========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:44:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Fwd: FW: Spiral Jetty Oil Drilling Comments: To: Poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Spiral Jetty environs is being threatened, by petroleum interests no less. Hop and skip through the emails below for details and If you want to send a letter of protest to save the beautiful, natural Utah environment around the Spiral Jetty from oil drilling, the emails or calls of protest go to Jonathan Jemming 801-537-9023 jjemming@utah.gov. Please refer to Application # 8853. Every letter makes a big difference, they do take a lot of notice and know that publicity may follow. Since the Spiral Jetty has global significance, emails from foreign countries would be of special value. . Feb 13 is verdict time. Thank you, Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Subject: Fwd: Spiral Jetty Oil Drilling Dear Friends, We have now won a stay of execution until February 13th. Nancy Holt and those of us who feel Robert Smithson's Spiral Jetty is a national monument that needs to be saved and the environs protected, please call or email Jonathon Jemmings, and ask him to deny Application 8853 permission to drill the "West Rozel Field Prospect" near the "Spiral Jetty". I think if we each ask ten more people to write to him, Mr. Jemmings and the Utah state officials will eventually be so over-whelmed by the world's outrage that we might be able to prevent this disaster. I remember when I asked my friends in the art world for help in saving Gordon Matta-Clark's Office Baroque in Belgium, it snowballed into a thousand letters from people around the world willing to help a fellow artist. Your letters have already had an impact. Hopefully, additional letters from your friends will influence the Utah vote positively. With much heartfelt gratitude, Jane Crawford ___ Estate of Gordon Matta-Clark 83 Georgetown Road Weston, CT 06883 t: 203 / 544 - 8875 f: 203 / 544 - 9737 --------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Subject: Spiral Jetty Oil Drilling Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:34:46 -0800 From: "Nancy Holt" To: "Nancy Holt" Spiral Jetty Oil Drilling Dear Friends, Yesterday I received an urgent email from Lynn DeFreitas, Director of Friends of the Great Salt Lake, telling me of plans for drilling oil in the Salt Lake near Spiral Jetty. See Attachments. The deadline for protest is tomorrow, Wednesday, at 5PM. Of course, DIA has been informed and are meeting about it today. I have been told by Lynn that the oil wells will not be above the water, but that means some kind of industrial complex of pipes and pumps beneath the water and on the shore. The operation would require roads for oil tank trucks, cranes, pumps etc. which produce noise and will severely alter the wild, natural place. If you want to send a letter of protest to save the beautiful, natural Utah environment around the Spiral Jetty from oil drilling, the emails or calls of protest go to Jonathan Jemming 801-537-9023 jjemming@utah.gov. Please refer to Application # 8853. Every letter makes a big difference, they do take a lot of notice and know that publicity may follow. Since the Spiral Jetty has global significance, emails from foreign countries would be of special value. They try to slip these drilling contracts under the radar, that’s why we found out so late, not through notification, but from a watchdog lawyer at the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance, the group that alerted me to the land leasing for oil and gas near Sun Tunnels last May. Thank you for your consideration of this serious environmental matter. Be well, Nancy From Lynn DeFreitas ldefreitas@earthlink.net: We now need to direct our energy to Jonathan Jemming, who is the > coordinator/advisor for the Utah Public Lands Policy Coordinating Office. His phone is 801-537-9023 > and his email is jjemming@utah.gov. > > The specific application number is # 8853. Although I don't know what this > short hand means, it was designated as a short time turnaround - category 4. > > Please remember to include the application number in your messages. > > I have left a phone message on Mr. Jemming's line and will be sending an > email reiterating my request for the extension. My intiution tells me that > if Mr. Jemming receives multiple requests, he is more likely to grant us an > extension. > > Please do what you can. I know how busy you all are. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:40:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Junction at AWP--Discount In-Reply-To: <20080131.031253.1436.27.skyplums@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Hilton, 6th between 53 and 54. The book fair is only open to the public 2:30 to 5:30 on Saturday. If you can't make it decide which books you want and you'll get the same discount and we'll do the exchange over coffee or a meal. Mark At 03:05 AM 1/31/2008, you wrote: >mark where is this awp thing being held >On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:29:57 -0500 Mark Weiss >writes: > > Junction Press will be at AWP, Americas Hall 2, table 495. > > > > Say POETICSLIST for a 20% discount. > > > > For a list of available books, check out > > > > www.junctionpress.com > > > > Mark > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 00:13:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sorrowful the intervention of death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed sorrowful the intervention of death sorrowful the intervention of death mournful community, the horizon continues briefly, then desolation tears of martyrs of kenya, darfur, small witnessings in forests sorrowful the finality, how i claw at death how i cultivate my tiny death, caress my intervention before you i am going, after you, following and the forests and the forests and the imminent cliffs how sorrowful they are the first 4 are pieces for another cd the next group are smallscanner modifications with artifacts, moving towards the extremities of the software's ability to coalesce with the dream of the real. the triangular protrusions are similar to the catastrophic jumps visible in the motion capture videos. here thom's semantics of catastrophe theory, his linguistic primitives, are more than useful. code at the limits turns to prey. http://www.alansondheim.org/tobin2.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/tobin3.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/tobin4.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/tobin5.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword01.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword02.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword03.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword04.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword05.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword06.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword07.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword08.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword09.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword10.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword11.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword12.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/trueworldword13.jpg === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:05:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate Pritts Subject: H_NGM_N // W_RLD - AWP Video Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H_NGM_N // W_RLD is the social networking arm of the literary mag H_NGM_N -= check us out & join the fun. =20 http://www.h-ngm-nw-rld.com =20 And now, our man on the street ERIC APPLEBY (H_NGM_N Webmaster & Forklift, = Ohio Publisher) checks in with some video blog posts from AWP. =20 See you there-- =20 Nate___________Nate Prittshttp://www.h-ngm-n.com*Pre-order my new chapbook = SHRUG --> http://www.mainstreetrag.com/store/ComingSoon.php _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo= ur "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:49:59 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wildhoney press Subject: Litany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies for cross posting. _Litany_, a text video of Geoffrey Squires' poem of the same name, is = now available at the Wild Honey Press website. http://www.wildhoneypress.com/ You can download in windows media format or view it as a flash video at = youtube=20 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dg7diRzHes6o Geoffrey Squires' selected _Untitled and other Poems_ was published by = Wild Honey Press in 2004, and subsequent work has appeared in Masthead, Free Verse = and Shearsman magazine. Two e-poems, Lines and So, were also published by = Shearsman in 2006 and 2007, and a previous text video, Repetitions, by WHP last = autumn. Some of his readings can also be viewed on Meshworks. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVqgedrWgmw&feature=3Drelated http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3DFzBa4GRc_jQ&feature=3Drelated http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3Daf7gm5BGBWg&feature=3Drelated http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3DQBKgMp5qkyI&feature=3Drelated http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3DVG4Lgy8lMf0&feature=3Drelated http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3DlBLvjI1KqQI&feature=3Drelated Best Randolph ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 04:56:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: richard owens Subject: DALE SMITH - SUSQUEHANNA In-Reply-To: <1d70fffd0801311244n1fbabe8aqcb4c2f660c11efab@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DALE SMITH - SUSQUEHANNA - NOW AVAILABLE This book contains the first part of Dale Smith's Susquehanna, a sustained meditation on the value of failed vision -- particularly the inability of a young Samuel Taylor Coleridge to fully realize his Pantisocracy on the banks of the Susquehanna River in the early 19th century. Thinking this failure through the cultural and technological developments of the present moment, Smith develops a methodological approach within the body of the poem grounded partly in Walter Benjamin's materialist historiography and David Antin's talking meditations on anthropology. 64 pages. Perfect-bound with three-color letterpress wraps. Like the Wingbow Press edition of Ed Dorn's Slinger, parts of the book were set in Caslon Old Face. Parts of the book were also set in Baskerville Old Face, Palatino Linotype, and Georgia. Interior images culled from various 18th century New England primers. Front cover image of Britain culled from John Sellers' 1690 Hydrographia Universalis. Rear cover image from Sellers' A New Systeme of Geography, 2nd Edition, also printed in 1690. Parts of this poem previously appeared in Kadar Koli, Madorla, and Damn the Caesars. $10.00 (Paypal. Check. Money order.) http://damnthecaesars.org/ The "Punch Press" menu option to the right of the DTC webpage will lead you to Smith's Susquehanna and other Punch Press publications. cheers... rich... ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 08:43:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hot Whiskey Press Subject: Chicago Reading in Feb with Kent Johnson, Gabe Gudding, Tawrin Baker Comments: cc: Luke Daly , Spell , Jennifer Rogers , charl gordon , Kevin Kilroy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Friday, February 15, 2007, 7:30 pm, FREE POETRY AND PRINTS #1 The editors of House and Hot Whiskey Press present a reading with: Kent Johnson Gabriel Gudding Tawrin Baker Prints on display: "In 2003, a collective of printers working at SAIC established The Fraternal Order of the Print Rat. The Print Rats shared knowledge about print techniques, artists, and resources as well as coordinated print exchanges. The Print Rats were a main source of stimulus for the creation of Spudnik Press. The very first exchange, entitled "The Hunted", will be on display." Spudnik Press 847 N. Paulina Chicago, Il 60622 www.spudnikpress.com 773-715-1473 This is off Paulina, just north of Chicago Avenue in Ukranian Village/Wicker Park. Feel free to pass on to others. We don't have much of a Chicago mailing list. -- Hot Whiskey Press www.hotwhiskeyblog.blogspot.com www.hotwhiskeypress.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:12:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sheila black Subject: Bush Haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bush Haiku This is a short poem made up entirely of actual quotations from George W. Bush. These have been arranged, only for aesthetic purposes, by Washington Post writer, Richard Thompson. A wonderful Haiku poem like this is too good not to share. MAKE THE PIE HIGHER I think we all agree, the past is over. This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty And potential mental losses. Rarely is the question asked Is our children learning? Will the highways of the Internet become more few? How many hands have I shaked? They misunderestimate me. I am a pit-bull on the pantleg of opportunity. I know that the human being and the fish can coexist. Families is where our nation finds hope, Where our wings take dream. Put food on your family! Knock down the tollbooth! Vulcanize society! Make the pie higher! I am the Decider! (Pass this on. Help cure mad Cowboy disease in the next election.) Enjoy! Sheila Sheila Black --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:37:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Arte No Es Vida: Actions by Artists of the Americas, 1960-2000 - Art - Review - New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline El Museo del Barrio consistently has very excellent exhibitions, most often, as with the one reviewed here, in which the "conceptual and the political," despite great repression, find ways to flourish and challenge-- the exhibition, as it is "Art" doesn't include the huge amount of Performance and ephemeral pieces related with Visual Poetry and Mail Art that has been active in Latin America since the 1960's--Clemente Padin is the the foremost exemplar of an artist still working whose works span now five decades--including over two years' torture and imprisonment during the US supported Uruguayan military dictatorship-- hopefully some day these also will have the kind of celebration here they do in the countries in which they openly faced the Death Squads and US School of the Americas trained torturers and Chicago School "Shock Doctrine" economists as did the artists represented in this exhibition-- http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/arts/design/01vida.html?ref=arts --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:40:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Reality Too [blog] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm pleased announce the beginning of what I plan to be a monthly blog, = titled "Reality Too": Introduction: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/blog/intro.htm January (direct link): http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/blog/January.htm -Joel __________________________________ Joel Weishaus Research Faculty Department of English Portland State University Portland, Oregon http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 08:07:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thom Donovan Subject: PEACE ON A presents: Featherston & Taylor Cuneiform Press Launch TONIGHT In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peace On A presents Dan Featherston & Catherine Taylor reading for the launch of Featherston’s *The Clock Maker’s Memoir* (more info below!) Friday, February 1st 2008 8PM BYOB & $5 donation hosted by Thom Donovan with Cuneiform Press at: 166 Avenue A, Apartment #2 (btwn 10th and 11th) New York, NY 10009 about the readers: Dan Featherston is the author of several books of poetry, including *The Clock Maker’s Memoir* (Cuneiform Press, 2007), *United States* (Factory School , 2005), and *Into the Earth* (Quarry Press, 2005). His critical writings on American poetry and poetics have appeared in a number of publications, most recently Charles Olson: A Poet's Prose. While living in Tucson , he helped found POG, a poetry group that has hosted dozens of performances by poets and artists, and edited A.BACUS, a journal of experimental poetry and translation. Featherston is currently a visiting professor at Kutztown University. He lives in Philadelphia with Rachel McCrystal and their dog Fredo. Carceral Time Forced to sleep with their hands exposed how will a tool take shape? Dreams take the shapes of tools through which the body escapes itself. A wake. A spoon baked into a cake. In the fist of memory time was folding inward. (from *The Clock Maker’s Memoir*) Catherine Taylor teaches at Ohio University. Her essays, poetry, and reviews have recently appeared or are forthcoming in Typo, Xantippe, The Colorado Review, The Laurel Review, Jacket, and ActionNow. Taylor is a Founding Editor of Essay Press (www.essaypress.org), a small press dedicated to publishing book-length innovative essays. She is at work on a hybrid genre book about South Africa and a scholarly book about 20th-century documentary representations of political violence entitled */Documents of Despair/*. nobody, who are you? A fucking nation? Walcott I’m not. A roseate universe, subcutaneous nipple, prismatic cd playing cum and dust and Oum Kalsoum. National identity’s inevitable as sand, blood, a dark juggernaut MLK refused to accept despair as the only response to the ambiguities of history, but I can’t, today, so far from you, O Canada, who is asked to represent it. Which I’s slip the noose? Salim Halali’s heart may have been a foreign country, mine’s a minefield for you, h’bibi, skip the stones, centrifugal archipelago, ruin (from an untitled work) Peace On A is an events series devoted to emergent work by writers, artists, performers and scholars. Link Wild Horses of Fire weblog (whof.blogspot.com) for back advertisements, introductions, reading selections and pics. THE CLOCK MAKER'S MEMOIR by Dan Featherston Advanced praise for *The Clock Maker’s Memoir*: Through a series of poised, meditative stanzas, *The Clock Maker’s Memoir* takes on the formidable topics of time and memory. What’s evident throughout this book is a careful craftsmanship leading to novel perspectives all around the clock. ~ Lisa Jarnot *The Clock Maker’s Memoir* registers the world’s variety in small catalogs of storms, shadows, dreams, memories, and rituals of childhood. In such forms, time returns each time with a difference. Likewise, the supple measure of these poems returns us to a rhythm or tone each time with a difference, sounding a subtle echo of slipped in sleep. As William Blake declares, “There is a Moment in each Day that Satan cannot find / Nor can his Watch Fiends find it.” Yet Dan Featherston finds it — through alert and resourceful art. ~ Devin Johnston With its precise music, *The Clock Maker’s Memoir* navigates the immeasurable distance between the clock’s face and the face worn by lived experiences. In these poems, memoir is not some static repository: it is a poesis of the present tense. Featherston’s craft and his unblinking commitment to particulars fashion a lyric search that one can trust to ask the questions, the necessary questions of time, space, and how we find one another amidst all this memory. ~ Richard Deming This book will soon be available from Small Press Distribution (www.spdbooks.org). Order direct from Cuneiform (www.cuneiformpress.com) and you'll receive FREE SHIPPING. Send a $12 check to: Cuneiform | 214 North Henry Street | Brooklyn, NY 11222 “Effort lay in us before religions” ~ Lorine Niedecker ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:39:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Spiral Jetty Oil Drilling In-Reply-To: <297362.35127.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frankly, I'm amazed that the Spiral Jetty has lasted this long. There's lot of public art in the US that gets disappeared & no one says anything. At least this latest debacle should attract a lot of attention. ~mIEKAL On Jan 31, 2008, at 7:44 PM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > The Spiral Jetty environs is being threatened, by petroleum > interests no less. Hop and skip through the emails below for > details and > If you want to send a letter of protest to save the beautiful, > natural Utah environment around the Spiral Jetty from oil > drilling, the emails or calls of protest go to Jonathan Jemming > 801-537-9023 jjemming@utah.gov. Please refer to Application # > 8853. Every letter makes a big difference, they do take a lot of > notice and know that publicity may follow. Since the Spiral Jetty > has global significance, emails from foreign countries would be of > special value. > > . Feb 13 is verdict time. > > Thank you, > > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Subject: Fwd: Spiral Jetty Oil Drilling > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:32:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: **Last Call: Advertise in Boog City 48** Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please forward ------------------ Last Call to Advertise in Boog City 48 *Deadline --Thurs. Feb. 7-Ad or ad copy to editor --Sat. Feb. 9-Issue to be distributed Email to reserve ad space ASAP We have 2,250 copies distributed and available free throughout Manhattan's East Village, and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, Brooklyn. ----- Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $80 to $40. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG (2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:59:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: bodhisattvas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed bodhisattvas http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud01.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud02.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud03.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud04.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud05.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud06.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud07.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud08.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud09.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud10.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud11.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud12.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud13.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud14.jpg ,===> i was n. and a had telling been me her that four, the from age of close unclear. to time, suicide, eighth for we when year tried so, up lived with in painted, her, visited asylum else pills p. everyone how after cut she married someone june else. first around my it all sad no store, turned got shortly hear pin could what going met worse i i was was n. n. and and a a had had telling telling been been me me her her that that four, four, the the from from age age of of close close unclear. unclear. to to time, time, suicide, suicide, eighth eighth for for we we when when year year tried tried so, so, up up lived lived with with in in painted, painted, her, her, visited visited asylum asylum else else pills pills p. p. everyone everyone how how after after cut cut she she married married someone someone june june else. else. first first around around my my it it all all sad sad no no store, store, turned turned got got shortly shortly hear hear pin pin could could what what going going met met worse worse dark. dark. i close was i n. was and n. a and had a telling had been telling me been her me that her four, that the four, from the age from of age close of unclear. with to unclear. time, to suicide, time, eighth suicide, for eighth we for when we year when tried year so, tried up so, lived up with lived in she painted, in her, painted, visited her, asylum visited else asylum pills else p. pills everyone p. how everyone after how cut after she cut married got someone married june someone else. june first else. around first my around it my all it sad all no sad store, no turned store, got turned shortly worse hear shortly pin hear could pin what could going what met going worse met dark. dark. i close was i n. was and n. a and had a telling had been telling me been her me that her four, that the four, from the age from of age close of unclear. with to unclear. time, to suicide, time, eighth suicide, for eighth we for when we year when tried year so, tried up so, lived up with lived in she painted, in her, painted, visited her, asylum visited else asylum pills else p. pills everyone p. how everyone after how cut after she cut married got someone married june someone else. june first else. around first my around it my all it sad all no sad store, no turned store, got turned shortly worse hear shortly pin hear could pin what could going what met going worse met ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 12:01:52 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: the Poets' Corner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Poetry Community, to welcome the New Year _Western and Chinese_ with plenty of readers and writers and books and sunny and snowy days and with all what we can possibl= y wish and what we deserve, here is the new 2008 update of the Poets' Corner with: *Peter Thompson* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D262 *Athena Kildegaard* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D263 *Hoshang Merchant* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D264 *Bruno Ballardini* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D265 *Carol Novack* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D266 *Stephen Vincent* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D267 *Susan Firer* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D268 *Evie Shockley* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D269 *Diane Kendig* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D270 *Tony Trigilio* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D271 * * *Ren Powell* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D272 *New Poems of already Featured Poets:* *Tad Richards* and his ongoing poetic thriller/saga with *situations* up to Episode XIV =96 i.e. the end of Book 1; Book 2 soon to follow! http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D67 *Barry Alpert* L'INTOUCHABLE [via Benoit Jacquot] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2089 CLEO FROM FIVE TO=85 [via Agnes Varda] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2090 [A] SECRET DEFENSE [via Jacques Rivette] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2091 CLASSE TOUT RISQUES [via Claude Sautet] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2092 LES AMANTS REGULIERS [via Philippe Garrel] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2093 GRIN WITHOUT A CAT [via Chris Marker] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2094 RESNAIS' PROVIDENCE [via Alain Resnais] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2095 STORMY WATERS [via JEAN GREMILLON & JACQUES PREVERT] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2096 BOUDU SAUVE RENOIR [via Jean Renoir] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2097 FRENCH LADY CHAT [via Pascale Ferran] http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2098 *Richard Dillon* IMMORTAL BIRD LIVING ON A BREEZE http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2100 CODA: IMMORTAL BIRD LIVING ON A BREEZE http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2101 *Mark Young*'s Six ficciones: The Mao ficcione http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2113 The Schwarzvogel Ficcione http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2114 Meanwhile Electra http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2115 The Mung Economy http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2116 The Last Hurrah of the Golden Horde http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2117 At Trotsky's Funeral http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2118 *Ram Mehta* The Sounds of Korea http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2125 I live quietly http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2126 *Jon Corelis* Epigrams http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1980 Turning http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2136 *Charles Martin* CAPTION TO THE VISUAL (.pdf) http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2148 *Riccarda Turrina* Othmar Winkler rivisitato da Riccarda Turrina (.pdf) http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2150 *Sharon Brogan* How does one come to believe in the moon? http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2170 Wolf Moon http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2172 *Douglas Barbour* perfect circle http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2171 at minus 28C http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2179 *Barry Schwabsky* Diamond Replicas http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2180 *Under Poets on Poets:* * * *Nabile Far=E8s* translated by *Peter Thompson* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetsonpoets&pa=3Dlist_pages_c= ategories&cid=3D76 * * My translation of *Barry Schwabsky's Diary of a Poem* into Italian http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetsonpoets&pa=3Dlist_pages_c= ategories&cid=3D77 * I would like to thank all the poets present on the Poets' Corner for their collaboration. As usual the order I follow is the one by which I received the contributions. With my best wishes, --=20 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 05:57:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Kandinsky 2 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Kandinsky 2 (15 images, mostly 1280x1024): http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky2 dbCinema is a graphic synthesizer i'm writing in Director. one creates and configures 'brushes' that create a painterly movie using images as 'paint'. the underlying images in these are digitizations of paintings by the Russian early 20th C. avant garde abstract painter Wassily Kandinsky. each brush has an image source, which can either be a local folder of images (so you can use your own images) or one may type in the concept of the brush, and dbCinema then downloads images from the Net somehow related to the concept, and uses those as the brush's 'paint'. these were done with 2 simultaneous brushes. this is 'generative art' in that the program itself is quite active in the creative process. but the brushes are highly configurable, and interesting work does require creativity from whoever uses dbCinema. have been enjoying the Oulipo Compendium, edited by Harry Matthews. i quote: "From its beginnings the group has insisted on the distinction between "created creations" (créations créantes) and "creations that create" (créations créantes), to the benefit of the latter: it has been concerned not with literary works but with procedures and structures capable of producing them. When the first sonnet was written almost a thousand years ago, what counted most was not the poem itself but a new potentiality of future poems. Such potentialities are what the Oulipo invents or rediscovers." (p 213, under "Potential" I do more work in creating algorithms that are meant to be creative not simply by themselves but with creative engagement by people--ie, my work is 'interactive' in this sense--than I do in creating texts or pictures or sounds, etc., though I do that too. dbCinema is more a 'tool' than an artwork--in that very little of the 'content' is provided, which is one of the characteristics of tools, it seems to me--but the form of what is creatable in my work is not as general as in tools such as Photoshop or Word. Instead, the form of the creatable works is more constrained. The range varies. It isn't so much the range of the form as the appeal of the form, its expressive power, that interests me, though range is of course a consideration also. "When the first sonnet was written almost a thousand years ago, what counted most was not the poem itself but a new potentiality of future poems." In retrospect, yes, but who can say 'what counted' at the time of its creation? Was the writer of the first sonnet an intrepid formalist who decided to create a new form? Or did it evolve more incrementally, as do most things? Or did its genesis and birth cut across many such lines? I certainly don't know. Am also reading 'The Blind Watchmaker' by Richard Dawkins. He says that living things are apparently designed so marvelously, in many ways, that it takes a great deal to really understand how it could possibly be that they/we arose without a designer at all. And that is what he sets out to do in this book. It's very well-written. Simple and strong. I highly recommend it. more dbCinema images: http://vispo.com/dbcinema/meditations.htm ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 12:20:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Kandinsky 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit wow jim On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 05:57:26 -0800 Jim Andrews writes: > Kandinsky 2 (15 images, mostly 1280x1024): > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky2 > > dbCinema is a graphic synthesizer i'm writing in Director. one > creates and > configures 'brushes' that create a painterly movie using images as > 'paint'. > > the underlying images in these are digitizations of paintings by the > Russian > early 20th C. avant garde abstract painter Wassily Kandinsky. > > each brush has an image source, which can either be a local folder > of images > (so you can use your own images) or one may type in the concept of > the > brush, and dbCinema then downloads images from the Net somehow > related to > the concept, and uses those as the brush's 'paint'. > > these were done with 2 simultaneous brushes. > > this is 'generative art' in that the program itself is quite active > in the > creative process. but the brushes are highly configurable, and > interesting > work does require creativity from whoever uses dbCinema. > > have been enjoying the Oulipo Compendium, edited by Harry Matthews. > i quote: > > "From its beginnings the group has insisted on the distinction > between > "created creations" (créations créantes) and "creations that create" > (créations créantes), to the benefit of the latter: it has been > concerned > not with literary works but with procedures and structures capable > of > producing them. When the first sonnet was written almost a thousand > years > ago, what counted most was not the poem itself but a new > potentiality of > future poems. Such potentialities are what the Oulipo invents or > rediscovers." > (p 213, under "Potential" > > I do more work in creating algorithms that are meant to be creative > not > simply by themselves but with creative engagement by people--ie, my > work is > 'interactive' in this sense--than I do in creating texts or pictures > or > sounds, etc., though I do that too. dbCinema is more a 'tool' than > an > artwork--in that very little of the 'content' is provided, which is > one of > the characteristics of tools, it seems to me--but the form of what > is > creatable in my work is not as general as in tools such as Photoshop > or > Word. Instead, the form of the creatable works is more constrained. > The > range varies. It isn't so much the range of the form as the appeal > of the > form, its expressive power, that interests me, though range is of > course a > consideration also. > > "When the first sonnet was written almost a thousand years ago, what > counted > most was not the poem itself but a new potentiality of future > poems." In > retrospect, yes, but who can say 'what counted' at the time of its > creation? > Was the writer of the first sonnet an intrepid formalist who decided > to > create a new form? Or did it evolve more incrementally, as do most > things? > Or did its genesis and birth cut across many such lines? I certainly > don't > know. > > Am also reading 'The Blind Watchmaker' by Richard Dawkins. He says > that > living things are apparently designed so marvelously, in many ways, > that it > takes a great deal to really understand how it could possibly be > that > they/we arose without a designer at all. And that is what he sets > out to do > in this book. It's very well-written. Simple and strong. I highly > recommend > it. > > more dbCinema images: > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/meditations.htm > > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 12:22:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: Spiral Jetty Oil Drilling In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Speaking of public art disappearing... I live in Lansing, and for a long time there was a fantastic Michael Heizer sculpture down by the capitol. (You can google more info about the ensuing debacle with led to it being dismantled, so the city could use the space for PARKING! even after Heizer offered to restore the piece, and help with the cost). It is awful to see the complete disregard for public art. It was a coup for Lansing to get such an incredible piece. When it became clear, to the city, that the land was best used otherwise, it was easy to let the work rust and rot and have a safe excuse for demolishing it. Spiral Jetty, I fear, will one day fall away too. Even if we do our best to keep drilling, etc out, we're wrecking the global ecosystem so quickly that all we'll see in a few years will be some arranged rocks. On Feb 1, 2008 12:39 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Frankly, I'm amazed that the Spiral Jetty has lasted this long. > There's lot of public art in the US that gets disappeared & no one > says anything. At least this latest debacle should attract a lot of > attention. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Jan 31, 2008, at 7:44 PM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > > > The Spiral Jetty environs is being threatened, by petroleum > > interests no less. Hop and skip through the emails below for > > details and > > If you want to send a letter of protest to save the beautiful, > > natural Utah environment around the Spiral Jetty from oil > > drilling, the emails or calls of protest go to Jonathan Jemming > > 801-537-9023 jjemming@utah.gov. Please refer to Application # > > 8853. Every letter makes a big difference, they do take a lot of > > notice and know that publicity may follow. Since the Spiral Jetty > > has global significance, emails from foreign countries would be of > > special value. > > > > . Feb 13 is verdict time. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Stephen Vincent > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > Subject: Fwd: Spiral Jetty Oil Drilling > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 10:28:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / spring 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} SPRING 2008 Chicago, IL *Experiment #18: February 24 David Buuck & cris cheek guest curated by Jennifer Scappettone *Experiment #19: March 2 Kate Greenstreet & Jen Tynes *Experiment #20: April 19 Barrett Gordon, Matthew Klane, David Pavelich, Laura Sims, Kevin Thurston *Experiment #21: May 15 Miranda Mellis & Sarah Rosenthal February 24 & March 2 at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Avenue -- Chicago, IL in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 close to Grand & Pulaski http://www.spareroomchicago.org BYOB 7pm, doors lock at 7:30pm suggested donation $3 wheelchair accessible with assistance STARTING April 19 events will be held at a new surprise location TBA! more info soon Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. COMING UP: summer/fall 2008 Judith Goldman & Lily Robert-Foley Ira S. Murfin & Marisa Plumb Authors from the Encyclopedia Project, vol. 2 Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. Check out a review of our very first event http://www.timeout.com/chicago/articles/books/11603/word-play ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 12:06:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Audrey Berry Subject: Re: East Coast - poetry readings, where? In-Reply-To: <1201776549.27831.1234294723@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Where will you be? Any chance you will be on the east coast? --- Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > Will be Stateside for two weeks, 8 March - 23 March, > then back to PRC. > Anyway, and I know it's late in the game, as they > say, but any > information on places to read will be welcomed. Am > currently organizing > readings and a few exhibitions of Vispo. > > For work online: > > http://www.alexanderjorgensen.com > > New work, part of "China Series," at Mark Young's > major contribution: > > http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2007/12/alexander-jorgensen-from-china-series.html > > Alexander Jorgensen was born and raised of the most > mixed and common > stock. An incessant traveler, he has lived in the > United States, the > Czech Republic, the Galapagos Archipelago, India's > Himachal Pradesh (in > the lap of Himalaya), and the People's Republic of > China (where he has > divided his time since 2002). > > His work has most recently appeared in Big Bridge, > Vibrant Gray, > Shampoo, and Kabita Pakshik (translations into > Bengali by poet and > translator, Subhashis Gangopadhyay). "Letters to a > Younger Poet," > correspondences with the late Robert Creeley, > appears in Jacket Magazine > #31. > > Regards to all! > -- > Alexander Jorgensen > bangdrum@fastmail.fm > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying > for. Try it for free > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 13:25:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lanny quarles Subject: Havmophunic Transolutions update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Havmophunic Transolutions (The homophonics blog) is off to a good start with 21 members. Still room for more. Posts so far run as follow: Trains Late in a Pollen Aire An Attempt at some Bontok Transolutions Foambo ASS IS Eel Hypothesis Dust Blowhole After JMB's _Foambo_ o my phoamy She Vase, Sure and True. From a Section of Plato's Anterastai, or Rival Lovers http://havmophunic.blogspot.com/ Ella makes good cheese, bring a cracker, or cracquelure... Dewey knew. "Infleurmotion is powder!" y'all comme.. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Fabu Show Midnight Tonight (Saturday, Feb. 2) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed LAST NIGHT'S SHOW WAS HOT--TONIGHT'S WILL BE EVEN HOTTER! When/Where: Midnight at the Bowery Poetry Club . If you're not nearby, let your friends in NY know! Best wishes--and with vexed apologies to those of you with whom I shd =20= have been in touch much earlier, Walter "A splendid performance last night. I've seen a long list of =20 spectacles since I've been in New York, but few of them were so =20 dynamic, ravishing, and generally mind-blowing as this."--Nam J=FCrgenhol POETS OF THE UNREELED! A CinePoetry & Performance Extravaganza MULTIMEDIA POETS, artists, and musicians Linh Dinh, Wang Ping, Mark =20 Nowak, Paolo Javier (with Ernest Concepcion & Mike Estabrook), Jeremy =20= James Thompson, Kate Ann Heidelbach, dennis M. somera, and Dillon =20 Westbrook give live narrations of classic films, screen new videos, =20 pay homage to jazz drummers, and redraw on-stage some present scenes. =20= Curated by Walter K. Lew for shadoWord productions . SECOND SHOW Saturday, Feb. 2nd, Midnight-2 am At the Bowery Poetry Club. $8. 308 Bowery, on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. More info at . For some recent work by the participating poets and performers, see: WANG PING LINH DINH IAN TEH MARK NOWAK MIKE ESTABROOK Short Video PAOLO JAVIER Editor ERNEST CONCEPCION JEREMY JAMES THOMPSON KATE ANN HEIDELBACH & dennis M. somera WALTER K. LEW DILLON WESTBROOK * * * CONTACT: Walter K. Lew POETS OF THE UNREELED: A CinePoetry & Performance Extravaganza For more info, go to . Walter K. Lew Mobile ph: (213) 327-8091 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 21:47:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: spirit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed spirit spirit lurid speaks lured through me lured me sprite exalt breath pinned-down sprout more murmured light begone me up foregrounding wine-dark sea and red-dark sea through cells her gown jeweled inside and beside me dim sounded surge upwound again and urgent ecstasy http://www.alansondheim.org/conju01.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju02.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju03.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju04.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju05.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju06.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju07.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju08.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju09.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/conju10.jpg and violent ecstasy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:18:33 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Jesse Glass Reading At The University of Louisiana, Lafayette, Feb. 7th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Time: 7 p.m. Place: Rm. 315 in Griffin Hall on the campus of The University of Louisiana at Lafayette. (Griffin is located on the the corner of Rex and Lewis in Lafayette.) For More information: skip@louisiana.edu or 337-482-5491. Price of admission: Fresh John the Conqueror Root. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 00:16:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more interesting than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an awful lot going on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really caught up to the technological and aesthetic achievements of various electronic music types. Moreover, along with being more advanced and more challenging than a lot of the sound poetry i'm listening to on here, i tend to think that someone like for example the aphex twin or plastikman or iannis xenakis or glenn branca is also more accessible because they're coming at what they're doing from a starting place of music rather than a starting place of poetry. Googling around for search strings like "sound poetry" and "audio poetry" one tends to find a lot of recordings of readings, a lot of them pretty crummy qua recordings, which I guess is my complaint over all. I did find some stuff on PennSound that was kind of along the right track, things that were using signal processing to create sounds and which had an adequate level of audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep coming across sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a sound blaster 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for me to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me that the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened in poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But listening to what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes me suspect that there's some unmined territory as far as audiotextual work goes and maybe I should start taking my own thoughts on the matter a little more seriously. So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't the sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the interest, and in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or terrible consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily that I might not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm looking for is like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that sees the potential of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live reading or euro modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant garde jazz/musique concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to be the bulk of what's out there. Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references to any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. Thanks, Jason Quackenbush ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:28:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Ahadada in Memphis, Tennessee, Feb. 11th, 12th, 13th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If poetry is happening in Memphis on those days, I'd like to know about the venues and would be happy to participate (if only to add my applause) before heading back to Hikaru Genji-Land. Please back-channel Jesse Glass--who is not, contrary to rumor--Evis' love child by Joey Heatherton. Sincerely, The Great Etc. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 00:38:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: andrea strudensky Subject: Buffalo Poetry Event Feb 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please join us down at the Love Factory 2008 Date : February 17th (Sunday) Place: Rustbelt Books 202 Allen Street Time : Event begins at 4pm 4pm Theater Figüren * Courtney Pfahl 98' (short break) 5pm James Currie “I will not, and neither will music.” * Dinner & drinks (provided), general frivolity (you’re on your own) 7pm Oak Orchard Swamp “Not really a swamp” (short break) 8 pm Ric Royer “Instructions for behavior at the end of the known world.” * Shane and the Lonelies “total bullshit” (Thank you to Steve McCaffery and Rustbelt Books for making this event possible) http://www.music.buffalo.edu/faculty/currie/index.shtml http://www.ricroyer.com/Welcome.html http://www.myspace.com/oakorchardswamp http://costapuppets.com/ http://www.myspace.com/shaneandthelonelies --------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:28:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Messay (finished on my birthday, ah well) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed (really apologies for sending so much material out recently. i've been working furiously on 'emanent' materia and wanted to 'capture' what's close to a book as it comes. right or wrong, there are implications for poetics, phenomenology, etc., i think, or would like to think. anyway, here is the most confused essay of all. after this, back to image/sound, both of which are easier for me, shape-riding into oblivion.) Messay: The Mess of the True World This text is culled from an outline of current work prepared for my re- search group at West Virginia University (Virtual Environments Laboratory, Center for Literary Computing), Morgantown, WV. Questions dealing with substantive content were taken in the order they appeared, and embedded in the following m/essay. Topics again center around issues of the 'true world,' emanents, medical and other modeling, avatars, organisms, know- ledge and its management. The relative disorderliness reflects the disord- erliness of the world, or so I hope to believe - not an inherent defect in messay style. what does it mean to be in-carnated within the real/virtual/ true world? Carnated/carnal/knowledge - We could begin by introducing the true world, the world of mind in relation to ontological/epistemological shifting. The true world is primordial, in other words backgrounding. ..."however, we use the word [_materialism_] in its dictionary definition of _embodiment,_ in contract to _mind._ Thus, virtual reality, as dis- cussed within the art literature [...] is materialist, regardless of whether this experience is _real_ or _illusory._ Mental constructs, on the other hand, are nonsensory and so have no material existence." Paul Fish= wick, An Introduction to Aesthetic Computing, in Fishwick, ed., Aesthetic Computing, MIT, 2006. In this sense, the true world is materialist; how- ever I would argue that mental constructs cohere with the sensory, that a fundamental entanglement exists. For example, love or hate create sensed bodily transformations, mathematical thought creates the sensation of per- ceived 'symbol-clouds,' and so forth. what are the edge-phenomena/plastic and static limits of the body? The limits of my body within the true world are the limits of my world; here I include ontological shifts such as mathesis, semiosis, emotions and the like. Given the limited bandwidth of receptors of all sorts, and the limitations of mind (for example, in thinking through the appearance of the eighth dimension, calculating, speaking non-native languages, etc.), thought and the true world are based on extrapolation - the _gestural_ - as fundamental being. (See Tran Duc Thao on the origins of language.) The gestural follows quantum non-distributive logics (see the early experi- ments by Land on color vision), not Aristotelian distributive logics; this being-in-the-world is partial reception of part-objects transformed into inherency through gesture. All organisms have this in common. The _plastic_ limits of the body are the limits of body-inherency, whether 'real' or 'virtual' or other category - the limits of the image carried by the jectivity (introjection and projection) braid. The _static_ limits may be considered formal-measurable limits, whether in one or another space. of the geopolitical body? of the political-economic body? As soon as one brings domain-extrapolation of the body into play (i.e. sexual body, material body, imaginary body, natural body, and so forth), cultural nexus is paramount, and the body itself moves within theory as phenomenological token or punctum. And as soon as one brings variegated ontologies and epistemologies into play, analysis becomes a mush/mess/mass or miss. Terms slide against terms, carrying enormous overdetermined histories with them - but these are the only histories there are. what are the signifiers of bodily arousal/violence/meditation? how are these constituted within the true world? Herewith bee a liste of signes, or some such. But where is the arousal, violence, meditation, if not brainward, wearing the exposure, softening, hardening, quiescence of the body which simultaneously is foregrounded and absenting. In terms of emanents, the signs are symbolic; one calculates, applies them. In term of organism, the signs are ikonic, upwelling. The brain manages none of this; the brain manages, is managed - everything becomes a mess as inquiry tangles uselessly. It's this uselessness, this nexus, that is of interest - an analytical failure in the close-rubbed maw of the world. readings: what does it mean to read the real body? the virtual body? One might begin by considering language as fundamentally ikonic, that within the preconscious ('repository' of syntactics, short-term memory - another metaphor) language is clothed, associated with the true world. Language then is structured like the unconscious, and the unconscious does not necessarily splay the real. Bodies, organic and emanent (and 'organic' references the machinic phylum as well), inhere to mind, minding, tending, a posteriori interpretation and hermeneutics. Reading the body is embody- ing, is against the background of incarnation. Sheave-skins need not react or appear to sense as organic skins; the feedback is often visual or aural, not proprioceptive. Within the jectivity braid, this is an epistem- ological issue, not one of fundamental locus. On the other hand (real or virtual), one can abandon the emanent; abandoning the organic is deadly. Proceed backwards from this, from the irretrievable, intolerable, finality of death, and reading bodies, and bodily risk, become wildly disparate. Nevertheless both inhabit the true world, mind inhabits both, albeit often in qualitatively different manners, depending on ontology. what are the ontologies and epistemologies involved here? ontological status of the so-called virtual - Schroedinger's cat paradox and collapse of the wave function as model for simultaneous analogic/digital readings - seeing through microscopy (tunnel, scanning, optical, etc.): are ontology and epistemology equivalent at the limit? (are analogic and digital equivalent at a parallel limit?) What difference does it make? Begin with the mess, with the corrupted reading of whatever consciousness has placed there, on the page, the rock, the emanent body, the organic body. The last carries ikonic signs, simultaneously indexical, pointing out the mute history of the being. If there were only readers of everything! If only the book of nature existed! The Ladder! Great Chain of Being! Ontologies occur in local domains, rub raw against each other, problema- tize each other. Who decided this one or that one as primordial? What's fundamental is the mixed mess, the braid. At least as far as we're con- cerned, the braid. internals and externals, static/dynamic. remnants of the visible human project, gendering of the visual/internal Human skin under the microtome, sheave-skin burrowed into by camera position. Here is the necessity of Madhyamika, co-dependent origination, depend co-origination, braided mind, image, imaginary, entity, real and virtual within, inhering to the true world. Striated, variegated trans- formations characterize life; the Visible Human Project transforms organism into emanent, habitus into data-base. comfort, dis/comfort, ease, dis/ease, hysteria and abjection/fluid- ity (laycock's 1840 essay on hysteria, kristeva, chasseguet-smirgel) Clearly the abject lies within the primordial, the braid is braid of dissolution, corruption, decay; definitions flux in relation to the constricted passing of time. Organisms flood themselves, emanents decay with their corporations, software updating, diminishing dreamtimes as elders die off. Hysteria is convulsion, but also spew, contrary and wayward, the refusal of the body, just as death is such a refusal and catatonia. Do others refuse the body? Use it? Reuse it? Are sheave-skins exchanged? Does political economy depend on aegis? dis/ease, hysteria, and so forth of emanents Dis/ease, etc. may be modeled; turning the emanent towards abjection is necessarily a conscious decision. The hysteria of emanents is the hys- teria of the steering mind. Proliferation of emanents, duplications and other hacks, may be considered a form of hysteria. But hysteria is on the surface; emanents which are autonomous or semi-autonomous agents may exist the full range of symptoms, generated from within, without external steering. medical model and technology A medical model implies internal flows, striations, identities, vulner- abilities, immunological defenses, maintenance and so forth. Emphasis is on the cohering of parts, membranes and molecular channels. Organism runs from within; emanent runs from without. An emanent may be defined as _an image or apparition whose body and mind are elsewhere,_ an entity that exists in relation to the jectivity braid, and has apparent, but not genidentical, identity. Of course the organic body itself is genidentical only to a limited extent. One might say then that both ontologically and epistemologically, _an emanent exists within data-bases or other entities spatio-temporally distant from the visual or other residue._ What we see is surface, but surface from both within and without. _The dissection of an emanent image is the result of camera angle._ psychoanalytics and technology, psychoanalytics of emanents The psychoanalytics of emanents are two-fold: the psychoanalytics of mind steering, and the internal psychoanalytics of the machinic phylum. Or three-fold if the former is also embedded within/embedding the psycho- analytics of organically-embodied mind. I would begin with Freud's metapsychology, since it's illusory clarity allows the possibility of equivalence, attribute classes, and the like. I would attach this model to one of drives and instincts dealing at least in part with homeostatic maintenance (which I have covered elsewhere). analogic and worn emanent boundaries How does the emanent wear? How does it wear the analog? For an emanent to _wear,_ an ontological shift must be crossed, the wear occurring in hard or flash drive, in the material world of atoms and quantum probabilities. edge / boundary phenomena - physics and psychophysics of the game-world edge in second life Psychophysical remapping of (motion, behavior) steering phenomena. What else to say here? Camera views must be independent of emanents; they move beyond, behind, below the sheave-skins, constructing visual feedback of morphed transformations. For a moment nothing is autonomic, everything is relearned. But there are asymptotic behaviors and motions at the edge of every game-world, behaviors simultaneously permitting approach and refus- ing escape. The game-world edges harbor autisms, palsies, deconstructions - chatterings which take on the guise of everyday life, just as everyday life elsewhere within the game-world might well take on these chatterings as style or news from afar. phenomena of the sheave-skin and sheave-skin internals Sheave-skin externals read as internals: anatomical mappings within Poser. First that the visual mappings are just that, indexicals, residue, from codings, reports from another frontier, that of the software processes themselves. Second, I have pointed out elsewhere that sheave-skin and environment, visuals, all exist within the same ontological habitus; the split is between this habitus and deeper discrete or digital processes. The split is absolute ontologically, constructed epistemologically. If there is an Absolute in sheave-skin or game-theory or game-world, it's this ontological split which even a representation of software processes cannot penetrate: from electron-movement and process configuration/deploy- ment to visual/aural/tactile/etc. appearance - the gap is permanent, imminent, and therefore uncanny. phenomena of medical models in relation to edge/boundaries The medical model is for learning, for analogy of surface to surface. The medical model requires a (human) viewer. Any dissection into the substance of an organic body results in exposed and constructed surfaces; interiors always lie elsewhere, revealed by X-ray, MRI, and so forth. edge phenomena in literature, codework, mathesis of the text In a sense all writing is edge, phenomena of the edge; writing exists as surface, sheave-skin, emanent. Inscription coats the orgasm of things, constructs both things and orgasm, wryting into the body of the true world helter-skelter. Codework in this regard is mute, ikonic; code and text scrape one another, none dominant, both structured and structuring. generalization of edge phenomena into the dialectic between tacit knowledge (polyani) and error (winograd/flores) At the edge, the world is manifest between lived experience and corrup- tion, between trial and error, between inhering/cohering and construction, between dwelling and building. into the forest of error, where does the body go? From the edge, one can look back or down, into the windows of the comfortable houses across the street - if one still has the capability of sight. Is the edge sharp? Does the world cut? Is the edge equivalent to death, both blank, beyond, both miasma of theory and practice? Think else- wise of the possibilities of worlds of closed manifolds or recursions, one repeatedly returning, to something in the vastness of space or mind. and then think, what a construct, what comfort, and to what regard, what proof or results, what Signs? what constitutes worlds? constructing? world of the text, inhabitation/dwelling/building (heidegger, dufrenne) It's too simple to insist on worlds cohering, or that within their do- main (ontological, epistemological), there is closure. One might say that, for all intents and purposes, worlds are nearly closed, that blurred boun- daries are distanced, rarely in evidence. The construction of worlds is no more or less problematic than the construction of anything at all. A world is characterized by inhabitation; a world is a homing. The world of the text forgets its coding, its double-coding. Without that forgetting, erasure, the text is anomalous, problematic, non-cohering. The willing suspension of disbelief begins within the absence of will; will returns when the text ends or fails. what constitutes the true world? worlding? 