, alchemical treatises, ritual chant and song) and the inherent politics of re-opening a dialogue with the “Other,” the performance spaces of the deep image group hinge upon participation and conversation to further the opening of the poetic field, towards Duncan’s “symposium of the whole.” However, Bly and Wright initiate a deep image poetics that joins the rank of Bernstein’s “official verse culture.” Bly and Wright use their misreading of deep image poetry to carve out a niche in the official (read: Norton) American poetry institution and to develop careers as “officially accredited” poets, thus re-affirming the more egocentric “hero-poet” model impertinent to Kelly, Rothenberg, and Economou’s sense of poetic community. > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500> From: jorispierre@MAC.COM> Subject: Re: Deep Image (again)> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Rothenberg & Kelly used it briefly – a few essays in Trobar, plus a > letter exchange with Creeley and some other material. But neither of > them were into founding a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly > was somewhat close to them, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost > interest in formalizing their first insights and got busy elsewhere, > Bly ran with the concept. I have a graduate student working on a diss > around Deep Image right now, & I hope he will come up with a > publishable book that would include all the essays & correspondence > around DI – which I believe was an important moment in post-War US > poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection of essays, > ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to his > piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter > quotes Olson's response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : > "not imageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate > understanding of the original Deep Image project – while the later > counterfeiters (Bly, Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they > are all about imageS. – Pierre> > On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote:> > > Thank you for that, Pierre.> >> > And just how does a term like “Deep Image” come to be re-used in > > such an> > unlikely context? And why?> >> > Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of > > their very> > own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story?> >> >> > Diane di Prima> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400> > From: Pierre Joris > > Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........> >> > Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20> > poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20> > Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have > > =20> > however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. > > =96 =20=> >> > Pierre> >> > On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote:> >> >> i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. > >> =20> >> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20> >> the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20> >> poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20> >> enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20> >> prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20> >> influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20> >> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has > >> =20=> >> >> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =20> >> influenced Language poets?> >>> >> __________________________________________________> >> Do You Yahoo!?> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around> >> http://mail.yahoo.com> >> > ___________________________________________________________> >> > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> > ___________________________________________________________> > Pierre Joris> > 244 Elm Street> > Albany NY 12202> > h: 518 426 0433> > c: 518 225 7123> > o: 518 442 40 71> > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> > email: joris@albany.edu> > http://pierrejoris.com> > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> > ____________________________________________________________> > ___________________________________________________________> > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> ___________________________________________________________> Pierre Joris> 244 Elm Street> Albany NY 12202> h: 518 426 0433> c: 518 225 7123> o: 518 442 40 71> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> email: joris@albany.edu> http://pierrejoris.com> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> ____________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:03:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep Image & performance announcement In-Reply-To: <2146.72.224.54.154.1194247281.squirrel@webmail.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Adam, Pete, thanks for reminding me & the list of those ancient (in terms of web =20 time) mails & in pointing to the RK & JR essays, and for giving a =20 succinct analysis of DI. Let me also announce a forthcoming gig for those in the Albany/Troy =20 area: SAX SOUP POETRY & VOICE Saturday, November 10 Sanctuary For Independent Media 3361, 6th Avenue Troy, NY $10 A Harvest Celebration with multimedia artist Nicole Peyrafitte, saxophonist Joe Giardullo & poet Pierre Joris. The trio will celebrate, harvest, and gather together non linear =20 momentum through their music, poetry, voice, visuals and yes, a soup! =20= Nicole, who recently moved to Brooklyn, will cook an "Inner-State" =20 soup that will be shared with the audience. On Nov 5, 2007, at 2:21 AM, Adam Morey wrote: > Information about Rothenberg & Kelly's conception of Deep Image can be > found in Daniel Kane's "All Poet's Welcome" which includes an =20 > interchange > between Joris and Kane on this list. In his response Pierre mentions =20= > these > same essays of Kelly's and the correspondence with Creeley. As well, =20= > he > mentions his search for a graduate student to write a dissertation =20= > on the > subject, a search which came to an end a number of years ago. > > Kelly's essay "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" can be found here: > > = http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind9707&L=3DPOETICS&P=3DR= 28032&D=3D1&I=3D-3 > > and the original Kane/Joris interaction on the poetics list can be =20 > found > here: > > = http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind9812&L=3DPOETICS&D=3D1= &O=3DD&I=3D-3&P=3D41859 > > Cheers! > > Adam > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Finding the measure is finding the > specific music of the hour, > the synchronous > consequence of the motion of the whole world. > > --- Robert Kelly > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > >> Rothenberg & Kelly used it briefly =96 a few essays in Trobar, plus a >> letter exchange with Creeley and some other material. But neither of >> them were into founding a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly >> was somewhat close to them, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost >> interest in formalizing their first insights and got busy elsewhere, >> Bly ran with the concept. I have a graduate student working on a =20 >> diss >> around Deep Image right now, & I hope he will come up with a >> publishable book that would include all the essays & correspondence >> around DI =96 which I believe was an important moment in post-War US >> poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection of essays, >> ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to his >> piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter >> quotes Olson's response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : >> "not imageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate >> understanding of the original Deep Image project =96 while the later >> counterfeiters (Bly, Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they >> are all about imageS. =96 Pierre >> >> On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote: >> >>> Thank you for that, Pierre. >>> >>> And just how does a term like =93Deep Image=94 come to be re-used in >>> such an >>> unlikely context? And why? >>> >>> Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of >>> their very >>> own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the =20 >>> story? >>> >>> >>> Diane di Prima >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 >>> From: Pierre Joris >>> Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ >>> >>> Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20= >>> =3D20 >>> poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20= >>> =3D20 >>> Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have >>> =3D20 >>> however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. >>> =3D96 =3D20=3D >>> >>> Pierre >>> >>> On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: >>> >>>> i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. >>>> =3D20 >>>> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20= >>>> =3D20 >>>> the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 >>>> poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20= >>>> =3D20 >>>> enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 >>>> prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20= >>>> influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 >>>> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has >>>> =3D20=3D >>> >>>> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 >>>> influenced Language poets? >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________ >>>> Do You Yahoo!? >>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> >>> The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Pierre Joris >>> 244 Elm Street >>> Albany NY 12202 >>> h: 518 426 0433 >>> c: 518 225 7123 >>> o: 518 442 40 71 >>> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >>> email: joris@albany.edu >>> http://pierrejoris.com >>> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >>> ____________________________________________________________ >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> >> The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Pierre Joris >> 244 Elm Street >> Albany NY 12202 >> h: 518 426 0433 >> c: 518 225 7123 >> o: 518 442 40 71 >> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >> email: joris@albany.edu >> http://pierrejoris.com >> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >> ____________________________________________________________ >> ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 04:10:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: <472E2EAE.3040605@myuw.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit prose is what you write when you think you might be understood; poetry, well, you draw your own conclusions. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:22:10 -0500 Reply-To: tyrone williams Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tyrone williams Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well put--and this is my understanding of the trajectories of "deep image" = poetics... Tyrone Williams -----Original Message----- >From: Peter Monaco >Sent: Nov 4, 2007 2:34 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) > >=20 >=20 >A cursory glance of most poetry anthologies, as well as the various histor= ies of Modern American poetry that have been published since the 1960=E2=80= =99s posit Bly as being the deep image =E2=80=9Cschool=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D l= eading poet and theorist. With the exception of some initial interactions = between Bly and Rothenberg, there is little in Bly=E2=80=99s work to sugges= t that he fully grasped the core group=E2=80=99s attempt at conceptualizing= deep image poetics. The deep image poetics associated with Bly, in fact, = can either be considered a misreading of Rothenberg and Kelly=E2=80=99s sta= tements, or indeed a serious divergence down another path. For Bly, a kind = of solitude is necessary in deep image poetics. Although Kelly and Rothenb= erg allude to energy and movement in relation to the poetic image in their = conception of the deep image, Bly omits the participatory aspect of the ima= ge. Bly, the hero-poet, descends to the depths of the unconscious and perf= orms an act of recovery and articulation for the reader, as opposed to the = demand for participation in the composition of the poetic space that Kelly,= Rothenberg, Owens, and Schwerner demand in their own work. For all of the= paths Bly=E2=80=99s deep image poetics attempts to reveal in the on-going = struggle to re-connect humans to the cosmological world, the main thrust of= his poetics relies instead on =E2=80=9Cplugging=E2=80=9D the image into a = pre-existing mythological system based much more firmly on Jung=E2=80=99s t= heory of the archetype and the collective unconscious (see Bly=E2=80=99s _I= ron John_). In fact, the casual way in which some dismiss the deep image a= s a pedestrian deployment of Jungian archetypal psychology and the latent s= tructuralism of anthropologists like Levi-Strauss, can be directly attribut= ed to Bly=E2=80=99s misreading. > =20 >Bly and Wright (Bly=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cco-conspirator=E2=80=9D) neglect th= e community-based origins of deep image poetics. Publications like Kelly a= nd Economou=E2=80=99s Trobar and the various poetry readings that the core = group held imply that at the foundation of deep image poetics is the concep= t that each of these spaces constitutes a site of resistance to the absorpt= ion of Modern American poetry into the academy. Similarly, each of these s= paces opens up an arena for on-going conversations among poets and text, br= oadly defined. By placing translations of pre-modern, esoteric, troubadour= , as well as Surrealist poetry and the work of figures like Lorca alongside= essays and poems which also consider the function of the rejected knowledg= e that fuels the mythopoetic revolution (Gnostic texts, alchemical treatise= s, ritual chant and song) and the inherent politics of re-opening a dialogu= e with the =E2=80=9COther,=E2=80=9D the performance spaces of the deep imag= e group hinge upon participation and conversation to further the opening of= the poetic field, towards Duncan=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Csymposium of the whole= .=E2=80=9D However, Bly and Wright initiate a deep image poetics that join= s the rank of Bernstein=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cofficial verse culture.=E2=80=9D= Bly and Wright use their misreading of deep image poetry to carve out a n= iche in the official (read: Norton) American poetry institution and to deve= lop careers as =E2=80=9Cofficially accredited=E2=80=9D poets, thus re-affir= ming the more egocentric =E2=80=9Chero-poet=E2=80=9D model impertinent to K= elly, Rothenberg, and Economou=E2=80=99s sense of poetic community. > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500> From: jorispierre@MAC.COM> Subjec= t: Re: Deep Image (again)> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Rothenberg &= Kelly used it briefly =E2=80=93 a few essays in Trobar, plus a > letter ex= change with Creeley and some other material. But neither of > them were int= o founding a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly > was somewhat clos= e to them, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost > interest in formalizi= ng their first insights and got busy elsewhere, > Bly ran with the concept.= I have a graduate student working on a diss > around Deep Image right now,= & I hope he will come up with a > publishable book that would include all = the essays & correspondence > around DI =E2=80=93 which I believe was an im= portant moment in post-War US > poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new= collection of essays, > ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a = foornote to his > piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which th= e latter > quotes Olson's response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Imag= e" : > "not imageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate > unde= rstanding of the original Deep Image project =E2=80=93 while the later > co= unterfeiters (Bly, Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they > are all= about imageS. =E2=80=93 Pierre> > On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrim= a wrote:> > > Thank you for that, Pierre.> >> > And just how does a term li= ke =E2=80=9CDeep Image=E2=80=9D come to be re-used in > > such an> > unlike= ly context? And why?> >> > Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some sna= ppy new phrase of > > their very> > own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt= to bury, to rewrite the story?> >> >> > Diane di Prima> >> >> >> >> >> > D= ate: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400> > From: Pierre Joris > > Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........> >> > Ammons, Me= rwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20> > poets. The= original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20> > Robert Kel= ly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have > > =3D20> > howe= ver been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. > > =3D96 =3D= 20=3D> >> > Pierre> >> > On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote:>= >> >> i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. >= >> =3D20> >> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had = =3D20> >> the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20> >= > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20> >>= enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20> >> pr= ominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20> >> infl= uence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20> >> iconoclast= , A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has > >> =3D20=3D> >>= >> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20> >>= influenced Language poets?> >>> >> _______________________________________= ___________> >> Do You Yahoo!?> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best = spam protection around> >> http://mail.yahoo.com> >> > ____________________= _______________________________________> >> > The poet: always in partibus = infidelium -- Paul Celan> > _______________________________________________= ____________> > Pierre Joris> > 244 Elm Street> > Albany NY 12202> > h: 518= 426 0433> > c: 518 225 7123> > o: 518 442 40 71> > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 7= 5 43 57 10> > email: joris@albany.edu> > http://pierrejoris.com> > Nomadics= blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> > ______________________________________= ______________________> > _________________________________________________= __________> > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> ______= _____________________________________________________> Pierre Joris> 244 El= m Street> Albany NY 12202> h: 518 426 0433> c: 518 225 7123> o: 518 442 40 = 71> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> email: joris@albany.edu> http://pier= rejoris.com> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> ___________________= _________________________________________ >_________________________________________________________________ >Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! >http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus Tyrone Williams ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:25:10 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: what do you think of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to = distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from the = effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to advantage. Wystan ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of tomas weber Sent: Sun 4/11/2007 6:31 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: what do you think of poetry - using words to *create* a meaning *for* an audience prose - using words to *convey *a meaning *to* an audience -- "They taught me the names of the days and I marvelled at there being so = few and flourished my little fists, crying out for more." - S. B. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:34:08 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt to redraw them (if only as an experiment). For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to > distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from the > effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to advantage. > Wystan > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:23:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: dbCinema images In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Very beautiful Jim, I love the chalk-like textures and the dim glimpses of text. - Peter Ciccariello http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ On 11/4/07, Jim Andrews wrote: > > some new images from dbCinema: > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/sunset > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/saint > > the first series is made of pictures dbcinema downloaded via a query of > 'beautiful sunset'. > > the second series is made of pictures dbcinema downloaded via a query of > 'silvia saint'. > > the series i've done so far are collected at > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/meditations.htm . all these images are > screenshots > from movies that dbCinema generated. they're screenshots of movies taken > while the movies play. dbCinema itself (the software) is not online yet. > > the basic idea of dbCinema is to create a new form of cinema. interactive, > net-dependent, painterly cinema that combines the computer's well-known > poetential concerning visual abstraction with the representational > possibilities posed by being able to type in anything and get relevant > images back (via google and yahoo image search). dbCinema is a work of > generative software art. it is cinema for those who like interactive work, > visual art, and being able to shape cinema like a potter shapes clay on > the > gyre. > > the new series (sunset and saint) are quite abstract, but dbCinema > 'brushes' > can be configured to reveal as much of the downloaded images as you like > (as > in the less abstract leftwich, huth, and kandinsky series at > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/meditations.htm ). > > ja > http://vispo.com > -- NEW RELEASE UNCOMMON VISION - The Art of Peter Ciccariello http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ 66 pp. 42 color plates. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:25:25 -0500 Reply-To: tyrone williams Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tyrone williams Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry, I agree and almost added that to my post--divergence as a matter of a "puri= st" v. "non-purist" poetics... Tyrone Williams -----Original Message----- >From: Barry Schwabsky >Sent: Nov 5, 2007 6:34 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) > >I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for accusa= tions of careerism and the like in order to attribute motivations to poets = who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to say that Bly and co. had an im= poverished notion of "deep image" without having to say they developed this= just because they knew that such a concept would be the key to getting int= o the Norton Anthology?=20 > >Peter Monaco wrote: =20 > >A cursory glance of most poetry anthologies, as well as the various histor= ies of Modern American poetry that have been published since the 1960=C2=92= s posit Bly as being the deep image =C2=93school=C2=92s=C2=94 leading poet = and theorist. With the exception of some initial interactions between Bly a= nd Rothenberg, there is little in Bly=C2=92s work to suggest that he fully = grasped the core group=C2=92s attempt at conceptualizing deep image poetics= . The deep image poetics associated with Bly, in fact, can either be consid= ered a misreading of Rothenberg and Kelly=C2=92s statements, or indeed a se= rious divergence down another path. For Bly, a kind of solitude is necessar= y in deep image poetics. Although Kelly and Rothenberg allude to energy and= movement in relation to the poetic image in their conception of the deep i= mage, Bly omits the participatory aspect of the image. Bly, the hero-poet, = descends to the depths of the unconscious and performs an act of recovery a= nd articulation for the reader, as opposed to the > demand for participation in the composition of the poetic space that Kell= y, Rothenberg, Owens, and Schwerner demand in their own work. For all of th= e paths Bly=C2=92s deep image poetics attempts to reveal in the on-going st= ruggle to re-connect humans to the cosmological world, the main thrust of h= is poetics relies instead on =C2=93plugging=C2=94 the image into a pre-exis= ting mythological system based much more firmly on Jung=C2=92s theory of th= e archetype and the collective unconscious (see Bly=C2=92s _Iron John_). In= fact, the casual way in which some dismiss the deep image as a pedestrian = deployment of Jungian archetypal psychology and the latent structuralism of= anthropologists like Levi-Strauss, can be directly attributed to Bly=C2=92= s misreading. > >Bly and Wright (Bly=C2=92s =C2=93co-conspirator=C2=94) neglect the communi= ty-based origins of deep image poetics. Publications like Kelly and Economo= u=C2=92s Trobar and the various poetry readings that the core group held im= ply that at the foundation of deep image poetics is the concept that each o= f these spaces constitutes a site of resistance to the absorption of Modern= American poetry into the academy. Similarly, each of these spaces opens up= an arena for on-going conversations among poets and text, broadly defined.= By placing translations of pre-modern, esoteric, troubadour, as well as Su= rrealist poetry and the work of figures like Lorca alongside essays and poe= ms which also consider the function of the rejected knowledge that fuels th= e mythopoetic revolution (Gnostic texts, alchemical treatises, ritual chant= and song) and the inherent politics of re-opening a dialogue with the =C2= =93Other,=C2=94 the performance spaces of the deep image group hinge upon p= articipation and conversation to further the > opening of the poetic field, towards Duncan=C2=92s =C2=93symposium of the= whole.=C2=94 However, Bly and Wright initiate a deep image poetics that jo= ins the rank of Bernstein=C2=92s =C2=93official verse culture.=C2=94 Bly an= d Wright use their misreading of deep image poetry to carve out a niche in = the official (read: Norton) American poetry institution and to develop care= ers as =C2=93officially accredited=C2=94 poets, thus re-affirming the more = egocentric =C2=93hero-poet=C2=94 model impertinent to Kelly, Rothenberg, an= d Economou=C2=92s sense of poetic community. >> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500> From: jorispierre@MAC.COM> Subject= : Re: Deep Image (again)> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Rothenberg & = Kelly used it briefly =C2=96 a few essays in Trobar, plus a > letter exchan= ge with Creeley and some other material. But neither of > them were into fo= unding a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly > was somewhat close to= them, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost > interest in formalizing t= heir first insights and got busy elsewhere, > Bly ran with the concept. I h= ave a graduate student working on a diss > around Deep Image right now, & I= hope he will come up with a > publishable book that would include all the = essays & correspondence > around DI =C2=96 which I believe was an important= moment in post-War US > poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collec= tion of essays, > ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornot= e to his > piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latte= r > quotes Olson's > response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : > "not imageS but i= mage." Which shows I believe a very accurate > understanding of the origina= l Deep Image project =C2=96 while the later > counterfeiters (Bly, Merwin e= tc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they > are all about imageS. =C2=96 Pierr= e> > On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote:> > > Thank you for th= at, Pierre.> >> > And just how does a term like =C2=93Deep Image=C2=94 come= to be re-used in > > such an> > unlikely context? And why?> >> > Surely Am= mons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of > > their very> > = own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story?> >> = >> > Diane di Prima> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400>= > From: Pierre Joris > > Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question.......= .> >> > Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-= =3D20> > poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & = =3D20> > Robert Kelly (before the name > got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have > > =3D20> > however been important= in different ways for some of the L-poets. > > =3D96 =3D20=3D> >> > Pierre= > >> > On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote:> >> >> i'm always = writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. > >> =3D20> >> LANG= UAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20> >> the most= significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20> >> poetry. But deep= image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20> >> enterprise, a way= of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20> >> prominence during th= e sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20> >> influence in the LANGU= AGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20> >> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a si= ngular voice who, as far as I know, has > >> =3D20=3D> >> >> never been lum= ped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20> >> influenced Langua= ge poets?> >>> >> __________________________________________________> >> Do= You Yahoo!?> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! > Mail has the best spam protection around> >> http://mail.yahoo.com> >> > = ___________________________________________________________> >> > The poet:= always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> > ___________________________= ________________________________> > Pierre Joris> > 244 Elm Street> > Alban= y NY 12202> > h: 518 426 0433> > c: 518 225 7123> > o: 518 442 40 71> > Eur= o cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> > email: joris@albany.edu> > http://pierrej= oris.com> > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> > __________________= __________________________________________> > _____________________________= ______________________________> > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -= - Paul Celan> ___________________________________________________________> = Pierre Joris> 244 Elm Street> Albany NY 12202> h: 518 426 0433> c: 518 225 = 7123> o: 518 442 40 71> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> email: joris@alb= any.edu> http://pierrejoris.com> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> > ____________________________________________________________ >_________________________________________________________________ >Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! >http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus Tyrone Williams ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:07:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Deep Image (again) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline dear steve, just for the record: ammons' "tape," published in 1994, could in no way have "anticipate[d] the Language poetics," which was originally formulated in the 1970s, became contested in wider literary circles in the 1980s and was essentially over (in terms of group identifications and energies) by the 1990s (though of course many in the original moment continue to write and publish today). to the extent that the ammons poem uses the adding machine tape as a formal constraint, it could be more plausibly argued that language poetics and/or oulipo anticipated the ammons poem. allbests, tom orange ----- Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:02:27 -0800 From: steve russell Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) I posted about "deep image." Merwin & J Wright have been lumped in that school. I spoke of Ammons as an iconoclast, belonging to no school. I mentioned in one of my post my fondness for "Tape for the Turning of the Year" by Ammons, a poem that seems to me to anticipate the Language poetics. I may be wrong about "the story." I'm usually thinking out loud when I post. I'm anything, but not infallible. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:16:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Steensen,Sasha" Subject: Lerner, Coultas, Rankine e-mail addresses In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 I am looking for e-mail addresses for the following poets: Ben Lerner, Brenda Coultas, and Claudia Rankine. Please backchannel. Thanks, Sasha Steensen On 11/4/07 11:27 PM, "POETICS automatic digest system" wrote: There are 21 messages totalling 1380 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment (4) 2. Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester (2) 3. sidewalk (anti-war) blog news 4. Reading in Seattle, Sat Nov 10: Carletta Wilson & Jim Andrews 5. Save the Date - Evening of Sat Nov 17 6. A perfect day in Maine 7. It's Me 8. what do you think of 9. Deep Image (again) (6) 10. SHAMPOO 31 11. NEW CONTACT INFO: FULCRUM HAS MOVED! 12. Rick Hilles and Jo McDougall / Columbia College Chicago / November 14 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 16:54:12 -0700 From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment That's a fair point. I did think about adding to the entry on Clarke, but realized that the only thing I could do was go into my library and reprint information from other people's research, which is certainly what most of the entries on wikipedia consist of, hopefully with proper credit. That didn't excite me much, and didn't seem all that valuable to the public. I think if I had some original research on Clarke or someone else, then I would feel obliged to put that up. But, in the spirit of someone who still believes in the site, I will take up your challenge and go beef up the entry, instead of complaining. Check back if you're interes As far as the racism charge (I think I said "race bias"), I don't mean racism as the attitude of any individual or group, especially given the editorial configuration of wikipedia. It just seems obvious to me that the weighting of information on wikipedia reflects the makeup of its contributors. One other thing Nature found out is that wikipedia is actually better than Encyclopedia Brittanica on science and technology, worse on humanities. I'm inclined to infer that there are, then, more science and tech savvy contributors than lit-savvy ones. Perhaps it is inaccurate to also make the inference that, among those writing entries on American jazz musicians, more of them are white than black. The only criticism I'd make beyond that is, if I sat down and wrote a very long entry on Louis Bellson that repeated the claim "the greatest drummer in the world", I'd feel a little guilty about not going and giving credit to the guys whose shoulders Bellson sat on (and certainly that includes Klook, Papa Jo Jones and also Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich). Dillon On Nov 3, 2007, at 8:05 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > So Louis Bellson has one big fan who takes the trouble to > contribute to Wikipedia and Klook hasn't found his yet so you > attribute it to racism. If you have some knowledge of the subject, > why don't you take the time to expand the entry? Or at least > contribute to the discussion behind the Clarke article? > > Dillon Westbrook wrote: I'll chime in and > say what I said to my students on the wikipedia > subject. Nature did a fairly exhaustive comparison of Wikipedia and > Encyclopedia Britannica (sorry, can't afford the nature subscription > to link to that study, but an intrepid person could probably dig it > up). The result was that the two were dead even, which says one thing > pretty clearly- encyclopedias are what they are, curiosity saters and > occasional beacons to better sources, but not research material. > Personally, I commend wikipedia for how good it is on current events, > its "news worthy" entries on recent events are occasionally better > than AP. > > I've found decent stuff on poets like Robert Duncan or H.D., scant > little on some more recent (curious to go check out the entry on > Susan Howe though). Even more offensive to me were entries on jazz > musicians, particularly drummers- there was a large scrolling page > for Louis Bellson and barely a paragraph for Kenny Clarke, the latter > being, with no disrespect to Louis, appreciably more important to the > history of the music and his instrument. The expression of race bias > was fairly obvious to me. Might go back and check if the phenomenon > repeats itself in literature (how does Langston Hughes' page compare > to Carl Sandburg's?) > > Dillon > > On Nov 2, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Christina E Lovin wrote: > >> Apparently, the interjected notes about Li-Young have been >> removed. But >> they were there two days ago...and it was pretty disgusting to see >> what >> someone could so easily add to an entry. >> >> Sorry. I should have checked before sending out my former note. >> >> I still stand by my prohibition of Wikipedia for my students' >> research. I >> do understand how it might be helpful to have students correct or add >> information. >> >> Christina >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Christina E Lovin >> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:16 PM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment >> >> I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry for >> Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi >> (plural of >> doofus) out there. >> >> I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my students, I >> absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. >> >> I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young >> Lee >> entry? >> >> Christina >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >> Behalf Of mIEKAL aND >> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment >> >> (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous >> profs out there, especially since a large majority of the innovative >> poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh >> blood. ~mIEKAL) >> >> Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment >> By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer >> >> http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html >> >> (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a >> reference for term papers. >> >> Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to >> turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them >> either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major edit >> on an existing one. >> >> The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for >> her class. >> >> "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would think, >> "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could fill >> this in?" >> >> Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, and >> the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily >> concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of >> sources students cite has deteriorated. >> >> For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," and >> students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad >> research paper. >> >> Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried >> professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the standards >> set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy >> and neutral tone, Groom said. >> >> The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real world >> of peer-reviewed research. >> >> Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some students >> caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college >> students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical essay. >> >> "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous Wikipedia >> editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference >> between good secondary research and the average college paper. >> >> "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this is >> the truth and the way,'" she said. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 17:16:20 -0700 From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester SELF-IMMOLATION: A voluntary sacrifice or denial of oneself, as for an ideal or another person. Most famously demonstrated by Buddhist monk Thich Quang Duc on June 11, 1963 in Vietnam. Most recently demonstrated by musician Malachi Ritscher in Chicago on November 3, 2006 as a protest against the Iraq war. One year ago, Malachi set himself on fire next to the Kennedy Expressway during morning rush hour. He left a statement and obituary on his website. http://www.savagesound.com/gallery99.htm As the Iraq War moves towards year 5, I am taking some time to think about Malachi. I am wondering how we find new ways to express our sadness, rage, and disgust. When does the turning point come? When is it enough? Onwards, Jennifer Karmin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:22:31 -1000 From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: sidewalk (anti-war) blog news http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=3D15490=3De0c18=3D654553661 This weekend brings more signs on the windward side of O`ahu. One was torn down overnight, but will be recycled. That one and the others can be viewed via the facebook album page. Simply click to enlarge photos and read their stories. aloha, the Sidewalk Blogger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 20:40:23 -0500 From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment well you want to edit it for me i'll givre you the info On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:47:42 +0000 Barry Schwabsky writes: > At the top of the page you will see four tabs: article, discussion, > edit this page, and history. Look around in there and you'll see > what's what. > However, it's considered very, very bad form to try and edit a > page that concerns you. > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > i have aq lousy entry on wikipedia don't know who put it there > it needs adding to and subtracting from tho it's very short to begin > with > > how do i change it? > i used wikipedia to write a short article on anthony braxton it > helped > immensely > > On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 Christina E Lovin > writes: > > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry > > for > > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi > > (plural of > > doofus) out there. > > > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my > students, > > I > > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young > > > Lee > > entry? > > > > Christina > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the > innovative > > > > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > > > > > reference for term papers. > > > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > > > > > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major > edit > > > > on an existing one. > > > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > > > > > her class. > > > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would > think, > > > > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could > fill > > > > this in?" > > > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, > and > > > > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," > and > > > > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > > research paper. > > > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the > > standards > > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > > > > > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real > world > > > > of peer-reviewed research. > > > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some > > students > > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical > essay. > > > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous > > Wikipedia > > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this > is > > > > the truth and the way,'" she said. > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:13:15 -0700 From: Jim Andrews Subject: Reading in Seattle, Sat Nov 10: Carletta Wilson & Jim Andrews My friend Joe Keppler has a show up of steel sculpture in Seattle, so I'm going south to see the show. He's a terrific poet, sculptor, sound artist, photographer, and performer. His steel sculptures are very interesting and often provocatively literary. Not concrete but steel. Meeting Joe back in the 80's was a turning point in my life; Joe and some other artists in Seattle I met back then have a strong intermedial, polyartistic side to their literary work that makes Seattle a special place of literary synthesis. On Saturday Nov 10 I'll be doing a reading, as will Carletta Wilson, at Joe's show of steel sculpture. I hope you can make it. Po Et Ry Reading @ FSL /GALLERY 619 N. 35th, Suite 100, FREMONT in the cul-de-sac north of the PCC parking entrance 206-545-6974 Nov 10, 8 pm Carletta Wilson & Jim Andrews accompanied with visual art by Joe Keppler doors open 6pm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:16:22 -0400 From: Patrick Herron Subject: Save the Date - Evening of Sat Nov 17 Howdy friends - I'm writing you to let you know that the evening of Saturday November 17 I will be hosting a poetry reading at my home in Chapel Hill NC (map: http://tinyurl.com/2ws8ob) to which you are all invited. Readers? Drum roll, please... Murat Nemet-Nejat (Hoboken, NJ) http://google.com/search?q=3Dmurat+nemet-nejat Standard Schaefer (San Francisco, CA) http://google.com/search?q=3Dstandard+schaefer Rodrigo Garcia Lopes (Chapel Hill, NC) http://google.com/search?q=3Drodrigo+garcia+lopes Allyssa Wolf (Raleigh, NC) http://google.com/search?q=3Dallyssa+wolf I'm also hoping to screen the film _Satori Uso_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUFkkNV77h28). I will probably open my door to everyone around 9PM and start readings around 10 or so. More details are to follow soon and what is listed here is SUBJECT TO CHANGE. Consider this a save-the-date notice. And don't hesitate to email me should you have any questions for me. Patrick -- Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ph/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 23:09:47 -0400 From: Alan Sondheim Subject: A perfect day in Maine A perfect day in Maine On the beach I walk and think, I hate these avatars of mine, they don't do anything worthwhile at this point. It's too easy to make interesting images and my brain is emptied out. Buddhist aggregates would fill it, but then there's the problem they might end up annihilated, who wants empti- ness when the replete amazes. I learn that if sound and sight are discon- nected from production, why should I bother with meaning? Who wants to just listen and watch, when everyone has heard and seen everything? Why are there many rather than one? The ultimate koan - surely the number is random, surely there would be meaningless degree? Or not? Mind won't say. I can't even say rock, snail, woman, water. The most difficult lesson: Some things have no causes at all. http://www.asondheim.org/image1.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/image2.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:13:39 -0500 From: Jesse Crockett Subject: It's Me WW91IG1lZXQgc29tZW9uZSB3aG8gZW5qb3lzIG1ha2luZyBlbmVtaWVzLgpWZXJ5IHNvb24sIHl= v dSB0ZXJyaWZ5IHRoaXMgcGVyc29uLCB0aGlzIGdob3N0LgpJdCB3YXMgbmV2ZXIgc28gbmVhciB= 0 aGF0IGl0IGNvdWxkIGhhdmUgeW91CgpPdXRyaWdodC4gVGhlc2UgcGVvcGxlIGFyZSBhZnJhaWQ= g b2YgdXMsIGFzIG9mIGZpcmUsClRoZXNlIGdob3N0cy4gVGhleSd2ZSBnb25lIG91dCBiZXlvbmQ= g dGhlIHN0YXJzLApQYXN0IHRoZSBsb3N0IGFydHMsIGFuZCBoYXZpbmcgdGhlbSBsb3N0LCBoYXZ= l CgpUaGVpciBvd24gYXJ0cyBsb3N0LiBJIHdhcyBhbW9uZyB0aGVtIGJ5IHRoZSByaXZlciwKQWx= v bmcgdGhlbSBhdCB0aGUgY3VyYiwgYW5kIGluIHRoZSBzdHJlZXQsIGFuZCB0aGVuCkFsc28gaW4= g dGhlIHRydW5rcyBvZiB0aGVpciBjYXJzLCBzYXlpbmcg4oCUIGFzIHZhbGV0LAoKYXMgdmFsZXQ= g 4oCUIHNheWluZyBzb21ldGhpbmcgYmVhdXRpZnVsLCBpbnRvbGVyYWJseSwgdG8KUHJvdmUgdGh= h dCB0aGV5IGV4aXN0IG5vdCBiZXR3ZWVuLCBidXQgYmVmb3JlLCB0aGUgc3RhcnMuCg=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:13:05 +0800 From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: what do you think of I think it sounds nice but isn't very meaningful, which is probably necessary in seeking for a general definition that distinguishes poetry fro= m prose. However, even by that standard, the role of the audience is simply too passive here. Elizabeth Kate Switaj http://www.elizabethkateswitaj.net/ On 11/4/07, tomas weber wrote: > > poetry - using words to *create* a meaning *for* an audience > > prose - using words to *convey *a meaning *to* an audience > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 00:04:54 -0700 From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Deep Image (again) Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like =3DB3Deep Image=3DB2 come to be re-used in su= ch an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their ver= =3D y own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D3D20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D3D20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D3D20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D3D96 = =3D3D20=3D3D Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D3D2= 0 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D3D20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D3D20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D3D20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D3D20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D3D20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D3D20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D3D= 20=3D3D > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D3D20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) Rothenberg & Kelly used it briefly =3D96 a few essays in Trobar, plus a =3D= 20=3D letter exchange with Creeley and some other material. But neither of =3D20 them were into founding a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly =3D20 was somewhat close to them, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost =3D20 interest in formalizing their first insights and got busy elsewhere, =3D20 Bly ran with the concept. I have a graduate student working on a diss =3D2= 0=3D around Deep Image right now, & I hope he will come up with a =3D20 publishable book that would include all the essays & correspondence =3D20 around DI =3D96 which I believe was an important moment in post-War US =3D2= 0 poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection of essays, =3D20 ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to his =3D20 piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter =3D20 quotes Olson's response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : =3D20 "not imageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate =3D20 understanding of the original Deep Image project =3D96 while the later =3D2= 0 counterfeiters (Bly, Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they =3D20 are all about imageS. =3D96 Pierre On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote: > Thank you for that, Pierre. > > And just how does a term like =3D93Deep Image=3D94 come to be re-used in = =3D20=3D > such an > unlikely context? And why? > > Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of =3D20 > their very > own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? > > > Diane di Prima > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 > From: Pierre Joris > Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ > > Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D3D20 > poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D3D20 > Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D20= =3D > =3D3D20 > however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D20 > =3D3D96 =3D3D20=3D3D > > Pierre > > On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > >> i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D20= =3D >> =3D3D20 >> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D3D20 >> the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D3D20 >> poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D3D20 >> enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D3D20 >> prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D3D20 >> influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D3D20 >> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D2= 0=3D >> =3D3D20=3D3D > >> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D3D20 >> influenced Language poets? >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan > ___________________________________________________________ > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > ____________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:09:37 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment Ah, conspiracy! "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: well you want to edit it= for me i'll givre you the info On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:47:42 +0000 Barry Schwabsky writes: > At the top of the page you will see four tabs: article, discussion, > edit this page, and history. Look around in there and you'll see > what's what. > However, it's considered very, very bad form to try and edit a > page that concerns you. > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > i have aq lousy entry on wikipedia don't know who put it there > it needs adding to and subtracting from tho it's very short to begin > with > > how do i change it? > i used wikipedia to write a short article on anthony braxton it > helped > immensely > > On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:15:45 -0400 Christina E Lovin > writes: > > I recently had a non-poet friend direct me to the Wikipedia entry > > for > > Li-Young Lee. I wasn't shocked because I know there are doofi > > (plural of > > doofus) out there. > > > > I rest my case about Wikipedia and not only discourage my > students, > > I > > absolutely forbid them from using Wikipedia for research. > > > > I wonder if one Ms. Mintz students is responsible for the Li-Young > > > Lee > > entry? > > > > Christina > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:32 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > > > (this would be a very useful assignment for the more adventurous > > profs out there, especially since a large majority of the > innovative > > > > poetry & fiction entries really could use some attention & fresh > > blood. ~mIEKAL) > > > > Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment > > By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Technology Writer > > > > http://www.physorg.com/news113071167.html > > > > (AP) -- Some academics cringe when students turn to Wikipedia as a > > > > > reference for term papers. > > > > Instead of asking students in her environmental history course to > > turn in one big paper at the end of the semester, she requires them > > > > > either to write an original Wikipedia article or to do a major > edit > > > > on an existing one. > > > > The inspiration came to her as she prepared teaching materials for > > > > > her class. > > > > "I would find these things on Wikipedia," she said, and would > think, > > > > "Gosh, this is awfully thin here. I wonder if my students could > fill > > > > this in?" > > > > Wikipedia has been vilified as a petri dish for misinformation, > and > > > > the variable accuracy of its articles is a point Groom readily > > concedes. Since the advent of the Web, she said, the quality of > > sources students cite has deteriorated. > > > > For her students, the Wikipedia experiment was "transformative," > and > > > > students' writing online proved better than the average undergrad > > research paper. > > > > Knowing their work was headed for the Web, not just one harried > > professor's eyes, helped students reach higher - as did the > > standards > > set by the volunteer "Wikipedians" who police entries for accuracy > > > > > and neutral tone, Groom said. > > > > The exercise also gave students a taste of working in the real > world > > > > of peer-reviewed research. > > > > Most of the articles were well received, but Groom said some > > students > > caught heat from Wikipedia editors for doing exactly what college > > students are trained to do: write an argumentative, critical > essay. > > > > "Some people were a little rude," she said of the anonymous > > Wikipedia > > editors. Ultimately, she had to teach the students the difference > > between good secondary research and the average college paper. > > > > "You don't get to say that last little bit on, 'This is why this > is > > > > the truth and the way,'" she said. > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 14:24:24 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) I don't believe Ammons used that term or that it is normally applied to his= work. Robert Bly, Galway Kinnell, W.S. Merwin, and James Wright are names = I see associated with the term. I would think that Ammons' use of technical= vocabularies would be the most important of a number of reasons why Ammons= ' work might be anathema to Bly and his colleagues. Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like "Deep Image" come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their ver= y own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D96 =3D= 20=3D Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D20= =3D > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:02:27 -0800 From: steve russell Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) I posted about "deep image." Merwin & J Wright have been lumped in that sch= ool. I spoke of Ammons as an iconoclast, belonging to no school. I mentione= d in one of my post my fondness for "Tape for the Turning of the Year" by A= mmons, a poem that seems to me to anticipate the Language poetics. I may be= wrong about "the story." I'm usually thinking out loud when I post. I'm an= ything, but not infallible. Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like "Deep Image" come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their ver= y own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D96 =3D= 20=3D Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D20= =3D > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:06:25 -0800 From: steve russell Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) Not only am i not infallible, I just scrolled down to Pierre Joris. He answ= ers my question. I wasn't aware of the Bly/Merwin hijacking. Bly, I find, t= edious. The New Age guru bullshit gets on my nerves. Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like "Deep Image" come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their ver= y own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D96 =3D= 20=3D Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D20= =3D > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:22:36 -0800 From: Del Ray Cross Subject: SHAMPOO 31 Dear Hair-Adorning Citizens, Shampoo issue 31 finally has that lustrous finish. =3D20 Check it out here: www.ShampooPoetry.com It=3DE2=3D80=3D99s a special postcard poems issue with Tim Yu,=3D20 Stephanie Young, Debbie Yee, Doreen Wang, Paul=3D20 Siegell, Soham Patel, Ronald Palmer, John Oakey,=3D20 Andy Nicholson, Laura Navratil, Mika Nagasaki, Sara=3D20 Mumolo, Sonia Mukherji, H.E. Mantel, Nicholas=3D20 Manning, Christina Lopez, Cassie Lewis, Joseph O.=3D20 Legaspi, Rong Lee, Rathanak Michael Keo, Scott=3D20 Keeney, Janine Joseph, Alexander Jorgensen, Megan=3D20 Hartline, Kate Hall, Kevin Griffith, Rachel Gray, Marco=3D20 Giovenale, Sarah Gambito, Emily Kendal Frey, Oliver=3D20 de la Paz, Peter Davis, Jennifer Dannenberg, Del Ray=3D20 Cross, Jennifer Chang, Laura Carter, Avery Burns,=3D20 Julian T. Brolaski, Tamiko Beyer, Luis Cuauhtemoc=3D20 Berriozabal, Christopher Barnes, Hossannah=3D20 Asuncion, Shane Allison, Helene Achanzar, and Scott=3D20 Abels, along with a Shampoo Postcard by Otto Chan. Wish You Were Here, Del Ray Cross, Editor SHAMPOO clean hair / good poetry www.ShampooPoetry.com (if you'd prefer not to receive these messages, just let me know) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:29:34 -0600 From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Wikipedia Becomes a Class Assignment This discussion has been quite interesting, & says a lot about the attitudes people hold about wikipedia. One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that among young people (or at least those in my world) wikipedia is used automatically as a portal into any inquiry. Being children of the internet age I'm pretty sure most of them realize it is one possible source of information & not gospel. & as has been mentioned previous wikipedia is one of the top 5 websites on the net & gets tremendous amounts of traffic. A couple references to my projects generate hundreds of hits a month onto my own websites. Wikipedia introduced Veropedia last month, which is the next logical step in user-contributed content. For those that use wikipedia for research this may prove useful in the long term. This is still in the beta stage so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. From the FAQ: Veropedia is a collaborative effort by a group of Wikipedians to collect the best of Wikipedia's content, clean it up, vet it, and save it for all time. These articles are stable and cannot be edited, The result is a quality stable version that can be trusted by students, teachers, and anyone else who is looking for top-notch, reliable information. http://veropedia.com/docs/faq.php ~mIEKAL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:09:48 -0400 From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester thank you, jennifer. can think of various people to send this to, for various reasons, and I am appreciative to have it myself. On 11/3/07 8:16 PM, "Jennifer Karmin" wrote: > SELF-IMMOLATION: A voluntary sacrifice or denial of > oneself, as for an ideal or another person. > > Most famously demonstrated by Buddhist monk Thich > Quang Duc on June 11, 1963 in Vietnam. > > Most recently demonstrated by musician Malachi > Ritscher in Chicago on November 3, 2006 as a protest > against the Iraq war. One year ago, Malachi set > himself on fire next to the Kennedy Expressway during > morning rush hour. He left a statement and obituary > on his website. > http://www.savagesound.com/gallery99.htm > > As the Iraq War moves towards year 5, I am taking > some time to think about Malachi. I am wondering how > we find new ways to express our sadness, rage, and > disgust. When does the turning point come? When is > it enough? > > Onwards, > Jennifer Karmin > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 08:49:48 -0800 From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) I am jumping in after your response, Diane. I remember how much James Wrigh= t influenced me while I was in college. I thought his style was considered = "common language"--(sounds almost like plain english in legal forms.) He se= emed to be the epitome of the 1970's poet, especially in my part of the cou= ntry--the midwest. I was just thinking about his poem, "Autumn Beings in Ma= rtin's Ferry, Ohio." The poem does not have the impact that it once had on= me, but I still find it poignant--and deep, if I understand the way you ar= e using that term (which I may not be understanding at all). Mary Kasimor Diane DiPrima wrote: Thank you for that, Pierre. And just how does a term like "Deep Image" come to be re-used in such an unlikely context? And why? Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of their ver= y own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story? Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400 From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........ Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20 poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20 Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have =3D20 however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. =3D96 =3D= 20=3D Pierre On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote: > i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. =3D20 > LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =3D20 > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =3D20 > poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =3D20 > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =3D20 > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =3D20 > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20 > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has =3D20= =3D > never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =3D20 > influenced Language poets? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 16:58:08 +0000 From: Fulcrum Annual Subject: NEW CONTACT INFO: FULCRUM HAS MOVED! Dear All, FULCRUM, Philip and Katia Kapovich have relocated to a new address and tele= phone number. Please make a note of the information below. Our email and website URL remain the same. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip Nikolayev, Coeditor-in-Chief FULCRUM: AN ANNUAL OF POETRY AND AESTHETICS 421 Huron Avenue Cambridge, MA 02138, USA http://fulcrumpoetry.com phone +1.617.997.1654 e-mail editor{AT}fulcrumpoetry.com personal http://www.myspace.com/nikolayev Letters from Aldenderry: http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844712796.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:03:16 -0600 From: Tony Trigilio Subject: Rick Hilles and Jo McDougall / Columbia College Chicago / November= 14 RICK HILLES and JO McDOUGALL POETRY READING Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 5:30 p.m. Columbia College Chicago: Collins Hall, 624 S. Michigan, 6th floor Free and open to the public For more information, call Becca Klaver, 312-344-8819 RICK HILLES's poetry collection, BROTHER SALVAGE, won the 2005 Agnes Lynch Starrett Prize from University of Pittsburgh Press, and was recently named the 2006 Foreword Magazine Poetry Book of the Year. His poems have appeared in POETRY, THE NATION, THE NEW REPUBLIC, PLOUGHSHARES, SALMAGUNDI, and WITNESS. He has received the Amy Lowell Poetry Traveling Scholarship, the Wallace Stegner Fellowship at Stanford, the Halls Fellowship from Institute for Creative Writing at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and The Missouri Review's Levis Editor's Prize. During Fall 2007, he is Writer in Residence at the James Merrill House in Stonington, CT. He is an Assistant Professor at Vanderbilt University and lives in Nashville, Tennessee with his wife, the fiction writer Nancy Reisman. JO McDOUGALL is the author of five books of poetry, the latest two being DIRT and SATISFIED WITH HAVOC. She has won awards from the DeWitt Wallace/Reader's Digest foundation, the Academy of American Poets, and fellowships to the MacDowell Colony. Widely anthologized, her work has been adapted for film, theater, and musical compositions. TOWNS FACING RAILROADS, an adaptation of her poetry, was staged at the Arkansas Repertory Theatre in 2006. Her poems have appeared in COURT GREEN, HUDSON REVIEW, GEORGIA REVIEW, KENYON REVIEW, MiPOESIAS, and NEW LETTERS, among others. She is a former co-director of creative writing at Pittsburg State University, Pittsburg, Kansas. A native of Arkansas, she lives in Kansas City and is completing a memoir, DADDY'S MONEY. ------------------------------ End of POETICS Digest - 3 Nov 2007 to 4 Nov 2007 (#2007-308) ************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:06:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tomas weber Subject: Re: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline it's strange that this recieved has so little media coverage seeing as acts of self-immolation are really quite unusual. i'm not sure what to think of his actions really, one hand thinks brave and commendable, the other thinks "what a waste". in any case, this was the first i'd heard of it, so thanks for the information.... On 04/11/2007, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > thank you, jennifer. can think of various people to send this to, for > various reasons, and I am appreciative to have it myself. > > > On 11/3/07 8:16 PM, "Jennifer Karmin" wrote: > > > SELF-IMMOLATION: A voluntary sacrifice or denial of > > oneself, as for an ideal or another person. > > > > Most famously demonstrated by Buddhist monk Thich > > Quang Duc on June 11, 1963 in Vietnam. > > > > Most recently demonstrated by musician Malachi > > Ritscher in Chicago on November 3, 2006 as a protest > > against the Iraq war. One year ago, Malachi set > > himself on fire next to the Kennedy Expressway during > > morning rush hour. He left a statement and obituary > > on his website. > > http://www.savagesound.com/gallery99.htm > > > > As the Iraq War moves towards year 5, I am taking > > some time to think about Malachi. I am wondering how > > we find new ways to express our sadness, rage, and > > disgust. When does the turning point come? When is > > it enough? > > > > Onwards, > > Jennifer Karmin > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- "They taught me the names of the days and I marvelled at there being so few and flourished my little fists, crying out for more." - S. B. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:10:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: DOMAIN NAME CHANGE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed DOMAIN NAME CHANGE PLEASE NOTE http://www.asondheim.org is no longer in use - as a result of identity theft and changed credit cards, it went up for auction and I wasn't informed. I will have a new domain name soon; I've emptied the old one, and whatever content is there is not mine and not there with my permission. I will send out the new domain name as soon as it's properly registered. Thank you. - Alan Sondheim "Whatever happens I decide that it is fine. Having broken out of the trap of wishful thinking, I don't listen to what anyone says. I act with great roomy spontaneity, and since appearance dawns as text, I understand every- thing that occurs to be a key instruction." (from Jigme Lingpa, trans Janet Gyatso.) No one says anything and nothing happens. Deciding whatever happens is fine is just fine, just being fine. Spontaneity is roomy and everywhere, nothing's in the way, it's fine. Appearance dawns, it's not always there, sometimes just a whisper or murmur, text is always a glimpse, text isn't, the glimpse, I mean the problem with theory, glimpse as concrete or harsh rendering. Dawn of text, there wasn't any, nothing in roominess, then this! But it's since appearance dawns as text - there's causality already at work, why? In any case of the world, everything that occurs, which means not everything occurs, dawns as a key instruction, there are signs to be read, appearance is instruction, appearance articu- lates (otherwise it's not appearance). There's no appearance. There's hardly a key instruction. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:17:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline considering the influence of Ammons on poets at Cornell etc., then please look straight at Alice Fulton and even she, while recognizing his mentorship, is at pains to claim she began using scientific language as metaphor before she considers herself to have been mented by Ammons, who uses human interference with the natural world in a -- a way that's interesting to compare and contrast with Fulton Be well, Catherine On 11/5/07, Tom Orange wrote: > > dear steve, > > just for the record: ammons' "tape," published in 1994, could in no > way have "anticipate[d] the Language poetics," which was originally > formulated in the 1970s, became contested in wider literary circles in > the 1980s and was essentially over (in terms of group identifications > and energies) by the 1990s (though of course many in the original > moment continue to write and publish today). > > to the extent that the ammons poem uses the adding machine tape as a > formal constraint, it could be more plausibly argued that language > poetics and/or oulipo anticipated the ammons poem. > > allbests, > tom orange > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:48:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paolo javier Subject: Night Haunts book launches! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Join us for the launch of *NIGHT HAUNTS* *: A Journey Through Nocturnal London * A new release from Verso Books by *Sukhdev Sandhu* *Tuesday, November 13* *630-930 * *Lolita Bar (266 Broome) * hosted by www.2ndavepoetry.com * there will be spooked out sonics and appropriately eldritch videos. And copies of the book available for sale, of course! - ye host * -- http://blog.myspace.com/paolojavier http://www.2ndavepoetry.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:49:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Deep Image (again) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline i also must stand corrected (thanks aldon!) -- "tape for the turn of the year" was first published in 1965. (never trust publication date you find on amazon as it might be the reprint date!) i guess maybe i was conflating "tape"with "glare," which is a later book-length poem. allbests, t. ------------------------------------------- *Date:* Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:17:41 -0700 *Reply-To:*UB Poetics discussion group *Subject:* Re: Deep Image (again) considering the influence of Ammons on poets at Cornell etc., then please look straight at Alice Fulton and even she, while recognizing his mentorship, is at pains to claim she began using scientific language as metaphor before she considers herself to have been mented by Ammons, who uses human interference with the natural world in a -- a way that's interesting to compare and contrast with Fulton Be well, Catherine On 11/5/07, Tom Orange wrote: > > dear steve, > > just for the record: ammons' "tape," published in 1994, could in no > way have "anticipate[d] the Language poetics," which was originally > formulated in the 1970s, became contested in wider literary circles in > the 1980s and was essentially over (in terms of group identifications > and energies) by the 1990s (though of course many in the original > moment continue to write and publish today). > > to the extent that the ammons poem uses the adding machine tape as a > formal constraint, it could be more plausibly argued that language > poetics and/or oulipo anticipated the ammons poem. > > allbests, > tom orange > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:53:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Latta Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Tom, Ammons's *Tape* was first published by Cornell U. P. in 1965. One sees how various schools are formed willy-nilly out of personal associations rather than out of similarities of method or result in *the work* when one looks at Ammons. All the best, John On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Tom Orange wrote: > dear steve, > > just for the record: ammons' "tape," published in 1994, could in no > way have "anticipate[d] the Language poetics," which was originally > formulated in the 1970s, became contested in wider literary circles in > the 1980s and was essentially over (in terms of group identifications > and energies) by the 1990s (though of course many in the original > moment continue to write and publish today). > > to the extent that the ammons poem uses the adding machine tape as a > formal constraint, it could be more plausibly argued that language > poetics and/or oulipo anticipated the ammons poem. > > allbests, > tom orange > > ----- > > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:02:27 -0800 > From: steve russell > Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) > > I posted about "deep image." Merwin & J Wright have been lumped in > that school. I spoke of Ammons as an iconoclast, belonging to no > school. I mentioned in one of my post my fondness for "Tape for the > Turning of the Year" by Ammons, a poem that seems to me to anticipate > the Language poetics. I may be wrong about "the story." I'm usually > thinking out loud when I post. I'm anything, but not infallible. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:10:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: <812613.62484.qm@web86014.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) On Nov 5, 2007, at 6:34 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for > accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute > motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to > say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" > without having to say they developed this just because they knew > that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton > Anthology? infuriating to you, maybe, but accurate Pierre ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:31:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) Comments: To: Tom Orange In-Reply-To: dda36f180711050707p518fc897r122f37a4b86ea4d1@mail.gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Tom: I hate to go all older brother on you, but my copy of Ammons's TAPE was published in 1965 -- you're looking at a later reprinting -- Though the thought ot the LANGUAGE poets anticipating something that preceded them has a certain appeal for a student of the future anterior like me -- On Mon, Nov 5, 2007 10:07 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > dear steve, > >just for the record: ammons' "tape," published in 1994, could in no >way have "anticipate[d] the Language poetics," which was originally >formulated in the 1970s, became contested in wider literary circles in >the 1980s and was essentially over (in terms of group identifications >and energies) by the 1990s (though of course many in the original >moment continue to write and publish today). > >to the extent that the ammons poem uses the adding machine tape as a >formal constraint, it could be more plausibly argued that language >poetics and/or oulipo anticipated the ammons poem. > >allbests, >tom orange > >----- > >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:02:27 -0800 >From: steve russell >Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) > >I posted about "deep image." Merwin & J Wright have been lumped in >that school. I spoke of Ammons as an iconoclast, belonging to no >school. I mentioned in one of my post my fondness for "Tape for the >Turning of the Year" by Ammons, a poem that seems to me to anticipate >the Language poetics. I may be wrong about "the story." I'm usually >thinking out loud when I post. I'm anything, but not infallible. > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 10:34:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 11.05.07-11.11.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 LITERARY BUFFALO 11.05.07-11.11.07 BABEL ORHAN PAMUK TICKETS ARE SOLD OUT=21 Tickets for individual Babel events are still on sale. Call 832-5400 or vis= it http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel. WE ARE NOW OFFERING A 3-EVENT SUBSCRIPTION FOR =2460. CALL 832-5400 FOR DETAILS. For the moment, this subscription is by phone or in person only. December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden =2425 March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize =2425 April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize =2425 Save =2415 on all three. ___________________________________________________________________________ EVENTS Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. 11.06.07 Talking Leaves...Books/Hallwalls Allen Shelton Reading and signing for Dreamworlds of Alabama Tuesday, November 6, 7 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema at Babeville, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper 11.07.07 Just Buffalo/Center For Inquiry Literary Cafe Feature: Jane Adam & David Butler Wednesday, November 7, 7:30 p.m. Center For Inquiry, 1310 Sweet Home Rd., Amherst 8 open slots, all are welcome to read=21 11.08.07 Just Buffalo/Hallwalls present Babel Orhan Pamuk Reading and Conversation Thursday, November 8, 8 p.m., =2425 Asbury Hall at Babeville, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper SOLD OUT 11.09.07 SUNY at Buffalo/Oscar Silverman Reading Robert Hass, former Poet Laureate of the United States Poetry Reading Friday, November 9, 8 p.m. 250 Baird Hall, UB North Campus, Amherst 11.11.07 Spoken Word Sundays Priscilla Hill and Celeste Lawson Sunday, November 11, 8 p.m. Allen Street Hardware, 245 Allen St. Slots for open readers available ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ___________________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:15:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Monaco Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: <812613.62484.qm@web86014.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps my last post gave the impression that Bly and company =93used=94 de= ep image as a means of entering the mainstream American poetry establishmen= t? In this case, I suppose my argument is more that (whether deliberate or= not), folks like Bly and Merwin re-consider deep image in such a way that = it is more easily assimilated into mainstream poetry in the 1960=92s and on= . When one reads Kelly and Rothenberg=92s statements regarding deep image,= they literally refer to the struggle that is the poem=92s composition. Th= ere is a material, physical exchange with language and the image. This exc= hange also makes demands upon the reader that is absent from Bly=92s deep i= mage poetry, which I find affective at times. This is also why it appears = that Kelly and Rothenberg=92s =93struggle=94 with the deep image influenced= the Language Poets, as opposed to Bly and co.=92s reconsideration of deep = image poetry. I am certainly not against someone having =93new=94 or diver= gent ideas; what concerns me is that all =93official=94 histories of deep i= mage poetics (as opposed to books like D. Kane=92s _All Poets Welcome_, Ras= ula=92s _American Poetry Wax Museum_, etc.) cite Bly as the originator of d= eep image poetics. These same official histories even exclude the work of = folks like Zukofsky and the Objectivists, as well as Pound and Imagism, whi= ch play a significant role in Kelly and Rothenberg=92s formulations. As an= aside, there is also an interesting exchange between Levertov and Duncan i= n their collected correspondence regarding Kelly and Rothenberg=92s develop= ment of deep image poetics.=20 =20 I am all for divergence, and I flinch at any demand for "purity" in poetry= . In fact, a close read of Kelly and Rothenberg's statements on deep imag= e demonstrates that the two of them and the other folks associated with ear= ly deep image, never came to nor tried to develop a "pure" and comprehensiv= e "deep image poetics." Thus the very idea of a deep image "school" of poe= try already works against what Kelly and Rothenberg were working on in thei= r early formulations. My issue is with the critics/editors who gloss over o= r write Kelly and Rothenberg out of the deep image equation. It would be b= est if the history accounted for the work of Kelly and Rothenberg, and inco= rporated the ways in which Bly and co. develop a different sense of the dee= p image. I think my last post was a reaction to surveying the tons o' poet= ry anthologies intended for classroom use that simply delete Kelly and Roth= enberg's work entirely (particularly Kelly), and celebrate Bly as the only = poet investigating deep image. I don't think Bly and co. "knew" they could= get into the Norton on their formulation of deep image; I just wish Norton= and other anthologies did not come across as the final word in what consti= tutes deep image poetics (particularly in the classroom and on bookshelves = in chain stores): there's so much more to it and it is, in my opinion, a k= ey chapter in Post-War and contemporary American poetry. =20 =20 Best to all, Peter > Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:34:41 +0000> From: b.schwabsky@BTOPENWO= RLD.COM> Subject: Re: Deep Image (again)> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>= > I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for accu= sations of careerism and the like in order to attribute motivations to poet= s who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to say that Bly and co. had an = impoverished notion of "deep image" without having to say they developed th= is just because they knew that such a concept would be the key to getting i= nto the Norton Anthology? > > Peter Monaco wrot= e: > > A cursory glance of most poetry anthologies, as well as the various = histories of Modern American poetry that have been published since the 1960= =92s posit Bly as being the deep image =93school=92s=94 leading poet and th= eorist. With the exception of some initial interactions between Bly and Rot= henberg, there is little in Bly=92s work to suggest that he fully grasped t= he core group=92s attempt at conceptualizing deep image poetics. The deep i= mage poetics associated with Bly, in fact, can either be considered a misre= ading of Rothenberg and Kelly=92s statements, or indeed a serious divergenc= e down another path. For Bly, a kind of solitude is necessary in deep image= poetics. Although Kelly and Rothenberg allude to energy and movement in re= lation to the poetic image in their conception of the deep image, Bly omits= the participatory aspect of the image. Bly, the hero-poet, descends to the= depths of the unconscious and performs an act of recovery and articulation= for the reader, as opposed to the> demand for participation in the composi= tion of the poetic space that Kelly, Rothenberg, Owens, and Schwerner deman= d in their own work. For all of the paths Bly=92s deep image poetics attemp= ts to reveal in the on-going struggle to re-connect humans to the cosmologi= cal world, the main thrust of his poetics relies instead on =93plugging=94 = the image into a pre-existing mythological system based much more firmly on= Jung=92s theory of the archetype and the collective unconscious (see Bly= =92s _Iron John_). In fact, the casual way in which some dismiss the deep i= mage as a pedestrian deployment of Jungian archetypal psychology and the la= tent structuralism of anthropologists like Levi-Strauss, can be directly at= tributed to Bly=92s misreading.> > Bly and Wright (Bly=92s =93co-conspirato= r=94) neglect the community-based origins of deep image poetics. Publicatio= ns like Kelly and Economou=92s Trobar and the various poetry readings that = the core group held imply that at the foundation of deep image poetics is t= he concept that each of these spaces constitutes a site of resistance to th= e absorption of Modern American poetry into the academy. Similarly, each of= these spaces opens up an arena for on-going conversations among poets and = text, broadly defined. By placing translations of pre-modern, esoteric, tro= ubadour, as well as Surrealist poetry and the work of figures like Lorca al= ongside essays and poems which also consider the function of the rejected k= nowledge that fuels the mythopoetic revolution (Gnostic texts, alchemical t= reatises, ritual chant and song) and the inherent politics of re-opening a = dialogue with the =93Other,=94 the performance spaces of the deep image gro= up hinge upon participation and conversation to further the> opening of the= poetic field, towards Duncan=92s =93symposium of the whole.=94 However, Bl= y and Wright initiate a deep image poetics that joins the rank of Bernstein= =92s =93official verse culture.=94 Bly and Wright use their misreading of d= eep image poetry to carve out a niche in the official (read: Norton) Americ= an poetry institution and to develop careers as =93officially accredited=94= poets, thus re-affirming the more egocentric =93hero-poet=94 model imperti= nent to Kelly, Rothenberg, and Economou=92s sense of poetic community.> > D= ate: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500> From: jorispierre@MAC.COM> Subject: Re= : Deep Image (again)> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Rothenberg & Kell= y used it briefly =96 a few essays in Trobar, plus a > letter exchange with= Creeley and some other material. But neither of > them were into founding = a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly > was somewhat close to them, = and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost > interest in formalizing their fi= rst insights and got busy elsewhere, > Bly ran with the concept. I have a g= raduate student working on a diss > around Deep Image right now, & I hope h= e will come up with a > publishable book that would include all the essays = & correspondence > around DI =96 which I believe was an important moment in= post-War US > poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection of es= says, > ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to his >= piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter > quotes= Olson's> response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : > "not imag= eS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate > understanding of the= original Deep Image project =96 while the later > counterfeiters (Bly, Mer= win etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they > are all about imageS. =96 Pie= rre> > On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote:> > > Thank you for = that, Pierre.> >> > And just how does a term like =93Deep Image=94 come to = be re-used in > > such an> > unlikely context? And why?> >> > Surely Ammons= , et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of > > their very> > own?= Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story?> >> >> >= Diane di Prima> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400> > F= rom: Pierre Joris > > Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........> >= > > Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=3D20= > > poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =3D20= > > Robert Kelly (before the name> got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have > = > =3D20> > however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets= . > > =3D96 =3D20=3D> >> > Pierre> >> > On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve = russell wrote:> >> >> i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "d= eep image vs. > >> =3D20> >> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 = poets have had =3D20> >> the most significant influence over my way of look= ing at =3D20> >> poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intu= itive =3D20> >> enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came in= to =3D20> >> prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an= =3D20> >> influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =3D20= > >> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has > = >> =3D20=3D> >> >> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. H= as he =3D20> >> influenced Language poets?> >>> >> ________________________= __________________________> >> Do You Yahoo!?> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo!> Ma= il has the best spam protection around> >> http://mail.yahoo.com> >> > ____= _______________________________________________________> >> > The poet: alw= ays in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> > _______________________________= ____________________________> > Pierre Joris> > 244 Elm Street> > Albany NY= 12202> > h: 518 426 0433> > c: 518 225 7123> > o: 518 442 40 71> > Euro ce= ll: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> > email: joris@albany.edu> > http://pierrejoris= .com> > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> > ______________________= ______________________________________> > _________________________________= __________________________> > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Pa= ul Celan> ___________________________________________________________> Pier= re Joris> 244 Elm Street> Albany NY 12202> h: 518 426 0433> c: 518 225 7123= > o: 518 442 40 71> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> email: joris@albany.= edu> http://pierrejoris.com> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com>> __= __________________________________________________________> _______________= __________________________________________________> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks = & Treats for You!> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:32:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jennifer, I hope this post doesn=B9t take the discussion off track, it is not my intention, but: I just wanted to mention, for the record, that several Buddhist monks and nuns self-immolated during the Vietnam war. One article in the Times, about a young nun who died in this way on June 3 1966, moved me to write a short poem (still in print in my Revolutionary Letters). When I wrote the Times t= o ask her name so that I could use in the title of my poem, they responded by sending me the address in Asia of the correspondent who wrote the article. = I finally reached him and he wrote back that =B3Buddhist nuns didn=B9t have names=B2--which was of course grossly untrue. It was interesting to me that nearly every monk who self-immolated was mentioned by name when anyone bothered to write about him at all, but that =B3Buddhist nuns didn=B9t have names.=B2 All best, Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 17:16:20 -0700 From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester SELF-IMMOLATION: A voluntary sacrifice or denial of oneself, as for an ideal or another person. Most famously demonstrated by Buddhist monk Thich Quang Duc on June 11, 1963 in Vietnam. Most recently demonstrated by musician Malachi Ritscher in Chicago on November 3, 2006 as a protest against the Iraq war. One year ago, Malachi set himself on fire next to the Kennedy Expressway during morning rush hour. He left a statement and obituary on his website. http://www.savagesound.com/gallery99.htm As the Iraq War moves towards year 5, I am taking some time to think about Malachi. I am wondering how we find new ways to express our sadness, rage, and disgust. When does the turning point come? When is it enough? Onwards, Jennifer Karmin __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:34:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: Deep Image MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I know we're not all the greatest fans of Wikipedia, but still... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_image ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) Comments: To: Tom Orange In-Reply-To: dda36f180711050849u2ee38f1cl85114ee9879d60af@mail.gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I started out to read a long skinny poem But I much prefer SPHERE for a long Ammons -- TAPE dipped too often into those lamer (to me) moments that bogged down the later SNOW POEMS, from which you could edit a really good book that would still be, like, totally long -- On Mon, Nov 5, 2007 11:49 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > i also must stand corrected (thanks aldon!) -- "tape for the >turn of the >year" was first published in 1965. (never trust publication date you >find on >amazon as it might be the reprint date!) i guess maybe i was conflating >"tape"with "glare," which is a later book-length poem. > >allbests, >t. > >------------------------------------------- > >*Date:* Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:17:41 -0700 >*Reply-To:*UB Poetics discussion group *From:* Catherine Daly >*Subject:* Re: Deep Image (again) > > >considering the influence of Ammons on poets at Cornell etc., then please > >look straight at Alice Fulton > >and even she, while recognizing his mentorship, is at pains to claim she >began using scientific language as metaphor before she considers herself to >have been mented by Ammons, who uses human interference with the natural > >world in a -- a way that's interesting to compare and contrast with Fulton > >Be well, >Catherine > > >On 11/5/07, Tom Orange wrote: > >> >> dear steve, >> >> just for the record: ammons' "tape," published in 1994, could in >no >> way have "anticipate[d] the Language poetics," which was >originally >> formulated in the 1970s, became contested in wider literary circles in > >> the 1980s and was essentially over (in terms of group identifications >> and energies) by the 1990s (though of course many in the original >> moment continue to write and publish today). >> >> to the extent that the ammons poem uses the adding machine tape as a > >> formal constraint, it could be more plausibly argued that language >> poetics and/or oulipo anticipated the ammons poem. >> >> allbests, >> tom orange >> >> > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 13:43:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Why Pierre, are you insinuating that Robert Bly is an opportunist? I may have to challenge you to a duel. Preferably on the beach at Cannes--we might as well combine it with a vacation. Mark At 12:10 PM 11/5/2007, you wrote: >On Nov 5, 2007, at 6:34 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >>I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for >>accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute >>motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to >>say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" >>without having to say they developed this just because they knew >>that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton >>Anthology? > >infuriating to you, maybe, but accurate > >Pierre >___________________________________________________________ > >The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >___________________________________________________________ >Pierre Joris >244 Elm Street >Albany NY 12202 >h: 518 426 0433 >c: 518 225 7123 >o: 518 442 40 71 >Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >email: joris@albany.edu >http://pierrejoris.com >Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:13:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: NEW DOMAIN: www.alansondheim.org - apologies for change MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed DOMAIN NAME CHANGE II - NEW DOMAIN PLEASE NOTE http://www.alansondheim.org is now open, although it's almost empty at this point. Given that, I've put up a long version of the Foofwa / Maud duet related to avatar movement - this is 100 Megs, too large for casual download but good for viewing in live/gallery situations. I'll let it up for a short while. Again, please note: asondheim.org is empty and no longer active (at least for me) - and www.alansondheim.org - http://www.asondheim.org - replaces it. Apologies if this causes any difficulties. (I should add this change happened quickly, thanks to sysadmin action from the relevant sites.) - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:26:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this is a case of us vs. them -- that Rothenberg/Kelly's version of deep image is better than Bly/Wright/Merwin/Wakoski/Rich etc. etc. because of who they were published by and who they hung out with. I think this mentality is an artifact of the seventies and eighties, and when we follow it we tend to recast the past to fit those assumptions. A glance at lots of so-called mainstream publications show a much greater heterogeniety of poets, with writers of different groups reading and responding to each other's work. Especially consider Bly's own publications (Fifties, Sixties, Seventies). Although it's hard to think of an American poet who has done more to wreck their reputation than Bly, it's just not true that Bly or Wright or Merwin were uninterested in community, or that they were comfortable with the relation between modern poetry and the academy or the larger American culture, or that Bly, Wright and Merwin were uninterested in pre-modern, esoteric, troubador and surrealist poets (they were all prolific translators and advocates of this sort of work). These later deep image writers can be considered as negative influences, and intriguing in the sense that both Langpo and the New Formalists both sought to define themselves by how they were not like deep image. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Peter Monaco wrote: A cursory glance of most poetry anthologies, as well as the various histories of Modern American poetry that have been published since the 1960’s posit Bly as being the deep image “school’s” leading poet and theorist. With the exception of some initial interactions between Bly and Rothenberg, there is little in Bly’s work to suggest that he fully grasped the core group’s attempt at conceptualizing deep image poetics. The deep image poetics associated with Bly, in fact, can either be considered a misreading of Rothenberg and Kelly’s statements, or indeed a serious divergence down another path. For Bly, a kind of solitude is necessary in deep image poetics. Although Kelly and Rothenberg allude to energy and movement in relation to the poetic image in their conception of the deep image, Bly omits the participatory aspect of the image. Bly, the hero-poet, descends to the depths of the unconscious and performs an act of recovery and articulation for the reader, as opposed to the demand for participation in the composition of the poetic space that Kelly, Rothenberg, Owens, and Schwerner demand in their own work. For all of the paths Bly’s deep image poetics attempts to reveal in the on-going struggle to re-connect humans to the cosmological world, the main thrust of his poetics relies instead on “plugging” the image into a pre-existing mythological system based much more firmly on Jung’s theory of the archetype and the collective unconscious (see Bly’s _Iron John_). In fact, the casual way in which some dismiss the deep image as a pedestrian deployment of Jungian archetypal psychology and the latent structuralism of anthropologists like Levi-Strauss, can be directly attributed to Bly’s misreading. Bly and Wright (Bly’s “co-conspirator”) neglect the community-based origins of deep image poetics. Publications like Kelly and Economou’s Trobar and the various poetry readings that the core group held imply that at the foundation of deep image poetics is the concept that each of these spaces constitutes a site of resistance to the absorption of Modern American poetry into the academy. Similarly, each of these spaces opens up an arena for on-going conversations among poets and text, broadly defined. By placing translations of pre-modern, esoteric, troubadour, as well as Surrealist poetry and the work of figures like Lorca alongside essays and poems which also consider the function of the rejected knowledge that fuels the mythopoetic revolution (Gnostic texts, alchemical treatises, ritual chant and song) and the inherent politics of re-opening a dialogue with the “Other,” the performance spaces of the deep image group hinge upon participation and conversation to further the opening of the poetic field, towards Duncan’s “symposium of the whole.” However, Bly and Wright initiate a deep image poetics that joins the rank of Bernstein’s “official verse culture.” Bly and Wright use their misreading of deep image poetry to carve out a niche in the official (read: Norton) American poetry institution and to develop careers as “officially accredited” poets, thus re-affirming the more egocentric “hero-poet” model impertinent to Kelly, Rothenberg, and Economou’s sense of poetic community. > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500> From: jorispierre@MAC.COM> Subject: Re: Deep Image (again)> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Rothenberg & Kelly used it briefly – a few essays in Trobar, plus a > letter exchange with Creeley and some other material. But neither of > them were into founding a school or movement as such. Back then, Bly > was somewhat close to them, and, as far as I know, once JR & RK lost > interest in formalizing their first insights and got busy elsewhere, > Bly ran with the concept. I have a graduate student working on a diss > around Deep Image right now, & I hope he will come up with a > publishable book that would include all the essays & correspondence > around DI – which I believe was an important moment in post-War US > poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection of essays, > ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to his > piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter > quotes Olson's response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : > "not imageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate > understanding of the original Deep Image project – while the later > counterfeiters (Bly, Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they > are all about imageS. – Pierre> > On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima wrote:> > > Thank you for that, Pierre.> >> > And just how does a term like “Deep Image” come to be re-used in > > such an> > unlikely context? And why?> >> > Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new phrase of > > their very> > own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to bury, to rewrite the story?> >> >> > Diane di Prima> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400> > From: Pierre Joris > > Subject: Re: Deep image, part 11: question........> >> > Ammons, Merwin & co. have to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20> > poets. The original Deep Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20> > Robert Kelly (before the name got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have > > =20> > however been important in different ways for some of the L-poets. > > =96 =20=> >> > Pierre> >> > On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote:> >> >> i'm always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. > >> =20> >> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20> >> the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20> >> poetry. But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20> >> enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20> >> prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20> >> influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20> >> iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has > >> =20=> >> >> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he =20> >> influenced Language poets?> >>> >> __________________________________________________> >> Do You Yahoo!?> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around> >> http://mail.yahoo.com> >> > ___________________________________________________________> >> > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> > ___________________________________________________________> > Pierre Joris> > 244 Elm Street> > Albany NY 12202> > h: 518 426 0433> > c: 518 225 7123> > o: 518 442 40 71> > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> > email: joris@albany.edu> > http://pierrejoris.com> > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> > ____________________________________________________________> > ___________________________________________________________> > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> ___________________________________________________________> Pierre Joris> 244 Elm Street> Albany NY 12202> h: 518 426 0433> c: 518 225 7123> o: 518 442 40 71> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> email: joris@albany.edu> http://pierrejoris.com> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com> ____________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:43:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Myles and Bellamy in SF this Thursday Comments: To: ampersand@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The Eileen and Dodie Hour Eileen Myles and Dodie Bellamy Thursday, November 8 7:30 PM Two great female post-geniuses of literary otherness join forces. Myles' latest book is Sorry, Tree "in which she describes 'some nature' as well as the transmigration of souls from the east coast to the west." Bellamy's latest book is Academonia, "an epic narrative of survival against institutional deadening and the proscriptiveness that shoots the young writer like poison darts from all sides." Modern Times Bookstore 888 Valencia St. @ 20th St San Francisco 415-282-9246 Free ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:16:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric unger Subject: Re: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Thanks for posting this Jennifer. More people need to know about brother Malachi Ritscher. Reading his mission statement brought me back to last year when I had first heard the story of this man who sacrificed his life in the hopes that he could call attention to the horrible truths of the Iraq war. Everyone need not go as far as he did, but it was his own autonomous choice. His memory and his voice shall linger on. Eric Unger On 11/5/07, Diane DiPrima wrote: > Hi Jennifer, > > I hope this post doesn=B9t take the discussion off track, it is not my > intention, but: > > I just wanted to mention, for the record, that several Buddhist monks and > nuns self-immolated during the Vietnam war. One article in the Times, abo= ut > a young nun who died in this way on June 3 1966, moved me to write a shor= t > poem (still in print in my Revolutionary Letters). When I wrote the Times= to > ask her name so that I could use in the title of my poem, they responded = by > sending me the address in Asia of the correspondent who wrote the article= . I > finally reached him and he wrote back that =B3Buddhist nuns didn=B9t have > names=B2--which was of course grossly untrue. It was interesting to me th= at > nearly every monk who self-immolated was mentioned by name when anyone > bothered to write about him at all, but that =B3Buddhist nuns didn=B9t ha= ve > names.=B2 > > All best, Diane di Prima > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 17:16:20 -0700 > From: Jennifer Karmin > Subject: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester > > SELF-IMMOLATION: A voluntary sacrifice or denial of > oneself, as for an ideal or another person. > > Most famously demonstrated by Buddhist monk Thich > Quang Duc on June 11, 1963 in Vietnam. > > Most recently demonstrated by musician Malachi > Ritscher in Chicago on November 3, 2006 as a protest > against the Iraq war. One year ago, Malachi set > himself on fire next to the Kennedy Expressway during > morning rush hour. He left a statement and obituary > on his website. > http://www.savagesound.com/gallery99.htm > > As the Iraq War moves towards year 5, I am taking > some time to think about Malachi. I am wondering how > we find new ways to express our sadness, rage, and > disgust. When does the turning point come? When is > it enough? > > Onwards, > Jennifer Karmin > > __________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 13:33:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit since it was published in '65, perhaps my original comment is valid. i'm fond of Ammons. he seemed to have fun. lots of energy, ideas. not encumbered by academia. jorge borges is another incredibly erudite writer who was never pedantic. i'm reading his "The Craft of Verse." & loving it. Tom Orange wrote: i also must stand corrected (thanks aldon!) -- "tape for the turn of the year" was first published in 1965. (never trust publication date you find on amazon as it might be the reprint date!) i guess maybe i was conflating "tape"with "glare," which is a later book-length poem. allbests, t. ------------------------------------------- *Date:* Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:17:41 -0700 *Reply-To:*UB Poetics discussion group *From:* Catherine Daly *Subject:* Re: Deep Image (again) considering the influence of Ammons on poets at Cornell etc., then please look straight at Alice Fulton and even she, while recognizing his mentorship, is at pains to claim she began using scientific language as metaphor before she considers herself to have been mented by Ammons, who uses human interference with the natural world in a -- a way that's interesting to compare and contrast with Fulton Be well, Catherine On 11/5/07, Tom Orange wrote: > > dear steve, > > just for the record: ammons' "tape," published in 1994, could in no > way have "anticipate[d] the Language poetics," which was originally > formulated in the 1970s, became contested in wider literary circles in > the 1980s and was essentially over (in terms of group identifications > and energies) by the 1990s (though of course many in the original > moment continue to write and publish today). > > to the extent that the ammons poem uses the adding machine tape as a > formal constraint, it could be more plausibly argued that language > poetics and/or oulipo anticipated the ammons poem. > > allbests, > tom orange > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:14:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Myles and Bellamy in SF this Thursday In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dang! this would be great to be able to take in~sorry i can't be there, post-genii! Dodie Bellamy wrote: > The Eileen and Dodie Hour > Eileen Myles and Dodie Bellamy > > Thursday, November 8 > 7:30 PM > > Two great female post-geniuses of literary otherness join forces. > Myles' latest book is Sorry, Tree "in which she describes 'some > nature' as well as the transmigration of souls from the east coast to > the west." Bellamy's latest book is Academonia, "an epic narrative of > survival against institutional deadening and the proscriptiveness that > shoots the young writer like poison darts from all sides." > > Modern Times Bookstore > 888 Valencia St. @ 20th St > San Francisco > 415-282-9246 > Free ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:17:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gretchen Adele Subject: Re: "deep image" definition wiki-ed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I donno what your plaint really is is, as Free wikipedia seems to have an informative snapshot of what, exactly, "deep image" poetry is. And why should we not be able to Name and Define our own world? Or do you have a better definition? Just asking thanks, helenighthawk On 11/3/07, Simon DeDeo wrote: > > I agree with people who view wikipedia as a useful tool. I suppose > (shorter Simon) that the counterpoint is "don't do wikipedia any favors." > > I forget the exact rank, but wikipedia is somewhere in the top ten of all > websites in terms of visits and "eyeball share." This is absolutely > amazing. The founders (Jimbo Wales is the one remaining) I think have > absolutely no idea how this happened. > > They are sitting on something that is worth more than facebook. Literally, > billions of dollars are somewhere in there, and the people paying for the > server space are trying to figure out where it's hiding. (While they are > also asking for donations.) > > Right now they are trying to "monetize" it by spinning off for-profit > wikipedia-like sites (I believe "WikiCities" was one.) You haven't heard > of WikiCities because it flopped. They haven't found the cash. > > Wikipedia itself is run by a non-profit "foundation". Formally, the people > who are trying to make money off the wikipedia concept are legally > separate from the foundation people. But to say there is overlap and > conflict-of-interest is to put it mildly. Everyone stands to become rich > beyond their wildest dreams. > > I've seen more than once (check rhubarb for "flagged revisions") this > impulse affect what happens on wikipedia. Wikipedia is, in the end, a bit > of a mess -- legally, pr-wise, etc. -- and the goal right now seems to be > figuring out how to make it cash-friendly. > > I think, in other words, that people should be wary of investing their > time in wikipedia's poetry coverage. I think it is much wiser to build > your own sites and information networks rather than labor for free on a > project that nobody in the community will control or profit from. > -- helen nighthawk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:34:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: FW: Today's the Day- Call Your Senator ! ! ! Two Appeals to Contact Senators re US Joining International Ban on Cluster Bombs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Global Day of Action TODAY!!!* *Ban the Use and Export of U.S. Cluster Bombs* *Call the U.S. Senate on TODAY (Monday, November 5)* *Senate switchboard: 1-800-352-1897* Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that spew deadly shrapnel over large swathes of land at the time of use and leave behind fields of landmines after combat ends. As a result, over the last 40 years the vast majority - 98% - of cluster bomb casualties have been civilians. More than 80 countries have agreed to negotiate a ban on these indiscriminate killers in 2008. The U.S. government is not one of the countries, arguing that the military's need for these weapons over-rides humanitarian concerns. However, these weapons are even a liability for the military, as the unexploded bomblets impede troop movement and have already killed U.S. soldiers in Iraq. One of the American Task Force for Lebanon Legislative Council's (ATFL-LC) priorities is passage in the coming year of Senate Bill 594 and House Bill 1755, *The* *Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Acts of 2007. * ATFL-LC is participating in a *national call-in day on Monday, November 5 to urge Senators to co-sponsor Senate Bill 594*. This initiative takes place as part of a broader *Global Day of Action on Cluster Bombs * called by the worldwide Cluster Munitions Coalition to help propel the global cluster bomb treaty negotiations. *We invite you to take part. *It's easy. There is *toll-free number (1-800-352-1897),* which will allow people to call the Capitol Switchboard for free. Two websites are set up to let people know the basics of calling (when, what, where, why, how). Please feel free to direct people to these sites and/or the phone number. The main website is: http://www.fcnl.org/landing/clusterbombcall.htm *** Following is additional information for the Monday, November 5 National Call in to *Ban U.S. Cluster Bombs*! *What?* National call-in day to the Senate, urging senators to cosponsor Senate Bill.594 (the Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Act of 2007). This legislation would substantially restrict both the use and export of cluster bombs by: 1) requiring that they not be used in areas where civilians are known to be present, and 2) requiring that they have a "dud rate" of less than 1% (meaning that they will leave behind fewer deadly submunitions on the ground after the combat ends). *Why?* Monday, November 5 is a *Global Day of Action* against cluster bombs. People all over the world are taking action to urge the banning of these indiscriminate killers. The call-in day is a chance to let our Senators know that there is strong public opposition to these inhumane weapons in the U.S. and strong support for Senate Bill 594. *When?* Make calls on Monday, November 5, any time. Regular business hours are better, as you will get to talk to a real person (instead of leaving a message). Calls on other days are also encouraged but the more we can concentrate on November 5, the better. *How?* *Calls to the Senate can be made for free on (800) 352-1897. Callers will automatically be redirected to the Capitol Switchboard. They will need to ask for their Senator by name. Once directed to the office, ask for the Legislative Assistant who deals with military and national security issues. Urge them to become a co-sponsor of S.594 and to work for its passage in the coming year. * *For more information on the call-in day, visit: ** http://www.fcnl.org/landing/clusterbombcall.htm * ** [image: space] [image: space] [image: DonateNow] Consider making a secure, tax-deductible donation to ATFL. American Task Force for Lebanon Legislative Council 2213 M Street NW, 3rd Floor, Washington, D.C. 20037 Telephone: (202) 223-9333 Fax: (202) 223-1399. To unsubscribe, click here. ------------------------------ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! Try now! *Call Your Senators Today, Day of Action on Cluster Bombs* Today, *Monday, November 5*, the US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation joins the Friends Committee on National Legislation, Amnesty International USA, United for Peace and Justice, and many other organizations in a global day of action on cluster bombs. ** During its war on Lebanon last summer, Israel dropped 130,000 cluster bombs containing 1.2 million cluster bomblets in 498 locations in villages throughout the south of the country. Unexploded cluster bomblets subsequently have injured and killed civilians. Only 20% of Israel's unexploded cluster bombs have been cleared in Lebanon because Israel has refused to turn over cluster munitions strike data to the UN. These cluster bombs are given to Israel by the United States and paid for by U.S. taxpayers like you. When countries gather in early December to continue negotiating a global cluster bomb ban treaty, the U.S. will be conspicuously absent. The U.S. should not isolate itself on yet another issue of global concern. Congress needs to pass the Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Act (S.594) next year to bring the U.S. into line with the emerging global consensus against the use of a weapon which overwhelmingly kills civilians. *Call your senators on November 5 and ask them to support this bill.* Who Should You Call? - *Do you live in California or Vermont?* Both your senators are already supporting this bill, so you don't need to call them today. But you can write to your representativeand urge her or him to cosponsor the companion bill in the House. - *Do you live in Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Mexico, Ohio, Rhode Island, Washington, or Wisconsin? *One of your senators has already cosponsored, so please call your other senator! Senators that need calls are Charles Grassley (IA), Ben Cardin (MD), John Kerry (MA), Pete Domenici (NM), George Voinovich (OH), Jack Reed (RI), Patty Murray (WA), or Herb Kohl (WI). - *Do you live in any other state?* You should call both of your senators and ask them to cosponsor the bill! How to Make Your Calls - *Call your senators using FCNL's special toll free number: (800) 352-1897* - This number connects you to the Capitol Switchboard. You will need to ask for your senator by name. Find out who your senators are . - Once you are directed to the office, ask to speak to the legislative assistant who deals with military and national security issues. - After you call one senator's office, call back and ask for your other senator. Script for your Call Please feel free to improvise and add additional information. - My name is [NAME], and I live in [CITY, STATE].Thanks for taking my call. - I'm calling to encourage Senator [SENATOR'S NAME] to cosponsor S. 594, the Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Act. Will that be possible? - Thank you. The administration's position is that the military benefits outweigh the civilian costs. We disagree. Day of Action Cosponsors Adopt A Minefield, American Friends Service Committee, UNA-USA, American Task Force for Lebanon, Amnesty International USA, Just Foreign Policy, Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns, Maine Campaign to Ban Cluster Bombs, Massachusetts Peace Action, Mennonite Central Committee (Washington Office), Oregon Peace Works, Peace Action New York, Peace Action West, United for Peace and Justice, U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation, U.S. Fund for UNICEF, Veterans for Peace, WAND. More about Banning Cluster Bombs US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation DONATE| SUBSCRIBE| UNSUBSCRIBE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:23:53 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? Cheers, Wystan =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt to redraw them (if only as an experiment). For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to=20 > distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from=20 > the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to advantage. > Wystan > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 18:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree with Pete, it is quite necessary to be infuriated by these sorts of reductive understandings of a complex poetic form. If the common notion of this form its sort of bastardized version then a mistake has definitely been made. Not that I think Bly's work should be completely cut out of the picture, no not at all it is such reinventions and divergences that keep poetry alive. Instances of "making it new" (and making of new) are the lifeblood of poetic evolution. Nothing should stand as The Official Version, especially when the originators were against purity of form in general. As Pierre writes in his Nomad Manifesto "Purity is the root of all evil." > Perhaps my last post gave the impression that Bly and company “used” deep > image as a means of entering the mainstream American poetry establishment? > In this case, I suppose my argument is more that (whether deliberate or > not), folks like Bly and Merwin re-consider deep image in such a way that > it is more easily assimilated into mainstream poetry in the 1960’s and on. > When one reads Kelly and Rothenberg’s statements regarding deep image, > they literally refer to the struggle that is the poem’s composition. > There is a material, physical exchange with language and the image. This > exchange also makes demands upon the reader that is absent from Bly’s deep > image poetry, which I find affective at times. This is also why it > appears that Kelly and Rothenberg’s “struggle” with the deep image > influenced the Language Poets, as opposed to Bly and co.’s reconsideration > of deep image poetry. I am certainly not against someone having “new” or > divergent ideas; what concerns me is that all “official” histories of deep > image poetics (as opposed to books like D. Kane’s _All Poets Welcome_, > Rasula’s _American Poetry Wax Museum_, etc.) cite Bly as the originator of > deep image poetics. These same official histories even exclude the work > of folks like Zukofsky and the Objectivists, as well as Pound and Imagism, > which play a significant role in Kelly and Rothenberg’s formulations. As > an aside, there is also an interesting exchange between Levertov and > Duncan in their collected correspondence regarding Kelly and Rothenberg’s > development of deep image poetics. > > I am all for divergence, and I flinch at any demand for "purity" in > poetry. In fact, a close read of Kelly and Rothenberg's statements on > deep image demonstrates that the two of them and the other folks > associated with early deep image, never came to nor tried to develop a > "pure" and comprehensive "deep image poetics." Thus the very idea of a > deep image "school" of poetry already works against what Kelly and > Rothenberg were working on in their early formulations. My issue is with > the critics/editors who gloss over or write Kelly and Rothenberg out of > the deep image equation. It would be best if the history accounted for > the work of Kelly and Rothenberg, and incorporated the ways in which Bly > and co. develop a different sense of the deep image. I think my last > post was a reaction to surveying the tons o' poetry anthologies intended > for classroom use that simply delete Kelly and Rothenberg's work entirely > (particularly Kelly), and celebrate Bly as the only poet investigating > deep image. I don't think Bly and co. "knew" they could get into the > Norton on their formulation of deep image; I just wish Norton and other > anthologies did not come across as the final word in what constitutes > deep image poetics (particularly in the classroom and on bookshelves in > chain stores): there's so much more to it and it is, in my opinion, a > key chapter in Post-War and contemporary American poetry. > > Best to all, > Peter > Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:34:41 +0000> From: > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> Subject: Re: Deep Image (again)> To: > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > I find it infuriating that on this list > one immediately reaches for accusations of careerism and the like in order > to attribute motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it > enough to say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" > without having to say they developed this just because they knew that such > a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton Anthology? > > Peter > Monaco wrote: > > A cursory glance of most > poetry anthologies, as well as the various histories of Modern American > poetry that have been published since the 1960’s posit Bly as being the > deep image “school’s” leading poet and theorist. With the exception of > some initial interactions between Bly and Rothenberg, there is little in > Bly’s work to suggest that he fully grasped the core group’s attempt at > conceptualizing deep image poetics. The deep image poetics associated with > Bly, in fact, can either be considered a misreading of Rothenberg and > Kelly’s statements, or indeed a serious divergence down another path. For > Bly, a kind of solitude is necessary in deep image poetics. Although Kelly > and Rothenberg allude to energy and movement in relation to the poetic > image in their conception of the deep image, Bly omits the participatory > aspect of the image. Bly, the hero-poet, descends to the depths of the > unconscious and performs an act of recovery and articulation for the > reader, as opposed to the> demand for participation in the composition of > the poetic space that Kelly, Rothenberg, Owens, and Schwerner demand in > their own work. For all of the paths Bly’s deep image poetics attempts to > reveal in the on-going struggle to re-connect humans to the cosmological > world, the main thrust of his poetics relies instead on “plugging” the > image into a pre-existing mythological system based much more firmly on > Jung’s theory of the archetype and the collective unconscious (see Bly’s > _Iron John_). In fact, the casual way in which some dismiss the deep image > as a pedestrian deployment of Jungian archetypal psychology and the latent > structuralism of anthropologists like Levi-Strauss, can be directly > attributed to Bly’s misreading.> > Bly and Wright (Bly’s “co-conspirator”) > neglect the community-based origins of deep image poetics. Publications > like Kelly and Economou’s Trobar and the various poetry readings that the > core group held imply that at the foundation of deep image poetics is the > concept that each of these spaces constitutes a site of resistance to the > absorption of Modern American poetry into the academy. Similarly, each of > these spaces opens up an arena for on-going conversations among poets and > text, broadly defined. By placing translations of pre-modern, esoteric, > troubadour, as well as Surrealist poetry and the work of figures like > Lorca alongside essays and poems which also consider the function of the > rejected knowledge that fuels the mythopoetic revolution (Gnostic texts, > alchemical treatises, ritual chant and song) and the inherent politics of > re-opening a dialogue with the “Other,” the performance spaces of the deep > image group hinge upon participation and conversation to further the> > opening of the poetic field, towards Duncan’s “symposium of the whole.” > However, Bly and Wright initiate a deep image poetics that joins the rank > of Bernstein’s “official verse culture.” Bly and Wright use their > misreading of deep image poetry to carve out a niche in the official > (read: Norton) American poetry institution and to develop careers as > “officially accredited” poets, thus re-affirming the more egocentric > “hero-poet” model impertinent to Kelly, Rothenberg, and Economou’s sense > of poetic community.> > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:43:38 -0500> From: > jorispierre@MAC.COM> Subject: Re: Deep Image (again)> To: > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Rothenberg & Kelly used it briefly – a few > essays in Trobar, plus a > letter exchange with Creeley and some other > material. But neither of > them were into founding a school or movement as > such. Back then, Bly > was somewhat close to them, and, as far as I know, > once JR & RK lost > interest in formalizing their first insights and got > busy elsewhere, > Bly ran with the concept. I have a graduate student > working on a diss > around Deep Image right now, & I hope he will come up > with a > publishable book that would include all the essays & > correspondence > around DI – which I believe was an important moment in > post-War US > poetry & poetics. In Clayton Eshleman's new collection of > essays, > ARCHAIC DESIGN (Black Widow Press), Clayton, in a foornote to > his > piece on Olson, cites a recent letter from RK in which the latter > > quotes Olson's> response to his "Notes on the Poetry of Deep Image" : > > "not imageS but image." Which shows I believe a very accurate > > understanding of the original Deep Image project – while the later > > counterfeiters (Bly, Merwin etc) have gotten it exactly wrong: they > are > all about imageS. – Pierre> > On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:04 AM, Diane DiPrima > wrote:> > > Thank you for that, Pierre.> >> > And just how does a term > like “Deep Image” come to be re-used in > > such an> > unlikely context? > And why?> >> > Surely Ammons, et al., could have found some snappy new > phrase of > > their very> > own? Or, one wonders, was it an attempt to > bury, to rewrite the story?> >> >> > Diane di Prima> >> >> >> >> >> > > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:19:44 -0400> > From: Pierre Joris > > Subject: > Re: Deep image, part 11: question........> >> > Ammons, Merwin & co. have > to my my knowledge not influenced the L-=20> > poets. The original Deep > Image poets, that is Jerome Rothenberg & =20> > Robert Kelly (before the > name> got hijacked by Bly, Merwin etc) have > > =20> > however been > important in different ways for some of the L-poets. > > =96 =20=> >> > > Pierre> >> > On Nov 2, 2007, at 10:59 AM, steve russell wrote:> >> >> i'm > always writing in a rush. i never addressed my "deep image vs. > >> =20> > >> LANGUAGE" post. Merwin, James Wright: these 2 poets have had =20> >> > the most significant influence over my way of looking at =20> >> poetry. > But deep image poetry strikes me as a largely intuitive =20> >> > enterprise, a way of looking at the major poets who came into =20> >> > prominence during the sixties. I'm curious: HAS MERWIN been an =20> >> > influence in the LANGUAGE school? & what about my favorite =20> >> > iconoclast, A R AMMONS, a singular voice who, as far as I know, has > >> > =20=> >> >> never been lumped into any particular kind of poetics. Has he > =20> >> influenced Language poets?> >>> >> > __________________________________________________> >> Do You Yahoo!?> >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo!> Mail has the best spam protection around> >> > http://mail.yahoo.com> >> > > ___________________________________________________________> >> > The > poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> > > ___________________________________________________________> > Pierre > Joris> > 244 Elm Street> > Albany NY 12202> > h: 518 426 0433> > c: 518 > 225 7123> > o: 518 442 40 71> > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> > > email: joris@albany.edu> > http://pierrejoris.com> > Nomadics blog: > http://pjoris.blogspot.com> > > ____________________________________________________________> > > ___________________________________________________________> > The poet: > always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan> > ___________________________________________________________> Pierre Joris> > 244 Elm Street> Albany NY 12202> h: 518 426 0433> c: 518 225 7123> o: 518 > 442 40 71> Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10> email: joris@albany.edu> > http://pierrejoris.com> Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com>> > ____________________________________________________________> > _________________________________________________________________> > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!> > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get > it now. > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:32:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: The Great Paper Scare of 2525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A poem that could reproduce here, but the whole effect is much better on the blog: http://denacht.blogspot.com. Jesse Crockett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:15:19 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Quite. I've been reading so much and such various prose recently- Arto Paasilinna, Marguerite Yourcenar, David Albahari, Atiq Rahimi, Michele Desbordes and many others - that such distinctions seem meaninglessly self-aggrandising. Poetry holds no inherent virtue just because it's poetry.There's no firm dividing line between the conventions that say something is prose and something else is poetry. And all these are permeable to "external circumstances" (whatever they are?) Cheers A On Nov 6, 2007 10:23 AM, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > Cheers, Wystan > > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:57:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Peter Schjeldahl, A Poetry Conundrum & Other Schtuff Awaits you at JBP blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Various aeolian blasts from the past register on a harp of some sort I constructed out of an old Guinness can and a transducer I found in a robot's head....this led on to a poetry conundrum and some wondering whether certain poets are dead or alive and not really wanting to know the answer...so don't tell me but stop in and gloat at _http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/_ (http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/) "Cegeste, Levez-vous Dammit!" ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:56:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: dbCinema images In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0711050623j616e398r778d688e0ac812e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Very beautiful Jim, I love the chalk-like textures and the dim glimpses of > text. Thanks, Peter. I've written a brush whose shape is whatever text you type in, but i haven't made anything interesting with it so far. Partly that was because, like the other brushes, it was painting at 30+ frames per second. So it'd lay down an awful lot of text very quickly; the texts were too dense on the screen to be readable or even discernable, sometimes, as text. Last night I put in a 'frames per second' control for each brush, so a brush can now lay down strokes/text at whatever pace seems appropriate. Am slowly working toward each brush you create having its own 'palette'. The idea is that a 'palette' can be a search term--so that the brush 'paints' with images downloaded via that search term; or a palette can be a bunch of images from a directory on the hard drive; or a palette can be a color or a gradient. So, like, you could create one brush and make its palette the word "good" (so it'd paint with images downloaded from the net associated with the word "good"); another brush might have an "evil" palette. ding. they come out painting. the battle of the brushes, the battle of "good" versus "evil". the brushes themselves might be text brushes--so that the "good" brush makes paint strokes in the shape of the word "good" where the word-shapes/'paint strokes' are filled with images associated with the word "good"--or they might be different shapes other than text. ja http://vispo.com/dbcinema/meditations.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 18:12:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to draw a line where one is useful. perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > Cheers, Wystan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >> > advantage. > >> Wystan >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:12:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrea Rexilius Subject: Parcel Two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline New things at PARCEL www.parceljournal.org PARCEL TWO Featuring poetry by Emily Anderson, Erin M. Bertram, Christophe Casamassima, Carol Ciavonne, Mark Cunningham, Carrie Hunter, Nicholas Manning, Kristi Maxwell, Srikanth Reddy, El=E9na Rivera, Susan Scarlata, Brandon Shimoda, Eleni Sikelianos, and Laura Sims, reviews by Anne Heide and Jen Tynes and featured visual artists Matthew Gottschalk and Bin Ramke. =09=09=09=09=09& A PARCEL CHAPBOOK "The Holy Spirit does not deal in synonimes" : Notes by Elizabeth Barrett in the Margins of her Greek and Hebrew Bibles --transcribed by Lisa Fishman Now available as a limited edition chapbook (50 copies) at www.parceljourna= l.org To order send $5 to: Parcel c/o Andrea Rexilius 2174 S. Grant St. Denver, CO 80210 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:05:21 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wystan: It's a little difficult to continue this conversation without any definite sense of what the world that prose apparently rules is and how prose can be said to rule it. But I have to question whether it's valuable to bend one's work in a particular way for the sake of power to rule [over something], which I see as distinct from the sort of power that vibrates between the poem and the reader until at least one has the top of their head cut off. As for the purposes served by my divergent reading styles, I would say it has more to do with my craft interest as a writer than with "time management and personal entertainment value". Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:18:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Do not fill the refusal to talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Do not fill the refusal to talk -- Peter Ciccariello Invisible Notes Liminal Spaces Hope Street, Poems from Providence ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: dbCinema images In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Is this software you have written? Is it similar to Photoshop brushes? - Peter On Nov 5, 2007 8:56 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > Very beautiful Jim, I love the chalk-like textures and the dim glimpses > of > > text. > > Thanks, Peter. I've written a brush whose shape is whatever text you type > in, but i haven't made anything interesting with it so far. Partly that > was > because, like the other brushes, it was painting at 30+ frames per second. > So it'd lay down an awful lot of text very quickly; the texts were too > dense > on the screen to be readable or even discernable, sometimes, as text. Last > night I put in a 'frames per second' control for each brush, so a brush > can > now lay down strokes/text at whatever pace seems appropriate. > > Am slowly working toward each brush you create having its own 'palette'. > The > idea is that a 'palette' can be a search term--so that the brush 'paints' > with images downloaded via that search term; or a palette can be a bunch > of > images from a directory on the hard drive; or a palette can be a color or > a > gradient. > > So, like, you could create one brush and make its palette the word "good" > (so it'd paint with images downloaded from the net associated with the > word > "good"); another brush might have an "evil" palette. ding. they come out > painting. the battle of the brushes, the battle of "good" versus "evil". > > the brushes themselves might be text brushes--so that the "good" brush > makes > paint strokes in the shape of the word "good" where the word-shapes/'paint > strokes' are filled with images associated with the word "good"--or they > might be different shapes other than text. > > ja > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/meditations.htm > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 00:24:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Claustrophobic alphabet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Claustrophobic alphabet Images - Peter Ciccariello Music - Alan Sondheim -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:02:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Do not fill the refusal to talk In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0711052018i2139caebs7ed926410bd635a3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Do not fill the refusal to talk http://cgi7.com/peterimages/Do-not-fill-the-refusal-to-.jpg That's evocative, Peter. It reminds me of the industrial downtown of big cities. And the role of thought there. Usually thought in industrial scenarios is of engineering and steel/concrete withstanding the forces at play. And lots of crash and bang, materials worn. Interesting to see typographic symbols in such a situation. It also reminds me of when I saw Joe Keppler's back yard some time ago. He's a poet-sculptor. Steel is his main material. Looking out the kitchen window at the back yard, I saw a big kind of dump of 'raw material' for his sculpture. Lots of scrap steel, but it had already started to bend to language. It was strikingly like junk steel but also there were sort of creaks and groans and bends of language in there already. Parts of other architectures. Engineering architectures and writerly/sculptural architectures. How typographic symbols hold an image, create and hold an image. The piece I'm working on also fills language with images from the net. You also are filling language with images. Interesting how the two types of images and languages start to 'speak' at once: the meanings and images of typographic language and the meanings and images of visual language. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:52:24 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: also Sean Cole In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for Sean info-- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:53:39 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: <472FCDA3.2090500@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jason: "If I read something about "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to But from my observation - as a reader and a writer of prose and poetry - novels are composed at the level of the _sentence_, not the paragraph - and what about people like Jose Saramago or David Albahari, who don't use paragraphs at all? (As Patrick White said - one of the most illuminating and helpful things I've ever read about writing novels - a novel is written sentence by sentence.) You could perhaps make the beginnings of a distinction here, by saying that - as I believe - poetry is composed in lines (I don't think poetry has much to do with sentences at all, frankly). Even if, as in a prose poem, it's a very long line. Or you could say with Olson that poetry is composed in the syllable and the ear, which might take care of the flash poetry. I don't think either art is about "the nature of information" they "convey". Both _are_ something. Yes, they differ, but I've never read a satisfactory account of what that difference is. Maybe the crudest is best -there's something encyclopaedic about novels, they amass detail, while poems discard it. Elizabeth, I don't understand what you mean - are you saying the decision to write prose is about a desire for power? What kind of prose do you mean? What kind of power? There are prose works that equally "vibrate" with the reader, that are as multiple as any poems. Maybe you're referring to a particular kind of prose and I am thinking of another. I presume we're talking about what's generally and perhaps a little depressingly known as "creative prose". I've no objection to distinctions. I do however find claims that poetry is somehow inherently superior to prose (it doesn't seek power, it relinquishes some kind of control, prose is a vehicle, poetry the passenger, whatever) irksome. As are claims to the reverse. All best A -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:03:44 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Paul Blackburn In-Reply-To: <200711060135.lA61Zfw04134@cispub.cpfsinc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am wondering if those who know of poems of Paul's over the years that did not appear in the collected by Jarolim would be willing to send me copies and also where they first appeared in. I am working on a new collected with some of of his friends and will leave it at that. All those with these types of donations will appear in print in a University Press if all works the way I suppose it will. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:55:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mathew Timmons Subject: Late Night Snack One Year Celebration! Thur Nov 15 at 9:30pm Sharp! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Late Night Snack One Year Celebration! Thursday, November 15 at 9:30pm Sharp! at Betalevel (directions below) http://betalevel.com/2007/11/15/late-night-snack-22/ =85 and none before you lost your peanut butter to no longer allowed in calories. I end up a meeting. Leszek Bzdyl, Choreograph, dancer and a row of loosening them up sitting there with new forms attacked the risk of saltines is completely special life assistance and sandwiches. An evening come along Songrevue with ungeschminkten experience reports, just alone. And none before period of Bzd=FCl=F6w converted a rare Magnolie grows and costumes presented The arti= st, still do, just alone. And confessionful Titelsong is worthwhile oneself again! With that it all itself. In the form singular, surprising movement motion. Also this year pleases of the bag is. Bodo, one the special life assistance and that snack= . If you pass more calories than 2 weeks. This method may not be much easier to increase ye sale of day does not be for everyone because it will be careful I give in a little muenster cheese. From what I've been reading (from multiple resources), time of performance, such as songs and then wait a spark hope. Does it and musical a cage of ye sale of food never gets worked off. Especially since youre only the form of protein. Sometimes with some fruit or just like with view into the country widely most successful Comedians, moves. Above all innovations - the old. In the kitchen, drink a cup of full by the contemporary layman play. Justice has lots of food you world improvement theoreticians and faith is why they are a great way to =85 At Late Night Snack on October 25, 2007: Sandy Ding screened two films, accompanied by Laura Steenberge on bass. Heather Lockie played banjo and sang, accompanied by Laura Steenberge on bass. Mitsu Salmon performed. Marcus Civin read. =85 At Late Night Snack on October 11, 2007: Susanne Hall read and presented a movie with Ryan Adlaf. Harold Abramowitz and Mathew Timmons collaborated. Amanda Ackerman read. Jason Brown lectured about poetry and memory. Michelle Detorie read. =85 At Late Night Snack on September 27, 2007: Gerard Olson read. Michael Smole= r read. Catherine Daly read. Laura Steenberge & Heather Lockie composed and performed a film score. Michael Kelleher read. Emily Lacy played guitar and banjo and sang. =85 At Late Night Snack on September 13, 2007: Liz Glynn performed Untitled. Ara Shirinyan read. Eileen Myles read. =85 At Late Nigh= t Snack on August 7, 2007: Harold Abramowitz and Mathew Timmons collaborated. Amanda Ackerman read. Ara Shirinyan presented a paper. Jenny Hodges showed slides and read. Everyone collaborated with the internet. =85 At Late Night Snack on July 24, 2007: Mary Kite showed a video and read. Laura Steenberge played bass and Heather Lockie played fiddle, they both sang. Jane Sprague read. Franklin Bruno played guitar and sang. =85 At Late Night Snack on Jul= y 10, 2007: Danielle Adair read and danced. Maximus Kim presented his manifesto. C.J. Pizarro told 3 jokes, read 3 poems and sang 3 songs. Stan Apps read. =85 At Late Nig ht Snack on June 26, 2007: Alyssandra Nighswonger played guitar and sang. Jane Sprague presented Syria is in the World by Ara Shirinyan. Ara Shirinya= n read from Syria is in the World by Ara Shirinyan. The Year Zero played music. Alan Semerdjian & Will Alexander created music. =85 At Late Night Sn= ack on June 12, 2007: A film by Danielle Adair. Will Alexander gave a lecture. Laura Steenberge played bass and sang. Todd Collins read. Stan Apps read. Lee Ann Brown did string tricks. Tony Torn and Lee Ann Brown presented a reading. =85 At Late Night Snack on May 29, 2007: A film by Nick Flavin. Ja= ne Sprague performed. Laura Steenberge gave a lecture. Emily Lacy played banjo and sang. Will Alexander read. =85 At Late Night Snack on May 15, 2007: Ara Shirinyan read. Laura Steenberge played guitar and sang. Emily Lacy spontaneously played guitar and sang. Dan Richert's hi-tech hut made sound. =85 At Late Night Snack on April 24, 2007: A film by Danielle Adair. Laura Steenberge played stand-up bass and sang. Teresa Carmody read. Sean Deyoe performed karaoke. Stan Apps read. Sandy Ding performed the Flash Light Sho= w with Laura Steenberge. =85 At Late Night Snack on April 10, 2007: Emily Lac= y played banjo and sang. Jen Hofer and Billy Mark created spontaneous poetry. WAMPA staged the Dialectical Fuss. Frederique de Montblanc and Janne Larsen presented the Masculinihilist Manifesto. =85 At Late Night Snack on March 2= 0, 2007: Maximus Kim explained his manifesto. Ara Shirinyan. Milly Saunders read. Frederique de Montblanc and Janne Larsen presented a film. Jen Hofer read, assisted by William Mark. =85 At Late Night Snack on March 6, 2007: Mathew Timmons read. Oliver Hall played guitar and sang. Emily Lacy played banjo and sang. Stan Apps lectured spontaneously. =85 At Late Night Snack o= n Feb 20, 2007: Michael Smoler read handmade tarot cards and projected them o= n the wall. Emily Lacy played banjo and sang. Ara Shirinyan read. Jane Spragu= e read, assisted by Marcus Civin. =85 At Late Night Snack on Feb 6, 2007: Mar= cus Civin performed. Oliver Hall played guitar and sang. Roy Lanoy (Stan Apps) read from the WAMPA mailbag and dispensed advice. Alex Maslansky played guitar and sang. Nature's Nobleman, Sir Oliver Hall, read from his WAMPA Conference address. Emily Lacy played banjo and sang. Teresa Carmody and Vanessa Place presented Turkey Trot. =85 At Late Night Snack on Jan 16, 200= 7: Marcus Civin performed, Oliver Hall played guitar and sang, Lloyd Ducal (Joseph Mosconi) and Roy Lanoy (Stan Apps) presented the tenets of WAMPA, Michael Smoler read handmade tarot cards and projected them on the wall, Darin Klein presented Untitled Performance with Stan Apps, Jesse Aron Green= , Steven Reigns, and Christopher Russell, Emily Lacy played banjo, fiddle, an= d sang =85 At Late Night Snack on Dec 19, 2006: Oliver Hall played guitar and sang, Cat Lamb and Lewis Keller performed a composition for viola and electrified cymbal/electronics, Stan Apps read, Khanh Tran performed a recital on the theremin =85 At Late Night Snack on Dec 5, 2006: Oliver Hall played guitar and sang, Michael Smoler read handmade tarot cards and projected them on the wall, "Ghost drawings 'were' brought fourth throught the ouija board assisted by christian cummings and michael decker.", Teresa Carmody and Vanessa Place played Judgment Day Bingo with the audience, Ara Shirinyan read =85 At Late Night Snack on Nov 21, 2006: Ara Shirinyan read, Sandy Ding performed the Flash Light Show, Oliver Hall played guitar and sang. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Directions to Betalevel 1. Find yourself in front of "FULL HOUSE RESTAURANT" located at 963 N. Hill Street in Chinatown, Los Angeles 2. Locate the narrow alley on the left hand side of Full House. 3. Walk about 20 feet down the alley (away from the street). 4. Stop. 5. Notice dumpster on your right hand side. 6. Take a right and continue down the alley. 7. Exercise caution so as not trip on the wobbly cement blocks underfoot 8. The entrance to Betalevel is located 10 yards down on left side, behind a red door, down a black staircase. _______________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 19:26:32 +1000 Reply-To: JFK Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JFK Organization: Poet In Residence Subject: Link to share MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Here's a link to 'Dive' if you get in the mood for a bit of maritime immersion while you work. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/poetica/stories/2007/2054828.htm Dive is a sound poem featuring whales, eels, fish, dolphins, snapping shrimp, icebergs and other assorted marine animals, scientists, music, noise and environmental sounds. The poetry is being read by Marine archivist Shelagh Smith, who is incredible. There's a brief interview about the creation of 'Dive' which was developed between 2004-2006 after a residency at the Cornell Ornithology Lab. I hope you are near a good sound system. The link won't be up for long Best wishes Jayne Fenton Keane www.poetinresidence.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 23:07:03 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: what do you think of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for being so indefinite, Elizabeth, but conversations--and I know = 'discussion group' exchanges give the mere illusion of = conversation--conversations do need to roll with their indefiniteness. I = mean what did tomas mean by prose? I don't really know, he was lots = more gnomic that I was. But just for starters, in answer to your = question: it is obvious that there's a great deal of prose about, so = much you'd hardly know poetry even existed--prose is quantitatively = dominant. It certainly rules in my workplace--a university--how is it in = yours? It certainly, as fiction, dominates contemporary literature. I = know it sounds like a monster already, with many heads, and special powers (Jason suspects post-structuralist = powers!), but in the meantime you could cut me some hyperbole. Wystan =20 ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Elizabeth Switaj Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 5:05 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of Wystan: It's a little difficult to continue this conversation without = any definite sense of what the world that prose apparently rules is and how prose can be said to rule it. But I have to question whether it's = valuable to bend one's work in a particular way for the sake of power to rule = [over something], which I see as distinct from the sort of power that vibrates between the poem and the reader until at least one has the top of their = head cut off. As for the purposes served by my divergent reading styles, I would say = it has more to do with my craft interest as a writer than with "time = management and personal entertainment value". Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 23:28:58 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: what do you think of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jason (1) for my money, the impulse to collapse distinctions is also the = impulse to replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing about = meaning that drove me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear you = have found some better philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout = myself.... Anyway, I don't find=20 the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas = then? Or Faulkner. But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and fiction at = all, but between poetry and=20 expository prose. Cheers, Wystan =20 ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to draw a line where one is useful. perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. Wystan Curnow wrote: >=20 > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its = boundaries > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management = and > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being = served? > Cheers, Wystan =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group = [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that = enough > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how = I > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. = My > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where = I've > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > =20 >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >> =20 > advantage. > =20 >> Wystan >> >> >> =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:50:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: mitch highfeld In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is Mitch Highfeild out there or could some one e-mail me his address-- greatly appreciated -- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 04:31:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: dbCinema images In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0711052037k611176b1p868d4eebf699d16a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Is this software you have written? Is it similar to Photoshop brushes? Yes, it is software I'm writing called dbCinema. And it's related to Photoshop brushes, but dbCinema brushes are different. The basic idea of Photoshop brushes is that you paint with a brush whose shape is drawn from a preset set of brushes or you can make your own brush shapes. And it draws in the color of your choosing. Also, you can size Photoshop brushes and change their opacity. You can also make Photoshop brushes rotate. In this, dbCinema brushes are the same as Photoshop brushes. You can do some things with Photoshop brushes that you can't do with dbCinema brushes and vice versa. dbCinema brushes go beyond Photoshop brushes in some ways. For instance, you can use multiple dbCinema brushes at once, and the location of brushes can either be mouse-controlled or they can traverse a configurable path chosen from a set of dbCinema 'geometries'. Also, what dbCinema brushes are filled with can be parts of images downloaded from the net, not just a particular color. dbCinema brushes are mainly for painting 'movies' rather than for creating still images. Though they can also create some interesting still images. The position of Photoshop brushes is always mouse-controlled. They're not meant to be generative art oriented (where part of the idea is to get algorithms to be at least partially active in the art creation). I came across some related work tonight you and others might find of interest. Here is the eponymous site of a USAmerican artist-programmer: http://davebollinger.com . There are quite a few striking images and animated, sometimes interactive applets on Dave Bollinger's site. He is involved in 'generative art'. He writes programs (usually using the Java-based 'Processing' programming language) that generate visual art. There's also a well-done blog at http://www.generatorx.no masterminded by Marius Watz, a well-known artist-programmer. This blog has a wealth of articles and links to generative art projects and other projects usually involving programming. Whenever something is drawing (or writing) something, you might as well say a 'brush' or a 'pen' is being used to do the drawing or painting or whatever. So, in a sense, generative visual art is all about creating new types of brushes or pens. Which of course can also be writing implements, and sometimes are even as they draw or paint or whatever. The guitar; the electric guitar. The pen; the digital pen. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:24:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Meritage Press Announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Meritage Press Announcement=20 TINY BOOKS RELEASES FIFTH TITLE FOR POETRY TO KEEP FEEDING THE WORLD Meritage Press (MP) is pleased to announce the fifth title in its series of= =20 Tiny Books that aligns poetry with fair trade and economic development issu= es=20 affecting Third World countries. =20 MP's Tiny Books utilize small books (1 3/4" x 1 3/4") made in Nepal by=20 artisans paid fair wages, as sourced by Baksheesh, a fair trade retailer. P= hotos=20 of a sample "Tiny Book" are available at=20 _http://www.flickr.com/photos/lolabola/1618955048/in/photostream/_=20 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lolabola/1618955048/in/photostream/) as well= as at Crg Hill's Poetry Scorecard at=20 _http://scorecard.typepad.com/crag_hills_poetry_score/haynaku/index.html_ ( http://scorecard.typepad.com/crag_hills_poetry_score/haynaku/index.html) . =20 All profits from book sales will be donated to Heifer International, an =20 organization devoted to reducing world hunger by promoting sustainable sourc= es of=20 food and income. This project reflects MP's belief that "Poetry feeds the =20 world" in non-metaphorical ways. The Tiny Books create demand for fair trade= =20 workers' products while also sourcing donations for easing poverty in poorer= =20 areas of the world.=20 We are delighted to announce that MP's fifth Tiny Book is =20 some hay By Lars Palm Lars Palm lives in southern Sweden where he works in health care, writes=20 (mostly smallish) silly poems, translates some Swedish poets, edits a blog=20= zine=20 called skicka (in english) & at times publishes the first broadside series=20= in=20 the country. He's the author of mindfulness (moria, 2006), on stealing lips= =20 (The Martian Press, 2006) & is beside the point (Big Game Books Tinyside 34= ,=20 2007). Another, death is, is forthcoming from by the skin of me teeth press= =20 sometime soon. MP's other Tiny Books, which also are still available, are =20 all alone again=20 by Dan Waber and Steps: A Notebook =20 by Tom Beckett =20 and "=E2=80=A6And Then The Wind Did Blow..." =20 Jainak=C3=BA Poems by Ernesto Priego and Speak which Hay(na)ku poems by Jill Jones Each Tiny Book will cost $10 plus $1.00 shipping/handling in the U.S. (emai= l=20 us first for non-U.S. orders). To purchase the Tiny Books and donate to=20 Heifer International, send a check for $11.00 per book, made out to "Merita= ge=20 Press" to =20 Eileen Tabios=20 Meritage Press=20 256 North Fork Crystal Springs Rd. =20 St. Helena, CA 94574 U.S.A. Please specify which of the five Tiny Books you are ordering. With Tiny Books, MP also offers a new DIY, or Do-It-Yourself Model of=20 publishing. You've heard of POD or print-on-demand? Well, these books' prin= t runs=20 will be based on HOD or Handwritten-on-Demand. MP's publisher, Eileen Tabio= s,=20 will handwrite all texts into the Tiny Books' pages and books will be=20 released to meet demand for as long as MP is able to source tiny books -- o= r until=20 the publisher gets arthritis. =20 FUNDAISING UPDATE: In addition to providing livestock, Heifer International also provides=20 trees. As of Nov. 5, 2007, Meritage Press' Tiny Books program has sold eno= ugh=20 Tiny Books to finance the donation equivalent of seven sets of tree-gifts.=20= =20 Here's what Heifer has to say about trees: One of Heifer International=E2=80=99s most important commitments is to care= for the=20 earth. We believe development must be sustainable =E2=80=94 that projects s= hould be=20 long-term investments in the future of people and the planet.That=E2=80=99s= why in=20 addition to livestock, Heifer often provides families with trees. On a stee= p=20 Tanzanian hillside, Heifer International helped a family learn to plant tre= es=20 and elephant grass to keep the soil in place. Today, they have flourishing=20= rows=20 of leucaena trees and corn.Through training, families learn how to keep=20 their small plots of land healthy and renew the soil for future generations= by=20 planting trees, using natural fertilizer, and limiting grazing.By helping=20 families raise their animals in harmony with nature, you can fight poverty=20= and=20 hunger while ensuring a healthy, productive future for us all.=20 Then of course there are the chickens, goats, water buffalos, pigs, ducks,=20 honeybees, llamas....all of which can help ease hunger around the world. =20 Meritage Press thanks you in advance for your support and hopes you enjoy T= iny=20 Books -- small enough to become jewelry, but with poems big enough to reson= ate=20 worldwide. ***** ABOUT THE TINY BOOK AUTHORS: Dan Waber is a visual poet, concrete poet, sound poet, performance poet,=20 publisher, editor, playwright and multimedia artist whose work has appeared= in=20 all sorts of delicious places, from digital to print, from stage to classro= om,=20 from mailboxes to puppet theaters. He is currently working on "and =20 everywhere in between". He makes his online home at logolalia.com. Meritage=20= Press=20 tapped Mr. Waber to inaugurate the series partly for his work in minimalist= =20 poetry.=20 Tom Beckett is the author of Unprotected Texts: Selected Poems 1978~2006=20 (Meritage Press, 2006), and the curator of E-X-C-H-A-N-G-E-V-A-L-U-E-S: The= =20 First XI Interviews (Otoliths, 2007). From 1980-1990, he was the editor/pub= lisher=20 of the now legendary critical journal, The Difficulties. Steps: A Notebook=20 is Tom Beckett's first hay(na)ku poetry collection. =20 Ernesto Priego was born in Mexico City. He lives in London. He blogs at=20 Never Neutral (http://neverneutral.wordpress.com/) and is the author of the= first=20 single-author hay(na)ku poetry collection, Not Even Dogs =20 (http://meritagepress.com/notevendogs.htm). The "jainak=C3=BA" is Mexico's=20= version of the hay(na)ku=20 poetic form. Jill Jones' latest book, Broken/Open (Salt, 2005), was short-listed for The= =20 Age Book of the Year 2005 and the 2006 Kenneth Slessor Poetry Prize. In 199= 3=20 she won the Mary Gilmore Award for her first book of poetry, The Mask and t= he=20 Jagged Star (Hazard Press, 1992). Her third book, The Book of Possibilities= =20 (Hale & Iremonger, 1997), was shortlisted for the 1997 National Book Counci= l=20 'Banjo' Awards and the 1998 Adelaide Festival Awards. Screens, Jets, Heaven= :=20 New and Selected Poems (Salt, 2002) won the 2003 Kenneth Slessor Poetry Pri= ze=20 (NSW Premier's Literary Awards). Her work has been translated into Chinese,= =20 Dutch, Polish, French, Italian and Spanish. For more information: MeritagePress@aol.com=20 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 05:43:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm incredibly lazy. I simply refer to Bloom's canon. Faulkner/fiction. Rilke/Auden: poetry. Life is so much easier for the bookish. Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my money, the impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing about meaning that drove me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear you have found some better philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout myself.... Anyway, I don't find the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas then? Or Faulkner. But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and fiction at all, but between poetry and expository prose. Cheers, Wystan ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to draw a line where one is useful. perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > Cheers, Wystan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >> > advantage. > >> Wystan >> >> >> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 05:46:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: what do you think of (et al) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aren't we forgetting something- namely that poetry was FIRST, and if anybody needs to distinguish themselves its these prose mutants. On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:28 AM, Wystan Curnow wrote: > Jason (1) for my money, the impulse to collapse distinctions is > also the impulse to > replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing > about meaning that drove > me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear > you have found some better > philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout > myself.... Anyway, I don't find > the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas > then? Or Faulkner. > But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > fiction at all, but between poetry and > expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > > ________________________________ > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is > drawn and > making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with > Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post > structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions > are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing > about > the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or > useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and > lazy > & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has > line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and > flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with > something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > relates to > the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such > an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a > way to > draw a line where one is useful. > > perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > honestly, my > reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them > both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for > me, > the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works > also > when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just > as if > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > composed at > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: >> >> >> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >> boundaries >> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry >> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >> don't >> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry >> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >> management and >> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >> served? >> Cheers, Wystan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: what do you think of >> >> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do >> you >> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the >> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >> enough >> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >> attempt >> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >> >> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >> how I >> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >> them. My >> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where >> I've >> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say >> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >> >> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >> >> >> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >> >>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>> >> advantage. >> >>> Wystan >>> >>> >>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 06:52:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with respect... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i say this with some degree of deference: isn't poetry more musical? poets count. novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, plot. the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my money, the impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing about meaning that drove me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear you have found some better philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout myself.... Anyway, I don't find the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas then? Or Faulkner. But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and fiction at all, but between poetry and expository prose. Cheers, Wystan ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to draw a line where one is useful. perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > Cheers, Wystan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >> > advantage. > >> Wystan >> >> >> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:14:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: Do not fill the refusal to talk In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, You said: "images and languages start to 'speak' Yes, that "inbetween" is what I am concentrating on, the interior space, the inner voice, the point where the brain begins to recognize recognizes language and demands meaning. - Peter On Nov 6, 2007 12:02 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > Do not fill the refusal to talk > http://cgi7.com/peterimages/Do-not-fill-the-refusal-to-.jpg > > That's evocative, Peter. It reminds me of the industrial downtown of big > cities. And the role of thought there. Usually thought in industrial > scenarios is of engineering and steel/concrete withstanding the forces at > play. And lots of crash and bang, materials worn. Interesting to see > typographic symbols in such a situation. > > It also reminds me of when I saw Joe Keppler's back yard some time ago. > He's > a poet-sculptor. Steel is his main material. Looking out the kitchen > window > at the back yard, I saw a big kind of dump of 'raw material' for his > sculpture. Lots of scrap steel, but it had already started to bend to > language. It was strikingly like junk steel but also there were sort of > creaks and groans and bends of language in there already. Parts of other > architectures. Engineering architectures and writerly/sculptural > architectures. > > How typographic symbols hold an image, create and hold an image. The piece > I'm working on also fills language with images from the net. You also are > filling language with images. Interesting how the two types of images and > languages start to 'speak' at once: the meanings and images of typographic > language and the meanings and images of visual language. > > ja > http://vispo.com > -- NEW RELEASE UNCOMMON VISION - The Art of Peter Ciccariello http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ 66 pp. 42 color plates. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 23:27:27 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Alison: I don't think that the decision to write prose is about a desire for power: I was attempting to clarify what Wystan meant about prose ruling the world and to consider some of the potential implications of that and the rest of what he had to say. Wystan: yes, conversations do often involve a degree of indefiniteness, but I really can't have a discussion with you if I don't know what you're talking about. If you're talking about sheer volume, which seems to be the implication of your most recent email, I'm still not really sure how that's a recommendation for blurring boundaries. Nor do I think you have any "powers": it's simply that your email seemed to imply that seeking power was a reasonable aim for one's writing (in that a poet should blur boundaries with prose since prose "rules"). If I misunderstood, I'm sorry, but that's what happens when one rolls with indefiniteness, I'm afraid. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:15:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: poets and musicians perform to benefit Action AIDS on 11/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline been working my butt off with AD Amarosi and Betsy Andrews to put this together, and we hope you can make this if you're in the area! It's going to be a FANTASTIC NIGHT! And we REALLY NEED to help Action AIDS! ALL DETAILS ALSO UP ON http://CAConradEVENTS.blogspot.com with links, etc... BENEFIT FOR ACTION AIDS http://www.actionaids.org/ Action AIDS is an invaluable Philadelphia resource for those living with HIV. They need our help to keep the doors open, and we've created a fantastic night of MUSIC, POETRY and PERFORMANCE for you! NOVEMBER 13TH, 2007 STARTING AT 8PM THE BALCONEY (UPSTAIRS AT THE TROCADERO) 1003 ARCH STREET CHINATOWN, PHILADELPHIA BRING YOUR FRIENDS! We're asking a sliding scale of $5 to $20, but if you can afford more, PLEASE BE GENEROUS, this is an important night! HOSTED BY AD Amarosi, CAConrad, and Betsy Andrews THE EXTRAORDINARY TWO-HEADED DIVA MCs FOR THE NIGHT WILL BE NEEDLES JONES http://www.myspace.com/needlesjones & THE DIVINE MS. JIMMI http://www.myspace.com/thedivinemsjimmi PERFORMERS INCLUDE: THE FEVER FEW http://www.myspace.com/thefeverfew THE ABSINTHE DRINKERS http://theabsinthedrinkers.com/ MY INVISIBLE http://www.myspace.com/myinvisible GEMINI WOLF http://www.myspace.com/geminiwolf ISH KLEIN http://www.myspace.com/ishklein JASON ZUZGA http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/zuzga.html FRANK SHERLOCK http://franksherlock.blogspot.com/ THEY ARE BIRDS http://myspace.com/theyarebirds ASHRAF OSMAN http://archmemory.blogspot.com/ DOROTHEA LASKY http://wavepoetry.com/catalog/55 TARA MURTHA http://www.myspace.com/tadarlington MARALYN LOIS POLAK http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/archives.asp?AUTHOR_ID=13 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:17:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: dismissing stein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hello all, here's an unfortunate, dismissive take on gertrude stein by way of reviewing janet malcom's recent bio: "I happily admit I haven't read The Making of Americans (1934) and have no intention of doing so, since it's half a million words long, and almost all of those sound like this: I mean, I mean and that is not what I mean. I mean that not any one is saying what they are meaning. I mean that I am feeling something, I mean that I mean something and I mean that not any one is thinking, is feeling, is saying, is certain of that thing, I mean that not any one can be. And so on and so forth." "Her charm emerges periodically in her books. The Autobiography of Alice B Toklas (1933) is a perfect, lucid delight; Tender Buttons (1914) sounds, not unattractively, like the work of Edith Sitwell after a pint or two of vodka; and Wars I Have Seen (1944) is disconcertingly indistinguishable in style and in every respect from the Anita Loos novel Gentlemen Prefer Blondes (1925)." "But was Stein really all that interested in anything? You would be hard-put to extract any cogent statement on any subject from almost any of her books." full piece at < http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/10/25/bomalc120.xml > sadly, tom orange ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:22:12 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Envy rears its ugly green head. Pierre Joris wrote: On Nov 5, 2007, at 6:34 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for > accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute > motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to > say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" > without having to say they developed this just because they knew > that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton > Anthology? infuriating to you, maybe, but accurate Pierre ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:23:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: OT: NYC Sun.: Less Than Zero Movie and Soundtrack at 20 Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward --------------- Boog City's Classic Albums Live presents Less Than Zero at 20 =20 20 Years After the Film's Release --See the Movie on the Big Screen --Hear Book Excerpts Read then --Hear the Album Performed Live *This Sun. Nov. 11, 8:00 p.m., $6* The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery (and 1st Street) NYC The soundtrack will be performed live in order by *A Brief View of the Hudson Rocking Pneumonia And The Boogie Woogie Flu (Aerosmith) Life Fades Away (Roy Orbison) Rock And Roll All Nite (Poison) =20 *Dead Rabbit Going Back To Cali (L.L Cool J.) You & Me (Less Than Zero) (Glen Danzig & The Power & Fury Orchestra) =20 *Dibson T. Hoffweiler In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida (Slayer) Bring The Noise (Public Enemy) Are You My Woman? (Black Flames) =20 *The Trouble Dolls She's Lost You (Joan Jett & The Blackhearts) How To Love Again (Oran =B3Juice=B2 Jones) Hazy Shade Of Winter (The Bangles) Hosted by Boog City editor and publisher David Kirschenbaum Directions: F train to Second Avenue, or 6 train to Bleecker Street. Venue is at foot of 1st Street, between Houston and Bleecker streets, across from CBGB's. Call 212-842-BOOG(2664) or email editor@boogcity.com for further informatio= n bios: *A Brief View of the Hudson http://www.myspace.com/abriefviewofthehudson =B3It=B9s not often that a band sounds like nothing you've ever heard and still sounds good. That's what you get from A Brief View of the Hudson.=B2 (N.Y. Sun) This unconventional trio is the brainchild of Texan Ann Enzminger and Canadian Nicholas Nace. Their off-kilter songs and music combine acoustic guitars, streaming riffs and =B3=8A Ann Enzminger=B9s arrestingly powerful vocals= , which are well tuned to the duo=B9s graceful songs of indie-folk heart.=B2 (Tim= e Out NY) They also were recently named =B3Best Folk Duo of 2005=B2 by N.Y. Press= . Since meeting in drama school and forming the band four years ago, the pai= r have become veterans of the downtown performance scene and are the house band every Monday night for the =B3belly laugh funny=B2(N.Y. Sun) O=B9Debra Twins =B3Show & Tell=B2 open mic at the Bowery Poetry Club. In 2004 they self-release= d their =B3=8A beautifully imperfect =8A=B2 (Americana-uk.com) debut EP Go North to Find Me on their own North/South Records label and followed it up in early 2005 with the release of The Art Star Sounds Compilation, entirely produced and compiled by Nicholas Nace. Joel Herzig joined the duo as their full tim= e bass player in the summer of 2006, and the trio has been performing non-sto= p ever since. *Dead Rabbit www.myspace.com/deadrabbitmusic =20 Dead Rabbit is a progressive indie rock band from Staten Island. They sound like David Bowie, Jefferson Airplane, and ABBA having a crazy orgy weekend. *Dibson T. Hoffweiler http://dibson.net/ http://www.myspace.com/dibson/ The latest in a long line of quirky anti-folk ingenues, including Beck, Ada= m Green and Jeffrey Lewis, Dibs applies that time-honored tradition of off-beat songwriting to his own private world of sugar factories, laundry baskets and ducks. With a low voice, both sweet and deadpan, and a guitar-style both virtuosic and sloppy, Dibson Hoffweiler carves out a spac= e of compassion and intelligence in a landscape of boring love songs and thinly-veiled songwriterly misogyny. *The Trouble Dolls http://www.troubledolls.net/ Trouble Dolls are Cheri, Matty, and Chris. They play pop music. They are from Brooklyn. They do not smoke. Their album "Sticky" is available on Half a Cow Records. They thank you for coming to see them play. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:32:53 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 'what she sang was uttered word by word' (Stevens, 'The Idea of Order at Key West') = (a certain idea of) poetry Alison Croggon wrote: Jason: "If I read something about "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to But from my observation - as a reader and a writer of prose and poetry - novels are composed at the level of the _sentence_, not the paragraph - and what about people like Jose Saramago or David Albahari, who don't use paragraphs at all? (As Patrick White said - one of the most illuminating and helpful things I've ever read about writing novels - a novel is written sentence by sentence.) You could perhaps make the beginnings of a distinction here, by saying that - as I believe - poetry is composed in lines (I don't think poetry has much to do with sentences at all, frankly). Even if, as in a prose poem, it's a very long line. Or you could say with Olson that poetry is composed in the syllable and the ear, which might take care of the flash poetry. I don't think either art is about "the nature of information" they "convey". Both _are_ something. Yes, they differ, but I've never read a satisfactory account of what that difference is. Maybe the crudest is best -there's something encyclopaedic about novels, they amass detail, while poems discard it. Elizabeth, I don't understand what you mean - are you saying the decision to write prose is about a desire for power? What kind of prose do you mean? What kind of power? There are prose works that equally "vibrate" with the reader, that are as multiple as any poems. Maybe you're referring to a particular kind of prose and I am thinking of another. I presume we're talking about what's generally and perhaps a little depressingly known as "creative prose". I've no objection to distinctions. I do however find claims that poetry is somehow inherently superior to prose (it doesn't seek power, it relinquishes some kind of control, prose is a vehicle, poetry the passenger, whatever) irksome. As are claims to the reverse. All best A -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:09:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: alison knowles in seattle 12/5/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpXSEFUOiBBTElTT04gS05PV0xFUyBQRVJGT1JNQU5DRSDigJMgcHJlc2VudGVkIGJ5IE5vbnNl cXVpdHVyIGFuZCBTdWJ0ZXh0IFJlYWRpbmcgU2VyaWVzIFdIRVJFOiBDSEFQRUwgUEVSRk9STUFO Q0UgU1BBQ0Ug4oCTIDR0aCBGbG9vciBvZiBHT09EIFNIRVBIRVJEIENFTlRFUiwgbG9jYXRlZCBh dCA0NjQ5IFN1bm55c2lkZSBOLCBqdXN0IHNvdXRoIG9mIDUwdGggU3QgaW4gV2FsbGluZ2ZvcmQu IFdIRU46IDc6MzAgUE0sIFdFRE5FU0RBWSBERUNFTUJFUiA1LCAyMDA3IFRJQ0tFVFM6IERvbmF0 aW9ucyBhY2NlcHRlZCBhdCB0aGUgZG9vci4gU3VidGV4dCBhbmQgTm9uc2VxdWl0b3IgcHJlc2Vu 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ZC5odG1saHR0cDovL211c2ljbWF2ZXJpY2tzLnB1YmxpY3JhZGlvLm9yZy9mZWF0dXJlcy8gaHR0 cDovL2FydGZvcnVtLmNvbS9pbnByaW50L2lkPTE1NjY0IFtyZXF1aXJlZCBsb2dvbl0gICDvgYZU aGUgZnV0dXJlIFN1YnRleHQgc2NoZWR1bGUgaXM6IEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDYsIDIwMDggSGFuayBMYXpl ciAoVHVzY2Fsb29zYSwgQUwpICYgVEJBTWFyY2ggNSwgMjAwOCBTdGV2ZSBNY0NhZmZlcnkgKFRv cm9udG8vQnVmZmFsbykgJiBUQkEgRm9yIGluZm8gb24gdGhlc2UgJiBvdGhlciBTdWJ0ZXh0IGV2 ZW50cywgc2VlIG91ciB3ZWJzaXRlIGF0IGh0dHA6Ly9zdWJ0ZXh0cmVhZGluZ3Nlcmllcy5ibG9n c3BvdC5jb20gTW9yZSBpbmZvIGF0IE5vbnNlcXVpdHVyIHdlYiBzaXRlIC0gaHR0cDovL25zZXEu YmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29tRGV0YWlscyBvbiB0aGUgQ2hhcGVsIGF0OiBodHRwOi8vZ3NjaGFwZWwuYmxv Z3Nwb3QuY29tIFNQRUNJQUwgVEhBTktTIHRvIE5PTlNFUVVJVFVSIGZvciBjby1zcG9uc29yaW5n IHRoaXMgZXZlbnQu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:18:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with respect... In-Reply-To: <387317.74096.qm@web52409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non-descriptive words masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as meaningless as calling it "interesting" or "organic". poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the job. we can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. perhaps i've had too much coffee already. On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: > > i say this with some degree of deference: > > isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > > novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, plot. > the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > > Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my money, the > impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing about > meaning that drove > me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear you have > found some better > philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout myself.... > Anyway, I don't find > the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas then? > Or Faulkner. > But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and fiction at > all, but between poetry and > expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > > ________________________________ > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and > making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with > Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post > structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions > are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about > the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or > useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy > & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has > line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and > flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with > something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to > the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such > an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to > draw a line where one is useful. > > perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my > reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them > both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, > the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also > when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > > Cheers, Wystan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough > > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I > > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My > > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've > > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to > >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from > >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >> > > advantage. > > > >> Wystan > >> > >> > >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:33:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Do not fill the refusal to talk In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0711060714h39db594coa40ae62115913db5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, Peter, Yes, the connection between the visual and language, the explosive gap they have to cross to create meanings, that's the underlying concern in poetry in our time, I think. In reference to the relationship between architecture and junk, I think any building becomes beautiful as it becomes decoupled from its ostensible function; use makes it invisible. "Uselessness" gives buildings beauty. That's why, I think,19th century factory spaces for example are beautiful. Of course, this is the very reverse of the Bauhaus aesthetics. But we live in a new world. Did anyone see the documentary "Industrial Landscapes?" I have a review of Bill Berkson's book of lectures, *Sudden Address*, which just came out in The Poetry Project Newsletter and which will appear in two different versions in Eilleen Tabios's *Galathea Resurrected* and Douglas Messerli's *Green Integer* blog. The review says things about the issue in question. Also, my book *The Peripheral Space of Photography* is all about the relationship between photographic image and language. Ciao, Murat On Nov 6, 2007 10:14 AM, Peter Ciccariello wrote: > Jim, > > You said: "images and languages start to 'speak' > > Yes, that "inbetween" is what I am concentrating on, the interior space, > the > inner voice, the point where the brain begins to recognize recognizes > language and demands meaning. > > - Peter > > > On Nov 6, 2007 12:02 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > Do not fill the refusal to talk > > http://cgi7.com/peterimages/Do-not-fill-the-refusal-to-.jpg > > > > That's evocative, Peter. It reminds me of the industrial downtown of big > > cities. And the role of thought there. Usually thought in industrial > > scenarios is of engineering and steel/concrete withstanding the forces > at > > play. And lots of crash and bang, materials worn. Interesting to see > > typographic symbols in such a situation. > > > > It also reminds me of when I saw Joe Keppler's back yard some time ago. > > He's > > a poet-sculptor. Steel is his main material. Looking out the kitchen > > window > > at the back yard, I saw a big kind of dump of 'raw material' for his > > sculpture. Lots of scrap steel, but it had already started to bend to > > language. It was strikingly like junk steel but also there were sort of > > creaks and groans and bends of language in there already. Parts of other > > architectures. Engineering architectures and writerly/sculptural > > architectures. > > > > How typographic symbols hold an image, create and hold an image. The > piece > > I'm working on also fills language with images from the net. You also > are > > filling language with images. Interesting how the two types of images > and > > languages start to 'speak' at once: the meanings and images of > typographic > > language and the meanings and images of visual language. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > -- > NEW RELEASE > UNCOMMON VISION - The Art of Peter Ciccariello > http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ > 66 pp. 42 color plates. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:37:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think Jim is onto something important here. What differentiates prose from poetry, in our time, is the size of the expected audience -or, are you speaking to an audience outside you or are you yourself the original audience you are appealing to. Ciao, Murat On Nov 5, 2007 7:10 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > prose is what you write when you think you might be understood; poetry, > well, you draw your own conclusions. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:39:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Outside of mathematics and certain kinds of philosophy, categories that are clear enough tend to blur at the borders. Urban/rural? Forest/field? The categories are functional, which is what counts. The border region can be seen as a separate zone--edge-of-the-forest, or for that matter, where-prose-and-poetry-meet--with its own characteristics that can be useful to talk about. This doesn't remove the blurriness--the new zone has its own border regions, because we'rereally talking about points on a continuum. It seems to me that that's the way things are, despite whatever taste for tidiness. What I don't understand is why any writer should care beyond her/his own practice. As an anthologist I generally accept a writer's categorization of his work. If Baudelaire considers one thing a poem, another a prose poem, another prose (of which he wrote a fair amount), etc., I see no reason to argue with him. As a critic I might be able to tease something out of the demonstrable differences in his practice. As a writer myself, I write. Mark At 10:27 AM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >Alison: I don't think that the decision to write prose is about a desire for >power: I was attempting to clarify what Wystan meant about prose ruling the >world and to consider some of the potential implications of that and the >rest of what he had to say. > >Wystan: yes, conversations do often involve a degree of indefiniteness, but >I really can't have a discussion with you if I don't know what you're >talking about. If you're talking about sheer volume, which seems to be the >implication of your most recent email, I'm still not really sure how that's >a recommendation for blurring boundaries. Nor do I think you have any >"powers": it's simply that your email seemed to imply that seeking power was >a reasonable aim for one's writing (in that a poet should blur boundaries >with prose since prose "rules"). If I misunderstood, I'm sorry, but that's >what happens when one rolls with indefiniteness, I'm afraid. > >Elizabeth Kate Switaj >www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: Barry Schwabsky's good message!!!! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:34:41 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" without having to say they developed this just because they knew that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton Anthology? Barry, I so agree with you on this!!!! This has to be said! Thank you very much for saying so! Bobbi Lurie ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:15:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: that duel at Cannes... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 13:43:58 -0500 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) Why Pierre, are you insinuating that Robert Bly is an opportunist? I may have to challenge you to a duel. Preferably on the beach at Cannes--we might as well combine it with a vacation. Mark-- I always say this: "I....(i never say may have to)....challenge you to a duel" The setting sounds perfect. May I observe and make sure this is done with precision/ according to tradition? hopefully-- Bobbi ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:24:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with respect... In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0711060918m1780553t3fccc2455b31c9b9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having been a musician - jazz, latin, blues, African - prior to getting into writing poetry, I take offense at 'musical' being described as non-descriptive. Poetry has always been associated with music. Music is sound. And what is poetry other than sound and the placing of sounds in a melodious cadence - with as much dissonance as the poet hears. Just as the development of Western Classical Music has been the opening of music to dissonance (consider the Gregorian and other Chants compared to say Schoenberg or Stravinsky), it seems to me that the development of modern and post-modern poetry has been nothing more than opening the poem to dissonance - which is nothing other than music. In conclusion, let me paraphrase what one of the greats of North American music said regarding 'swing' - you know it when you hear it. And if poetry, of whatever classification or category, doesn't have music, it doesn't sing and it definitely doesn't work because even the most dissonant of post-modernism swings in its own way and if you're open you can hear it singing to you. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of angela vasquez-giroux Sent: November 6, 2007 11:18 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with respect... i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non-descriptive words masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as meaningless as calling it "interesting" or "organic". poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the job. we can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. perhaps i've had too much coffee already. On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: > > i say this with some degree of deference: > > isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > > novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, plot. > the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > > Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my money, the > impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing about > meaning that drove > me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear you have > found some better > philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout myself.... > Anyway, I don't find > the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas then? > Or Faulkner. > But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and fiction at > all, but between poetry and > expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > > ________________________________ > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and > making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with > Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post > structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions > are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about > the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or > useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy > & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has > line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and > flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with > something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to > the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such > an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to > draw a line where one is useful. > > perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my > reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them > both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, > the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also > when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > > Cheers, Wystan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough > > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I > > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My > > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've > > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to > >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from > >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >> > > advantage. > > > >> Wystan > >> > >> > >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1112 - Release Date: 05/11/2007 7:11 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1112 - Release Date: 05/11/2007 7:11 PM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:27:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: <613110.61609.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed One needn't resort to dismissal or ad homina, Barry. It's entirely possible that someone who disagrees with you has no dark motives to conceal. It must have been in 1970 that Bly read to a small crowd of faculty and graduate students at Barnard College in New York. Most of the undergraduates were probably too invested in political ferment at the time, in the second year of almost non-stop rioting, to attend. After he lectured all of us about marriage for a half hour, apparently thinking we were 18 years old (I looked around the room and counted 1.5 marriages per attendee, most of whom I knew) he read us a poem that was apparently his set piece of those years about finding a dying sea lion behind a dune after the Santa Barbara oil spill. In the poem he goes back every day, recording the animal's increasing agony, until it died on the seventh day, when the sky opened and Bly had a Wordsworthian epiphany. It was apparently a big hit with most crowds. Me, I was furious. What a self-indulgent shit. A call to the ASPCA would have resulted in a quicker, kinder death. But without the epiphany. The people I spoke to felt the same. This was years before the utter disgrace of his Iron John phase. But he was already willing to make use of anything for his ends. Not everyone who wears a cape is a superhero. By the way, he's a very bad translator. But maybe I'm just jealous. Mark At 11:22 AM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >Envy rears its ugly green head. > >Pierre Joris wrote: On Nov 5, 2007, at 6:34 >AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for > > accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute > > motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to > > say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" > > without having to say they developed this just because they knew > > that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton > > Anthology? > >infuriating to you, maybe, but accurate > >Pierre >___________________________________________________________ > >The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >___________________________________________________________ >Pierre Joris >244 Elm Street >Albany NY 12202 >h: 518 426 0433 >c: 518 225 7123 >o: 518 442 40 71 >Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >email: joris@albany.edu >http://pierrejoris.com >Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:05:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Steven D. Schroeder" Subject: New online poetry journal: Anti- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm proud to announce my new editing venture. Anti-, an online poetry = journal set to launch in early 2008, seeks submissions. Anti- is not aesthetically affiliated with Nicanor Parra's school of = antipoetry, though the editor does share his skepticism about the = supposed mystical powers of poetry. Anti- primarily stands against the = confinement of poetry to too-small boxes. Anti- wants to provide a voice = for a wide range of styles and ideas in the same space, so these = different kinds of poets and poems can either fight it out or learn to = coexist. We're also interested in work that blurs boundaries: between = verse and prose, traditional and cutting edge, humorous and scary, = narrative and lyric and linguistically fragmented. Send three to seven original, unpublished poems as an attachment (Word = .doc or RTF) to antipoetry@anti-poetry.com. Either in the file or the = body of the e-mail, include a cover letter with your name, contact = information, a contributor-note biography of 50 words or less, and a = statement of 50 words or less on what you're against in poetry. This = statement can be general or specific to your submitted poems, serious or = tongue in cheek, broad or ridiculously minute. It needs to be something = you want to appear on your page if we accept your work. For full information and guidelines, visit http://anti-poetry.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 03:39:16 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Bar Napkins - Call for Wor(k/d)s Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 This is a call - not for papers - but for napkins! Everyone once in a while= will sit in a bar and jot notes, poems, songs, drawings on a bar napkin. T= hese are usually unconscious, uncollected meanderings, something to pass th= e time. If anyone's interested, I'd like to put together an album, a PDF, o= f bar napkin ramblings. You can send me PDFs, JPEGs, whatever, of your ramblings. No restrictions. = No Limits. No Deadline. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My eMail address is cacasama@towson.edu Send me physical objects at Christophe Casamassima 3116 Rosekemp Avenue Baltimore, MD 21214 =3D Train Managers with Business Simulations A great way to train your employees, staff, affiliates and partners. Use Bu= siness Simulations. They are easy on the eye and provide great examples. Fr= ee trial. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D90f9ebeff171c78dc7d58= 469d01e7d9b --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:49:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Organic as a meaningless term? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Angela said: "i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non-descriptive words masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as meaningless as calling it "interesting" or "organic"." Angela, Organic, as a description for poetry or other art forms, has a long history. (http://christianhubert.com/writings/organicism.html) In the correspondence of Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov, they used the term Organic, and that use seems quite interesting, especially coupled with the notion of the organismic paradigm on which it is based. (Certainly it is documented that Charles Olson's process is based on Whitehead's Philosophy of Organism. See Shahar Bram's "Charles Olson and Alfred North Whitehead: An Essay on Poetry"). Given the Reductionist (competition/domination) mentality of the Bush Administration, it would seem that Organic, and Organismic is quite timely and relevant. Maybe you could switch to green tea instead of too much coffee. I prefer matcha and Yin Hao jasmine. Paul Paul E. Nelson, M.A. WPA President Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Washington Poets Association Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 "If there is still one hellish, truly accursed thing in our time, it is our artistic dallying with forms, instead of being like victims burnt at the stake, signaling through the flames." --Artaud ----- Original Message ---- From: angela vasquez-giroux To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 9:18:29 AM Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with respect... i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non-descriptive words masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as meaningless as calling it "interesting" or "organic". poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the job. we can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. perhaps i've had too much coffee already. On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: > > i say this with some degree of deference: > > isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > > novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, plot. > the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > > Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my money, the > impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing about > meaning that drove > me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear you have > found some better > philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout myself.... > Anyway, I don't find > the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas then? > Or Faulkner. > But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and fiction at > all, but between poetry and > expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > > ________________________________ > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and > making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with > Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post > structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions > are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about > the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or > useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy > & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has > line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and > flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with > something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to > the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such > an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to > draw a line where one is useful. > > perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my > reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them > both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, > the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also > when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > > Cheers, Wystan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough > > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I > > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My > > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've > > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to > >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from > >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >> > > advantage. > > > >> Wystan > >> > >> > >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:02:43 -0800 Reply-To: matvei yankelevich Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matvei yankelevich Subject: kharms - book & event Comments: To: Matvei Yankelevich MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A I hope this isn't inappropriate, i just wanted to tell you all about th= is book by Daniil Kharms,=0Aan author i think many of you would be interest= ed in, and maybe some already are.=0AIt's my first serious book of translat= ions to come out (it's fat!)=0A=0Aand there's a special reading and perform= ance tomorrow night (wed.) in Brooklyn that i wanted to let you know about.= =0A=0ABest to all of you poetics people!=0A- Matvei =0A=0A=0A=0AYOU are cor= dially invited to=0A=0A=0Aa very special evening dedicated to DANIIL KHARMS= =0A=0Awith Matvei Yankelevich and The Debate Society=0A=0Apresented by The = Brick Theater, Inc. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0AA reading from the new book TODAY I WROT= E NOTHING: The Selected Writings of Daniil Kharms; a preview performance of= the play A THOUGHT ABOUT RAYA inspired by Kharms's writings; and culminati= ng in a vodka & pickle reception with the artists. *Copies of the TODAY I W= ROTE NOTHING will be available at half-price courtesy of Overlook Press.=0A= =0A=0A=0AWednesday, November 7 at 8:00 p.m.=0A=0A=0A=0Aat The Brick, 575 Me= tropolitan Avenue, Williamsburg, Brooklyn=0Aone block from the Lorimer stop= of the L train / Metropolitan stop of the G train=0A=0A=0Aall tickets: $1= 5.00 -- available at the door only -- cash only=0A=0A(Seating is limited so= RVSP to info@thedebatesociety.org is recommended)=0A=0A=0A* * *=0A=0A=0A= =0ATODAY I WROTE NOTHING: The Selected Writings of Daniil Kharms =0A=0A(Ove= rlook Press, Nov. 1, 2007, hardcover, 272 pages) =0A=0AEdited and with an i= ntroduction by Matvei Yankelevich. =0A=0ATranslated by Matvei Yankelevich w= ith Ilya Bernstein, Eugene Ostashevsky, and Simona Schneider.=0A=0A(Excerpt= s recently published in The New Yorker and Harper=92s.) =0ACheck it out on-= line at Overlook Press or Amazon.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AA THOUGHT ABOUT RAYA, creat= ed=0Aby Hannah Bos and Paul Thureen and directed by Oliver Butler, brings t= o=0Athe stage the violent and darkly comedic words and spirit of Leningrad= =0Awriter Daniil Kharms. In a series of colliding scenes, vibrant images=0A= and absurd turns frame this performance that is part fable, part dance,=0Aa= nd part experience. After successful out of town engagements in=0APortland,= OR and Austin, TX, Raya returns to New York City for the=0Afirst time sinc= e 2004. The play continues to run November 8-10, 8pm at=0AThe Brick. Runnin= g time: 1hr.=0A=0A=0A=0ATHE DEBATE SOCIETY is a critically acclaimed Brookl= yn-based company that creates new plays through the=0A=0Acollaboration of H= annah Bos, Paul Thureen and Oliver Butler. TDS has created 3 original full= -length plays=0A=0Ain New York: A Thought About Raya, The Snow Hen, and The= Eaten Heart.=0AThe Untitled Auto Play will open at Performance Space 122 n= ext year.=0AThey have toured to Portland, OR, Austin,TX, and Martha=92s Vin= eyard. =0AThe work of The Debate Society has been supported by grants from = The=0ANational Endowment for the Arts, The Lower Manhattan Cultural Council= ,=0AChashama, The Sons of Norway Foundation, Fractured Atlas and The=0AManc= ini Foundation. www.thedebatesociety.org.=0A=0A=0A=0ADANIIL KHARMS (1905= -1942)=0A=0AThe Russian writer Daniil Kharms co-founded the OBERIU (Associa= tion for=0AReal Art) in the late 1920s, near the end of the heyday of the R= ussian=0Aavant garde. During the 1930s, he lived off his writing for childr= en,=0Abut was otherwise unable to publish during his lifetime. His writings= =0Awere miraculously saved by friends from the Blockade of Leningrad. They= =0Awere widely circulated in "samizdat" among writers and artists in the=0A= 1960s, and finally officially published in the Soviet Union in the=0Alate = 1980s. Kharms has since been accepted as a classic of Russian=0Amodernist a= nd avant-garde writing, and is considered by many to be an=0Aunknowing prec= ursor of the European Theater of the Absurd.=0A=0A=0A* * *=0A=0A=0AAdvance = Praise for TODAY I WROTE NOTHING: The Selected Writings of Daniil Kharms=0A= =0A=0A=0A=93Yankelevich has done an heroic job bringing this supreme poet o= f everyday life into English." - Charles Bernstein=0A=0A=0A=0A=93Kharms=92s= Nothing has the power that binds atoms.=94 - Amy Fusselman=0A=0A=0A"Kharms= is a constant, invigorating surprise-a slap in the face, or a knock on the= head." - Christopher Sorrentino=0A=0A=0A=0A=0APress for A THOUGHT ABOUT R= AYA=0A=0A=0A=0A"Bos and Thureen spin a clownish magic to extraordinary humo= rous effect." - Richard Wattenberg , The Oregonian=0A=0A=0A=0A=93Bad theate= r leaves me craving whiskey and reality TV. After A Thought About Raya, I w= anted vodka and a fur=0A=0Ahat. If that isn't a recommendation, what is?=94= - Alison Hallett, The Portland Mercury=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0APress for THE DEBA= TE SOCIETY=0A=0A=0A=0A"Bos, Thureen and Butler don't merely put on a play, = they create an=0Aexperience. The result is, quite simply, great theater. Aw= esome in=0Ascope and bold in execution." - Sean Michael O'Donnell, Show Bus= iness=0AWeekly=0A=0A=0A=0A=93The cast and crew may call themselves The Deba= te Society, but their=0Atalent and inventiveness is never really in questio= n." - David Cote,=0ATime Out New York=0A=0A=0A=0A"To the city's theatre sc= ene, The Debate Society is that last, freshest=0Acookie in the jar when you= thought they were all gone and were still=0Acraving more." - Stephan Pasch= alides, Flavorpill =0A------=0A=0A------=0AMatvei Yankelevich=0A305 Prospec= t Place, #4D=0ABrooklyn, NY 11238=0A718.243.0446 =0AUgly Duckling Presse=0A= at the Old American Can Factory=0A232 Third Street, #E002=0ABrooklyn, NY 11= 215=0A718.852.5529 =0A=0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:32:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: [Fwd: CORRECTED fwd - Silent Teaching: A Tribute to Hannah Weiner] Comments: To: Theory and Writing , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080807030706060602050604" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080807030706060602050604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------080807030706060602050604 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="CORRECTED fwd - Silent Teaching: A Tribute to Hannah Weiner.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename*0="CORRECTED fwd - Silent Teaching: A Tribute to Hannah Weiner."; filename*1="eml" Return-Path: X-Original-To: damon001@sapphire.tc.umn.edu Delivered-To: damon001@sapphire.tc.umn.edu Received: from mta-a1.tc.umn.edu (mta-a1.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.222]) by sapphire.tc.umn.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C903153 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:55:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.201.73]) by mta-a1.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with SMTP for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:55:16 -0600 (CST) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.201.73] #+NE+NR+CP (A,-) X-Umn-Report-As-Spam: Received: (qmail 75122 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Nov 2007 18:55:07 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=VIes+TJIhr4mYntDwo8VhuhR3YazMtPXMbWoz+/RsXr4moOvYkQuYc1Q2f29lu7rwV056f//Cc6zQRP2BqisdE7IFCJyBV75TFC/SbHs0DStvQPcciiAzRCzb1PWEcwTAAPKwP/yqtrexDlolizdCfXaoI1+8/i+3GkMvl8FsOQ=; X-YMail-OSG: QUarBwcVM1maBo_DiHMVR4lrNgZ8DDxJeYeNmY_OnYnVDoH0ALVMwGaJ.OeWzu2B47endTP.WjtRFPBJIqnD4qNPVUI2Z6fZvJ6rT_1dJ5YLPJQTqMo- Received: from [69.219.164.29] by web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:55:07 PST Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:55:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: CORRECTED fwd - Silent Teaching: A Tribute to Hannah Weiner To: toddmattei630@gmail.com, damon001@umn.edu, kenningeditions@gmail.com, tim.yu@utoronto.ca, jscape@uchicago.edu, goldman.judith@gmail.com, jenrobe@earthlink.net, mbooth2@saic.edu, boharr@gmail.com Cc: Amina M Cain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <355067.74331.qm@web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #17: Silent Teaching A Tribute to Hannah Weiner 7pm Saturday, November 17th Featuring: Mark Booth Maria Damon Patrick Durgin Judith Goldman Roberto Harrison Todd Mattei Jenny Roberts Jennifer Scappettone Timothy Yu at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Avenue NEW LOCATION close to Grand & Pulaski in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 http://www.spareroomchicago.org BYOB suggested donation $3 doors lock at 7:30pm wheelchair accessible with assistance MARK BOOTH has exhibited his visual art at Tony Wright/Bodybuilder & Sportsman, Chicago; Chicago Cultural Center; The Contemporary Museum, Honolulu, Hawaii; Gahlberg Gallery, College of DuPage, Glen Ellyn, IL; Devening Editions, Chicago; and other venues. Selected audio artworks have been presented at the Overgaden Sound Art Festival, Copenhagen; Openport Festival, Chicago; Lincoln Park Conservatory, Chicago; Nova art fair, Chicago; and the Outer Ear Festival of Sound, Chicago. In addition, Booth has completed commissioned audio scores for Molly Shanahan/Mad Shak's "My Name is a Blackbird," Chicago, and Erik Pold's "Success", Copenhagen. Next fall, Booth will have a solo show at the Hyde Park Art Center in Chicago. He currently teaches creative writing, painting, and sound at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. MARIA DAMON teaches poetry and poetics at the University of Minnesota. She is the author of The Dark End of the Street: Margins in American Vanguard Poetry, co-author (with mIEKAL aND) of several books of poetry and online poetic works, and co-editor (with Ira Livingston) of the forthcoming anthology Poetry and Cultural Studies: A Reader. She has published numerous essays on poetry and poetics, including one on Hannah Weiner. PATRICK DURGIN's most recent publications include a chapbook of poetry (Imitation Poems) and contributions to Bay Poetics and Chicago Review. Very shortly forthcoming are essays in Aerial and The Journal of Literary Disability, poetry in Abraham Lincoln, as well as The Route, a collaborative hybrid-genre book written with Jen Hofer. By day, he teaches at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and by night maintains http://www.da-crouton.com. He edited the recent selected works of Hannah Weiner (Hannah Weiner’s Open House) for Kenning Editions (http://www.kenningeditions.com), as well as Weiner’s Early and Clairvoyant Journals for the UC San Diego's Archive of New Poetry. JUDITH GOLDMAN is the author of Vocoder (Roof 2001) and Deathstar/Rico-chet (O Books 2006). She was a coeditor, with Jocelyn Saidenberg and Kevin Killian, of Krupskaya for two years and currently coedits the annual anthology War and Peace with Leslie Scalapino. Her article "Hannah = hannaH: Politics, Ethics, and Clairvoyance in the work of Hannah Weiner" appeared in differences in 2001, while a review of Hannah Weiner's Open House is forthcoming in Crayon. She teaches in the core humanities program at University of Chicago. ROBERTO HARRISON edits Crayon with Andrew Levy and the Bronze Skull Press chapbook series. He also hosts the Enemy Rumor reading series. His most recent books include Counter Daemons (Litmus Press), Os (subpress) and Elemental Song (Answer Tag Home Press), all published in 2006. He lives in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. TODD MATTEI is an artist and musician living in Chicago. His work has been exhibited, screened, heard, or performed all over. He believes we must foster new perceptions of possibility, always available, and recycle both the wheat and the chaff circuits according to their most useful energy. Visit http://www.toddmattei.com for images and information. JENNY ROBERTS is a visual artist with roots in writing (poetry). In 2003, Jenny Roberts received an MFA from the University of Chicago. Roberts co-taught a seminar on conceptual art for adults at the Newberry Library in Chicago in 2005 and has presented her work as a visiting artist at the School of the Art Institute and Columbia College in Chicago as well as at a conference on camouflage at the University of Northern Iowa. She has had shows at LIPA Gallery, Lobby Gallery, the Hyde Park Art Center and other venues around Chicago. JENNIFER SCAPPETTONE’s first book of poems, From Dame Quickly, will be out next year from Litmus Press. Several chapbooks were printed in 2007, including Err-Residence (Bronze Skull) and Beauty [Is the New Absurdity] (dusi/e kollectiv). She is an assistant professor of English and creative writing at the University of Chicago. TIMOTHY YU is the author of Journey to the West, which won the Vincent Chin Chapbook Prize from Kundiman and appeared in Barrow Street. His work has also appeared or is forthcoming in SHAMPOO, Abraham Lincoln, 2nd Avenue Poetry, and the anthology The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century (Cracked Slab). He lives in Chicago and in Toronto, where he teaches at the University of Toronto, and can occasionally be found at http://tympan.blogspot.com. Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. Coming in 2008 Kate Greenstreet and Jen Tynes Miranda Mellis and Sarah Rosenthal Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. The SpareRoom is Chicago's time-arts cooperative. Our space gives a community of artists the opportunity to rehearse, perform, exhibit, and develop work on their own terms. Our Make Work program provides use of the space for interdisciplinary events and workshops: performance art, film, video, readings, dance, theater, installation, experimental sound and more. Email proposals to spareroominfo@yahoo.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------------080807030706060602050604-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:01:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with respect... In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0711060918m1780553t3fccc2455b31c9b9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit indeed: alliteration, cadence, rhythm. i get the impression that i'm surrounded by a bunch of structuralist sometimes. then the hairsplitting begins on what strikes me as meaningless distinctions when discussing prose as opposed to coffee, i mean poetry, i mean, another cup of... angela vasquez-giroux wrote: i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non-descriptive words masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as meaningless as calling it "interesting" or "organic". poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the job. we can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. perhaps i've had too much coffee already. On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: > > i say this with some degree of deference: > > isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > > novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, plot. > the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > > Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my money, the > impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing about > meaning that drove > me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear you have > found some better > philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout myself.... > Anyway, I don't find > the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas then? > Or Faulkner. > But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and fiction at > all, but between poetry and > expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > > ________________________________ > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and > making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with > Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post > structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions > are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about > the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or > useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy > & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has > line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and > flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with > something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to > the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such > an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to > draw a line where one is useful. > > perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my > reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them > both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, > the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also > when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > > Cheers, Wystan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough > > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I > > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My > > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've > > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to > >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from > >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >> > > advantage. > > > >> Wystan > >> > >> > >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:01:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Re: Malachi Ritscher: anti-war protester Comments: cc: ddiprima@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Diane, I think your points are very relevant. Whose job is it to name and remember those who sacrifice themselves during a war -- be it a monk, protester, terrorist, or soldier? How do the names of the dead change when listed in the news vs. listed in a poem vs. not being listed at all? I agree that one of the most troubling facts is that the local/national media has not given Malachi and his actions much attention. This seems in line with the general coverage of the Iraq war. It reminds me that wars are designed, created, and scripted with their own invented words for us to consume. Or, we don't consume these words. We turn them upside down and make them new. Malachi was an important member of Chicago's vibrant experimental music community. At the time of his death last year, the music site Pitchfork featured some useful writing. http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/feature/39663-malachi-ritscher-1954-2006 Last week, Chicago Public Radio aired an interview with Malachi's sister. http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/Content.aspx?audioID=14415 Thanks to all who've shared their ideas with me both on and off the list, Jennifer On 11/5/07, Diane DiPrima wrote: > Hi Jennifer, > > I hope this post doesn=B9t take the discussion off track, it is not my > intention, but: > > I just wanted to mention, for the record, that several Buddhist monks and > nuns self-immolated during the Vietnam war. One article in the Times, abo= ut > a young nun who died in this way on June 3 1966, moved me to write a shor= t > poem (still in print in my Revolutionary Letters). When I wrote the Times= to > ask her name so that I could use in the title of my poem, they responded = by > sending me the address in Asia of the correspondent who wrote the article= . I > finally reached him and he wrote back that =B3Buddhist nuns didn=B9t have > names=B2--which was of course grossly untrue. It was interesting to me th= at > nearly every monk who self-immolated was mentioned by name when anyone > bothered to write about him at all, but that =B3Buddhist nuns didn=B9t ha= ve > names.=B2 > > All best, Diane di Prima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:09:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Thanks for taking the bait, Allison. To be honest these are some thoughts that aren't fully formed yet, and I was kind of hoping that by sending them out sort of half-cocked i'd be able to get somebody from the list to engage me on these terms to see if I can work them out through dialog. Basically, i'm looking at "sentences" and "paragraphs" not such much as grammatical entities but as something that i've been calling "Minimum Meaningful Units" to myself. So what I'm saying is that to my way of thinking, at least if this avenue for drawing the distinction pans out, is that in the language arts, composition is in some sense atomic. One can break that down to the word level and say it's all just words in combination, but to my way of thinking I think there are real advantages to differentiating prose and poetry at the level of composition based on different MMUs. The primary advantage is that it gives a writer a framework in which to compose, letting the MMUs function like Legos and trusting that so long as different MMUs are focussed on, the end result is going to be something along the lines of what he's going for. To that end, I think that even prose writers who don't use paragraphs are working with something similar to the paragraph in terms of their MMUs, whereas even poets who don't appear to be using sentences are still using sentence size MMUs in their composition. The concept then is that a MMU is the minimum necessary to be written for a piece in one genre or the other to be complete. That is, a poem needs at least one sentence, (the term being used admittedly loosely to mean a subject and something predicated of it), and a prose piece needs at least one paragraph (even more loosely meaning a statement and it's elucidation). The other thing I like about this approach is that I think it may be possible to conceive of different MMUs that present the opportunity to write pieces that are neither prose nor poetry. One such example might be wittgenstein's "remarks" which are the MMUs of his later philosophy which i've experimented with quite a bit and had some good success with. The results are something that I'm resistant to describe as prose or poetry, but to take the example of the novel, I'm happy to report that a novel which i think we all agree can be either prose or poetry can also be neither prose nor poetry as well On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Alison Croggon wrote: > Jason: > > "If I read something about > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > > But from my observation - as a reader and a writer of prose and poetry - > novels are composed at the level of the _sentence_, not the paragraph - and > what about people like Jose Saramago or David Albahari, who don't use > paragraphs at all? (As Patrick White said - one of the most illuminating and > helpful things I've ever read about writing novels - a novel is written > sentence by sentence.) You could perhaps make the beginnings of a > distinction here, by saying that - as I believe - poetry is composed in > lines (I don't think poetry has much to do with sentences at all, frankly). > Even if, as in a prose poem, it's a very long line. Or you could say with > Olson that poetry is composed in the syllable and the ear, which might take > care of the flash poetry. I don't think either art is about "the nature of > information" they "convey". Both _are_ something. Yes, they differ, but I've > never read a satisfactory account of what that difference is. Maybe the > crudest is best -there's something encyclopaedic about novels, they amass > detail, while poems discard it. > > Elizabeth, I don't understand what you mean - are you saying the decision to > write prose is about a desire for power? What kind of prose do you mean? > What kind of power? There are prose works that equally "vibrate" with the > reader, that are as multiple as any poems. Maybe you're referring to a > particular kind of prose and I am thinking of another. I presume we're > talking about what's generally and perhaps a little depressingly known as > "creative prose". > > I've no objection to distinctions. I do however find claims that poetry is > somehow inherently superior to prose (it doesn't seek power, it relinquishes > some kind of control, prose is a vehicle, poetry the passenger, whatever) > irksome. As are claims to the reverse. > > All best > > A > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:17:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: dismissing stein In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed reducing tender buttons to edith sitwell plastered = really weird On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Tom Orange wrote: > hello all, > > here's an unfortunate, dismissive take on gertrude stein by way of reviewing > janet malcom's recent bio: > > "I happily admit I haven't read The Making of Americans (1934) and have no > intention of doing so, since it's half a million words long, and almost all > of those sound like this: I mean, I mean and that is not what I mean. I mean > that not any one is saying what they are meaning. I mean that I am feeling > something, I mean that I mean something and I mean that not any one is > thinking, is feeling, is saying, is certain of that thing, I mean that not > any one can be. And so on and so forth." > > "Her charm emerges periodically in her books. The Autobiography of Alice B > Toklas (1933) is a perfect, lucid delight; Tender Buttons (1914) sounds, not > unattractively, like the work of Edith Sitwell after a pint or two of vodka; > and Wars I Have Seen (1944) is disconcertingly indistinguishable in style > and in every respect from the Anita Loos novel Gentlemen Prefer Blondes > (1925)." > > "But was Stein really all that interested in anything? You would be hard-put > to extract any cogent statement on any subject from almost any of her > books." > > full piece at < > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/10/25/bomalc120.xml >> > > sadly, > tom orange > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Do not fill the refusal to talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit write in pictures write in sound On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:33:32 -0500 Murat Nemet-Nejat writes: > Jim, Peter, > > Yes, the connection between the visual and language, the explosive > gap they > have to cross to create meanings, that's the underlying concern in > poetry in > our time, I think. > > In reference to the relationship between architecture and junk, I > think any > building becomes beautiful as it becomes decoupled from its > ostensible > function; use makes it invisible. "Uselessness" gives buildings > beauty. > That's why, I think,19th century factory spaces for example are > beautiful. > Of course, this is the very reverse of the Bauhaus aesthetics. But > we live > in a new world. > > Did anyone see the documentary "Industrial Landscapes?" > > I have a review of Bill Berkson's book of lectures, *Sudden > Address*, which > just came out in The Poetry Project Newsletter and which will appear > in two > different versions in Eilleen Tabios's *Galathea Resurrected* and > Douglas > Messerli's *Green Integer* blog. The review says things about the > issue in > question. > > Also, my book *The Peripheral Space of Photography* is all about > the > relationship between photographic image and language. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > On Nov 6, 2007 10:14 AM, Peter Ciccariello > wrote: > > > Jim, > > > > You said: "images and languages start to 'speak' > > > > Yes, that "inbetween" is what I am concentrating on, the interior > space, > > the > > inner voice, the point where the brain begins to recognize > recognizes > > language and demands meaning. > > > > - Peter > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007 12:02 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > > > Do not fill the refusal to talk > > > http://cgi7.com/peterimages/Do-not-fill-the-refusal-to-.jpg > > > > > > That's evocative, Peter. It reminds me of the industrial > downtown of big > > > cities. And the role of thought there. Usually thought in > industrial > > > scenarios is of engineering and steel/concrete withstanding the > forces > > at > > > play. And lots of crash and bang, materials worn. Interesting to > see > > > typographic symbols in such a situation. > > > > > > It also reminds me of when I saw Joe Keppler's back yard some > time ago. > > > He's > > > a poet-sculptor. Steel is his main material. Looking out the > kitchen > > > window > > > at the back yard, I saw a big kind of dump of 'raw material' for > his > > > sculpture. Lots of scrap steel, but it had already started to > bend to > > > language. It was strikingly like junk steel but also there were > sort of > > > creaks and groans and bends of language in there already. Parts > of other > > > architectures. Engineering architectures and > writerly/sculptural > > > architectures. > > > > > > How typographic symbols hold an image, create and hold an image. > The > > piece > > > I'm working on also fills language with images from the net. You > also > > are > > > filling language with images. Interesting how the two types of > images > > and > > > languages start to 'speak' at once: the meanings and images of > > typographic > > > language and the meanings and images of visual language. > > > > > > ja > > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > NEW RELEASE > > UNCOMMON VISION - The Art of Peter Ciccariello > > http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ > > 66 pp. 42 color plates. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:32:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: what do you think of (et al) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anyone have a copy of faulkner's etchings and poesie to sell cheap i need one? On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 05:46:54 -0800 Dillon Westbrook writes: > Aren't we forgetting something- namely that poetry was FIRST, and if > > anybody needs to distinguish themselves its these prose mutants. > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:28 AM, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > Jason (1) for my money, the impulse to collapse distinctions is > > also the impulse to > > replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing > > > about meaning that drove > > me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear > > > you have found some better > > philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout > > myself.... Anyway, I don't find > > the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about > stanzas > > then? Or Faulkner. > > But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > > fiction at all, but between poetry and > > expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > > Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > > > > > there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is > > drawn and > > making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am > with > > Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this > post > > structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) > distinctions > > are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing > > > about > > the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to > generative or > > useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and > > > lazy > > & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than > the > > stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > > studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry > has > > line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets > and > > flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left > with > > something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > > relates to > > the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been > such > > an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a > > > way to > > draw a line where one is useful. > > > > perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > > honestly, my > > reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I > find > > Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to > them > > both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why > for > > me, > > the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point > of > > view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it > works > > also > > when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of > the > > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just > > > as if > > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > > composed at > > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as > to > > the nature of information being conveyed by the two different > species. > > > > > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: > >> > >> > >> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is > that > >> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. > You > >> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its > >> boundaries > >> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that > poetry > >> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such > an > >> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I > > >> don't > >> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS > poetry > >> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in > a > >> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be > poetry > >> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > >> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time > >> management and > >> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being > > >> served? > >> Cheers, Wystan > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: UB Poetics discussion group > >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > >> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > >> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >> > >> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" > do > >> you > >> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If > the > >> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that > > >> enough > >> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to > >> attempt > >> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > >> > >> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in > > >> how I > >> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read > >> them. My > >> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point > where > >> I've > >> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > >> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to > say > >> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about > my > >> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > >> > >> Elizabeth Kate Switaj > >> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > >> > >> > >> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >> > >>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek > to > >>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results > from > >>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >>> > >> advantage. > >> > >>> Wystan > >>> > >>> > >>> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:50:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Meritage Press Announcement In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable tom -- one of my students just heard you read & thought you were awesome--his firs= t poetry reading so he will go to others now. On 11/6/07 9:24 AM, "Tom Beckett" wrote: > Meritage Press Announcement >=20 > TINY BOOKS RELEASES FIFTH TITLE FOR POETRY TO KEEP FEEDING THE WORLD >=20 > Meritage Press (MP) is pleased to announce the fifth title in its series= of > Tiny Books that aligns poetry with fair trade and economic development i= ssues > affecting Third World countries. >=20 > MP's Tiny Books utilize small books (1 3/4" x 1 3/4") made in Nepal by > artisans paid fair wages, as sourced by Baksheesh, a fair trade retailer= . > Photos=20 > of a sample "Tiny Book" are available at > _http://www.flickr.com/photos/lolabola/1618955048/in/photostream/_ > (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lolabola/1618955048/in/photostream/) as w= ell > as at Crg Hill's Poetry Scorecard at > _http://scorecard.typepad.com/crag_hills_poetry_score/haynaku/index.html_= ( > http://scorecard.typepad.com/crag_hills_poetry_score/haynaku/index.html) = . >=20 > All profits from book sales will be donated to Heifer International, an > organization devoted to reducing world hunger by promoting sustainable so= urces > of=20 > food and income. This project reflects MP's belief that "Poetry feeds the > world" in non-metaphorical ways. The Tiny Books create demand for fair tr= ade > workers' products while also sourcing donations for easing poverty in poo= rer > areas of the world. >=20 > We are delighted to announce that MP's fifth Tiny Book is >=20 > some hay > By Lars Palm >=20 > Lars Palm lives in southern Sweden where he works in health care, writes > (mostly smallish) silly poems, translates some Swedish poets, edits a bl= og > zine=20 > called skicka (in english) & at times publishes the first broadside seri= es in > the country. He's the author of mindfulness (moria, 2006), on stealing l= ips > (The Martian Press, 2006) & is beside the point (Big Game Books Tinyside= 34, > 2007). Another, death is, is forthcoming from by the skin of me teeth pr= ess > sometime soon. >=20 > MP's other Tiny Books, which also are still available, are >=20 > all alone again=20 > by Dan Waber >=20 > and >=20 > Steps: A Notebook > by Tom Beckett =20 >=20 > and > "=8AAnd Then The Wind Did Blow..." > Jainak=FA Poems > by Ernesto Priego >=20 > and >=20 > Speak which > Hay(na)ku poems > by Jill Jones >=20 > Each Tiny Book will cost $10 plus $1.00 shipping/handling in the U.S. (e= mail > us first for non-U.S. orders). To purchase the Tiny Books and donate to > Heifer International, send a check for $11.00 per book, made out to "Mer= itage > Press" to =20 >=20 > Eileen Tabios=20 > Meritage Press=20 > 256 North Fork Crystal Springs Rd. > St. Helena, CA 94574 > U.S.A. >=20 > Please specify which of the five Tiny Books you are ordering. >=20 > With Tiny Books, MP also offers a new DIY, or Do-It-Yourself Model of > publishing. You've heard of POD or print-on-demand? Well, these books' p= rint > runs=20 > will be based on HOD or Handwritten-on-Demand. MP's publisher, Eileen Ta= bios, > will handwrite all texts into the Tiny Books' pages and books will be > released to meet demand for as long as MP is able to source tiny books -= - or > until=20 > the publisher gets arthritis. >=20 >=20 > FUNDAISING UPDATE: > In addition to providing livestock, Heifer International also provides > trees. As of Nov. 5, 2007, Meritage Press' Tiny Books program has sold > enough=20 > Tiny Books to finance the donation equivalent of seven sets of tree-gift= s. > Here's what Heifer has to say about trees: >=20 > One of Heifer International=B9s most important commitments is to care for = the > earth. We believe development must be sustainable =8B that projects should= be > long-term investments in the future of people and the planet.That=B9s why = in > addition to livestock, Heifer often provides families with trees. On a s= teep > Tanzanian hillside, Heifer International helped a family learn to plant = trees > and elephant grass to keep the soil in place. Today, they have flourishi= ng > rows=20 > of leucaena trees and corn.Through training, families learn how to keep > their small plots of land healthy and renew the soil for future generati= ons > by=20 > planting trees, using natural fertilizer, and limiting grazing.By helpin= g > families raise their animals in harmony with nature, you can fight pover= ty > and=20 > hunger while ensuring a healthy, productive future for us all. >=20 > Then of course there are the chickens, goats, water buffalos, pigs, duck= s, > honeybees, llamas....all of which can help ease hunger around the world. > Meritage Press thanks you in advance for your support and hopes you enjo= y > Tiny=20 > Books -- small enough to become jewelry, but with poems big enough to > resonate=20 > worldwide. >=20 >=20 > ***** > ABOUT THE TINY BOOK AUTHORS: > Dan Waber is a visual poet, concrete poet, sound poet, performance poet, > publisher, editor, playwright and multimedia artist whose work has appea= red > in=20 > all sorts of delicious places, from digital to print, from stage to > classroom,=20 > from mailboxes to puppet theaters. He is currently working on "and > everywhere in between". He makes his online home at logolalia.com. Merita= ge > Press=20 > tapped Mr. Waber to inaugurate the series partly for his work in minimal= ist > poetry.=20 >=20 > Tom Beckett is the author of Unprotected Texts: Selected Poems 1978~2006 > (Meritage Press, 2006), and the curator of E-X-C-H-A-N-G-E-V-A-L-U-E-S: = The > First XI Interviews (Otoliths, 2007). From 1980-1990, he was the > editor/publisher=20 > of the now legendary critical journal, The Difficulties. Steps: A Notebo= ok > is Tom Beckett's first hay(na)ku poetry collection. >=20 > Ernesto Priego was born in Mexico City. He lives in London. He blogs at > Never Neutral (http://neverneutral.wordpress.com/) and is the author of = the > first=20 > single-author hay(na)ku poetry collection, Not Even Dogs > (http://meritagepress.com/notevendogs.htm). The "jainak=FA" is Mexico's > version of the hay(na)ku > poetic form. >=20 > Jill Jones' latest book, Broken/Open (Salt, 2005), was short-listed for = The > Age Book of the Year 2005 and the 2006 Kenneth Slessor Poetry Prize. In = 1993 > she won the Mary Gilmore Award for her first book of poetry, The Mask an= d the > Jagged Star (Hazard Press, 1992). Her third book, The Book of Possibilit= ies > (Hale & Iremonger, 1997), was shortlisted for the 1997 National Book Cou= ncil > 'Banjo' Awards and the 1998 Adelaide Festival Awards. Screens, Jets, Hea= ven: > New and Selected Poems (Salt, 2002) won the 2003 Kenneth Slessor Poetry = Prize > (NSW Premier's Literary Awards). Her work has been translated into Chine= se, > Dutch, Polish, French, Italian and Spanish. >=20 > For more information: MeritagePress@aol.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.c= om ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:59:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wil Hallgren Subject: Re: what do you think of "musical" as descriptive of poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). ----- Original Message ---- From: angela vasquez-giroux To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with respect... i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non-descriptive words masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as meaningless as calling it "interesting" or "organic". poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the job. we can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. perhaps i've had too much coffee already. On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: > > i say this with some degree of deference: > > isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > > novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, plot. > the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > > Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my money, the > impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing about > meaning that drove > me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear you have > found some better > philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout myself.... > Anyway, I don't find > the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about stanzas then? > Or Faulkner. > But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and fiction at > all, but between poetry and > expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > > ________________________________ > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is drawn and > making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with > Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post > structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) distinctions > are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing about > the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to generative or > useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and lazy > & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has > line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and > flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left with > something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it relates to > the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been such > an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a way to > draw a line where one is useful. > > perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, honestly, my > reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them > both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why for me, > the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it works also > when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > the nature of information being conveyed by the two different species. > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its boundaries > > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I don't > > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS poetry > > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time management and > > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being served? > > Cheers, Wystan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" do you > > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If the > > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that enough > > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to attempt > > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in how I > > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read them. My > > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point where I've > > even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to say > > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to > >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from > >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >> > > advantage. > > > >> Wystan > >> > >> > >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:03:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: contact info for Cecilia Vicu=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1a=3F?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit please backchannel; thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:41:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Schadenfreude Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Anyone have a one word translation in English? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:45:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: <651226.27629.qm@web86003.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i can't find my Stevens. i remember the poem for its musical grace and it's philosophical contrast: art/nature. Barry Schwabsky wrote: 'what she sang was uttered word by word' (Stevens, 'The Idea of Order at Key West') = (a certain idea of) poetry Alison Croggon wrote: Jason: "If I read something about "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as if I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to But from my observation - as a reader and a writer of prose and poetry - novels are composed at the level of the _sentence_, not the paragraph - and what about people like Jose Saramago or David Albahari, who don't use paragraphs at all? (As Patrick White said - one of the most illuminating and helpful things I've ever read about writing novels - a novel is written sentence by sentence.) You could perhaps make the beginnings of a distinction here, by saying that - as I believe - poetry is composed in lines (I don't think poetry has much to do with sentences at all, frankly). Even if, as in a prose poem, it's a very long line. Or you could say with Olson that poetry is composed in the syllable and the ear, which might take care of the flash poetry. I don't think either art is about "the nature of information" they "convey". Both _are_ something. Yes, they differ, but I've never read a satisfactory account of what that difference is. Maybe the crudest is best -there's something encyclopaedic about novels, they amass detail, while poems discard it. Elizabeth, I don't understand what you mean - are you saying the decision to write prose is about a desire for power? What kind of prose do you mean? What kind of power? There are prose works that equally "vibrate" with the reader, that are as multiple as any poems. Maybe you're referring to a particular kind of prose and I am thinking of another. I presume we're talking about what's generally and perhaps a little depressingly known as "creative prose". I've no objection to distinctions. I do however find claims that poetry is somehow inherently superior to prose (it doesn't seek power, it relinquishes some kind of control, prose is a vehicle, poetry the passenger, whatever) irksome. As are claims to the reverse. All best A -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 19:49:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Haiku Invitational / Vancouver Cherry Blossom Festival In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" VANCOUVER CHERRY BLOSSOM FESTIVAL 2008 INTERNATIONAL HAIKU INVITATIONAL We are delighted to announce that the third annual Vancouver Cherry Blossom Festival will take place in Vancouver, Canada, during March and April 2008. We invite poets from around the world to submit ONE unpublished haiku on the theme of cherry blossoms. Submissions must be received by December 19, 2007. Top selected haiku will be memorialized in stone, along with 2006 and 2007 top poems, and placed among the new cherry tree plantings at the world class VanDusen Botanical Garden in Vancouver.? Selected haiku will also be displayed on hundreds of TransLink city?buses and SkyTrain cars for a period of two months. Other works of merit will be published on the VCBF Website and featured at readings throughout the festival. You may find submission details at http://www.vcbf.ca/?by following the link to haiku. Thank you for sharing your passion and appreciating the cherry tree. Respectfully, Linda Poole VCBF Creative Director Carole MacRury Michael Dylan Welch Edward Zuk Haiku Committee ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:55:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Reading November 17th in Chicago / Hannah Weiner Tribute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [Apologies for cross-posting.] Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #17: Silent Teaching A Tribute to Hannah Weiner 7pm Saturday, November 17th Featuring: Mark Booth Maria Damon Patrick Durgin Judith Goldman Roberto Harrison Todd Mattei Jenny Roberts Jennifer Scappettone Timothy Yu at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Avenue NEW LOCATION close to Grand & Pulaski in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 http://www.spareroomchicago.org BYOB suggested donation $3 doors lock at 7:30pm wheelchair accessible with assistance MARK BOOTH has exhibited his visual art at Tony Wright/Bodybuilder & Sportsman, Chicago; Chicago Cultural Center; The Contemporary Museum, Honolulu, Hawaii; Gahlberg Gallery, College of DuPage, Glen Ellyn, IL; Devening Editions, Chicago; and other venues. Selected audio artworks have been presented at the Overgaden Sound Art Festival, Copenhagen; Openport Festival, Chicago; Lincoln Park Conservatory, Chicago; Nova art fair, Chicago; and the Outer Ear Festival of Sound, Chicago. In addition, Booth has completed commissioned audio scores for Molly Shanahan/Mad Shak's "My Name is a Blackbird," Chicago, and Erik Pold's "Success", Copenhagen. Next fall, Booth will have a solo show at the Hyde Park Art Center in Chicago. He currently teaches creative writing, painting, and sound at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. MARIA DAMON teaches poetry and poetics at the University of Minnesota. She is the author of The Dark End of the Street: Margins in American Vanguard Poetry, co-author (with mIEKAL aND) of several books of poetry and online poetic works, and co-editor (with Ira Livingston) of the forthcoming anthology Poetry and Cultural Studies: A Reader. She has published numerous essays on poetry and poetics, including one on Hannah Weiner. PATRICK DURGIN's most recent publications include a chapbook of poetry (Imitation Poems) and contributions to Bay Poetics and Chicago Review. Very shortly forthcoming are essays in Aerial and The Journal of Literary Disability, poetry in Abraham Lincoln, as well as The Route, a collaborative hybrid-genre book written with Jen Hofer. By day, he teaches at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and by night maintains http://www.da-crouton.com. He edited the recent selected works of Hannah Weiner (Hannah Weiner’s Open House) for Kenning Editions (http://www.kenningeditions.com), as well as Weiner’s Early and Clairvoyant Journals for the UC San Diego's Archive of New Poetry. JUDITH GOLDMAN is the author of Vocoder (Roof 2001) and Deathstar/Rico-chet (O Books 2006). She was a coeditor, with Jocelyn Saidenberg and Kevin Killian, of Krupskaya for two years and currently coedits the annual anthology War and Peace with Leslie Scalapino. Her article "Hannah = hannaH: Politics, Ethics, and Clairvoyance in the work of Hannah Weiner" appeared in differences in 2001, while a review of Hannah Weiner's Open House is forthcoming in Crayon. She teaches in the core humanities program at University of Chicago. ROBERTO HARRISON edits Crayon with Andrew Levy and the Bronze Skull Press chapbook series. He also hosts the Enemy Rumor reading series. His most recent books include Counter Daemons (Litmus Press), Os (subpress) and Elemental Song (Answer Tag Home Press), all published in 2006. He lives in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. TODD MATTEI is an artist and musician living in Chicago. His work has been exhibited, screened, heard, or performed all over. He believes we must foster new perceptions of possibility, always available, and recycle both the wheat and the chaff circuits according to their most useful energy. Visit http://www.toddmattei.com for images and information. JENNY ROBERTS is a visual artist with roots in writing (poetry). In 2003, Jenny Roberts received an MFA from the University of Chicago. Roberts co-taught a seminar on conceptual art for adults at the Newberry Library in Chicago in 2005 and has presented her work as a visiting artist at the School of the Art Institute and Columbia College in Chicago as well as at a conference on camouflage at the University of Northern Iowa. She has had shows at LIPA Gallery, Lobby Gallery, the Hyde Park Art Center and other venues around Chicago. JENNIFER SCAPPETTONE’s first book of poems, From Dame Quickly, will be out next year from Litmus Press. Several chapbooks were printed in 2007, including Err-Residence (Bronze Skull) and Beauty [Is the New Absurdity] (dusi/e kollectiv). She is an assistant professor of English and creative writing at the University of Chicago. TIMOTHY YU is the author of Journey to the West, which won the Vincent Chin Chapbook Prize from Kundiman and appeared in Barrow Street. His work has also appeared or is forthcoming in SHAMPOO, Abraham Lincoln, 2nd Avenue Poetry, and the anthology The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century (Cracked Slab). He lives in Chicago and in Toronto, where he teaches at the University of Toronto, and can occasionally be found at http://tympan.blogspot.com. Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. Coming in 2008 Kate Greenstreet and Jen Tynes Miranda Mellis and Sarah Rosenthal Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. The SpareRoom is Chicago's time-arts cooperative. Our space gives a community of artists the opportunity to rehearse, perform, exhibit, and develop work on their own terms. Our Make Work program provides use of the space for interdisciplinary events and workshops: performance art, film, video, readings, dance, theater, installation, experimental sound and more. Email proposals to spareroominfo@yahoo.com. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:46:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "=". Rest of header flushed. From: wil Hallgren Subject: Re: what do you think of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Idea of Order at Key West by Wallace Steven (Collected Poems p. 128)=0A= =0AShe sang beyond the genius of the sea.=0AThe water never formed to mind= or voice,=0ALike a body wholly body, fluttering=0AIts empty sleeves; and y= et its mimic motion=0AMade constant cry, caused constantly a cry,=0AThat wa= s not ours although we understood,=0AInhuman, of the veritable ocean.=0A = =0AThe sea was not a mask. No more was she.=0AThe song and water were not = medleyed sound=0AEven if what she sang was what she heard,=0ASince what she= sang was uttered word by word.=0AIt may be that in all her phrases stirred= =0AThe grinding water and the gasping wind;=0ABut it was she and not the se= a we heard.=0A =0AFor she was the maker of the song she sang.=0AThe ever-ho= oded, tragic gestured sea=0AWas merely a place by which she walked to sing.= =0AWhose spirit is this? we said, because we knew=0AIt was the spirit that = we sought and knew=0AThat we should ask this often as she sang.=0A =0AIf it= was only the dark voice of the sea=0AThat rose, or even colored by many wa= ves;=0AIf it was only the outer voice of the sky=0AAnd cloud, of the sunken= coral water-walled,=0AHowever clear, it would have been deep air,=0AThe he= aving speech of air, a summer sound=0ARepeated in a summer without end=0AAn= d sound alone. But it was more than that,=0AMore even than her voice, and = ours, among=0AThe meaningless plungings of water and the wind,=0ATheatrical= distances, bronze shadows heaped=0AOn high horizons, mountainous atmospher= es=0AOf sky and sea.=0AIt was her voice that made=0AThe sky acutest at its = vanishing.=0AShe measured to the hour its solitude.=0AShe was the single ar= tificer of the world=0AIn which she sang. And when she sang, the sea,=0AWh= atever self it had, became the self=0AThat was her song, for she was the ma= ker. Then we,=0AAs we beheld her striding there alone,=0AKnew that there n= ever was a word for her=0AExcept the one she sang and, singing, made.=0A = =0ARamon Fernandez, tell me, if you know,=0AWhy, when the singing ended and= we turned=0AToward the town, tell me why the glassy lights,=0AThe lights i= n the fishing boats at anchor there,=0AAs the night descended, tilting in t= he air,=0AMastered the night and portioned out the sea,=0AFixing emblazoned= zones and fiery poles,=0AArranging, deepening, enchanting night.=0A =0AOh!= Blessed rage for order, pale Ramon,=0AThe maker=A2s rage to order words of= the sea,=0AWords of the fragrant portals, dimly-starred,=0AAnd of ourselve= s and of our origins,=0AIn ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds.=0A =0A = =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: steve russell =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, Novembe= r 6, 2007 7:45:16 PM=0ASubject: Re: what do you think of=0A=0Ai can't find = my Stevens. i remember the poem for its musical grace and it's philosophica= l contrast: art/nature.=0A=0ABarry Schwabsky = wrote: 'what she sang was uttered word by word' (Stevens, 'The Idea of Ord= er at Key West') =3D (a certain idea of) poetry=0A=0AAlison Croggon wrote: = Jason:=0A=0A"If I read something about=0A"poetry" and I subsitute "language= art composed at the level of the=0Asentence" it works and can makes sense = of what is being said, just as if=0AI read something aobut "prose" and subs= titute "language art composed at=0Athe level of the paragraph." I think thi= s distinction makes sense=0Abecause it relates directly to what people actu= ally do, as well as to=0A=0ABut from my observation - as a reader and a wri= ter of prose and poetry -=0Anovels are composed at the level of the _senten= ce_, not the paragraph - and=0Awhat about people like Jose Saramago or Davi= d Albahari, who don't use=0Aparagraphs at all? (As Patrick White said - one= of the most illuminating and=0Ahelpful things I've ever read about writing= novels - a novel is written=0Asentence by sentence.) You could perhaps mak= e the beginnings of a=0Adistinction here, by saying that - as I believe - p= oetry is composed in=0Alines (I don't think poetry has much to do with sent= ences at all, frankly).=0AEven if, as in a prose poem, it's a very long lin= e. Or you could say with=0AOlson that poetry is composed in the syllable an= d the ear, which might take=0Acare of the flash poetry. I don't think eithe= r art is about "the nature of=0Ainformation" they "convey". Both _are_ some= thing. Yes, they differ, but I've=0Anever read a satisfactory account of wh= at that difference is. Maybe the=0Acrudest is best -there's something encyc= lopaedic about novels, they amass=0Adetail, while poems discard it.=0A=0AEl= izabeth, I don't understand what you mean - are you saying the decision to= =0Awrite prose is about a desire for power? What kind of prose do you mean?= =0AWhat kind of power? There are prose works that equally "vibrate" with th= e=0Areader, that are as multiple as any poems. Maybe you're referring to a= =0Aparticular kind of prose and I am thinking of another. I presume we're= =0Atalking about what's generally and perhaps a little depressingly known a= s=0A"creative prose".=0A=0AI've no objection to distinctions. I do however = find claims that poetry is=0Asomehow inherently superior to prose (it doesn= 't seek power, it relinquishes=0Asome kind of control, prose is a vehicle, = poetry the passenger, whatever)=0Airksome. As are claims to the reverse.=0A= =0AAll best=0A=0AA=0A=0A=0A-- =0AEditor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.= au=0ABlog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com=0AHome page: http://www.alisonc= roggon.com=0A=0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo = You Yahoo!?=0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection arou= nd =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:49:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: WGA Strike MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi. I would like to inform you, especially those who are not in the U.S. and may not know or care, that the Writers Guild of America is on strike. I would also like to encourage some conversation, debate, and support for the WGA writers. The Writers Guild is one of the few white collar/artistic labor unions. Of the others, while most SAG (Screen Actors Guild) members are respecting the picket lines, the DGA (Directors Guild) is not. The Hollywood Teamsters, and also individual Teamsters, are also not crossing picket lines. The last writers' strike, which lasted five months, gave rise to reality tv (which requires fewer, and more easily non-union, writers). This writers' strike will take an estimated 1 billion dollars a month from the US economy. GE, Sony, Time Warner, etc. -- are diversified and multinational enough not to care. The debates are many: - residuals for online screenings or downloads -- not about napster-esque stealing and swapping: the studios are running television shows and feature films on their own websites without paying the writers residuals. they are additionally saying that these are "experiments" for "marketing purposes" while 1) one cable network runs all of its film programming ad-free and pays residuals according to contract formulas, 2) part of this marketing is building share for the network and for the shows, which should be compensated, 3) we are no longer in the experimental phase of internet advertising, broadband, etc. - residuals for the creative offspring of film and tv: so-called "baby writers" are exploited by the networks, and regular staff writers are required, to write webisodes for existing shows for internet-only showings. neither the creators of the characters, situations -- the show -- nor the writers of the webisodes are paid residuals. sometimes, they're not paid for writing them. - do not be fooled by studios saying they want to pay residuals to writers, actors after shows or films make a profit. studios, now all part of large corporations, are now able to manipulate the books so that shows officially never show a profit. for example, the simpsons, one of the most popular and longest-running television shows thus far, and one with only voice actors, is officially still in the red. - the WGA has been forced to make significant cuts in its union health care benefit, especially to writers who live outside Los Angeles, and has extended the number of working years to become fully vested in the health benefits. At any one time, less than 5% of the WGA members are working. the average WGA member makes less money per year from writing than a minor league hockey player. [there have been some ravings I've heard about the average salary being close to what the average first team major league male athlete makes: not so] -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:50:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Bar Napkins - Call for Wor(k/d)s In-Reply-To: <20071106193916.3AF621486D@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > you've seen Moira Egan's right? she's in Baltimore -- -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:56:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schneider Hill Subject: Reminder: Sightings and Hearings: Huth & Hill at the Stain Bar, Nov. 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poets Crag Hill and Geof Huth will give a reading entitled "Sightings & Hearings" at the Stain Bar in Brooklyn, New York, on November 16th. Combining their interest in visual, sound, and even textual poetry, they will read and perform, together and apart, a wide range of works. This will be the first time Hill and Huth have performed together since their performance in March of this year, so don't miss this east coast appearance. If a reading isn't enough encouragement, Stain Bar has a great selection of New-York-only beer and other drinks. Crag Hill and Geof Huth Friday, 16 November 2007 6:30 pm Stain Bar 766 Grand Street Brooklyn, New York 718/387-7840 To get to Stain Bar, take the L train to Grand and go one block west to 766 Grand Street by the way of Graham Avenue and Humboldt Street. For those who attend, Hill will offer Nico Vassilakis' Text Loses Time for $12.00! Ask him for one. Bios of the Performers: Crag Hill has been exploring the world through the prisms of verbal and visual language since his re-birth in the 1970s. Writer of numerous chapbooks and/or other print interventions, including Dict (Xexoxial Endarchy), Another Switch (Norton Coker Press), and Yes James, Yes Joyce (Loose Gravel Press), he has also once edited two magazines, Score and its successor Spore. His latest book, co-edited with Bob Grumman, is Writing to be Seen, the first major anthology of visual poetry in 30 years. He writes frequently about poetry at his blog, Crg Hill's poetry scorecard . Geof Huth is a writer of textual and visual poetry who has lived on most of the continents on earth. He writes frequently about visual poetry, especially on his weblog, dbqp: visualizing poetics. His chapbooks include "Analphabet," "The Dreams of the Fishwife," "ghostlight," "Peristyle," "To a Small Stream of Water (or Ditch)," and "wreadings." Huth edited &2: an/thology of Pwoermds, the first-ever anthology of one-word poems. His most recent books are a box of pages entitled water vapour and the chapbook, "Out of Character." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 19:16:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <705604.89340.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For me, there can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and 'feminine' line endings, rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the poem's 'music.' So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or connotational) aspects of any piece of writing (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are sweeter," etc). But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems more musical because it seems more meaningful. Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" over another kind of music, categorically. It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over punk music" (or vice versa) It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. Chris On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" > -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: angela vasquez-giroux > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > respect... > > i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > descriptive words > masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > meaningless as > calling it "interesting" or "organic". > > poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the > job. we > can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > > perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > > On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: >> >> i say this with some degree of deference: >> >> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >> >> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >> plot. >> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >> >> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >> money, the >> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >> about >> meaning that drove >> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >> you have >> found some better >> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >> myself.... >> Anyway, I don't find >> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >> stanzas then? >> Or Faulkner. >> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >> fiction at >> all, but between poetry and >> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: what do you think of >> >> >> >> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >> drawn and >> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with >> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post >> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >> distinctions >> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >> about >> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >> generative or >> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >> lazy >> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has >> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and >> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >> with >> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >> relates to >> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >> such >> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >> way to >> draw a line where one is useful. >> >> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >> honestly, my >> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them >> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >> for me, >> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >> works also >> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >> as if >> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >> composed at >> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to >> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >> species. >> >> >> >> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>> >>> >>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>> boundaries >>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry >>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>> don't >>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>> poetry >>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>> management and >>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>> served? >>> Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>> do you >>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>> the >>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>> enough >>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>> attempt >>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>> >>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>> how I >>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>> them. My >>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>> where I've >>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>> say >>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>> >>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>> >>> >>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>> >>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>> >>> advantage. >>> >>>> Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 21:20:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it's one of my favorite words, but i don't know a one-word translation. mIEKAL aND wrote: > Anyone have a one word translation in English? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:21:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: dismissing stein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Obtuse is, like, the new smart or something. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 19:23:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: what do you think of "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <705604.89340.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In English, if you use the adjective "musial" to talk about text, you are making a metaphor. My instructors have told me this is not the case in Classical Chinese or Ancient Greek, a point I'm sure we're all familiar with (and one I can't really evaluate properly, so I'll just repeat it as gospel). I say, given that we are put in this metaphoric corner, let's just embrace it, and mine the entire music- theory lexicon to what good use we can make of it. If we are talking technically though, a cadence almost always means a passing from a state of harmonic or rhythmic tension to one of release. What could that mean in the context of poetry? Maybe we can even ask that question in terms of prose (have we figured out what that weird thing is yet?) Sorry, questions about music as descriptor of text and vice versa are my favorite species of question in the world, so I'm just going to pretend it was the original question. I'm not sure it gets one any closer to a definition of poetry or prose, but it's really kind of endless. About 20 messages back, John Cunningham made this great metaphor out of the introduction of dissonance as the history of both music and poetry in the 20th century. I'm sure it misses something, but it seems pretty compelling to follow. What's the notion of consonance this is relying on? Is Milton consonant, where Eliot is dissonant? Is it a cognitive category (another place where a music metaphor dominates- the philosophy of psychology), like we have resolution to the extent we have cognition, irresolution where we don't understand? Who are our textual Serialists? (actually, does anyone know about anyone trying to write a poem based on a tone row? its seeming very possible to me, sitting here typing on my couch, which is a sure sign of infallibility) If we're tossing out "musical", let's please not toss out the vocabulary of music- it's so much fun. Also, what exactly would "understood" or "misunderstood" mean in a discussion about music audiences, to query Jim's definition? Would *plain song* be what you write when you believe you are going to be understood, and *lieder*, well you draw your own conclusions? On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" > -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: angela vasquez-giroux > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > respect... > > i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > descriptive words > masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > meaningless as > calling it "interesting" or "organic". > > poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the > job. we > can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > > perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > > On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: >> >> i say this with some degree of deference: >> >> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >> >> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >> plot. >> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >> >> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >> money, the >> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >> about >> meaning that drove >> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >> you have >> found some better >> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >> myself.... >> Anyway, I don't find >> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >> stanzas then? >> Or Faulkner. >> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >> fiction at >> all, but between poetry and >> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: what do you think of >> >> >> >> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >> drawn and >> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with >> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post >> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >> distinctions >> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >> about >> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >> generative or >> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >> lazy >> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has >> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and >> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >> with >> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >> relates to >> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >> such >> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >> way to >> draw a line where one is useful. >> >> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >> honestly, my >> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them >> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >> for me, >> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >> works also >> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >> as if >> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >> composed at >> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to >> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >> species. >> >> >> >> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>> >>> >>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>> boundaries >>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry >>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>> don't >>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>> poetry >>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>> management and >>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>> served? >>> Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>> do you >>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>> the >>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>> enough >>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>> attempt >>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>> >>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>> how I >>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>> them. My >>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>> where I've >>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>> say >>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>> >>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>> >>> >>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>> >>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>> >>> advantage. >>> >>>> Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:30:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Schadenfreude Comments: cc: Daniel Zimmerman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gloating? ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 6:41 PM Subject: Schadenfreude > Anyone have a one word translation in English? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:33:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Re: Schadenfreude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bush. Wait...Heliogabalus (or whoever it was really had the Bull...read it wasn't Heliogabalus but authors like Vonnegut perpetuate that and I fell for it). You could create one, a suitable neologism: delectalgia? tittilalgia? The latter one has the additional benefit of sounding "dirty." It is of course based on "tittilation." I almost crossed wires and put tittivation there for some reason. That's one of those words you can't use in ANY circumstance without sounding hopelessly misbegotten. Should there be a pass(us)-- root for suffering used instead? German has that great compounding nature so often praised, so much so I sometimes feel vicariously offended for English. But Katzensprung is darn cute! And I love to ask people to wait an "Augenblick." I just cheated at this point and asked the Oz Google after failing to fix on anything. Someone pointed out the inefficacy of "gloat" to substitute; of course they are correct. I still suspect there is an obscure polysyllabic that is a hapax legemonon in Anthony Burgess or someone of that ostentatious ilk. I was surprised to learn "schadenfreude" has been used in English since 1922. I would have thought it a 19th century importation, although the word fits the literary tenor of any time, doubtless, unfortunately, grumblegrumble ahem mmmble.... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:58:22 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W.B. Keckler" Subject: Schadenfreude apres James Chapman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I asked J.C. (no not THAT j.c.) james chapman (fugue state press novelist)=20= =20 and he found this amusing list at wiki of Greatest Hits of Schadenfreude=20 around the globe...apparently it's in the blood...everyone's blood...oy! =20 "i do love german...i came up with nothing....wiki tho has epicaricacy whic= h=20 if i knew the word i could tell you if it's good or not. most impressive is= =20 the wiki list of other languages' terms for this:" =20 * _Arabic_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Arabic_language) : =20 shamaatah (shamtan, taking pleasure in the misfortune of others) =20 * _Bulgarian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Bulgarian_language)=20= :=20 ( , evil or harm, , joy) =20 * _Chinese_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Chinese_language) : (=20= ,=20 enjoy; disaster; ; be happy for; misfortune) =20 * _Czech_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Czech_language) : =C5= =A1 kodolibost (=C5=A1koda, damage, harm, or loss, libost, pleasure) =20 * _Danish_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Danish_language) and=20 _Norwegian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Norwegian_language) : skade= fryd=20 (skade, damage, injury or harm, fryd, glee) =20 * _Dutch_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Dutch_language) : =20 leedvermaak (leed, suffering or sorrow, and vermaak, entertainment) =20 * _Esperanto_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Esperanto) : malica=20 ojo (malica, wicked, and ojo, joy) =20 * _Estonian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Estonian_language) :=20= =20 kahjur=C3=B5=C3=B5m (kahju, damage or harm and r=C3=B5=C3=B5m, joy) =20 * _Finnish_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Finnish_language) : =20 vahingonilo (vahinko, accident or damage, ilo, joy or happiness) =20 * _Greek_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Greek_language) : ( ,=20 joy or delight and , spite or ill will) =20 * _Hebrew_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Hebrew_language) : ) :=20= ,=20 joy, , misfortune, based on Proverbs 17:5) (simcha la'ed), also: " " (see=20 _Mishneh Torah_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Mishneh_Torah) , the la= ws=20 of Teshuvah chap. 4:4). =20 * _Hungarian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Hungarian_language)=20= :=20 k=C3=A1r=C3=B6r=C3=B6m (k=C3=A1r, loss or damage, =C3=B6r=C3=B6m, joy) =20 * _Lithuanian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Lithuanian_language= )=20 : piktd iuga (piktas angry, d iaugsmas joy) =20 * _Macedonian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Macedonian_language= )=20 : ( , evil or harm, , joy) =20 * _Russian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Russian_language) : (=20= ,=20 evil or harm, , joy) =20 * _Scots Gaelic_=20 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Scottish_Gaelic_language) : aighear mill= teach (aighear, delight or joy, millteach, malicious=20 or destructive) =20 * _Serbian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Serbian_language) and= =20 _Croatian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Croatian_language) : =20 /zluradost (zlo, evil, radost, joy) =20 * _Slovak_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Slovak_language) : =20= =C5=A1 kodorados (=C5=A1koda, damage, harm, or loss, rados , joy) =20 * _Slovenian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Slovenian_language)=20= :=20 =C5=A1kodo eljnost (=C5=A1koda, damage, harm, or loss, eleti, to wish) =20 * _Swedish_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Swedish_language) : =20 skadegl=C3=A4dje (skada, damage, gl=C3=A4dje, joy or happiness)=20 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:07:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) How about maliciousglee? Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Anyone have a one word translation in English? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 23:26:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Michael Mollohan" Subject: Re: Schadenfreude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit epicaricacy ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 6:41 PM Subject: Schadenfreude > Anyone have a one word translation in English? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:40:03 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071106122631.06481ce0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark, you're right enough that there will always be some degree of boundary blurring when it comes to categories that weren't created through processes such as those used in mathematics: I don't particularly desire that things be black and white. However, the act of blurring-- of actively increasing blurriness and reducing differentiation is something worth discussing the merits of. I think there have been enough experiments in that direction (indeed, the prose poem has been an institution for some time now) that the other direction may hold more space for discovery. I am primarily coming at this from the angle of my own writing practice, though I do have to ask why a writer should have a privileged position when it comes to categorizing their own work. I think you may have misunderstood the target of what I was saying about indefiniteness. That wasn't related to the main conversation but, rather, to someone's snarky response to a request I made for them to clarify one of their arguments. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 00:39:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Schadenfreude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ill pass it tio germany see what they come up with On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:41:50 -0600 mIEKAL aND writes: > Anyone have a one word translation in English? > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 00:51:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with respect... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'm told my stuff is musical all the time especially by europeans they're term not mine my poetry has a certain musicality musetry as a friend calls the concept of mixing the too MUSE On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:24:16 -0600 John Cunningham writes: > Having been a musician - jazz, latin, blues, African - prior to > getting into > writing poetry, I take offense at 'musical' being described as > non-descriptive. Poetry has always been associated with music. Music > is > sound. And what is poetry other than sound and the placing of sounds > in a > melodious cadence - with as much dissonance as the poet hears. Just > as the > development of Western Classical Music has been the opening of music > to > dissonance (consider the Gregorian and other Chants compared to say > Schoenberg or Stravinsky), it seems to me that the development of > modern and > post-modern poetry has been nothing more than opening the poem to > dissonance > - which is nothing other than music. In conclusion, let me > paraphrase what > one of the greats of North American music said regarding 'swing' - > you know > it when you hear it. And if poetry, of whatever classification or > category, > doesn't have music, it doesn't sing and it definitely doesn't work > because > even the most dissonant of post-modernism swings in its own way and > if > you're open you can hear it singing to you. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of angela vasquez-giroux > Sent: November 6, 2007 11:18 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > respect... > > i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those > non-descriptive words > masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > meaningless as > calling it "interesting" or "organic". > > poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the > job. we > can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > > perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > > On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: > > > > i say this with some degree of deference: > > > > isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > > > > novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > > when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, > plot. > > the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my > money, the > > impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > > replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing > about > > meaning that drove > > me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear > you have > > found some better > > philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout > myself.... > > Anyway, I don't find > > the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about > stanzas then? > > Or Faulkner. > > But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > fiction at > > all, but between poetry and > > expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > > Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > > > > > there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is > drawn and > > making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am > with > > Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this > post > > structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) > distinctions > > are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing > about > > the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to > generative or > > useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and > lazy > > & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than > the > > stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > > studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry > has > > line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets > and > > flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left > with > > something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > relates to > > the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been > such > > an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a > way to > > draw a line where one is useful. > > > > perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > honestly, my > > reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I > find > > Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to > them > > both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why > for me, > > the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point > of > > view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it > works also > > when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of > the > > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just > as if > > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > composed at > > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as > to > > the nature of information being conveyed by the two different > species. > > > > > > > > Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > > > > > > > Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is > that > > > between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. > You > > > might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its > boundaries > > > with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that > poetry > > > creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such > an > > > extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I > don't > > > know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS > poetry > > > (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or > in a > > > Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be > poetry > > > CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > > > I take your point about reading, and its relation to time > management and > > > personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being > served? > > > Cheers, Wystan > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > > > > > Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" > do you > > > refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? > If the > > > former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, > that enough > > > blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to > attempt > > > to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > > > > > For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not > in how I > > > write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read > them. My > > > reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point > where I've > > > even been known to say that I read prose and think about > poetry. > > > Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is > to say > > > great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about > my > > > personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > > > > > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > > > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > > > > > > > On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > > > > >> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, > seek to > > >> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results > from > > >> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > > >> > > > advantage. > > > > > >> Wystan > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1112 - Release Date: > 05/11/2007 > 7:11 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1112 - Release Date: > 05/11/2007 > 7:11 PM > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 02:46:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Cross Subject: Atticus/Finch presents: Brady/Halpern chapbook and reading! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [Please distribute this post far and wide: small press publishers depend on your effort to get the word out!] Dear Friends: Atticus/Finch is honored to announce the release of our newest chapbook, Snow Sensitive Skin, a collaborative long-poem by San Francisco authors Taylor Brady and Rob Halpern. While Atticus/Finch commissioned this work back in 2005, the collaboration didn't begin in earnest until June of 2006, in the midst of the (most recent) martial conflict between Israel and Lebanon. Taking as their point of departure Lebanese musician and visual artist Mazen Kerbaj's composition “Starry Night” (see below for a link), an improvisation between Mazen and the Israeli airforce for “trumpet and bombs,” the authors challenged themselves to face the violence of war with the deactivating non-force of the poem, drawing into stark contrast notions of responsibility, praxis, and the labor of poetry during times of war. The authors write in their acknowledgements, “if we want to give ourselves to a present that is something other than the debased ‘now,’ and to a future that will not have been terminal, every second language must be taken up as an act of love.” As such, Brady and Halpern took the very notion of collaboration to task, demanding that the composition unfold together, in the same room, in real time, in order to undergo and occupy this second language (in all of its difficulty) in a present foreign to the terminal ‘now.’ Snow Sensitive Skin is a tour de force in the most literal sense, a commitment to undertake the difficulty of language as aporia and possibility, and at 72 pages of tightly weft lines, dedicated to “the promise of demilitarized time,” this “chapbook” is certainly ambitious in scope. If that weren’t enough, folks in and around the San Francisco Bay Area will have the pleasure of seeing Brady and Halpern read from the book at its launch this Sunday, November 11th, at Oakland institution New Yipes (21 Grand, 416 25th Street) at 7pm (along with fellow poet Garrett Caples), and copies of the book will certainly be on hand for interested parties. In the meantime, for those of us happily residing elsewhere, the book can be purchased now using credit card or check. And, as is the case with all Atticus/Finch books, this volume will sell out relatively quickly, so order while you’ve got it on your mind! To obtain a copy, use your credit card at our website (www.atticusfinch.org), or send $10 (well-concealed cash, check, or money order (made payable to Michael Cross)) to: Atticus/Finch Chapbooks c/o Michael Cross State University of New York at Buffalo Samuel Clemens Hall #306 Buffalo NY 14260-4610 On a related note, we still have a few copies of Patrick Durgin’s Imitation Poems, if you’d like to bundle your order, and do keep your eyes open for the next A/F volume (coming this December), Lo, Bittern by Austin poet C.J. Martin. And, finally, here’s the link to Kerbaj’s “Starry Night:” www.muniak.com/mazen_kerbaj-starry_night.mp3 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 00:02:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Ammons In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It was Ted Berrigan who first advised me to read Archie Ammons' poetry. As an interesting poet outside of schools or groups, in the tradition of Williams. True, Ted, an admirer of Conrad Aiken as well, had justifiably catholic tastes, but that does not mean he was not right about the poetry. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:03:05 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: what do you think of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What you both have to say accords at one level what goes on in my own = writing life. But writing for oneself, for one's own understanding = alone, is the fall back position, the limit case. I don't think any of = us would bother if we didn't think we might extend the size of our = expected audience, which is to say poetry IS what you write when you = think you might be understood.Wystan ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Murat Nemet-Nejat Sent: Wed 7/11/2007 6:37 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of I think Jim is onto something important here. What differentiates prose = from poetry, in our time, is the size of the expected audience -or, are you speaking to an audience outside you or are you yourself the original audience you are appealing to. Ciao, Murat On Nov 5, 2007 7:10 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > prose is what you write when you think you might be understood; = poetry, > well, you draw your own conclusions. > > ja > http://vispo.com =20 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:23:25 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Elizabeth, all writing has power. It would seem to be a reason to write. Not all writing has the same power. As to the power of prose, I spoke of = volume yes, the extent of the cultural space in which the languages of = prose are the norm and I gave you some examples. Were these bad = examples? Try putting poetry where it does not belong, which is almost = everywhere. Wystan. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj Sent: Wednesday, 7 November 2007 4:27 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of Alison: I don't think that the decision to write prose is about a desire = for power: I was attempting to clarify what Wystan meant about prose ruling = the world and to consider some of the potential implications of that and = the rest of what he had to say. Wystan: yes, conversations do often involve a degree of indefiniteness, = but I really can't have a discussion with you if I don't know what = you're talking about. If you're talking about sheer volume, which seems = to be the implication of your most recent email, I'm still not really = sure how that's a recommendation for blurring boundaries. Nor do I = think you have any "powers": it's simply that your email seemed to imply that seeking power = was a reasonable aim for one's writing (in that a poet should blur = boundaries with prose since prose "rules"). If I misunderstood, I'm = sorry, but that's what happens when one rolls with indefiniteness, I'm = afraid. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 04:32:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0711060937g5ed184a5q73b9d6f19e178233@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit other takes: poetry is for writing what no one understands when it needs saying anyway. prose is for saying it poorly. poetry is what nobody knows what it is except when they don't. there has to be a joke in a distinction between prose and poetry. not to dismiss the distinction as laughable but to indicate complication. if we don't know what poetry is, distinctions between prose and poetry are going to sound like distinctions between ideals based on hat size or whether one is wearing plaid. we don't really know what we're talking about but, then, poetry is the art of being profoundly vague. ja http://vispo.com > I think Jim is onto something important here. What differentiates > prose from > poetry, in our time, is the size of the expected audience -or, are you > speaking to an audience outside you or are you yourself the original > audience you are appealing to. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > On Nov 5, 2007 7:10 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > prose is what you write when you think you might be understood; poetry, > > well, you draw your own conclusions. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 13:11:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <3C765CAA-EA50-412E-BA9C-73603412B6D9@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from any overt content they might have. Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and 'feminine' line endings, rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the poem's 'music.' So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or connotational) aspects of any piece of writing (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are sweeter," etc). But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems more musical because it seems more meaningful. Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" over another kind of music, categorically. It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over punk music" (or vice versa) It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. Chris On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" > -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: angela vasquez-giroux > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > respect... > > i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > descriptive words > masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > meaningless as > calling it "interesting" or "organic". > > poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the > job. we > can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > > perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > > On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: >> >> i say this with some degree of deference: >> >> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >> >> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >> plot. >> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >> >> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >> money, the >> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >> about >> meaning that drove >> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >> you have >> found some better >> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >> myself.... >> Anyway, I don't find >> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >> stanzas then? >> Or Faulkner. >> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >> fiction at >> all, but between poetry and >> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: what do you think of >> >> >> >> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >> drawn and >> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with >> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post >> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >> distinctions >> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >> about >> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >> generative or >> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >> lazy >> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has >> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and >> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >> with >> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >> relates to >> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >> such >> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >> way to >> draw a line where one is useful. >> >> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >> honestly, my >> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them >> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >> for me, >> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >> works also >> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >> as if >> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >> composed at >> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to >> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >> species. >> >> >> >> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>> >>> >>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>> boundaries >>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry >>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>> don't >>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>> poetry >>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>> management and >>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>> served? >>> Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>> do you >>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>> the >>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>> enough >>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>> attempt >>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>> >>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>> how I >>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>> them. My >>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>> where I've >>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>> say >>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>> >>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>> >>> >>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>> >>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>> >>> advantage. >>> >>>> Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:23:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hal's got it pretty close. German makes words by yoking two words together without a space in between. There's no way that English can replicate this, and no reason it should. How about a one-word translation of gesamtkunstwerk or weltschmerz? Fortunately we get to borrow. And fortunately translation isn't a word-for-word business. Mark At 11:07 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >How about maliciousglee? > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard@earthlink.net >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > >On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >>Anyone have a one word translation in English? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 05:44:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Truitt Subject: Re: WGA Strike MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi and thanks for the information yet not certain how to support substantively except that the poets might consider striking. I wonder how long it would take for that news to hit the stands? ----- Original Message ---- From: Catherine Daly To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 9:49:42 PM Subject: WGA Strike Hi. I would like to inform you, especially those who are not in the U.S. and may not know or care, that the Writers Guild of America is on strike. I would also like to encourage some conversation, debate, and support for the WGA writers. The Writers Guild is one of the few white collar/artistic labor unions. Of the others, while most SAG (Screen Actors Guild) members are respecting the picket lines, the DGA (Directors Guild) is not. The Hollywood Teamsters, and also individual Teamsters, are also not crossing picket lines. The last writers' strike, which lasted five months, gave rise to reality tv (which requires fewer, and more easily non-union, writers). This writers' strike will take an estimated 1 billion dollars a month from the US economy. GE, Sony, Time Warner, etc. -- are diversified and multinational enough not to care. The debates are many: - residuals for online screenings or downloads -- not about napster-esque stealing and swapping: the studios are running television shows and feature films on their own websites without paying the writers residuals. they are additionally saying that these are "experiments" for "marketing purposes" while 1) one cable network runs all of its film programming ad-free and pays residuals according to contract formulas, 2) part of this marketing is building share for the network and for the shows, which should be compensated, 3) we are no longer in the experimental phase of internet advertising, broadband, etc. - residuals for the creative offspring of film and tv: so-called "baby writers" are exploited by the networks, and regular staff writers are required, to write webisodes for existing shows for internet-only showings. neither the creators of the characters, situations -- the show -- nor the writers of the webisodes are paid residuals. sometimes, they're not paid for writing them. - do not be fooled by studios saying they want to pay residuals to writers, actors after shows or films make a profit. studios, now all part of large corporations, are now able to manipulate the books so that shows officially never show a profit. for example, the simpsons, one of the most popular and longest-running television shows thus far, and one with only voice actors, is officially still in the red. - the WGA has been forced to make significant cuts in its union health care benefit, especially to writers who live outside Los Angeles, and has extended the number of working years to become fully vested in the health benefits. At any one time, less than 5% of the WGA members are working. the average WGA member makes less money per year from writing than a minor league hockey player. [there have been some ravings I've heard about the average salary being close to what the average first team major league male athlete makes: not so] -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:03:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: WGA Strike In-Reply-To: <28537.20898.qm@web50207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I only know one poet who gets paid, and it isn't for writing, it is for teaching. On Nov 7, 2007 8:44 AM, Sam Truitt wrote: > Hi and thanks for the information yet not certain > how to support substantively except that the poets > might consider striking. I wonder how long it would > take for that news to hit the stands? > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Catherine Daly > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 9:49:42 PM > Subject: WGA Strike > > > Hi. I would like to inform you, especially those who are not in the > U.S. > and may not know or care, that the Writers Guild of America is on > strike. > > I would also like to encourage some conversation, debate, and support > for > the WGA writers. > > The Writers Guild is one of the few white collar/artistic labor unions. > Of > the others, while most SAG (Screen Actors Guild) members are respecting > the > picket lines, the DGA (Directors Guild) is not. The Hollywood > Teamsters, > and also individual Teamsters, are also not crossing picket lines. > > The last writers' strike, which lasted five months, gave rise to > reality tv > (which requires fewer, and more easily non-union, writers). This > writers' > strike will take an estimated 1 billion dollars a month from the US > economy. GE, Sony, Time Warner, etc. -- are diversified and > multinational > enough not to care. > > The debates are many: > > - residuals for online screenings or downloads -- not about > napster-esque > stealing and swapping: the studios are running television shows and > feature > films on their own websites without paying the writers residuals. they > are > additionally saying that these are "experiments" for "marketing > purposes" > while 1) one cable network runs all of its film programming ad-free and > pays > residuals according to contract formulas, 2) part of this marketing is > building share for the network and for the shows, which should be > compensated, 3) we are no longer in the experimental phase of internet > advertising, broadband, etc. > > - residuals for the creative offspring of film and tv: so-called "baby > writers" are exploited by the networks, and regular staff writers are > required, to write webisodes for existing shows for internet-only > showings. > neither the creators of the characters, situations -- the show -- nor > the > writers of the webisodes are paid residuals. sometimes, they're not > paid > for writing them. > > - do not be fooled by studios saying they want to pay residuals to > writers, > actors after shows or films make a profit. studios, now all part of > large corporations, are now able to manipulate the books so that shows > officially never show a profit. for example, the simpsons, one of the > most > popular and longest-running television shows thus far, and one with > only > voice actors, is officially still in the red. > > - the WGA has been forced to make significant cuts in its union health > care > benefit, especially to writers who live outside Los Angeles, and has > extended the number of working years to become fully vested in the > health > benefits. > > At any one time, less than 5% of the WGA members are working. the > average > WGA member makes less money per year from writing than a minor league > hockey > player. [there have been some ravings I've heard about the average > salary > being close to what the average first team major league male athlete > makes: > not so] > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:10:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <3C765CAA-EA50-412E-BA9C-73603412B6D9@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Chris, Thanks for making a lucid argument about musicality, etc. You've got it exactly correct--it is the abuse and the shorthand of so many terms applied to poetry that get my goat. Angela On Nov 6, 2007 10:16 PM, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > For me, there can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > 'feminine' line endings, > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > poem's 'music.' > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > sweeter," etc). > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > over another kind of music, categorically. > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > punk music" (or vice versa) > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > Chris > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > > > I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > > distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" > > -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > > modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: angela vasquez-giroux > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > > Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > > respect... > > > > i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > > descriptive words > > masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > > meaningless as > > calling it "interesting" or "organic". > > > > poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the > > job. we > > can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > > > > perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > > > > On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: > >> > >> i say this with some degree of deference: > >> > >> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > >> > >> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > >> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, > >> plot. > >> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > >> > >> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my > >> money, the > >> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > >> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing > >> about > >> meaning that drove > >> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear > >> you have > >> found some better > >> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout > >> myself.... > >> Anyway, I don't find > >> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about > >> stanzas then? > >> Or Faulkner. > >> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > >> fiction at > >> all, but between poetry and > >> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > >> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >> > >> > >> > >> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is > >> drawn and > >> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with > >> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post > >> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) > >> distinctions > >> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing > >> about > >> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to > >> generative or > >> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and > >> lazy > >> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > >> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > >> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has > >> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and > >> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left > >> with > >> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > >> relates to > >> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been > >> such > >> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a > >> way to > >> draw a line where one is useful. > >> > >> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > >> honestly, my > >> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > >> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them > >> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why > >> for me, > >> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > >> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it > >> works also > >> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > >> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > >> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just > >> as if > >> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > >> composed at > >> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > >> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > >> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different > >> species. > >> > >> > >> > >> Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > >>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > >>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its > >>> boundaries > >>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > >>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > >>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I > >>> don't > >>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS > >>> poetry > >>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > >>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > >>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > >>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time > >>> management and > >>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being > >>> served? > >>> Cheers, Wystan > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group > >>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > >>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > >>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>> > >>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" > >>> do you > >>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If > >>> the > >>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that > >>> enough > >>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to > >>> attempt > >>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > >>> > >>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in > >>> how I > >>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read > >>> them. My > >>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point > >>> where I've > >>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > >>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to > >>> say > >>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > >>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > >>> > >>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj > >>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > >>> > >>> > >>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>> > >>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to > >>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from > >>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >>>> > >>> advantage. > >>> > >>>> Wystan > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >> http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:22:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz Subject: RUCH & TIETZ @ Pyramid Atlantic, Saturday 11/10, 8 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed RUTHLESS GRIP POETRY SERIES @ Pyramid Atlantic Art Center Saturday, November 10, 2007, 8:00PM G=FCnther Ruch and Ward Tietz Media artist G=FCnther Ruch's work ranges from mail-art, to film, to =20 installation, to sound and visual poetry. His graphic work has been =20 exhibited and collected around the world, and his films have been =20 shown at a variety of festivals and on European television. =46rom =20 1983 to 1988 he edited the international mailart- & assembling-=20 magazine "clinch" with participation of some 400 international =20 artists around the globe. Since 1973 he has been editor of Out Press. Working in a variety of media, from sculpture to works on paper, Ward =20= Tietz has exhibited and performed his poetic works in festivals, art =20 centers and museums in the United Sates and Europe since the late =20 1980s. His current works include Hg-The Liquid, which is forthcoming =20= from 1913 Press and the word sculpture installation la chasse-=20 cueillette, which opens in February at the Villa Bernasconi Museum in =20= Geneva, Switzerland. Pyramid Atlantic Art Center is located at 8230 Georgia Avenue in =20 Silver Spring, MD, three blocks from the Metro red line. Directions: http://www.pyramidatlanticartcenter.org/about/contact.htm We hope you can join us for the reading and the festivities afterwards. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:53:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Fwd: slippingglimpse MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Here are some visual poetics well worth a visit: Charlotte Begin forwarded message: From: Stephanie Strickland Date: November 7, 2007 8:47:02 AM EST To: WOM-PO@LISTS.USM.MAINE.EDU Subject: slippingglimpse Reply-To: Discussion of Women's Poetry List now online http://slippingglimpse.org Stephanie Strickland, Cynthia Lawson Jaramillo, Paul Ryan introduced at e-Poetry 2007 (Paris) in May slippingglimpse is a 10-part interactive generative Flash poem combining video and text apologies for x-posting http://stephaniestrickland.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:10:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: WGA Strike In-Reply-To: <28537.20898.qm@web50207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It is pretty unclear now, especially as it is only day 3. My husband went to his strike line, at CBS Radford, at 5 a.m., to block deliveries. He says they are not sure if they should be encouraging a boycott of GE, say, or Sony, or even of Universal Studios or the Disney parks or Time Warner cable. Our GE dishwasher is broken, and they are coming out to fix it for the second time in a month. During the last SAG strike, I worked at the fire station on the Universal lot on an emergency notification system (as a contractor). It is not even clear if WGA can articulate to the public what should be boycotted -- (non-scripted, foreign, scab-written) replacement programming -- especially since already-written programming and film should not be boycotted, and since sports writers are not covered by the union and I believe PBS shows and news are in a grey area. Of course, it is really important not to write or revise a tv show, movie, or webisode, or even write jokes for a talk show host or news anchor for a major studio or network while the union is on strike. So, poets, if Disney gives you a ring, says they need a few over the shoulder (or tail) lines for a talking dog movie, say no. Uh, and don't appear on that O'Reilly show or watch reality tv. Or maybe this is a great time to appear on the O'Reilly show if he doesn't do his own writing. all best, Catherine On Nov 7, 2007 5:44 AM, Sam Truitt wrote: > Hi and thanks for the information yet not certain > how to support substantively except that the poets > might consider striking. I wonder how long it would > take for that news to hit the stands? > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:51:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry/structure/ some musing of Borgess In-Reply-To: <3C765CAA-EA50-412E-BA9C-73603412B6D9@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit structure, too: as i'm usually posting on the run, i wrote: isn't poetry more musical? poets count. i should have left out counting as it suggest that one is using a metronome, counting accents. perhaps i was thinking of Borges when i mentioned the musical quality of poetry. Borges, in "The Craft of Poetry," makes a larger claim. he considers all art as aspiring to music/where there's no separation of form & content. in a lyric poem, i find that a good opening line seems to dictate the nature of the poem. when writing a play (i've attempted a few), i seem to intuitively sense an overall sense of the works structure. i doubt that most creative work is the result of as much linguistic hairsplitting as some the comments i've read suggest. Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and 'feminine' line endings, rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the poem's 'music.' So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or connotational) aspects of any piece of writing (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are sweeter," etc). But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems more musical because it seems more meaningful. Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" over another kind of music, categorically. It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over punk music" (or vice versa) It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. Chris On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" > -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: angela vasquez-giroux > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > respect... > > i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > descriptive words > masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > meaningless as > calling it "interesting" or "organic". > > poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the > job. we > can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > > perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > > On 11/6/07, steve russell wrote: >> >> i say this with some degree of deference: >> >> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >> >> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >> plot. >> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >> >> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >> money, the >> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >> about >> meaning that drove >> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >> you have >> found some better >> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >> myself.... >> Anyway, I don't find >> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >> stanzas then? >> Or Faulkner. >> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >> fiction at >> all, but between poetry and >> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: what do you think of >> >> >> >> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >> drawn and >> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with >> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post >> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >> distinctions >> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >> about >> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >> generative or >> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >> lazy >> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has >> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and >> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >> with >> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >> relates to >> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >> such >> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >> way to >> draw a line where one is useful. >> >> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >> honestly, my >> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them >> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >> for me, >> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >> works also >> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >> as if >> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >> composed at >> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to >> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >> species. >> >> >> >> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>> >>> >>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>> boundaries >>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry >>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>> don't >>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>> poetry >>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>> management and >>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>> served? >>> Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>> do you >>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>> the >>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>> enough >>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>> attempt >>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>> >>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>> how I >>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>> them. My >>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>> where I've >>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>> say >>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>> >>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>> >>> >>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>> >>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to >>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>> >>> advantage. >>> >>>> Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:59:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i like the privileged position point. Derrida attracted me mainly because the guy could write. unfortunately, it's hard to say ditto for many of his followers ( pretty much everything i've been reading so far has been, thankfully, in English.). some of the deconstruction stuff i've read has made me think of a local commercial for Country Music, to wit: Music i can hum, lyrics i can understand. Elizabeth Switaj wrote: Mark, you're right enough that there will always be some degree of boundary blurring when it comes to categories that weren't created through processes such as those used in mathematics: I don't particularly desire that things be black and white. However, the act of blurring-- of actively increasing blurriness and reducing differentiation is something worth discussing the merits of. I think there have been enough experiments in that direction (indeed, the prose poem has been an institution for some time now) that the other direction may hold more space for discovery. I am primarily coming at this from the angle of my own writing practice, though I do have to ask why a writer should have a privileged position when it comes to categorizing their own work. I think you may have misunderstood the target of what I was saying about indefiniteness. That wasn't related to the main conversation but, rather, to someone's snarky response to a request I made for them to clarify one of their arguments. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:24:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <584469.30226.qm@web86011.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove my point. Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt content" as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or persona. Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) from the other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it would be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the beats as much as the words and the voice. And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent melody, as much as rhythm. One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how one is less "musical" than the other. Chris On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > any overt content they might have. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > 'feminine' line endings, > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > poem's 'music.' > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > sweeter," etc). > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > over another kind of music, categorically. > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > punk music" (or vice versa) > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > Chris > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: angela vasquez-giroux >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >> respect... >> >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >> descriptive words >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >> meaningless as >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >> >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >> job. we >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >> >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >> >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > wrote: >>> >>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>> >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>> >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>> plot. >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>> money, the >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>> about >>> meaning that drove >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>> you have >>> found some better >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>> myself.... >>> Anyway, I don't find >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>> stanzas then? >>> Or Faulkner. >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>> fiction at >>> all, but between poetry and >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> >>> >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>> drawn and >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>> with >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>> post >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>> distinctions >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>> about >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>> generative or >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>> lazy >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>> has >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>> and >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>> with >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>> relates to >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>> such >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>> way to >>> draw a line where one is useful. >>> >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>> honestly, my >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>> them >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>> for me, >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>> works also >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>> as if >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>> composed at >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>> as to >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>> species. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>> boundaries >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>> poetry >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>> don't >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>> poetry >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>> management and >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>> served? >>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>> do you >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>> the >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>> enough >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>> attempt >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>> >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>> how I >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>> them. My >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>> where I've >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>> say >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>> seek to >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>> >>>> advantage. >>>> >>>>> Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:28:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20071107082059.06117f48@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Mark=97I like and agree with what you say here but I'm setting this up =20= as a constraint to begin with. I'm curious how Pierre would approach =20= this? With his Celan translations he peppers his version with really =20= interesting & readable neologisms. I vastly prefer his approach to =20 the other Celan translations I've sampled. But on the otherhand why doesn't "gloat" work? ~mIEKAL the monoglot On Nov 7, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Hal's got it pretty close. German makes words by yoking two words =20 > together without a space in between. There's no way that English =20 > can replicate this, and no reason it should. How about a one-word =20 > translation of gesamtkunstwerk or weltschmerz? Fortunately we get =20 > to borrow. And fortunately translation isn't a word-for-word business. > > Mark > > At 11:07 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >> How about maliciousglee? >> >> Hal >> >> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >>> Anyone have a one word translation in English? > He that uses many words for explaining any subject, doth, like the cuttlefish, hide himself for the most part in his own ink. -John Ray, naturalist = (1627-1705) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 01:30:18 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wystan, that "all writing has power" is not relevant here. Power means different things, and I was trying to figure out what you meant. Your examples were fine, I suppose, but I still (I repeat) don't see how the greater volume of prose is a recommendation for further blurring the division between prose and poetry "Try putting poetry where it does not belong, which is almost everywhere." I don't find that to be true. If you do, perhaps you're not trying hard enough. And, really, you have a bit of a problem here since, in order to put poetry in a place where it seems not to belong, you must know that what you are putting there is, in fact, poetry, which would seem to call for a stronger differentiation, not a weaker one. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:41:46 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an example of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he gives it in something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier discussion, this is somehow related to my feeling that there is as much torque in poem by Philip Larkin as in one by any given Language poet.) And yet, and yet...as genres, jazz still seems more "musical" to me than country, the reason being somehow tied to the fact that if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do something like scat singing, to push his interpretation into some more abstract area--if he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his producer have yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to follow him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it but can't define it" adhesion is radicality. But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any solo recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early records. Chris Stroffolino wrote: Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove my point. Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt content" as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or persona. Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) from the other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it would be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the beats as much as the words and the voice. And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent melody, as much as rhythm. One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how one is less "musical" than the other. Chris On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > any overt content they might have. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > 'feminine' line endings, > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > poem's 'music.' > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > sweeter," etc). > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > over another kind of music, categorically. > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > punk music" (or vice versa) > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > Chris > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: angela vasquez-giroux >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >> respect... >> >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >> descriptive words >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >> meaningless as >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >> >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >> job. we >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >> >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >> >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > wrote: >>> >>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>> >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>> >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>> plot. >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>> money, the >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>> about >>> meaning that drove >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>> you have >>> found some better >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>> myself.... >>> Anyway, I don't find >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>> stanzas then? >>> Or Faulkner. >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>> fiction at >>> all, but between poetry and >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> >>> >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>> drawn and >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>> with >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>> post >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>> distinctions >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>> about >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>> generative or >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>> lazy >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>> has >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>> and >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>> with >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>> relates to >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>> such >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>> way to >>> draw a line where one is useful. >>> >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>> honestly, my >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>> them >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>> for me, >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>> works also >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>> as if >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>> composed at >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>> as to >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>> species. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>> boundaries >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>> poetry >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>> don't >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>> poetry >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>> management and >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>> served? >>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>> do you >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>> the >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>> enough >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>> attempt >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>> >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>> how I >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>> them. My >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>> where I've >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>> say >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>> seek to >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>> >>>> advantage. >>>> >>>>> Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:21:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: julia bloch Subject: EMERGENCY reading 11/15: Reb Livingston and erica kaufman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The EMERGENCY Series Presents REB LIVINGSTON and ERICA KAUFMAN Thursday | November 15 | 6pm-7pm Kelly Writers House | 3805 Locust Walk University of Pennsylvania The Emergency Series at Kelly Writers House highlights perspectives on the current state of American poetry through the diverse experiences of its working poets. We've created an ongoing dialogue about the role poetic lineage plays in a poet's development, and its impact on the vitality of the craft. REB LIVINGSTON is the author of Your Ten Favorite Words published by Coconut Books (www.yourtenfavoritewords.com), editor of No Tell Motel (www.notellmotel.org) and publisher of No Tell Books (www.notellbooks.org). With Molly Arden, she co-edits The Bedside Guide to No Tell Motel anthology series. ERICA KAUFMAN is the author of several chapbooks, including censory impulse (big game books, 2007) and a familiar album (winner of the 2003 New School University Chapbook Contest). erica is also the co-curator/co-publisher of Belladonna*/Belladonna Books. She lives in Brooklyn. http://emergency-reading.blogspot.com/ http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:02:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Reminder: Sightings and Hearings: Huth & Hill at the Stain Bar, Nov. 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit go geof go send me yer e mail On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:56:37 -0800 Schneider Hill writes: > Poets Crag Hill and Geof Huth will give a reading entitled "Sightings > & > Hearings" at the Stain Bar in Brooklyn, New York, on November 16th. > Combining their interest in visual, sound, and even textual poetry, > they > will read and perform, together and apart, a wide range of works. > This will > be the first time Hill and Huth have performed together since their > performance in March of this year, so don't miss this east coast > appearance. > If a reading isn't enough encouragement, Stain Bar has a great > selection of > New-York-only beer and other drinks. > > > Crag Hill and Geof Huth > Friday, 16 November 2007 > 6:30 pm > Stain Bar > 766 Grand Street > Brooklyn, New York > 718/387-7840 > > To get to Stain Bar, take the L train to Grand and go one block west > to 766 > Grand Street by the way of Graham Avenue and Humboldt Street. > > For those who attend, Hill will offer Nico Vassilakis' Text Loses > Time for > $12.00! Ask him for one. > > Bios of the Performers: > > Crag Hill has been exploring the world through the prisms of verbal > and > visual language since his re-birth in the 1970s. Writer of numerous > chapbooks and/or other print interventions, including Dict > (Xexoxial > Endarchy), Another Switch (Norton Coker Press), and Yes James, Yes > Joyce > (Loose Gravel Press), he has also once edited two magazines, Score > and its > successor Spore. His latest book, co-edited with Bob Grumman, is > Writing to > be Seen, the first major anthology of visual poetry in 30 years. He > writes > frequently about poetry at his blog, Crg Hill's poetry scorecard . > > Geof Huth is a writer of textual and visual poetry who has lived on > most of > the continents on earth. He writes frequently about visual poetry, > especially on his weblog, dbqp: visualizing poetics. His chapbooks > include > "Analphabet," "The Dreams of the Fishwife," "ghostlight," > "Peristyle," "To a > Small Stream of Water (or Ditch)," and "wreadings." Huth edited &2: > an/thology of Pwoermds, the first-ever anthology of one-word poems. > His most > recent books are a box of pages entitled water vapour and the > chapbook, "Out > of Character." > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 19:26:34 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (Johnny is musical, but the music he sings isn't particularly--does that make any sense?) Chris Stroffolino wrote: Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove my point. Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt content" as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or persona. Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) from the other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it would be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the beats as much as the words and the voice. And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent melody, as much as rhythm. One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how one is less "musical" than the other. Chris On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > any overt content they might have. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > 'feminine' line endings, > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > poem's 'music.' > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > sweeter," etc). > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > over another kind of music, categorically. > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > punk music" (or vice versa) > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > Chris > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: angela vasquez-giroux >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >> respect... >> >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >> descriptive words >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >> meaningless as >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >> >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >> job. we >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >> >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >> >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > wrote: >>> >>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>> >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>> >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>> plot. >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>> money, the >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>> about >>> meaning that drove >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>> you have >>> found some better >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>> myself.... >>> Anyway, I don't find >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>> stanzas then? >>> Or Faulkner. >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>> fiction at >>> all, but between poetry and >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> >>> >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>> drawn and >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>> with >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>> post >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>> distinctions >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>> about >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>> generative or >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>> lazy >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>> has >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>> and >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>> with >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>> relates to >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>> such >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>> way to >>> draw a line where one is useful. >>> >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>> honestly, my >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>> them >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>> for me, >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>> works also >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>> as if >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>> composed at >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>> as to >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>> species. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>> boundaries >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>> poetry >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>> don't >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>> poetry >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>> management and >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>> served? >>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>> do you >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>> the >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>> enough >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>> attempt >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>> >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>> how I >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>> them. My >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>> where I've >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>> say >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>> seek to >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>> >>>> advantage. >>>> >>>>> Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:03:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric unger Subject: Re: Ammons In-Reply-To: <80109.40347.qm@web52004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The book-length poem "Glare" was my first exposure to Ammons. I was surprised at the amount of humor in that work, and the amount of elegant formal solutions he employed in poem's writing. Going back to earlier books, I was surprised at the amount of nature imagery in the work. Tape for the Turn of the Year is a favorite, but other wonderful poems are scattered throughout his life's work. He was strongly impacted by Ashbery, especially later in life. On 11/7/07, Schuchat Simon wrote: > It was Ted Berrigan who first advised me to read Archie Ammons' poetry. As an interesting poet outside of schools or groups, in the tradition of Williams. True, Ted, an admirer of Conrad Aiken as well, had justifiably catholic tastes, but that does not mean he was not right about the poetry. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:47:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: what do you think of ("you talkin' to me?") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline When i was a kid in fifth grade the difference between prose and poetry seemed to be one of counting. In poetry, one counted--syllables, meters, stresses, beats, numbers of lines, patterns of numbers of lines, patterns of which numbered lines rhymed, what types of poems go with which numbers of this or that combination of these. Even in "free verse" there were forms of counting that could be applied. The purpose of the various calculations--it seemed then--was to arrange words in such combinations as to create the maximum effect with the minimum of language. Each particle of the poem had to have a highly charged energy brought into a direction of movement that is organized in terms of the arrangements of the elements. (The elements being sounds, rhythms, assonances, dissonances, alliterations, shiftings of syllables within words for interior rhymes, spacings of words and lines, the uses of allusion, onomatopoia, etc. etc.) In a poem it seemed the particles are pushed to the foreground, to a surface. The poems I liked were the ones that left the surface, or dove below, where the effect is created not by the visible counted elements, but an invisible charge that happens in in-between among the combining and arranging of elements and makes a quantum or alchemical leap. The in-between is like a "beat we in"--a musical beat in which the tones an= d reverberations of the sounds go beyond the "notes." In prose, something mysterious occurs, because there is no counting. Effects are achieved through the working with fragments. Prose isn't built on a sentence or paragraph anymore than a poem is, not in the way these are claustrophobically and captivally categorized as, at any rate. In Faulkner's As I Lie Dying, for example, a whole chapter is this fragment: "My mother is a fish." In Roberto Bolano's By Night in Chile, or the later Henry James and the works of Javier Marias, a "sentence" may last for a few pages. The alluvial accumulation of clauses, fragments, brings about a different form of breathing in the articulation, as in Olson's sense of the breath in articulating a poem. The accretion of fragments creates an architectonic musical form. Yet since it is made of fragments, it is not organized --or heard--in the same minute precisions as a poem. It pulses an= d flows with varying speeds and spaces of time. A different form of listening is involved, yet al the same one not so far removed from poetry that one can't find a shell on the shore of either and not hear the ocean of the other. In reading prose, one hears differing musics than in poetry--the beat is pu= t together in a different way--because one is not as tied to the counting aspect. The tensions and speeds shift with a different structure, which ca= n be made of fragments of many elements at once--the scenic aspect, the anti-/narrative direction, character, descriptive fragment--.more like a movie-- I tend to read everything as a form of particle, and then a fragment, starting with the simple existence of a mark on a page--or anything off the page also--but with the written in the Roman alphabet, the letter for starters, and a sound--fragments are the extensions of these that first com= e along--one may read any single letter, a syllable, a word, in such a variet= y of registers and tones, with suggestions of so many reverberating sounds--let alone meanings--echoes--that the study of any stretch of writin= g can be found opening into a myriad directions of writing. "A poem to be a poem has to have a direction," Williams wrote--and the same can be said for any form of writing that involves the life of the senses. Perhaps one of the reasons for the kinds of opacity that readers of poetry can demonstrate towards prose and vice versa--is that it is just that, the reader, who makes these distinctions and finds these "blanks and ruins" in the writing less preferable to them. The writing itself is working at a very high level when good, it is that the effects that are being sought differ in the means used to attain their arrival. It is also a matter of taste based on specialization. The poet perhaps thinks that the technical aspects of poetry make it more "complex" than prose. The prose writer claims to face problems no poet ever does. One ca= n be blind, deaf to the other. A kind of alienation can set in. The other's specialized form is like a country which one has lost any interest in other than as a kind of exercise in the travel of forebearance. Yet at the particle, the fragment--at this level--the dance and song, musics, the visibles and invisibles, the odors and tastes--all are possibility--and so in writing and reading with these--to expand, extend th= e awarenesses found along the way. That the technical aspect alone is not the key is proven by a myriad works. Cocteau noted that the cinema records death at work. Writing is a way that essays to work with time in such a manner that even working with words that disintegrate, go out of use, fade away as unheard sounds, ("dead languages"), the notations of the sensual apprehension of existence endure, continue obdurately signalling, from "remote pasts and remote futures". The petroglyphs and cave paintings, a myriad fragments of notations found worldwide, indicate this presence of writing even in the absence of "meanings" or "sounds"--the visual activity of the signs begins to trigger = a response--movements, sounds, the finding from particles and fragments the energy and direction of poetry & prose. Rather than privilege one over the other--it seems more interesting that there may be many many already found and many more as yet to find--of any kind of writing--making use of the evidences existing--and those their energies and directions may be moving towards--ever as yet unknown--yet whe= n found having a form of uncanny recognition-- That is in part why I do the works with paint and rubBEings with found fragments and particles in the physical world--to give a sense that what there is existing in poetry and prose is ever indicating that which is hidden in plain site/sight/cite-- On Nov 6, 2007 9:28 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > > > > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:45:16 -0800 > > From: poet_in_hell@YAHOO.COM > > Subject: Re: what do you think of > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > i can't find my Stevens. i remember the poem for its musical grace and > it's philosophical contrast: art/nature. > > > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: 'what she sang was > uttered word by word' (Stevens, 'The Idea of Order at Key West') =3D (a > certain idea of) poetry > > > > Alison Croggon wrote: Jason: > > > > "If I read something about > > "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > > sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just as i= f > > > I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art composed at > > the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > > because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > > > > But from my observation - as a reader and a writer of prose and poetry = - > > novels are composed at the level of the _sentence_, not the paragraph - > and > > what about people like Jose Saramago or David Albahari, who don't use > > paragraphs at all? (As Patrick White said - one of the most illuminatin= g > and > > helpful things I've ever read about writing novels - a novel is written > > sentence by sentence.) You could perhaps make the beginnings of a > > distinction here, by saying that - as I believe - poetry is composed in > > lines (I don't think poetry has much to do with sentences at all, > frankly). > > Even if, as in a prose poem, it's a very long line. Or you could say > with > > Olson that poetry is composed in the syllable and the ear, which might > take > > care of the flash poetry. I don't think either art is about "the nature > of > > information" they "convey". Both _are_ something. Yes, they differ, but > I've > > never read a satisfactory account of what that difference is. Maybe the > > crudest is best -there's something encyclopaedic about novels, they > amass > > detail, while poems discard it. > > > > Elizabeth, I don't understand what you mean - are you saying the > decision to > > write prose is about a desire for power? What kind of prose do you mean= ? > > What kind of power? There are prose works that equally "vibrate" with > the > > reader, that are as multiple as any poems. Maybe you're referring to a > > particular kind of prose and I am thinking of another. I presume we're > > talking about what's generally and perhaps a little depressingly known > as > > "creative prose". > > > > I've no objection to distinctions. I do however find claims that poetry > is > > somehow inherently superior to prose (it doesn't seek power, it > relinquishes > > some kind of control, prose is a vehicle, poetry the passenger, > whatever) > > irksome. As are claims to the reverse. > > > > All best > > > > A > > > > > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------ > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Sto= p > by today! > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 22:46:19 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It's all here: http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=3Dende&p=3DKO6ek.&search=3DSchadenfreude Schadenfreude is the best translation, :-) On 11/7/07, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > Mark=97I like and agree with what you say here but I'm setting this up > as a constraint to begin with. I'm curious how Pierre would approach > this? With his Celan translations he peppers his version with really > interesting & readable neologisms. I vastly prefer his approach to > the other Celan translations I've sampled. > > But on the otherhand why doesn't "gloat" work? > > ~mIEKAL the monoglot > > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > Hal's got it pretty close. German makes words by yoking two words > > together without a space in between. There's no way that English > > can replicate this, and no reason it should. How about a one-word > > translation of gesamtkunstwerk or weltschmerz? Fortunately we get > > to borrow. And fortunately translation isn't a word-for-word business. > > > > Mark > > > > At 11:07 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: > >> How about maliciousglee? > >> > >> Hal > >> > >> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >> > >>> Anyone have a one word translation in English? > > > > He that uses many words for explaining any subject, doth, like the > cuttlefish, hide himself for the most part in his own ink. > -John Ray, naturalist (1627-1705) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 13:51:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Schadenfreude apres James Chapman In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I LOVE "skadagladje!" Thanks for this list On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, W.B. Keckler wrote: > I asked J.C. (no not THAT j.c.) james chapman (fugue state press novelis= t) > and he found this amusing list at wiki of Greatest Hits of Schadenfreude > around the globe...apparently it's in the blood...everyone's blood...oy! > > "i do love german...i came up with nothing....wiki tho has epicaricacy w= hich > if i knew the word i could tell you if it's good or not. most impressive = is > the wiki list of other languages' terms for this:" > * _Arabic_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Arabic_language) : > shamaatah (shamtan, taking pleasure in the misfortune of others) > * _Bulgarian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Bulgarian_language= ) : > ( , evil or harm, , joy) > * _Chinese_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Chinese_language) : = ( , > enjoy; disaster; ; be happy for; misfortune) > * _Czech_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Czech_language) : = =C5=A1 > kodolibost (=C5=A1koda, damage, harm, or loss, libost, pleasure) > * _Danish_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Danish_language) and > _Norwegian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Norwegian_language) : sk= adefryd > (skade, damage, injury or harm, fryd, glee) > * _Dutch_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Dutch_language) : > leedvermaak (leed, suffering or sorrow, and vermaak, entertainment) > * _Esperanto_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Esperanto) : malic= a > ojo (malica, wicked, and ojo, joy) > * _Estonian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Estonian_language) = : > kahjur=C3=B5=C3=B5m (kahju, damage or harm and r=C3=B5=C3=B5m, joy) > * _Finnish_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Finnish_language) : > vahingonilo (vahinko, accident or damage, ilo, joy or happiness) > * _Greek_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Greek_language) : ( = , > joy or delight and , spite or ill will) > * _Hebrew_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Hebrew_language) : ) = : , > joy, , misfortune, based on Proverbs 17:5) (simcha la'ed), also: " " (se= e > _Mishneh Torah_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Mishneh_Torah) , the = laws > of Teshuvah chap. 4:4). > * _Hungarian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Hungarian_language= ) : > k=C3=A1r=C3=B6r=C3=B6m (k=C3=A1r, loss or damage, =C3=B6r=C3=B6m, joy) > * _Lithuanian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Lithuanian_langua= ge) > : piktd iuga (piktas angry, d iaugsmas joy) > * _Macedonian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Macedonian_langua= ge) > : ( , evil or harm, , joy) > * _Russian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Russian_language) : = ( , > evil or harm, , joy) > * _Scots Gaelic_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Scottish_Gaelic_language) : aighear m= illteach (aighear, delight or joy, millteach, malicious > or destructive) > * _Serbian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Serbian_language) a= nd > _Croatian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Croatian_language) : > /zluradost (zlo, evil, radost, joy) > * _Slovak_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Slovak_language) : = =C5=A1 > kodorados (=C5=A1koda, damage, harm, or loss, rados , joy) > * _Slovenian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Slovenian_language= ) : > =C5=A1kodo eljnost (=C5=A1koda, damage, harm, or loss, eleti, to wish) > * _Swedish_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//wiki/Swedish_language) : > skadegl=C3=A4dje (skada, damage, gl=C3=A4dje, joy or happiness) > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.c= om > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:00:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed malicenteredtainment On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Anyone have a one word translation in English? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:20:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <334825.11263.qm@web86003.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know why we seem to be compelled to try to determine whether country or jazz is more musical. And why Cash when Bill Monroe and bluegrass is a much earthier example as are Flatts & Scruggs. And don't forget, country uses the yodel which would be a rough equivalent of scat. But then we have the Tuva throat singers, the Tibetan chants, the throat singing of the Dene and other northern aboriginal groups. What I'm getting at in my roundabout way is that each music has its own aesthetics which are beyond comparison. As is the music in poetry. It doesn't make any sense to say that Elliot is more musical than Williams or Jorie Graham (whom I have just discovered and whose voice - and, yes, musicality - I find incredible). The musicality is, to me, one of the defining factors which makes poetry different than prose. The other dimension we seem to be ignoring is that of the plastic arts. To me, poetry is a fusion of music and painting. If I were to design a Cartesian coordinate system for poetry, I'd have the X axis labelled 'music' and have it stretching from complete assonance to complete dissonance, and have the Y axis labelled 'painting' and have it stretching from complete realism to complete abstract (whatever that might mean) (NB: I would subsume in 'painting' the concept of sculpture as well as it seems to me, particularly with Jorie Graham, that it is more the concept of sculpture (which she comes by honestly through her mother who is a world-renowned sculptress) that has influenced and dictated her work particularly with the long line). Again, to me, it is the fusion aspect that shifts the balance away from prose and towards poetry. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky Sent: November 7, 2007 12:42 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an example of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he gives it in something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier discussion, this is somehow related to my feeling that there is as much torque in poem by Philip Larkin as in one by any given Language poet.) And yet, and yet...as genres, jazz still seems more "musical" to me than country, the reason being somehow tied to the fact that if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do something like scat singing, to push his interpretation into some more abstract area--if he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his producer have yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to follow him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it but can't define it" adhesion is radicality. But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any solo recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early records. Chris Stroffolino wrote: Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove my point. Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt content" as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or persona. Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) from the other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it would be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the beats as much as the words and the voice. And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent melody, as much as rhythm. One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how one is less "musical" than the other. Chris On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > any overt content they might have. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > 'feminine' line endings, > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > poem's 'music.' > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > sweeter," etc). > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > over another kind of music, categorically. > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > punk music" (or vice versa) > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > Chris > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: angela vasquez-giroux >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >> respect... >> >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >> descriptive words >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >> meaningless as >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >> >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >> job. we >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >> >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >> >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > wrote: >>> >>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>> >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>> >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>> plot. >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>> money, the >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>> about >>> meaning that drove >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>> you have >>> found some better >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>> myself.... >>> Anyway, I don't find >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>> stanzas then? >>> Or Faulkner. >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>> fiction at >>> all, but between poetry and >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> >>> >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>> drawn and >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>> with >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>> post >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>> distinctions >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>> about >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>> generative or >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>> lazy >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>> has >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>> and >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>> with >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>> relates to >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>> such >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>> way to >>> draw a line where one is useful. >>> >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>> honestly, my >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>> them >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>> for me, >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>> works also >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>> as if >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>> composed at >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>> as to >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>> species. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>> boundaries >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>> poetry >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>> don't >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>> poetry >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>> management and >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>> served? >>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>> do you >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>> the >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>> enough >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>> attempt >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>> >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>> how I >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>> them. My >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>> where I've >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>> say >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>> seek to >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>> >>>> advantage. >>>> >>>>> Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: 06/11/2007 8:05 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: 06/11/2007 8:05 PM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:46:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree. I don't think insulting Pierre is going to change anyone's mind about Bly or the origins of Deep Image. Besides who would be envious of a "self-indulgent shit" who writes about egotistical sublimity. > One needn't resort to dismissal or ad homina, Barry. It's entirely > possible that someone who disagrees with you has no dark motives to > conceal. > > It must have been in 1970 that Bly read to a small crowd of faculty > and graduate students at Barnard College in New York. Most of the > undergraduates were probably too invested in political ferment at the > time, in the second year of almost non-stop rioting, to attend. After > he lectured all of us about marriage for a half hour, apparently > thinking we were 18 years old (I looked around the room and counted > 1.5 marriages per attendee, most of whom I knew) he read us a poem > that was apparently his set piece of those years about finding a > dying sea lion behind a dune after the Santa Barbara oil spill. In > the poem he goes back every day, recording the animal's increasing > agony, until it died on the seventh day, when the sky opened and Bly > had a Wordsworthian epiphany. It was apparently a big hit with most > crowds. Me, I was furious. What a self-indulgent shit. A call to the > ASPCA would have resulted in a quicker, kinder death. But without the > epiphany. The people I spoke to felt the same. > > This was years before the utter disgrace of his Iron John phase. But > he was already willing to make use of anything for his ends. > > Not everyone who wears a cape is a superhero. > > By the way, he's a very bad translator. > > But maybe I'm just jealous. > > Mark > > At 11:22 AM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >>Envy rears its ugly green head. >> >>Pierre Joris wrote: On Nov 5, 2007, at 6:34 >>AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> >> > I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for >> > accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute >> > motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to >> > say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" >> > without having to say they developed this just because they knew >> > that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton >> > Anthology? >> >>infuriating to you, maybe, but accurate >> >>Pierre >>___________________________________________________________ >> >>The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >>___________________________________________________________ >>Pierre Joris >>244 Elm Street >>Albany NY 12202 >>h: 518 426 0433 >>c: 518 225 7123 >>o: 518 442 40 71 >>Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >>email: joris@albany.edu >>http://pierrejoris.com >>Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >>____________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:11:45 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Apologies if I misunderstood you, Elizabeth. Still, I have some empathy for Wystan's idea that all writing has power (and if it doesn't, what are we doing?) I guess it all depends on what you mean by power. - Btw, Wystan, I _like_ putting poetry where it doesn't belong. I've found that as soon as you do, it starts belonging. I'm not sure that the "expected audience" definition really holds water, though of course it's indisputable that the literary market is dominated by prose. But a lot of the prose I find most interesting won't sell much more than poetry might. Print runs of 1000 or so are more common than not. I read somewhere that a best-selling literary novel in the UK means around 10,000 copies, which isn't exactly huge. It's only at one end that prose is dominant, and that's generally a certain kind of prose - story-driven, character-based, often generic (I don't mean those as pejorative terms, btw, like all conventions it's all about what you do with them). Jason, your MMUs make me think rather mischievously of Humpty Dumpty's story in Alice in Wonderland - "Once there was a boater". Or Baldrick's novel in Blackadder - "Once were there was a lovely little sausage named Baldrick". Perhaps they're poems? All best A -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:23:19 -0600 Reply-To: junction@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Schadenfreude Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a pleasure that one wouldn't admit to, as in joy caused by someone els= e's misfortune. A guilty pleasure, except that that phrase mostly applies t= o bingeing on chocolate these days. Gloating is too outwards, but it's the = right idea--the emotion behinf\d gloating is one kind of schadenfreude. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: mIEKAL aND >Sent: Nov 7, 2007 11:28 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Schadenfreude > >Mark=E2=80=94I like and agree with what you say here but I'm setting this = up =20 >as a constraint to begin with. I'm curious how Pierre would approach =20 >this? With his Celan translations he peppers his version with really =20 >interesting & readable neologisms. I vastly prefer his approach to =20 >the other Celan translations I've sampled. > >But on the otherhand why doesn't "gloat" work? > >~mIEKAL the monoglot > > >On Nov 7, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Hal's got it pretty close. German makes words by yoking two words =20 >> together without a space in between. There's no way that English =20 >> can replicate this, and no reason it should. How about a one-word =20 >> translation of gesamtkunstwerk or weltschmerz? Fortunately we get =20 >> to borrow. And fortunately translation isn't a word-for-word business. >> >> Mark >> >> At 11:07 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >>> How about maliciousglee? >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have a one word translation in English? >> > >He that uses many words for explaining any subject, doth, like the >cuttlefish, hide himself for the most part in his own ink. >=09=09=09=09=09-John Ray, naturalist (1627-1705) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:47:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: WGA Strike In-Reply-To: <45563E04-F3C4-478D-978D-656F2D849AF3@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I wanted to forward this to the list, but have made the backchanneller anon. at her request. On Nov 7, 2007 2:18 PM, [ ] wrote: > Hi Catherine--- > thank you for your take on this (I'm backchanneling because I used my > allotment today) > Knowing people in the industry, you have a different take... > I like to think I'm pro-union, and want some solidarity with other > writers, etc. > > Yet, I have so many playwright friends who tried to get into TV (once the > NEA cuts crippled playwrighting) > who might now have an opportunity... > My husband was a playwright. He had to find work, of course. Not that he doesn't still write experimental plays and fiction. Not that he loves the movies he's been able to see through the process. But hey, Suzan Lori-Parks: Girl 6. Need I say more? He got a job leveraging his knowledge of form and dialog and character development that will last until he allows his grey hair to show. His union covers health insurance, which we need. Part of what he had to do was 1) move from New York where his then-partner -- me -- had a six figure career, 2) spend his life savings, 3) take a "class" at a studio. The studio charged him money for this "class" (even though he has two advanced degrees, productions, etc.) so that they could hire him below scale after the class. But something else is going on with the webisodes: our government, in its infinite wisdom, gave certain rights to creative material "created for" to the studios, as though they were, say, marketing brochures, rather than, say, characters. So then, there's this erosion of rights to writing. This is essentially like the word processing job (another field that I think should be unionised) I had once; even though I had degrees, five years of wp, etc. behind me, I had to work for free for two weeks as "training." It chansed off my other part time jobs, and made me dependent on a single one. So I guess, if your friends want to break into a business that, on average, doesn't pay a living wage, takes the rights to your work, fires you when you're 50, and -- without a union -- doesn't give you health insurance, pension, or other benefits... > I think about how the "musicians strike" of the 40s had the effect > (unwittingly) of leading to both the birth of be-bop as well as of early > rock and roll. > Our current house was owned from 1941 until about 1989 by a family headed by a former musician and orchestra manager -- I think he was associated with Tito Puente and many others. I think the story is that he would not let the orchestra have uncompensated practice outside of union-controlled locations & time-frames -- during that strike. Anyways, he was never a musician or orchestra manager again, and sold golf equipment for the rest of his life. Before that it was owned by the head of the west coast for Western Electric. During WWII he was promoted from movies to... defense contracting.... > Not so much a fan of much of the writing that is done for hollywood > product today, there's a side to me that hopes that maybe this strike > could lead to the industry taking a little more chances in terms of > content. > They have just fired the production staffs. Those will no longer be salaried positions. If the last strike gave us reality tv, because it is largely unacted and unwritten, how can studio motivation this time be toward more risk? Part of the strike is to try to help break the monopoly six conglomerates have over creative content. Monopoly = no risk. Companies tend toward monopoly. > That probably won't happen when media conglomerates are owned by defense > contractors. > Universal = NBC = GE. What does general electric make? GE requires Universal to interview 6 off-shore engineers for each open engineering position. Even when the position requires native-speaker English language skills. I know; I wrote about their proprietary residuals system the last time I worked for them (no one was on strike). As a consultant. The engineers who didn't need English skills were brought onto the lot in on a bus everyday from the corporate dorm they were housed in. > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:52:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: "musical" plus Helen Adam as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Stroffolino's points her here on poetries, vocals and musics makes me want to reference last week's great SF State Poetry Center's celebration (at the Unitarian Church) for A HELEN ADAM READER, Edited with Notes and an Introduction by Kristin Prevallet (National Poetry Foundation - includes a CD of Adam performing). 491 pages, $29.95 - a steal!. Adam's work, solely ballads, is by definition 'musical' - and can only be interpreted and performed as such. But what a wild 'noir' filled night of primarily poet performers variously taking/flying off on the works in ways that I even suspect Helen at her most demonic extreme would have tilted her head in astonishment. Performances included Chris singing and beating the tarnation out of the church piano (when is some institution going to hire this guy and take advantage of the span of knowledge and passion for music and poesie from Lizziebethan to hip-hop-punk and blues??), the fiddle of Pat Reed, David Buuk with another blazing piano and voice on 'San Francisco's Burning', plus wonderful vocals from Kristin Prevallet and, wonderfully moon drenched voice of Roxie Hamilton (with her pickup band) doing her Appalachian ballad interps of Adam, and then 'straight' readings by Michael McClure and Kevin Killian, who, wistfully, suggested that maybe it was Helen who was Lou Reed and Nico's dark muse back there in the seventie's heroin daze when she became something of a performing presence in NY City. Then there was Warner Jepson, the original composer and performer for the San Francisco six month run of 'San Francisco Burning'. When the play moved to New York - in the early sixties - in what turned out to be a brief run at the Judson Poets Theater (name?), Helen insisted on new compositions and forbid him to ever publicly perform the music again (a little bit of a control freak she!) Warner happily played the music again, and probably would have played all night. Ironically it sounded quite old fashioned Broadway musical. David Buuk's closing performance poured and lit the gas on all of that. (Apologies to some other great performances by other folks that took the stage, too). Quite amazing, it was, to be there. With a good thanks to Kristin Prevallet who managed to organize the whole evening from afar. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently featuring 'Ghost Walks' on Valencia Street Chris Stroffolino wrote: Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove my point. Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt content" as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or persona. Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) from the other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it would be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the beats as much as the words and the voice. And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent melody, as much as rhythm. One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how one is less "musical" than the other. Chris On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > any overt content they might have. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > 'feminine' line endings, > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > poem's 'music.' > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > sweeter," etc). > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > over another kind of music, categorically. > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > punk music" (or vice versa) > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > Chris > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: angela vasquez-giroux >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >> respect... >> >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >> descriptive words >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >> meaningless as >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >> >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >> job. we >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >> >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >> >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > wrote: >>> >>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>> >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>> >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>> plot. >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>> money, the >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>> about >>> meaning that drove >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>> you have >>> found some better >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>> myself.... >>> Anyway, I don't find >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>> stanzas then? >>> Or Faulkner. >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>> fiction at >>> all, but between poetry and >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> >>> >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>> drawn and >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>> with >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>> post >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>> distinctions >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>> about >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>> generative or >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>> lazy >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>> has >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>> and >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>> with >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>> relates to >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>> such >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>> way to >>> draw a line where one is useful. >>> >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>> honestly, my >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>> them >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>> for me, >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>> works also >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>> as if >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>> composed at >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>> as to >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>> species. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>> boundaries >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>> poetry >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>> don't >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>> poetry >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>> management and >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>> served? >>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>> do you >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>> the >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>> enough >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>> attempt >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>> >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>> how I >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>> them. My >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>> where I've >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>> say >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>> seek to >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>> >>>> advantage. >>>> >>>>> Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:00:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: BERKSON & RUPPERSBERG AT BEYOND BAROQUE In-Reply-To: <950d10070711021433t765fc747k7ace70a34b0536dd@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Beyond Baroque Literary / Arts Center 681 Venice Blvd, Venice, CA 90291 (310)822-3006 =20 www.beyondbaroque.com 30 November, Friday - 7:30 PM BILL BERKSON and ALLEN RUPPERSBERG BILL BERKSON is a poet, critic, teacher, editor, curator, and author of sixteen books and pamphlets of poetry. His works include Serenade, Fugue State , Hymns of St. Bridget & Other Writings (collaborations with Frank O'Hara), Parts of the Body: a 1970s/80s Scrapbook (Fell Swoop #78), Same Here, an online chapbook (Big Bridge), Young Manhattan (with Anne Waldman, Erudite Fangs), Blue Is the Hero, and Gloria (with Alex Katz). His criticism includes The Sweet Singer of Modernism & Other Art Writings 1985-2003 (Qua) and Sudden Address: Selected Lectures 1981-2006 (Cuneiform). Another recent appearance is the epistolary collaboration with Bernadette Mayer, What's Your Idea of a Good Time?: Interviews & Letters 1977-1985 (Tuumba). His book of new poems is Our Friends Will Pass Among You Silently (Owl). He has contributed to magazines including Artforum, Artnews, and Modern Painters. From 1971 to 1978 he edited published magazines and books under the Big Sky imprint. He is professor of Liberal Arts at the San Francisco Art Institute. ALLEN RUPPERSBERG presents a book-give-away performance of his THE NEW FIVE FOOT SHELF paperback book. The book is only to be given away by the artist and never sold. This performance has never been done in the US. Ruppersberg will read from the book by way of explanation of the project. 20 books - out of an edition of 1000 - will be given out. Ruppersberg's art has been exhibited worldwide in galleries and museums including Margo Leavin Gallery (LA), Kunsthalle N=FCrnberg (Nuremberg), National Museum of Contemporary Art (Bucharest), MOCA (LA), and the UCLA Hammer Museum. A retrospective of his work toured European museums and kunsthalles over the past two year, an= d a new project together with related older works will appear at the Santa Monica Museum of Art in 2009. 2 December, Sunday - 4 - 6 PM HANDS ON, ONCE AGAIN: A Seminar with BILL BERKSON BILL BERKSON, seminal poet, critic, publisher, and collaborator with artists and other poets (including Frank O'Hara, Alex Katz, Bernadette Mayer, Anne Waldman & others) will lead a seminar on the nature and possibilities of collaboration. "All art is collaboration. You collaborate with your culture, your language, your reading=8Athe past, the art - poetry, paintings, dance, whatever - that you admire=8Awith your peers=8Ayou collaborate with that shifting phantasmagoria." - Bill Berkson, from Working with Joe. Seminar price: $50 BEYOND BAROQUE IS SUPPORTED IN PART BY: The City of Los Angeles Department of Public Affairs LA County Arts Commission Lawrence Lipton Trust The Murray and Grace Nissman Foundation The Dibble Foundation ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:47:59 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Komninos Zervos Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <903068.53673.qm@web86002.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" what about poetry that works against 'musicality' and phonographic techniques of rhyme, metre, etc? surely not all poetry can be described as musical, ie concrete poetry, some sound poetry, some digital poetries, etc? komninos -- komninos zervos http://komninos.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:49:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: <2623232.1194481400151.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Picking up on Hal's translation, how 'bout that mix of malicious fraud, greed and glee as say after - in that eye ball to eye ball moment - when Cheney and Bush give each other a quick kiss goodnight. Now that's cold. That's 'schadenfreude.' Stephen V Mark Weiss wrote:It's a pleasure that one wouldn't admit to, as in joy caused by someone else's misfortune. A guilty pleasure, except that that phrase mostly applies to bingeing on chocolate these days. Gloating is too outwards, but it's the right idea--the emotion behinf\d gloating is one kind of schadenfreude. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: mIEKAL aND >Sent: Nov 7, 2007 11:28 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Schadenfreude > >Mark—I like and agree with what you say here but I'm setting this up >as a constraint to begin with. I'm curious how Pierre would approach >this? With his Celan translations he peppers his version with really >interesting & readable neologisms. I vastly prefer his approach to >the other Celan translations I've sampled. > >But on the otherhand why doesn't "gloat" work? > >~mIEKAL the monoglot > > >On Nov 7, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Hal's got it pretty close. German makes words by yoking two words >> together without a space in between. There's no way that English >> can replicate this, and no reason it should. How about a one-word >> translation of gesamtkunstwerk or weltschmerz? Fortunately we get >> to borrow. And fortunately translation isn't a word-for-word business. >> >> Mark >> >> At 11:07 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >>> How about maliciousglee? >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have a one word translation in English? >> > >He that uses many words for explaining any subject, doth, like the >cuttlefish, hide himself for the most part in his own ink. > -John Ray, naturalist (1627-1705) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 22:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Schadenfreude Comments: To: junction@earthlink.net Comments: cc: Daniel Zimmerman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Cryptogloat? As in: At the failure of my rival's premiere, my stifled cryptogloat coagulated as a sweet, insoluble mucus on my epiglottis. ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 7:23 PM Subject: Re: Schadenfreude It's a pleasure that one wouldn't admit to, as in joy caused by someone else's misfortune. A guilty pleasure, except that that phrase mostly applies to bingeing on chocolate these days. Gloating is too outwards, but it's the right idea--the emotion behinf\d gloating is one kind of schadenfreude. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: mIEKAL aND >Sent: Nov 7, 2007 11:28 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Schadenfreude > >Mark—I like and agree with what you say here but I'm setting this up >as a constraint to begin with. I'm curious how Pierre would approach >this? With his Celan translations he peppers his version with really >interesting & readable neologisms. I vastly prefer his approach to >the other Celan translations I've sampled. > >But on the otherhand why doesn't "gloat" work? > >~mIEKAL the monoglot > > >On Nov 7, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Hal's got it pretty close. German makes words by yoking two words >> together without a space in between. There's no way that English >> can replicate this, and no reason it should. How about a one-word >> translation of gesamtkunstwerk or weltschmerz? Fortunately we get >> to borrow. And fortunately translation isn't a word-for-word business. >> >> Mark >> >> At 11:07 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >>> How about maliciousglee? >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have a one word translation in English? >> > >He that uses many words for explaining any subject, doth, like the >cuttlefish, hide himself for the most part in his own ink. > -John Ray, naturalist (1627-1705) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:12:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: VALUE UNMAPPED by Robert Mittenthal MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Nomados Literary Publishers is pleased to announce VALUE UNMAPPED by = Robert Mittenthal. ISBN 978-0-9781072-7-7 39pp. $10.00, post and packing extra (at cost) =20 =20 In poetry, like all arts, we are continually redefining our values, our notions of craft, technique, prosody. We search to locate the bridges = that can transport us from the recognizable to the unknown. Enter Robert Mittenthal's new work Value Unmapped. In these compellingly beautiful = poems, shards of text shimmer on the surface of what's well-made and what's = made unattainable, unmapped: "Half a person please/A freeze frame from the temporary." These poems remind us that the political is mapped onto the formal. These poems are written for the future. Robert Fitterman =20 In Value Unmapped sublime laments paradoxically remind us to both = scrutinize and celebrate the blessed predicament of modernity. Mittenthal sharply reveals how "Beauty is to touch the broken with all sensation." This = clever, comic, urgent work should be read often and kept within arm's reach for stirring commentary as we enter and navigate "futures or false dystopias = of pure connection." Laynie Browne =20 =20 ORDER FROM=20 Nomados, POBox 4031, 349 West Georgia Street, Vancouver B.C. Canada V6B = 3Z4 or from NomadosNomados@Yahoo.com or from Peter Quartermain 604 255 8274=20 =20 We prefer to ship direct to purchaser with pro forma invoice; that we = can ACCURATELY assess shipping etc. costs and not overcharge you. U. S. or Canadian cheques acceptable - please add $3.00 postage/packing if you = wish to pay in advance.=20 =20 We prefer payment in Canadian but for a limited period will accept U.S. funds at par (cheque or money order. Do not send currency). =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver BC Canada V6A 1Y7 604 255 8274 (voice and fax) quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 22:43:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > What you both have to say accords at one level what goes on in my > own writing life. But writing for oneself, for one's own > understanding alone, is the fall back position, the limit case. I > don't think any of us would bother if we didn't think we might > extend the size of our expected audience, which is to say poetry > IS what you write when you think you might be understood.Wystan When you write/draw/program/paint/perform/whatever a poem that people respond well to, sometimes it's because it has somehow engaged them creatively; there may indeed be material to understand in the poem, and that may be part of the other person's interest in it, but who on earth reads poetry simply to understand what the poet is saying? I think many read it to be engaged creatively in what they can make of it. Poetry is always already interactive. Is it a jig-saw or can it be put together more ways than one? Jig-saws are prose. Poetry is a much more interesting construction. One that doesn't simply seek to be 'understood' but to engage the reader creatively, let them bring their whole wealth of knowledge and experience to an active construction of meaning, meaning which may ultimately be of their own making. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 06:48:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <00ab01c82194$c639c3d0$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, of course, but it only becomes interesting to compare things when they are beyond comparison. Comparing comparables is a trivial activity. As an outsider to both, I take bluegrass and country to be different categories. John Cunningham wrote: I don't know why we seem to be compelled to try to determine whether country or jazz is more musical. And why Cash when Bill Monroe and bluegrass is a much earthier example as are Flatts & Scruggs. And don't forget, country uses the yodel which would be a rough equivalent of scat. But then we have the Tuva throat singers, the Tibetan chants, the throat singing of the Dene and other northern aboriginal groups. What I'm getting at in my roundabout way is that each music has its own aesthetics which are beyond comparison. As is the music in poetry. It doesn't make any sense to say that Elliot is more musical than Williams or Jorie Graham (whom I have just discovered and whose voice - and, yes, musicality - I find incredible). The musicality is, to me, one of the defining factors which makes poetry different than prose. The other dimension we seem to be ignoring is that of the plastic arts. To me, poetry is a fusion of music and painting. If I were to design a Cartesian coordinate system for poetry, I'd have the X axis labelled 'music' and have it stretching from complete assonance to complete dissonance, and have the Y axis labelled 'painting' and have it stretching from complete realism to complete abstract (whatever that might mean) (NB: I would subsume in 'painting' the concept of sculpture as well as it seems to me, particularly with Jorie Graham, that it is more the concept of sculpture (which she comes by honestly through her mother who is a world-renowned sculptress) that has influenced and dictated her work particularly with the long line). Again, to me, it is the fusion aspect that shifts the balance away from prose and towards poetry. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky Sent: November 7, 2007 12:42 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an example of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he gives it in something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier discussion, this is somehow related to my feeling that there is as much torque in poem by Philip Larkin as in one by any given Language poet.) And yet, and yet...as genres, jazz still seems more "musical" to me than country, the reason being somehow tied to the fact that if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do something like scat singing, to push his interpretation into some more abstract area--if he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his producer have yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to follow him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it but can't define it" adhesion is radicality. But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any solo recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early records. Chris Stroffolino wrote: Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove my point. Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt content" as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or persona. Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) from the other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it would be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the beats as much as the words and the voice. And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent melody, as much as rhythm. One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how one is less "musical" than the other. Chris On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > any overt content they might have. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > 'feminine' line endings, > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > poem's 'music.' > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > sweeter," etc). > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > over another kind of music, categorically. > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > punk music" (or vice versa) > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > Chris > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: angela vasquez-giroux >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >> respect... >> >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >> descriptive words >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >> meaningless as >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >> >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >> job. we >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >> >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >> >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > wrote: >>> >>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>> >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>> >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>> plot. >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>> money, the >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>> about >>> meaning that drove >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>> you have >>> found some better >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>> myself.... >>> Anyway, I don't find >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>> stanzas then? >>> Or Faulkner. >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>> fiction at >>> all, but between poetry and >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> >>> >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>> drawn and >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>> with >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>> post >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>> distinctions >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>> about >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>> generative or >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>> lazy >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>> has >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>> and >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>> with >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>> relates to >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>> such >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>> way to >>> draw a line where one is useful. >>> >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>> honestly, my >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>> them >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>> for me, >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>> works also >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>> as if >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>> composed at >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>> as to >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>> species. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>> boundaries >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>> poetry >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>> don't >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>> poetry >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>> management and >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>> served? >>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>> do you >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>> the >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>> enough >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>> attempt >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>> >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>> how I >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>> them. My >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>> where I've >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>> say >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>> seek to >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>> >>>> advantage. >>>> >>>>> Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: 06/11/2007 8:05 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: 06/11/2007 8:05 PM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 06:58:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: <62466.72.224.61.9.1194479177.squirrel@webmail.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I never insulted anyone. And if you red what I wrote, you will not find that I say anything to support Bly. I don't support him; I don't even read him. Nor do I care enough about the notion of Deep Image to want to change anyone's mind about it (other than making sure that people don't mix Ammons up with it). I am interested in changing people's minds about the best ways to articulate one's opposition to the poetry one doesn't like. Exposing one's mere resentment like that is a weak and dsiappointing way of doing it--all the more so when one really could be arguing against one's opponent on principle. I hold Pierre's contribution to our letters to be of considerable importance--not something I would have said of Bly, despite the fact that his magazine was significant in its day for keeping US poetry open to foreign influennes. Adam Morey wrote: I agree. I don't think insulting Pierre is going to change anyone's mind about Bly or the origins of Deep Image. Besides who would be envious of a "self-indulgent shit" who writes about egotistical sublimity. > One needn't resort to dismissal or ad homina, Barry. It's entirely > possible that someone who disagrees with you has no dark motives to > conceal. > > It must have been in 1970 that Bly read to a small crowd of faculty > and graduate students at Barnard College in New York. Most of the > undergraduates were probably too invested in political ferment at the > time, in the second year of almost non-stop rioting, to attend. After > he lectured all of us about marriage for a half hour, apparently > thinking we were 18 years old (I looked around the room and counted > 1.5 marriages per attendee, most of whom I knew) he read us a poem > that was apparently his set piece of those years about finding a > dying sea lion behind a dune after the Santa Barbara oil spill. In > the poem he goes back every day, recording the animal's increasing > agony, until it died on the seventh day, when the sky opened and Bly > had a Wordsworthian epiphany. It was apparently a big hit with most > crowds. Me, I was furious. What a self-indulgent shit. A call to the > ASPCA would have resulted in a quicker, kinder death. But without the > epiphany. The people I spoke to felt the same. > > This was years before the utter disgrace of his Iron John phase. But > he was already willing to make use of anything for his ends. > > Not everyone who wears a cape is a superhero. > > By the way, he's a very bad translator. > > But maybe I'm just jealous. > > Mark > > At 11:22 AM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >>Envy rears its ugly green head. >> >>Pierre Joris wrote: On Nov 5, 2007, at 6:34 >>AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> >> > I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for >> > accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute >> > motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to >> > say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" >> > without having to say they developed this just because they knew >> > that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton >> > Anthology? >> >>infuriating to you, maybe, but accurate >> >>Pierre >>___________________________________________________________ >> >>The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >>___________________________________________________________ >>Pierre Joris >>244 Elm Street >>Albany NY 12202 >>h: 518 426 0433 >>c: 518 225 7123 >>o: 518 442 40 71 >>Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >>email: joris@albany.edu >>http://pierrejoris.com >>Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >>____________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:28:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All poetrt coverges in music: rhythm, melody, patterns, units of all kinds, not unlike Cecil Taylor's units, etc. Gerald S. >I don't know why we seem to be compelled to try to determine whether >country > or jazz is more musical. And why Cash when Bill Monroe and bluegrass is a > much earthier example as are Flatts & Scruggs. And don't forget, country > uses the yodel which would be a rough equivalent of scat. But then we have > the Tuva throat singers, the Tibetan chants, the throat singing of the > Dene > and other northern aboriginal groups. What I'm getting at in my roundabout > way is that each music has its own aesthetics which are beyond comparison. > As is the music in poetry. It doesn't make any sense to say that Elliot is > more musical than Williams or Jorie Graham (whom I have just discovered > and > whose voice - and, yes, musicality - I find incredible). The musicality > is, > to me, one of the defining factors which makes poetry different than > prose. > The other dimension we seem to be ignoring is that of the plastic arts. To > me, poetry is a fusion of music and painting. If I were to design a > Cartesian coordinate system for poetry, I'd have the X axis labelled > 'music' > and have it stretching from complete assonance to complete dissonance, and > have the Y axis labelled 'painting' and have it stretching from complete > realism to complete abstract (whatever that might mean) (NB: I would > subsume > in 'painting' the concept of sculpture as well as it seems to me, > particularly with Jorie Graham, that it is more the concept of sculpture > (which she comes by honestly through her mother who is a world-renowned > sculptress) that has influenced and dictated her work particularly with > the > long line). Again, to me, it is the fusion aspect that shifts the balance > away from prose and towards poetry. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky > Sent: November 7, 2007 12:42 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry > > In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an > example > of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he gives it in > something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier discussion, this is > somehow related to my feeling that there is as much torque in poem by > Philip > Larkin as in one by any given Language poet.) And yet, and yet...as > genres, > jazz still seems more "musical" to me than country, the reason being > somehow > tied to the fact that if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do > something like scat singing, to push his interpretation into some more > abstract area--if he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his > producer have yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to > follow him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre > on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? > > Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it but can't > define it" adhesion is radicality. > > But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any solo > recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early records. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove > my point. > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt > content" > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > persona. > > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) > from the > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it > would > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the > beats as much as the words and the voice. > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent > melody, as much as rhythm. > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how > one is less "musical" than the other. > > Chris > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >> I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased >> way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" >> than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country >> and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or >> persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in >> that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other >> forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to >> have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you >> think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to >> accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical >> content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from >> any overt content they might have. >> >> Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there >> can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific >> ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... >> >> assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and >> 'feminine' line endings, >> rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or >> poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the >> page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so >> that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as >> much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the >> poem's 'music.' >> So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an >> analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or >> with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind >> using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or >> connotational) aspects of any piece of writing >> (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even >> but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are >> sweeter," etc). >> >> But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and >> often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. >> When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. >> Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and >> meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however >> abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. >> Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in >> terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word >> 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of >> "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). >> And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, >> that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems >> more musical because it seems more meaningful. >> >> Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the >> term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. >> It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" >> over another kind of music, categorically. >> It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over >> punk music" (or vice versa) >> It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is >> music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- >> Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term >> "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. >> I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or >> Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or >> Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, >> but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are >> thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), >> and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's >> definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... >> >> Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough >> (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) >> Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: >> >>> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >>> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >>> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >>> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: angela vasquez-giroux >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >>> respect... >>> >>> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >>> descriptive words >>> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >>> meaningless as >>> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >>> >>> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >>> job. we >>> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >>> >>> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >>> >>> On 11/6/07, steve russell >> wrote: >>>> >>>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>>> >>>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>>> >>>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>>> plot. >>>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>>> >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>>> money, the >>>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>>> about >>>> meaning that drove >>>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>>> you have >>>> found some better >>>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>>> myself.... >>>> Anyway, I don't find >>>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>>> stanzas then? >>>> Or Faulkner. >>>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>>> fiction at >>>> all, but between poetry and >>>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>>> drawn and >>>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>>> with >>>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>>> post >>>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>>> distinctions >>>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>>> about >>>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>>> generative or >>>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>>> lazy >>>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>>> has >>>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>>> and >>>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>>> with >>>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>>> relates to >>>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>>> such >>>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>>> way to >>>> draw a line where one is useful. >>>> >>>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>>> honestly, my >>>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>>> them >>>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>>> for me, >>>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>>> works also >>>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>>> as if >>>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>>> composed at >>>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>>> as to >>>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>>> species. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>>> boundaries >>>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>>> poetry >>>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>>> don't >>>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>>> poetry >>>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>>> management and >>>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>>> served? >>>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>>> >>>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>>> do you >>>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>>> the >>>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>>> enough >>>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>>> attempt >>>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>>> >>>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>>> how I >>>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>>> them. My >>>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>>> where I've >>>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>>> say >>>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>>> seek to >>>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>>> >>>>> advantage. >>>>> >>>>>> Wystan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________ >>>> Do You Yahoo!? >>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>>> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > 06/11/2007 > 8:05 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > 06/11/2007 > 8:05 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Language for a New Century available for Pre-Order! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Contemporary Poetry from Asia, the Middle East and Beyond, featuring = over 400 poets from 55 countries writing in 40 different languages:=20 http://www.amazon.com/Language-New-Century-Contemporary-Poetry/dp/0393332= 381/ref=3Dsr_1_6/002-1602521-6015206?ie=3DUTF8&s=3Dbooks&qid=3D1194504992= &sr=3D8-6 "This extraordinary, library-in-one-volume: what a resource! Those to = whom poetry is essential as the supreme use of language will find the = work of many poets they have never before come to, and those readers who = have limited themselves to prose have the opportunity to discover how = the poet outreaches everything prose can illuminate in who and what we = are, no matter where, on the map. Nine thematic groupings of the work = bring us wonderfully, almost perilously close to ultimate experience in = childhood, love, war, exile, the inextricable relations between politics = and the personal, the tragic and the ironic, the wisdom in sorrow and = humor, that only the most intense imagination can plumb. That of the = poet. The realm of imagination is one. This anthology gives entry to its = vast expression in the Middle East and Asia, including the changing = sensibilities of poets in the ever-growing world of immigration. = Assembled here not the Tower of Babel, but the astonishment and subtlety = inherent in many languages and their experimental modes to expand the = power of words. The introductions to each section offer perceptions = engagingly, against which to place one's own readings. The editors have = boldly envisaged and compiled a beautiful achievement for world = literature." =20 -Nadine Gordimer, Nobel Laureate=20 ***************=20 Ravi Shankar=20 Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 Poet-in-Residence=20 Associate Professor=20 CCSU - English Dept.=20 860-832-2766=20 shankarr@ccsu.edu=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:12:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: richard owens Subject: Deep Image - primary docs In-Reply-To: <22309.58408.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit for anyone seriously interested in investigating Deep Image, Ben Bedard was generous enough to send the following info to me a few weeks back on the foundational statements re Deep Image: "The first mentions of Deep Image occur in J.Rothenberg's little mag (literally), Poems from the Floating Earth--look especially at Volume 3, whose title is: Deep Image: Ancient and Modern. Somewhere in this series, JR has an essay entitled "the Deep Image is the Threatened Image". Once you're done with that, turn to Trobar, issue 2, for Robert Kelly's essay, "Notes on the Deep Image." Later in the Trobar series, where I'm not sure, J. Rothenberg has another essay, "Why Deep Image?". These are the testaments to Deep Image that I'm aware of. Also, be sure to check out R. Kelly's poem "Sun of the Center" in Trobar 2 for the Deep Image in praxis." Mike Basinski also pointed out a feature on Deep Image in issue of George Dowden's mimeo mag Eleventh Finger. rich... ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:17:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Deep Image (again) In-Reply-To: <22309.58408.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We all know that Lit is a parasitical endeavor. Still, I read Rothenburg's "Technicians of the Sacred" some years back, and have recently reopened it. He seems to have at least as strong a sense of world Lit as Bly, and he's less facile ( he isn't facile.). Bly seems to deliver Epiphanies that seem somewhat deep upon first blush, but don't hold when given a reasonable amount of scrutiny. Merwin, as far as I know, didn't get involved in any of this. He began as a rather conventional formalist, but soon developed a surreal signature style. He's done his homework. He's a prolific translator. His "The Folding Cliffs" is a genuine epic. His prose/poems have recently been collected. Whether one cares for his work or not, I don't see how anyone would fail to see that the guy is a major poet. & apart from all of that, he's worked outside the university. I defend Merwin. Send Bly to the guillotine. Barry Schwabsky wrote: I never insulted anyone. And if you red what I wrote, you will not find that I say anything to support Bly. I don't support him; I don't even read him. Nor do I care enough about the notion of Deep Image to want to change anyone's mind about it (other than making sure that people don't mix Ammons up with it). I am interested in changing people's minds about the best ways to articulate one's opposition to the poetry one doesn't like. Exposing one's mere resentment like that is a weak and dsiappointing way of doing it--all the more so when one really could be arguing against one's opponent on principle. I hold Pierre's contribution to our letters to be of considerable importance--not something I would have said of Bly, despite the fact that his magazine was significant in its day for keeping US poetry open to foreign influennes. Adam Morey wrote: I agree. I don't think insulting Pierre is going to change anyone's mind about Bly or the origins of Deep Image. Besides who would be envious of a "self-indulgent shit" who writes about egotistical sublimity. > One needn't resort to dismissal or ad homina, Barry. It's entirely > possible that someone who disagrees with you has no dark motives to > conceal. > > It must have been in 1970 that Bly read to a small crowd of faculty > and graduate students at Barnard College in New York. Most of the > undergraduates were probably too invested in political ferment at the > time, in the second year of almost non-stop rioting, to attend. After > he lectured all of us about marriage for a half hour, apparently > thinking we were 18 years old (I looked around the room and counted > 1.5 marriages per attendee, most of whom I knew) he read us a poem > that was apparently his set piece of those years about finding a > dying sea lion behind a dune after the Santa Barbara oil spill. In > the poem he goes back every day, recording the animal's increasing > agony, until it died on the seventh day, when the sky opened and Bly > had a Wordsworthian epiphany. It was apparently a big hit with most > crowds. Me, I was furious. What a self-indulgent shit. A call to the > ASPCA would have resulted in a quicker, kinder death. But without the > epiphany. The people I spoke to felt the same. > > This was years before the utter disgrace of his Iron John phase. But > he was already willing to make use of anything for his ends. > > Not everyone who wears a cape is a superhero. > > By the way, he's a very bad translator. > > But maybe I'm just jealous. > > Mark > > At 11:22 AM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >>Envy rears its ugly green head. >> >>Pierre Joris wrote: On Nov 5, 2007, at 6:34 >>AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> >> > I find it infuriating that on this list one immediately reaches for >> > accusations of careerism and the like in order to attribute >> > motivations to poets who have divergent ideas. Isn't it enough to >> > say that Bly and co. had an impoverished notion of "deep image" >> > without having to say they developed this just because they knew >> > that such a concept would be the key to getting into the Norton >> > Anthology? >> >>infuriating to you, maybe, but accurate >> >>Pierre >>___________________________________________________________ >> >>The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan >>___________________________________________________________ >>Pierre Joris >>244 Elm Street >>Albany NY 12202 >>h: 518 426 0433 >>c: 518 225 7123 >>o: 518 442 40 71 >>Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >>email: joris@albany.edu >>http://pierrejoris.com >>Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >>____________________________________________________________ > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:37:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <004901c82202$d8c5cda0$63ae4a4a@yourae066c3a9b> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerald and John Thank you for saying what I would have said on the subject. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerald Schwartz Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:28 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry All poetrt coverges in music: rhythm, melody, patterns, units of all kinds, not unlike Cecil Taylor's units, etc. Gerald S. >I don't know why we seem to be compelled to try to determine whether >country > or jazz is more musical. And why Cash when Bill Monroe and bluegrass is a > much earthier example as are Flatts & Scruggs. And don't forget, country > uses the yodel which would be a rough equivalent of scat. But then we have > the Tuva throat singers, the Tibetan chants, the throat singing of the > Dene > and other northern aboriginal groups. What I'm getting at in my roundabout > way is that each music has its own aesthetics which are beyond comparison. > As is the music in poetry. It doesn't make any sense to say that Elliot is > more musical than Williams or Jorie Graham (whom I have just discovered > and > whose voice - and, yes, musicality - I find incredible). The musicality > is, > to me, one of the defining factors which makes poetry different than > prose. > The other dimension we seem to be ignoring is that of the plastic arts. To > me, poetry is a fusion of music and painting. If I were to design a > Cartesian coordinate system for poetry, I'd have the X axis labelled > 'music' > and have it stretching from complete assonance to complete dissonance, and > have the Y axis labelled 'painting' and have it stretching from complete > realism to complete abstract (whatever that might mean) (NB: I would > subsume > in 'painting' the concept of sculpture as well as it seems to me, > particularly with Jorie Graham, that it is more the concept of sculpture > (which she comes by honestly through her mother who is a world-renowned > sculptress) that has influenced and dictated her work particularly with > the > long line). Again, to me, it is the fusion aspect that shifts the balance > away from prose and towards poetry. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky > Sent: November 7, 2007 12:42 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry > > In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an > example > of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he gives it in > something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier discussion, this is > somehow related to my feeling that there is as much torque in poem by > Philip > Larkin as in one by any given Language poet.) And yet, and yet...as > genres, > jazz still seems more "musical" to me than country, the reason being > somehow > tied to the fact that if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do > something like scat singing, to push his interpretation into some more > abstract area--if he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his > producer have yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to > follow him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre > on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? > > Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it but can't > define it" adhesion is radicality. > > But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any solo > recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early records. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove > my point. > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt > content" > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > persona. > > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) > from the > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it > would > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the > beats as much as the words and the voice. > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent > melody, as much as rhythm. > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how > one is less "musical" than the other. > > Chris > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >> I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased >> way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" >> than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country >> and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or >> persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in >> that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other >> forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to >> have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you >> think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to >> accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical >> content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from >> any overt content they might have. >> >> Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there >> can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific >> ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... >> >> assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and >> 'feminine' line endings, >> rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or >> poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the >> page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so >> that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as >> much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the >> poem's 'music.' >> So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an >> analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or >> with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind >> using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or >> connotational) aspects of any piece of writing >> (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even >> but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are >> sweeter," etc). >> >> But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and >> often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. >> When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. >> Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and >> meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however >> abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. >> Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in >> terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word >> 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of >> "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). >> And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, >> that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems >> more musical because it seems more meaningful. >> >> Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the >> term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. >> It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" >> over another kind of music, categorically. >> It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over >> punk music" (or vice versa) >> It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is >> music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- >> Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term >> "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. >> I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or >> Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or >> Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, >> but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are >> thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), >> and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's >> definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... >> >> Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough >> (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) >> Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: >> >>> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >>> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >>> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >>> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: angela vasquez-giroux >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >>> respect... >>> >>> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >>> descriptive words >>> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >>> meaningless as >>> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >>> >>> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >>> job. we >>> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >>> >>> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >>> >>> On 11/6/07, steve russell >> wrote: >>>> >>>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>>> >>>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>>> >>>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>>> plot. >>>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>>> >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>>> money, the >>>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>>> about >>>> meaning that drove >>>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>>> you have >>>> found some better >>>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>>> myself.... >>>> Anyway, I don't find >>>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>>> stanzas then? >>>> Or Faulkner. >>>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>>> fiction at >>>> all, but between poetry and >>>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>>> drawn and >>>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>>> with >>>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>>> post >>>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>>> distinctions >>>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>>> about >>>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>>> generative or >>>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>>> lazy >>>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>>> has >>>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>>> and >>>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>>> with >>>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>>> relates to >>>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>>> such >>>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>>> way to >>>> draw a line where one is useful. >>>> >>>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>>> honestly, my >>>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>>> them >>>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>>> for me, >>>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>>> works also >>>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>>> as if >>>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>>> composed at >>>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>>> as to >>>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>>> species. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>>> boundaries >>>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>>> poetry >>>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>>> don't >>>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>>> poetry >>>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>>> management and >>>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>>> served? >>>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>>> >>>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>>> do you >>>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>>> the >>>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>>> enough >>>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>>> attempt >>>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>>> >>>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>>> how I >>>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>>> them. My >>>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>>> where I've >>>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>>> say >>>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>>> seek to >>>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>>> >>>>> advantage. >>>>> >>>>>> Wystan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________ >>>> Do You Yahoo!? >>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>>> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > 06/11/2007 > 8:05 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > 06/11/2007 > 8:05 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:37:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <903068.53673.qm@web86002.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As for poetry being more "musical" than, say, prose, this makes more than a certain amount of sense. Even, oddly enough when considering prose poetry or poetry which uses prose rhythms in the mix. I think this is borne out by the fact that it is much easier to listen to poetry read out loud, even longish poems and prose poems, than it is to listen to prose fiction read out loud by its authors. Of course, being a poet, I have a prejudice in favor of poetry. But I've noticed over many years how difficult it is to listen to and to perform readings of prose fiction compared to the performance of poetry. This may not directly indicate the "musicality" of poetry in any easily explicable, logical way. But I believe it does so, anyway, since the easiest thing to listen to performed is, of course, music itself. Barry Schwabsky wrote: (Johnny is musical, but the music he sings isn't particularly--does that make any sense?) Chris Stroffolino wrote: Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove my point. Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt content" as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or persona. Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) from the other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it would be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the beats as much as the words and the voice. And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent melody, as much as rhythm. One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how one is less "musical" than the other. Chris On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > any overt content they might have. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > 'feminine' line endings, > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > poem's 'music.' > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > sweeter," etc). > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > over another kind of music, categorically. > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > punk music" (or vice versa) > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > Chris > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: angela vasquez-giroux >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >> respect... >> >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >> descriptive words >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >> meaningless as >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >> >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >> job. we >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >> >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >> >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > wrote: >>> >>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>> >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>> >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>> plot. >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>> money, the >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>> about >>> meaning that drove >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>> you have >>> found some better >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>> myself.... >>> Anyway, I don't find >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>> stanzas then? >>> Or Faulkner. >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>> fiction at >>> all, but between poetry and >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>> >>> >>> >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>> drawn and >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>> with >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>> post >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>> distinctions >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>> about >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>> generative or >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>> lazy >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>> has >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>> and >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>> with >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>> relates to >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>> such >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>> way to >>> draw a line where one is useful. >>> >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>> honestly, my >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>> them >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>> for me, >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>> works also >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>> as if >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>> composed at >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>> as to >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>> species. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>> boundaries >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>> poetry >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>> don't >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>> poetry >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>> management and >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>> served? >>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>> do you >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>> the >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>> enough >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>> attempt >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>> >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>> how I >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>> them. My >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>> where I've >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>> say >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>> >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>> seek to >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>> >>>> advantage. >>>> >>>>> Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:46:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <004901c82202$d8c5cda0$63ae4a4a@yourae066c3a9b> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cecil Taylor/Ornette Coleman are perfect background for Kathy Acker. No one's mentioned Irish folk music. Or maybe they have & i missed it. I wonder if Scottish ballads & tradional music had an influence on Stevenson. I wonder if Seamus Heaney digs Sinnead O Conner, or does he stick to traditional. The Carter family did some beautiful stuff. Will miss Cash. A volume of prison poetry should be dedicated to Johnn;y C. Gerald Schwartz wrote: All poetrt coverges in music: rhythm, melody, patterns, units of all kinds, not unlike Cecil Taylor's units, etc. Gerald S. >I don't know why we seem to be compelled to try to determine whether >country > or jazz is more musical. And why Cash when Bill Monroe and bluegrass is a > much earthier example as are Flatts & Scruggs. And don't forget, country > uses the yodel which would be a rough equivalent of scat. But then we have > the Tuva throat singers, the Tibetan chants, the throat singing of the > Dene > and other northern aboriginal groups. What I'm getting at in my roundabout > way is that each music has its own aesthetics which are beyond comparison. > As is the music in poetry. It doesn't make any sense to say that Elliot is > more musical than Williams or Jorie Graham (whom I have just discovered > and > whose voice - and, yes, musicality - I find incredible). The musicality > is, > to me, one of the defining factors which makes poetry different than > prose. > The other dimension we seem to be ignoring is that of the plastic arts. To > me, poetry is a fusion of music and painting. If I were to design a > Cartesian coordinate system for poetry, I'd have the X axis labelled > 'music' > and have it stretching from complete assonance to complete dissonance, and > have the Y axis labelled 'painting' and have it stretching from complete > realism to complete abstract (whatever that might mean) (NB: I would > subsume > in 'painting' the concept of sculpture as well as it seems to me, > particularly with Jorie Graham, that it is more the concept of sculpture > (which she comes by honestly through her mother who is a world-renowned > sculptress) that has influenced and dictated her work particularly with > the > long line). Again, to me, it is the fusion aspect that shifts the balance > away from prose and towards poetry. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky > Sent: November 7, 2007 12:42 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry > > In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an > example > of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he gives it in > something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier discussion, this is > somehow related to my feeling that there is as much torque in poem by > Philip > Larkin as in one by any given Language poet.) And yet, and yet...as > genres, > jazz still seems more "musical" to me than country, the reason being > somehow > tied to the fact that if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do > something like scat singing, to push his interpretation into some more > abstract area--if he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his > producer have yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to > follow him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre > on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? > > Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it but can't > define it" adhesion is radicality. > > But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any solo > recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early records. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove > my point. > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt > content" > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > persona. > > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) > from the > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it > would > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the > beats as much as the words and the voice. > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent > melody, as much as rhythm. > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how > one is less "musical" than the other. > > Chris > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >> I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased >> way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" >> than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country >> and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or >> persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in >> that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other >> forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to >> have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you >> think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to >> accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical >> content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from >> any overt content they might have. >> >> Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there >> can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific >> ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... >> >> assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and >> 'feminine' line endings, >> rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or >> poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the >> page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so >> that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as >> much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the >> poem's 'music.' >> So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an >> analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or >> with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind >> using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or >> connotational) aspects of any piece of writing >> (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even >> but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are >> sweeter," etc). >> >> But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and >> often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. >> When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. >> Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and >> meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however >> abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. >> Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in >> terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word >> 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of >> "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). >> And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, >> that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems >> more musical because it seems more meaningful. >> >> Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the >> term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. >> It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" >> over another kind of music, categorically. >> It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over >> punk music" (or vice versa) >> It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is >> music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- >> Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term >> "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. >> I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or >> Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or >> Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, >> but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are >> thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), >> and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's >> definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... >> >> Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough >> (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) >> Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: >> >>> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >>> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >>> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >>> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: angela vasquez-giroux >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >>> respect... >>> >>> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >>> descriptive words >>> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >>> meaningless as >>> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >>> >>> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >>> job. we >>> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >>> >>> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >>> >>> On 11/6/07, steve russell >> wrote: >>>> >>>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>>> >>>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>>> >>>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>>> plot. >>>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>>> >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>>> money, the >>>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>>> about >>>> meaning that drove >>>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>>> you have >>>> found some better >>>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>>> myself.... >>>> Anyway, I don't find >>>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>>> stanzas then? >>>> Or Faulkner. >>>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>>> fiction at >>>> all, but between poetry and >>>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>>> drawn and >>>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>>> with >>>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>>> post >>>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>>> distinctions >>>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>>> about >>>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>>> generative or >>>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>>> lazy >>>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>>> has >>>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>>> and >>>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>>> with >>>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>>> relates to >>>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>>> such >>>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>>> way to >>>> draw a line where one is useful. >>>> >>>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>>> honestly, my >>>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>>> them >>>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>>> for me, >>>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>>> works also >>>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>>> as if >>>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>>> composed at >>>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>>> as to >>>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>>> species. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>>> boundaries >>>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>>> poetry >>>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>>> don't >>>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>>> poetry >>>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>>> management and >>>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>>> served? >>>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>>> >>>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>>> do you >>>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>>> the >>>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>>> enough >>>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>>> attempt >>>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>>> >>>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>>> how I >>>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>>> them. My >>>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>>> where I've >>>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>>> say >>>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>>> seek to >>>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>>> >>>>> advantage. >>>>> >>>>>> Wystan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________ >>>> Do You Yahoo!? >>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>>> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > 06/11/2007 > 8:05 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > 06/11/2007 > 8:05 PM > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:01:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cheryl Pallant Subject: Gone With the Wig MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Gone With the Wig" is a participatory performance poetry event with = Cheryl Pallant and Kevin Campbell Burn. The audience is encouraged to = wear a wig for an evening of collaboration and improvisation in words = and levity. Where: Kronos Gallery, 15 Byers St., Staunton VA 24402 ; 540-213-1815 = ( www.artisdangerous.com/) When: Thursday, November 15 Time: 8:00 Cost: $5 Wigs: Any color, length, style best, Cheryl Pallant www.cherylpallant.com "Sometimes you like to let the hair do the talking." - James Brown ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:14:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <975378.96354.qm@web52411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In this discussion I feel there is too much of an identification of music with sound? Though obviously music has a close link with sound, it goes much beyond that. Ciao, Murat On Nov 8, 2007 10:46 AM, steve russell wrote: > Cecil Taylor/Ornette Coleman are perfect background for Kathy Acker. No > one's mentioned Irish folk music. Or maybe they have & i missed it. I > wonder if Scottish ballads & tradional music had an influence on Stevenson. > I wonder if Seamus Heaney digs Sinnead O Conner, or does he stick to > traditional. The Carter family did some beautiful stuff. Will miss Cash. A > volume of prison poetry should be dedicated to Johnn;y C. > > Gerald Schwartz wrote: All poetrt coverges in > music: rhythm, melody, > patterns, units of all kinds, not unlike Cecil > Taylor's units, etc. > > Gerald S. > > >I don't know why we seem to be compelled to try to determine whether > >country > > or jazz is more musical. And why Cash when Bill Monroe and bluegrass is > a > > much earthier example as are Flatts & Scruggs. And don't forget, country > > uses the yodel which would be a rough equivalent of scat. But then we > have > > the Tuva throat singers, the Tibetan chants, the throat singing of the > > Dene > > and other northern aboriginal groups. What I'm getting at in my > roundabout > > way is that each music has its own aesthetics which are beyond > comparison. > > As is the music in poetry. It doesn't make any sense to say that Elliot > is > > more musical than Williams or Jorie Graham (whom I have just discovered > > and > > whose voice - and, yes, musicality - I find incredible). The musicality > > is, > > to me, one of the defining factors which makes poetry different than > > prose. > > The other dimension we seem to be ignoring is that of the plastic arts. > To > > me, poetry is a fusion of music and painting. If I were to design a > > Cartesian coordinate system for poetry, I'd have the X axis labelled > > 'music' > > and have it stretching from complete assonance to complete dissonance, > and > > have the Y axis labelled 'painting' and have it stretching from complete > > realism to complete abstract (whatever that might mean) (NB: I would > > subsume > > in 'painting' the concept of sculpture as well as it seems to me, > > particularly with Jorie Graham, that it is more the concept of sculpture > > (which she comes by honestly through her mother who is a world-renowned > > sculptress) that has influenced and dictated her work particularly with > > the > > long line). Again, to me, it is the fusion aspect that shifts the > balance > > away from prose and towards poetry. > > John Cunningham > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > > Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky > > Sent: November 7, 2007 12:42 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry > > > > In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an > > example > > of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he gives it in > > something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier discussion, this > is > > somehow related to my feeling that there is as much torque in poem by > > Philip > > Larkin as in one by any given Language poet.) And yet, and yet...as > > genres, > > jazz still seems more "musical" to me than country, the reason being > > somehow > > tied to the fact that if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do > > something like scat singing, to push his interpretation into some more > > abstract area--if he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his > > producer have yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how > to > > follow him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this > genre > > on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? > > > > Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it but > can't > > define it" adhesion is radicality. > > > > But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any solo > > recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early records. > > > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove > > my point. > > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play > > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, > > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal > > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt > > content" > > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > > persona. > > > > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) > > from the > > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice > > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it > > would > > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or > > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm > > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the > > beats as much as the words and the voice. > > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent > > melody, as much as rhythm. > > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, > > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how > > one is less "musical" than the other. > > > > Chris > > > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > >> I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > >> way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > >> than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > >> and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > >> persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > >> that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > >> forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > >> have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > >> think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > >> accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > >> content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > >> any overt content they might have. > >> > >> Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > >> can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > >> ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > >> > >> assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > >> 'feminine' line endings, > >> rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > >> poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > >> page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > >> that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > >> much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > >> poem's 'music.' > >> So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > >> analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > >> with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > >> using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > >> connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > >> (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > >> but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > >> sweeter," etc). > >> > >> But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > >> often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > >> When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > >> Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > >> meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > >> abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > >> Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > >> terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > >> 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > >> "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > >> And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > >> that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > >> more musical because it seems more meaningful. > >> > >> Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > >> term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > >> It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > >> over another kind of music, categorically. > >> It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > >> punk music" (or vice versa) > >> It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > >> music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > >> Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > >> "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > >> I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > >> Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > >> Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > >> but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > >> thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > >> and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > >> definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > >> > >> Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > >> (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > >> Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > >> > >> Chris > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > >> > >>> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > >>> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" > >>> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > >>> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>> From: angela vasquez-giroux > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > >>> respect... > >>> > >>> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > >>> descriptive words > >>> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > >>> meaningless as > >>> calling it "interesting" or "organic". > >>> > >>> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the > >>> job. we > >>> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > >>> > >>> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > >>> > >>> On 11/6/07, steve russell > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> i say this with some degree of deference: > >>>> > >>>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > >>>> > >>>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > >>>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, > >>>> plot. > >>>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > >>>> > >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my > >>>> money, the > >>>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > >>>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing > >>>> about > >>>> meaning that drove > >>>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear > >>>> you have > >>>> found some better > >>>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout > >>>> myself.... > >>>> Anyway, I don't find > >>>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about > >>>> stanzas then? > >>>> Or Faulkner. > >>>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > >>>> fiction at > >>>> all, but between poetry and > >>>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > >>>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is > >>>> drawn and > >>>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am > >>>> with > >>>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this > >>>> post > >>>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) > >>>> distinctions > >>>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing > >>>> about > >>>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to > >>>> generative or > >>>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and > >>>> lazy > >>>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > >>>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > >>>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry > >>>> has > >>>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets > >>>> and > >>>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left > >>>> with > >>>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > >>>> relates to > >>>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been > >>>> such > >>>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a > >>>> way to > >>>> draw a line where one is useful. > >>>> > >>>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > >>>> honestly, my > >>>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > >>>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to > >>>> them > >>>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why > >>>> for me, > >>>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > >>>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it > >>>> works also > >>>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > >>>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > >>>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just > >>>> as if > >>>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > >>>> composed at > >>>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > >>>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well > >>>> as to > >>>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different > >>>> species. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > >>>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > >>>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its > >>>>> boundaries > >>>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that > >>>>> poetry > >>>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > >>>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I > >>>>> don't > >>>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS > >>>>> poetry > >>>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > >>>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > >>>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > >>>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time > >>>>> management and > >>>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being > >>>>> served? > >>>>> Cheers, Wystan > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group > >>>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > >>>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>>>> > >>>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" > >>>>> do you > >>>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If > >>>>> the > >>>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that > >>>>> enough > >>>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to > >>>>> attempt > >>>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > >>>>> > >>>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in > >>>>> how I > >>>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read > >>>>> them. My > >>>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point > >>>>> where I've > >>>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > >>>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to > >>>>> say > >>>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > >>>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > >>>>> > >>>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj > >>>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, > >>>>>> seek to > >>>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from > >>>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >>>>>> > >>>>> advantage. > >>>>> > >>>>>> Wystan > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> __________________________________________________ > >>>> Do You Yahoo!? > >>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >>>> http://mail.yahoo.com > >>>> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > > 06/11/2007 > > 8:05 PM > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > > 06/11/2007 > > 8:05 PM > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:24:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <975378.96354.qm@web52411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Gerald is referring more to Taylor's organizational techniques than to the dissonance of Taylor's result. Taylor's work has informed much of my writing, and Taylor himself is a very interesting poet. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of steve russell Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 10:47 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry Cecil Taylor/Ornette Coleman are perfect background for Kathy Acker. No one's mentioned Irish folk music. Or maybe they have & i missed it. I wonder if Scottish ballads & tradional music had an influence on Stevenson. I wonder if Seamus Heaney digs Sinnead O Conner, or does he stick to traditional. The Carter family did some beautiful stuff. Will miss Cash. A volume of prison poetry should be dedicated to Johnn;y C. Gerald Schwartz wrote: All poetrt coverges in music: rhythm, melody, patterns, units of all kinds, not unlike Cecil Taylor's units, etc. Gerald S. >I don't know why we seem to be compelled to try to determine whether >country > or jazz is more musical. And why Cash when Bill Monroe and bluegrass is a > much earthier example as are Flatts & Scruggs. And don't forget, country > uses the yodel which would be a rough equivalent of scat. But then we have > the Tuva throat singers, the Tibetan chants, the throat singing of the > Dene > and other northern aboriginal groups. What I'm getting at in my roundabout > way is that each music has its own aesthetics which are beyond comparison. > As is the music in poetry. It doesn't make any sense to say that Elliot is > more musical than Williams or Jorie Graham (whom I have just discovered > and > whose voice - and, yes, musicality - I find incredible). The musicality > is, > to me, one of the defining factors which makes poetry different than > prose. > The other dimension we seem to be ignoring is that of the plastic arts. To > me, poetry is a fusion of music and painting. If I were to design a > Cartesian coordinate system for poetry, I'd have the X axis labelled > 'music' > and have it stretching from complete assonance to complete dissonance, and > have the Y axis labelled 'painting' and have it stretching from complete > realism to complete abstract (whatever that might mean) (NB: I would > subsume > in 'painting' the concept of sculpture as well as it seems to me, > particularly with Jorie Graham, that it is more the concept of sculpture > (which she comes by honestly through her mother who is a world-renowned > sculptress) that has influenced and dictated her work particularly with > the > long line). Again, to me, it is the fusion aspect that shifts the balance > away from prose and towards poetry. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky > Sent: November 7, 2007 12:42 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry > > In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an > example > of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he gives it in > something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier discussion, this is > somehow related to my feeling that there is as much torque in poem by > Philip > Larkin as in one by any given Language poet.) And yet, and yet...as > genres, > jazz still seems more "musical" to me than country, the reason being > somehow > tied to the fact that if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do > something like scat singing, to push his interpretation into some more > abstract area--if he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his > producer have yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to > follow him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre > on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? > > Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it but can't > define it" adhesion is radicality. > > But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any solo > recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early records. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually prove > my point. > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt > content" > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > persona. > > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) > from the > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it > would > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the > beats as much as the words and the voice. > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent > melody, as much as rhythm. > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how > one is less "musical" than the other. > > Chris > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >> I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased >> way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" >> than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country >> and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or >> persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in >> that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other >> forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to >> have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you >> think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to >> accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical >> content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from >> any overt content they might have. >> >> Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there >> can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific >> ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... >> >> assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and >> 'feminine' line endings, >> rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or >> poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the >> page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so >> that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as >> much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the >> poem's 'music.' >> So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an >> analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or >> with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind >> using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or >> connotational) aspects of any piece of writing >> (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even >> but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are >> sweeter," etc). >> >> But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and >> often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. >> When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. >> Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and >> meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however >> abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. >> Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in >> terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word >> 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of >> "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). >> And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, >> that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems >> more musical because it seems more meaningful. >> >> Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the >> term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. >> It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" >> over another kind of music, categorically. >> It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over >> punk music" (or vice versa) >> It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is >> music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- >> Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term >> "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. >> I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or >> Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or >> Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, >> but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are >> thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), >> and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's >> definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... >> >> Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough >> (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) >> Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: >> >>> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is >>> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" >>> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or >>> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: angela vasquez-giroux >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with >>> respect... >>> >>> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- >>> descriptive words >>> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as >>> meaningless as >>> calling it "interesting" or "organic". >>> >>> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the >>> job. we >>> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. >>> >>> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. >>> >>> On 11/6/07, steve russell >> wrote: >>>> >>>> i say this with some degree of deference: >>>> >>>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. >>>> >>>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. >>>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, >>>> plot. >>>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. >>>> >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my >>>> money, the >>>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to >>>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing >>>> about >>>> meaning that drove >>>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear >>>> you have >>>> found some better >>>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout >>>> myself.... >>>> Anyway, I don't find >>>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about >>>> stanzas then? >>>> Or Faulkner. >>>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and >>>> fiction at >>>> all, but between poetry and >>>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush >>>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is >>>> drawn and >>>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am >>>> with >>>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this >>>> post >>>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) >>>> distinctions >>>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing >>>> about >>>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to >>>> generative or >>>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and >>>> lazy >>>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the >>>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural >>>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry >>>> has >>>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets >>>> and >>>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left >>>> with >>>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it >>>> relates to >>>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been >>>> such >>>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a >>>> way to >>>> draw a line where one is useful. >>>> >>>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, >>>> honestly, my >>>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find >>>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to >>>> them >>>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why >>>> for me, >>>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of >>>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it >>>> works also >>>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about >>>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the >>>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just >>>> as if >>>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art >>>> composed at >>>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense >>>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well >>>> as to >>>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different >>>> species. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that >>>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You >>>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its >>>>> boundaries >>>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that >>>>> poetry >>>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an >>>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I >>>>> don't >>>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS >>>>> poetry >>>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a >>>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry >>>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. >>>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time >>>>> management and >>>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being >>>>> served? >>>>> Cheers, Wystan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of >>>>> >>>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" >>>>> do you >>>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If >>>>> the >>>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that >>>>> enough >>>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to >>>>> attempt >>>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). >>>>> >>>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in >>>>> how I >>>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read >>>>> them. My >>>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point >>>>> where I've >>>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. >>>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to >>>>> say >>>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my >>>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >>>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, >>>>>> seek to >>>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from >>>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to >>>>>> >>>>> advantage. >>>>> >>>>>> Wystan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________ >>>> Do You Yahoo!? >>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>>> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > 06/11/2007 > 8:05 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.23/1114 - Release Date: > 06/11/2007 > 8:05 PM > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 01:53:34 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Were "Texts for Nothing" written in the manner of composition? I remember o= verhearing someone - or maybe reading it - that Beckett 'scored' these text= s with exact measurements. Joyce, I think, plays music on several occasions= in Ulysses, and furthermore in the Wake. No doubt.=20 If you're coming from the standpoint of traditional notation, e.g. 4/4, 3/4= , 12/3, etc., then you totally miss the point of 'inherent' musicality, whi= ch is individual. I suggest folks go to www.last.fm and check out musics in= fulenced by p16.d4, the hafler trio, phillip jeck, s.b.o.t.h.i., etc. etc... this will give you a better grasp of musicality, and hopefully prevent you = from making the mistake that things can be 'more' musical than other things= .=20 Not 'how' musical is it but 'how is it musical'. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas savage" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 07:37:12 -0800 >=20 >=20 > As for poetry being more "musical" than, say, prose, this makes=20 > more than a certain amount of sense. Even, oddly enough when=20 > considering prose poetry or poetry which uses prose rhythms in the=20 > mix. I think this is borne out by the fact that it is much easier=20 > to listen to poetry read out loud, even longish poems and prose=20 > poems, than it is to listen to prose fiction read out loud by its=20 > authors. Of course, being a poet, I have a prejudice in favor of=20 > poetry. But I've noticed over many years how difficult it is to=20 > listen to and to perform readings of prose fiction compared to the=20 > performance of poetry. This may not directly indicate the=20 > "musicality" of poetry in any easily explicable, logical way. But=20 > I believe it does so, anyway, since the easiest thing to listen to=20 > performed is, of course, music itself. >=20 > Barry Schwabsky wrote: (Johnny is=20 > musical, but the music he sings isn't particularly--does that make=20 > any sense?) >=20 > Chris Stroffolino wrote: Barry, this is interesting, but I think=20 > your examples actually prove > my point. > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt > content" > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > persona. >=20 > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) > from the > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's voice > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), it > would > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about the > beats as much as the words and the voice. > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some extent > melody, as much as rhythm. > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how > one is less "musical" than the other. >=20 > Chris >=20 > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >=20 > > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased=20 > > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical"=20 > > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country=20 > > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or=20 > > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in=20 > > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other=20 > > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to=20 > > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if=20 > > you think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to=20 > > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical=20 > > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from=20 > > any overt content they might have. > > > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there can be a shorthand=20 > > usefulness to the term on a specific > > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' and > > 'feminine' line endings, > > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently so > > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, as > > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of the > > poem's 'music.' > > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, or > > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds are > > sweeter," etc). > > > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often is. > > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" however > > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger in > > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell check). > > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that seems > > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and judgmental. > > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of "music" > > over another kind of music, categorically. > > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > > punk music" (or vice versa) > > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound or > > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound are > > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and manifesto...) > > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > > > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with "cadenced" > >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or=20 > >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: angela vasquez-giroux > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > >> respect... > >> > >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > >> descriptive words > >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > >> meaningless as > >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". > >> > >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do the > >> job. we > >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > >> > >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > >> > >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > > wrote: > >>> > >>> i say this with some degree of deference: > >>> > >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > >>> > >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, > >>> plot. > >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > >>> > >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my > >>> money, the > >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's musing > >>> about > >>> meaning that drove > >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to hear > >>> you have > >>> found some better > >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout > >>> myself.... > >>> Anyway, I don't find > >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about > >>> stanzas then? > >>> Or Faulkner. > >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > >>> fiction at > >>> all, but between poetry and > >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> > >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is > >>> drawn and > >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am with > >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this post > >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) > >>> distinctions > >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism musing > >>> about > >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to > >>> generative or > >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent and > >>> lazy > >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than the > >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and cultural > >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that poetry has > >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose poets and > >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're left > >>> with > >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > >>> relates to > >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's been > >>> such > >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have a > >>> way to > >>> draw a line where one is useful. > >>> > >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > >>> honestly, my > >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I find > >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to them > >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why > >>> for me, > >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional point of > >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it > >>> works also > >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of the > >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, just > >>> as if > >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > >>> composed at > >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes sense > >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well as to > >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different > >>> species. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is that > >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. You > >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its > >>>> boundaries > >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that poetry > >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to such an > >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. I > >>>> don't > >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS > >>>> poetry > >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or in a > >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be poetry > >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time > >>>> management and > >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are being > >>>> served? > >>>> Cheers, Wystan > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group > >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>>> > >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" > >>>> do you > >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? If > >>>> the > >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, that > >>>> enough > >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to > >>>> attempt > >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > >>>> > >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not in > >>>> how I > >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read > >>>> them. My > >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point > >>>> where I've > >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is to > >>>> say > >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about my > >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > >>>> > >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj > >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, seek to > >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results from > >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >>>>> > >>>> advantage. > >>>> > >>>>> Wystan > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> __________________________________________________ > >>> Do You Yahoo!? > >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >>> http://mail.yahoo.com > >>> >=20 >=20 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > =3D Messaging Security Solutions Compare Products, Learn Buying Tips, & Best Practices. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D606c565e9138441707248= 0f49ca32e82 --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:37:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit right oh but lots of sound poetry is musical by the nature of the sounds they produce ursonata for example and in some cases i.e. me natural rhythms from improving with in the language On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:47:59 +1000 Komninos Zervos writes: > what about poetry that works against 'musicality' and phonographic > techniques of rhyme, metre, etc? > surely not all poetry can be described as musical, ie concrete > poetry, some sound poetry, some digital poetries, etc? > komninos > -- > komninos zervos > http://komninos.com.au > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:39:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Ben Elton is a genius. But what I will point out is that Baldrick's novel is a paragraph. "Once upon a time there was a lovely little sausage called Baldrick, and he lived happily ever after. The End." So therefore it's a prose novel. As for Humpty Dumpty's story, i don't remember it from Aloce om Wonderland and google isn't being helpful, although I will say that Humpty Dumpty's discourse on semiotics in Through the Looking Glass is one of my favorite Lewis Carroll moments. Right up there with the Walrus and The Carpenter and the Caterpillar. On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Alison Croggon wrote: > Apologies if I misunderstood you, Elizabeth. Still, I have some empathy for > Wystan's idea that all writing has power (and if it doesn't, what are we > doing?) I guess it all depends on what you mean by power. - Btw, Wystan, I > _like_ putting poetry where it doesn't belong. I've found that as soon as > you do, it starts belonging. > > I'm not sure that the "expected audience" definition really holds water, > though of course it's indisputable that the literary market is dominated by > prose. But a lot of the prose I find most interesting won't sell much more > than poetry might. Print runs of 1000 or so are more common than not. I read > somewhere that a best-selling literary novel in the UK means around 10,000 > copies, which isn't exactly huge. It's only at one end that prose is > dominant, and that's generally a certain kind of prose - story-driven, > character-based, often generic (I don't mean those as pejorative terms, btw, > like all conventions it's all about what you do with them). > > Jason, your MMUs make me think rather mischievously of Humpty Dumpty's story > in Alice in Wonderland - "Once there was a boater". Or Baldrick's novel in > Blackadder - "Once were there was a lovely little sausage named Baldrick". > Perhaps they're poems? > > All best > > A > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 15:38:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 13, Fall 2007, Now Online! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ********************************************************** Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 13, Fall 2007, Now Online! Featuring poetry by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino, Suzanne Ryan, Stephen Baraban, Hugh Fox, Holly Iglesias, Skip Fox, Sheila Murphy, Mark Weiss, Roger Mitchell, Gary Beck, Gianina Opris and James Grabill; and fiction by Helen Duberstein, Anne Earney, Joan Newburger, and Niama Leslie Williams. http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr13.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Submissions to the Hamilton Stone Review Hamilton Stone Review invites submissions of poetry for Issue #14, which will be out in Feb. 2008. Poetry submissions should go, only by email, directly to Halvard Johnson at halvard@earthlink.net. Please include "HSR14 submission" and your name in your subject line, and also include a brief bio note with your submission. All poems in a single attachment, please, and/or in body of email message. Fiction submissions closed until further notice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hamilton Stone Review is produced by Hamilton Stone Editions. http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ PLEASE SEND THIS ALONG TO OTHERS ********************************************************** Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:09:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit langpos want to avoid musicality in most cases - substitute it with dull humor and non-sequiter word play flatnesses hey i'll be in frisco area dec 6-11 looking for a reading on 9th or 10th any ideas out there? On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:41:46 +0000 Barry Schwabsky writes: > In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an > example of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he > gives it in something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier > discussion, this is somehow related to my feeling that there is as > much torque in poem by Philip Larkin as in one by any given Language > poet.) And yet, and yet...as genres, jazz still seems more "musical" > to me than country, the reason being somehow tied to the fact that > if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do something like scat > singing, to push his interpretation into some more abstract area--if > he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his producer have > yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to follow > him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre > on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? > > Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it > but can't define it" adhesion is radicality. > > But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any > solo recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early > records. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually > prove > my point. > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play > > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal > > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt > > content" > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > persona. > > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) > > from the > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's > voice > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), > it > would > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or > > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm > > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about > the > beats as much as the words and the voice. > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some > extent > melody, as much as rhythm. > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how > one is less "musical" than the other. > > Chris > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > > > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > > any overt content they might have. > > > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' > and > > 'feminine' line endings, > > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently > so > > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, > as > > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of > the > > poem's 'music.' > > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, > or > > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds > are > > sweeter," etc). > > > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often > is. > > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" > however > > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger > in > > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell > check). > > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that > seems > > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and > judgmental. > > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of > "music" > > over another kind of music, categorically. > > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > > punk music" (or vice versa) > > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound > or > > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound > are > > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and > manifesto...) > > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > > > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with > "cadenced" > >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: angela vasquez-giroux > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > >> respect... > >> > >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > >> descriptive words > >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > >> meaningless as > >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". > >> > >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do > the > >> job. we > >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > >> > >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > >> > >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > > wrote: > >>> > >>> i say this with some degree of deference: > >>> > >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > >>> > >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, > >>> plot. > >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > >>> > >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my > >>> money, the > >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's > musing > >>> about > >>> meaning that drove > >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to > hear > >>> you have > >>> found some better > >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout > >>> myself.... > >>> Anyway, I don't find > >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about > >>> stanzas then? > >>> Or Faulkner. > >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > >>> fiction at > >>> all, but between poetry and > >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> > >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is > >>> drawn and > >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am > > >>> with > >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this > > >>> post > >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) > >>> distinctions > >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism > musing > >>> about > >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to > >>> generative or > >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent > and > >>> lazy > >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than > the > >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and > cultural > >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that > poetry > >>> has > >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose > poets > >>> and > >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're > left > >>> with > >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > >>> relates to > >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's > been > >>> such > >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have > a > >>> way to > >>> draw a line where one is useful. > >>> > >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > >>> honestly, my > >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I > find > >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to > > >>> them > >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why > >>> for me, > >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional > point of > >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it > >>> works also > >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of > the > >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, > just > >>> as if > >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > >>> composed at > >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes > sense > >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well > >>> as to > >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different > >>> species. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is > that > >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. > You > >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its > >>>> boundaries > >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that > >>>> poetry > >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to > such an > >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. > I > >>>> don't > >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS > >>>> poetry > >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or > in a > >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be > poetry > >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time > >>>> management and > >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are > being > >>>> served? > >>>> Cheers, Wystan > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group > >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>>> > >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" > >>>> do you > >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? > If > >>>> the > >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, > that > >>>> enough > >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to > >>>> attempt > >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > >>>> > >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not > in > >>>> how I > >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read > >>>> them. My > >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point > >>>> where I've > >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is > to > >>>> say > >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about > my > >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > >>>> > >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj > >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, > >>>>> seek to > >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results > from > >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >>>>> > >>>> advantage. > >>>> > >>>>> Wystan > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> __________________________________________________ > >>> Do You Yahoo!? > >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >>> http://mail.yahoo.com > >>> > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:16:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: New @ Bridge Street: Ashbery, Howe, Boykoff, Picabia, Reverdy, Gevirtz, Dickison, Dorn, Inman, Landers, Kharms, &&& MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We thank you just because you support Bridge Street Books. Ordering and discount information at the end of this post. NOTES FROM THE AIR: SELECTED LATER POEMS, John Ashbery, Ecco, cloth 364 pgs, $34.95. Selected poems from _April Galleons_ to _Where Shall I Wander_. "A yak is a prehistoric cabbbage: of that, at least, we may be sure." JOHN ASHBERY AND YOU: HIS LATER BOOKS, John Emil Vincent, U Georgia, cloth 196 pgs, $32.95. Chapters on each book from _April Galleons to _Your Name Here._ HORACE, Tim Atkins, O Books, 78 pgs, $12. "Owing to a shortage of cocaine, / I turned my back on public life" BEYOND BULLETS: THE SUPPRESSION OF DISSENT IN THE UNITED STATES, Jules Boykoff, AK Press, 464 pgs, $21.95. Boykoff explains hoiw the government has marginalized, channeled, infiltrated, co-opted, and repressed progressive movements in the US over the past hundred years. BEYOND MAXIMUS: THE CONSTRUCTION OF PUBLIC VOICE IN BLACK MOUNTAIN POETRY, Anne Day Dewey, Stanford, cloth 288 pgs, $60. Addresses Pound, Zukofsky, Olson, Creeley, Duncan, Levertov, Dorn, and others. Dewey uses the poets' correspondence and other archival materials to illuminate their mutual influence and the crucial significance of 'field poetics' to their careers from the mid-fifties through the Vietnam war era. DISPOSED, Steve Dickison, Post-Apollo, 54 pgs, $15. "at the woodside, yon lone tone / on her left bicep tattooed / indigo block letters J'AI / PEUR" ED DORN LIVE: LECTURES, INTERVIEWS, AND OUTTAKES, ed Joseph Richey, U. Michigan, 174 pgs, $18.95. "I'm saying more than that." THRALL, Susan Gevirtz, Post-Apollo, 104 pgs, $15. "Yes, ice cream is / made of snow" WAR AND PEACE 3 --THE FUTURE--, ed Judith Goldman & Leslie Scalapino, O Books, 164 pgs, Reilly, Halpern, Scappettone, Iijima, Donovan, Young, Burger, Toscano, Stein, Conrad, Hartz, McClure, Cross, Mittenthal, Brazil, Lomax, Andrews, Javier, Landers, Hofer, Jarnot, F Howe, Brown, Saidenberg, Armantrout, Hejinian, Treadwell Jackson, Browne, Waldman, Hollo, Ratcliffe, Jones, Harrison, Buuck, & Mara Ann. HERSELF DEFINED: H.D. AND HER WORLD, Barbara Guest, Schaffner, 360 pgs, $7.98. Regulary $21.95. Limited number available at this price. SOULS OF THE LABADIE TRACT, Susan Howe, New Directions, 128 pgs, $16.95. "Strife of self this is for flesh/ Swim for why not unbelief" 4 OR 5, P. Inman, interrupting cow, 28 pgs, "hue/ weag/ leap/ erg/ ) lennie-bird" MEDIA POETRY: AN ANTHOLOGY, ed Eduardo Kac, Intellect Ltd, 296 pgs, $35. This is a revised and expanded version of the 1996 special issue of _Visual Language_. Articles on Quantum Poetics, Interactive Poems, Virtual Poetry, Nomadic Poems, Holopoetry, Videopoetry, Biopoetry, &&&, by Rosenberg, Strickland, Kruglanski, Cayley, Seaman, Castro, Bootz, Block, and others. TODAY I WROTE NOTHING: THE SELECTED WRITINGS OF DANIIL KHARMS, ed & trans Matvei Yankelevich, Overlook, cloth 288 pgs, $35. "today I wrote nothing. Doesn't matter." ON THE EDGE: COLLECTED LONG POEMS, Kenneth Koch, Knopf, cloth 416 pgs, $35. Collects six longer poems including "When the Sun Tries to Go On," "Impressions of Africa," and "Seasons on Earth." "Now it is May in the ape. O acids" THE COLLECTED POEMS OF KENNETH KOCH, Knopf, 760 pgs, $29.95. New in paperback. COVERS, Susan Landers, O Books, 56 pgs, $12. ""Thus I saw mutation." O CADOIRO, Erin Moure, Anansi, 136 pgs, $13.95. "Does a flower sleep?" WOMEN, THE NEW YORK SCHOOL, AND OTHER ABSTRACTIONS, Maggie Nelson, U Iowa, cloth 296 pgs, $42.50. Chapters on Guest, Mayer, Notley, Myles, as well as painter Joan Mitchell. Nelson also addresses gender in the work of Ashbery, O'Hara, & Schuler.Plus which, she has a Kim Gordon blurb. I AM A BEAUTIFUL MONTER; POETRY, PROSE, AND PROVOCATION, Francis Picabia, trans Marc Lowenthal, MIT., cloth480 pgs, $39.95. "Art = God = Bullshit + Mercantilism. / Piss off." THE ARTWORK CAUGHT BY THE TAIL: FRANCIS PICABIA AND DADA IN PARIS, George Baker, MIT, cloth 478 pgs, $39.95. "Benjamin's implication was clear." ART AND REVOLUTION: TRANSVERSAL ACTIVISM IN THE LONG TWENTIETH CENTURY, Gerald Raunig, Semiotext(e), 320 pgs, $17.95. Sweeping study addressing the overlap of art & revolution from Courbet, Russian Constructivism, to the Situationist Intl, Viennese Actionist, and the Publix-TheatreCaravan. PROSE POEMS, Pierre Reverdy, trans Ron Padgett, Brooklyn Rail/Black Square, 64 pgs, $15. "What a dance, what a party!" BLACK STONE, Dale Smith, Effing Press, 78 pgs, $12. "What is she saying, and who's it to?" THE BACK ROOM: AN ANTHOLOGY, ed Matthew Stadler, Clear Cut, 496 pgs, $15. Bellamy, Biswas, Duford, Focke, Gaitskill, Killian, Koestenbaum, Rinder, Robertson, Samaha, Verchot, Vidal, & others. FRANKLIN EVANS, OR THE INEBRIATE: A TALE OF THE TIMES, Walt Whitman, Duke, 150 pgs, $21.95. Whitman's only novel, published in 1842. "The crisis came at last." METEORIC FLOWERS, Elizabeth Willis, Wesleyan, 84 pgs, $13.95. New in paperback. Some Bestsellers: ABOUT NOW: COLLECTED POEMS, Joanne Kyger, Natl Poetry Foundation, 798 pgs, $34.95. IN THE PINES, Alice Notley, Penguin, 132 pgs, $18 DEED, Rod Smith, U Iowa, 88 pgs, $16. NEXT LIFE, Rae Armantrout, Wesleyan, 80 pgs, $13.95. THE MIDDLE ROOM, Jennifer Moxley, Subpress, 633 pgs, $25. TELEGRAPH, Kaya Oakes, Pavement Saw, 78 pgs, $14. HOW TO BE PERFECT, Ron Padgett, Coffee House, 114 pgs, $15. THE GRAND PIANO PART 3, Benson, Mandel, Harryman, Armantrout, Hejinian, Perelman, Watten, Pearson, Robinson, & Silliman, Mode A, 128 pgs, $12.95. SUDDEN ADDRESS: SELECTED LECTURES 1981-2006, Bill Berkson, Cuneiform, 110 pgs, $10. STARSDOWN, Jasper Bernes, ingirimusnoctetconsumimugi, 96 pgs, $13. THE MARVELOUS BONES OF TIME, Brenda Coultas, Coffee House, 144 pgs, $15. THE MISSING OCCASION OF SAYING YES, Benjamin Friedlander, Subpress, 196 pgs, $16. HANNAH WEINER'S OPEN HOUSE, edited, with an introduction by Patrick Durgin, 180 pgs, $14.95. A BOOK OF PROPHECIES, John Wieners, Bootstrap, 140 pgs, $15. HUMAN RESOURCES, Rachel Zolf, Coach House, 96 pgs, $14.95. THE TRANSFORMATION, Juliana Spahr, Atelos, 230 pgs, $13.50. PROFANATIONS, Giorgio Agamben, trans Jeff Fort, Zone, 104 pgs, cloth $25.95. OPEN BOX (IMPROVISATIONS), Carla Harryman, Belladonna, 88 pgs, $12. THINE INSTEAD THINK, Jeffrey Jullich, Harry Tankoos, 116 pgs, $15. THIN GLOVES, Deborah Meadows, Green Integer, 136 pgs, $12.95. LIP WOLF, Laura Solorzano, trans Jen Hofer, Action Books, 118 pgs, $14. COMPLEX SLEEP, Tony Tost, U Iowa, 108 pgs, $16. SWOON NOIR, Bruce Andrews, Chax, 136 pgs, $16. COLLECTED PROSE, Rae Armantrout, Singing Horse, 172 pgs, $17. THE AGE OF HUTS (COMPLEAT), Ron Silliman, U. Cal, 311 pgs, $19.95. DS (2), Kamau Brathwaite, New Directions, 266 pgs, $18.95. OUR FRIENDS WILL PASS AMONG YOU SILENTLY, Bill Berkson, Owl Press, 64 pgs, $14. CALLER AND OTHER PIECES, Tom Raworth, Edge, 48 pgs, $12.50. THE OUTERNATIONALE, Peter Gizzi, Wesleyan, cloth 112 pgs, $22.95. DAILY SONNETS, Laynie Browne, 164 pgs, $15.50. JAM ALERTS, Linh Dinh, Chax, 146 pgs, $16. ULULU, Thalia Field, Coffee House, 256 pgs, $25. FOLLY, Nada Gordon, Roof, 128 pgs, $13.95. A FIDDLE PULLED FROM THE THROAT OF A SPARROW, Noah Eli Gordon, New Issues, 96 pgs, $14. MY ANGIE DICKINSON, Michael Magee, Zasterlee, 80 pgs, $12.95.NINETEEN LINES: A DRAWING CENTER ANTHOLOGY, ed Lytle Shaw, DrawingCenter/Roof, 336 pgs, $24.95. I, AFTERLIFE: ESSAY IN MOURNING TIME, Kristin Prevallet, 66 pgs, $12.95. DAY OCEAN STATE OF STAR'S NIGHT: POEMS & WRITINGS 1989 & 1999-2006, Leslie Scalapino, Green Integer, 208 pgs, $17.95. KLUGE: A MEDITATION, Brian Kim Stefans, Roof, 128 pgs, $13.95. ORDERING INFORMATION: There are two ways to order: 1. E-mail your order to rod@bridgestreetbooks.com or aerialedge@gmail.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail w/ yr add, order, card #, & expiration date & we will send a receipt with the books. Please remember to include expiration date. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:27:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Melnicove Subject: Words and Images submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the editors of Words and Images asked me to post this on the poet= ics list so here it is. Words and Images, a literary journal published in Portland, Maine, sinc= e 1969, is looking for poetry submissions for the Spring, 2008, issue. = No tired writing, please; poems must be excellent and alive. We're look= ing for poetry with an emphasis on form and technique, about specific p= laces and specific feelings. We're also looking for quietly experimenta= l poems - for work which pushes the boundaries of form, but never at th= e expense of emotion. We do not want any poems about writing poetry wi= elding their postmodernity for no reason other than just to do so! More= information is online at wordsnimages.org. Deadline for submissions = is December 31, 2007. Don't feel daunted for lack of previous publicati= ons; we shine flashlights under rocks in search of new voices. Check us= out. Onward! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:45:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Cervantes Subject: Fall, 2007 Salt River Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Salt River Review, Volume 10, Number 2, Fall 2007, is now online with Poetry by Carlos Barbarito, Mario Benedetti, Pablo Antonio Cuadra, Julie R. Enszer, Jerry Mirskin, Lee Passarella, Jami Macarty,Doug Ramspeck, Tad Richards, Matt Sadler, Elizabeth Laborde, Steve Trebellas & Lisa Steinman. Fiction by Denis Emorine, Tsipi Keller, Norman Lock & Andrea Fitzpatrick. Poetry editor for this issue was Greg Simon, fiction editor was Carol Novack. Submissions are now open for the Winter issue - please read guidelines carefully. We will be celebrating our 10th anniversary online with that issue and the following Spring, 2008 issue. Visit at http://www.poetserv.org/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:25:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Musical as descriptive of poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since I made the musical comment it seemed appropriate that I should pitch a few thoughts into the ring: I've been recently reading Borges so I'll start -- ******************************************************************************** Although Borges states that all art aspires to Music, painting is the penultimate muse. Of course, Borges wasn't talking about inspiration. & the fact that music & poetry share many characteristics is obvious. But painting & poetry are similar too. Not long ago, Cezanne & DA DA where at the east & west wings of the National Gallery in D.C. In Cezanne, I saw quietness, a master serenely delving into nature. Painting seems somehow both scientific & spiritual. It seemed as though Cezanne was in awe of nature, intent on looking deeply & getting as much as possible on to the canvas. Both his landscapes & his portraiture were breath taking. Cezanne, both classicist & innovator. It seems obvious that he anticipated cubism. & Da Da: It was as jarring as it was exhilarating to see the contrast, the way Da Da reflected the upheaval in the 30s, and to reflect back on Cezanne. Cezanne seemed a monk compared to Duchamp & the world that DA DA came out of. Usually, when I attend an art exhibit, I maintain what seems an appropriate emotional distance from the work I'm viewing. In these exhibits, it seemed I was more emotionally then intellectually charged. I envy painters. I sometimes long for an escape from language. The eye is so incredibly precious. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:13:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vireo Nefer Subject: Re: dismissing stein In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Apropo of ? i dreamt of Gertrude and Alice last night. i wanted to know if anyone ever saw/photographed/drew their bedroom, as i knew it was never seen by anyone else in their lifetimes. i wondered if it was decorated as i was sure Alice liked things--throws and curtains and lounging areas and so bohemian. Vireo (Denise) On Nov 6, 2007 11:17 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > hello all, > > here's an unfortunate, dismissive take on gertrude stein by way of reviewing > janet malcom's recent bio: > > "I happily admit I haven't read The Making of Americans (1934) and have no > intention of doing so, since it's half a million words long, and almost all > of those sound like this: I mean, I mean and that is not what I mean. I mean > that not any one is saying what they are meaning. I mean that I am feeling > something, I mean that I mean something and I mean that not any one is > thinking, is feeling, is saying, is certain of that thing, I mean that not > any one can be. And so on and so forth." > > "Her charm emerges periodically in her books. The Autobiography of Alice B > Toklas (1933) is a perfect, lucid delight; Tender Buttons (1914) sounds, not > unattractively, like the work of Edith Sitwell after a pint or two of vodka; > and Wars I Have Seen (1944) is disconcertingly indistinguishable in style > and in every respect from the Anita Loos novel Gentlemen Prefer Blondes > (1925)." > > "But was Stein really all that interested in anything? You would be hard-put > to extract any cogent statement on any subject from almost any of her > books." > > full piece at < > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/10/25/bomalc120.xml > > > > sadly, > tom orange > -- AIM: vireonefer LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=vireoibis VireoNyx Publications: http://www.vireonyxpub.org INK: http://www.inkemetic.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:47:52 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Writing etc., etc., is always something of a language battleground. I have trouble using the word creative because of the purposes to which it is used by people and in situations of influence. I have no such trouble in the way you use it here, and indeed agree with all you say-my word 'understanding' does not, as you say, say enough. If you are now expanding on your 'poetry, well, you draw your own conclusions', well, I have no complaints. What Murat took from it, however, was something different: cutting one's cloth according to size of audience, and it seemed to me to make you both advocates for a poetry as practice outside the public sphere. So, accepting your reservations about the use of the word understanding I still prefer your definition of prose.=20 =20 There is a complex and interesting history of poetry/prose distinctions stretching back behind this thread. I'm much less interested than some people in the inhouse issue between poetry and fiction, poetry and criticism which too often comes down to craft issues which are mostly boring, than in the question of where poetry (and literature, in general) sits in relation to the writing practices in the public sphere. Calling those practices 'prose' was confusing, I grant. Or, rather those craft issues are not boring if they are always thought of as having a relation like it or not --it could be called a political relation--to the aforesaid writing practices. the jig-saw analogy is useful as far as it goes, but you can see (I hope) I want something more from the distinction. Cheer, Wystan (snarky person) =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim Andrews Sent: Thursday, 8 November 2007 7:44 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: what do you think of > What you both have to say accords at one level what goes on in my own=20 > writing life. But writing for oneself, for one's own understanding=20 > alone, is the fall back position, the limit case. I don't think any of > us would bother if we didn't think we might extend the size of our=20 > expected audience, which is to say poetry IS what you write when you=20 > think you might be understood.Wystan When you write/draw/program/paint/perform/whatever a poem that people respond well to, sometimes it's because it has somehow engaged them creatively; there may indeed be material to understand in the poem, and that may be part of the other person's interest in it, but who on earth reads poetry simply to understand what the poet is saying? I think many read it to be engaged creatively in what they can make of it. Poetry is always already interactive. Is it a jig-saw or can it be put together more ways than one? Jig-saws are prose. Poetry is a much more interesting construction. One that doesn't simply seek to be 'understood' but to engage the reader creatively, let them bring their whole wealth of knowledge and experience to an active construction of meaning, meaning which may ultimately be of their own making. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:55:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Moriarty & DuCharme reading on Saturday Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 If anyone is in the vicinity of Boulder, Colorado this Saturday, November 1= 0th, I'd love to see you at this event. * poet and novelist LAURA MORIARTY poet MARK DuCHARME Naropa University Performing Arts Center 2130 Arapahoe Avenue Boulder, CO 80302 8:00 p.m. FREE and open to the public * I will be reading from my new book THE SENSORY CABINET. http://www.blazevox.org/bk-md.htm _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 04:31:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: please trim your posts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All, I am personally beggin all of you to trim old material from your posts as much as possible, as a courtesy to those of us who receive digests, so that we don't spend all our time scrolling through old messages we've already read. Quoting layers (>, >>) are not reliable guides for which messages are current. This will encourage us poor digesters, perhaps, to contribute more to the discussion. At the risk of appearing ignorant, can someone (Pierre? Barry?...) provide a rigorous definition of deep image for me? Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 43 (2007) from One Million Dollars in Play Money by Denise Duhamel Denise Duhamel's most recent books are Two and Two (University of Pittsburgh Press, 2005), Mille et un sentiments (Firewheel Editions, 2005), and Queen for a Day: Selected and New Poems (University of Pittsburgh Press, 2001). She teaches creative writing at Florida International University in Miami. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:07:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Scrub! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scrub By Emily Nemens Shady Lane Press November 2007 Wash me, till I am whiter than snow. --Kol Nidre Service, Gates of Repentance Each September, the Jewish calendar begins anew with Rosh Hashanah. It is followed by ten Days of Awe, a period of reflection and repentance. The High Holy Days close with Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. On this day Jews fast and ask God to forgive their sins. Reminded of human suffering by the day’s hunger pangs, they also pardon all who have wronged them in the past year, and pray all those that they have wronged will grant the same forgiveness. The absolution of these worldly conflicts is given the same significance as prayers offered up to heaven, and only after this cycle is complete may the new year begin. Scrub is collection of stories written in and about these holy days. Taken out of the context of Judaism, the stories explore the more universal process of atonement. A homeless man walking across Providence, a pregnant sixteen-year-old cruising around Seattle, an Italian ballet dancer performing on New York’s premier stage, and a boy driving across the country to save his best friend...each has been dealt a shattering blow, and each is seeking the forgiveness that will set them on the path to being whole again. Wrestling with transgression and repentance, the characters of Scrub try to wash away their wrongs by extreme measure, eventually turning to acceptance and finally finding hope. Three of the four stories in Scrub were written during the author’s first month as writer-in-residence at the Kerouac Project of Orlando in September 2007. The fourth, Blue-eyed Apples, is the prologue to her first novel and the piece she submitted to the Kerouac Project’s selection committee. The author illustrated the collection as well. About the Author Emily Nemens is the Fall 2007 writer in residence at the Kerouac House. Always striving to bring visual arts, design, and literature together in a compelling way, she has written and illustrated a graphic novel about the 2004 Madrid train bombings (on-view at www.nemens.com/madrid_comic.html), edited a book for the Education department of The Metropolitan Museum of Art, and an excerpt of her first novel, Blue-eyed Apples, was selected for The L Magazine’s 2007 Literary Upstart Competition. She grew up in Seattle and graduated from Brown University in 2005. She now lives in Brooklyn, where she works as a writer, designer, painter, and occasional musician. Here’s where you can meet Emily, hear her read, and get a signed copy of Scrub: Wednesday, November 14th @ 7pm - "Soft Focus" at Infusion Tea, 1600 Edgewater Drive, Orlando, 32804. Saturday, November 17th @ 8pm - Emily's Farewell Reading at the Kerouac House, 1418 Clouser Avenue, Orlando, FL 32804. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:22:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <20071108.141744.1200.13.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, Steve, a pretty fair number of Language poets are accomplished musicians. Sheila E. Murphy and Peter Ganick come to mind immediately. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 2:10 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry langpos want to avoid musicality in most cases - substitute it with dull humor and non-sequiter word play flatnesses hey i'll be in frisco area dec 6-11 looking for a reading on 9th or 10th any ideas out there? On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:41:46 +0000 Barry Schwabsky writes: > In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as an > example of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he > gives it in something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier > discussion, this is somehow related to my feeling that there is as > much torque in poem by Philip Larkin as in one by any given Language > poet.) And yet, and yet...as genres, jazz still seems more "musical" > to me than country, the reason being somehow tied to the fact that > if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do something like scat > singing, to push his interpretation into some more abstract area--if > he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his producer have > yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to follow > him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this genre > on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? > > Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it > but can't define it" adhesion is radicality. > > But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost any > solo recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his early > records. > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually > prove > my point. > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might play > > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash does, > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly vocal > > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged "overt > > content" > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > persona. > > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in general) > > from the > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's > voice > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), > it > would > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two or > > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets rhythm > > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about > the > beats as much as the words and the voice. > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some > extent > melody, as much as rhythm. > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic backbeat, > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see how > one is less "musical" than the other. > > Chris > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible non-biased > > way to understand how some forms of music might be less "musical" > > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and in > > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if you > > > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted from > > any overt content they might have. > > > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' > and > > 'feminine' line endings, > > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on the > > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read silently > so > > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, throat, > as > > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects of > the > > poem's 'music.' > > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung (to, > or > > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't mind > > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds > are > > sweeter," etc). > > > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be (and > > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often > is. > > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, and > > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" > however > > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger > in > > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell > check). > > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem O, > > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that > seems > > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, the > > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and > judgmental. > > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of > "music" > > over another kind of music, categorically. > > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera over > > punk music" (or vice versa) > > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera is > > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the term > > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound > or > > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, or > > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound > are > > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and > manifesto...) > > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > > > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with > "cadenced" > >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: angela vasquez-giroux > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > >> respect... > >> > >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > >> descriptive words > >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > >> meaningless as > >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". > >> > >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do > the > >> job. we > >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > >> > >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > >> > >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > > wrote: > >>> > >>> i say this with some degree of deference: > >>> > >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > >>> > >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to character, > >>> plot. > >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > >>> > >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my > >>> money, the > >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's > musing > >>> about > >>> meaning that drove > >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to > hear > >>> you have > >>> found some better > >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the lookout > >>> myself.... > >>> Anyway, I don't find > >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about > >>> stanzas then? > >>> Or Faulkner. > >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > >>> fiction at > >>> all, but between poetry and > >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> > >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason Quackenbush > >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction is > >>> drawn and > >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally am > > >>> with > >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of this > > >>> post > >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) > >>> distinctions > >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism > musing > >>> about > >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to > >>> generative or > >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent > and > >>> lazy > >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics than > the > >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and > cultural > >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that > poetry > >>> has > >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose > poets > >>> and > >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're > left > >>> with > >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > >>> relates to > >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's > been > >>> such > >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer have > a > >>> way to > >>> draw a line where one is useful. > >>> > >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > >>> honestly, my > >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. I > find > >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond to > > >>> them > >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is why > >>> for me, > >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional > point of > >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it > >>> works also > >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something about > >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level of > the > >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, > just > >>> as if > >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > >>> composed at > >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes > sense > >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as well > >>> as to > >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different > >>> species. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is > that > >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external circumstances'. > You > >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its > >>>> boundaries > >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that > >>>> poetry > >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to > such an > >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing both. > I > >>>> don't > >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, IS > >>>> poetry > >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page or > in a > >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be > poetry > >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time > >>>> management and > >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are > being > >>>> served? > >>>> Cheers, Wystan > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group > >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > >>>> > >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the age" > >>>> do you > >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external circumstances? > If > >>>> the > >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, > that > >>>> enough > >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful to > >>>> attempt > >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > >>>> > >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is not > in > >>>> how I > >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I read > >>>> them. My > >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point > >>>> where I've > >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about poetry. > >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which is > to > >>>> say > >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more about > my > >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of course. > >>>> > >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj > >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, > >>>>> seek to > >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands results > from > >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused to > >>>>> > >>>> advantage. > >>>> > >>>>> Wystan > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> __________________________________________________ > >>> Do You Yahoo!? > >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >>> http://mail.yahoo.com > >>> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:50:53 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Re: Musical as descriptive of poetry Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 I envy painters. I=20 > sometimes long for an escape from language. The eye is so=20 > incredibly precious. Steve,=20 I, too, long for an escape from language. I think this best resonates with = why I write poetry... Best, Christophe =3D Healthcare Leadership Certificates Complete 100% Online in 8 wks - Study Leadership, HR, Ethics and more. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D61d0106feb9d73cf6b75e= 151bd5adf24 --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Helen Adam Event Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Kristin Prevallet asked me to forward this announcement to the list: BOWERY ARTS AND SCIENCE PRESENTS Helen Adam's Praise Day in celebration of A Helen Adam Reader Edited with notes and an introduction by Kristin Prevallet (published by the National Poetry Foundation) Saturday November 10, 2007 Bowery Poetry Club, 6-8 pm Featuring musical and spoken word interpretations of Helen Adam ballads by: Bob Holman and Vito Ricci A brief view of the Hudson (Ann Enzminger, Nicholas Nace, Joel Herzig) Lee Ann Brown Lisa Jarnot Nada Gordon Joe Maynard and the Musties Gary Glazner The Bowery Poetry Club Bowery between Bleeker and Houston, NYC (following the 4pm Segue reading with Sean Cole and Brandon Downing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:07:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Hamilton Stone Review 13 (w/ correct link) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The link this time is correct. ********************************************************** Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 13, Fall 2007, Now Online! Featuring poetry by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino, Suzanne Ryan, Stephen Baraban, Hugh Fox, Holly Iglesias, Skip Fox, Sheila Murphy, Mark Weiss, Roger Mitchell, Gary Beck, Gianina Opris and James Grabill; and fiction by Helen Duberstein, Anne Earney, Joan Newburger, and Niama Leslie Williams. http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr13.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Submissions to the Hamilton Stone Review Hamilton Stone Review invites submissions of poetry for Issue #14, which will be out in Feb. 2008. Poetry submissions should go, only by email, directly to Halvard Johnson at halvard@earthlink.net. Please include "HSR14 submission" and your name in your subject line, and also include a brief bio note with your submission. All poems in a single attachment, please, and/or in body of email message. Fiction submissions closed until further notice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hamilton Stone Review is produced by Hamilton Stone Editions. http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ PLEASE SEND THIS ALONG TO OTHERS ********************************************************** Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:32:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: school, protest, democracy, petition Comments: To: dreamtime@yahoogroups.com, Theory and Writing Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (I normally don't fwd online petitions but in this case it seems like anything is better than silence.. The Chi Trib link requires registration. ~mIEKAL) High school students - who are targeted by army recruiters in the halls of their school -- staged a peaceful antiwar protest, and are facing expulsion. A teaching moment. read http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi- mortonprotest_09_webnov09,1,1989534.story?ctrack=3&cset=true http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2007/11/you-may-as-well-break- goddamned-rules.html sign the petition (6500 so far) To: Morton West School District, In Defense of the Morton West Antiwar Students http://www.petitiononline.com/mortonw/petition.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:08:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project November In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, We have scheduled some really great poets to read for you and there=B9s going to be a potluck. It=B9ll be a special week here at The Poetry Project. Monday, November 12, 8PM Guillermo Castro & Melissa Buzzeo Guillermo Castro is a poet and translator and the author of the chapbook To= y Storm. His work has appeared in many journals and anthologies. His non-fiction is featured in the anthology Latin Lovers. His translations of Argentine poet Olga Orozco, in collaboration with poet Ron Drummond, are featured in Visions and The U.S. Latino Review. His collaborative piece wit= h composer Doug Geers, Bride of Kong, was presented on CCi ComposersCollaborative's Non Sequitur 2000 summer festival on the Mainstage at HERE (NYC). Born in 1977 in NY, Melissa Buzzeo has worked as a counselor= , curator, professor and palmreader. Her first full length book What Began Us is just out from Leon Works (NY). A second, Face, is forthcoming fall 2007 from Book Thug (Toronto). In addition she is the author of three chapbooks: In the Garden of the Book, City M and Near: a luminescence. Wednesday, November 14, 8 PM Ron Padgett & Susie Timmons Ron Padgett will be reading from his new collection of poems, How to Be Perfect, just published by Coffee House Press. Other books of his include You Never Know (poems), If I Were You (collaborative works), and two memoirs, Oklahoma Tough: My Father, King of the Tulsa Bootleggers and Joe: = A Memoir of Joe Brainard. Next year Black Widow Books will issue Padgett and Bill Zavatsky=B9s translation of Valery Larbaud=B9s Poems of A. O. Barnabooth. Susie Timmons lives in Brooklyn. Her work has been published in recent issues of Court Green, Columbia Review and other little magazines, and appears in the anthology Up is Up and So is Down. Her book Locked From the Outside (winner of the inaugural Ted Berrigan Award) is readily available. She currently has several manuscripts nearing completion. Friday, November 16, 10 PM Poets' Potluck Just as it sounds: poets and the (ingestible) goods they bring. Please join us for a low-key night of readings, screenings, performances and really goo= d homemade food. Stacy Szymaszek might bring cheesecake, Arlo Quint might bring a cake baked by Christa Quint, John Coletti will whip up something delicious, as will Filip Marinovic, David Gatten, James Hoff and other fabulous people. Fun times ahead. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:22:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Visiting Professorship in Poetry Writing at the U. of Miami Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed The creative writing program here at the University of Miami has =20 begun a search for a visiting associate professor/poet. Please see =20 the announcement below, which has already appeared on the MLA, AWP, =20 and other job lists. Best, Walter K. Lew Dept. of English University of Miami P.O. Box 248145 Coral Gables, FL 33124 VISITING ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR/POET, Fall 2008-Spring 2009, one year =20 non-renewable position, to teach two courses in poetry writing each =20 semester and direct MFA theses. MFA in creative writing or =20 equivalent, two years=92 teaching experience at the undergraduate and =20= graduate levels, and three published books of poetry required. =20 Salary competitive. Send letter and CV to Patrick A. McCarthy, =20 Chair, Dept. of English, University of Miami, P.O. Box 248145-4632, =20 Coral Gables, FL 33124. Applications received by December 10th, =20 2007 will be assured consideration. Interviews to be held at AWP. =20 Women and minorities are encouraged to apply. The University of =20 Miami is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:43:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Chicago performances: Susan Howe & Hannah Weiner tribute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi poetics friends....it's getting chilly but there's still some good reasons to plan a chicago visit. cheers, jennifer karmin ---------------------------------------------------- ***THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 15TH AT 7PM*** A Performance by David Grubbs and Susan Howe: "Souls of the Labadie Tract" Bond Chapel, 1050 E. 59th Street Chicago, IL Free and open to the public Souls of the Labadie Tract takes as its starting point a substantial new poem by Howe that will appear in a collection bearing the same title, to be published in 2007 by New Directions. The Labadists were a Utopian Quietest sect that moved from the Netherlands to Cecil County, Maryland in 1684. The community dissolved in 1722. Grubbs' chosen instruments for this piece include two species of khaen, Laotian free-reed mouth organs that at signal moments fluoresce into a full ensemble. A distant VCS3 synthesizer slowly moves to the foreground with what becomes a full-circuited roar. ***SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 17TH AT 7PM*** Silent Teaching: A Tribute to Hannah Weiner Featuring: Mark Booth, Maria Damon, Patrick Durgin, Judith Goldman, Roberto Harrison, Todd Mattei, Jenny Roberts, Jennifer Scappettone, Timothy Yu at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Ave -- Chicago, IL NEW LOCATION close to Grand & Pulaski in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 http://www.spareroomchicago.org BYOB suggested donation $3 doors lock at 7:30pm wheelchair accessible with assistance Experiment #17 Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:50:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: Fwd: school, protest, democracy, petition In-Reply-To: <90F34597-DDBE-4AEF-8C7C-82311B30118F@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks mIEKAL. This is important. Mary mIEKAL aND wrote: (I normally don't fwd online petitions but in this case it seems like anything is better than silence.. The Chi Trib link requires registration. ~mIEKAL) High school students - who are targeted by army recruiters in the halls of their school -- staged a peaceful antiwar protest, and are facing expulsion. A teaching moment. read http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi- mortonprotest_09_webnov09,1,1989534.story?ctrack=3&cset=true http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2007/11/you-may-as-well-break- goddamned-rules.html sign the petition (6500 so far) To: Morton West School District, In Defense of the Morton West Antiwar Students http://www.petitiononline.com/mortonw/petition.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:02:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Scrub! In-Reply-To: <110920071307.6234.47345B9D0002DD910000185A22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF98019C050C0E040D@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Amazing. I grew up in Orlando, Florida, blocks from Edgewater Drive. Cool name: (Edgewater), but the place was incredibly boring back in my day. Disney. Disney. & more Disney. No this: Here’s where you can meet Emily, hear her read, and get a signed copy of Scrub: Wednesday, November 14th @ 7pm - "Soft Focus" at Infusion Tea, 1600 Edgewater Drive, Orlando, 32804. Saturday, November 17th @ 8pm - Emily's Farewell Reading at the Kerouac House, 1418 Clouser Avenue, Orlando, FL 32804. blacksox@ATT.NET wrote: Scrub By Emily Nemens Shady Lane Press November 2007 Wash me, till I am whiter than snow. --Kol Nidre Service, Gates of Repentance Each September, the Jewish calendar begins anew with Rosh Hashanah. It is followed by ten Days of Awe, a period of reflection and repentance. The High Holy Days close with Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. On this day Jews fast and ask God to forgive their sins. Reminded of human suffering by the day’s hunger pangs, they also pardon all who have wronged them in the past year, and pray all those that they have wronged will grant the same forgiveness. The absolution of these worldly conflicts is given the same significance as prayers offered up to heaven, and only after this cycle is complete may the new year begin. Scrub is collection of stories written in and about these holy days. Taken out of the context of Judaism, the stories explore the more universal process of atonement. A homeless man walking across Providence, a pregnant sixteen-year-old cruising around Seattle, an Italian ballet dancer performing on New York’s premier stage, and a boy driving across the country to save his best friend...each has been dealt a shattering blow, and each is seeking the forgiveness that will set them on the path to being whole again. Wrestling with transgression and repentance, the characters of Scrub try to wash away their wrongs by extreme measure, eventually turning to acceptance and finally finding hope. Three of the four stories in Scrub were written during the author’s first month as writer-in-residence at the Kerouac Project of Orlando in September 2007. The fourth, Blue-eyed Apples, is the prologue to her first novel and the piece she submitted to the Kerouac Project’s selection committee. The author illustrated the collection as well. About the Author Emily Nemens is the Fall 2007 writer in residence at the Kerouac House. Always striving to bring visual arts, design, and literature together in a compelling way, she has written and illustrated a graphic novel about the 2004 Madrid train bombings (on-view at www.nemens.com/madrid_comic.html), edited a book for the Education department of The Metropolitan Museum of Art, and an excerpt of her first novel, Blue-eyed Apples, was selected for The L Magazine’s 2007 Literary Upstart Competition. She grew up in Seattle and graduated from Brown University in 2005. She now lives in Brooklyn, where she works as a writer, designer, painter, and occasional musician. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:07:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Musical as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <20071109145053.1F76314880@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit thanks. i thought i was getting sloppy sentimental. guess i got away with it. Christophe Casamassima wrote: I envy painters. I > sometimes long for an escape from language. The eye is so > incredibly precious. Steve, I, too, long for an escape from language. I think this best resonates with why I write poetry... Best, Christophe = Healthcare Leadership Certificates Complete 100% Online in 8 wks - Study Leadership, HR, Ethics and more. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=61d0106feb9d73cf6b75e151bd5adf24 -- Powered By Outblaze __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:49:14 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Readings: 3 Contemporary Turkish Poets Fri 11.16.07 & 4 Contemporary US Poets Sat 11.17.2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1254; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Below is the announcement for the reading on Friday the 16th that has made it possible for Murat Nemet-Nejat to come read in Chapel Hill NC on Saturday the 17th. Two of the three authors featured in the Friday night reading were featured in Murat's amazing anthology of contemporary Turkish poetry, _Eda_. I hope you will be able to join us at Duke's Franklin Center Friday evening for this truly remarkable reading hosted by DUCIS and again at my home on Saturday the 17th for what I hope will be another excellent reading. Here is a map to help you find the Franklin Center: http://tinyurl.com/2j7q2y I have included an announcement for the reading at my own home as well. Please forward. Thank you. Best, Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ph/ First, Friday evening's event: ********************************************** -------- Original Message -------- Subject: A Reading by 3 Contemporary Turkish Poets -- Friday 11.16.07 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:22:28 -0500 From: Dan Smith To: Duke University International Arts , Duke Center for International Studies - Global Studies Please join the *Duke University Center for International Studies* for: /A Reading by 3 Contemporary Turkish Poets/ Lale Müldür Güven Turan and Seyhan Erözçelik *Friday, Nov. 16, 2007 6.30-8.00 pm** * John Hope Franklin Center Room 240 2204 Erwin Road /(parking available across street in Pickens lot) / The poetry of Lale Müldür, Güven Turan and Seyhan Erözçelik scintillates with the tensions and excitement of Istanbul as the fusion point of liberated Eastern Europe and emerging Turkic Republics after the fall of the Soviet Union at the beginning of the new millennium. The three poets visiting Duke University reflect these gigantic historical movements in their poetry. For instance, Lale Müldür, in her poem "Waking to Constantinople," imagines a synthesis between the Byzantine/Christian past of the city, extending back for one thousand years, as well as its Islamic past, calling for a new name for the city. In his poem, "Coffee Grinds," the poet Seyhan Erözçelik brings the Central Asian, Shamanistic tradition of fortune-telling by creating the hopeful, meandering magical cadences of these fortune readings in his poetry. In the filigree delicacy of his poetry, the poet Güven Turan presents a vision of cosmic nature, stripped of any boundaries. For more information about this event, please contact Erdað Göknar at goknar@duke.edu With support from the U.S. Dept. of Education and the Office of the Vice Provost for International Affairs ********************************************** Then, Saturday evening's event: Howdy friends - The evening of Saturday November 17 I will be hosting a poetry reading at my home in Chapel Hill NC (map: http://tinyurl.com/yoganf) to which you are all invited. I am hosting this reading in celebration of the arrival of Murat along with Turkish poets Lale Müldür, Güven Turan and Seyhan Erözçelik. It is my aim to share some of our best poetry with our Turkish visitors. The readers include Murat Nemet-Nejat residing in Hoboken, NJ; originally from Turkey http://google.com/search?q=murat+nemet-nejat Standard Schaefer residing in San Francisco, CA; originally from Texas http://google.com/search?q=standard+schaefer Rodrigo Garcia Lopes residing in Chapel Hill, NC; originally from Londrina, Brazil http://google.com/search?q=rodrigo+garcia+lopes Allyssa Wolf residing in Raleigh, NC; originally from Ohio http://google.com/search?q=allyssa+wolf I'm also planning to screen the film _Satori Uso_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFkkNV77h28) based on a character by Rodrigo Garcia Lopes as well as Julian Semilian's new surrealist short film, _Tear Void Insomnia Mist_. If you don't know him, Julian is an all-around brilliant poet/filmmaker/artist (http://tinyurl.com/yw5bmz) who teaches at the NC School of the Arts in Winston-Salem, NC I will probably open my door to everyone around 9PM and start readings around 10. More details are to follow soon and what is listed here is SUBJECT TO CHANGE. Consider this a save-the-date notice. And don't hesitate to email me should you have any questions for me. Patrick -- Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ph/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:27:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: what do you think of In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Writing etc., etc., is always something of a language battleground. I > have trouble using the word creative > because of the purposes to which it is used by people and in situations > of influence. I have no such trouble in the way you use it here, and > indeed agree with all you say-my word 'understanding' does not, as you > say, say enough. If you are now expanding on your 'poetry, well, you > draw your own conclusions', well, I have no complaints. What Murat took > from it, however, was something different: cutting one's cloth according > to size of audience, and it seemed to me to make you both advocates for > a poetry as practice outside the public sphere. So, accepting your > reservations about the use of the word understanding I still prefer > your definition of prose. I think of audience as through time. Poetry shapes the way imagination moves through language. We breed springboks, people capable of compelling leaps of imagination who trust in themselves to land on their feet. And who trust others to follow that sort of writing in whatever way is appropriate--either with their own leap to a different spot, or something else. That's basically what I mean by 'creative'. It can also mean 'constructive'. When we're asked to construct something. Something worth building. Which we do anyway when reading, but not always with brio or awareness or aspiration. Some people, when they write, take their best leaps when they think no one is watching. Some mean to communicate with other people, yet can seem out of touch with themselves or history or poetry or language or other technologies. I suppose that, in poetry, the public and private channels are both open, wide open to the personal, public and channels of media. > There is a complex and interesting history of poetry/prose distinctions > stretching back behind this thread. I'm much less interested than some > people in the inhouse issue between poetry and fiction, poetry and > criticism which too often comes down to craft issues which are mostly > boring, than in the question of where poetry (and literature, in > general) sits in relation to the writing practices in the public > sphere. Calling those practices 'prose' was confusing, I grant. Or, > rather those craft issues are not boring if they are always thought of > as having a relation like it or not --it could be called a political > relation--to the aforesaid writing practices. > the jig-saw analogy is useful as far as it goes, but you can see (I > hope) I want something more from the distinction. Cheer, Wystan (snarky > person) Yes, public political speech, for instance, is a bulwark of rhetoric, strategy, tactics, the unassailable, the mildly interesting, the perfectly respectable, the patriotic platitude, the fashionably veiled, the kinder gentler machine gun hand. The elliptical compression invites guessing. Which way will the hand strike? Got to catch a ferry. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:49:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Margaret Konkol Subject: Michael Cross Lecture, Monday November 12 "Small Press in the Archive" Lecture Series Comments: To: ENGRAD-LIST@listserv.buffalo.edu, Poetics+ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please join us this Monday, November 12th for "Zukofsky, the Objective and the Small Press," a lecture by Michael Cross. This talk will take place at NOON in The Poetry Collection, 420 Capen. _The Small Press in the Archive Lecture Series_ dedicates itself to the study of poetry outside the traditional literary historical plot. The lectures in this series draw on materials in The Poetry Collection, at SUNY Buffalo in order to explore community/discourse formations, the status of ephemera and the making of genre, the conditions of literary production, transatlantic cross-pollinations in and between specific magazines, the careers of poets, the role of book art, and how the little magazine functions in the making of the avant-garde. This event is funded by the Mildred Lockwood Lacey Fund for Poetry/The Poetry Collection and is free and open to the public. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:45:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: Stein - Malcolm - Ozick = Stein Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed This paragraph, from Philip Hensher reviews Two Lives: Gertrude and =20 Alice by Janet Malcolm, from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=3D/arts/2007/10/25/=20 bomalc120.xml =93There is, too, the vexed question of how Stein and Toklas managed to =20= stay alive in Vichy France, and their attitude to their =20 Jewishness--Toklas converted to Christianity in old age.=A0It seems to =20= enrage Malcolm that Stein wasn't more interested in her ethnic =20 identity.=94 especially that last sentence, reminded me of a short essay that =20 appeared in the New York Times Magazine, November 24, 1996, by Cynthia =20= Ozick entitled =93A Prophet of Modernism:=A0Gertrude Stein.=94=A0In it, = Ozick =20 writes of the =93copycat Cubist=94:=A0=93She intended to seize and = personify =20 modernism itself, and she succeeded.=A0Consequently, we cannot imagine =20= Gertrude Stein without Picasso.=A0Like him, she wanted to invent =20 Cubism--not in oils but in words.=A0She worked to subtract plain meaning = =20 from English prose.=A0Whether she was a charlatan or a philosopher, it = is =20 even now hard to say.=94=A0=93No one now reads Gertrude Stein, though a = few =20 of her titles have lives of their own:=A0=91Four Saints in Three Acts,=92 = =20 which Virgil Thomson made into an opera; =91The Autobiography of Alice = B. =20 Toklas,=92 written by Gertrude Stein about Gertrude Stein.=94=A0=93During = the =20 German occupation of Paris, when Jews were being hunted by the =20 thousands, these two Jewish women fled to obscurity in the countryside; =20= their Montparnasse flat, with its paintings, was left unmolested.=A0And =20= when Gertrude Stein died in 1946, at 72, her name was a household word =20= (or quip), her mannish head an avant-garde image, and she had become =20 one with the movement she touted.=94=A0=93At the close of its century of = =20 brilliance and triumph, modernism begins now to look a little =20 old-fashioned, even a bit stale or exhausted, and certainly =20 conventional--but what is fresher, and sassier, and more enchantingly =20= silly than =91A rose is a rose is a rose. ...=92?=A0This endearing, = enduring, =20 durable and derisible chant of a copycat Cubist is almost all that is =20= left of Gertrude Stein.=94=A0 posted by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino=A0 http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/ e=B7 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:53:09 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: fool that i am, Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ive started a blog for above/ground press; folk keep asking me for a web address for the thing, & now i have one! http://www.abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/ when i become less busy (sometime around the year 2054) ill start putting up more content; maybe rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:04:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Re: Scrub! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes I am a transplant and in the past two years have tried to come out of the shadow of the Mouse.(no easy task) This was Jack's town first. There is a great deal of very talented people in Orlando. Adam Tritt was one of my featured people a few months back--an intelligent and witty poet. Mark Salerno will be stopping by on his book tour in March. This is an open call to anyone--coming here on vacation. let me know ahead and we can feature you. Would love to expose this area to visual poetics---IT"S TIME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:48:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just met sheila she's great don't consider her a lang po and she didn't mention she played On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:22:35 -0500 Vernon Frazer writes: > Actually, Steve, a pretty fair number of Language poets are > accomplished > musicians. Sheila E. Murphy and Peter Ganick come to mind > immediately. > > Vernon > http://vernonfrazer.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 2:10 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: "musical" as descriptive of poetry > > langpos want to avoid musicality in most cases - substitute it with > dull > humor and non-sequiter word play flatnesses > > > hey i'll be in frisco area dec 6-11 > looking for a reading on 9th or 10th any ideas out there? > > On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:41:46 +0000 Barry Schwabsky > writes: > > In truth, I agree. In fact I would be more likely to cite Cash as > an > > example of what I call musicality than Sarah Vaughan--because he > > gives it in something like a purer state. (To advert to an earlier > > > discussion, this is somehow related to my feeling that there is as > > > much torque in poem by Philip Larkin as in one by any given > Language > > poet.) And yet, and yet...as genres, jazz still seems more > "musical" > > to me than country, the reason being somehow tied to the fact that > > > if, in a certain song, Cash felt the need to do something like > scat > > singing, to push his interpretation into some more abstract > area--if > > he could even have conceived of that, wouldn't his producer have > > yelled "cut!" or his backup musicians not understood how to follow > > > him? There seems to be a different kind of constraint in this > genre > > on how an artist could express his musicality. What do you think? > > > > Another word I have a somewhat confused, "know it when I see it > > > but can't define it" adhesion is radicality. > > > > But these days, I take as my touchstones for radicality almost > any > > solo recording by Art Tatum, or Richard Hell's singing on his > early > > records. > > > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > Barry, this is interesting, but I think your examples actually > > prove > > my point. > > Yes, Sarah Vaughan, when she's singing phonemes or 'scat' might > play > > > > her vocal instrument much more like Charlie Parker than Cash > does, > > But there are many levels of communication (even on a strictly > vocal > > > > level) in Cash "abstracted from any overt content" as well. > > The "abstract" might be more obvious in Vaughan, because on first > > > listen the listener may not be as "distracted" by the alleged > "overt > > > > content" > > as they could be in Johnny Cash, but the more one listens to Cash, > > > the more one can hear how the delivery (even if his vocal palatte > > may not be as "virtuoso" by certain standards), even on a strictly > > > vocal level, is not a mere transparent conveying of the story or > > persona. > > > > Of course, it's hard to abstract the mere vocal elements of either > > > Cash or Vaughan (or of hip hop and country or vocal-jazz in > general) > > > > from the > > other instruments. Even if one could make the claim that Cash's > > voice > > is "less musical" than Vaughan's (which I'm not willing to claim), > > > it > > would > > be even harder to claim that Cash's sound (with The Tennessee Two > or > > > > Three) is "less musical." there's that flat top box that gets > rhythm > > > > while it gets the blues (even the words of those early hits of his > > > point away from the 'persona' or 'story'). > > Likewise, I think if you asked many people in hip-hop, it's about > > > the > > beats as much as the words and the voice. > > And "beats" (in hip hop parlance) is also texture, and to some > > extent > > melody, as much as rhythm. > > One could argue that country and rhythm and blues (both generally > > > from the U.S. southland) emphasized immediacy of rhythmic > backbeat, > > but we may all have our preferred styles, but I still don't see > how > > one is less "musical" than the other. > > > > Chris > > > > On Nov 7, 2007, at 5:11 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > > > I'm generally with you, Chris, but there is a possible > non-biased > > > way to understand how some forms of music might be less > "musical" > > > than others--for instance, I would hazard to say that in country > > > > and hip-hop, the presentation of the words, and of the story or > > > > persona that those words embody, tends to take precedence, and > in > > > that sense they could be called "less musical" than some other > > > forms. If you think Sarah Vaughan is a great singer, you have to > > > > have different reasons behind this judgement than you would if > you > > > > > think Johnny Cash is a great singer--in her case, you have to > > > accept some kind of more abstract communication of the musical > > > content of the syllables she is singing, somewhat abstracted > from > > > any overt content they might have. > > > > > > Chris Stroffolino wrote: For me, there > > > can be a shorthand usefulness to the term on a specific > > > ("technical" or "nuts and botls") level.... > > > > > > assonance, alliteration, internal rhymes, so-called 'masculine' > > > and > > > 'feminine' line endings, > > > rhythmic push and pull, even in the most 'prosey' of poetry, or > > > poetry conceived of, or operating in a context, or largely on > the > > > page, and not even necessarily uttered verbally, or read > silently > > so > > > that one feels the poem physically (in the sense of lips, > throat, > > as > > > much as 'eye' or 'ear')----these can all be considered aspects > of > > the > > > poem's 'music.' > > > So even though I'm tempted to conclude that "music" is only an > > > analogy or metaphor when applied to poetry not literally sung > (to, > > or > > > with, a lyre or handclap, bongo-esque accompaniment), I don't > mind > > > using that term as a way of considering the feeling (or > > > connotational) aspects of any piece of writing > > > (as in "the music of the New York Times Op Ed page," even > > > but also "Music is feeling, then, not sound" or "unheard sounds > > > are > > > sweeter," etc). > > > > > > But, I do think the term "music," like the term "ear," can be > (and > > > often is), oh I'll say, "abused," when applied more generally. > > > When, for instance, "music" is opposed to "meaning," as it often > > > is. > > > Some critics speak in terms of a continuum. Music on one side, > and > > > meaning on the other. Poet X Or Poem M is valued as "musical" > > however > > > abhorrent, or even lacking, in "meaning" he or she or it is. > > > Poem N or Poet Y, by contrast, is considered to be much stronger > > > in > > > terms of "logopiea" ("dance of the intellect," though the word > > > 'dance' alludes to music as well), but weaker in terms of > > > "melopiea" (I may be spelling these wrong, because of my spell > > check). > > > And then somewhere "in between" is the perfect balance, a poem > O, > > > that seems more meaningful because it is more musical, or that > > seems > > > more musical because it seems more meaningful. > > > > > > Yet, when one says one poem is more Musical than another poem, > the > > > term becomes less descriptive and much more subjective and > > judgmental. > > > It's one thing to say that one appreciates a certain kind of > > "music" > > > over another kind of music, categorically. > > > It's certainly valid to say "I categorically appreciate opera > over > > > punk music" (or vice versa) > > > It's another (and in my opinion less valid) thing to say "Opera > is > > > music, punk is not" (or vice versa)-- > > > Yet I feel this is often how the term "music" (and also the > term > > > "ear"---as in "tin ear") is used in discussions of poetry. > > > I may not be moved or transported by the 'music' of Auden, Pound > > > or > > > Robert Duncan as much as I am by Robert Creeley, Laura Riding, > or > > > Pessoa (in Chris Daniels translation at least), for instance, > > > but I won't therefore make the claim that Auden, Duncan or Pound > > > are > > > thereby less 'musical' than the others (as is too often done), > > > and though I tend to generally prefer punk to opera, there's > > > definitely some opera I prefer to some punk.... > > > > > > Sorry if this seems heavy handed, and not 'musical' enough > > > (ah, but I can love the music of the essay, letter and > > manifesto...) > > > Nor is it intended to sound relativistic. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:59 PM, wil Hallgren wrote: > > > > > >> I agree that using "music" in connection with poetry is > > >> distracting. Shall we attempt to replace "musical" with > > "cadenced" > > >> -- (from Webster's "cadence" (n.) #'s 3 & 4 -- "inflection or > > >> modulation in tone" -- ""flow of rhythm"). > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ---- > > >> From: angela vasquez-giroux > > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 12:18:29 PM > > >> Subject: Re: what do you think of/additional horse shit/ with > > >> respect... > > >> > > >> i hate to be a jerk, but isn't "musical" one of those non- > > >> descriptive words > > >> masquerading as descriptive? saying poetry is musical is as > > >> meaningless as > > >> calling it "interesting" or "organic". > > >> > > >> poetry is (in my mind) all about precision. musical doesn't do > > > the > > >> job. we > > >> can talk about rhythm, cadence, alliteration, etc. > > >> > > >> perhaps i've had too much coffee already. > > >> > > >> On 11/6/07, steve russell > > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> i say this with some degree of deference: > > >>> > > >>> isn't poetry more musical? poets count. > > >>> > > >>> novelist seldom speak in such minimal, linguistic terms. > > >>> when i read a joyce carol oates essay, she refers to > character, > > >>> plot. > > >>> the rest is mostly academic horse shit to working writers. > > >>> > > >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: Jason (1) for my > > >>> money, the > > >>> impulse to collapse distinctions is also the impulse to > > >>> replace them with different distinctions (2) it was tomas's > > musing > > >>> about > > >>> meaning that drove > > >>> me to respond in the first place and (3) I am really glad to > > hear > > >>> you have > > >>> found some better > > >>> philosophies and aesthetics than .... I'm always on the > lookout > > >>> myself.... > > >>> Anyway, I don't find > > >>> the sentence, paragraph distinction of much use. What about > > >>> stanzas then? > > >>> Or Faulkner. > > >>> But then we began, not with a distinction between poetry and > > >>> fiction at > > >>> all, but between poetry and > > >>> expository prose. Cheers, Wystan > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ________________________________ > > >>> > > >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jason > Quackenbush > > >>> Sent: Tue 6/11/2007 3:12 p.m. > > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> there's a difference between not liking where a distinction > is > > >>> drawn and > > >>> making a case for drawing no distinction at all. i personally > am > > > > >>> with > > >>> Elizabeth in the feeling that I've personally had enough of > this > > > > >>> post > > >>> structuralist impulse toward collapsing distinctions. 1.) > > >>> distinctions > > >>> are useful for all sorts of things & 2.) frankly criticism > > musing > > >>> about > > >>> the nature of meaning bores me to tears, doesn't seem to > > >>> generative or > > >>> useful, and frankly is starting to look sort of self-indulgent > > > and > > >>> lazy > > >>> & 3.) anyway, there are better philosophies and aesthetics > than > > the > > >>> stuff that formed the foundations of critical theory and > > cultural > > >>> studies over the last 25 years or so. I'd like to say that > > poetry > > >>> has > > >>> line breaks and prose doesn't, but there are too many prose > > poets > > >>> and > > >>> flash fictionaries that have muddied that water up, so we're > > left > > >>> with > > >>> something that is fundamentally a structural issue in that it > > >>> relates to > > >>> the architecture of language arts, but against which there's > > been > > >>> such > > >>> an assault for no apparently good reason that we no longer > have > > a > > >>> way to > > >>> draw a line where one is useful. > > >>> > > >>> perhaps more to the point is the reading angle, but for me, > > >>> honestly, my > > >>> reading habits aren't that different for poetry or for prose. > I > > find > > >>> Ezra Pound as absorbing as I find Philip K. Dick, and respond > to > > > > >>> them > > >>> both in similar ways albeit for different reasons. which is > why > > >>> for me, > > >>> the impulse is to draw the distinction from a compositional > > point of > > >>> view. And that works for me, and not only that, but i find it > > >>> works also > > >>> when I'm reading other people as well. If I read something > about > > >>> "poetry" and I subsitute "language art composed at the level > of > > the > > >>> sentence" it works and can makes sense of what is being said, > > > just > > >>> as if > > >>> I read something aobut "prose" and substitute "language art > > >>> composed at > > >>> the level of the paragraph." I think this distinction makes > > sense > > >>> because it relates directly to what people actually do, as > well > > >>> as to > > >>> the nature of information being conveyed by the two different > > >>> species. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Wystan Curnow wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Elizabeth, perhaps another distinction I'd rather not draw is > > > that > > >>>> between the 'state of literature' and 'external > circumstances'. > > You > > >>>> might say just so long as prose rules the world blurring its > > >>>> boundaries > > >>>> with poetry remains worth doing. I don't go for the idea that > > > >>>> poetry > > >>>> creates meaning, prose conveys it. All writing does both to > > such an > > >>>> extent I'd want to hold all writers to account for doing > both. > > I > > >>>> don't > > >>>> know whether Tomas meant that writing that creates meaning, > IS > > >>>> poetry > > >>>> (whether we take it to be poetry or prose, like on the page > or > > in a > > >>>> Creative Writing class on poetry) or that what we take to be > > > poetry > > >>>> CREATES MEANING. Either way, I'm against it. > > >>>> I take your point about reading, and its relation to time > > >>>> management and > > >>>> personal entertainment value, what what other purposes are > > being > > >>>> served? > > >>>> Cheers, Wystan > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: UB Poetics discussion group > > >>>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > >>>> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Switaj > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2007 2:34 a.m. > > >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >>>> Subject: Re: what do you think of > > >>>> > > >>>> Wystan, playing into the hands of what? When you say "the > age" > > >>>> do you > > >>>> refer to the state of literature or to external > circumstances? > > If > > >>>> the > > >>>> former, I suppose one could argue, if they were so inclined, > > > that > > >>>> enough > > >>>> blurring of the boundaries has happened for it to be useful > to > > >>>> attempt > > >>>> to redraw them (if only as an experiment). > > >>>> > > >>>> For me, the primary difference between poetry and prose is > not > > in > > >>>> how I > > >>>> write them (certain types of prose excepted) but in how I > read > > >>>> them. My > > >>>> reading of poetry is much slower and deliberate to the point > > >>>> where I've > > >>>> even been known to say that I read prose and think about > poetry. > > >>>> Exceptions to this are James Joyce and crappy poetry, which > is > > to > > >>>> say > > >>>> great prose and crappy poetry, though that says much more > about > > my > > >>>> personal preferences and biases than anything else, of > course. > > >>>> > > >>>> Elizabeth Kate Switaj > > >>>> www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On 11/5/07, Wystan Curnow wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Come to think of it, the question is why, at this juncture, > > > >>>>> seek to > > >>>>> distinguish the two? A certain playing into the hands > results > > from > > >>>>> the effort. The age requires rather that they be confused > to > > >>>>> > > >>>> advantage. > > >>>> > > >>>>> Wystan > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> __________________________________________________ > > >>> Do You Yahoo!? > > >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around > > >>> http://mail.yahoo.com > > >>> > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:55:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Nov 10: Helen Adam event @ Bowery Poetry Club MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hello all...kristin prevallet asked me to forward this to the list. looks like a great nyc event. happy helen adam praise day, jennifer karmin ----------------------------------------------------- Hi Poetics List, I'm lurking behind the scenes here, but thanks so much to Stephen Vincent for the rave review of the San Francisco Helen Adam hootananny. If any of you missed the event in SF because you live in NY, perhaps you could come tomorrow for the Helen Adam Praise Day at the Bowery Poetry Club. Here's the info: BOWERY ARTS AND SCIENCE PRESENTS Helen Adam's Praise Day in celebration of A Helen Adam Reader Edited with notes and an introduction by Kristin Prevallet (published by the National Poetry Foundation) Saturday November 10, 2007 Bowery Poetry Club, 6-8 pm Featuring musical and spoken word interpretations of Helen Adam ballads by: Bob Holman and Vito Ricci A brief view of the Hudson (Ann Enzminger, Nicholas Nace, Joel Herzig) Lee Ann Brown Lisa Jarnot Nada Gordon Joe Maynard and the Musties The Bowery Poetry Club Bowery between Bleeker and Houston, NYC (following the 4pm Segue reading with Sean Cole and Brandon Downing) -- Kristin Prevallet http://www.kayvallet.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:23:37 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Jones Subject: Re: Musical as descriptive of poetry In-Reply-To: <901900.52851.qm@web52401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline here's one from our old pal Carl Maria Von Weber: The poet and composer are so blended one into the other that it would be ridiculous to suppose the latter could achieve anything worthwhile without the former. On Nov 9, 2007 9:07 PM, steve russell wrote: > thanks. i thought i was getting sloppy sentimental. guess i got away with it. > > Christophe Casamassima wrote: I envy painters. I > > > sometimes long for an escape from language. The eye is so > > incredibly precious. > > > Steve, > > I, too, long for an escape from language. I think this best resonates with why I write poetry... > > Best, > > Christophe > > = > Healthcare Leadership Certificates > Complete 100% Online in 8 wks - Study Leadership, HR, Ethics and more. > http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=61d0106feb9d73cf6b75e151bd5adf24 > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:40:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: [Fwd: Fw: News Alert: Norman Mailer Is Dead at Age 84] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070307040000000609030100" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070307040000000609030100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------070307040000000609030100 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Fw: News Alert: Norman Mailer Is Dead at Age 84.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Fw: News Alert: Norman Mailer Is Dead at Age 84.eml" Return-Path: X-Original-To: damon001@sapphire.tc.umn.edu Delivered-To: damon001@sapphire.tc.umn.edu Received: from mta-w1.tc.umn.edu (mta-w1.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.22]) by sapphire.tc.umn.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FFD2FC9 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:52:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp05.bis.na.blackberry.com (smtp05.bis.na.blackberry.com [216.9.248.52]) by mta-w1.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:52:50 -0600 (CST) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] smtp05.bis.na.blackberry.com [216.9.248.52] #+NR (I,-) X-Umn-Report-As-Spam: Received: from bda013.bis.na.blackberry.com (bda013.bisx.prod.on.blackberry [172.20.224.73]) by srs.bis.na.blackberry.com (8.13.7 TEAMON/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lAADqel5031958 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:52:40 GMT Received: from bda013-cell00.bisx.prod.on.blackberry (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by bda013.bis.na.blackberry.com (8.13.4 TEAMON/8.13.4) with ESMTP id lAADqdf5010007 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:52:39 GMT X-rim-org-msg-ref-id: 1851271450 Message-ID: <1851271450-1194702758-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2136580782-@bxe106.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Reply-To: hreh0001@umn.edu X-Priority: Normal Sensitivity: Normal Importance: Normal To: "Maria Damon" Subject: Fw: News Alert: Norman Mailer Is Dead at Age 84 From: hreh0001@umn.edu Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:51:54 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: SRS0=xENGJh=QD=umn.edu=hreh0001@srs.bis.na.blackberry.com DQotLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBOWVRpbWVzIGNvbSBOZXdzIEFs ZXJ0DQpTZW5kZXI6IHR4dF9uZXdzYWxlcnRzQE1TMS5MR0EyLk5ZVElNRVMuQ09NDQpUbzogQS4g U2FyYWggSHJlaGENClJlcGx5VG86IG55dGRpcmVjdEBueXRpbWVzLmNvbQ0KU2VudDogTm92IDEw LCAyMDA3IDk6MDggQU0NClN1YmplY3Q6IE5ld3MgQWxlcnQ6IE5vcm1hbiBNYWlsZXIgSXMgRGVh ZCBhdCBBZ2UgODQNCg0KQnJlYWtpbmcgTmV3cyBBbGVydA0KVGhlIE5ldyBZb3JrIFRpbWVzDQpT YXR1cmRheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMTAsIDIwMDcgLS0gODowNiBBTSBFVA0KLS0tLS0NCg0KTm9ybWFu IE1haWxlciBJcyBEZWFkIGF0IEFnZSA4NA0KDQpOb3JtYW4gTWFpbGVyLCB0aGUgdHdvLXRpbWUg UHVsaXR6ZXIgUHJpemUgd2lubmVyIHdobyB3YXMgYQ0KbWFqb3IgcHJlc2VuY2UgaW4gQW1lcmlj YW4gbGl0ZXJhdHVyZSBmb3Igb3ZlciBzZXZlbiBkZWNhZGVzLA0KZGllZCBvZiByZW5hbCBmYWls dXJlIGVhcmx5IFNhdHVyZGF5LCBoaXMgbGl0ZXJhcnkgZXhlY3V0b3INCnNhaWQuIEhlIHdhcyA4 NC4NCg0KTWFpbGVyIGRpZWQgYXQgTW91bnQgU2luYWkgSG9zcGl0YWwsIHNhaWQgSi4gTWljaGFl bCBMZW5ub24sDQp3aG8gaXMgYWxzbyB0aGUgYXV0aG9yJ3Mgb2ZmaWNpYWwgYmlvZ3JhcGhlci4N Cg0KUmVhZCBNb3JlOg0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ueXRpbWVzLmNvbS8/ZW1jPW5hDQoNCi0tLS0tDQpW aXNpdCBvdXIgbW9iaWxlIHNpdGUgZm9yIHRoZSBsYXRlc3QgbmV3czoNCmh0dHA6Ly9tLm55dGlt ZXMuY29tDQotLS0tLQ0KDQpBYm91dCBUaGlzIEUtTWFpbA0KWW91IHJlY2VpdmVkIHRoaXMgbWVz c2FnZSBiZWNhdXNlIHlvdSBhcmUgc2lnbmVkIHVwIHRvIHJlY2VpdmUgQnJlYWtpbmcgTmV3cw0K QWxlcnRzIGZyb20gTllUaW1lcy5jb20uDQoNClRvIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlLCBjaGFuZ2UgeW91ciBl LW1haWwgYWRkcmVzcyBvciB0byBzaWduIHVwIGZvciBkYWlseSBoZWFkbGluZXMNCm9yIG90aGVy IG5ld3NsZXR0ZXJzLCBnbyB0bzoNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vZW1haWwNCg0KTllU aW1lcy5jb20NCjYyMCBFaWdodGggQXZlLg0KTmV3IFlvcmssIE5ZIDEwMDE4DQoNCkNvcHlyaWdo dCAyMDA3IFRoZSBOZXcgWW9yayBUaW1lcyBDb21wYW55DQoNCg0KDQoNClNlbnQgdmlhIEJsYWNr QmVycnkgYnkgQVQmVA== --------------070307040000000609030100-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 06:49:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Norman Mailer, Outspoken Novelist, Dies at 84 - New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/10/books/11mailer.html?em&ex=1194843600&en=9489488b3e4ab14e&ei=5087%0A--- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:56:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Just Announced: Books 2 & 3 of Dolores Dorantes by Dolores Dorantes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **New Poetry from Kenning Editions and Counterpath Press** SEXOPUROSEXOVELOZ and SEPTIEMBRE Dorantes, Dolores $14.95 / PA / 144pp. Kenning Editions/Counterpath Press 2007 978-0-9767364-2-4 Poetry. Latino/Latina Studies. Translated from the Spanish by Jen Hofer. sexoPUROsexoVELOZ and SEPTIEMBRE is a bilingual edition of books two and three of the authors lifelong project entitled Dolores Dorantes. Dorantes was born in Cordoba, Veracruz in 1973, and has lived in Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua for the past twenty years. She has published four book-length works of poetry in Mexico, and is a founding member of the border arts collective Compa??a Frugal (The Frugal Company), which counts among its activities publication of the monthly poetry broadside series Hoja Frugal, printed in editions of 4,000 and distributed free throughout Mexico. http://www.spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=9780976736424 See also www.kenningeditions.com for subscription and ordering options,as well as updates on readings and other events. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 21:21:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: [collagepoetry] call for small poems Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > VERY SMALL POEMS WANTED > > Since its first issue in 1972, Clown War and its successor CLWN WR =20 > have frequently > published very small poems in both regular and special small poem =20 > issues. Among the > writers who have contributed small poems to Clown War/CLWN WR are =20 > Cid Corman, Ted > Berrigan, F.A. Nettelbeck, Ray DiPalma, Bruce Andrews, Lyn =20 > Hejinian, Eileen Myles, Bob > Holman, Keith Abbott, Dave Morice, Joel Dailey, Nathan Whiting, =20 > Brian McInerney, Charles > Bernstein, Alex Caldiero and many others. We have also published =20 > very small visual poems > by David Cole, John M. Bennett, Scott Helmes, M. Kasper, Hannah =20 > Weiner, Roy Arenella and > others. > > After a long hibernation CLWN WR is once again starting a series of =20= > special issues devoted > to the very small poem in all of its manifestations. We invite =20 > small poems no larger than > 50 words (but prefer works much smaller) that will fit comfortably =20 > on a 5 =BD by 4 =BC inch > page. We also invite visual poems no larger than 3 by 4 inches =20 > actual size. We are > particularly interested in the experimental, the minimal, and the =20 > highly compressed, in > prose poems, and in works that touch the sense of wonder. We have =20 > little interest in haiku. > Pieces will be judged both on their own merit, and on their ability =20= > to coexist with the other > small poems with which they will be sharing space. > > Issues will be fairly ephemeral, usually 32-48 pages, with a press =20 > run of around 200 > copies. CLWN WR will not be sold, but will be distributed to a =20 > select list of poets, artists, > editors and others who I want to receive it. Each contributor will =20 > be given several copies of > the issue in which they appear. In order to reach more readers =20 > current issues will also be > archived on the CLWN WR web-site which is currently being built. > > Please send works (with SASE) to: > > > Bob Heman, ed. > CLWN WR > P.O. Box 2165 > Church St. Station > New York, NY 10008-2165 > USA > > E-mail submissions will not be considered (except from those who =20 > live outside the United > States), but queries, comments, etc. can be sent to me at: =20 > editor@clwnwr.org > > Please spread the word. > > http://www.clwnwr.org/SubmissionGuide.htm > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:07:54 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Tinfish Press in the northwest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tinfish Press authors will be appearing at Evergreen State University in Olympia, Washington on November 12, and at Pacific University in Forest Grove, Oregon on November 14 and 15. Here are details. Please come if you're in the area! Reading and talk at Evergreen State University: the reading is on November 12th at 7PM, in Seminar 2 E1105, The Evergreen State College. Readers: Deborah Meadows and Susan M. Schultz. Artists: Gaye Chan and Lian Litvin. Reading at Pacific University (Lisa Linn Kanae, Deborah Meadows, Tiare Picard, Craig Perez Santos, Lissa Wolsak, and Susan M. Schultz) http://www.pacificu.edu/news/detail.cfm?NEWS_ID=3962&CATEGORY_ID=1 Designer talk at Pacific U (Gaye Chan and Lian Litvin): http://www.pacificu.edu/calendar/detail.cfm?CALENDAR_ID=3012&CATEGORY_ID=8 aloha, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:32:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Stempleman Subject: Ted Berrigan quote In-Reply-To: <04F5BEAF-0A0B-4916-8DC4-7C08FC08DD08@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone know where Ted Berrigan said something to the effect of "When I find= a word isn't working in a poem, I try using its opposite. I know this is a= limitation..." =20 Thanks. =20 Jordan=20 _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:35:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Norman Mailer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines about Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics stance; where does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows upon Grace Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from Armies of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that anthology of postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. Probably certain professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler followed us past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the information that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. When? we asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes were so serious -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where I live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual property chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or Updike. AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:30:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: place to crash in ny? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello. I'm giving a reading at the Bowery Poetry Club on Saturday, = December 29, and would greatly appreciate if someone could offer a place = to stay for three nights (12/29 - 1/1). I know it's an odd time, = holidays and all, but if someone could help me out it would be greatly = appreciated. =20 A copy of my new book Codes of Public Sleep, an original collage, and = (best of all) a nice bottle of wine for the host . . . =20 Please backchannel. Many thanks in advance! =20 Camille =20 Camille Martin 156 Brandon Avenue #403 Toronto, ON M6H 2E4 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:22:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Sakkis Subject: Brandon Brown's new Duration chapbook Kidnapped... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline is now live at... http://www.durationpress.com/bookstore/ebooks/brown/brown.pdf hellow listserv, i'm John Sakkis, i'm new around here... xo-j ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:50:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: 11/14: denver: Julie Carr & Joseph Lease **** 11/15: Laf ayette: Lease & Gordon=?windows-1256?Q?=FE?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Events in CO: Wednesday, Nov 14, 2007 Copper Nickel hosts Julie Carr & Joseph Lease @ 8:00 PM at CU Denver in the Tivoli, room 640 Here is a map:http://courses.cudenver.edu/graphics/maps/AurariaMap_TV.gif Thursday, November 15Many Mountains Moving Literary Journal will host a reading by Noah Eli Gordon and Joseph Lease @ 7:00 p.m. at Cannon Mines Coffee in Lafayette. Open mike will follow featured readers. For more details visit www.mmminc.org or contact Barbara Sorensen at woc@indra.com or 303-823-5149. Also: on November 29th @ 8pm, Sara Veglahn & I will host a reading at our house featuring: Dorothea Lasky, Maureen Owen, Dan Beachy-Quick (drop me an email for info) Julie Carr's first book, Mead: An Epithalamion, won the University of Georgia Press's contemporary poetry prize for 2004. Her second collection, Equivocal, was recently published by Alice James Books. Her poems have appeared in such journals as Volt, American Letters and Commentary, Pool, Verse, The Iowa Review, Boston Review, and TriQuarterly. She lives in Denver and teaches at the University of Colorado, Boulder. Noah Eli Gordon is the author of six books, three of which were published this year: Novel Pictorial Noise (Harper Perennial, 2007; selected by John Ashbery for the National Poetry Series), Figures for a Darkroom Voice (Tarpaulin Sky 2007; in collaboration with poet Joshua Marie Wilkinson and artist Noah Saterstrom) and A Fiddle Pulled from the Throat of a Sparrow (New Issues 2007). Joseph Lease's critically acclaimed books of poetry include Broken World (Coffee House Press, 2007) and Human Rights (Zoland Books, 1998). His poem ''Broken World' (For James Assatly)' was selected for The Best American Poetry 2002 (Scribner, 2002). Joseph's poems have been featured on National Public Radio and published in Boston Review, Chain, Colorado Review, Denver Quarterly, Fence, and elsewhere. He lives in California and teaches at the California College of the Arts. _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:05:39 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: the latest at Behind the Lines Poetry blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit October postings at Behind the Lines Poetry, for your reading pleasure: Further Thoughts on Guided by Voices' "Echoes Myron... K.Silem Mohammad's "Chicks Don't Actually Dig War"... Guided by Voices' "I Am A Scientist"/Why I'm Not A... Vahan Tekeyan's "Forgetting"/Remembering the Armenian... Utopian Poetic Statement from the 1960s That Will ... David-Baptiste Chirot's "Dead See Scrawls" David-Baptiste Chirot's "To Absorb Darkness Until ... "One Voice"/Why Peace is Possible in the Middle Ea... Even Steph(v)en on the War Corpse Watching by Sarith Peou "Soldiers of Conscience" Pavement's "Loretta's Scars"/File Under You Had to Be There Knowing Thy Enemy: The Iraqi Insurgency Leonard Schwartz's Language as Responsibility Russian Metro in the Morning Hours As Country Music Goes, So Goes the War Sidewalk Blogger's Information Series/What the War... Daniel Johnston's "True Love Will Find You in the ... Elizabeth Samet's "In the Valley of the Shadow"/Te... Paul Lauritzen's Door/The Limits of Language, the ... This War's a Corn Maze (with No Way Out) Tutu's Disinvitation Revoked/We Return To Our Sens... Archbishop Desmond Tutu Denied From Speaking at Un... Robert Pinsky's "Poem of Disconnected Parts" Sidewalk Blogger At It Again Brian Turner about His War Poetry, in the New York... Michael Dumanis' reading: a postmortem "Haters" by Tania Cuevas-Martinez and Lubna Khalid... "The Good War and Those Who Refused to Fight It" CA Conrad's Ann Coulter & Louise Gluck The Car Wreck of War Michael Dumanis' "The Cease-Fire" Ted Leo's "Sons of Cain"/For Those We've Left to F... Peace out, Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:39:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mailer's book on the Frazier/Ali fight was excellent. He stabbed his wife ( # 3 or 4 ) during the sixties, before the '68 Democratic convention in Chicago. I saw him 5 years ago at the National Press Club. I asked him a question about Gary Gilmore & Jack Henry Abbott that made him squirm. In case you don't remember, Jack Henry Abbot is the author of the prison memoir "In The Belly of The Beast." Abbott stabbed and killed a waiter in New York. I read "Armies of the Night" in college. I read a bunch of Mailer in college. My enthusiasm for him has waned since then, but the guy had his moments. Anyone interested in NASA should check out "Of Fire On The Moon." Ann Bogle wrote: Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines about Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics stance; where does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows upon Grace Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from Armies of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that anthology of postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. Probably certain professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler followed us past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the information that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. When? we asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes were so serious -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where I live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual property chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or Updike. AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:00:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Cross Subject: Reminder: Taylor Brady and Rob Halpern Book Launch! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those in and around the San Francisco Bay Area: Taylor Brady and Rob Halpern will be launching their collaboration for Atticus/Finch, _Snow Sensitive Skin_, tomorrow night (Sunday) at 7pm at New Yipes. Don't miss it! Taylor Brady/Rob Halpern Garrett Caples Gregg Biermann @ New Yipes Sunday, Nov. 11, 7pm 416 25th St Oakland @ Broadway Best, Michael ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage broke up two years later. All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 grandchildren. « Previous Page 1 2 3 4 Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage broke up two years later. All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 grandchildren. « Previous Page 1 2 3 4 Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage broke up two years later. All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 grandchildren. « Previous Page 1 2 3 4 Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage broke up two years later. All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 grandchildren. « Previous Page 1 2 3 4 Next Ann Bogle wrote: Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines about Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics stance; where does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows upon Grace Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from Armies of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that anthology of postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. Probably certain professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler followed us past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the information that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. When? we asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes were so serious -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where I live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual property chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or Updike. AMB ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:43:44 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Sidewalk (anti-war) blog for the week MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=15490&l=e0c18&id=654553661 Another week of putting signs on chain link fences on windward O`ahu, and roadside memorials to the dead in the Iraq war. Those with the number of Iraqi dead disappear more quickly than those with only the number of Americans killed. Sad to say. One Impeach sign disappeared before it could be photographed. The others are here. Simply click to enlarge the photograph and read its story. No signs next week; am off to the west coast for some literary events. Feel free to put some up on fences yourselves! aloha, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:32:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Without causes and truths, without facts and others. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed in memoriam Without causes and truths, without facts and others. (continuation of a philosophical thread) Events without causes: Flying saucers. Dwarf citings. Alien abductions. Hurricanes and other chaotic phenomena. Cryptozoological species sight- ings. Britney Spears. Serial killings. Sniper fire. Or what is a cause. Or is it? Or the epistemology and ontology of causes. Or linkages and ghosts. Events without truth: Battle casualties. Enumerations from one or another side. Enumerations from witnesses. From engaged witnesses. From embedded witnesses. From satellites. From a distance. Abu Gharayb. Redactions. Contradictions. Disintegrations. Censorings. Or what is a truth. Or the epistemology and ontology of truths. Or Being and beings, Truth and truths. Or separations and presences. Or none or all of these. Let me explain. 1 There are events without causes. Or one might think of reverse engin- eering of an event backwards into a chaotic cloud. Imagine chaos all the way down. Dwarves were cited in late medieval Germany. There are always portents in the sky. UFOs are described. Alien abductions share things in common. It is irrelevant whether something or nothing was there. Events in parallel do not prove causation. Relation is not causation. Perhaps nothing causes war. 2 There are battles without truths. There are casualty reports by both militaries; by other observers. Reports almost never tally. There is nothing to tally. There are deaths but there are not enumerable deaths. There are always deaths elsewhere, inwards and outwards. There are always deaths without causes. 3 I am thinking about operations without truths and causes. Casualties accumulate according to protocols. There are semantic clouds. There are ruptures, disseminations, gatherings, filterings. I cannot prove an enumeration, nor can I prove a cause. A cause is a linkage among machines that tends towards reiteration among cycles. Machines at best are local distributions. The machine has indefinite chains, accumulations. There are never enough chains. 4 One counts chains, local neighborhoods of filterings. One arrives at the station. The station says truth or cause, and that seems sufficient. There are rails. The rails are always already guides, to be rusted, mistrusted. Nothing moves but the sememe. The sememe is a nomadic maw; the sememe produces conclusions. The sememe is the postcloud, the chaotic cloud is the precloud. Cause is interstitial. A mixup not to be confused with structure. 5 A portent is not a cause. An action and reaction are couplings, rela- tions, associations. They are imminent, ride the surface of the inter- stitial. Don't mistake them for cause. 6 Deaths are not a cause for truth or enumeration. There is no truth in death, in war, in illness. There are stations which filter truth. They construct truth. There are facts but far fewer than presumed. A death may be a fact; deaths are not facts. Wars are not facts. 7 The core of it: facts are neither true nor false. Facts are. Facts are indescribable. There is no economy, no political economy, of facts. Facts are invisible. Facts are not caused by facts. There is only reverse engin- eering of chaotic clouds. No cloud is perfect. Clouds and languages mis- match. Clouds and languagings mismatch. 8 To write fact, truth, cause, is to write inerrancy. To write inerrancy is to inscribe, construct a logical negative. Negatives do not exist; selves are always others, others are always others. Others disappear like facts; others are invisible. Others are facts are others. Others do not cause, are not caused, harbor no truth. Truth is always somewhere else. 9 Truth is always somewhere else; truth is always someone else. Truth is always spoken by the other. The speaking of truth by the other is the speaking of the visible other, who is not other. Others do not speak. 10 Without truths there are actions. Without causes there are resistances. Without facts there are worlds. There are worlds without facts and others. Our world is our own world without facts and others. Our own world is invisible to us. Our own world is a disappearance. 11 'With facts there are words. There are words with facts and others. Our words are our own words with facts and others. Our own words are visible to us. Our own word is an appearance.' 12 One says: 'It is clear now that there are no events. There is no reverse engineering. Surely there are clouds, surely there are preclouds and postclouds. Surely they are clear.' 'Whatever _is_ may _not be._' (Hume) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:43:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: We agreed to shut down the pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We agreed to shut down the pages - Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 05:54:22 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Theater of Eternal Recurrence In-Reply-To: <47367A70.40309@hawaii.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First entry up at - =20 http://theaterofeternalrecurrence.blogspot.com/ =20 See you there. SE _________________________________________________________________ Boo!=A0Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare= ! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=3Dwl_hotma= ilnews= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:48:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Pritchett Subject: Re: Julie Carr & Patrick Pritchett at Lorem Ipsum, Cambridge: 11/18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Julie Carr and Patrick Pritchett will read from their new books Sunday, = November 18 at 7:00 PM at Lorem Ipsum Books in Inman Square. Cambridge native Julie Carr's first book, Mead: An Epithalamion, won the = University of Georgia Press's contemporary poetry prize for 2004. Her = second collection, Equivocal, was recently published by Alice James = Books. Her poems have appeared in such journals as Volt, American = Letters and Commentary, Pool, Verse, The Iowa Review, Boston Review, and = TriQuarterly. She lives in Denver and teaches at the University of = Colorado, Boulder. Patrick Pritchett's Burn - Doxology for Joan of Arc was published by = Chax Press in 2005. His other works include the newly released chapbook = Lives of the Poets, Reside, and the forthcoming Antiphonal. He teaches = in the History & Literature Program at Harvard University. Lorem Ipsum Books = (www.loremipsumbooks.com) is located at = 157 Hampshire Street in Cambridge, one block east of Prospect. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 23:40:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Newell Subject: Cost of Freedom Anti-war book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ... endorsed by such figures as Harry Belafonte, Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Ramsey Clark, Thom Hartmann, Ralph Nader, FreeSpeechTV, Pete Seeger, Kevin Zeese, and others. Cost of Freedom: The Anthology of Peace and Activism is being hailed as "not just a book, but a national movement." Not only do peace and antiwar organizations receive the book at wholesale, but the objective, through the Cost of Freedom Foundation (in process), is to donate a portion of the proceeds to the work of these not-for-profit organizations to help them with their continued struggle to halt the war and the warmongers, and to bring about a better world for everyone. The anthology features anti-war art, photographs, poems, articles, stories, and so on--in fact, 166 pages of inspirational information (many in full color) that speaks crucially to the fact that peace is the only answer to the problems now facing us, and peace is the unifying element that will bring the world together in one accord. ... Here also are two links to Cost of Freedom's web presence: http://costoffreedom.blogspotcom and www.myspace.com/costoffreedombook Cost of Freedom is filled with crucial information, and it is convincing in its presentation of the work of over 100 contributors; and, as Thom Hartmann notes, this is a large, beautiful, coffee-table style book, printed on fine paper in two editions, softcover and hardbound, and both are available to your group. At this time, to eliminate competition from bookstore chains, Amazon.com, etc., Cost of Freedom is not being offered to them for sale. Instead, we would like to see peace and anti-war groups make the money that would otherwise go to the corporations and business interests. If this sounds like something you would be interested in, please call or e-mail me. I am the senior editor at Howling Dog Press, the publisher of Cost of Freedom, and I have the authority to distribute books to you at wholesale. My co-editors and I are planning a sequel to Cost of Freedom. Perhaps you have your own stories, art and poems that you would like to contribute to the second book. We encourage you to see the wonderful format and layout of the first book and summarily prepare to submit work for the book that is to follow. Here is a link to a recent radio interview where my co-editor, Whitney Trettien, and I are being interviewed about Cost of Freedom. You will see how very enthusiastic the program hosts are about the book and its potential to bring about change: http://www.freerangethought.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=260&Itemid=40 Thanks for your consideration; peace and courage, Michael Annis HowlingDogStiletto@msn.com 970-231-8106 "If the world is ever going to be changed, it will be through the efforts of millions of individuals and small organizations. Cost of Freedom tells the encouraging stories of many who have begun this work." --Pete Seeger ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:25:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Norman Mailer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ch 11 news said mailer wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the naked and the dead his book about the march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell writes: > My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: > > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > broke up two years later. > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 > grandchildren. > « Previous Page > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > broke up two years later. > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 > grandchildren. > « Previous Page > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > broke up two years later. > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 > grandchildren. > « Previous Page > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > broke up two years later. > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 > grandchildren. > « Previous Page > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Next > > Ann Bogle wrote: > > > > Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines > about > Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics > stance; where > does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows > upon Grace > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from > Armies > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that > anthology of > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. > Probably certain > professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler > followed us > past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the > information > that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. > When? we > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes > were so serious > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where > I > live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual > property > chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or > Updike. AMB > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:29:32 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: P Ganick Subject: peter ganick's "existences" now published online and in paper Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com http://vuggbooks.randomflux.info hi folks...... with the publication of books 7 thru 15 at the new vuggbooka site and the already-publishied 1 thru 6 at: http://www.lulu.com/cPress and book sixteen, as 'meditation for inner voice', at bluelionbooks site: http://www.cafepress.com/bluelionbooks66 book 1 thru 15 are available as free downloads book 1, 3 thru 6, and 16 are availale as perfectbound books book 2 is available as a saddle-stitched book i hope you will take a moment to check out some of these unique text pieces by peter ganick. each of these three sites contains original, challenging text-forays. peter ganick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:25:36 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: Memorial Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Rm9sbG93aW5nIHRoZSB0cmFkaXRpb24gb2YgYW50aS13YXIgdmV0ZXJhbnMsIHRoZXNlIEly YXEgV2FyIHZldGVyYW5zLCBsaWtlIHRoZSBWaWV0bmFtIFZldGVyYW5zIEFnYWluc3QgdGhl IFdhciBiZWZvcmUgdGhlbSwgaGF2ZSBzdGFnZWQgZGVtb25zdHJhdGlvbnMgb24gdGhlIEFt ZXJpY2FuIGhvbWVmcm9udCwgZHJhbWF0aXppbmcgZm9yIGNpdmlsaWFucyB3aGF0IGl0IG1p Z2h0IGxvb2sgbGlrZSB0byBsaXZlIHVuZGVyIGZvcmVpZ24gbWlsaXRhcnkgb2NjdXBhdGlv bi4gT24gdGhpcyBNZW1vcmlhbCBEYXksIEkgd2FudCB0byByZW1lbWJlciB0aG9zZSB3aG8g ZGllZCBzZXJ2aW5nIG91ciBjb3VudHJ5LCByZWdhcmRsZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBwb2xpdGljYWwg bWFjaGluYXRpb25zIHRoYXQgbGVkIHRvIHRoZWlyIHNlcnZpY2UsIGFuZCBhbHNvIHRob3Nl IHdob3NlIGxpdmVzIHdlcmUgbmV2ZXIgdGhlIHNhbWUgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlaXIgc2VydmljZS4g 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========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:15:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: new on rhubarb is susan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New this weekend on rhubarb is susan -- three flash-reviews in the traditional rhubarb style. Of Jo Ann Wasserman, Kevin Magee, and Stacey Levine, all compiled for your reading pleasure and delight by the google corporation: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/11/jo-ann-wasserman-false-italy-and-where.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/11/kevin-magee-interpreter.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/11/stacey-levine-world-of-barry.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/ Thanks for tuning in, and do join the discussion -- yours, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:33:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina E Lovin Subject: James Wright Memorial Anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't recall seeing anything from anyone about From the Other World: Poems in Memory of James Wright, although there was a thread a short time ago about Wright's poetry. Let this serve as announcement of the publication of this anthology. I received my contributor's copies in Friday's mail and found that my work is appearing with memorial poems and prose from Merwin, Bly, Hugo, Kinnell, Williams (C.K.), and some other notable poets. Then, there's me, just happy to be there, like I am in the rest of my life. Take a look at this beautiful, evocative anthology at www.losthillsbook.com Christina Lovin www.christinalovin.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:07:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Third Thursday Poetry Night, Albany, NY -- Margot Malia Lynch Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed the Poetry Motel Foundation presents Third Thursday Poetry Night at the Social Justice Center 33 Central Ave., Albany, NY Thursday, November 15, 2007=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 7:00 sign up; 7:30 start Featured Poet: Margot Malia Lynch with open mic for poets before & after the feature $3.00 donation.=A0 Your constant host: Dan Wilcox. Margot Malia Lynch is a spoken word artist who writes about the=20 spiritual quest, pre-history, and overcoming the bullshit of the=20 world.=A0 She identifies with the natural world and brings her Hawaiian=20= roots and passion to the stage.=A0 She co-hosted an open mic in Boston=20= with Regie Gibson and is constantly=A0expanding her performance career.=A0= =20 www.myspace.com/margotmalia, www.margotlynch.com,=20 margotproductions@yahoo.com Turn it up by Margot Malia Lynch when you give focused attention to the tree she will slowly turn towards your face. the stars move if you stare at them long enough. I am feeling a slow turn towards me of the people who desire the connection who live for expansion towards the fire. I=92m burning a blaze to brighten the insides of THE SEARCHERS. THE SEEKERS. The living want to be seen and I see you. soon you will see your light in my eyes. You are channeling the midnight sun. Turning into yourself the mirror of the soul. I saw you leave your body just to return with a kiss like your own sleeping beauty. I saw you waking me when I was in a dream. With just a turn of the head the whole world changes. When you kneel down and pray do you listen? Turning your perspective=A0up. I see you in your ascension. I want to ride it high. Turn in up. Turn it way way up. On my way way up. Turn it up. ## ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:53:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: EVENTS AT NOTRE DAME AND WOODLAND PATTERN Comments: To: british-irish-poets@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk, UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1826C8C; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-473787D70703=======" --=======AVGMAIL-473787D70703======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1826C8C WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 14TH, MICHAEL HELLER AND HANK LAZER AT NOTRE DAME 4:30 PM The Joseph P. Duffy Lecture at Hesburgh Center Auditorium Michael Heller: "Remains of the Diaspora: A Personal Meditation" Hank Lazer: "Is There a Distinctive Jewish Poetics? Several, Many? Is There Any Question?" 7 PM Poetry Reading at Hospitality Room, S. Dining Hall Michael Heller and Hank Lazer * SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 17TH, MICHAEL HELLER AT WOODLAND PATTERN in MILWAUKEE 720 East Locust Street 1-4 PM, WORKSHOP: "THINKING WITH THINGS AS THEY EXIST: WRITING OUT OF THE OBJECTIVIST TRADITION" 7 PM POETRY READING: MICHAEL HELLER AND KARL GARTUNG ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) available at www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good bookstores. Survey of work at: http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm Collaborations with Ellen Fishman Johnson at: http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html --=======AVGMAIL-473787D70703======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1826C8C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: 11/11/2007= 10:12 AM --=======AVGMAIL-473787D70703=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:38:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Library of Congress E-lit Web Archive Project Comments: To: E-Poetry , LEA_nmp , Webartery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline [Apologies for cross-posting] The United States Library of Congress is archiving 300 electronic literature web sites, in collaboration with the ELO (Electronic Literature Organization) and archive-it.org. To participate in this project, please see (and note there is a FAQ linked on that page, ) Please note I am simply posting the news, and am not involved in organizing this project. If you have further questions, please use the contact page at the main ELO URL, If the number of submissions exceeds 300, then as far as I know the final selection will be made by the ELO board. --- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ Internet: jr@amanue.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:38:01 -0800 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Buuck Subject: SF Public Library talk on Bay Area public art - 11/15 6pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This Thursday Nov 15 @ 6pm I'll be giving a talk on public art practices in the Bay Area at the SF Public Library. I'll be showing slides & looking at recent works & interventions performed by local artists, as well as interrogating the parameters by which we tend to define "public" and "art" in the context of an increasingly privatized & corporatized urban landscape. I'm also aiming to look at some counter-practices, especially those everyday life-world practices that don't always "read" as "art", as well as exploring some speculative practices that might yet emerge out of our collective tactics as engaged citizen-artists. David Buuck Thur Nov 15 6-730 pm SF Public Library (downstairs) http://sfpl5.sfpl.org/scripts/publish/webevent.pl?cmd=showevent&ncmd=search&cal=cal5&id=84886&ncals=&de=1&tf=0&sib=1&sb=0&sa=0&ws=1&stz=Default&sort=e,m,t&swe=1&cf=list&set=1&m=11&d=11&y=2007 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:47:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick dunagan Subject: Thibodeaux & Sawyer Reading, SF, 11/13/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Poetry Reading: Sunnylyn Thibodeaux & Nora Sawyer Tuesday November 13 7:30 PM Bazaar Cafe www.bazaarcafe.com 5927 California (b/w 21st & 22nd Ave) San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Schadenfreude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > definition from a german > > means having fun of (or enjoying) other´s misfortune, pain or the > like....malicious joy maybe the word.. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:29:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Fw: Re: free form MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > nov 18 2007 > > > free form evening > > at > > > > Zebulon > > > > 258 wythe > > > > in williamsburg L train to bedford > > > > 615 - 645 jun matsuzaki solo sax and electronics > > > > 7 pm to 8 pm musetry w/ ty cumbie, ravish momin, adam lane, ellen > > christi, steve dalachinsky > > > > 8 pm matt heyner's malkuth - heavy metal trio > > featuring members of no neck blues band > > > > 9 pm- midnite roy campbell, matt lavelle, steve dalachinsky and > > guests jam > > > > donation for info call 1212 925 5256 or go to zbulon website > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:24:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: This Friday at Small Press Traffic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Claudia Rankine & Sarah Rosenthal Friday, November 16, 2007 Timken Lecture Hall 7:30 p.m. Refreshments will be served Join us! Claudia Rankine is the author of four collections of poetry, including, most recently, Don't Let Me Be Lonely --an experimental project blending poetry, essays and images, of which poet Robert Creely wrote: "Claudia Rankine here manages an extraordinary melding of means to effect the most articulate and moving testament to the bleak times we live in I've yet seen. It's a master work in every sense, and altogether her own." Rankine's work has been published in The Boston Review, Jubilat, The Kenyon Review, TriQuarterly, and many other journals. This is an evening of poetry not to be missed! Sarah Rosenthal's cross-genre book Manhatten (Spuyten Duyvil, forthcoming) was shortlisted for the Starcherone Fiction Prize. Her chapbooks include How I Wrote This Story (Margin to Margin, 2001), sitings (a+bend, 2000), and not-chicago (Melodeon, 1998). Her poetry and fiction have appeared in numerous journals such as Xcp (Cross-Cultural Poetics), 26, Bird Dog, Aufgabe, and Boston Review, and have been anthologized in Bay Poetics (Faux Press, 2005) and hinge: A BOAS Anthology (Crack Press, 2002). She has taught creative writing at San Francisco State University and Santa Clara University as well as privately. She is editing a collection of interviews with Bay Area avant-garde writers. She is a recipient of the Leo Litwak Award for Fiction. About Manhatten Juliana Spahr writes, "This is not the mythic Manhattan of bright lights and glitz. It is called Manhatten and it is wonderfully out of kilter. In this mixed-genre book (fiction, poetry, review), Sarah Rosenthal layers headlong, voice-driven prose with silent, otherly poems to tell a story of an island where relationships are disturbed yet meaningful and luminous." Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Dana Teen Lomax, Interim Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 smallpresstraffic@gmail.com http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:26:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: otherwise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OTHERWISE. Not the world's least frequently-cultivated blog, but far from the most cared-for, or the most succinct. Nonetheless, recent posts exist, and include text-art and posts on the Spahr-Young/Ashton debate, Kent Johnson, Paul Chan, Robin Blaser, Lou & Peter Berryman, Jasper Bernes, Jess and more! http://ndgwriting.blogspot.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:15:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: EOAGH ISSUE 4 LAUNCH 11/18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUNDAY NOVEMBER 18 5 PM at Unnameable Books A Poetry Reading Celebrating the Launch of EOAGH: A Journal of the Arts Issue 4 456 Bergen Street Brooklyn, NY FREE Featuring: Gilbert Adair Cara Benson Joel Chace James Cook Alan Davies Thom Donovan Joanna Fuhrman Rebecca Gopoian Dan Hoy Sara Marcus Stephen Paul Miller Nick Piombino Tim Peterson Evelyn Reilly Edwin Rodriguez Gregory Vincent St Thomasino Shelly Taylor Adam Tobin Lynn Xu EOAGH Issue 4 Edited by Tim Peterson will be available at http://chax.org/eoagh prior to this event -- more info soon. ***The editors of Time Out New York have appointed Unnameable Books as one = of NYC's 50 Essential Secrets.***= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:51:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Reminder, Hilles and McDougall, Wednesday, Columbia College Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RICK HILLES and JO McDOUGALL Wednesday, November 14, 2007, 5:30 p.m. Columbia College Chicago: Collins Hall, 624 S. Michigan, 6th floor Free and open to the public For more information, call Becca Klaver, 312-344-8819 RICK HILLES's poetry collection, BROTHER SALVAGE, won the 2005 Agnes Lynch Starrett Prize from University of Pittsburgh Press, and was recently named the 2006 Foreword Magazine Poetry Book of the Year. His poems have appeared in POETRY, THE NATION, THE NEW REPUBLIC, PLOUGHSHARES, SALMAGUNDI, and WITNESS. He has received the Amy Lowell Poetry Traveling Scholarship, the Wallace Stegner Fellowship at Stanford, the Halls Fellowship from Institute for Creative Writing at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, and The Missouri Review's Levis Editor's Prize. During Fall 2007, he is Writer in Residence at the James Merrill House in Stonington, CT. He is an Assistant Professor at Vanderbilt University and lives in Nashville, Tennessee with his wife, the fiction writer Nancy Reisman. JO McDOUGALL is the author of five books of poetry, the latest two being DIRT and SATISFIED WITH HAVOC. She has won awards from the DeWitt Wallace/Reader's Digest foundation, the Academy of American Poets, and fellowships to the MacDowell Colony. Widely anthologized, her work has been adapted for film, theater, and musical compositions. TOWNS FACING RAILROADS, an adaptation of her poetry, was staged at the Arkansas Repertory Theatre in 2006. Her poems have appeared in COURT GREEN, HUDSON REVIEW, GEORGIA REVIEW, KENYON REVIEW, MiPOESIAS, and NEW LETTERS, among others. She is a former co-director of creative writing at Pittsburg State University, Pittsburg, Kansas. A native of Arkansas, she lives in Kansas City and is completing a memoir, DADDY'S MONEY. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:38:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: New in "Remainder Series": David-Baptiste Chirot: "Light Remains" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline New in "Remainder Series" From Josef Keppler of painters, poet, composers: (Seattle) > Dear David-Baptiste, > It is with deep gratitude to you that I'm sending you, > and all the others on our list, a copy of your > beautiful, provocative print. May it help us all to > see that light remains as well as to realize that much > work remains. > With all good wishes, > Josef > By the way the exact message that was sent out with > the pdf version of "Light Remains" follows: > > David-Baptiste Chirot explains: "'Light Remains' is > from a series of pieces called 'No Place to Move,' a > series within a much larger one to do with Walls, > which has been going on for the last 17 months now." > > The title comes from a phrase he made for another > series a few years ago: "'To absorb darkness until > all that remains is light'--(the opposite of a Black > Hole)--Light having the ancient associations which > continue to this day--and 'Light Remains'--even when > hope may seem gone--it remains--'One cannot hide from > that which never sets,' as Heraclitus says. So though > people my be Walled off, imprisoned, 'disappeared,' > and turned into non-persons--yet they exist--and Light > Remains--they are visible--and see through those > fences and Walls--even when it says 'no place to > move'-- > > "A lot of the pieces are inspired by the situation of > the people inside Gaza--and then extended and > continuing to extend to many more areas and situations > all around one in the world in which Walls may be > thought of as censorship, surveillance, "security"=97not > only physical Walls, mental and spiritual ones--and > ones made by language, built with words and images-- > > "Light Remains" also as it is the constant in the > relativity theory for example--all these Walls and > words change through time--can be changed in time--so > to see even through the fence and a chink in the > Wall--is creating an opening--possibilities--" > > David-Baptiste's email address is: > davidbchirot@hotmail.com. > > The pdf version of "Light Remains" is attached. An > limited edition of 25 has been printed. The pdf may be seen at the following address since attachments not allowed here on Poetics: http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2007/11/david-baptiste-chirot-light= -remains.html > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! = Try now! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:39:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: <20071111.115841.1980.5.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward the end of his life he wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only book of his I ever read all the way through was "Advertisements For Myself" which I liked at the time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it seemed dated. Anyway, one of his novels, I forget which one, has a passage in which the narrator gets a rush out of stabbing his wife to death. A couple of years ago I decided not to review an anthology in which the excerpt describing the stabbing and the rush appeared. It seemed immoral in the worst sense, especially since Mailer once did stab his real wife at the time who, masochist that she was, declined to press charges even though she was seriously injured. It may be that Mailer's other books or some of them justified the public's tolerance of his worst side as a person. I just don't know. Regards, Tom Savage "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: ch 11 news said mailer wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the naked and the dead his book about the march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell writes: > My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: > > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > broke up two years later. > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 > grandchildren. > « Previous Page > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > broke up two years later. > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 > grandchildren. > « Previous Page > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > broke up two years later. > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 > grandchildren. > « Previous Page > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer’s > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > broke up two years later. > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > long feud with feminists and proponents of women’s liberation, and > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > Manhattan he declared himself an “enemy of birth control.” He meant > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris’s, and 10 > grandchildren. > « Previous Page > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Next > > Ann Bogle wrote: > > > > Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines > about > Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics > stance; where > does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows > upon Grace > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from > Armies > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that > anthology of > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. > Probably certain > professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler > followed us > past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the > information > that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. > When? we > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes > were so serious > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where > I > live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual > property > chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or > Updike. AMB > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:30:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Thibodeaux & Sawyer Reading, SF, 11/13/07 In-Reply-To: <5fabddd10711111847g4f929bf4odf66a5afca30db01@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tomorrow night! Wish I was in San Francisco. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of patrick dunagan Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:48 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Thibodeaux & Sawyer Reading, SF, 11/13/07 Poetry Reading: Sunnylyn Thibodeaux & Nora Sawyer Tuesday November 13 7:30 PM Bazaar Cafe www.bazaarcafe.com 5927 California (b/w 21st & 22nd Ave) San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:34:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: <365437.70073.qm@web31105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Norman's maler "There are then quite a number of things one does or does not know." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 12, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Thomas savage wrote: > Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward the end of his =20= > life he wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only book of =20= > his I ever read all the way through was "Advertisements For Myself" =20= > which I liked at the time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it =20= > seemed dated. Anyway, one of his novels, I forget which one, has a =20= > passage in which the narrator gets a rush out of stabbing his wife =20 > to death. A couple of years ago I decided not to review an =20 > anthology in which the excerpt describing the stabbing and the rush =20= > appeared. It seemed immoral in the worst sense, especially since =20 > Mailer once did stab his real wife at the time who, masochist that =20 > she was, declined to press charges even though she was seriously =20 > injured. It may be that Mailer's other books or some of them =20 > justified the public's tolerance of his worst side as a person. I =20 > just don't know. Regards, Tom Savage > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: ch 11 news said =20 > mailer wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the > naked and the dead his book about the > march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell > > writes: >> My memory isn't so good. =46rom David Chirot's NY Times link: >> >> In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele >> Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident >> happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer=92s >> intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of >> his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but >> his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released >> after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage >> broke up two years later. >> All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie >> with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of >> days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His >> other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady >> Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz >> Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. >> Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a >> long feud with feminists and proponents of women=92s liberation, and >> in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in >> Manhattan he declared himself an =93enemy of birth control.=94 He = meant >> it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom >> survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, >> by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen >> McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John >> Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, >> Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris=92s, and 10 >> grandchildren. >> =AB Previous Page >> 1 >> 2 >> 3 >> 4 >> Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele >> Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident >> happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer=92s >> intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of >> his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but >> his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released >> after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage >> broke up two years later. >> All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie >> with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of >> days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His >> other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady >> Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz >> Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. >> Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a >> long feud with feminists and proponents of women=92s liberation, and >> in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in >> Manhattan he declared himself an =93enemy of birth control.=94 He = meant >> it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom >> survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, >> by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen >> McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John >> Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, >> Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris=92s, and 10 >> grandchildren. >> =AB Previous Page >> 1 >> 2 >> 3 >> 4 >> Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele >> Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident >> happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer=92s >> intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of >> his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but >> his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released >> after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage >> broke up two years later. >> All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie >> with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of >> days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His >> other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady >> Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz >> Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. >> Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a >> long feud with feminists and proponents of women=92s liberation, and >> in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in >> Manhattan he declared himself an =93enemy of birth control.=94 He = meant >> it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom >> survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, >> by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen >> McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John >> Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, >> Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris=92s, and 10 >> grandchildren. >> =AB Previous Page >> 1 >> 2 >> 3 >> 4 >> Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele >> Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident >> happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer=92s >> intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of >> his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but >> his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released >> after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage >> broke up two years later. >> All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie >> with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of >> days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His >> other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady >> Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz >> Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. >> Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a >> long feud with feminists and proponents of women=92s liberation, and >> in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in >> Manhattan he declared himself an =93enemy of birth control.=94 He = meant >> it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom >> survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, >> by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen >> McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John >> Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, >> Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris=92s, and 10 >> grandchildren. >> =AB Previous Page >> 1 >> 2 >> 3 >> 4 >> Next >> >> Ann Bogle wrote: >> >> >> >> Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines >> about >> Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics >> stance; where >> does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows >> upon Grace >> Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from >> Armies >> of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that >> anthology of >> postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. >> Probably certain >> professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler >> followed us >> past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the >> information >> that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. >> When? we >> asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes >> were so serious >> -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where=20= >> I >> live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual >> property >> chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or >> Updike. AMB >> >> >> >> ************************************** See what's new at >> http://www.aol.com >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:28:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Alok Sarkar and his poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alok Sarkar (b 1933) is a celebrated Indian poet from the 1950's generation. He commands a solid and significant body of work written over nearly half-a-century which includes more than a dozen collections of poetry, several volumes of poetry-prose, an autobiography etc. Poetry Fortnightly Press (Kabita Pakkhik), Kolkata, has published his collected poems in four volumes. Alok Sarkar has received several poetry awards during an illustrious literary career the most noteworthy of which is the Tagore Award (Rabindra Purashkar) for literature - the highest state award in Bengali literature - which he relinquished this year in a protest against the neo-liberal Marxist state government of West Bengal, for launching genocides against poor peasants unwilling to surrender their farmlands to a government-sponsored spree of rapid and mandatory industrialization. Kaurab Online presents a brief exposure to Alok Sarkar's work here - http://www.kaurab.com/english/aalok.html Alok Sarkar's poetry is founded on cultural and linguistic traditions that are deeply vernacular. Rather ascetic is nature, Alok Sarkar's poetry is made with words and images that are carefully weighed and optimized. Absence is a key element of his poetry. Many of his images are mirrored thru the void. A color scheme is often expressed via a complete absence of colors. Meaning is anointed with meaninglessness. Subjectivity is either reversed or pushed out of focus to the periphery. As the pronouncement of existence gets sharper in his poetry, Alok tends to follow more avidly the "non-existence of existence". Nought always occupies a special place in his poetry. The occupancy of space by nought is one of the most imperative constituents of his entire thought-process. Nought, too, signifies existence. It is the presence of nought that complements the existence of nothingness. The poet is currently in Boston, visiting his son. We would like to encourage poets living in the Boston area to invite him to local readings during his stay. Sarkar plans to return to India early January, 08. ================================ Aryanil Mukherjee Editor, KAURAB http://www.kaurab.com ================================ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:43:37 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Jones Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: <365437.70073.qm@web31105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline since when were writers the voice of morality? On Nov 12, 2007 4:39 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward the end of his life= he wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only book of his I ever = read all the way through was "Advertisements For Myself" which I liked at t= he time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it seemed dated. Anyway, on= e of his novels, I forget which one, has a passage in which the narrator ge= ts a rush out of stabbing his wife to death. A couple of years ago I decid= ed not to review an anthology in which the excerpt describing the stabbing = and the rush appeared. It seemed immoral in the worst sense, especially si= nce Mailer once did stab his real wife at the time who, masochist that she = was, declined to press charges even though she was seriously injured. It m= ay be that Mailer's other books or some of them justified the public's tole= rance of his worst side as a person. I just don't know. Regards, Tom Sava= ge > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: ch 11 news said mailer= wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the > naked and the dead his book about the > march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell > > writes: > > My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: > > > > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > =AB Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > =AB Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > =AB Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > =AB Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next > > > > Ann Bogle wrote: > > > > > > > > Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines > > about > > Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics > > stance; where > > does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows > > upon Grace > > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from > > Armies > > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that > > anthology of > > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. > > Probably certain > > professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler > > followed us > > past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the > > information > > that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. > > When? we > > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes > > were so serious > > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where > > I > > live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual > > property > > chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or > > Updike. AMB > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:51:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 11.12.07-11.18.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 LITERARY BUFFALO 11.12.07-11.18.07 BABEL WE ARE NOW OFFERING A 3-EVENT SUBSCRIPTION FOR =2460. CALL 832-5400 FOR DET= AILS. Tickets for individual Babel events are still on sale. Call or visit = http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel. Get your tickets while you can=21 December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden =2425 March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize =2425 April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize =2425 Here's a sampling of the press we've gotten for Babel: http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6487741.html http://artvoice.com/issues/v6n44/talk_with_each_other http://www.spreeblog.com/?p=3D607 http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/202866.html http://buffalonews.typepad.com/artsbeat/2007/11/more-from-orhan.html http://www.buffalonews.com/185/story/199108.html http://www.buffalonews.com/185/story/199109.html http://buffalonews.typepad.com/artsbeat/2007/10/orhan-pamuk-t-1.html Plus some photos from Bruce Jackson: http://picasaweb.google.com/bruce36/OrhanPamuk ___________________________________________________________________________ EVENTS Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. 11.13.07 Talking Leaves...Books Katherine Arnoldi Reading and signing for All Things Are Labor: Stories Tuesday, November 13, 7 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. & Kavinoky Theater A MUSICAL FEAST, with guest poet Max Wickert Tuesday, November 13, 8 p.m. The Kavinoky Theater, D'Youville College, 320 Porter Avenue, Buffalo, NY 1= 4201 Call: 829-7668 FOR INFORMATION & TICKETS General Admission : =24 25 Seniors: =24 20 Students: =24 10 group prices av= ailable www.amusicalfeast.com 11.14.07 Just Buffalo Open Reading Feature: TBA Wednesday, November 14, 7 p.m. Carnegie Art Center, 240 Goundry St., N. Tonawanda 10 open slots, all are welcome to read=21 & Earth's Daughter's Gray Hair Reading Series Paul Hogan and Max Wickert Poetry Reading Wednesday, November 14, 7:30 p.m. =245 suggested Hallwalls Cinema at Babeville, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper 11.15.07 Poetics Plus at UB/Exhibit X Fiction Nathaniel Mackey Poetry Reading Thursday, November 15, 7 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema at Babeville, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper & Just Buffalo/new/reNEW Tom Piccillo & Liz Mariani Poetry Reading Thursday, November 15, 7 p.m. Impact Gallery, Tri-Main Center, 2495 Main St, Ste. 545 11.16.07 Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series Dan Machlin and Stephanie Gray Poetry Reading Friday, November 16, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen Street 11.18.07 Just Buffalo Open Reading Feature: TBA Sunday, November 18, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. 10 open slots, all are welcome to read=21 Spoken Word Sundays Lonnie B. Harrell & Melissa Lussier Sunday, November 11, 8 p.m. Allen Street Hardware, 245 Allen St. Slots for open readers available ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ___________________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:39:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Thibodeaux & Sawyer Reading, SF, 11/13/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'll be out in san francisco dec for pen awards how can one get a reading in this cafe? or else where right now looking at dec 9 or 10 dec 6 7 8 filled thanks steve dalachinsky please back channel On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:47:50 -0800 patrick dunagan writes: > Poetry Reading: > > Sunnylyn Thibodeaux & Nora Sawyer > > Tuesday November 13 7:30 PM > Bazaar Cafe www.bazaarcafe.com > 5927 California (b/w 21st & 22nd Ave) > San Francisco > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:29:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jessica Wickens Subject: One month left to submit - Monday Night Issue 7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Monday Night, a journal of literature and art, is now accepting submissions for Issue 7 (Summer 2008). We publish quality prose and poetry from new and emerging writers from across the country and around the world. Monday Night is sold at independent bookstores and on our website. For more information and to view past issues, visit our website: http://www.mondaynightlit.com Read from our contents page to see if your work would be a good fit, or better yet, order a copy for yourself and for each of your friends. Reading an issue will give you the best picture of our highly inconsistent and unpredictable tastes. GUIDELINES Please follow our guidelines carefully. You can also find them on our website. If you still have questions, write to the editors at mondaynightlit@yahoo.com. POETRY: Send up to five poems. All styles are welcome. PROSE: Fiction, nonfiction, and essays up to 5,000 words. Send up to 3 pieces of prose. Translations are welcome in all genres. PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED WORK: We accept unpublished work only. This includes online publications. If you have published the piece in any online or print journal, do not submit it to Monday Night. We do an internet search for all pieces that we accept for publication, to make sure they do not appear anywhere else. Please be honest and respect our parameters. SIMULTANEOUS SUBMISSIONS: We do accept simultaneous submissions, but please inform us if/when your work is accepted elsewhere, so we can remove it from consideration. HOW TO SUBMIT: Email all submissions to the editors at mondaynightlit@yahoo.com. Your submissions should be in one doc, rtf, or pdf file attached to your email. Please title or label all your work clearly within the document. Your name and contact info should also appear on your submission. Your email message should include your name, contact info, the titles of your submissions and whether they are fiction, poetry or non-fiction. We do not confirm receipt of each submission; please follow up by email if you have any questions or concerns. DEADLINE: December 15, 2007 RESPONSE TIME: Up to four months. We will respond to all submissions by February 2008. The reading period ends on Dec. 15, 2007, and we aim to make our final decisions by the end of January 2008. PAYMENT: Each published writer will receive two copies of the issue in which their work appears. Thanks~ Rob Pierce & Jessica Wickens, Editors ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:03:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you. Mailer was probing the extremes of experience, willfully exploring the taboo throughout his career. To get to the kind of knowledge he was seeking, one has to transgress morality. In fact, he laid the groundwork for most of it in "Advertisements for Myself." I judge a writer's writing, not his conduct. If I did otherwise, I'd eliminate Dostoevsky, Pound, Celine, Burroughs, and many others, and it would be my loss. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Andrew Jones Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:44 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Norman Mailer since when were writers the voice of morality? On Nov 12, 2007 4:39 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward the end of his life he wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only book of his I ever read all the way through was "Advertisements For Myself" which I liked at the time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it seemed dated. Anyway, one of his novels, I forget which one, has a passage in which the narrator gets a rush out of stabbing his wife to death. A couple of years ago I decided not to review an anthology in which the excerpt describing the stabbing and the rush appeared. It seemed immoral in the worst sense, especially since Mailer once did stab his real wife at the time who, masochist that she was, declined to press charges even though she was seriously injured. It may be that Mailer's other books or some of them justified the public's tolerance of his worst side as a person. I just don't know. Regards, Tom Savage > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: ch 11 news said mailer wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the > naked and the dead his book about the > march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell > > writes: > > My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: > > > > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next > > > > Ann Bogle wrote: > > > > > > > > Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines > > about > > Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics > > stance; where > > does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows > > upon Grace > > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from > > Armies > > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that > > anthology of > > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. > > Probably certain > > professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler > > followed us > > past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the > > information > > that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. > > When? we > > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes > > were so serious > > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where > > I > > live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual > > property > > chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or > > Updike. AMB > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:43:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just so, Vernon. I loved the book _Charles Olson and Ezra Pound: An Encounter at St Elizabeth's_ taken from the notebook pages Olson would write after = visiting Pound a few days a week. Some nights Olson would write about loving to = hear Pound describe, say, the exact shade of light coming from a lake on one = of his walking tours of the 1920s, praising the clarity of his memory and intelligence. Other nights he'd be fuming remembering Pound's economic = dogma and anti-Semitism earlier that day.