'true world' in which lines/angles are 'trued' (affine geometry), 'true world' in the sense of 'trued' phenomenologies within which virtual, real, and ikonic are blurred and interpenetrating, somewhat equivalent, and within which traditional epistemologies of symbol/ sign/signifier/signified/index/ikon etc. break down (kalachakra tantra, jeffrey hopkins) 'Worlding' references ongoing inhabiting and making of the (true) world, inhabiting memory, making and dwelling in memory, the truing of the world. All worlds are not true worlds, all true worlds are worlding. ikonic signs inhere within the true world, reading bodies (organisms, emanents, approp- riated, misappropriated) are ikonic, true world, the body stands for everything and nothing; ikonic, the body stands in for the body. 'reading' underlying (substructural, configuration files, guides) organization of mocap/scan through surface phenomena (and the relationship of this reading to waddington's epigenetic landscapes) Oh, one has to read the cinema I produce, held taut through diagram and substructure. Reading here involves decoding, retaining the decoding against the memory or remembrance of absent code. There are epigenetic landscapes of decoding, tendencies and tending of the true world sending the reader one or another wayward or contrary way. Landscapes lead toward coagulation of landscapes, tethered desire of inhabiting an other. We can't let go of ourselves, even to read; we huddle, in order to write. who is world? communality, consensuality? the problem of other minds and the problem of consensual other minds (group hallucinations, vijnanavada, dwarf sightings, ufos, etc.) We can't answer this. We can't answer this without further future know- ledge in terms of mind. We have experienced, at least once, the connect- edness of mind, but to generalize from this is problematic. I have no doubt of minding the world, minding the world of minds. And that one time may well have been untoward coincidence. Certainly "who is world?" is a proper question to ask, emanent and organism alike entailed. And certainly we are all emanents, and certainly we receive differently from different skins, tissue-skins, sheave-skins, molecular-membrane-skins, one-pixel- thick-skins, true world of inhering/cohering skins. It is not communality or consensuality that beg definition, but their absence: what cause the illusion of individuation, the lived discrete? At this point, defuge sets in, the intolerable directing of the messay increasingly turns towards entanglement; nothing is answered or accounted (nothing is accountable). What to do but abandon the true world to a certain trembling at the edge - an edge which increasingly moves towards an unknown center (the real edge where damage begins). And what to do but abandon this attempt at another accretionary formation or inscription, living in the world as-if there were a certain human, if not organic, order. As-if is the pleasure of our senses and disfigurement of slaughter, as if these were speakable between the axle and the rim (the spokes, too, have their gaps). Let it go. Do let it go. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:26:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: <0C88F964-CC68-4FE0-8B89-36A2C608F6A7@myuw.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hi jason, to me, the most interesting audio artist with an intense engagement with language is gregory whitehead. i was producing a literary radio show when i first heard his work around 1985. not only does he do amazing audio work, but writes about it extrordinarily well. http://gregorywhitehead.com http://ubu.com/sound/whitehead.html i first heard his work on a Telus cassette. It also featured work by Susan Stone and Jay Allison. I delved into it, contacted Whitehead, and discovered a scene of 'audio writing'. It included artists such as Helen Thorington, who now produces http://turbulence.org . She was producing a series, at the time, called New American Radio ( http://somewhere.org ). She was commissioning artists to produce audio art that was aired on NPR and elsewhere. And she was editing columns on audio art in EAR mag from NY. Other artists involved in it were Jacki Apple, Douglas Kahn, Pamela Z, and many others ( http://somewhere.org/NAR/links/links.htm ). These are not all writers, per se. The backgrounds range around quite a bit. But that's one of the cool things not only about radio art and the art of recorded sound, but also, say, the art of the net. The New American Radio crew was my first taste of an art practiced by people from many arts, each of whom brought something special to the art of radio/recorded sound. The main thing is that they were taking recorded sound and radio seriously (as well as live radio) as artistic media. I think that's the crucial thing. One of the main precursors of the 'audio writers' of the eighties was William S. Burroughs and his experiments with audio cutups. But, also, the early sound poets, while they weren't doing anything much concerning the materiality of tape and so on, made some very interesting recording. But Whitehead, oh, you have to listen to Whitehead. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:46:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sue walker Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: <0C88F964-CC68-4FE0-8B89-36A2C608F6A7@myuw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jason, I am very interested in sound poetry. It seems to me a direction that could add vitality and life to poetry particularly in the classroom. I wonder how sound poetry can be taught in an ordinary classroom with limited technology resources. I'm just a poet, but my son is an audio engineer working on an master's in music / business at NYU. Growing up, I used to play the piano and clarinet -- but that has dropped by the sayside during the years. I teach at the University of South Alabama in Mobile -- so we're too isolated from things that are happening in cities like New York and San Francisco. Still we have happenings like Mardi Gras (this Tuesday) and it seems to me that cries and revelry ought to have some cultural play in the making of poetry. I would like at least to know a lot more than I do which is next to nothing but wanting. Sincerely, Sue Walker On Feb 3, 2008, at 2:16 AM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art > archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the > experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more > interesting than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an > awful lot going on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really > caught up to the technological and aesthetic achievements of > various electronic music types. Moreover, along with being more > advanced and more challenging than a lot of the sound poetry i'm > listening to on here, i tend to think that someone like for example > the aphex twin or plastikman or iannis xenakis or glenn branca is > also more accessible because they're coming at what they're doing > from a starting place of music rather than a starting place of > poetry. Googling around for search strings like "sound poetry" and > "audio poetry" one tends to find a lot of recordings of readings, a > lot of them pretty crummy qua recordings, which I guess is my > complaint over all. I did find some stuff on PennSound that was > kind of along the right track, things that were using signal > processing to create sounds and which had an adequate level of > audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep coming across > sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a sound blaster > 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. > > So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's > sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out > experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily > seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals > produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for > years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i > have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for > me to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me > that the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened > in poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But > listening to what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes > me suspect that there's some unmined territory as far as > audiotextual work goes and maybe I should start taking my own > thoughts on the matter a little more seriously. > > So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art > (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't > the sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the > interest, and in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or > terrible consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily > that I might not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm > looking for is like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that > sees the potential of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live > reading or euro modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant > garde jazz/musique concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to > be the bulk of what's out there. > > Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references > to any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. > > Thanks, > > Jason Quackenbush ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:06:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: happy birthday alan sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit have a great day, alan! -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:39:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lanny quarles Subject: Harmurenger to the Eleusine Choroarcanax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE PLATES http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/images/platpg/ Tulip Two-ply, pleased, Upon a plea to deploy, gnipped at gbits. Mapping the Pli, and REM-App.ing the Pli Appalled alloys alloyed Apollo's leas (think past N, or thru), Insecting its various exjective volumetries, the drawing- force at one threemove from its absploitative unteger vecrying petrect perfraction, deconsieves. An din that murmeant's ohm, a decimallific solubelicosity ensews, close openings interafterm a mimittent rufulousnous in their rifted encloying mussage. Dysappyramis ennurned upon velvet vertuous stones of triaxonial phanerobaronage, barnaculed wavelutes encingulofted towards the aerovial glitaschinus of gleeting harmuonium armurena. ousiareon aei aei estin o(n)ion estinousia est in naoisia specific connection: NOISE, NAUSEA, NAOS (CAUSE, COUSIN, COSINE, CHAOS) 'nocte' ~ itkon ( beauty as substance, fraud, and absolute)[shun] [that implicit "Is the belief of God, the belief in beauty?" or adjust the opposite?] iconic (ich on ich, chi on chi) eye on eye [chyle on chyle]~ stone on stone Sign-Hyle, Senile, Syn Isle, A! delphic Hearthlightlore... THE PLATES http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/images/platpg/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: on declaring oneself "new" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:55:51 -0600 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute In-Reply-To: <47A5E685.6070309@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Poetry Foundation Launches Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute CHICAGO —The Poetry Foundation is pleased to announce the launch of the Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute, a new initiative designed to address issues of importance to poetry by bringing together leading advocates and practitioners of the art form—poets, scholars, critics, translators, publishers, arts administrators—and thinkers from all areas of arts and culture. When fully established, the Poetry Institute will: • Stimulate fresh ideas by bringing together creative thinking and practical realities, recognizing that a lively presence for poetry in our culture depends on both • Conduct research on issues, needs, and opportunities in the poetry community • Design action-oriented programs and partnerships to benefit poetry For its inaugural events the Poetry Foundation is collaborating with the Aspen Institute, an organization with a broad interdisciplinary reach and an established expertise in convening diverse groups of people. Together with the Institute’s Harman-Eisner Program in the Arts, the Poetry Foundation is surveying leaders in the poetry community to determine the most pressing needs of the art form. “The Foundation is eager to hear the recommendations and priorities of poets, and those involved in publishing and distributing poetry, for how we as a community can work together to the benefit of poetry,” said John Barr, president of the Poetry Foundation. “The results of the query will help frame the Institute’s initial program.” Based on information received from the first phase of inquiry, the Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute will commission and conduct research throughout 2008. At a conference to be held in Aspen in the spring of 2009, invited participants will discuss the research, debate findings, and recommend steps to address the identified needs of the art form. Findings from the conference will shape the Institute’s subsequent activities, including research, programs, and collaborations. Ultimately the Poetry Foundation expects to implement programs based on these recommendations. The Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute, which will operate as an ongoing program of the Poetry Foundation, is located at the Foundation offices in Chicago. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/foundation/release_012908.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:13:13 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: happy birthday alan sondheim In-Reply-To: <47A5E685.6070309@ilstu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT yes, indeed. don't apologize for all the poetry. it gets better and better. blessings, g On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > have a great day, alan! > > > > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 14:35:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: <0C88F964-CC68-4FE0-8B89-36A2C608F6A7@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Jason-- i think perhaps by imposing an already pre-formed, idealized standard of aesthetic and technical values taken from other areas than Sound Poetry you are not, of course, finding, much of what is Sound Poetry. And if one cannot recognize the elements of an art form which have been developed through a hundred years nearly of its "modern history" , then how is one t= o recognize them even when these appear in a Hi Fi, "state of the art" example? As a charactrer in a story of mine puts it: "Above all the practice of literature requires a rigorous reading of those texts which present themselves continuously as already written, yet are not recognized as such, in favor of those only which one is indoctrinated = to know as the readable by those who write them." And in the NY Times today, in an article on Jasper Johns, one finds this, with quotes from Johns: 'his interpretation of flags and targets, numbers and letters =97 things, a= s he has often said, "the mind already knows," "things that were seen and not looked at, not examined"' So it is with Sound Poetry, one listens anc creates in examining those things which have been heard, but not listened to. What is the sound, for example, Walt Whitman launches when he writes "My voices goes after/What my eyes can't reach"? The voice trying to reach by sounds things "beyond reach"--"of the eyes"--i= n a sense the first sounds a human makes at birth, before the eyes can clearl= y see--are the origins of Sound Poetry--as they are of Henri Chopin's "Cris" in their transits through his manipulations of his vocalizations with the use of magnetic tape and other recording machines. Since the 1950's there has been a vast amount of work done with using the tape recording of the voice as a way of expanding the ranges of the voice's sounds, mixing vocalizations, etc. etc-- A lot of the great innovative work done with the use of recording machines in the 1950's and 1960's--of course may not sound so "Hi Fi" by today's terms--but if one studies what is actually being done with the human voice, the ways the structuring of pieces are created through the use of the lenghtening of phrases, manipulations of volume, pitch, the juxtapositions of human vocal sounds in ways never before heard, by cutting them up, splicing, repeating, rhythmically accelerating or blurring, or driving howl= s into a stratospheric chaos of noise, one finds an immsense amount of material and exmaples still to work with. In these works, the ways in which the sound of the human voice is sculpted spatially and composed with in terms of time--i think a lot of the work is still very extraordinary, and the thinking involved in it, the ideas, is is "advanced" in many ways as thinking which is still going on with these issues. Henri Chopin, who was written of recently as he had passed away, was one of the great pioneers in this area. The Lettristes worked with some recorded experimental Sound Poetry, Bob Cobbing did many experiments with tape recordings--there are many groups from Sweden, England, Canada, Latin America, Europe who worked along these lines and do to this day. The use of the voice itself, in Sound Poetry, is not limited in the way it is by "poetry," in that there is no need for "words;" sound as in the literal meaning of Zaum, is "Beyond Reason/Rationality" and exploring other dimensions of expressions not "anchored" by "texts." The connection with Visual Poetry is in the use of notations which do not "read" like any form of standardized text or notation. In the case of Bob Cobbing, there is no longer even a "score" or "notation" used at alll--anything--a rock--a side walk crack--may be used as a visual form with which to respond. We used to use also the moving shadows of trees' leaves as they moved among the side walk cracks--via a visual finding, the ear and voice become ever more "attuned" so to speak to the immediate environment. Sound Poetry is also a way of learning to listen with differing attentions, hearing what is the unheard in plain sound so to speak. I think perhaps your difficulty in looking for Sound Poetry is you are looking for what it is not--music, technological "cleanliness," "technological and aesthetic achievements of electronic music," standardize= d ideas of "poetry" as something limited to the page and defined by sets of rules or "anti-rules." There is sound poetry that is very wel recorded, edited and the like, and that which is very simple, low fi, low tech, basically a document of the performance, In which the sounds of the voice with all their grains, dirt, rasps, the air in the room, the haze of smoke or smog or of any moment is present. Sound poetry can be done and has been as a kind of Laboratory work--and as Art Brut--as everything from Artaudian shrieks and howls, Cobbings' hisses, Chopin's "Cris," the explosive demolitions of Jaap Blonk, the Terror Police States expressed by Clemente Padin's work--to uses of silence and near silence, murmurings, whispers, to the blues-influenced simultaneously dual-vocalized sound poetry of Paul Dutton. (This is to nam= e just a few of the great many figures who span the decades beginning in the early 1950's to present.) Sound Poetry--in a sense--has it appears here/hear a hidden in plain sight/sound quality to it, in that in being sought after, it is being done so by all the means of which it is not itself made in the senses defined as requiring a "sound art" of "sound poetry." (I.E. "having a sound foundatio= n technically, aesthetically, by the standards of other art forms.") Sound Poetry is a challenge to the conventional ideas of poetry and its dependence on words, texts, and on music, with its scores and normative forms of recording, performance, etc. The use of the human voice, the oldest instrument, can be made directly or using any technical means of expression, just as with any instrument. What is important is that it is a human voice sounding what it finds, within and around it self as a being, a= s a call and response with that which is. Sound Poetry one might say shatters that "upper limit music lower limit speech" set of limitations which are imposed as being "poetry," and which are intended to limit this to the word alone, or to a limited conception of music. Sound Poetry can be a way of expressing those states which are not defined, limited, tied to the conceptions of words, or of music, with their attendant systems of control. The linking of Sound and Visual Poetry has been very productive since Dada, and many of the artists I mentioned here were also Visual Poets or edited and published journals which featured a great deal of Visual Poetry and related work. Sound Poetry since Zaum, Italian Futurism and Dada has also had a politica= l element, which has found form especially in many works by Padin and also Blonk, among a great many. Chopin was very influenced by the Anarchist thinker Max Stirner, and Bob Cobbing's Writers Forum was very often critiqued for its "Anarchism." Another aspect of Sound Poetry that is very useful to think on is that on may make it anywhere, anytime--with the voice, with breathing. Reading of the Internet outages in India and parts of the Middle East due to the problems with some underwater cables, and, today, of the State control of the Internet in China, one is reminded again that the conceptions of technology and aesthetics which the electronics give rise to can be as easily shut off as a light bulb. There is very much alive the 19th century idea of "progress" being linked with the technological in terms of "aesthetics" as in all other spheres of existence. One of the advantages o= f this is that it gives the creation of and obeisance to Authority new degree= s of power, "standards," "limits," and helps to produce control and conformity. The direction of what is thought of as being the "highest level" of information, aesthetics, "Authority," and the like becomes transferred to a realm which is in fact more easily controlled and limited. Hi-Fi can become then the representative of that which has passed all the tests of censors, experts, authorities and become "the purest form of expression of Values" "of a culture," of a State, of an "avant-garde" which has become as it were "preserved in amber." The "avant-garde" has tended to emerge not hand in hand with "most advanced technology" but with on the contrary, a reversal, in which is introduced into "art" is that which is hidden in plain sight in "the common thing anonymously about us" as WCW put. Think of Duchamp's "Fountain," for example, or that one-man avant-garde Kurt Schwitters/Merz, with his use of trash from the streets for collages, his "Ur-Sonate", his Merzbau of found objects. A great deal of the most "advanced" work comes from the use of th= e most debased and overlooked materials, the lack of equipment, the making-do of DIY. Later on, once the artist is famous and wealthy, or the "movement" has begun to acquire institutional and investor cache--then of course, ther= e is the funding and the ability to attract persons as assistants or "new artists" who are able to use the new technologies. Butt the genesis of the avant-garde has tended to come from the street level, from dumpsters and thrown away newspapers, more than from "Hi-Fi." What will be found in the "Hi-Fi" realms at first is more likely to be what is considered already a "classical avant-garde" conception derived from the earlier forms which cam= e out of the First Sound--a baby's cry--the Big Bang--a Chaos--out of which later on come the words, thee music, the forms, the developments of technologies. And when this reaches a point of overload, it flips back int= o noise--and begins again--as something other-- The journals Leonardo and Visible Language may be places to take a look for what you are asking about. I don't myself, but am sure others here do, and wish you al the best with your search. A suggestion though as you know engineering--since after all the "avant-garde' is a military term, that is where to perhaps also conduct an investigation in terms of "Hi Fi" as well as DIY. For a series of "annals of the New Extreme Experimental American Poetry" an= d series of fictions, I've found these areas are well worth studying. I think a lot of Hi Fi work can be done with some engineering/electronics knowledge and those things which are at hand, as so many of them are alread= y in themselves already so "highly developed." I think in a sense that what you are looking for has many elements however which would be those which might preclude a great deal of very interesting and profound work. At a certain point of the Hi Fi scale, one begins to enter a realm which tends to become "cleaned" of of the mess and dirt of th= e human voice's more dissonant and perhaps dissident expressiveness, outside the "music/speech" limits. In a very strange sense, one could say for example that one form of Hi Fi "sound poetry" might be the kinds of sounds found on the "destroyed" CIA torture tapes. There one might find the the "most advanced and highest levels of techniques" employed in order to force the production of human sounds, recorded with the most advanced equipments, so that they may be the most closely "analysed" for any fragment at all, any phoneme, any shred of = a morpheme, that might resemble, amid the "noise," a scrap of "information." The quality of sound of "listening devices" from satellites, the productio= n of "recordings in/of" space, of undersea movements--there are ever higher levels of equipment along these lines available at ever lower prices to the public, so it is possible a new Hi Fi avant-garde could be constructed alon= g the lines of equipments found in the pages of journals like Soldiers of Fortune, as well as at radio Shack. Again, one can--and people do--develop "avant-gardes" at street level which one has to wait until they become "acceptable" as "aesthetics" to find them at what is regarded from the aesthetic point of view as Hi Fi. Reading of the methods Al-Queda used at one point to transmit communication= s without being detected by the highest quality listening devices in the world--one finds again the use of the cheapest, "junk" linked in a series o= f hookups that leap by the most ingenious means among several different forms of message carrying, including satellites, across quite a large distance. And the only evidence found later is the remains of a dime store disposable phone. I perform and make Sound Poetry myself--and hope at some point to have access to doing much more work with some more developed methods of recordin= g than i have currently available. For notations I use anything at the momen= t as well as Visual Poetry notations and even some that are just hand written soundings written down as one hears them in the head or from the environmen= t using the roman alphabet. Due to the means i have, obviously this is still "low tech, low fi," A question to think on is what you are perhaps asking for is not so much the quality of the work itself as the quality of the recording, in which to some degree perhaps there is an idea that a better level of recording might indeed elicit a more "classical" Hi Fi High Art form of listening experienc= e which in turn is presumed perhaps to be equated with a High Aesthetic Quality also. Good Sound Quality in a sense being implied perhaps to go hand in hand with Good Quality Avant-Garde Hi Fi. In a sense is this a form of a "Return of the Aura" within Walter Benjamin's "Age of Mechanical Reproduction," then--= ? Believe me, I would love to work with some much better equipment than i hav= e yet, but i think without all the dirt and mess of working in other ways, on= e would not be able to recognize what it is one is finding in entering anothe= r level of materials and tools. There are however, already a great many guide= s spanning a near century of work and recordings ongoing. I have some links to add to this for you but my ride for the super bow l is waiting outside-- On Feb 3, 2008 12:16 AM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art > archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the > experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more interesting > than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an awful lot going > on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really caught up to the > technological and aesthetic achievements of various electronic music > types. Moreover, along with being more advanced and more challenging > than a lot of the sound poetry i'm listening to on here, i tend to > think that someone like for example the aphex twin or plastikman or > iannis xenakis or glenn branca is also more accessible because > they're coming at what they're doing from a starting place of music > rather than a starting place of poetry. Googling around for search > strings like "sound poetry" and "audio poetry" one tends to find a > lot of recordings of readings, a lot of them pretty crummy qua > recordings, which I guess is my complaint over all. I did find some > stuff on PennSound that was kind of along the right track, things > that were using signal processing to create sounds and which had an > adequate level of audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep > coming across sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a > sound blaster 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. > > So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's > sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out > experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily > seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals > produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for > years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i > have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for me > to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me that > the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened in > poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But listening to > what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes me suspect that > there's some unmined territory as far as audiotextual work goes and > maybe I should start taking my own thoughts on the matter a little > more seriously. > > So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art > (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't the > sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the interest, and > in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or terrible > consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily that I might > not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm looking for is > like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that sees the potential > of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live reading or euro > modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant garde jazz/musique > concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to be the bulk of > what's out there. > > Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references to > any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. > > Thanks, > > Jason Quackenbush > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:47:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: CANNOT EXIST #1 is out--submissions are open for #2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The editorial entity is plum(b) thrilled to announce the first issue of CANNOT EXIST featuring 50 pages of staggeringly good writing by Rick Burkhardt Arielle Guy Rob Halpern Roberto Harrison Lisa Jarnot Kent Johnson Laura Sims Rodrigo Toscano Saddle-stapled with hand-stamped card covers, with outside cover featuring mind-bending artwork by Benjamin Grosser. Submissions are open for the second issue. Visit http://cannotexist.blogspot.com for guidelines, ordering information, and such stuff. all the best, Andy G. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 19:18:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: happy birthday alan sondheim In-Reply-To: <47A5E685.6070309@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Happy birthday! Murat 2008/2/3 Gabriel Gudding : > have a great day, alan! > > > > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:56:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Re: masculine "new"??? In-Reply-To: <47A60C5B.2070009@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gabriel, =20 How are you differentiating the "masculine" drive to self-declare avant wit= h the obvious parallel activities of women such as Mina Loy (Feminist Manif= esto, 1914) and Valerie Solanas (Scum Manifesto, 1968)? Are their declarati= ons different? Perhaps more valid? What about women who self-declare avant = or L=3DA=3DN=3DG or whatever? Or is this an assumption/assertion that avant= status necessarily equals male privilege?=20 =20 I don't mean to be quippy here, but I would like you to expand your discuss= ion on the subject. In your list of examples of "masculine" avants: =20 New FormalismLangpo PostmodernPost Avant / AVAnd More Recent and Ephemeral = VariantsFlaff (flarf?)New Brutalism =20 It seems that you are conveniently ignoring scores of women who are not onl= y affiliated with said poetic stances/social relationships, but who are als= o key figures in said. =20 =20 Did I read you completely wrong? =20 PS. Yes, Flarf has an R. No, I am not affiliated. =20 Best, David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot.com > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600> From: gmguddi@ILSTU.EDU> Subject: o= n declaring oneself "new"> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > http://gabri= elgudding.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_0120= 08= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 16:38:42 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacob Edmond Subject: Deep South Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The new issue of Deep South, edited by Cy Mathews, is now online, featuring new poetry, prose poems, short fiction and art by 18 international authors: http://www.otago.ac.nz/deepsouth/ . Dr Jacob Edmond Senior Lecturer Department of English University of Otago PO Box 56, Dunedin 9054, New Zealand office and street address: 1S3, 1st Floor, Arts Building, Albany St, Dunedin 9016, New Zealand phone: +64 3 479 7969; fax: +64 3 479 8558 http://www.otago.ac.nz/english/staff/edmond.html Russian Studies Research Cluster: http://www.otago.ac.nz/humanities/research/clusters/russianstudies/index.html Asia-New Zealand Research Cluster: http://www.otago.ac.nz/humanities/research/clusters/asianz/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 01:31:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: FRIDA WAS RED! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A Frida Kahlo retrospective is coming to the Philadelphia Museum of Art later this month. The mega bookstore chain where I work has of course made certain to have every single book about her and her work displayed front and center. And of course they're selling. This bookstore is located in a neighborhood of millionaires and billionaires called Rittenhouse Square. It's a strange place, especially to someone with white trash roots like me, and yet it's a fascinating STUDY, listening closely to these people, watching them interact in their zoo of affluence. Like today, it's an unseasonable 50 degrees, and these two jewel-encrusted women fresh from the salon exchange little hello kisses. Then the one says, "OH, it's SO WARM I can't wear my new mink coat!" (imagine her saying "coat" drawn out into an elongated whine and you've got it!) The other one says, "OH, I know! I know!" OH, these poor, poor women! Just another day in the filth of the darkest possible side of the human condition where even the weather can hamper a life stocked full of boredom and stupidity! In the past five years Americans in the top five percent income brackets have INCREASED their wealth by an average forty percent. Keep this in mind, always, please, in our time of war. But I LOVE to fuck with these people whenever it's possible in order to continue to enrich my studies! My studies in The Laboratory of the Rich, or whatever it's called, no official "class" title as of yet (yes, I pun badly, give me a break). But Frida has provided a new opportunity! When the wealthy art lovers of Rittenhouse bring their Frida books to the counter I always say enthusiastically, "FRIDA KAHLO IS MY FAVORITE COMMUNIST!" I wish this could be filmed, you really HAVE TO SEE the contempt reveal itself in a pinch beneath the remarkably thin layer of poise that got them to the counter with their vibrantly colored Frida souvenirs. The conversations have been interesting to say the least. Most recently one man laughed and said, "WELL, her politics were misguided, but her art is THANKFULLY separate from her politics!" I flipped quickly through his book to the painting, "Marxism Will Give Health to the Sick," and I said, pointing, "That's Karl Marx over her shoulder, see?" He rolled his eyes, "Okay, just ring me up please!" Isn't that funny? He's buying a book with Karl Marx's portrait in it, but Frida Kahlo's politics were misguided, OH, and separate let's not forget! That's pretty damned funny! And by the way, ARE HER POLITICS SEPARATE FROM HER ART? Even if it's a painting of fruit and birds? Wasn't the artist a whole person? Wasn't she the PERSON she was, with all of her experiences and passion for those who suffer and need, wasn't she this PERSON, always this PERSON, painting, or laughing, fucking, living? I'd like to see what kind of paintings these assholes in their mink coats and Armani suits would paint THAT'S MY POINT! The PERSON who painted these paintings everyone wants to gather around to celebrate was an amalgamation of many finely sharpened splinters of intelligence and emotion and all of these different parts were communing with each other to be the whole one behind the paint brush, at least that's how I see it. And there's no denying FRIDA! WAS! RED! The reactions have been SO SEVERE with my little experiment that I've decided I MUST make a T-shirt for the show at the art museum! A white shirt with big red letters on front and back that read: FRIDA KAHLO MY FAVORITE COMMUNIST YOURS TOO? At the 2003 Oscars, actor Gael Garcia Bernal came to the microphone to introduce the song "Burn it Blue," nominated for an Oscar for the film FRIDA, and he became emotional when stating that if Frida Kahlo were alive she would be against the American war in Iraq. I didn't see the Oscars, but heard about his statement the next day more than once in the context of, "WHAT'S HIS PROBLEM!?" What's his problem? It was one of those moments, when your country is at war, and suffering is a daily, chronic bloody reality, and you REALLY SEE how your fellow citizens are living a life of OPEN denial, with their little twists of collective glib exclamation no less. Bernal's near burst of tears when making his antiwar statement get translated with annoyance the next day and it's a new opportunity to MAYBE NOT UNDERSTAND but maybe GET A BIGGER IMPACT of how confusing war is in everyday life, especially from the perspective of the country doing the aggressing, the country NOT being bombed, the country with a million people NOT killed and able to walk around eating ice cream, chocolate, strawberry, YUMMY! Are we really at war? Are you sure? Some days I'm not sure how to feel about feeling or not feeling about it. And you, you are on my mind too, and maybe I'm on yours? Maybe the threshold of pain is very different from what it has seemed to be? CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 03:03:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: electricks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed electricks Why, Hello Julu! And so good to hear from you! Yes, this is a theme that has occupe ied me for days and days , most of them recent. For example, what were "electrical recreations" and more to the point, what might one say about the relative simplicity of the apparatus used for them?? Metal, the material world, puckers and withdraws, all is spheres and spikes. Ah but conditions or situations, environem ments, material ecologies, the very splay of the real? In such a fashion metal declares itself.Yes, and how you have filled out these many years, lovely Julu! Thus de uring the era of steam-engines and diplex telegraphy - and one must remember that the most of the nineteenth century ran on batteries, not electrical outlets - during this era, electrostatic generators were constructed of nothing more than rods, circular plates, god knows what else...The illustrations of the time for the most part indicated what? Young women, such as ourselves, in touch with metal, standing on stools with glass legs, carefully applying dischargers with rubberized handles, it was as if the real were out of contrl---Or Until, dearest Julu, one mght speak of that sudden discharge, the orgams sm, the sudden exaltation of teh he spirit, for we might have concluded then, that spirit itself were inhabiting the world, a kind of ectoplasm of the metallic. Matter spoke and no one listened.However (as our words and arms entwine), it's as if there were a surplus that couldn't be contained - the experiment of electrocuting the dog for example, or creating the semblance of hydrogen/oxygen explosion. Which surely is why the models were young women , with the demonstrator male, the demonstration of the male, dis/splay. , which is why we are torn together as one, sundered together, across electronic ab barriers, which surely are the remnants of those electrostatics, those "electrical recreations" as we would have them ourselves... --------------------------------= talk =-------------------------------- Hello Nikuko and you are how? I have been very busy, reading about the electrical apparatus, electrostatics and dynamic electricity, from the late eighteenth century, perhaps early to mid-ninteenth century. To be sure, what a mix of worlds here, electrical theatrics, young men leading young women into circular frenzy, controlled, I do forget how beautiful you are, your wet skin, tissue against mine, minds blurred, the discharges, phenomena Dionysian, the apparatus Apollonian - cleansed, purified, perfected, holding charge back -I remembver your orgasms, your body against mine, matter speaking and no one listening for that matter: the audibility of the world was all bound up in the visible, even the electrostatic parlor tricks resulted in sounds and sights, the ontology of what was taken for granted as real. This isn't science, this is the ikonic; we might as well leave the indexical far behind. There are no pointers, no measurements, with all of these phenomena, just phenomena themselves, as if the world were talking, but talking mutely, drenched in our passion, against our skins and minds.Which perhaps the young women chose to ignore; I'd imagine they'd choose to ignore it, and which is why yes, as we would have them, and have us, and have at them and ourselves... illustrations: http://www.alansondheim.org/elec1.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/elec2.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/broken.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 05:19:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i didn't get the impression, david, that jason was saying signal/noise ratio was the be all and end all. one of the things he asked was whether there were poets out there taking recorded sound seriously as artistic media. of course it isn't simply about signal/noise ratio in the simple sense of that term. and jason seems quite aware of that. when i produced a literary radio show for six years, i started out recording poets and prose writers reading their work. then got interested in the sound poets and that history. and then stuff like burroughs's cutups. and more or less at the same time came across the work of the 'audio writers'. these writers were/are taking recorded sound seriously as artistic media. whitehead's background is in theory and theatre. he's a thinker. and a very diverse voice. and an imaginative producer. and the best writer on audio i've encountered. douglas kahn is another interesting thinker/writer/producer. same with jacki apple. and susan stone. these folks are, fundamentally, doing sound poetry. intensely engaged with voice and language. but they're also not retarded about audio technology. quite the contrary. they're as good as any audio producer in the studio. and that's not a sin of fetishization of technology, necessarily, david. that's just called being able to write to the medium. the voice is wider than the voice. the human voice is extended through technology. in many ways. most fundamentally, the recording allows the voice to carry across space and time in a way that it does not normally. it's disembodied. it's invisible. the studio extends it in other ways. the cut is one of the main phenomena of the studio. the wound. when you cut tape the future leaks out. said burroughs. the cut has many valences, many energies. whitehead writes brilliantly about the cut. and a great deal of his work explores the cut in a profoundly human way. display wounds. the pleasure principle. dead letters. escalated ziggurat inhalation. these are some of his titles. his work is all the more human for its cuts. the attitude (not saying you think this way) that studio-produced work is inauthentic is grade 1 in audio mentality. i came across, for instance, the attitude that live radio is better than studio produced radio, is more authentic and human than studio-produced radio. yet, listening to the audio writers, it was clear to me that this work was simply deeper and, oddly, more poetical, more human, in a certain sense, than most of the live radio or simple recordings of poets reading or performing or whatever. more engaging. deeper as inscription. i think it's this sort of thing jason's looking for. not simply a less scratchy surface. ja ps: have added to http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky2 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 11:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen McCaffery Subject: Steve Benson Performance In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed University at Buffalo Poetics Plus Presents. Steve Benson at the Cinema, Hallwall=92s, 341 Delaware Avenue, Buffalo. =20= Feb 5 at 7pm Steve Benson has large groups of works in written form accessible in =20 Blue Book (The Figures/Roof, 1998) and Open Clothes (Atelos, 2005). =20 Other talks and performances, including "Return" and a talk on =20 "Careers in the Arts" and a collaboration with Jackson Mac Low, are =20 available in sound files on-line. the ball, a recent text indicative =20= of Benson's approach to writing as performance, can be accessed at =20 ubu.web. The Grand Piano, a ten-volume collective experiment in =20 autobiography by Benson and nine other writers, concerning their =20 experiences of development with Language poetry in the San Francisco =20 Bay area in the later 1970s, is currently appearing serially from =20 Mode A in Detroit. For the past ten years, Benson has lived in =20 Downeast Maine. On Feb 4, 2008, at 12:03 AM, POETICS automatic digest system wrote: > There are 16 messages totalling 1229 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. spirit > 2. Jesse Glass Reading At The University of Louisiana, Lafayette, =20= > Feb. 7th > 3. On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry (4) > 4. Ahadada in Memphis, Tennessee, Feb. 11th, 12th, 13th > 5. Buffalo Poetry Event Feb 17 > 6. Messay (finished on my birthday, ah well) > 7. happy birthday alan sondheim (3) > 8. Harmurenger to the Eleusine Choroarcanax > 9. on declaring oneself "new" > 10. Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute > 11. CANNOT EXIST #1 is out--submissions are open for #2 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 21:47:23 -0500 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: spirit > > spirit > > > spirit lurid speaks lured through me > lured me sprite exalt breath pinned-down > sprout more murmured light begone me > up foregrounding wine-dark sea > and red-dark sea through cells her gown > jeweled inside and beside me dim sounded > surge upwound again and urgent ecstasy > > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju01.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju02.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju03.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju04.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju05.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju06.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju07.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju08.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju09.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/conju10.jpg > > and violent ecstasy > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:18:33 +0000 > From: Jesse Glass > Subject: Jesse Glass Reading At The University of Louisiana, =20 > Lafayette, Feb. 7th > > Time: 7 p.m. > Place: Rm. 315 in Griffin Hall on the campus of The University > of Louisiana at Lafayette. (Griffin is located on the the corner of =20= > Rex > and > Lewis in Lafayette.) > > For More information: skip@louisiana.edu or 337-482-5491. > > Price of admission: Fresh John the Conqueror Root. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 00:16:56 -0800 > From: Jason Quackenbush > Subject: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry > > So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art > archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the > experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more interesting > than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an awful lot going > on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really caught up to the > technological and aesthetic achievements of various electronic music > types. Moreover, along with being more advanced and more challenging > than a lot of the sound poetry i'm listening to on here, i tend to > think that someone like for example the aphex twin or plastikman or > iannis xenakis or glenn branca is also more accessible because > they're coming at what they're doing from a starting place of music > rather than a starting place of poetry. Googling around for search > strings like "sound poetry" and "audio poetry" one tends to find a > lot of recordings of readings, a lot of them pretty crummy qua > recordings, which I guess is my complaint over all. I did find some > stuff on PennSound that was kind of along the right track, things > that were using signal processing to create sounds and which had an > adequate level of audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep > coming across sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a > sound blaster 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. > > So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's > sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out > experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily > seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals > produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for > years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i > have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for me > to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me that > the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened in > poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But listening to > what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes me suspect that > there's some unmined territory as far as audiotextual work goes and > maybe I should start taking my own thoughts on the matter a little > more seriously. > > So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art > (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't the > sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the interest, and > in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or terrible > consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily that I might > not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm looking for is > like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that sees the potential > of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live reading or euro > modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant garde jazz/musique > concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to be the bulk of > what's out there. > > Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references to > any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. > > Thanks, > > Jason Quackenbush > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:28:30 +0000 > From: Jesse Glass > Subject: Ahadada in Memphis, Tennessee, Feb. 11th, 12th, 13th > > If poetry is happening in Memphis on those days, I'd like to know =20 > about > the venues and would be happy to participate (if only to add my > applause) before heading back to Hikaru Genji-Land. Please back-=20 > channel > Jesse Glass--who is not, contrary to rumor--Evis' love child by Joey > Heatherton. > > Sincerely, > > The Great Etc. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 00:38:44 -0500 > From: andrea strudensky > Subject: Buffalo Poetry Event Feb 17 > > Please join us down at the > Love Factory 2008 > > Date : February 17th (Sunday) > Place: Rustbelt Books > 202 Allen Street > Time : Event begins at 4pm > > 4pm > Theater Fig=FCren > * > Courtney Pfahl 98' > > (short break) > > 5pm > James Currie > =93I will not, and neither will music.=94 > > * Dinner & drinks (provided), general frivolity (you=92re on your own) > > 7pm > Oak Orchard Swamp > =93Not really a swamp=94 > > (short break) > > 8 pm > Ric Royer > =93Instructions for behavior at the end of the known world.=94 > * > Shane and the Lonelies > =93total bullshit=94 > > > (Thank you to Steve McCaffery and Rustbelt Books for making this =20 > event possible) > > http://www.music.buffalo.edu/faculty/currie/index.shtml > http://www.ricroyer.com/Welcome.html > http://www.myspace.com/oakorchardswamp > http://costapuppets.com/ > http://www.myspace.com/shaneandthelonelies > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:28:21 -0500 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: Messay (finished on my birthday, ah well) > > (really apologies for sending so much material out recently. i've =20 > been working > furiously on 'emanent' materia and wanted to 'capture' what's close =20= > to a book > as it comes. right or wrong, there are implications for poetics, =20 > phenomenology, > etc., i think, or would like to think. anyway, here is the most =20 > confused essay > of all. after this, back to image/sound, both of which are easier =20 > for me, > shape-riding into oblivion.) > > > Messay: The Mess of the True World > > > This text is culled from an outline of current work prepared for my =20= > re- search > group at West Virginia University (Virtual Environments Laboratory, =20= > Center for > Literary Computing), Morgantown, WV. Questions dealing with =20 > substantive content > were taken in the order they appeared, and embedded in the =20 > following m/essay. > Topics again center around issues of the 'true world,' emanents, =20 > medical and > other modeling, avatars, organisms, know- ledge and its management. =20= > The > relative disorderliness reflects the disord- erliness of the world, =20= > or so I > hope to believe - not an inherent defect in messay style. > > > what does it mean to be in-carnated within the real/virtual/ > true world? > > Carnated/carnal/knowledge - We could begin by introducing the true =20 > world, the > world of mind in relation to ontological/epistemological shifting. =20 > The true > world is primordial, in other words backgrounding. > > ..."however, we use the word [_materialism_] in its dictionary =20 > definition of > _embodiment,_ in contract to _mind._ Thus, virtual reality, as dis- =20= > cussed > within the art literature [...] is materialist, regardless of =20 > whether this > experience is _real_ or _illusory._ Mental constructs, on the other =20= > hand, are > nonsensory and so have no material existence." Paul Fish=3D wick, An =20= > Introduction > to Aesthetic Computing, in Fishwick, ed., Aesthetic Computing, MIT, =20= > 2006. In > this sense, the true world is materialist; how- ever I would argue =20 > that mental > constructs cohere with the sensory, that a fundamental entanglement =20= > exists. For > example, love or hate create sensed bodily transformations, =20 > mathematical > thought creates the sensation of per- ceived 'symbol-clouds,' and =20 > so forth. > > > what are the edge-phenomena/plastic and static limits of the body? > > The limits of my body within the true world are the limits of my =20 > world; here I > include ontological shifts such as mathesis, semiosis, emotions and =20= > the like. > Given the limited bandwidth of receptors of all sorts, and the =20 > limitations of > mind (for example, in thinking through the appearance of the eighth =20= > dimension, > calculating, speaking non-native languages, etc.), thought and the =20 > true world > are based on extrapolation - the _gestural_ - as fundamental being. =20= > (See Tran > Duc Thao on the origins of language.) The gestural follows quantum > non-distributive logics (see the early experi- ments by Land on =20 > color vision), > not Aristotelian distributive logics; this being-in-the-world is =20 > partial > reception of part-objects transformed into inherency through =20 > gesture. All > organisms have this in common. > > The _plastic_ limits of the body are the limits of body-inherency, =20 > whether > 'real' or 'virtual' or other category - the limits of the image =20 > carried by the > jectivity (introjection and projection) braid. The _static_ limits =20 > may be > considered formal-measurable limits, whether in one or another space. > > > of the geopolitical body? of the political-economic body? > > As soon as one brings domain-extrapolation of the body into play =20 > (i.e. sexual > body, material body, imaginary body, natural body, and so forth), =20 > cultural > nexus is paramount, and the body itself moves within theory as =20 > phenomenological > token or punctum. > > And as soon as one brings variegated ontologies and epistemologies =20 > into play, > analysis becomes a mush/mess/mass or miss. Terms slide against =20 > terms, carrying > enormous overdetermined histories with them - but these are the =20 > only histories > there are. > > > what are the signifiers of bodily arousal/violence/meditation? > how are these constituted within the true world? > > Herewith bee a liste of signes, or some such. But where is the =20 > arousal, > violence, meditation, if not brainward, wearing the exposure, =20 > softening, > hardening, quiescence of the body which simultaneously is =20 > foregrounded and > absenting. In terms of emanents, the signs are symbolic; one =20 > calculates, > applies them. In term of organism, the signs are ikonic, upwelling. =20= > The brain > manages none of this; the brain manages, is managed - everything =20 > becomes a mess > as inquiry tangles uselessly. It's this uselessness, this nexus, =20 > that is of > interest - an analytical failure in the close-rubbed maw of the world. > > > readings: what does it mean to read the real body? the virtual body? > > One might begin by considering language as fundamentally ikonic, =20 > that within > the preconscious ('repository' of syntactics, short-term memory - =20 > another > metaphor) language is clothed, associated with the true world. =20 > Language then is > structured like the unconscious, and the unconscious does not =20 > necessarily splay > the real. Bodies, organic and emanent (and 'organic' references the =20= > machinic > phylum as well), inhere to mind, minding, tending, a posteriori =20 > interpretation > and hermeneutics. Reading the body is embody- ing, is against the =20 > background of > incarnation. Sheave-skins need not react or appear to sense as =20 > organic skins; > the feedback is often visual or aural, not proprioceptive. Within =20 > the jectivity > braid, this is an epistem- ological issue, not one of fundamental =20 > locus. On the > other hand (real or virtual), one can abandon the emanent; =20 > abandoning the > organic is deadly. Proceed backwards from this, from the =20 > irretrievable, > intolerable, finality of death, and reading bodies, and bodily =20 > risk, become > wildly disparate. Nevertheless both inhabit the true world, mind =20 > inhabits both, > albeit often in qualitatively different manners, depending on =20 > ontology. > > > what are the ontologies and epistemologies involved here? > ontological status of the so-called virtual - > Schroedinger's cat paradox and collapse of the wave function as =20 > model > for simultaneous analogic/digital readings - > seeing through microscopy (tunnel, scanning, optical, etc.): > are ontology and epistemology equivalent at the limit? > (are analogic and digital equivalent at a parallel limit?) > > What difference does it make? Begin with the mess, with the =20 > corrupted reading > of whatever consciousness has placed there, on the page, the rock, =20 > the emanent > body, the organic body. The last carries ikonic signs, simultaneously > indexical, pointing out the mute history of the being. If there =20 > were only > readers of everything! If only the book of nature existed! The =20 > Ladder! Great > Chain of Being! > > Ontologies occur in local domains, rub raw against each other, =20 > problema- tize > each other. Who decided this one or that one as primordial? What's =20 > fundamental > is the mixed mess, the braid. At least as far as we're con- cerned, =20= > the braid. > > > internals and externals, static/dynamic. remnants of the visible > human project, gendering of the visual/internal > > Human skin under the microtome, sheave-skin burrowed into by camera =20= > position. > Here is the necessity of Madhyamika, co-dependent origination, depend > co-origination, braided mind, image, imaginary, entity, real and =20 > virtual > within, inhering to the true world. Striated, variegated trans- =20 > formations > characterize life; the Visible Human Project transforms organism =20 > into emanent, > habitus into data-base. > > > comfort, dis/comfort, ease, dis/ease, hysteria and abjection/fluid- > ity (laycock's 1840 essay on hysteria, kristeva, chasseguet-smirgel) > > Clearly the abject lies within the primordial, the braid is braid of > dissolution, corruption, decay; definitions flux in relation to the =20= > constricted > passing of time. Organisms flood themselves, emanents decay with their > corporations, software updating, diminishing dreamtimes as elders =20 > die off. > Hysteria is convulsion, but also spew, contrary and wayward, the =20 > refusal of the > body, just as death is such a refusal and catatonia. Do others =20 > refuse the body? > Use it? Reuse it? Are sheave-skins exchanged? Does political =20 > economy depend on > aegis? > > > dis/ease, hysteria, and so forth of emanents > > Dis/ease, etc. may be modeled; turning the emanent towards =20 > abjection is > necessarily a conscious decision. The hysteria of emanents is the =20 > hys- teria of > the steering mind. Proliferation of emanents, duplications and =20 > other hacks, may > be considered a form of hysteria. But hysteria is on the surface; =20 > emanents > which are autonomous or semi-autonomous agents may exist the full =20 > range of > symptoms, generated from within, without external steering. > > > medical model and technology > > A medical model implies internal flows, striations, identities, =20 > vulner- > abilities, immunological defenses, maintenance and so forth. =20 > Emphasis is on the > cohering of parts, membranes and molecular channels. Organism runs =20 > from within; > emanent runs from without. An emanent may be defined as _an image =20 > or apparition > whose body and mind are elsewhere,_ an entity that exists in =20 > relation to the > jectivity braid, and has apparent, but not genidentical, identity. =20 > Of course > the organic body itself is genidentical only to a limited extent. > > One might say then that both ontologically and epistemologically, =20 > _an emanent > exists within data-bases or other entities spatio-temporally =20 > distant from the > visual or other residue._ What we see is surface, but surface from =20 > both within > and without. _The dissection of an emanent image is the result of =20 > camera > angle._ > > > psychoanalytics and technology, psychoanalytics of emanents > > The psychoanalytics of emanents are two-fold: the psychoanalytics =20 > of mind > steering, and the internal psychoanalytics of the machinic phylum. Or > three-fold if the former is also embedded within/embedding the psycho- > analytics of organically-embodied mind. I would begin with Freud's > metapsychology, since it's illusory clarity allows the possibility of > equivalence, attribute classes, and the like. I would attach this =20 > model to one > of drives and instincts dealing at least in part with homeostatic =20 > maintenance > (which I have covered elsewhere). > > > analogic and worn emanent boundaries > > How does the emanent wear? How does it wear the analog? For an =20 > emanent to > _wear,_ an ontological shift must be crossed, the wear occurring in =20= > hard or > flash drive, in the material world of atoms and quantum probabilities. > > > edge / boundary phenomena - physics and psychophysics of the game-=20= > world > edge in second life > > Psychophysical remapping of (motion, behavior) steering phenomena. =20 > What else to > say here? Camera views must be independent of emanents; they move =20 > beyond, > behind, below the sheave-skins, constructing visual feedback of =20 > morphed > transformations. For a moment nothing is autonomic, everything is =20 > relearned. > But there are asymptotic behaviors and motions at the edge of every =20= > game-world, > behaviors simultaneously permitting approach and refus- ing escape. =20= > The > game-world edges harbor autisms, palsies, deconstructions - =20 > chatterings which > take on the guise of everyday life, just as everyday life elsewhere =20= > within the > game-world might well take on these chatterings as style or news =20 > from afar. > > > phenomena of the sheave-skin and sheave-skin internals > > Sheave-skin externals read as internals: anatomical mappings within =20= > Poser. > First that the visual mappings are just that, indexicals, residue, =20 > from > codings, reports from another frontier, that of the software processes > themselves. Second, I have pointed out elsewhere that sheave-skin and > environment, visuals, all exist within the same ontological =20 > habitus; the split > is between this habitus and deeper discrete or digital processes. =20 > The split is > absolute ontologically, constructed epistemologically. If there is =20 > an Absolute > in sheave-skin or game-theory or game-world, it's this ontological =20 > split which > even a representation of software processes cannot penetrate: from > electron-movement and process configuration/deploy- ment to > visual/aural/tactile/etc. appearance - the gap is permanent, =20 > imminent, and > therefore uncanny. > > > phenomena of medical models in relation to edge/boundaries > > The medical model is for learning, for analogy of surface to =20 > surface. The > medical model requires a (human) viewer. Any dissection into the =20 > substance of > an organic body results in exposed and constructed surfaces; =20 > interiors always > lie elsewhere, revealed by X-ray, MRI, and so forth. > > > edge phenomena in literature, codework, mathesis of the text > > In a sense all writing is edge, phenomena of the edge; writing =20 > exists as > surface, sheave-skin, emanent. Inscription coats the orgasm of things, > constructs both things and orgasm, wryting into the body of the =20 > true world > helter-skelter. Codework in this regard is mute, ikonic; code and =20 > text scrape > one another, none dominant, both structured and structuring. > > > generalization of edge phenomena into the dialectic between tacit > knowledge (polyani) and error (winograd/flores) > > At the edge, the world is manifest between lived experience and =20 > corrup- tion, > between trial and error, between inhering/cohering and =20 > construction, between > dwelling and building. into the forest of error, where does the =20 > body go? From > the edge, one can look back or down, into the windows of the =20 > comfortable houses > across the street - if one still has the capability of sight. Is =20 > the edge > sharp? Does the world cut? Is the edge equivalent to death, both =20 > blank, beyond, > both miasma of theory and practice? Think else- wise of the =20 > possibilities of > worlds of closed manifolds or recursions, one repeatedly returning, to > something in the vastness of space or mind. and then think, what a =20 > construct, > what comfort, and to what regard, what proof or results, what Signs? > > > what constitutes worlds? constructing? > world of the text, inhabitation/dwelling/building (heidegger, > dufrenne) > > It's too simple to insist on worlds cohering, or that within their =20 > do- main > (ontological, epistemological), there is closure. One might say =20 > that, for all > intents and purposes, worlds are nearly closed, that blurred boun- =20 > daries are > distanced, rarely in evidence. The construction of worlds is no =20 > more or less > problematic than the construction of anything at all. A world is =20 > characterized > by inhabitation; a world is a homing. > > The world of the text forgets its coding, its double-coding. =20 > Without that > forgetting, erasure, the text is anomalous, problematic, non-=20 > cohering. The > willing suspension of disbelief begins within the absence of will; =20 > will returns > when the text ends or fails. > > > what constitutes the true world? worlding? > 'true world' in which lines/angles are 'trued' (affine geometry), > 'true world' in the sense of 'trued' phenomenologies within which > virtual, real, and ikonic are blurred and interpenetrating, somewhat > equivalent, and within which traditional epistemologies of symbol/ > sign/signifier/signified/index/ikon etc. break down (kalachakra > tantra, jeffrey hopkins) > > 'Worlding' references ongoing inhabiting and making of the (true) =20 > world, > inhabiting memory, making and dwelling in memory, the truing of the =20= > world. All > worlds are not true worlds, all true worlds are worlding. ikonic =20 > signs inhere > within the true world, reading bodies (organisms, emanents, approp- =20= > riated, > misappropriated) are ikonic, true world, the body stands for =20 > everything and > nothing; ikonic, the body stands in for the body. > > > 'reading' underlying (substructural, configuration files, guides) > organization of mocap/scan through surface phenomena > (and the relationship of this reading to waddington's epigenetic > landscapes) > > Oh, one has to read the cinema I produce, held taut through diagram =20= > and > substructure. Reading here involves decoding, retaining the =20 > decoding against > the memory or remembrance of absent code. There are epigenetic =20 > landscapes of > decoding, tendencies and tending of the true world sending the =20 > reader one or > another wayward or contrary way. Landscapes lead toward coagulation of > landscapes, tethered desire of inhabiting an other. We can't let go of > ourselves, even to read; we huddle, in order to write. > > > who is world? communality, consensuality? > the problem of other minds and the problem of consensual other minds > (group hallucinations, vijnanavada, dwarf sightings, ufos, etc.) > > We can't answer this. We can't answer this without further future =20 > know- ledge > in terms of mind. We have experienced, at least once, the connect- =20 > edness of > mind, but to generalize from this is problematic. I have no doubt =20 > of minding > the world, minding the world of minds. And that one time may well =20 > have been > untoward coincidence. Certainly "who is world?" is a proper =20 > question to ask, > emanent and organism alike entailed. And certainly we are all =20 > emanents, and > certainly we receive differently from different skins, tissue-skins, > sheave-skins, molecular-membrane-skins, one-pixel- thick-skins, =20 > true world of > inhering/cohering skins. It is not communality or consensuality =20 > that beg > definition, but their absence: what cause the illusion of =20 > individuation, the > lived discrete? > > > At this point, defuge sets in, the intolerable directing of the messay > increasingly turns towards entanglement; nothing is answered or =20 > accounted > (nothing is accountable). What to do but abandon the true world to =20 > a certain > trembling at the edge - an edge which increasingly moves towards an =20= > unknown > center (the real edge where damage begins). And what to do but =20 > abandon this > attempt at another accretionary formation or inscription, living in =20= > the world > as-if there were a certain human, if not organic, order. As-if is =20 > the pleasure > of our senses and disfigurement of slaughter, as if these were =20 > speakable > between the axle and the rim (the spokes, too, have their gaps). =20 > Let it go. Do > let it go. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:26:41 -0800 > From: Jim Andrews > Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry > > hi jason, > > to me, the most interesting audio artist with an intense engagement =20= > with > language is gregory whitehead. i was producing a literary radio =20 > show when i > first heard his work around 1985. not only does he do amazing audio =20= > work, > but writes about it extrordinarily well. > > http://gregorywhitehead.com > http://ubu.com/sound/whitehead.html > > i first heard his work on a Telus cassette. It also featured work =20 > by Susan > Stone and Jay Allison. I delved into it, contacted Whitehead, and =20 > discovered > a scene of 'audio writing'. It included artists such as Helen =20 > Thorington, > who now produces http://turbulence.org . She was producing a =20 > series, at the > time, called New American Radio ( http://somewhere.org ). She was > commissioning artists to produce audio art that was aired on NPR and > elsewhere. And she was editing columns on audio art in EAR mag from =20= > NY. > > Other artists involved in it were Jacki Apple, Douglas Kahn, Pamela =20= > Z, and > many others ( http://somewhere.org/NAR/links/links.htm ). These are =20= > not all > writers, per se. The backgrounds range around quite a bit. But =20 > that's one of > the cool things not only about radio art and the art of recorded =20 > sound, but > also, say, the art of the net. The New American Radio crew was my =20 > first > taste of an art practiced by people from many arts, each of whom =20 > brought > something special to the art of radio/recorded sound. > > The main thing is that they were taking recorded sound and radio =20 > seriously > (as well as live radio) as artistic media. I think that's the =20 > crucial thing. > > One of the main precursors of the 'audio writers' of the eighties was > William S. Burroughs and his experiments with audio cutups. But, =20 > also, the > early sound poets, while they weren't doing anything much =20 > concerning the > materiality of tape and so on, made some very interesting recording. > > But Whitehead, oh, you have to listen to Whitehead. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:46:43 -0600 > From: sue walker > Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry > > Dear Jason, > > I am very interested in sound poetry. It seems to me a direction > that could add vitality and life to poetry particularly in the > classroom. I wonder how sound poetry can be taught in an ordinary > classroom with limited technology resources. I'm just a poet, but my > son is an audio engineer working on an master's in music / business > at NYU. Growing up, I used to play the piano and clarinet -- but > that has dropped by the sayside during the years. I teach at the > University of South Alabama in Mobile -- so we're too isolated from > things that are happening in cities like New York and San Francisco. > Still we have happenings like Mardi Gras (this Tuesday) and it seems > to me that cries and revelry ought to have some cultural play in the > making of poetry. I would like at least to know a lot more than I do > which is next to nothing but wanting. > > Sincerely, > > Sue Walker > > On Feb 3, 2008, at 2:16 AM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art >> archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the >> experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more >> interesting than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an >> awful lot going on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really >> caught up to the technological and aesthetic achievements of >> various electronic music types. Moreover, along with being more >> advanced and more challenging than a lot of the sound poetry i'm >> listening to on here, i tend to think that someone like for example >> the aphex twin or plastikman or iannis xenakis or glenn branca is >> also more accessible because they're coming at what they're doing >> from a starting place of music rather than a starting place of >> poetry. Googling around for search strings like "sound poetry" and >> "audio poetry" one tends to find a lot of recordings of readings, a >> lot of them pretty crummy qua recordings, which I guess is my >> complaint over all. I did find some stuff on PennSound that was >> kind of along the right track, things that were using signal >> processing to create sounds and which had an adequate level of >> audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep coming across >> sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a sound blaster >> 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. >> >> So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's >> sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out >> experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily >> seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals >> produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for >> years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i >> have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for >> me to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me >> that the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened >> in poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But >> listening to what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes >> me suspect that there's some unmined territory as far as >> audiotextual work goes and maybe I should start taking my own >> thoughts on the matter a little more seriously. >> >> So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art >> (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't >> the sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the >> interest, and in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or >> terrible consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily >> that I might not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm >> looking for is like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that >> sees the potential of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live >> reading or euro modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant >> garde jazz/musique concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to >> be the bulk of what's out there. >> >> Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references >> to any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Quackenbush > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:06:29 -0600 > From: Gabriel Gudding > Subject: happy birthday alan sondheim > > have a great day, alan! > > > > --=20 > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:39:27 -0800 > From: lanny quarles > Subject: Harmurenger to the Eleusine Choroarcanax > > THE PLATES > http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/images/platpg/ > > Tulip Two-ply, pleased, > Upon a plea to deploy, gnipped at gbits. > Mapping the Pli, and REM-App.ing the Pli > Appalled alloys alloyed Apollo's leas (think past N, or thru), > > Insecting its various exjective volumetries, the drawing- > force at one threemove from its absploitative unteger > vecrying petrect perfraction, deconsieves. An din that murmeant's > ohm, a decimallific solubelicosity ensews, close openings > interafterm a mimittent rufulousnous in their rifted encloying > mussage. Dysappyramis ennurned upon velvet vertuous stones > of triaxonial phanerobaronage, barnaculed wavelutes > encingulofted towards the aerovial glitaschinus of gleeting > harmuonium armurena. > > ousiareon aei > aei estin o(n)ion > estinousia > > est in naoisia > specific connection: NOISE, NAUSEA, NAOS (CAUSE, COUSIN, COSINE, =20 > CHAOS) > > 'nocte' ~ itkon ( beauty as substance, fraud, and absolute)[shun] > [that implicit "Is the belief of God, the belief in beauty?" or =20 > adjust the opposite?] > > iconic (ich on ich, chi on chi) eye on eye [chyle on chyle]~ stone =20 > on stone > > Sign-Hyle, Senile, Syn Isle, A! delphic Hearthlightlore... > > THE PLATES > http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/images/platpg/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600 > From: Gabriel Gudding > Subject: on declaring oneself "new" > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:55:51 -0600 > From: Daniel Godston > Subject: Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute > > Poetry Foundation Launches Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute > > CHICAGO =97The Poetry Foundation is pleased to announce the launch of =20= > the > Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute, a new initiative designed to =20 > address issues > of importance to poetry by bringing together leading advocates and > practitioners of the art form=97poets, scholars, critics, translators, > publishers, arts administrators=97and thinkers from all areas of arts =20= > and > culture. > > When fully established, the Poetry Institute will: > > =95 Stimulate fresh ideas by bringing together creative thinking = and > practical realities, recognizing that a lively presence for poetry =20 > in our > culture depends on both > =95 Conduct research on issues, needs, and opportunities in the =20= > poetry > community > =95 Design action-oriented programs and partnerships to benefit =20= > poetry > > > For its inaugural events the Poetry Foundation is collaborating =20 > with the > Aspen Institute, an organization with a broad interdisciplinary =20 > reach and an > established expertise in convening diverse groups of people. =20 > Together with > the Institute=92s Harman-Eisner Program in the Arts, the Poetry =20 > Foundation is > surveying leaders in the poetry community to determine the most =20 > pressing > needs of the art form. > > =93The Foundation is eager to hear the recommendations and priorities = of > poets, and those involved in publishing and distributing poetry, =20 > for how we > as a community can work together to the benefit of poetry,=94 said =20 > John Barr, > president of the Poetry Foundation. =93The results of the query will =20= > help > frame the Institute=92s initial program.=94 > > Based on information received from the first phase of inquiry, the =20 > Harriet > Monroe Poetry Institute will commission and conduct research =20 > throughout > 2008. At a conference to be held in Aspen in the spring of 2009, =20 > invited > participants will discuss the research, debate findings, and =20 > recommend steps > to address the identified needs of the art form. Findings from the > conference will shape the Institute=92s subsequent activities, = including > research, programs, and collaborations. Ultimately the Poetry =20 > Foundation > expects to implement programs based on these recommendations. > > The Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute, which will operate as an ongoing > program of the Poetry Foundation, is located at the Foundation =20 > offices in > Chicago. > > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/foundation/release_012908.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:13:13 -1000 > From: Gabrielle Welford > Subject: Re: happy birthday alan sondheim > > yes, indeed. don't apologize for all the poetry. it gets better and > better. blessings, g > > On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >> have a great day, alan! >> >> >> >> -- >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ >> > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 14:35:56 -0800 > From: David Chirot > Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry > > Dear Jason-- > i think perhaps by imposing an already pre-formed, idealized =20 > standard of > aesthetic and technical values taken from other areas than Sound =20 > Poetry you > are not, of course, finding, much of what is Sound Poetry. And if one > cannot recognize the elements of an art form which have been developed > through a hundred years nearly of its "modern history" , then how =20 > is one t=3D > o > recognize them even when these appear in a Hi Fi, "state of the art" > example? > > As a charactrer in a story of mine puts it: > > "Above all the practice of literature requires a rigorous reading =20 > of those > texts which present themselves continuously as already written, =20 > yet are > not recognized as such, in favor of those only which one is =20 > indoctrinated =3D > to > know as the readable by those who write them." > > And in the NY Times today, in an article on Jasper Johns, one =20 > finds this, > with quotes from Johns: > > 'his interpretation of flags and targets, numbers and letters =3D97 =20= > things, a=3D > s > he has often said, "the mind already knows," "things that were seen =20= > and not > looked at, not examined"' > So it is with Sound Poetry, one listens anc creates in examining those > things which have been heard, but not listened to. > > What is the sound, for example, Walt Whitman launches when he =20 > writes "My > voices goes after/What my eyes can't reach"? > > The voice trying to reach by sounds things "beyond reach"--"of the =20 > eyes"--i=3D > n > a sense the first sounds a human makes at birth, before the eyes =20 > can clearl=3D > y > see--are the origins of Sound Poetry--as they are of Henri Chopin's =20= > "Cris" > in their transits through his manipulations of his vocalizations =20 > with the > use of magnetic tape and other recording machines. > > Since the 1950's there has been a vast amount of work done with =20 > using the > tape recording of the voice as a way of expanding the ranges of the =20= > voice's > sounds, mixing vocalizations, etc. etc-- > > A lot of the great innovative work done with the use of recording =20 > machines > in the 1950's and 1960's--of course may not sound so "Hi Fi" by =20 > today's > terms--but if one studies what is actually being done with the =20 > human voice, > the ways the structuring of pieces are created through the use of the > lenghtening of phrases, manipulations of volume, pitch, the =20 > juxtapositions > of human vocal sounds in ways never before heard, by cutting them up, > splicing, repeating, rhythmically accelerating or blurring, or =20 > driving howl=3D > s > into a stratospheric chaos of noise, one finds an immsense amount of > material and exmaples still to work with. In these works, the ways =20 > in which > the sound of the human voice is sculpted spatially and composed =20 > with in > terms of time--i think a lot of the work is still very =20 > extraordinary, and > the thinking involved in it, the ideas, is is "advanced" in many =20 > ways as > thinking which is still going on with these issues. > > > Henri Chopin, who was written of recently as he had passed away, =20 > was one of > the great pioneers in this area. The Lettristes worked with some =20 > recorded > experimental Sound Poetry, Bob Cobbing did many experiments with tape > recordings--there are many groups from Sweden, England, Canada, Latin > America, Europe who worked along these lines and do to this day. > > The use of the voice itself, in Sound Poetry, is not limited in the =20= > way it > is by "poetry," in that there is no need for "words;" sound as in the > literal meaning of Zaum, is "Beyond Reason/Rationality" and =20 > exploring other > dimensions of expressions not "anchored" by "texts." The =20 > connection with > Visual Poetry is in the use of notations which do not "read" like =20 > any form > of standardized text or notation. In the case of Bob Cobbing, =20 > there is no > longer even a "score" or "notation" used at alll--anything--a rock--=20= > a side > walk crack--may be used as a visual form with which to respond. We =20 > used to > use also the moving shadows of trees' leaves as they moved among =20 > the side > walk cracks--via a visual finding, the ear and voice become ever more > "attuned" so to speak to the immediate environment. Sound Poetry =20 > is also a > way of learning to listen with differing attentions, hearing what =20 > is the > unheard in plain sound so to speak. > > I think perhaps your difficulty in looking for Sound Poetry is you are > looking for what it is not--music, technological "cleanliness," > "technological and aesthetic achievements of electronic music," =20 > standardize=3D > d > ideas of "poetry" as something limited to the page and defined by =20 > sets of > rules or "anti-rules." > > There is sound poetry that is very wel recorded, edited and the =20 > like, and > that which is very simple, low fi, low tech, basically a document =20 > of the > performance, In which the sounds of the voice with all their =20 > grains, dirt, > rasps, the air in the room, the haze of smoke or smog or of any =20 > moment is > present. Sound poetry can be done and has been as a kind of =20 > Laboratory > work--and as Art Brut--as everything from Artaudian shrieks and howls, > Cobbings' hisses, Chopin's "Cris," the explosive demolitions of =20 > Jaap Blonk, > the Terror Police States expressed by Clemente Padin's work--to =20 > uses of > silence and near silence, murmurings, whispers, to the blues-=20 > influenced > simultaneously dual-vocalized sound poetry of Paul Dutton. (This =20 > is to nam=3D > e > just a few of the great many figures who span the decades beginning =20= > in the > early 1950's to present.) > > Sound Poetry--in a sense--has it appears here/hear a hidden in plain > sight/sound quality to it, in that in being sought after, it is =20 > being done > so by all the means of which it is not itself made in the senses =20 > defined as > requiring a "sound art" of "sound poetry." (I.E. "having a sound =20 > foundatio=3D > n > technically, aesthetically, by the standards of other art forms.") > > Sound Poetry is a challenge to the conventional ideas of poetry and =20= > its > dependence on words, texts, and on music, with its scores and =20 > normative > forms of recording, performance, etc. The use of the human voice, the > oldest instrument, can be made directly or using any technical =20 > means of > expression, just as with any instrument. What is important is that =20= > it is a > human voice sounding what it finds, within and around it self as a =20 > being, a=3D > s > a call and response with that which is. > > Sound Poetry one might say shatters that "upper limit music lower =20 > limit > speech" set of limitations which are imposed as being "poetry," =20 > and which > are intended to limit this to the word alone, or to a limited =20 > conception of > music. Sound Poetry can be a way of expressing those states which =20 > are not > defined, limited, tied to the conceptions of words, or of music, =20 > with their > attendant systems of control. > > The linking of Sound and Visual Poetry has been very productive =20 > since Dada, > and many of the artists I mentioned here were also Visual Poets or =20= > edited > and published journals which featured a great deal of Visual Poetry =20= > and > related work. > > Sound Poetry since Zaum, Italian Futurism and Dada has also had a =20 > politica=3D > l > element, which has found form especially in many works by Padin and =20= > also > Blonk, among a great many. Chopin was very influenced by the =20 > Anarchist > thinker Max Stirner, and Bob Cobbing's Writers Forum was very often > critiqued for its "Anarchism." > > Another aspect of Sound Poetry that is very useful to think on is =20 > that on > may make it anywhere, anytime--with the voice, with breathing. =20 > Reading of > the Internet outages in India and parts of the Middle East due to the > problems with some underwater cables, and, today, of the State =20 > control of > the Internet in China, one is reminded again that the conceptions of > technology and aesthetics which the electronics give rise to can be as > easily shut off as a light bulb. There is very much alive the 19th =20= > century > idea of "progress" being linked with the technological in terms of > "aesthetics" as in all other spheres of existence. One of the =20 > advantages o=3D > f > this is that it gives the creation of and obeisance to Authority =20 > new degree=3D > s > of power, "standards," "limits," and helps to produce control and > conformity. > > The direction of what is thought of as being the "highest level" of > information, aesthetics, "Authority," and the like becomes =20 > transferred to a > realm which is in fact more easily controlled and limited. > > Hi-Fi can become then the representative of that which has passed =20 > all the > tests of censors, experts, authorities and become "the purest form of > expression of Values" "of a culture," of a State, of an "avant-=20 > garde" which > has become as it were "preserved in amber." > > The "avant-garde" has tended to emerge not hand in hand with "most =20 > advanced > technology" but with on the contrary, a reversal, in which is =20 > introduced > into "art" is that which is hidden in plain sight in "the common thing > anonymously about us" as WCW put. Think of Duchamp's "Fountain," for > example, or that one-man avant-garde Kurt Schwitters/Merz, with his =20= > use of > trash from the streets for collages, his "Ur-Sonate", his Merzbau =20 > of found > objects. A great deal of the most "advanced" work comes from the =20 > use of th=3D > e > most debased and overlooked materials, the lack of equipment, the =20 > making-do > of DIY. Later on, once the artist is famous and wealthy, or the =20 > "movement" > has begun to acquire institutional and investor cache--then of =20 > course, ther=3D > e > is the funding and the ability to attract persons as assistants or =20 > "new > artists" who are able to use the new technologies. Butt the =20 > genesis of the > avant-garde has tended to come from the street level, from =20 > dumpsters and > thrown away newspapers, more than from "Hi-Fi." What will be found =20= > in the > "Hi-Fi" realms at first is more likely to be what is considered =20 > already a > "classical avant-garde" conception derived from the earlier forms =20 > which cam=3D > e > out of the First Sound--a baby's cry--the Big Bang--a Chaos--out of =20= > which > later on come the words, thee music, the forms, the developments of > technologies. And when this reaches a point of overload, it flips =20 > back int=3D > o > noise--and begins again--as something other-- > > The journals Leonardo and Visible Language may be places to take a =20 > look for > what you are asking about. I don't myself, but am sure others here =20= > do, and > wish you al the best with your search. > > A suggestion though as you know engineering--since after all the > "avant-garde' is a military term, that is where to perhaps also =20 > conduct an > investigation in terms of "Hi Fi" as well as DIY. > For a series of "annals of the New Extreme Experimental American =20 > Poetry" an=3D > d > series of fictions, I've found these areas are well worth studying. > > I think a lot of Hi Fi work can be done with some engineering/=20 > electronics > knowledge and those things which are at hand, as so many of them =20 > are alread=3D > y > in themselves already so "highly developed." > > I think in a sense that what you are looking for has many elements =20 > however > which would be those which might preclude a great deal of very =20 > interesting > and profound work. At a certain point of the Hi Fi scale, one =20 > begins to > enter a realm which tends to become "cleaned" of of the mess and =20 > dirt of th=3D > e > human voice's more dissonant and perhaps dissident expressiveness, =20 > outside > the "music/speech" limits. > > In a very strange sense, one could say for example that one form of =20= > Hi Fi > "sound poetry" might be the kinds of sounds found on the =20 > "destroyed" CIA > torture tapes. There one might find the the "most advanced and =20 > highest > levels of techniques" employed in order to force the production of =20 > human > sounds, recorded with the most advanced equipments, so that they =20 > may be the > most closely "analysed" for any fragment at all, any phoneme, any =20 > shred of =3D > a > morpheme, that might resemble, amid the "noise," a scrap of =20 > "information." > > The quality of sound of "listening devices" from satellites, the =20 > productio=3D > n > of "recordings in/of" space, of undersea movements--there are ever =20 > higher > levels of equipment along these lines available at ever lower =20 > prices to the > public, so it is possible a new Hi Fi avant-garde could be =20 > constructed alon=3D > g > the lines of equipments found in the pages of journals like =20 > Soldiers of > Fortune, as well as at radio Shack. Again, one can--and people do--=20= > develop > "avant-gardes" at street level which one has to wait until they become > "acceptable" as "aesthetics" to find them at what is regarded from the > aesthetic point of view as Hi Fi. > > Reading of the methods Al-Queda used at one point to transmit =20 > communication=3D > s > without being detected by the highest quality listening devices in the > world--one finds again the use of the cheapest, "junk" linked in a =20 > series o=3D > f > hookups that leap by the most ingenious means among several =20 > different forms > of message carrying, including satellites, across quite a large =20 > distance. > And the only evidence found later is the remains of a dime store =20 > disposable > phone. > > I perform and make Sound Poetry myself--and hope at some point to have > access to doing much more work with some more developed methods of =20 > recordin=3D > g > than i have currently available. For notations I use anything at =20 > the momen=3D > t > as well as Visual Poetry notations and even some that are just hand =20= > written > soundings written down as one hears them in the head or from the =20 > environmen=3D > t > using the roman alphabet. > > Due to the means i have, obviously this is still "low tech, low fi," > A question to think on is what you are perhaps asking for is not =20 > so much > the quality of the work itself as the quality of the recording, in =20 > which to > some degree perhaps there is an idea that a better level of =20 > recording might > indeed elicit a more "classical" Hi Fi High Art form of listening =20 > experienc=3D > e > which in turn is presumed perhaps to be equated with a High Aesthetic > Quality also. > > Good Sound Quality in a sense being implied perhaps to go hand in =20 > hand with > Good Quality Avant-Garde Hi Fi. In a sense is this a form of a =20 > "Return of > the Aura" within Walter Benjamin's "Age of Mechanical =20 > Reproduction," then--=3D > ? > > Believe me, I would love to work with some much better equipment =20 > than i hav=3D > e > yet, but i think without all the dirt and mess of working in other =20 > ways, on=3D > e > would not be able to recognize what it is one is finding in =20 > entering anothe=3D > r > level of materials and tools. There are however, already a great =20 > many guide=3D > s > spanning a near century of work and recordings ongoing. > > I have some links to add to this for you but my ride for the super =20 > bow l is > waiting outside-- > > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2008 12:16 AM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art >> archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the >> experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more interesting >> than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an awful lot going >> on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really caught up to the >> technological and aesthetic achievements of various electronic music >> types. Moreover, along with being more advanced and more challenging >> than a lot of the sound poetry i'm listening to on here, i tend to >> think that someone like for example the aphex twin or plastikman or >> iannis xenakis or glenn branca is also more accessible because >> they're coming at what they're doing from a starting place of music >> rather than a starting place of poetry. Googling around for search >> strings like "sound poetry" and "audio poetry" one tends to find a >> lot of recordings of readings, a lot of them pretty crummy qua >> recordings, which I guess is my complaint over all. I did find some >> stuff on PennSound that was kind of along the right track, things >> that were using signal processing to create sounds and which had an >> adequate level of audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep >> coming across sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a >> sound blaster 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. >> >> So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's >> sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out >> experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily >> seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals >> produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for >> years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i >> have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for me >> to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me that >> the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened in >> poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But listening to >> what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes me suspect that >> there's some unmined territory as far as audiotextual work goes and >> maybe I should start taking my own thoughts on the matter a little >> more seriously. >> >> So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art >> (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't the >> sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the interest, and >> in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or terrible >> consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily that I might >> not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm looking for is >> like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that sees the potential >> of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live reading or euro >> modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant garde jazz/musique >> concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to be the bulk of >> what's out there. >> >> Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references to >> any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Quackenbush >> > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:47:31 -0800 > From: Andy Gricevich > Subject: CANNOT EXIST #1 is out--submissions are open for #2 > > The editorial entity is plum(b) thrilled to announce > the first issue of > CANNOT EXIST > > featuring 50 pages of staggeringly good writing by > > Rick Burkhardt > Arielle Guy > Rob Halpern > Roberto Harrison > Lisa Jarnot > Kent Johnson > Laura Sims > Rodrigo Toscano > > Saddle-stapled with hand-stamped card covers, > with outside cover featuring mind-bending artwork by > Benjamin Grosser. > > Submissions are open for the second issue. > > Visit http://cannotexist.blogspot.com for guidelines, > ordering information, and such stuff. > > all the best, > > Andy G. > > > > > =20 > ______________________________________________________________________=20= > ______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://=20 > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 19:18:22 -0500 > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > Subject: Re: happy birthday alan sondheim > > Happy birthday! > Murat > > 2008/2/3 Gabriel Gudding : > >> have a great day, alan! >> >> >> >> -- >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ >> > > ------------------------------ > > End of POETICS Digest - 2 Feb 2008 to 3 Feb 2008 (#2008-35) > *********************************************************** > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 08:48:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: bodhisattvas In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wonderful. The visuals are just about the best I've ever seen. The words are good, too. Just what I needed at this moment. Thank you very much, Alan Alan Sondheim wrote: bodhisattvas http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud01.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud02.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud03.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud04.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud05.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud06.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud07.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud08.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud09.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud10.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud11.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud12.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud13.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/zbhud14.jpg ,===> i was n. and a had telling been me her that four, the from age of close unclear. to time, suicide, eighth for we when year tried so, up lived with in painted, her, visited asylum else pills p. everyone how after cut she married someone june else. first around my it all sad no store, turned got shortly hear pin could what going met worse i i was was n. n. and and a a had had telling telling been been me me her her that that four, four, the the from from age age of of close close unclear. unclear. to to time, time, suicide, suicide, eighth eighth for for we we when when year year tried tried so, so, up up lived lived with with in in painted, painted, her, her, visited visited asylum asylum else else pills pills p. p. everyone everyone how how after after cut cut she she married married someone someone june june else. else. first first around around my my it it all all sad sad no no store, store, turned turned got got shortly shortly hear hear pin pin could could what what going going met met worse worse dark. dark. i close was i n. was and n. a and had a telling had been telling me been her me that her four, that the four, from the age from of age close of unclear. with to unclear. time, to suicide, time, eighth suicide, for eighth we for when we year when tried year so, tried up so, lived up with lived in she painted, in her, painted, visited her, asylum visited else asylum pills else p. pills everyone p. how everyone after how cut after she cut married got someone married june someone else. june first else. around first my around it my all it sad all no sad store, no turned store, got turned shortly worse hear shortly pin hear could pin what could going what met going worse met dark. dark. i close was i n. was and n. a and had a telling had been telling me been her me that her four, that the four, from the age from of age close of unclear. with to unclear. time, to suicide, time, eighth suicide, for eighth we for when we year when tried year so, tried up so, lived up with lived in she painted, in her, painted, visited her, asylum visited else asylum pills else p. pills everyone p. how everyone after how cut after she cut married got someone married june someone else. june first else. around first my around it my all it sad all no sad store, no turned store, got turned shortly worse hear shortly pin hear could pin what could going what met going worse met --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 16:22:33 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate Pritts Subject: H_NGM_N @ AWP // 2 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This just in... =20 =20 H_NGM_N // W_RLD correspondent Eric Appleby checks in with some more video = posts & photos from the AWP conference.Check it all out at H_NGM_N // W_RLD= --> http://www.h-ngm-nw-rld.com H_NGM_N // W_RLD is the social network arm of the online lit mag H_NGM_N. = Come look around and consider signing up for your own profile & all the lat= est news & st_ff.___________Nate Prittshttp://www.h-ngm-nw-rld.com*Pre-orde= r my new chapbook SHRUG --> http://www.mainstreetrag.com/store/ComingSoon.p= hp _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.=A0You IM, we g= ive. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:50:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: masculine "new"??? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. flaff =09 footloose and fancy-free "I have no work or school today, i'm so flaff!" =09 2. flaff =09 a person or object you can't live without X: "What's a flaff?" Y: "Look in the mirror."=20 Your best friend; the person you love the most in the whole world; your penguin. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=3Dflaff) -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of David Harrison Horton Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 20:56 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: masculine "new"??? Gabriel, =20 How are you differentiating the "masculine" drive to self-declare avant with the obvious parallel activities of women such as Mina Loy (Feminist Manifesto, 1914) and Valerie Solanas (Scum Manifesto, 1968)? Are their declarations different? Perhaps more valid? What about women who self-declare avant or L=3DA=3DN=3DG or whatever? Or is this an assumption/assertion that avant status necessarily equals male privilege?=20 =20 I don't mean to be quippy here, but I would like you to expand your discussion on the subject. In your list of examples of "masculine" avants: =20 New FormalismLangpo PostmodernPost Avant / AVAnd More Recent and Ephemeral VariantsFlaff (flarf?)New Brutalism =20 It seems that you are conveniently ignoring scores of women who are not only affiliated with said poetic stances/social relationships, but who are also key figures in said. =20 =20 Did I read you completely wrong? =20 PS. Yes, Flarf has an R. No, I am not affiliated. =20 Best, David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot.com > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600> From: gmguddi@ILSTU.EDU> Subject: on declaring oneself "new"> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_01= 2 008 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:52:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: masculinity and the fetish of newness Comments: To: David Harrison Horton In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David, Yes, you did misread me. My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to "disappear" women from a variety of literary scenes. As it happens few women do peek through from the earlier era you mention 80-90 years ago: Djuna Barnes, Natalie Barney, Gertrude Stein, Jane Heap, Margaret Anderson, H. D., and, as you mention, Mina Loy. Others more knowledgeable than I have argued that even to be legible as women, these writers had to contend in a masculinized way. Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the "new" is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine. I think principally here of the more recent writings of Diane di Prima and Rachel Blau DuPlessis re these issues. And as both of them read this list from time to time, I'll not go to speaking for them. I would only repeat again that within the AG fields (fields that especially fetishize the new) there seems to be a *worse* track record regarding women. Both Ed Brunner and Michael Davidson have cast a pretty cold eye on masculinity in cold war poetics -- Brunner on more bourgeois writers, Davidson more AG. I like what Davidson says to sum up how the field functions: "Citing masculinity...is to cite zones of power. A corollary proposition might be that citing female masculinity cites fissures in zones of power." (Guys Like Us, 195). You mention Solanas. Her SCUM Manifesto is precisely about masculinity. Its purpose is less to create a rupture in masculinity than to frame an already bankrupt and ruptured mode. Either way, Davidson seems to be right. My point is that you don't get a lot of guys talking about the /new/ while also talking about how it's inflected by masculinity. And if one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out. Closest one gets in v recent days to a /new/-affiliated manifesto that tries to make legible its own gendered nature is the *New Sincerity* movement and manifesto from a few yrs ago -- which was promptly derided precisely in hyper-masculinized terms as not being "rigorous" and intellectual enough. I am aware that flaff has an R in it. Finally, I would add that the fetish of the "new" is homologous with masculinity in general and no political aesthetics in particular: it's something given to both right and left poles of the field of cultural production -- and it almost always appears with the mythos of the "badboy genius shaman" lurking not too far away. My point is that it seems finally necessary perhaps to cease thinking via the nominally supplied terms that a whole tradition encourages -- that of, in this case, the idea of the “first or fresh beginning,” a myth associated with some, usually male, “creator shaman badboy” types. All of which is so very very high school. High school and harmful. It’s shocking to me how faithful poets (both male and female) remain to such a thoroughly unexamined and weirdly heinous series of myths about production. My sense is that it is only through ceasing to reinvest in these gendered ideas and tactics that poets will actually wake up from what amounts to a pretty thorough alienation from their own work and lives -- alienation both from the material realities inherent in the field of production, not to mention the world around them. Best, Gabriel -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ David Harrison Horton wrote: > Gabriel, > > Anyway, below is the response to your post I sent to the Buffalo list tonight. Please read it as a real request for clarification on your position when it posts. David Harrison Horton > > > From: chasepark@hotmail.comTo: poetics@listserv.buffalo.eduSubject: RE: masculine "new"???Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:56:07 -0800 > > > Gabriel, How are you differentiating the "masculine" drive to self-declare avant with the obvious parallel activities of women such as Mina Loy (Feminist Manifesto, 1914) and Valerie Solanas (Scum Manifesto, 1968)? Are their declarations different? Perhaps more valid? What about women who self-declare avant or L=A=N=G or whatever? Or is this an assumption/assertion that avant status necessarily equals male privilege? I don't mean to be quippy here, but I would like you to expand your discussion on the subject.In your list of examples of "masculine" avants: New FormalismLangpo PostmodernPost Avant / AVAnd More Recent and Ephemeral VariantsFlaff (flarf?)New Brutalism It seems that you are conveniently ignoring scores of women who are not only affiliated with said poetic stances/social relationships, but who are also key figures in said. Did I read you completely wrong? PS. Yes, Flarf has an R. No, I am not affiliated. Best,David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot.com > >> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600> From: gmguddi@ILSTU.EDU> Subject: on declaring oneself "new"> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now! > _________________________________________________________________ > Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". > http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 12:08:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stuart Ross Subject: Re: FRIDA WAS RED! In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This was exactly the brilliant manifesto I needed to spark myself into motion today. Thanks for it, Conrad. Perhaps a little spy camera to document your cash-register encounters would be a good idea. Stu On 2/4/08 1:31 AM, "CA Conrad" wrote: > A Frida Kahlo retrospective is coming to the Philadelphia Museum of Art > later this month. The mega bookstore chain where I work has of course made > certain to have every single book about her and her work displayed front and > center. And of course they're selling. This bookstore is located in a > neighborhood of millionaires and billionaires called Rittenhouse Square. > It's a strange place, especially to someone with white trash roots like me, > and yet it's a fascinating STUDY, listening closely to these people, > watching them interact in their zoo of affluence. Like today, it's an > unseasonable 50 degrees, and these two jewel-encrusted women fresh from the > salon exchange little hello kisses. Then the one says, "OH, it's SO WARM I > can't wear my new mink coat!" (imagine her saying "coat" drawn out into an > elongated whine and you've got it!) The other one says, "OH, I know! I > know!" OH, these poor, poor women! Just another day in the filth of the > darkest possible side of the human condition where even the weather can > hamper a life stocked full of boredom and stupidity! > > In the past five years Americans in the top five percent income brackets > have INCREASED their wealth by an average forty percent. Keep this in mind, > always, please, in our time of war. > > But I LOVE to fuck with these people whenever it's possible in order to > continue to enrich my studies! My studies in The Laboratory of the Rich, or > whatever it's called, no official "class" title as of yet (yes, I pun badly, > give me a break). But Frida has provided a new opportunity! When > the wealthy art lovers of Rittenhouse bring their Frida books to the counter > I always say enthusiastically, "FRIDA KAHLO IS MY FAVORITE COMMUNIST!" I > wish this could be filmed, you really HAVE TO SEE the contempt reveal itself > in a pinch beneath the remarkably thin layer of poise that got them to the > counter with their vibrantly colored Frida souvenirs. > > The conversations have been interesting to say the least. Most recently one > man laughed and said, "WELL, her politics were misguided, but her art is > THANKFULLY separate from her politics!" I flipped quickly through his book > to the painting, "Marxism Will Give Health to the Sick," and I said, > pointing, "That's Karl Marx over her shoulder, see?" He rolled his eyes, > "Okay, just ring me up please!" Isn't that funny? He's buying a book with > Karl Marx's portrait in it, but Frida Kahlo's politics were misguided, OH, > and separate let's not forget! That's pretty damned funny! > > And by the way, ARE HER POLITICS SEPARATE FROM HER ART? Even if it's a > painting of fruit and birds? Wasn't the artist a whole person? Wasn't she > the PERSON she was, with all of her experiences and passion for those who > suffer and need, wasn't she this PERSON, always this PERSON, painting, or > laughing, fucking, living? I'd like to see what kind of paintings these > assholes in their mink coats and Armani suits would paint THAT'S MY POINT! > The PERSON who painted these paintings everyone wants to gather around to > celebrate was an amalgamation of many finely sharpened splinters of > intelligence and emotion and all of these different parts were communing > with each other to be the whole one behind the paint brush, at least that's > how I see it. And there's no denying FRIDA! WAS! RED! > > The reactions have been SO SEVERE with my little experiment that I've > decided I MUST make a T-shirt for the show at the art museum! A white shirt > with big red letters on front and back that read: > > FRIDA KAHLO > MY FAVORITE > COMMUNIST > YOURS TOO? > > At the 2003 Oscars, actor Gael Garcia Bernal came to the microphone to > introduce the song "Burn it Blue," nominated for an Oscar for the film > FRIDA, and he became emotional when stating that if Frida Kahlo were alive > she would be against the American war in Iraq. I didn't see the Oscars, but > heard about his statement the next day more than once in the context of, > "WHAT'S HIS PROBLEM!?" What's his problem? It was one of those moments, > when your country is at war, and suffering is a daily, chronic bloody > reality, and you REALLY SEE how your fellow citizens are living a life of > OPEN denial, with their little twists of collective glib exclamation no > less. Bernal's near burst of tears when making his antiwar statement get > translated with annoyance the next day and it's a new opportunity to MAYBE > NOT UNDERSTAND but maybe GET A BIGGER IMPACT of how confusing war is in > everyday life, especially from the perspective of the country doing the > aggressing, the country NOT being bombed, the country with a million people > NOT killed and able to walk around eating ice cream, chocolate, strawberry, > YUMMY! Are we really at war? Are you sure? Some days I'm not sure how to > feel about feeling or not feeling about it. And you, you are on my mind > too, and maybe I'm on yours? > > Maybe the threshold of pain is very different from what it has seemed to be? > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:30:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lanny quarles Subject: Re: FRIDA WAS RED! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What I've learned Conrad, is, that's okay to be a capitalist, it's okay to be a communist, but it is not okay to be Anti-procreation aka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHEMT and there are other less nice groups. The root of evil is not money Conrad, it's people. Money is language, and language is rooted in the virtuality of affect. Exploiting that gap is what poetry does, art does, religion does, commerce does. The only, ONLY political view necessary at all, Is stop making these things. there are too many. They can be lovely, but mostly because of language, its knotural ability to polarize, they're not. Otherwise, you make a living from being Pro Affect X versus Anti affect X The myth is that books make people smarter. Well enough. It also just makes them more "virulent" as in dis-ease.. this is "Dis" as in hell.. wouldn't it be nicer if it was easier? Diogenes thought so. I can conclude no other. and yes, it is sad. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:35:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lanny quarles Subject: Its War-like Customs Costume the Tomb Tomes' Semiotic Cities of Mess, My S comes, My Bodies Cringe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1975 Clement & La Frenais 'Porridge' 60 "You are a grotty, nurkish git." thyle is thinportaunt. lithuonium. stone camera. magic chymera. sigilum cimmeria. sign mirror. song (in minor) miner bird. kohl black balkan knack for labial liability. evest your tainted mouth. everest. the mountain. Cost of climbing, stock and trade. social labyrinth. "I'll rinth your labia out." I'll wash your mouth out with soap. With 'S''s hope? With poses. With poseys. Sewings seep. and the seepings go west young man, gooey name, groaning mane, graphomane. Graphing its mantic cheer is by no means easy. You say, "It's Nemo.." That's a memo, An old memory of veering joules, jewels delodged from their settings, ali baba's pelf, flip that, felt. To leaf abundantly gathers massless joy. To leaf abundantly garners masses, boils. The Missus misses her Mister, his messes, his unmastered mustering of mis-laid messages, his segues into seeming. Sew Sew Sew Wave to String and Bach, a 'gain' dB~ coo, purr.. Hermes in the shade of the waterfall of fire. so-so (makes hand gesture) Nippon. No pen. No head. The mighty Jain is here again. Like Apollo with its heed cued to 'off' Acephale. I see fuel, fool.. Eye seed fail. open hand ale. square yew and the way of rocks. the rauch of dejectiles the rafters, or beams ejected (raucously) raw cuss. Customers of war. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:35:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: FRIDA WAS RED! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Her art is wonderful. It is political, painfully personal, and sometimes just funny. She just left the Walker in Minneapolis, and I saw so many of her amazing paintings--I had no idea. I went to two of the free Saturdays and the place was packed--we had to stand in line to get in to see her art. The gallery was packed--lots of humanity, children with their parents, old people, college students, sweating bodies--Frida would have approved. I have been to the city (Guanjuato, Mexico) where Rivera was born. He was apparently reviled for his communist views, but after the fact, after he died, he has been welcomed as their hometown artist. Mary CA Conrad wrote: A Frida Kahlo retrospective is coming to the Philadelphia Museum of Art later this month. The mega bookstore chain where I work has of course made certain to have every single book about her and her work displayed front and center. And of course they're selling. This bookstore is located in a neighborhood of millionaires and billionaires called Rittenhouse Square. It's a strange place, especially to someone with white trash roots like me, and yet it's a fascinating STUDY, listening closely to these people, watching them interact in their zoo of affluence. Like today, it's an unseasonable 50 degrees, and these two jewel-encrusted women fresh from the salon exchange little hello kisses. Then the one says, "OH, it's SO WARM I can't wear my new mink coat!" (imagine her saying "coat" drawn out into an elongated whine and you've got it!) The other one says, "OH, I know! I know!" OH, these poor, poor women! Just another day in the filth of the darkest possible side of the human condition where even the weather can hamper a life stocked full of boredom and stupidity! In the past five years Americans in the top five percent income brackets have INCREASED their wealth by an average forty percent. Keep this in mind, always, please, in our time of war. But I LOVE to fuck with these people whenever it's possible in order to continue to enrich my studies! My studies in The Laboratory of the Rich, or whatever it's called, no official "class" title as of yet (yes, I pun badly, give me a break). But Frida has provided a new opportunity! When the wealthy art lovers of Rittenhouse bring their Frida books to the counter I always say enthusiastically, "FRIDA KAHLO IS MY FAVORITE COMMUNIST!" I wish this could be filmed, you really HAVE TO SEE the contempt reveal itself in a pinch beneath the remarkably thin layer of poise that got them to the counter with their vibrantly colored Frida souvenirs. The conversations have been interesting to say the least. Most recently one man laughed and said, "WELL, her politics were misguided, but her art is THANKFULLY separate from her politics!" I flipped quickly through his book to the painting, "Marxism Will Give Health to the Sick," and I said, pointing, "That's Karl Marx over her shoulder, see?" He rolled his eyes, "Okay, just ring me up please!" Isn't that funny? He's buying a book with Karl Marx's portrait in it, but Frida Kahlo's politics were misguided, OH, and separate let's not forget! That's pretty damned funny! And by the way, ARE HER POLITICS SEPARATE FROM HER ART? Even if it's a painting of fruit and birds? Wasn't the artist a whole person? Wasn't she the PERSON she was, with all of her experiences and passion for those who suffer and need, wasn't she this PERSON, always this PERSON, painting, or laughing, fucking, living? I'd like to see what kind of paintings these assholes in their mink coats and Armani suits would paint THAT'S MY POINT! The PERSON who painted these paintings everyone wants to gather around to celebrate was an amalgamation of many finely sharpened splinters of intelligence and emotion and all of these different parts were communing with each other to be the whole one behind the paint brush, at least that's how I see it. And there's no denying FRIDA! WAS! RED! The reactions have been SO SEVERE with my little experiment that I've decided I MUST make a T-shirt for the show at the art museum! A white shirt with big red letters on front and back that read: FRIDA KAHLO MY FAVORITE COMMUNIST YOURS TOO? At the 2003 Oscars, actor Gael Garcia Bernal came to the microphone to introduce the song "Burn it Blue," nominated for an Oscar for the film FRIDA, and he became emotional when stating that if Frida Kahlo were alive she would be against the American war in Iraq. I didn't see the Oscars, but heard about his statement the next day more than once in the context of, "WHAT'S HIS PROBLEM!?" What's his problem? It was one of those moments, when your country is at war, and suffering is a daily, chronic bloody reality, and you REALLY SEE how your fellow citizens are living a life of OPEN denial, with their little twists of collective glib exclamation no less. Bernal's near burst of tears when making his antiwar statement get translated with annoyance the next day and it's a new opportunity to MAYBE NOT UNDERSTAND but maybe GET A BIGGER IMPACT of how confusing war is in everyday life, especially from the perspective of the country doing the aggressing, the country NOT being bombed, the country with a million people NOT killed and able to walk around eating ice cream, chocolate, strawberry, YUMMY! Are we really at war? Are you sure? Some days I'm not sure how to feel about feeling or not feeling about it. And you, you are on my mind too, and maybe I'm on yours? Maybe the threshold of pain is very different from what it has seemed to be? CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:51:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Thanks Jim, you stated that a lot better than I did. And you're absolutely right about what it is I'm looking for and thanks for pointing me in a few directions. Whitehead is pretty amazing and I'm in the process of building up a huge archive of his audio files. I can't wait to get home from work and look into the other folks you mention. I find this field very exciting and at the same time am kind of awed and humbled that I've been unaware of it for so long. I was an audio engineer years before i started taking poetry seriously, and always had come at it from my practices as a musician. For a long time I've harbored the suspicion that there was a connection to be made to poetry in those things, but generally speaking when you start looking around at general resources for this kind of thing, you almost always get pointed at people who were dead before I was born. Or maybe pointed to burroughs who at least was doing the cut up stuff before i was born. Any further looking into it than that, I generally i've gotten diverted by the sources into further exploration of people like Steve Reich or Nam June Paik. Who are great, but they're composers not poets. So again, thanks for all the advice and direction both here and in your other email. Thanks, Jason Quackenbush On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Jim Andrews wrote: > i didn't get the impression, david, that jason was saying signal/noise ratio > was the be all and end all. > > one of the things he asked was whether there were poets out there taking > recorded sound seriously as artistic media. > > of course it isn't simply about signal/noise ratio in the simple sense of > that term. and jason seems quite aware of that. > > when i produced a literary radio show for six years, i started out recording > poets and prose writers reading their work. > > then got interested in the sound poets and that history. > > and then stuff like burroughs's cutups. > > and more or less at the same time came across the work of the 'audio > writers'. these writers were/are taking recorded sound seriously as artistic > media. whitehead's background is in theory and theatre. he's a thinker. and > a very diverse voice. and an imaginative producer. and the best writer on > audio i've encountered. > > douglas kahn is another interesting thinker/writer/producer. same with jacki > apple. and susan stone. > > these folks are, fundamentally, doing sound poetry. intensely engaged with > voice and language. but they're also not retarded about audio technology. > quite the contrary. they're as good as any audio producer in the studio. and > that's not a sin of fetishization of technology, necessarily, david. that's > just called being able to write to the medium. > > the voice is wider than the voice. > > the human voice is extended through technology. in many ways. most > fundamentally, the recording allows the voice to carry across space and time > in a way that it does not normally. it's disembodied. it's invisible. > > the studio extends it in other ways. the cut is one of the main phenomena of > the studio. the wound. when you cut tape the future leaks out. said > burroughs. the cut has many valences, many energies. whitehead writes > brilliantly about the cut. and a great deal of his work explores the cut in > a profoundly human way. display wounds. the pleasure principle. dead > letters. escalated ziggurat inhalation. these are some of his titles. his > work is all the more human for its cuts. > > the attitude (not saying you think this way) that studio-produced work is > inauthentic is grade 1 in audio mentality. i came across, for instance, the > attitude that live radio is better than studio produced radio, is more > authentic and human than studio-produced radio. yet, listening to the audio > writers, it was clear to me that this work was simply deeper and, oddly, > more poetical, more human, in a certain sense, than most of the live radio > or simple recordings of poets reading or performing or whatever. more > engaging. deeper as inscription. > > i think it's this sort of thing jason's looking for. not simply a less > scratchy surface. > > ja > > ps: have added to http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky2 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:02:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: FRIDA WAS RED! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I think this is all very interesting, but it does raise a question. I have books by Ezra Pound whose politics I find supremely disturbing, but by and large i don't have to agree with those politics to appreciate his work. What's the difference between me, a confirmed lefty, appreciating a black shirt's poetry, and a wealthy conservative appreciating Frida Kahlo's paintings? I don't like Frida Kahlo's paintings personally and tend to think she's a bit over rated and that she's become fashionable thanks to Salma Hayek is a bit goofy, but that's beside the point. Can't we separate a person qua artist from a person qua asshole if we want to? Don't we generally do that? If we have to like everybody as a person in order to appreciate their art, I'd tend to think most of our museums and bookshelves would be mighty bare. On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, CA Conrad wrote: > A Frida Kahlo retrospective is coming to the Philadelphia Museum of Art > later this month. The mega bookstore chain where I work has of course made > certain to have every single book about her and her work displayed front and > center. And of course they're selling. This bookstore is located in a > neighborhood of millionaires and billionaires called Rittenhouse Square. > It's a strange place, especially to someone with white trash roots like me, > and yet it's a fascinating STUDY, listening closely to these people, > watching them interact in their zoo of affluence. Like today, it's an > unseasonable 50 degrees, and these two jewel-encrusted women fresh from the > salon exchange little hello kisses. Then the one says, "OH, it's SO WARM I > can't wear my new mink coat!" (imagine her saying "coat" drawn out into an > elongated whine and you've got it!) The other one says, "OH, I know! I > know!" OH, these poor, poor women! Just another day in the filth of the > darkest possible side of the human condition where even the weather can > hamper a life stocked full of boredom and stupidity! > > In the past five years Americans in the top five percent income brackets > have INCREASED their wealth by an average forty percent. Keep this in mind, > always, please, in our time of war. > > But I LOVE to fuck with these people whenever it's possible in order to > continue to enrich my studies! My studies in The Laboratory of the Rich, or > whatever it's called, no official "class" title as of yet (yes, I pun badly, > give me a break). But Frida has provided a new opportunity! When > the wealthy art lovers of Rittenhouse bring their Frida books to the counter > I always say enthusiastically, "FRIDA KAHLO IS MY FAVORITE COMMUNIST!" I > wish this could be filmed, you really HAVE TO SEE the contempt reveal itself > in a pinch beneath the remarkably thin layer of poise that got them to the > counter with their vibrantly colored Frida souvenirs. > > The conversations have been interesting to say the least. Most recently one > man laughed and said, "WELL, her politics were misguided, but her art is > THANKFULLY separate from her politics!" I flipped quickly through his book > to the painting, "Marxism Will Give Health to the Sick," and I said, > pointing, "That's Karl Marx over her shoulder, see?" He rolled his eyes, > "Okay, just ring me up please!" Isn't that funny? He's buying a book with > Karl Marx's portrait in it, but Frida Kahlo's politics were misguided, OH, > and separate let's not forget! That's pretty damned funny! > > And by the way, ARE HER POLITICS SEPARATE FROM HER ART? Even if it's a > painting of fruit and birds? Wasn't the artist a whole person? Wasn't she > the PERSON she was, with all of her experiences and passion for those who > suffer and need, wasn't she this PERSON, always this PERSON, painting, or > laughing, fucking, living? I'd like to see what kind of paintings these > assholes in their mink coats and Armani suits would paint THAT'S MY POINT! > The PERSON who painted these paintings everyone wants to gather around to > celebrate was an amalgamation of many finely sharpened splinters of > intelligence and emotion and all of these different parts were communing > with each other to be the whole one behind the paint brush, at least that's > how I see it. And there's no denying FRIDA! WAS! RED! > > The reactions have been SO SEVERE with my little experiment that I've > decided I MUST make a T-shirt for the show at the art museum! A white shirt > with big red letters on front and back that read: > > FRIDA KAHLO > MY FAVORITE > COMMUNIST > YOURS TOO? > > At the 2003 Oscars, actor Gael Garcia Bernal came to the microphone to > introduce the song "Burn it Blue," nominated for an Oscar for the film > FRIDA, and he became emotional when stating that if Frida Kahlo were alive > she would be against the American war in Iraq. I didn't see the Oscars, but > heard about his statement the next day more than once in the context of, > "WHAT'S HIS PROBLEM!?" What's his problem? It was one of those moments, > when your country is at war, and suffering is a daily, chronic bloody > reality, and you REALLY SEE how your fellow citizens are living a life of > OPEN denial, with their little twists of collective glib exclamation no > less. Bernal's near burst of tears when making his antiwar statement get > translated with annoyance the next day and it's a new opportunity to MAYBE > NOT UNDERSTAND but maybe GET A BIGGER IMPACT of how confusing war is in > everyday life, especially from the perspective of the country doing the > aggressing, the country NOT being bombed, the country with a million people > NOT killed and able to walk around eating ice cream, chocolate, strawberry, > YUMMY! Are we really at war? Are you sure? Some days I'm not sure how to > feel about feeling or not feeling about it. And you, you are on my mind > too, and maybe I'm on yours? > > Maybe the threshold of pain is very different from what it has seemed to be? > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:15:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Boston & Albany: Flim Forum readings this week MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 6 7:30pm Cambridge, MA READERS: Kate Schapira, Jaye Bartell, Jennifer Karmin, Laura Sims, Matthew Klane, Adam Golaski, John Cotter, and Deborah Poe HARVARD ADVOCATE BUILDING 21 South Street, upstairs walking distance from the Harvard T sponsored by Grolier Poetry Book Shop http://www.theharvardadvocate.com/order.html FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 8 7pm Albany, NY READERS: Michael Ives, Deborah Poe, Jennifer Karmin, Matthew Klane, and Adam Golaski JAWBONE at UAG GALLERY 247 Lark Street sponsored by the SUNY Albany English Department http://upstateartistsguild.org A SING ECONOMY is the second Flim Forum Press anthology and contains extensive selections from 20 contemporary poets. Founded in 2005, Flim Forum Press is an independent press that provides SPACE for emerging poets working in a variety of experimental modes. It's edited by Matthew Klane and Adam Golaski. http://www.flimforum.blogspot.com UPCOMING EVENTS WITH FLIM FORUM AUTHORS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *3/5/08 - Berkeley, CA: Pegasus Books Downtown http://www.pegasusbookstore.com *3/15/08 - Los Angeles, CA: Betalevel http://betalevel.com *3/19/08 - Ithaca, NY: The Ithaca Bookery http://www.thebookery.com/boo_ld.taf *3/20/08 - Cortland, NY: SUNY Cortland http://www.cortland.edu/english *3/20/08 - Buffalo, NY: Rust Belt Books http://artvoice.com/directory/rust_belt_books *3/22/08 - Buffalo, NY: Small Press Book Fair http://www.buffalosmallpress.org *4/12/08 - Providence, RI: Publicly Complex http://www.ada-books.com *4/19/08 - Chicago, IL: Red Rover Series http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:31:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Happy In-Reply-To: <005801c86754$563692b0$0500a8c0@pacificdeqgc16> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To have some new poems up at Jacket: http://jacketmagazine.com/35/king-amy.shtml Cheers, Amy http://amyking.org/blog/ --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 11:37:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Mosconi Subject: Area Sneaks - new poetry & visual art journal, available now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *AREA SNEAKS * http://www.areasneaks.com/* * *ISSUE ONE Contents* Essays by Stan Apps on "social art" and Daniel Tiffany on "infidel culture and the politics of nightlife" Interviews with artists Stephanie Taylor (conducted by Kathryn Andrews and Michael Ned Holte) and Scoli Acosta (conducted by Joseph Mosconi and Rita Gonzalez) Artist projects by Marie Jager, William E. Jones and Christopher Russell Poetry by Sawako Nakayasu, Mark Wallace, Andrew Maxwell, Therese Bachand, K. Lorraine Graham and Ian Monk The first appearance in English of Emmanuel Hocquard's long prose poem "The Cape of Good Hope" Visual poetry by Ben & Sandra Doller Editors: Joseph Mosconi & Rita Gonzalez $15 order with paypal online at: http://areasneaks.com/index.php?id=5 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: masculinity and the fetish of newness In-Reply-To: <47A742C4.8000406@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The relative marginalization of women poets is=20 far more a phenomenon of the "avant" than=20 otherwise, at least in English. There's an odd,=20 persistent idea that it was more general. I'd=20 suggest doing a head count of the dominant=20 anthology of the 30s and 40s, John Untermeyer's=20 Modern American/Modern British Poets, to get an=20 idea of how close to parity the numbers were. In=20 that period there were a fair number even of=20 avantish type women, very much in sympathy with=20 the idea of the new, though they tended to produce fewer manifestos. Mark At 11:52 AM 2/4/2008, you wrote: >David, > >Yes, you did misread me. > >My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics >around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to >"disappear" women from a variety of literary scenes. As it happens few >women do peek through from the earlier era you mention 80-90 years ago: >Djuna Barnes, Natalie Barney, Gertrude Stein, Jane Heap, Margaret >Anderson, H. D., and, as you mention, Mina Loy. Others more >knowledgeable than I have argued that even to be legible as women, these >writers had to contend in a masculinized way. > >Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a >vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG >fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the "new" >is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine. I think >principally here of the more recent writings of Diane di Prima and >Rachel Blau DuPlessis re these issues. And as both of them read this >list from time to time, I'll not go to speaking for them. I would only >repeat again that within the AG fields (fields=20 >that especially fetishize the new) there seems=20 >to be a *worse* track record regarding women. > >Both Ed Brunner and Michael Davidson have cast a pretty cold eye on >masculinity in cold war poetics -- Brunner on more bourgeois writers, >Davidson more AG. I like what Davidson says to sum up how the field >functions: "Citing masculinity...is to cite zones of power. A corollary >proposition might be that citing female masculinity cites fissures in >zones of power." (Guys Like Us, 195). > >You mention Solanas. Her SCUM Manifesto is precisely about masculinity. >Its purpose is less to create a rupture in masculinity than to frame an >already bankrupt and ruptured mode. Either way, Davidson seems to be >right. My point is that you don't get a lot of guys talking about the >/new/ while also talking about how it's inflected by masculinity. And if >one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with >peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out. > >Closest one gets in v recent days to a /new/-affiliated manifesto that >tries to make legible its own gendered nature is the *New Sincerity* >movement and manifesto from a few yrs ago -- which was promptly derided >precisely in hyper-masculinized terms as not being "rigorous" and >intellectual enough. > >I am aware that flaff has an R in it. > >Finally, I would add that the fetish of the=20 >"new" is homologous with masculinity in general=20 >and no political aesthetics in particular: it's=20 >something given to both right and left poles of=20 >the field of cultural production -- and it=20 >almost always appears with the mythos of the=20 >"badboy genius shaman" lurking not too far away. > >My point is that it seems finally necessary=20 >perhaps to cease thinking via the nominally=20 >supplied terms that a whole tradition encourages=20 >-- that of, in this case, the idea of the =93first=20 >or fresh beginning,=94 a myth associated with=20 >some, usually male, =93creator shaman badboy=94=20 >types. All of which is so very very high school. High school and harmful. > >It=92s shocking to me how faithful poets (both=20 >male and female) remain to such a thoroughly=20 >unexamined and weirdly heinous series of myths=20 >about production. My sense is that it is only=20 >through ceasing to reinvest in these gendered=20 >ideas and tactics that poets will actually wake=20 >up from what amounts to a pretty thorough=20 >alienation from their own work and lives --=20 >alienation both from the material realities=20 >inherent in the field of production, not to mention the world around them. > >Best, >Gabriel >-- >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > >David Harrison Horton wrote: >>Gabriel, >> >>Anyway, below is the response to your post I=20 >>sent to the Buffalo list tonight. Please read=20 >>it as a real request for clarification on your=20 >>position when it posts. David Harrison Horton >>From: chasepark@hotmail.comTo:=20 >>poetics@listserv.buffalo.eduSubject: RE:=20 >>masculine "new"???Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:56:07 -0800 >> >>Gabriel, How are you differentiating the=20 >>"masculine" drive to self-declare avant with=20 >>the obvious parallel activities of women such=20 >>as Mina Loy (Feminist Manifesto, 1914) and=20 >>Valerie Solanas (Scum Manifesto, 1968)? Are=20 >>their declarations different? Perhaps more=20 >>valid? What about women who self-declare avant=20 >>or L=3DA=3DN=3DG or whatever? Or is this an=20 >>assumption/assertion that avant status=20 >>necessarily equals male privilege? I don't=20 >>mean to be quippy here, but I would like you to=20 >>expand your discussion on the subject.In your=20 >>list of examples of "masculine" avants: New=20 >>FormalismLangpo PostmodernPost Avant / AVAnd=20 >>More Recent and Ephemeral VariantsFlaff=20 >>(flarf?)New Brutalism It seems that you are=20 >>conveniently ignoring scores of women who are=20 >>not only affiliated with said poetic=20 >>stances/social relationships, but who are also=20 >>key figures in said. Did I read you=20 >>completely wrong? PS. Yes, Flarf has an R. No,=20 >>I am not affiliated. Best,David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot.com >> >>>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600> From:=20 >>>gmguddi@ILSTU.EDU> Subject: on declaring=20 >>>oneself "new"> To:=20 >>>POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >>Connect and share in new ways with Windows=20 >>Live. Get it now!=20 >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Need to know the score, the latest news, or you=20 >>need your Hotmail=AE-get your "fix". >>http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:25:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: masculinity and the fetish of newness In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080204173031.05c97be0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You've missed two of the most important poets of the 20th C - Marianne = Moore and the Canadian poet, Elizabeth Bishop - who were considered as good, = if not better, than their contemporary male poets - although Bishop should = have been considered as a much better poet than Lowell who only wrote two = decent books of poetry, the others being pathetic. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: February 4, 2008 4:36 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: masculinity and the fetish of newness The relative marginalization of women poets is=20 far more a phenomenon of the "avant" than=20 otherwise, at least in English. There's an odd,=20 persistent idea that it was more general. I'd=20 suggest doing a head count of the dominant=20 anthology of the 30s and 40s, John Untermeyer's=20 Modern American/Modern British Poets, to get an=20 idea of how close to parity the numbers were. In=20 that period there were a fair number even of=20 avantish type women, very much in sympathy with=20 the idea of the new, though they tended to produce fewer manifestos. Mark At 11:52 AM 2/4/2008, you wrote: >David, > >Yes, you did misread me. > >My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics >around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to >"disappear" women from a variety of literary scenes. As it happens few >women do peek through from the earlier era you mention 80-90 years ago: >Djuna Barnes, Natalie Barney, Gertrude Stein, Jane Heap, Margaret >Anderson, H. D., and, as you mention, Mina Loy. Others more >knowledgeable than I have argued that even to be legible as women, = these >writers had to contend in a masculinized way. > >Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a >vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG >fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the "new" >is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine. I think >principally here of the more recent writings of Diane di Prima and >Rachel Blau DuPlessis re these issues. And as both of them read this >list from time to time, I'll not go to speaking for them. I would only >repeat again that within the AG fields (fields=20 >that especially fetishize the new) there seems=20 >to be a *worse* track record regarding women. > >Both Ed Brunner and Michael Davidson have cast a pretty cold eye on >masculinity in cold war poetics -- Brunner on more bourgeois writers, >Davidson more AG. I like what Davidson says to sum up how the field >functions: "Citing masculinity...is to cite zones of power. A corollary >proposition might be that citing female masculinity cites fissures in >zones of power." (Guys Like Us, 195). > >You mention Solanas. Her SCUM Manifesto is precisely about masculinity. >Its purpose is less to create a rupture in masculinity than to frame an >already bankrupt and ruptured mode. Either way, Davidson seems to be >right. My point is that you don't get a lot of guys talking about the >/new/ while also talking about how it's inflected by masculinity. And = if >one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with >peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out. > >Closest one gets in v recent days to a /new/-affiliated manifesto that >tries to make legible its own gendered nature is the *New Sincerity* >movement and manifesto from a few yrs ago -- which was promptly derided >precisely in hyper-masculinized terms as not being "rigorous" and >intellectual enough. > >I am aware that flaff has an R in it. > >Finally, I would add that the fetish of the=20 >"new" is homologous with masculinity in general=20 >and no political aesthetics in particular: it's=20 >something given to both right and left poles of=20 >the field of cultural production -- and it=20 >almost always appears with the mythos of the=20 >"badboy genius shaman" lurking not too far away. > >My point is that it seems finally necessary=20 >perhaps to cease thinking via the nominally=20 >supplied terms that a whole tradition encourages=20 >-- that of, in this case, the idea of the =93first=20 >or fresh beginning,=94 a myth associated with=20 >some, usually male, =93creator shaman badboy=94=20 >types. All of which is so very very high school. High school and = harmful. > >It=92s shocking to me how faithful poets (both=20 >male and female) remain to such a thoroughly=20 >unexamined and weirdly heinous series of myths=20 >about production. My sense is that it is only=20 >through ceasing to reinvest in these gendered=20 >ideas and tactics that poets will actually wake=20 >up from what amounts to a pretty thorough=20 >alienation from their own work and lives --=20 >alienation both from the material realities=20 >inherent in the field of production, not to mention the world around = them. > >Best, >Gabriel >-- >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > >David Harrison Horton wrote: >>Gabriel, >> >>Anyway, below is the response to your post I=20 >>sent to the Buffalo list tonight. Please read=20 >>it as a real request for clarification on your=20 >>position when it posts. David Harrison Horton >>From: chasepark@hotmail.comTo:=20 >>poetics@listserv.buffalo.eduSubject: RE:=20 >>masculine "new"???Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:56:07 -0800 >> >>Gabriel, How are you differentiating the=20 >>"masculine" drive to self-declare avant with=20 >>the obvious parallel activities of women such=20 >>as Mina Loy (Feminist Manifesto, 1914) and=20 >>Valerie Solanas (Scum Manifesto, 1968)? Are=20 >>their declarations different? Perhaps more=20 >>valid? What about women who self-declare avant=20 >>or L=3DA=3DN=3DG or whatever? Or is this an=20 >>assumption/assertion that avant status=20 >>necessarily equals male privilege? I don't=20 >>mean to be quippy here, but I would like you to=20 >>expand your discussion on the subject.In your=20 >>list of examples of "masculine" avants: New=20 >>FormalismLangpo PostmodernPost Avant / AVAnd=20 >>More Recent and Ephemeral VariantsFlaff=20 >>(flarf?)New Brutalism It seems that you are=20 >>conveniently ignoring scores of women who are=20 >>not only affiliated with said poetic=20 >>stances/social relationships, but who are also=20 >>key figures in said. Did I read you=20 >>completely wrong? PS. Yes, Flarf has an R. No,=20 >>I am not affiliated. Best,David Harrison Horton = unionherald.blogspot.com >> >>>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600> From:=20 >>>gmguddi@ILSTU.EDU> Subject: on declaring=20 >>>oneself "new"> To:=20 >>>POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >>Connect and share in new ways with Windows=20 >>Live. Get it now!=20 >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Need to know the score, the latest news, or you=20 >>need your Hotmail=AE-get your "fix". >>http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.19/1257 - Release Date: = 03/02/2008 5:49 PM =20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.19/1257 - Release Date: = 03/02/2008 5:49 PM =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:26:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lanny quarles Subject: Re: FRIDA WAS RED! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's the difference between me, a confirmed lefty, appreciating a black shirt's poetry, and a wealthy conservative appreciating Frida Kahlo's paintings? Another better question might be, what is the difference between a "lefty" and a "black shirt"? The Nazi were National Socialists. Are you maybe just left-handed? Because you certainly don't understand the detailed vicissitudes of the lie of human "political theatre".. Look at Jonah Goldberg's book. I haven't, but then I don't need to. Once you've noticed the bedsore called the copula you don't need to look any further. Humanity is proof that God exists, and that It is very stupid! "Fascists," "Brownshirts," "jackbooted stormtroopers"-such are the insults typically hurled at conservatives by their liberal opponents. Calling someone a fascist is the fastest way to shut them up, defining their views as beyond the political pale. But who are the real fascists in our midst? Liberal Fascism offers a startling new perspective on the theories and practices that define fascist politics. Replacing conveniently manufactured myths with surprising and enlightening research, Jonah Goldberg reminds us that the original fascists were really on the left, and that liberals from Woodrow Wilson to FDR to Hillary Clinton have advocated policies and principles remarkably similar to those of Hitler's National Socialism and Mussolini's Fascism. Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term "National socialism"). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, promoted a new form of pagan spirituality, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities-where campus speech codes were all the rage. The Nazis led the world in organic farming and alternative medicine. Hitler was a strict vegetarian, and Himmler was an animal rights activist. Do these striking parallels mean that today's liberals are genocidal maniacs, intent on conquering the world and imposing a new racial order? Not at all. Yet it is hard to deny that modern progressivism and classical fascism shared the same intellectual roots. We often forget, for example, that Mussolini and Hitler had many admirers in the United States. W.E.B. Du Bois was inspired by Hitler's Germany, and Irving Berlin praised Mussolini in song. Many fascist tenets were espoused by American progressives like John Dewey and Woodrow Wilson, and FDR incorporated fascist policies in the New Deal. Fascism was an international movement that appeared in different forms in different countries, depending on the vagaries of national culture and temperament. In Germany, fascism appeared as genocidal racist nationalism. In America, it took a "friendlier," more liberal form. The modern heirs of this "friendly fascist" tradition include the New York Times, the Democratic Party, the Ivy League professoriate, and the liberals of Hollywood. The quintessential Liberal Fascist isn't an SS storm trooper; it is a female grade school teacher with an education degree from Brown or Swarthmore. These assertions may sound strange to modern ears, but that is because we have forgotten what fascism is. In this angry, funny, smart, contentious book, Jonah Goldberg turns our preconceptions inside out and shows us the true meaning of Liberal Fascism. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:30:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: masculinity and the fetish of newness In-Reply-To: <47A742C4.8000406@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I'm sorry Gabriel, I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from= , but this position doesn't seem to hold together very well to me. If you'r= e going to first stipulat avant gardism as masculine in its aims, then how = does the argument that successful female avant gardists are only successful= avant gardists through the adoption of masculine modes avoid question begg= ing inchorence? as a secondary concern, the thing about the shamanic badboy genius, i'm not= sure i buy that as a forever and alltime thing in our culture. frankly, i'= m a bit hard pressed to think of someone who lived that sort of lifestyle p= rior to maybe Caravaggio, and it's certainly not the only archetype we have= for innovative artists. It's certainly the most romantic, and i think what= it says about our culture that we make heroes out of rule breakers in all = of our various modes of mythmaking is interesting and worth exploring. But = I don't think our attraction to rulebreakers has to do with their masculini= ty. We like bad girls just as much as we like bad boys. and still we idoliz= e rulebreakers not as anarchists, but lawgivers of a new sort. these heroes= are not egoistic sociopaths. The most successfu are all Ubermenschen that= are there not to tell us to do whatever we like, they're there to tell us = to=20 follow different rules and to show us the benefits for doing so. to an exte= nt the byronic hero and the vamp seductress both use their sexuality as a t= ool to get what they want. Whatever else they do is foregrounded by that on= e particular rules violation, the taboo against human sexuality. I don't se= e that that has all that much to do with male and female, oddly enough. Rat= her, it seems to me to be a unity that prudes and teatotallers always trot = out to stifle th activities ot the sexually precocious. On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > David, > > Yes, you did misread me. > > My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics > around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to > "disappear" women from a variety of literary scenes. As it happens few > women do peek through from the earlier era you mention 80-90 years ago: > Djuna Barnes, Natalie Barney, Gertrude Stein, Jane Heap, Margaret > Anderson, H. D., and, as you mention, Mina Loy. Others more > knowledgeable than I have argued that even to be legible as women, these > writers had to contend in a masculinized way. > > Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a > vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG > fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the "new" > is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine. I think > principally here of the more recent writings of Diane di Prima and > Rachel Blau DuPlessis re these issues. And as both of them read this > list from time to time, I'll not go to speaking for them. I would only > repeat again that within the AG fields (fields that especially fetishize = the=20 > new) there seems to be a *worse* track record regarding women. > > Both Ed Brunner and Michael Davidson have cast a pretty cold eye on > masculinity in cold war poetics -- Brunner on more bourgeois writers, > Davidson more AG. I like what Davidson says to sum up how the field > functions: "Citing masculinity...is to cite zones of power. A corollary > proposition might be that citing female masculinity cites fissures in > zones of power." (Guys Like Us, 195). > > You mention Solanas. Her SCUM Manifesto is precisely about masculinity. > Its purpose is less to create a rupture in masculinity than to frame an > already bankrupt and ruptured mode. Either way, Davidson seems to be > right. My point is that you don't get a lot of guys talking about the > /new/ while also talking about how it's inflected by masculinity. And if > one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with > peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out. > > Closest one gets in v recent days to a /new/-affiliated manifesto that > tries to make legible its own gendered nature is the *New Sincerity* > movement and manifesto from a few yrs ago -- which was promptly derided > precisely in hyper-masculinized terms as not being "rigorous" and > intellectual enough. > > I am aware that flaff has an R in it. > > Finally, I would add that the fetish of the "new" is homologous with=20 > masculinity in general and no political aesthetics in particular: it's=20 > something given to both right and left poles of the field of cultural=20 > production -- and it almost always appears with the mythos of the "badboy= =20 > genius shaman" lurking not too far away. > > My point is that it seems finally necessary perhaps to cease thinking via= the=20 > nominally supplied terms that a whole tradition encourages -- that of, in= this=20 > case, the idea of the =E2=80=9Cfirst or fresh beginning,=E2=80=9D a myth = associated with=20 > some, usually male, =E2=80=9Ccreator shaman badboy=E2=80=9D types. All of= which is so very=20 > very high school. High school and harmful. > > It=E2=80=99s shocking to me how faithful poets (both male and female) rem= ain to such=20 > a thoroughly unexamined and weirdly heinous series of myths about product= ion.