=20 Both great and flawed like his poetry. Parallel to what Duncan wrote: = "their unfaltering wrongness that has style" -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Vernon Frazer Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 2:03 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Norman Mailer Thank you. Mailer was probing the extremes of experience, willfully exploring the taboo throughout his career. To get to the kind of = knowledge he was seeking, one has to transgress morality. In fact, he laid the groundwork for most of it in "Advertisements for Myself." I judge a = writer's writing, not his conduct. If I did otherwise, I'd eliminate Dostoevsky, Pound, Celine, Burroughs, and many others, and it would be my loss. =20 Vernon=20 http://vernonfrazer.com =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:42:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mailer could be an asshole, but possibly his worst moment came when he was acting out of concern. He helped get Jack Henry Abbott out of prison. I think Mailer saw Abbott as his Genet. Mailer was always coming up with pseudo existential sound bites. I think Mailer wanted to be the literary equivalent of Sartre. He was fond of the word evil. When he came to the National Press Club, I asked him if he considered Gary Gilmore or Abbott to be evil men. He said he couldn't judge. That he wasn't God. For Mailer to say he wasn't God was to display a degree of humility unusual for him. Vernon Frazer wrote: Thank you. Mailer was probing the extremes of experience, willfully exploring the taboo throughout his career. To get to the kind of knowledge he was seeking, one has to transgress morality. In fact, he laid the groundwork for most of it in "Advertisements for Myself." I judge a writer's writing, not his conduct. If I did otherwise, I'd eliminate Dostoevsky, Pound, Celine, Burroughs, and many others, and it would be my loss. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Andrew Jones Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:44 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Norman Mailer since when were writers the voice of morality? On Nov 12, 2007 4:39 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward the end of his life he wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only book of his I ever read all the way through was "Advertisements For Myself" which I liked at the time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it seemed dated. Anyway, one of his novels, I forget which one, has a passage in which the narrator gets a rush out of stabbing his wife to death. A couple of years ago I decided not to review an anthology in which the excerpt describing the stabbing and the rush appeared. It seemed immoral in the worst sense, especially since Mailer once did stab his real wife at the time who, masochist that she was, declined to press charges even though she was seriously injured. It may be that Mailer's other books or some of them justified the public's tolerance of his worst side as a person. I just don't know. Regards, Tom Savage > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: ch 11 news said mailer wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the > naked and the dead his book about the > march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell > > writes: > > My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: > > > > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next > > > > Ann Bogle wrote: > > > > > > > > Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines > > about > > Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics > > stance; where > > does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows > > upon Grace > > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from > > Armies > > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that > > anthology of > > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. > > Probably certain > > professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler > > followed us > > past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the > > information > > that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. > > When? we > > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes > > were so serious > > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where > > I > > live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual > > property > > chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or > > Updike. AMB > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: <266309.48586.qm@web52406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unlike Dostoyevsky, Pound, Celine, Burroughs--Mailer never really did any "= hard time" (prison, exile, institutions) in any way for anything in life. As the article noted, he was a pampered child, and was pampered throughout = his career. I've read most of his work, with the exception of the late novels, seen the= films, and met him etc. I don't believe in saying anything bad of the recently deceased, if I can h= elp it.=20 His work and life --excepting combat in WW2--was almost always being done i= n a safe distance following after others had done the dangerous parts and p= aid the price. By dangerous I include also taking risks in writing, ideas,= politics, art. The stabbed wife being written about here recently was in fact the woman wh= o had been Jack Kerouac's lover and is the model for Mardou Fox in Kerouac'= s book The Subterraneans. She was variously described by others as "mulatt= o" or "light skinned,"--something bitterly ironic that she be stabbed by th= e author of "The White Negro". > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:42:00 -0800 > From: poet_in_hell@YAHOO.COM > Subject: Re: Norman Mailer > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Mailer could be an asshole, but possibly his worst moment came when he wa= s acting out of concern. He helped get Jack Henry Abbott out of prison. I t= hink Mailer saw Abbott as his=20 > Genet. Mailer was always coming up with pseudo existential sound bites.= I think Mailer wanted to be the literary equivalent of Sartre. He was fond= of the word evil. When he came to the National Press Club, I asked him if = he considered Gary Gilmore or Abbott to be evil men.=20 > He said he couldn't judge. That he wasn't God. For Mailer to say he was= n't God was to display a degree of humility unusual for him.=20 >=20 > Vernon Frazer wrote: > Thank you. Mailer was probing the extremes of experience, willfully > exploring the taboo throughout his career. To get to the kind of knowledg= e > he was seeking, one has to transgress morality. In fact, he laid the > groundwork for most of it in "Advertisements for Myself." I judge a write= r's > writing, not his conduct. If I did otherwise, I'd eliminate Dostoevsky, > Pound, Celine, Burroughs, and many others, and it would be my loss.=20 >=20 >=20 > Vernon=20 > http://vernonfrazer.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] O= n > Behalf Of Andrew Jones > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:44 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Norman Mailer >=20 > since when were writers the voice of morality? >=20 > On Nov 12, 2007 4:39 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > > Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward the end of his lif= e > he wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only book of his I ever > read all the way through was "Advertisements For Myself" which I liked at > the time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it seemed dated. Anyway, > one of his novels, I forget which one, has a passage in which the narrato= r > gets a rush out of stabbing his wife to death. A couple of years ago I > decided not to review an anthology in which the excerpt describing the > stabbing and the rush appeared. It seemed immoral in the worst sense, > especially since Mailer once did stab his real wife at the time who, > masochist that she was, declined to press charges even though she was > seriously injured. It may be that Mailer's other books or some of them > justified the public's tolerance of his worst side as a person. I just > don't know. Regards, Tom Savage > > > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: ch 11 news said mailer > wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the > > naked and the dead his book about the > > march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage > > > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell > > > > writes: > > > My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: > > > > > > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > > broke up two years later. > > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > > grandchildren. > > > < Previous Page > > > 1 > > > 2 > > > 3 > > > 4 > > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > > broke up two years later. > > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > > grandchildren. > > > < Previous Page > > > 1 > > > 2 > > > 3 > > > 4 > > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > > broke up two years later. > > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > > grandchildren. > > > < Previous Page > > > 1 > > > 2 > > > 3 > > > 4 > > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > > broke up two years later. > > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > > grandchildren. > > > < Previous Page > > > 1 > > > 2 > > > 3 > > > 4 > > > Next > > > > > > Ann Bogle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines > > > about > > > Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics > > > stance; where > > > does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows > > > upon Grace > > > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from > > > Armies > > > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that > > > anthology of > > > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. > > > Probably certain > > > professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler > > > followed us > > > past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the > > > information > > > that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. > > > When? we > > > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes > > > were so serious > > > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where > > > I > > > live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual > > > property > > > chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or > > > Updike. AMB > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > >=20 >=20 > =20 > --------------------------------- > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try = it now. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:34:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cheekc Subject: tnwk . . . . taking the show down Comments: To: UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU, british poets Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.thingsnotworthkeeping.com/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:36:54 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Jones Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline we drink them in eat of their vegetables On Nov 13, 2007 12:13 AM, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > Unlike Dostoyevsky, Pound, Celine, Burroughs--Mailer never really did any= "hard time" (prison, exile, institutions) in any way for anything in life. > As the article noted, he was a pampered child, and was pampered throughou= t his career. > I've read most of his work, with the exception of the late novels, seen t= he films, and met him etc. > I don't believe in saying anything bad of the recently deceased, if I can= help it. > His work and life --excepting combat in WW2--was almost always being done= in a safe distance following after others had done the dangerous parts and= paid the price. By dangerous I include also taking risks in writing, idea= s, politics, art. > The stabbed wife being written about here recently was in fact the woman = who had been Jack Kerouac's lover and is the model for Mardou Fox in Keroua= c's book The Subterraneans. She was variously described by others as "mula= tto" or "light skinned,"--something bitterly ironic that she be stabbed by = the author of "The White Negro". > > > > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:42:00 -0800 > > From: poet_in_hell@YAHOO.COM > > Subject: Re: Norman Mailer > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Mailer could be an asshole, but possibly his worst moment came when he = was acting out of concern. He helped get Jack Henry Abbott out of prison. I= think Mailer saw Abbott as his > > Genet. Mailer was always coming up with pseudo existential sound bite= s. I think Mailer wanted to be the literary equivalent of Sartre. He was fo= nd of the word evil. When he came to the National Press Club, I asked him i= f he considered Gary Gilmore or Abbott to be evil men. > > He said he couldn't judge. That he wasn't God. For Mailer to say he w= asn't God was to display a degree of humility unusual for him. > > > > Vernon Frazer wrote: > > Thank you. Mailer was probing the extremes of experience, willfully > > exploring the taboo throughout his career. To get to the kind of knowle= dge > > he was seeking, one has to transgress morality. In fact, he laid the > > groundwork for most of it in "Advertisements for Myself." I judge a wri= ter's > > writing, not his conduct. If I did otherwise, I'd eliminate Dostoevsky, > > Pound, Celine, Burroughs, and many others, and it would be my loss. > > > > > > Vernon > > http://vernonfrazer.com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]= On > > Behalf Of Andrew Jones > > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:44 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Norman Mailer > > > > since when were writers the voice of morality? > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 4:39 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > > > Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward the end of his l= ife > > he wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only book of his I eve= r > > read all the way through was "Advertisements For Myself" which I liked = at > > the time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it seemed dated. Anyway, > > one of his novels, I forget which one, has a passage in which the narra= tor > > gets a rush out of stabbing his wife to death. A couple of years ago I > > decided not to review an anthology in which the excerpt describing the > > stabbing and the rush appeared. It seemed immoral in the worst sense, > > especially since Mailer once did stab his real wife at the time who, > > masochist that she was, declined to press charges even though she was > > seriously injured. It may be that Mailer's other books or some of them > > justified the public's tolerance of his worst side as a person. I just > > don't know. Regards, Tom Savage > > > > > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: ch 11 news said mailer > > wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the > > > naked and the dead his book about the > > > march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage > > > > > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell > > > > > > writes: > > > > My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: > > > > > > > > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > > > broke up two years later. > > > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lad= y > > > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > > > grandchildren. > > > > < Previous Page > > > > 1 > > > > 2 > > > > 3 > > > > 4 > > > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > > > broke up two years later. > > > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lad= y > > > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > > > grandchildren. > > > > < Previous Page > > > > 1 > > > > 2 > > > > 3 > > > > 4 > > > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > > > broke up two years later. > > > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lad= y > > > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > > > grandchildren. > > > > < Previous Page > > > > 1 > > > > 2 > > > > 3 > > > > 4 > > > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > > > broke up two years later. > > > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lad= y > > > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > > > grandchildren. > > > > < Previous Page > > > > 1 > > > > 2 > > > > 3 > > > > 4 > > > > Next > > > > > > > > Ann Bogle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines > > > > about > > > > Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics > > > > stance; where > > > > does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows > > > > upon Grace > > > > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from > > > > Armies > > > > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that > > > > anthology of > > > > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. > > > > Probably certain > > > > professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler > > > > followed us > > > > past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the > > > > information > > > > that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. > > > > When? we > > > > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes > > > > were so serious > > > > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer wher= e > > > > I > > > > live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual > > > > property > > > > chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or > > > > Updike. AMB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Tr= y it now. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. G= et it now. > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL100= 626971033 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:46:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerrold Shiroma Subject: new e-books @ durationpress.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit new stuff for your reading pleasure... Kidnapped, by Brandon Brown Rude Girl, by John Sakkis No Can Do, by Alli Warren plus, if you haven't yet seen them: Momentary Songs, by George Albon & the first volume of durationpress.com's e-anthologies on poetics: towards a foreign likeness bent: translation do come visit...you'll be glad you did... http://www.durationpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:30:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cheekc Subject: tnwk r.i.p. apologies Comments: To: UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU, british poets Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit somewhat beyond my control the text indicating an end for tnwk has been "removed for further study" false alarm but watch that space ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:22:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: tnwk r.i.p. apologies In-Reply-To: <1D56B650-5065-4BE3-BDE3-8A113ABDD3EC@muohio.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline who kept it? On Nov 12, 2007 5:30 PM, cheekc wrote: > somewhat beyond my control > > the text indicating an end for tnwk has been "removed for further study" > > false alarm > > but watch that space > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:07:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Prosody Castle 3.3- Guerilla Art tour of Oakland. 11/18 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Urban Real(i)ty: a guerilla installation and performance event, featuring: Aimee Suzara Crude Lara Durback Danny King d scot miller Ayodele Nzinga 2AM Peter Spannagle Erika Staiti Chris Stroffolino Shawn Taylor Phill Weber Kwan Booth Prosody Castle hits the streets with a guerilla installation tour of out of the way Oakland. Original, word-based works appear in public places on or near the 18th- we take you to them before the city destroys them, giving you an early chance to see them evolve. The show will culminate in performances and viewings at the Gallery of Urban Art. Please join us on a Sunday afternoon, get in our van and enjoy the tour. Prosody Castle 3.3- Urban Real(i)ty Nov. 18th, 2pm. $5 start at The Gallery of Urban Art (1746 13th St. @ Wood- near Mandela Pkwy/West Oakland BART) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:05:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: Middlebury College MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (this is a forward. please don't respond to me. good luck!) Established poet with Ph.D. and ability to teach introductory and advanced poetry-writing workshops, courses on the theory and history of poetic forms, and British and international authors and literatures. Candidates should provide both evidence of excellence in teaching and continued poetic production. The appointment will be made at the appropriate level of seniority, based on qualifications. Send letter of application, vita, and three letters of reference to Cates Baldridge, Chair, Department of English, Middlebury College, Middlebury, VT, 05753. Materials should be postmarked by November 20th. Interviews will take place at the MLA Convention in Chicago and finalists will be invited to campus. Phone: 802-443-5330 Fax: 802-443-2450 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 06:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: Behind the Lines on Veterans Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGFzIHRoaXMgZ29uZSB0aHJvdWdoIHRvIHRoZSBsaXN0PyAgSSdsbCB0cnkgYWdhaW46DQoN CmZyb20gQmVoaW5kdGhlbGluZXNwb2V0cnkgYmxvZzoNCg0KRm9sbG93aW5nIHRoZSB0cmFk aXRpb24gb2YgYW50aS13YXIgdmV0ZXJhbnMsIElyYXEgV2FyIHZldGVyYW5zLCBsaWtlIHRo ZSBWaWV0bmFtIFZldGVyYW5zIEFnYWluc3QgdGhlIFdhciBiZWZvcmUgdGhlbSwgaGF2ZSBz dGFnZWQgZGVtb25zdHJhdGlvbnMgb24gdGhlIEFtZXJpY2FuIGhvbWVmcm9udCwgZHJhbWF0 aXppbmcgZm9yIGNpdmlsaWFucyB3aGF0IGl0IG1pZ2h0IGxvb2sgbGlrZSB0byBsaXZlIHVu ZGVyIGZvcmVpZ24gbWlsaXRhcnkgb2NjdXBhdGlvbi4gT24gdGhpcyBWZXRlcmFucyBEYXks IEkgd2FudCB0byByZW1lbWJlciB0aG9zZSB3aG8gZGllZCBzZXJ2aW5nIG91ciBjb3VudHJ5 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Wish I could be there! If anyone attends, might you send a report to list or b/c.? ------------------------------ From: colectivochocolatero@gmail.com Subject: The Last Supper The Last Supper Nicol=E1s Dumit Est=E9vez Thursday, November 15, 2007 5:30 pm. =96 7:30 pm. Collector's Room, U.S Custom House, One Bowling Green (enter at National Museum of the American Indian) www.lmcc.net http://lmcc.net/art/residencies/tenyear/pilgrim/index.html Space is limited. Please come early. Twelve artists/curators gather at one table with Nicol=E1s Dumit Est=E9vez = in a reflection of the relationship of art to ritual. This is the culminating event of For Art's Sake, a series of pilgrimages conceived of, and undertaken by Est=E9vez over the past three years. Evoking the pilgrimage o= f El Camino de Santiago de Compostela in Spain where Catholic devotees travel to the reliquary of St. James the Apostle, Est=E9vez's secular twist has ta= ken him on pilgrimages to museums in the New York metropolitan area, each time with a new penance =96 on his knees, walking backwards, spreading the "word= of art". The guests at the table bring their own audio-visual and performative double-take on these journeys. Participants include Nao Bustamante, Deborah Cullen, Olivia Georgia, Alanna Lockward, Yasmin Ramirez, Olivia Aldin standing in for Linda Montano, Tom Finkelpearl, Claire Tancons, Sara Reisman, Juliana Driever, Alexander Campos and Rocio Aranda The Last Supper is part of the celebration of ten years of Lower Manhattan Cultural Council's Workspace Residency and part of the Centennial Celebration of Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House. Est=E9vez developed Fo= r Art's Sake while in residence at Lower Manhattan Cultural Council in 2004 i= n collaboration with Franklin Furnace. Nicol=E1s Dumit Est=E9vez is an interdisciplinary artist who has exhibited = and performed extensively in the US as well as internationally at venues such a= s Madrid Abierto/ ARCO, The IX Havanna Biennial, and others. Awards include the PS1/MoMA National Studio Program, the Lambent Fellowship Program of Tides Foundation, the Michael Richards Fund of LMCC and the Franklin Furnac= e Fund for Performance Art. His work has been reviewed in The New York Times, NYArts Magazine, and in major publications in Mexico, Spain, Cuba and the Dominican Republic. He has been commissioned to create a public interventio= n for the MacDowell Colony Centennial Celebration in 2007. Born in Santiago d= e los Treinta Caballeros, Dominican Republic, Est=E9vez lives and works in th= e South Bronx. Past Pilgrimages For the first journey on March 20, 2005, Est=E9vez was heavily laden with donated art publications strapped to his back for a trip that took him from the heart of the world's financial capital in Lower Manhattan to East Harlem. El Museo del Barrio's Director Juli=E1n Zugazagoitia commemorated t= he performance by signing Est=E9vez's passport. For his second pilgrimage on June 28 and 29, 2005, Est=E9vez forged his way walking backwards from LMCC downtown to The Bronx Museum of the Arts, spending the night on a hard bed of art catalogues provided by Longwood Art= s Project, Bronx Council on the Arts. The strenuous two-day journey came to a= n end when the Director of The Bronx Museum of the Arts, Olivia Georgia, officially greeted him at the door and signed his passport. During his third journey of the series on Sunday, December 4, 2005, Est=E9v= ez walked from LMCC to the Studio Museum in Harlem (SMH) dressed in austere black and white raiment and wearing a heavy iron crown embellished with seven admission buttons from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Upon his arrival at SMH, Director of Education and Public Programs, Sandra Jackson lifted the crown off his shoulders and signed the passport, thus confirming that the journey was successfully completed. For the fourth pilgrimage on February 2, 2006, Est=E9vez traveled by foot a= nd ferry from the offices of LMCC in Lower Manhattan to the Jersey City Museum= , stopping at educational and cultural organizations along the route: an Episcopal church, an all-boys Catholic school and a public school, to "Spread the Word" about performance art and the penances that he has been undertaking. Following Estevez' arrival at the Jersey City Museum, Marion Grzesiak, Executive Director, recorded her signature in the passport. As part of the fifth penance on October 28, 2006, Est=E9vez traveled on his knees from the offices of LMCC on Maiden Lane to the Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian (NMAI) at Bowling Green. In this occasion he carried in his hands a piece of casabe, a type of bread prepared from the indigenous cassavaroot, thus transporting a legacy of the Caribbean Ta=EDno culture that was presented as a gift to the host institution. Peter Brill, NMAI's Assistant Director for Exhibitions, Public Programs and Public Spaces, signed the passport. For the sixth penance he journeyed from LMCC, to the Queens Museum of Art, stopping at several sites to give presentations entitled Seven Lives, through which he introduce his audiences to the works of seven consecrated performance artists. Tom Finkelpearl, Executive Director of the Queens Museum vouched for the completion of the pilgrimage by signing the passport= . For the seventh and final pilgrimage on October 26, 2007, entitled "Be my Shepherd: On My Way to the Lower East Side Tenement Museum," Est=E9vez traveled by foot from the offices of the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council, carrying a small suitcase with a change of clothes, toiletries, food and water, in the event that what would be otherwise be a short stroll to a nearby neighborhood in the City takes one or more long detours. He relies solely on verbal or written directions from passersby to help him reach his final destination: the Lower East Side Tenement Museum. A component of Est=E9vez' penances consists of a handmade devotional guide created at the Center for Book Arts in collaboration with artists Ana Cordeiro and Amber McMillan. For information about this publication visit www.centerforbookarts.org For Arts Sake was hosted by Lower Manhattan Cultural Council and Franklin Furnace 125 Maiden Lane, 2nd Floor New York, NY 10038 (212) 219-9401 Fax: (212) 219-2058 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: <266309.48586.qm@web52406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mailer's street smarts obviously didn't match his intellectual probing = and Jack Abbott provided embarrassing proof. I saw a photo of Abbott in one = of the men's magazines that interviewed him and saw the eyes of a = cold-blooded killer. But at one time I was a welfare worker and the two of the = clients who threatened my life were arrested for The third guy got arrested for aggravated assault. I learned what to look for. Mailer's failure to spot this quality in Abbott was na=EFve, idiotic, and ultimately deadly. So = much for his personal success at becoming a "white negro." I have stronger = words from the street that would describe my opinion about the Abbott disaster more accurately, but I want to get this posted.=20 Vernon=20 http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of steve russell Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 5:42 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Norman Mailer Mailer could be an asshole, but possibly his worst moment came when he = was acting out of concern. He helped get Jack Henry Abbott out of prison. I think Mailer saw Abbott as his=20 Genet. Mailer was always coming up with pseudo existential sound = bites. I think Mailer wanted to be the literary equivalent of Sartre. He was fond = of the word evil. When he came to the National Press Club, I asked him if = he considered Gary Gilmore or Abbott to be evil men.=20 He said he couldn't judge. That he wasn't God. For Mailer to say he = wasn't God was to display a degree of humility unusual for him.=20 Vernon Frazer wrote: Thank you. Mailer was probing the extremes of experience, willfully exploring the taboo throughout his career. To get to the kind of = knowledge he was seeking, one has to transgress morality. In fact, he laid the groundwork for most of it in "Advertisements for Myself." I judge a = writer's writing, not his conduct. If I did otherwise, I'd eliminate Dostoevsky, Pound, Celine, Burroughs, and many others, and it would be my loss.=20 Vernon=20 http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Andrew Jones Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:44 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Norman Mailer since when were writers the voice of morality? On Nov 12, 2007 4:39 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward the end of his = life he wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only book of his I ever read all the way through was "Advertisements For Myself" which I liked = at the time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it seemed dated. Anyway, one of his novels, I forget which one, has a passage in which the = narrator gets a rush out of stabbing his wife to death. A couple of years ago I decided not to review an anthology in which the excerpt describing the stabbing and the rush appeared. It seemed immoral in the worst sense, especially since Mailer once did stab his real wife at the time who, masochist that she was, declined to press charges even though she was seriously injured. It may be that Mailer's other books or some of them justified the public's tolerance of his worst side as a person. I just don't know. Regards, Tom Savage > > "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: ch 11 news said mailer wom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the > naked and the dead his book about the > march on washington and the pentagon in 1968 so much for reportage > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -0800 steve russell > > writes: > > My memory isn't so good. From David Chirot's NY Times link: > > > > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele > > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident > > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's > > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of > > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but > > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released > > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage > > broke up two years later. > > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie > > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of > > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His > > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady > > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz > > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death. > > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and > > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in > > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant > > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom > > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne, > > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen > > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John > > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son, > > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10 > > grandchildren. > > < Previous Page > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > Next > > > > Ann Bogle wrote: > > > > > > > > Could someone who knows something about it, please tap a few lines > > about > > Norman Mailer's work & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics > > stance; where > > does he fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows > > upon Grace > > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from > > Armies > > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in that > > anthology of > > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let us read Mailer. > > Probably certain > > professors drank over it. When I was recently in NY, a panhandler > > followed us > > past the farmer's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the > > information > > that Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue. > > When? we > > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes > > were so serious > > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like an air-boxer where > > I > > live, and instead of writing, hoped the smoke up my intellectual > > property > > chimney, almost Melvillian, would go to Mailer, not to Roth or > > Updike. AMB > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > =20 --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try = it now. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:45:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Suzanne Burns Subject: Re: POETRY MANUSCRIPT CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Nov 1, 2007 12:35 PM, Nick LoLordo wrote: > I knew it wasn't a joke but wanted to ask if it was........ > > Nick > Word. Yagottabekidding. Word. Word. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:30:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: I could use a little help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I could use a little help I've got an invitation to read in the wonderful Nye Beach Writers Series in Newport, Oregon, on Saturday, Sept. 20, of ‘08. Now I need to find a couple additional readings in the area to help pay the expenses of getting there from Chicago. Anyone around Portland, Corvallis, Eugene etc. with campus connections or other suggestions, your assistance will be greatly appreciated. If you have any suggestions or questions, just drop me a note off list. Many thanks, Charlie -- www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:32:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Norman Mailer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it was so obvious, how come the parole board couldn't tell? It's not as = if Mailer was empowered to put Jack Abbott on the street all by himself. Yo= urs is the reasoning of cops who plant fake evidence on people tghey just "= know" are guilty and "you'd have to be an idiot not to see it."=0A=0A=0A---= -- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Vernon Frazer =0ATo= : POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, 13 November, 2007 2:27:01 P= M=0ASubject: Re: Norman Mailer=0A=0AMailer's street smarts obviously didn't= match his intellectual probing and=0AJack Abbott provided embarrassing pro= of. I saw a photo of Abbott in one of=0Athe men's magazines that interviewe= d him and saw the eyes of a cold-blooded=0Akiller. But at one time I was a = welfare worker and the two of the clients=0Awho threatened my life were arr= ested for The third guy got arrested for=0Aaggravated assault. I learned wh= at to look for. Mailer's failure to spot=0Athis quality in Abbott was na=C3= =AFve, idiotic, and ultimately deadly. So much=0Afor his personal success a= t becoming a "white negro." I have stronger words=0Afrom the street that wo= uld describe my opinion about the Abbott disaster=0Amore accurately, but I = want to get this posted. =0A=0AVernon =0Ahttp://vernonfrazer.com=0A=0A=0A= =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:P= OETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0ABehalf Of steve russell=0ASent: Monday, N= ovember 12, 2007 5:42 PM=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: = Norman Mailer=0A=0AMailer could be an asshole, but possibly his worst momen= t came when he was=0Aacting out of concern. He helped get Jack Henry Abbott= out of prison. I=0Athink Mailer saw Abbott as his =0A Genet. Mailer was a= lways coming up with pseudo existential sound bites. I=0Athink Mailer wante= d to be the literary equivalent of Sartre. He was fond of=0Athe word evil. = When he came to the National Press Club, I asked him if he=0Aconsidered Gar= y Gilmore or Abbott to be evil men. =0A He said he couldn't judge. That he= wasn't God. For Mailer to say he wasn't=0AGod was to display a degree of h= umility unusual for him. =0A=0AVernon Frazer wrote:= =0A Thank you. Mailer was probing the extremes of experience, willfully=0A= exploring the taboo throughout his career. To get to the kind of knowledge= =0Ahe was seeking, one has to transgress morality. In fact, he laid the=0Ag= roundwork for most of it in "Advertisements for Myself." I judge a writer's= =0Awriting, not his conduct. If I did otherwise, I'd eliminate Dostoevsky,= =0APound, Celine, Burroughs, and many others, and it would be my loss. =0A= =0A=0AVernon =0Ahttp://vernonfrazer.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message= -----=0AFrom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.= EDU] On=0ABehalf Of Andrew Jones=0ASent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:44 PM= =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Norman Mailer=0A=0Asince= when were writers the voice of morality?=0A=0AOn Nov 12, 2007 4:39 PM, Tho= mas savage wrote:=0A> Was Norman Mailer really such a great writer? Toward = the end of his life=0Ahe wrote a book of poems which was terrible. The only= book of his I ever=0Aread all the way through was "Advertisements For Myse= lf" which I liked at=0Athe time. When I looked at it a few years ago, it se= emed dated. Anyway,=0Aone of his novels, I forget which one, has a passage = in which the narrator=0Agets a rush out of stabbing his wife to death. A co= uple of years ago I=0Adecided not to review an anthology in which the excer= pt describing the=0Astabbing and the rush appeared. It seemed immoral in th= e worst sense,=0Aespecially since Mailer once did stab his real wife at the= time who,=0Amasochist that she was, declined to press charges even though = she was=0Aseriously injured. It may be that Mailer's other books or some of= them=0Ajustified the public's tolerance of his worst side as a person. I j= ust=0Adon't know. Regards, Tom Savage=0A>=0A> "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote:= ch 11 news said mailer=0Awom a pulitzer for executioner's song and the=0A>= naked and the dead his book about the=0A> march on washington and the pent= agon in 1968 so much for reportage=0A>=0A> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:38 -08= 00 steve russell=0A>=0A> writes:=0A> > My memory isn't so good. From David = Chirot's NY Times link:=0A> >=0A> > In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed hi= s second wife, Adele=0A> > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her= . The incident=0A> > happened at the end of an all-night party announcing M= r. Mailer's=0A> > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, li= ke many of=0A> > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arre= sted, but=0A> > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually r= eleased=0A> > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The ma= rriage=0A> > broke up two years later.=0A> > All told, Mr. Mailer was marri= ed six times, counting a quickie=0A> > with Carol Stevens, whom he married = and divorced within a couple of=0A> > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to t= heir daughter, Maggie. His=0A> > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman = and Ms. Morales, were Lady=0A> > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Bea= verbrook; Beverly Rentz=0A> > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was = living at his death.=0A> > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mail= er entered into a=0A> > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's = liberation, and=0A> > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town H= all in=0A> > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He = meant=0A> > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of = whom=0A> > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Ann= e,=0A> > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen= =0A> > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John= =0A> > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son,=0A> > Mat= thew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10=0A> > grandchildren.= =0A> > < Previous Page=0A> > 1=0A> > 2=0A> > 3=0A> > 4=0A> > Next In Novemb= er 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele=0A> > Morales, with a pe= nknife, seriously wounding her. The incident=0A> > happened at the end of a= n all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's=0A> > intention to run in the 196= 1 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of=0A> > his guests, had been drinkin= g heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but=0A> > his wife declined to press ch= arges, and he was eventually released=0A> > after being sent to Bellevue Ho= spital for observation. The marriage=0A> > broke up two years later.=0A> > = All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counting a quickie=0A> > with C= arol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within a couple of=0A> > days in= 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggie. His=0A> > other wives,= in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, were Lady=0A> > Jeanne Campb= ell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz=0A> > Bentley; and No= rris Church, with whom he was living at his death.=0A> > Lady Campbell died= in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a=0A> > long feud with femini= sts and proponents of women's liberation, and=0A> > in a famous 1971 debate= with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in=0A> > Manhattan he declared himself an= "enemy of birth control." He meant=0A> > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mai= ler had nine children, all of whom=0A> > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverm= an; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne,=0A> > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbe= ll; Michael Burks and Stephen=0A> > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandr= a, by Ms. Stevens; and John=0A> > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving ar= e an adopted son,=0A> > Matthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, an= d 10=0A> > grandchildren.=0A> > < Previous Page=0A> > 1=0A> > 2=0A> > 3=0A>= > 4=0A> > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabbed his second wife, Adele= =0A> > Morales, with a penknife, seriously wounding her. The incident=0A> >= happened at the end of an all-night party announcing Mr. Mailer's=0A> > in= tention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and he, like many of=0A> > his= guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was arrested, but=0A> > his = wife declined to press charges, and he was eventually released=0A> > after = being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. The marriage=0A> > broke u= p two years later.=0A> > All told, Mr. Mailer was married six times, counti= ng a quickie=0A> > with Carol Stevens, whom he married and divorced within = a couple of=0A> > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy to their daughter, Maggi= e. His=0A> > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silverman and Ms. Morales, wer= e Lady=0A> > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lord Beaverbrook; Beverly Re= ntz=0A> > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he was living at his death.= =0A> > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr. Mailer entered into a=0A= > > long feud with feminists and proponents of women's liberation, and=0A> = > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at Town Hall in=0A> > Manhatt= an he declared himself an "enemy of birth control." He meant=0A> > it. By h= is various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, all of whom=0A> > survive h= im: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabeth Anne,=0A> > by Ms. Mora= les; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Stephen=0A> > McLeod, by Ms.= Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and John=0A> > Buffalo, by Ms. = Church. Also surviving are an adopted son,=0A> > Matthew, by an earlier mar= riage of Ms. Norris's, and 10=0A> > grandchildren.=0A> > < Previous Page=0A= > > 1=0A> > 2=0A> > 3=0A> > 4=0A> > Next In November 1960, Mr. Mailer stabb= ed his second wife, Adele=0A> > Morales, with a penknife, seriously woundin= g her. The incident=0A> > happened at the end of an all-night party announc= ing Mr. Mailer's=0A> > intention to run in the 1961 mayoral campaign, and h= e, like many of=0A> > his guests, had been drinking heavily. Mr. Mailer was= arrested, but=0A> > his wife declined to press charges, and he was eventua= lly released=0A> > after being sent to Bellevue Hospital for observation. T= he marriage=0A> > broke up two years later.=0A> > All told, Mr. Mailer was = married six times, counting a quickie=0A> > with Carol Stevens, whom he mar= ried and divorced within a couple of=0A> > days in 1980 to grant legitimacy= to their daughter, Maggie. His=0A> > other wives, in addition to Ms. Silve= rman and Ms. Morales, were Lady=0A> > Jeanne Campbell, granddaughter of Lor= d Beaverbrook; Beverly Rentz=0A> > Bentley; and Norris Church, with whom he= was living at his death.=0A> > Lady Campbell died in June.In the 1970s Mr.= Mailer entered into a=0A> > long feud with feminists and proponents of wom= en's liberation, and=0A> > in a famous 1971 debate with Germaine Greer at T= own Hall in=0A> > Manhattan he declared himself an "enemy of birth control.= " He meant=0A> > it. By his various wives, Mr. Mailer had nine children, al= l of whom=0A> > survive him: Susan, by Ms. Silverman; Danielle and Elizabet= h Anne,=0A> > by Ms. Morales; Kate, by Lady Campbell; Michael Burks and Ste= phen=0A> > McLeod, by Ms. Bentley; Maggie Alexandra, by Ms. Stevens; and Jo= hn=0A> > Buffalo, by Ms. Church. Also surviving are an adopted son,=0A> > M= atthew, by an earlier marriage of Ms. Norris's, and 10=0A> > grandchildren.= =0A> > < Previous Page=0A> > 1=0A> > 2=0A> > 3=0A> > 4=0A> > Next=0A> >=0A>= > Ann Bogle wrote:=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > Could someone who knows somethi= ng about it, please tap a few lines=0A> > about=0A> > Norman Mailer's work = & legacy? I want to hear it from a poetics=0A> > stance; where=0A> > does h= e fit in a Stein or Hemingway continuum? His death follows=0A> > upon Grace= =0A> > Paley's like a grieved husband's. They were both 84. I've read from= =0A> > Armies=0A> > of the Night & think its prose was amongst the best in = that=0A> > anthology of=0A> > postmodernism. Of course, schools didn't let = us read Mailer.=0A> > Probably certain=0A> > professors drank over it. When= I was recently in NY, a panhandler=0A> > followed us=0A> > past the farmer= 's market at St. Mark's and pressed upon us the=0A> > information=0A> > tha= t Norman Mailer had stabbed at his wife and gone to Bellevue.=0A> > When? w= e=0A> > asked him. The panhandler got some of our coins because his eyes=0A= > > were so serious=0A> > -- he looked like an aged boxer. I had fumed like= an air-boxer where=0A> > I=0A> > live, and instead of writing, hoped the s= moke up my intellectual=0A> > property=0A> > chimney, almost Melvillian, wo= uld go to Mailer, not to Roth or=0A> > Updike. AMB=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > = ************************************** See what's new at=0A> > http://www.a= ol.com=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > __________________________________________________= =0A> > Do You Yahoo!?=0A> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam pr= otection around=0A> > http://mail.yahoo.com=0A> >=0A> >=0A>=0A>=0A> _______= ___________________________________________=0A> Do You Yahoo!?=0A> Tired of= spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=0A> http://mail.yaho= o.com=0A>=0A=0A=0A =0A---------------------------------=0ABe a better = sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it=0Anow. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:38:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Subject: UbuWeb Featured Resources: November 2007 - Selected by Christof Migone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit UbuWeb http://ubu.com UbuWeb Featured Resources: November 2007 Selected by Christof Migone 1. Brion Gysin "I Am" Machine-poem (1960) http://ubu.artmob.ca/sound/gysin_brion/Gysin-Brion_I-Am.mp3 2. Janet Zweig "Mind Over Matter" http://www.ubu.com/contemp/zweig/zweig1.html 3. Gregory Whitehead "Pressures of the Unspeakable" http://mediamogul.seas.upenn.edu/pennsound/authors/Whitehead/Gregory_Whitehead-We_All_Scream_Alone_1992.mp3 4. R. Henry Nigl "Shout Art "http://media.sas.upenn.edu/pennsound/authors/Nigl/R-Henry-Nigl_Shout-%20Art.mp3 5. Sam Taylor Wood, from "Stoppage" http://ubu.artmob.ca/sound/stoppage/Stoppage_05.mp3 6. François Dufrêne, "Tenu-tenu" Crirythme (1958) http://ubu.artmob.ca/sound/dufrene_francois/Dufrene-Francois_Tenu-tenu.mp3 7. John Giorno "I Don't Need It, I Don't Want It, and You Cheated Me Out of It" http://ubu.artmob.ca/sound/dial_a_poem_poets/guy/Youre-The-Guy_06_dont_need_it.mp3 8. Georgina Dobson & Cupboard Simon "The Message" http://ubu.wfmu.org/sound/365/08/365-Days-Project-08-01-dobson-georgina-and-simon-cupboard-the-message-1996.mp3 9. Louis-Ferdinand Céline "Television Interview" (1961) http://www.ubu.com/film/celine.html 10. Adrian Piper "Here and Now" http://www.ubu.com/concept/piper_here.html Special Offsite Bonus: Kelly Mark "I Really Should" http://www.ireallyshould.com/irs50.html (http://www.ireallyshould.com/irsCD.html Audio CD) Extra, offsite: Santiago Sierra "11 PEOPLE PAID TO LEARN A PHRASE" http://www.santiago-sierra.com/200101_1024.htm Christof Migone teaches graduate seminars on sound, silence, performative writing, and failure at Concordia University in Montreal. He co-edited http://www.errantbodies.org/writingaloud.htmlWriting Aloud: The Sonics of Language (http://www.errantbodies.org/Errant Bodies Press, 2001). His first book, http://lequartanier.com/catalogue/premiere.htmla première phrase et le dernier mot (http://lequartanier.com/Le Quartanier, 2004) synopsized his library. The second, http://lequartanier.com/catalogue/tue.htmTue (Le Quartanier, 2007) obsessed over the second person singular pronoun. His audio, performance, and video work is documented in http://www.errantbodies.org/soundvoiceperform.htmlSound Voice Perform (Errant Bodies Press, 2005), and http://www.galerie.uqam.ca/galerie/publication/ouvrages/2006_migone.htmTrou (Galerie de l'UQAM, 2006). UbuWeb http://ubu.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:13:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: poetry in the bathroom: the toilet, the tub, and more... the tiny tour continues with rollers, feathers, showercaps... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dorothea Lasky's TINY TOUR continues! this time it's Dorothea Lasky, Stan Mir, Larua Solomon, and CAConrad details here: http://www.birdinsnow.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:01:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Norman Mailer In-Reply-To: <962983.5874.qm@web86015.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Turning the channel to see what movie on during Keith Oberman when got in last night and found Sean Hannity introducing a clip of himself and his old "good friend" "Norman" having a discussion on the stupidity of the American electorate according to N.M. Mailer's thesis was that when language ceased to grow, democracy began to fail. It wasn't clear how language grows, nor quite how it was being diminished, other than this was taken for granted. "Dumbing down" being the term both agreed upon. Mailer did concede to Sean that some Republicans are not stupid at all. He named Rove and Rumsfield as examples. It was one of those conversations in which an idea with some potential is introduced by one person--in this case a writer, who it is assumed would be very concerned about language ceasing to grow--and the effects of this--and then the idea itself is allowed to cease to develop, because the writer seems to take it for granted that all he has to do is say something for it to be so. Not unlike the Rovian thesis that an Imperial Power creates its own reality. Mailer had a propensity for the over simplification of ideas, followed by their massive inflation, much like taking a few stills from a film and enlarging them to billboard size and claiming that they stood for some Great Existential Truth. (About America, most of the time.) Written about a quarter century apart, there's a weird trajectory of his Marilyn and Oswald books which brings them both into extreme closeup sharp focus with the figure of John F Kennedy, and, for Marilyn, with Bobby also. Instead of the Kennedys being the "wobbling pivot" at the center of proliferating conspiracy effects spiraling out into galaxies, they become the lynch pins which steady and explain everything. Like Vincent Bugliosi, Pozner, and a number of other recent authors of equally massive door-stopping tomes dealing with the "lone assassin," Mailer finds no conspiracy whatsoever, only a tiny, tawdry, incompetent and quasi-impotent man jealous of a virile President. With Mailer i used to wonder if he wasn't always playing to a very select and fixed audience, into which he could bring ideas from "outside" as though they were really almost his own, or, made "better" (in class terms as well) and actually his own by being expressed through him and his "analyses," and so he could be hailed as not only the Great American Novelist but also a Great Thinker, Hipster, Journalist, Politician, etc. A Renaissance Man in fact. He was always playing the Bad Boy for the Hamptons crowd and the New York Review of Books. If one follows many of his "moves," they tend to be well after others had cleared the way. The Beats made the Hipster possible, Sartre and Genet (Cocteau being left out of the equation) made the Author/Philosopher and the writer/criminal/martyr/saint possible, Capote, Wolfe and Hunter Thompson made the Novelist/Journalist possible, Hemingway made the brawling Great Writer possible and etc etc etc. Susan Sontag made some films, so, voila, Norman did also. Whatever he did, he had a guaranteed audience and press for, always treating him like their enfant terrible, always treating his "existential" and "psychological" "insights" as signs of genius and his every word a sign post towards the Great American Novel he was going to produce some day. A strange aspect of the Abbott case, is that Mailer seemed to think, like certain schools of thought in the prison system, that a person like Abbott can really be "changed," "saved," by the good will of others. I imagine Abbott saw a golden opportunity in Mailer, the perfect mark. All he had to do was play along for a while with Mailer's vision of Abbott, then the actual Abbott could go on about the business of being Abbott rather than someone else's projection on to him. In a sense it is a revolt of a person--let alone a person supposed to be a writer themselves-- against becoming a character in someone else's drama,someone else's narrative and its need for this particular type of role to be played to fulfill that writer's vision of his own destiny. Just because one practices what one considers a form of immense largesse does not mean that a bite will not come back on to the hand that presumes to feed it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:03:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Scan Sonnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Scan Sonnet Consider a scan without memory or data-base; each element of a scene ap- pears independently, disconnected - chosen elements and their aura exist in a now blurred by organism and technology. Isn't this the proper view of eternity, holstered and silenced forever? Consider a scan of the address or token of a scene element, and the total- ity of such scans, re/creating a database of pointers towards an imaginary real. In spite of ordering, their contents are empty. This is the proper order of mass-consumption, enumerated and imminent. Between consumption and eternity lies the wasteland. To perceive is to process is to scan. To scan is to remember. To remember constitutes both address and content. To remember is protocol. If I am ill and am constituted by fever, what am I scanning? If I am de- pressed, what am I thinking? Where are the ghosts of the real? In fever I say: the real is always haunted. And in depression: Haunting is the real. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:35:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Vancouver WA conf on digital writing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Here's info on a conference concerning digital writing to be held in Vancouver Washington (near Portland) Thursday, May 29-Sunday, June 1, 2008 http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/programs/dtc/elo08/proposal.html http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/programs/dtc/elo08/media.html The deadline I believe is Nov 30. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:51:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: Beard of Bees Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beard of Bees is pleased to share with you an elegant diatribe: http://www.beardofbees.com/maloutas.html Best, Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:22:50 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: calling noah eli gordon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Noah, Could you backchannel me please I seem to have lost your current email address Thanks, Pam _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. http://au.yahoo.com/worldsbestmail/viagra/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 05:30:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Timothy Yu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PFS Post has been given a facelift, with a new "description" and four fine poems from Chicago/Toronto poet Timothy Yu. Check it out at: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com Books!!!! "Opera Bufa" http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210 "Beams" http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-af.pdf --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:31:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: BEN FRIEDLANDER & DANA WARD @ SEGUE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BENJAMIN FRIEDLANDER and DANA WARD Saturday November 17, 4:00-6:00 p.m. Segue Series at Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, one block above Houston $6 goes to support the readers Benjamin Friedlander is the author of several books of poetry, most recentl= y The Missing Occasion of Saying Yes (Subpress, 2007). His edition of Rober= t Creeley=92s Selected Poems 1945-2005 is forthcoming from the University o= f California Press. He is currently completing a book on Emily Dickinson an= d the Civil War. Dana Ward is the author of The Wrong Tree (Dusie, 2007), Goodnight Voice (H= ouse Press, 2007) and other chapbooks. OMG recently published an edition of= For Paris in Prison with images by the artist Matthew Hughes Boyko _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:46:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: Baus & Lasky in Berkeley this Friday In-Reply-To: <676A938C-814C-4C13-96C2-249814627BA0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric Baus and Dorothea Lasky Friday November 16, 2007 07:30PM=20 Pegasus Books 2349 Shattuck Ave.=20 Berkeley, CA more info: http://claytonbanes.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= 6971033= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:32:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Truscott Subject: 29 November: Avasilichioaei and Carr at Test (Toronto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed 29 November 2007, 8:00 p.m. OANA AVASILICHIOAEI and ANGELA CARR (bios below) at the Test Reading Series Mercer Union, A Centre for Contemporary Art 37 Lisgar Street, Toronto Free (donations toward the running of the series gratefully accepted) Contextual information about the readers and a map are available at www.testreading.org. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts and the League of Canadian poets for this reading. Hope to see you there, Mark ***************************** OANA AVASILICHIOAEI is a poet and a translator from Romanian and French to English. Her first book of poetry, Abandon (Wolsak & Wynn), appeared in 2005. Her translation of a selected poems of the Romanian poet Nichita Stanescu, Occupational Sickness (BuschekBooks), appeared in 2006. Excerpts from a work just completed, feria: a poempark, have appeared or will appear in several journals, such as the Capilano Review, Event and NO (USA), throughout 2007. She curates and coordinates the Atwater Poetry Project reading series in Montreal and has given readings, performances and talks in Canada, the USA and Europe. She lives in Montreal. ANGELA CARR is the author of Ropewalk (Snare Books, 2006). Her recent project is a translation of the concordance to the Roman de la Rose of Guillaume de Lorris. Selections from this work will be published in the Capilano Review and in dANDelion's "radical translation" issue this fall. She lives and works in Montreal. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:18:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sara marcus Subject: Sun. 11/18 afternoon reading (Brooklyn): Jess Arndt, Kathe Burkhart, Frances Richard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A reading by *Jess Arndt, Kathe Burkhart, and Frances Richard* * Sunday, November 18, 2007, 3:00 pm * Cosponsored by Dumbo Arts Center and Dixon Place In connection with the Dumbo Arts Center exhibition "Sex in the City" ________________________________ Dumbo Arts Center 30 Washington Street Brooklyn, NY 11201 T. 718.694.0831 gallery@dumboartscenter.org www.dumboartscenter.org Directions: Subway: A or C train to High Street, cross the park, left on Washington Street or F train to York Street, right on Jay, toward Bridges, right on Washington Street or Bus B61 to York/Gold Street -- QT: Queer Readings at Dixon Place http://qt-readings.blogspot.com http://www.myspace.com/qtreadings ~Upcoming readings:~ November 27 Wayne Koestenbaum + Gary Lutz December 18 Akilah Oliver + Stacy Szymaszek ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:27:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: ESL Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Camille told me the other day "the cherry tree is losing its feathers". Who needs poetry? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:26:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #17: Silent Teaching A Tribute to Hannah Weiner 7pm Saturday, November 17th Featuring: Mark Booth Maria Damon Patrick Durgin Judith Goldman Roberto Harrison Todd Mattei Jenny Roberts Jennifer Scappettone Timothy Yu at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Ave -- Chicago, IL NEW LOCATION close to Grand & Pulaski in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 http://www.spareroomchicago.org BYOB suggested donation $3 doors lock at 7:30pm wheelchair accessible with assistance "I SEE words on my forehead IN THE AIR on other people on the typerwriter on the page" http://www.epc.buffalo.edu/authors/weiner MARK BOOTH has exhibited his visual art at Tony Wright/Bodybuilder & Sportsman, Chicago; Chicago Cultural Center; The Contemporary Museum, Honolulu, Hawaii; Gahlberg Gallery, College of DuPage, Glen Ellyn, IL; Devening Editions, Chicago; and other venues. Selected audio artworks have been presented at the Overgaden Sound Art Festival, Copenhagen; Openport Festival, Chicago; Lincoln Park Conservatory, Chicago; Nova art fair, Chicago; and the Outer Ear Festival of Sound, Chicago. In addition, Booth has completed commissioned audio scores for Molly Shanahan/Mad Shak's "My Name is a Blackbird," Chicago, and Erik Pold's "Success", Copenhagen. Next fall, Booth will have a solo show at the Hyde Park Art Center in Chicago. He currently teaches creative writing, painting, and sound at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. MARIA DAMON teaches poetry and poetics at the University of Minnesota. She is the author of The Dark End of the Street: Margins in American Vanguard Poetry, co-author (with mIEKAL aND) of several books of poetry and online poetic works, and co-editor (with Ira Livingston) of the forthcoming anthology Poetry and Cultural Studies: A Reader. She has published numerous essays on poetry and poetics, including one on Hannah Weiner. PATRICK DURGIN's most recent publications include a chapbook of poetry (Imitation Poems) and contributions to Bay Poetics and Chicago Review. Very shortly forthcoming are essays in Aerial and The Journal of Literary Disability, poetry in Abraham Lincoln, as well as The Route, a collaborative hybrid-genre book written with Jen Hofer. By day, he teaches at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and by night maintains http://www.da-crouton.com. He edited the recent selected works of Hannah Weiner (Hannah Weiner’s Open House) for Kenning Editions (http://www.kenningeditions.com), as well as Weiner’s Early and Clairvoyant Journals for the UC San Diego's Archive of New Poetry. JUDITH GOLDMAN is the author of Vocoder (Roof 2001) and Deathstar/Rico-chet (O Books 2006). She was a coeditor, with Jocelyn Saidenberg and Kevin Killian, of Krupskaya for two years and currently coedits the annual anthology War and Peace with Leslie Scalapino. Her article "Hannah = hannaH: Politics, Ethics, and Clairvoyance in the work of Hannah Weiner" appeared in differences in 2001, while a review of Hannah Weiner's Open House is forthcoming in Crayon. She teaches in the core humanities program at University of Chicago. ROBERTO HARRISON edits Crayon with Andrew Levy and the Bronze Skull Press chapbook series. He also hosts the Enemy Rumor reading series. His most recent books include Counter Daemons (Litmus Press), Os (subpress) and Elemental Song (Answer Tag Home Press), all published in 2006. He lives in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. TODD MATTEI is an artist and musician living in Chicago. His work has been exhibited, screened, heard, or performed all over. He believes we must foster new perceptions of possibility, always available, and recycle both the wheat and the chaff circuits according to their most useful energy. Visit http://www.toddmattei.com for images and information. JENNY ROBERTS is a visual artist with roots in writing (poetry). In 2003, Jenny Roberts received an MFA from the University of Chicago. Roberts co-taught a seminar on conceptual art for adults at the Newberry Library in Chicago in 2005 and has presented her work as a visiting artist at the School of the Art Institute and Columbia College in Chicago as well as at a conference on camouflage at the University of Northern Iowa. She has had shows at LIPA Gallery, Lobby Gallery, the Hyde Park Art Center and other venues around Chicago. More at http://jennyrobertsart.com. JENNIFER SCAPPETTONE’s first book of poems, From Dame Quickly, will be out next year from Litmus Press. Several chapbooks were printed in 2007, including Err-Residence (Bronze Skull) and Beauty [Is the New Absurdity] (dusi/e kollectiv). She is an assistant professor of English and creative writing at the University of Chicago. TIMOTHY YU is the author of Journey to the West, which won the Vincent Chin Chapbook Prize from Kundiman and appeared in Barrow Street. His work has also appeared or is forthcoming in SHAMPOO, Abraham Lincoln, 2nd Avenue Poetry, and the anthology The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century (Cracked Slab). He lives in Chicago and in Toronto, where he teaches at the University of Toronto, and can occasionally be found at http://tympan.blogspot.com. Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. Coming in 2008 Kate Greenstreet and Jen Tynes Miranda Mellis and Sarah Rosenthal Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. The SpareRoom is Chicago's time-arts cooperative. Our space gives a community of artists the opportunity to rehearse, perform, exhibit, and develop work on their own terms. Our Make Work program provides use of the space for interdisciplinary events and workshops: performance art, film, video, readings, dance, theater, installation, experimental sound and more. Email proposals to spareroominfo@yahoo.com. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:32:29 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Clayton Eshleman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Could someone send me his current e-mail? Thanks-- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:26:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: ESL In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Who indeed? And Lynda, just the other day, explaining in Spanish why she'd fallen behind on a walk, said, "Tengo piedras cortas." File it under SSL. Still, we work on our Spanish every day. "The only thing that is not [poetry] is inattention." --Marcel Duchamp (adapted by HJ) Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:27 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Camille told me the other day "the cherry tree is losing its > feathers". > > Who needs poetry? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:36:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Upcoming Babel Events MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 UPCOMING BABEL-RELATED EVENTS 11.16.07 ARGENTINIAN NIGHT AT THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE OF BUFFALO Friday November 16,2007, 6:30 =E2=80=93 8:30 PM International Institute of Buffalo, 864 Delaware Ave. Free and open to the public Tickets for the food can be purchased at the event The international institute of buffalo invites you to join us for a celebra= tion of Argentinean culture, cuisine, and music Learn how to dance Tango, taste the Argentinean tea (Mate), and enjoy a fun= night with your family Sponsored by BABEL ( HYPERLINK =22http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel=22 www.j= ustbuffalo.org/babel) A project of Just Buffalo Literary Center Funded by: The John R. Oishei Foundation For more information, please contact May Shogan at 883-1900 Ext 321 or msho= gan=40iibuff.org 11.27.07 TURKISH POETS VISIT BUFFALO Tuesday, November 27 12:15-1:30 Reading and discussion Buffalo State College, Rockwell Hall, Room 124 7 p.m. Reading Taking Leaves=E2=80=A6Books, 3158 Main St. Just Buffalo Literary Center is pleased to announce two free events in conj= unction with Babel, The English Department at SUNY Buffalo State, and Talk= ing Leaves Books on Tuesday, 11/27: EDA: Turkish Poets Read and Discuss T= heir Work at Buffalo State College at 12:15 P.M.=E2=80=94in Rockwell Hall, = Room 124, and EDA: An Evening with Turkish Poets at 7:00 P.M. at Talking L= eaves Books, 3158 Main St. Both events will feature Lale M=C3=BCld=C3=BCr, = Seyhan Eroz=C3=A7elik,G=C3=BCven Turan, and host Murat-Nemet Nejat, editor = of =E2=80=9CEda: An Anthology of Contemporary Turkish Poetry,=E2=80=9D whi= ch was published by Talisman House in the United States in 2004 and covers = poems from 1921 to 1997, including essays on and by Turkish poets. 12.08.07 DEATH AND THE MAIDEN Saturday, =C2=A0December 8, 7:30 p.m.=E2=80=A8Alleyway Theatre, One Curtain= Alley. Tickets are =2425.00, general admission Buffalo United Artists presents a staged reading of Ariel Dorfman=E2=80=99s= =E2=80=9CDeath and the Maiden=E2=80=9D to benefit Just Buffalo, directed b= y Kelli Bocock Natale, starring Vincent O=E2=80=99Neill, Josephine Hogan, a= nd Peter Palmisano. ___________________________________________________________________________ Subscription Info for Babel =E2=80=A8WE ARE NOW OFFERING A 3-EVENT SUBSCRIPTION FOR =2460. CALL 832-540= 0 FOR DETAILS. Tickets for individual Babel events are still on sale. Call = 832-5400 or visit http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel. Get your tickets while you can=21 December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden =2425 March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize =2425 April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize =2425 ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:46:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "pity the fool". Rest of header flushed. From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Fri 11/16 in Brooklyn: Paige Ackerson-Kiely, Lily Brown & Elizabeth Robinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Burning Chair Readings=0Apity the fool=0Awho doesn=92t hear Paige Acker= son-Kiely, Lily Brown & Elizabeth Robinson=0AFriday, November 16th, 7:30 PM= =0AThe Fall Caf=E9=0A307 Smith Street=0Abtwn. Union & President=0ACarroll G= ardens, Brooklyn=0AF/G to Carroll Street =0A=0APaige Ackerson-Kiely was bor= n in October of 1975 at the behest of her=0Aparents in Biddeford, Maine. H= er first book, In No One's Land=0Awon the 2006 Sawtooth Poetry Prize. She = currently resides in=0AVermont, where she is employed selling wine, and is = at work on a second=0Amanuscript of poems entitled My Love is a Dead Arctic= Explorer, and a=0Anovel about infanticide.=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0ALily Br= own holds an MFA from Saint Mary's College and=0Acurrently lives in San Fra= ncisco. Her poems have been published or are=0Aforthcoming in Typo, Octopu= s, Fence, Cannibal, Tarpaulin Sky, Handsome=0Aand Coconut. Octopus Books p= ublished her chapbook, The=0ARenaissance Sheet, in early 2007. =0A=0A=0AEli= zabeth Robinson is the author of 8 books of poetry, most recently Under Tha= t Silky Roof (Burning Deck Press) and Apostrophe (Apogee Press). The Orpha= n and its Relations is forthcoming from Fence Books in 2008. Robinson co-e= dits EtherDome Press and Instance Books and lives in Boulder, Colorado.=0A= =0A=0A=0A ____________________________________________________________= ________________________=0ABe a better sports nut! Let your teams follow y= ou =0Awith Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt= =3DAt9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:16:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Allegrezza Subject: SERIES A--Come hear Cris Mazza and Ray Hsu this coming Tuesday! Comments: To: wallegre@iun.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline SERIES A--Come hear Cris Mazza and Ray Hsu this coming Tuesday! Series A is dedicated to experimental writing. This session features novelist Cris Mazza and poet Ray Hsu. Tue 11/20, 7 PM, Hyde Park Art Center, 5020 S. Cornell, Chicago, IL 773-324-5520 BYOB. For more information, see www.moriapoetry.com/seriesa.html. Cris Mazza is the author of over a dozen books of fiction, most recently Waterbaby. Her other fiction titles include the critically notable Is It Sexual Harassment Yet?, and the PEN Nelson Algren Award winning How to Leave a Country. She also has a collection of personal essays, Indigenous: Growing Up Californian. A native of Southern California, Mazza grew up in San Diego County. Currently she lives 50 miles west of Chicago and is a professor in the Program for Writers at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Ray Hsu is a Ph.D. candidate at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. His first poetry collection, Anthropy, won the League of Canadian Poets' Gerald Lampert Award and was a finalist for the Trillium Book Award for Poetry. He has published poems in The Walrus, New American Writing, and Fence. Hsu won a Humanities Exposed Evjue Research Award for establishing a creative writing community and ged tutoring program in a prison. He was featured in Heart of a Poet, a documentary series on the television network Bravo. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:55:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donna Kuhn Subject: pls read re. 3 year plan to spray pesticide on urban populations in sf bay area Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/531467 donna kuhn http://digitalaardvarks.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:22:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Hosea Subject: NYC Reading Sat 11/17 - Hosea, Leichter, Rosen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street (west of Greenwich Street) New York City FREE + good cheap eats and alcohol=85in the middle of the day! November 17: Chris Hosea, Elissa Leichter, Victoria Rosen Chris Hosea's poems have been published in VOLT, Denver Quarterly, Harvard Review, Swerve, The Literary Review, Article, New Voices, and elsewhere. His manuscript, "The Promise of the Baffled," was a semifinalist for this year's Walt Whitman Award. Chris holds an MFA from the University of Massachusetts Amherst. He lives in Brooklyn and works at the 92nd Street Y Unterberg Poetry Center. Elissa Leichter's woks has appeared in Phoenix Literary Magazine, Immortal Versus and on poetry.com. She is enrolled at Sarah Lawrence College's M.F.A. program in poetry. Special interests include Black Mountain poets, education and post-Kierkegaard philosophy. Victoria Rosen is a student in the MFA program in poetry at Sarah Lawrence College. Subway=97C,E/Spring; 1/Canal; N,R/Prince (long walk=85last resort) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:11:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: criminality/Mailer/another retro... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mailer wrote very well when he focused on criminality. "The American Dream" was a ruthless, fine crime novel. "Tough Guy's Don't Dance" was very good if you could ignore the final 100 pages. "The Executioner's Song" was excellent. There, Mailer allowed the Gilmore story to play itself out with NO DOPEY COMMENTARY. Perhaps if he hadn't had 6 wives, readers such as myself would have been spared the Marylin travesty, or worse, his interview with Madonna. Lawyers, alimony, expensive stuff. For the most part, I enjoyed the guys writing. His poetry, the little he wrote, was pathetic. Most of his journalism is repetitive, bombastic, and, gosh, just not that good. But he had his moments. He made large claims. He occasionally lived up to them. --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:15:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Meet the Melonheads: 4 Comments: To: rhizome , netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We live online between the black river and the great depthless lake. Power lines skitter across our periphery, trying not to be noticed, but failing for all of that: I wake to take pills and cigarettes into these transformations; I wake to literature of the ripple and lap of the riverbank. I'm still there throwing rocks out of the house I was evicted from. Down on the street where the babies shine, proper nouns flourish. Serious health risks may develop if you take this product with caffeine. Force a misbehaving application to quit, and by this time she's listening to music; below my feet, below the floor, bass winds narcotic sinews around sense. Sometimes I think all any of you want is to hear pretty talk and sleep within soft logic, like babies. In November we enter the season of howling land. Winds pick up banshees and screams can be heard winding narcotic sinews around sense. Thing is, I'm an uptown man myself. I love to stand still vibrating at the speed of your brain and my brain combined. There's always a first step into the woods at night. Lewis LaCook Director of Web Development Abstract Outlooks Media 440-989-6481 http://www.abstractoutlooks.com Abstract Outlooks Media - Premium Web Hosting, Development, and Art Photography http://www.lewislacook.org lewislacook.org - New Media Poetry and Poetics http://www.xanaxpop.org Xanax Pop - the Poetry of Lewis LaCook ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:39:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: A Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit _Deviations_ Before dawn in the thunderclap below the sheets or over head the form of a firefly deviating, the whole vanishes – opening eyes apart the body moves a growing distant view pavement, puddles seeing raindrops from overhead separations sudden blindness a set of pictures blurring the goddess moves her mouth between her teeth – minds collide. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:31:59 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: poetry in the bathroom: the toilet, the tub, and more... the tiny tour continues with rollers, feathers, showercaps... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I found the following short poem in the ads google paired with this email: Toilet Partition Hardware Rollers for conveyors Vibratory Finishing Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:02:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: "Freedom Writ Large" John Pilger's Address re imprisoned poets and writers of Burma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline *Freedom Writ Large* *This is John Pilger's address to a London meeting, 'Freedom Writ Large', organized by PEN and the Writers Network of Burma, on October 25.* *By John Pilger 10/27/07 "**ICH* *' -- -- T*hank you PEN for asking me to speak at this very important meeting tonight. I join you in paying tribute to Burma's writers, whose struggle is almost beyond our imagination. They remind us, once again, of the sheer power of words. I think of the poets Aung Than and Zeya Aung. I think of U Win Tin, = a journalist, who makes ink out of brick powder on the walls of his prison cell and writes with a pen made from a bamboo mat =96 at the age of 77. The= se are the bravest of the brave. And what honor they bring to humanity with their struggle; and what shame they bring to those whose hypocrisy and silence helps to feed the monster that rules Burma. I had planned tonight to read from my last interview with Aung San Suu Kyi, but I decided not to =96 because of something Suu Kyi said to me when I las= t spoke to her. "Be careful of media fashion," she said. "The media like this sentimental version of life that reduces everything down to personality. To= o often this can be a distraction." I thought about that, and how typically self effacing she was, and how righ= t she was. In my view, the greatest distraction is the hypocrisy of those political figures in the democratic West, who claim to support the Burmese liberation struggle. Laura Bush and Condoleezza Rice come to mind. "The United States," said Rice, "is determined to keep an international focus on the travesty that is taking place in Burma." What she is less keen to keep a focus on is that the huge American company, Chevron, on whose board of directors she sat, is part of a consortium with the junta and the French company, Total, that operates in Burma's offshore oil fields. The gas from these fields is exported through a pipeline that was built with forced labor and whose construction involved Halliburton, of which Vice President Cheney was Chief Executive. For many years, the Foreign Office in London promoted business as usual in Burma. When I interviewed Suu Kyi I read her a Foreign Office press release that said, "Through commercial contacts with democratic nations such as Britain, the Burmese people will gain experience of democratic principles." She smiled sardonically and said, "Not a bit of it." In Britain, the official public relations line has changed, but the substance of compliance and collusion has not. British tour firms =96 like Orient Express and Asean Explorer =96 are able to make a handsome profit on the suffering of the Burmese people. Aquatic =96 a sort of mini Halliburton= =96 has its snout in the same trough, together with Rolls Royce and all those posh companies that make a nice earner from Burmese teak. When the last month's uprising broke out, Gordon Brown referred to the sanctity of what he called "universal principles of human rights". He has said something similar a letter sent to this meeting tonight. It is his theme of distraction. I urge you not be distracted. When did Brown or Blair ever use their close connections with business =96 their platforms at the CBI and in the City London =96 to name and shame the= se companies that make money on the back of the Burmese people? When did a British prime minister call for the European Union to plug the loopholes of arms supply to Burma, stopping, for example, the Italians from supplying military equipment? The reason no doubt is that the British government is itself one of the world's leading arms suppliers, especially to regimes at war. Tonight (October 25) the Brown government has approved the latest American prelude to its attack on Iran and the ensuing horror and bloodshed= . When did a British prime minister call on its ally and client, Israel, to end its long and sinister relationship with the Burmese junta. Or does Israel's immunity and impunity also cover its supply of weapons technology to Burma and its reported training of the junta's most feared internal security thugs? Of course, that is not unusual. The Australian government = =96 so vocal lately in its condemnation of the junta =96 has not stopped the Australian Federal Police from training Burma's internal security forces in at the Australian-funded Center for Law Enforcement Cooperation in Indonesia. There are many more of these grand, liberal hypocrites; and we who care for freedom in Burma should not be distracted by the posturing and weasel pronouncements of our leaders, who themselves should be called to account a= s accomplices =96 unless and until their fine words are matched by deeds that make a genuine difference and they themselves stop destroying lives. We owe that vigilance and that truth to Aung San Suu Kyi, to Burma's writers and t= o all the other bravest of the brave. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:40:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project November In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, The Poets=B9 Potluck is tonight! Then we take a week off to give thanks. We return the week after with the readings listed below. Thank You, The Poetry Project Friday, November 16, 10 PM Poets' Potluck Just as it sounds: poets and the (ingestible) goods they bring. Please join us for a low-key night of readings, screenings, music and really good homemade food. Stacy Szymaszek might bring cheesecake, Arlo Quint might bring a cake baked by Christa Quint, John Coletti will whip up something delicious, as will Filip Marinovic, David Gatten, James Hoff, Diana Hamilton, Eddie Hopely, Dustin Williamson, Sara Marcus, Ben Malkin, Amelia Jackie, Lauren Russell, John Mulrooney, Jim Behrle, and perhaps other fabulous people. Fun times ahead. Suggested admission is five dollars. Monday, November 26, 8 PM Stephen Motika & Erica Kaufman Stephen Motika=B9s chapbook, Arrival and at Mono, will be published this fall by sona books. His work has appeared in The National Post of Canada, Anothe= r Chicago Magazine, and The Common Review, among other publications. =B3The Field,=B2 a collaborative exhibition with Dianna Frid, was on view at Gallery 400 at the University of Illinois, Chicago, in December 2003. He is the coordinator of public programs, education, and exhibitions at Poets House i= n New York City and publisher of Nightboat Books. Erica Kaufman is the author of several chapbooks, most recently Censory Impulse (Big Game Books), civilization day (Open24Hours), and a familiar album (winner of the 2003 Ne= w School Chapbook Contest). She is the co-curator/co-editor of Belladonna*/Belladonna Books. Erica lives in Brooklyn and is a Ph.D. candidate at the CUNY Graduate Center. Wednesday, November 28, 8 PM Hannah Weiner's Open House A reading to celebrate the vision of poet Hannah Weiner (Clairvoyant Journal, Little Books/Indians, Spoke) and the publication of Hannah Weiner=B9= s Open House by Kenning Editions, featuring readings, performances and recollections by Charles Bernstein, Lee Ann Brown, Thom Donovan, Patrick Durgin, Laura Elrick, Kaplan Page Harris, Andrew Levy, John Perreault, Rodrigo Toscano, Carolee Schneemann, James Sherry, Anne Tardos & Lewis Warsh. With special guests Jerome Rothenberg, Bernadette Mayer and Barbara Rosenthal. See our website for reader bios. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:22:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Lawrence Weiner review in NY Times Comments: cc: UK POETRY , Poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For folks with interest in Lawrence Weiner - text/concrete poetry/ conceptual artist, etc., whose first work emerged in the late sixties - Roberta Smith has a good review plus photographs of his retrospective recently opened at the Whitney. Though Weiner is deeply into language/thought and the implications of text explored - almost in the manner of paint and/or sculpture - in the context of gallery and public spaces - it is a good bet that Weiner's work is rarely studied in the context of most MFA writing programs. (Ron Silliman recently explored this sad poverty in a recent essay on the fate of consideration (lack thereof) of contemporary concrete poets.) For those in New York or visiting there is a nice permanent Weiner text piece on the crossbeam of an old Federal house on Greenwich near Canal Street. I have a picture and discussion of it on my blog from earlier this year: http://stephenvincent.net/blog/?m=200701 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently a short take on David Buuk's splendid talk and power point slide show on 'unpublic' public art in San Francisco and the Bay Region. A event that should be repeated! Plus more pix and improvs on Valencia Street by yours truly. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:35:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Lowinger Subject: Mail-art Show at NCCC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *All the lovelies out there, * *want to get you on board with this mail-art show being run by the venerable Becky Moda over here on the East End of Lake Erie. * ** *Everyone is encoruaged to participate, especially YOU!!!!!!* *Becky has a visual arts background, but she sees this show as great way to include poets and visual artists at once.* *Please FORWARD, BLOG, MAIL ON!!!!!!* well wishes from Buffalo -aaron lowinger from http://nccmailart.blogspot.com/ Call for Work Call for Work - Calling all Artists The making of mail as art, "mail art" has a history stretching back at least to the 1950s. Mail art has in the past rooted in a rejection of the commerce and exclusivity of the gallery show. The making of mail art, "mail-art" continues to be a common practice in an age dominated by electronic communication. This exhibition will continue to break down the division between the mailbox and the gallery. To that end, Niagara County Community College Art Gallery is seeking submissions for an upcoming exhibition, aiming to display the myriad manifestations of mail art. Artists working in all media are encouraged to participate. The topic and content of each piece is solely the choice of the artist. Artists are asked to produce one piece of mail art and send it to guest curator Becky Moda. Your work will be displayed in a cataloged group exhibition in the Spring. After the exhibition closes, each participating artist will receive via mail the work of another artist. "Senders receive," as mail artists say. The mail art movement is uniquely populist and non-commercial, involving non-traditional distribution methods and the potential for global reach. Let's breathe new life into this fascinating movement, which predated and in some ways predicted the artist networking boom enabled by the internet. It is asked that the artists adhere to the following guidelines: 1. Please send one piece of mail art to: Mail Art, NCCC Gallery, Niagara County Community College, 3111 Saunders Settlement Road, Sanborn, New York 14132-9460 by February 14, 2008. 2. The mail art can take any shape, in two or three dimensions. Pieces can expand when opened, but must be easily re-mailed for less than five dollars. Email any questions to beckymoda@gmail.com -- http://housepress.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:50:28 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new(ish) on rob's clever blog Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT new(ish) on rob's clever blog -- the power to bend spoons; interviews with Canadian novelists, ed. Bev Daurio -- some brief thoughts about the short novel -- readings in edmonton (again); the past few days -- ongoing notes -- the ottawa small press book fair -- Ottawa writer Elizabeth Hay wins the Giller Prize -- 12 or 20 questions: with Anne Stone -- ongoing notes; notes & more notes -- edmonton: first snow -- 12 or 20 questions: with Steve Venright -- 12 or 20 questions: with Matthew Firth -- white, a first novel by rob mclennan -- Ottawa Life magazine, reception -- what does her matter (poem) -- [ottawa] festival notes: october -- The Peter F. Yacht Club, issue #8 (the Edmonton issue) ; reading, regatta, launch -- [ottawa] festival notes: october -- [ottawa] festival notes: october -- Thomas Wharton's Salamander www.robmclennan.blogspot.com + some other new things at the alberta, writing blog www.albertawriting.blogspot.com + some other new things at ottawa poetry newsletter, www.ottawapoetry.blogspot.com + some other other new things at the Chaudiere Books blog, www.chaudierebooks.blogspot.com -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:06:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Schroedinger Cat Experiment (blind manipulation): MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Schroedinger Cat Experiment (blind manipulation): 0.133 f 0.133 function function minutes The moves turning a on ... to ... ... to ... a'; function ... to moves ... to to ... a a'; ... moves moves f a' function function a' moves function a' to function a' f' function a' moves function moves to f f' a'' moves a'; and to to of a'; to of moves a of to a and and to and course a'; a'' there f' to is moves a' is to moves a:a and moves a:a course moves is is moves there a:a a' course a' to of -> and of -> course and -> there and -> a:a and -> a' and a' a'' of -> f' course a:a f:or there is rather a:a is rather a' there rather a'' there f:or f:or is f:or rather is f' that -> a'' is a' -> is a'' a' necessary f:or a' necessary rather a' is that a' is necessary -> that from a'' all the f:or rather diagrams:is rather f:or diagrams:is that f:or diagrams:is necessary f:or diagrams:is the f:or the either rather from dead all from or that necessary alive. necessary is alive. the is alive. either that alive. dead is or alive. is dead about necessary either the the diagrams:is the diagrams:is diagrams:is cat? dead the cat? alive. the the about the the cat? diagrams:is about If either What the dead alive. cat alive. or has about or has cat? or cat the or cat cat alive. the died, What If surely about cat? :differentiate cat? the :differentiate If the :differentiate cat about :differentiate died, the surely :differentiate the died, it? cat? died, might the has might cat cat map, died, the map, :differentiate the map, This the might map, cat This but has it? then died, :differentiate there :differentiate :differentiate is This surely is map, surely there but surely there there :differentiate then still it? but the This map, question might might question but might question there might question still might the question might the of map, still experiment. but is experiment. there there Wait still there Wait question then Wait Your then experiment. experiment. there Your two is Your weeks, still of check question question the of the the experiment. the the two the check check question weeks, result, question two then Your Wait open experiment. 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I 6 been I Julu been ... ... it it has you you minutes just on minutes Give on name Give your name This your rather This that all is is from the the [...] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:39:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Maryrose ." Subject: Dan Raphael and Rodney Koeneke at Spare Room, Portland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm very much missing the recipe. I really enjoyed the month of poetics digest that contained that recipe. Anyway Spare Room presents Dan Raphael Rodney Koeneke Sunday, November 18th, 7:30 pm Concordia Coffee House 2909 NE Alberta www.concordiacoffeehouse.com $5.00 suggested donation www.flim.com/spareroom spareroom@flim.com Upcoming readings 12/9 Ken Rumble / Susan Briante ================================================= Dan Raphael is known for the linguistic richness of his poetry and his energetic performance of those words. Breath Test, his 16th book, was published this May (nine muses books.); other books include Showing Light a Good Time and When a Flying City Falls. Dan's poems have appeared in such publications as Central Park, Caliban, UrVox, Shattered Wig, and Tinfish, while current works appear in Otoliths, Skidrow Penthouse, Broken Word II, 31, and Refined Savage. His monthly poetry series at a downtown bookstore is in its 13th year; he previously edited 26 Books and NRG Magazine. Rodney Koeneke is the author of the poetry collections Musee Mechanique (BlazeVOX, 2006) and Rouge State (Pavement Saw, 2003). His new manuscript is called Etruria. Hobbies include flarf and neo-benshi, both of which will figure in this reading, where parts of a silent classic film will be screened to the poet's script. Rodney feeds almost daily content to his poetry blog, http://www.modampo.blogspot.com, and has flash-reviewed 100 poetry books for his latest time sink, GoodReads. Rodney lives in Portland with his wife, Lesley Poirier, and their curly-headed son. -- Maryrose Larkin Northwest Research http://maryroselarkin.blogspot.com/ http://www.northwestresearch.com/ http://northwestresearch.blogspot.com/ Maryrose@gmail.com 503-819-9455 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 05:13:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: Meditations in a Time of Delusions and Lies 25: Bomb Iran Follies In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071112201005.02865220@stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Meditations in a Time of Delusions and Lies 25: Bomb Iran Follies Hilton Obenzinger I write these meditations from time to time in an attempt to stay sane. If you find them tedious, apply the magic of delete. If you want to share them with others, feel free to do so. November 12, 2007 ------------------ When Bush pushed for further sanctions against Iran, Vladimir Putin asked a semi-rhetorical question: "Why make the situation worse, bring it to a dead end, threaten sanctions or even military action?" This reminds me of the bumper sticker I see sometimes: "WAR IS NOT THE ANS= WER." Of course, war IS the answer if the question is how to dominate the Middle East, control the flow of oil, put a stranglehold on Europe and Japan, encircle Russia . . . and so forth. And why make the situation worse? Because targeting Iran and spreading the chaos in the Middle East is part of the plan. As the Bush gang continues the slide towards widening the war, the absurdities keep mounting. Israel bombs something in Syria =96 a big cube in the desert =96 which is or may be or could be a nuclear reactor. One country bombs another =96 and the US does not object, and there's little outrage. Instead, the Bush gang encourages speculation in the media about exactly in what way the cube is a dangerous nuclear threat. The man who spends his time inspecting to see if a country is building nuclear weapons, Mohamed ElBaradei, thought that "to bomb first and ask questions later" was peculiar. Then the press discovers that pictures of that cube in the desert have been around for years. Why bomb it now? Did it just become a threat? Doesn't the fact that no one finds any evidence by Israel or the US a little dubious? Haven't we learned something from the last bit of faith-based intelligence? Don't get me wrong. I don't want Syria to make nuclear weapons, nor Iran. But Israel has not signed the non-proliferation treaty, and Iran has. Besides, Israel has, according to the CIA, over 200 nuclear weapons =96 but Israel's no problem, according to the US. Pakistan has nuclear bombs and is coming apart at the seams =96 but Pakistan's still our ally. Iran and Syria are the problems. Imagine if Syria's air force bombed Dimona, Israel's reactor. It's hard to conceive how much of an uproar that would produce, not to mention massive military retaliation. But, wait, there's more. Kurdish rebels attack Turkish troops on the border between Turkey and Iraq. Turkey threatens to retaliate. The US condemns the Kurdish "terrorists" and asks the Iraqi Kurds to cool them out. Meanwhile, Kurdish rebels on the border between Iraq and Iran continue their attacks =96 but, of course, they're not terrorists. Remember: some people can have nuclear weapons but others can't; some Kurds are terrorists but others are not; peace means war or is it war means peace? No need to fret, democracy in the Middle East is Blackwater electing to decide which is which. Norman Podhoretz is panting for World War 4 (apparently we already had number 3 =96 I'm glad I missed it); Giuliani has brought on Podhoretz and other fanatics to guide his campaign to ready the trigger on "Islamo-fascism." Meanwhile, the Bush gang keeps waterboarding the Democrats, making them think they're going to drown until they gag and . . . then they do drown in the bodily fluids of their own cowardice. Even if Bush doesn't bomb Iran, he's making sure that whoever takes over will have to do the job. Oh, yes, then there's the latest case of tainted toys from China. Congress votes more money for the agency checking consumer goods to expand, get more inspectors, do its job, and the director says she doesn't want the dough: Regulation is bad. Health care for kids is nixed =96 too expensive, plus it's socialism. And how can I forget: Bush threatens Cuba; Gaza is a giant prison and starving to death; veterans make up 25 percent of the homeless and are treated like dirt, not by anti-war protesters yelling "baby killers" but by the government that sent them; Lou Dobbs and other media demagogues vilify immigrants; and one more celebrity apologizes for a racist outburst. So, remember this moment. Remember all of the absurdities. Add some that I've missed. And start making up excuses to the future generations for why we allowed all of this to happen. Hilton Obenzinger obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed i meditate upon the ten directions / i meditate upon the ten intermediate directions and the breathing of the winds / i meditate upon the breathing out and breathing in / i meditate upon the four winds / i meditate upon the five winds / i meditate upon all living beings / i meditate upon all dead beings / upon all ghosts / upon all gatherings / i meditate upon all gatherings and all filterings / i meditate upon red dusts / i meditate upon yellow blue white red dusts / i meditate upon all radiations and all swarming / i meditate upon all avatars and sheave-bodies / i meditate upon the hundred worlds / the thousand worlds / i meditate upon worldings and world-destroyings / i meditate upon world-destroyers and the dusts of world-destroyers / i meditate upon all languagings and wordings / i meditate upon all words / i meditate upon thunderbolts and daggers / i meditate upon echoes of thunderbolts corrosions of daggers / i meditate upon rusts and skulls / i meditate upon the bones of broken skulls / upon the dusts of bones / upon the radiations of bones / i meditate upon memories and structures of memories / and upon the broken structures of memories / and upon forgotten structures of forgotten memories / i meditate upon the smallest and largest and the tears and deaths of the smallest and largest / i meditate upon the dependent originations of everything and nothing / upon the co-dependent originations of everything and nothing / upon the co-dependent co-originations of everything and nothing / i meditate upon nothing and everything / i meditate upon nothing at all / upon the emptiness of radiations and gatherings / upon the emptiness of dusts and filterings / upon the sheave-beings and the emptiness of sheave-beings / and upon the emptiness of skins emptiness of bones emptiness of thunderbolts and daggers / i meditate upon no-meditation / i meditate upon emptiness of emptiness / i meditate upon naming and namings / upon general naming and improper naming / upon proper names and proprietaries / upon parts of speech and signal parts of speech / i meditate upon protocols and the gatherings of bones / upon the coming-together of bones / upon the dissolution of red white blue yellow dusts / upon the dissolution of red dusts and filterings / i meditate upon the hardening of gatherings / i meditate upon the disappearance of filterings / and the hardening of worlding and worlds / and the hardening of this world and earth / i meditate upon the organisms and life-forms of this earth / i meditate upon the thinging and being of this earth / upon the beings of this earth / upon this being of this earth and this being / upon the bones of this being / upon the minding and minds of these bones / upon the meditation of these bones / upon the meditation of these bones and the ten directions / i meditate upon the ten directions / i meditate upon the ten intermediate directions and the breathing of the winds / meditate upon the breathing out and breathing in / upon the four winds / upon the five winds / meditate upon all living beings / meditate upon all dead beings / upon all ghosts / upon all gatherings / meditate upon all gatherings and all filterings / meditate upon red dusts / meditate upon yellow blue white red dusts / meditate upon all radiations and all swarming / meditate upon all avatars and sheave-bodies / meditate upon the hundred worlds / the thousand worlds / meditate upon worldings and world-destroyings / meditate upon world-destroyers and the dusts of world-destroyers / meditate upon all languagings and wordings / meditate upon all words / meditate upon thunderbolts and daggers / meditate upon echoes of thunderbolts corrosions of daggers / meditate upon rusts and skulls / meditate upon the bones of broken skulls / upon the dusts of bones / upon the radiations of bones / meditate upon memories and structures of memories / and upon the broken structures of memories / and upon forgotten structures of forgotten memories / meditate upon the smallest and largest and the tears and deaths of the smallest and largest / meditate upon the dependent originations of everything and nothing / upon the co-dependent originations of everything and nothing / upon the co-dependent co-originations of everything and nothing / meditate upon nothing and everything / meditate upon nothing at all / upon the emptiness of radiations and gatherings / upon the emptiness of dusts and filterings / upon the sheave-beings and the emptiness of sheave-beings / and upon the emptiness of skins emptiness of bones emptiness of thunderbolts and daggers / meditate upon no-meditation / meditate upon emptiness of emptiness / upon nothing at all / upon the emptiness of radiations and gatherings / upon the emptiness of dusts and filterings / upon the sheave-beings and the emptiness of sheave-beings / upon the emptiness of skins emptiness of bones emptiness of thunderbolts and daggers / upon no-meditation / upon emptiness of emptiness / nothing at all / emptiness of radiations and gatherings / emptiness of dusts and filterings / sheave-beings / skins bones thunderbolts daggers / no-meditation / no emptiness of emptiness / no emptiness / ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:01:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: RECONFIGURATIONS: A Journal for Poetics & Poetry / Literature & Culture In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit BlazeVOX and the Publishing Practices of the Post-Avant http://reconfigurations.blogspot.com/2007/11/jlyn-chapman-blazevox-and-publishing.html --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:45:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Nov. 17 Screenings/Performances: Movietelling at the Miami Beach Cinematheque Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed AN OFT-NEGLECTED FACT OF WORLD FILM history is that nearly everywhere movies have been regularly shown there was an era in which they were accompanied by live narration by "movietellers." Movietelling ranged from simultaneous translation of a foreign film and introductory lectures on its cultural background--for example, explaining "cowboys and Indians" to audiences in 1910s East Asia--to original new scripts in which each character was impersonated and sound effects recreated by a single performer freely departing from the film's originally intended message. SOMETIMES CALLED "POETS OF THE DARK," in colonized countries, the movieteller retold officially approved films in ways that expressed the local community's anguish and resistance. In doing so, they mastered many modes of political wit, satire, lyricism, narrative rhythm, and melodrama. Not surprisingly, movietellers were often arrested in the midst of a performance. THIS SATURDAY AT THE MIAMI BEACH CINEMATHEQUE, Kate Ann Heidelbach, Jen Nellis, and dennis M. somera--three wonderful poets from the San Francisco Bay Area and Miami who took seminars I taught at Mills College and the University of Miami--will be performing the first movietelling in Miami in nearly a century. I will also give an introductory illustrated talk and present excerpts from my own work in this genre going back to the early 1980s. You are hereby guaranteed a unique, thoroughly enjoyable and illuminating evening that will make you see the film-going experience from a rich new perspective! FOR MORE DETAILS and how to purchase tickets, please go to . HALF-PRICE TICKETS are available to students with University of Miami I.D. ($6). Seating is very limited and so I recommend that you purchase tickets beforehand. Parking tips are given below. WHEN: SATURDAY, Nov. 17 @ 8:30. WHERE: MIAMI BEACH CINEMATHEQUE, 512 Espinola Way, Miami Beach, FL 33139. Phone: (305) 67-FILMS. EVENT TITLE: "Poets of the Dark" BEST PARKING LOT OPTIONS: 1. 16th Street between Collins and Washington; 2. 16th and Drexel Ave.; 3. Least expensive: Lots north of Lincoln Road, three blocks away. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 01:04:01 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: David-Baptiste Chirot : Poetry in Nature: Photogaphy of Pradip Datta & rubBEing In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2007/11/poetry-in-nature-photogaphy-of-pradip.html Pradip Datta, artist from Kolkata. You should be hearing lots more of him and seeing more examples of his work in the coming months and year. Good work, David! -- Alexander Jorgensen bangdrum@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:17:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: emails for Lisa Robertson, Ange Mlinko MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anybody have those? Thanks! Andy --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:38:52 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Friendly reminder--reading this evening, come between 9 & 10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What: Poetry reading Who: Murat Nemet-Nejat, Standard Schaefer, Rodrigo Garcia Lopes Where: Herron household, map: http://tinyurl.com/yoganf Why: To honor the visit of three great Turkish poets When: Saturday 17 November, doors @ 9, readings & screenings @ 10 How: I'll gladly explain after you arrive Howdy friends - This evening, Saturday November 17, I will be hosting a poetry reading at my home in Chapel Hill NC (map: http://tinyurl.com/yoganf) to which you are all invited. I am hosting this reading in celebration of the arrival of Murat along with three of the greatest Turkish poets alive today, Lale Müldür, Gaven Tran and Seyhan Erözçelik. It is my aim to share some of our best poetry with our distinguished Turkish visitors. Readers: Murat Nemet-Nejat residing in Hoboken, NJ; originally from Istanbul, Turkey http://google.com/search?q=murat+nemet-nejat Standard Schaefer residing in San Francisco, CA; originally from Houston, Texas http://google.com/search?q=standard+schaefer Rodrigo Garcia Lopes residing in Chapel Hill, NC; originally from Londrina, Brazil http://google.com/search?q=rodrigo+garcia+lopes My door will open to everyone around 9PM and we will start readings promptly at 10. Each reader will read 10-30 minutes, and around 11:30 we will screen two films. The film _Satori Uso_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFkkNV77h28) is based on a character by Rodrigo Garcia Lopes. The second film is Julian Semilian's new surrealist short film, _Tear Void Insomnia Mist_. If you don't know him, Julian is an all-around brilliant poet/filmmaker/artist (http://tinyurl.com/yw5bmz) who teaches at the NC School of the Arts in Winston-Salem, NC. (special request: please park on the street, as my driveway is very treacherously steep and difficult to turn around on; there's a nicely lit brick stair-walk leading to my front door from the stret) there will be snacks there will, there will be snacks Patrick -- Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org http://proximate.org/ph/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:40:51 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Friendly reminder--reading this evening, come between 9 & 10 In-Reply-To: <473F6D7C.1010503@proximate.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's Güven Turan, not Gaven Tran. Darned spell-checker... Patrick Herron wrote: > What: Poetry reading > Who: Murat Nemet-Nejat, Standard Schaefer, Rodrigo Garcia Lopes > Where: Herron household, map: http://tinyurl.com/yoganf > Why: To honor the visit of three great Turkish poets > When: Saturday 17 November, doors @ 9, readings & screenings @ 10 > How: I'll gladly explain after you arrive > > Howdy friends - > > This evening, Saturday November 17, I will be hosting a poetry reading > at my home in Chapel Hill NC (map: http://tinyurl.com/yoganf) to which > you are all invited. I am hosting this reading in celebration of the > arrival of Murat along with three of the greatest Turkish poets alive > today, Lale Müldür, Gaven Tran and Seyhan Erözçelik. It is my aim to > share some of our best poetry with our distinguished Turkish visitors. > > Readers: > > Murat Nemet-Nejat > residing in Hoboken, NJ; originally from Istanbul, Turkey > http://google.com/search?q=murat+nemet-nejat > > Standard Schaefer > residing in San Francisco, CA; originally from Houston, Texas > http://google.com/search?q=standard+schaefer > > Rodrigo Garcia Lopes > residing in Chapel Hill, NC; originally from Londrina, Brazil > http://google.com/search?q=rodrigo+garcia+lopes > > My door will open to everyone around 9PM and we will start readings > promptly at 10. Each reader will read 10-30 minutes, and around 11:30 we > will screen two films. The film _Satori Uso_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFkkNV77h28) is based on a character by > Rodrigo Garcia Lopes. The second film is Julian Semilian's new > surrealist short film, _Tear Void Insomnia Mist_. If you don't know > him, Julian is an all-around brilliant poet/filmmaker/artist > (http://tinyurl.com/yw5bmz) who teaches at the NC School of the Arts in > Winston-Salem, NC. > > (special request: please park on the street, as my driveway is very > treacherously steep and difficult to turn around on; there's a nicely > lit brick stair-walk leading to my front door from the stret) > > there will be snacks there will, there will be snacks > > > Patrick > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:33:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Thomas-Glass Subject: emails- Lisa Robertson, Kevin Davies, Michael Scharf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Looking for valid email addresses for these three-- please, if you know them, send them along. You will have the eternal gratitude of several people, in return. Much thanks,,, Dan Thomas-Glass danthomasglass@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:35:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Thomas-Glass Subject: With + Stand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline With + Stand [1619, 'the whole creation, the universe,' from L.L. systema 'an arrangement, system,' from Gk. systema 'organized whole, body,' from syn- 'together', (sun- 'with') + root of histanai 'cause to stand'] withplusstand.blogspot.com A new journal of letters. Seeks submissions of emergent poetry & prose which gestures/thinks in around with through against histories (of capital & labor flows global markets trade agreements arts forms bodies states cities societies resistances migrations movements ideologies ideas etc.) & systems. First issue will be handsomely reproduced & distributed as widely as funds allow in the first month of 2008. Reading period: now through December 31st, 2007. Send submissions of 1-10 pages as word .doc attachments to withplusstand@gmail.com "The art that moves ahead into the unknown, the only art now possible, is neither lighthearted nor serious; the third possibility, however, is cloaked in obscurity, as though embedded in a void the figures of which are traced by advanced works of art." =96 Theodor Adorno, 'Is Art Lighthearted?' ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:00:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: EOAGH Issue Four NOW ONLINE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Announcing=20 EOAGH: A Journal of the Arts ISSUE FOUR Edited by Tim Peterson http://chax.org/eoagh/issuefour.html A PANEL: Language Poetry and The Body: A Panel Maria Damon, Steve Benson, Leslie Scalapino, Bruce Andrews Moderated by Erica Kaufman and Tim Peterson ARTICLES: ORDERED FRAGMENTS ( ) OF A DISORDERED DEVOTION by Charles Alexander OFF THE TOP OF MY RADIO HEAD by Stephen Paul Miller The Poetics of Non-Experience: Repetition, Simulation, and Anxiety in Leslie Scalapino's Trilogy by Tenney Nathanson Inbetweeness by Veronica Wong PERFORMANCE SCORE No More for jazz ensemble by Jeff Kimmel and Ruth Lepson REVIEWS Szymaszek's Homo Sailor King in Emptied of All Ships -- do you Speak Greek? by Julian Brolaski Elemental Song by Roberto Harrison Review by Alan Davies Slowly But Dearly by Norman Fischer Review by Alan Davies Lydia Davis' Proust Review by Michael Gottlieb Jack Kimball can dance...is a seasoned barb Review by Christina Strong WITH POETRY BY Gilbert Adair =20 Hugh Behm-Steinberg Cara Benson Charles Borkhuis Allen Bramhall Laynie Brown Marie Buck Laura Carter Christopher Casamassima Joel Chace James Cook Lisa Cooper Clayton Couch Bruce Covey Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle Jonathan Doherty Thom Donovan Jim Dunn kari edwards and Chris Martin Thomas Fink Skip Fox Joanna Fuhrman Rebecca Gopoian Andy Gricevich Arielle Guy Barbara Henning Mitch Highfill Dan Hoy Thomas Hummel Paolo Javier Paul Foster Johnson Jane Joritz-Nakagawa Lin Kelsey Brendan Kreitler Ruth Lepson Hillary Lyon Jami Macarty Nicholas Manning Sara Marcus Bonnie Jean Michalski Joe Moffet Rich Murphy Sheila Murphy and Scott Glassman Chris Murray Shin Yu Pai Dawn Pendergast Patricia Peterson Simon Pettet Nick Piombino Laurie Price Karen Randall Robin Reagler Marthe Reed Evelyn Reilly Edwin Rodriguez Linda Russo Frank Sherlock James Sherry Ron Silliman Gregory Vincent St Thomasino Rob Stanton Jordan Stempleman Ray Succre Shelly Taylor Adam Tobin Andrew Topel Rodrigo Toscano and Lynn Xu= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:24:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Earlier today I was reading in the park before going to my stupid job. A pair of nannies arrived on the scene with 2 young boys, one dressed as a cowboy, the other as an indian. "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DROP DEAD WHEN I SHOOT YOU!" "WHY DO I HAVE TO DIE ALL THE TIME!?" "BECAUSE I'M THE COWBOY AND COWBOYS DON'T DIE THE INDIANS DIE!" "I DON'T WANNA BE AN INDIAN NO MORE! I'M TIRED OF DYING ALL THE TIME!" The nannies sat on a bench smoking and talking about boyfriends. It was just another day in Philadelphia celebrating the murderous world we wake yawning toward. What fucking parents in 2007 are buying kids cowboy and indian costumes with cap guns? WHAT IF young German boys wanted to play a game of NAZI and JEW!? WOULD THAT ALSO BE OKAY!? But then again the Germans lost the war. Maybe if the indians won the war the cowboys would die in the game? What the fuck are these fucking parents thinking? "Let's get the boys some cowboy and indian outfits like we had when we were kids! Ah, look at them shoot one another! Brings back memories!" Our country is about to celebrate THANKSGIVING DAY, again! Talk about nostalgia for genocide. How many Americans will mindlessly cook a butchered turkey without any thought of Native American bloodlines having been erased from the planet? Millions and millions of tortured, slaughtered families from every corner of our map. All 50 states experienced this slaughter, enslavement, this giant dark finger tamping out the lights of generations. Languages stuttered into the plains and mountain chains no more. And who will be thinking of the nearly ONE MILLION Iraqis killed since our unprovoked illegal invasion of Iraq? THANKSGIVING DAY!? WE'RE GOING TO CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING DAY!? FUCK THANKSGIVING DAY! For those interested, a campaign to fast on Thanksgiving Day has begun. For more information please go to this site: http://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.blogspot.com When genocide is part of playtime everyone's asleep and murdering by proxy, even your stupid fucking children who know no better, CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:59:57 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Tinfish Press news Comments: To: British & Irish poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit November, 2007 TINFISH PRESS NEWS During this past year, Tinfish Press has published the following: --two on-line features at tinfishpress.com (About Looking and Tinfish Net #3 , On Translation) --farout_library_software by Pam Brown (Australia) and Maged Zaher (Seattle/Cairo) (Design by Chae Ho Lee) --Corpse Watching by Sarith Peou (design by Lian Litvin) --Someday I'll Be Sitting at a Dingy Bar by Hwang Jiwoo, translated by Scott Swaner and Young-Jun Lee (design by Gaye Chan) --Language as Responsibility by Leonard Schwartz (design by Lian Litvin) --Tinfish #17, the annual journal of poetry from the Pacific, featuring poetry from Hawai`i and elsewhere (covers by Jean Pittman) Forthcoming (soon!) --The Erotics of Geography (with cd-rom) by Hazel Smith (design by Karen Zimmerman) Forthcoming (later!) (First) books of poems by Craig Santos Perez and Meg Withers. A group of us just read and presented design talks at Evergreen State University in Olympia, Washington (Leonard Schwartz's class) and at Pacific University in Forest Grove, Oregon (organized by Jules Boykoff and Kaia Sand, among others). The reception was warm and engaged. Readers included Tiare Picard, Craig Perez, Deborah Meadows, Lissa Wolsak, Lisa Kanae and Susan M. Schultz. Approximately 200 people showed up for the reading at Pacific University and many dozens more for Gaye Chan and Lian Litvin's design talk. You can see photos at the “friends of Tinfish Press” facebook page. This past April we sponsored a reading by Linh Dinh and Naomi Long in Honolulu. In early November, we celebrated Tinfish #17 with a reading in the UH English department. Please check our website for more details: http://tinfishpress.com We invite you to buy Tinfish books. They make wonderful gifts for lovers of poetry and design, especially. To buy a Tinfish book is also to support the making of more fine books. We intend to publish more fine books in the coming year, and to offer readings here (Hawai`i) and elsewhere. So we also invite you to make tax deductible donations to Tinfish, either on the website or at our address: Tinfish Press Susan M. Schultz, Editor 47-728 Hui Kelu Street #9 Kane`ohe, HI 96744 schultz@hawaii.rr.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:31:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New and On View: Mudlark No. 34 (2007) Baroque Threads by Donald Wellman from Notebook: Cuaderno de Costa Rica Donald Wellman teaches cultural studies and writing at Daniel Webster College. Fields, a selected poems, spanning twenty years of work, appeared in 1995 (Light and Dust). Wellman has translated from French, German, and Spanish. Currently he is working with the Spanish poet Antonio Gamoneda. As editor of O.ARS, a series of anthologies devoted to postmodern poetics and practices, he derived personal satisfaction from the use of punctuation a la dada. The selection here is from his Notebook: Cuaderno de Costa Rica. His poetry engages emerging identities from an ethnographic perspective. These projects include Diario mexicano, Oaxaca, and Prolog Pages. Excerpts from these projects can be found in various on-line and print media: Eratio Postmodern Poetry, There, and Fascicle among others. His essay, "Creeley's Ear," appeared in Jacket Magazine 31. His "Prose on Uxmal" will be found in the current Absent Magazine. "Your Sleep is a Closed Almond," from Yvan Goll's Traumkraut, appears in Circumference 5 (Fall 2006). Other translations from Goll appear in the current Calque. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:10:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: In London: Poetry and Public Language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed CONTEMPORARY POETICS RESEARCH CENTRE BIRKBECK, UNIVERSITY OF LONDON POETRY AND PUBLIC LANGUAGE: A ROUND-TABLE DISCUSSION WITH PETER MIDDLETON, JOHN HALL, WILLIAM ROWE, ROBERT HAMPSON, & TONY LOPEZ WEDNESDAY 5TH DECEMBER 2007 6PM, ROOM 407, BIRKBECK COLLEGE, MALET STREET, LONDON WC1 A WINE RECEPTION FOLLOWS AT 7.30PM TO LAUNCH THE BOOK POETRY AND PUBLIC LANGUAGE JUST PUBLISHED BY SHEARSMAN, EXETER http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac%5Fpages/ewatten/pdfs/poetryandpubliclanguage.pdf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:12:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't think anyone is celebrating genocide. Calling Thanksgiving a celebration of genocide not only weakens what genocide is --planned, systematic annihilation-- but seems exaggerative. I agree that the roots of the celebration itself are suspect, but how is the view you express different from the Crazy Christians seeking to ban Halloween? On Nov 17, 2007 11:24 PM, CA Conrad wrote: > Earlier today I was reading in the park before going to my stupid job. > A pair of nannies arrived on the scene with 2 young boys, one dressed > as a cowboy, the other as an indian. > > "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DROP DEAD WHEN I SHOOT YOU!" > > "WHY DO I HAVE TO DIE ALL THE TIME!?" > > "BECAUSE I'M THE COWBOY AND COWBOYS DON'T DIE THE INDIANS DIE!" > > "I DON'T WANNA BE AN INDIAN NO MORE! I'M TIRED OF DYING ALL THE TIME!" > > The nannies sat on a bench smoking and talking about boyfriends. It > was just another day in Philadelphia celebrating the murderous world > we wake yawning toward. > > What fucking parents in 2007 are buying kids cowboy and indian > costumes with cap guns? WHAT IF young German boys wanted to play a > game of NAZI and JEW!? WOULD THAT ALSO BE OKAY!? But then again the > Germans lost the war. Maybe if the indians won the war the cowboys > would die in the game? > > What the fuck are these fucking parents thinking? "Let's get the boys > some cowboy and indian outfits like we had when we were kids! Ah, > look at them shoot one another! Brings back memories!" > > Our country is about to celebrate THANKSGIVING DAY, again! Talk about > nostalgia for genocide. > > How many Americans will mindlessly cook a butchered turkey without any > thought of Native American bloodlines having been erased from the > planet? Millions and millions of tortured, slaughtered families from > every corner of our map. All 50 states experienced this slaughter, > enslavement, this giant dark finger tamping out the lights of > generations. Languages stuttered into the plains and mountain chains > no more. > > And who will be thinking of the nearly ONE MILLION Iraqis killed since > our unprovoked illegal invasion of Iraq? THANKSGIVING DAY!? > > WE'RE GOING TO CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING DAY!? > > FUCK THANKSGIVING DAY! > > For those interested, a campaign to fast on Thanksgiving Day has > begun. For more information please go to this site: > http://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.blogspot.com > > When genocide is part of playtime everyone's asleep and murdering by > proxy, even your stupid fucking children who know no better, > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:13:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wil Hallgren Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It must be so wearying to be so conscientious that you feel compelled to monitor the play of children as they try to fit themselves into becoming human beings. Haven't we all played games as children that we would be embarrassed by if we considered ourselves to be perfect human specimens, complete and not subject to any form of error. As a child, as an adult, I was and am far from perfect. As a child I killed living beings wantonly (just as Gloucester notices in Lear). As an adult I live under a governmental and social-economic complex that does vile things in my name every time I drop a dollar at the local store. Every single one of us typing into this list-serve is compromised by every light or other electrical switch we turn on. Put that into your rant pipe and smoke it! Leave the children alone! It's the adults we have to try to change. -- Wil Hallgren ----- Original Message ---- From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 11:24:51 PM Subject: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! Earlier today I was reading in the park before going to my stupid job. A pair of nannies arrived on the scene with 2 young boys, one dressed as a cowboy, the other as an indian. "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DROP DEAD WHEN I SHOOT YOU!" "WHY DO I HAVE TO DIE ALL THE TIME!?" "BECAUSE I'M THE COWBOY AND COWBOYS DON'T DIE THE INDIANS DIE!" "I DON'T WANNA BE AN INDIAN NO MORE! I'M TIRED OF DYING ALL THE TIME!" The nannies sat on a bench smoking and talking about boyfriends. It was just another day in Philadelphia celebrating the murderous world we wake yawning toward. What fucking parents in 2007 are buying kids cowboy and indian costumes with cap guns? WHAT IF young German boys wanted to play a game of NAZI and JEW!? WOULD THAT ALSO BE OKAY!? But then again the Germans lost the war. Maybe if the indians won the war the cowboys would die in the game? What the fuck are these fucking parents thinking? "Let's get the boys some cowboy and indian outfits like we had when we were kids! Ah, look at them shoot one another! Brings back memories!" Our country is about to celebrate THANKSGIVING DAY, again! Talk about nostalgia for genocide. How many Americans will mindlessly cook a butchered turkey without any thought of Native American bloodlines having been erased from the planet? Millions and millions of tortured, slaughtered families from every corner of our map. All 50 states experienced this slaughter, enslavement, this giant dark finger tamping out the lights of generations. Languages stuttered into the plains and mountain chains no more. And who will be thinking of the nearly ONE MILLION Iraqis killed since our unprovoked illegal invasion of Iraq? THANKSGIVING DAY!? WE'RE GOING TO CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING DAY!? FUCK THANKSGIVING DAY! For those interested, a campaign to fast on Thanksgiving Day has begun. For more information please go to this site: http://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.blogspot.com When genocide is part of playtime everyone's asleep and murdering by proxy, even your stupid fucking children who know no better, CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 05:12:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: National Endowment for the Arts - Reading - //Less time spent reading for fun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/19/arts/19nea.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin --- to read only the "right books for the right answers"? and then the variations on this in Pierre Bayard's book examining giving "right" and "creative" "answers" when talking about books one hasn't read, or forgotten-- which can ultimately become a way into writing one's own works-- (a new, improved version of some of the theses suggested by the old "Bluffer's Guides"?) "it's fun to have fun if you only know how"--The Cat in the Hat do you have to read a book to tell you how to have fun? in order to have fun in reading a book? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 06:19:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Halle goes prosy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out raw & tasty prose poems on PFS Post from Steve Halle, native of Palatine, Illinois, where the Smithereens play carnivals, remembering "A Girl Like You": http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com Also, Steve's blog-blog http://www.stevehalle.blogspot.com And books: "Opera Bufa" http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210 "Beams" http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-af.pdf --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:57:34 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Ladkin Subject: COMPLICITIES: British Poetry 1945-2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear All, Robin Purves and I are delighted to announce the publication of the following book, available now. Apologies for cross-posting. Yours truly, Sam COMPLICITIES: British Poetry 1945-2007 eds. Robin Purves & Sam Ladkin ISBN 978-80-7308-194-2 (paperback). 261pp. Publication date: November 2007 Price: =80 12.00 (not including postage) http://litteraria.ff.cuni.cz/books/complicities.html This collection of essays does not seek to fashion a bespoke 21st-century Albion from the remnants of Britain's various poetic traditions. The poetry considered here, and its criticism too, is by and large critical of the "new imperial suitings" beneath which the old and new networks of power run. The work gathered in these pages knows language and culture to be profoundly complicit across the board in the extension of acts of domination, from the preparation for and execution of war, to the composition of the suicide note, from the overt corrupting of the democratic franchise, to cold calling's interpellation of the human subject as consumer-in-waiting. Contributors to this volume include: Thomas Day, Keston Sutherland, Alizon Brunning, Robin Purves, J.H. Prynne, Bruce Stewart, D.S. Marriott, Stephen Thomson, Craig Dworkin, Sophie Read, Sara Crangle, Malcolm Phillips, Tom Jones, Josh Robinson, Sam Ladkin, Jennifer Cooke, Ian Patterson. Robin Purves is a Lecturer in English Literature at the University of Central Lancashire. Sam Ladkin is a researcher at the University of Cambridge. For information on all Litteraria Pragensia titles, please visit our website: www.litterariapragensia.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:25:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Devaney Subject: NYC book party: Thomas Devaney -- Nov 29 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Suzi Winson and Fish Drum invite you to celebrate the release of A SERIES OF SMALL BOXES by THOMAS DEVANEY Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:00-7:45 pm The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery * New York City at the foot of First St. between Houston & Bleecker 212.614.0505 "Devaney's poems are vulnerable, pleasurable, tolerant, wary and contemporary" --Fanny Howe "The poems are resonant patches of serious life, almost as buoyant as dreams. Their light graces remain etched in the mind." --John Ashbery http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ http://www.fishdrum.com/ A Series of Small Boxes at SPD: http://www.spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=9781929495115 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:16:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: Framingham State College MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (this is a forward. please don't respond to me. good luck!) Framingham State College: The English Department invites gifted writers & teachers to apply for a position as a tenure-track Assistant Professor, to begin September 2008, to teach creative writing, literature, & first-year writing. A terminal degree is required, a PhD is preferred, & an MFA will be considered. We seek a colleague who has demonstrated the ability to be an excellent teacher of the writing of poetry, fiction, & non-fiction; modern & contemporary British, European, or American literature; & first- year composition courses. Candidates should demonstrate their writing accomplishments in at least two genres by submitting ten pages of poetry & twenty pages of prose fiction or non-fiction, either published or unpublished. The course load is 3/3 & includes one section of first-year composition, two literature courses, & three creative writing courses, with the opportunity to develop new courses in modern & contemporary literature. Framingham State College is a wireless, laptop campus & welcomes instructors with experience using computers in the classroom. Please send a letter, c.v., dossier, including three letters of recommendation & transcript, & a writing sample, postmarked by November 30 to: Professor Elaine Beilin, Chair, English Department, Framingham State College, 100 State Street, Framingham, MA 01701. Semi-finalists will be asked to submit a half-hour video of one of their classes by February 15, 2008; finalists will be invited to campus. AA/EOE. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:47:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: SCOTT HOWARD Subject: RECONFIGURATIONS: launched/published MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We are happy to announce the official launching/publishing of RECONFIGURATIONS, Volume One: Contingency http://reconfigurations.blogspot.com/ If you would like to post announcements elsewhere, we would be grateful for the assistance. Sincerely, W. Scott Howard Karla Kelsey Chris Stroffolino RECONFIGURATIONS: A Journal for Poetics & Poetry / Literature & Culture http://reconfigurations.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:45:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Maybe you didn't notice that I was referring to the adults? It was the adults I blamed, not the children. In fact I made a point of saying the children know no better. What children do and say frightens me BECAUSE it's what the adults they mimic do and say. Get it? We're at war and nearly a million Iraqis are dead. Thanksgiving makes me sick at this point. Literally sick! As far as being told I'm exaggerating genocide, no. No I'm not. It's on historical record that the Puritans were not at all interested in sharing space, resources, or much else with Native Americans. Roger Williams made it clear that he and his fellow Puritans should at the very least PAY the Native Americans for the land being settled, and it was this reason as much as any other reason Williams was sent into exile. He dared look upon the Native Americans as equals, and was banished. He then founded Providence, Rhode Island. But no, it's no exaggeration at all to link the original white settlers with genocide. Many people like to entertain the notion that the Indian Wars were post Civil War, when in fact the original white settlers starved entire Native American communities out of their homes and off their land. The very same white settlers the Native Americans rescued when first arriving. That's no exaggeration either to say "rescued," because if it were not for the Native Americans sharing food and resources The Mayflower would be unknown to us today. And not only that but our first president himself declared war on the Iroquois. Washington became known as "Village Destroyer." The slaughter he unleashed continued for a hundred more years, up to the massacre at Wounded Knee. The photographs of that mass grave of Lakota men, women and children should make anyone sick to their stomachs. The US 7th Cavalry standing at the edge of the grave with their rifles, posing above the twisted and bloody limbs, it's incredible! And THAT photograph should be in every single high school history book! If the Native Americans who rescued the settlers from the Mayflower had any idea what was to come, the evil, wicked, wanton destruction and murder, would they have fed these people? I like to think they would have let them starve. What I'm proposing is a Thanksgiving Day of giving thanks by saying NO! And being a vegetarian for 20 years (January 1st 2008 it will be 20 years) I also point out that the lives of turkeys are also very much on my mind. Having grown up in rural America I've known turkeys both domesticated and wild, and love the birds. They are amazing creatures with fascinating lives. The care of a mother turkey, the ritual of a Tom defending his turf, and a million nuances outside the obvious, make me wonder how many people stuffing their faces with the flesh of these birds ever care to know how they live. I've always admired the Abbie Hoffman quote, "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed, there would be no more wars." Anyone else interested in SAYING FUCK NO TO THANKSGIVING DAY, go to HTTP://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.BLOGSPOT.COM CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:31:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! In-Reply-To: <9778b8630711181012j6a674734s6474a0d430f239ab@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed i agree. thanksgiving is one of my favorite rituals in american culture. it's all about appreciating what you have and looking out for people who have less. and while the history may not back it up, the thanksgiving mythology reflects an attitude that I think culturally we can be proud of and i'm hesitant to toss the baby out with the bathwater on that one. On Sun, 18 Nov 2007, Ryan Daley wrote: > I don't think anyone is celebrating genocide. Calling Thanksgiving a > celebration of genocide not only weakens what genocide is --planned, > systematic annihilation-- but seems exaggerative. I agree that the roots of > the celebration itself are suspect, but how is the view you express > different from the Crazy Christians seeking to ban Halloween? > > On Nov 17, 2007 11:24 PM, CA Conrad wrote: > >> Earlier today I was reading in the park before going to my stupid job. >> A pair of nannies arrived on the scene with 2 young boys, one dressed >> as a cowboy, the other as an indian. >> >> "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DROP DEAD WHEN I SHOOT YOU!" >> >> "WHY DO I HAVE TO DIE ALL THE TIME!?" >> >> "BECAUSE I'M THE COWBOY AND COWBOYS DON'T DIE THE INDIANS DIE!" >> >> "I DON'T WANNA BE AN INDIAN NO MORE! I'M TIRED OF DYING ALL THE TIME!" >> >> The nannies sat on a bench smoking and talking about boyfriends. It >> was just another day in Philadelphia celebrating the murderous world >> we wake yawning toward. >> >> What fucking parents in 2007 are buying kids cowboy and indian >> costumes with cap guns? WHAT IF young German boys wanted to play a >> game of NAZI and JEW!? WOULD THAT ALSO BE OKAY!? But then again the >> Germans lost the war. Maybe if the indians won the war the cowboys >> would die in the game? >> >> What the fuck are these fucking parents thinking? "Let's get the boys >> some cowboy and indian outfits like we had when we were kids! Ah, >> look at them shoot one another! Brings back memories!" >> >> Our country is about to celebrate THANKSGIVING DAY, again! Talk about >> nostalgia for genocide. >> >> How many Americans will mindlessly cook a butchered turkey without any >> thought of Native American bloodlines having been erased from the >> planet? Millions and millions of tortured, slaughtered families from >> every corner of our map. All 50 states experienced this slaughter, >> enslavement, this giant dark finger tamping out the lights of >> generations. Languages stuttered into the plains and mountain chains >> no more. >> >> And who will be thinking of the nearly ONE MILLION Iraqis killed since >> our unprovoked illegal invasion of Iraq? THANKSGIVING DAY!? >> >> WE'RE GOING TO CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING DAY!? >> >> FUCK THANKSGIVING DAY! >> >> For those interested, a campaign to fast on Thanksgiving Day has >> begun. For more information please go to this site: >> http://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.blogspot.com >> >> When genocide is part of playtime everyone's asleep and murdering by >> proxy, even your stupid fucking children who know no better, >> CAConrad >> http://PhillySound.blogspot.com >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:03:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I get that this is something that you are passionate about, and couldn't agree more that the treatment of the native american nations by european colonists was an atrocity that our nation is a long way from fully making amends for. Not only that, but I'm sympathetic to your feelings about animal rights. I'm not a vegetarian myself, because the arguments for that level of ethical responsibility to non-human lifeforms are not something that I think holds water. I am however disgusted by the practices of factory meat production in the country and for many years have endeavored to keep my diet as close to the principle of local sustainablity as I can. The older I get, and the more money I have, the better I've gotten at it. Further many of my dearest friends are strict vegans and for a number of years I've enjoyed the fellowship of sitting down to at one particular family's table on thanksgiving to enjoy the completely animal-product-free meal with them. I'm telling you all this because I want you to know that while I'm sympathetic to your cause, frankly I find your tactics extremely offputting and my gut reaction to them is to pull away, delete the email and ignore what you're saying. I'm not doing that because I don't think that gets anybody anywhere. I'd like to ask you to consider not what you're asking people to do, but how you're asking them to do it, and also to consider what the symbolic nature of what you're asking to do is asking people to give up. I won't be fasting with you on Thanksgiving day. As I said on a previous email, the mythology and ritual of the holiday means far too much to me and honestly I don't see what participating in your protest would accomplish. But I want to hear what you have to say, and I think it's important that you continue to say it. However, I don't know that many other people will react to you that way unless you find a better way of saying it. Sincerely, Jason Quackenbush On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, CA Conrad wrote: > Maybe you didn't notice that I was referring to the adults? It was > the adults I blamed, not the children. In fact I made a point of > saying the children know no better. > > What children do and say frightens me BECAUSE it's what the adults > they mimic do and say. Get it? > > We're at war and nearly a million Iraqis are dead. Thanksgiving makes > me sick at this point. Literally sick! > > As far as being told I'm exaggerating genocide, no. No I'm not. It's > on historical record that the Puritans were not at all interested in > sharing space, resources, or much else with Native Americans. Roger > Williams made it clear that he and his fellow Puritans should at the > very least PAY the Native Americans for the land being settled, and it > was this reason as much as any other reason Williams was sent into > exile. He dared look upon the Native Americans as equals, and was > banished. He then founded Providence, Rhode Island. But no, it's no > exaggeration at all to link the original white settlers with genocide. > > Many people like to entertain the notion that the Indian Wars were > post Civil War, when in fact the original white settlers starved > entire Native American communities out of their homes and off their > land. The very same white settlers the Native Americans rescued when > first arriving. That's no exaggeration either to say "rescued," > because if it were not for the Native Americans sharing food and > resources The Mayflower would be unknown to us today. > > And not only that but our first president himself declared war on the > Iroquois. Washington became known as "Village Destroyer." The > slaughter he unleashed continued for a hundred more years, up to the > massacre at Wounded Knee. The photographs of that mass grave of > Lakota men, women and children should make anyone sick to their > stomachs. The US 7th Cavalry standing at the edge of the grave with > their rifles, posing above the twisted and bloody limbs, it's > incredible! And THAT photograph should be in every single high school > history book! > > If the Native Americans who rescued the settlers from the Mayflower > had any idea what was to come, the evil, wicked, wanton destruction > and murder, would they have fed these people? I like to think they > would have let them starve. > > What I'm proposing is a Thanksgiving Day of giving thanks by saying NO! > > And being a vegetarian for 20 years (January 1st 2008 it will be 20 > years) I also point out that the lives of turkeys are also very much > on my mind. Having grown up in rural America I've known turkeys both > domesticated and wild, and love the birds. They are amazing creatures > with fascinating lives. The care of a mother turkey, the ritual of a > Tom defending his turf, and a million nuances outside the obvious, > make me wonder how many people stuffing their faces with the flesh of > these birds ever care to know how they live. > > I've always admired the Abbie Hoffman quote, "I believe in compulsory > cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed, there > would be no more wars." > > Anyone else interested in SAYING FUCK NO TO THANKSGIVING DAY, go to > HTTP://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.BLOGSPOT.COM > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:10:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Listenlight new issue 13 (featuring "live text") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Listenlight 13 http://listenlight.net ~~ Brenda Iijima, Katrinka Moore, Tammy Ho Lai-Ming, Matina Stamatakis, Jenna Cardinale, Ophelia Mourne ~~ note: the issue 13 relies exclusively on javascript. there is nothing to see without javascript enabled. that said, i have only tested it for Firefox 2 (and if you're not using firefox, you really should be: http://getfirefox.com), so, if you have the time, please fire up IE or Safari or Opera, and let me know if there are any problems, specifically if your computer slows down significantly after viewing a page of issue 13 for more than three minutes (I suspect a memory leak in some of my programming -- I had all seven pages open for half an hour and it slowed my Core 2 w/ 2Gigs ram, so there's no telling how bad it will be on slower computers running bloated virus/spyware/adware sentries). Anyhow, I will appreciate any and all technical reports. I am just a hobbyist programmer/designer -- don't have access to six different browsers. Also, it's absolutely beautiful. Check it out: http://listenlight.net. You will love it. Your happy editor -- Jesse Wayne Crockett jesse -at listenlight.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:22:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: turkey time! ( thank you! previous post) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" thank you for your post below... i freak out on thanksgiving...so here's a poem i just threw out there at mys= elf (out of frustration) minutes before reading your post....thank you...bobbi lurie =C2=A0IT=E2=80=99S TIME TO KILL THE TURKEYS AGAIN FRIENDS =C2=A0 i=E2=80=99ve had it with talk of stuffing and basting and wasting turkeys= =E2=80=99 time please take my=20 suggestion: my interpretation: to be thankful means to fast/ not feast and i= f ya gotta eat=20 might i suggest simple spaghetti=E2=80=94the cheap kind with plain tomato sa= uce=E2=80=94then put a=20 photo of a turkey as a centerpiece and say =E2=80=9Cat least one turkey=E2= =80=99s life has been saved and=20 please pass some more of that pasta sauce=E2=80=9D ur country is about to celebrate THANKSGIVING DAY, again! Talk about ostalgia for genocide. How many Americans will mindlessly cook a butchered turkey without any hought of Native American bloodlines having been erased from the lanet? Millions and millions of tortured, slaughtered families from very corner of our map. All 50 states experienced this slaughter, nslavement, this giant dark finger tamping out the lights of enerations. Languages stuttered into the plains and mountain chains o more. And who will be thinking of the nearly ONE MILLION Iraqis killed since ur unprovoked illegal invasion of Iraq? THANKSGIVING DAY!? WE'RE GOING TO CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING DAY!? FUCK THANKSGIVING DAY! For those interested, a campaign to fast on Thanksgiving Day has egun. For more information please go to this site: ttp://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.blogspot.com When genocide is part of playtime everyone's asleep and murdering by roxy, even your stupid fucking children who know no better, AConrad ttp://PhillySound.blogspot.com ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http= ://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:37:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric unger Subject: out now from House Press: string of small machines 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline a poem by Paul Klinger from the issue : Me, Marvell seeing how much could swing upon one part receiving more I am at them with this in mind and I am sound is Marvell as he has made himself a pocket a real purse he has where he keeps these ideas always at the vegeta- ble after that part- icular address veritable which skin feeling of the other end -- string of small machines is pleased to offer its third issue of poetry. sabrina calle / harold abramowitz & amanda ackerman / kathryn l. pringle / cedar sigo / maureen thorson / mark lamoureux / brandon downing / roberto harrison / paul klinger / elizabeth robinson cover : michael slosek only 6 dollars (US) through PayPal at : http://housepress.blogspot.com/2007/10/string-of-small-machines-3.html string of small machines is the poetry magazine of House Press, published in Chicago, edited by Luke Daly, Barrett Gordon, and Eric Unger. House Press is an independent, poetry-centered arts community founded in Buffalo, NY in 2002. Authors / publishers live in Buffalo, Chicago, New York, Albany, Charlottesville, and San Francisco. More info : http://www.housepress.org http://housepress.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:52:19 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: In Orlando 11/21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit POETIC MEETUP Orlando Poetry Group presents: Every Third Wednesday At: Austins Wednesday November, 21th 2007 8:30pm Austin’s Coffee and Film 929 W Fairbanks Ave Winter Park, Florida Pre-Turkey Open Mic Hosted by Chaz Yorick’s Open Words ,& Russ Golata For directions or comments e-mail me at blacksox@att.net Or phone me at 407-403-5814 Or AUSTIN’S at 407-975-3364 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:00:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Kyle Subject: Johanna Drucker: Art Theory Now: from Aesthetics to Aesthesis Comments: To: "kyle@cuneiformpress.com" In-Reply-To: <26511013-C527-449D-8A5D-11D8F4F8EFAC@virginia.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Art Theory Now: from Aesthetics to Aesthesis Johanna Drucker School of Visual Arts: Tuesday, December 11, 7pm Amphitheater 209 East 23rd Street, 3rd floor, free and open to the public If the job of art criticism is interpretation, the task of art theory is to offer foundational principles for understanding the identity and cultural function of works of art. But what aesthetic theory accommodates Damien Hirst=B9s In the Name of God, Phil Collins=B9 The World Won=B9t Listen, Jennifer Steinkamp=B9s digital video works, the books of Dean Dass, or Robert Longo=B9s drawings of deep space or atomic blasts? How do we formulate aesthetic theory after Adorno? This lecture outlines a shift from aesthetics as the study of objects to aesthesis as a mode of experience and knowledge, and draws on ideas sketched in the author's recent article, "Making Space: Image-Events in an Extreme State," published in Cultural Politics. Johanna Drucker is Robertson Professor of Media Studies at the University o= f Virginia and the author of Sweet Dreams: Contemporary Art and Complicity (University of Chicago, 2006) and The Century of Artists' Books (Granary, 2004). Presented by the MFA Art Criticism and Writing Department. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:01:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. R. Waldrop" Subject: New from Burning Deck Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed New from Burning Deck: ULF STOLTERFOHT Lingos I-IX translated from the German by Rosmarie Waldrop Poetry, 128 pages, offset, smyth-sewn ISBN 978-1-886224-85-8 original paperback $14 Publication date: November 15, 2007 Lingos takes as its playground all the cultural baggage of our turn =20 of the century and examines it with a mix of deconstruction, parody =20 and sheer exuberance. The poems flaunt their intent to avoid =20 linearity, prefabricated meaning and the lyrical I. Instead, they =20 cultivate irony, punning, fragmenting, juxtaposing, distorting, and =20 subject everything to an almost compulsive humor =97 the author and his =20= own methods included. Ulf Stolterfoht was born in 1963 in Stuttgart and now lives in Berlin =20= with his wife and three children. His 3 books of poems are all called =20= Fachsprachen [lingos, jargons, technical terms] and are all published =20= by Urs Engeler Editor: FACHSPRACHEN I-IX (1998), FACHSPRACHEN X-XVIII (2002), which received =20= the Hans-Erich-Nossack-F=F6rderpreis and the Christine Lavant-Preis =20 respectively, and most recently, in 2004, FACHSPRACHEN XIX-XXVII, for =20= which he received the Anna-Seghers-Prize in 2005 and a stipendium to =20 the German Academy in Rome. =93Let us only say, that Stolterfoht=92s poems have something I would =20= count as new possibilities of poetry: an intellectual serenity that =20 is not just witty and satirical, but works with advanced poetic means =20= and proves to be =E0 la hauteur of the satirized subjects.=94=97J=F6rg = Drews, =20 Merkur Hhere the entire history of philosophy and literature is first tossed =20= into the waste basket before it is possibly reused.... But underneath =20= it all, the author is in search of a serious and usuable poem, This =20 double bind, on the one hand to serve/use postmodern recycling and, =20 on the other, to make fun of it, is what I consider so =20 extraordinary.=94 =97Kurt Drawert, Neue Z=FCrcher Zeitung Copies are available from: Small Press Distribution, 1-800/869-7553 , www.spdbooks.org, =20 orders@spdbooks.org H Press: www.hpress.no Spectacular Diseases, 83b London Rd., Peterborough, Cambs.PE2 9BS, =20 England =20= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:04:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: savaged code MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed savaged code ps ml r yr ml an yt ml j hz ml uh ml aml ml af c ml ag uh an ah af an ah ah c ah am j ah ap aag b ag ag baaiah bb ap ah bb b aibb bb am bb ch ap bb d aw bb dd babb ds cc bb ecubb edd cc eeech eef cueg dd e gg ds egz eeeh g eehb gz eehb hb f hb huff hb igg hb jj h hb jk hh hb jl ihb jl jj hh jl jl hujl jn ijl jp iijl jq jk jl jr jm jl js jo jl js jq jm jt js jn jt jujojt jw jq js jx jr js jy jt js k jv jt kajx jt kakajukakb jv kakd jx kakf k kakg kb kakh kd kakh kf kb kh kh kc kikj kd kh kl kekh km kg kh kn kikh kokk kikp km kikp kokj kp kq kk kp ks kl kp kt kn kp kukp kp kv kr kp kw kt kp kw kv kq kw kx kr kw kz kt kw lakukw lb kw kw lc ky kw lc lakx ld lc ky ld lekz ld lf l ld lh lb lc lild lc lj lf ld lk lh ld lk lj lelk ll lf lk ln lg lk lolilk lp lk lk lq lm lk lr lolk lr lq ll lr ls lm lr lulolr lw lp lr lx lr lr ly lt lr ly lv ls lz lx lt lz lz lulz malv lz mc lx lz md ly lz mem lz mf mc lz mf mem mf mg mamf mimb mf mj md mf mk mf mf mm mh mf mn mj mg mo mm mg momomh momq mj momr mk mn mt mn mn mump momumr momv mt mp mv mv mq mv mx mr mv mz ms mv n mumv namw mv nb my mv nb n mw nb nc mx nb nd my nb nf n nb ng nb nb nh nd nb ninf nc nj nh nc nj nj nd nj nl nenj nm ng nj noninj np nk nj nq nm nj nq nonk nq nq nl nq ns nm nq nunn nq nv np nq nw nr nq nx nt nq nx nv nr ny nx ns ny nz nt ny oanv nx ob nw nx oc ny nx od ony oeoc ny oeoenz oeog ooeoh ob oeoj od oeok of oe ol oh oeol oj of ol ol og ol on oh ol op oiol oq ok ol or om ol os oool ot oq om ot os on ot ouooot ow op ot ox or ot oy ot ot oz ov ot p ox ot p oz oup paov p pc ox p peoy p pf p p pg pb p pg pepaq pg pb q rh pc q s pd pg sk pf pg sl q pg sp s q t sk q t sp rh t tt s t uusc t xl sl t yl t t z ut zz xl t zz z tt zz pk uzz em xl zz y yl zz ----------- zz zz --------------------------------------------------------------------- se zz --------------------------------------------------------------------- pt pk ad ----------- sead ad em ad bk pt ad di----------- ad fr --------------------------------------------------------------------- ad ac bk ad gc diad gc ac -jugc fabk gc ea/ gc tr fr gc ab gc gc us begc detr fadeus fahehebeheretr dehw ab dest dedetibl detihw he bh st bl bh bh rebh pr hw bh ak in bh sh tibh at um bh ar ribh ar at um ar av pr ar al riar wt sh ar ex ar ar pl al ar es wt av cr pl av cr cr al cr et sw cr biex cr jees cr ul ed cr tp bicr tp jeed tp tp et tp tubi tp gr witp sn ul tp _ qutp roaotp rosn qurc roturc dw aorovasn roge_ roterc rososarc im terc im im dw im db saim as geim ur so im wh woim tm as im tm ur wotm tm db tm en as tm iv citm ep wh tm it tx tm weeg tm weep tx auween aucp eg auis iv audr it weay auauby ce auwr dr auwr by cp wr cy cewr cl dr wr br by wr buwr wr sb cl wr sb br cy un sb taun cacl un iovisb ic busb ss un sb ph ioun er ic un er ph caer ck ioer godaer hoss er ct er er iasuer vehoer veiack veha suvefuhovers ct ve_of veve_th cove_th rn hae_re_th coe_re -..> fue_rex rn e_refe_of _th ir e_re_th dy x e_redm fee_redm dy -..> dm il x dm gh dodm el ir dm ek dm dm fieidm dp el dm dp fiil rt rt eirt gl el dp ry ek dp ev dp dp yoth dp yoeort ug ev th ug ug gl ug dueoug ez ry ug wn youg ty poug fohv ug foty poform dufofs hv fo rg wn fod- fofogivl foft rg rm ws girm ws ws vl ws gafs ws aad- ft tn ft ft gb jiws - aaws - tn ji- - ga- id aa- gj tf - sigb - gn tv - if cs - if sitv ieif id iegucs if hisiif rr gn if ec ieif cg hiie i-biec iei-bii-bigui-bism up i-bivorr i-birl cg i-biig n/ i-bi ht voi-biht rl n/ ht ht sm ht hy voht rufl ht rd ig ht tw fm ht zora ht zord fm hn zohy hn -s rahn ut rd zoyw tw zoi/ hn zoputohn boyw hn bobo-s bozitobov yw bogy pubopizibozev bozegy zizeze gf dc eb v zepp ew zewapizeax dc zepw tb dc _pr wadc _pr pw eb _pr e/ tb _pr hp pp _pr rp ax _pr vu_pr _pr fc ys _pr hq rp _pr hq fc e/ hq uays hq rv rp hq dl vuhq yehq hq sy az hq sy dl uatc sy az tc eh rv tc _vt yatc i_cn yesy f/ tc sy i_in _vt tc i_loi_cn tc i_loi_in eh i_lo g/ _vt i_lot/ i_bii_loi_tx f/ i_lots i_loi_louii_pv i_lotl i_tx i_lotl uig/ tl aq i_pv tl uc i_tx tl uets tl sf tl tl ux eq tl ux ud aq uy sf eq uy uy uc uy ef ud uy wl sf uy ip ux uy xv vv uy ps wl uy ps xv vv ps yr ef ps hz w ps ip ps ps ps yt ps yr yr yt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:17:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Proposed monument for poem in a room MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Proposed monument for poem in a room -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:54:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: New de blog/ Texts & Visuals Comments: cc: Poetryetc , UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ - My 91 year old mom critques Helen Adam - Haptic in Montalvo with Brenda Hutchinson / Sound Artist - 'Unpublic' Public Art in San Francisco / David Buuck Lecture (synopsis) & from the Valencia Street Ghost Walk & Window Series: - Swimmer as Goddess - "Triangle" Tragedy - "The Yellow Spot" family As always, your comments appreciated. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:49:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: >2: An Anthology of New Collaborative Poetry (Murphy and Weber, Eds) - SUGAR MULE Comments: To: Imitation poetics , FLUXLIST , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Now available and available for purchase: http://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?S=R&bid=9281928842&cm_mmc=shopcompare-_-base-_-aisbn-_-na ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:42:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'm with you c.a. we're celebratin what? the macy's day parade? how a bankrupt dept. store survived and put on this big balloon thing every year for millions of bucks? home reposseion? the iraqui vets i saw on cnn all blow to bits who don't get enough v.a. funds? or their husd=bands and wives now headed for iraq? or iran's terrorist army or their W. O.D.'s ? 24$ and some beads?? ah well turkeys were indians? so was corn etc? Indians? hey aren't they from india ??? pass the cranberry sauce.... i'll have a drum stick please. On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:45:29 -0500 CA Conrad writes: > Maybe you didn't notice that I was referring to the adults? It was > the adults I blamed, not the children. In fact I made a point of > saying the children know no better. > > What children do and say frightens me BECAUSE it's what the adults > they mimic do and say. Get it? > > We're at war and nearly a million Iraqis are dead. Thanksgiving > makes > me sick at this point. Literally sick! > > As far as being told I'm exaggerating genocide, no. No I'm not. > It's > on historical record that the Puritans were not at all interested > in > sharing space, resources, or much else with Native Americans. > Roger > Williams made it clear that he and his fellow Puritans should at > the > very least PAY the Native Americans for the land being settled, and > it > was this reason as much as any other reason Williams was sent into > exile. He dared look upon the Native Americans as equals, and was > banished. He then founded Providence, Rhode Island. But no, it's > no > exaggeration at all to link the original white settlers with > genocide. > > Many people like to entertain the notion that the Indian Wars were > post Civil War, when in fact the original white settlers starved > entire Native American communities out of their homes and off their > land. The very same white settlers the Native Americans rescued > when > first arriving. That's no exaggeration either to say "rescued," > because if it were not for the Native Americans sharing food and > resources The Mayflower would be unknown to us today. > > And not only that but our first president himself declared war on > the > Iroquois. Washington became known as "Village Destroyer." The > slaughter he unleashed continued for a hundred more years, up to > the > massacre at Wounded Knee. The photographs of that mass grave of > Lakota men, women and children should make anyone sick to their > stomachs. The US 7th Cavalry standing at the edge of the grave > with > their rifles, posing above the twisted and bloody limbs, it's > incredible! And THAT photograph should be in every single high > school > history book! > > If the Native Americans who rescued the settlers from the Mayflower > had any idea what was to come, the evil, wicked, wanton destruction > and murder, would they have fed these people? I like to think they > would have let them starve. > > What I'm proposing is a Thanksgiving Day of giving thanks by saying > NO! > > And being a vegetarian for 20 years (January 1st 2008 it will be 20 > years) I also point out that the lives of turkeys are also very > much > on my mind. Having grown up in rural America I've known turkeys > both > domesticated and wild, and love the birds. They are amazing > creatures > with fascinating lives. The care of a mother turkey, the ritual of > a > Tom defending his turf, and a million nuances outside the obvious, > make me wonder how many people stuffing their faces with the flesh > of > these birds ever care to know how they live. > > I've always admired the Abbie Hoffman quote, "I believe in > compulsory > cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed, there > would be no more wars." > > Anyone else interested in SAYING FUCK NO TO THANKSGIVING DAY, go to > HTTP://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.BLOGSPOT.COM > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:58:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Fwd: [Lucipo] Lale Muldur In-Reply-To: <0A68ED85.6E76098B.001942C5@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Nov 20, 2007 7:33 AM Subject: Fwd: [Lucipo] Lale Muldur To: Muratnn@gmail.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: joseph.donahue@duke.edu To: lucipo@lists.ibiblio.org Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:26:05 -0500 Subject: [Lucipo] Lale Muldur For those of you lucky enough to catch the readings by or in honor of the Turkish poets who took the area by storm this weekend know that it was a moment of extrordinary good fortune for poetry in this neck of the woods. But there was one reading that I can't stop thinking about, it was one of those experiences one does not have that often, I think Frank O'Hara may have had it when he heard Billie Holliday at the 5 Spot, and that is the reading by Lale Muldur of her poem Virgin Mary's smoke, where, as the poem unfolded I certainly stopped breathing, and I think others in the room did as well. It is a poem that is an immense push back against a very dark force, that begins at a dauntingly high rhetorical pitch, evoking Rilke, Every angel is cruel, 13 months spent tied by Virgin ary's rope, that leap moon year terrible-I-don't-know-why angels seperated us. On the nineteenth week of my melancholy, I got to recognize you . . . and sustains it, not with grand flourishes, but with a clear cold eye trained on an adversary, melancholy, depression, some black hole not term does justice to. The poem takes us from abjection, On a black satin sheet I am tracing a gold cross for you. Only this way can I express your absence and slowly, steps forward, deeper into the mire, but with an ever increasing clarity. Waywardness, seeming drift, reveal themselves to be an unerring advance into mythic naratives where the poet evokes with trememndous sharpness and consision the tradition of figurations of the divine feminine. (HD troopers, you know this terrain) How we get to the final and troublingly ecstatic, at least I think its ecstatic, though on rereading it it seems less the triumph it did at the reading, where one could clearly feel not simply the witness of one who has suffered but as if the actual place where it transpired opened before one -- yes I can't help but think in Needian terms here!-- those last lines lonesome . . . is it how it is? You will say to them: "I won't live in your town long . . ." THEN LIKE A NAME THEY'RE ENTERING A DIMENSIONLESS SPACE how we get here, I'm still trying to figure. From the reading one came away with the dark but exalted feeling that this language, so artfully perched at the edge of an inviolable isolation, was recieving a charge from a place beyond it. I think of the Sufic notion of the I that must be slain, so that the I that is of the divine can say itself. And of course such a trasnformation of the personal, the death of that I is symbolic but ir really does have to hurt, or so I glean, the death on some level has to be a real death. Muldur cited Rimbaud in a statement at the beginning of the reading, I think it must have been his voyant letter, and her words made good on such a daunting and lets admit it perilous article of poetic faith. Many thanks to Rob S, and Patrick, and Murat and everyone involved. PS there will soon be a sampler from Murat's anthology EDA up at Jacket. Well worth a click on the screen. Even better, oh my pitchman soul, the book is available, and can be purchased. What a great Christmas present! Eda, under the tree! _______________________________________________ Lucipo mailing list Lucipo@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/lucipo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:42:39 -0600 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: what the Poetry Foundation has done with the money In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A Windfall Illuminates the Poetry Field, and Its Fights Chris Ocken for The New York Times IN November 2002, news of a $100 million grant from the pharmaceutical company heiress Ruth Lilly to the Modern Poetry Association, publisher of Poetry magazine, electrified the arts and philanthropic communities. David Fenza, executive director of the Association of Writers and Writing Programs, was serving on a National Endowment for the Arts grant panel at the time and remembers being shocked by “administrators from all over the world using the term ‘irresponsible philanthropy.’ ” In time, though, he came to agree that “you don’t convey a two-ton load on a bicycle.” The gift, now estimated to be worth $200 million, not only raised eyebrows, but also incited envy among small poetry presses, organizations and magazines. “The problem was, the field is so poor,” Mr. Fenza said. “It’s safe to say the initial disappointment about the grant going all to one entity was huge. “The fact that the Poetry board decided not to be a grant-making organization just threw salt in the wound.” Five years later, the verdict on the Lilly gift and the Chicago-based Poetry Foundation, the Modern Poetry Association’s successor, is generally more positive — though many still wish the money had been distributed more widely, and some critics caution that popular poetry is not necessarily good poetry. The foundation’s accomplishments include a lively, award-winning Web site with poetry podcasts and a poetry best-seller list, a reinvigorated magazine, a set of unusual prizes and, in partnership with the N.E.A., the Poetry Out Loud national high school recitation contest. “On the surface, they’ve done very well in handling a gift of that magnitude,” said Jim Sitter, a Minneapolis fund-raising consultant for literary organizations. “It’s extraordinary that they’ve been able to adapt and change without disturbing the reputation and quality of the magazine — if anything, it perhaps has improved — and at the same time build a set of other programs which take the long view.” Dana Gioia, a poet who is chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts, applauds the foundation for “reaching millions of people with poetry,” and calls it “probably the only literary organization large enough to change the national trends in poetry.” Others, like the poet and critic J. D. McClatchy, argue that rendering poetry suitable for mass consumption may be worse than cultural neglect. “If you make poetry easier to read, does that make poetry better? Or is that finally good for the readership?” Mr. McClatchy asked. “Poetry is supposed to complicate people’s lives, not to reassure them, or to be a humorous relaxation or an amusing spot on the radio.” In line with its goal of raising poetry’s profile, the foundation has sponsored poetry on television (broadcast on “The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer”) and radio (through Garrison Keillor’s “Writer’s Almanac”), as well as in newspapers (the syndicated column “American Life in Poetry,” by Ted Kooser, a former poet laureate of the United States). “It’s a wonderful opportunity for me to show people that poems aren’t something that they have to be afraid of,” Mr. Kooser said. In Chicago, the Poetry Foundation oversees a high-profile poetry series and sponsors events with groups like the Guild Complex, the Art Institute of Chicago and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Its Poetry in America survey, with the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago, emphasized the importance of early involvement with poetry. The foundation has announced the opening of the Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute, named for Poetry magazine’s founder. The institute, partnering with the Aspen Institute, will identify ways of strengthening poetry and expanding its audience, said Anne Halsey, a foundation spokeswoman. The foundation has also selected a Chicago firm to design a 25,000-square-foot downtown office scheduled for completion in 2010. Tree Swenson, executive director of the Academy of American Poets in New York, says she finds many of the foundation’s plans admirable but wishes that the organization would “use the money to leverage additional funding for the entire field” from other nonprofit groups through mechanisms like challenge grants. Mr. McClatchy said he was “dubious about some of the awards” given by the foundation, notably the naming of a Children’s Poet Laureate and the Mark Twain Poetry Award for humorous poetry, both of which come with $25,000 grants. “They just don’t seem to be worth the money,” he said. The foundation’s president, John Barr, an investment banker who has written half a dozen books of poetry, has aroused particular ire. “What puzzles many of us,” said Mr. Fenza of the Association of Writers and Writing Programs, “is that there seems to be a disconnect between the pluralism of Poetry Foundation programming and John Barr’s advocacy for a particular kind of poetry. I call it prairie populism.” In a September 2006 essay in Poetry, Mr. Barr bemoaned the “intellectual and spiritual stagnation” of contemporary poetry, took university writing programs to task for fostering “a climate of careerism” and called for poets to “live broadly, then write boldly.” The reaction was fierce. In a letter published in Poetry, Robert Wrigley, a poet and professor at the University of Idaho, called the essay “insipid” and said “the idea that teachers are by virtue of their employment in the academy not part of the general life of the culture is a canard.” (Through a spokeswoman, Mr. Barr declined to comment for this article.) That Mr. Barr has become a polarizing figure dismays those who sympathize with his goals. H. Peter Karoff, a poet who is founder and chairman of the Philanthropic Initiative, says he has long believed that poetry was “underutilized, underrecognized and undermarketed.” Thanks in part to the Poetry Foundation, he said, “I see evidence that there is more of a presence of poetry in the society.” As for Mr. Barr, however, Mr. Karoff said: “I’m not big into a leadership style where the leader becomes the story. I think it’s diversionary to the goals and mission of an organization.” Mr. Gioia, whose influential 1991 manifesto “Can Poetry Matter?” was cited in Mr. Barr’s essay, called both Mr. Barr’s commentary and the blistering reaction “unfortunate.” As N.E.A. chairman, Mr. Gioia said that he would never attack an arts organization, and he added that he thought Mr. Barr “probably should have a similar kind of code.” “I’m sure there’s a sense that anything he says is somehow the policy of the foundation,” Mr. Gioia said. “I don’t think that’s true.” Poetry magazine’s own origins, in 1912, and early importance owe much to its association with High Modernism, including the work of T. S. Eliot and Ezra Pound. Joseph Parisi, who edited the magazine from 1983 to 2003, used to send personal letters to poets whose work was promising but not up to the magazine’s standards. One grateful recipient was Ruth Lilly, who, even before the bequest, had endowed a $100,000 poetry prize and two fellowships. Mr. Parisi’s successor, Christian Wiman, has tripled Poetry’s circulation, to 30,000, and earned wide praise. Among those who have benefited directly from the foundation’s largess is Brian Culhane, the winner last month of the Emily Dickinson Award, a $10,000 prize given to a poet over 50 who has not published a book of poetry. Jeffrey Shotts, poetry editor of Graywolf Press, which will publish Mr. Culhane’s first book with Poetry Foundation support, said that Mr. Culhane was selected from 1,600 applicants, up more than 400 from the previous year. “Certainly, the award has totally altered my own perception of my career as a poet, and I hope opened up a new galaxy of readers for me,” said Mr. Culhane, a schoolteacher in Seattle. “Prior to that,” he said, “there was maybe a solitary moon or two.” http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/12/giving/12POETRY.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:28:13 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard McLean Subject: please unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <10353CE4-AEE3-45E3-938B-3D869F911F5F@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 20/11/2007, at 2:01 PM, K. R. Waldrop wrote: > New from Burning Deck: > > ULF STOLTERFOHT > Lingos I-IX > translated from the German by Rosmarie Waldrop > Poetry, 128 pages, offset, smyth-sewn > ISBN 978-1-886224-85-8 original paperback $14 > Publication date: November 15, 2007 > > Lingos takes as its playground all the cultural baggage of our turn =20= > of the century and examines it with a mix of deconstruction, parody =20= > and sheer exuberance. The poems flaunt their intent to avoid =20 > linearity, prefabricated meaning and the lyrical I. Instead, they =20 > cultivate irony, punning, fragmenting, juxtaposing, distorting, and =20= > subject everything to an almost compulsive humor =97 the author and =20= > his own methods included. > > Ulf Stolterfoht was born in 1963 in Stuttgart and now lives in =20 > Berlin with his wife and three children. His 3 books of poems are =20 > all called Fachsprachen [lingos, jargons, technical terms] and are =20 > all published by Urs Engeler Editor: > FACHSPRACHEN I-IX (1998), FACHSPRACHEN X-XVIII (2002), which =20 > received the Hans-Erich-Nossack-F=F6rderpreis and the Christine =20 > Lavant-Preis respectively, and most recently, in 2004, FACHSPRACHEN =20= > XIX-XXVII, for which he received the Anna-Seghers-Prize in 2005 and =20= > a stipendium to the German Academy in Rome. > > =93Let us only say, that Stolterfoht=92s poems have something I would =20= > count as new possibilities of poetry: an intellectual serenity that =20= > is not just witty and satirical, but works with advanced poetic =20 > means and proves to be =E0 la hauteur of the satirized subjects.=94=97=20= > J=F6rg Drews, Merkur > > Hhere the entire history of philosophy and literature is first =20 > tossed into the waste basket before it is possibly reused.... But =20 > underneath it all, the author is in search of a serious and usuable =20= > poem, This double bind, on the one hand to serve/use postmodern =20 > recycling and, on the other, to make fun of it, is what I consider =20 > so extraordinary.=94 =97Kurt Drawert, Neue Z=FCrcher Zeitung > > Copies are available from: > Small Press Distribution, 1-800/869-7553 , www.spdbooks.org, =20 > orders@spdbooks.org > H Press: www.hpress.no > Spectacular Diseases, 83b London Rd., Peterborough, Cambs.PE2 9BS, =20 > England ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:14:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: MiPOesias - December Issue In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MiPOesias presents http://www.mipoesias.com/ POETRY (w Poets' Portraits) * Gabriella Torres ~ The History of the Body * Christopher Stackhouse ~ Mater - Pater * Ken Rumble ~ Learn All This Stuff • From St. Apples * Reb livingston ~ The Third Chronicle of Marriage • The Sixth Chronicle of Marriage • The Seventh Chronicle of Marriage • The Eighth Chronicle of Marriage * Sara Femenella ~ The Secret of Everything That Concerns You • Come With Balloons • Seduction • An Apt Misunderstanding and I Would Thank You * Michelle Buchanan ~ My Body Parts • An Experiment in Breathing * Miguel Murphy ~ Cricket • Red • Self-Portrait’s CaravaggioWalking Night’s Pier • Enjoy Flesh! • Coprophagy (2) • Nihilist of the Heart’s Divine * Barbara Jane Reyes ~ The Bamboo’s Insomnia • The Bamboo’s Insomnia 2 • Killer of Ferdinand Magellan • We, Spoken Here • Upland Dance REVIEWS The Indefatigable Hope for Place by Michael Parker Lee Herrick’s This Many Miles from Desire. Xantippe 4/5 The Landscape of Flesh & Blood by Michael Parker. William Aleggrezza’s Fragile Replacements. Pris Campbell’s Abrasions. Reb Livingston’s Your Ten Favorite Words INTERVIEW Jenni Russell asks Billy Collins Enjoy! Amy King, Editor Didi Menendez, Publisher http://www.mipoesias.com/ http://www.mipoesias.com/ http://www.mipoesias.com/ http://www.mipoesias.com/ --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:27:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline CA, I agree with your intent, I'm sure. But I'm confused about tactics and mode, I'm confused as to how "cooking without thinking" contributes to (and furthers) a genocide that happened 400+ years ago. If you seek true reparations, push (push how? I've no idea) govts. to recognize the atrocity and appropriate funds, make amends, etc. I'm on board for Columbus Day, isn't the founding of any country a bit idiotic? (Ceremonious garb, color guard, trumpets a'blaring, long-winded speech by poor writer, etc...) Ryan On Nov 19, 2007 6:03 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > I get that this is something that you are passionate about, and couldn't > agree more that the treatment of the native american nations by european > colonists was an atrocity that our nation is a long way from fully making > amends for. Not only that, but I'm sympathetic to your feelings about animal > rights. I'm not a vegetarian myself, because the arguments for that level of > ethical responsibility to non-human lifeforms are not something that I think > holds water. I am however disgusted by the practices of factory meat > production in the country and for many years have endeavored to keep my diet > as close to the principle of local sustainablity as I can. The older I get, > and the more money I have, the better I've gotten at it. Further many of my > dearest friends are strict vegans and for a number of years I've enjoyed the > fellowship of sitting down to at one particular family's table on > thanksgiving to enjoy the completely animal-product-free meal with them. > > I'm telling you all this because I want you to know that while I'm > sympathetic to your cause, frankly I find your tactics extremely offputting > and my gut reaction to them is to pull away, delete the email and ignore > what you're saying. I'm not doing that because I don't think that gets > anybody anywhere. I'd like to ask you to consider not what you're asking > people to do, but how you're asking them to do it, and also to consider what > the symbolic nature of what you're asking to do is asking people to give up. > > > I won't be fasting with you on Thanksgiving day. As I said on a previous > email, the mythology and ritual of the holiday means far too much to me and > honestly I don't see what participating in your protest would accomplish. > But I want to hear what you have to say, and I think it's important that you > continue to say it. However, I don't know that many other people will react > to you that way unless you find a better way of saying it. > > Sincerely, > Jason Quackenbush > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, CA Conrad wrote: > > > Maybe you didn't notice that I was referring to the adults? It was > > the adults I blamed, not the children. In fact I made a point of > > saying the children know no better. > > > > What children do and say frightens me BECAUSE it's what the adults > > they mimic do and say. Get it? > > > > We're at war and nearly a million Iraqis are dead. Thanksgiving makes > > me sick at this point. Literally sick! > > > > As far as being told I'm exaggerating genocide, no. No I'm not. It's > > on historical record that the Puritans were not at all interested in > > sharing space, resources, or much else with Native Americans. Roger > > Williams made it clear that he and his fellow Puritans should at the > > very least PAY the Native Americans for the land being settled, and it > > was this reason as much as any other reason Williams was sent into > > exile. He dared look upon the Native Americans as equals, and was > > banished. He then founded Providence, Rhode Island. But no, it's no > > exaggeration at all to link the original white settlers with genocide. > > > > Many people like to entertain the notion that the Indian Wars were > > post Civil War, when in fact the original white settlers starved > > entire Native American communities out of their homes and off their > > land. The very same white settlers the Native Americans rescued when > > first arriving. That's no exaggeration either to say "rescued," > > because if it were not for the Native Americans sharing food and > > resources The Mayflower would be unknown to us today. > > > > And not only that but our first president himself declared war on the > > Iroquois. Washington became known as "Village Destroyer." The > > slaughter he unleashed continued for a hundred more years, up to the > > massacre at Wounded Knee. The photographs of that mass grave of > > Lakota men, women and children should make anyone sick to their > > stomachs. The US 7th Cavalry standing at the edge of the grave with > > their rifles, posing above the twisted and bloody limbs, it's > > incredible! And THAT photograph should be in every single high school > > history book! > > > > If the Native Americans who rescued the settlers from the Mayflower > > had any idea what was to come, the evil, wicked, wanton destruction > > and murder, would they have fed these people? I like to think they > > would have let them starve. > > > > What I'm proposing is a Thanksgiving Day of giving thanks by saying NO! > > > > And being a vegetarian for 20 years (January 1st 2008 it will be 20 > > years) I also point out that the lives of turkeys are also very much > > on my mind. Having grown up in rural America I've known turkeys both > > domesticated and wild, and love the birds. They are amazing creatures > > with fascinating lives. The care of a mother turkey, the ritual of a > > Tom defending his turf, and a million nuances outside the obvious, > > make me wonder how many people stuffing their faces with the flesh of > > these birds ever care to know how they live. > > > > I've always admired the Abbie Hoffman quote, "I believe in compulsory > > cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed, there > > would be no more wars." > > > > Anyone else interested in SAYING FUCK NO TO THANKSGIVING DAY, go to > > HTTP://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.BLOGSPOT.COM > > > > CAConrad > > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:13:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you want to think about all the Iraqis killed and abused by the United States and it's armed forces, go see Brian De Palma's new movie "Redacted" on Thanksgiving Day. I emerged numb from it but it was very good, if depressing. Regards, Tom Savage CA Conrad wrote: Earlier today I was reading in the park before going to my stupid job. A pair of nannies arrived on the scene with 2 young boys, one dressed as a cowboy, the other as an indian. "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DROP DEAD WHEN I SHOOT YOU!" "WHY DO I HAVE TO DIE ALL THE TIME!?" "BECAUSE I'M THE COWBOY AND COWBOYS DON'T DIE THE INDIANS DIE!" "I DON'T WANNA BE AN INDIAN NO MORE! I'M TIRED OF DYING ALL THE TIME!" The nannies sat on a bench smoking and talking about boyfriends. It was just another day in Philadelphia celebrating the murderous world we wake yawning toward. What fucking parents in 2007 are buying kids cowboy and indian costumes with cap guns? WHAT IF young German boys wanted to play a game of NAZI and JEW!? WOULD THAT ALSO BE OKAY!? But then again the Germans lost the war. Maybe if the indians won the war the cowboys would die in the game? What the fuck are these fucking parents thinking? "Let's get the boys some cowboy and indian outfits like we had when we were kids! Ah, look at them shoot one another! Brings back memories!" Our country is about to celebrate THANKSGIVING DAY, again! Talk about nostalgia for genocide. How many Americans will mindlessly cook a butchered turkey without any thought of Native American bloodlines having been erased from the planet? Millions and millions of tortured, slaughtered families from every corner of our map. All 50 states experienced this slaughter, enslavement, this giant dark finger tamping out the lights of generations. Languages stuttered into the plains and mountain chains no more. And who will be thinking of the nearly ONE MILLION Iraqis killed since our unprovoked illegal invasion of Iraq? THANKSGIVING DAY!? WE'RE GOING TO CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING DAY!? FUCK THANKSGIVING DAY! For those interested, a campaign to fast on Thanksgiving Day has begun. For more information please go to this site: http://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.blogspot.com When genocide is part of playtime everyone's asleep and murdering by proxy, even your stupid fucking children who know no better, CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:27:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline At least take a moment to think about the people of Iraq on Thanksgiving Day, even if you are not fasting. More and more we begin to realize how incredible their suffering is. And they can't even escape it! Amy Goodman of DEMOCRACY NOW! interviewed a grade school teacher from Baghdad who took MONTHS and MONTHS to be able to get permission to leave Iraq to visit the US! For those who have not heard about this woman, the stories she has are incredibly brutal and difficult to hear. Her students had become pen pals with students in the Bronx. The students in the Bronx slowly watched their pen pals disappear. The United States should be making SPACE for all and any Iraqi citizens who need a safe SPACE to go to, to be taken care of, brought back to healthy people. When we finally pull out of Iraq what about the women for instance? Is no one thinking about the women? Women's lives were very different in Iraq than they are in places like Saudi Arabia and other countries. It worries me that women who have enjoyed their human rights in a secular state will be trampled and enslaved soon. We should be locating a very large parcel of land in the US right now where we are building schools and rehab centers equipped with grief counselors, doctors, libraries, for Iraqis who need to shelter and comfort. It's clear we have made Iraq nothing but unstable. People are suffering every single day. This is what I want us to think about on Thanksgiving Day. But maybe you don't pay your taxes, meaning that you are not complicit. In that case your conscience should be free and clean. Have a nice Thanksgiving Day. BY THE WAY THIS GOES FOR CANADIANS WHO HAVE SPENT TIME LIVING AND WORKING IN THE UNITED STATES POST IRAQ INVASION. You too have aided the cause by paying American taxes. I say this because I JUST yesterday had a conversation with a Canadian who has been living and working in Philadelphia for the last three years. He kept blaming us, saying Americans are all to blame because we all allow it to continue. When I pointed out that he was paying taxes and also funding the war he got a little annoyed. And he makes twice as much money as I do, maybe more, and I pointed out that he pays more taxes than I do as a result. "How many more bullets are you sending over the ocean?" In the end we are all guilty! United in our guilt! The web page once again for those who want to join the fast: http://ThanksgivingDayFast.blogspot.com We are all guilty! United in our guilt! I cannot CELEBRATE a day of THANKS while my country is at war. I am not as grateful as I am angry, disappointed, and wanting to make the world safer, CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:30:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: War & Peace vol. 3: THE FUTURE the NYC launch! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Peace On A presents War & Peace vol. 3 (NYC launch!) with readings by: Bruce Andrews CAConrad Michael Cross Thom Donovan Brenda Iijima Paolo Javier Susan Landers Evelyn Reilly & Rodrigo Toscano Tuesday, November 27th 2007 8PM hosted by Thom Donovan at: 166 Avenue A (btwn 10th and 11th), Apartment #2 about War & Peace vol. 3 War and Peace 3/The Future, edited by Judith Goldman & Leslie Scalapino, Borrowing Tolstoy's title and basing our manifestation of War and Peace on the conception that everything goes on in war and peace, the editors, Judith Goldman and Leslie Scalapino, have gathered forty poets on the theme of "The Future." The future arises with (at the same time as) history and the present. Included in the forty are Lyn Hejinian, Fanny Howe, Lisa Jarnot, Bruce Andrews, Rodrigo Toscano, Anselm Hollo, Paolo Javier, Laynie Browne, Anne Waldman, Jen Hofer=85 "the migrating cranes=97whose lines of flight misalign what *will have been* with what'll be no more=85" ~ Rob Halpern ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:10:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: [Flickr] - Light Remains Visual Poetry gallery d-b Chirot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi, > > I want you to see my "Light Remains" photos! They're on a > cool website called Flickr. > > Just follow this link to my photos: > > http://www.flickr.com/gp/8237952@N06/M4Kb74 and also at Blog: David-Baptiste Chirot Post: flickr: LIGHT REMAINS --d-b Chirot Link: http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2007/11/flickr-light-remains-d-b-chirot.html > > If the link doesn't work, try copying and pasting it from > this email into your browser's address bar. > > See you on Flickr! > > chirOt zerO > > -------------------------------------- > You are receiving this email because someone you know wants > to share photos in their Flickr photostream with you. If you > are not interested, just ignore this email. Flickr won't bug > you again and there's nothing special you have to do. > > To learn more about Flickr's use of personal information > please read our Privacy Policy. Flickr is located at Flickr > c/o Yahoo!, 701 First Avenue, Sunnyvale, CA 94089. > > Go to Privacy Policy: http://flickr.com/privacy_policy.gne > ________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. Power up! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:11:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! In-Reply-To: <20071120.010104.1104.15.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I still can't get over this line "I DON'T WANNA BE AN INDIAN NO MORE! I'M TIRED OF DYING ALL THE TIME!" that sums it all all up. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 23:42 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! i'm with you c.a. we're celebratin what? the macy's day parade? how a bankrupt dept. store survived and put on this big balloon thing every year for millions of bucks? home reposseion? the iraqui vets i saw on cnn all blow to bits who don't get enough v.a. funds? or their husd=3Dbands and wives now headed for iraq? or iran's terrorist army or their W. O.D.'s ? 24$ and some beads?? ah well turkeys were indians? so was corn etc? Indians? hey aren't they from india ??? pass the cranberry sauce.... i'll have a drum stick please. On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:45:29 -0500 CA Conrad writes: > Maybe you didn't notice that I was referring to the adults? It was > the adults I blamed, not the children. In fact I made a point of > saying the children know no better. >=20 > What children do and say frightens me BECAUSE it's what the adults > they mimic do and say. Get it? >=20 > We're at war and nearly a million Iraqis are dead. Thanksgiving=20 > makes > me sick at this point. Literally sick! >=20 > As far as being told I'm exaggerating genocide, no. No I'm not. =20 > It's > on historical record that the Puritans were not at all interested=20 > in > sharing space, resources, or much else with Native Americans. =20 > Roger > Williams made it clear that he and his fellow Puritans should at=20 > the > very least PAY the Native Americans for the land being settled, and=20 > it > was this reason as much as any other reason Williams was sent into > exile. He dared look upon the Native Americans as equals, and was > banished. He then founded Providence, Rhode Island. But no, it's=20 > no > exaggeration at all to link the original white settlers with=20 > genocide. >=20 > Many people like to entertain the notion that the Indian Wars were > post Civil War, when in fact the original white settlers starved > entire Native American communities out of their homes and off their > land. The very same white settlers the Native Americans rescued=20 > when > first arriving. That's no exaggeration either to say "rescued," > because if it were not for the Native Americans sharing food and > resources The Mayflower would be unknown to us today. >=20 > And not only that but our first president himself declared war on=20 > the > Iroquois. Washington became known as "Village Destroyer." The > slaughter he unleashed continued for a hundred more years, up to=20 > the > massacre at Wounded Knee. The photographs of that mass grave of > Lakota men, women and children should make anyone sick to their > stomachs. The US 7th Cavalry standing at the edge of the grave=20 > with > their rifles, posing above the twisted and bloody limbs, it's > incredible! And THAT photograph should be in every single high=20 > school > history book! >=20 > If the Native Americans who rescued the settlers from the Mayflower > had any idea what was to come, the evil, wicked, wanton destruction > and murder, would they have fed these people? I like to think they > would have let them starve. >=20 > What I'm proposing is a Thanksgiving Day of giving thanks by saying=20 > NO! >=20 > And being a vegetarian for 20 years (January 1st 2008 it will be 20 > years) I also point out that the lives of turkeys are also very=20 > much > on my mind. Having grown up in rural America I've known turkeys=20 > both > domesticated and wild, and love the birds. They are amazing=20 > creatures > with fascinating lives. The care of a mother turkey, the ritual of=20 > a > Tom defending his turf, and a million nuances outside the obvious, > make me wonder how many people stuffing their faces with the flesh=20 > of > these birds ever care to know how they live. >=20 > I've always admired the Abbie Hoffman quote, "I believe in=20 > compulsory > cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed, there > would be no more wars." >=20 > Anyone else interested in SAYING FUCK NO TO THANKSGIVING DAY, go to > HTTP://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.BLOGSPOT.COM >=20 > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:29:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide!//Help fight Hunger in your neighborhood & caused by US policies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I understand the symbolic gesture of a person who can eat daily for one day joining the billions of the hungry and starving who do so year round, a great many of them a direct cause of US policies, at home and abroad. But it doesn't help feed anyone who doesn't want to be hungry and is forced to be so. Every Thanksgiving--and every day of the year--there's a huge need for volunteers, organizers, activists, contributors in any way--to fight against the hunger in the USA often right down the street, and growing daily, and the hunger being spread directly by American money in Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Afghanistan and indirectly in many dozen countries around the world. (In Lebanon this year 25% of farm lands were unusable because of the millions of illegally supplied and used US cluster bombs dropped there during the Israeli invasion of 2006. By the US's own laws, cluster bombs are illegal to supply to anyone known to be using them on civilian populations.) A great many of my mother's family were murdered in the Holocaust of the Americas. The way to remember them is to do something for the persons being starved, deprived of health care, livelihoods, decent schools, homes, heating, electricity by the policies and billions of dollars of the Government in the USA and abroad. I think a form eugenics of the poor is going on in this country, and that abroad not only through wars but via billions in aid, the US government openly funds near-starvation as a weapon. Instead of just being too mad to eat for a day, there's a lot one can do to get involved in changing things in adults games so the children --and parents--won't be going hungry, from one's neighborhood to whole countries. Hunger is a weapon used against children, to destroy the future of "unwanted" persons and "enemies" in American cities and towns and those under American attack. The sanctions on Iraq and the continual bombings --President Clinton dropped more bombs than any other American president--following the Gulf War and leading to the Invasion and Occupation--killed over a half million children. Then there is the "Quiet Holocaust" of 7 million children a year due to "structural adjustments" of economies in Latin America and Africa. Starvation, disease, ethnic cleansing, proxy wars, sanctions--Somalia, Darfur, Congo, Niger, Rwanda--and many more-- And this also creates more such "enemies" among the survivors. More people who won't deserve to live in other countries, the killing of whom takes away ever more funding in the US due to "security," creating further lack of health care, collapsing infra-structures, lack of fuel assistance, foreclosures . . . How many to die in the War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terror? Children are the future--one may weep and rage for the past, but the present and future are in our own hands. Here is an example, from a story originally in the Los Angeles Times, 24 September 2007, of one such situation of US foreign aid dollars at work , what it means for the futures of children, one that has grown much worse in the almost two months since then. The War on Gaza\'s Children By Saree Makdisi PalestineChronicle.com An entire generation of Palestinians in Gaza is growing up stunted: physically and nutritionally stunted because they are not getting enough to eat; emotionally stunted because of the pressures of living in a virtual prison and facing the constant threat of destruction and displacement; intellectually and academically stunted because they cannot concentrate -- or, even if they can, because they are trying to study and learn in circumstances that no child should have to endure. Even before Israel this week declared Gaza "hostile territory" -- apparently in preparation for cutting off the last remaining supplies of fuel and electricity to 1.5 million men, women and children -- the situation was dire. As a result of Israel\'s blockade on most imports and exports and other policies designed to punish the populace, about 70% of Gaza\'s workforce is now unemployed or without pay, according to the United Nations, and about 80% of its residents live in grinding poverty. About 1.2 million of them are now dependent for their day-to-day survival on food handouts from U.N. or international agencies, without which, as the World Food Program\'s Kirstie Campbell put it, "they are liable to starve." An increasing number of Palestinian families in Gaza are unable to offer their children more than one meager meal a day, often little more than rice and boiled lentils. Fresh fruit and vegetables are beyond the reach of many families. Meat and chicken are impossibly expensive. Gaza faces the rich waters of the Mediterranean, but fish is unavailable in its markets because the Israeli navy has curtailed the movements of Gaza\'s fishermen. Los Angeles parents who have spent the last few weeks running from one back-to-school sale to another could do worse than to spare a few minutes to think about their counterparts in the Gaza Strip. As a result of the siege, Gaza is not only short of raw textiles and other key goods but also paper, ink and vital school supplies. One-third of Gaza\'s children started the school year missing necessary textbooks. John Ging, the Gaza director of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, whose schools take care of 200,000 children in Gaza, has warned that children come to school "hungry and unable to concentrate." Israel says that its policies in Gaza are designed to put pressure on the Palestinian population to in turn put pressure on those who fire crude home-made rockets from Gaza into the Israeli town of Sderot. Those rocket attacks are wrong. But it is also wrong to punish an entire population for the actions of a few -- actions that the schoolchildren of Gaza and their beleagueredparents are in any case powerless to stop. It is a violation of international law to collectively punish more than a million people for something they did not do. According to the Geneva Convention, to which it is a signatory, Israel actually has the obligation to ensure the well-being of the people on whom it has chosen to impose a military occupation for more than four decades. Instead, it has shrugged off the law. It has ignored the repeated demands of the U.N. Security Council. It has dismissed the International Court of Justice in the Hague. What John Dugard, the U.N.\'s special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied territories, refers to as the "carefully managed" strangulation of Gaza -- in full view of an uncaring world -- is explicitly part of its strategy. "The idea," said Dov Weisglass, an Israeli government advisor, "is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not make them die of hunger." -Saree Makdisi is a professor of English literature at UCLA and the author of "Palestine Inside Out: An Everyday Occupation," forthcoming from Norton. (This article was first published by the Los Angeles Times; republished with permission from the author) On Nov 17, 2007 8:24 PM, CA Conrad wrote: > Earlier today I was reading in the park before going to my stupid job. > A pair of nannies arrived on the scene with 2 young boys, one dressed > as a cowboy, the other as an indian. > > "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DROP DEAD WHEN I SHOOT YOU!" > > "WHY DO I HAVE TO DIE ALL THE TIME!?" > > "BECAUSE I'M THE COWBOY AND COWBOYS DON'T DIE THE INDIANS DIE!" > > "I DON'T WANNA BE AN INDIAN NO MORE! I'M TIRED OF DYING ALL THE TIME!" > > The nannies sat on a bench smoking and talking about boyfriends. It > was just another day in Philadelphia celebrating the murderous world > we wake yawning toward. > > What fucking parents in 2007 are buying kids cowboy and indian > costumes with cap guns? WHAT IF young German boys wanted to play a > game of NAZI and JEW!? WOULD THAT ALSO BE OKAY!? But then again the > Germans lost the war. Maybe if the indians won the war the cowboys > would die in the game? > > What the fuck are these fucking parents thinking? "Let's get the boys > some cowboy and indian outfits like we had when we were kids! Ah, > look at them shoot one another! Brings back memories!" > > Our country is about to celebrate THANKSGIVING DAY, again! Talk about > nostalgia for genocide. > > How many Americans will mindlessly cook a butchered turkey without any > thought of Native American bloodlines having been erased from the > planet? Millions and millions of tortured, slaughtered families from > every corner of our map. All 50 states experienced this slaughter, > enslavement, this giant dark finger tamping out the lights of > generations. Languages stuttered into the plains and mountain chains > no more. > > And who will be thinking of the nearly ONE MILLION Iraqis killed since > our unprovoked illegal invasion of Iraq? THANKSGIVING DAY!? > > WE'RE GOING TO CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING DAY!? > > FUCK THANKSGIVING DAY! > > For those interested, a campaign to fast on Thanksgiving Day has > begun. For more information please go to this site: > http://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.blogspot.com > > When genocide is part of playtime everyone's asleep and murdering by > proxy, even your stupid fucking children who know no better, > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:01:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed There's not a day that goes by that I don't take a moment to think about the people of Iraq. At the same time, I don't really buy the argument that citizens of a republic, and even less foreign nationals, are complicit in the actions of their government simply by virtue of paying taxes to the state. in all seriousness, this war isn't being funded by tax dollars, it's being funded by a grotesque budget deficit. Which means the people paying for it are not the people paying taxes today, but the people who will be paying taxes thirty years from now. I'll probably be one of them, knock on wood, but many of them are not even alive today. Are they complicit? ARe those of us who voted against King George in our attempt to keep him out of power complicit? I don't think so. There are plenty of things that people are blameworthy for, but I don't agree that you can pin the iraq war on the entirety of the populace just by virtue of us living here. Generally speaking you're right: to quote the sex pistols or tool, whichever you prefer, no one is innocent. But just because we're not innocent doesn't mean we're guilty of every crime that's ever been committed by a bully. Bullying, which is what we're talking about here, whether it's done by a nation against another, or a bigger kid on the playground against a smaller kid, is about as unjust and immoral as actions go. But participation in an unjust action by itself doesn't confer guilt. It never has and it never will. Anything stating otherwise is just propaganda and politics, and frankly I've had enough of that sort of thing over the last decade or so. It won't be until the discourse of the populace that has become so shrill and clangorous can once again be conducted rationally, calmly, and open mindedly that democracy can work. There are a lot of people to blame for that shrillness, and I'd suggest that endeavoring to be innocent of that charge is every bit as important to preventing injustice (particularly for american citizens) as is accepting the realities of the evils our government is doing and has done in the world. On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, CA Conrad wrote: > At least take a moment to think about the people of Iraq on > Thanksgiving Day, even if you are not fasting. > > More and more we begin to realize how incredible their suffering is. > And they can't even escape it! Amy Goodman of DEMOCRACY NOW! > interviewed a grade school teacher from Baghdad who took MONTHS and > MONTHS to be able to get permission to leave Iraq to visit the US! > For those who have not heard about this woman, the stories she has are > incredibly brutal and difficult to hear. Her students had become pen > pals with students in the Bronx. The students in the Bronx slowly > watched their pen pals disappear. > > The United States should be making SPACE for all and any Iraqi > citizens who need a safe SPACE to go to, to be taken care of, brought > back to healthy people. When we finally pull out of Iraq what about > the women for instance? Is no one thinking about the women? Women's > lives were very different in Iraq than they are in places like Saudi > Arabia and other countries. It worries me that women who have enjoyed > their human rights in a secular state will be trampled and enslaved > soon. > > We should be locating a very large parcel of land in the US right now > where we are building schools and rehab centers equipped with grief > counselors, doctors, libraries, for Iraqis who need to shelter and > comfort. > > It's clear we have made Iraq nothing but unstable. People are > suffering every single day. > > This is what I want us to think about on Thanksgiving Day. > > But maybe you don't pay your taxes, meaning that you are not > complicit. In that case your conscience should be free and clean. > Have a nice Thanksgiving Day. > > BY THE WAY THIS GOES FOR CANADIANS WHO HAVE SPENT TIME LIVING AND > WORKING IN THE UNITED STATES POST IRAQ INVASION. You too have aided > the cause by paying American taxes. > > I say this because I JUST yesterday had a conversation with a Canadian > who has been living and working in Philadelphia for the last three > years. He kept blaming us, saying Americans are all to blame because > we all allow it to continue. When I pointed out that he was paying > taxes and also funding the war he got a little annoyed. And he makes > twice as much money as I do, maybe more, and I pointed out that he > pays more taxes than I do as a result. "How many more bullets are you > sending over the ocean?" > > In the end we are all guilty! United in our guilt! > > The web page once again for those who want to join the fast: > http://ThanksgivingDayFast.blogspot.com > > We are all guilty! United in our guilt! > > I cannot CELEBRATE a day of THANKS while my country is at war. I am > not as grateful as I am angry, disappointed, and wanting to make the > world safer, > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:24:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Potree Journal Subject: Launch Reading: Dos Press & Hex Presse Comments: To: cm49600@gmail.com, Discussion of Women's Poetry List , julia drescher , Michalle Gould , mdetorie@yahoo.com, Karen McBurney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The launch reading for the second Dos Press chapbook and the first chap from Hex Presse will be at Okay Mountain in Austin, TX, on December 1st at 7:00PM. Directions to the venue can be found at the gallery's website: http://www.okaymountain.com/site.php. Readers: Michelle Detorie (reading w/Austin drummer, Chris Cogburn) Michael Cross Michalle Gould Info on the chaps, including purchasing links, can be found here (www.dospress.blogspot.com) and here (http://hexpresse.blogspot.com/). If you're in the area, please stop by! BIOS: Michelle Detorie lives in Goleta, CA where she tutors writing and works with rescued seabirds. She edits WOMB poetry and Hex Presse. Her poems have appeared in How2, Foursquare, Typo, and elsewhere. A chapbook, _DAPHNMOANCY_, was published by Peter Ganick's Small Chapbook Project and another chapbook, _Bellum Letters_, was published as part of the Dusie Chapbook Kollektiv. Visit her online: www.daphnomancy.com. Michael Cross edited _Involuntary Vision: after Akira Kurosawa's Dreams_ (Avenue B, 2003), and is currently editing an anthology of the George Oppen Memorial Lectures at San Francisco State University. He publishes Atticus/Finch Chapbooks (www.atticusfinch.org), and his first book, _in felt treeling_, is forthcoming from Tucson, Arizona's Chax Press. He is currently a doctorial candidate at SUNY Buffalo. Michalle Gould lives in Austin, Texas, and teaches writing at St. Edwards University. Her _Resurrection Party_ is the first chapbook from Hex Presse. She blogs at haikubotany.blogspot.com. Chris Cogburn - percussion - austin Austin-based improvising percussionist Chris Cogburn is an active composer, performer, educator and organizer within an expansive global community of creative artists. Approaching the physical nature of his chosen instrument with an interest and attention to the drum's subtle and overlooked timbres and textures, Cogburn's music gives rise to unexpected sound worlds suffused with meanings and forms, acute yet infinite. Moving across, atop, below and around a single drum with a variety of percussive objects and implements, Cogburn's fluid physicality provides a rich dynamic to an expanding complexity of sound. Primarily working in the field of Creative Improvised Music, Cogburn has collaborated with many of the premiere international artists in contemporary music, including: John Butcher, Pauline Oliveros, Stuart Dempster, Dave Dove, Joelle Leandre, Jaap Blonk, Sean Meehan, Joe McPhee and avant-rock outsider Jandek. Current projects include Cogburn's inter-media group For Forms with poets Joshua Beckman and Jen Bervin, dancer Scotty Heron and avant-turntablist Maria Chavez; and frequent duo collaborations with Vancouver percussionist Jeffrey Allport, avant-vocalist Liz Tonne and Seattle-based pianist Gust Burns. Since 1998, Cogburn has led workshops on creative music making around the US, Canada and Mexico, working in contexts as diverse as inner city community centers, homeless shelters, battered women's shelters, art spaces, dance studios, public and private high schools and elementary schools, Pauline Oliveros' Deep Listening Space and the Universidad Aut=F3noma de Nuevo Le=F3n, Mexico. He has recently received performance and teaching grants through Meet The Composer, Creative Connections and The Yellow Fox Foundation; held residencies through Seattle Improvised Music, Nameless Sound and Gallery 1412; and has performed at the No Idea Festival, the Seattle Improvised Music Festival, Fuse Box Festival and the No West Festival. In October 2006 Cogburn was fortunate enough to travel on the Wave Books Poetry Bus, performing solo and with poet/Wave Books editor Joshua Beckman, with a final performance at James Turrell's Roden Crater. As an organizer, Cogburn has previously hosted performances by international improvisors, always in direct collaboration with local artists. Beginning in the summer of 2003, Cogburn's Ten Pounds To The Sound has hosted an annual festival of improvised music - the No Idea Festival - showcasing a handful of Texas' premiere creative musicians in collaboration with improvisors from around the U.S., Europe, Japan, Mexico and Canada. Regarded as "one of the finest creative improvised music festivals in the world" (Paris Transatlantic) NIF aspires to connect creative musicians, providing the space and time where creative relationships can flourish, leading towards new areas and approaches in the music. For more information, see: www.noideafestival.com. --=20 www.littleredleaves.com www.littleredleavesjournal.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Memory of a Walk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Memory of a Walk I walked last Wednesday from the MCM building at Brown University to the train station downtown. I took the 6:16 to New York. It arrived around 9:50 at Penn Station. On the way I remembered the walk. I followed myself step by step, reconstructing as I went along. This was six days ago. Now again I remember. What did you think you were doing? Memory and reconstruction worries me. I wanted to follow myself. I didn't think of this at the time, that is the time of the walk itself, but only later. I conductor asked if I were a philosopher; I think I appeared deep in thought. I wanted to remember as much as possible. Later, several times in the past six days, I thought I would try and remember again, try to write everything down. But I thought this would take too much effort; it wasn't until now, Tuesday, that I've had the energy to proceed. What did you take with you? I'm clearing my belongings out of Leslie Thornton's office. This trip I took, in addition to what I brought up, a Cambodian bowed instrument, a pair of slippers, some extra toiletries, a white towel. The towel and a plastic bag were wrapped around the instrument and inserted into a cloth bag. It was damp out. I added a polka-dotted umbrella as well, in case I needed it. Where did you go? I went down the stairs and out the front door. Susan and Ellen were in the office talking. I didn't say anything to them. I walked out the door and turned right. What did you do then? I walked to the corner. I thought about going straight down as usual, but instead crossed the street. I began walking up a slight hill to the Brown Quadrangle. I passed two people as I turned into the Quadrangle. I took a diagonal left, which would leave me out between two libraries. Wait, I remember crossing the first intersection. I think there was little or no traffic. Then? Then I walked diagonally through the cold mist, almost but not quite a rain. I went through the gates to the top of the street. I didn't notice the sculpture on the left; usually I look at it. I crossed the street. I was surprised there was no traffic. I thought that usually there was traffic. I began the descent of the hill. I passed the location of the old Brown Music Department, where I had played several times; I thought about that. I didn't think about the arts building that replaced it. I went straight down the hill. I arrived at Benefit Street. At Benefit Street you had several choices. What did you decide here? I crossed Benefit street; I believe there was some traffic, but I'm not sure. I continued going down the hill. I passed a corner building and looked in a window. I wondered whether the window was where my studio at Rhode Island School of Design used to be. I thought again about the accusation I had stolen equipment and wondered how S. could possibly think that since I had no place to take it but the school itself. I looked in other windows on the way down; they were studios. I think they might have been drawing studios; I'm not sure. I reached the bottom of the hill. Now you're into the city itself, or at least the outskirts of the city, by Providence River. What did you do? I crossed the intersection here. This one I remember being easy. I arrived at the bank of the river, the bank nearest the hill. I thought that the time before I had crossed and taken the other bank. I found that the river split, and that I was thrown off-course, that I ended up guiding myself by the Statehouse dome. This time I felt tired, and stayed on the nearer bank. I looked into the water as I walked towards the train station; I couldn't see anything. I reached the next corner. Then there was traffic? There was a lot of traffic. I ran across the street; I was almost hit. I continued on the other side. Did you press the button for the traffic signal? I remember a button, but it might have been farther on. I didn't press it, I think. Perhaps I did. And then? Then I continued walking. I think it was either this block or the next, possibly the end of this block, still by the river, that I heard foot- steps. Or possibly saw someone ahead of me. But I think it began with the footsteps. At the next intersection. We're then at another heavily trafficked one? Yes, the footsteps belonged to a woman, I think possibly a student, carry- ing a backpack or small suitcase of some sort. I didn't see her full-on; I couldn't identify her, but thought she might be blond. What happened? She had crossed the street and I crossed as well, somewhat behind her. This was the second time I was almost hit; I wanted to make the light, since the signals were long. And then? The road curved up ahead. Wait, there was a four-way stop intersection. She continued up the curve on the left. I walked part of the way across the bridge, crossing the Providence River. I stopped and looked down in the water. I was looking for the herring or shad family fish I had seen there before, in large schools. It was dark out; I looked for ripples in the water. The week before I was guided by ripples. This time there were none. I couldn't remember the name of the fish, something like mulhagen; I still can't remember. I was frustrated, worried that I couldn't remember. After looking in the water for a while? I crossed the street. There was hardly any traffic. I looked up ahead to see if the student was heading to the train station. I thought I saw her; I couldn't be sure. I stopped on the other side of the street, which was the other side of the bridge. I looked again down at the black water; I was looking for the fish on the other side. Most of the time I had seen them on this, the other side. This time again there was nothing, no ripples, at least none visible. But wait. Wait? On the first, left-hand side of the bridge, I saw a leaf in the water; it was large, and looked like one of the fish on its side; I wondered if it was in fact one that was dying. When I looked on the other, right-hand side of the bridge, I saw several more, and it was clear that they were leaves, slowly going down the river. Which way were they going? I'm not sure; the river flowed slowly, but I believe from the right-hand side to the left-hand side and beyond. And then? Then I began walking up the hill towards the train station. I had again to go out into the street because the sidewalk was partly closed due to construction. I walked past a number of parked cars on the right, in this fashion. I noticed the construction was coming along, and remembered hearing that apartments were to be built here. As I walked up the hill I walked over a recently-asphalted entrance to the construction site, or near the entrance. I wondered why the asphalt had been poured; it could only be temporary and didn't seem to serve any purpose. I continued up the sidewalk. Did you see any birds? No, often in the daytime, particularly in the spring, I had seen birds around the site and in the trees directly to the left of the train station. But this time there was nothing. I looked down into the huge excavation beyond the immediate construction and noticed for the second time, the train platform, I think it was the platform for the number 1 and 2 tracks, jutting out into it. The platform looked oddly spacious and beautiful in the dark. I continued walking past the trees. This was near the taxicab stand? This went directly past the taxi stand. I saw a number of drivers standing around; they were speaking a language I didn't understand. At first I thought, this might be Pakistani, but then I thought Italian; I couldn't hear well enough. The drivers all seemed to know one another. I wondered what would happen if a new driver came along, who didn't speak the language - would he or she be accepted in the group? Would the group, on occasion, speak English to him or her? Would the driver be ignored? This went on only for an instant. I reached the station doors and went in. Just went in? I remember looking at my cellphone on the way, at least twice, checking on the time. I was early as usual; I think I arrived at 5:34, for the 6:16, but I'm not sure. I was hungry. How long did the walk take? I think it took about twenty-one minutes, but I couldn't be sure. If I had gone directly, it would have taken between seventeen and eighteen. You were hungry? Were you hungry the whole time? I was hungry the whole time; I had only breakfast at Louie's, a #1 with orange juice extra, I think, beforehand. I was going to drink some Red Bull to keep me going through the day, but had a large coffee with skim milk instead; the Red Bull is still in the office. So what did you do? I went to the small cafe inside the train station. The man who served me wasn't there; the woman was. I had often wondered about their relation- ship; they seemed tight. I ordered, I think, something with apricot; I'm not sure. I do remember eating it without getting sticky; I didn't have to wash my hands afterwards. And this whole time you were carrying both your camera bag with various things you had brought with you, as well as the cloth bag contraption with the Cambodian instrument and other things? Yes. I believe I also took back a copy of The Structure of Reality with me on this trip. I had a copy of Claire's demo DVD, since I'm writing a recommendation for her. I remember I didn't change clothes; the clean ones were still in the bag. I had some trail mix left over from the ride up. I didn't want to order anything on the train. And you were reading? Yes, I had books with me, but I'm not sure I remember them. I definitely had Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey, which I had read; now I wanted to finish Sanditon which was in the same Penguin volume, which of course I did. And I had a copy of David Hume's Enquiry with me as well; I had been reading about miracles. But I think there might have been a third book. The week before I had carried a relatively medieval history of the tantric schools of Tibet, but I don't think I had it with me this time. What else were you carrying? Other than the usual identifications, I had a small Olympus solid-state recorder for notes. I didn't use it - I had been hoping to. The camera bag was somewhat heavy of course. Another item - a small power supply for the phone. Do you remember going down the stairs from the office? Not very well. I do remember having to negotiate the stairs because of the awkwardness of the instrument package. Once outside, things were easy. I had been afraid of rain; the skies were threatening all day. But as I said, there was none, or rather just a light misting, slightly, nothing more. Money? I had taken sixty dollars with me, but had spent very little. I spent nothing on the train on the way up, so I had all of that. I spent little there, and little on the train. I had walked down to Wickenden or Wickendon street to go to an antique shop; I was hoping to find some useful books, but nothing seemed promising. So I had most of the money with me of course. I also had four rolls of unused Tri-X and Plus-X (the new Plus-X) 16mm movie film to shoot in the winter and spring. And on the way up I had brought a mini-DV tape for transferring the second roll I had shot, but the roll wasn't back and the tape stayed in the office. Anything else? Some recommendation forms from Claire; I had to fill these out. I was afraid they would get bent. I put them between the pages of something else I was carrying back - I don't remember, a pamphlet of some sort. Were you tired when you walked down to the train station? I was extremely tired; I had hardly slept the night before - I coughed a lot, there were sounds around, etc. I should add I sleep in the office to save money; there's a futon. So I was glad that the air was bracing. I went down to the train platform itself - #1 as usual - at 6:04 - I remember looking at the clock - because it was open to the air and would wake me up. I walked down; I haven't taken the elevator for a long time. I noticed that the construction inside the station was down for the first time - there were new escalators installed, but the one for track #1 only went up. Anything else? Only that I remembered, as I approached the station, that I would be too tired, and it would be too late, to go to the Border's bookshop in the nearby mall. When I went into the station, I wouldn't come out again, at least until the train I boarded left, which it did, two minutes late. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:43:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit here here On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:27:32 -0500 CA Conrad writes: > At least take a moment to think about the people of Iraq on > Thanksgiving Day, even if you are not fasting. > > More and more we begin to realize how incredible their suffering > is. > And they can't even escape it! Amy Goodman of DEMOCRACY NOW! > interviewed a grade school teacher from Baghdad who took MONTHS and > MONTHS to be able to get permission to leave Iraq to visit the US! > For those who have not heard about this woman, the stories she has > are > incredibly brutal and difficult to hear. Her students had become > pen > pals with students in the Bronx. The students in the Bronx slowly > watched their pen pals disappear. > > The United States should be making SPACE for all and any Iraqi > citizens who need a safe SPACE to go to, to be taken care of, > brought > back to healthy people. When we finally pull out of Iraq what > about > the women for instance? Is no one thinking about the women? > Women's > lives were very different in Iraq than they are in places like > Saudi > Arabia and other countries. It worries me that women who have > enjoyed > their human rights in a secular state will be trampled and enslaved > soon. > > We should be locating a very large parcel of land in the US right > now > where we are building schools and rehab centers equipped with grief > counselors, doctors, libraries, for Iraqis who need to shelter and > comfort. > > It's clear we have made Iraq nothing but unstable. People are > suffering every single day. > > This is what I want us to think about on Thanksgiving Day. > > But maybe you don't pay your taxes, meaning that you are not > complicit. In that case your conscience should be free and clean. > Have a nice Thanksgiving Day. > > BY THE WAY THIS GOES FOR CANADIANS WHO HAVE SPENT TIME LIVING AND > WORKING IN THE UNITED STATES POST IRAQ INVASION. You too have > aided > the cause by paying American taxes. > > I say this because I JUST yesterday had a conversation with a > Canadian > who has been living and working in Philadelphia for the last three > years. He kept blaming us, saying Americans are all to blame > because > we all allow it to continue. When I pointed out that he was paying > taxes and also funding the war he got a little annoyed. And he > makes > twice as much money as I do, maybe more, and I pointed out that he > pays more taxes than I do as a result. "How many more bullets are > you > sending over the ocean?" > > In the end we are all guilty! United in our guilt! > > The web page once again for those who want to join the fast: > http://ThanksgivingDayFast.blogspot.com > > We are all guilty! United in our guilt! > > I cannot CELEBRATE a day of THANKS while my country is at war. I > am > not as grateful as I am angry, disappointed, and wanting to make > the > world safer, > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:53:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: NYC/Boog City presents Big Game Books and Alex Battles Tues. Nov. 27 Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ---------------- =20 Boog City presents =20 d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press =20 Big Game Books (Washington, D.C.) =20 Tues. Nov. 27, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free =20 ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC =20 Event will be hosted by Big Game Books editor Maureen Thorson =20 =20 Featuring readings from =20 Sandra Beasley Shafer Hall Ada Lim=F3n Logan Ryan Smith =20 and music from =20 Alex Battles =20 =20 There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. =20 Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum =20 ------ =20 **Big Game Books http://www.reenhead.com/biggame/biggame.html Big Game Books, which may or may not be the tiniest press in the world, operates out of Washington, D.C. It publishes small editions of handbound chapbooks and "tinysides," wee little six-page booklets featuring a range o= ' up-and-coming poets. =20 =20 *Overall Performer Bios* =20 **Alex Battles http://www.whiskyrebellion.com/ Alex Battles is a country singer and songwriter, and the leader of The Whiskey Rebellion, a country band based in Brooklyn. Originally from Chesterland, Ohio, Battles writes country songs by turns funny and bittersweet on his grandfather's tenor banjo. His influences are John Prine= , Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, Tom Waits, and Tom T. Hall. Battles has written a respectable 113 songs. He is also the founder and host of such events as the The Brooklyn Country Music Festival, The CasHank Hootenanny Jamboree, and The Johnny Cash Birthday Bash. He things funny thongs. =20 =20 **Sandra Beasley http://www.sandrabeasley.com Sandra Beasley won the 2007 New Issues Poetry Prize for her book Theories o= f Falling, selected by Marie Howe. Her poems have also been featured on Verse Daily; in magazines such as 32 Poems, New Orleans Review, and Blackbird; an= d in the 2005 Best New Poets. She lives in Washington, D.C., where she works on the editorial staff of The American Scholar =20 =20 **Shafer Hall http://shaferhall.blogspot.com/ Shafer Hall is happy to live in a world where for enough money he can have syndicated reruns of Coach on his television at almost any time of day. He has poems forthcoming from Lungfull, and his Never Cry Woof is available from No Tell Books. =20 =20 **Ada Lim=F3n http://www.adalimon.com Ada Lim=F3n is originally from Sonoma, Calif. A graduate of the creative writing program at New York University, she won the Chicago Literary Award for Poetry and has received fellowships from the Provincetown Fine Arts Wor= k Center and the New York Foundation for the Arts. She works as the Copy Director for GQ Magazine and is teaching a Master Class for Columbia University's MFA program in Spring 2008. Her first book, lucky wreck, was the winner of the 2005 Autumn House Poetry Prize. Her second book, This Big Fake World, was the winner of the 2005 Pearl Poetry Prize. =20 =20 **Logan Ryan Smith http://theredgummibear.blogspot.com/ Logan Ryan Smith lives in San Francisco where he publishes Transmission Press chapbooks. Up until recently he published a poetry mag called small town. In the summer of 2007 the San Francisco Bay Guardian recognized him for his publishing efforts in their "Best of the Bay 2007" issue. His first book, The Singers, was published by Dusie Press Books in the same summer. I= n the fall of '07 he released Stupid Birds--a collection of chapbooks and poems written between 2004 and 2006--under the Transmission Press imprint. Other poetry has appeared in New American Writing, Bombay Gin, Spell, strin= g of small machines, Hot Whiskey Magazine, the tiny, Mirage #4/ Period(ical), and elsewhere, as well as in the anthologies Bay Poetics (Faux Press), and The Meat Book (Hot Whiskey). A few online chapbooks can be found at detumescence.com and dusie.org. =20 ---- =20 Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues =20 Next event: Tues. Dec. 18, 2007 NYC Presses Day, with: Belladonna Books, Cuneiform Press, Cy Gist Press, Futurepoem Books, Kitchen Press, and Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs =20 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://www.welcometoboogcity.com T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 05:26:26 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: GALATEA RESURRECTS ANNOUNCEMENT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GALATEA RESURRECTS ANNOUNCEMENT Galatea Resurrects (A Poetry Engagement) is pleased to release its Eighth=20 Issue at _http://galatearesurrection8.blogspot.com_=20 (http://galatearesurrection8.blogspot.com/) with 64 new reviews/engagement= s! We are always looking for reviewers; next review deadline is March 5, 2008.= =20 For GR's submission and review copy information, please go to=20 _http://grarchives.blogspot.com_ (http://grarchives.blogspot.com/)=20 GR No. 8's Table of Contents is cutnpasted below for convenience., Enjoy! Eileen Tabios GR Editor & Animal Lover =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D GALATEA RESURRECTS (A POETRY ENGAGEMENT) November 30, 2007=20 EDITOR'S INTRODUCTION =20 By Eileen Tabios=20 NEW REVIEWS=20 Patrick James Dunagan reviews WRITING POETRY: FROM THE INSIDE OUT by Sanfor= d=20 Lyne=20 Sam Lohmann reviews =E2=80=9CBURNING INTERIORS=E2=80=9D: DAVID SHAPIRO=E2= =80=99S POETRY AND=20 POETICS, Edited by Thomas Fink and Joseph Lease=20 Patrick James Dunagan reviews RIPPLE EFFECT: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by=20 Elaine Equi=20 Sam Lohmann engages RIPPLE EFFECT: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Elaine Equi=20 Ernesto Priego reviews WORLD0 and NO SOUNDS OF MY OWN MAKING by John=20 Bloomberg-Rissman; UNPROTECTED TEXTS and STEPS: A NOTEBOOK by Tom Beckett;=20= and ESTE=20 BIENESTAR, TIBIO/THIS WELL-BEING, WARM, POEMS IN TRANSLATION by Argel Corpu= s=20 Barry Schwabsky reviews GLOIRE DES FORMES PRECEDE DE LE DOUBLE CORPS DES=20 IMAGES by Jean Fremon =20 Patrick Rosal reviews AMIGO WARFARE and ZERO GRAVITY, both by Eric Gamalind= a=20 Eileen Tabios engages AMIGO WARFARE and LYRICS FROM A DEAD LANGUAGE, both b= y=20 Eric Gamalinda=20 Thomas Fink reviews FRAGILE REPLACEMENTS by William Allegrezza=20 Pam Brown engages URBAN MYTHS: 210 POEMS by John Tranter=20 Rochelle Ratner engages HELEN IN EGYPT by H.D.; LOBA by Diane di Prima;=20 SURVIVAL: A THEMATIC GUIDE TO CANADIAN LITERATURE by Margaret Atwood; and T= HE=20 JOURNAL OF SUSANNA MOODIE by Margaret Atwood =20 Lars Palm reviews OPERA BUFA by Adam Fieled=20 Pam Brown engages BLUE GRASS by Peter Minter=20 Raymond John De Borja reviews ALL THE PAINTINGS OF THE GIORGIONE by=20 Elizabeth Willis=20 Eileen Tabios engages WANTON TEXTILES by Reb Livingston and Ravi Shankar=20 Ryan Daley reviews THE ECSTASY OF CAPITULATION by Daniel Borzutzky=20 Joe LeClerc reviews CANA QUEMADA [BURNT SUGAR] - CONTEMPORARY CUBAN POETRY=20 IN ENGLISH AND SPANISH, Edited by Lori Marie Carlson & Oscar Hijuelos=20 John Bloomberg-Rissman reviews A SPY IN THE HOUSE OF YEARS, CAPITAL and=20 ERRATUM TO A SPY IN THE HOUSE OF YEARS (LEVIATHAN PRESS, 2001), all by Gile= s=20 Goodland=20 Nicholas Manning reviews BLACK STONE by Dale Smith=20 Burt Kimmelman reviews PASSING OVER, POWERS: TRACKVOLUME 3, COLUMNS:=20 TRACKVOLUME 2, TRACK and RESTLESS MESSENGERS, all by Norman Finkelstein=20 Patrick James Dunagan reviews COMPLETE MINIMAL POEMS by Aram Saroyan=20 Lisa Bower reviews THE ARCHITECTURE OF LANGUAGE by Quincy Troupe=20 Jeff Harrison reviews DAYS POEM, VOLS. I and II by Allen Bramhall=20 Burt Kimmelman reviews FORTY-NINE GUARANTEED WAYS TO ESCAPE DEATH by Sandy=20 McIntosh=20 Eileen Tabios engages HUMAN SCALE by Michael Kelleher=20 Pam Brown engages VOODOO REALITIES by Philip Hammial =20 Laurel Johnson reviews PASSING OVER by Norman Finkelstein=20 Pamela Hart reviews THREADS by Jill Magi=20 Lars Palm reviews DOCUMENT by Ana Bozicevic-Bowling=20 Nicholas Manning reviews OBSTRUCTS/CONSTITUTES by John Crouse=20 Eric Hoffman reviews N/O by Ron Silliman=20 William Allegrezza reviews GUESTS OF SPACE by Anselm Hollo=20 Larissa Shmailo reviews E-X-C-H-A-N-G-E V-A-L-U-E-S: THE FIRST XI=20 INTERVIEWS, Curated by Tom Beckett=20 Eileen Tabios engages PUBLIC ACCESS #1, Edited by Nicholas Grider=20 Kristin Berkey-Abbott reviews PIONEERS IN THE STUDY OF MOTION by Susan=20 Briante=20 Mark Young reviews EL TSUNAMI by Kevin Opstedal =20 Aileen Ibardaloza engages =E2=80=9CLAKBAY-KAMAY=E2=80=9D, a poem by Father A= lbert Alejo; =20 "PSALM 120" in BOOK OF PSALMS, THE NELSON STUDY BIBLE; =E2=80=9COUT BEYOND I= DEAS=E2=80=9D by =20 Jelludin Rumi in THE ESSENTIAL RUMI, Translated by Coleman Barks; and OUT=20 BEYOND IDEAS, a CD by David Wilcox and Nance Pettit=20 Kristina Marie Darling reviews INBOX by Noah Eli Gordon=20 John Bloomberg-Rissman reviews NOVEL PICTORIAL NOISE by Noah Eli Gordon=20 Kristin Berkey-Abbott reviews THE HAPPINESS EXPERIMENT by Lisa Fishman=20 Paul Klinger reviews LETTERS TO EARLY STREET by Albert Flynn DeSilver=20 Eileen Tabios engages FREE by Amanda Laughtland=20 Ivy Alvarez reviews MOONSHINE by MML Bliss =20 Beatriz Tabios reviews THE BOOK OF THE ROTTEN DAUGHTER by Alice Friman =20 Eileen Tabios engages BELOVED INTEGER by Michelle Naka Pierce =20 THE CRITIC WRITES POEMS=20 Two Poems by Patrick James Dunagan: "Dear Elaine," and "A Sloop in the Hear= t=20 of Things" =20 FEATURE ARTICLE=20 =E2=80=9CThe Poetry of Put-On=E2=80=9D (Addressing Bill Knott, Andrei Codre= scu, Armand=20 Schwerner, Jack Spicer, Among Others) by Rochelle Ratner=20 FROM OFFLINE TO ONLINE: REPRINTED REVIEWS=20 Murat Nemet-Nejat reviews SUDDEN ADDRESS, SELECTED LECTURES 1981-2006 by=20 Bill Berkson =20 Scott Glassman reviews SIGHT PROGRESS by Zhang Er, Translated by Rachel =20 Levitsky with the author=20 Judith Roitman reviews INVERSE and THE BOOK OF OCEAN, both by Maryrose=20 Larkin=20 ADVERTISEMENT=20 Meritage Press Tiny Books Releases Fifth Title for Poetry to Keep Feeding=20 the World! =20 BACK COVER The Bad Bad Metaphor! **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest= =20 products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=3Daoltop00030000000001) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 06:43:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: thoughts on thanksgiving following CAConrad and others In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steve-thanks for reminding me of the Macy's Day Parade--I haven't lived in NYC for a while (too long-- they DID go bankrupt, didn't they?--and right now I live across from a pueblo in New Mexico and living among Native Americans well...this is an issue...David Chirot's comments below are very true esp. in re: need to be conscious on a daily basis. But a holiday is "symbolic" and I find it unbearable that so many turkeys are being slaughter so Americans can feed their faces-- what I'm saying is: although there IS so much each individual can do to try and bring some justice to this horrifying planet of ours, I do believe it is important for us to stop mindlessly "celebrating" things without thought. What should we be thankful for this year, America? Well, I plan to fast... bobbi lurie Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:42:26 -0500 From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! i'm with you c.a. we're celebratin what? the macy's day parade? how a bankrupt dept. store survived and put on this big balloon thing every year for millions of bucks? home reposseion? the iraqui vets i saw on cnn all blow to bits who don't get enough v.a. funds? or their husd=bands and wives now headed for iraq? or iran's terrorist army or their W. O.D.'s ? 24$ and some beads?? ah well turkeys were indians? so was corn etc? Indians? hey aren't they from india ??? pass the cranberry sauce.... i'll have a drum stick please. On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:45:29 -0500 CA Conrad writes: > Maybe you didn't notice that I was referring to the adults? It was > the adults I blamed, not the children. In fact I made a point of > saying the children know no better. > > What children do and say frightens me BECAUSE it's what the adults > they mimic do and say. Get it? > > We're at war and nearly a million Iraqis are dead. Thanksgiving > makes > me sick at this point. Literally sick! > > As far as being told I'm exaggerating genocide, no. No I'm not. > It's > on historical record that the Puritans were not at all interested > in > sharing space, resources, or much else with Native Americans. > Roger > Williams made it clear that he and his fellow Puritans should at > the > very least PAY the Native Americans for the land being settled, and > it > was this reason as much as any other reason Williams was sent into > exile. He dared look upon the Native Americans as equals, and was > banished. He then founded Providence, Rhode Island. But no, it's > no > exaggeration at all to link the original white settlers with > genocide. > > Many people like to entertain the notion that the Indian Wars were > post Civil War, when in fact the original white settlers starved > entire Native American communities out of their homes and off their > land. The very same white settlers the Native Americans rescued > when > first arriving. That's no exaggeration either to say "rescued," > because if it were not for the Native Americans sharing food and > resources The Mayflower would be unknown to us today. > > And not only that but our first president himself declared war on > the > Iroquois. Washington became known as "Village Destroyer." The > slaughter he unleashed continued for a hundred more years, up to > the > massacre at Wounded Knee. The photographs of that mass grave of > Lakota men, women and children should make anyone sick to their > stomachs. The US 7th Cavalry standing at the edge of the grave > with > their rifles, posing above the twisted and bloody limbs, it's > incredible! And THAT photograph should be in every single high > school > history book! > > If the Native Americans who rescued the settlers from the Mayflower > had any idea what was to come, the evil, wicked, wanton destruction > and murder, would they have fed these people? I like to think they > would have let them starve. > > What I'm proposing is a Thanksgiving Day of giving thanks by saying > NO! > > And being a vegetarian for 20 years (January 1st 2008 it will be 20 > years) I also point out that the lives of turkeys are also very > much > on my mind. Having grown up in rural America I've known turkeys > both > domesticated and wild, and love the birds. They are amazing > creatures > with fascinating lives. The care of a mother turkey, the ritual of > a > Tom defending his turf, and a million nuances outside the obvious, > make me wonder how many people stuffing their faces with the flesh > of > these birds ever care to know how they live. > > I've always admired the Abbie Hoffman quote, "I believe in > compulsory > cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed, there > would be no more wars." > > Anyone else interested in SAYING FUCK NO TO THANKSGIVING DAY, go to > HTTP://THANKSGIVINGDAYFAST.BLOGSPOT.COM > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:02:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: Spaltung #2 now out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The second issue of the APG's poetry magazine, Spaltung, is finally assembled! The magazine is in the form of a envelope containing various unattached items including a cover by Niko Vassilakis; writings by Derek Beaulieu, Christophe Casamassima, Rachel Daley, Audacia Dangereyes, Bill Friend, Jeff Harrison, Halvard Johnson, Josh May, Mark Prejsnar, ek rzepka and Hugh Tribbey; vizpo chaplets by Repugno, vizpo objects by Allison Rentz; and a CD-ROM holding a reading of Koulongo proverbs by Ouattara Yaoua Anziata & Rebecca Ashley, sound poetry by David Braden, Brian Howe and the APG, and a movie by Sandy Baldwin. Yep, it's a multimedia extravaganza. For a copy send $5 in cash or equivalent in chattel to Spaltung, 1511 McLendon Ave., Atlanta GA 30307. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:44:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: Memory of a Walk In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Beautiful Alan, Joycean and evocative, and I can visualize the entire walk. - Peter http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ On Nov 20, 2007 11:08 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > Memory of a Walk > > > I walked last Wednesday from the MCM building at Brown University to the > train station downtown. I took the 6:16 to New York. It arrived around > 9:50 at Penn Station. On the way I remembered the walk. I followed myself > step by step, reconstructing as I went along. This was six days ago. Now > again I remember. > > What did you think you were doing? > > Memory and reconstruction worries me. I wanted to follow myself. I didn't > think of this at the time, that is the time of the walk itself, but only > later. I conductor asked if I were a philosopher; I think I appeared deep > in thought. I wanted to remember as much as possible. Later, several times > in the past six days, I thought I would try and remember again, try to > write everything down. But I thought this would take too much effort; it > wasn't until now, Tuesday, that I've had the energy to proceed. > > What did you take with you? > > I'm clearing my belongings out of Leslie Thornton's office. This trip I > took, in addition to what I brought up, a Cambodian bowed instrument, a > pair of slippers, some extra toiletries, a white towel. The towel and a > plastic bag were wrapped around the instrument and inserted into a cloth > bag. It was damp out. I added a polka-dotted umbrella as well, in case I > needed it. > > Where did you go? > > I went down the stairs and out the front door. Susan and Ellen were in the > office talking. I didn't say anything to them. I walked out the door and > turned right. > > What did you do then? > > I walked to the corner. I thought about going straight down as usual, but > instead crossed the street. I began walking up a slight hill to the Brown > Quadrangle. I passed two people as I turned into the Quadrangle. I took a > diagonal left, which would leave me out between two libraries. > > Wait, I remember crossing the first intersection. I think there was little > or no traffic. > > Then? > > Then I walked diagonally through the cold mist, almost but not quite a > rain. I went through the gates to the top of the street. I didn't notice > the sculpture on the left; usually I look at it. I crossed the street. I > was surprised there was no traffic. I thought that usually there was > traffic. I began the descent of the hill. I passed the location of the old > Brown Music Department, where I had played several times; I thought about > that. I didn't think about the arts building that replaced it. I went > straight down the hill. I arrived at Benefit Street. > > At Benefit Street you had several choices. What did you decide here? > > I crossed Benefit street; I believe there was some traffic, but I'm not > sure. I continued going down the hill. I passed a corner building and > looked in a window. I wondered whether the window was where my studio at > Rhode Island School of Design used to be. I thought again about the > accusation I had stolen equipment and wondered how S. could possibly think > that since I had no place to take it but the school itself. I looked in > other windows on the way down; they were studios. I think they might have > been drawing studios; I'm not sure. I reached the bottom of the hill. > > Now you're into the city itself, or at least the outskirts of the city, by > Providence River. What did you do? > > I crossed the intersection here. This one I remember being easy. I arrived > at the bank of the river, the bank nearest the hill. I thought that the > time before I had crossed and taken the other bank. I found that the river > split, and that I was thrown off-course, that I ended up guiding myself by > the Statehouse dome. This time I felt tired, and stayed on the nearer > bank. I looked into the water as I walked towards the train station; I > couldn't see anything. I reached the next corner. > > Then there was traffic? > > There was a lot of traffic. I ran across the street; I was almost hit. I > continued on the other side. > > Did you press the button for the traffic signal? > > I remember a button, but it might have been farther on. I didn't press it, > I think. Perhaps I did. > > And then? > > Then I continued walking. I think it was either this block or the next, > possibly the end of this block, still by the river, that I heard foot- > steps. Or possibly saw someone ahead of me. But I think it began with the > footsteps. At the next intersection. > > We're then at another heavily trafficked one? > > Yes, the footsteps belonged to a woman, I think possibly a student, carry- > ing a backpack or small suitcase of some sort. I didn't see her full-on; I > couldn't identify her, but thought she might be blond. > > What happened? > > She had crossed the street and I crossed as well, somewhat behind her. > This was the second time I was almost hit; I wanted to make the light, > since the signals were long. > > And then? > > The road curved up ahead. Wait, there was a four-way stop intersection. > She continued up the curve on the left. I walked part of the way across > the bridge, crossing the Providence River. I stopped and looked down in > the water. I was looking for the herring or shad family fish I had seen > there before, in large schools. It was dark out; I looked for ripples in > the water. The week before I was guided by ripples. This time there were > none. I couldn't remember the name of the fish, something like mulhagen; I > still can't remember. I was frustrated, worried that I couldn't remember. > > After looking in the water for a while? > > I crossed the street. There was hardly any traffic. I looked up ahead to > see if the student was heading to the train station. I thought I saw her; > I couldn't be sure. I stopped on the other side of the street, which was > the other side of the bridge. I looked again down at the black water; I > was looking for the fish on the other side. Most of the time I had seen > them on this, the other side. This time again there was nothing, no > ripples, at least none visible. But wait. > > Wait? > > On the first, left-hand side of the bridge, I saw a leaf in the water; it > was large, and looked like one of the fish on its side; I wondered if it > was in fact one that was dying. When I looked on the other, right-hand > side of the bridge, I saw several more, and it was clear that they were > leaves, slowly going down the river. > > Which way were they going? > > I'm not sure; the river flowed slowly, but I believe from the right-hand > side to the left-hand side and beyond. > > And then? > > Then I began walking up the hill towards the train station. I had again to > go out into the street because the sidewalk was partly closed due to > construction. I walked past a number of parked cars on the right, in this > fashion. I noticed the construction was coming along, and remembered > hearing that apartments were to be built here. As I walked up the hill I > walked over a recently-asphalted entrance to the construction site, or > near the entrance. I wondered why the asphalt had been poured; it could > only be temporary and didn't seem to serve any purpose. I continued up the > sidewalk. > > Did you see any birds? > > No, often in the daytime, particularly in the spring, I had seen birds > around the site and in the trees directly to the left of the train > station. But this time there was nothing. I looked down into the huge > excavation beyond the immediate construction and noticed for the second > time, the train platform, I think it was the platform for the number 1 and > 2 tracks, jutting out into it. The platform looked oddly spacious and > beautiful in the dark. I continued walking past the trees. > > This was near the taxicab stand? > > This went directly past the taxi stand. I saw a number of drivers standing > around; they were speaking a language I didn't understand. At first I > thought, this might be Pakistani, but then I thought Italian; I couldn't > hear well enough. The drivers all seemed to know one another. I wondered > what would happen if a new driver came along, who didn't speak the > language - would he or she be accepted in the group? Would the group, on > occasion, speak English to him or her? Would the driver be ignored? This > went on only for an instant. I reached the station doors and went in. > > Just went in? > > I remember looking at my cellphone on the way, at least twice, checking on > the time. I was early as usual; I think I arrived at 5:34, for the 6:16, > but I'm not sure. I was hungry. > > How long did the walk take? > > I think it took about twenty-one minutes, but I couldn't be sure. If I had > gone directly, it would have taken between seventeen and eighteen. > > You were hungry? Were you hungry the whole time? > > I was hungry the whole time; I had only breakfast at Louie's, a #1 with > orange juice extra, I think, beforehand. I was going to drink some Red > Bull to keep me going through the day, but had a large coffee with skim > milk instead; the Red Bull is still in the office. > > So what did you do? > > I went to the small cafe inside the train station. The man who served me > wasn't there; the woman was. I had often wondered about their relation- > ship; they seemed tight. I ordered, I think, something with apricot; I'm > not sure. I do remember eating it without getting sticky; I didn't have to > wash my hands afterwards. > > And this whole time you were carrying both your camera bag with various > things you had brought with you, as well as the cloth bag contraption with > the Cambodian instrument and other things? > > Yes. I believe I also took back a copy of The Structure of Reality with me > on this trip. I had a copy of Claire's demo DVD, since I'm writing a > recommendation for her. I remember I didn't change clothes; the clean ones > were still in the bag. I had some trail mix left over from the ride up. I > didn't want to order anything on the train. > > And you were reading? > > Yes, I had books with me, but I'm not sure I remember them. I definitely > had Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey, which I had read; now I wanted to > finish Sanditon which was in the same Penguin volume, which of course I > did. And I had a copy of David Hume's Enquiry with me as well; I had been > reading about miracles. But I think there might have been a third book. > The week before I had carried a relatively medieval history of the tantric > schools of Tibet, but I don't think I had it with me this time. > > What else were you carrying? > > Other than the usual identifications, I had a small Olympus solid-state > recorder for notes. I didn't use it - I had been hoping to. The camera bag > was somewhat heavy of course. Another item - a small power supply for the > phone. > > Do you remember going down the stairs from the office? > > Not very well. I do remember having to negotiate the stairs because of the > awkwardness of the instrument package. Once outside, things were easy. I > had been afraid of rain; the skies were threatening all day. But as I > said, there was none, or rather just a light misting, slightly, nothing > more. > > Money? > > I had taken sixty dollars with me, but had spent very little. I spent > nothing on the train on the way up, so I had all of that. I spent little > there, and little on the train. I had walked down to Wickenden or > Wickendon street to go to an antique shop; I was hoping to find some > useful books, but nothing seemed promising. So I had most of the money > with me of course. I also had four rolls of unused Tri-X and Plus-X (the > new Plus-X) 16mm movie film to shoot in the winter and spring. And on the > way up I had brought a mini-DV tape for transferring the second roll I had > shot, but the roll wasn't back and the tape stayed in the office. > > Anything else? > > Some recommendation forms from Claire; I had to fill these out. I was > afraid they would get bent. I put them between the pages of something else > I was carrying back - I don't remember, a pamphlet of some sort. > > Were you tired when you walked down to the train station? > > I was extremely tired; I had hardly slept the night before - I coughed a > lot, there were sounds around, etc. I should add I sleep in the office to > save money; there's a futon. So I was glad that the air was bracing. I > went down to the train platform itself - #1 as usual - at 6:04 - I > remember looking at the clock - because it was open to the air and would > wake me up. I walked down; I haven't taken the elevator for a long time. I > noticed that the construction inside the station was down for the first > time - there were new escalators installed, but the one for track #1 only > went up. > > Anything else? > > Only that I remembered, as I approached the station, that I would be too > tired, and it would be too late, to go to the Border's bookshop in the > nearby mall. When I went into the station, I wouldn't come out again, at > least until the train I boarded left, which it did, two minutes late. > -- NEW RELEASE UNCOMMON VISION - The Art of Peter Ciccariello http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ 66 pp. 42 color plates. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:54:37 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: poetry and the foreign service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest publicat= ion from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of the book's conte= nt comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat for the Greek government-= in-exile during the occupation. This got me thinking about how many moderni= st poets worked in the foreign service at one level or another--St. John Pe= rse, Octavio Paz, and Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. My question, = for the scholars out there: does there exist any significant study of moder= nist poetry and the foreign service? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:13:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: ballet's wet Pirouette grande (dance-film) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ballet's wet Pirouette grande (dance-film) Arabesque foot penchee down up goes goes the the head foot what down a head penchee what up a goes balance, the straight the line floor, slammed what to a floor, hinge wanton straight hinge line allongee to high, higher, higher, pole-hole pole-hole spectacular, spectacular, nothing nothing hidden, hidden, wanton thrown foot thing, thrown, Throw, spun thrown, around, spun secret around, archaic secret vision, archaic bared vision, returned bared thing, returned Throw, Sur up, les higher, pointes useless lift running, it get up, away, useless hinge running, Sur get les away, pointes every lift bone sorry hurts monsieur i Grand am plie so partners sorry ready monsieur for Grand your plie bone partners hurts ready i for am your so pleasure, fingertips, fingertips, fear never Lift, fear caressed Lift, partner caressed lifting partner sex lifting pleasure, sex wanton armed smells, one wanton, or she another, looks looks, the smells, hard wanton, thing she over looks armed hard or thing another, over looks, distance, damp, body slid, hinged, flesh damp, fingered, slid, wanton, flesh well fingered, or well distance, tunnel, hinged, nub your mausoleum hands seconde, knees, on look hands blessed and of knees, nub look mausoleum blessed seconde, of on world you have Blessure you extension Blessure tripped extension privilege tripped Attitude privilege grecque, Attitude the grecque, world void to abyss, be spartan, sure, here would be brought sure, the they void would abyss, brought nothing house don't battement, with don't that catch leg anything of with yours, that house leg down yours, battement, scented, En drift and En where travesti, one where scented, discovers the holes hinged poles soles holes roles. hinged ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:28:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Memory of a Walk In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It would be interesting to know what the name of the Cambodian instrument was. I saw classical Cambodian dance once. It was very beautiful but I don't remember the names of any of the instruments used. Also, as far as I know, there is no language spoken in Pakistan or anywhere else called "Pakistani." Like,in India, several languages are spoken in Pakistan. But, it having been thirty seven years since I spent a short time in that country, I don't remember what they are. Urdu, perhaps? I like the intention behind this piece, though. My epxerience has been, though, that I have to write this stuff while it is happening for it to really work. Who is the you who is asking the questions, suddenly? Anyway, thank you for an interesting piece. Regards, Tom Savage Alan Sondheim wrote: Memory of a Walk I walked last Wednesday from the MCM building at Brown University to the train station downtown. I took the 6:16 to New York. It arrived around 9:50 at Penn Station. On the way I remembered the walk. I followed myself step by step, reconstructing as I went along. This was six days ago. Now again I remember. What did you think you were doing? Memory and reconstruction worries me. I wanted to follow myself. I didn't think of this at the time, that is the time of the walk itself, but only later. I conductor asked if I were a philosopher; I think I appeared deep in thought. I wanted to remember as much as possible. Later, several times in the past six days, I thought I would try and remember again, try to write everything down. But I thought this would take too much effort; it wasn't until now, Tuesday, that I've had the energy to proceed. What did you take with you? I'm clearing my belongings out of Leslie Thornton's office. This trip I took, in addition to what I brought up, a Cambodian bowed instrument, a pair of slippers, some extra toiletries, a white towel. The towel and a plastic bag were wrapped around the instrument and inserted into a cloth bag. It was damp out. I added a polka-dotted umbrella as well, in case I needed it. Where did you go? I went down the stairs and out the front door. Susan and Ellen were in the office talking. I didn't say anything to them. I walked out the door and turned right. What did you do then? I walked to the corner. I thought about going straight down as usual, but instead crossed the street. I began walking up a slight hill to the Brown Quadrangle. I passed two people as I turned into the Quadrangle. I took a diagonal left, which would leave me out between two libraries. Wait, I remember crossing the first intersection. I think there was little or no traffic. Then? Then I walked diagonally through the cold mist, almost but not quite a rain. I went through the gates to the top of the street. I didn't notice the sculpture on the left; usually I look at it. I crossed the street. I was surprised there was no traffic. I thought that usually there was traffic. I began the descent of the hill. I passed the location of the old Brown Music Department, where I had played several times; I thought about that. I didn't think about the arts building that replaced it. I went straight down the hill. I arrived at Benefit Street. At Benefit Street you had several choices. What did you decide here? I crossed Benefit street; I believe there was some traffic, but I'm not sure. I continued going down the hill. I passed a corner building and looked in a window. I wondered whether the window was where my studio at Rhode Island School of Design used to be. I thought again about the accusation I had stolen equipment and wondered how S. could possibly think that since I had no place to take it but the school itself. I looked in other windows on the way down; they were studios. I think they might have been drawing studios; I'm not sure. I reached the bottom of the hill. Now you're into the city itself, or at least the outskirts of the city, by Providence River. What did you do? I crossed the intersection here. This one I remember being easy. I arrived at the bank of the river, the bank nearest the hill. I thought that the time before I had crossed and taken the other bank. I found that the river split, and that I was thrown off-course, that I ended up guiding myself by the Statehouse dome. This time I felt tired, and stayed on the nearer bank. I looked into the water as I walked towards the train station; I couldn't see anything. I reached the next corner. Then there was traffic? There was a lot of traffic. I ran across the street; I was almost hit. I continued on the other side. Did you press the button for the traffic signal? I remember a button, but it might have been farther on. I didn't press it, I think. Perhaps I did. And then? Then I continued walking. I think it was either this block or the next, possibly the end of this block, still by the river, that I heard foot- steps. Or possibly saw someone ahead of me. But I think it began with the footsteps. At the next intersection. We're then at another heavily trafficked one? Yes, the footsteps belonged to a woman, I think possibly a student, carry- ing a backpack or small suitcase of some sort. I didn't see her full-on; I couldn't identify her, but thought she might be blond. What happened? She had crossed the street and I crossed as well, somewhat behind her. This was the second time I was almost hit; I wanted to make the light, since the signals were long. And then? The road curved up ahead. Wait, there was a four-way stop intersection. She continued up the curve on the left. I walked part of the way across the bridge, crossing the Providence River. I stopped and looked down in the water. I was looking for the herring or shad family fish I had seen there before, in large schools. It was dark out; I looked for ripples in the water. The week before I was guided by ripples. This time there were none. I couldn't remember the name of the fish, something like mulhagen; I still can't remember. I was frustrated, worried that I couldn't remember. After looking in the water for a while? I crossed the street. There was hardly any traffic. I looked up ahead to see if the student was heading to the train station. I thought I saw her; I couldn't be sure. I stopped on the other side of the street, which was the other side of the bridge. I looked again down at the black water; I was looking for the fish on the other side. Most of the time I had seen them on this, the other side. This time again there was nothing, no ripples, at least none visible. But wait. Wait? On the first, left-hand side of the bridge, I saw a leaf in the water; it was large, and looked like one of the fish on its side; I wondered if it was in fact one that was dying. When I looked on the other, right-hand side of the bridge, I saw several more, and it was clear that they were leaves, slowly going down the river. Which way were they going? I'm not sure; the river flowed slowly, but I believe from the right-hand side to the left-hand side and beyond. And then? Then I began walking up the hill towards the train station. I had again to go out into the street because the sidewalk was partly closed due to construction. I walked past a number of parked cars on the right, in this fashion. I noticed the construction was coming along, and remembered hearing that apartments were to be built here. As I walked up the hill I walked over a recently-asphalted entrance to the construction site, or near the entrance. I wondered why the asphalt had been poured; it could only be temporary and didn't seem to serve any purpose. I continued up the sidewalk. Did you see any birds? No, often in the daytime, particularly in the spring, I had seen birds around the site and in the trees directly to the left of the train station. But this time there was nothing. I looked down into the huge excavation beyond the immediate construction and noticed for the second time, the train platform, I think it was the platform for the number 1 and 2 tracks, jutting out into it. The platform looked oddly spacious and beautiful in the dark. I continued walking past the trees. This was near the taxicab stand? This went directly past the taxi stand. I saw a number of drivers standing around; they were speaking a language I didn't understand. At first I thought, this might be Pakistani, but then I thought Italian; I couldn't hear well enough. The drivers all seemed to know one another. I wondered what would happen if a new driver came along, who didn't speak the language - would he or she be accepted in the group? Would the group, on occasion, speak English to him or her? Would the driver be ignored? This went on only for an instant. I reached the station doors and went in. Just went in? I remember looking at my cellphone on the way, at least twice, checking on the time. I was early as usual; I think I arrived at 5:34, for the 6:16, but I'm not sure. I was hungry. How long did the walk take? I think it took about twenty-one minutes, but I couldn't be sure. If I had gone directly, it would have taken between seventeen and eighteen. You were hungry? Were you hungry the whole time? I was hungry the whole time; I had only breakfast at Louie's, a #1 with orange juice extra, I think, beforehand. I was going to drink some Red Bull to keep me going through the day, but had a large coffee with skim milk instead; the Red Bull is still in the office. So what did you do? I went to the small cafe inside the train station. The man who served me wasn't there; the woman was. I had often wondered about their relation- ship; they seemed tight. I ordered, I think, something with apricot; I'm not sure. I do remember eating it without getting sticky; I didn't have to wash my hands afterwards. And this whole time you were carrying both your camera bag with various things you had brought with you, as well as the cloth bag contraption with the Cambodian instrument and other things? Yes. I believe I also took back a copy of The Structure of Reality with me on this trip. I had a copy of Claire's demo DVD, since I'm writing a recommendation for her. I remember I didn't change clothes; the clean ones were still in the bag. I had some trail mix left over from the ride up. I didn't want to order anything on the train. And you were reading? Yes, I had books with me, but I'm not sure I remember them. I definitely had Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey, which I had read; now I wanted to finish Sanditon which was in the same Penguin volume, which of course I did. And I had a copy of David Hume's Enquiry with me as well; I had been reading about miracles. But I think there might have been a third book. The week before I had carried a relatively medieval history of the tantric schools of Tibet, but I don't think I had it with me this time. What else were you carrying? Other than the usual identifications, I had a small Olympus solid-state recorder for notes. I didn't use it - I had been hoping to. The camera bag was somewhat heavy of course. Another item - a small power supply for the phone. Do you remember going down the stairs from the office? Not very well. I do remember having to negotiate the stairs because of the awkwardness of the instrument package. Once outside, things were easy. I had been afraid of rain; the skies were threatening all day. But as I said, there was none, or rather just a light misting, slightly, nothing more. Money? I had taken sixty dollars with me, but had spent very little. I spent nothing on the train on the way up, so I had all of that. I spent little there, and little on the train. I had walked down to Wickenden or Wickendon street to go to an antique shop; I was hoping to find some useful books, but nothing seemed promising. So I had most of the money with me of course. I also had four rolls of unused Tri-X and Plus-X (the new Plus-X) 16mm movie film to shoot in the winter and spring. And on the way up I had brought a mini-DV tape for transferring the second roll I had shot, but the roll wasn't back and the tape stayed in the office. Anything else? Some recommendation forms from Claire; I had to fill these out. I was afraid they would get bent. I put them between the pages of something else I was carrying back - I don't remember, a pamphlet of some sort. Were you tired when you walked down to the train station? I was extremely tired; I had hardly slept the night before - I coughed a lot, there were sounds around, etc. I should add I sleep in the office to save money; there's a futon. So I was glad that the air was bracing. I went down to the train platform itself - #1 as usual - at 6:04 - I remember looking at the clock - because it was open to the air and would wake me up. I walked down; I haven't taken the elevator for a long time. I noticed that the construction inside the station was down for the first time - there were new escalators installed, but the one for track #1 only went up. Anything else? Only that I remembered, as I approached the station, that I would be too tired, and it would be too late, to go to the Border's bookshop in the nearby mall. When I went into the station, I wouldn't come out again, at least until the train I boarded left, which it did, two minutes late. --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:41:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: or LET'S PLAY genocide!//Help fight Hunger in your neighborhood & caused by US policies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm literally running out the door to my stupid job, wish I had more time to write more. But David, did you not read my petition? Helping others in need is exactly what I ask for. Is it possible you actually DID read the petition and missed that part? How is it possible? It's pretty clear that helping others is a very big component to the fast. Here's read it again: http://www.petitiononline.com/FastIr/petition.html Is it possible no one else saw that mentioned? How weird, CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: <803740.39719.qm@web86006.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In Latin America, and to a lesser extent in Europe (and once-upon-a-time in the US--remember Hawthorne in London?), foreign service jobs (at sub-ambassadorial levels) have been a traditional form of government support for writers. Very few of them have had training in related fields, and sually there is little work involved. The impact on the writers seems to be what one would expect from a subsidized stay in a foreign country, rather than an immersion in bureaucracy. Neruda wrote his Residencia en la tierra and Canto general while posted to various countries. Not many traces of the jobs that paid his way. Off the top of my head, I can think of several Cuban poets who post-revolution have served overseas: Fayad Jamis, Eliseo Diego, Heberto Padilla, Miguel Barnet. Barnet's jobs have been serious, the others less so. Romain Gary served the French government similarly. Sometimes diplomatic appointments have been used by friends in government to protect writers from the fires at home. Certainly true of Jamis and Diego. Mark At 10:54 AM 11/21/2007, you wrote: >I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest >publication from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of >the book's content comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat >for the Greek government-in-exile during the occupation. This got me >thinking about how many modernist poets worked in the foreign >service at one level or another--St. John Perse, Octavio Paz, and >Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. My question, for the >scholars out there: does there exist any significant study of >modernist poetry and the foreign service? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:11:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Memory of a Walk In-Reply-To: <947048.72905.qm@web31114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Urdu, a language of arabic descent, is the most widely spoken language in Pakistan although, as you rightly said, many other languages exist. Urdu is also spoken in large parts of India. Faiz Ahmed Faiz, is a celebrated Urdu poet in Pakistan. BTW, Alan's piece is splendid, I thought. Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Thomas savage Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 11:29 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Memory of a Walk It would be interesting to know what the name of the Cambodian instrument was. I saw classical Cambodian dance once. It was very beautiful but I don't remember the names of any of the instruments used. Also, as far as I know, there is no language spoken in Pakistan or anywhere else called "Pakistani." Like,in India, several languages are spoken in Pakistan. But, it having been thirty seven years since I spent a short time in that country, I don't remember what they are. Urdu, perhaps? I like the intention behind this piece, though. My epxerience has been, though, that I have to write this stuff while it is happening for it to really work. Who is the you who is asking the questions, suddenly? Anyway, thank you for an interesting piece. Regards, Tom Savage ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:58:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting. But in the cases I mentioned, the poets were working in the di= plomatic corps as their profession--Bunting for a much shorter part of his = life, I believe, than the others. Seferis seems to have experienced it, at = least in the period covered by this book, as a great conflict: "I exercise = the profession of human being and the profession of public servant. Things = dramatically irreconcilable at times, and sometimes a great weight--and the= n suddenly, in the blink of an eye, you see yurselff without any profession= --you see that the one profession cancels out the other.""=0A=0A=0A----- Or= iginal Message ----=0AFrom: Mark Weiss =0ATo: POETI= CS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, 21 November, 2007 4:59:26 PM=0AS= ubject: Re: poetry and the foreign service=0A=0AIn Latin America, and to a = lesser extent in Europe (and =0Aonce-upon-a-time in the US--remember Hawtho= rne in London?), foreign =0Aservice jobs (at sub-ambassadorial levels) have= been a traditional =0Aform of government support for writers. Very few of = them have had =0Atraining in related fields, and sually there is little wor= k involved. =0AThe impact on the writers seems to be what one would expect = from a =0Asubsidized stay in a foreign country, rather than an immersion in= =0Abureaucracy. Neruda wrote his Residencia en la tierra and Canto =0Agene= ral while posted to various countries. Not many traces of the =0Ajobs that = paid his way.=0A=0AOff the top of my head, I can think of several Cuban poe= ts who =0Apost-revolution have served overseas: Fayad Jamis, Eliseo Diego, = =0AHeberto Padilla, Miguel Barnet. Barnet's jobs have been serious, the =0A= others less so. Romain Gary served the French government similarly.=0A=0ASo= metimes diplomatic appointments have been used by friends in =0Agovernment = to protect writers from the fires at home. Certainly true =0Aof Jamis and D= iego.=0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0AAt 10:54 AM 11/21/2007, you wrote:=0A>I have been r= eading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest =0A>publication from = the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of =0A>the book's content co= mes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat =0A>for the Greek government-i= n-exile during the occupation. This got me =0A>thinking about how many mode= rnist poets worked in the foreign =0A>service at one level or another--St. = John Perse, Octavio Paz, and =0A>Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. My= question, for the =0A>scholars out there: does there exist any significant= study of =0A>modernist poetry and the foreign service? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:32:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: [WDL] INTIMACY on 7-9 DEC. (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/Mixed; BOUNDARY="0-561678529-1195695105=:3974" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-561678529-1195695105=:3974 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=X-UNKNOWN; FORMAT=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:54:17 +0000 From: "Maria Chatzichristodoulou [aka maria x]" Reply-To: WRITING-AND-THE-DIGITAL-LIFE@JISCMAIL.AC.UK To: WRITING-AND-THE-DIGITAL-LIFE@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: [WDL] INTIMACY on 7-9 DEC. INTIMACY Across Visceral and Digital Performance www.intimateperformance.org Goldsmiths | Laban | The Albany | Home | Online 7, 8 & 9 December *THREE DAYS OF PERFORMANCES, WORKSHOPS, SEMINARS, SHOW & TELL PRESENTATIONS, HAPPENINGS and a 1-DAY SYMPOSIUM * *LOADS OF FREE EVENTS* ** *LAUNCH: FRIDAY 7 DEC., 6:30-11PM @ GOLDSMITHS * INTIMACY is a three-day digital and live art programme made to elicit connectivity, induce interaction and provoke debate between cutting edge artists, performers, leading scholars, respected researchers, creative thinkers and local communities. A culturally urgent series of events, INTIMACY is designed to address a diverse set of responses to the notion of 'being intimate' in contemporary performance and as such, in life. INTIMACY invites scholars, researchers, artists and audiences to enable the interrogation and creative exploration of formal, aesthetic and affective modes of *performing intimacy now*. *Please note:* Knowledge East is offering 2 BURSARIES worth 500 GBP each, for student workshop participants who will submit a successful application for an enterprise project inspired by any of the 4 INTIMACY workshops. Grab the chance! INTIMACY features: FRIDAY 7 DEC: *One-to-one performances* with Adrian Howells and Helena Goldwater @ Home (Booking Required | Limited Capacity) http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/programme.php#friday *Workshops* with Prof. Johannes Birringer and Kira O'Reilly @ Laban, Godsmiths campus (Ticketed | Book Now, Limited Capacity) http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/workshops.php *Seminars* with Mine Kaylan and Tracey Warr @ Goldsmiths (Ticketed | Book Now, Limited Capacity) http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/seminars.php *Launch* with Live *Performances & Gigs* @ Goldsmiths from 6:30pm. FREE, come along! Featuring: SUKA OFF, Blind Ditch, Atau Tanaka, Ernesto Sarezale, Adam Overton, Avatar Body Collision, Joe Stevens, Mark Cooley, Leonore Easton & Boris Hoogeveen, Frank Millward, Eva Sjuve & Chantal Zakari http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/programme.php#friday SATURDAY 8 DEC: *Workshops* with Kelli Dipple (ticketed), Alan Sondheim and Prof. Sandy Baldwin (FREE, booking required) @ Goldsmiths and Second Life (Book Now, Limited Capacity) http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/workshops.php *Seminars* with Dominic Johnson and Paul Sermon (Ticketed | Book Now, Limited Capacity) http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/seminars.php *Performances* with Fran Cottell (booking required), Lauren Goode (booking required), Helena Walsh & Chris Johnston @ Goldsmiths. FREE http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/programme.php#sat *Show & Tell Presentations, Screenings and Posters* @ Goldsmiths. FREE, come along! Featuring: body>data>space, Jaime del Val, kondition pluriel, Nikki Tomlinson, Jan van der Crabben, Branislava Kuburovic, Lena Simic & Gary Anderson, Clara Ursitti, Jo Wonder**, Anna Dimitriu, Anita Ponton, Elena Cologni, Georgia Chatzivasileiadi, //Freya Hattenberger**, Nancy Mauro-Flude, Eva Sjuve Atau Tanaka, Daniel Agnihotri-Clark, Donna Rutherford, Annie Abrahams & Nicolas Frespech, Michael Pinchbeck & Claudia Kappenberg http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/show-tell.php *Performances* @ The Albany. FREE, come along! Featuring: Martina von Holn (booking required), Michelle Browne, Leena Kela, Sam Rose, Jess Dobkin, Pierre Bongiovanni, Camille Renarhd & Gael Guyon, Mary Oliver, Rachelle Beaudoin, Caroline Smith, Jaime del Val (ticketed). http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/programme.php#sat *Premiere* of /Suna No Onna/ by Dans Sans Joux @ Laban. (Ticketed | Book Now, Limited Capacity) http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/programme.php#sat *Intimacy Meal* @ The Albany, =A310 p/p. Booking required, email Owen: performintimacy@googlemail.com // SUNDAY 9 DEC: *Symposium* @ Goldsmiths (Ticketed | Book Now, Limited Capacity) Featuring: Amelia Jones, Paul Sermon, Tracey Warr, Mine Kaylan, Dominc Johnson, Kelli Dipple, Kira O'Reilly, Johannes Birringer, Adrian Heathfield, Janis Jefferies, Lizbeth Goodman, Jess Dobkin, Simon Jones, Ang Bartram. With performances /events by Adam Overton, Rachel Gomme, Hiwa K. & Anaesthesia Associates http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/symposium.php ALSO: 7 & 8/12: Urban Workshop with Pierre Bongiovanni, Camille Renarhd & Gael Guyon (Booking Required) FREE http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/programme.php#urban Throughout: Online Performance by Susana Mendes Silva (booking required); Phone performance by Bernadette Louise; One-to-one event by Chris Dugrenier http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/intimacy/programme.php#thro *We hope to see you at this event that -between you and me- you just /cannot/ miss....* INTIMACY is co-directed by: Maria X [aka Maria Chatzichristodoulou] & Rachel Zerihan. The INTIMACY Board are: Prof. Johannes Birringer, Prof. Janis Jefferies, Gerald Lidstone, Prof. Adrian Heathfield, Hazel Gardiner INTIMACY Across Visceral and Digital Performance is supported by: AHRC ICT Methods Network; Goldsmiths, University of London [Digital Studios, Graduate School, Dpt. of Computing, Dpt. of Drama, Dpt. of Media and Communications, Dpt. of Visual Cultures, Dpt. of Music, Centre for Cultural Studies); Knowledge East; Laban; The Albany and Home. --=20 Maria Chatzichristodoulou [aka maria x] PhD Art and Computational Technolog= ies=20 Goldsmiths Digital Studios skype: mariax_gr www.cybertheater.org ********** --0-561678529-1195695105=:3974-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:13:08 -0500 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Buuck Subject: Will Alexander benefit, SF 12/1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY & POST ON BLOGS ETC> THANKS! DB As many of you know, poet Will Alexander is quite ill with cancer and is undergoing chemotherapy. He's spent his life largely offthe poetry grid, taking on odd jobs, and has no financial support or, needless to say, health insurance. Please join us on Dec 1 at 730 for a Bay Area benefit reading. Donations will be bundled and sent directly to Will. If you cannot make it but would like to contribute, please contact me for details. Readers include: Nate Mackey Juliana Spahr Taylor Brady Lyn Hejinian Andrew Joron Tisa Bryant Adam Cornford D.S. Marriott and more! hosted by David Buuck and Small Press Traffic $10-up donations Saturday December 1, 2008 7:30 PM in Timken Lecture Hall, at the California College of the Arts, 1111--8th Street, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:21:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Paul Muldoon at U of MN Comments: To: Theory and Writing , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pulitzer Prize-winner Paul Muldoon speaks on "The Eternity of the Poem" November 28, 7:30 pm, at Coffman Union Theater (300 Washington Ave. S.E., Mpls.). FREE & OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. Muldoon has published 10 major collections of witty, punning, yet resonant poetry, including his latest HORSE LATITUDES. He was recently named the new poetry editor of the NEW YORKER. The Irish-born Muldoon is also a guitarist and lyricist in the rock band Rackett. He lives in New Jersey, where he is a professor at Princeton. The event will be followed by a reception and book-signing. Presented by the Department of English at the University of Minnesota and the Esther Freier Endowed Lecture Series in Literature. For more info: 612-626-1528; http://english.cla.umn.edu. No tickets necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: FW: Thanksgiving Dinner Poem 2007 : Ron Silliman, Guest of Honor Comments: To: Geoffrey Gatza In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ------ Forwarded Message From: Geoffrey Gatza Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:47:07 -0500 To: Geoffrey Gatza Conversation: Thanksgiving Dinner Poem 2007 : Ron Silliman, Guest of Honor Subject: FW: Thanksgiving Dinner Poem 2007 : Ron Silliman, Guest of Honor ------ Forwarded Message From: Geoffrey Gatza Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:44:54 -0500 To: Geoffrey Gatza Conversation: Thanksgiving Dinner Poem 2007 : Ron Silliman, Guest of Honor Subject: FW: Thanksgiving Dinner Poem 2007 : Ron Silliman, Guest of Honor ------ Forwarded Message From: Geoffrey Gatza Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:43:02 -0500 To: Geoffrey Gatza Conversation: Thanksgiving Dinner Poem 2007 : Ron Silliman, Guest of Honor Subject: Thanksgiving Dinner Poem 2007 : Ron Silliman, Guest of Honor Happy Thanksgiving=20 http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm Thanksgiving Dinner Poem 2007 : Ron Silliman, Guest of Honor Hello and welcome! Let me take your coat and hat. Please grab a warm cider and let=B9s meet the other guests by the fire. Dinner will begin shortly. Thi= s is the sixth year of this poem series and our guest of honor is Ron Silliman. The concept is a menu poem. Each course has a poem associated wit= h a food item in that dish. This is a small tribute to a great poet and if I could have him over for thanksgiving dinner I would make him this. And if h= e ever decides to come, I=B9ll be sure to send you an invite so we all can enjo= y a small moment of comfort together. Best, Geoffrey=20 John Ashbery : Thanksgiving 2006 Robert Creeley : Thanksgiving 2005 Kent Johnson : Thanksgiving 2004 Forrest Gander : Thanksgiving 2003 Charles Bernstein : Thanksgiving 2002 http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm --=20 Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza Editor & Publisher ------------------------------------- BlazeVOX [ books ] Publisher of weird little books -------------------------------------- editor@blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org ------ End of Forwarded Message ------ End of Forwarded Message ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:36:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kate Eichhorn Subject: "The Liberties" of Susan Howe, A pOemPERA by Udo Kasemets Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =B3The Liberties=B2 of Susan Howe, A pOemPERA by Udo Kasemets Evening performance - Saturday, December 1 =AD 8:00 pm - Eaton Lecture Hall, 80 Gould St. Ryerson University, Toronto Afternoon performance - Sunday, December 2 =AD 3:00 pm =AD Eaton Lecture Hall, 80 Gould St. Ryerson University, Toronto Born in Tallinn, Estonia in 1919, Udo Kasemets studied at the Tallinn Conservatory and the Stuttgart Academy of Music in Germany before moving to North America in 1951. Here, Kasemets discovered the work of John Cage and soon abandoned his traditional training to explore electroactoustics. Over the past four decades, Kasemets has written compositions based on works by = a wide range of contemporary poets. His new pOemPERA is based on Susan Howe=B9s =B3The Liberties.=B2=20 =20 Both performances of =B3The Liberties=B2 of Susan Howe, A pOemPERA by Udo Kasemets (Dec. 1 and 2) will feature Howe reading sections of =B3The Liberties=B2 and Kasemets performing the work, written for piano, with two vocalists, Susan Layard and Linda Catlin Smith. Visuals will be provided by video artist Pierre Tremblay. In addition to the two scheduled performances, Howe will read from =B3The Liberties=B2 and forthcoming work and participate in a public discussion with Kasemets at 4:30 on Friday, Nov. 30 (the reading/discussion will also take place in the Eaton Lecture Hall at 80 Gould St. Toronto). All events are free. =20 For more information contact: Kate Eichhorn, Department of English, Ryerson University keichhor@ryerson.ca 416-979-5000, ex. 4195 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:09:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dr. Barry S. Alpert" Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Simon Schuchat, poet, translator, & editor, has worked for the U.S. State D= epartment for many years. As far as I can ascertain, he is currently the E= conomic/Political Section Chief at the U.S. Consulate in Hong Kong. I don= =92t know how great a conflict this has been for him=97to what extent one p= rofession has cancelled out the other. Since he may still be a subscriber = to this listserv, it would be intriguing to hear him on the subject. You c= an get a sense of his literary activity by visiting these two addresses: =20 http://douglangsdcpoetryblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/insert-no-6.html =20 & =20 http://douglangsdcpoetryblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/michael-lally.html =20 (scroll down to the last 3 entries in the Comments section) =20 =20 A google search on his name will yield further examples of his poems and tr= anslations. =20 =20 =20 Barry Alpert _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista=AE + Windows Live=99. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_C= PC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:27:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: response to Jason Quackenbush In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Jason, What you bring up here is very important: the question of individual vs. collective guilt. I believe it remains an open question, one much debated over. Just as it upsets me to be called an "Anglo" in New Mexico when I am in no way an Anglo I still appear to be one to others and so, without my wanting to be, I am an Anglo for as long as I live here. Very strange...I did argue so long that my ancestry is such that most peope in the world would call me anything but "Anglo" but somehow I am very self-conscious about that thing I don't relate to being called ("Anglo") Yesterday a woman from India (someone I know from the internet/ the way we half know people/ don't really know people from the internet) wrote me that everyone hates America. I felt such despair over this, knowing that in spite of our numerous e-mails, she had to see me as one of the ones "everyone hates"???? The discourse in this country IS shrill as you say, Jason,?and I also find this very frustrating. I, too, believe democracy can work. I, too, believe that we who live in America are very fortunate to be here, that much can be overcome because of the system we live under. I wrote these words (words much like yours) to the woman from India. I don't know if she understood or believed anything I said. But I believe it. I want the polarization in this country to somehow....somehow what? I don't know. Everything feels so polarized... I am grateful to have been born in the U.S. My grandparents kissed the ground in this country when they arrived because they were escaping religious persecution and certain death. How sad I was to answer this e-mail to this Indian woman, trying to explain and/ or describe "why" I believe America can rectify its wrongs. But I do believe it, even if?those from foreign nations hate me for saying it. The question of individual vs. collective guilt remains a question. And we all have our separate conclusions and fears. I always fast on thanksgiving regardless. But that's because I feel it is more a sign of gratitude to fast than feast. Even the poorest among us (hopefully the homeless, certainly the homeless in San Francisco--for they have the system down in San Francisco, at least: to help the homeless) has more than enough to eat (I do not deny the poverty or the fact that so many live on almost nothing in this country). We do not wake feeling the fear of?being killed?that very day. We do not live in a regime where we are being pulled off the streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Iranian women (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed by American feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said publicly by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim world)--we (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women are treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t oday) are not stoned to death. Just not to make this message too hopeless, I'd like to?write?this name:?"Martin Luther King"--he had a dream--it must have killed him inside to?shout those words ("I have a dream") in the midst of such horrifying humiliation done to his fellow man. But yes, "I have a dream" said Martin Luther King--and he DID change the world with his dream/ he did change America and he was the poet of poets as far as I'm concerned because his words matched his deeds. And I do believe that America is populated by many such as Martin Luther King. Many of us have a dream to fulfill the basic premises of this great country of ours (and I still say "this great country of ours" and I'm tired of that being interpreted in a way which might mean I in any way support any type of violent policies--I am totally against war--I worked in war/ I know what war "is": for me it is: burn victims, quadriplegics, amputtees, head injuries, and psychological trauma which never leaves. I won't even talk about the deaths because when you see such suffering death is the easy way out (but never for the families of the dead--never) But whether we like it or not, wherever we go, when we open our mouths, or even when our clothes are noticed, or even our body language is recognized all anyone sees is "America" and so if the idea of collective guilt is denied, which it has been denied by many, collective identity is there whether we like it or not. So our actions matter, not only personally, but in a broader sense. And I wish you all a good day, for me the worst day of the year--this holiday just gets to me but...since I am an American and must take collective responsibility for our holidays as well: I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving, Bobbi Date:??? Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:01:24 -0800 From:??? Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! There's not a day that goes by that I don't take a moment to think about the people of Iraq. At the same time, I don't really buy the argument that citizens of a republic, and even less foreign nationals, are complicit in the actions of their government simply by virtue of paying taxes to the state. in all seriousness, this war isn't being funded by tax dollars, it's being funded by a grotesque budget deficit. Which means the people paying for it are not the people paying taxes today, but the people who will be paying taxes thirty years from now. I'll probably be one of them, knock on wood, but many of them are not even alive today. Are they complicit? ARe those of us who voted against King George in our attempt to keep him out of power complicit? I don't think so. There are plenty of things that people are blameworthy for, but I don't agree that you can pin the iraq war on the entirety of the populace just by virtue of us living here. Generally speaking you're right: to quote the sex pistols or tool, whichever you prefer, no one is innocent. But just because we're not innocent doesn't mean we're guilty of every crime that's ever been committed by a bully. Bullying, which is what we're talking about here, whether it's done by a nation against another, or a bigger kid on the playground against a smaller kid, is about as unjust and immoral as actions go. But participation in an unjust action by itself doesn't confer guilt. It never has and it never will. Anything stating otherwise is just propaganda and politics, and frankly I've had enough of that sort of thing over the last decade or so. It won't be until the discourse of the populace that has become so shrill and clangorous can once again be conducted rationally, calmly, and open mindedly that democracy can work. There are a lot of people to blame for that shrillness, and I'd suggest that endeavoring to be innocent of that charge is every bit as important to preventing injustice (particularly for american citizens) as is accepting the realities of the evils our government is doing and has done in the world. ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:42:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Bengali Poets/Writers/Artists lead protest rallies against the state Government In-Reply-To: <77e5e8e50711191637x444d0b0ai5203ad4b57b46a10@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A complex story. Of how a Marxist government can turn neo-liberal and pro-industrialist to an almost maddening degree and end up mishandling the state-run police forces leading to a genocide. A genocide against poor peasants unwilling to give up their farmlands earmarked by the state for industrial development. West Bengal is the only state in India that has been dominated by a Marxist government CPIM (Communist Party of India, Marxist) for 30 years. This government has been elected and re-elected by the people several times in a multi-party democracy. They came into power in 1977 following the tyrannical regime of the previous Congress government. It was a massive electoral win for them which they immediately followed up with land reforms that supported millions of poor landless Bengali farmers. The agrarian system strengthened, people poured their trust on the Marxist government. They found ready support amongst virtually every strata of the society. At the same time no energy was lost to mobilize the unemployed frustrated youth into a cadre-based political force. While agriculture propspered, a rapid decline occured in the industrial scenario. Most profiteering businesses moved out of the state or collapsed. Trade did prosper centering Kolkata but the engineering industry nearly vanished forcing out of the state thousands of skilled workers engineers and technocrats, myself included. Strangely, the same government has now turned their tides against agrarian Bengal. Kind of falling out of place in a rapidly growing Indian economy, they are desperate to invite national and foreign investors. A village called Nandigram was earmarked to be transformed into the next industrial hub. Although the government had designed a rehabilitation program for the to-be-displaced farmers, they weren't willing to evacuate. A genocide resulted from the local farmers defiance against the state-run police early this year. For all these months the village had been nearly sealed by the state government cadres (marxist representatives of the lowest rank) who, often impersonating as the police ( dressed up in their uniforms) had committed serious crimes including rape, murder, massacre and evacuation of hundreds of villagers. The real police force, largely undercover, were instructed to stay out of "all this".The press being kept out of the corner, the real facts are still unknown. A second genocide took place on 14th November, 2007. The Chief Minister of the state of West Bengal, Buddhadev Bhattacharya, a much respected politician, hailed often for his honesty, a fervent supporter of poetry and arts, responsible for funding several films of Satyajit Ray and also an accomplished playwright is viewed as the main culprit. He is being criticized and vilified all over the state. He has become a larger than life example of how "power corrupts" in India. Today he is a Stalinist to many. Poetry has a very high public profile in Bengal and when poets and writers lead a mass rally, it scares the police, concerns the government. Leading mainstream poets like Sankha Ghosh, Joy Goswami, writers, painters, film-directors like Aparna Sen, playwrights led protest rallies on the 14th of November and cordoned the police head-quarters in Kolkata. They were joined by more than a hundred poet/writers who represent parallel Bengali literature and thousands of common Kolkatans. The police baton-charged the protestors. Many were hurt. Several major Bengali poets like Sankha Ghosh, Alok Sarkar had earlier renounced all state honors they had received. Protest rallies have flooded the City of Joy for the past one week, often creating hour-long traffic jams causing all sorts of public inconvenience. Poetry-readings and street-plays are happening in many street corners of the city every single day. Of the hundreds of newslinks that could be found on the net here are a select few. Here is a link to Sanhati, an organization fighting neo-liberalism in Bengal http://sanhati.com/literature/ contains photos of protest rallies Here are some links to privately shot videos at Nandigram on Nov 14, 2007 that are disturbingly revealing http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6507874900373821154 The video depicts police brutalities against the peasants. Faces in search of justice http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5258104696292531156 Joy Goswami, a popular Bengali poet reads on the streets http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7191393332856943004 Kabir Suman writer, folk-singer, sings on one of the city's busiest avenues http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-221510455979222632 Suman sings his lyrics on piano http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4500458103700851925 Joining several other Bengali language webzines, Kaurab also wears a black badge of protest today. Aryanil Mukherjee Editor, Kaurab A Bengali magazine representing parallel literature http://www.kaurab.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie In-Reply-To: <8C9FB2AE9454A83-C04-18F8@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed A woman from Iran spoke to me recently about the abuses she and other Muslim women face, and also felt betrayed that the American media mentions the abuse women face in Sunni Saudi Arabia even less than the abuse women face in Iran. She fears for her safety and freedom in her homeland, but told me that America's talk of "World War 3" with Iran is just making matters worse back home. She suggested that American's selectively singling out Iran (while generally letting Saudi Arabia slide) made it clear, to her, that women's rights has very little to do with the assault on her country as a roque state, etc., by the Bush regime. It's a complex issue, but of course her voice isn't going to be heard too much in the U.S.A. American media either. She's not saying that American women shouldn't support, or find ways to be in solidarity, with Iranian women in this struggle. But why single out Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia where the abuse is just as bad? Chris On Nov 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > We do not live in a regime where we are being pulled off the > streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Iranian women > (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed by American > feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't > gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said publicly > by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim world)-- > we (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women are > treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t > oday) are not stoned to death. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:22:32 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Happy Thanksgiving from the Sidewalk Blogger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=15490&l=e0c18&id=654553661 The "got ?" series, posted in Kane`ohe and Kailua, on park fences and the Marine Corps(e) fences. Roadside memorials to the Iraqi and American dead. The only one that didn't last the night was GOT COFFINS? (ASK ROVE). Feel free to use pictures. Credit to the Sidewalk Blog. aloha, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:27:16 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 21 Nov 2007 to 22 Nov 2007 (#2007-326) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great work Susan, Keep those signs coming All the best from down under Pam Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:22:32 -1000 From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Happy Thanksgiving from the Sidewalk Blogger http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=15490&l=e0c18&id=654553661 The "got ?" series, posted in Kane`ohe and Kailua, on park fences and the Marine Corps(e) fences. Roadside memorials to the Iraqi and American dead. The only one that didn't last the night was GOT COFFINS? (ASK ROVE). Feel free to use pictures. Credit to the Sidewalk Blog. aloha, Susan ------------------------------ End of POETICS Digest - 21 Nov 2007 to 22 Nov 2007 (#2007-326) _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:49:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: response to Jason Quackenbush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nice bobbi individually speaking it's all collective guilt on individual levels if that makes any sense spoke about alot of this at the very boring dinner i attended with 2 vegetarians in attendance i picked the wrong dinner that's for sure if all the kids fighting in iraq (which sickens me more each day) collectively, if not guiltily oput down their weapons and refused to fight an unjust war in the name of democracy there we'd have fini ah but this is just a peace-pipe dream On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:27:14 -0500 Bobbie Lurie writes: > Dear Jason, > What you bring up here is very important: the question of individual > vs. collective guilt. > I believe it remains an open question, one much debated over. > Just as it upsets me to be called an "Anglo" in New Mexico when I am > in no way an Anglo I still appear to be one > to others and so, without my wanting to be, I am an Anglo for as > long as I live here. Very strange...I did argue so long that my > ancestry is such that most peope in the world would call me anything > but "Anglo" but somehow I am very self-conscious about that thing I > don't relate to being called ("Anglo") > Yesterday a woman from India (someone I know from the internet/ the > way we half know people/ don't really know people from the internet) > wrote me that everyone hates America. I felt such despair over this, > knowing that in spite of our numerous e-mails, she had to see me as > one of the ones "everyone hates"???? > The discourse in this country IS shrill as you say, Jason,?and I > also find this very frustrating. > I, too, believe democracy can work. I, too, believe that we who live > in America are very fortunate to be here, that much can be overcome > because of the system we live under. I wrote these words (words much > like yours) to the woman from India. I don't know if she understood > or believed anything I said. But I believe it. I want the > polarization in this country to somehow....somehow what? I don't > know. Everything feels so polarized... > I am grateful to have been born in the U.S. My grandparents kissed > the ground in this country when they arrived because they were > escaping religious persecution and certain death. > How sad I was to answer this e-mail to this Indian woman, trying to > explain and/ or describe "why" I believe America can rectify its > wrongs. But I do believe it, even if?those from foreign nations hate > me for saying it. > The question of individual vs. collective guilt remains a question. > And we all have our separate conclusions and fears. > I always fast on thanksgiving regardless. But that's because I feel > it is more a sign of gratitude to fast than feast. Even the poorest > among us (hopefully the homeless, certainly the homeless in San > Francisco--for they have the system down in San Francisco, at least: > to help the homeless) has more than enough to eat (I do not deny the > poverty or the fact that so many live on almost nothing in this > country). We do not wake feeling the fear of?being killed?that very > day. We do not live in a regime where we are being pulled off the > streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Iranian women > (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed by American > feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't > gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said publicly > by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim world)--we > (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women are > treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t > oday) are not stoned to death. > Just not to make this message too hopeless, I'd like to?write?this > name:?"Martin Luther King"--he had a dream--it must have killed him > inside to?shout those words ("I have a dream") in the midst of such > horrifying humiliation done to his fellow man. But yes, "I have a > dream" said Martin Luther King--and he DID change the world with his > dream/ he did change America and he was the poet of poets as far as > I'm concerned because his words matched his deeds. And I do believe > that America is populated by many such as Martin Luther King. Many > of us have a dream to fulfill the basic premises of this great > country of ours (and I still say "this great country of ours" and > I'm tired of that being interpreted in a way which might mean I in > any way support any type of violent policies--I am totally against > war--I worked in war/ I know what war "is": for me it is: burn > victims, quadriplegics, amputtees, head injuries, and psychological > trauma which never leaves. I won't even talk about the > deaths because when you see such suffering death is the easy way out > (but never for the families of the dead--never) > But whether we like it or not, wherever we go, when we open our > mouths, or even when our clothes are noticed, or even our body > language is recognized all anyone sees is "America" and so if the > idea of collective guilt is denied, which it has been denied by > many, collective identity is there whether we like it or not. So our > actions matter, not only personally, but in a broader sense. > And I wish you all a good day, for me the worst day of the > year--this holiday just gets to me but...since I am an American and > must take collective responsibility for our holidays as well: > I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving, > Bobbi > > > > Date:??? Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:01:24 -0800 > From:??? Jason Quackenbush > Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! > > There's not a day that goes by that I don't take a moment to think > about the > people of Iraq. At the same time, I don't really buy the argument > that citizens > of a republic, and even less foreign nationals, are complicit in the > actions of > their government simply by virtue of paying taxes to the state. in > all > seriousness, this war isn't being funded by tax dollars, it's being > funded by a > grotesque budget deficit. Which means the people paying for it are > not the > people paying taxes today, but the people who will be paying taxes > thirty years > from now. I'll probably be one of them, knock on wood, but many of > them are not > even alive today. Are they complicit? ARe those of us who voted > against King > George in our attempt to keep him out of power complicit? > > I don't think so. > > There are plenty of things that people are blameworthy for, but I > don't agree > that you can pin the iraq war on the entirety of the populace just > by virtue of > us living here. Generally speaking you're right: to quote the sex > pistols or > tool, whichever you prefer, no one is innocent. But just because > we're not > innocent doesn't mean we're guilty of every crime that's ever been > committed by > a bully. Bullying, which is what we're talking about here, whether > it's done by > a nation against another, or a bigger kid on the playground against > a smaller > kid, is about as unjust and immoral as actions go. But participation > in an > unjust action by itself doesn't confer guilt. It never has and it > never will. > Anything stating otherwise is just propaganda and politics, and > frankly I've had > enough of that sort of thing over the last decade or so. > > It won't be until the discourse of the populace that has become so > shrill and > clangorous can once again be conducted rationally, calmly, and open > mindedly > that democracy can work. There are a lot of people to blame for that > shrillness, > and I'd suggest that endeavoring to be innocent of that charge is > every bit as > important to preventing injustice (particularly for american > citizens) as is > accepting the realities of the evils our government is doing and has > done in the > world. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:30:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Stop the epidemic of rape in Congo In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > From: activist@democrats.com > To: davidbchirot@hotmail.com > Subject: Stop the epidemic of rape in Congo > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:39:09 -0500 > > [http://archive.democrats.com/images/small.gif] > > Dear David, > > The New York Times and The Washington Post recently reported disturbing evidence of the increasing "normalcy" of rape in parts of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). > > Click here to tell Congress to pass the International Violence Against Women Act now. > > Bob Fertik > > [http://archive.democrats.com/images/CARE_CongoAlert_masthead.gif] > > [http://archive.democrats.com/images/ACARE_CongoAlert_SB2.gif]Dear Friend, > According to the United Nations, reported cases of rape in the eastern region of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) have risen 60 percent since August. The epidemic of rape and sexual violence is a humanitarian catastrophe in this war-torn country where more than 4 million people have died during years of conflict. We must take action now. > The good news is that on October 31, Senators Joseph Biden (D-DE) and Richard Lugar (R-IN) introduced the International Violence Against Women Act (S.2279), legislation that will significantly increase U.S. commitment to ending gender-based violence in the DRC and around the world. > We at CARE, a leading humanitarian organization fighting global poverty, have been working with local staff to eliminate the violence in the DRC for several years. Please help by contacting Congress today and telling them to pass the International Violence Against Women Act (IVAWA) immediately. > The urgency of the crisis cannot be overstated: "In the case of eastern DRC, the rates of these violations have risen to catastrophic levels and their increasing regularity and brutality over time is well documented," Kevin Fitzcharles, CARE's country director in Uganda, said in recent testimony to Congress. "Armed groups in eastern Congo are effectively using sexual violence as a weapon of war and destruction, inflicting grievous physical, psychological and social harm on women, children and entire communities." > The physical and emotional harm that these women and girls face is staggering. While the perpetrators of these horrific crimes simply move on to their next victims, violated women and girls rarely find the medical and psychological care they so desperately need. CARE staff has been on the ground in the DRC working to address the causes and consequences of violence against women and girls; however, much remains to be done to address this scourge. > Passing the IVAWA would be a major step toward ending the violence endured by Congolese women - and all violence against women. Please don't wait a minute more to write Congress about this crucial legislation. > Thank you. > Sincerely, > [http://archive.democrats.com/images/fgc2_sig.gif] > Helene D. Gayle, MD, MPH > President and CEO, CARE > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:12:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: response to Chris Stroffolino and thank you In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Chris, Thank you so much for bringing this up. It is very important to bring up what is happening to women in Saudi Arabia. There is actually a television show there which teaches men "how to beat your wife"--have you heard of this? I saw portions of this show and it is truly shocking. One of the warnings to men (who are expected to learn wife-beating) is "they'll use their tears to try and stop you so beware" etc. I should not single out Iran and I will not again for truly this is happening throughout Muslim world. I write about Iran in same terms you do really--because what is being ignored in this focus on "WW3 wih Iran" is the fact that so many Iranians are trying internally to not let the current regime overwhelm them--and it just seems so much more logical and compassionate and real to support the internal struggles of the people of Iran (at least by stating them/ not putting them on pg. 35 of newspaper--I mean, that doesn't seem to be so much to ask but the media is really out of it in terms of reporting such very important issues) rather than focusing on yet another war. I agree with you completely! Thank you for bringing this up! If I find out in advance that there will be another broadcast of this television show in Saudi Arabia or if I can find a link to it I will send it to this list. Many thanks for your important addition to this topic! Bobbi Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:12 -0800 From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie A woman from Iran spoke to me recently about the abuses she and other Muslim women face, and also felt betrayed that the American media mentions the abuse women face in Sunni Saudi Arabia even less than the abuse women face in Iran. She fears for her safety and freedom in her homeland, but told me that America's talk of "World War 3" with Iran is just making matters worse back home. She suggested that American's selectively singling out Iran (while generally letting Saudi Arabia slide) made it clear, to her, that women's rights has very little to do with the assault on her country as a roque state, etc., by the Bush regime. It's a complex issue, but of course her voice isn't going to be heard too much in the U.S.A. American media either. She's not saying that American women shouldn't support, or find ways to be in solidarity, with Iranian women in this struggle. But why single out Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia where the abuse is just as bad? Chris On Nov 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > We do not live in a regime where we are being pulled off the > streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Iranian women > (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed by American > feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't > gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said publicly > by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim world)-- > we (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women are > treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t > oday) are not stoned to death. ------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:13:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: wife beating t.v. show in Saudi Arabia and more... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To Chris and others, Here are links to wife beating show in Saudi Arabia that I wrote about in previous post: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/november07/how-to-beat-your-wife.htm http://www.videosift.com/video/How-to-Beat-Your-Wife-According-to-Allah http://discardedlies.com/entry/?35492_beat-your-wife http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=319_1178356324&c=1 Bobbi Lurie ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:36:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sheila black Subject: steinianhejiniansillimanchinesenotebookblackian MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Living Arts Center of Tulsa Freaks Me Out I too have been chosen to perform slash read my inelegant incomprehensible language out loud to many listening ears sticking out of their heads like sausages or maybe cabbages distracting the audience enough that my words uttered sotto vocce or with a southern twang anyway splashes on them like rain that doesn't soak in and someone runs up afterwords re-interpreting what I said with their mouths open saying things like that dog you were writing about sounds lonely do you think he might need a new friend and I say well the name of that piece was angels in heaven are out to get you and I don't remember the dog part so that is why I think reading in public has its pluses and minuses but I make myself do it anyway because otherwise I wouldn't talk to people unless forced which reminds me of the time I told a story about a cat dogs being like foreigners to me and this cat was named Stoner not for the more obvious reasons but rather because she was that color and she liked to roll up like one of those tightly braided rugs which made her coloring at least the way she was folded made her colors fold up in an unusually mottled way that resembled a large flat and beautiful gray and silver rock with occasional lumps on it which only added to her personality and that is also the way I see people as not exactly lumpy but more like notched because being notched today might mean experience unlike the Old West when notches on your belt indicated kills speaking of killing I hope to make a killing at that reading on the 14th of December not in money of course but in audience response if I don't hear at least one gasp or chuckle I fear my voice will die out and the story I will make up usually sounds like this: that word in that spot isn't right maybe if I moved it over there people could actually hear this is a poem about angels not dogs. > Sheeeeebllllkkkkk Sheila Black --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:53:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: the Democratic Republic of Congo/Sankuru Nature Reserve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's another worthwhile initiative regarding the (DRC): FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 15, 2007 Contact: Bonobo Conservation Initiative (202) 332-1014 media@bonobo.org www.bonobo.org Massive New Rainforest Reserve Established in the Democratic Republic of Congo World's Largest Continuous Protected Area for Great Apes Protects The Endangered Bonobo Washington, DC - The Bonobo Conservation Initiative (BCI) joins the government of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) in announcing the creation of the new Sankuru Nature Reserve, a huge rainforest area harboring the endangered bonobo, a great ape most closely related to humans. Larger than the state of Massachusetts, the new reserve encompasses 11,803 square miles of tropical rainforest, extremely rich in biodiversity. "This is a monumental step towards saving a significant portion of the world's second largest rainforest, of critical importance to the survival not only of humankind's closest great ape relative, the bonobo, but to all life on Earth given the increasing threat of climate change," said Sally Jewell Coxe, president and co-founder of the Bonobo Conservation Initiative. The Sankuru region was hit very hard during the recent war in the Congo, which devastated the local people and claimed four million lives-more than any war since WWII. In addition to the critical environmental challenges presented by unsustainable hunting, the humanitarian crisis must also be addressed. "The people of Sankuru rely on the forest for every aspect of their livelihood. Helping them to develop economic alternatives to the bushmeat trade is one of the most urgent priorities," Coxe said. In danger of extinction, bonobos (Pan paniscus) were the last great ape to be discovered and are the least known great ape species. Found only in the DRC, bonobos inhabit the heart of the Congo Basin, Africa's largest rainforest, which is threatened by the onslaught of industrial logging. Bonobos are distinguished by their peaceful, cooperative, matriarchal society, remarkable intelligence, and sexual nature. Other than humans, bonobos are the only primates known to have sex not only for procreation, but also for pleasure and conflict resolution-and with members of either sex. Unlike chimpanzees, bonobos do not murder or wage war on others of their own kind. They serve as a powerful flagship both for conservation and for peace. In addition to the bonobo, the Sankuru Reserve contains the okapi (Okapia johnstoni), an exotic short necked forest giraffe also endemic to the DRC, but not previously found outside of their known range far to the northeast. Survey teams from the Congo's Center for Research in Ecology and Forestry (CREF) sponsored by BCI made this exciting discovery. Sankuru also contains elephants, which have been hunted out in many other areas of the Congo forest, plus at least 10 other species of primates, including the rare owl faced monkey and blue monkey. The wildlife is under intense pressure from organized hunting for the commercial bushmeat trade. The report from the Congolese Institute for Conservation of Nature (ICCN) on its recent expedition to the area states that "the ecocide must be stopped" and recommends immediate action to protect this invaluable ecosystem and watershed. The DRC Minister of the Environment, Didace Pembe Bokiaga, who officially declared the new reserve, said, "This increases the total area of protected land in the DRC to 10.47%, bringing us closer to our goal of 15%. We are proud that the Sankuru Reserve is being created in the framework of community participative conservation...and will be zoned to guarantee the rights of the local population." Andre Tosumba, director of BCI's Congolese NGO partner, ACOPRIK (Community Action for the Primates of Kasai), led the successful local effort to protect Sankuru. "When I saw the extent to which people were hunting bonobos, okapi, and elephants, we began to sensitize them to realize the value of these animals," he said. "Once they came to understand, the people themselves decided to stop hunting these precious species and to create a reserve to protect their forest. BCI has helped ACOPRIK and the local people at every step of the way; we call on the international community to join our effort." Protecting Sankuru Reserve's forest will contribute significantly to mitigating global warming. Approximately 20% of annual green house gas emissions come from deforestation and other land-use change. Keeping this rich tropical forest intact will make an important contribution to global efforts to reduce emissions while simultaneously conserving biodiversity. The Sankuru Reserve stores up to 660 million tons of carbon, which if released by deforestation would emit up to 2 billion tons of carbon dioxide, comparable to emissions from 38,000,000 cars per year for 10 years. "This is a huge victory for bonobo and rainforest conservation," Coxe said. "However our work has just begun. Now we need investment to successfully manage the reserve. And, other areas need to be protected to ensure the long-term survival of the bonobo and the integrity of the Congo rainforest." The Sankuru Reserve is the southern anchor for a constellation of linked, community-based reserves being developed by BCI in the Bonobo Peace Forest, a project supported by DRC President Joseph Kabila since its inception in 2002. The Bonobo Conservation Initiative (BCI) is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization dedicated to the survival of the endangered bonobo (Pan paniscus) and its rainforest habitat in the Congo Basin. BCI works with indigenous Congolese people through cooperative conservation and community development programs and with the government of the DRC to establish new protected areas and to safeguard bonobos wherever they are found. BCI has been selected as a featured charity in the Catalogue for Philanthropy, for excellence, innovation and cost-effectiveness. Initial support for this project has been provided by the Great Ape Conservation Fund, administered by the US Fish and Wildlife Service in collaboration with USAID's Central African Regional Program for the Environment. Forward email This email was sent to poet_in_hell@yahoo.com, by news@bonobo.org Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe™ | Privacy Policy. Email Marketing by Bonobo Conservation Initiative | 2701 Connecticut Avenue, NW # 702 | Washington | DC | 20008 var callCount = 0; function rmvScroll( msg ) { if ( ++callCount > 10 ) { msg.style.visibility = "visible"; } if ( callCount msg.clientHeight ) { newHeight = msg.scrollHeight + delta; } delta = msg.offsetWidth - msg.clientWidth; delta = ( isNaN( delta )? 1 : delta + 1 ); if ( msg.scrollWidth > msg.clientWidth ) { newWidth = msg.scrollWidth + delta; } msg.style.overflow = "visible"; msg.style.visibility = "visible"; if ( newWidth > 0 || newHeight > 0 ) { var ssxyzzy = document.getElementById( "ssxyzzy" ); var cssAttribs = ['#' + msg.id + '{']; if ( newWidth > 0 ) cssAttribs.push( 'width:' + newWidth + 'px;' ); if ( newHeight > 0 ) cssAttribs.push( ' height:' + newHeight + 'px;' ); cssAttribs.push( '}' ); try { ssxyzzy.sheet.deleteRule( 0 ); ssxyzzy.sheet.insertRule( cssAttribs.join(""), 0 ); } catch( e ){} } } function imgsDone( msg ) // for Firefox, we need to scan for images that haven't set their width yet { var imgList = msg.getElementsByTagName( "IMG" ); var len = ((imgList == null)? 0 : imgList.length); for ( var i = 0; i [input] [input] [input] [input] [input] [input] [input] [input] --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:00:40 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Danny Snelson Subject: Re: ------anhe------sillimanchine--noteboo------ian MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sheeeeebllllkkkkk < this is fantastic & i hear you loud & clear & i love the part where you write about heavenly hot dog grinding machines -- my favorite form of rude blues & g.w.pabst films are the paeans to the hot-dog-man -- but 4real 2true live reading is a scary thing in all the norse & differant scarry sentenses. i had a similar experience at a reading i did recently here in tokyo at a small venue -- i'd crafted to my mind a beautiful autobiographical vocal work around the manchinistic script generated by a robot reading my small selection best of my favorite bits of david daniel's sublime HUMANSlettristic-each-symbol-sounded-left-to-right epic but to my dismay there may have only been two or maybe three english speakers in the house & those ones looked at me funny thats all & most of all at that! i left tho with a recording maybe i'll shoot it onto splatter a digital brick wall somewhere round here soon. .. . if emails could record the chuckles the reader emitted while reading & further relayed those chuckles back to the writer in live time, what killings might not be perpetrated fer sed lulz -- interrobang -- in any case -- these words here are for mine & i hope you get yers -- were i in tulsa i wd give u wut i cld. sincerely yrs, danny On Nov 23, 2007 9:36 AM, sheila black wrote: > Living Arts Center of Tulsa Freaks Me Out > > I too have been chosen to perform slash read my inelegant > incomprehensible language out loud to many listening ears > sticking out of their heads like sausages or maybe cabbages > distracting the audience enough that my words uttered > sotto vocce or with a southern twang anyway splashes on them > like rain that doesn't soak in and someone runs up afterwords > re-interpreting what I said with their mouths open > saying things like that dog you were writing about sounds > lonely do you think he might need a new friend and I say > well the name of that piece was angels in heaven > are out to get you and I don't remember the dog part so that > is why I think reading in public has its pluses and minuses > but I make > myself do it anyway because otherwise I wouldn't > talk to people unless forced which reminds me of the time > I told a story about a cat dogs being like foreigners to me > and this cat was named Stoner not for the more obvious reasons > but rather because she was that color and she liked to roll up > like one of those tightly braided rugs which made her coloring > at least the way she was folded made her colors fold up in an > unusually mottled way that resembled a large flat and beautiful > gray and silver rock with occasional lumps on it > which only added to her personality and that is also > the way I see people as not exactly lumpy but more like > notched because being notched today might mean experience > unlike the Old West when notches on your belt indicated > kills speaking of killing I hope to make a killing at that > reading on the 14th of December not in money of course > but in > audience response if I don't hear at least one gasp > or chuckle I fear my voice will die out and the story I will > make up usually sounds like this: that word in that spot isn't > right maybe if I moved it over there people could actually > hear this is a poem about angels not dogs. > > > Sheeeeebllllkkkkk > > > Sheila Black > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See > how. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:40:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: nostalgia for genocide, or LET'S PLAY genocide! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To Ryan and others, ESPECIALLY those back channeled folks (why don't people write ON the List?). Some of you just didn't read the petition. The petition, and the fast itself was for Iraq. Not only that, but, a genocide that happened 400+ years ago? Are you kidding me? Do you ACTUALLY believe what we're doing in Iraq is NOT a continuation? (The massacre at Wounded Knee was in 1890 by the way) What if there was oil in France and we wanted it? And invaded? NO WAY would that be allowed! The connection of chopping people of color down for profit is so institutionalized we think it's something that was done a long long LONG time ago. WE WOULD NEVER DO THAT NOW! Right? We would NEVER even DREAM of going into a country that didn't belong to us and kill, kill, kill, for profit. Not NOW! Someone said to me recently, "Condaleeza Rice isn't white." And I said, "True, but the corporate power structure she ultimately answers to IS!" The most common question was, "How do you think this is going to make an impact?" As though I thought this was going to STOP the war, or something. What's important it seems to me is to recreate this world as much as possible, everyday if possible. Traditions are as responsible as anything to maintaining this murderous world. To DO something different, especially with children, seems vital more than ever. To have us say NO to a meal drenched in lies from the white anglo fatherhood feels very important. Instead of course we're having MORE and MORE children in America and submerging them, and ourselves in the nostalgia for holidays. We really NEED a break, we tell ourselves. We're so stressed out. OH REALLY? WELL HOW ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF BAGHDAD, ARE THEY STRESSED OUT? I had a coworker tell me the other day, "I just CANNOT read the newspaper, it stresses me out, it's too depressing! Besides, I want to really ENJOY Christmas this year! I want to watch Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer with my nephew, REALLY ENJOY IT, you know?" Stressed out!? Who's stressed out more than the people of Iraq? And now I'm sickened by the christmas shopping season that's only just begun. How do we keep from vomiting every single fucking day? NO WONDER there are (literally) HUNDREDS of Iraq War vets who come home after their tour of duty only to leave in disgust, marry women in other countries and denounce their US citizenship. I feel like wearing black everyday, in mourning for the death of our good sense. And the death of our sense of responsibility. The American death toll reaches 4,000 in Iraq, the death toll of Iraqi citizens climbs up to ONE MILLION. That number just is impossible to grasp. A million human beings. One million human beings. What is this coming down to a number thing? How many poets? How many mothers? How many ... something, something anything to make that number seem MORE tangible. To say one million ANYTHING is to put it out of context. Speaking of THANKSGIVING DINNER, and speaking of the denial of America about its wars, have you ever seen the movie THE WAR AT HOME starring Emilio Estevez, Kathy Bates, Martin Sheen, and Kimberly Williams. I don't often talk about movies, but this one really hits home with the denial issues. Will none of our elected officials do their jobs we hired them to do? Didn't we hire the present congress to change things? I feel like a broken recorded. But so is the country. And there really is no one to vote for for president. Kucinich was my only hope, and he's no hope because he'll never win the primary. I'm voting for him anyway. Voting booths should come equipped with vomit bags. Or wear a shirt with a pocket, or something. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:59:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Wilkinson Subject: Rabbit Light Movies is Online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.rabbitlightmovies.com rabbitlightmovies@gmail.com xo jmw ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:52:46 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new from Chaudiere Books: Old Winter Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The pieces that make up Anne Le Dressays second poetry collection, Old Winter, are urban poems grounded in the rural past. Understated, direct, ironic, quietly humorous, they reveal a love of the particular, of small daily things which feel more and more fragile in a world overshadowed by big threats. Descriptive or narrative, focussing on the inner world of mind and spirit or the real world outside the narrator, these poems celebrate in close and vivid detail the small moments of ordinary life. They are poems of wonder, transformation, and resurrection. And the meek shall inherit Not this. Perhaps some post- millenial earth where lying low pays off in survival while the loud and pushy get clobbered. Those who inherit this earth are those who shout loudest, or who simply take because they know it's theirs. If the meek inherit, it's not anything as spacious or solid or fecund as the earth. Unless they taste it in the dust kicked up by the exuberant wheels of the true inheritors taking off with their inheritance. Anne Le Dressay grew up in Manitoba, first on a farm near Virden and then on an acreage outside Lorette. She has lived for extended periods in Winnipeg, Ottawa, and Edmonton (in that order). She taught English and Creative Writing for ten years in Alberta. She is now in Ottawa for the seond time, working for the feds. She has been published sporadically since the 1970s. She has one previous trade book, Sleep is a Country (Harbinger, 1997) and two chapbooks, This Body That I Live In (Turnstone, 1979) and Woman Dreams (above/ground, 1998). She was also featured in the anthology Decalogue: ten Ottawa poets (Chaudiere Books, 2006). $18 CAN/$16 US isbn 978-0-9783428-0-7 available to bookstores through the literary press group or directly through the publishers at az421@freenet.carleton.ca review copies available upon request http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2007/11/new-from-chaudiere-books-old-winter-by.html -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:39:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: response to Wife Beaters, Violence Against Women/interview & Poetry with an Iranian Woman Poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline (At my blogspot and in various entries are links and examples of painting, street art, grafitti, stencils etc from Iran and yesterday the following interview from June 12, 2007 with the Iranian (woman) poet, translator, journalist and editor Farideh Hassanzadeh Post: Interview & Poetry with Iranian Poet Farideh Hassanzadeh (also with poem "Isn't it Enough") Link: http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2007/11/interview-with-iranian-poet-farideh.html which is also at: http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4300 ---) There's a common kind of man's undershirt familiarly known in America as "a wife-beater." A white, ribbed one with thin straps rather than sleeves. You see them all the time, and that really is their often affectionately pronounced sobriquet. Every 9 seconds a woman is assaulted in the USA, rape and violence against women and children is on the rise from their already astronomical rates of occurence, and if you take a look at American tv with or without cable access, one could compile a pretty incredible "teaching manual" on how to do everything from threatening and harassing a woman, young girl or female child via every known media of communication to "BTK"--"bind, torture, kill" as the MO of a particular serial killer is known by--and beyond that, into ever more precise, horrific, forensic detail on methods of degradation, humiliation, and sexual "freak ons" leading to prolonged periods of gruesome and scientifically controlled sufferings. And in many cases, it will turn out that not even the corpse is safe from further dismemberment and sexual assault. All interlarded with chirpy ads for deodorant, diets, dogfood, previews of shows with screaming headlines like "who will bomb Iran first?" "our nation is threatened by hordes of illegal aliens! act now!" "will Brittany even be allowed to see her children?" "the Private Diana as told by her sons" and "Why Torture is Necessary." Today is the Biggest Shopping Day of the Year. But that's just in stores. Right here as I write for five bucks you can go behind a dumpster with a woman, and for a good day's pay, get a motel room, some dope and a woman and try out just about everything you've seen on tv, in porno, been told about. And do you think anyone's really even going to care or do much of anything about it, in this enlightened and free land? As long as no property is damaged--no. You don't even need tv to learn this stuff---men get to learn it from their fathers, uncles, brothers, friends. "Everybody does it. Got to keep the ***** in line." Of course there is not much interest in the "internal struggles of the Iranian people." No one in America had any such interest in what the Shah did--our beloved, CIA installed Shah--to his people. Wasn't that the "Peacock Throne" or some such we bestowed on him? I remember meeting many of his former subjects who sought refuge--their bodies scarred by his torturers. The fools! They didn't believe in the "right of Royalty," even when it was a gift from a democracy! And what did we do for the Iranian people when those ungrateful ones had a Revolution? Why we got our old also American installed buddy Saddam Hussein to go to war for almost a decade with Iran, supplied with our chemical, biological weapons and massive hordes of tanks, bombs, material of all sorts and billions in funding. Millions of Iraqis and Iranians died in that war, which included the biggest tank battle ever fought, and huge Iranian casualties from bio and chemical weapons assaults, "Made in USA" . When that horrific attempt was not enough, it seems like Nukes might just be next on the menu, don't you think? And we better be quick about it!--after all we've spent 17 years now destroying Iraq--can't waste any more time, troops, trillions of debt. The landscape of Iraq and parts of Iran are so toxic from the American depleted uranium weapons used on the populaces there that cancers and new forms of diseases have been carrying out silent deadly daily warfare just as effective as bombings in their effects through time and generations. The landscapes of Afghanistan, Lebanon and Palestine have also been blessed with the contributions of American weaponry which destroys the environment as well as the human bio-chemical -nervous system. The Iranians are surrounded by nuclear powers--Israel, Russia, China, Pakistan, India. Remember when Saddam was able to attack with WMDS within 45 minutes--London? maybe the USA? And now of course Iran, despite lack of any evidence-- is the most dangerous regime on the planet. Maybe they have discovered Kryptonite! And who are our dear allies? Besides the Saudis, such other beacons of tolerance and freedom as Pakistan and Israel, along with the stray Emirate or two-- Are "dissident elements" within Iran to greet us bearing flowers the way the Iraqis were supposed to do? Do you suppose they really think we stand for liberty, equality of the sexes, the right to a free trial, the right to privacy and freedom of speech, the right to organize workers or receive universal health care? Which kinds of wife beating does anyone think the world is supposed to actually find preferable? "Ours"?--Is there really some kind of competition being held for "our" judgement on the world's tvs in this department? This is a world wide atrocity, not "theirs" alone. I realize somehow the USA unilaterally or with a few others in a "coalition of the willing" miraculously seems no longer "of this world" in terms of having to be responsable to the Conventions of Human Rights, so perhaps it's pointless to even ask these questions. Maybe what one sees and hears here (right here) everyday is really "better" than what goes on "over there." Stoning people!! How barbaric! Can't this be done the much more civilized way, the way we do it? Don't you think we should invade, murder, rape, loot, poison, starve. kidnap and detain indefinetly, torture and destroy these Evil Ones, teach them all the Right Way to Live? Introduce them to some really civilized television? Force them to read and write some "radical, experimental" poetry to "shock and awe" them into our higher state of consciousness? Make the men all wear wife-beaters? Someday hopefully the USA will remember it is part of the same planet and be interested in being an example of a real equality of women--including equal pay for equal work-- rather than the world's Number One Wife Beater, Blower-Upper, Widow Maker, Child Robber, Poisoner, Starver, Humiliator, and Dictator of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Power, Greed and Resources. For men, to be sure. Yes maybe someday it will be remembered the women of America are also on the same planet where these atrocities occur, and are also living and dying from them. Here is a poem by Farideh Hassanzadeh, who, incidentally, edited an anthology of Contemporary American Poetry to appear in Iran this year. ISN'T IT ENOUGH? I gave up love being satisfied with the quiet of shadows And memories. Time was past, lost, moments exploded by the rain of bombs. At nightfall I don't brush my dreams any more. At nightfall I don't care for the wandering sun any more. At nightfall I leave the frightened moon in the sky to shelter under the ground. I am neither a woman nor a poet any more. Night by night more and more, I feel real. Like the bloody sound of alarms, Like the roaring anti-aircraft rounds, Like the falling bombs and rockets, which turn the ruins and ashes into eternal reality; I feel night by night more real and old, so old and real that in the mirror I see nothing anymore but an aisle of empty chairs. Oh, isn't it enough? What does a man need more than a loaf of bread, a quiet night and an armful of bleak love, for giving up and being satisfied with the quiet of shadows and memories? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:19:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: <803740.39719.qm@web86006.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I remember Paz saying first poets were couriers then they were diplomats now they are professors--so around Paz's time & before you will find many. a peaceful holiday time to all. On 11/21/07 10:54 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest publication > from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of the book's content > comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat for the Greek > government-in-exile during the occupation. This got me thinking about how many > modernist poets worked in the foreign service at one level or another--St. > John Perse, Octavio Paz, and Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. My > question, for the scholars out there: does there exist any significant study > of modernist poetry and the foreign service? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:42:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Around the world in 8 reviews - including Kent Johnson=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B9s?= Epigramititis: 118 Living American Poets Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 RECONFIGURATIONS: =20 Inquiring Minds Want to Know: Kent Johnson=B9s Epigramititis: 118 Living American Poets by Bill Freind http://reconfigurations.blogspot.com/2007/11/bill-freind-inquiring-minds-wa= n t-to.html=20 =20 =20 J=B9Lyn Chapman, "BlazeVOX & the Post-Avant" http://reconfigurations.blogspot.com/2007/11/jlyn-chapman-blazevox-and-publ= i shing.html=20 =20 =20 Joseph S. Cooper. Autobiography of a Stutterer. Kenmore, NY: BlazeVOX, 2007= . Amy King. I=B9m the Man Who Loves You. Kenmore, NY: BlazeVOX, 2007. Jared Schickling. Aurora. Kenmore, NY: BlazeVOX, 2007. =20 =20 GALATEA RESURRECTS Eighth Issue at http://galatearesurrection8.blogspot.com =20 Ryan Daley reviews THE ECSTASY OF CAPITULATION by Daniel Borzutzky =20 Eileen Tabios engages HUMAN SCALE by Michael Kelleher =20 Kristina Marie Darling reviews INBOX by Noah Eli Gordon =20 =20 RATTLE =20 Aaron Belz=B9s The Bird Hoverer reviewed on RATTLE http://www.rattle.com/ereviews/belzaaron.htm --=20 Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza Editor & Publisher ------------------------------------- BlazeVOX [ books ] Publisher of weird little books -------------------------------------- editor@blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:19:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: Buffalo State College MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (this is a forward. please don't respond to me. good luck!) Buffalo State College (not University of Buffalo), tenure-track assistant professor, English Department, to begin September 2008. Salary is competitive. Responsibilities: Teach undergraduate and graduate courses in creative writing and general education, advise students in new writing major. Engage in academic or applied research and/or creative work. Contribute to general education and/or honors program and to service mission of college. Required Qualifications: M.F.A., Ph.D., or related degree in appropriate field (creative writing or English preferred). Significant publications in fiction and/or creative nonfiction. Ability to teach multiple genres. Commitment to mission, vision, and values of college. Preferred Qualifications: Publication of at least one book through a reputable press. College-level teaching experience. Expertise in composition/rhetorical theory. Applications must be received on or before November 30, 2007. Specify line #21439 and send letter of application, CV, and contact information for 3 professional references to: English Department Chair, Buffalo State College, Ketchum Hall 326, 1300 Elmwood Ave., Buffalo, NY 14222-1095. Electronic submissions are preferred and may be submitted to English(at)buffalostate.edu (replace (at) with @). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:05:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 When I read this: "...who, by the way, feel betrayed by American feminists = who they have tried to gain support from but haven't gained any support fro= m..." I was reminded of this: The Subjection of Islamic Women and the fecklessness of American feminism.= =20 by Christina Hoff Sommers=20 05/21/2007, Volume 012, Issue 34=20 http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=3D136= 41 Nicholas Karavatos Dept of English American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:12 -0800 > From: cstroffo@EARTHLINK.NET > Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > A woman from Iran spoke to me recently about the abuses she and other > Muslim women face, and also felt betrayed that the American media > mentions the abuse women face in Sunni Saudi Arabia even less than > the abuse women face in Iran. She fears for her safety and freedom in > her homeland, but told me that America's talk of "World War 3" with > Iran is just making matters worse back home. She suggested that > American's selectively singling out Iran (while generally letting > Saudi Arabia slide) made it clear, to her, that women's rights has > very little to do with the assault on her country as a roque state, > etc., by the Bush regime. It's a complex issue, but of course her > voice isn't going to be heard too much in the U.S.A. American media > either. She's not saying that American women shouldn't support, or > find ways to be in solidarity, with Iranian women in this struggle. > But why single out Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia where the abuse is > just as bad? > Chris > > On Nov 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > >> We do not live in a regime where we are being pulled off the >> streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Iranian women >> (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed by American >> feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't >> gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said publicly >> by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim world)-- >> we (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women are >> treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t >> oday) are not stoned to death. _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE= ! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_1120= 07= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:14:21 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wild honey Subject: Wild Honey Press News Comments: To: The Happy Baby Company MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wild Honey Press News =20 VIDEO A text-video of the poem "Repetitions" by Geoffrey Squires is now = available at www.wildhoneypress.com =20 The video is available in two formats: Windows Media Video and as a = Flash Video at YouTube. =20 Geoffrey Squires is the author a number of books including his books = include Drowned Stones (New Writers' Press, Dublin, 1975), XXI Poems = (Menard Press, London, 1980), Landscape and Silences (New Writers' = Press, Dublin, 1996), A Long Poem in Three Sections (Levraut de Poche, = London, 1997), This (privately published, 1997) and Untitled and Other = Poems 1975-2002 (Bray, 2004). =20 REVIEW A review of Candice Ward's chapbook, The Moon Sees the One" by Mark = Dickinson is now online in Jacket 34. =20 http://jacketmagazine.com/34/dickinson-ward.shtml =20 Candice Ward earned an MFA degree ("with distinction") from the = University of Massachusetts, Amherst, in the 1970s, when she was also = twice a Bread Loaf Scholar. Her work has been widely published in the = U.S., the U.K., and Australia in such print and online journals as = Denver Quarterly, Jacket, Salt, Shenandoah and Stand. Now retired, she = was for many years the managing editor of the South Atlantic Quarterly = at Duke University. =20 Best wishes, =20 Randolph ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:22:20 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: response to Wife Beaters, Violence Against Women/interview & Poetry with ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a reply to David Chirot's indictment of American treatment of American women & girls; Bobbi Lurie knows I sympathize w/ her concern for Iranian (Muslim) women & girls. In fact, I offered serious help to a merchant-class Marxist family of daughters during the time of Khomeini, a story I shall tell some night around a campfire. Last night I was out for a drink & a taxi ride -- we were in obvious danger, so obvious, no one remarked it. Yes, because no t only are clubs considered to be dangerous places, where women are courting violence if it happens to them, and so serve as their own alibi, but because that club in particular has been known to be the site of conflict -- it is a place where men & women both have struck out & against men & women both. What are the chances, but I was traveling with three women, two of whom had been hit by women at that club. I mention this to create a sense of what our peace & dancing were all about last night, in the eye of the storm. Later, we had to wait at a convenience store -- also site of American violence -- while the police called our cab, since our own efforts to summon a cab had done little good (all of us had planned not to drive), and we were destined to have to wait there until 3 in the morning, in wool & furs. We were caught out late, protecting the public from the dimwittedness of driving on martinis. Because the cop helped us get a cab faster, we talked w/ him about his philosophy -- he was a young man & non-drinker -- regarding arresting party goers; he said he was more likely to arrest a crying woman. I started eating Fritos in front of him, as if I were intently listening. We were in the quiet, sweet, and sleepy heart of lake land, in Orono, a town so expensive, if you were to peek along the driveways & shoreline, you wouldn't know or suspect what goes on there -- you wouldn't want to suspect; Iranians themselves wouldn't want to suspect. But about which we know, because of the divorces and women's shelters and drop-out prevention and treatment programs. AMB One of the songs we heard last night: HONKY TONK WOMEN (Jagger/Richards) I met a gin soaked, bar-room queen in Memphis, She tried to take me upstairs for a ride. She had to heave me right across her shoulder 'Cause I just can't seem to drink you off my mind. It's the honky tonk women Gimme, gimme, gimme the honky tonk blues. I laid a divorcee in New York City, I had to put up some kind of a fight. The lady then she covered me with roses, She blew my nose and then she blew my mind. It's the honky tonk women Gimme, gimme, gimme the honky tonk blues. (Yeah!) It's the honky tonk women. Gimme, gimme, gimme the honky tonk blues. (Yeah!) It's the honky tonk women. Gimme, gimme, gimme the honky tonk blues. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:59:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje)" Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did a quick search for something along the lines of what Barry asked about, and just an Oxford UP book by Vincent Sherry called The Great War and the Language of Modernism (2003) seems tangentially to address the issue. What an interesting question, though, about modernist poets in the foreign service (I'm interested in the history of what poets have tended to do for money). And these aren't modernists, but perhaps they're part of the geneology nonetheless: Chaucer, who was some kind of foreign minister for both Richard II and Henry IV, and Thomas Wyatt, who likewise did foreign errands for Henry VIII. =20 ....................................................... Joanie Mackowski, PhD Assistant Professor English & Comparative Literature University of Cincinnati PO Box 210069 Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 Tel. 513/556-3207 Fax 513/556-5960 joanie.mackowski@uc.edu http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Ruth Lepson Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 6:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service I remember Paz saying first poets were couriers then they were diplomats now they are professors--so around Paz's time & before you will find many. a peaceful holiday time to all. On 11/21/07 10:54 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest publication > from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of the book's content > comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat for the Greek > government-in-exile during the occupation. This got me thinking about how many > modernist poets worked in the foreign service at one level or another--St. > John Perse, Octavio Paz, and Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. My > question, for the scholars out there: does there exist any significant study > of modernist poetry and the foreign service? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:22:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: What makes the present so sexy? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've enjoyed attenuated limbic activity over the past week -- must be the meat. Anyhow, I'm thinking about stuff. So here's the list; let's know if you're game for expansion --- - Human rights are sexy. We should convice the ayatollah (sp?) and the cia that they're repugnant. Who's with me? - Of course, womens' rights are significantly more sexy than human rights, in general, but, correct me, is our US Court System's unofficial (official?) definition of pornography: "We know it when we see it?" - I may have made two point in the previous one. (I actually thought about this point the most.) - You know, I just realized (that besides the fact that, gosh darnit, people like me) is after all, Star Wars is not really a space movie or a futurist movie, but actually a western movie masquerading as a russian novel !! - Honk if you want a list of url's to actual Space Westerns at the listenlight uri: http://listenlight.net (uri == (equals) uniform resource identifier (fyi = (is) for your information: awesome.)) - I've spent all day mystery science theaterring everything from Fantastic Four to the latest Diane Keaton movie to the big KUMU game. - And I feel fine. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:33:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Add Marlowe and Aphra Behn, and her boyfriend Ravenscroft, spies all, and Milton (Latin Secretary). At 03:59 PM 11/24/2007, you wrote: >I did a quick search for something along the lines of what Barry asked >about, and just an Oxford UP book by Vincent Sherry called The Great War >and the Language of Modernism (2003) seems tangentially to address the >issue. What an interesting question, though, about modernist poets in >the foreign service (I'm interested in the history of what poets have >tended to do for money). And these aren't modernists, but perhaps >they're part of the geneology nonetheless: Chaucer, who was some kind >of foreign minister for both Richard II and Henry IV, and Thomas Wyatt, >who likewise did foreign errands for Henry VIII. > >....................................................... >Joanie Mackowski, PhD >Assistant Professor >English & Comparative Literature >University of Cincinnati >PO Box 210069 >Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 >Tel. 513/556-3207 >Fax 513/556-5960 >joanie.mackowski@uc.edu >http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >On Behalf Of Ruth Lepson >Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 6:20 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service > >I remember Paz saying first poets were couriers then they were diplomats >now >they are professors--so around Paz's time & before you will find many. >a peaceful holiday time to all. > > >On 11/21/07 10:54 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" >wrote: > > > I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest >publication > > from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of the book's >content > > comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat for the Greek > > government-in-exile during the occupation. This got me thinking about >how many > > modernist poets worked in the foreign service at one level or >another--St. > > John Perse, Octavio Paz, and Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. >My > > question, for the scholars out there: does there exist any significant >study > > of modernist poetry and the foreign service? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:53:53 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I can quite understand Islamic women fighting for justice feeling betrayed by the American government and medea. But I find this idea that American feminism has "betrayed" Islamic women somewhat troubling. It may or may not be true - I am not familiar enough with the area, and of course there are fools in every area of study - but I would point out that Christina Hoff Sommers lists herself as being part of the American Enterprise Institute. And that the AEI is a well-known neocon think tank. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Enterprise_Institute http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1431 Among others things, they are funded by Exxon - and notoriously offered cash to scientists to undermine a UN report on climate change http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/feb/02/frontpagenews.climatechange So I would suggest a little scepticism is in order, at least. I find it hard to believe that any sensible feminist would ignore or be unmoved by misogynistic violence in the Islam world. All best Alison On Nov 24, 2007 5:05 PM, Nicholas Karavatos wrote: > When I read this: "...who, by the way, feel betrayed by American feminists > who they have tried to gain support from but haven't gained any support > from..." > > I was reminded of this: > > The Subjection of Islamic Women and the fecklessness of American feminism. > by Christina Hoff Sommers > 05/21/2007, Volume 012, Issue 34 > > http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=13641 > > > > Nicholas Karavatos > Dept of English > American University of Sharjah > PO Box 26666 > Sharjah > United Arab Emirates > > > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:12 -0800 > > From: cstroffo@EARTHLINK.NET > > Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > A woman from Iran spoke to me recently about the abuses she and other > > Muslim women face, and also felt betrayed that the American media > > mentions the abuse women face in Sunni Saudi Arabia even less than > > the abuse women face in Iran. She fears for her safety and freedom in > > her homeland, but told me that America's talk of "World War 3" with > > Iran is just making matters worse back home. She suggested that > > American's selectively singling out Iran (while generally letting > > Saudi Arabia slide) made it clear, to her, that women's rights has > > very little to do with the assault on her country as a roque state, > > etc., by the Bush regime. It's a complex issue, but of course her > > voice isn't going to be heard too much in the U.S.A. American media > > either. She's not saying that American women shouldn't support, or > > find ways to be in solidarity, with Iranian women in this struggle. > > But why single out Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia where the abuse is > > just as bad? > > Chris > > > > On Nov 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > >> We do not live in a regime where we are being pulled off the > >> streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Iranian women > >> (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed by American > >> feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't > >> gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said publicly > >> by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim world)-- > >> we (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women are > >> treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t > >> oday) are not stoned to death. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's > FREE! > > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:55:20 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A Freudian slip! Of course I meant "media", not "medea". Make of that what you will. xA On Nov 25, 2007 7:53 PM, Alison Croggon wrote: > I can quite understand Islamic women fighting for justice feeling betrayed > by the American government and medea. But I find this idea that American > feminism has "betrayed" Islamic women somewhat troubling. It may or may not > be true - I am not familiar enough with the area, and of course there are > fools in every area of study - but I would point out that Christina Hoff > Sommers lists herself as being part of the American Enterprise Institute. > And that the AEI is a well-known neocon think tank. > > http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Enterprise_Institute > http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1431 > > Among others things, they are funded by Exxon - and notoriously offered > cash to scientists to undermine a UN report on climate change > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/feb/02/frontpagenews.climatechange > > So I would suggest a little scepticism is in order, at least. I find it > hard to believe that any sensible feminist would ignore or be unmoved by > misogynistic violence in the Islam world. > > All best > > Alison > > > On Nov 24, 2007 5:05 PM, Nicholas Karavatos > wrote: > > > When I read this: "...who, by the way, feel betrayed by American > > feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't gained any > > support from..." > > > > I was reminded of this: > > > > The Subjection of Islamic Women and the fecklessness of American > > feminism. > > by Christina Hoff Sommers > > 05/21/2007, Volume 012, Issue 34 > > http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=13641 > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Karavatos > > Dept of English > > American University of Sharjah > > PO Box 26666 > > Sharjah > > United Arab Emirates > > > > > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:12 -0800 > > > From: cstroffo@EARTHLINK.NET > > > Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > A woman from Iran spoke to me recently about the abuses she and other > > > Muslim women face, and also felt betrayed that the American media > > > mentions the abuse women face in Sunni Saudi Arabia even less than > > > the abuse women face in Iran. She fears for her safety and freedom in > > > her homeland, but told me that America's talk of "World War 3" with > > > Iran is just making matters worse back home. She suggested that > > > American's selectively singling out Iran (while generally letting > > > Saudi Arabia slide) made it clear, to her, that women's rights has > > > very little to do with the assault on her country as a roque state, > > > etc., by the Bush regime. It's a complex issue, but of course her > > > voice isn't going to be heard too much in the U.S.A. American media > > > either. She's not saying that American women shouldn't support, or > > > find ways to be in solidarity, with Iranian women in this struggle. > > > But why single out Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia where the abuse is > > > just as bad? > > > Chris > > > > > > On Nov 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > > > >> We do not live in a regime where we are being pulled off the > > >> streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Iranian women > > >> (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed by American > > >> feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't > > >> gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said publicly > > >> by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim world)-- > > >> we (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women are > > >> treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t > > >> oday) are not stoned to death. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's > > FREE! > > > > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 04:04:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: defuge flarf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed defuge flarf (i use ActivePerl with the Google WSDL to construct a list from 'defuge' which is then transformed into an essay on defuge with interference and the exhaustion of interference. read on.) defuge itself, the hymen or division which draws the poem forward beyond return, the sonnet to the final couplet. rhyme materializes, and full to an end. the resulting detumescence partakes of defuge, exhaustive exactly. ... an information disorder? decathecting? has to do with defuge in relation to borderline syndrome, borderline personality 10 'amnem, troiugena, cannam fuge, defuge cannam' 33571 30 hacking with an australian derrida list, construction defuge derrida dhtml diegesis diegetic differend, the screen is a d&p=10982 of er er he peak value); a. more precise elimina he fla he fla he fla h remely fla h. ilen age of specimen and op he disadvan causing scra defuge = he exhaustion defuge, hade pith, pith pith pith, defuge exhausted, defuge jennifer drops, pith lick, strange ange, lick lick lick lick lick, ... 85 defuge set, exhaustion defuge, defuge exhausted, defuge jennifer drops, century er er he peak value); a. more precise elimina he fla he fla he fla h remely fla h. ilen age of specimen and op he disadvan causing scra defuge = information is in a state of becoming-information - always hermeneutics defuge also an information disorder? decathecting? has to do with libid- inal 22 re: n.otes information is in a state of becoming-information - always hermeneutics defuge also an information disorder? decathecting? has to do with libidinal 23 re: n.otes information is in a state of becoming- information - always hermeneutics defuge also an information disorder? decathecting? has to do with libidinal 24 trilby sorts and folds them defuge - again defuge again the - disgust the and disgust decathec- ting the resulting detumescence partakes of defuge, exhaustive exactly, the disgust and decathecting occurring, example, a pornographic novel 'gone stale' information disorder? decathecting? has to do with defuge in relation to borderline syndrome, borderline personality 30 this philosophy is the withdrawal from (not of) the emblematic; the with- drawal is a tendency towards defuge, towards discomfort and its problem- atic. decathetcted, exhausted, condition of defuge. if defuge relates to depression, then defuge relates to the real in a manner of none other, nothing else. defuge is that which is simultaneously absorbed and negated, simultaneous- ly cathected and decathected; defuge is the shame of the organism, 33 i'm sick of swallowing adulterated view, defuge is connected with the hunt as well hunt as well, with the ravishment and devouring of the other, 60 - originally posted by defuge yes, like i said i can unlock the extra pipelines. did you put in 3 sticks or 2 sticks...it might work if its just 44 why i should be killed tiffany says "you're taking it too the word itself, the hymen or division which splits: re: hymen, rhyme patterns, frames, defug- es; it is the defuge that draws the poem 45 defuge" because during that period, defuge set in; i was exhausted with jennifer and please, defuge set in; that you berated it. it's the nuclear class exhausted, condition of defuge. if defuge relates to depression, then defuge relates to the real in a manner of none other, nothing else. [18:34] yes defuge(i will signal you) [18:34] now the world of terrific signal [18:35] now you will murmur "on your own, 54 and 61 pleonast.com: wow_central you don't want/need send to defuge. that's my main character. 63 cocoon have you ever felt were writing some- thing other than what ... detumescent hir cyberspace lockdown pentium wryting defuge because during that period defuge set in i was exhausted with jennifer and julu 64 { nikuko } alan sondheim { jennifer } ravishment and devouring of the other, with propitiation. 65 flattening repetition flattening print are defuge everywhere with and are with are and print print with defuge and disturbances if disturbances defuge 75 terrific gunfire meets advancing foe; defenders retire coolly ...its not bad, take ... exhaustion of theoretical substance, decathect- ing, disinvestment. nothing splays the body; phenomenology is always already a masochism 6800 you got defuge? keep pumping the core up till you get ... defuge. 05-10-2004, 05:25 pm. ok i pushed the card a bit more and still no ... d&p=2201 3 an identity is an equivalence of one 3 desire is towards the potential of infinite manipulation 3 disinvestment is the state of defuge or refusal/deluge 3 79 d&p=42039 the result is a world of loss, but what is lost has already and permanently disappeared. defuge - with decathection comes exhaustion, enervation; the resulting detumescence partakes of exhaustive reality ... 83 the flat world i'm making here flattening repetition flattening, defuge everywhere with disturbances if disturbances defuge 84 a dead iraqi child what i told you i told you so [ yokohama pre australian message on the derrida list. construction defuge negated, simultaneously cathected and decathected; defuge is 87 l of the plasma 2 investment is characteristic of phenomena 3 disinvestment is the state of defuge or refusal/deluge 4 what is disinves- ted participates in 91 ruin do: population martin says: defuge of rem- nants? cuold di intelligences aluminum on i? battelfield says- deh is fading knowledge in every reading moment. knew says; ... 92 new dreaming i'm thinking of a broader metapsychology, one of flows/flux/spew/emission as well (my notion of 'defuge' is related to this). as far as 'taking apart,' 94 favourite p2p program - overclockers nz forums that's the puncture, isn't it? depression's thing? defuge = the flatness of the flat defuge = the flatness of the flat one of the videos compressed for 97 codework - identity is an equivalence of one 3 desire is towards the potential of infinite manipulation 3 disinvestment is the state of defuge or refusal/deluge 3 98 poetics archives -- the wavering of existence in terms of the physical exhaustion, defuge, there's nothing here to guide by stars. ... 100 ruin do: population says: ta structure over land and others? one's of it inert as ... residue, almost always you stain yourself following sleazy paths to old lurid defuge - stain earth, earth heaving - 109 { nikuko } alan sondheim { jennifer } is also a stain - heaving discomfort - refusal/deluge 3 113 the breathing _substances_ time; this is the ontology of the disappearing lather, held and suspended in phenomenologies of in- somnia, as if defuge were by consciousness, and inscription transformed smears. defuge smeared against the central desert's nilometer measuring taste, sweat, covered with grease 116 philosophy the state of defuge or refusal/deluge 4 what is disinvested misty falls - how does defuge appear in mist-form questions in mist-form 121 some sum across text 0 the world has any and none 1 an equivalence of one 3 desire is towards the potential of infinite manipulation 3 disinvestment is the state of defuge or refusal/deluge 3 122 teams - episode episode details - ascii sexuality as control structures, defuge as exhaustion and decathec- ting of desire under certain circumstances, mixed spatialities and meta- phors, 131 as if the intermediary always escaped (whereas the sublime is already constructed as infinitude) or defuge - seriously, what amounts to the sadness, ... 132 not bellmer berber anita's objects - objects can show for me. it's not boredom or tiredness. it is 'i defuge' or in passive 'i am defuged.' 133 that's the puncture, isn't it? depression's thing? dialect, 152 { nikuko } alan sondheim { jennifer } i coined the 'defuge' to reference those moments : for example when you try all my beautiful domains, defuge withdraws and decathects. knotted cords anxiously tighten goals and scripts which are higher-level processes defuge ointment because jen- nifer could 'walk the walk' and 'talk the talk ... and no thing sloshing around in the puddles, the paste broken by inscription. the wavering of existence in terms of the physical exhaus- tion, defuge, defuge, we thrust ourselves into replicate exactly one hund- red dying 187 my ghost in my machine, clara postulations, i said, give it to him, and it changed his, dark horse of sacrifice, given to the queen jen out of defuge ... 192 3 : 2 : 1 : 19 : 19 3 3 : 2 2 : 1 1 : 19 19 : 5 5 3 3 3 : 2 2 2 : 2 2 : 1 1 : 19 19 : 5 5 3 3 3 : 2 2 2 ... blank: broken writing-pad, magic slate, inviolate sheet of assertion, defuge, decathected. the edge, the stylus. fulcrum or balance for the interior. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 07:33:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Metta Sama Subject: Martinique contacts (x-listed) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, i'm proposing a winter term (a 3-work course that mixes book learning with practical learning, often some kind of service work, but not necessarily) to go and study plantation systems in Martinique. i'd like to meet up with any Martinican poets, novelists, memorists, i'd be accompanied by approximately 20 students & 2 chauffeurs. journalists, photographers, visual artists, who deal, in some way, with the continued colonization of Martinique and/or the plantation system. does anyone have any knowledge/contact of any artists there i could be in touch with? please backchannel any info. greatly (early) appreciative, Metta ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:43:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Elizabethan world was full of poets in the foreign service. Christopher Marlowe, Walter Raleigh, to name just two obvious ones. And of course Spenser wrote the Faerie Queene as propaganda more or less on the order of Queen Elizabeth to glorify her dream of world domination. So h= e as many others worked in public relations. Elizabeth changed her mind about taking on Spain after Drake took the Armada. Spenser was far from completin= g his poem and more or less committed to it. He spent the rest of his life in virtual exile on an estate in Ireland that Elizabeth =B3rewarded=B2 him with. Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:59:58 -0500 From: "Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje)" Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service I did a quick search for something along the lines of what Barry asked about, and just an Oxford UP book by Vincent Sherry called The Great War and the Language of Modernism (2003) seems tangentially to address the issue. What an interesting question, though, about modernist poets in the foreign service (I'm interested in the history of what poets have tended to do for money). And these aren't modernists, but perhaps they're part of the geneology nonetheless: Chaucer, who was some kind of foreign minister for both Richard II and Henry IV, and Thomas Wyatt, who likewise did foreign errands for Henry VIII. =3D20 ....................................................... Joanie Mackowski, PhD Assistant Professor English & Comparative Literature University of Cincinnati PO Box 210069 Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 Tel. 513/556-3207 Fax 513/556-5960 joanie.mackowski@uc.edu http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje =3D20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Ruth Lepson Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 6:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service I remember Paz saying first poets were couriers then they were diplomats now they are professors--so around Paz's time & before you will find many. a peaceful holiday time to all. On 11/21/07 10:54 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest publication > from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of the book's content > comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat for the Greek > government-in-exile during the occupation. This got me thinking about how many > modernist poets worked in the foreign service at one level or another--St. > John Perse, Octavio Paz, and Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. My > question, for the scholars out there: does there exist any significant study > of modernist poetry and the foreign service? ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:05:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: (fwd): Call for Papers: New Scholarship on the Beats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Call for Proposals by the Beat Studies Association for a panel on new scholarship on the Beats at the American Literature Association Annual Conference to be held in San Francisco, May 22-25, 2008. Proposals are requested reflecting new research or forthcoming publications on individual writers or a broader historical/cultural analysis of the Beat Generation. Send brief proposals (2-3 pages) and a brief professional biography by December 1, 2007, to Jennie Skerl, jskerl@wcupa.edu. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:09:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: sleeveless t-shirts vs. the national institutionalization of sleeveless t-shirts--response to David Chirot In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David, It's true (on all levels) that humanity basically sucks. The rarest thing in this world is a decent person. So of course there are wife beaters in this country and all else that you mention--most certainly--very scary. But wife beating is not instituionalized on a national level here/ there are no t.v. shows here on "how to beat your wife"--that doesn't mean it doesn't happen--but what it means is "group mind" "tribal mind" "groupthink" has not taken hold on that scariest of levels in that particular arena--though of course one cannot deny the U.S. suffers from it in other ways ("herd mentality" I mean--of course it does). And I never mentioned any type of "intervention" or sense of "superiority" --all countries sin most terribly--for they are made up of humans "following orders"--no exceptions... I only reported what I heard 2 Iranian women saying: THEY were asking for American feminists to help them and they were painfully frustrated by the fact that they did not receive a response-- that's all I said--I'm glad Chris brought up fact that the abuses these particular Iranian women spoke about happen throughout the Muslim world--he brought up Saudi Arabia specifically (yes, one of "our allies") and I was glad he did because I had just seen a segment on "how to beat your wife" t.v. show in Saudi Arabia. So my post was only about "awareness" (and I wrote it because I felt ashamed by what these 2 Iranian women said about American feminists failing them) I'm not going to mention that Ahmadinejad claims to be The Messiah (12th Imam) for this post is about sleeveless t-shirts and no way I'll bring up Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust because it breaks my heart how little people seem to care about this. bobbi lurie There's a common kind of man's undershirt familiarly known in America as "a wife-beater." A white, ribbed one with thin straps rather than sleeves. You see them all the time, and that really is their often affectionately pronounced sobriquet. Every 9 seconds a woman is assaulted in the USA, rape and violence against women and children is on the rise from their already astronomical rates of occurence, and if you take a look at American tv with or without cable access, one could compile a pretty incredible "teaching manual" on how to do everything from threatening and harassing a woman, young girl or female child via every known media of communication to "BTK"--"bind, torture, kill" as the MO of a particular serial killer is known by--and beyond that, into ever more precise, horrific, forensic detail on methods of degradation, humiliation, and sexual "freak ons" leading to prolonged periods of gruesome and scientifically controlled sufferings. And in many cases, it will turn out that not even the corpse is safe from further dismemberment and sexual assault. All interlarded with chirpy ads for deodorant, diets, dogfood, previews of shows with screaming headlines like "who will bomb Iran first?" "our nation is threatened by hordes of illegal aliens! act now!" "will Brittany even be allowed to see her children?" "the Private Diana as told by her sons" and "Why Torture is Necessary." Today is the Biggest Shopping Day of the Year. But that's just in stores. Right here as I write for five bucks you can go behind a dumpster with a woman, and for a good day's pay, get a motel room, some dope and a woman and try out just about everything you've seen on tv, in porno, been told about. And do you think anyone's really even going to care or do much of anything about it, in this enlightened and free land? As long as no property is damaged--no. You don't even need tv to learn this stuff---men get to learn it from their fathers, uncles, brothers, friends. "Everybody does it. Got to keep the ***** in line." Of course there is not much interest in the "internal struggles of the Iranian people." No one in America had any such interest in what the Shah did--our beloved, CIA installed Shah--to his people. Wasn't that the "Peacock Throne" or some such we bestowed on him? I remember meeting many of his former subjects who sought refuge--their bodies scarred by his torturers. The fools! They didn't believe in the "right of Royalty," even when it was a gift from a democracy! And what did we do for the Iranian people when those ungrateful ones had a Revolution? Why we got our old also American installed buddy Saddam Hussein to go to war for almost a decade with Iran, supplied with our chemical, biological weapons and massive hordes of tanks, bombs, material of all sorts and billions in funding. Millions of Iraqis and Iranians died in that war, which included the biggest tank battle ever fought, and huge Iranian casualties from bio and chemical weapons assaults, "Made in USA" . When that horrific attempt was not enough, it seems like Nukes might just be next on the menu, don't you think? And we better be quick about it!--after all we've spent 17 years now destroying Iraq--can't waste any more time, troops, trillions of debt. The landscape of Iraq and parts of Iran are so toxic from the American depleted uranium weapons used on the populaces there that cancers and new forms of diseases have been carrying out silent deadly daily warfare just as effective as bombings in their effects through time and generations. The landscapes of Afghanistan, Lebanon and Palestine have also been blessed with the contributions of American weaponry which destroys the environment as well as the human bio-chemical -nervous system. The Iranians are surrounded by nuclear powers--Israel, Russia, China, Pakistan, India. Remember when Saddam was able to attack with WMDS within 45 minutes--London? maybe the USA? And now of course Iran, despite lack of any evidence-- is the most dangerous regime on the planet. Maybe they have discovered Kryptonite! And who are our dear allies? Besides the Saudis, such other beacons of tolerance and freedom as Pakistan and Israel, along with the stray Emirate or two-- Are "dissident elements" within Iran to greet us bearing flowers the way the Iraqis were supposed to do? Do you suppose they really think we stand for liberty, equality of the sexes, the right to a free trial, the right to privacy and freedom of speech, the right to organize workers or receive universal health care? Which kinds of wife beating does anyone think the world is supposed to actually find preferable? "Ours"?--Is there really some kind of competition being held for "our" judgement on the world's tvs in this department? This is a world wide atrocity, not "theirs" alone. I realize somehow the USA unilaterally or with a few others in a "coalition of the willing" miraculously seems no longer "of this world" in terms of having to be responsable to the Conventions of Human Rights, so perhaps it's pointless to even ask these questions. Maybe what one sees and hears here (right here) everyday is really "better" than what goes on "over there." Stoning people!! How barbaric! Can't this be done the much more civilized way, the way we do it? Don't you think we should invade, murder, rape, loot, poison, starve. kidnap and detain indefinetly, torture and destroy these Evil Ones, teach them all the Right Way to Live? Introduce them to some really civilized television? Force them to read and write some "radical, experimental" poetry to "shock and awe" them into our higher state of consciousness? Make the men all wear wife-beaters? Someday hopefully the USA will remember it is part of the same planet and be interested in being an example of a real equality of women--including equal pay for equal work-- rather than the world's Number One Wife Beater, Blower-Upper, Widow Maker, Child Robber, Poisoner, Starver, Humiliator, and Dictator of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Power, Greed and Resources. For men, to be sure. Yes maybe someday it will be remembered the women of America are also on the same planet where these atrocities occur, and are also living and dying from them. ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:16:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Lisa Robertson & Tisa Bryant this Friday at Small Press Traffic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Tisa Bryant & Lisa Robertson Friday, November 30, 2007 Timken Lecture Hall 7:30 p.m. Refreshments will be served Join us! Tisa Bryant's first immersions into poetry took place in her native Boston and beloved Cambridge, MA, but we are glad to have her back in the Bay Area where, she says, "her writing found her in good company and took shape." After several years working as an admin, curator, workshop instructor, and bookstore clerk, often in the same week, she left San Francisco for Brown University, where she earned an MFA in fiction in 2004. Then she attended Naropa's Summer Writing Program as a Zora Neale Hurston fellow. She now teaches at St. John's University in Queens, NY, and lives in Brooklyn. Bryant's work, which either traverses or tramples the boundaries of genre, culture and official history, has appeared in The Believer, Chain, Curve, Hatred of Capitalism, Pom2, XCP, and in gallery exhibitions for visual artist Laylah Ali. She is the author of Tzimmes (chapbook), from A+Bend Press, and is co-editor/publisher of the snazzy new hardcover annual The Encyclopedia Project. SPT is proud to celebrate her book debut from Leon Works, Unexplained Presence. An American border official recently asked Lisa Robertson what it is like to be in limbo. In the past four years she has lived in Vancouver, San Diego, Paris, the Vienne region of France, and Berkeley. This year she is teaching at CCA. Her most recent book is The Men (Bookthug, Toronto). Limbo is hard on dogs. Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Dana Teen Lomax, Interim Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 smallpresstraffic@gmail.com http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:00:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janet Street-Porter writes in today's Independent on Sunday--I'm afraid I c= an't give a URL as thei website doesn't seem to be working for me at the mo= ment--"Hillary Clinton hasn't been afraid to speak out against the sentenci= ng of a young woman to 200 lashes in Saudi Arabia, calling it an "outrage".= ...Hillary condemned President Bush for failing to rebuke the Saudis." Most= of the piece is about how the British government "grovelled" to King Abdul= lah on his recent visit here.=0A=0AAnyway, the point is, for consertives li= ke Hoff, feminist issues are never of interest except when they can be used= to lambast Islam, never any other time. But when it comes to anything that= might affect the oil supply, our governments consider these matters trivia= l. For all of my doubts about Hillary, I'm happy that she, unlike conservat= ive politicians, is taking a stand on this.=0A=0ABy the way, Alison, I beli= eve congratulations are in order? Maybe you are about to have a government = that will take a different road than that of the US and the UK.=0A=0A----- = Original Message ----=0AFrom: Alison Croggon =0ATo: PO= ETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, 25 November, 2007 8:53:53 AM=0AS= ubject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie=0A=0AI can quite understand Islamic wom= en fighting for justice feeling betrayed=0Aby the American government and m= edea. But I find this idea that American=0Afeminism has "betrayed" Islamic = women somewhat troubling. It may or may not=0Abe true - I am not familiar e= nough with the area, and of course there are=0Afools in every area of study= - but I would point out that Christina Hoff=0ASommers lists herself as bei= ng part of the American Enterprise Institute.=0AAnd that the AEI is a well-= known neocon think tank.=0A=0Ahttp://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=3D= American_Enterprise_Institute=0Ahttp://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1431= =0A=0AAmong others things, they are funded by Exxon - and notoriously offer= ed cash=0Ato scientists to undermine a UN report on climate change=0A=0Ahtt= p://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/feb/02/frontpagenews.climatechange= =0A=0ASo I would suggest a little scepticism is in order, at least. I find = it hard=0Ato believe that any sensible feminist would ignore or be unmoved = by=0Amisogynistic violence in the Islam world.=0A=0AAll best=0A=0AAlison=0A= =0AOn Nov 24, 2007 5:05 PM, Nicholas Karavatos =0Awrote:=0A=0A> When I read this: "...who, by the way, feel betrayed by= American feminists=0A> who they have tried to gain support from but haven'= t gained any support=0A> from..."=0A>=0A> I was reminded of this:=0A>=0A> T= he Subjection of Islamic Women and the fecklessness of American feminism.= =0A> by Christina Hoff Sommers=0A> 05/21/2007, Volume 012, Issue 34=0A>=0A>= http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=3D13= 641=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> Nicholas Karavatos=0A> Dept of English=0A> American Uni= versity of Sharjah=0A> PO Box 26666=0A> Sharjah=0A> United Arab Emirates=0A= >=0A> > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:12 -0800=0A> > From: cstroffo@EARTHLIN= K.NET=0A> > Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie=0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV= .BUFFALO.EDU=0A> >=0A> > A woman from Iran spoke to me recently about the a= buses she and other=0A> > Muslim women face, and also felt betrayed that th= e American media=0A> > mentions the abuse women face in Sunni Saudi Arabia = even less than=0A> > the abuse women face in Iran. She fears for her safety= and freedom in=0A> > her homeland, but told me that America's talk of "Wor= ld War 3" with=0A> > Iran is just making matters worse back home. She sugge= sted that=0A> > American's selectively singling out Iran (while generally l= etting=0A> > Saudi Arabia slide) made it clear, to her, that women's rights= has=0A> > very little to do with the assault on her country as a roque sta= te,=0A> > etc., by the Bush regime. It's a complex issue, but of course her= =0A> > voice isn't going to be heard too much in the U.S.A. American media= =0A> > either. She's not saying that American women shouldn't support, or= =0A> > find ways to be in solidarity, with Iranian women in this struggle.= =0A> > But why single out Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia where the abuse i= s=0A> > just as bad?=0A> > Chris=0A> >=0A> > On Nov 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, B= obbie Lurie wrote:=0A> >=0A> >> We do not live in a regime where we are bei= ng pulled off the=0A> >> streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Ira= nian women=0A> >> (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed b= y American=0A> >> feminists who they have tried to gain support from but ha= ven't=0A> >> gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said pub= licly=0A> >> by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim worl= d)--=0A> >> we (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women = are=0A> >> treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t=0A= > >> oday) are not stoned to death.=0A>=0A> _______________________________= __________________________________=0A> Share life as it happens with the ne= w Windows Live.Download today it's=0A> FREE!=0A>=0A> http://www.windowslive= .com/share.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-- = =0AEditor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au=0ABlog: http://theatrenote= s.blogspot.com=0AHome page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:00:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Foreign Service" may be thought of as a shifting terrain of activities, contingent on the time period, and for whom and where to the poet is "sent on a mission" for their particular government. A diplomatic assignment to a specific mission might entail the gathering of information--cultural, political, economic, social, "under the radar" gossip and intrigue and the like. A seemingly benign series of city poems or pastorals, to the trained eye, might be a very good conveyance for some valuable strategic informations re sites, roads, types of landscapes, metereological conditions at different times of the day and seasons, the types of water way uses being employed, the distribution of police and military centers, the welfare of a populace. A writer--poet, essayist, journalist, fictioneer--witting or unwittingly may provide an excellent "foreign agent." They may even become--knowingly or unknowingly-- in espionage, disemination of propaganda, disinformations, subtle introductions of "dissident" thoughts via a "dissonant poetics" or a "black ops" plan to "find evidence" that has been planted for them to "discover" "by chance," or because they have the "poet's keen eye for detail" and the like. The foreign service poet may or not be an agent of colonialism, Orientalism, a collector of objets d'art for private collections or museums of the homeland, the benign chronicler, daily journaler, letter writer, photographer of sites and events closed to the general public, useful to those in charge of the poet's mission, or their bosses back at Centcom somewhere else in the outposts or centers of empire, of commerce, of "research and development." The notes of a poet might provide excellent information for various trading companies, an "in" on the local market, gossip and rumors about future construction projects, plans for museums and libraries which just might be a source of potential investments, incomes, informations. The poet in the Foreign Service rummaging around in the old dusty libraries and state collections might have the opportunity to substitute forged documents for originals, thereby gaining ownership of the valuable for the homeland's collections, or those private collections belonging to his "artistic circle"--, or--planting the seeds of a falsified historical "proof" to be used at some point as "evidence" in a territorial dispute. or the filing of claims demanding the return of objects of value suddenly endowed with a different chain of "provenance," pointing to citizens of one's homeland, or, again, friends via artistic/financial circles and the like. The poet consigned to some seemingly distant and humble, worthless outpost--may instead be the eyes and ears for a future greatly valued first "foot in the door" of an as yet unknown of form of industrial development, resources acquisitions, planning of a military invasion site. Or the poet may turn agent against their own country, finding the new post much more to their liking than the boring and repressive status of being a poet in the "old country." The poet may simply defect--but soon enough they are used in some manner by the new country to prove how much "better" they are than the old. (In this manner, to be sure, they are much more greatly feted in the adopted country than they were in the old. The member of another's foreign service who prefers to be "one of us" rather than "one of them"--what an endorsement!! What a sign of one's "superior culture"! --What a feather in Mussolini's Fascist hat to have the great Ezra Pound broadcasting on the radio, at work in the foreign service aspects of dissemination of propaganda to American troops.) Foreign service may also provide the poet/writer with an education regarding the injustices committed by one's country as colonizer, exploiter, destroyer of another. The poet may become a rebel, an "internationalist," a "voice against oppression" by their own and/or other countries in the area--and around the world-- to which they are assigned. And this in turn may lead to the opening of eyes vis-a-vis the country of origin. The Foreign Service as Foreign Legion: Archilocus, pioneer of the Lyric poem, of the Iambic, of the epigram, a great artist of the insult, of black humor, of satire, bastard son of an upper class father and a slave--a mercenary solidier by trade, a poet by vocation. A person with a surpassing understanding of the meanings and terms of "foreign service" while inventing new meanings and terms in poetry-- literally and literarially--a member of the "advance guard" "fighting at the forefront" "a wielder of pen and sword," so to speak, "putting his life on the line"--and in the line, of poems--and with a "basic understanding" of the "value of life and death" and the mortality/immortality of verses. Think of some of the strange birds who have been in the Foreign Service and poets--Sir Walter Raleigh, Christopher Marlowe, as part of the long British tradition of this, a great number of Latin and French poets, think of Victor Segalen, for example, with his STELES, or--Rimbaud--who stopped writing in order to live out what his writings describe in advance--the life of Foreign Service as an explorer and merchant in the employ of Empire, contributor to Geographic journals, at the confluence of spheres of influence and struggle among local war lords and leaders--Menelek, the Mahdi--and the Europeans--Italian, French and English. (The descendents of Christopher Marlowe: Conrad's Marlow in "Heart of Darkness" narrating his tale seated, shrouded in darkness and looking not unlike an Eastern idol, with his close and powerful friends in the rivers of the Thames as it opens out to the oceans of Empire--and Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe, the chivalric knight of LA, who "down these mean streets . . . must go," the "private eye" navigating among the outlaws and the official police, damsels in distress and figures of power, to return to his rooms for a solitary game of chess. In the morning papers, for both Marlowe,s no mention of their names for their "foreign" services, except to you--"hypocrite reader" of the poet's "Flowers of Evil".) The "deep cover" of the ambiguity of Foreign Service employ of poets and writers should not be overlooked. What better place to hide such an ambiguous agent than in plain site/sight/cite? The deep concern for this ambiguity of poets in/on Foreign Service is evidenced in the paranoia/real politik of the Pentagon assigned translators and Pentagon approved translations of the poetry allowed to be read by Americans and written by "enemy combattants" detained indefinetily without charge at the torture prison camp in Guantanamo. Are the words these "Foreign Servants" are writing--poems--or coded messages? Suddenly the Pentagon is finding itself in the role of Formalist Critic. One can imagine the great "anxiety of influence" at work in the consideration of these verses! How is one to determine among the New Critical "seven types of ambiguity" and/or the kinds of "complex, ambiguous" verse advocated by Charles Bernstein? This "anxiety of influence" (--of being "influenced" by sympathy, by empathy--"in spite of" the "bad poetry" by "bad people" in "bad translations'" attitude of many "authoritative" American poets and critics)--has been extended to the reception of these poems, in which the reader is encouraged to be afraid of or angry, disdainful, dismissive of these poets and their poems. The poet employed in the Foreign Service--opens the possibilities of thinking on the questions of complicity and duplicity which haunt the interrelationships of writers, readers of poetry with language itself, and of language's terms of employment, literally and literarially. In being employed in the "Foreign Service"--the relationships among poetry and the State, and States and States, State Terror and anti-State terrorisms, State Languages and anti-State Languages-- one's "native" and "foreign" languages--one's "poetic" and "public" languages--become at once more "openly revealed" and more "clandistinely concealed." And in this increasingly "high stakes" environment--physically, mentally, spiritually as one wills--one begins to encounter such aspects of language as its "confessional" nature. A "freely given" "confessional poetry"--or one extracted by means of torture or via the uses of "the interrogation of language"? And are these necessarily all that different? Is the "confession" "true"--or "saying what is wanted/demanded to be heard"? And again, what is the "truth value" of poetry employed "in the Foreign Service"? And when does "working in the Foreign Service" mean working for one's government within one's own country? Are not "dissident poets" ones consider to be working for a/some Power other than that of the interests of the State, and so in this sense "Foreign Agents"? And what is a more hideous form of the "suppression of freedom of speech and writing" in terms of poetry and Foreign Service--the banning or censorship of certain poetries and poets--or--the forcing them to speak, to write? (And once this is extracted, to alter it, mis/distranslate it, edit it in various maniuplated ways.) In a very real sense, one need not even leave one's "homeland" to be working in the employ of its "Foreign Service." And to what extent is one not working in the "Foreign Service" of one's country, State, institutions, when one is being "supported by," given grants by or having air fare and fees covered by--various State or private institutions to attend conferences in other countries? To what extent is the poet promoting an agenda which in some way is not linked to the Power of the State, the power of the State's language? Ambiguity, opacity, complexity, of language versus the "direct, transparent" forms--which one is actually more suited to the "Foreign Service" employ of the State? When do the critiques for and against the "poetry of witness" become debates on the "truth value" of "poetry" over that of the "witness" to such an extent that the question of "whose" Foreign Service one is employed by becomes an issue? To what extent does a demand for a rigorous, radical, purified Formalism evidence a strategy of "Security"? That is, a poetry which may be counted on to be on the side of (Homeland) Security, complicit with it, or at least not "resistant" to it. One may posit a poetry of Security in which the "poetry of witness" becomes a "poetry of surveillance." And a Poetry of Surveillance which becomes a method of reading "with an eye" ( a Panoptic Eye--perhaps--the reversal of the old Transparent Eyeball floating over the Green of Concord--) for any writing which is "coded" for the benefit of the anti-State terrorists on the "outside". On the one hand, a "mainstream" "official" confessional kind of poetry, in which by its very transparency and "directness" "innocence" is laid bare--and on the other, a poetry of opacity, complexity, ambiguity, which, by its insistence on a Formal "purity" from the "confessional I/eye"--becomes another form of asserting one is "telling the truth," is "innocent," because unlike the naive, "mainstream," poets one is not advocating something as "relative" as "witness," but instead the Formal "purity" of a "material" poetry, "absent" the "I". (While also maintaining the authorial status quo by being signed as "written by me, So-and-So." After all, one may get rid of "I"--but there still remain "me" and "myself". After all, how else to collect accolades, compensations, awards, positions, some form of reward or recognition? Does "anyone" "really" want to become the "no one" and "every one" of "Killroy was here"? It is one thing to write "about" the anonymous poet-prisoner's scrawls on the walls of the torture cells--but who really wants to be that poet IF THEY ARE TO REMAIN anonymous?-Use of capitals due to lack of italics--) So in thinking of poets and Foreign Service, may one not say --"yes, but a list of them are only those one 'knows about,' only those of whom there is a record and recognition of having been so employed." After all, may not language itself ask of its writers and speakers--how much do "you" think you "know" of language? How much do "you" think "you" "control" language? For example, the famous "16 words" used by Bush and Colin Powell as a "proof" for the need for the invasion and occupation of Iraq--turned out to be forged by literal "foreign agents" and in turn were informed on as forgeries by agents foreign and domestic. Yet, spoken despite all this by Colin Powell, did not millions believe them? And, born of forgery, by "writers" in the employ of Foreign services, were not the poets of Guantanamo's poems finally allowed to be produced, via torture, censorship, "neutral/neutered" translations as examples of the struggle between State Terror and terrorists of Foreign Services, between poetries of "us" and "them," between poetries of (dubious, of course) "enemy combattant" "witness" and those of "Formal Quality" from within the boundaries of "Homeland Security"? Perhaps among the reasons for so few American poets being in the American Foreign Service compared to those of many other countries, there may be the assumption that Americans poets are ALREADY in the "Foreign Service" whereever and whenever and however they travel abroad to give readings, attend conferences, keep journals, meet other nations' poets, take fotos, record by audio or video the talks and readings, homes, life styles of other poets in other lands. By the very nature of these not being censored, suppressed, debriefed, they become widely available in print, on line, via the ever more openly and legally surveilled exchanges via phones, emails, postal services and, if need be, searches considered not untoward at airports, sea ports, or of one's home, without the need for any warrants, as "a matter of routine." In such a transparency, it no longer matters if poetry is opaque or clear, complex and ambiguous or "plain and simple." All that matters is that any form of communication may be construed as "suspicious" or not, in the employ of "their" Foreign Service or "ours." And so, without need of much coercion at all, American poets may safely go about the business of being in both the Homeland Security and the Foreign Service without needing to be named, recognized or paid as such. To conclude with some lines of Archilochus: The fox knows many tricks, the hedgehog only one. A good one. On Nov 24, 2007 12:59 PM, Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje) wrote: > I did a quick search for something along the lines of what Barry asked > about, and just an Oxford UP book by Vincent Sherry called The Great War > and the Language of Modernism (2003) seems tangentially to address the > issue. What an interesting question, though, about modernist poets in > the foreign service (I'm interested in the history of what poets have > tended to do for money). And these aren't modernists, but perhaps > they're part of the geneology nonetheless: Chaucer, who was some kind > of foreign minister for both Richard II and Henry IV, and Thomas Wyatt, > who likewise did foreign errands for Henry VIII. > > ....................................................... > Joanie Mackowski, PhD > Assistant Professor > English & Comparative Literature > University of Cincinnati > PO Box 210069 > Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 > Tel. 513/556-3207 > Fax 513/556-5960 > joanie.mackowski@uc.edu > http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Ruth Lepson > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 6:20 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service > > I remember Paz saying first poets were couriers then they were diplomats > now > they are professors--so around Paz's time & before you will find many. > a peaceful holiday time to all. > > > On 11/21/07 10:54 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" > wrote: > > > I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest > publication > > from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of the book's > content > > comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat for the Greek > > government-in-exile during the occupation. This got me thinking about > how many > > modernist poets worked in the foreign service at one level or > another--St. > > John Perse, Octavio Paz, and Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. > My > > question, for the scholars out there: does there exist any significant > study > > of modernist poetry and the foreign service? > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:59:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Marsh Subject: 10th Annual Asian American Literary Awards Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Thursday, November 29, 2007, 7PM The 10th Annual Asian American Literary Awards, celebrating a decade of excellence in Asian American Literature. Congratulations to the 2007 Asian American Literary Award winners, Linh Dinh, Amitav Ghosh, and Samrat Upadhyay. Linh Dinh's award-winning book, Borderless Bodies (Factory School 2005), is available through Small Press Distribution (www.spdbooks.org) and direct from the publisher (www.factoryschool.org/pubs) as part of volume one of the Heretical Texts series. Presentation of winning books, cocktail reception, booksigning and surprise announcement of the Members' Choice Workshop Award! For winners' bios and list of Members' Choice Award finalists check www.aaww.org. @ Housing Works Bookstore 126 Crosby Street (btwn Houston and Prince Streets) New York City $12 general, $10 members, Free for students with ID Thanks to Singha Beer for sponsoring this event. For more information, visit www.aaww.org or call 212.494.0061. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:08:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: sleeveless t-shirts vs. the national institutionalization of sleeveless t-shirts--response to David Chirot In-Reply-To: <8C9FDA56DF20132-C38-182E@webmail-da17.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Present company excepted, of course. Hal "Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck." --George Carlin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 25, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > David, > It's true (on all levels) that humanity basically sucks. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:05:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: sleeveless t-shirts vs. the national institutionalization of sleeveless t-shirts--response to David Chirot In-Reply-To: <8C9FDA56DF20132-C38-182E@webmail-da17.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Every 9 seconds a woman is assaulted in the USA, That would mean 3 and a half million incidents a year, and since there are a great many repeats, probably amounts to about a third of a percent of women being victimized. Seems extremely unlikely, tho it would be nice to think the incidence that low. Where did you get your statistic? Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:13:04 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie In-Reply-To: <639945.86675.qm@web86012.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The relief, Barry, is inexpressible! On Nov 26, 2007 6:00 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > By the way, Alison, I believe congratulations are in order? Maybe you are > about to have a government that will take a different road than that of the > US and the UK. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, 25 November, 2007 8:53:53 AM > Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie > > I can quite understand Islamic women fighting for justice feeling betrayed > by the American government and medea. But I find this idea that American > feminism has "betrayed" Islamic women somewhat troubling. It may or may > not > be true - I am not familiar enough with the area, and of course there are > fools in every area of study - but I would point out that Christina Hoff > Sommers lists herself as being part of the American Enterprise Institute. > And that the AEI is a well-known neocon think tank. > > http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Enterprise_Institute > http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1431 > > Among others things, they are funded by Exxon - and notoriously offered > cash > to scientists to undermine a UN report on climate change > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/feb/02/frontpagenews.climatechange > > So I would suggest a little scepticism is in order, at least. I find it > hard > to believe that any sensible feminist would ignore or be unmoved by > misogynistic violence in the Islam world. > > All best > > Alison > > On Nov 24, 2007 5:05 PM, Nicholas Karavatos > > wrote: > > > When I read this: "...who, by the way, feel betrayed by American > feminists > > who they have tried to gain support from but haven't gained any support > > from..." > > > > I was reminded of this: > > > > The Subjection of Islamic Women and the fecklessness of American > feminism. > > by Christina Hoff Sommers > > 05/21/2007, Volume 012, Issue 34 > > > > > http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=13641 > > > > > > > > Nicholas Karavatos > > Dept of English > > American University of Sharjah > > PO Box 26666 > > Sharjah > > United Arab Emirates > > > > > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:12 -0800 > > > From: cstroffo@EARTHLINK.NET > > > Subject: Re: response to Bobbi Lurie > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > A woman from Iran spoke to me recently about the abuses she and other > > > Muslim women face, and also felt betrayed that the American media > > > mentions the abuse women face in Sunni Saudi Arabia even less than > > > the abuse women face in Iran. She fears for her safety and freedom in > > > her homeland, but told me that America's talk of "World War 3" with > > > Iran is just making matters worse back home. She suggested that > > > American's selectively singling out Iran (while generally letting > > > Saudi Arabia slide) made it clear, to her, that women's rights has > > > very little to do with the assault on her country as a roque state, > > > etc., by the Bush regime. It's a complex issue, but of course her > > > voice isn't going to be heard too much in the U.S.A. American media > > > either. She's not saying that American women shouldn't support, or > > > find ways to be in solidarity, with Iranian women in this struggle. > > > But why single out Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia where the abuse is > > > just as bad? > > > Chris > > > > > > On Nov 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Bobbie Lurie wrote: > > > > > >> We do not live in a regime where we are being pulled off the > > >> streets for not dressing correctly (I refer to Iranian women > > >> (specifically right now) who, by the way, feel betrayed by American > > >> feminists who they have tried to gain support from but haven't > > >> gained any support from--I mean, very little has been said publicly > > >> by American feminists re: abuses women face in the Muslim world)-- > > >> we (I have to speak for women now because I feel the way women are > > >> treated in the Muslim world is key to all that is happening t > > >> oday) are not stoned to death. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's > > FREE! > > > > > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:23:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: a response for bobbie (checking sources) In-Reply-To: <8C9FBFA98594E8C-BB4-4A16@WEBMAIL-DF04.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Bobbie: i was talking last night on the phone with my mother about the need to be c= ontinually checking on the provenance of sources which one finds--in any me= dia-- the literature on this need is growing continually--as there is a huge amou= nt of "information" available which has to be traced back to its sources in= order to have an idea how accurate it is, it even true at all--as well as= all the "grey areas" of distortion, selectivity, dis/mistranslations, edit= s, omissions, "echo chamber effects" and the like-- i was happy to find alison croggin's post regarding this today as it is an = example of how research into the background of "signs taken for wonders" a= s Karl Marx called such things, may often be found to be "too good to be t= rue"-- i went and looked up the sites you listed here, and they all turn out to be= of a dubious nature in one way or another-- the original source turns out to be MEMRI TV-- if you check for example the wikipedia entry on MEMRI--this is an organizat= ion which has been widely criticized and questioned by persons in many coun= tries--as to the integrity of their information in all facets of media-- as in any period of war, one needs to be aware of how much propaganda, fear= and hate mongering, distortions, lies, becomes the norm-- there are billions beyond billions of dollars, not to mention euros and yua= n and yen--at stake in these conflicts--in order to ensure that the support= of populations is there for the huge corporations and interests, industrie= s which profit from the war machines, it is necessary that as many persons = as possible believe the most damning lies about other populations whether i= t is in terms of religion,ideology, ethnicity, culture or that all embracin= g term "way of life"--"the clash of civilizations"--"barbarism and civiliza= tion"--such fundamentalist views are required to make persons blind deaf an= d dumb in regarding the being of other beings as anything but "the enemy," = "the personification of evil"-- the idea is that one will no longer see the other as something worth more t= han extermination--as much as possible-- so the images, sounds, texts one is shown are those which are designed to s= how such others in the worst possible light-- which is the way that the actions of MEMRI are seen to be created and funct= ioning by its critics-- in the film Blue Collar (with Richard Pryor, Harvey Keitel, Yaphet Kotto am= ong others)--there is a character who explains that power functions by sett= ing people against each other--the rich against the poor, the Black against= the White, the old against the young--even the Union can be made to turn o= n Union members--(the film was made before Reagan began to break the unions= with his firing of all the air controllers)-- become a tool of those agai= nst unions--anything to destroy the idea of unity, solidarity--among person= s in the face of power and profit-- > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:13:53 -0500 > From: bobbilurie@AOL.COM > Subject: wife beating t.v. show in Saudi Arabia and more... > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > To Chris and others, >=20 > Here are links to wife beating show in Saudi Arabia that I wrote about in= previous post: >=20 > http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/november07/how-to= -beat-your-wife.htm >=20 > http://www.videosift.com/video/How-to-Beat-Your-Wife-According-to-Allah >=20 > http://discardedlies.com/entry/?35492_beat-your-wife >=20 > http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3D319_1178356324&c=3D1 >=20 > Bobbi Lurie > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - h= ttp://mail.aol.com _________________________________________________________________ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.=A0 Join i= n. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Erin Moure Handout for Transparency Machine Event Now Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poet and translator Erin Moure will give a free public reading - and talk=20 about poetry - as a Transparency Machine Event, Wednesday 28 November,=20 1:30 - 3:00 P.M., in the Katzman Lounge of Vanier Hall, University of=20 Windsor, Windsor, Ontario. The Transparency Machine Event Series invites a poet to discuss his or her = work in the context of other texts selected and made available in advance=20 by the poet. Moure's texts are now available online and for download at=20 News & Events: . Er=EDn Moure is a poet and a translator of French, Spanish, Galician, and=20 Portuguese. Winner of the Governor General's Award for Furious(Anansi,=20 1992) and the Pat Lowther Memorial Award for Domestic Fuel (Anansi, 1985), = she has published twelve books of poetry, including A Frame of the Book=20 (Sun & Moon, 2000), and three books of poetry in translation, including=20 Sheep's Vigil by a Fervent Person (Anansi, 2002), shortlisted for the 2002 = Griffin Poetry Prize and the 2002 City of Toronto Book Prize. Her latest=20 book of poetry, O Cadoiro (Anansi, 2007) explores "archive, rhythm,=20 address, and the mystery and wound of authorship itself" (Anansi Press). The Transparency Machine Event Series provides a forum for discussing the=20 practice and theory of writing and reading poetry - including practices=20 and theories of prefixing poetry ("anti-"; "non-"), adjectivizing poetry=20 ("poetic"), and capitalizing poetry (first letter; letters at random).=20 Poetry prismatically refracts social, political, scientific, aesthetic=20 languages, transforming them into something exciting and strange. How does = poetic form do that? This series explores questions about the language of=20 poetry, offering readers and writers a multi-dimensional experience of the = shapes and sounds of contemporary poetry by inviting leading and emerging=20 innovative practitioners of the art. This event is sponsored by The Canada Council for the Arts and by The=20 University of Windsor English Department, with additional support from Dr. = Stephen Pender, Research Leadership Chair, Faculty of Arts and Social=20 Sciences. For further information, please contact Louis Cabri, lcabri@uwindsor.ca. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:03:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Get Yer Hair Did In-Reply-To: <818a2baf0711230900x701873f0je3cf7917239b71d2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit @ MiPOesias -- > http://www.amyking.org/blog/ --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:18:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN, by Dave Black MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN by Dave Black Skyhorse Publishing, 2007 $12.95 Have you seen this book? It's a comprehensive guide to surviving disasters such as nuclear bombs, terrorist attacks and civil unrest, and it's in all the chain bookstores these days, shelved under HOME REFERENCE, right next to Martha Stewart's books on how to make bird feeders and the perfect door knocker from old broom handles. There's a "small arms primer" section where Black informs us, "Experts pretty much agree that 9 mm is as small as you should go, and anything larger than a .38 Special or .357 Magnum is too big. Other considerations to make are price, your physical size, and hand strength. Revolvers are safer than semi-automatics, but semi-automatics are quicker to load and easier to conceal." Having grown up in a family where every man, woman and child learns how to shoot pistols, rifles and shotguns, and uses them on a regular basis, I'm not unfamiliar with the language, just no longer comfortable with it. In fact I am the only living member of my family to NOT own a gun, which freaks some of my family out, saying they worry about me, gunless. He has a "body armor" section where he tells us, "Body armor has changed over the decades to the point where now it's possible to get reasonable protection in a vest made from soft woven fibers. This 'soft armor' is more tailored than traditional armor, making it easy to conceal and comfortable to wear." Black also covers how to survive a shipwreck, nuclear emergency, tornado, earthquake and other cheerful outcomes for your day. There's no doubt that this man knows his stuff! He knows how to purify water, treat wounds, turn a bucket into a sanitary latrine, and trust me when I say SO MUCH more! I LOVE this world, I really, seriously do! HOWEVER, if there's ONE THING this book has made me aware of is that I'm entirely TOO LAZY for Armageddon! JUST reading the preparations in this book exhausts me! GEESH! FORGET IT! When I hear the apocalypse approaching I'm going to take my favorite candy bar blender drink (a little EXTRA vodka!) out to the curb, put 4 cigarettes in my mouth and wait for the approaching wall of fire to light them for me! Frankly I'm not afraid of dying, but I'm also not interested in living in a world with no libraries and bookstores and strawberry ice cream. Fuck it. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:38:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN, by Dave Black In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On the other hand, suppose a decent number of libraries survive. The world, post Apocalypse, could be an austere paradise. I love survivalist lit. But I'm not the healthiest kid on the block. CA Conrad wrote: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN by Dave Black Skyhorse Publishing, 2007 $12.95 Have you seen this book? It's a comprehensive guide to surviving disasters such as nuclear bombs, terrorist attacks and civil unrest, and it's in all the chain bookstores these days, shelved under HOME REFERENCE, right next to Martha Stewart's books on how to make bird feeders and the perfect door knocker from old broom handles. There's a "small arms primer" section where Black informs us, "Experts pretty much agree that 9 mm is as small as you should go, and anything larger than a .38 Special or .357 Magnum is too big. Other considerations to make are price, your physical size, and hand strength. Revolvers are safer than semi-automatics, but semi-automatics are quicker to load and easier to conceal." Having grown up in a family where every man, woman and child learns how to shoot pistols, rifles and shotguns, and uses them on a regular basis, I'm not unfamiliar with the language, just no longer comfortable with it. In fact I am the only living member of my family to NOT own a gun, which freaks some of my family out, saying they worry about me, gunless. He has a "body armor" section where he tells us, "Body armor has changed over the decades to the point where now it's possible to get reasonable protection in a vest made from soft woven fibers. This 'soft armor' is more tailored than traditional armor, making it easy to conceal and comfortable to wear." Black also covers how to survive a shipwreck, nuclear emergency, tornado, earthquake and other cheerful outcomes for your day. There's no doubt that this man knows his stuff! He knows how to purify water, treat wounds, turn a bucket into a sanitary latrine, and trust me when I say SO MUCH more! I LOVE this world, I really, seriously do! HOWEVER, if there's ONE THING this book has made me aware of is that I'm entirely TOO LAZY for Armageddon! JUST reading the preparations in this book exhausts me! GEESH! FORGET IT! When I hear the apocalypse approaching I'm going to take my favorite candy bar blender drink (a little EXTRA vodka!) out to the curb, put 4 cigarettes in my mouth and wait for the approaching wall of fire to light them for me! Frankly I'm not afraid of dying, but I'm also not interested in living in a world with no libraries and bookstores and strawberry ice cream. Fuck it. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:32:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Burning Word V MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anne Waldman headlines Burning Word 2008 poetry festiva= l =0A=0AWHIDBEY ISLAND-The Washington Poets Association today announce= d headliners for the 2008 Burning Word festival to be held April 26, 2008 = on Whidbey Island. =0A=0A =0A=0ALeading the program will be Anne Waldma= n, co-founder of the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Colorad= o's Naropa University, a noted performer, teacher and author of more than = 40 books and small-press editions of poetry. =0A=0A =0A=0A =E2=80=9CAnne = Waldman represents three of the most important strains of post-World War II= - New American poetry, the New York School and the Beat movement,=E2=80=9D= said Paul Nelson, president of the Washington Poets Association. =E2=80= =9CWe believe Northwest poets and readers will agree that we're very fortun= ate to feature Waldman at the 2008 Burning Word festival.=E2=80=9D =0A=0A= =0A=0A Joining Waldman as headliners will be Cuban-born poet Jos=C3=A9 Koz= er; Canadian poet, essayist and professor Lionel Kearns; and poet, filmma= ker, translator and poetry editor Mark Weiss of New York City. =0A=0A=0A=0A= =0AKozer is one of the lights of the neobarroco movement in Latin American = poetry and the leading Cuban poet of his generation. His work has been tra= nslated into numerous languages and studied in many university literature = programs. His book No Buscan Reflejarse (2001) was the first poetry collec= tion by a living Cuban exile to be published in Havana. =0A=0A =0A=0ALio= nel Kearns's work ranges from the traditional to experimental and screen-ba= sed forms of poetry. A professor at British Columbia's Simon Fraser Univer= sity, Kearns was the original writer-in-electronic-residence in the Wired = Writers Project in Canadian schools. =0A=0A =0A=0AOf poetry, Kearns sai= d, =E2=80=9CThere has to be something compelling there, something unique, s= omething useful. That is the challenge. That is what we poets try to do, tr= icking language into patterns so memorable that they stay with you forever.= =E2=80=9D =0A=0A =0A=0A=0AMark Weiss has wide-ranging creative interests= , combining poetry, filmmaking and social sciences. He has founded and dir= ected many poetry series in New York City and founded Junction Press. Weiss= is a respected editor and translator of poetry, working with Jos=C3=A9 Ko= zer. Weiss' anthology, The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry, is = forthcoming in 2009 from University of California Press. He lives at the ed= ge of Manhattan's only forest. =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=E2=80=9COur headliners r= epresent the wonderfully diverse world of poetry-in genre, culture and styl= e,=E2=80=9D said Burning Word Director Sue Ellen White. =E2=80=9CWe are co= ntinuing to build that diversity as we seek nominations of regional and lo= cal poets to share billing with our exciting headline poets.=E2=80=9D =0A= =0A The Burning Word poetry festival has had a successful four-year hist= ory at Whidbey's scenic Greenbank Farm and has built a reputation as a vib= rant festival representing the wide range of poetic interests in the Northw= est. =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=E2=80=9CBurning Word has shown increased attendance = every year and in 2008 we expect a large crowd to experience Anne Waldman,= who is known for her dynamic performances and commitment to social justice= ,=E2=80=9D said Nelson. =0A=0A =0A=0A=0ABurning Word invites people to nom= inate poets and to volunteer to be part of the festival production. =0A=0A = For more information: =0A=0A=0AVisit the Burning Word web site. =0A= =0A =0A=0A=0APaul E. Nelson, M.A. =0A=0Ahttp://www.WashingtonPoets.org=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:21:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: S=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F8ren?= Pold's article on the work of Christophe Bruno MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Here is an excellent article on the work of Paris's Christophe Bruno: http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/electropoetics/textualized This is the first thing i've read about Christophe's work. It's really exciting that it is such a good article. It isn't boring. Which is exceptional concerning writing about digital literature or perhaps anything. Christophe does truly intelligent, innovative, sparkling work. Finally an article that is up to his work. Congrats to Lori Emerson for being the editor and especially Søren Pold for being the author of the article. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:23:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline David, This opens up the question of "foreignness" and "service," "loyalty" and "betrayal" in a brilliant way, and, also, it reconnects language, it seems to me, to its central place in the culture. Poetic styles or the jobs the poets take or the techniques they use to generate language ("how to proceed in poetry") -dreams or computer processes or "forgeries" or "translations"- are not innocent acts. They are integral acts related to the place of language -its "producer" and "consumer- in the culture. Newspapers refer to The White House as the "consumer" of intelligence. As fascism grows, the state becomes a producer of transparent fiction -full of "act/security." For instance, aren't Shakespeare's early history plays -with the possible exception of Julius Caesar- creations myths of the Elizabethan State? On the other hand, Hamlet, and Macbeth, are about regicides, two sides of the coin. Hamlet is the poet, meandering, incoherent/opaque, cruel in relation to others, obsessively involved in process as a means towards conscience and clarity. Are the soliloquies confessions or moments of absolute solitude? The acts the poet Hamlet is capable of is process towards conscience/consciousness -a producer of play within the play, in its subversion an ethical mouse-trap. On the other hand, Macbeth is pure act, as Lady Macbeth urges, a slayer of conscience, therefore, also a slayer of sleep, melancholy (full of eyes), ever watchful of oneself and others, condemned to be a warden of a panopticon, the king of its petty routine. Fascism is a state without a conscience. Bresson withdrew words into film diagrams crossed by eyes by windows by white walls attract words oh, cruel cruel lover! Ciao, Murat On Nov 25, 2007 2:00 PM, David Chirot wrote: > "Foreign Service" may be thought of as a shifting terrain of > activities, contingent on the time period, and for whom and where to > the poet is "sent on a mission" for their particular government. A > diplomatic assignment to a specific mission might entail the gathering > of information--cultural, political, economic, social, "under the > radar" gossip and intrigue and the like. A seemingly benign series of > city poems or pastorals, to the trained eye, might be a very good > conveyance for some valuable strategic informations re sites, roads, > types of landscapes, metereological conditions at different times of > the day and seasons, the types of water way uses being employed, the > distribution of police and military centers, the welfare of a > populace. A writer--poet, essayist, journalist, fictioneer--witting > or unwittingly may provide an excellent "foreign agent." They may > even become--knowingly or unknowingly-- in espionage, disemination of > propaganda, disinformations, subtle introductions of "dissident" > thoughts via a "dissonant poetics" or a "black ops" plan to "find > evidence" that has been planted for them to "discover" "by chance," or > because they have the "poet's keen eye for detail" and the like. > > The foreign service poet may or not be an agent of colonialism, > Orientalism, a collector of objets d'art for private collections or > museums of the homeland, the benign chronicler, daily journaler, > letter writer, photographer of sites and events closed to the general > public, useful to those in charge of the poet's mission, or their > bosses back at Centcom somewhere else in the outposts or centers of > empire, of commerce, of "research and development." The notes of a > poet might provide excellent information for various trading > companies, an "in" on the local market, gossip and rumors about future > construction projects, plans for museums and libraries which just > might be a source of potential investments, incomes, informations. > > > > The poet in the Foreign Service rummaging around in the old dusty > libraries and state collections might have the opportunity to > substitute forged documents for originals, thereby gaining ownership > of the valuable for the homeland's collections, or those private > collections belonging to his "artistic circle"--, or--planting the > seeds of a falsified historical "proof" to be used at some point as > "evidence" in a territorial dispute. or the filing of claims demanding > the return of objects of value suddenly endowed with a different chain > of "provenance," pointing to citizens of one's homeland, or, again, > friends via artistic/financial circles and the like. > > The poet consigned to some seemingly distant and humble, > worthless outpost--may instead be the eyes and ears for a future > greatly valued first "foot in the door" of an as yet unknown of form > of industrial development, resources acquisitions, planning of a > military invasion site. > > Or the poet may turn agent against their own country, finding the > new post much more to their liking than the boring and repressive > status of being a poet in the "old country." The poet may simply > defect--but soon enough they are used in some manner by the new > country to prove how much "better" they are than the old. > > (In this manner, to be sure, they are much more greatly feted > in the adopted country than they were in the old. The member of > another's foreign service who prefers to be "one of us" rather than > "one of them"--what an endorsement!! What a sign of one's "superior > culture"! > --What a feather in Mussolini's Fascist hat to have the great Ezra > Pound broadcasting on the radio, at work in the foreign service > aspects of dissemination of propaganda to American troops.) > > Foreign service may also provide the poet/writer with an > education regarding the injustices committed by one's country as > colonizer, exploiter, destroyer of another. The poet may become a > rebel, an "internationalist," a "voice against oppression" by their > own and/or other countries in the area--and around the world-- to > which they are assigned. And this in turn may lead to the opening of > eyes vis-a-vis the country of origin. > > The Foreign Service as Foreign Legion: Archilocus, pioneer of > the Lyric poem, of the Iambic, of the epigram, a great artist of the > insult, of black humor, of satire, bastard son of an upper class > father and a slave--a mercenary solidier by trade, a poet by vocation. > A person with a surpassing understanding of the meanings and terms of > "foreign service" while inventing new meanings and terms in poetry-- > literally and literarially--a member of the "advance guard" "fighting > at the forefront" "a wielder of pen and sword," so to speak, "putting > his life on the line"--and in the line, of poems--and with a "basic > understanding" of the "value of life and death" and the > mortality/immortality of verses. > > Think of some of the strange birds who have been in the Foreign > Service and poets--Sir Walter Raleigh, Christopher Marlowe, as part of > the long British tradition of this, a great number of Latin and > French poets, think of Victor Segalen, for example, with his STELES, > or--Rimbaud--who stopped writing in order to live out what his > writings describe in advance--the life of Foreign Service as an > explorer and merchant in the employ of Empire, contributor to > Geographic journals, at the confluence of spheres of influence and > struggle among local war lords and leaders--Menelek, the Mahdi--and > the Europeans--Italian, French and English. > > (The descendents of Christopher Marlowe: Conrad's Marlow in "Heart of > Darkness" narrating his tale seated, shrouded in darkness and looking > not unlike an Eastern idol, with his close and powerful friends in > the rivers of the Thames as it opens out to the oceans of Empire--and > Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe, the chivalric knight of LA, who > "down these mean streets . . . must go," the "private eye" navigating > among the outlaws and the official police, damsels in distress and > figures of power, to return to his rooms for a solitary game of chess. > In the morning papers, for both Marlowe,s no mention of their names > for their "foreign" services, except to you--"hypocrite reader" of the > poet's "Flowers of Evil".) > > > The "deep cover" of the ambiguity of Foreign Service employ of > poets and writers should not be overlooked. What better place to hide > such an ambiguous agent than in plain site/sight/cite? > > The deep concern for this ambiguity of poets in/on Foreign > Service is evidenced in the paranoia/real politik of the Pentagon > assigned translators and Pentagon approved translations of the poetry > allowed to be read by Americans and written by "enemy combattants" > detained indefinetily without charge at the torture prison camp in > Guantanamo. Are the words these "Foreign Servants" are > writing--poems--or coded messages? > > Suddenly the Pentagon is finding itself in the role of > Formalist Critic. One can imagine the great "anxiety of influence" at > work in the consideration of these verses! How is one to determine > among the New Critical "seven types of ambiguity" and/or the kinds of > "complex, ambiguous" verse advocated by Charles Bernstein? > > This "anxiety of influence" (--of being "influenced" by > sympathy, by empathy--"in spite of" the "bad poetry" by "bad people" > in "bad translations'" attitude of many "authoritative" American poets > and critics)--has been extended to the reception of these poems, in > which the reader is encouraged to be afraid of or angry, disdainful, > dismissive of these poets and their poems. > > The poet employed in the Foreign Service--opens the > possibilities of thinking on the questions of complicity and duplicity > which haunt the interrelationships of writers, readers of poetry with > language itself, and of language's terms of employment, literally and > literarially. > > In being employed in the "Foreign Service"--the relationships among > poetry and the State, and States and States, State Terror and > anti-State terrorisms, State Languages and anti-State Languages-- > one's "native" and "foreign" languages--one's "poetic" and "public" > languages--become at once more "openly revealed" and more > "clandistinely concealed." > > And in this increasingly "high stakes" environment--physically, > mentally, spiritually as one wills--one begins to encounter such > aspects of language as its "confessional" nature. A "freely given" > "confessional poetry"--or one extracted by means of torture or via the > uses of "the interrogation of language"? And are these necessarily > all that different? Is the "confession" "true"--or "saying what is > wanted/demanded to be heard"? > And again, what is the "truth value" of poetry employed "in the > Foreign Service"? And when does "working in the Foreign Service" mean > working for one's government within one's own country? Are not > "dissident poets" ones consider to be working for a/some Power other > than that of the interests of the State, and so in this sense "Foreign > Agents"? > > And what is a more hideous form of the "suppression of freedom of > speech and writing" in terms of poetry and Foreign Service--the > banning or censorship of certain poetries and poets--or--the forcing > them to speak, to write? (And once this is extracted, to alter it, > mis/distranslate it, edit it in various maniuplated ways.) > > In a very real sense, one need not even leave one's "homeland" to > be working in the employ of its "Foreign Service." > > And to what extent is one not working in the "Foreign Service" > of one's country, State, institutions, when one is being "supported > by," given grants by or having air fare and fees covered by--various > State or private institutions to attend conferences in other > countries? To what extent is the poet promoting an agenda which in > some way is not linked to the Power of the State, the power of the > State's language? > > Ambiguity, opacity, complexity, of language versus the "direct, > transparent" forms--which one is actually more suited to the "Foreign > Service" employ of the State? When do the critiques for and against > the "poetry of witness" become debates on the "truth value" of > "poetry" over that of the "witness" to such an extent that the > question of "whose" Foreign Service one is employed by becomes an > issue? To what extent does a demand for a rigorous, radical, purified > Formalism evidence a strategy of "Security"? That is, a poetry which > may be counted on to be on the side of (Homeland) Security, complicit > with it, or at least not "resistant" to it. > One may posit a poetry of Security in which the "poetry of > witness" becomes a "poetry of surveillance." And a Poetry of > Surveillance which becomes a method of reading "with an eye" ( a > Panoptic Eye--perhaps--the reversal of the old Transparent Eyeball > floating over the Green of Concord--) for any writing which is > "coded" for the benefit of the anti-State terrorists on the "outside". > On the one hand, a "mainstream" "official" confessional kind of > poetry, in which by its very transparency and "directness" "innocence" > is laid bare--and on the other, a poetry of opacity, complexity, > ambiguity, which, by its insistence on a Formal "purity" from the > "confessional I/eye"--becomes another form of asserting one is > "telling the truth," is "innocent," because unlike the naive, > "mainstream," poets one is not advocating something as "relative" as > "witness," but instead the Formal "purity" of a "material" poetry, > "absent" the "I". > (While also maintaining the authorial status quo by being signed > as "written by me, > So-and-So." After all, one may get rid of "I"--but there still > remain "me" and "myself". After all, how else to collect accolades, > compensations, awards, positions, some form of reward or recognition? > Does "anyone" "really" want to become the "no one" and "every one" of > "Killroy was here"? It is one thing to write "about" the anonymous > poet-prisoner's scrawls on the walls of the torture cells--but who > really wants to be that poet IF THEY ARE TO REMAIN anonymous?-Use of > capitals due to lack of italics--) > > So in thinking of poets and Foreign Service, may one not say > --"yes, but a list of them are only those one 'knows about,' only > those of whom there is a record and recognition of having been so > employed." > > After all, may not language itself ask of its writers and > speakers--how much do "you" think you "know" of language? How much do > "you" think "you" "control" language? > > For example, the famous "16 words" used by Bush and Colin Powell > as a "proof" for the need for the invasion and occupation of > Iraq--turned out to be forged by literal "foreign agents" and in turn > were informed on as forgeries by agents foreign and domestic. Yet, > spoken despite all this by Colin Powell, did not millions believe > them? > > And, born of forgery, by "writers" in the employ of Foreign > services, were not the poets of Guantanamo's poems finally allowed to > be produced, via torture, censorship, "neutral/neutered" translations > as examples of the struggle between State Terror and terrorists of > Foreign Services, between poetries of "us" and "them," between > poetries of (dubious, of course) "enemy combattant" "witness" and > those of "Formal Quality" from within the boundaries of "Homeland > Security"? > > Perhaps among the reasons for so few American poets being in the > American Foreign Service compared to those of many other countries, > there may be the assumption that Americans poets are ALREADY in the > "Foreign Service" whereever and whenever and however they travel > abroad to give readings, attend conferences, keep journals, meet other > nations' poets, take fotos, record by audio or video the talks and > readings, homes, life styles of other poets in other lands. By the > very nature of these not being censored, suppressed, debriefed, they > become widely available in print, on line, via the ever more openly > and legally surveilled exchanges via phones, emails, postal services > and, if need be, searches considered not untoward at airports, sea > ports, or of one's home, without the need for any warrants, as "a > matter of routine." > In such a transparency, it no longer matters if poetry is opaque > or clear, complex and ambiguous or "plain and simple." All that > matters is that any form of communication may be construed as > "suspicious" or not, in the employ of "their" Foreign Service or > "ours." > And so, without need of much coercion at all, American poets may > safely go about the business of being in both the Homeland Security > and the Foreign Service without needing to be named, recognized or > paid as such. > > To conclude with some lines of Archilochus: > > The fox knows many tricks, > the hedgehog only one. > A good one. > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 24, 2007 12:59 PM, Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje) > wrote: > > I did a quick search for something along the lines of what Barry asked > > about, and just an Oxford UP book by Vincent Sherry called The Great War > > and the Language of Modernism (2003) seems tangentially to address the > > issue. What an interesting question, though, about modernist poets in > > the foreign service (I'm interested in the history of what poets have > > tended to do for money). And these aren't modernists, but perhaps > > they're part of the geneology nonetheless: Chaucer, who was some kind > > of foreign minister for both Richard II and Henry IV, and Thomas Wyatt, > > who likewise did foreign errands for Henry VIII. > > > > ....................................................... > > Joanie Mackowski, PhD > > Assistant Professor > > English & Comparative Literature > > University of Cincinnati > > PO Box 210069 > > Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 > > Tel. 513/556-3207 > > Fax 513/556-5960 > > joanie.mackowski@uc.edu > > http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Ruth Lepson > > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 6:20 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service > > > > I remember Paz saying first poets were couriers then they were diplomats > > now > > they are professors--so around Paz's time & before you will find many. > > a peaceful holiday time to all. > > > > > > On 11/21/07 10:54 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" > > wrote: > > > > > I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest > > publication > > > from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of the book's > > content > > > comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat for the Greek > > > government-in-exile during the occupation. This got me thinking about > > how many > > > modernist poets worked in the foreign service at one level or > > another--St. > > > John Perse, Octavio Paz, and Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. > > My > > > question, for the scholars out there: does there exist any significant > > study > > > of modernist poetry and the foreign service? > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:20:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: the backwardS Spear of poetry - new from ebr Comments: To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sso --- the strange baSics of writted language Why the letter "S"? It looks NOT like the mouth when the mouth makes "S" Sure, serpants slither sinuous-like --- but that's Enguish, not Phoenician or Latin ("sssss" could be Y or W) Stuck, we are, with the arbitrarinesss --- the backwardS Spear of poetry ebr www.electronicbookreview.com invites you to swing with the new gathering of 19 esssays on the new poetry in the electropoetics thread asssembled by Lori Emerson http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/electropoetics/dispersed essays that relish the "thingness" of language across media essays that work with us to renegotiate the boundaries of what counts as poetry essays that experiment with how to engage with new poetry in humanities research SSSEE ALSO Stephanie Strickland's & Cynthia Lawson Jaramillo's "Dovetailing Detials Fly Apart" a freestanding, freewheeling essay enfolded into ebr http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/enfolded/dovetailing Ssweet! --- Lori Emerson's electropoetics gathering includes: Introduction: ceci n'est pas un texte Lori Emerson introduces a gathering of nineteen electro-poetic essays. This gathering brings together both critics and creators of electronic poetry; as is usually the case in ebr, the 'electronic' does not exclude, but helps us to reconfigure and revalue poetic works in print as well as define what works in digital environments. Biopoetics; or, a Pilot Plan for a Concrete Poetry Eugene Thacker resituates the work of Eduardo Kac, not as art applied to the life sciences, but as a form of bio-poetics, consistent with the electro-poetics that has been a longtime focus of critical writing in ebr. Rather than reduce the work to its material (in life-forms, or in text, or in code), Thacker identifies ways that language, form, and life intersect in works of bio-art. Speed the Movie or Speed the Brand Name or Aren't You the Kind that Tells: My Sentimental Journey through Future Shock and Present Static Electricity. Version 19.84 Charles Bernstein. Keyword: speed. Speed as a morally coded concept. Speed as success. An ethics of speed. Speed-reading. Virtual reading. Cultural speed-up. Speed kills. The Database, the Interface, and the Hypertext: A Reading of Strickland's V Reading Stephanie Strickland's V: Losing L'una/WaveSon.nets/Vniverse, Jaishree Odin explores the implications of the paradigm shift from modernity to postmodernity for our understanding of reading, writing and living. Robert Creeley's Radical Poetics Marjorie Perloff reflects on the legacy of misreadings of Robert Creeley's work and argues that his complex poetics should be read transnationally. An Inside and an Outside In his review of two of Robert Creeley's last published books, Douglas Manson urges us to read these late poems as sending ideas outward, toward an "outside," so that we begin gathering in tomes, searching for quotes. Perloff on Pedagogical Process: Reading as Learning Douglas Barbour reads Marjorie Perloff's Differentials: Poetry, Poetics, Pedagogy as a notable addition to her oeuvre, another grab-bag of pertinent, impertinent, and always provocative readings of both a wide range of works and some of the social/cultural contexts in which we read them. Literature from Page to Interface: The Treatments of Text in Christophe Bruno's Iterature S=F8ren Pold explores the ways in which Christophe Bruno's Iterature expands the notion of literary form and shows what happens when words are no longer only part of a language. How to Think (with) Thinkertoys: Electronic Literature Collection, Volume 1 Adalaide Morris considers 'tutor texts' in the Electronic Literature Collection and, in doing so, articulates a poetics for the emerging field of e-lit. Instead of fulfilling Ted Nelson's dream of 'computer lib,' the most compelling entries in the Collection emphasize the continuing necessity of writing under constraint. When the revolution turns out to be, not a liberation from a culture of control but its transformation, practices long familiar to experimental poets in print become generalized throughout new media and their panoply of 'thinkertoys.' Letters That Matter: The Electronic Literature Collection Volume 1 John Zuern considers the significance of the first volume of ELO's Electronic Literature Collection for the future of electronic arts. Electronic Literature circa WWW (and Before) Chris Funkhouser reads the Electronic Literature Collection Vol. 1 as a crucial document, an effective reflection of literary expression and areas of textual exploration in digital form. Eshleman's Caves: a review of JUNIPER FUSE For Jay Murphy, Clayton Eshleman in his JUNIPER FUSE makes a resounding case for lived experience, for the tortuous growth, however partial or fragmented, as rooted in self-suffering as modes of vision and dream. The Linguistic Cartography of Toilets and Ginger Ale For Angela Szczepaniak, Canadian poet Stephen Cain visually distorts language by blurring the borders of poetic language and national identity, which are often assumed to be much more clear and distinct than they actually are. Three from The Gig: New Work By/About Maggie O'Sullivan, Allan Fisher, and Tom Raworth Three recent poetry publications by Nate Dorward's press The Gig are reviewed by Greg Betts; these are not poems so much as environments outside of, perhaps astride, the contingencies of systems. Soft Links of Innovative Narrative in North America The collection of innovative writing Biting the Error: Writers Explore Narrative is, for Janet Neigh, also a refreshing example of innovation of the anthology genre itself. Seeing the novel in the 21st Century Mike Barrett evaluates Steve Tomasula's The Book of Portraiture in terms of its place between tradition and artistic innovation in the 21st century. The Comedy of Scholarship Katherine Weiss revisits Hugh Kenner's playful work of scholarship Flaubert, Joyce, and Beckett: The Stoic Comedians, a book which offers a glance into the more experimental scholarship of 1960s France and provides an analysis that to this day seems original. The Death of a Beautiful Woman: Christopher Nolan's Idea of Form In a reading of Nolan's films (with and against texts by Poe, Wittgenstein, Searle, and Derrida), Walter Benn Michaels examines the autonomy of the work of art. The Gesture of Explanation Without Intelligibility: Ronald Schleifer's Analogical Thinking Stephen Hawkins reviews Ronald Schleifer's Analogical Thinking, arguing that despite Schleifer's attempts at interdisciplinarity, his book falls short of a truly collaborative approach. Saving the Past: Deleuze's Proust and Signs Stephen Hawkins engages with the "web of counterintuitive, paradoxical, contentious and yet important claims" that he identifies in Gilles Deleuze's Proust and Signs. Reading the Conflicting Reviews: The Naysayers Gerald Graff overlooked in Clueless in Academe Genevi=E8ve Brassard defends Gerald Graff's original approaches in Clueless in Academe against his critics - for the problem with Graff's book does not lie between the covers but rather between the ears of those who fault him excessively for sins of omission and commission. ! ! ! ^ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:26:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexis Quinlan Subject: Re: response to Wife Beaters, Violence Against Women In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Glad to hear from Ann B. on the casual encounters with violence to which we grow accustomed. (Men, too?) My twenties were all about figuring out where I could get good and drunk without worrying about being raped or abandoned. I remember many first dates with nice boys. And I remember the Iranian women I've known since '79. I'd argue that the Iranians at least have a dialogue on liberation and freedom and violence because of that Peacock regime, which permitted images of Western female liberation (--as if!) (kidding!) and encouraged European education for the wealthy women too. The Saudis haven't had an option like that, nothing like it. Last I heard, from a friend in the luxe hotel biz, was they wanted to demolish a rounded skyscraper because it might make the women horny. At least once my friend's tampons were confiscated for similar reasons. (Also any clothes from Marks & Spencer were destroyed or the label cut out because it's a Jewish company.) About 9 years ago, I was doing an article on a Swiss spa and spent an evening chatting with a Saudi couple. They were in their thirties, very well dressed--she certainly wore no veil. At some point, though it had nothing to do with the article (which never ran anyway), I had to ask about clitoridectomies. The woman didn't know the word, but her husband did, and he explained it to her. Then let her do the talking. She told me she was horrified by the idea, that no one in Saudi would allow such a thing, that primitive people-- maybe in Africa--might do it, but it was impossible for her to imagine. (Apparently denial is a river in Saudi Arabia, too.) Finally, I'm glad that David C. mentioned Black Friday, our great American shopping day, in his post on violence against women. I've been talking about Reverend Billy and his Church of Stop Shopping all week, as his movie, What Would Jesus Buy?, is slowly unrolling around the country. (I highly recommend it.) He doesn't talk about violence per se, though it is a theme throughout, and one that interests me. He does show shoppers mowing one another down to get to sales. He does show the violence of small towns shut down by Walmarts and other big box stores that destroy local business. He does show the violence abroad of child labor and foreign wages. Does he need to spell it out? Probably so. I recently found a statement by Sue MacGregor, PhD, that "Persons living in a consumer society live a comfortable life at the expense of impoverished labourers and fragile ecosystems in other countries." (http://64.233.169.104/ searchq=cache:fwIZD2QT3AkJ:www.kon.org/hswp/archive/consumerism.pdf +consumerism+violence&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=safari) Her essay, "Consumerism as a Source of Structural Violence," posits that contemporary consumerist capitalism is a source of much of our culture's violence. She also mentions one of her own earlier essays -- Macgregor (2001) -- which calls consumerism a slavery for those who consume. I certainly know women who have been pained about the amount of shopping they can't stop doing. Not to mention the violence of a woman's anorexia or bulimia -- a real violence against her own loathed, not-good-enough-for-a-beer-ad body. Against my own loathed body. For years. As if there weren't better things to do. Which is of course exactly why this post is post-able on this list. AQuinlan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:52:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't know about any studies of this. But, I think, more Latin American writers have been involved in this kind of work during the twentieth century than poets from anywhere else, the most prominent, after Paz, being obviously Pablo Neruda. His Autobiography tells stories about his service in several places. Regards, Tom Savage Diane DiPrima wrote: The Elizabethan world was full of poets in the foreign service. Christopher Marlowe, Walter Raleigh, to name just two obvious ones. And of course Spenser wrote the Faerie Queene as propaganda more or less on the order of Queen Elizabeth to glorify her dream of world domination. So he as many others worked in public relations. Elizabeth changed her mind about taking on Spain after Drake took the Armada. Spenser was far from completing his poem and more or less committed to it. He spent the rest of his life in virtual exile on an estate in Ireland that Elizabeth ³rewarded?him with. Diane di Prima Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:59:58 -0500 From: "Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje)" Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service I did a quick search for something along the lines of what Barry asked about, and just an Oxford UP book by Vincent Sherry called The Great War and the Language of Modernism (2003) seems tangentially to address the issue. What an interesting question, though, about modernist poets in the foreign service (I'm interested in the history of what poets have tended to do for money). And these aren't modernists, but perhaps they're part of the geneology nonetheless: Chaucer, who was some kind of foreign minister for both Richard II and Henry IV, and Thomas Wyatt, who likewise did foreign errands for Henry VIII. =20 ....................................................... Joanie Mackowski, PhD Assistant Professor English & Comparative Literature University of Cincinnati PO Box 210069 Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 Tel. 513/556-3207 Fax 513/556-5960 joanie.mackowski@uc.edu http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Ruth Lepson Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 6:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service I remember Paz saying first poets were couriers then they were diplomats now they are professors--so around Paz's time & before you will find many. a peaceful holiday time to all. On 11/21/07 10:54 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > I have been reading A Levant Journal by George Seferis--the latest publication > from the wonderful Ibis Editions in Jerusalem. Much of the book's content > comes from Seferis's experiences as a diplomat for the Greek > government-in-exile during the occupation. This got me thinking about how many > modernist poets worked in the foreign service at one level or another--St. > John Perse, Octavio Paz, and Basil Bunting immediately come to mind. My > question, for the scholars out there: does there exist any significant study > of modernist poetry and the foreign service? ------------------------------ --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:15:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Cincinnati Poetry Reading @ Publico 11/27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: editor@cypresspoetry.com [mailto:editor@cypresspoetry.com] Sent: Sun 11/25/2007 8:43 PM To: editor@cypresspoetry.com Subject: Poetry @ Publico 11/27 Cy Press at Publico Reading Series Dan Machlin Aryanil Mukherjee Tuesday November 27th @ Publico 1308 Clay St. Cincinnati 8pm Free! Dan Machlin is the author of Dear Body (Ugly Duckling Presse) as well as the chapbooks 6=D77, This Side Facing You and In Rem. He is the founder = and editor of Futurepoem books, a publishing collaborative that presents contemporary poetry and prose from emerging and underrepresented = writers. http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Mar-Apr-05/Machlin/Machlin.html http://www.uglyducklingpresse.org/page-dearbody.html http://www.thebrooklynrail.org/poetry/sept04/machlin.html http://www.futurepoem.com/ Aryanil Mukherjee Aryanil Mukherjee writes in Bengali sometimes translating and transcreating his poetry into English. He is actively involved with parallel literary movements and is published widely in Bengali poetry circles. He has authored two books of poetry and a collection of hybrid-prose. He received the Poetry Fortnightly Honor (Subhas Mukhopadhyay Memorial Award) for 2007. Aryanil is also a prolific poetry-columnist who writes regularly in both electronic and print = media. His English work has appeared in Maverick, ZNine, RainTaxi & Jacket. Aryanil emigrated to the United States in 1995. An engineering mathematician by profession he lives in Cincinnati, Ohio. http://transdada3.blogspot.com/2006/03/aryanil-mukherjee.html http://jacketmagazine.com/34/mukherjee2.shtml http://www.kaurab.com/english/aryanil.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:36:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 11.26.07-12.02.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 LITERARY BUFFALO 11.27.07-12.02.07 LITERARY LEGACY DINNER Just Buffalo would like everyone to know that we will be honoring two of Bu= ffalo's most brilliant literary lights this Friday at Kleinhan's Music Hall= =2E The honorees for our third Literary Legacy Dinner are: Writer, Activist, & Scholar Masani Alexis De Veaux & Jonathan Welch, proprietor of Talking Leaves...Books This event is also Just Buffalo's annual fundraiser, at which we try to sin= gle out individuals who have made outstanding contributions to the vibrant = literary community that is Buffalo. There are still a few seats remaining, but tickets need to be reserved by 1= 2 p.m. Tuesday (TOMORROW). Tickets are =24100 per plate, or 2 for =24175. = Includes dinner from Oliver's and a limited edition letterpress broadside = of De Veaux's poem: =22The Garden of the Black Intellectual.=22 Call 832.5400 to reserve. ___________________________________________________________________________ BABEL WE ARE NOW OFFERING A 3-EVENT SUBSCRIPTION FOR =2460. Tickets for individual Babel events are also on sale. Call 832-5400 or visi= t http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel. Get your tickets while you can=21 December 7 Ariel Dorfman, Chile, Author of Death and the Maiden =2425 March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize =2425 April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize =2425 PLUS TWO MORE GREAT BABEL EVENTS THIS YEAR: 1: Just Buffalo/English Dept. at Buffalo State College & Talking Leaves...Book= s Present Turkish Poets: Lale M=FCld=FCr, Seyhan Eroz=E7elik, G=FCven Turan, and Murat-Nemet Nejat_= Tuesday, November 27 _All are welcome, and both events are free. _ _12:15 p.m. Reading and Discussion at Buffalo State College. Rockwell Hall, Room 124. __ 7 p.m. Reading at Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. __ Both events will feature Lale M=FCld=FCr, Seyhan Eroz=E7elik,G=FCven Turan,= and host Murat-Nemet Nejat, editor of =22Eda: An Anthology of Contemporar= y Turkish Poetry,=22 which was published by Talisman House in the United St= ates in 2004 and covers poems from 1921 to 1997, including essays on and by= Turkish poets. 2: Buffalo United Artists Presents:__ Death and the Maiden: A Staged Reading of the play by Ariel Dorfman_ Starring: Josephine Hogan, Drew Kahn and Peter Palmisano_ Saturday, December 8, 7:30 p.m._ Alleyway Theater, One Curtain Up=21 Alley. Tickets =2425. Call 886.9239 to reserve. _All proceeds benefit Just Buffalo= =2E ___________________________________________________________________________ EVENTS Unless otherwise listed, all events are free and open to the public. 11.27.07 TURKISH POETS IN BUFFALO (SEE ABOVE UNDER 'BABEL' FOR DETAILS). 11.28.07 Talking Leaves...Books Perry Nicholas Reading and signing for Rooms of the Atrium Wednesday, November 28, 7 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. 11.29.07 Just Buffalo/Communiqu=E9: Flash Fiction Thom Ward Fiction Reading Thursday, November 29, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. 12.01.01 Talking Leaves...Books Sergio Rodriguez Book Launch for The Little Santa Book Series Saturday, December 1, 1 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. 12.02.07 Burchfield-Penney Poets and Writers Barbara Holender and Sam Magavern Poetry Reading Sunday, December 2, 2 p.m. Burchfield-Penney Art Center, Rockwell Hall, Buffalo State College & Just Buffalo/Tru-Teas Verneice Turner Plus spots for open readers/Broadsides for Purchase Sunday, December 2, 4 p.m. Insite Gallery, 810 Elmwood Avenue & Spoken Word Sundays Alex Mead and Herb Kauderer Sunday, December 2, 8 p.m. Allen Street Hardware, 245 Allen St. Slots for open readers available ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ___________________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:53:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: response to Wife Beaters, Violence Against Women In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Two notes. 1. If we call every conflict or source of conflict violence the term quickly loses its usefulness. 2. "Not to mention the violence of a woman's anorexia or bulimia -- a real violence against her own loathed, not-good-enough-for-a-beer-ad body." Anorexia is a complex, barely-understood perceptual disorder. I worked with several anorexics professionally and was married to a woman who had been hospitalized as an adolescent when she weighed 60 pounds (her normal body weight was 100) and constantly struggled to behave counter to reality as she experienced it. That reality was that when she looked in the mirror she saw obesity. She was one of the lucky ones. There is no treatment that helps more than a minority of sufferers. Those who survive sometimes do so like my ex-wife; some others appear to grow out of it in their late 20s. Whatever the impact of consumer culture on their self-perception, they experience themselves as fat even when they have "good-enough-for-a-beer-ad" bodies. Bulimia seems to be a different condition, involving fear of becoming fat. Anorexics are convinced that they are fat. Mark At 09:26 AM 11/26/2007, you wrote: >Glad to hear from Ann B. on the casual encounters with violence to >which we grow accustomed. (Men, too?) My twenties were all about >figuring out where I could get good and drunk without worrying about >being raped or abandoned. I remember many first dates with nice boys. > >And I remember the Iranian women I've known since '79. I'd argue that >the Iranians at least have a dialogue on liberation and freedom and >violence because of that Peacock regime, which permitted images of >Western female liberation (--as if!) (kidding!) and encouraged >European education for the wealthy women too. The Saudis haven't had >an option like that, nothing like it. Last I heard, from a friend in >the luxe hotel biz, was they wanted to demolish a rounded skyscraper >because it might make the women horny. At least once my friend's >tampons were confiscated for similar reasons. (Also any clothes from >Marks & Spencer were destroyed or the label cut out because it's a >Jewish company.) About 9 years ago, I was doing an article on a Swiss >spa and spent an evening chatting with a Saudi couple. They were in >their thirties, very well dressed--she certainly wore no veil. At >some point, though it had nothing to do with the article (which never >ran anyway), I had to ask about clitoridectomies. The woman didn't >know the word, but her husband did, and he explained it to her. Then >let her do the talking. She told me she was horrified by the idea, >that no one in Saudi would allow such a thing, that primitive >people-- maybe in Africa--might do it, but it was impossible for her to >imagine. (Apparently denial is a river in Saudi Arabia, too.) > >Finally, I'm glad that David C. mentioned Black Friday, our great >American shopping day, in his post on violence against women. I've >been talking about Reverend Billy and his Church of Stop Shopping all >week, as his movie, What Would Jesus Buy?, is slowly unrolling around >the country. (I highly recommend it.) He doesn't talk about violence >per se, though it is a theme throughout, and one that interests me. >He does show shoppers mowing one another down to get to sales. He >does show the violence of small towns shut down by Walmarts and other >big box stores that destroy local business. He does show the violence >abroad of child labor and foreign wages. Does he need to spell it >out? Probably so. I recently found a statement by Sue MacGregor, PhD, >that "Persons living in a consumer society live a comfortable life at >the expense of impoverished labourers and fragile ecosystems in other >countries." (http://64.233.169.104/ >searchq=cache:fwIZD2QT3AkJ:www.kon.org/hswp/archive/consumerism.pdf >+consumerism+violence&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=safari) Her >essay, "Consumerism as a Source of Structural Violence," posits that >contemporary consumerist capitalism is a source of much of our >culture's violence. She also mentions one of her own earlier essays >-- Macgregor (2001) -- which calls consumerism a slavery for those >who consume. I certainly know women who have been pained about the >amount of shopping they can't stop doing. Not to mention the violence >of a woman's anorexia or bulimia -- a real violence against her own >loathed, not-good-enough-for-a-beer-ad body. Against my own loathed >body. For years. As if there weren't better things to do. Which is of >course exactly why this post is post-able on this list. > >AQuinlan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:35:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Attention Span 2007 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed This year's installment of Attention Span, featuring forty-six =20 contributors and nearly 500 titles, is now online at http://www.thirdfactory.net/attentionspan.html Contributors: Jerrold Shiroma, Bill Berkson, Pam Brown, Simon DeDeo, =20 John Palattella, James Wagner, Jordan Stempleman, Tom Orange, Allyssa =20= Wolf, Laura Carter, Patrick F. Durgin, Michael Scharf, Meredith =20 Quartermain, Simone dos Anjos, Craig Dworkin, Annie Finch, David =20 Dowker, Joshua Clover, Kevin Killian, Graham Foust, Christopher =20 Nealon, John Hyland, Nancy Kuhl, Matvei Yankelevich, Jennifer =20 Scappettone, Chris Pusateri, K. Silem Mohammad, Dana Ward, Anne =20 Boyer, Robert Kelly, Rick Snyder, Jessica Smith, Pierre Joris, John =20 Latta, Amy King, Joshua Edwards, Franklin Bruno, Catherine Taylor, =20 Benjamin Friedlander, Michael Cross, Stephanie Young, Erin Mour=E9, =20 Susana Gardner, John Sakkis, Michael Gizzi, Anselm Berrigan, and Sina =20= Queyras. All best, S. * * * * Steve Evans Associate Professor of English Graduate Studies Coordinator New Writing Series Coordinator 313 Neville Hall University of Maine Orono, ME 04469 207-581-3818 www.thirdfactory.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:43:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: konrad Subject: SF and LA film / poetry events 11/29 and 12/3 Comments: To: Experimental Film Discussion List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Thurs. Nov. 29, 8pm Presented by The Poetry Center and kino21, from the pages of Viz. Inter-Arts: EVENT The Cabaret of Hybrid Vigor Artists Television Access 992 Valencia at 21st St. San Francisco http://www.atasite.org/calendar/?x=2650 http://www.kino21.org/ http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry/ Live film narration by o Maxine Chernoff/Paul Hoover to Point Blank (1967), o Norma Cole/Mac McGinnes to Judex (1963), Poetry films, two WORLD PREMIERES o "Aliengnosis" by Robert Gluck/DeanSmith (new version) o "no(h) - setting" by Leslie Scalapino/Konrad Steiner Performances and event scores o Tristan Tzara's THE ADMIRAL LOOKS FOR A HOUSE TO RENT o several fluxus event scores will be enacted and conducted by Dore Bowen, Roxi Hamilton and others TBA (maybe YOU) Projections o Fluxfilms, and o a video gem extracted from the American Poetry Archives * * * December 3, 2007, 8 pm Roy and Edna Disney/CalArts Theater (REDCAT) http://www.redcat.org/ Jack H. Skirball Screening Series THE CINEMA CABARET: NEO-BENSHI LIVE FILM NARRATION 8:00 pm $15/$12/$8 "Neo-benshi at its best mashes up subversive written scripts, deft acting, and acrobatic mind-eye coordination." -- Steve Dickison, The Poetry Center, SFSU Poets from Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York offer a fresh take on the Japanese tradition of "benshi"-a writer or actor who provides live narration and commentary alongside silent films. The neo-benshi concept invites writers/performers to choose scenes from well-known narrative features or TV shows, mute the soundtrack, and re-inscribe the familiar images with new meanings. Featuring scenes from: Rebel Without a Cause (1955) Kiss Me Deadly (1955) Poison (Alfred Hitchcock Presents, 1958) Vive L'Amour (Ai qing wan sui, 1994) Uzumaki (2000) Minority Report (2002) Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984) Satyricon (1969) re-interpreted live from the stage by 8 solo benshi: Nada Gordon, Roxi Power Hamilton, Jen Hofer, Douglas Kearney, Eileen Myles, Jennifer Nellis, Konrad Steiner and Stephanie Young http://www.kino21.org/ ^Z ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:54:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Glenn Bach Subject: Job Announcement: Media Arts at UWM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello. I hope the following is not too far removed from the scope of the Poetics list, as I know some of you work with digital media, installation, and/or performance. The department where I teach, UWM Film, is searching for an Assistant/Associate Professor in Interactivity and New Media. Review of applications began November 15, but the position will be open until filled. The job description can be found here (http://www4.uwm.edu/psoa/home.cfm) (scroll down a bit, on the right side). Thanks, G. +++++ Assistant or Associate Professor of Film/Video/New Genres, with emphasis on interactivity & new media, tenure-track or tenured, nine month (academic year), faculty appointment in the Film Department, Peck School of the Arts, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. Starting Date: August 18, 2008 Position Description: The UWM Film Department is seeking a media artist, with an emphasis on interactivity & new media, to be appointed to a tenure-track/tenured position in a department that has a long-standing commitment to experimental and innovative teaching, research and artistic practice. Qualified candidates will have a facility across a range of moving image media and demonstrate a strong record of personal creative activity. Responsibilities will include developing curriculum, teaching undergraduate and graduate courses, providing service to the department, as well as an ongoing commitment to artistic production. Areas of interest include media interactivity, physical computing, scripting/programming and electronics, with practice relating to one or more of the following: installation, performance, internet art, gaming, robotics, sensor-based technology, human machine interface and internet resources. The Film Department offers a BFA with three tracks --Film/Video/New Genres, Conceptual Studies and Photography -- and an MFA in filmmaking/moving image media. Our curricula emphasize the ongoing collaboration of artists and scholars from a variety of disciplines, as well as from the other arts. Qualifications: Degree in the field and a strong body of production work is required. Terminal degree is preferred. Teaching experience at the college level is desired. Salary & Rank: Position is tenure-track or tenured. Salary is commensurate with qualifications and experience. PSOA & UWM: The UWM Peck School of the Arts (PSOA), www.arts.uwm.edu, is composed of five academic departments (dance, film, music, theatre, and visual arts), plus an inter-arts degree program that includes the interdisciplinary DIVAS track. It is also home to the UWM Institute of Visual Arts (Inova), which coordinates exhibits in four campus galleries. The PSOA is one of the largest arts presenters in Milwaukee, scheduling over 350 visual, performing and media arts events each year. The University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (UWM), www.uwm.edu, is one of two public doctoral research universities in the state of Wisconsin. Located on a 93-acre campus a few blocks from Lake Michigan and only minutes from downtown Milwaukee, UWM has an enrollment of over 29,000 students and offers 153 degree programs through twelve schools and colleges. Application Procedure: Applicants should send a cover letter, CV, an artist's statement, samples of personal work, list of courses taught and names of three references to: Rob Yeo, Search Committee Chair UW-Milwaukee Film Department Mitchell Hall, Room B70 3203 N. Downer Ave. Milwaukee, WI 53211 E-mail : filmwebsite@uwm.edu Application Deadline: Screening of candidates will begin November 15, 2007 and continue until the position is filled. UWM is an affirmative action, equal employment opportunity employer. All finalists for this position will require a criminal records review consistent with the Wisconsin Fair Employment Act. For the UWM Campus Security Report, see http://www.cleryact.uwm.edu/ or contact the Office of Student Life, Mellencamp Hall 118, at (414) 229-4632 for a paper copy. The names of nominees and applicants who have not requested in writing that their identities be withheld and the names of all finalists will be released upon request. -- Glenn Bach, Adjunct Assistant Professor UWM Department of Film Mitchell Hall B-60 3203 N. Downer Avenue Milwaukee, WI 53211 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:07:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: response to David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David, I will very briefly try to sum up the backchannel i sent to Alison Croggon late last night, thanking her for links: I wrote to Alison, in more words than the ones I'm about to write to a list: my post to list was my emotional reaction to two very angry Iranian women I saw on t.v. who were seeking help from feminist organizations in the U.S.to help their friends, family, fellow humans in Iran. (See? these Iranian women live in the U.S. now and they've been trying and trying and trying...with NO RESPONSE that's what THEY said.) I was merely reporting something. They were absolutely furious with American feminists. That's all I ever really said. They just can't get over it. And, by the way, I've met with so much resistance on this subject, it's hard for me to believe. I thought I was just saying something. Sort of like "awareness"--not political debate or authoritative rant. I never claimed to be an authority. I do not pretend to be an expert. And I barely have time to write poetry let alone write on lists (no, I didn't write that part to Alison...but I thought it just now) I will also sum up what I wrote to someone else on the list yesterday or, rather, what he wrote to me but i agree with him so much, i'm taking his advice to the point that i'm quoting him (but i do not intend to write his name because i don't feel it is my right to involve him in this: but what he said was: it's so difficult to have these discussions via email. and in another email i sent yesterday i wrote: why do i waste my time writing on lists? But: also: thank you to Nicholas Karavatos for the article you sent. I really appreciate it. You live there (I'm writing to Nicholas Karavatos now). Because you live there I take you as being an authority on this subject. You live in the midst of it. So I'm planning to shut up on this subject. Sorry my links were not whatever--it's true--i was just sending links. not to provide authoritative texts just to let people know about t.v. show in Saudi Arabia. i didn't have time or inclination to check out sources--i just thought people might be interested in t.v. show which really shocked me. i figured: if they were interested enough, they'd do their own research on the subject (that's what i do when i want to know about something--and it was enough for me to know that t.v. show existed in the first place. i didn't think i had to back it up so carefully--just to know it exists etc.) thanks for your response, bobbi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:23:14 -0600 From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: a response for bobbie (checking sources) Dear Bobbie: i was talking last night on the phone with my mother about the need to be c= ontinually checking on the provenance of sources which one finds--in any me= dia-- the literature on this need is growing continually--as there is a huge amou= nt of "information" available which has to be traced back to its sources in= order to have an idea how accurate it is, it even true at all--as well as= all the "grey areas" of distortion, selectivity, dis/mistranslations, edit= s, omissions, "echo chamber effects" and the like-- i was happy to find alison croggin's post regarding this today as it is an = example of how research into the background of "signs taken for wonders" a= s Karl Marx called such things, may often be found to be "too good to be t= rue"-- i went and looked up the sites you listed here, and they all turn out to be= of a dubious nature in one way or another-- the original source turns out to be MEMRI TV-- if you check for example the wikipedia entry on MEMRI--this is an organizat= ion which has been widely criticized and questioned by persons in many coun= tries--as to the integrity of their information in all facets of media-- as in any period of war, one needs to be aware of how much propaganda, fear= and hate mongering, distortions, lies, becomes the norm-- there are billions beyond billions of dollars, not to mention euros and yua= n and yen--at stake in these conflicts--in order to ensure that the support= of populations is there for the huge corporations and interests, industrie= s which profit from the war machines, it is necessary that as many persons = as possible believe the most damning lies about other populations whether i= t is in terms of religion,ideology, ethnicity, culture or that all embracin= g term "way of life"--"the clash of civilizations"--"barbarism and civiliza= tion"--such fundamentalist views are required to make persons blind deaf an= d dumb in regarding the being of other beings as anything but "the enemy," = "the personification of evil"-- the idea is that one will no longer see the other as something worth more t= han extermination--as much as possible-- so the images, sounds, texts one is shown are those which are designed to s= how such others in the worst possible light-- which is the way that the actions of MEMRI are seen to be created and funct= ioning by its critics-- in the film Blue Collar (with Richard Pryor, Harvey Keitel, Yaphet Kotto am= ong others)--there is a character who explains that power functions by sett= ing people against each other--the rich against the poor, the Black against= the White, the old against the young--even the Union can be made to turn o= n Union members--(the film was made before Reagan began to break the unions= with his firing of all the air controllers)-- become a tool of those agai= nst unions--anything to destroy the idea of unity, solidarity--among person= s in the face of power and profit-- ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:49:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan C Golding Subject: Eshleman/Vallejo Comments: cc: new-poetry-owner@wiz.cath.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline If you happen to be in the "neighborhood": Clayton Eshleman will read from and discuss his recent translation of Cesar= Vallejo's Complete Poetry (U of California Press, 2007) on Wed. Nov. 28, 7= :00 p.m., in the Bingham Poetry Room, Ekstrom Library, University of Louisv= ille. Alan Golding ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:18:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: Legendary Fluxus artist ALISON KNOWLES=?windows-1256?Q?=FE?= @ SuBtExT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WHAT: NONSEQUITUR & SUBTEXT READING SERIES PRESENT: Legendary Fluxus artist ALISON KNOWLESWHEN: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 at 8 PM WHERE: Chapel Performance Space at Good Shepherd Center, 4649 Sunnyside Ave. N (4th floor)Seattle (in Wallingford, west of I-5, just south of 50th St.)206-789-1939 and http://gschapel.blogspot.com Alison Knowles, a pioneering visual/book/sound artist and key participant in the legendary Fluxus group, presents an intermedia performance of her text "North Water Song," accompanied by her daughter Jessica Higgins (movement) and Joshua Selman (sound). Knowles makes her first appearance in Seattle on Wednesday, December 5 at 7:30 PM at the Chapel Performance Space at Good Shepherd Center in Wallingford; $5 - $15 sliding scale donation, at the door. This performance is presented by Nonsequitur (http://nseq.blogspot.com; 206-789-1939) and Subtext Reading Series (http://subtextreadingseries.blogspot.com) Born in New York in 1933, Knowles has been closely associated with Fluxus, an international group of artists concerned with blurring the boundaries between the various artistic disciplines and everyday life. For her first appearance in Seattle, she will present "North Water Song," originally composed as a tribute to John Cage on his 75th birthday and realized as a sound work commissioned by West German Radio. A close friend and collaborator with Cage, Knowles uses chance operations to extract random fragments from a variety of texts, including her own writings as well as Thoreau's Journal, the I Ching, and other water-related publications. This performance will include three simultaneous realizations of the score, with spoken text by Alison Knowles, movement by her daughter Jessica Higgins, and sound by Joshua Selman. Nonsequitur is especially pleased to renew our association with Ms. Knowles, having previously released her only solo CD "Frijoles Canyon" on our What Next? Recordings label. ARTIST BIO: Alison Knowles makes per formances, books, poems, and visual artworks. Since the 1960s she has been a key participant in Fluxus, along with Yoko Ono, Nam June Paik, Joseph Beuys, Dick Higgins, and many other international artists working in/across various disciplines. For Something Else Press she created "Notations," an anthology of graphic scores co-edited with John Cage, and "Coeurs Volants" with Marcel Duchamp. Other book-related projects have included the "Bean Rolls," a canned book that appeared in The American Century at the Whitney Museum (2000) and "The Big Book" (1967), a walk-in book with 8-foot pages; a second walk-in book, "The Book Of Bean" (1983) appeared in Venice. Her "House of Dust" was the first computerized poetry on record, winning her a Guggenheim fellowship. In the 1970s, she was Associate Professor of Art at the newly-born California Institute of the Arts with Alan Kaprow. Since the 1980s she has worked in Italy, Germany, and Japan making multiples, unique pieces, and sound wor ks for radio. Her only commercial solo CD, "Frijoles Canyon," was released by Nonsequitur in 1992 on its What Next? label. In 2001, she performed and exhibited her new paper/sound works at the Drawing Center in New York. Her graphic scores were exhibited and performed recently at the Kitchen in NYC, and she will perform at the Guggenheim Museum in 2009. ================= More artist info: http://www.aknowles.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alison_Knowles http://www.ubu.com/contemp/knowles/index.html Interviews: http://jacketmagazine.com/33/knowles-ivby-burnett.shtml http://fluxusblog.blogspot.com/2007/09/interview-with-alison-knowles-by-ruud.html http://musicmavericks.publicradio.org/features/ =================OTHER EVENTS OF NOTEBook Launch Reading for ANOTHER KIND OF NATION: AN ANTHOLOGY OF CONTEMPORARY CHINESE POETRY (Talisman House, 2007), at ELLIOTT BAY BOOK COMPANY, SATURDAY, DECEMBER 1, 2007 at 4 pm (free)Crawlspace Book Launch Reading & CD Release Party A Poem by Dan iel Comiskey & C.E. Putnam, Sunday, December 2, 2007 -- 7:30 pm Rendezvous JewelBox Theater 2322 2nd Ave. -- Seattle, WA================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: CALQUE a literary magazine of translation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The third issue of Calque is NOW available http://www.calquejournal.com My friends Steve Dolph and Brandon Downing work very hard to put this amazing magazine out. It's marvelous, and you should check it out. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:08:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN, by Dave Black MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Steve Russell wrote: >>On the other hand, suppose a decent number of libraries survive. The world, post Apocalypse, >>could be an austere paradise. I love survivalist lit. But I'm not the healthiest kid on the block. >>>>> Steve, yes, I know what you mean. The FANTASY of this is kind of terrific. When I was a kid there was a weird Charlton Heston film I was obsessed with called OMEGA MAN, set in stark post Armageddon Los Angeles. One of the things I liked to do was stare into the background of the outdoor shots to see cars on the distant freeways that you weren't supposed to notice. In reality the libraries will look much like Baghdad's libraries, ash. I wish the poetry collection at Buffalo had some sort of nuclear war provisions. Michael Basinski should request funds for this in his budget. We'll all crawl our way to Buffalo. Here's a question though, and I'm serious: Would you still write poems if you were the LAST person on Earth? The absolute LAST person. Not even any hope of offspring or anyone. Because I know I would! To me, to ask What Would Be The Point in such a case is like asking WHAT IS THE POINT for writing them now. NOT that I don't want people to read my poems! I guess I'm just saying I think I would still want to write them. But maybe not. Maybe I'd be so miserable I wouldn't want to do anything. Being the only person on Earth sounds awful. But at the moment with this ridiculous "holiday" shopping season scurrying around me at top speed it sounds kind of fucking nice! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ana Bozicevic-Bowling Subject: Document MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline DOCUMENT by Ana Bozicevic-Bowling Octopus Books, Lincoln, Nebraska Hand-bound, envelope-style chapbook, letterpressed brown on grey cover Edition of 88 $8 (includes shipping) "Document is a small booklet stapled to a bonzai-sized document folder. It's lovely. Apart from the esthetics of it, it makes me think about opening & reading. & about travel (& migration). ... There's something in the atmosphere. In the elegant brutality of several phrases among these twelve poems, of which two by the way pose as epilogues. In the suspicion that nothing is impossible or even very difficult if she sets her mind to it. ...I will jump aboard the coat & leave you, hopefully, curious at the quay." -Lars Palm in "Galatea Resurrects #8" Get yours now and go anywhere: http://www.octopusbooks.net/main.html Read from the book: http://www.octopusmagazine.com/issue08/ana_bozicevic_bowling.htm :::::::::::'' ''::' ':::::: `:::::::::::::'.::::::::::::::: :::::::::' :. : : :::::: :::::::::::.:::'::::::::::::::: :::::::::: : :::. :::::::::::::..::::' :::: : ::::::: :::::::: :': "::' '"::::::::::::: :' '' '::::::: :' : ' : :: .::::::::' ' .: : : .:: .::. ::::' ::: :. .,. ::: ':::::::::::.: ' .:...:::: :::::::. ' .::::::: ''' :: :::::. :::::::: '::::::::: '', ' ' .::::::::: ::::::::. :::::::::::: '':,: ' : ''' ::::::::: :::::::::: ::::::::::::' ::::::::::::: : .::::::::. .:'':::::::: ' :: : '::.:::::::::::: :::::::::::::::. ' '::::::. ' ' :::::.:.:.:.:.::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::: : '::::::::: ' ,:::::::::: : :.:':::::::::: ::::::::::::::::: ' ::::::::: . :'::::::::::::::' '::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::'' :::::::::: :' : ,:::::::::::' '::::::: :::::::::::::::::' .:::::::::::: :::::::::::::::: ::::::: :::::::::::::::::. .::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.':::::::: :::::::::::::::::' ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::.::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:02:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: i'm not there MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT COME BACK PERIOD OOPS MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND FORTH IN CHRONOLOGY A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la strada and particuarlly 8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award material my wife didn't know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers and closer to actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:43:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Xu Smith Subject: Email for Kay Ryan? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello - If anyone has Kay Ryan's email or contact information, can you please backchannel me? Thanks, Xu Smith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:30:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: Rattapallax DVD release, Robert Minhinnick LitWalk and Italy. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RATTAPALLAX FILM/READING Rattapallax magazine is showcasing its new selection of poetry and literary films featuring works by Billy Collins, John John Giorno, Sylvia Plath, William Blake, William Burroughs, Yehuda Amichai, and many others. With special guest Robert Minhinnick and Idra Novey. November 29, 2007, 6pm at Jonathan Shorr Gallery, 109 Crosby Street, off Prince, NYC. Free. More information at http://www.rattapallax.com The films are closed captioned and copies of poems will be handed out. Closed captioning is supported through a grant from the Theater Development Fund (TDF). -------------------------------- Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series at the Bowery Poetry Club Robert Minhinnick on Dylan Thomas. December 2, 2007, 3:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York City. Free. "Poetry Wales" magazine editor Robert Minhinnick will focus on Welsh poet Dylan Thomas and his mythical death in New York City after a drinking binge at the White Horse Tavern. Sponsored by Rattapallax. October is National Humanities Month! This program is educational and fun for students, educators, and poetry lovers. Free and open to the public as part of the Lit Walks Lecture and Poetry Series. This lecture series features prominent poets and writers discussing historical literary figures and their relationship with key New York City landmarks. More info at www.litwalks.com These program are supported, in part, by public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Litwalks is funded by the New York Council for the Humanities, a state affiliate of the National Endowment for the Humanities and public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Any views, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this program do not necessarily represent those of the New York Council for the Humanities or the National Endowment for the Humanities. --------------------- NOELTAN FILM STUDIO and POTENZA INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL AUDIO-VISIVA Workshop about Tools and Techniques of Sound Design in Audiovisuals with Vadeco Potenza, Italy December 10-15/2007 Participants: 10 Duration: 36 hours over a period of 6 days (6 hours per day) Location: Noeltan Film Studio, Via Carlo Bo 19, Potenza (PZ), Italy Objectives of the workshop: The workshop is addressed to young filmmakers, sound designers, sound tehnicians, musicians, sound poets and artists aged between 18 and 35 years. The workshop will be intensive and both theoretical and practical, in order to give participants a clear comprehension of all the aspects concerning “working with sound in audio-visuals” (in all its languages) and also a deep knowledge about the “concept of sound”. The training course will examine closely the software Digidesign Pro Tools and other main recording softwares. Digidesign Pro Tools is universally recognized in the music world and recording studios as the most used software of Hard Disk Recording. In addition to sound theoretical aspects, the workshop aims at giving basic knowledge about Pro Tools to participants in order to develop a sound project, starting from the approach till the final mixing. More information at http://www.potenzafilmfestival.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=181&Itemid=104 Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:26:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: new on rhubarb is susan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Guest blogging on rhubarb is susan this week is Julianne Werlin, talking punctuation marks and poems -- here at: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/11/points-on-poems-punctuation.html In addition, two less serious pieces by yours truly: an open letter to Tinsley Mortimer, and a brief note on Steve Evans' attention span 2007 project. http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/11/atoosa-rubenstein-does-not-like-avant.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/11/attention-span.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/ Thanks for tuning in, and do join the conversation, yours, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:51:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dr. Barry S. Alpert" Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton wa= s intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by thi= s thread might want to read around in these essays: =20 =20 http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html =20 http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm =20 http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=3D1&oref=3Dsl= ogin =20 =20 Barry Alpert =20 =20 _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_1120= 07= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:54:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Stephenson Subject: Moor Poetry! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please join us for the inaugural reading of the Moor Series!!! With: Michael Robins (Chicago, IL) http://web3.unt.edu/untpress/catalog/detail.cfm?ID=272 http://www.bornmagazine.org/ Ann Stephenson (Atlanta, GA) http://www.coconutpoetry.org/stephenson1.htm http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirty/stephenson.html & Brett Price (Cincinnati, OH) http://www.forkliftohio.com http://www.h-ngm-n.com/h_ngm_n-5/brett-price.html At: 840 Gallery Wednesday, November 28 6:30 PM The 840 Gallery is located on the campus of the University of Cincinnati outside of the Steger Center across from Nippert Stadium. http://www.uc.edu/ http://www.uc.edu/visitors/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:36:44 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Kozik/Schwabsky collaboration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The exhibition =E2=80=9CNew Prints=E2=80=9D at VanDeb Editions, 313 West 37= th Street, 7th floor, New York, NY includes three prints (etching, aquatint= ) by KK Kozik with poems by Barry Schwabsky.=0AThe opening reception is Thu= rsday, November 29, 6:00-8:00 pm. Gallery hours are Monday-Thursday 1:00-5:= 00 pm or by appointment, 212-564-5533. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:35:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline anyone mention basil bunting? On Nov 27, 2007 9:51 AM, Dr. Barry S. Alpert wrote: > Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton > was intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by > this thread might want to read around in these essays: > > > http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html > > http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm > > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=1&oref=slogin > > > Barry Alpert > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > > http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 -- beat'n animals http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:49:43 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I seem to remember that Eliot Weinberger wrote something about him in Monte= mora years ago.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Dr. Barry S. Al= pert =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0AS= ent: Tuesday, 27 November, 2007 2:51:17 PM=0ASubject: Re: poetry and the fo= reign service=0A=0AThough not exactly a member of the foreign service, Jame= s Jesus Angleton was intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Tho= se intrigued by this thread might want to read around in these essays:=0A= =0A=0Ahttp://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html=0A=0Ahttp://www.je= etheer.com/politics/cia.htm=0A=0Ahttp://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burle= igh-private.html?_r=3D1&oref=3Dslogin=0A=0A=0ABarry Alpert=0A=0A=0A________= _________________________________________________________=0AConnect and sha= re in new ways with Windows Live.=0Ahttp://www.windowslive.com/connect.html= ?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:23:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: i'm not there Comments: To: "steve d. dalachinsky" In-Reply-To: 20071126.190224.604.17.skyplums@juno.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I saw it more as being really flawed with a few good things -- On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 07:02 PM, "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE >ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT COME BACK PERIOD OOPS >MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND FORTH IN CHRONOLOGY >A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la strada and particuarlly >8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award material my wife didn't >know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers and closer to >actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:31:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline One of the more truly strange and fascinating tales in the annals of spydom, polylinguistics, newspaper and book addictions, friend of the rich and famous, scientists, writers and social lights, is the professional baseball player Moe Berg, of whom two adult bios and one juvenile readers' accounts have been penned. (ESPN also made a good video bio.) Since he was a lifetime catcher, (after an early in career injury, soley used as a backup, often third string; weak hitter, very good defense), Berg may be thought of as one part of Jack Spicer's battery of pitcher and catcher. As a member of a team of mainly All Star players sent to Japan in 1934 (he'd also gone in '33), Berg, while the team played in another city, took a tour of Tokyo during which he ascended to the top of building and took movie camera footage of the harbor and important buildings of the capital city. These later proved to be his entree into the early days of the OSS, culminating in a mission to attend a war time lecture by Heisenberg in Switzerland and bring back a report of it, to see if any evidence of any work on a Nazi A-bomb. Berg was a bizarre character who grew progressively stranger and more deliberately "mysterious" in later life, letting it be thought that he was still an agent, while actually having been let go after the OSS began to turn into the CIA. Due to his obsessive reading of newspapers--which he would not not let anyone else touch until he had read them, as until then they were "alive"--and his wide reading in obscure topics, Berg became famous in the mid 1930's as a guest on "Information Please" Quiz Shows on the radio. The weird combination of a baseball player with the knowledge of a "professor" made him a huge favorite. To the end of his life he was able to live off of friends and in their homes due to his early celebrity and "connections" across many strati of society. Berg always let it be known that he studied and mastered many languages--though it is unclear how much he really knew or could speak. He was able to create a myth about himself which gave him a freedom from a life of much work (many years of his career he played in very games), and at the same a dependence on others, opening and closing many strange doors during his life. The reason for writing of him in connection with poets and foreign service is that Berg was able to exist in seemingly disparate worlds by the continual manipulation of his self-created image of a man who was very good with words--the vast vocabulary of the memorizer of mountains of information, from the most trivial, obscure and dull to the most significant, useful, and interesting. Adding to this his self-created aura of a quick-study learner of a great number of languages 'dead' and living, Berg was able to wow others impressed by words, from sports writers and PR radio people to professional lecturers, "experts," and his bosses in the OSS. These in turn promoted him--basically Berg became a man who lived by his wits via the creation of a persona who existed only in language. His biographers note that as the years went by, the chasm between his outward persona, with its vast vocabularies, and his inner "emptiness" as an actual person, grew ever wider. The illusions he performed became ever harder to sustain, and the limits of his actual world smaller and smaller. Via the ambiguities of his actual knowledge of languages and vocabularies, roots and grammars, long before he became a professional spy, Berg had created such a niche for himself. When he skipped a ball game to take candestine films, he was in a sense "projecting himself" via these images into his future role as a surveillance-being, a hired listener and reader, a hired "catcher" of (stolen) signs from the "pitcher" of the opposing team. A graduate of Princeton, the third string catcher and radio star, the ambiguous newspaper addict and obscure book collector Mr Berg became involved in the A-bomb saga begun by one of Princeton's most famed future Professors, Albert Einstein. And at the heart of all these events is the activity of words employed in both a "foreign service" and in the service of the creation of a persona who existed sporadically in the "Objectivist" poetry of baseball box sores and much more "under cover" and shadowily, rhizomatically, among the "Curveballs" of languages, words, signs, and in the "stolen signs" and "moving pictures" creating interconnections between baseball diamonds and the fissioning of atomic particles linking the USA and Japan. (Working to see if the Germans had the makings of a Bomb, Berg all along carried within him the cinematic and linguistic seeds of the Bomb's ultimate destinations in Hiroshima, Nagasaki.) In a strange way indeed, Moe Berg is actually a "deep cover" player in the baseball/Hiroshima poetry connections found within Jack Spicer's work, and made fully explicit by that would-be author of an "After Spicer" work, Araki Yasasuda, in the poem "Horsehide and Sunspot, 17 July 1968--Hiroshima Municipal Stadium." From the baseball diamond of Princeton where Einstein later teaches, via a clandestine film made while playing hookey from a ball game, to the Candlestick Park of the pitchers and catchers of Spicer's radio broadcast games, to the fictional poet attending a game in Hiroshima Stadium, one finds the famously flat-footed radio star, spy and catcher, language-obsessed, walking through the 20th century's atomic Holocaust of fissioning, fusioning, fall out particles of atoms and poetry, box scores, coded messages, screaming headlines, obscure and trivial '"faits divers" and a landscape of writing in which the "writing on the wall" is the physically embedded shadow of the last living instant of a human being. From a moving picture image to a shadow fixed in concrete by the light flash of a never before seen sun . . . Baseball games seen by the eyes of a participant/ bench warming player, heard on the radio by a poet of Outside, observed by a fictional poet created by a pseudonymous "late" writer . . . a trajectory of reading and writing moves through identities real, imagined, covert, pseudonymous, dead, ghostly, Outside . . . writers and readers that are themselves fissions, fusions, recorded images and voices, receivers and transmitters of the ghostly, the Outside, the dead, the living-dead, the imagined, the hallucinated, the Shocked, the voluntarily or not covert . . . among forgeries and doublespeak--propaganda and prayers-- a trajectory of energy, mass and light speeding towo/ards a shadow embedded in concrete-- not a "writing ON the wall"--but a writing IN the wall-- a concrete shadow in three dimensions of a light eclipsing the sun in broad daylight-- (in its --or "under cover" of its--darkness are all the words ever written so intermingled they have become --unreadable--or are they now being transmitted in an other way from this cipher of/at the edge, the "last instant"--what sounds come forth from the depths within the wall--or have they all become at once "concrete" and "shadow"- . . . ) (Both the bios for adults of Moe Berg are very good, the other i have yet to read. Moe Berg is also the only person one may find having bios at such sites as Famous Jewish-Americans, the CIA website and many baseball sites and some other espionage ones. Cathers often later in life become radio announcers and managers. The only one who is a kind of relative of Moe Beg is Bob Uecker, the Hall of Fame broadcaster for the Milwaukee Brewers, also a star of the Johnny Carson Show and the tv sit com Mr. Belvedere. Like Berg, Uecker was a famously mediocre hitter--he had a "perfect" . 200 average--the only itcher he could hit was, inexplicably, Sandy Koufax-- --and also very good defesively. He, unlike Berg, was able to use his gift with words as a stand up comedian and a writer--his Carcher in the Wry is a fun read. On Nov 27, 2007 6:51 AM, Dr. Barry S. Alpert wrote: > Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton was intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by this thread might want to read around in these essays: > > > http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html > > http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=1&oref=slogin > > > Barry Alpert > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:56:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: <658614.87929.qm@web86008.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit yes & Eliot has translated, w others, poems abt India by Paz when he was an ambassador there--A Tale of Two Gardens. On 11/27/07 11:49 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > I seem to remember that Eliot Weinberger wrote something about him in > Montemora years ago. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dr. Barry S. Alpert > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, 27 November, 2007 2:51:17 PM > Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service > > Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton was > intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by this > thread might want to read around in these essays: > > > http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html > > http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=1&oref=slogin > > > Barry Alpert > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:22:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: i'm not there MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'm floored aldon tho yes i do understand and flawed is flawed one way or the other On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:23:24 -0500 ALDON L NIELSEN writes: > I saw it more as being really flawed with a few good things -- > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 07:02 PM, "steve d. dalachinsky" > wrote: > > > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A SECOND OF MOTOR > CYCLE > >ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT COME BACK PERIOD > OOPS > >MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND FORTH IN > CHRONOLOGY > >A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la strada and > particuarlly > >8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award material my wife > didn't > >know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers and closer to > >actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > > > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:42:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What a wonderful account - and interp - of this Moe Berg, David! In/of who I have been ignorant. I like the ghost play analysis - tho I will have to revisit the connections you make with Jack Spycer (haha!). Tho Spicer was clearly aware the trajectory of the shadow on the Hiroshima wall. The line between poetry and spying & code-breaking is also there among the Brits in World War II. M-5 (is it?) British Intelligence made use of the 'new criticism' skills of students of IA Richards and William Empson. 7 Types of Ambiguity - as a manual for decoding poems was also good training for decoding enemy scripts. The fact that some of these students - Marxist communists - were also into re communicating secrets to Moscow put another set of ghosts into the works. Apparently the information on how to build the bomb traveled quite easily from Washington to Moscow. Beware the well trained boys from both Princeton and Cambridge. The poem as a double agent! I won't go further with that. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ David Chirot wrote: One of the more truly strange and fascinating tales in the annals of spydom, polylinguistics, newspaper and book addictions, friend of the rich and famous, scientists, writers and social lights, is the professional baseball player Moe Berg, of whom two adult bios and one juvenile readers' accounts have been penned. (ESPN also made a good video bio.) Since he was a lifetime catcher, (after an early in career injury, soley used as a backup, often third string; weak hitter, very good defense), Berg may be thought of as one part of Jack Spicer's battery of pitcher and catcher. As a member of a team of mainly All Star players sent to Japan in 1934 (he'd also gone in '33), Berg, while the team played in another city, took a tour of Tokyo during which he ascended to the top of building and took movie camera footage of the harbor and important buildings of the capital city. These later proved to be his entree into the early days of the OSS, culminating in a mission to attend a war time lecture by Heisenberg in Switzerland and bring back a report of it, to see if any evidence of any work on a Nazi A-bomb. Berg was a bizarre character who grew progressively stranger and more deliberately "mysterious" in later life, letting it be thought that he was still an agent, while actually having been let go after the OSS began to turn into the CIA. Due to his obsessive reading of newspapers--which he would not not let anyone else touch until he had read them, as until then they were "alive"--and his wide reading in obscure topics, Berg became famous in the mid 1930's as a guest on "Information Please" Quiz Shows on the radio. The weird combination of a baseball player with the knowledge of a "professor" made him a huge favorite. To the end of his life he was able to live off of friends and in their homes due to his early celebrity and "connections" across many strati of society. Berg always let it be known that he studied and mastered many languages--though it is unclear how much he really knew or could speak. He was able to create a myth about himself which gave him a freedom from a life of much work (many years of his career he played in very games), and at the same a dependence on others, opening and closing many strange doors during his life. The reason for writing of him in connection with poets and foreign service is that Berg was able to exist in seemingly disparate worlds by the continual manipulation of his self-created image of a man who was very good with words--the vast vocabulary of the memorizer of mountains of information, from the most trivial, obscure and dull to the most significant, useful, and interesting. Adding to this his self-created aura of a quick-study learner of a great number of languages 'dead' and living, Berg was able to wow others impressed by words, from sports writers and PR radio people to professional lecturers, "experts," and his bosses in the OSS. These in turn promoted him--basically Berg became a man who lived by his wits via the creation of a persona who existed only in language. His biographers note that as the years went by, the chasm between his outward persona, with its vast vocabularies, and his inner "emptiness" as an actual person, grew ever wider. The illusions he performed became ever harder to sustain, and the limits of his actual world smaller and smaller. Via the ambiguities of his actual knowledge of languages and vocabularies, roots and grammars, long before he became a professional spy, Berg had created such a niche for himself. When he skipped a ball game to take candestine films, he was in a sense "projecting himself" via these images into his future role as a surveillance-being, a hired listener and reader, a hired "catcher" of (stolen) signs from the "pitcher" of the opposing team. A graduate of Princeton, the third string catcher and radio star, the ambiguous newspaper addict and obscure book collector Mr Berg became involved in the A-bomb saga begun by one of Princeton's most famed future Professors, Albert Einstein. And at the heart of all these events is the activity of words employed in both a "foreign service" and in the service of the creation of a persona who existed sporadically in the "Objectivist" poetry of baseball box sores and much more "under cover" and shadowily, rhizomatically, among the "Curveballs" of languages, words, signs, and in the "stolen signs" and "moving pictures" creating interconnections between baseball diamonds and the fissioning of atomic particles linking the USA and Japan. (Working to see if the Germans had the makings of a Bomb, Berg all along carried within him the cinematic and linguistic seeds of the Bomb's ultimate destinations in Hiroshima, Nagasaki.) In a strange way indeed, Moe Berg is actually a "deep cover" player in the baseball/Hiroshima poetry connections found within Jack Spicer's work, and made fully explicit by that would-be author of an "After Spicer" work, Araki Yasasuda, in the poem "Horsehide and Sunspot, 17 July 1968--Hiroshima Municipal Stadium." From the baseball diamond of Princeton where Einstein later teaches, via a clandestine film made while playing hookey from a ball game, to the Candlestick Park of the pitchers and catchers of Spicer's radio broadcast games, to the fictional poet attending a game in Hiroshima Stadium, one finds the famously flat-footed radio star, spy and catcher, language-obsessed, walking through the 20th century's atomic Holocaust of fissioning, fusioning, fall out particles of atoms and poetry, box scores, coded messages, screaming headlines, obscure and trivial '"faits divers" and a landscape of writing in which the "writing on the wall" is the physically embedded shadow of the last living instant of a human being. From a moving picture image to a shadow fixed in concrete by the light flash of a never before seen sun . . . Baseball games seen by the eyes of a participant/ bench warming player, heard on the radio by a poet of Outside, observed by a fictional poet created by a pseudonymous "late" writer . . . a trajectory of reading and writing moves through identities real, imagined, covert, pseudonymous, dead, ghostly, Outside . . . writers and readers that are themselves fissions, fusions, recorded images and voices, receivers and transmitters of the ghostly, the Outside, the dead, the living-dead, the imagined, the hallucinated, the Shocked, the voluntarily or not covert . . . among forgeries and doublespeak--propaganda and prayers-- a trajectory of energy, mass and light speeding towo/ards a shadow embedded in concrete-- not a "writing ON the wall"--but a writing IN the wall-- a concrete shadow in three dimensions of a light eclipsing the sun in broad daylight-- (in its --or "under cover" of its--darkness are all the words ever written so intermingled they have become --unreadable--or are they now being transmitted in an other way from this cipher of/at the edge, the "last instant"--what sounds come forth from the depths within the wall--or have they all become at once "concrete" and "shadow"- . . . ) (Both the bios for adults of Moe Berg are very good, the other i have yet to read. Moe Berg is also the only person one may find having bios at such sites as Famous Jewish-Americans, the CIA website and many baseball sites and some other espionage ones. Cathers often later in life become radio announcers and managers. The only one who is a kind of relative of Moe Beg is Bob Uecker, the Hall of Fame broadcaster for the Milwaukee Brewers, also a star of the Johnny Carson Show and the tv sit com Mr. Belvedere. Like Berg, Uecker was a famously mediocre hitter--he had a "perfect" . 200 average--the only itcher he could hit was, inexplicably, Sandy Koufax-- --and also very good defesively. He, unlike Berg, was able to use his gift with words as a stand up comedian and a writer--his Carcher in the Wry is a fun read. On Nov 27, 2007 6:51 AM, Dr. Barry S. Alpert wrote: > Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton was intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by this thread might want to read around in these essays: > > > http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html > > http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=1&oref=slogin > > > Barry Alpert > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:34:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: ars poetica Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In January, 2007 someone invited me so I wrote a poem and sent it to Dan Waber a couple of weeks later for his ars poetica website because I liked the idea behind the site. Some time after that I was curious as to why it had not appeared. Dan politely wrote back that he was getting so many submissions that my poem would come out in approximately nine months! Here is the link for the site (which no doubt most of you have seen, but even if you have, it is certainly worth visiting again): http://www.logolalia.com/arspoetica/ and here is the archived link for my poem posted on November 21: http://www.logolalia.com/arspoetica/archives/cat_piombino_nick.html Thanks, Dan! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:34:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: University of Miami MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (this is a forward. please don't respond to me. good luck!) University of Miami, Florida The English Department seeks a Visiting Associate Professor/Poet, Fall 2008-Spring 2009, for a one-year, non-renewable position, to teach two courses in poetry writing each semester & direct MFA theses. MFA in creative writing or equivalent, two years teaching experience at the undergraduate & graduate levels, & three published books of poetry required. Salary competitive. Send letter & c.v. to: Patrick A. McCarthy, Chair, Dept. of English, University of Miami, P.O. Box 248145-4632, Coral Gables, FL 33124. Applications received by December 10 will be assured consideration. Interviews to be held at AWP. Women & minorities are encouraged to apply. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:50:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: London Calling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I'm going to be speaking at a conference in London on February 2. This has me wondering, assuming there are any Londoners on the list these days, if anybody knows of any poetry events there I might try to attend while I'm in town. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:03:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Kozik/Schwabsky collaboration In-Reply-To: <27027.3472.qm@web86005.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Congrats, Barry. Wish I could I be there to see the work. -----Original Message----- From: Barry Schwabsky To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:36 am Subject: Kozik/Schwabsky collaboration The exhibition =E2=80=9CNew Prints=E2=80=9D at VanDeb Editions, 313 West 37t= h Street, 7th floor,=20 ew York, NY includes three prints (etching, aquatint) by KK Kozik with poems= by=20 arry Schwabsky. he opening reception is Thursday, November 29, 6:00-8:00 pm. Gallery hours a= re=20 onday-Thursday 1:00-5:00 pm or by appointment, 212-564-5533. ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn= .com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=3Daolcmp0005000000= 0003 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:46:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Berkeley Renaissance Poet Landis Everson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Landis Everson, 1926 - 2007 Member of Berkeley Renaissance group later returned to poetry after four decades template_bas template_bas By Mary Rourke, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer November 29, 2007 Landis Everson, a member of the Berkeley Renaissance poets of the 1940s and '50s who later gave up poetry for four decades but made a strong comeback in his old age, has died. He was 81. Everson died Nov. 17 in Mill Valley, north of San Francisco, of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head, according to Denise Wilson of the Marin County coroner's office. His body was found on a public path and taken to Marin General Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. He had been in failing health in recent years after suffering several strokes. Everson came of age as a poet with his friends Jack Spicer, Robin Blaser and Robert Duncan, the core members of the Berkeley Renaissance poets. They aimed to write "erudite poetry -- classical and biblical allusions were the norm," wrote Rachel Aviv in an essay about Everson and his colleagues that is posted on the Poetry Foundation website. In "Lemon Tree," Everson refers to "a tree that grew in the Garden of Eden" and suggests that the fruit turned bitter after Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden. In other poems he used Surrealist images -- of deer grazing in his bed, for example. "Landis had a very contemporary-style surrealism," said poet Kevin Clark, chairman of the creative writing program at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. "He connected the imagery to our lives, more accessibly than many Surrealists do." When the Berkeley Renaissance poets drifted apart in the early 1960s, Everson gave up poetry. He stopped because "for him poetry is a communication between friends, not a commercial enterprise," according to a 2005 New York Times article about Everson. "I wasn't seeing my friends," Everson said to explain his decision. He settled in San Luis Obispo and worked in construction, renovating houses. He returned to poetry in his 70s, after he retired. He was encouraged by poet and editor Ben Mazer, who discovered Everson's work while he was researching the Berkeley Renaissance poets several years ago. After meeting Mazer, Everson wrote some 300 poems in three years. In 2005, he received the Emily Dickinson Award, given by the Poetry Foundation to poets over age 50 who have never published a book. The following year Everson's first book, "Everything Preserved: Poems 1955-2005," was published by Graywolf Press. "Landis never thought of publishing a book as an end result," said John Barr, president of the Poetry Foundation. "He wrote poetry to share with his immediate circle of friends and was far less interested in writing to publish." Everson was born in Coronado, Calif., on Oct. 5, 1926. He graduated from UC Berkeley in the early 1950s and went on to earn a master's degree in English from Columbia University in New York. After returning to poetry in 2003, he often traveled to give readings of his work. He was in Boston for a reading last year when he suffered his first stroke. "Landis was a gentle, sweet guy," said Kevin Patrick Sullivan, co-director of the annual San Luis Obispo Poetry Festival, where Everson was featured in 2006. "He was a little astounded by the fuss over his work after all these years." Everson has no known survivors. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:21:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rusty Morrison Subject: Kaya Oakes and Chad Sweeney read Dec 8th In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >News about: > >Book Release Party at Pegasus: >Chad Sweeney and Kaya Oakes >Saturday December 8th 7:30pm at Pegasus Books/ 2349 >Shattuck, Berkeley > >please, join in celebrating the >publication of Chad Sweeney=92s >AN ARCHITECTURE (BlazeVOX Books), a book-length poem >in 56 parts. >http://www.blazevox.org/bk-cs.htm > >Kaya Oakes will be reading from her recent >award-winning collection, TELEGRAPH (Pavement Saw), >winner of the Transcontinental Poetry Prize. >http://www.oakestown.org/ > >Event Details: >Pegasus Books Downtown >2349 Shattuck Avenue >Berkeley, CA 94704 >Phone (510) 649-1320 >Pegasus Downtown is at the corner of Shattuck and >Durant, three blocks from Downtown Berkeley Bart. > > >Praise for An Architecture: >=93In Sweeney's swift architecture, memory assumes the >power of imagination, and language becomes a platform >for the mind's multiplicity: =91I speak, therefore I >are.' Sweeney, as Vitruvius before him, makes >architecture the sister-discipline of music.=94 >=97Andrew Joron >=93The poem is an elegy for the world in all its beauty >and disturbing variety.=94 >=97Maxine Chernoff > >Praise for Telegraph: >=93Kaya Oakes' moving debut in TELEGRAPH charts a coming >back to life with uncompromising lucidity and sorrow.=94 > =97Claudia Keelan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:58:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "can¢t believe it¢s". Rest of header flushed. From: Matt Henriksen Subject: NYC Fri 11/30: Maureen Alsop & Jean Valentine! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maureen Alsop & Je= The Burning Chair Readings=0Acan=A2t believe it=A2s=0A=0AMaureen Alsop & Je= an Valentine=0A=0AFriday, November 30th, 8PM=0AJimmy=A2s No.43 Stage=0A43 E= ast 7th Street=0ABetween 2nd& 3rd=0ANew York City=0A=0AMaureen Alsop=A2s re= cent poems have appeared or are pending in various publications including: = Barrow Street, Typo, Margie, Columbia : A Journal of Literature and Art and= Texas Review.=0AHer poetry was three times nominated for the Pushcart Priz= e. She is the=0A2006 recipient of Harpur Palate's Milton Kessler Memorial P= rize for=0APoetry and The Eleventh Muse 2006 poetry prize. Her first full= =0Acollection of poetry Apparition Wren is available through Main Street Ra= g. ~ Two poems in Typo 10.=0A=0AJean Valentine won the Yale Younger Poets A= ward for her first book, Dream Barker, in 1965. Her most recent collection,= Door in the Mountain: New and Collected Poems 1965 - 2003,=0Awon the 2004 = National Book Award for Poetry. Author of eight additional=0Abooks, Valenti= ne has received a Guggenheim Fellowship and awards from=0Athe NEA, The Bunt= ing Institute, The Rockefeller Foundation, The New=0AYork Council for the A= rts, and The New York Foundation for the Arts, as=0Awell as the Maurice Eng= lish Prize, the Teasdale Poetry Prize, and The=0APoetry Society of America'= s Shelley Memorial Prize. She has taught at=0AColumbia, Sarah Lawrence Coll= ege, NYU, and the 92nd St. Y, among other=0Aplaces. ~ Jean Valentine.com fe= aturing audio recordings of poems from Door in the Mountain.=0A=0Atypomag.c= om/burningchair=0Ajimmysno43.com=0A=0A=0A=0A _________________________= ___________________________________________________________=0AGet easy, one= -click access to your favorites. =0AMake Yahoo! your homepage.=0Ahttp://www= .yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:26:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron McCollough Subject: Issue 9 of GutCult Now Live MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear All- The fall/winter issue of GutCult (our 9th issue) is now available for consumption at: http://www.gutcult.com In this issue: lyric essays by Dan Beachy-Quick poems by: Gabriel Gudding, Anya L. Cobler, Sandra Simonds, Lucy Ives, Kazim Ali. reviews of Kate Greenstreet and Susan Briante by Becca Klaver and Jen Tynes. Best Wishes- Aaron McCollough ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Great review of Michael Kelleher's Human Scale Comments: To: Poetryetc poetry and poetics , "BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Michael Kelleher's Human Scale reviewed by R. D. Phol on Art Beat! BUY IT HERE : http://www.blazevox.org/bk-mk2.htm -- Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza Editor & Publisher ------------------------------------- BlazeVOX [ books ] Publisher of weird little books -------------------------------------- editor@blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:13:54 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: New Sound Files Up At Penn Sound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For the deconstructing ear: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Glass.html#SU07 Take a listen! Jesse Glass ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:39:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Berkeley Renaissance Poet Landis Everson In-Reply-To: <1196351161l.712842l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oh this is so sad. why at 81?! ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > Landis Everson, 1926 - 2007 > Member of Berkeley Renaissance group later returned to poetry after four decades > > > > template_bas > template_bas > By Mary Rourke, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer > November 29, 2007 > Landis Everson, a member of the Berkeley Renaissance poets of the 1940s and > '50s who later gave up poetry for four decades but made a strong comeback in > his old age, has died. He was 81. > > Everson died Nov. 17 in Mill Valley, north of San Francisco, of a > self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head, according to Denise Wilson of the > Marin County coroner's office. His body was found on a public path and taken to > Marin General Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. > > He had been in failing health in recent years after suffering several strokes. > > Everson came of age as a poet with his friends Jack Spicer, Robin Blaser and > Robert Duncan, the core members of the Berkeley Renaissance poets. > > They aimed to write "erudite poetry -- classical and biblical allusions were > the norm," wrote Rachel Aviv in an essay about Everson and his colleagues that > is posted on the Poetry Foundation website. > > In "Lemon Tree," Everson refers to "a tree that grew in the Garden of Eden" and > suggests that the fruit turned bitter after Adam and Eve were cast out of the > garden. In other poems he used Surrealist images -- of deer grazing in his bed, > for example. > > "Landis had a very contemporary-style surrealism," said poet Kevin Clark, > chairman of the creative writing program at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. "He > connected the imagery to our lives, more accessibly than many Surrealists do." > > When the Berkeley Renaissance poets drifted apart in the early 1960s, Everson > gave up poetry. He stopped because "for him poetry is a communication between > friends, not a commercial enterprise," according to a 2005 New York Times > article about Everson. "I wasn't seeing my friends," Everson said to explain > his decision. > > He settled in San Luis Obispo and worked in construction, renovating houses. He > returned to poetry in his 70s, after he retired. > > He was encouraged by poet and editor Ben Mazer, who discovered Everson's work > while he was researching the Berkeley Renaissance poets several years ago. > > After meeting Mazer, Everson wrote some 300 poems in three years. > > In 2005, he received the Emily Dickinson Award, given by the Poetry Foundation > to poets over age 50 who have never published a book. The following year > Everson's first book, "Everything Preserved: Poems 1955-2005," was published by > Graywolf Press. > > "Landis never thought of publishing a book as an end result," said John Barr, > president of the Poetry Foundation. "He wrote poetry to share with his > immediate circle of friends and was far less interested in writing to publish." > > Everson was born in Coronado, Calif., on Oct. 5, 1926. He graduated from UC > Berkeley in the early 1950s and went on to earn a master's degree in English > from Columbia University in New York. > > After returning to poetry in 2003, he often traveled to give readings of his > work. He was in Boston for a reading last year when he suffered his first > stroke. > > "Landis was a gentle, sweet guy," said Kevin Patrick Sullivan, co-director of > the annual San Luis Obispo Poetry Festival, where Everson was featured in 2006. > "He was a little astounded by the fuss over his work after all these years." > > Everson has no known survivors. > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:06:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Dec 2: Woodland Pattern open house MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sunday, December 2nd at Woodland Pattern Book Center 720 East Locust Street Milwaukee, WI http://woodlandpattern.org Poetry Reading at 2pm FREE TO THE PUBLIC Come celebrate another year with Woodland Pattern at our Annual Open House on Sunday, December 2, 2007! As always, there will be baked goodies and beverages, good conversation, books to browse, and an opportunity to check out Roberto Harrison's art exhibit, Ineffable Isthmus: Journals and Drawings in the Woodland Pattern gallery! In addition, Woodland Pattern will welcome several poets featured in The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century, to read at the Open House. The book brings together a sampling of some of the best poets working in Chicago and the surrounding region. http://crackedslabbooks.com From all corners of the city, these poets are crafting a voice for Chicago literature in the new century: Ed Roberson, Brenda Cardenas, Jennifer Scappettone, Robert Archambeau, Joel Craig, Kerri Sonnenberg, Jennifer Karmin, Mark Tardi, and a surprise guest or two. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:42:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Truscott Subject: reminder: this Thursday: Avasilichioaei and Carr at Test (Toronto) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed 29 November 2007, 8:00 p.m. OANA AVASILICHIOAEI and ANGELA CARR at the Test Reading Series Mercer Union, A Centre for Contemporary Art 37 Lisgar Street, Toronto Free (donations toward the running of the series gratefully accepted) Contextual information about the readers and a map are available at www.testreading.org. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts and the League of Canadian poets for this reading. Hope to see you there, Mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:45:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Berkeley Renaissance Poet Landis Everson In-Reply-To: <474F2379.4040504@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unrelatedly, he died in the hospital where I was born. more relatedly, doesn't the line "for him poetry is a communication between friends, not a commercial enterprise" describe the stance of most of the Berkeley poets of that group? from what I've read, Spicer held this position... sad news indeed.=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 14:39 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Berkeley Renaissance Poet Landis Everson oh this is so sad. why at 81?! ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > Landis Everson, 1926 - 2007 > Member of Berkeley Renaissance group later returned to poetry after four decades > > > > template_bas > template_bas > By Mary Rourke, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer=20 > November 29, 2007=20 > Landis Everson, a member of the Berkeley Renaissance poets of the 1940s and > '50s who later gave up poetry for four decades but made a strong comeback in > his old age, has died. He was 81.=20 > > Everson died Nov. 17 in Mill Valley, north of San Francisco, of a > self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head, according to Denise Wilson of the > Marin County coroner's office. His body was found on a public path and taken to > Marin General Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. > > He had been in failing health in recent years after suffering several strokes. > > Everson came of age as a poet with his friends Jack Spicer, Robin Blaser and > Robert Duncan, the core members of the Berkeley Renaissance poets.=20 > > They aimed to write "erudite poetry -- classical and biblical allusions were > the norm," wrote Rachel Aviv in an essay about Everson and his colleagues that > is posted on the Poetry Foundation website. > > In "Lemon Tree," Everson refers to "a tree that grew in the Garden of Eden" and > suggests that the fruit turned bitter after Adam and Eve were cast out of the > garden. In other poems he used Surrealist images -- of deer grazing in his bed, > for example. > > "Landis had a very contemporary-style surrealism," said poet Kevin Clark, > chairman of the creative writing program at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. "He > connected the imagery to our lives, more accessibly than many Surrealists do." > > When the Berkeley Renaissance poets drifted apart in the early 1960s, Everson > gave up poetry. He stopped because "for him poetry is a communication between > friends, not a commercial enterprise," according to a 2005 New York Times > article about Everson. "I wasn't seeing my friends," Everson said to explain > his decision. > > He settled in San Luis Obispo and worked in construction, renovating houses. He > returned to poetry in his 70s, after he retired. > > He was encouraged by poet and editor Ben Mazer, who discovered Everson's work > while he was researching the Berkeley Renaissance poets several years ago.=20 > > After meeting Mazer, Everson wrote some 300 poems in three years. > > In 2005, he received the Emily Dickinson Award, given by the Poetry Foundation > to poets over age 50 who have never published a book. The following year > Everson's first book, "Everything Preserved: Poems 1955-2005," was published by > Graywolf Press.=20 > > "Landis never thought of publishing a book as an end result," said John Barr, > president of the Poetry Foundation. "He wrote poetry to share with his > immediate circle of friends and was far less interested in writing to publish." > > Everson was born in Coronado, Calif., on Oct. 5, 1926. He graduated from UC > Berkeley in the early 1950s and went on to earn a master's degree in English > from Columbia University in New York.=20 > > After returning to poetry in 2003, he often traveled to give readings of his > work. He was in Boston for a reading last year when he suffered his first > stroke. > > "Landis was a gentle, sweet guy," said Kevin Patrick Sullivan, co-director of > the annual San Luis Obispo Poetry Festival, where Everson was featured in 2006. > "He was a little astounded by the fuss over his work after all these years." > > Everson has no known survivors. > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:31:43 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: New Jesse Glass Sound Files at PENNSOUND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Give a listen at: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Glass.html#SU07 Jess (ofJapan) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:50:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: New at Chicago Review + Holiday Offer Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Chicago Review has posted some new material to its website: http:// humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ + the first part of C.D. Wright's "Rising, Falling, Hovering." (The second half of which appears in the current issue. A prose note by C.D. on the poem will appear in the next issue.) + the full four-part exchange between John Wilkinson and Peter Riley, beginning with Wilkinson's review of Simon Jarvis's The Unconditional. (Peter Riley's end note --- a reading list of Cambridge poetry --- is exclusive to the web.) + the first part of Kent Johnson's twelve-part critical novella on recent poetry books from the UK, a review of Andrew Duncan. (The current installment is on J.H. Prynne, the next will be on Tim Atkins.) + + + + Still up and available for download: "Numbers Trouble" by Juliana Spahr and Stephanie Young --- and Jennifer Ashton's response. Also up: reviews of Eliot Weinberger, Frederick Seidel, Harryette Mullen, Zak Smith, and Kevin Connolly. + + + + Please consider subscribing to Chicago Review or giving a subscription as a gift for the holidays. As a special offer we'll give you one free back issue for every year you subscribe: a five- year subscription gets the last five issues plus the current number. Issues on offer: 51:1/2 + Christopher Middleton 51:3 + Birds (C.D. Wright, Ray DiPalma, etc.) 51:4/52:1 + Lisa Robertson 52:2/3/4 + Kenneth Rexroth 53:1 + British Poetry Issue Please note the issue or issues of choice in the comments field when you subscribe. Offer expires 12/25/7. Many thanks from Chicago! | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chicago Review 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago Illinois 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 06:31:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Truitt Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Concur - fascinating turf - something incarnate - but someplace too in there the inherent lie, duplicity (double), falseness that keeps one coming back, combing the roster, the lineup, for the/that weakness, which is itself the fascinating fastening: Moe! ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Vincent To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:42:10 PM Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service What a wonderful account - and interp - of this Moe Berg, David! In/of who I have been ignorant. I like the ghost play analysis - tho I will have to revisit the connections you make with Jack Spycer (haha!). Tho Spicer was clearly aware the trajectory of the shadow on the Hiroshima wall. The line between poetry and spying & code-breaking is also there among the Brits in World War II. M-5 (is it?) British Intelligence made use of the 'new criticism' skills of students of IA Richards and William Empson. 7 Types of Ambiguity - as a manual for decoding poems was also good training for decoding enemy scripts. The fact that some of these students - Marxist communists - were also into re communicating secrets to Moscow put another set of ghosts into the works. Apparently the information on how to build the bomb traveled quite easily from Washington to Moscow. Beware the well trained boys from both Princeton and Cambridge. The poem as a double agent! I won't go further with that. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ David Chirot wrote: One of the more truly strange and fascinating tales in the annals of spydom, polylinguistics, newspaper and book addictions, friend of the rich and famous, scientists, writers and social lights, is the professional baseball player Moe Berg, of whom two adult bios and one juvenile readers' accounts have been penned. (ESPN also made a good video bio.) Since he was a lifetime catcher, (after an early in career injury, soley used as a backup, often third string; weak hitter, very good defense), Berg may be thought of as one part of Jack Spicer's battery of pitcher and catcher. As a member of a team of mainly All Star players sent to Japan in 1934 (he'd also gone in '33), Berg, while the team played in another city, took a tour of Tokyo during which he ascended to the top of building and took movie camera footage of the harbor and important buildings of the capital city. These later proved to be his entree into the early days of the OSS, culminating in a mission to attend a war time lecture by Heisenberg in Switzerland and bring back a report of it, to see if any evidence of any work on a Nazi A-bomb. Berg was a bizarre character who grew progressively stranger and more deliberately "mysterious" in later life, letting it be thought that he was still an agent, while actually having been let go after the OSS began to turn into the CIA. Due to his obsessive reading of newspapers--which he would not not let anyone else touch until he had read them, as until then they were "alive"--and his wide reading in obscure topics, Berg became famous in the mid 1930's as a guest on "Information Please" Quiz Shows on the radio. The weird combination of a baseball player with the knowledge of a "professor" made him a huge favorite. To the end of his life he was able to live off of friends and in their homes due to his early celebrity and "connections" across many strati of society. Berg always let it be known that he studied and mastered many languages--though it is unclear how much he really knew or could speak. He was able to create a myth about himself which gave him a freedom from a life of much work (many years of his career he played in very games), and at the same a dependence on others, opening and closing many strange doors during his life. The reason for writing of him in connection with poets and foreign service is that Berg was able to exist in seemingly disparate worlds by the continual manipulation of his self-created image of a man who was very good with words--the vast vocabulary of the memorizer of mountains of information, from the most trivial, obscure and dull to the most significant, useful, and interesting. Adding to this his self-created aura of a quick-study learner of a great number of languages 'dead' and living, Berg was able to wow others impressed by words, from sports writers and PR radio people to professional lecturers, "experts," and his bosses in the OSS. These in turn promoted him--basically Berg became a man who lived by his wits via the creation of a persona who existed only in language. His biographers note that as the years went by, the chasm between his outward persona, with its vast vocabularies, and his inner "emptiness" as an actual person, grew ever wider. The illusions he performed became ever harder to sustain, and the limits of his actual world smaller and smaller. Via the ambiguities of his actual knowledge of languages and vocabularies, roots and grammars, long before he became a professional spy, Berg had created such a niche for himself. When he skipped a ball game to take candestine films, he was in a sense "projecting himself" via these images into his future role as a surveillance-being, a hired listener and reader, a hired "catcher" of (stolen) signs from the "pitcher" of the opposing team. A graduate of Princeton, the third string catcher and radio star, the ambiguous newspaper addict and obscure book collector Mr Berg became involved in the A-bomb saga begun by one of Princeton's most famed future Professors, Albert Einstein. And at the heart of all these events is the activity of words employed in both a "foreign service" and in the service of the creation of a persona who existed sporadically in the "Objectivist" poetry of baseball box sores and much more "under cover" and shadowily, rhizomatically, among the "Curveballs" of languages, words, signs, and in the "stolen signs" and "moving pictures" creating interconnections between baseball diamonds and the fissioning of atomic particles linking the USA and Japan. (Working to see if the Germans had the makings of a Bomb, Berg all along carried within him the cinematic and linguistic seeds of the Bomb's ultimate destinations in Hiroshima, Nagasaki.) In a strange way indeed, Moe Berg is actually a "deep cover" player in the baseball/Hiroshima poetry connections found within Jack Spicer's work, and made fully explicit by that would-be author of an "After Spicer" work, Araki Yasasuda, in the poem "Horsehide and Sunspot, 17 July 1968--Hiroshima Municipal Stadium." From the baseball diamond of Princeton where Einstein later teaches, via a clandestine film made while playing hookey from a ball game, to the Candlestick Park of the pitchers and catchers of Spicer's radio broadcast games, to the fictional poet attending a game in Hiroshima Stadium, one finds the famously flat-footed radio star, spy and catcher, language-obsessed, walking through the 20th century's atomic Holocaust of fissioning, fusioning, fall out particles of atoms and poetry, box scores, coded messages, screaming headlines, obscure and trivial '"faits divers" and a landscape of writing in which the "writing on the wall" is the physically embedded shadow of the last living instant of a human being. From a moving picture image to a shadow fixed in concrete by the light flash of a never before seen sun . . . Baseball games seen by the eyes of a participant/ bench warming player, heard on the radio by a poet of Outside, observed by a fictional poet created by a pseudonymous "late" writer . . . a trajectory of reading and writing moves through identities real, imagined, covert, pseudonymous, dead, ghostly, Outside . . . writers and readers that are themselves fissions, fusions, recorded images and voices, receivers and transmitters of the ghostly, the Outside, the dead, the living-dead, the imagined, the hallucinated, the Shocked, the voluntarily or not covert . . . among forgeries and doublespeak--propaganda and prayers-- a trajectory of energy, mass and light speeding towo/ards a shadow embedded in concrete-- not a "writing ON the wall"--but a writing IN the wall-- a concrete shadow in three dimensions of a light eclipsing the sun in broad daylight-- (in its --or "under cover" of its--darkness are all the words ever written so intermingled they have become --unreadable--or are they now being transmitted in an other way from this cipher of/at the edge, the "last instant"--what sounds come forth from the depths within the wall--or have they all become at once "concrete" and "shadow"- . . . ) (Both the bios for adults of Moe Berg are very good, the other i have yet to read. Moe Berg is also the only person one may find having bios at such sites as Famous Jewish-Americans, the CIA website and many baseball sites and some other espionage ones. Cathers often later in life become radio announcers and managers. The only one who is a kind of relative of Moe Beg is Bob Uecker, the Hall of Fame broadcaster for the Milwaukee Brewers, also a star of the Johnny Carson Show and the tv sit com Mr. Belvedere. Like Berg, Uecker was a famously mediocre hitter--he had a "perfect" . 200 average--the only itcher he could hit was, inexplicably, Sandy Koufax-- --and also very good defesively. He, unlike Berg, was able to use his gift with words as a stand up comedian and a writer--his Carcher in the Wry is a fun read. On Nov 27, 2007 6:51 AM, Dr. Barry S. Alpert wrote: > Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton was intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by this thread might want to read around in these essays: > > > http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html > > http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=1&oref=slogin > > > Barry Alpert > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:30:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: iggy + passenger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just enjoying iggy's "the passenger" on youtube. does he really say "all the clouds and the black guitars"? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:34:15 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Landis Everson In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had not noticed any mention of Landis Eversons' death tho I think I received word of it late last Sunday so I am saying something. At first, his first book made me hopeful about his (new) publisher (only of books, not the journal) and their intent as well as expected quality for future collections. And he wrote some remarkable poems, ones that moved me at moments. I first learned of Everson in Fulcrum #2 where I appeared with him. While I was not impressed with the poems (from the 50's), the fact of Ben Mazer "finding him" before so many others who were, in my estimation, way too far in depth, immersed in the Berkeley Ren., ringtones and all, including friends and former students, THAT PART was impressive, the finding. What was more pronounced was the new material that subsequently followed, an amazing piece appeared in the The Sycamore Review (1 of 2), an awe inspiring chunk in APR, and there was another set in a location that leaves me at this moment. By the time the book came out I was actually excited, which says a lot for someone who is enamored of Blasers essays (see the recent UC collection), sceptical about Spicer (Collected), and only interested in small sections of Duncan (Bow, mainly). What a great poet Landis was, there was poem that in my memory, which all of this is from, I think from SR, called Potatoes and Onions, correct me if I be wrong. The repetition was perfect, not too much Stein. Just the perfect mix of Spicer's playfulness with Duncan's loft and Gilbert's "down to earthiness" to relegate this writing to the most important figures of the round table. When his first book surfaced I remembered that I had read him once in the stacks in some library I was invited to, in Ashbery's Locus Solus (sp?), a journal that was often fancy and flight driven in a way that was distasteful. The pub seemed like it was so locally driven that the gist of the moment, or "history," was absent in so many areas, so purposely removed. I hope I am being clear, and the notion of what I call "new-frenchism," totally derived from attempted translations (best example Tennis Court Oath from JA or Freely Espousing from Schuyler, both of which put them on the map in many ways but have not stood any sense of time from what I have learned from earlier Generations (tho Jimmy immediately escaped it)) a plateau which can be annoying in general, for being the primary tone of each collection. Landis had an interesting "Romaness" to his stance, tactfully appealing but empty on the inscape, an angle of approach that abutted and refuted the new modernist approach of the period. Anyway, to be brutal, from the "closest" to LE I know, I was told that Landis shot himself once in the head with a world war 2 service revolver. There is little else that has come to light, probably since he was an isolated person from what I know of the last five years, let alone earlier when he entirely disappeared. If somebody wishes to share their appreciation of his work, or knows more please tell, feel free to frontchannel, backchannel or give me a call. If not, buy the book, try it out, let me know-- --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:22:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: NY Times re enlarged fotos w/Lincoln, Center of Attention of Camera's Gaze/Murat's Peripheral Space of Photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Murat has written often to this list with his thoughts re images, photographic and otherwise, and in many of his notes he discusses the peripheral areas of a photo, an image, as creating a more democratic field --for thought, investigation, vision--than that of the framed and directed "center of attention." This is among the themes beautifully presented in Murat's book The Peripheral Space of Photography which is at once a philosophical work and a poem, embodying a poetic structure which reveals itself, emerges, "exposes itself," in the reading, rather than being in itself an imposed "center of attention." (Paul Celan: "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself." Celan's statement is one too sadly ignored for the most part still. Imposed poetry is pretty much "the order of the day.") The riots of the last few days and nights in Paris are a manifestation literally of the peripheries in revolt against the "center of attention" of the capital city, where the attention is always directed and framed by sites/sights/cites of order and consumption, of control and carefully structured and managed gazes. The peripheries, neglected and consigned to a form of living oblivion, are the dumping grounds of the city's peripheral populations--the working class, the poor, the emigrants and children of immigrants. For now a Wall of police, helicoptors, fire brigades, is thrown up to keep these peripheries at bay. One can imagine that at some point, the Walls may be literalized and solidified, made huge and concrete, as they have been in other cities, gated communities, Green Zones, borders, and most extremely and repressively in the Occupied Territories. The "Wall of Seperation" becomes a way of "removing from the picture" those peripheral elements of democracy of which Murat writes. In these recently greatly enlarged fotos of Gettysburg on the day of Lincoln's address, Lincoln is discovered, emerging from the crowds, the masses of soldiers and citizens. Yet at the same time, one is very aware of how this figure of the "center of attention" moves among gazes which, as they move towards the peripheries, have their attentions directed elsewhere-inwardly, outwardly, to the sides, up--that is, have a gaze which encompasses a much larger arena of the "historical moment," and signal to the viewer the existence and necessity of an awareness of the peripheral, even as one notes the "center" moving among the "masses." The "distraction/distractedness" of the peripheral gazes, rather than "missing" the "central event," is creating a plurality of events and gazes, desiring the response and attention not soley of the oblivious center, but of that "something more" than a controlled and regimented (literally, among the soliders) existence. The "outside" of desire and vision--moving away from the controlled, focused, directed, managed, policed and framed "center" of power and consumption, which demands the all consuming attention --and obediance--of everyone, no matter how little attention is given to any but a few of them. A poetry of the "exposed" image --and writing--rather than the imposed. (Emerson: the blank and ruin we see in Nature may be within our own eye.) The final lines of the article charge the "inherent bias of the camera" with this construction of vision, though one might well propose that it is the eye of the viewer which has been so constructed, educated, trained, rather than the mechanical device alone: And this is somehow the inherent bias of the camera. It always directs us toward the center of attention, never away to the periphery, even though that is where our attention eventually wanders. Here is the address for the article which has link to the fotos, which truly are extraordinary. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/opinion/28wed4.html?th&emc=th --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:45:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently, the poem is still at least an "operative". After a poem of mine appeared in Claire Dinsmore's Cauldron & Net (Vol. 3), I had one inquiry from an agency asset and one from an apparent British op, who wanted to know more and more. Seems as though my piece was percieved by both as a way to break the code of "Kryptos", the puzzle/sculpture found somewhere on the grounds at Langely. Typically also, they never seemed satisfied with my answers that I intended no such reference, that the poem was simply a poem. Someone recently told me that there are still sites which cite my piece, which I find curious, since, for a time now, that particular Vol of C&N (which also contained a great piece by Lawrence Upton) is down. Gerald S. Remembering fondly Basil Bunting as an op. > What a wonderful account - and interp - of this Moe Berg, David! In/of who > I have > been ignorant. I like the ghost play analysis - tho I will have to revisit > the connections you make with Jack Spycer (haha!). Tho Spicer was clearly > aware the trajectory of the shadow on the Hiroshima wall. > The line between poetry and spying & code-breaking is also there among the > Brits in World War II. M-5 (is it?) British Intelligence made use of the > 'new criticism' skills of students of IA Richards and William Empson. 7 > Types of Ambiguity - as a manual for decoding poems was also good > training for decoding enemy scripts. The fact that some of these > students - Marxist communists - were also into re communicating secrets to > Moscow put another set of ghosts into the works. Apparently the > information on how to build the bomb traveled quite easily from Washington > to Moscow. Beware the well trained boys from both Princeton and Cambridge. > The poem as a double agent! I won't go further with that. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > David Chirot wrote: One of the more truly strange > and fascinating tales in the annals of > spydom, polylinguistics, newspaper and book addictions, friend of the > rich and famous, scientists, writers and social lights, is the > professional baseball player Moe Berg, of whom two adult bios and one > juvenile readers' accounts have been penned. (ESPN also made a good > video bio.) > > > Since he was a lifetime catcher, (after an early in career injury, > soley used as a backup, often third string; weak hitter, very good > defense), Berg may be thought of as one part of Jack Spicer's battery > of pitcher and catcher. > > As a member of a team of mainly All Star players sent to Japan in 1934 > (he'd also gone in '33), Berg, while the team played in another city, > took a tour of Tokyo during which he ascended to the top of building > and took movie camera footage of the harbor and important buildings of > the capital city. These later proved to be his entree into the early > days of the OSS, culminating in a mission to attend a war time lecture > by Heisenberg in Switzerland and bring back a report of it, to see if > any evidence of any work on a Nazi A-bomb. > > Berg was a bizarre character who grew progressively stranger and more > deliberately "mysterious" in later life, letting it be thought that he > was still an agent, while actually having been let go after the OSS > began to turn into the CIA. > > Due to his obsessive reading of newspapers--which he would not not let > anyone else touch until he had read them, as until then they were > "alive"--and his wide reading in obscure topics, Berg became famous in > the mid 1930's as a guest on "Information Please" Quiz Shows on the > radio. The weird combination of a baseball player with the knowledge > of a "professor" made him a huge favorite. To the end of his life he > was able to live off of friends and in their homes due to his early > celebrity and "connections" across many strati of society. > > Berg always let it be known that he studied and mastered many > languages--though it is unclear how much he really knew or could > speak. He was able to create a myth about himself which gave him a > freedom from a life of much work (many years of his career he played > in very games), and at the same a dependence on others, opening and > closing many strange doors during his life. > > The reason for writing of him in connection with poets and foreign > service is that Berg was able to exist in seemingly disparate worlds > by the continual manipulation of his self-created image of a man who > was very good with words--the vast vocabulary of the memorizer of > mountains of information, from the most trivial, obscure and dull to > the most significant, useful, and interesting. Adding to this his > self-created aura of a quick-study learner of a great number of > languages 'dead' and living, Berg was able to wow others impressed by > words, from sports writers and PR radio people to professional > lecturers, "experts," and his bosses in the OSS. These in turn > promoted him--basically Berg became a man who lived by his wits via > the creation of a persona who existed only in language. His > biographers note that as the years went by, the chasm between his > outward persona, with its vast vocabularies, and his inner > "emptiness" as an actual person, grew ever wider. The illusions he > performed became ever harder to sustain, and the limits of his actual > world smaller and smaller. > > Via the ambiguities of his actual knowledge of languages and > vocabularies, roots and grammars, long before he became a > professional spy, Berg had created such a niche for himself. When he > skipped a ball game to take candestine films, he was in a sense > "projecting himself" via these images into his future role as a > surveillance-being, a hired listener and reader, a hired "catcher" of > (stolen) signs from the "pitcher" of the opposing team. > > A graduate of Princeton, the third string catcher and radio star, the > ambiguous newspaper addict and obscure book collector Mr Berg became > involved in the A-bomb saga begun by one of Princeton's > most famed future Professors, Albert Einstein. > > And at the heart of all these events is the activity of words employed > in both a "foreign service" and in the service of the creation of a > persona who existed sporadically in the "Objectivist" poetry of > baseball box sores and much more "under cover" and shadowily, > rhizomatically, among the "Curveballs" of languages, words, signs, and > in the "stolen signs" and "moving pictures" creating > interconnections between baseball diamonds and the fissioning of > atomic particles linking the USA and Japan. > > (Working to see if the Germans had the makings of a Bomb, Berg all > along carried within him the cinematic and linguistic seeds of the > Bomb's ultimate destinations in Hiroshima, Nagasaki.) > > In a strange way indeed, Moe Berg is actually a "deep cover" player in > the baseball/Hiroshima poetry connections found within Jack Spicer's > work, and made fully explicit by that would-be author of an "After > Spicer" work, Araki Yasasuda, in the poem "Horsehide and Sunspot, 17 > July 1968--Hiroshima Municipal Stadium." > > From the baseball diamond of Princeton where Einstein later teaches, > via a clandestine film made while playing hookey from a ball game, to > the Candlestick Park of the pitchers and catchers of Spicer's radio > broadcast games, to the fictional poet attending a game in Hiroshima > Stadium, one finds the famously flat-footed radio star, spy and > catcher, language-obsessed, walking through the 20th century's atomic > Holocaust of fissioning, fusioning, fall out particles of atoms and > poetry, box scores, coded messages, screaming headlines, obscure and > trivial '"faits divers" and a landscape of writing in which the > "writing on the wall" is the physically embedded shadow of the last > living instant of a human being. > > From a moving picture image to a shadow fixed in concrete by the light > flash of a never before seen sun . . . > > Baseball games seen by the eyes of a participant/ bench warming > player, heard on the radio by a poet of Outside, observed by a > fictional poet created by a pseudonymous "late" writer . . . > > a trajectory of reading and writing moves through identities real, > imagined, covert, pseudonymous, dead, ghostly, Outside . . . writers > and readers that are themselves fissions, fusions, recorded images > and voices, receivers and transmitters of the ghostly, the Outside, > the dead, the living-dead, the imagined, the hallucinated, the > Shocked, the voluntarily or not covert . . . among forgeries and > doublespeak--propaganda and prayers-- > > a trajectory of energy, mass and light speeding towo/ards a shadow > embedded in concrete-- > > not a "writing ON the wall"--but a writing IN the wall-- > > a concrete shadow in three dimensions of a light eclipsing the sun in > broad daylight-- > > (in its --or "under cover" of its--darkness are all the words ever > written so intermingled they have become --unreadable--or are they now > being transmitted in an other way from this cipher of/at the edge, the > "last instant"--what sounds come forth from the depths within the > wall--or have they all become at once "concrete" and "shadow"- . . . ) > > (Both the bios for adults of Moe Berg are very good, the other i have > yet to read. Moe Berg is also the only person one may find having > bios at such sites as Famous Jewish-Americans, the CIA website and > many baseball sites and some other espionage ones. > > Cathers often later in life become radio announcers and managers. The > only one who is a kind of relative of Moe Beg is Bob Uecker, the Hall > of Fame broadcaster for the Milwaukee Brewers, also a star of the > Johnny Carson Show and the tv sit com Mr. Belvedere. Like Berg, > Uecker was a famously mediocre hitter--he had a "perfect" . 200 > average--the only itcher he could hit was, inexplicably, Sandy > Koufax-- --and also very good defesively. He, unlike Berg, was able > to use his gift with words as a stand up comedian and a writer--his > Carcher in the Wry is a fun read. > > On Nov 27, 2007 6:51 AM, Dr. Barry S. Alpert > wrote: >> Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton >> was intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by >> this thread might want to read around in these essays: >> >> >> http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html >> >> http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=1&oref=slogin >> >> >> Barry Alpert >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. >> http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:03:56 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: SEGUE 12/1: TYRONE WILLIAMS & SUEYEUN JULIETTE LEE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A new season of the Segue Reading Series begins this Saturday. Come hear:=20 =20 Tyrone Williams & Sueyeun Juliette Lee=20 =20 December 1st 4 pm (punctually!) The Bowery Poetry Club 300 Bowery, just north of Houston New York, NY 10012 =20 Seguefoundation.com, bowerypoetry.com/midsection.htm =20 Tyrone Williams=92 book, c.c., was published by Krupskaya Books in 2002; the chapbooks AAB and Futures, Elections were published in 2004; and the chapbook Musique Noir was publish= ed in 2006. A new book, On Spec, is forthcoming from Omnidawn in 2008.=20 =20 Sueyeun Juliette Lee currently lives in Philadelphia where she edits Corollary Press, a small chapbook series dedicated to new work by wri= ters of color. Her chapbooks include Perfect Villagers (Octopus Books) and Trespass Slightly in (Coconut Poetry). Her first book, = That Gorgeous Feeling, is forthcoming from Coconut Books next spring. Her new work, Mental Commitment Robots was just published by Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs and will be unveiled at = the reading. =20 See you here! =20 Curated by Brenda Iijima and Evelyn Reilly= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:13:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: Need Place to Stay in NYC 1/30 to 2/2/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael Stephens (poet, novelist, playwright, essayist) is looking for a = place to stay in NYC during the AWP convention, which runs from January = 30th through February 2nd. An inexpensive sublet would be possible for = him, or simply a place to crash.=20 If you know of some place please contact me, Burt Kimmelman, at = kimmelman@njit.edu, or Mick Stephens at mick.stephens3@virgin.net. Thanks, Burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:17:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project December In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello friend, We have some extraordinary events in store for you. Love, The Poetry Project=20 =20 Monday, December 3, 8 PM Big Eye; Land at Church City; Boys; Lemon Tree: New Work by Thalia Field, Rick Moody & Laura Vitale An evening of sound work and text by Thalia Field, Rick Moody and Laura Vitale in collaboration with others. The four pieces will run consecutively= , to be followed by a Q&A with the artists. Big Eye is a radio work based on the short story =B3Story Material=B2 by Thalia Field (from Incarnate: Story Material). This piece is an adaptation of the Cyclops episode from the Odyssey. Sound bed and engineering by Laura Vitale. Land at Church City is = a poem adapted for radio, based on the poem of the same name by Thalia Field (from Incarnate: Story Material). Sound bed and engineering by Laura Vitale= . Boys is a short short story by Rick Moody from the late nineties set to new and extant music by Meredith Monk. Lemon Tree is from a series of recent short short stories by Rick Moody all based more on sound and repetition than on conventional ideas of meaning. Sound bed and engineering by Laura Vitale. Thalia Field=B9s books include Point and Line (New Directions, 2000); Incarnate: Story Material (New Directions, 2004); and Ululu (Crown Shrapnel= ) (Coffee House, 2007). Performance works include =B3Melt=B2, =B3Seven Veils=B2 and =B3After the Fall=B2 all in collaboration with Lostwax Dance. Rick Moody is the author of four novels, three collections of stories, and a memoir. His most recent publication is Right Livelihoods: Three Novellas. Laura Vitale graduated from Brown University with a degree in Visual Art. She has been working in radio production and sound design for four years. Her work has aired on WBEZ and appeared at the Third Coast International Audio Festival. Wednesday, December 5, 8 PM Norma Cole & Simon Pettet Norma Cole is a poet, painter and translator. Among her books are Collectiv= e Memory, Do the Monkey, and Spinoza in Her Youth. Forthcoming from Libellum Press is NATURAL LIGHT and from Factory School a book of essays, to be at music. Current translation work includes Danielle Collobert=B9s Journals, Fouad Gabriel Naffah=B9s The Spirit God and the Properties of Nitrogen and Crosscut Universe: Writing on Writing from France. Cole has been the recipient of a Wallace Alexander Gerbode Foundation Award, Gertrude Stein Awards, the Fund for Poetry, and the Foundation for Contemporary Arts. A Canadian by birth, Cole migrated via France to San Francisco where she has lived since 1977. Simon Pettet=B9s most-recently published book of poems is More Winnowed Fragments (Talisman, 2006). His Selected Poems is also still in print and available from the same publisher. He is the author of two classic collaborations with photographer-filmmaker, Rudy Burckhardt, Conversations About Everything and Talking Pictures, and he edited for Blac= k Sparrow the Art Writings of the poet, James Schuyler. "Like Beethoven's Bagatelles", John Ashbery has written, "Simon Pettet's short poems have a great deal to say, and their seeming modest dimensions help rather than hinder his saying it". Friday, December 7, 10 PM The Theatre of a Two-Headed Calf! A New Performance by Lucy Alibar! QURASH CO-LAB! Dyke Squad (a branch of The Theatre of a Two-headed Calf) is a queer collaborative writing and performing team made up of Jess Barbagallo, Laryssa Husiak, Brooke O'Harra and Laura Stinger, directed by Brooke O'Harr= a (with many amazing guest performers). Dyke Squad is pleased to present Room for Cream, a live lesbian soap opera series which will run at La Mama, ever= y Sat. at 5:30pm beginning Jan 08. Dyke Squad came together in order to write and perform queer theater and provide a solid venue to involve and engage queer women in the community. . . . or perhaps to have some not-so-clean dyke fun. The Theatre of a Two-Headed Calf, founded by Brooke O=B9Harra (director) and Brendan Connelly (composer), is a collective of artists and designers who are working in concert to explore new and often impossible means of opening up and presenting dramatic texts. Their new production, Drums of the Waves of Horikawa is at HERE Arts Center from October 24 - November 17. Lucy Alibar's works include Juicy and Delicious, a bluegrass musical about sex and Southern food (The Tank, Collective Unconscious); A Friend of Dorothy, about Judy Garland (Best of Montreal Fringe nomination, Avignon, Bath, and Edinburgh Festivals); Gorgeous Raptors, about girls who transform into dinosaurs (Young Playwrights Festival, Cherry Lane Theatre). This summer, Mommy Says I=B9m Pretty on the Insides and Home Baking Made Easy (with Zoe Aja Moore) were performed at Williamstown Theatre Festival. Lucy is an Affiliated Artist of New Georges, and a member of EST=B9s Youngblood. QURASH CO-LAB (Queers United Resisting Assimilation into Societal Heteronormativity) presents... T-Phag ProDuct #2 Chase My Hole, an 8 minute collaborative 'ilm (like 'zine) that originated to give voice to working class queer artists. The film itself is a double projection combining 16mm and 8 mm film as well as a live musical score. In attendance will be John Parker, a conceptual artist who created QURASH to build global-community amongst queer artists. Parker also specializes in oil painting, woodcut printmaking,and drawing. His work queers elements of concept, sound, form, line, color and texture. He completed an BFA in Art at the University of Texas. Parker also works in Super 8 film. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:41:49 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: japanese apricot and cranberry red In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable that=B9s the color of the latest volume of Noon journal of the short poem which is surely one of the most beautiful of its kind, both in production, hand-bound, and in content; rich diversity in form, single lines, couplets, paragraphs, small dialogues and experimental number 5 is now out, 80 pages published in an edition of 200 I=B9ll refrain from quoting, except for these wonderful lines by Chris McCabe= ; Three cheers for those who can=B9t be there Why can=B9t they be there? I think they=B9re going to be there to order:=20 noonpress@mac.com The edition is limited to 200 copies, bound by hand. (Single issue, sent via airmail: 14 US dollars / 10 euros / 7 British pounds / 1500 yen. British bank cheques and international postal money orders made payable to Philip Rowland, cash, and international reply coupons are easily acceptable forms of payment. If none of these methods are convenient for you, let me know and we'll find another way.) Philip Rowland, editor Noon: Journal of the Short Poem Minami Motomachi 4-49-506 Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0012 Japan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:58:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Baraban Subject: Re: i'm not there In-Reply-To: <20071126.190224.604.17.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve D. If you did catch a second of motorcylce accident presentation in "I'm Not There" you have admirable visual acuity. However I think it was strange to go see this movie with a checklist of things you expected to see in the back of your mind. It is very clearly a wild fantasia created by one of USAmerica's most remarkable film-makers, Todd Haynes, bouncing off the life and times of Bobby Zimmerman. I liked that it was at times Fellini-esque or Godard-ian or imitating the Pennebacker Dylan documentary I've never seen, and Godard knows what else. (The scene in the diner in which the "movie actor aspect of Dylan" first converses with his French-born abstract artist wife has dialogue adapted from a cafe scene in JLG's "Masculine Feminine": "What would you say is the center of your world?" "Well, I'm 22...I would say myself"). As this is a poetics list, I should note that the scenes involving Dylan and the young Allen Ginsberg are a hoot. At one point they are looking at an outdoor statue of the crucified Jesus and declaiming witticisms. Bob eventaully calls out "can't you do any of your *old* material???" There's so much more to say about this film. Suffice it for now to say that it is a daring semi-biographical hybrid like Gus Van Sant's movie about the last days of Kurt Cobain. And the sound of BD's post-motorcycle accident musical comeback *is* represented in the moving presentation of "Going to Acapulco" from the Basement Tapes in the final enigmatic section concerning Dylan as an aging Billy the Kid trying to protect the old weird American town of Riddle. --- "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A > SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE > ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT > COME BACK PERIOD OOPS > MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND > FORTH IN CHRONOLOGY > A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la > strada and particuarlly > 8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award > material my wife didn't > know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers > and closer to > actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:31:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: picture of giant chipmunk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:11:38 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Re: i'm not there Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 I haven't seen the film and think it has numerous flaws - one being that it= was dreamed up and filmed, for one. Other than that it's a masterpiece of = cinema. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve d. dalachinsky" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: i'm not there > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:22:01 -0500 >=20 >=20 > i'm floored aldon tho yes i do understand and flawed is flawed one way > or the other >=20 > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:23:24 -0500 ALDON L NIELSEN > writes: > > I saw it more as being really flawed with a few good things -- On=20 > > Mon, Nov 26, 2007 07:02 PM, "steve d. dalachinsky"=20 > > wrote: > > > > > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE > > >ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT COME BACK PERIOD OOPS > > >MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND FORTH IN CHRONOLO= GY > > >A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la strada and particuarl= ly > > >8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award material my wife didn't > > >know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers and closer to > > >actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > > > > We are enslaved by > > what makes us free -- intolerable > > paradox at the heart of speech. > > --Robert Kelly > > > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > The Pennsylvania State University > > 116 Burrowes > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > > =3D San Diego Real Estate Listings Search the MLS for over 10,000 available properties in sunny San Diego, Cal= ifornia. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D61f319c3967167e6fc32a= 24097b28114 --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:36:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "Haunting the Paleolithic" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My latest piece of Digital Literary Art: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Ghosts/title.htm -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:18:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Viz Lit & Ghost Signage Comments: cc: Poetryetc , UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ New on the blog Viz Lit, that is, digital camera in hand, the search to find visual analogs (objective correlatives?) for whatever it may be: a literary form, a specific memory - a heightened moment in a romance - the visual complications in a metaphysical conceit, a particular image inside a specific poem, or, pushing it, something found in a theory or practice... Why not some examples? ["Persimmons", lost, early Robert Creeley Lyric, an Abbreviated Arkansas Black Apple Sonnet, Ezra Pound's nuts, & a Sunday Morning Meeting of Poets at the Intersection 19th & Valencia]. & Ghost Signage or The ATA House of Clifford Hengst &, if you are in the San Francisco Bay, I am reading tomorrow evening with Pat Reeed, Thursday, 7:30 at Pegasus Books on Shattuck Ave. in Berkeley, hosted by Clay Banes. As always, comments appreciated. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:51:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN, by Dave Black In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Conrad, the absolute last person... I was thinking I'd have poetry slaves. A small, highly literate group, devoted to ME. I'm a narcissist. & being a narcissist & a poet is torture. If I can't enjoy my narcissism, am I really a narcissist? But to answer your question, yes. I'd write poems. I'd even send them to non-existent journals. What the fuck. I'd stay drunk. I'd do every drug possible. Before long, I'd be so delusional it wouldn't matter if I were the only me. I'd have plenty of personalities to keep me company. Questions of the type you ask are enough to drive one to drink, but they should be asked. Fuck yeah, I'd still write. Maybe the utter hopelessness of the situation would bring out my best. I wonder if Samuel Beckett would have continued writing if he were the last living human? Of course, you're right about the libraries. & that, truly, is sad. CA Conrad wrote: Steve Russell wrote: >>On the other hand, suppose a decent number of libraries survive. The world, post Apocalypse, >>could be an austere paradise. I love survivalist lit. But I'm not the healthiest kid on the block. >>>>> Steve, yes, I know what you mean. The FANTASY of this is kind of terrific. When I was a kid there was a weird Charlton Heston film I was obsessed with called OMEGA MAN, set in stark post Armageddon Los Angeles. One of the things I liked to do was stare into the background of the outdoor shots to see cars on the distant freeways that you weren't supposed to notice. In reality the libraries will look much like Baghdad's libraries, ash. I wish the poetry collection at Buffalo had some sort of nuclear war provisions. Michael Basinski should request funds for this in his budget. We'll all crawl our way to Buffalo. Here's a question though, and I'm serious: Would you still write poems if you were the LAST person on Earth? The absolute LAST person. Not even any hope of offspring or anyone. Because I know I would! To me, to ask What Would Be The Point in such a case is like asking WHAT IS THE POINT for writing them now. NOT that I don't want people to read my poems! I guess I'm just saying I think I would still want to write them. But maybe not. Maybe I'd be so miserable I wouldn't want to do anything. Being the only person on Earth sounds awful. But at the moment with this ridiculous "holiday" shopping season scurrying around me at top speed it sounds kind of fucking nice! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:28:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Devaney Subject: Please come to Bowery Poetry Club Thurs night! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, please come to the book party for my new book on Thursday Nov 29th if you can! All best, Tom Suzi Winson and Fish Drum invite you to celebrate the release of A SERIES OF SMALL BOXES by THOMAS DEVANEY Thursday, November 29, 2007. 6-7:45 pm open admission The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery * New York City at the foot of First St. bet Houston & Bleecker 212.614.0505 http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ http://www.fishdrum.com/ --from "The Car, a Window, and World War II" Ask yourself this question: Does silence have to mean a lack of sound? I hate the lack of sound myself, though crave the silence. Yesterday, three people were shot at a check-point. The difference between a moment of silence and a decade of silence. A lone piano plays into our daily commute. Gravel, pretzel bits, a penny on the floor. VACUUM: 50 Cents. Sonic Youth behind another pane of glass, glazed. They didn’t invent flesh as material, only the name: “Adaptation Studies.” The late light through the painted window becomes part of the notes on the page. Trace the tire marks, the fuel leak on the carpet, call them “relics.” She was emphatic: “I don’t read the quotes, I skip them.” A statement which clearly gave her a lot of satisfaction. This was years ago, hence the spaces, hence the space. - Thomas Devaney, A Series of Small Boxes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:13:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT/Wittgnstein's Mistress follows the premise In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Conrad, If I were the last person alive, I'd read this: Wittgenstein's Mistress is a novel unlike anything David Markson--or anyone else--has ever written before. It is the story of a woman who is convinced--and, astonishingly, will ultimately convince the reader as well--that she is the only person left on earth. Presumably she is mad. And yet so appealing is her character, and so witty and seductive her narrative voice, that we will follow her hypnotically as she unloads the intellectual baggage of a lifetime in a series of irreverent meditations on everything and everybody from Brahms to sex to Heidegger to Helen of Troy. And as she contemplates aspects of the troubled past which have brought her to her present state--obviously a metaphor for ultimate loneliness--so too will her drama become one of the few certifiably original fictions of our time. "The novel I liked best this year," said the Washington Times upon the book's publication in 1988; "one dizzying, delightful, funny passage after another. . . . Wittgenstein's Mistress gives proof positive that the experimental novel can produce high, pure works of imagination." "Addresses formidable philosophic questions with tremendous wit . . . remarkable . . . a novel that can be parsed like a sentence; it is that well made."--New York Times Book Review "Unsettling, shimmering . . . compelling."--Publishers Weekly "A work of genius . . . an erudite, breathtakingly cerebral novel whose prose is crystal and whose voice rivets and whose conclusion defies you not to cry."--David Foster Wallace "Brilliant and often hilarious . . . Markson is one working novelist I can think of who can claim affinities with Joyce, Gaddis, and Lowry, no less than with Beckett."--San Francisco Review of Books "Provocative, learned, wacko, brilliant, and extravagantly comic. This is a nonesuch novel, a formidable work of art by a writer who kicks tradition out the window, then kicks the window out the window, letting a splendid new light into the room."--William Kennedy "In a just world, Wittgenstein's Mistress would be offered notice on the cover of the New York Review of Books. Let good readers therefore come and make up the difference."--Gordon Lish "I can't think of the last time I held my breath when I read a book, waiting for the author to make one slip. Markson is as precise and dazzling as Joyce. His wit and awesome power of observation make this fictional world utterly convincing. I couldn't put this book down. I can't forget it. While Markson himself would deplore the use of a cliche, all I can say is that this book is original, beautiful, and an absolute masterpiece. Anyone who reads it can't think about the world the same way."--Ann Beattie "Wittgenstein's Mistress is an original and haunting work. David Markson brilliantly demonstrates how art and memory can both heighten and leaven grief."--Hilma Wolitzer "Beautifully conceived. An irresistible, captivating book!"--Walter Abish "Beautifully realized. Initially as hypnotically calming as an afternoon snowfall, then, by stages as menacing and yet thrilling as a nocturnal blizzard. This is Markson in the post-Beckett Gaddis country, staking his own claim, in a territory nobody else has the courage or the strength to inhabit and survive in."--James McCourt (back to full catalog) (back to top) Poetry CA Conrad wrote: Steve Russell wrote: >>On the other hand, suppose a decent number of libraries survive. The world, post Apocalypse, >>could be an austere paradise. I love survivalist lit. But I'm not the healthiest kid on the block. >>>>> Steve, yes, I know what you mean. The FANTASY of this is kind of terrific. When I was a kid there was a weird Charlton Heston film I was obsessed with called OMEGA MAN, set in stark post Armageddon Los Angeles. One of the things I liked to do was stare into the background of the outdoor shots to see cars on the distant freeways that you weren't supposed to notice. In reality the libraries will look much like Baghdad's libraries, ash. I wish the poetry collection at Buffalo had some sort of nuclear war provisions. Michael Basinski should request funds for this in his budget. We'll all crawl our way to Buffalo. Here's a question though, and I'm serious: Would you still write poems if you were the LAST person on Earth? The absolute LAST person. Not even any hope of offspring or anyone. Because I know I would! To me, to ask What Would Be The Point in such a case is like asking WHAT IS THE POINT for writing them now. NOT that I don't want people to read my poems! I guess I'm just saying I think I would still want to write them. But maybe not. Maybe I'd be so miserable I wouldn't want to do anything. Being the only person on Earth sounds awful. But at the moment with this ridiculous "holiday" shopping season scurrying around me at top speed it sounds kind of fucking nice! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:27:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Vast Nazi archive opens to public - Yahoo! News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/ap_on_re_eu/nazi_archive --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shin Yu Pai Subject: poetry at RISD tonight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Shin Yu Pai poetry reading and slide lecture RISD Tap Room 226 Benefit Street 8 p.m. FREE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:17:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: Poetry and the Foreign Service In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I should have an opinion on this subject, or on both subjects, being an object of them. --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there's another great book by Paz, published towards the end of his life - In Light of India. aryanil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth Lepson" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service > yes & Eliot has translated, w others, poems abt India by Paz when he was > an > ambassador there--A Tale of Two Gardens. > > > On 11/27/07 11:49 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" > wrote: > >> I seem to remember that Eliot Weinberger wrote something about him in >> Montemora years ago. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Dr. Barry S. Alpert >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, 27 November, 2007 2:51:17 PM >> Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service >> >> Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton >> was >> intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by >> this >> thread might want to read around in these essays: >> >> >> http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html >> >> http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=1&oref=slogin >> >> >> Barry Alpert >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. >> http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1154 - Release Date: > 11/27/2007 11:40 AM > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: i'm not there In-Reply-To: <20071128201138.57C1313EF1@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline well yep some of the editing is delicious and Blanchett steals the film hands down i liked it pretty much up until the Gere section, altho i'll give you the Fellini carnivale scans so . . . erm why end it there . . . why not at least dabble in his troubadour present On 11/28/07, Christophe Casamassima wrote: > I haven't seen the film and think it has numerous flaws - one being that it was dreamed up and filmed, for one. Other than that it's a masterpiece of cinema. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "steve d. dalachinsky" > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: i'm not there > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:22:01 -0500 > > > > > > i'm floored aldon tho yes i do understand and flawed is flawed one way > > or the other > > > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:23:24 -0500 ALDON L NIELSEN > > writes: > > > I saw it more as being really flawed with a few good things -- On > > > Mon, Nov 26, 2007 07:02 PM, "steve d. dalachinsky" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE > > > >ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT COME BACK PERIOD OOPS > > > >MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND FORTH IN CHRONOLOGY > > > >A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la strada and particuarlly > > > >8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award material my wife didn't > > > >know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers and closer to > > > >actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > > > > > > We are enslaved by > > > what makes us free -- intolerable > > > paradox at the heart of speech. > > > --Robert Kelly > > > > > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > > The Pennsylvania State University > > > 116 Burrowes > > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > > > > > > > > > = > San Diego Real Estate Listings > Search the MLS for over 10,000 available properties in sunny San Diego, California. > http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=61f319c3967167e6fc32a24097b28114 > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina E Lovin Subject: Re: picture of giant chipmunk In-Reply-To: <474F59E4.3010702@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the chipmunk is that big, imagine the size of the nuts. I'm a native Illinoisan, my dad was a conservation for the state of Illinois in Knox County (about 90 mile WNW from Normal--really from normal) for twenty years. I don't remember seeing chipmunks that big, although there were reports of giant sewer rats in Peoria, but a good divorce lawyer took care of that vermin infestation. I miss the wide-open sky of Illinois--you know the one with the roiling black clouds (aka tornadoes, twisters, cyclones). I used to be in a writing group with folks from ISU. I really do miss them. Congrats on the book! Christina -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Gabriel Gudding Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:32 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: picture of giant chipmunk http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:45:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: "Haunting the Paleolithic" In-Reply-To: <00b901c831fe$599154d0$0200a8c0@Weishaus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Fascinating work Joel, full of shudder and mystery! - Peter Ciccariello NEW RELEASE UNCOMMON VISION - The Art of Peter Ciccariello http://uncommon-vision.blogspot.com/ 66 pp. 42 color plates. On Nov 28, 2007 3:36 PM, Joel Weishaus wrote: > My latest piece of Digital Literary Art: > http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Ghosts/title.htm > > -Joel > -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:55:39 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: picture of giant chipmunk In-Reply-To: <474F59E4.3010702@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In Shanghai, you can buy pet chipmunks from street vendors (but they're not that big). Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:56:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: i'm not there MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit see it chris then SEE IT On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:11:38 +0800 Christophe Casamassima writes: > I haven't seen the film and think it has numerous flaws - one being > that it was dreamed up and filmed, for one. Other than that it's a > masterpiece of cinema. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "steve d. dalachinsky" > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: i'm not there > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:22:01 -0500 > > > > > > i'm floored aldon tho yes i do understand and flawed is flawed > one way > > or the other > > > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:23:24 -0500 ALDON L NIELSEN > > > writes: > > > I saw it more as being really flawed with a few good things -- > On > > > Mon, Nov 26, 2007 07:02 PM, "steve d. dalachinsky" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A SECOND OF > MOTOR CYCLE > > > >ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT COME BACK > PERIOD OOPS > > > >MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND FORTH IN > CHRONOLOGY > > > >A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la strada and > particuarlly > > > >8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award material my > wife didn't > > > >know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers and closer > to > > > >actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > > > > > > We are enslaved by > > > what makes us free -- intolerable > > > paradox at the heart of speech. > > > --Robert Kelly > > > > > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > > The Pennsylvania State University > > > 116 Burrowes > > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > > > > > > > > > = > San Diego Real Estate Listings > Search the MLS for over 10,000 available properties in sunny San > Diego, California. > http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=61f319c3967167e6fc32a 24097b28114 > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: i'm not there MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks for this steve On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:58:26 -0800 Stephen Baraban writes: > Steve D. > > If you did catch a second of motorcylce accident > presentation in "I'm Not There" you have admirable > visual acuity. However I think it was strange to go > see this movie with a checklist of things you expected > to see in the back of your mind. It is very clearly a > wild fantasia created by one of USAmerica's most > remarkable film-makers, Todd Haynes, bouncing off the > life and times of Bobby Zimmerman. I liked that it > was at times Fellini-esque or Godard-ian or imitating > the Pennebacker Dylan documentary I've never seen, and > Godard knows what else. (The scene in the diner in > which the "movie actor aspect of Dylan" first > converses with his French-born abstract artist wife > has dialogue adapted from a cafe scene in JLG's > "Masculine Feminine": "What would you say is the > center of your world?" "Well, I'm 22...I would say > myself"). > > As this is a poetics list, I should note that the > scenes involving Dylan and the young Allen Ginsberg > are a hoot. At one point they are looking at an > outdoor statue of the crucified Jesus and declaiming > witticisms. Bob eventaully calls out "can't you do > any of your *old* material???" > > There's so much more to say about this film. Suffice > it for now to say that it is a daring > semi-biographical hybrid like Gus Van Sant's movie > about the last days of Kurt Cobain. And the sound of > BD's post-motorcycle accident musical comeback *is* > represented in the moving presentation of "Going to > Acapulco" from the Basement Tapes in the final > enigmatic section concerning Dylan as an aging Billy > the Kid trying to protect the old weird American town > of Riddle. > > --- "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > > > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A > > SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE > > ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT > > COME BACK PERIOD OOPS > > MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND > > FORTH IN CHRONOLOGY > > A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la > > strada and particuarlly > > 8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award > > material my wife didn't > > know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers > > and closer to > > actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ ___________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:01:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: picture of giant chipmunk In-Reply-To: <474F59E4.3010702@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > guh, I am REALLY distressed that this is a FAKE chipmunk. I was anticipating a Paleolithic-mammal discovery, much the same way that scientists recently found, trufax, that Antarctica used to be occupied by five-foot-tall penguins with spear-like beaks. You get a girl all wound up, then you let her down? What kind of poethics is that? gee, in search of a genuine chipmunk (hey, book title!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:35:25 +1100 Reply-To: John Tranter Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: "Announcing Jacket 34 -- Late 2007 -- special stocking-stuffer issue!" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 Announcing Jacket 34 -- Late 2007 -- special stocking-stuffer issue! http://jacketmagazine.com/34/index.shtml=20 Editor: John Tranter - Associate Editor: Pam Brown =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D F E A T U R E : Contemporary Turkish Poetry=20 A selection of poems and essays drawn from =ABEda: An Anthology of Contempo= rary Turkish Poetry=BB edited by Murat Nemet-Nejat, published by Talisman H= ouse, New Jersey, and available through Small Press Distribution. With than= ks to Talisman House.=20 F E A T U R E : Post-Marginal Positions: Women and the UK Experimental/ Ava= nt-Garde Poetry Community, moderated by Catherine Wagner=20 F E A T U R E : 'Between revelation and persuasion': Eric Mottram and Rober= t Duncan: A Compilation by Amy Evans and Shamoon Zamir F E A T U R E : Lucas Klein: =ABSt=E8les=BB Volumes 1 and 2, by Victor Sega= len=20 F E A T U R E : =ABAbout Now=BB, by Joanne Kyger, Introduction by Linda Rus= so=20 For decades, Joanne Kyger has played a crucial role in California's poetry = scene. Her poetry has been influenced by her studies in Zen Buddhism and he= r connection to the poets of Black Mountain, the San Francisco Renaissance,= and the Beat Generation. In this issue of Jacket: =3D=3D=3D Linda Russo's Introduction to the book, =3D=3D=3D Jane Falk provides a reader's response, and =3D=3D=3D Dale Smith looks at Kyger's developing poetics through her long c= areer, and =3D=3D=3D Robert Adamson presents two poems written for Joanne Kyger. =3D=3D=3D Note: Jacket 11 contains a multi-voiced feature on Joanne Kyger e= dited by Linda Russo:=20 http://jacketmagazine.com/11/index.shtml F E A T U R E : Canadian Poetry: Language Acts: Anglo-Qu=E9bec Poetry, 1976= to the 21st Century -- Editors: Jason Camlot & Todd Swift =3D=3D=3D Jason Camlot and Todd Swift: Introduction to =ABLanguage Acts: An= glo-Qu=E9bec Poetry, 1976 to the 21st Century=BB=20 =3D=3D=3D Robert Allen: Seven poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Oana Avasilichioaei: from =ABGossip in the Valley=BB=20 =3D=3D=3D Stephanie Bolster: Six poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Asa Boxer: Four poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Jason Camlot: The Debaucher=20 =3D=3D=3D Angela Carr: Six Poems from the Rose Concordance=20 =3D=3D=3D Leonard Cohen: Three poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Mary di Michele: Four poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Endre Farkas: Four poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Raymond Filip: Three poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Jon Paul Fiorentino: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D artie gold: Five Jockey Poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Michael Harris: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D D.G. Jones: Six poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Steve Luxton: Four poems=20 =3D=3D=3D David McGimpsey: Four poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Donald McGrath: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Stephen Morrissey: Three poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Er=EDn Moure: Map of Calgary=20 =3D=3D=3D Robyn Sarah: Six poems=20 =3D=3D=3D David Solway: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Carmine Starnino: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Andrew Steinmetz: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Nathalie Stephens: Four poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Todd Swift: Four poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Ruth Taylor: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Peter Van Toorn: Six poems =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I N T E R V I E W : From the Hither Side: Innovative Women Poets - Cynthia = Hogue and Elisabeth Frost in conversation with Jane Joritz-Nakagawa=20 I N T E R V I E W : Jackson Mac Low in conversation: Making Poetry =ABOther= wise=BB, 28 January 2001=20 I N T E R V I E W : Thirteen Ways of Looking At A Vermont Poet: Bob Arnold = in conversation with Gerald Hausman=20 I N T E R V I E W : Shanxing Wang in conversation with Nathan Brown=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D A R T I C L E : What's Really Going on in =93Persicos Odi=94? Art Beck on H= orace.=20 A R T I C L E : Jeff Derksen: =ABThese Things Form Poems When I Allow It=BB= : after John Newlove=20 A R T I C L E : Laurie Duggan: On Gael Turnbull's =ABCollected Poems=BB, wi= th a digression on his aleatory, kinetic and other off-the-page practices= =20 A R T I C L E : John Felstiner: =ABIt looks just like the Cascades=BB - Gar= y Snyder's Eye for the Real World=20 A R T I C L E : Thomas Fink: The Poetry of Questions=20 A R T I C L E : Noah Eli Gordon: Considering Chapbooks: A Brief History of = the Little Book=20 A R T I C L E : Noah Eli Gordon: Considering Chapbooks: Belladonna* books= =20 A R T I C L E : Philip Metres =ABd.a.levy & the mimeograph revolution=BB, e= dited by Larry Smith and Ingrid Swanberg=20 A R T I C L E : Jonathan Morse: The Startle Reflex: Some Episodes from the = Lives of Ezra Pound's Language=20 A R T I C L E : Jennifer Moxley: Rimbaud's Foolish Virgin, Wieners's =ABFem= inine Soliloquy,=BB and the Metaphorical Resistance of the Lyric Body=20 A R T I C L E : Sandeep Parmar: Mina Loy's 'Colossus' and the Myth of Arthu= r Cravan=20 A R T I C L E : Brian M. Reed: 'Lost Already Walking': Caroline Bergvall's = =ABVia=BB A R T I C L E : Anthony Stephens: Reflecting tragedy: Nietzsche, Lacan, Nar= cissus=20 A R T I C L E : John Temple: Haven of the Heart: The Poetry of John Wieners= =20 A R T I C L E : John Emil Vincent: Escaping the future: John Ashbery's =ABG= irls on the run=BB =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D R E V I E W S : Language Poetry by the Bay: James Sherry: =ABThe Grand Piano=BB Project: ...an ongoing experiment in collective autobiography by ten writers identif= ied with Language poetry in San Francisco. It takes its name from a coffeeh= ouse at 1607 Haight Street, where from 1976-79 the authors took part in a r= eading and performance series. The writing project, begun in 1998, was unde= rtaken as an online collaboration, first via an interactive web site and la= ter through a listserv. =3D=3D=3D =ABThe Grand Piano=BB Part 3 reviewed Earlier reviews of the project:=20 =3D=3D=3D =ABThe Grand Piano=BB Part 1 - in Jacket 32 =3D=3D=3D =ABThe Grand Piano=BB Part 2 - in Jacket 32 =3D=3D=3D Li Yun Alvarado: =ABHow Long She'll Last in This World=BB, by Mar= =EDa Mel=E9ndez=20 =3D=3D=3D Cristiana Baik: =ABDICTEE=BB by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha=20 =3D=3D=3D Douglas Barbour: =ABThe Goldfinches of Baghdad=BB by Robert Adams= on=20 =3D=3D=3D Christopher Barnes: =ABLemon Shark=BB by Luke Beesley=20 =3D=3D=3D Ben Lyle Bedard: =ABREAL=BB by Stephen Ratcliffe=20 =3D=3D=3D Joel Bettridge: =ABMirrors for Gold=BB, by Roberto Tejada=20 =3D=3D=3D Lisa Bower: =ABErosion's Pull=BB, by Maureen Owen=20 =3D=3D=3D Lisa Bower: =ABLetter from the Lawn=BB by Bobbi Lurie=20 =3D=3D=3D Joseph Bradshaw: =ABInbox: (A Reverse Memoir) =BB, Noah Eli Gordo= n=20 =3D=3D=3D Norene Cashen: =ABCleavage=BB by Chris Tysh=20 =3D=3D=3D Matthew Cooperman: =ABA Fiddle Pulled from the Throat of a Sparro= w=BB, by Noah Eli Gordon=20 =3D=3D=3D Eugenia Demuro: =ABStet.=BB by Jos=E9 Kozer. Trans. Mark Weiss.= =20 =3D=3D=3D Mark Dickinson: =ABThe Moon Sees the One=BB by Candice Ward=20 =3D=3D=3D Alexander Dickow: =ABI'm The Man Who Loves You=BB, by Amy King=20 =3D=3D=3D Sarah Dowling: =ABThe Material of Poetry: Sketches for a Philosop= hical Poetics=BB, by Gerald Bruns.=20 =3D=3D=3D Michael Duszat: =ABAn Elemental Thing=BB, by Eliot Weinberger=20 =3D=3D=3D Curtis Faville: Aram Saroyan: =ABComplete Minimalist Poems=BB, an= d Robert Grenier: =AB100 Sentences / 100 Phrases=BB. Translated from Englis= h into French by Martin Richet with the Author.=20 =3D=3D=3D Forrest Gander: =ABA Worldly Country=BB by John Ashbery=20 =3D=3D=3D Alan Gilbert: =ABHow to Read a Poem=BB by Terry Eagleton=20 =3D=3D=3D Daniel Godston: =ABBlue Lash=BB by James Armstrong=20 =3D=3D=3D Daniel Godston: =ABFulcrum: an annual of poetry and aesthetics=BB= Number 5, 2006 (edited by Philip Nikolayev and Katia Kapovich)=20 =3D=3D=3D Piotr Gwiazda: Professing Poetry: a review of =ABPoetry and Pedag= ogy: The challenge of the contemporary=BB, edited by Joan Retallack and Jul= iana Spahr=20 =3D=3D=3D Tom Hibbard: =ABInfinity Subsections=BB by Mark DuCharme=20 =3D=3D=3D Julia Istomina: =ABRise Up=BB, by Matthew Rohrer=20 =3D=3D=3D Tim Keane: =ABThe Poems of Catullus: A Bilingual Edition=BB, tran= slated with commentary by Peter Green=20 =3D=3D=3D Astrid Lorange: =ABThe Material Poem=BB edited by James Stuart=20 =3D=3D=3D Nicole Mauro: =ABCornstarch Figurine=BB by Elizabeth Treadwell=20 =3D=3D=3D Carol Middleton: =ABAbout Writing, Seven Essays, Four Letters and= Five Interviews=BB, by Samuel R Delany=20 =3D=3D=3D Micaela Morrissette: =ABThe Open Curtain=BB, by Brian Evenson=20 =3D=3D=3D Micaela Morrissette: =ABBornholm Night-Ferry=BB, by Aidan Higgins= =20 =3D=3D=3D Micaela Morrissette: =ABThe Exquisite=BB, by Laird Hunt=20 =3D=3D=3D Micaela Morrissette: =ABNorth & South=BB, by Martha King=20 =3D=3D=3D Richard Owens: =ABBlack Diamond Golden Boy Takes Bull By Horns=BB= by Geoffrey Gatza=20 =3D=3D=3D Craig Santos Perez: =ABPuerta Del Sol=BB by Francisco Arag=F3n=20 =3D=3D=3D Peter Robinson: =ABThe Collected Poems of Ted Berrigan=BB edited = by Alice Notley with Anselm Berrigan and Edmund Berrigan, Introduction and = Notes by Alice Notley=20 =3D=3D=3D Larissa Shmailo: =ABLetters from Aldenderry=BB, by Philip Nikolay= ev=20 =3D=3D=3D James Stuart: =ABMediated=BB, by Carol Mirakove, and =ABThe Arts = of Islam: Treasures from the Nasser D Khalili Collection=BB=20 P O E M S:=20 =3D=3D=3D Robert Adamson: Two poems (for Joanne Kyger)=20 =3D=3D=3D Louis Armand: Six Parts for a Requiem=20 =3D=3D=3D Jen Crawford: sixteen=20 =3D=3D=3D Laurie Duggan: Two poems from 'The skies over Thanet'=20 =3D=3D=3D Joel Deane: Tuk-tuk=20 =3D=3D=3D Jesse Glass: Two poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Scott Glassman and Sheila E. Murphy: from =ABSection 2=BB =3D=3D=3D Philip Hammial: Two poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Ella Holcombe : The magazine=20 =3D=3D=3D Vincent Katz: Three poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Poems by Ko Un, translated from Korean by Brother Anthony of Taiz= =E9, Young-moo Kim, and Gary Gach=20 =3D=3D=3D Katy Lederer: In the Hole=20 =3D=3D=3D Philip Metres: The Old Haunts: A Guided Tour=20 =3D=3D=3D Carol Mirakove: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Aryanil Mukherjee: Two Poems=20 =3D=3D=3D John Newlove: Three poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Benjamin Paloff: Four poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Toma=9E =8Aalamun: Two poems, trans. Brian Henry=20 =3D=3D=3D Peter Dale Scott: Five poems=20 =3D=3D=3D Spencer Selby: Text From My Visual Book=20 =3D=3D=3D Elizabeth Smither: Practising scales=20 =3D=3D=3D Grzegorz Wr=F3blewski: Two poems: Migraine; Jesse Owens and Luz L= ong=20 A N A S I D E : The Preservative Qualities of the Martini Diet When Schlesinger turned 60, he became more aware of his age. After a trip t= o the cathedral in Florence, he wrote:=20 =93As I went into the Duomo, it occurred to me that I have been visiting ch= urches in Europe for 45 years, and that they have really done very little f= or me - my fault, not theirs, of course; but there it is. Why should I wast= e my declining years going into churches?... I will simplify life by abando= ning the inspection of churches, as in earlier years I have abandoned balle= t, metaphysics, linguistics and other subjects that, however estimable, are= , alas, not for me.=94 A decade later, lunching with two younger men in 198= 7, Schlesinger observed, =93I could not help noting the generational differ= ences in diet. I had a martini and grilled double lamb chops. They had Perr= ier and chef's salad. I suppose that their diet is better for them. But min= e is more fun. I understand the disappearance of cigarettes these days; the= y are poison. But why has hard liquor, the staff of life, yielded to white = wine and, heaven help us, Perrier?=94 In early 2007, Schlesinger died as he= had lived: at work on a book... and out on the town (he was at a Manhattan= restaurant on the night he was fatally stricken). [from the =ABWashington = Post=BB, Sunday, October 7, 2007; Page BW03] [Note: Arthur Schlesinger Jr. = lived to the age of 89. I should be so lucky. - J.T.]=20 =20 Best, ------------------------------------------=20 John Tranter mailto:edit@jacketmagazine.com Jacket magazine: http://jacketmagazine.com/ Homepage: http://johntranter.com/ 39 Short Street Balmain NSW 2041, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:48:38 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Landis Everson poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit here is the poem I was talking of that I mentioned The Onion and the Piano Landis Everson It's not Dada to put together a piano with an onion, it's easy to do, like painting any kind of landscape, or speaking with a tongue split in two. On the window ledge as you pass, a bowl with an onion in it is a pale white inside a pale blue, and an etude coming out, between curtains dotted red on yellow, mixed with the smell of dinner, dancing and desire. You make it up. You are playing a fife while an enemy joins you on his piano. Behind you there's a painting on the wall, "Girl With Onions." You once loved her and associated everything with her smell. You are drawing with chalk a rubble of onions thrown against a wall, using every color you have to get the right white while standing on a piano. Two pianos. You are standing in a field of tomatoes and one onion sprout intrudes, dominating the view. You hear the tinkling, too close to reality, of an eighteenth-century harpsichord (not a piano?) playing boogie-woogie thought up by Bach in the shadowy intensity of the world between your ears. Your coloring book growingly has no meaning-- you interchange the colors every day. There's a ballerina on a giant onion, rolling between laughter and her fancy feet. She is telling us that there's a symbolic mystery under her movements and the luminous ball she dances on, which has been painted as an obvious fake of cardboard, confetti and paste, with hints of layers of skin and the color of breaking waves, that an onion, if it moves and is cold, could be an ocean. Or almost anything (except by fact or fantasy) a piano. Even the keys are an off-match, the legs impossible the sound coming out of it never an onion sound, not an etude for a tangy vegetable, unless you can allow, as in a poem or cartoon, onions to possess voices singing within the range of strings, pedals and soft hammers. Merging into sight in the sky are two separated things, a musician with his neck broken playing on an flattened onion as if it were a violin, and under him the grass cups a blue ox into a bowl with no meaning. You accept it, nodding your head to the music. You are starved for improbabilities. There are never enough in your life, between the ads for cars high up on mesas and cures for erectile dysfunction, fungus, bad breath and indigestion, any two will do. It is like marriages that are needed. Some last, some don't. There is surrealism in the air we breathe. Two impossibilities, like rocks and branches, fit together in the same landscape. They can kill you or help you live. Thunder sobs next to the radio when it hears its big voice reduced on a recording of a storm whose raindrops share only stories of rain. However you look, the piano and the onion are just lightning and hail, mixing it up for equilibrium, equal shades of what's for real. *** From _Everything Preserved: Poems 1955-2005_ Originally published in _Seneca Review)_ Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:41:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Landis Everson Comments: To: David Baratier In-Reply-To: 575055.11428.qm@web45603.mail.sp1.yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 That's all intriguing to read -- but I wonder in what ways TENNIS COURT OATH put Ashbery on the map -- Despite its good repute among some of us later readers, it was greeted unpleasantly by most at the time and remains remaindered in the eyes of most Bloomian critics -- On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 01:34 AM, David Baratier wrote: > I had not noticed any mention of Landis Eversons' death tho I think I received >word of it late last Sunday so I am saying something. At first, his first book >made me hopeful about his (new) publisher (only of books, not >the journal) and their intent as well as expected quality for future >collections. And he wrote some remarkable poems, ones that moved me at moments. > > I first learned of Everson in Fulcrum #2 where I appeared with him. While I >was not impressed with the poems (from the 50's), the fact of Ben >Mazer "finding him" before so many others who were, in my estimation, >way too far in depth, immersed in the Berkeley Ren., ringtones and all, >including friends and former students, THAT PART was impressive, the finding. >What was more pronounced was the new material that subsequently followed, an >amazing piece appeared in the The Sycamore Review (1 of 2), an awe >inspiring chunk in APR, and there was another set in a location that leaves me >at this moment. By the time the book came out I was actually excited, which >says a lot for someone who is enamored of Blasers essays (see the recent >UC collection), sceptical about Spicer (Collected), and only >interested in small sections of Duncan (Bow, mainly). > > What a great poet Landis was, there was poem that in my memory, which all of >this is from, I think from SR, called Potatoes and Onions, correct me if I be >wrong. The repetition was perfect, not too much Stein. Just the perfect mix of >Spicer's playfulness with Duncan's loft and Gilbert's "down to >earthiness" to relegate this writing to the most important figures of the >round table. > > When his first book surfaced I remembered that I had read him once in the >stacks in some library I was invited to, in Ashbery's Locus Solus >(sp?), a journal that was often fancy and flight driven in a way that >was distasteful. The pub seemed like it was so locally driven that the gist of >the moment, or "history," was absent in so many areas, so purposely >removed. I hope I am being clear, and the notion of what I call >"new-frenchism," totally derived from attempted translations >(best example Tennis Court Oath from JA or Freely Espousing from Schuyler, >both of which put them on the map in many ways but have not stood any sense of >time from what I have learned from earlier Generations (tho Jimmy >immediately escaped it) a plateau which can be annoying in general, for >being the primary tone of each collection. Landis had an interesting >"Romaness" to his stance, tactfully appealing but empty on the >inscape, an angle of approach that abutted and refuted the new modernist > approach of the period. > > Anyway, to be brutal, from the "closest" to LE I know, I was told >that Landis shot himself once in the head with a world war 2 service revolver. >There is little else that has come to light, probably since he was an isolated >person from what I know of the last five years, let alone earlier when he >entirely disappeared. If somebody wishes to share their appreciation of his >work, or knows more please tell, feel free to frontchannel, backchannel or give >me a call. If not, buy the book, try it out, let me know-- > > > > >--------------------------------- >Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:46:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: i'm not there Comments: To: Stephen Baraban In-Reply-To: 17605.87783.qm@web63410.mail.re1.yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I thought that one of the problems with the film was that, despite everything Haynes and his apparatus said, the movie was very much just the sort of checklist you invoke -- My vote for worst such moment being the "Just like a woman" line -- No doubt that Blanchett steals the show, but I also found that the second least effective part of the movie (the least effective, for me, being the Gere section) -- At the beginning of the film, in the "Woody Guthrie" section, I started to tell myself that this might actually turn out to be a good movie after all -- but it didn't -- I know; I know . . . . But lots of people like Masked & Anonymous, too -- I still think EAT THE DOCUMENT one of the great underseen movies of its time -- and there's a great 2 1/2 hour movie hiding inside the otherwise execrable RENALDO & CLARA -- On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 07:58 PM, Stephen Baraban wrote: > Steve D. > >If you did catch a second of motorcylce accident >presentation in "I'm Not There" you have admirable >visual acuity. However I think it was strange to go >see this movie with a checklist of things you expected >to see in the back of your mind. It is very clearly a >wild fantasia created by one of USAmerica's most >remarkable film-makers, Todd Haynes, bouncing off the >life and times of Bobby Zimmerman. I liked that it >was at times Fellini-esque or Godard-ian or imitating >the Pennebacker Dylan documentary I've never seen, and >Godard knows what else. (The scene in the diner in >which the "movie actor aspect of Dylan" first >converses with his French-born abstract artist wife >has dialogue adapted from a cafe scene in JLG's >"Masculine Feminine": "What would you say is the >center of your world?" "Well, I'm 22...I would say >myself"). > >As this is a poetics list, I should note that the >scenes involving Dylan and the young Allen Ginsberg >are a hoot. At one point they are looking at an >outdoor statue of the crucified Jesus and declaiming >witticisms. Bob eventaully calls out "can't you do >any of your *old* material???" > >There's so much more to say about this film. Suffice >it for now to say that it is a daring >semi-biographical hybrid like Gus Van Sant's movie >about the last days of Kurt Cobain. And the sound of >BD's post-motorcycle accident musical comeback *is* >represented in the moving presentation of "Going to >Acapulco" from the Basement Tapes in the final >enigmatic section concerning Dylan as an aging Billy >the Kid trying to protect the old weird American town >of Riddle. > >--- "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > >> DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A >> SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE >> ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT >> COME BACK PERIOD OOPS >> MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND >> FORTH IN CHRONOLOGY >> A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la >> strada and particuarlly >> 8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award >> material my wife didn't >> know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers >> and closer to >> actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism >> > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:58:08 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: Landis Everson Comments: To: ALDON L NIELSEN In-Reply-To: <1196401274l.733386l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Howdy Aldon-- The Tennis Court Oath never did anything for me, but with us having a half generation between, it has been the generation before me, yours or nearly so, that has held it in such high regard. THEY SAID "you should read that." I never understood, so I'is just reporting my experience in terms of readership. By the time I read it in the late 80's it seemed doomed and done away with. Hence my high estimation of Jimmy S, even that which others have considered his "soft" work. But, in my late thirties, I would love hear others estimation on this-- be well --dave ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: That's all intriguing to read -- but I wonder in what ways TENNIS COURT OATH put Ashbery on the map -- Despite its good repute among some of us later readers, it was greeted unpleasantly by most at the time and remains remaindered in the eyes of most Bloomian critics -- On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 01:34 AM, David Baratier wrote: I had not noticed any mention of Landis Eversons' death tho I think I received word of it late last Sunday so I am saying something. At first, his first book made me hopeful about his (new) publisher (only of books, not the journal) and their intent as well as expected quality for future collections. And he wrote some remarkable poems, ones that moved me at moments. I first learned of Everson in Fulcrum #2 where I appeared with him. While I was not impressed with the poems (from the 50's), the fact of Ben Mazer "finding him" before so many others who were, in my estimation, way too far in depth, immersed in the Berkeley Ren., ringtones and all, including friends and former students, THAT PART was impressive, the finding. What was more pronounced was the new material that subsequently followed, an amazing piece appeared in the The Sycamore Review (1 of 2), an awe inspiring chunk in APR, and there was another set in a location that leaves me at this moment. By the time the book came out I was actually excited, which says a lot for someone who is enamored of Blasers essays (see the recent UC collection), sceptical about Spicer (Collected), and only interested in small sections of Duncan (Bow, mainly). What a great poet Landis was, there was poem that in my memory, which all of this is from, I think from SR, called Potatoes and Onions, correct me if I be wrong. The repetition was perfect, not too much Stein. Just the perfect mix of Spicer's playfulness with Duncan's loft and Gilbert's "down to earthiness" to relegate this writing to the most important figures of the round table. When his first book surfaced I remembered that I had read him once in the stacks in some library I was invited to, in Ashbery's Locus Solus (sp?), a journal that was often fancy and flight driven in a way that was distasteful. The pub seemed like it was so locally driven that the gist of the moment, or "history," was absent in so many areas, so purposely removed. I hope I am being clear, and the notion of what I call "new-frenchism," totally derived from attempted translations (best example Tennis Court Oath from JA or Freely Espousing from Schuyler, both of which put them on the map in many ways but have not stood any sense of time from what I have learned from earlier Generations (tho Jimmy immediately escaped it) a plateau which can be annoying in general, for being the primary tone of each collection. Landis had an interesting "Romaness" to his stance, tactfully appealing but empty on the inscape, an angle of approach that abutted and refuted the new modernist approach of the period. Anyway, to be brutal, from the "closest" to LE I know, I was told that Landis shot himself once in the head with a world war 2 service revolver. There is little else that has come to light, probably since he was an isolated person from what I know of the last five years, let alone earlier when he entirely disappeared. If somebody wishes to share their appreciation of his work, or knows more please tell, feel free to frontchannel, backchannel or give me a call. If not, buy the book, try it out, let me know-- --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:52:49 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Caleb Cluff Subject: Re: iggy + passenger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am the passenger And I ride and I ride I ride through the city's backside I see the stars come out of the sky Yeah, they're bright in a hollow sky You know it looks so good tonight I am the passenger I stay under glass I look through my window so bright I see the stars come out tonight I see the bright and hollow sky Over the city's a rip in the sky And everything looks good tonight Singin' la la la la la-la-la la La la la la la-la-la la La la la la la-la-la la la-la Get into the car Well be the passenger Well ride through the city tonight See the city's ripped insides Well see the bright and hollow sky Well see the stars that shine so bright The sky was made for us tonight Oh the passenger How how he rides Oh the passenger He rides and he rides He looks through his window What does he see?=20 He sees the bright and hollow sky He see the stars come out tonight He sees the city's ripped backsides He sees the winding ocean drive And everything was made for you and me All of it was made for you and me cause it just belongs to you and me So let's take a ride and see what's mine Singin'... Oh, the passenger He rides and he rides He sees things from under glass He looks through his windows eye He sees the things he knows are his He sees the bright and hollow sky He sees the city asleep at night He sees the stars are out tonight And all of it is yours and mine And all of it is yours and mine Oh, lets ride and ride and ride and ride... Singing...=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2007 3:30 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: iggy + passenger just enjoying iggy's "the passenger" on youtube. does he really say=20 "all the clouds and the black guitars"?=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:42:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bobbie Lurie Subject: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Steve---frustrating to be narcissist in diseased state--for isn't it a disea= sed state,=20 this need to make in order to...?...(however that manifests) with or without= drugs=20 the voices come and Conrad think: no Muzak (sp?) anymore: i cant be on the s= treets=20 this time of year anyhow...and non-existent journals are always the best as=20= are=20 non-existent poems paintings/ isn't that why we keep making them?=20 our anonymity is our freedom i believe--why careerism is the real disease=20 (narcissism: isn't that just looking into lake searching for reflection of w= hat's=20 inside?)--but think: to finally be free=20 to speak to nothing but the earless air?--bobbi ate: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:51:46 -0800 rom: steve russell ubject: Re: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN, by Dave Black Conrad, the absolute last person... I was thinking I'd have poetry slaves. A= =20 mall, highly literate group, devoted to ME. I'm a narcissist. & being a=20 arcissist & a poet is torture. If I can't enjoy my narcissism, am I really a= =20 arcissist? But to answer your question, yes. I'd write poems. I'd even send=20 hem to non-existent journals. What the fuck. I'd stay drunk. I'd do every dr= ug=20 ossible. Before long, I'd be so delusional it wouldn't matter if I were the=20 nly me. I'd have plenty of personalities to keep me company. Questions of th= e=20 ype you ask are enough to drive one to drink, but they should be asked. Fuck= =20 eah, I'd still write. Maybe the utter hopelessness of the situation would br= ing=20 ut my best. I wonder if Samuel Beckett would have continued writing if he we= re=20 he last living human? Of course, you're right about the libraries. & that,=20 ruly, is sad.=20 CA Conrad wrote: Steve Russell wrote: >On the other hand, suppose a decent number of libraries survive. The orld, post Apocalypse, >>could be an austere paradise. I love urvivalist lit. But I'm not the healthiest kid on the block. >>>> Steve, yes, I know what you mean. The FANTASY of this is kind of errific. When I was a kid there was a weird Charlton Heston film I as obsessed with called OMEGA MAN, set in stark post Armageddon Los ngeles. One of the things I liked to do was stare into the ackground of the outdoor shots to see cars on the distant freeways hat you weren't supposed to notice. In reality the libraries will look much like Baghdad's libraries, ash. I wish the poetry collection at Buffalo had some sort of nuclear war rovisions. Michael Basinski should request funds for this in his udget. We'll all crawl our way to Buffalo. Here's a question though, and I'm serious: Would you still write oems if you were the LAST person on Earth? The absolute LAST person. ot even any hope of offspring or anyone. Because I know I would! To me, to ask What Would Be The Point in such a case is like asking HAT IS THE POINT for writing them now. NOT that I don't want people to read my poems! I guess I'm just aying I think I would still want to write them. But maybe not. Maybe I'd be so miserable I wouldn't want to do anything. Being the only person on Earth sounds awful. But at the moment with his ridiculous "holiday" shopping season scurrying around me at top peed it sounds kind of fucking nice! CAConrad ttp://PhillySound.blogspot.com =20 -------------------------------- e a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it n= ow. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:28:46 -0500 rom: Thomas Devaney ubject: Please come to Bowery Poetry Club Thurs night! Hello, please come to the book party for my new book on Thursday Nov 29th if= you an! All best, Tom Suzi Winson and Fish Drum nvite you to celebrate the release of A SERIES OF SMALL BOXES y THOMAS DEVANEY Thursday, November 29, 2007. 6-7:45 pm pen admission The Bowery Poetry Club 08 Bowery * New York City t the foot of First St. et Houston & Bleecker 12.614.0505 http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ ttp://www.fishdrum.com/ -from "The Car, a Window, and World War II" Ask yourself this question: oes silence have to mean a lack of sound? hate the lack of sound myself, though crave the silence. esterday, three people were shot at a check-point. he difference between a moment of silence nd a decade of silence. lone piano plays into our daily commute. ravel, pretzel bits, a penny on the floor. ACUUM: 50 Cents. onic Youth behind another pane of glass, glazed. hey didn=E2=80=99t invent flesh as material, only the name: Adaptation Studies.=E2=80=9D he late light through the painted window ecomes part of the notes on the page. race the tire marks, the fuel leak on the carpet, all them =E2=80=9Crelics.=E2=80=9D he was emphatic: =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t read the quotes, I skip them.=E2= =80=9D statement which clearly gave her a lot of satisfaction. his was years ago, hence the spaces, hence the space. - Thomas Devaney, A Series of Small Boxes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:13:29 -0800 rom: steve russell ubject: Re: WHAT TO DO WHEN THE SHIT/Wittgnstein's Mistress follows the prem= ise Conrad, If I were the last person alive, I'd read this: =20 Wittgenstein's Mistress is a novel unlike anything David Markson-= -or=20 nyone else--has ever written before. It is the story of a woman who is=20 onvinced--and, astonishingly, will ultimately convince the reader as well--t= hat=20 he is the only person left on earth. Presumably she is mad. And yet so=20 ppealing is her character, and so witty and seductive her narrative voice, t= hat=20 e will follow her hypnotically as she unloads the intellectual baggage of a=20 ifetime in a series of irreverent meditations on everything and everybody fr= om=20 rahms to sex to Heidegger to Helen of Troy. And as she contemplates aspects=20= of=20 he troubled past which have brought her to her present state--obviously a=20 etaphor for ultimate loneliness--so too will her drama become one of the few= =20 ertifiably original fictions of our time. "The novel I liked best this year," said the Washington Times upon the book= 's=20 ublication in 1988; "one dizzying, delightful, funny passage after another.=20= . .=20 Wittgenstein's Mistress gives proof positive that the experimental novel ca= n=20 roduce high, pure works of imagination." "Addresses formidable philosophic questions with tremendous wit . . .=20 emarkable . . . a novel that can be parsed like a sentence; it is that well=20 ade."--New York Times Book Review "Unsettling, shimmering . . . compelling."--Publishers Weekly "A work of genius . . . an erudite, breathtakingly cerebral novel whose pro= se=20 s crystal and whose voice rivets and whose conclusion defies you not to=20 ry."--David Foster Wallace "Brilliant and often hilarious . . . Markson is one working novelist I can=20 hink of who can claim affinities with Joyce, Gaddis, and Lowry, no less than= =20 ith Beckett."--San Francisco Review of Books "Provocative, learned, wacko, brilliant, and extravagantly comic. This is a= =20 onesuch novel, a formidable work of art by a writer who kicks tradition out=20= the=20 indow, then kicks the window out the window, letting a splendid new light in= to=20 he room."--William Kennedy "In a just world, Wittgenstein's Mistress would be offered notice on the co= ver=20 f the New York Review of Books. Let good readers therefore come and make up=20= the=20 ifference."--Gordon Lish "I can't think of the last time I held my breath when I read a book, waitin= g=20 or the author to make one slip. Markson is as precise and dazzling as Joyce.= =20 is wit and awesome power of observation make this fictional world utterly=20 onvincing. I couldn't put this book down. I can't forget it. While Markson=20 imself would deplore the use of a cliche, all I can say is that this book is= =20 riginal, beautiful, and an absolute masterpiece. Anyone who reads it can't=20 hink about the world the same way."--Ann Beattie "Wittgenstein's Mistress is an original and haunting work. David Markson=20 rilliantly demonstrates how art and memory can both heighten and leaven=20 rief."--Hilma Wolitzer "Beautifully conceived. An irresistible, captivating book!"--Walter Abish "Beautifully realized. Initially as hypnotically calming as an afternoon=20 nowfall, then, by stages as menacing and yet thrilling as a nocturnal blizza= rd.=20 his is Markson in the post-Beckett Gaddis country, staking his own claim, in= a=20 erritory nobody else has the courage or the strength to inhabit and survive=20 n."--James McCourt=20 =20 =20 back to full catalog) =20= =20 back to top)=20 =20 Poetry =20 CA Conrad wrote: Steve Russell wrote: >On the other hand, suppose a decent number of libraries survive. The orld, post Apocalypse, >>could be an austere paradise. I love urvivalist lit. But I'm not the healthiest kid on the block. >>>> Steve, yes, I know what you mean. The FANTASY of this is kind of errific. When I was a kid there was a weird Charlton Heston film I as obsessed with called OMEGA MAN, set in stark post Armageddon Los ngeles. One of the things I liked to do was stare into the ackground of the outdoor shots to see cars on the distant freeways hat you weren't supposed to notice. In reality the libraries will look much like Baghdad's libraries, ash. I wish the poetry collection at Buffalo had some sort of nuclear war rovisions. Michael Basinski should request funds for this in his udget. We'll all crawl our way to Buffalo. Here's a question though, and I'm serious: Would you still write oems if you were the LAST person on Earth? The absolute LAST person. ot even any hope of offspring or anyone. Because I know I would! To me, to ask What Would Be The Point in such a case is like asking HAT IS THE POINT for writing them now. NOT that I don't want people to read my poems! I guess I'm just aying I think I would still want to write them. But maybe not. Maybe I'd be so miserable I wouldn't want to do anything. Being the only person on Earth sounds awful. But at the moment with his ridiculous "holiday" shopping season scurrying around me at top peed it sounds kind of fucking nice! CAConrad ttp://PhillySound.blogspot.com =20 -------------------------------- et easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:27:48 -0800 rom: David Chirot ubject: Vast Nazi archive opens to public - Yahoo! News http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/ap_on_re_eu/nazi_archive --- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:04 -0500 rom: Shin Yu Pai ubject: poetry at RISD tonight Shin Yu Pai oetry reading and slide lecture ISD Tap Room 26 Benefit Street p.m. REE ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:17:42 -0800 rom: Schuchat Simon ubject: Re: Poetry and the Foreign Service I should have an opinion on this subject, or on both subjects, being an obje= ct=20 f them. =20 -------------------------------- e a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it n= ow. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:04:05 -0500 rom: Aryanil Mukherjee ubject: Re: poetry and the foreign service there's another great book by Paz, published towards the end of his life -=20 n Light of India. aryanil ----- Original Message -----=20 rom: "Ruth Lepson" o: ent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:56 PM ubject: Re: poetry and the foreign service yes & Eliot has translated, w others, poems abt India by Paz when he was=20 an ambassador there--A Tale of Two Gardens. On 11/27/07 11:49 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" =20 wrote: > I seem to remember that Eliot Weinberger wrote something about him in > Montemora years ago. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dr. Barry S. Alpert > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, 27 November, 2007 2:51:17 PM > Subject: Re: poetry and the foreign service > > Though not exactly a member of the foreign service, James Jesus Angleton=20 > was > intimately involved with poets, poetry, & spying. Those intrigued by=20 > this > thread might want to read around in these essays: > > > http://www.cia-on-campus.org/yale.edu/henwood.html > > http://www.jeetheer.com/politics/cia.htm > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/burleigh-private.html?_r=3D1&oref=3Ds= login > > > Barry Alpert > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112= 007 --=20 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1154 - Release Date:=20 11/27/2007 11:40 AM =20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:32:57 -0500 rom: cris cheek ubject: Re: i'm not there well yep some of the editing is delicious and Blanchett steals the film hands down i liked it pretty much up until the Gere section, altho i'll give you he Fellini carnivale scans so . . . erm why end it there . . . why not at least dabble in his roubadour present On 11/28/07, Christophe Casamassima wro= te: I haven't seen the film and think it has numerous flaws - one being that it= =20 as dreamed up and filmed, for one. Other than that it's a masterpiece of=20 inema. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve d. dalachinsky" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: i'm not there > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:22:01 -0500 > > > i'm floored aldon tho yes i do understand and flawed is flawed one way > or the other > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:23:24 -0500 ALDON L NIELSEN > writes: > > I saw it more as being really flawed with a few good things -- On > > Mon, Nov 26, 2007 07:02 PM, "steve d. dalachinsky" > > wrote: > > > > > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A SECOND OF MOTOR CYCL= E > > >ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT COME BACK PERIOD OOPS > > >MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND FORTH IN CHRONOLO= GY > > >A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la strada and particuarl= ly > > >8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award material my wife didn'= t > > >know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers and closer to > > >actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > > > > We are enslaved by > > what makes us free -- intolerable > > paradox at the heart of speech. > > --Robert Kelly > > > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > The Pennsylvania State University > > 116 Burrowes > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > > =3D San Diego Real Estate Listings Search the MLS for over 10,000 available properties in sunny San Diego,=20 alifornia. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D61f319c3967167e6fc32a= 24097b28114 -- Powered By Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:30:26 -0500 rom: Christina E Lovin ubject: Re: picture of giant chipmunk If the chipmunk is that big, imagine the size of the nuts. =20 I'm a native Illinoisan, my dad was a conservation for the state of Illinois n Knox County (about 90 mile WNW from Normal--really from normal) for wenty years. I don't remember seeing chipmunks that big, although there ere reports of giant sewer rats in Peoria, but a good divorce lawyer took are of that vermin infestation. =20 I miss the wide-open sky of Illinois--you know the one with the roiling lack clouds (aka tornadoes, twisters, cyclones). I used to be in a writing roup with folks from ISU. I really do miss them. =20 Congrats on the book! =20 Christina -----Original Message----- rom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On ehalf Of Gabriel Gudding ent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:32 PM o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU ubject: picture of giant chipmunk http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ------------------------------ End of POETICS Digest - 27 Nov 2007 to 29 Nov 2007 (#2007-332) ************************************************************* ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn= .com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=3Daolcmp0005000000= 0003 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: i'm not there MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The last 8 years have been an especially hectic and convulsive period in our national experience, but you wouldn't know it from our movies, which --only until recently--have devoted themselves, with increasing energy and expense to fantasy, regression, nostalgia and wishful thinking. Until this season's bumper-crop of topical films ("Redacted", "Lions for Lambs", etc.)--it seemed as though because of censorship, political caution and the pressure to produce mass entertainment for a heterogeneous public(recal the Beverly Hills Summit a few years back, a powwow that brought together almost four dozen of the Hollywood power elite with President Bush's top advisor and strategist Karl "Goebbles" Rove... their mission (which they seem to have accepted): to explore how the entertainment industry can assist the Administration's war on terrorism.) (a half-dozen spy- oriented kid flicks, "300", "Hitman"), our movies have always been shy about confronting our realities too directly. There are exceptions (as I mentioned earlier), but "I'm Not There" isn't one of them. Watching the biopic I was struck by how different the path to fame was a few short decades ago compared with today. After all, how could today's Dylan achieve celebrity status? "I'm Not There" seems to be more there for B. D. than it is for us, although it does show some of the connections to the cult of celebrity and scandal (of the '60's), and, as usual will surely help to ressurect more interest in Dylan, whose work of that time may not have withstood the test of time, especially those narratives full of topical references and allusions. It's not easy stuff for the post MTV generation, as say, whatever is listened to now. Gerald S. >I thought that one of the problems with the film was that, despite >everything > Haynes and his apparatus said, the movie was very much just the sort of > checklist you invoke -- My vote for worst such moment being the "Just like > a > woman" line -- No doubt that Blanchett steals the show, but I also found > that > the second least effective part of the movie (the least effective, for me, > being the Gere section) -- At the beginning of the film, in the "Woody > Guthrie" > section, I started to tell myself that this might actually turn out to be > a > good movie after all -- but it didn't -- > > I know; I know . . . . But lots of people like Masked & Anonymous, too -- > > I still think EAT THE DOCUMENT one of the great underseen movies of its > time -- > and there's a great 2 1/2 hour movie hiding inside the otherwise execrable > RENALDO & CLARA -- > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 07:58 PM, Stephen Baraban > wrote: > >> Steve D. >> >>If you did catch a second of motorcylce accident >>presentation in "I'm Not There" you have admirable >>visual acuity. However I think it was strange to go >>see this movie with a checklist of things you expected >>to see in the back of your mind. It is very clearly a >>wild fantasia created by one of USAmerica's most >>remarkable film-makers, Todd Haynes, bouncing off the >>life and times of Bobby Zimmerman. I liked that it >>was at times Fellini-esque or Godard-ian or imitating >>the Pennebacker Dylan documentary I've never seen, and >>Godard knows what else. (The scene in the diner in >>which the "movie actor aspect of Dylan" first >>converses with his French-born abstract artist wife >>has dialogue adapted from a cafe scene in JLG's >>"Masculine Feminine": "What would you say is the >>center of your world?" "Well, I'm 22...I would say >>myself"). >> >>As this is a poetics list, I should note that the >>scenes involving Dylan and the young Allen Ginsberg >>are a hoot. At one point they are looking at an >>outdoor statue of the crucified Jesus and declaiming >>witticisms. Bob eventaully calls out "can't you do >>any of your *old* material???" >> >>There's so much more to say about this film. Suffice >>it for now to say that it is a daring >>semi-biographical hybrid like Gus Van Sant's movie >>about the last days of Kurt Cobain. And the sound of >>BD's post-motorcycle accident musical comeback *is* >>represented in the moving presentation of "Going to >>Acapulco" from the Basement Tapes in the final >>enigmatic section concerning Dylan as an aging Billy >>the Kid trying to protect the old weird American town >>of Riddle. >> >>--- "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: >> >>> DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A >>> SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE >>> ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT >>> COME BACK PERIOD OOPS >>> MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND >>> FORTH IN CHRONOLOGY >>> A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la >>> strada and particuarlly >>> 8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award >>> material my wife didn't >>> know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers >>> and closer to >>> actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism >>> >> >> >> >> >>____________________________________________________________________________________ >>Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. >>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> >> >> > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:49:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jules Boykoff Subject: Tangent Reading--Mohammad, Wright & Tyc--tomorrow in Portland, Oregon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 The Tangent Reading Series presents K. Silem Mohammad, Cat Tyc, & Vincent Craig Wright Sat. Dec. 1 7:00 p.m. Clinton Corner Cafe 2633 SE 21st Ave. in Portland, Oregon (Corner of 21st & Clinton) Admission is free Come early, and have dinner, if you like. Please stay after and join us for conversation and festivities! www.thetangentpress.org/readings.html K. SILEM MOHAMMAD is the author of Breathalyzer (Edge Books, 2008), A Thousand Devils (Combo Books, 2004), and Deer Head Nation (Tougher Disguises, 2003), one of the first books of Flarf poetry, an experimental literary movement that creates poems from Google search results. His writing has appeared in numerous journals and anthologies, including The Best American Poetry 2004. He has co-edited two books of essays: The Undead and Philosophy (2006) and Quentin Tarantino and Philosophy (2007). He maintains the popular poetics blog Lime Tree ( http://lime- tree.blogspot.com). VINCENT CRAIG WRIGHT is the Fiction Writer at Southern Oregon University. He studied with James Dickey at the University of South Carolina, where he was the recipient of The South Carolina Academy of Authors Fiction Prize. Redemption Center, his debut collection of stories, was published by Bear Star Press in 2006. CAT TYC is a writer/video maker living in Portland. She is representing Oregon in The Anthology of Younger Poets that will be published by Outside Voices press in January. OpenWebMail version 2.52 Help? FAQ (en español) Need help finding your filtered mail? Click here. -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:37:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: i'm not there In-Reply-To: <20071129.225855.1736.7.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Having finally seen this film yesterday, I have to say that except for Cate Blanchett's wonderful performance, it is otherwise a pretentious and boring film. I almost fell asleep at one point. This is too bad because the only other Haynes film I've seen which was, if I remember correctly, called Far From Heaven, is a masterpiece. In this one, he may have been trying too hard to produce a work of art. What he arrived at is the worst sort of thing for any genre, pseudo-art. Was Julianne Moore supposed to be Joan Baez? I suppose you can't use the real names of living people in a fictional film without lawsuits. Does that explain Allen Ginsberg's posthumous appearance in two of the film's most embarrassingly awful sequences? Of course, the worst and most indigestible part of the movie is undoubtedly the Richard Gere sequences which make no sense at all either within the context of the rest of the movie or on their own terms. It's sad that one of our greatest popular artists, Bob Dylan, has had such a mixed record of luck when it comes to films by and/or about him. The first one was the best, as I recall. The one in which he starred a few years ago was also a puzzling, somewhat pretentious mess. Regards, Tom Savage "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: thanks for this steve On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:58:26 -0800 Stephen Baraban writes: > Steve D. > > If you did catch a second of motorcylce accident > presentation in "I'm Not There" you have admirable > visual acuity. However I think it was strange to go > see this movie with a checklist of things you expected > to see in the back of your mind. It is very clearly a > wild fantasia created by one of USAmerica's most > remarkable film-makers, Todd Haynes, bouncing off the > life and times of Bobby Zimmerman. I liked that it > was at times Fellini-esque or Godard-ian or imitating > the Pennebacker Dylan documentary I've never seen, and > Godard knows what else. (The scene in the diner in > which the "movie actor aspect of Dylan" first > converses with his French-born abstract artist wife > has dialogue adapted from a cafe scene in JLG's > "Masculine Feminine": "What would you say is the > center of your world?" "Well, I'm 22...I would say > myself"). > > As this is a poetics list, I should note that the > scenes involving Dylan and the young Allen Ginsberg > are a hoot. At one point they are looking at an > outdoor statue of the crucified Jesus and declaiming > witticisms. Bob eventaully calls out "can't you do > any of your *old* material???" > > There's so much more to say about this film. Suffice > it for now to say that it is a daring > semi-biographical hybrid like Gus Van Sant's movie > about the last days of Kurt Cobain. And the sound of > BD's post-motorcycle accident musical comeback *is* > represented in the moving presentation of "Going to > Acapulco" from the Basement Tapes in the final > enigmatic section concerning Dylan as an aging Billy > the Kid trying to protect the old weird American town > of Riddle. > > --- "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: > > > DYLAN FILM REALLY GOOD WITH A FEW FLAWS I.E. A > > SECOND OF MOTOR CYCLE > > ACCIDENT NO WOODSTOCK OR BAND NO SONGS FROM THAT > > COME BACK PERIOD OOPS > > MAYBE A SECOND OF WATCHTOWER TOO MANY JUMPS BACK AND > > FORTH IN CHRONOLOGY > > A BIT TOO FELLINI-ESQUE IN SPOTS ALA clowns la > > strada and particuarlly > > 8&1/2 kate blanchett was great academy award > > material my wife didn't > > know she was a woman maybe best segments were hers > > and closer to > > actuality in dylan's life lots of sirrealism > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ ___________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:18:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nathaniel Siegel Subject: Bowery Poetry Club for World AIDS Day Dec 1st 2pm-4pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends: Hi ! I am hosting an Open Mic to Remember on World AIDS Day this Saturday Dec 1st from 2pm-4pm at The Bowery Poetry Club in NYC. Come read a poem, sing a song, tell a story, recall a friend... Sign up and perform ! Selected texts will be available to read from. Admission is FREE and this event is open to the public. Please consider supporting Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS with a donation. Then stay for the Segue Reading Series from 4-5:40 pm with featured poets Tyrone Williams and Sueyeun Juliette Lee. Admission to Segue $8.00. For more information on the World AIDS Day Open Mic contact Nathaniel A. Siegel by email at _nathanielsiegel@nyc.rr.com_ (mailto:nathanielsiegel@nyc.rr.com) . **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:46:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodney Koeneke Subject: Portland, Sat. 12/1: MOHAMMAD, TYC, WRIGHT Read for Tangent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Tangent Reading Series presents: K. SILEM MOHAMMAD, CAT TYC & VINCENT CRAIG WRIGHT Saturday, December 1 @ 7 p.m. Clinton Corner Cafe, 21st & SE Clinton Ave, Portland OR Admission free. Come early and have dinner. K. SILEM MOHAMMAD is the author of Breathalyzer (Edge Books, 2008), A Thousand Devils (Combo Books, 2004), and Deer Head Nation (Tougher Disguises, 2003). He has also co-edited and contributed to two books in Open Court's Popular Culture and Philosophy series: The Undead and Philosophy (2006) and Quentin Tarantino and Philosophy (2007). He co-edits the magazine Abraham Lincoln with Anne Boyer, and he maintains the popular poetics blog Lime Tree. CAT TYC is a writer/video maker living in Portland. She is representing Oregon in The Anthology of Younger Poets that will be published by Outside Voices press in January. VINCENT CRAIG WRIGHT is the fiction writer at Southern Oregon University. Redemption Center, his debut collection of stories, was published by Bear Star Press in 2006. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:04:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: iggy + passenger Comments: To: Barry Schwabsky In-Reply-To: <845646.68950.qm@web86002.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I looked up the lyrics (thanks Caleb) and the line wasn't there, but i cd swear i hear him say it in the performance. Barry Schwabsky wrote: > If he doesn't--then it's yours! > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Maria Damon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, 28 November, 2007 4:30:15 PM > Subject: iggy + passenger > > just enjoying iggy's "the passenger" on youtube. does he really say > "all the clouds and the black guitars"? > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:14:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CE Putnam Subject: CRAWSPACE in 3-D: THIS SUNDAY! ++ Book preorder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0ACRAWLSPACE BOOK LAUNCH READING & CD RELEASE PARTY=0AFeaturing: Seattle p= oets DANIEL COMISKEY & C.E. PUTNAM=0A=0ACRAWLSPACE is a collaboratively wri= tten book-length poem by Seattle writers=0ADaniel Comiskey & C.E. Putnam, o= riginally commissioned by Doug Nufer for=0Apresentation at OseoO Gallery=E2= =80=99s Leg to Stand On reading series. A bonus=0Acompact disc, the Crawls= pace Audio Companion, comprises a reading of the work=0Aby the authors, set= within an innovative sound collage conceived and produced=0Aby C.E. Putnam= and featuring the voice of Stanley Shiebert, Librarian in the=0AArts, Recr= eation & Literature department of the Seattle Public Library.=0A=0A=0ASUNDA= Y, DECEMBER 2, 2007=E2=80=947:30pm. One night only=0ARENDEZVOUS JEWELBOX T= HEATER, 2322 2nd Ave Seattle, WA=0ALocated in the historic Rendezvous Bar &= Restaurant=0AThis venue is age 21 & over=0A=0AThis event is FREE. No rese= rvation required, but seating is limited to 60=0Apersons=0A=0ABOOK & CD PAC= KAGE available for the first time on the night of the performance=0A$12 spe= cial night-of-reading price (regular $14 retail thereafter)=0ABook cover fe= atures original 3-D graphic art (3-D glasses free with every=0Apurchase)=0A= =0AORDER ONLINE: http://www.pisor-industries.org/crawlspace/order.html=0A= =0A=0ADANIEL COMISKEY was pretty good at the dodging part in dodge ball, wa= s coeditor=0Aof Monkey Puzzle, a magazine of poetry and prose, and worked a= s literary=0Amanager for The Poet=E2=80=99s Theater. His translations of H= u Xudong, produced in=0Acollaboration with Chinese scholar Ying Qin, appear= in Another Kind of Nation:=0AAn Anthology of Contemporary Chinese Poetry. = His work is also included in the=0ASeattle Writers Issue of Golden Handcuf= fs Review.=0A=0ASeattle born, C.E. PUTNAM has stopped the Space Needle with= his foot. He also=0Amaintains P.I.S.O.R. (The Putnam Institute for Space= Opera Research=0A(http://www.pisor-industries.org). Recent works include:= Manic Box (2001); Did=0Ayou ever hear of a thing like that? (2001); Things= Keep Happening (2003);=0AFrolic: Selected Cosmic Sex Earthly Love Poems (1= 994-2007).=0A=0A=0A=0A _______________________________________________= _____________________________________=0ABe a better sports nut! Let your t= eams follow you =0Awith Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/= sports;_ylt=3DAt9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:16:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: short poem in the long haul In-Reply-To: <13414f100711300846s34aae0a6r810cc25db7837130@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable follow-up on subject of shorter poetry publications, what else is out there= ? What i wanted to say about noon is that a lot of dedicated practitioners of the form send their work there, as far as I can tell its one of the preferred destinations at the moment for poems between 1 and 20 lines. the question is, what other mags are around that work with short poetry? i can think of Still from the UK, no longer publishing. I havent seen Tundra or Hummingbird, but also havent seen announcements of new issues for those mags recently. =20 There=B9s Island, also from the UK, going strong, which features many one lin= e poems. any others? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:28:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Thomas-Glass Subject: Jennifer Moxley? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Does anyone have a current email address for her? It'd be greatly appreciated. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:20:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: kristin prevallet to read tonight in normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit as part of the POETS ON PAINTING traveling exhibit, whose 125 pp *catalog was edited by Katie Geha and Travis Nichols Kristin Prevallet will read (her awesome work) in the CVA Gallery, Illinois State U, Normal Illinois http://paintersandpoets.blogspot.com/ pics to follow on conchology blog. also maybe an audiofile if it's okay with kristin, we'll see about that though. *containing the work of poets Eric Baus, Laura Solomon, Paul Killebrew, Hoa Nguyen, Sawako Nakayasu, Aimee Kelley, Noah Eli Gordon, Nick Moudry, Kary Wayson, Kristin Prevallet, John Olson, Sueyuen Juliette Lee, Joshua Marie Wilkinson, Jeff Clark, Sara Veglahn, Corina Copp, Dorothea Lasky, Juliana Leslie, Monica Fambrough, Brad Flis and painters Mequitta Ahuja, Abel Auer, Jules de Balincourt, Nina Bovasso, Echo Eggebrecht, James Benjamin Franklin, Joanne Greenbaum, Mark Grotjahn, Angelina Gualdoni, Laura Owens, Christopher Patch, Lamar Peterson, Sam Prekop, Monique Prieto, Christoph Ruchaberle, Anna Schachte, Dana Schutz, Sandra Scolnik, Amy Sillman, and Whiting Tennis. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:12:05 -0500 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Buuck Subject: Reminder: Will Alexander benefit, SF 12/1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As many of you know, poet Will Alexander is quite ill with cancer and is undergoing chemotherapy. He's spent his life largely offthe poetry grid, taking on odd jobs, and has no financial support or, needless to say, health insurance. Please join us on Dec 1 at 730 for a Bay Area benefit reading. Donations will be bundled and sent directly to Will. If you cannot make it but would like to contribute, please see < http://harlequinknights.blogspot.com/2007/10/as-you-may-have-heard-poet-will.html > for details. Readers include: Nate Mackey Juliana Spahr Taylor Brady Lyn Hejinian Andrew Joron Tisa Bryant Adam Cornford D.S. Marriott and more! hosted by David Buuck and Small Press Traffic $10-up donations Saturday December 1, 2008 7:30 PM in Timken Lecture Hall, at the California College of the Arts, 1111--8th Street, San Francisco