=20 > My sense is that it is only through ceasing to reinvest in these gendered= ideas=20 > and tactics that poets will actually wake up from what amounts to a prett= y=20 > thorough alienation from their own work and lives -- alienation both from= the=20 > material realities inherent in the field of production, not to mention th= e=20 > world around them. > > Best, > Gabriel > --=20 > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > David Harrison Horton wrote: >> Gabriel, >> Anyway, below is the response to your post I sent to the Buffalo list= =20 >> tonight. Please read it as a real request for clarification on your posi= tion=20 >> when it posts. David Harrison Horton From: chasepark@hotmail.comTo:=20 >> poetics@listserv.buffalo.eduSubject: RE: masculine "new"???Date: Sun, 3 = Feb=20 >> 2008 18:56:07 -0800 >>=20 >>=20 >> Gabriel, How are you differentiating the "masculine" drive to self-decla= re=20 >> avant with the obvious parallel activities of women such as Mina Loy=20 >> (Feminist Manifesto, 1914) and Valerie Solanas (Scum Manifesto, 1968)? A= re=20 >> their declarations different? Perhaps more valid? What about women who= =20 >> self-declare avant or L=3DA=3DN=3DG or whatever? Or is this an=20 >> assumption/assertion that avant status necessarily equals male privilege= ? I=20 >> don't mean to be quippy here, but I would like you to expand your discus= sion=20 >> on the subject.In your list of examples of "masculine" avants: New=20 >> FormalismLangpo PostmodernPost Avant / AVAnd More Recent and Ephemeral= =20 >> VariantsFlaff (flarf?)New Brutalism It seems that you are conveniently= =20 >> ignoring scores of women who are not only affiliated with said poetic=20 >> stances/social relationships, but who are also key figures in said. Di= d I=20 >> read you completely wrong? PS. Yes, Flarf has an R. No, I am not affilia= ted.=20 >> Best,David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot.com >>=20 >>> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600> From: gmguddi@ILSTU.EDU> Subject:= on=20 >>> declaring oneself "new"> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> >=20 >>> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >>=20 >> Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!=20 >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=C2=AE-= get your=20 >> "fix". >> http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 18:42:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: masculinity and the fetish of newness In-Reply-To: <47A742C4.8000406@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Gabe, The alienation you are referring to goes far beyond specific sexual distinctions and has its roots in the relationships of power in general. It may have to do with class, with international real politics, as well as sexual dynamics. In each case, one side imposes its values, its epistemology, its standards of excellence and achievement on others, making the other side more or less invisible or quartered, in other words, alienated from itself. To focus only on a sexual dynamic, making it THE cause, alienates the others whose alienation derives from other factors. For instance, a father in Iraq who can not get a job or loses a child (boy or girl) to a bomb is as alienated as the mother who lost the child. Alienation is caused by a lack of access to means of communication (an enforced silence), as much as a lack of access to the means of production. I agree with you, for instance, that Picasso's art will be seen from a very different angle if its misogyny -turning a number of his "great" paintings into sadistic erections- were not underplayed under the rubric of art. On the other hand, the distinctions between The School of Quietitude and Avant and further between Avant and Post Avant began to shape the discussions of poetry basically through Ron Silliman's Blog. I think Ron would intensely resent, and I assume rightly so, to be called misogynous. Having come to The United States more than forty years ago, I have always been intensely conscious of the cultural, stylistic, philosophical differences alienating me from the place I had entered. It was assumed all I had to do was "to educate" myself into it. (Had I not come to Amherst to get an education?) I refused to do so. The rest of my life has been to use American English to heal this alienation. But is this not what all poets, particularly in The United States, do? To see this essential process only as a struggle between masculinity and femininity forces is I think to deny visibility to many other energies shaping the poetic process. Ciao, Murat On Feb 4, 2008 11:52 AM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > David, > > Yes, you did misread me. > > My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics > around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to > "disappear" women from a variety of literary scenes. As it happens few > women do peek through from the earlier era you mention 80-90 years ago: > Djuna Barnes, Natalie Barney, Gertrude Stein, Jane Heap, Margaret > Anderson, H. D., and, as you mention, Mina Loy. Others more > knowledgeable than I have argued that even to be legible as women, these > writers had to contend in a masculinized way. > > Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a > vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG > fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the "new" > is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine. I think > principally here of the more recent writings of Diane di Prima and > Rachel Blau DuPlessis re these issues. And as both of them read this > list from time to time, I'll not go to speaking for them. I would only > repeat again that within the AG fields (fields that especially fetishize > the new) there seems to be a *worse* track record regarding women. > > Both Ed Brunner and Michael Davidson have cast a pretty cold eye on > masculinity in cold war poetics -- Brunner on more bourgeois writers, > Davidson more AG. I like what Davidson says to sum up how the field > functions: "Citing masculinity...is to cite zones of power. A corollary > proposition might be that citing female masculinity cites fissures in > zones of power." (Guys Like Us, 195). > > You mention Solanas. Her SCUM Manifesto is precisely about masculinity. > Its purpose is less to create a rupture in masculinity than to frame an > already bankrupt and ruptured mode. Either way, Davidson seems to be > right. My point is that you don't get a lot of guys talking about the > /new/ while also talking about how it's inflected by masculinity. And if > one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with > peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out. > > Closest one gets in v recent days to a /new/-affiliated manifesto that > tries to make legible its own gendered nature is the *New Sincerity* > movement and manifesto from a few yrs ago -- which was promptly derided > precisely in hyper-masculinized terms as not being "rigorous" and > intellectual enough. > > I am aware that flaff has an R in it. > > Finally, I would add that the fetish of the "new" is homologous with > masculinity in general and no political aesthetics in particular: it's > something given to both right and left poles of the field of cultural > production -- and it almost always appears with the mythos of the > "badboy genius shaman" lurking not too far away. > > My point is that it seems finally necessary perhaps to cease thinking > via the nominally supplied terms that a whole tradition encourages -- > that of, in this case, the idea of the "first or fresh beginning," a > myth associated with some, usually male, "creator shaman badboy" types. > All of which is so very very high school. High school and harmful. > > It's shocking to me how faithful poets (both male and female) remain to > such a thoroughly unexamined and weirdly heinous series of myths about > production. My sense is that it is only through ceasing to reinvest in > these gendered ideas and tactics that poets will actually wake up from > what amounts to a pretty thorough alienation from their own work and > lives -- alienation both from the material realities inherent in the > field of production, not to mention the world around them. > > Best, > Gabriel > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > David Harrison Horton wrote: > > Gabriel, > > > > Anyway, below is the response to your post I sent to the Buffalo list > tonight. Please read it as a real request for clarification on your position > when it posts. David Harrison Horton > > > > > > From: chasepark@hotmail.comTo: poetics@listserv.buffalo.eduSubject: RE: > masculine "new"???Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:56:07 -0800 > > > > > > Gabriel, How are you differentiating the "masculine" drive to > self-declare avant with the obvious parallel activities of women such as > Mina Loy (Feminist Manifesto, 1914) and Valerie Solanas (Scum Manifesto, > 1968)? Are their declarations different? Perhaps more valid? What about > women who self-declare avant or L=A=N=G or whatever? Or is this an > assumption/assertion that avant status necessarily equals male privilege? I > don't mean to be quippy here, but I would like you to expand your discussion > on the subject.In your list of examples of "masculine" avants: New > FormalismLangpo PostmodernPost Avant / AVAnd More Recent and Ephemeral > VariantsFlaff (flarf?)New Brutalism It seems that you are conveniently > ignoring scores of women who are not only affiliated with said poetic > stances/social relationships, but who are also key figures in said. Did I > read you completely wrong? PS. Yes, Flarf has an R. No, I am not affiliated. > Best,David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot.com > > > >> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600> From: gmguddi@ILSTU.EDU> Subject: > on declaring oneself "new"> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > > > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now! > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail(R)-get > your "fix". > > http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:35:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, cultural criminal or sacred heretic. Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the “angry outsider,” the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the maverick, the criminal. To hang one’s shingle as a disinterested shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet-Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one’s friends the apocalypse. Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: to display one’s disinterestedness in profit in order to display one’s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display one’s high mind via one’s principled disgust at the sycophancy and interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the literary community. This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one’s label on it. Iteration of the romantic “single actor” or “small cadre” theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the badboy victim-transgressor author. There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of “anger” or “being a jerk” as a mode of appropriating needs and dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as “the” origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a metaphor from Stan Apps: the “transgressor” is a retail product that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. Common tactic: to tout what one does as “shocking” or to start or further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and that one will be exonerated by history. Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the “sacred heretic” is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan Kaufman’s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 20:46:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: online text for Creative Writing and New Media Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed online text for Creative Writing and New Media Course at de Montfort University Writing and Wryting I write daily and when I'm not writing, I'm thinking about writing or writing in another medium; the world is a world of inscriptions. At one point I believed there were signs, that the world was inhabited by signifiers which might or might not have referents; now, after looking repeatedly at tantra and the casting-off of whatever was found and impeded, I think signifiers might be nothing except residues of a kind of frisson, the world rubbing up against itself. Whatever codes there are, and however these codes are manipulated - http://www.alansondheim.org/examples.txt - they're not the only story, or rather, they _are_ the story but that's nothing - what's going on in the world isn't story at all. We tend to make scripts of things around us - that's how we get along. For example, there's the restaurant script (and this example of course isn't mine) - I enter a restaurant I've never been in before, but I know exactly what to do; there's a restaurant script and subscripts; we don't make it up immediately - that would be far too costly - but rely on constructing, memory, reconstructing, and so forth, and there we are, eating together. And it's eating together, because scripts, like the world, are consensual and build community. Somebody said something like aye, there's the rub of it - and that's it, precisely; the world rubs one, _worlding_ is a form of rubbing - which makes virtual worlds such as Second Life all the more perplexed, where rubbing and any physics has to be _intended_ by someone, a programmer, or nothing would happen at all. Still, in second life, one might have bodies or rather one might _inscribe_ bodies with writing, and this body writing I call _wryting_ and it occurs in the real world as well. For example, http://www.alansondheim.org/throbbed.mp4 where avatars conform and display to one another, and all these behaviors are automated from written files called bvh files, which give an indica- tion of how virtual worlds are in fact a kind of writing. Here is part of a bvh which produced what you've seen in throbbed: HIERARCHY ROOT Hips { OFFSET 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 CHANNELS 6 Xposition Yposition Zposition Xrotation Zrotation Yrotation JOINT LeftHip { OFFSET 15.061017 17.082508 -14.925126 CHANNELS 3 Xrotation Zrotation Yrotation JOINT LeftKnee { OFFSET 160.534210 236.940994 175.551743 CHANNELS 3 Xrotation Zrotation Yrotation JOINT LeftAnkle This gives the initial positions of the body; later, there are tens of thousands of numbers that give the node movements from these positions. Do note that this is an ascii, a text file, and not a binary, not an executable; the file is executed by a program that uses it as data. In this sense, the virtual world is always inscribed, digital, just as the real physical world is not written, but _is,_ and is analog, and tends to wear out. Nothing wears out in the digital world, and while avatars - what I call emanents - need electricity to run, they don't need food. Still, given that, I think that for a conscious mind, a mind used to dreaming, to projections and introjections, there are no real differences between the virtual and the real, and there's dreaming, proverbs, tales, stories, poetry, poetics, hallucinations, hypnagogic imagery, meditations, and the like to show that. And even though the real physical world isn't written, it's full of writing and our bodies themselves are always already written, inscribed - full of tattoos, scars, burns, abrasions, wrinkles, salves, perfumes, calluses, and so forth. I think it's from these things, particularly from scars, wounds, abrasions, scrapes, etc., that language descends - that language is first and foremost a reading of the history of the body, that the body, the physical body, carries its own primordial memory upon it. That's important, since it's this memory, these scarrings, that bind us to the earth, to the world, the analogic. The digital is constructed from that with a bit of a help from the corporate, from political economy - the digital rides and infuses poitical economy in fact. So there are digital standards for sampling, for encoding and decoding and checksums and so forth, and these guarantee that a parsing of the world in one part of it can be a parsing of the world in another. Think of the digital as an extrusion, and think, even, of writing as _always_ digital or at least always discrete, one symbol differentiated from another, from the other, as all of them together generate meaning within organism and conscious- ness, generate culture. An aside here to the effect that _culture is all the way down,_ that any organism has culture, has learning, has the symbolic, has the digital (in the sense that catastrophe theory prescribes and describes certain sudden shifts in behavior or states which might as well be digital, that is _on and off switches_ operating within potential wells, that is a level above noise which allows them to function. Recent experiences in fact demon- strate amoebic memory, even within this one-celled animal without neurons or nervous system. It's important to think throug this, to see the world as not only processings but also culturings - if you do that, a very different kind of world emerges. So where does codework or digital writing come into play here? One might begin back with culturing - that the world is replete with poetics, that it makes real, concrete, sense to speak or think of the poetics of the real - that this isn't just metaphoric. And then one might proceed fur- ther and realize, within the analogic the digital resides - that the analog harbors splits and leaps, as the collapse of the wave equation or annihilation of virtual particles shows. And within the digital, there's the analog as well - the potential well upon which the digital rides, literally, let there be no mistake about it. So one might ride the digital as well, perceive the digital as an extru- sion from the analogic, or a residue, or a system of signs which for the most part are produced by humans, according to human conventions and protocols, for example, the tcp/ip structure or protocol suite of the Internet - and if not this protocol suite, another or an other. Then one writes here, in this medium, in this temporarily electronic medium (for there might be other sorts of transmission in the future, who knows? or other sorts now for that matter, literally for that matter). And within the digital, in which bits bite bits, every pixel, every character, every moment of the digital is independently accessible, and every moment is deeply ruptured, disconnected, from every other. This is why the digital is inherently untruthful; there's no truth within it, since manipulation is complete and replete within every file, every domain, every protocol, every instantiation in fact. There are no lies, either, and if there are narratologies, these reside in sememes embedded or encoded within the digital, interpreted by organism, often human. In creating in such an environment, one plays god, or at least deity (in the tantric sense); one constructs out of nothing, and if I write the phrase, as On Kawara might, "I am still alive," these letters are, at a very fundamental and concrete level, completely independent; I could just as well write "lkurj llisihg" or anything else, literally, again, for that matter, and for the sorts and sortings of that matter. Well, I can write anything, I can say anything. And some of what I write just lies there, and some is performative, in the sense that, if I type k3% date Sat Jan 19 01:13:23 EST 2008 at the k3% prompt, the date is returned - the word is not just a word, but an action, a process, an operation inherent in the reading and writing of it within an operating system. Now if I type k7% lkjsfug ksh: lkjsfug: not found as you can see, it's still performing, but the operating system is looking for a meaning or decoding and can't find any or rather finds a kind of null-decoding which is based on absence. So that electronic writing, with- in a terminal window is always a performance; it's never static. And it's not only a performance, but also a communalit, since there are others who may well be present, even though invisible, uncounted, and unaccountable: cbpp ftp12907 Jan 18 10:42 (cbpp8.cbpp.org) cbpp ftp7371 Jan 18 10:16 (cbpp8.cbpp.org) jpl15 ttyp0 Jan 18 11:20 (76.216.63.13) harold ttyp1 Jan 19 01:16 (12.6.206.9) dagger ttyp2 Jan 16 01:31 (24.5.61.60) bitty ttyp3 Jan 16 20:32 (76.19.99.242) bord ttyp5 Jan 14 11:10 (75.129.128.49:S.0) for example are running around on the same machine I am, and I'm aware of them, even though I don't know who they are. I can find out what some of them are doing: bord ttyp5 75-129-128-49.dhcp.fdul.wi Mon11AM 5:20 irc gburnore ttyp6 bastille.netbasix.net Fri10PM 29 rtin bord ttyp7 75-129-128-49.dhcp.fdul.wi Mon11AM 12:25 /usr/local/bin/ksh bord ttyp8 75-129-128-49.dhcp.fdul.wi Mon11AM 5:20 irc jkurck ttyp9 adsl-75-10-97-59.dsl.frs2c Fri02AM 12:25 -tcsh for example, but I'm not informed as to the semantics involved, only the protocols, the surface syntactics. So one might see codework as a mix of all of this, a kind of dirty or abject combination, a kind of rupturing, of surface and depth, one producing another or an other, a kind of drawing-out of the fecundity of the world and its structure, its poetics. This combination or drawing-out reflects the real unclarity of what I call the true world, which is the real and virtual world interpenetrated, intermingled, diffused, effused, as they are for us, no matter where we think we are, in first life or Second Life or what I call third sex, which is online sex, as if there were a first or second, which there aren't. Beyond this, I'm not sure what codework is, even though I've invented or discovered the term. Here is a program Florian Cramer wrote for me, called eliminate.pl (it's in perl): #!/usr/local/bin/perl5 while () { @words = split /[\s]+/, $_; @spaces = split /[\S]+/, $_; for ($x=0; $x <= $#words; $x++) { $word_count{$words[$x]}++; if ($word_count{$words[$x]} == 1) {print $words[$x],$spaces[$x+1]} } } This is based on the Thousand Character Essay, written in Chinese around fifteen hundred years ago - an essay in which each character is different from every other; each character, in a sense, is primordial, individuated - an extreme nominalism. Although I don't know Chinese, I worked with a friend laboriously translating it. Anyway, I wanted to duplicate this in English - use a program in which each instance of a word appears only once, that is, at its first (and only) appearance. Within this, the fol- lowing are still distinguished: "word" "Word" "Word," "word-" and so forth since these have different ascii renderings. Here is part of this very essay rendered with the program: my writing I write daily and when I'm not writing, thinking about or in another medium; the world is a of inscriptions. At one point believed there were signs, that was inhabited by signifiers which might have referents; now, after looking repeatedly at tantra casting-off whatever found impeded, think be nothing except residues kind frisson, rubbing up against itself. Whatever codes are, however these are manipulated - http://www.alansondheim.org/examples.txt they're only story, rather, they _are_ story but that's what's going on isn't all. We tend to make scripts things around us how we get along. For example, there's restaurant script (and this example course mine) enter I've never been before, know exactly what do; subscripts; don't it immediately would far too costly rely constructing, memory, reconstructing, so forth, eating together. And it's together, because scripts, like world, consensual build community. == Now this is at the beginning of the text, and clear, but see what happens towards the end: $word_count{$words[$x]}++;($word_count{$words[$x]} == 1) {print $words[$x],$spaces[$x+1]} }Thousand Character Essay, Chinese fifteen hundred years ago essay each character other; primordial, individuated extreme nominalism. Although Chinese, worked friend laboriously translating Anyway, wanted duplicate English use instance appears once, only) appearance. Within fol- lowing distinguished: "word" "Word" "Word," "word-" forth ascii renderings. rendered program: == Here, towards the end, the condensation is extreme. One might think of this in terms of the biblical book of Genesis - and one of the first things I did was to render Genesis with the program, which resulted, again, in a kind of _Vac,_ word-creation, creation-word of a primordial sort. I think of this as codework, since, reading it, it becomes clear quickly - what is happening, what the structure is - even if the code itself isn't present except as a disturbance upon another text, an other. This becomes clearer, perhaps, when the program is applied to itself: #!/usr/local/bin/perl5 while () { @words = split /[\s]+/, $_;@spaces /[\S]+/, for ($x=0; $x <= $#words; $x++) $word_count{$words[$x]}++;if ($word_count{$words[$x]} == 1) {print $words[$x],$spaces[$x+1]}} == Now I don't think of this as a 'better' example of codework than the first example, even though code is evident here; it's just another sub- ject for the performative maw. A point about interactivity: Every writing, wryting, upon reading or sensing, scenting, is always already interactive; the inscriptive is never _linear,_ no matter the appearance of lines. Memory, remembrance, is at work, scanning moves backwards and forwards, moves in chunks, and even syntax tends to jump about, leap. There is of course an active interactiv- ity, in which the reader/scenter is required to _do_ something concrete, within a repertoire or potential series of actions; hypertext is perhaps the simplest example. I've not been so interested in that, and my lack of interest has to do with worlds and the false appearance of choice; I'd rather have the running of inscription and meaning go on about without interruption, as the world goes on about one, even though one seems to have choice within it. This stems to some extent from my interest in film; I've never been carried so far in a hypertextual situation as I am when embedded in the cinematic other which is also the self, selving. The world is complex and I attempt to deal with that complexity and its perturba- tions, attempt to deal with the surface codes of the world. This isn't a manifesto on my part, and in fact, I've produced interactive work as well, particularly in simple Visual Basic, but I'd rather the interactivity occur elsewhere, within consciousness. Here are some links. First, to the most recent series of texts: http://www.alansondheim.org/pm.txt - here you'll find all sorts of things, from a report on an airline's first attempts at wireless en route to the derivation of 'bug' (as in software or computer bug), to the kinds of code early telegraph operators used, to... a google scraping piece on 'bush fucks' to... an elimination piece featuring my Facebook superwall. These texts are 'thicker' than many others, and they're stressed - we were mov- ing temporarily to West Virginia, and our companion cat of 18 years had to be put down, which was one of the most traumatic events of my life. At this point, pm.txt is somewhat diaristic, although most of it isn't. These are part of the Internet Text, which I've been writing since 1994, a continuous meditation on the above and other subjects. If you look at the earlier texts, for example: http://www.alansondheim.org/net1.txt - you'll find a clearer form of expo- sition than much of the later work. Since this is from 1994, the Net is very different, mostly what I call 'darknet,' referncing lower ascii and terminal windows as standard, instead of the current multi-mediacy. Almost from the beginning, I wrote through avatars, other characters, who really weren't other at all (see my file-in-progress, http://www.alansondheim.org/pn.txt - for an account of the research I'm doing in this direction). This is about it at the moment; as you can see, there are gaps, errors (which I'm interested in), disturbances, in the account. On another, an other, hand, we can proceed from here, I'm sure. And thanks for this opportunity - Alan, 01/19/08 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 21:45:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Hoerman Subject: Poetry Out Loud (Lowell, Mass.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline LOWELL HIGH SCHOOL ANNOUNCES POETRY OUT LOUD CONTEST WHAT: Lowell High School announces a school contest for Poetry Out Loud: National Recitation Contest. On February 6, 2008 at 3:00pm in the Freshman Academy Auditorium, Lowell High School students will compete to represent Lowell in a statewide Poetry Out Loud: National Recitation Contest. Poetry Out Loud is a creation of the National Endowment for the Arts and the Poetry Foundation, and administered in partnership with the State Arts Agencies of all 50 states and the District of Columbia. By encouraging high school students to memorize and perform great poems, Poetry Out Loud invites the dynamic aspects of slam poetry, spoken word, and theater into the English class. This exciting new program, which debuts in Lowell this year, helps students master public speaking skills, build self-confidence, and learn about their literary heritage. Lowell students will recite poems by Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Robert Frost, E. E. Cummings, Maya Angelou, Walt Whitman, and other poets. The Lowell competition will be judged by Melissa Pennell, UMass Lowell, and Stanley Hitron, Middlesex Community College. The top six students in the Lowell High School competition will receive $300 in prizes. The winner will advance to the Massachusetts Poetry Out Loud contest, co-sponsored by the Massachusetts Cultural Council and Huntington Theatre. Thirty-one cities and town in Massachusetts will compete to advance to the Poetry Out Loud National Finals on April 28-29 in Washington, DC, where $50,000 dollars in scholarships will be awarded. Poetry Out Loud is possible in Lowell thanks to the financial and administrative support of the City of Lowell, Lowell High School, Mogan Cultural Center, Cultural Organization of Lowell, United Teen Equality Center, UMass Lowell, Merrimack Repertory Theatre, and a host of volunteers. Suzanne Keefe was the lead teacher at Lowell High School. Lowell poets Joey Banh, Anthony Febo, Michael Hoerman, and Masada Jones, with UMass Lowell student Michael Gormley, led classroom visits and after school workshops. Charles Towers, Artistic Director at Merrimack Repertory Theatre, offered additional assistance. WHO: Featured speakers and participants will be: Master of Ceremonies: Anthony Febo Workshop leaders: Joey Banh, Anthony Febo, Michael Gormley, Michael Hoerman, and Masada Jones Judges: Melissa Pennell, English Chair, UMass Lowell; Stanley Hitron, English Chair, Middlesex Community College; Katie Dube, English teacher and Poetry Club Moderator, Lowell High School WHEN: Wednesday, February 6, 3:00 p.m. WHERE: Lowell Freshman Academy Auditorium, Paige Street OTHER: Attendance is free and open to the public. We invite you to come support our local teens and help make this event a success! # # # ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:20:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <47A7BD65.7060301@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Let's see, you're working with Bourdieu's concept of the =20 "field" (specifically, that of cultural production, itself located =20 within the field of power); but you're also working with a political "spectrum" (left-right), =20 apparently implying that relations in the field of power can simply be translated into the literary field without =20 refraction (which would not be Bourdieu's position); and then you also use language like "the interconnectedness of all =20 being and emotion"--if your Bourdieuvian account aims at being descriptive, this last phrase sounds pretty damn prescriptive.... ....this unstable (albeit heady!) mixture of sociology and polemic =20 suggests, to me, the perspective of someone who wishes to make an impact _within_ the field...does your work, elsewhere, aim at reflexivity? regards Nick ps--are you arguing that invocations of "the new" are necessarily, =20 transhistorically masculinist? What about the figure of the "New =20 Woman"? Were there no transgressive modernist women? Surely, to say such =20 women necessarily contended "in a masculine way" is to simply assume the adequacy of the very gender norms such women were critiquing.... > > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to =20 > tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by =20 > enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: =20 > to display one=92s disinterestedness in profit in order to display =20 > one=92s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display =20 > one=92s high mind via one=92s principled disgust at the sycophancy and = =20 > interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's =20 > supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the =20 > literary community. > > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of =20 > all being and emotion which speaks to the masculine privilege of =20 > =93anger=94 or =93being a jerk=94 as a mode of appropriating needs and = =20 > dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor =20 > masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the =20 > field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as =20 > intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw =20= > attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as =20 > =93the=94 origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the = =20 > host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck =20 > drivers. > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =93sacred heretic=94 = =20 > is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the =20 > tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not =20 > with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as =20 > a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan =20 > Kaufman=92s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, =20= > whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered =20 > by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and =20 > Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > -- V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 21:30:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Danielle Pafunda, this Wed., Columbia College Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please join us for the first event of our Spring Reading Series . . . DANIELLE PAFUNDA LECTURE: "Stunt Doubles, Companion Species, and the Lyric" Wednesday, February 6, 2008 (5:30 p.m.) Music Center Concert Hall 1014 South Michigan Avenue Free and open to the public For more information, call 312-344-8819 DANIELLE PAFUNDA is the Spring 2008 Visiting Poet-in-Residence at Columbia College Chicago. She is the author of two poetry collections, MY ZORBA (Bloof Books, 2008) and PRETTY YOUNG THING (Soft Skull Press, 2005), and the forthcoming chapbook A PRIMER FOR CYBORGS: THE CORPSE (Whole Coconut). She has been anthologized in the 2004, 2006, and 2007 editions of BEST AMERICAN POETRY, as well as in NOT FOR MOTHERS ONLY: CONTEMPORARY POETS ON CHILD-GETTING AND CHILD-REARING (Fence Books, 2007) and WOMEN POETS ON MENTORSHIP: EFFORTS AND AFFECTIONS (University of Iowa, 2008). Poetry, reviews, and essays appear in such publications as ACTION YES, CONJUNCTIONS, TRIQUARTERLY, and the GEORGIA REVIEW. She received a BA from Bard College, MFA in Poetry from New School University, and is currently a doctoral candidate in the University of Georgia Creative Writing Program. She is co-editor of the longstanding online literary journal LA PETITE ZINE, and a contributing curator at the new DELIRIOUS HEM. Her teaching and scholarly interests include 20th century American poetry, experimental poetry, gender theory, cultural and biocultural studies. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:28:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <47A7BD65.7060301@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just don't see where this idea can be productive. I think I =20 understand what you're saying, and I also seem to recall you saying =20 similar things before. But at the same time, any ideology, and don't =20 kid yourseelf that this position you've taken is above ideologies, =20 that in it's basis co-opts and subjugates any opposition as mere =20 confirmation of its own truth, which to my mind is what you're ding =20 by equating argumentation with the behavior you're speaking out =20 against, the masking of the interconnectedness of culture. it also =20 seems to me that you're denying agency and a multiplicity of =20 motivating factors to any possible opponents. If I disagree with you =20 and I like the role that the sacred heretic or outlaw genius plays in =20= our culture, it can't be for any of the reasons I do find such =20 antiheroes appealing, but is instead just my own petty self-=20 aggrandizement in service of my cultural power as a member of a =20 privileged group. What you've created is a closed system that brooks =20 no dissent, and that's not liberating anybody from any form of =20 oppression, it's just another mundane totalitarianism. Finally, and =20 most troublingly for me, your approach has implicit in it the =20 assumption that anyone playing the role of sacred heretic lack self =20 awareness of the station they're taking to the larger culture. You =20 seem to be saying that this is something adopted purely as a =20 commercial or political tactic and not as a legitimate engagement in =20 ones own world fully considered and selected for good reasons while =20 remaining aware of the many drawbacks that position holds. The reason =20= I find this particular line of thought disturbing is that denying =20 that your opponent has good reasons for doing what they do, and that =20 from their point of view a good case can be made for the rationality =20 of their actions, you are denying that those who disagree with you =20 have the ability to freely and authentically engage in the world as =20 they choose to given the possibilities presented to them by the =20 world. To deny that ability, to my mind, is to dehumanize a person, =20 and so, i have to ask, is this argument you're making not in the end =20 the same thing in its ends as the system that you are criticizing. Please let me know if I've misunderstood you, because as I said, I =20 find your position here to be very interesting. On Feb 4, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] > > Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, =20 > cultural criminal or sacred heretic. > > Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the =93angry =20 > outsider,=94 the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred =20= > transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the =20 > maverick, the criminal. To hang one=92s shingle as a disinterested =20 > shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To =20= > declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet-=20= > Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one=92s friends the apocalypse. > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to =20 > tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by =20 > enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: =20 > to display one=92s disinterestedness in profit in order to display =20 > one=92s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display =20 > one=92s high mind via one=92s principled disgust at the sycophancy and = =20 > interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's =20 > supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the =20 > literary community. > > This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external =20= > restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one=92s =20= > label on it. Iteration of the romantic =93single actor=94 or =93small =20= > cadre=94 theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all =20 > cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the =20 > badboy victim-transgressor author. > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of =20 > all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of =20 > =93anger=94 or =93being a jerk=94 as a mode of appropriating needs and = =20 > dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor =20 > masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the =20 > field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as =20 > intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw =20= > attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as =20 > =93the=94 origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the = =20 > host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck =20 > drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and =20 > wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a =20 > metaphor from Stan Apps: the =93transgressor=94 is a retail product =20= > that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. > > Common tactic: to tout what one does as =93shocking=94 or to start or =20= > further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked =20 > as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is =20= > ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and =20 > that one will be exonerated by history. > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =93sacred heretic=94 = =20 > is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the =20 > tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not =20 > with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as =20 > a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan =20 > Kaufman=92s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, =20= > whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered =20 > by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and =20 > Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 21:17:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Whitehead is pretty amazing and > I'm in the process of building up a huge archive of his audio > files. I can't wait to get home from work and look into the other > folks you mention. Whitehead has lots on the net. And there's lots that isn't there, too. One of my fave cassettes of his is "Writing on Air". This is a collection of short pieces, some of which are at http://www.ubu.com/sound/whitehead.html such as "The Problem With Bodies". I wrote a piece for EAR on some of that work, years ago. Also, I don't see "Phantom Pain" at Ubu. In the eighties, he developed short works but also longer works ranging from 15 minutes to an hour that he and Susan Stone were calling "cinema in the head". These were not radio dramas. A couple of examples on Ubu are "Dead Letters" and "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered", both of which are very strong works. I don't see many of his writings on the net. He's developed a whole poetics of radio/audio in both his writings and his work. The piece I wrote about his work concentrated on how one can 'read' his pieces either as referring to what they explicitly refer to or read them as being theoretical meditations on the art of sound. Another very strong poet/audio artist is Paul Green. I heard some of his work back when I was doing the radio show also. Check out http://www.culturecourt.com/Audio/PG/PGaudio.htm . If you scroll down a bit, you'll find "The Gestalt Bunker" and "Directions To The Dead End". He did these in the seventies. They've aged remarkably well. They work as well today as they did then. Perhaps even better. Digital writers will certainly find the figure in "Gestalt Bunker" familiar. And we all know the "Directions to the Dead End." Like Whitehead, Green is still at it. ja http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 01:40:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: Re: FRIDA WAS RED! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another better question might be, what is the difference between a = "lefty" and a "black shirt"? The Nazi were National Socialists. =20 That post was a joke, right? =20 Recently I=92ve come across diatribes such as this, linking the American Democratic party with fascism, peppered with misapplied historical = details such as =93socialism=94 being in the full title of the Nazi party, or Mussolini=92s youth as a socialist. I find the wielding of these details = an insult to our intelligence. We know that Nazi stands for =93National Socialist=94; we know about Mussolini=92s youth, and Hitler=92s = vegetarianism, and so on. We also know that democrats, anarchists, socialists, and = communists united=97disastrously, alas=97against the fascists in the Spanish Civil = War. If the division between the two were obvious enough to fight a war over = then, then is it anything other than Republican name-calling and bad faith sophistry to conflate the sides now? =20 To my mind, one of the place where Jonah Goldberg et al.=92s sophistry = of calling liberals fascists breaks down is in his ignorance of the first = word of the Nazi name: Nationalist. With that word, fascism defines itself = based on a mythology of the nation-state as the unifying principle of a = people, in which discrimination against, expulsion of, and even extermination of others=97as defined by that nation=92s leaders=97is not only permitted, = but encouraged. Leftist politics, on the other hand, with a belief in class-based identity, has always been internationalist: think =93Workers = of the World, Unite!=94 The real question for me is not how the American Democrats (who, except in rare instances, are hardly leftist at all) may have something in common with fascism, but how communist governments = have so readily turned fascist, glorifying the state as opposed to class as the unifier of the people. Stalin=92s actions selling out his side in the = Spanish Civil War are one example, as is the heralding of =93Socialism with = Chinese Characteristics=94 in post-Maoist China (talk about Nationalist = Socialism!), but so was the AFL-CIO=92s policy until recently of scapegoating = undocumented immigrants as a threat to unionized workers. The tendency towards = fascism, rather than the National Review=92s inane idea that we=92re already = there, is what we on the left really need to focus on, and root out, I think. =20 As for where politics and art do or don=92t stand separate, or whether I = can like the poetry of Pound or Neruda or Dante or Han Yu with all their political beliefs, I=92d like to posit that we can like any aesthetics = we like. I=92d also like to posit that we also have a responsibility to understand, and be critical of, the ways in which any aesthetic project = is related, implicitly or explicitly, to larger political and economic = forces we may like less. This is much harder than most readers have proven = willing to work, which is one of the reasons why I think it=92s so essential. =20 Lucas =20 =20 =20 =20 ________________________________________ =93La dur=E9e n=92est point le sort du solide.=94 =97Victor Segalen Lucas Klein LKlein@cipherjournal.com 216 Willow Street New Haven, CT 06511 ph: 203 676 0629 www.CipherJournal.com =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 22:52:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: FRIDA WAS RED! In-Reply-To: <004601c86785$64db15d0$0500a8c0@pacificdeqgc16> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit um, i'm not sure what i did to tick you off, but calling pound a fascist isn't hyperbole he actually was literally a fascist. he spent world war two in italy stumping for mussolini and spouting anti american propaganda on state radio. and this jonah goldberg guy sounds like he's playing mighty fast and loose with his drawing of parallels. New Deal democracy does not equal socialism does not equal nazism does not equal italian fascism does not equal modern progressive political ideals. the suggestion that they do smacks of the sort of right wing crankiness that's been rife in american conservatism ever since progressive ideals began taking a foothold during the first roosevelt administration and it was suggested that maybe letting the plutocratic tendencies of completely unregulated market economies run rampant over the rights of less powerful individuals wasn't such a grand idea after all. there's an element in the american right that isn't at all fascist but that believes as an article of faith that if the economy were just left alone and if government would just get out of its way and let the market function then everything would be hunky dory in a land of abundance where every man or woman with the right will to power can pull himself up by his bootstraps and make the world his oyster. that's a sadly naive view and its a shame that in this day and age the argumentum ad nazium is still considered a novel critique of the liberal idea that if one truly values the individual then one must recognize that all of us individuals are in this together, and some of us have it better from the get go that others, while others still are burdened with challenges and obstacles that no one reading this mailing list will ever have to overcome. The fact of the matter is that the fair and decent thing to do is to help a person up when they're on the ground, and that some people no matter how many times you pick them up, they're just going to topple over again. It doesn't mean we don't still owe it to them to hold out a hand when they need it. And that's the problem with conservatism, is that it equates the idea that we owe eachother more than staying out of eachothers way with some diminishing of the achievements of the highly economically successful. I don't think that's an obvious case at all. A rich family who pays more taxes than the poor family benefitting from those taxes is still better off than that poor family is ever likely to be. Wealth is no more a virtue than poverty is a sin, but in order to accept that someone who has been successful in the world doesn't have a greater responsibility to those who haven't been as well off, that's what you have to say. And that's another article of faith on the part of the right that they try to wriggle out of justifying by pointing out non sequiturs like hitler was a vegetarian and that totalitarian governments often provide expansive public services. It's just sophistry. Smoke and mirrors and legerdemain deployed in order to divert attention from the fact that what is being defended is really just a morally bankrupt and childishly selfish world view founded on avarice and schadenfreude. On Feb 4, 2008, at 3:26 PM, lanny quarles wrote: > What's the difference between me, a confirmed lefty, appreciating > a black shirt's poetry, and a wealthy conservative > appreciating Frida Kahlo's paintings? > > Another better question might be, what is the difference between a > "lefty" and a "black shirt"? The Nazi were National > Socialists. > Are you maybe just left-handed? Because you certainly don't > understand the detailed vicissitudes of the lie of human > "political theatre".. > > Look at Jonah Goldberg's book. I haven't, but then I don't need to. > Once you've noticed the bedsore called the copula > you don't need to look any further. Humanity is proof that God > exists, and that It is very stupid! > > > "Fascists," "Brownshirts," "jackbooted stormtroopers"-such are the > insults typically hurled at conservatives by their > liberal opponents. Calling someone a fascist is the fastest way to > shut them up, defining their views as beyond the > political pale. But who are the real fascists in our midst? > > Liberal Fascism offers a startling new perspective on the theories > and practices that define fascist politics. Replacing > conveniently manufactured myths with surprising and enlightening > research, Jonah Goldberg reminds us that the original > fascists were really on the left, and that liberals from Woodrow > Wilson to FDR to Hillary Clinton have advocated > policies and principles remarkably similar to those of Hitler's > National Socialism and Mussolini's Fascism. > > Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent > socialists (hence the term "National socialism"). They > believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated > inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public > education. They purged the church from public policy, promoted a > new form of pagan spirituality, and inserted the > authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. > The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, > euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided > generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a > strict racial quota system in their universities-where campus > speech codes were all the rage. The Nazis led the world in > organic farming and alternative medicine. Hitler was a strict > vegetarian, and Himmler was an animal rights activist. > > Do these striking parallels mean that today's liberals are > genocidal maniacs, intent on conquering the world and > imposing a new racial order? Not at all. Yet it is hard to deny > that modern progressivism and classical fascism shared > the same intellectual roots. We often forget, for example, that > Mussolini and Hitler had many admirers in the United > States. W.E.B. Du Bois was inspired by Hitler's Germany, and Irving > Berlin praised Mussolini in song. Many fascist > tenets were espoused by American progressives like John Dewey and > Woodrow Wilson, and FDR incorporated fascist policies > in the New Deal. > > Fascism was an international movement that appeared in different > forms in different countries, depending on the vagaries > of national culture and temperament. In Germany, fascism appeared > as genocidal racist nationalism. In America, it took a > "friendlier," more liberal form. The modern heirs of this "friendly > fascist" tradition include the New York Times, the > Democratic Party, the Ivy League professoriate, and the liberals of > Hollywood. The quintessential Liberal Fascist isn't > an SS storm trooper; it is a female grade school teacher with an > education degree from Brown or Swarthmore. > > These assertions may sound strange to modern ears, but that is > because we have forgotten what fascism is. In this angry, > funny, smart, contentious book, Jonah Goldberg turns our > preconceptions inside out and shows us the true meaning of > Liberal Fascism. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 11:33:44 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roy Exley Subject: Roy Exley - What do things mean? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We should take note of what Fernando Pessoa wryly and reductively wrote in = a poem in his collection =8CMensagem=B9. =20 Because the only hidden meaning of things =20 Is that they have no hidden meaning at all. This is stranger than all the strangenesses, And the dreams of all the poets, And the thoughts of all the philosophers- That things really are what they appear to be And that there is nothing to understand =20 Yes, here=B9s what my senses learned all by themselves: Things have no meaning =AD they have existence. Things are the only hidden meaning of things. =20 This is a bald acclamation of what Jacques Derrida came to call =8CThe Metaphysics of Presence=B9 where a given experience is simply just as it is and its meaning unaffected by its milieu. It might be argued that things only have the meanings that we impute them with and this process of imputin= g meaning inevitably dilutes their essence by re-inventing them on our own terms =AD based on our own fragmentary and polarised knowledge of them =AD and through our attempts to understand things we actually transform them throug= h our translations and consequently never achieve true knowledge of such things. To quote Martin Heidegger, =B3This knowledge, which does not need to exist, can exist only when the object exists. The object is what is essential; the knowledge of the object is inessential.=B2 [1]. If we translate this phenomenon into a paradigm for an understanding of the photographic process then the visual rather than the contextual becomes of primary importance, but, interestingly, as soon as we start to interpret a photographic image, its ontological essence as visual sign becomes diluted and transmuted, so that the =8Cding an sich=B9 (Kant=B9s =8Cthing in itself=B9) becomes irrevocably altered, inevitably assuming a new 'guise of convenience'.=20 Martin Heidegger=B9s Dasein (existence), like Kant=B9s ding an sich (the thing in itself), is ultimately an expression of something that is ineffable, which can not survive our understanding of it, and like all paradoxes, refuses to exist on any but its own terms, just as our experience of music always eludes objective description, or our experience of heat cannot be translated into a mathematical equation, so the thing in itself lies beyond description. As we look at and perceive something we process it as a contingency, we manipulate it so that it can be subsequently accommodated b= y out cognitive processes. This =8Clook=B9 is an all important interface with the world and according to Maurice Merleau-Ponty, =B3The look, envelops, palpates, espouses, the visible things. As though it were in a relation of pre-established harmony with them, as if it knew them before knowing them, it moves in its own way with its abrupt and imperious style and yet the views taken are not desultory =AD I do not look at a chaos, but at things =AD s= o that finally one cannot say if it is the look or if it is the things that command=B2 [2]. So, how relevant are Fernando Pessoa's observations relevant for poetry today? Pessoa wrote with great insight and intelligence, he was possessed of considerable originality, and must be considered a giant among modern European poets. =20 1] ] Martin Heidegger Hegel=B9s Phenomenology of Spirit [Trans. Parvis Emad & Kenneth Maly], Indiana University Press, Bloomington, 1994. Page 67. =20 2] Maurice Merleau-Ponty, The Visible and the Invisible [Trans. Alphons= o Lingis], Northwestern University Press, Evanston,Ill, 1968, Page 133= . =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 09:21:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <47A7BD65.7060301@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Gabriel, I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your comment on =20= some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with =20 this. =46rom past correspondence with you I suspect that one person in =20= the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all of =20 this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well as =20 how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics that =20= you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry =20 outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine gesture. =20 Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these particular =20 poets' work. Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in =20 possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at least =20 as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've =20 criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree with =20 them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and see a =20= little Hell on earth. H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable =20 pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective ideas. =20 And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. Franklin, =20 Gilbert & Gubar. If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] > > Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, =20 > cultural criminal or sacred heretic. > > Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the =93angry =20 > outsider,=94 the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred =20= > transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the =20 > maverick, the criminal. To hang one=92s shingle as a disinterested =20 > shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To =20= > declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet-=20= > Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one=92s friends the apocalypse. > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to =20 > tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by =20 > enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: =20 > to display one=92s disinterestedness in profit in order to display =20 > one=92s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display =20 > one=92s high mind via one=92s principled disgust at the sycophancy and = =20 > interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's =20 > supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the =20 > literary community. > > This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external =20= > restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one=92s =20= > label on it. Iteration of the romantic =93single actor=94 or =93small =20= > cadre=94 theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all =20 > cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the =20 > badboy victim-transgressor author. > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of =20 > all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of =20 > =93anger=94 or =93being a jerk=94 as a mode of appropriating needs and = =20 > dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor =20 > masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the =20 > field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as =20 > intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw =20= > attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as =20 > =93the=94 origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the = =20 > host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck =20 > drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and =20 > wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a =20 > metaphor from Stan Apps: the =93transgressor=94 is a retail product =20= > that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. > > Common tactic: to tout what one does as =93shocking=94 or to start or =20= > further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked =20 > as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is =20= > ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and =20 > that one will be exonerated by history. > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =93sacred heretic=94 = =20 > is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the =20 > tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not =20 > with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as =20 > a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan =20 > Kaufman=92s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, =20= > whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered =20 > by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and =20 > Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ JP Craig http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 09:01:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: masculinity and the fetish of newness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murat, I basically agree with you that these issues involve issues of power beyond just gender. But what I'm focusing on here is gender. Its relations to power dynamics in the literary community need to be underscored. So, that's the scope of my few posts thus far on my blog. Pierre Bourdieu's /The Field of Cultural Production/ provides precisely the kind of analysis you suggest. And he does it brilliantly. But he does not -- and I think this is the glaring error in PB's brilliant book -- focus one little tiny bit on gender relations in the field of cultural production -- and these to me are almost *total.* We need more work about how gender inflects, refracts and reshapes power in literary culture. Gender and power in literary culture is probably the most basic issue, hands down, to any responsible understand of consecration dynamics. Hands down. Gabe Then Murat said: The alienation you are referring to goes far beyond specific sexual distinctions and has its roots in the relationships of power in general. It may have to do with class, with international real politics, as well as sexual dynamics. In each case, one side imposes its values, its epistemology, its standards of excellence and achievement on others, making the other side more or less invisible or quartered, in other words, alienated from itself. To focus only on a sexual dynamic, making it THE cause, alienates the others whose alienation derives from other factors. For instance, a father in Iraq who can not get a job or loses a child (boy or girl) to a bomb is as alienated as the mother who lost the child. Alienation is caused by a lack of access to means of communication (an enforced silence), as much as a lack of access to the means of production. I agree with you, for instance, that Picasso's art will be seen from a very different angle if its misogyny -turning a number of his "great" paintings into sadistic erections- were not underplayed under the rubric of art. On the other hand, the distinctions between The School of Quietitude and Avant and further between Avant and Post Avant began to shape the discussions of poetry basically through Ron Silliman's Blog. I think Ron would intensely resent, and I assume rightly so, to be called misogynous. Having come to The United States more than forty years ago, I have always been intensely conscious of the cultural, stylistic, philosophical differences alienating me from the place I had entered. It was assumed all I had to do was "to educate" myself into it. (Had I not come to Amherst to get an education?) I refused to do so. The rest of my life has been to use American English to heal this alienation. But is this not what all poets, particularly in The United States, do? To see this essential process only as a struggle between masculinity and femininity forces is I think to deny visibility to many other energies shaping the poetic process. Ciao, Murat On Feb 4, 2008 11:52 AM, Gabriel Gudding <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > David, > > Yes, you did misread me. > > My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics > around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to > "disappear" women from a variety of literary scenes. As it happens few > women do peek through from the earlier era you mention 80-90 years ago: > Djuna Barnes, Natalie Barney, Gertrude Stein, Jane Heap, Margaret > Anderson, H. D., and, as you mention, Mina Loy. Others more > knowledgeable than I have argued that even to be legible as women, these > writers had to contend in a masculinized way. > > Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a > vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG > fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the "new" > is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine. I think > principally here of the more recent writings of Diane di Prima and > Rachel Blau DuPlessis re these issues. And as both of them read this > list from time to time, I'll not go to speaking for them. I would only > repeat again that within the AG fields (fields that especially fetishize > the new) there seems to be a *worse* track record regarding women. > > Both Ed Brunner and Michael Davidson have cast a pretty cold eye on > masculinity in cold war poetics -- Brunner on more bourgeois writers, > Davidson more AG. I like what Davidson says to sum up how the field > functions: "Citing masculinity...is to cite zones of power. A corollary > proposition might be that citing female masculinity cites fissures in > zones of power." (Guys Like Us, 195). > > You mention Solanas. Her SCUM Manifesto is precisely about masculinity. > Its purpose is less to create a rupture in masculinity than to frame an > already bankrupt and ruptured mode. Either way, Davidson seems to be > right. My point is that you don't get a lot of guys talking about the > /new/ while also talking about how it's inflected by masculinity. And if > one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with > peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out. > > Closest one gets in v recent days to a /new/-affiliated manifesto that > tries to make legible its own gendered nature is the *New Sincerity* > movement and manifesto from a few yrs ago -- which was promptly derided > precisely in hyper-masculinized terms as not being "rigorous" and > intellectual enough. > > I am aware that flaff has an R in it. > > Finally, I would add that the fetish of the "new" is homologous with > masculinity in general and no political aesthetics in particular: it's > something given to both right and left poles of the field of cultural > production -- and it almost always appears with the mythos of the > "badboy genius shaman" lurking not too far away. > > My point is that it seems finally necessary perhaps to cease thinking > via the nominally supplied terms that a whole tradition encourages -- > that of, in this case, the idea of the "first or fresh beginning," a > myth associated with some, usually male, "creator shaman badboy" types. > All of which is so very very high school. High school and harmful. > > It's shocking to me how faithful poets (both male and female) remain to > such a thoroughly unexamined and weirdly heinous series of myths about > production. My sense is that it is only through ceasing to reinvest in > these gendered ideas and tactics that poets will actually wake up from > what amounts to a pretty thorough alienation from their own work and > lives -- alienation both from the material realities inherent in the > field of production, not to mention the world around them. > > Best, > Gabriel > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > David Harrison Horton wrote: > > Gabriel, > > > > Anyway, below is the response to your post I sent to the Buffalo list > tonight. Please read it as a real request for clarification on your position > when it posts. David Harrison Horton > > > > > > From: [log in to unmask]: [log in to unmask]: RE: > masculine "new"???Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:56:07 -0800 > > > > > > Gabriel, How are you differentiating the "masculine" drive to > self-declare avant with the obvious parallel activities of women such as > Mina Loy (Feminist Manifesto, 1914) and Valerie Solanas (Scum Manifesto, > 1968)? Are their declarations different? Perhaps more valid? What about > women who self-declare avant or L=A=N=G or whatever? Or is this an > assumption/assertion that avant status necessarily equals male privilege? I > don't mean to be quippy here, but I would like you to expand your discussion > on the subject.In your list of examples of "masculine" avants: New > FormalismLangpo PostmodernPost Avant / AVAnd More Recent and Ephemeral > VariantsFlaff (flarf?)New Brutalism It seems that you are conveniently > ignoring scores of women who are not only affiliated with said poetic > stances/social relationships, but who are also key figures in said. Did I > read you completely wrong? PS. Yes, Flarf has an R. No, I am not affiliated. > Best,David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot.com > > > >> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:47:55 -0600> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: > on declaring oneself "new"> To: [log in to unmask]> > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > > > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now! > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail(R)-get > your "fix". > > http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx > -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 07:46:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry//Internet outage in Mid East In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Jim and Jason: I think you have misunderstood and to a good part overlooked a number of things i wrote of. i did suggest some journals and certainly wrote about enough artists and their work, ideas, regarding writing for the voice--kinds of editings, splicings, techniques, notations, scores, the relationship with Visual Poetry-- i am not sure how you missed this-- i also suggested some techniques and equipments that can easily be found and worked with which to create one's own mobile studios as it were-- i realize what the difficulty is--which is that you want to focus on a very narrow sliver of the spectrum and as usual i am trying to say there is a great deal more there already as well as NOW going on that can be continually studied and learned from, worked with--it is the quality of the ideas and artistic expressions, not simply the audiophile quality that is perhaps of more interest to me, as well as the extensions of these into the world at large as sound recording is used in the areas of surveillance, eavesdropping, questions of the legal system, Justice, the international web and its monitoring and being cut off as methods of control to find ways to counter with other methods of recording-- hopefully these ideas will help others find their ways to the much larger arena one enters in thinking about the historical development of Sound Poetry since Italian Futurism, and the inter relationships of Sound recordings and transmissions which have on the hand the explorations via manipulations and splicing etc of tapes in the 1950's of Henri Chopin and on the other hand,--all through the century the development by the military so beloved of the Italian Futurists of their own methods of recording and transmissions and the influence of these on propaganda as well as advertising and commercial and avant-garde works-- (i mention below the works of Virilio and Adorno in this regard--) Sound Poetry moves among the "Grain of the Voice" and those areas of sounds all around one that can be used as elements in a composition-- al of these areas as i see as being part of Sound Poetry--because one is dealing in sounds of voices as they are recorded, transmitted, altered, mistranslated and the like--and i mean sounds, not just words--as sound go beyond words, the limits of words-- Sonar is a form of sound recoding--"the Songs of the Humpback Whale"--remember, a huge hit at one point, recorded with then very sophisticated means-- as well as the mysterious ability of the new chinese submarines to elude the Sonar devices of American ships-- all these things are involved with questions of sound and recording and their possiblities of use as Sound Poetry in relation with the sounds of the human voice-- (remember the piece Stockhausen wrote in which there is a scoring for a robot as well as human voices? before i go further i'd like to point out that something i have written of before quite a bit re the dangers/possibilities of the Internet being disconnected deliberately or accidently is happening again right now, on a very massive scale-- that is the disconnecting of the Internet from very large areas--in this case most of the Mid East except for israel and iraq--which causes immense problems in the world financial markets that are hooked up with places like Dubai, billions of dollars in transactions a day, and has also led to fears that some kind of event might be planned to take place while Internet communications are cut off from these areas-- Internet failure hits two continents - CNN.com http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/31/dubai.outage/index.html --- Three Internet Cables Slashed in a Week: Has Iran lost all Internet Connectivity?http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7987 --- as happened in Rwanda and happens in Gaza for some time now and in other areas of the world in which the internet is shut down while behind the scenes massacres and clampdowns go on--Burma is another recent example i have cited-- i have also been studying the released documents of the pentagons plans for Internet warfare, treating the Internet as an enemy-- to address the issues of the studio and the "signal/noise": a great deal of what i wrote about had to do with people who worked in studios Jim--which i cited as working in terms of "Laboratories"-- i'll write a bit here abt my own experiences with sound recording and video work and film--as i have a long time familiarity with these procedures of editing, composing for tape, for studio and the like--both in terms of studying the history and ideas involved and doing-it-yourself-- The artists i discuss , especially henri chopin, as i wrote in my post, were already doing all of the things you bring up in the 1950's--splicing, manipulating, working in the studio, composing for a recording rather than "live" documentary works--the 1950's was the beginning of the great eras of experiment and exploration of what could be done with the new instrument, the tape recorder--and the human vhoice, the oldest instrument-- for an essay by, essays about, a bio and visual poetry covers and images of henri Chopin's OU journal: http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/01/henri-chopin-individual-sound-poetry.html--- for the 14 pp Traverse-published Visual Poetry notations of my ZERO POEM with link to the Fluxuations CD on line it is on so you can see a very basic DIY aspect-- http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2007/02/dorian-ribas-marinhozero-poem.html--- i think you misunderstand my take on the technology--and its relationship with "avant-garde"-- and what might be called "audiophile recordings"-- i say at the end of my piece i hope soon to be able to work with more tools as some friends here and there have access to various low level forms of recording boards etc-- i have done splicing of tapes since high school as ways of showing how one can produce "fake documents"-- later on wd alter the "reality studio" by simply cutting and splicing tapes, overdubbing off of using three tape recorders--and these just boom boxes and a hand held journalist's recorder i have which is very good-- the same with video and film stock, cutting, splicing, "writing for the camera" or the recorder--this has been being done for a very long time--i've done it myself and worked in studios--in making films and videos, as well as on my own with super 8 mm. my point is that too often there can be a confusing of the "cutting edge" of "technology" with the development of "cutting edge ideas" in the "avant-garde"--as i wrote, historically a great deal of the avant-garde has emerged from next to nothing in the way of materials and the most basic of technological equipments-- i audited with his permission a class Nam June Paik gave at MIT in video work--Nam June Paik used basically tvs hauled in from the street and junk stores--and various kinds of magnets at the time--i remember experimenting with using degaussing machines to increase distortions--by today's standards the equipment used was very primitive and limited--yet what mattered is the development of the ideas in working with the materials--the whole concept of "fast random action" could be easily explored by ceaseless viewing and altering of Boston Bruins hockey games broadcast on Boston tv channels-- also got to spend a day once working with john Cage on recordings done randomly and operated by random procedures, broadcast in a basketball court gymansium and responded with by the merce Cunnnigham dancers-- i've been in professional recording studios of record companies from NYC to Paris, Sugar Hill records in New Jersey, (my brother worked as a stage builder/designer for break dancers and was employed by Grandmaster Flash at one point, so got to learn a lot about his methods in and out of the studio) studios i in Copenhagen, Boston and Milwaukee-- and have seen/heard in performance many of Sound Poets i mentioned as well as many others not mentioned--Bob Cobbing, Paul Dutton, Jaap Blonk, Clemente Padin--and worked on projects with Clemente and spontanenous ones with bob Cobbing-- so it is not as though i don't have experience and knowledge of many aspects of these procedures and not as though i didn't write of them in my last letter in regards to the work being done by Chopin and others since the 1950's-- again, there is an artistic investigation of technology going on which may be conducted using machines and equipment now considered "primitive," yet the ideas in the work continue to inspire person working today who have access to arrays of possibilities that were science fiction at the time-- i think what you are overlooking is this aspect--the ideas involved, the history of the kinds of notations, writing for the studio, the uses of the direct inclusion of the performance space's acoustic possiblities in both composition and recording and a great many other issues-- i wrote that one may study what chopin and a great many others have been doing for fity years now and find all the ideas one is talking about still--if they sound poorer in quality--burroughs' own tapes for example wdn't qualify for any audiophile kudos--it is simply that they are from a different era and using technologies which have since been superseded in sound quality--that they don't have the purity of sound of today's digitalized "evacuated" technologies do--shdn't be found to be an impediment to essaying an understyanding of what is being done inthe work itself-- as i suggest in the letter one may now purchase some very high quality sound equipment capable of an incredibly wide range of work very easily--radio shack, for example, army navy surplus-- what has always interested me--as it did burroughs--is that the technoglies may be used and are used--quite immediately for purposes that are locked in a battle between setting up codes and undermining them--going through or around them--a battle of ideas which is attacked with the full force of war becuase that is precisely what it is--information wars, propaganda wars, advertising wars, the "reality studio" wars-- in the examples i used one has on the one hand the super high tech of the world's most enormous and enormously funded military and surveilance agencies and on he other the "insrugency" methods of Al-Queda which made use of disposable cell phones that were linked via seriesof hookups including staelties to communicate acorss large distances from the midst of a continaul onsluaght of bombings and attacks-- each time one syetem is built, another will be imagined and constructed to attmept its subversion-- these also are sutdio produced works with "written for studio" messages of sounds--just as the miliatary makes use of sounds transmitted in all osrts of mideia at all sorts of frequencies to cause ppsychological breakdown or even the shaking down of walls--(Burroughs himself wrote and spoke of the latter use of low wave frequencies)-- you write that burroughs says a splice creats a leakage for the future--yes--but whose future?--burroughs is aware of this and trying to alter the future which the nova mob has in store-- the question of a studio becomes altered also due to the high quality of the recording equipment now available--the intermixing of "real" and "fake" is done seamlessly--so that a studio really becomes mobile--not a specific site at all--but one that is able to be quickly transported to another "safe house"--or, simply doing one's work in the midst of things, on the street, on a park bench--"hidden in plain sight/sound"-- one can create events which never happened and which alter drastically the events which are predicated on them and follow them-- i don't know if youhave ever seen Brian di Plama's film BLOWOUT?--itis al about the splicing of sounds that have been recorded and trying to match them up with frames of a film--and then in the ened the recorded real sounds, which are prevented from being used as "evidence" against powerful indiviiduals, wind up becoing the screams of a woman in a slasher film-- another film of the 1970's devoted to sound recording is The Conversation directed by Francis Ford Coppola-- rmember the famous missing 18 minutes in the Nixon Watergate Tapes?-- what i have been trying to write of is that al these methods have been being investigated and thought about for quite some time now--in relation with the uses of recorded sound and images, their juxaptositions and editings, as well as writing for the recorder, scripts and notations, scores that are aimed solely at being recordings, not at all "doucmenatry" of life events, but things one is able to do only in the studio or at an editing table-- i think before dismsissing the older work due to sound quality, one needs to find out what it is the persons are doing, what are the ideas, what are the notations they used--is their work in the particular case a "written for the studio" piece or not--there needs to be more inquiry before making snap or snappy judgments, drawing generalized ideas-- henri chopin, bob cobbing, philadelpho menezes, the Lettristes, the Swedish groups of the sixties, many many more--since the beginings of the use of the tape recorder as an instrument in itself to be writtern for or scored for, composed with, played with--i think al these artists' works need to be studied and receive the recongition for their ideas and experiments, theories, manifestos, demonstrations, recordings, conferences--there is a vast history there which if one begins to study and listen, opens up a great many ideas that can be developed on in further and other ways using the new equipment-- also with the tehcnological one needs to keep in mind those forms which are indpendent so to speak--things which can be battery powered for example--as opposed to the dependence on the plug in connections--as this news from the Mid east makes clear--and this report on the Pentagon's plans for internet war-- to me the positive aspects of technology are the guerrila forms of it--which burroughs investigated very much--and which have gone on since the invention of the new techonoglies-- the very first 20th century avant-garde, Italian futurism, proclaimed the love of machines and war, "the world's hygiene"--the Futurists were exploring the uses of film, photgrpahy, aa new architectural urbaism, and sound/noise before World War 1. Their intense focus on speed and dynamism they saw clearly to be connected with the technological advances of the automobile, the airplane, the ne forms of machine guns, tanks, aeiral reconaissance and the production of immensely loud industrial and military sounds. The Futurists invented a great many new instruments and wrote manifestos on the uses of noise. In their work one finds the first open embrace of the dual miliitary and artistic meanings of the term "avant-garde." Paul Virilio has written a great many superb books on art, aesthetics, technology and the military-- the Nazis were the first to explore the uses of the media for propaganda--Adorno has some excellent essays on the use of tones of voice on the radio to evoke emotions and control their directions ideological by the sound of a voice, its intonations and pitch, in simply pronouncing a word-- and then strings of words which go to forming a "totalizing" mind set which one is taught to obey and which shapes the will to the directions given by commands--of Authority figures in whatever realm one is tuned into at the moment it is not different really from American television, which disguises propaganda frequently as infotainment mixing with "news" "stories" that are as carefully composed as any poem-- as i wrote i hope this year to be working with higher quality equipment for sound poetry than i have so far, although the sound i have recorded is pretty good for what it is-- ------------------------------ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. 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Learn more. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 17:17:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <47A7BD65.7060301@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline gabe, i had been wondering what role the poet plays and why one would ask such a question in the first place. what is the role of the poet. what kind of question is that. what is the role of the contemplative. havent read an explanation that is reasonable on that one. but if being reasonable doesnt matter too much, then youre off and running. one interesting thing for me is that your discussion is couched in terms of critical praxis, which i am entirely rusty at, but i guess the problem for me with such a praxis is it dissects things from the outside. sometimes this is very interesting but i dont and probably never have seen what it has to do with poetry. so. i mean, when asked why a poem is a sonnet rather than free verse, the poet is allowed to say, - because i like it that way. - because it suits, because it is true, yes, but also because that is what the poet liked, that is there is a notion of loyalty implicit in the truth value, as also i think in values of freedom. in the same way, if you end up getting to be the cowboy way out ahead of the herd, and my grandfather was a cowboy in his youth and so this is not pretention on my part, but if you get to do that work, it is ok to say this is my work just because i like it that way, because this is the world i see, this is what is true. it is also ok to try and find out what that means rather than trying to spin gold from imaginary assumptions without the slightest bit of evidence in real terms. this world from the outbound is worth trying to talk to. and the ringing ironies in such a position are painful indeed, how badly one measures against the smoke once a candle is gone. one thing about fabricating histories from smoke that have no concrete grounding in actual fact, is that i think you have to translate them into some kind of abstract critique. because in embodied, everyday terms, they WILL NOT hold water. how fun to destroy a beautiful truth and make it something ugly as though it never existed in the first place. in cyberspace, you can do anything, if you dont care if your world becomes a fake cartoon. some peoples lives are so microengineered it is truly heartbreaking. well a bug in amber cant do anything about it but, think, one of the things about the lists scapegoat submissions, which were delayed when fred was so very ill, was the kind of spectacle and gratification generated by the pariah. i wonder if anyone can write a poem about a society without pariahs, wirthout your favorite persecutee, after all, dont the persecuted secretly enjoy it? isnt there some secret masochism god given to every returning sadist who cant admit a mistake. i wonder if there are any poems about avenging a fathers death out there, or about nice, intimate; but not too time-consuming conversations with shotguns. - he needed killin - used to work just fine in court in the west. without my library i cant add speculations about H.D. or others right now, i would have to look up the details, some of you do just fine without your library. sorry. just offhand i would say that pounds line including -- we grub the soft fern shoots -- has such depth and sensitivity to his subject. it grieves me to find that lacking so often in discussions. it does, it always will. as if, again, the object position is one which enjoys persecution and silencing. no so, colleagues, not at all, of course. but the obvious and the unremarked are not the same thing in this case. what is the world -- who is in the world -- how can we heal the world -- these are important questions, like asking who is God and how can we know. those questions take years and years to even begin. and henri nouwen is indeed the rilke in the background somewhere in those words. ... who a fellow poet is, strikes me as not terribly interesting, especially when it is so much more interesting just to sit and take a look around. who each poet is, it just strikes me as not that interesting. speck of dust kind of thing. there are just a lot more important problems. thinking about eternal things goes well on caol ila whiskey or orval trappist ale in this cold, if you ask me. the cold here is just fine by me. be well. my 2 cents heidi On Feb 5, 2008 2:35 AM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] > > Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, cultural > criminal or sacred heretic. > > Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the "angry outsider," the > untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred transgressor, the > misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the maverick, the criminal. To > hang one's shingle as a disinterested shaman. To declare oneself the > Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To declare oneself the Angry Righteous > Disinterested Transgressing-yet-Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare > one's friends the apocalypse. > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to tout > oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by enacting ritual > sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: to display one's > disinterestedness in profit in order to display one's purity of intent > and pure devotion to the art; to display one's high mind via one's > principled disgust at the sycophancy and interdependent nature of the > field; to make a show of one's supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy > of defiance toward the literary community. > > This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external > restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one's > label on it. Iteration of the romantic "single actor" or "small cadre" > theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all cultural work, > or at least that work that went into making the badboy > victim-transgressor author. > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of all > being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of "anger" or > "being a jerk" as a mode of appropriating needs and dealing with > perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor masks this > collective history and suppresses his connection to the field of > production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as intellectual > spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw attention away > from that masking, making it easier to be touted as "the" origin rather > than one result of the entire work done by the host of beings in that > field from readers to reviewers to truck drivers. This is a ready made > author type whose vogue waxes and wanes but is overall adopted > surprisingly frequently. To borrow a metaphor from Stan Apps: the > "transgressor" is a retail product that one buys and then pretends one > found at Goodwill. > > Common tactic: to tout what one does as "shocking" or to start or > further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked as > rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is > ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and that one > will be exonerated by history. > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the "sacred heretic" is > used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the tactic as > a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not with any one > flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as a basis for > anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan Kaufman's The Outlaw > Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, whereas more moderate and > even reactionary aesthetics are covered by the anthologies Legitimate > Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New > Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 12:25:57 -0400 Reply-To: david@badnoiseproductions.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Applegate Subject: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello! I'm excited to see such an interest in sound / audio poetry. Despite all historical practitioners, it seems to be a field which remains almost wide-open in terms of possibilities. The work I've been engaged in for the past several years might better be described as "noise poetry" than sound or audio poetry since it foregrounds unexpected sounds, distortion & extreme manipulation of the voice through electric effects. I'm posting here because I'd like to share a recording of a performance I gave some time ago. All the sounds you'll hear are my voice + electricity... Thanks for listening... (http://www.badnoiseproductions.com/sounds/Mr.SoundBoyKing.mp3) -David www.badnoiseproductions.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 02:02:38 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Danny Snelson Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline glad to see this exchange -- jason, the most interesting question of yr post, i think, remains unanswered in a big way -- what journals / means of distribution are there for this material? i can understand yr frustration with the mountain of sound poetry recordings on the colossal archives -- much of wch is hermetic / embedded in a discourse next to impossible to access.. . david -- i love yr post & read it eagerly for there is much by way of this material that was only distributed hard copy before some growing interested parties were around (myself included -- wherein there is only the internet). you offered some more links -- PLEASE DO -- what means of distribution to you now see as vital to innovative sound / vocal / poetic work? re: LO FI HI FI -- maybe where much of this extends into other nominal entities? -- say, extended vocal technique by artists like joan la barbara on down -- DIAMANDA GALAS is a hifi operatic sound poet? -- robert ashley has a voice. & i agree, jim, radio / transmissions artists are doing some of the most interesting things in this realm. > > Whitehead is pretty amazing and > > I'm in the process of building up a huge archive of his audio > you can see some tracks i recently segmented / compiled for pennsound HERE-- i'm corresponding with gregory to get more of this material up on the servers in the weeks to come so stay tuned! (he latest work indeed is astounding) -- most interesting, you can hear gregory's take on his art from a live reading he gave at segue recently. he is an excellent writer. wireless imagination (a text made w/ douglas kahn) & the entangled webs of radio / communications theory is particularly interesting from this sound poet back-track, i think. a lot of the most recent material in the realm is shuffled by the good people at free103point9 in brooklyn. but that returns to, i think, the more pressing question of changes in dissemination. gregory mostly records for BBC but also releases on small labels or with galleries. & there was TELLUS(we've put a number of newly digitized items online recently), but more interestingly, there once were networks of cassette exchange. you question, somewhat bizarrely to my ears, jason, if there are cd-r zines! aren't cd-rs obsolete with digital network exchange? where, david, jim, or those plugged in, do you get the most interesting material now? bang for my buck (time dollar) are the music blogger sharity pages clustered around totally fuzzy. continuo , closet of curiosities , (the immense archive at) mutant sounds -- for on hand immediate examples -- constantly upload interesting sound poetry works from all around here & then -- many of wch (ANNE GILLIS, for examplary) blur in the ways this strain prods towards. some words but still at a loss -- an OU styled digital update i don't kno of. maybe in europe (david?).. . this is interesting & happy to read thru bear on. (always up for back channel shares!) yrs, danny Whitehead has lots on the net. And there's lots that isn't there, too. One > of my fave cassettes of his is "Writing on Air". This is a collection of > short pieces, some of which are at http://www.ubu.com/sound/whitehead.html > such as "The Problem With Bodies". I wrote a piece for EAR on some of that > work, years ago. Also, I don't see "Phantom Pain" at Ubu. In the eighties, > he developed short works but also longer works ranging from 15 minutes to > an > hour that he and Susan Stone were calling "cinema in the head". These were > not radio dramas. A couple of examples on Ubu are "Dead Letters" and > "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered", both of which are very strong > works. > > I don't see many of his writings on the net. He's developed a whole > poetics > of radio/audio in both his writings and his work. The piece I wrote about > his work concentrated on how one can 'read' his pieces either as referring > to what they explicitly refer to or read them as being theoretical > meditations on the art of sound. > > Another very strong poet/audio artist is Paul Green. I heard some of his > work back when I was doing the radio show also. Check out > http://www.culturecourt.com/Audio/PG/PGaudio.htm . If you scroll down a > bit, > you'll find "The Gestalt Bunker" and "Directions To The Dead End". He did > these in the seventies. They've aged remarkably well. They work as well > today as they did then. Perhaps even better. Digital writers will > certainly > find the figure in "Gestalt Bunker" familiar. And we all know the > "Directions to the Dead End." > > Like Whitehead, Green is still at it. > > ja > http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky2 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 12:43:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: erica kaufman Subject: Tuesday 2/12 @ Belladonna*--Cole & Robinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline ZW5qb3kKCkJFTExBRE9OTkEqCgp3aXRoCgpCYXJiYXJhIENvbGUgJiBFbGl6YWJldGggUm9iaW5z b24KClR1ZXNkYXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDEyLCA3OjMwUE0gKGRvb3JzIGF0IDdQTSkKQCBEaXhvbiBQ bGFjZQooMjU4IEJvd2VyeSwgMm5kIEZsb29y4oCUQmV0d2VlbiBIb3VzdG9uICYgUHJpbmNlKQpB ZG1pc3Npb24gaXMgJDUgYXQgdGhlIERvb3IuCgpCYXJiYXJhIENvbGUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgaGVyIE0u QS4gaW4gUG9ldHJ5IGZyb20gVGVtcGxlIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgYW5kIGhlciBQaC5ELgppbiBQb2V0 aWNzIGZyb20gdGhlIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgYXQgQnVmZmFsby4gU2luY2UgMjAwMCwgc2hlIGhhcyBi 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biBmb3IgY3JlYXRpdml0eQphcyB3ZWxsIGFzIGFuIGludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgbW9kZWwgZm9yIHRo ZSBvcGVuIGV4cGxvcmF0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSBwcm9jZXNzIG9mCmNyZWF0aW9uLgoKKmRlYWRseSBu aWdodHNoYWRlLCBhIGNhcmRpYWMgYW5kIHJlc3BpcmF0b3J5IHN0aW11bGFudCwgaGF2aW5nIHB1 cnBsaXNoLXJlZApmbG93ZXJzIGFuZCBibGFjayBiZXJyaWVzCkJlbGxhZG9ubmEqIHJlYWRpbmdz IGhhcHBlbiBtb250aGx5IGJldHdlZW4gU2VwdGVtYmVyIGFuZCBKdW5lLiBXZSBhcmUKZ3JhdGVm dWwgZm9yIGZ1bmRpbmcgYnkgUG9ldHMgYW5kIFdyaXRlcnMsIENMTVAsIE5ZU0NBLCBhbmQgRGl4 b24gUGxhY2UuCgotLSAKKioqCiJ0aGVyZSBpcyBvbmx5IHNlZWluZyBhbmQsIGluIG9yZGVyIHRv IGdvIHRvIHNlZSwgb25lIG11c3QgYmUgYSBwaXJhdGUiCgogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfmthdGh5IGFja2VyCgoqKioKd3d3LmJlbGxhZG9ubmFzZXJpZXMub3Jn Cg== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 10:14:29 -0800 Reply-To: bobnewhartfan@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <5962D1B0-961F-4418-AF25-7A56CF556CD4@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The reason I find this particular line of thought disturbing is that denying that your opponent has good reasons for doing what they do, and that from their point of view a good case can be made for the rationality of their actions, you are denying that those who disagree with you have the ability to freely and authentically engage in the world as they choose to given the possibilities presented to them by the world. To deny that ability, to my mind, is to dehumanize a person, and so, i have to ask, is this argument you're making not in the end the same thing in its ends as the system that you are criticizing. ________ It sounds very much like what Wayne Booth calls "motivism." See here: http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~raha/Booth-site/pages/Glossary/Motivism.htm However, it seems to me that Gudding is describing social phenomena without naming names--therefore he avoids ascribing a specific motive to a specific agent. I don't know if this makes any difference in any real way though... This is interesting. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 10:23:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: luke daly Subject: New from House Press, 1-51 by Luke Daly and Rachel Buck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit House Press is pleased to announce 1-51, a collaboration between Luke Daly and Rachel Buck. Twenty five poems and twenty five full-color photographs. Hand bound, hand-printed covers, custom end papers. It's a nice book. Copies, photos and more info available here: http://www.housepress.blogspot.com House Press is an independent, poetry-centered arts community founded in Buffalo, NY in 2002. More info : http://www.housepress.org http://housepress.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 12:00:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Spiral Jetty, Eva Hesse, N Holt, R Smithson, Comments: cc: Poetryetc , UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Somewhat in light of current issues surrounding the Spiral Jetty, there is, I found, a quite intriguing 1973 Lucy Lippard conversation with Smithson and Holt in the current Art Forum: [OUT OF THE PAST: A CONVERSATION ON EVA HESSE] Hesse's interest Beckett, rejection of the sexual bondage inherrent in object & subject relations among minimalists (Lewitt, Judd, Andre) , formalism versus an interest in decay, psychoanalysis, and her shared commitment with Smithson to writing are fascinating. As well as early issues of feminism in relationship to the big boys, including Hesse's Interest in the way an art object made by a woman is manifestation of a mystical penus. Utlimately, unless it's already been done, I suspect the issues raised in this conversaton, will have some bearing on the relationships between minimalism and the rough early relationships between language poetry and feminism (and/or the dismissal of male or female interest in the personal, including biological). Hesse's works. absorption in the organic/biological certainly (often humorously) flew in the face of the serverity of Judd and company. Anyway, good juice for thought. And, in the spirt of 'all politics are local', please don't forget that guy, Jim Jemmings in Utah to protest the potential of any provision for drilling operations, etc. in the vicinity of the Sprial Jetty. If you need any ideas,here is what I wrote the man: To:jjemming@utah.gov [input] [input] [input] [input] YAHOO.Shortcuts.hasSensitiveText = false; YAHOO.Shortcuts.sensitivityType = []; YAHOO.Shortcuts.doUlt = false; YAHOO.Shortcuts.location = "us"; YAHOO.Shortcuts.lang = "us"; YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_id = 0; YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_type = ""; YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_title = ""; YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_publish_date = ""; YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_author = ""; YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_url = ""; YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_tags = ""; YAHOO.Shortcuts.annotationSet = { "lw_1202241431_0": { "text": "State of Utah", "extended": 0, "startchar": 550, "endchar": 562, "start": 550, "end": 562, "extendedFrom": "", "predictedCategory": "", "predictionProbability": "0", "weight": 0.710515, "type": ["shortcuts:/us/instance/place/us/state"], "category": ["PLACE"], "context": "the art work and the State of Utah I suggest the State will", "metaData": { "geoArea": "219693", "geoCountry": "United States", "geoIsoCountryCode": "US", "geoLocation": "(-111.54705, 39.499611)", "geoName": "State of Utah", "geoPlaceType": "State", "geoState": "State of Utah", "geoStateCode": "UT", "type": "shortcuts:/us/instance/place/us/state" } }, "lw_1202241431_1": { "text": "San Francisco, California", "extended": 0, "startchar": 928, "endchar": 952, "start": 928, "end": 952, "extendedFrom": "", "predictedCategory": "", "predictionProbability": "0", "weight": 1.36366, "type": ["shortcuts:/us/instance/place/destination", "shortcuts:/us/instance/place/us/town"], "category": ["PLACE"], "context": "you Stephen Vincent Artist Writer San Francisco California", "metaData": { "geoArea": "274.987", "geoCountry": "United States", "geoCounty": "San Francisco", "geoIsoCountryCode": "US", "geoLocation": "(-122.42009, 37.77916)", "geoName": "San Francisco", "geoPlaceType": "Town", "geoState": "California", "geoStateCode": "CA", "geoTown": "San Francisco", "type": "shortcuts:/us/instance/place/us/town" } } }; YAHOO.Shortcuts.overlaySpaceId = "97546169"; YAHOO.Shortcuts.hostSpaceId = "97546168"; Dear Mr. Jemmings: I understand that the State is considering whether or not to permit oil operations in the close vicinity of Robert Smithson's Spiral Jetty, For a large public - in the USA and Abroad - this work is one of the major art sites and signature sculptural statements of the 20Th Century. It is a well known public destination site and the work has been the subject of countless essays, books and photographs. To defile the site with industrial activity would be a disgrace to both the site of the art work and the State of Utah. I suggest the State will profit much more from supporting the custodial care, attention and celebration of the Spiral Jetty than permitting its willful desecration. I encourage your office to cancel further consideration of this permission. Thank you , Stephen Vincent Artist & Writer San Francisco, California ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 13:59:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Bettridge Subject: Portland State University Symposium on Experimental Poetry and Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Department of English, University Studies, and the Portland Center for Public Humanities will host a symposium on radical poetics and avant-garde poetry on Friday, February 8th, from 2:00-4:00pm, in 238 Smith (SMU). Our four distinguished participants are *Marjorie Perloff*, (2006 President of the Modern Language Association and author of 13 books of criticism), *Lyn Hejinian* (current Chancellor of the Academy of American Poets, whose thirty four books include *Writing is An Aid to Memory, My Life *and* The Language of Inquiry*), *Joan Retallack *(John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Professor of Humanities at Bard College and author of 9 books of poetry as well as 4 books of criticism, including *Musicage, *a series of her conversations with* *John Cage), and *Hank Lazer* (editor of the Modern and Contemporary Poetics series for the University of Alabama Press and author of 12 books of poetry). Perloff will offer a critical perspective on the place of sound in innovative writing and each of the three poets will read from their work. An open conversation with the participants will follow. For more information please contact Joel Bettridge by phone (503-725-9553) or email (joel_bettridge@gmail.com). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 14:15:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: richard owens Subject: DALE SMITH - SUSQUEHANNA In-Reply-To: <743626.89177.qm@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DALE SMITH - SUSQUEHANNA - NOW AVAILABLE This book contains the first part of Dale Smith's Susquehanna, a sustained meditation on the value of failed vision -- particularly the inability of a young Samuel Taylor Coleridge to fully realize his Pantisocracy on the banks of the Susquehanna River in the early 19th century. Thinking this failure through the cultural and technological developments of the present moment, Smith develops a methodological approach within the body of the poem grounded partly in Walter Benjamin's materialist historiography and David Antin's talking meditations on anthropology. 64 pages. Perfect-bound with three-color letterpress wraps. Like the Wingbow Press edition of Ed Dorn's Slinger, parts of the book were set in Caslon Old Face. Parts of the book were also set in Baskerville Old Face, Palatino Linotype, and Georgia. Interior images culled from various 18th century New England primers. Front cover image of Britain culled from John Sellers' 1690 Hydrographia Universalis. Rear cover image from Sellers' A New Systeme of Geography, 2nd Edition, also printed in 1690. Parts of this poem previously appeared in Kadar Koli, Madorla, and Damn the Caesars. $10.00 (Paypal. Check. Money order.) http://damnthecaesars.org/ The "Punch Press" menu option to the right of the DTC webpage will lead you to Smith's Susquehanna and other Punch Press publications. cheers... rich... ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 03:56:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry//Internet outage in Mid East MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit well, david, you gave jason a lecture, mistaking as a desire for less scratchy recordings his desire for work that takes the medium of recorded sound seriously as artistic media. and i pointed some of it out. so then you gave me a lecture on being narrowly focussed on the audiophilic. writing sound is a matter of layers/channels and sequences/takes. that is the 'architecture' of writing sound, sort of like the architecture of this message is a string of ASCII characters. imagine recorded sound as a writing. imagine the time when writing existed but very few knew how to write. a conversation between homer and a not so humble scribe. just write it down like I tell you, boy, says homer. homer, you moron, this is not a tape recorder, says the scribe, it's a different medium. in the future, he says, people will understand that editing and meditating on phrases and layering work--editing, in short--is a natural part of the writing process, and they'll understand it isn't simply a silent coding of speech but is also other things. and poets will be their own scribes, as will other people--writing will be almost as widely understood as speaking. imagine that. and i'm not going to be there. poetry's gonna change, homer, you can bet your butt on that. but i love ya, says the scribe. you are the grandaddy of it all. tell me that line again, please. line? says homer. don't give me that pythagorean technical mumbo jumbo for the sake of zeus, boy, speak plainly. plainly. poetry. you know. poetry. quoth he with bardic exasperation. i think they drank a bottle of wine together later, though, david. or maybe during. cheers, david. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 19:23:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: More on mid-19th century notions of static and dynamic electrical fluid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed More on mid-19th century notions of static and dynamic electrical fluid Electrostaticks ii (julu) Now, Nikuko, we are ready to begin. We left off with puckered and warped matter; I'd say that matter in that configuration is ikonic, that is, mute, that is, relegated to itself, to its own inertness, of which the fluidic, austral and boreal, is but inhering and ontological. Think of this as electrostatics. And how so indexical? Pointing to what attribute, if not the beauty of your eyes, Julu? I fail to comprehend, I falter, tremble.The caress is dynamic - no, fucking is dynamic, the caress is static; the caress is an ontological assembly of one more more representatives of organic, emanent, or machinic phyla. There is such difference between on one hand the telegraph and on the other the sphere or point or line, whatever plays among ludic electro- statics, which are theatrical, of and for an audience, social. Yes, it brings disease to the closed surfaces of the real, and things seep within. Dynamic electricity requires grease, oil, sweat; statical electricks require nothing more than the light touch of a beautiful girl's hand Your mouth is mine! (nikuko) And then, Julu, there is the Other, dynamic electricity, which is of motion, measurement, gauge, and transport; electrons move in complete circuits, surround and are surrounded by fields, mutual inductances; such would be indexical. Indexical by virtue of pointing elsewhere, the electrick a guide or guided or channeled. In the dynamic there is a split and motion is regulated, as it is not among the electrostatics, within which it is sudden, of a moment, orgasm. You put it perfectly, as your eyes wander, Julu, but there is more. For the transport of electrons clouds the very nature of substance itself, for of what atoms are they composed, and what of the flow? I would say that this is a materialism imbued with spirit, and this is why ectoplasm and other fluids, for example magnetic, make sense. And don't forget the most important point, perhaps, that electrostatics ride the surfaces of objects, they are sheave-skin; dynamic electricity rides internally through wires and cable (although towards the outermost layer of these as well). What is dynamic occurs in a potential well, is hidden; what is static occurs on a vulnerable surface, always discharging, on the verge of collapse - the defuge of the material world. Then again or once upon, the defuge of the material world is, is it not, the exhaustion of internal mechanism, the closed wall? Or the corrosion of batteries and wires? Where, and what of these? But I would say that the defuge of the material world, and one need only look at the images, photographs and engravings, is ectoplasm itself. Ectoplasm remains mute, is mute, but is always slightly abject, dirty, covered with saliva, spit, and so forth. It brings disease. Your mouth is mine! ,,,,, http://www.alansondheim.org/within03.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/within04.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/within05.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/within06.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/within08.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/within09.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/within10.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/within11.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/within12.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 10:08:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: screams and cadence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed screams and cadence listening to CB radio in Morgantown, the first, breaker2, is an odd melange of screams and cries - filtered in breaker2filter. I imagine these are taken from a film or produced in some audio program; they're frighten- ing. the breaker1 is a sequence on channel 6 with the dead air edited out. I'm fascinated by cadence and rhythm here. I'm working with 02 radio, short-wave, scanning, vlf, low frequency, crystal, listening to anything I can receive. our place is hampered by a location in a small hollow near the middle of the town - too much interference from the power grid, not enough radio visibility. On the other hand, the screams, if screams they be, came through loud and clear. http://www.alansondheim.org/breaker2.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/breaker2filter.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/breaker1.mp3 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:19:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry//Internet outage in Mid East In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jim, although now I think the next time I read a line from the iliad it's going to hard not to imagine it being read by Foghorn Leghorn. I just want to say that I've found the interchange between you and David and both of your views on the field very helpful. I feel like i've got a lot of listening and reading to do, and having read through both of your comments, i feel like i have some excellent starting points for further investigation. I also want to thank all the folks who've come out of the woodwork and backchanneled me to share their own work and talk about their own experiences. I get the impression that, where what David says is true and that a lot of this stuff has been going on for a long time, at the same time we're maybe right now entering into a new chapter thanks to the populism of cheap audio technology capable making audio editting a more accessible medium to folks who want to work with it. A number of folks have sent me email talking about similar interests and questions and being involved in DIY audiotext and several good discussions have happened as a result. All in all all good things and very exciting. Toward that end, I'm thinking of creating a central location for these sorts of experiments and investigations on the web, possibly with an eye towards producing a journal of sound poetry distributed on CD-R at some point, and also to facilitate community and interchange of techniques and ideas for people who are interested in this sort of poetics specifically. Once I get it up and running, I'll be sure to announce it to the list, and I hope that everyone who has had their interest piqued by this conversation will participate in the project and help shape it into something that can help them in their work. thanks, Jason On Feb 6, 2008, at 3:56 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > well, david, you gave jason a lecture, mistaking as a desire for less > scratchy recordings his desire for work that takes the medium of > recorded > sound seriously as artistic media. and i pointed some of it out. so > then you > gave me a lecture on being narrowly focussed on the audiophilic. > > writing sound is a matter of layers/channels and sequences/takes. > that is > the 'architecture' of writing sound, sort of like the architecture > of this > message is a string of ASCII characters. imagine recorded sound as a > writing. > > imagine the time when writing existed but very few knew how to > write. a > conversation between homer and a not so humble scribe. just write > it down > like I tell you, boy, says homer. homer, you moron, this is not a tape > recorder, says the scribe, it's a different medium. in the future, > he says, > people will understand that editing and meditating on phrases and > layering > work--editing, in short--is a natural part of the writing process, and > they'll understand it isn't simply a silent coding of speech but is > also > other things. and poets will be their own scribes, as will other > people--writing will be almost as widely understood as speaking. > imagine > that. and i'm not going to be there. poetry's gonna change, homer, > you can > bet your butt on that. but i love ya, says the scribe. you are the > grandaddy > of it all. tell me that line again, please. > > line? says homer. don't give me that pythagorean technical mumbo > jumbo for > the sake of zeus, boy, speak plainly. plainly. poetry. you know. > poetry. > quoth he with bardic exasperation. > > i think they drank a bottle of wine together later, though, david. > or maybe > during. > > cheers, david. > > ja > http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:09:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: <818a2baf0802050902t363cd450p72c20a9f5a584990@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Feb 5, 2008, at 9:02 AM, Danny Snelson wrote: > > but that returns to, i think, the more pressing question of changes in > dissemination. gregory mostly records for BBC but also releases on > small > labels or with galleries. & there was > TELLUS(we've put a number of > newly digitized items online recently), but more > interestingly, there once were networks of cassette exchange. you > question, > somewhat bizarrely to my ears, jason, if there are cd-r zines! > aren't cd-rs > obsolete with digital network exchange? Possibly. I once had a class with Tom Rhea, a fascinating curmudgeonly man well known in certain circles for having been the guy who wrote the users manual for the original mini moog synthesizer, who was fond of commenting that the consumer public is stupid as evidenced by the fact that they selected the audio cassette as a favored audio medium over the vastly superior audio quality of LP records. It's interesting, to me at least, looking at the history of the distribution of audio that almost at every turn where new media has always been selected for convenience over sound quality. Still, there has always been a desire among certain wonkish audiophile segments of the public, usually people who are serious rather than casual listeners, for greater fidelity in the recording. Given that audio poetry requires serious listening, i think it's possible to make a good case that there are higher standards of distribution quality (as opposed to production quality where really anything is fair game) just as is the case with music recordings aimed at the audiophile demographic. To that end, i think it might be interesting to treat audio poetry the same way. Granted MP3 is a pretty good lossy compression algorithm. However, it is still lossy, and the compression process as a result will always produce audible artifacts, even at higher bit rates. The idea that there might be a CD-R or DVD-R distribution is attractive because it allows not just for compressed audio distribution, but other possibilities like dolby encoding, CD quality 16bit/44.1khz audio, as well as saving people the time of downloading and the necessity of maintaining the network bandwidth for huge audio files. which is a boon for folks like me whose broadband options are limited or nonexistent because of where we live. Thanks, Jason ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:50:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura hinton Subject: InterRUPTions poetry series: Bruce Andrews on Monday, Feb. 11, NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline InterRUPTions An Experimental Writers Series Announces a Poetry Reading/Event with Bruce Andrews Monday, February 11, 2008 5:30 p.m. Room 6/316 The Rifkind Room North Academic Complex (NAC) The City College of New York * 138th at Convent Ave. New York City Bruce Andrews is the author of over 40 books of poetry, including *Mistaken Identity* (Faux Press), *Lip Service *(Coffee House Press) and *Plans Carry Weight* (housepress). He is also the author of numerous essays on poetry and poetics, and co-edited the legendary journal L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E from 1978-1981(with Charles Bernstein). As a performance poet, Andrews has collaborated in text-music-dance stagings with numerous artists, including the choreographer Sally Silvers. Andrews is also a social scientist, and holds a professorship in Political Science at Fordham University in New York City. The InterRUPTions series is free and open to the public. Refreshments will be served. ------------------- *This event is funded in part by Poets & Writers, Inc. through a grant it has received from Poets & Writers, Inc. It is sponsored by the Department of English at the City College of New York and the CCNY Rifkind Center. For information on the InterRUPTions reading series, contact CCNY Professor Laura Hinton: laurahinton12@yahoo.com. * _______________ * DIRECTIONS: In Manhattan, take the 1/9 subway line to 137th Street. Walk up the hill to Amsterdam Avenue. Enter the NAC Building at the Amsterdam level's south entrance. Inform security personnel at the door you are attending the poetry reading, and take the escalator to the 6th Floor. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 18:35:55 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roy Exley Subject: Roy Exley - Re: The drip drip drip of life as it erodes theory Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Poetry has to be a dynamic living entity, has to assert its vitality, to retain a connection with its evolutionary urge - theory has to continually re-invent itself to avoid extinction - life is fighting a losing battle against entropy, but unless it evolves at a rapidly accelerating rate, theory is already dead in the water. The written word is undergoing cataclysmic change as it is increasingly released into cyberspace while its paper-bound cousin becomes more exclusive and elitist. The digital ether voraciously consumes the torrent of words that enters its apparently infinite spaces. As the potential for accessibility increases so the routes of access proliferate and the number of permutations for access swell, so we have the paradox of a more accessible generation of digital poetry that gets lost in the complexities of its medium. Theory simply can't keep up with the proliferation of the word in cyberspace, like a hunter submarine whose technology is being perpetually superceded by that of its prey, the drip drip drip of life, whose entropy assails theory, has been superceded by the torrent of text in cyberspace, so instead of a relentless erosion, theory is now threatened with rapid annihilation. Poetry continues to evolve and to exceed its parameters, so we must be increasingly flexible in the way that we perceive and receive it while theory is increasingly threatened by the sharpness of its cutting edge. If beauty has been consigned by theory to the role of romantic anachronism, then the sublime spaces of cyberspace have out-manouevred theory and re-established a need and a desire for beauty, beauty has evolved, has been transmuted and poetry must discover is new codes. Forget theory as it vainly fights extinction, focus in on a newly re-invented beauty. As Derrida's 'Metaphysics of Presence' challenges the hegemony of western philosophy, so poetry needs to beak new ground and shrug of the constrictions of theory. I am sorely hoping that this proposition of mine will be addressed, in contrast to my last three contributions, that have been totally and irrevocably ignored - am I trying in vain to break into an elitist circle here? Or is there room for a divergence of dialogue? Roy Exley. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:19:07 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: appearances and publications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are in either area, please come and hear me in New York on Friday, F= ebruary 8, 6:45 pm, at the Review Panel, National Academy Museum, 1083 Fift= h Avenue at 89th Street, where (with David Cohen, James Gardner, and Robert= Storr) I will be discussing a number of current New York art exhibitions, = or in Austin, Texas, on Sunday, February 10, at 7:30 pm, where I (with Robe= rto Tejada) I will be reading poems at 12 Street Books, 827 W. 12th Street.= =0A=0AYou may also want to check out some recent online publications of min= e: on Lawrence Weiner's retrospective at the Whitney Museum, http://www.the= nation.com/doc/20080218/schwabsky; on the new New Museum and its inaugural = exhibition, "Unmonumental," http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080211/schwabsky= ; and a new (or rather, newly finished) poem, http://www.fieralingue.it/cor= ner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2180. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:25:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <11d43b500802050817l25e17cfs32af7c0f846645cf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "i wonder if there are any poems about avenging a fathers death out there, or about nice, intimate; but not too time-consuming conversations with shotguns. - he needed killin - used to work just fine in court in the west." * I'm not sure about avenging, but his father's suicide figures prominently in much of Berryman's work, especially his late period. I do have my library handy. I may be able to find an avenging poem in the Dream Songs, that brutal and beautiful suicide note. heidi arnold wrote: gabe, i had been wondering what role the poet plays and why one would ask such a question in the first place. what is the role of the poet. what kind of question is that. what is the role of the contemplative. havent read an explanation that is reasonable on that one. but if being reasonable doesnt matter too much, then youre off and running. one interesting thing for me is that your discussion is couched in terms of critical praxis, which i am entirely rusty at, but i guess the problem for me with such a praxis is it dissects things from the outside. sometimes this is very interesting but i dont and probably never have seen what it has to do with poetry. so. i mean, when asked why a poem is a sonnet rather than free verse, the poet is allowed to say, - because i like it that way. - because it suits, because it is true, yes, but also because that is what the poet liked, that is there is a notion of loyalty implicit in the truth value, as also i think in values of freedom. in the same way, if you end up getting to be the cowboy way out ahead of the herd, and my grandfather was a cowboy in his youth and so this is not pretention on my part, but if you get to do that work, it is ok to say this is my work just because i like it that way, because this is the world i see, this is what is true. it is also ok to try and find out what that means rather than trying to spin gold from imaginary assumptions without the slightest bit of evidence in real terms. this world from the outbound is worth trying to talk to. and the ringing ironies in such a position are painful indeed, how badly one measures against the smoke once a candle is gone. one thing about fabricating histories from smoke that have no concrete grounding in actual fact, is that i think you have to translate them into some kind of abstract critique. because in embodied, everyday terms, they WILL NOT hold water. how fun to destroy a beautiful truth and make it something ugly as though it never existed in the first place. in cyberspace, you can do anything, if you dont care if your world becomes a fake cartoon. some peoples lives are so microengineered it is truly heartbreaking. well a bug in amber cant do anything about it but, think, one of the things about the lists scapegoat submissions, which were delayed when fred was so very ill, was the kind of spectacle and gratification generated by the pariah. i wonder if anyone can write a poem about a society without pariahs, wirthout your favorite persecutee, after all, dont the persecuted secretly enjoy it? isnt there some secret masochism god given to every returning sadist who cant admit a mistake. i wonder if there are any poems about avenging a fathers death out there, or about nice, intimate; but not too time-consuming conversations with shotguns. - he needed killin - used to work just fine in court in the west. without my library i cant add speculations about H.D. or others right now, i would have to look up the details, some of you do just fine without your library. sorry. just offhand i would say that pounds line including -- we grub the soft fern shoots -- has such depth and sensitivity to his subject. it grieves me to find that lacking so often in discussions. it does, it always will. as if, again, the object position is one which enjoys persecution and silencing. no so, colleagues, not at all, of course. but the obvious and the unremarked are not the same thing in this case. what is the world -- who is in the world -- how can we heal the world -- these are important questions, like asking who is God and how can we know. those questions take years and years to even begin. and henri nouwen is indeed the rilke in the background somewhere in those words. ... who a fellow poet is, strikes me as not terribly interesting, especially when it is so much more interesting just to sit and take a look around. who each poet is, it just strikes me as not that interesting. speck of dust kind of thing. there are just a lot more important problems. thinking about eternal things goes well on caol ila whiskey or orval trappist ale in this cold, if you ask me. the cold here is just fine by me. be well. my 2 cents heidi On Feb 5, 2008 2:35 AM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] > > Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, cultural > criminal or sacred heretic. > > Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the "angry outsider," the > untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred transgressor, the > misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the maverick, the criminal. To > hang one's shingle as a disinterested shaman. To declare oneself the > Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To declare oneself the Angry Righteous > Disinterested Transgressing-yet-Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare > one's friends the apocalypse. > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to tout > oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by enacting ritual > sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: to display one's > disinterestedness in profit in order to display one's purity of intent > and pure devotion to the art; to display one's high mind via one's > principled disgust at the sycophancy and interdependent nature of the > field; to make a show of one's supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy > of defiance toward the literary community. > > This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external > restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one's > label on it. Iteration of the romantic "single actor" or "small cadre" > theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all cultural work, > or at least that work that went into making the badboy > victim-transgressor author. > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of all > being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of "anger" or > "being a jerk" as a mode of appropriating needs and dealing with > perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor masks this > collective history and suppresses his connection to the field of > production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as intellectual > spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw attention away > from that masking, making it easier to be touted as "the" origin rather > than one result of the entire work done by the host of beings in that > field from readers to reviewers to truck drivers. This is a ready made > author type whose vogue waxes and wanes but is overall adopted > surprisingly frequently. To borrow a metaphor from Stan Apps: the > "transgressor" is a retail product that one buys and then pretends one > found at Goodwill. > > Common tactic: to tout what one does as "shocking" or to start or > further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked as > rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is > ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and that one > will be exonerated by history. > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the "sacred heretic" is > used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the tactic as > a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not with any one > flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as a basis for > anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan Kaufman's The Outlaw > Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, whereas more moderate and > even reactionary aesthetics are covered by the anthologies Legitimate > Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New > Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:45:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: Artists Rally for Spiral Jetty in Utah - Roma Art Exhibit in Hungary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Two very different stories-- both concerned however with economics' effects on/with art and with the Roma, the most "Outsider" people of Europe-- ironically--there is also in the Arts section a piece re the "Gypsy" of a new production of Carmen the Roma article is about not just being Outsider people, but the art being also a lot of it what is classified now in the art world as "Outsider"-- and how this affects the perceptions of the people themselves for the non-Roma a kind of double-bind also the rise of some right wing "Guards" who are anti-Roma Roma Art Exhibition in Hungary: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/arts/design/06roma.html?_r=1&oref=slogin--- -Artists Rally for Spiral Jetty: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/arts/06arts-ARTISTSRALLY_BRF.html?ref=arts--- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:05:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Chomsky/bought and paid for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Shouldn't our intellectuals be held accountable? Chomsky was on the pentagon's pay roll for years. His stock portfolio is anything but progressive. & his speaking fees are exorbitant. He lives in a highly fashionable, pricey Mass suburb. I doubt if he's spoken to a working stiff or non -academic in years. I don't think the guy is a phony, but he is compromised. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 15:25:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" Comments: To: automatic digest system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JP, It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer your questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: the thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the feminine is not, = to use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt but undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact arguably defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but letters in toto.= To even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the biographie= s and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this apparently hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this structure. And= I know that's not your intention. Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer you to DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She says succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to say on this l= ist. Thanks for your post. Gabriel -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com < [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] > > Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, > cultural criminal or sacred heretic. > > Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the =93angry > outsider,=94 the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred > transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the > maverick, the criminal. To hang one=92s shingle as a disinterested > shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To > declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet- > Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one=92s friends the apocalypse. > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to > tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by > enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: > to display one=92s disinterestedness in profit in order to display > one=92s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display > one=92s high mind via one=92s principled disgust at the sycophancy and > interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's > supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the > literary community. > > This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external > restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one=92s > label on it. Iteration of the romantic =93single actor=94 or =93small > cadre=94 theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all > cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the > badboy victim-transgressor author. > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of > all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of > =93anger=94 or =93being a jerk=94 as a mode of appropriating needs and > dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor > masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the > field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as > intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw > attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as > =93the=94 origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the > host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck > drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and > wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a > metaphor from Stan Apps: the =93transgressor=94 is a retail product > that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. > > Common tactic: to tout what one does as =93shocking=94 or to start or > further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked > as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is > ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and > that one will be exonerated by history. > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =93sacred heretic=94 > is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the > tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not > with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as > a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan > Kaufman=92s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, > whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered > by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and > Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:16:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: In the Republican Closet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/06/6869/ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 17:36:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <453058.47511.qm@web52411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Really? Chomsky being on the pentagon's payroll is news to me. I'd be interested in reading up on this. Where'd you come across that? -Ryan On Feb 6, 2008 4:05 PM, steve russell wrote: > Shouldn't our intellectuals be held accountable? Chomsky was on the pentagon's pay roll for years. His stock portfolio is anything but progressive. & his speaking fees are exorbitant. > He lives in a highly fashionable, pricey Mass suburb. I doubt if he's spoken to a working stiff or non -academic in years. I don't think the guy is a phony, but he is compromised. > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 17:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry//Internet outage in Mid East In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, Jason, David, Three days ago, I began to write a response to Jason's original query. IBefore I finished it, I decided not to go on with it. Though sound and its complex and in some ways oppositional relation to performance is of supreme importance to me, I felt what I war writing was perhaps too far off from what you were discussing and were interested in. After Jim's post today and his riff on Homer, I changed my mind. Here is what I had written.Mine was going to be longer, but there is enough in it anyway: "Jason, When Ron Silliman developed his idea of a new sentence, he based it on the transformation of poetry from performance to a more reading (and subliminally seeing experience) after the invention of the printing press. He sees the poetry of the New Sentence as the culmination of this distinction between poetry as performance, experienced basically as uttered speech, and poetry as read language. In the slower intricacies of read language, the textural displacements the new sentence might create ("torsions"), Ron sees new possibilities for poetry, a dynamic (a new "concrete music" of torques) those distortions might create. You are after, it seems to me, a digital poetry, reflecting possibly the consuming importance of computers in our lives today. This is a very interesting take; but, before saying where I agree with you, let me say where I see a significant difference. The New Sentence was based on an actual fact, that in the United States a person receives most of one's poetry experience through the page. The computer is not *yet* the medium through which most poetry is received, or experienced. The computer, as far as I can tell, has not yet established a distinct mode of reading for poetry, except maybe enforcing an element of speed, like surfing. This difference is important, though I am not yet quite clear in what. One may perhaps discuss it later. If paint is the basic material of painting and sound of music, words are the basic material of poetry. I can imagine letters to be the synthesizing units of a digital sound poetry. In a number of poets' works, for instance, in some of Alan's, a series of consonants appear in sequences or combinations next to each other. These poems remain on the page, silent - as conceptual or as concrete poems with a visual dimension- because the human voice can not "perform" these consonants all against each other. The resistance they create is too great. But each letter uttered and recorded individually can be then synthesized digitally. I can imagine a pointillist music made of these mixed sounds, the *wave* of music they may create. For instance, one may take all the letters of "Apres-midi D'un Faun" and create a chromatic digital poem out of it, as a pendant to Debussy's piece of music on the same poem. Jason, would you be interested in such a joint project? I think the relationship between Seurat's "Un Dimanche Apres-Midi," Debussy's "Prelude A L'Apres-midi D'un Faun" and the project of a digital poem around the same poem is not accidental; but has a plot. Seurat's painting is filled with a giddy scientificism which permeates the painting, not that different from the giddy excitement with which the digital poem is embracing the new computer technology. Debussy is breaking down the traditional distances separating notes, the way in a digital poem the word or syllable as a unit of sound is broken down into letters often as consonants compressed, impacting against each other. On the other hand, both Debussy's piece and this project refer to Mallarme, the great skeptic of technology, creator of a resistant space full of chance. Ciao, Murat On Feb 3, 2008 3:16 AM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art > archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the > experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more interesting > than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an awful lot going > on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really caught up to the > technological and aesthetic achievements of various electronic music > types. Moreover, along with being more advanced and more challenging > than a lot of the sound poetry i'm listening to on here, i tend to > think that someone like for example the aphex twin or plastikman or > iannis xenakis or glenn branca is also more accessible because > they're coming at what they're doing from a starting place of music > rather than a starting place of poetry. Googling around for search > strings like "sound poetry" and "audio poetry" one tends to find a > lot of recordings of readings, a lot of them pretty crummy qua > recordings, which I guess is my complaint over all. I did find some > stuff on PennSound that was kind of along the right track, things > that were using signal processing to create sounds and which had an > adequate level of audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep > coming across sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a > sound blaster 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. > > So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's > sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out > experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily > seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals > produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for > years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i > have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for me > to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me that > the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened in > poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But listening to > what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes me suspect that > there's some unmined territory as far as audiotextual work goes and > maybe I should start taking my own thoughts on the matter a little > more seriously. > > So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art > (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't the > sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the interest, and > in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or terrible > consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily that I might > not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm looking for is > like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that sees the potential > of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live reading or euro > modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant garde jazz/musique > concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to be the bulk of > what's out there. > > Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references to > any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. > > Thanks, > > Jason Quackenbush" > On Feb 6, 2008 6:56 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > well, david, you gave jason a lecture, mistaking as a desire for less > scratchy recordings his desire for work that takes the medium of recorded > sound seriously as artistic media. and i pointed some of it out. so then > you > gave me a lecture on being narrowly focussed on the audiophilic. > > writing sound is a matter of layers/channels and sequences/takes. that is > the 'architecture' of writing sound, sort of like the architecture of this > message is a string of ASCII characters. imagine recorded sound as a > writing. > > imagine the time when writing existed but very few knew how to write. a > conversation between homer and a not so humble scribe. just write it down > like I tell you, boy, says homer. homer, you moron, this is not a tape > recorder, says the scribe, it's a different medium. in the future, he > says, > people will understand that editing and meditating on phrases and layering > work--editing, in short--is a natural part of the writing process, and > they'll understand it isn't simply a silent coding of speech but is also > other things. and poets will be their own scribes, as will other > people--writing will be almost as widely understood as speaking. imagine > that. and i'm not going to be there. poetry's gonna change, homer, you can > bet your butt on that. but i love ya, says the scribe. you are the > grandaddy > of it all. tell me that line again, please. > > line? says homer. don't give me that pythagorean technical mumbo jumbo for > the sake of zeus, boy, speak plainly. plainly. poetry. you know. poetry. > quoth he with bardic exasperation. > > i think they drank a bottle of wine together later, though, david. or > maybe > during. > > cheers, david. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:45:50 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C= Yikes. See http://www.npboards.com/t8077-noam-chomsky-responds.html:=0A=0AC= homsky wrote:=0AIn fact, my stock portfolio is TIIA-CREF, the standard for = academic pension funds. But it's totally irrelevant, for the reasons I men= tioned, which are understood very well by poor and suffering people, and th= ose who are seriously working for badly needed social change. They don't = give a tinker's damn whether you hide what money you have under a mattress = or put it in a bank or pension fund, in which case, of course, you'll be pa= rt of the corporate system, just as you are when you make a purchase from a= corporation.=0AAll of this is very familiar. Communist Party hacks consta= ntly condemned dissidents because they wanted to radically change the socie= ty, but participated in it and hence benefitted from it.=0AThere is, incide= ntally, a case to be made for socially responsible investment, and there ar= e interesting initiatives that merit support, and contribute in limited way= s to badly needed social change, but only in extremely limited ways as comp= ared with the kind of activism that your sources are desperately attempting= to undermine. But extricating oneself from the system is simply a major g= ift to centers of power, a fact obvious to the victims, which is why one he= ars these absurdities only from people are desperate to protect power and p= rivilege. All pretty obvious, when you think it through.=0A=0Aand in respo= nse to=0A"...This "socialist" professor charges over $10,000 of dollars for= a single appearance."=0AChomsky wrote:=0AThis is a flat lie, as can be dis= covered with two minutes of research. I never ask for a cent, and if there= is an honorarium, I ask that it be given to some appropriate organization = like Oxfam or UNESCO or others, and if that can't be done for technical rea= sons, do so myself.=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: steve russell =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday,= 6 February, 2008 9:05:52 PM=0ASubject: Chomsky/bought and paid for=0A=0ASh= ouldn't our intellectuals be held accountable? Chomsky was on the pentagon'= s pay roll for years. His stock portfolio is anything but progressive. & hi= s speaking fees are exorbitant. =0A He lives in a highly fashionable, pric= ey Mass suburb. I doubt if he's spoken to a working stiff or non -academic = in years. I don't think the guy is a phony, but he is compromised. =0A=0A = =0A---------------------------------=0ANever miss a thing. Make Yahoo= your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:50:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit here's a page of annotated links i put together concerning interactive audio on the web: http://vispo.com/misc/ia.htm some of these pieces involve poetry; all of them involve sound. this page links to the most interesting interactive audio pieces on the web that i'm aware of--send me info, please, on ones i've missed if you think they're good 'uns. and toward the bottom of the page, there are links to online writings about interactive audio and online videos about interactive audio. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 15:40:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Cannibal Books Brand New & Raw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cannibal Books ravenously offers flesh-eating poems in hand-made volumes of unfashionable genius: Cannibal: Issue Three 120 pages, hand-sewn in 7 signatures, w/ a screen-printed cover and featuring Spring Psalter, a chapbook by Nate Pritts, & poems by Samuel Amadon, Stephanie Anderson, Joseph Bradshaw, Lily Brown, Adam Clay, Julia Cohen, Matthew Cooperman, Phil Cordelli, Jordan Davis, Patrick Dunagan, Jeff Encke, Landis Everson, Elisa Gabbert, David Goldstein, Laura Goode, Noah Eli Gordon, Jane Gregory, Carolyn Guinzio, Mike Hauser, Anne Heide, Melanie Hubbard, Andrew Hughes, Philip Jenks & Simone Muench, Justin Marks, Chris Martin, Erin Martin, Ben Mazer, Jeff Morgan, Keith Newton, Chris Rizzo, Elizabeth Robinson, Kate Schapira, Mike Sikkema, Jessica Smith, Mathias Svalina, Chris Tonelli, Tim Van Dyke, & Jared White The Foundations of Poetry Mathematics by Ben Mazer 6 pages, hand-sewn True Poems About the River Go Like This by Andrea Baker accordion-style on canvas Gilbi Winco Swags by Melanie Hubbard 44 pages, hand-sewn Available through PayPal at flesheatingpoems.blogspot.com or query flesheatingpoems@yahoo.com for current mailing address. Our books will also be available at Pegasus Books (Berkeley, CA), Woodland Patterns (Milwaukee, WI), Unnameable Books (Brooklyn, NY) & elsewhere. Book buyer queries welcome. An aesthetic definition cannot define the hunger. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 16:12:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: New de Blog/ Ann Hamilton's Tower + Joanne Kyger & Mother sequence Comments: cc: Poetryetc , UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ A couple of new pieces Ann Hamilton: her new Tower at the Stephen & Nancy Oliver Ranch Last spring, Ann Hamilton, the artist, completed a tower. 86 feet tall, maybe 30 feet in diameter, composed of 250 tons of concrete (the structure is anchored by a 65 concrete pier into the earth, the last 10 or 15 feet(?) is pierced into solid rock). Inside, at the base, is a reflective pool.... (with photos and hapics!) Mother, Joanne Kyger, and the Practice of Radiance As my mom lay in bed late last evening - about to go to sleep - I read her Joanne Kyger's poem, September As always, appreciate our comments ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:31:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <629588.71458.qm@web86009.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for this link and clarification -- thanks very much. Barry Schwabsky wrote: C Yikes. See http://www.npboards.com/t8077-noam-chomsky-responds.html: Chomsky wrote: In fact, my stock portfolio is TIIA-CREF, the standard for academic pension funds. But it's totally irrelevant, for the reasons I mentioned, which are understood very well by poor and suffering people, and those who are seriously working for badly needed social change. They don't give a tinker's damn whether you hide what money you have under a mattress or put it in a bank or pension fund, in which case, of course, you'll be part of the corporate system, just as you are when you make a purchase from a corporation. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:19:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <629588.71458.qm@web86009.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yeah, I didn't think so. Thanks Barry. On Feb 6, 2008 5:45 PM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > C > Yikes. See http://www.npboards.com/t8077-noam-chomsky-responds.html: > > Chomsky wrote: > In fact, my stock portfolio is TIIA-CREF, the standard for academic pension funds. But it's totally irrelevant, for the reasons I mentioned, which are understood very well by poor and suffering people, and those who are seriously working for badly needed social change. They don't give a tinker's damn whether you hide what money you have under a mattress or put it in a bank or pension fund, in which case, of course, you'll be part of the corporate system, just as you are when you make a purchase from a corporation. > All of this is very familiar. Communist Party hacks constantly condemned dissidents because they wanted to radically change the society, but participated in it and hence benefitted from it. > There is, incidentally, a case to be made for socially responsible investment, and there are interesting initiatives that merit support, and contribute in limited ways to badly needed social change, but only in extremely limited ways as compared with the kind of activism that your sources are desperately attempting to undermine. But extricating oneself from the system is simply a major gift to centers of power, a fact obvious to the victims, which is why one hears these absurdities only from people are desperate to protect power and privilege. All pretty obvious, when you think it through. > > and in response to > "...This "socialist" professor charges over $10,000 of dollars for a single appearance." > Chomsky wrote: > This is a flat lie, as can be discovered with two minutes of research. I never ask for a cent, and if there is an honorarium, I ask that it be given to some appropriate organization like Oxfam or UNESCO or others, and if that can't be done for technical reasons, do so myself. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: steve russell > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, 6 February, 2008 9:05:52 PM > Subject: Chomsky/bought and paid for > > Shouldn't our intellectuals be held accountable? Chomsky was on the pentagon's pay roll for years. His stock portfolio is anything but progressive. & his speaking fees are exorbitant. > He lives in a highly fashionable, pricey Mass suburb. I doubt if he's spoken to a working stiff or non -academic in years. I don't think the guy is a phony, but he is compromised. > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 17:01:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Chomsky/bought & paid for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can only post one more time tonight. Briefly, Chomsky's "Aspects of the Theory of Syntax" was produced with money from the Joint Services Electronic Program (U.S. Army, UlS. Navy, and U.S. Air Force) as well as the U.S. Air Force Electronic Systems Divisions. When questioned, Chomsky quibs, "Do you think you are not working for the Pentagon? Ask yourself about the origins of the computer and the Internet you are now using." As though I'm equally implicated because I use the computer. Such bullshit. Chomsky, our man of the people, is fond of tax shelters. Boston's venerable white-shoe law firm Palmer and Dodge (funny name, Dodge) set up an irrevocable trust to protect his assets from uncle Sam. Chomsky favors the estate tax and massive income redistribution, but not HIS income. & he does charge 12,000 dollars a pop for lectures. He finds that corporations make damn good investments. He throws his money into blue chips and the TIAA-CREF stock fund. Many of those abhorrent companies he derides isn't reason for him not to profit-- name it, he's fond of oil companies, military contractors, and pharmaceuticals. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:14:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Snow cancellation, Danielle Pafunda's lecture at Columbia College Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all-- Apologies, but Danielle Pafunda's lecture (see below) at Columbia College Chicago was canceled tonight because of inclement weather. The college shut down all classes and events after 5 p.m. (I didn't think the storm was that bad myself. But I don't own a car, and I'm sure automobile travel issues played a big part in the decision.) The lecture will be rescheduled, probably for later this month. I'll send out a notice once the new day/location is decided. Thanks-- Best, Tony *********************************************** Please join us for the first event of our Spring Reading Series . . . DANIELLE PAFUNDA LECTURE: "Stunt Doubles, Companion Species, and the Lyric" Wednesday, February 6, 2008 (5:30 p.m.) Music Center Concert Hall 1014 South Michigan Avenue Free and open to the public For more information, call 312-344-8819 DANIELLE PAFUNDA is the Spring 2008 Visiting Poet-in-Residence at Columbia College Chicago. She is the author of two poetry collections, MY ZORBA (Bloof Books, 2008) and PRETTY YOUNG THING (Soft Skull Press, 2005), and the forthcoming chapbook A PRIMER FOR CYBORGS: THE CORPSE (Whole Coconut). She has been anthologized in the 2004, 2006, and 2007 editions of BEST AMERICAN POETRY, as well as in NOT FOR MOTHERS ONLY: CONTEMPORARY POETS ON CHILD-GETTING AND CHILD-REARING (Fence Books, 2007) and WOMEN POETS ON MENTORSHIP: EFFORTS AND AFFECTIONS (University of Iowa, 2008). Poetry, reviews, and essays appear in such publications as ACTION YES, CONJUNCTIONS, TRIQUARTERLY, and the GEORGIA REVIEW. She received a BA from Bard College, MFA in Poetry from New School University, and is currently a doctoral candidate in the University of Georgia Creative Writing Program. She is co-editor of the longstanding online literary journal LA PETITE ZINE, and a contributing curator at the new DELIRIOUS HEM. Her teaching and scholarly interests include 20th century American poetry, experimental poetry, gender theory, cultural and biocultural studies. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:24:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit if we can think of recorded sound as a type of writing, then the 'page' looks like a timeline that has multiple channels. And each channel can have multiple divisions into different cuts. as in the interface to a multi-track recording piece of software such as http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/images/ss/lg/acidpro6-callouts.jpg , which is the interface to Acid, a popular multi-track recording/editing piece of software. of course this is the architecture of film also, only the basic unit in film is the frame, whereas in sound it's the much smaller sample. you can edit both audio and video in Acid. audio and film are spatialized, as a writing space, into a two dimensional timeline with channels. interactive audio replaces the timeline paradigm with that of the flowchart (e.g. http://bayimg.com/oAFLFAaBC ). flowcharts allow for decisions. director, flash, Max, and other multimedia/programming authoring tools are hybrid timeline/flowchart media writing spaces. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:44:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: <437204.63004.qm@web52404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Steve, It's not that I don't believe you, but where are you getting this from? -Ryan On Feb 6, 2008 8:01 PM, steve russell wrote: > I can only post one more time tonight. Briefly, Chomsky's "Aspects of the Theory of Syntax" was produced with money from the Joint Services Electronic Program (U.S. Army, UlS. Navy, and U.S. Air Force) as well as the U.S. Air Force Electronic Systems Divisions. > When questioned, Chomsky quibs, "Do you think you are not working for the Pentagon? Ask yourself about the origins of the computer and the Internet you are now using." As though I'm equally implicated because I use the computer. Such bullshit. > > Chomsky, our man of the people, is fond of tax shelters. Boston's venerable white-shoe law firm Palmer and Dodge (funny name, Dodge) set up an irrevocable trust to protect his assets from uncle Sam. Chomsky favors the estate tax and massive income redistribution, but not HIS income. > > & he does charge 12,000 dollars a pop for lectures. > > He finds that corporations make damn good investments. He throws his money into blue chips and the TIAA-CREF stock fund. Many of those abhorrent companies he derides isn't reason for him not to profit-- name it, he's fond of oil companies, military contractors, and pharmaceuticals. > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:54:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: <437204.63004.qm@web52404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok. One more question and then I must retire: So, if New York State voted for the war, and if I receive an artist grant from New York State, am I on par with Chomsky? -Ryan On Feb 6, 2008 8:01 PM, steve russell wrote: > I can only post one more time tonight. Briefly, Chomsky's "Aspects of the Theory of Syntax" was produced with money from the Joint Services Electronic Program (U.S. Army, UlS. Navy, and U.S. Air Force) as well as the U.S. Air Force Electronic Systems Divisions. > When questioned, Chomsky quibs, "Do you think you are not working for the Pentagon? Ask yourself about the origins of the computer and the Internet you are now using." As though I'm equally implicated because I use the computer. Such bullshit. > > Chomsky, our man of the people, is fond of tax shelters. Boston's venerable white-shoe law firm Palmer and Dodge (funny name, Dodge) set up an irrevocable trust to protect his assets from uncle Sam. Chomsky favors the estate tax and massive income redistribution, but not HIS income. > > & he does charge 12,000 dollars a pop for lectures. > > He finds that corporations make damn good investments. He throws his money into blue chips and the TIAA-CREF stock fund. Many of those abhorrent companies he derides isn't reason for him not to profit-- name it, he's fond of oil companies, military contractors, and pharmaceuticals. > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:33:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: <9778b8630802061954p3549c2fbrca2c0164d1aade32@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If by "on par" you mean as open to criticism, then no. You haven't achieved enough to be worth attacking by any available means yet. On Feb 6, 2008 7:54 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: > Ok. One more question and then I must retire: > > So, if New York State voted for the war, and if I receive an artist > grant from New York State, am I on par with Chomsky? > > -Ryan > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 05:09:27 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ROBIN HAMILTON Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And just to chip in a little more, this in particular seems a bit ass-backwards: > I doubt if he's spoken to a working stiff or non -academic in years. == given that the thrust of Chomsky's domestic politics is American Activist Left, and the major part of his speaking is to non-academic audiences. (That was one of the subtexts of Sokal and Bricomart's _Intellectual Impostures_ that everyone commenting on the book seemed to ignore [another was the amount of space devoted to epistimology], that the post-modernists that they slagged off -- the one notable axception to their condemnation was Foucault -- were busily avoiding direct political action and engagement. It was, inter alia, an Old Left critique of Posture Politics.) Nice to see a post that manages to get everything quite so totally wrong. Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 00:23:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Electronic writing, approach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Electronic writing, approach Electronic writing is always protocol-based and always dynamic. Keyboard strokes signal interrupts, the screen-image is constantly refreshed, fonts are interchangeable, links and animations may be present, the text may be updated by the original author or modified by others, the text might be deleted once and for all, or temporarily deleted, or duplicated and transformed from one to another site, or printed out hardcopy, or faxed, or entirely transformed into another medium - audio, steganography, online or offline calligraphy, and so forth. The text is fluid, inherently non-canonic, every instance is equivalent to every other, every instance is original and plagiarism. The text is burdened by apparatus from ebook reader to desktop, cellphone to electronic billboard. The text requires maintenance, electrical current, to continue its electronic presence. The text requires the transparency of protocols to be present, presented. The text requires an interface from electronic hardware-software circuitry to visual or other presentation. The text requires busses or connectors from one component to another, and from internal electronics to display. The text also requires data storage, and encoding/decoding as well as the potential well of checksums and other means ensuring minimal errors. If the text is transferred from one hardware medium to another or one file format to another, it requires interoperability - an interoperability which leaves the surface of the text relatively inviolate. The text requires data storage which itself exists within a physical potential well, producing the semblance of at least momentary stability. The text requires light or sound or haptic or other sensors. And the text requires a relatively stable input environment, within which the interrupts are apparently operating smoothly, transmission is relatively clear from infractions or appears clear from such, lag is sufficiently small and the buffer sufficiently large to give the writer/programmer/artist at least a degree of illusory autonomy. Let us not forget that machines, habitus, economy, are required. That the stability of signs and sign systems are required. That mutually understood sememes are required. That languaging among a community of more or less speakers/writers is required. The text itself, per se, requires nothing. Nothing is required unless com- munication, beyond the communication of error, anomaly, distortion, annih- ilation, creation, exchange, displacement, condensation, theft, hack, repetition, meta-transformations or meta-signifiers based on the bracket- ing of the text - unless communication based on at least the semblance of interiority, is desired; in this sense the author is ghost, wraith, close to invisible beyond, beneath, the text, perhaps present at the birth of the text or system or links of text, and perhaps not. And this list, drawn from apparatus, habitus, text, language, economy, catastrophic and stable regimes, may be extended or diminished - the terms are variable, problematic; the 'worldview' stemming from the true world is equally problematic. Nonetheless: The text, and one might of course argue that each and every text is always already dynamic, that such is the nature of communication, written or spoken or otherwise. Still: One might or might not make a distinction between traditional texts and those that are up for grabs in relation to electrical and other dynamic forms of reproduction, whose outputs are also dynamic, at least to the extent of redrawing/rewriting/ rewryting the image or text or social/creative internal and external content and positioning of the text. Now further, what is it that we teach, that is normally taught, if not for the stability of the canon, or stability for that matter of jodi.org or other entities and projects and productions or producings which are not stable whatsoever but are part and parcel of literature today, however such may be defined? Unless literature is confined to the printed page, in which case it is also confined to a relatively small corner of electronic- social life today, that is, confined to a relatively small and perhaps irrelevant corner of life itself. So perhaps it is time, and of course in this space/place I am preaching mainly to the converted, to teach litera- ture as a residue or heartland of the social-technologic, as a production of desire, at least to the extent of the desire to be produced, in rela- tion to literature as theory or language or other artifacture? In spite of the fact that theory is essential to hermeneutics and the reception of literature. In which case, literature might be approached top down, or sides-in, lateral, so that, for example, the existence of the external flash drive, conveniently plugged into a machine for extra memory, operat- ing system, creative software, text repository, would be inherently part of the questions: What, how, why, when, where do we write? Where are our writings deposited? What hope do we have for their survival? What about _this particular text_ within this particular environment - a momentary housing at best? What about momentary housing? Obsolescence? And so forth? From a related discussion with Sandy Baldwin, Frances van Scoy Azure Carter: Given the above, what are the software issues themselves? What are the textual or graphic or other interfaces employed? What are the esthetics of those interfaces? Since every interface both transmits and filters, what are the conditions of transmission, and what is filtered out, what artifacts are added in? Is the interface considered an object or a process (continual updating of beta, name+number (Quicktime 7.4 for example), is it purchased or free, open or closed source? What is the user control over the interface and what is the interface's control over the user? (For example, user-specified fonts may override monospaced fonts in a text apparently involving graphic-ascii or other presentation.) Further, there are phenomenological issues related to traditional media, to media in general: What is the genre-lens we're using in reading/looking at/processing/hearing/etc. a text? What is the history of the genre? Of genre? How does genre relate to canon and is the text considered canonic? Is it considered a finished text, an object, a process, an unfinished text, a variorium, an ur-text, a meta-text, a critique of another exemplary text, a system of procedures or modules or sub-modules? Further, is the text considered part of a cycle? Of a community of texts? Written by one or more authors? Is the user part of a community of users, for example a book club? Was the text written for a community or specific community? What theory, if any, is used to approach the text? What is the text's relation to that theory? To theory? Who wrote, programmed, created, tended, the text? Is the text interactive, reactive, stationary, mobile within the interface, apparently within the user's control, out of the user's control; does it alter the interface framework, collapse or appear to hack into the framework? And is the text designed to be read/viewed/ heard/etc. with a particular viewer in mind? With a particular person or group or groups of people? Finally, is electronic writing textual? Can one speak of an 'electronic text'? Is electronic writing _read_? Are there other ways to approach it? (Is electronic writing an 'it'?) I want to argue against canon, genre, static or state approaches, I want to argue in favor of a general field phenomenology of organism, inscription, inscribing, emanent, machinic and other phyla, wryting and other processes, I want to think through no final solutions, no stages of consciousness, no conclusions, no edifices, no thing, other and no other, I want to argue against this messaying, this lack (what did I forget, what did I leave out, what have I gotten wrong, what don't I know, what did I express poorly if at all?), I want to argue against argument, I want to argue the favor of your - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 00:34:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mathew Timmons Subject: A Reading in Four Dimensions Fri, Feb 8 at 8pm Eagle Rock Center for the Arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline A Reading in Four Dimensions Friday, February 8 at 8pm Eagle Rock Center for the Arts http://www.centerartseaglerock.org/holly.html Please join us for A Reading in Four Dimensions organized by Mathew Timmons= : an evening of performance and poetry exploring the concept of abstraction a= s it pertains to the realm of language. Featuring performances by Harold Abramowitz, Danielle Adair, Jason Brown, Mathew Timmons and Christine Wertheim. A Reading in Four Dimensions is being held in conjunction with the exhibition Possible Impossible Dimension: Six Artists on the Brink of Abstraction curated by Holly Myers at Eagle Rock Center for the Arts, (2225 Colorado Blvd., Eagle Rock, CA 90041, 323 226 1617) on Friday, February 8 a= t 8pm. The exhibition runs from Saturday, January 12 to Saturday, February 16= . Performer Bios: Harold Abramowitz is a writer and teacher from Los Angeles. With Mathew Timmons, Harold co-curates the Late Night Snack literary cabaret series, an= d with Amanda Ackerman, he co-edits a short form literary press called eohippus labs. Harold also has a book, Dear Dearly Departed, to be publishe= d in the near future by Palm Press and a micro-book, Sunday, or a Summer's Day, to be published in the near future by PS Books. He teaches at Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science in Los Angeles. Danielle Adair, performance persona and personhood of Danielle Adair Correll, is an interdisciplinary artist based in Los Angeles. Most recently she has performed at such venues as Los Angeles Contemporary Exhibitions, the Roy and Edna Disney CalArts Theater, the West Hollywood Book Fair, Beyond Baroque, The Smell, the Museum of Contemporary Art Los Angeles, and 21 Grand in San Francisco. Her manuscript, "Selma," examines more specifically the subject matters of psychopathology, Feminism, and institutional narratives addressed in her performances. Jason Brown is director of Superbunker, consigliere of Machine Project, janitor of Betalevel, editor of Obscurantist, creator of BlebNet. He will b= e using a video projector and a theremin. Mathew Timmons is guest editor of Trepan, co-edits Insert Press, co-hosts LA-Lit, and co-curates Betalevel's Late Night Snack. His writings appear in Manufactured Inspirato, Greetings, Disaster, Sleepingfish, P-Queue, Holy Beep!, Outside Voices 2008 Sound Poetry Anthology, Flim Forum, The Physical Poets Vol. 2 and PSBooks. He is the Program Coordinator of CalArts MFA Writing Program, and teaches an interdisciplinary arts workshop and a media writing workshop for CalArts School of Critical Studies. Christine Wertheim is a former painter with a PhD in literature and semiotics from Middlesex University, (UK). She teaches at the California Institute for the Arts for whom she co-organizes an annual writing conference: S=E9ance (2004), Noulipo (2005), Impunities (2006), Feminaissan= ce (2007), ArText (2008). With Matias Viegener she has co-edited two anthologies of contemporary experimental writing: S=E9ance, Make Now Press, 2006, and noulipo, Les Figues Press, 2007. A third, Feminaissance is forthcoming in Fall 2008. The book of her own poetics +|'me'S-pace is published by Les Figues Press, 2007. Christine's work is a poetic investigation of the English tongue, from both sides. Whilst the written version examines the side of the e|e, spoken events highlight what's sigh'd in the vO|dse. ------------------------ Possible Impossible Dimension: Six Artists on the Brink of Abstraction 12 January - 16 February 2008 Dan Bayles Dorsey Dunn Brad Eberhard Max Lesser Chris Natrop Bari Ziperstein Curated by Holly Myers Eagle Rock Center for the Arts 2225 Colorado Blvd. Eagle Rock, CA 90041 (323) 226-1617 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 08:54:56 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roy Exley Subject: Ropy Exley - Re: Screams and cadence Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Alan, Do you know Todd Dockstader's 'Aerial' series of electronic music recordings on Sub Rosa Records? He spent a decade recording the broadcasts, noise, static and interference from short-wave radio and then edited the results into about 80 hours worth of sound then further edited this into 'Aerial' 1,2 & 3 which amounts to about five hours of wonderfully atmospheric sound. If you are interested in electronic music maybe we can share information. Roy Exley. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:02:15 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Vibrant Gray - Blue Issue Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 The Blue Issue of Vibrant Gray is now online! This issue features work by Alexander Jorgensen, Richard Larson, Maggie Gerrity, Geraldine McGowan, Nita Noveno, Caroline Berger, Aaron Koppel, J.D. Smith and Brent A. Fisk. Also, be sure to follow the link on the websiste to our blog where we will putting up videos of our authors reading the work we have featured in the last two issues. We will also be keeping you up to date with the projects the Vibrant Gray editors are working. In return, the editors of Vibrant Gray hope you will let us know what you think of our journal and what you would like to see in the future. Finally, we are hoping to put the next issue of Vibrant Gray online by April, so be sure to get your submissions in. Cheers, The Editors vibrantgray.com http://www.alexanderjorgensen.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:46:30 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: new on Behind the Lines poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy New Year, people: January stuff on http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com Katie Sedon's Arm is a Whitman Poem "Lying Face Down in a Pool of Aesthetics"/Daniel Bourne Matthea Harvey's Modern Life and "The Future of Terror" "Artists Against the War" Online Exhibit Paula McLain's A Ticket to Ride Release Party Student Poetry Reading November 27, 2007 at John Carroll Sami Rasouli, Iraqi-American, the Founder of the MPT Kristen Baumlier is a Petroleum Pop Princess Anna Baltzer, Martin Luther King Jr. and Israel/Palestine Is Disjunctiveness in Poetry Necessarily an Act of Resistance? On Scheerbart's The Development of Aerial Militarism... James Wood on Tolstoy Diane DiPrima's "Rant"/and a Riposte called "Cant"... Robert Cray's "Twenty"/Keeping Our Eyes Wide Open Holzer's Projections of Poetry/Dreamscapes as Big ... Voices in Wartime: First War Resistance Poem, "Lam... Khalil Gibran in The New Yorker Eisenhower's Grandfather Moment The Spinanes' "Lines and Lines"/Imagery Warmups Stanley Fish, on "The Uses of the Humanities" Confronting Orientalism and Anti-Semitism: Salloum... U2's "Beautiful Day"/The First Day of the Semester... What does this noise have to do with revolution?/W... Li-Young Lee's "After the Pyre" (from Poetry Daily... The Political Crisis in Kenya Desire is Desire: Joe Strummer's "Redemption Song"... David-Baptiste Chirot's latest ("The Teller Alone ... Chalmers Johnson Bares All (of Charlie Wilson's Wa... The Sidewalk Blogger's Questioning Equations Poetry and Human Rights/A Web Resource Daniel Heyman's Abu Ghraib Botero Abu Ghraib/"Cut Loose the Body": An Antholo... DC Guerrilla Poetry Insurgency/Some Video Clips of... Be well, Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:01:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: dbCinema does Rem Koolhaas MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit dbCinema does Rem Koolhaas (preliminary) http://vispo.com/dbcinema/koolhaas ja ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hiyas. i'm really serious about production value too for several years in the mid-1990s i worked in recording studios with various producers and then as my own producer some of that was in electro-acoustic environments the delivery of which required dedicated sound "projectionists" such as at UEA electronic music studios and it won't have escaped everybody's notice that a lot of the early sound poetry festival work was presented and even made at Fylkingen in Stockholm, pretty state of the art at that time (mid 1970s) i was involved in alternative radio in the UK over recent years too setting up an RSL with Kirsten Lavers (Radio Taxi) making work for Hearing Is Believing, Tork Radio and Resonance FM i totally agree about Kahn and Whitehead's "The Wireless Imagination" as one source there are several decent books on Radio Art . . . maybe Daina Augaitis and Dan Lander's "Radio Rethink" is my other pick Horspiel . . .German radio Art would be a way to go more generally imo as would more historically the Radio Ballads made by Charles Parker in the 1960s (an inspiration for "Coleridge's Rime of the Ancient Mariner" tnwk made a few years back . . . still some info at http://www.radiotaxi.org.uk/mariner/detail.html) more generally the airwaves in the US are often way too bland but Martin Spinelli's programs "Radio Radio" offer some delights . . . personally i am exploring using Max msp live processing along with Ableton Live BUT . . . i don't tend to do any such thing at "poetry readings" this *might be the first year that i begin to although the poets will likely moan "where's the text?" well they've been saying that for years with me so go figure but . . . and poetry venues aren't generally set up for good sound (i had an exception at Cue in NYC a couple of weeks back so maybe 'things' are gonna get better??) nobody yet mentioned the work that Susan Howe is doing with David Grubbs thanks for raising this discussion love and love cris On Feb 6, 2008 12:09 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > On Feb 5, 2008, at 9:02 AM, Danny Snelson wrote: > > > > but that returns to, i think, the more pressing question of changes in > > dissemination. gregory mostly records for BBC but also releases on > > small > > labels or with galleries. & there was > > TELLUS(we've put a number of > > newly digitized items online recently), but more > > interestingly, there once were networks of cassette exchange. you > > question, > > somewhat bizarrely to my ears, jason, if there are cd-r zines! > > aren't cd-rs > > obsolete with digital network exchange? > > Possibly. I once had a class with Tom Rhea, a fascinating > curmudgeonly man well known in certain circles for having been the > guy who wrote the users manual for the original mini moog > synthesizer, who was fond of commenting that the consumer public is > stupid as evidenced by the fact that they selected the audio cassette > as a favored audio medium over the vastly superior audio quality of > LP records. It's interesting, to me at least, looking at the history > of the distribution of audio that almost at every turn where new > media has always been selected for convenience over sound quality. > Still, there has always been a desire among certain wonkish > audiophile segments of the public, usually people who are serious > rather than casual listeners, for greater fidelity in the recording. > Given that audio poetry requires serious listening, i think it's > possible to make a good case that there are higher standards of > distribution quality (as opposed to production quality where really > anything is fair game) just as is the case with music recordings > aimed at the audiophile demographic. To that end, i think it might be > interesting to treat audio poetry the same way. Granted MP3 is a > pretty good lossy compression algorithm. However, it is still lossy, > and the compression process as a result will always produce audible > artifacts, even at higher bit rates. The idea that there might be a > CD-R or DVD-R distribution is attractive because it allows not just > for compressed audio distribution, but other possibilities like dolby > encoding, CD quality 16bit/44.1khz audio, as well as saving people > the time of downloading and the necessity of maintaining the network > bandwidth for huge audio files. which is a boon for folks like me > whose broadband options are limited or nonexistent because of where > we live. > > Thanks, > Jason > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:47:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Saturday -- Providence, RI -- Marks, Bozicevic, and Shankar In-Reply-To: <45783.63274.qm@web86608.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Justin Marks, Ana Bozicevic-Bowling & Ravi Shankar reading in Providence, RI on 2/9/08 Ada Books and The Publicly Complex Reading Series present a new night of poetry! Justin Marks, Ana Bozicevic-Bowling & Ravi Shankar will read this Saturday, February 9, at 6pm. 330 Dean Street (where it crosses Westminster) Providence, RI http://www.ada-books.com/blog.htm 401.432.6222 There will be free wine and snacks for those who like that sort of thing. Do come! --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 02:17:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: benmazer@AOL.COM Subject: my new book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My new chapbook, The Foundations of Poetry Mathematics, has just been published by Cannibal Books.? It can be viewed/ordered here: http://flesheatingpoems.blogspot.com/2008/02/foundations-of-poetry-mathematics.html Make orders by check or money order to Katy & Matthew Henriksen and send to Matthew Henriksen 95 Clay Street, 3L Brooklyn, NY 11222 Contact?Cannibal/Cannibal Books/Typo/Burning Chair?via email at flesheatingpoems AT yahoo DOT com ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:15:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: Contact info for Michael Slosek and Christophe Casamassima? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anyone have contact info for Michael Slosek and/or Christophe Casamassima? Thanks! Kyle www.kyleschlesinger.com www.cuneiformpress.com www.cuneiformpress.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 08:48:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: <9778b8630802061954p3549c2fbrca2c0164d1aade32@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No. Being a resident of New York doesn't implicate you in the war anymore than my being a resident of Washington, D.C., and having won a D.C. Commission for the Arts grant implicates me with Fenty's administration. I'm not taking my weekly paycheck from Fenty, nor am I involved with their policy decisions. Chomsky is a different matter entirely. Chomsky's position as the leading American intellectual, and his income level puts him in a different league. He doesn't struggle to pay rent, etc. Listen, in many ways I admire the guy. In fact, I sometimes post in the hope that I'll be proven wrong because there's so much info floating around, and it's difficult to discern what is and isn't bullshit. Because the people on buffalo.edu are especially well informed, buffalo seems the perfect forum in which to air my concerns. Ryan Daley wrote: Ok. One more question and then I must retire: So, if New York State voted for the war, and if I receive an artist grant from New York State, am I on par with Chomsky? -Ryan On Feb 6, 2008 8:01 PM, steve russell wrote: > I can only post one more time tonight. Briefly, Chomsky's "Aspects of the Theory of Syntax" was produced with money from the Joint Services Electronic Program (U.S. Army, UlS. Navy, and U.S. Air Force) as well as the U.S. Air Force Electronic Systems Divisions. > When questioned, Chomsky quibs, "Do you think you are not working for the Pentagon? Ask yourself about the origins of the computer and the Internet you are now using." As though I'm equally implicated because I use the computer. Such bullshit. > > Chomsky, our man of the people, is fond of tax shelters. Boston's venerable white-shoe law firm Palmer and Dodge (funny name, Dodge) set up an irrevocable trust to protect his assets from uncle Sam. Chomsky favors the estate tax and massive income redistribution, but not HIS income. > > & he does charge 12,000 dollars a pop for lectures. > > He finds that corporations make damn good investments. He throws his money into blue chips and the TIAA-CREF stock fund. Many of those abhorrent companies he derides isn't reason for him not to profit-- name it, he's fond of oil companies, military contractors, and pharmaceuticals. > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:13:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <629588.71458.qm@web86009.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Concerning Chomsky's portfolio: His reply seems disingenuous. Unless I'm able to buy my produce from a Farmer's market, I, too, am implicated. Chomsky's privileged, but he doesn't care to admitt it. He makes a rather glib case for moral equivilence. Look, I read the guy and admire him. And I hope my assertions are proven wrong. But I've been hearing this stuff for years and these charges, as far as I know, haven't been properly addressed. Barry Schwabsky wrote: C Yikes. See http://www.npboards.com/t8077-noam-chomsky-responds.html: Chomsky wrote: In fact, my stock portfolio is TIIA-CREF, the standard for academic pension funds. But it's totally irrelevant, for the reasons I mentioned, which are understood very well by poor and suffering people, and those who are seriously working for badly needed social change. They don't give a tinker's damn whether you hide what money you have under a mattress or put it in a bank or pension fund, in which case, of course, you'll be part of the corporate system, just as you are when you make a purchase from a corporation. All of this is very familiar. Communist Party hacks constantly condemned dissidents because they wanted to radically change the society, but participated in it and hence benefitted from it. There is, incidentally, a case to be made for socially responsible investment, and there are interesting initiatives that merit support, and contribute in limited ways to badly needed social change, but only in extremely limited ways as compared with the kind of activism that your sources are desperately attempting to undermine. But extricating oneself from the system is simply a major gift to centers of power, a fact obvious to the victims, which is why one hears these absurdities only from people are desperate to protect power and privilege. All pretty obvious, when you think it through. and in response to "...This "socialist" professor charges over $10,000 of dollars for a single appearance." Chomsky wrote: This is a flat lie, as can be discovered with two minutes of research. I never ask for a cent, and if there is an honorarium, I ask that it be given to some appropriate organization like Oxfam or UNESCO or others, and if that can't be done for technical reasons, do so myself. ----- Original Message ---- From: steve russell To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, 6 February, 2008 9:05:52 PM Subject: Chomsky/bought and paid for Shouldn't our intellectuals be held accountable? Chomsky was on the pentagon's pay roll for years. His stock portfolio is anything but progressive. & his speaking fees are exorbitant. He lives in a highly fashionable, pricey Mass suburb. I doubt if he's spoken to a working stiff or non -academic in years. I don't think the guy is a phony, but he is compromised. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 12:26:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <20080206152530.zvdum8siswgswwog@webmail2.ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Gabe: If you raise a position in discussion you take on the reponsibility to answer questions about it. Otherwise discussion would be a matter of exchanging booklists and meeting again in a couple of months (assuming that one had nothing else to do). I'm not hostile to the idea, I just don't buy it. That "'the new' is foremost a means of policing the feminine" is a pretty extraordinary statement. Foremost? This is way beyond oversimplification. But I'm willing to be convinced. Messianic statements seem to be all the rage this political season. I seem to be immune to them. Mark At 04:25 PM 2/6/2008, you wrote: >JP, > >It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer your >questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: the >thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the feminine is not, to >use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt but >undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact arguably >defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but letters in toto. To >even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the biographies >and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this apparently >hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this structure. And I >know that's not your intention. > >Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer you to >DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She says >succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to say on >this list. > >Thanks for your post. > >Gabriel >-- >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com >http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com > ><I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your comment on >some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with >this. From past correspondence with you I suspect that one person in >the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all of >this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well as >how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. > >I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. > >Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics that >you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry >outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine gesture. >Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these particular >poets' work. > >Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in >possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at least >as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've >criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree with >them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and see a >little Hell on earth. > >H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable >pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." > >And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective ideas. >And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. Franklin, >Gilbert & Gubar. > >If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP > > >On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > > [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] > > > > Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, > > cultural criminal or sacred heretic. > > > > Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the "angry > > outsider," the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred > > transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the > > maverick, the criminal. To hang one's shingle as a disinterested > > shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To > > declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet- > > Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one's friends the apocalypse. > > > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to > > tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by > > enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: > > to display one's disinterestedness in profit in order to display > > one's purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display > > one's high mind via one's principled disgust at the sycophancy and > > interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's > > supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the > > literary community. > > > > This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external > > restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one's > > label on it. Iteration of the romantic "single actor" or "small > > cadre" theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all > > cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the > > badboy victim-transgressor author. > > > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of > > all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of > > "anger" or "being a jerk" as a mode of appropriating needs and > > dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor > > masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the > > field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as > > intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw > > attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as > > "the" origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the > > host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck > > drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and > > wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a > > metaphor from Stan Apps: the "transgressor" is a retail product > > that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. > > > > Common tactic: to tout what one does as "shocking" or to start or > > further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked > > as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is > > ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and > > that one will be exonerated by history. > > > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the "sacred heretic" > > is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the > > tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not > > with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as > > a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan > > Kaufman's The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, > > whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered > > by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and > > Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > > > -- > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: On behalf of Rosemary Ceravolo ["Where Abstract Starts" - Joseph Ceravolo Poem] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:28:35 +0000 Subject: "Where Abstract Starts" - Joseph Ceravolo Poem I am happy to report that Joe's poem, "Where Abstract Starts," is published in the current issue of THE NATION. Rosemary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.thenation.com/docprem.mhtml?i=20080218&s=ceravolo review | posted January 31, 2008 (February 18, 2008 issue) Where Abstract Starts Joseph Ceravolo I sit here it is 4:00 Should I say it? Death occurred to me And the fit over bounded My physical thought As I lie here It must be my underlying thought Know now where it comes from Know now where abstract starts I sit here, I lie here It is 4:15 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:31:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <47A7BD65.7060301@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed I'm resending this, as it did not get through the first time...the =20 last part shares Mark Weiss's skepticism re. your global claims about "the new" Let's see, you're working with Bourdieu's concept of the =20 "field" (specifically, that of cultural production, itself located =20 within the field of power); but you're also working with a political "spectrum" (left-right), =20 apparently implying that relations in the field of power can simply be translated into the literary field without =20 refraction (which would not be Bourdieu's position); and then you also use language like "the interconnectedness of all =20 being and emotion"--if your Bourdieuvian account aims at being =20 descriptive, this last phrase sounds pretty damn prescriptive.... ....this unstable (albeit heady!) mixture of sociology and polemic =20 suggests, to me, the perspective of someone who wishes to make an =20 impact _within_ the field...does your work, elsewhere, aim at =20 reflexivity? regards Nick ps--are you arguing that invocations of "the new" are necessarily, =20 transhistorically masculinist? What about the figure of the "New =20 Woman" Were there no transgressive modernist women? Surely, to say =20 such women necessarily contended "in a masculine way" is to simply =20 assume the adequacy of the very gender norms such women were =20 critiquing.... > > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to =20 > tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by =20 > enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: =20 > to display one=92s disinterestedness in profit in order to display =20 > one=92s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display =20 > one=92s high mind via one=92s principled disgust at the sycophancy and = =20 > interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's =20 > supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the =20 > literary community. > > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of =20 > all being and emotion which speaks to the masculine privilege of =20 > =93anger=94 or =93being a jerk=94 as a mode of appropriating needs and = =20 > dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor =20 > masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the =20 > field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as =20 > intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw =20= > attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as =20 > =93the=94 origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the = =20 > host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck =20 > drivers. > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =93sacred heretic=94 = =20 > is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the =20 > tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not =20 > with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as =20 > a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan =20 > Kaufman=92s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, =20= > whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered =20 > by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and =20 > Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > -- V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <20080206152530.zvdum8siswgswwog@webmail2.ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Gabriel, I'd ask you for a little more patience with me. Please don't assume =20 that because I'm questioning your formulation that I'm willing to =20 elide "the truth" of your claims. I asked for clarification of your =20 claims through discussion of representative figures. I intend no =20 hostility, as you note. I'm not willing to concede you're right =20 either, as I see this issue a bit differently. I think. Since discussing particular artists' work--I didn't ask to discuss =20 bios--won't work for you, I'll take you up at The Pink Guitar. It's =20 just this sort of work that I'm coming from. One think that I see going on in this book is that DuPlessis is =20 teasing out the problem of the new and hegemony. She seems to praise =20 The Golden Notebook for its attempts to enact an "anti-authoritarian =20 ethics" at the "level of structure" and says that we call such =20 efforts "new." And she adds that "new" has "signaled antithesis to =20 dominant values." I asked you about Howe in particulate because she's an interesting =20 case when you're dealing with novelty and gendered power. As =20 DuPlessis notes, Howe "works in issues of transcendence" and =20 "impossible political privilege." I really like DuPlessis's =20 suggestion that the question of how to write is a question of how to =20 "gather authority without authoritarian power." Howe often brings the =20= old into a new light and new structure; she refuses, as DuPlessis =20 puts it, to be belated. I'm concerned that we proceed very carefully on this, me and the =20 mouse in my pocket, I suppose, because I don't want to dis-able any =20 woman or feminized, marginal person trying to find a way to work, to =20 "gather authority without authoritarian power." DuPlessis later says in the chapter/essay on Howe: "The female use of =20= this 'feminine' of marginality and the avant garde use of this =20 'feminine' of marginality are mutually reinforcing in the work of =20 some contemporary women: Lyn Hejinian, Kathleen Fraser, Beverly =20 Dahlen and Howe. This mixed allegiance will naturally call into =20 question varieties of flat-footed feminism." So that's very much where I'm coming from when I asked you about =20 cases when you wrote that novelty is a purely masculine gesture, that =20= claiming to possess some truth is a purely masculine attempt to =20 market oneself as Moses from the Mountain with the Tablets(tm). It =20 seems more complicated than that to me. And theories often grow more =20 fuzzy at the edges when you apply them to cases. Respectfully, JP. On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > JP, > > It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer your > questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: the > thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the feminine =20 > is not, to > use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt but > undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact =20 > arguably > defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but letters =20 > in toto. To > even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the =20 > biographies > and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this =20 > apparently > hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this =20 > structure. And I > know that's not your intention. > > Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer you to > DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She says > succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to say =20 > on this list. > > Thanks for your post. > > Gabriel > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com > > < I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your comment on > some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with > this. =46rom past correspondence with you I suspect that one person in > the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all of > this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well as > how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. > > I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. > > Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics that > you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry > outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine gesture. > Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these particular > poets' work. > > Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in > possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at least > as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've > criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree with > them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and see a > little Hell on earth. > > H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable > pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." > > And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective ideas. > And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. Franklin, > Gilbert & Gubar. > > If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP > > > On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >> [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] >> >> Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, >> cultural criminal or sacred heretic. >> >> Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the =93angry >> outsider,=94 the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred >> transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the >> maverick, the criminal. To hang one=92s shingle as a disinterested >> shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To >> declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet- >> Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one=92s friends the apocalypse. >> >> Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to >> tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by >> enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: >> to display one=92s disinterestedness in profit in order to display >> one=92s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display >> one=92s high mind via one=92s principled disgust at the sycophancy = and >> interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's >> supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the >> literary community. >> >> This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external >> restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one=92s >> label on it. Iteration of the romantic =93single actor=94 or =93small >> cadre=94 theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all >> cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the >> badboy victim-transgressor author. >> >> There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of >> all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of >> =93anger=94 or =93being a jerk=94 as a mode of appropriating needs = and >> dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor >> masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the >> field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as >> intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw >> attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as >> =93the=94 origin rather than one result of the entire work done by = the >> host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck >> drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and >> wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a >> metaphor from Stan Apps: the =93transgressor=94 is a retail product >> that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. >> >> Common tactic: to tout what one does as =93shocking=94 or to start or >> further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked >> as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is >> ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and >> that one will be exonerated by history. >> >> Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =93sacred heretic=94 >> is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the >> tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not >> with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as >> a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan >> Kaufman=92s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, >> whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered >> by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and >> Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). >> >> -- >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail. JP Craig http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:07:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ha! so we can only attack the lucrative. Cool. Good to know. Thanks. Ryan On Feb 6, 2008 11:33 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > If by "on par" you mean as open to criticism, then no. You haven't achieved > enough to be worth attacking by any available means yet. > > On Feb 6, 2008 7:54 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: > > > Ok. One more question and then I must retire: > > > > So, if New York State voted for the war, and if I receive an artist > > grant from New York State, am I on par with Chomsky? > > > > -Ryan > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:52:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Contact info for Michael Slosek and Christophe Casamassima? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try this for chris ccasamassima@towson.edu On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:15:09 -0500 Kyle Schlesinger writes: > Anyone have contact info for Michael Slosek and/or Christophe > Casamassima? > > Thanks! > > Kyle > www.kyleschlesinger.com > www.cuneiformpress.com > www.cuneiformpress.blogspot.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:30:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: **Last Call Redux: Advertise in Boog City 48** Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, We=B9re going to press with Boog City 48 late Fri. night/early Sat. morning, and are in need of a few more ads to help us meet our printing and distribution costs. An 1/8-page horizontal ad=8BW-4.864=B2 x H-3.5=B2=8Bis just $40. (Larger sizes are also available.) So advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise you= r new albums, indie labels your new releases. You can email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG (2664) for more information.=20 The new issue will feature: --a Jim Behrle 2008 presidential race comic --Kristin Prevallet on The Ameritopian Dream --Alan Davies reviews Martha Oatis=B9 from Two Percept and Clint Burnham=B9s Rental Van --Jocelyn Mackenzie reviews the new Jerry Cherry album Life is Sweeter=8A --Justin Remer reviews the Friend Factory=B9s new releases The Hillside EP an= d Comeuppance --Gary Sullivan reviews Cargo, comic journalism which features the results of three cartoonists from Berlin visiting Israel and three from Tel Aviv visiting Germany and each reporting on their experiences in comics --art from Thomas Fink --poems from Lisa Cohen, Se=E1n M. Dalpiaz, Tom Orange, and Charles Rossiter We here at Boog City thank you, as always, for your support. as ever, David --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:13:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project February In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable These are the upcoming readings at The Poetry Project: Monday, February 11, 6 PM Urban Word NYC 10th Annual Urban Word NYC Teen Poetry Slam, preliminary round. For more information go to urbanwordnyc.org. Wednesday, February 13, 8 PM Michael Gottlieb & Jessica Grim Michael Gottlieb=B9s newest book, The Likes Of Us, has just been brought out by Harry Tankoos Books. He also is the author of over a dozen books and chapbooks, including Lost and Found - which includes the 9/11 poem "The Dust," Gorgeous Plunge, The River Road, and New York. His recent criticism includes assessments of Flarf, Proust and Jackson Mac Low. A long, long tim= e ago - before he had to shave every day - he was one of the editors of Roof Magazine. Jessica Grim's most recent book is Vexed, online from Ubu Edition= s at ubu.com. Other books of poetry include Fray, Locale, and The Inveterate Life. She co-edited Big Allis, a magazine focusing on experimental writing by women, from 1989-1996, and has participated in writing communities in th= e Bay Area, New York, and the Cleveland area. She continues to live, write, and work in Oberlin, Ohio, where she=B9s collection development librarian at Oberlin College. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:57:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amish Trivedi Subject: Re: On behalf of Rosemary Ceravolo ["Where Abstract Starts" - Joseph Ceravolo Poem] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Excellent! Pass on my hearty congrats to Rosemary! Best, Amish Poetics List wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:28:35 +0000 Subject: "Where Abstract Starts" - Joseph Ceravolo Poem I am happy to report that Joe's poem, "Where Abstract Starts," is published in the current issue of THE NATION. Rosemary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.thenation.com/docprem.mhtml?i=20080218&s=ceravolo review | posted January 31, 2008 (February 18, 2008 issue) Where Abstract Starts Joseph Ceravolo I sit here it is 4:00 Should I say it? Death occurred to me And the fit over bounded My physical thought As I lie here It must be my underlying thought Know now where it comes from Know now where abstract starts I sit here, I lie here It is 4:15 "Christopher Columbus, as everyone knows, is honored by posterity because he was the last to discover America." -James Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:20:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Grieco Subject: Re: Roy Exley - Re: The drip drip drip of life as it erodes theory In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Roy, I appreciate your images here of words gettin sucked down this mesmerizing vortwx, so inviting & so empty, never to really accumulate, lost yet somewhere, where poetry DOES seem to "live" in the sense of has a code to be retrieved (all I have to do is type in the word or a name), not spirit but the merest ghost of matter that matters continually with the scantiest of possible implications. But I'm not sure what it has to do with theory or beauty. What happens in cyberspace doesn't really happen at all, perhaps this is what you mean, that "it" whatever might happen has to be taken outside, as in outside the text? By someone some how. But if that's true, why do I always end up back here? I apologise for rambling, but I thought you deserved a reponse. Thanks Peter --- Roy Exley wrote: > Poetry has to be a dynamic living entity, has to > assert its vitality, to > retain a connection with its evolutionary urge - > theory has to continually > re-invent itself to avoid extinction - life is > fighting a losing battle > against entropy, but unless it evolves at a rapidly > accelerating rate, > theory is already dead in the water. The written > word is undergoing > cataclysmic change as it is increasingly released > into cyberspace while its > paper-bound cousin becomes more exclusive and > elitist. The digital ether > voraciously consumes the torrent of words that > enters its apparently > infinite spaces. As the potential for accessibility > increases so the routes > of access proliferate and the number of permutations > for access swell, so we > have the paradox of a more accessible generation of > digital poetry that gets > lost in the complexities of its medium. Theory > simply can't keep up with the > proliferation of the word in cyberspace, like a > hunter submarine whose > technology is being perpetually superceded by that > of its prey, the drip > drip drip of life, whose entropy assails theory, has > been superceded by the > torrent of text in cyberspace, so instead of a > relentless erosion, theory is > now threatened with rapid annihilation. Poetry > continues to evolve and to > exceed its parameters, so we must be increasingly > flexible in the way that > we perceive and receive it while theory is > increasingly threatened by the > sharpness of its cutting edge. If beauty has been > consigned by theory to the > role of romantic anachronism, then the sublime > spaces of cyberspace have > out-manouevred theory and re-established a need and > a desire for beauty, > beauty has evolved, has been transmuted and poetry > must discover is new > codes. Forget theory as it vainly fights extinction, > focus in on a newly > re-invented beauty. As Derrida's 'Metaphysics of > Presence' challenges the > hegemony of western philosophy, so poetry needs to > beak new ground and shrug > of the constrictions of theory. I am sorely hoping > that this proposition of > mine will be addressed, in contrast to my last three > contributions, that > have been totally and irrevocably ignored - am I > trying in vain to break > into an elitist circle here? Or is there room for a > divergence of dialogue? > > Roy Exley. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:06:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: <4AC0CABE-6C2B-455D-851E-C4B0562CEA8E@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Hi J.P. you guys are losing me in the critical theory here, it's alien to the intel= lectual tradition i generally find myself and my favorite thinkers thinking= in, but i want to follow because it looks like an interesting discussion. = what's the ethical problem with taking oneself to be moses from the mountai= n with the tablets(tm)? how are authority and authoritarian power defined h= ere? the statement about "gathering authority without authoritarian power" = looks like a bit of a pun to me? in what way is an artists ethical stance a= masculine one or a feminine one? and how does their work have to do with t= he masculinity or feminity of their stance? Can you help me out by filling = in some of the background theory that I'm apparently missing here? because = I'm honestly lost. I had a professor once who was fond of saying "I know wh= at all the words you just used mean, but when you put them together in that= way,=20 I don't know what you're saying." I feel like I'm very much in the same boa= t. I don't think Gabe wants to talk to me, because he didn't answer my ques= tions in this thread earier, so maybe I'll have better luck with you. Thanks, Jason On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, J.P. Craig wrote: > Gabriel, > I'd ask you for a little more patience with me. Please don't assume that= =20 > because I'm questioning your formulation that I'm willing to elide "the t= ruth"=20 > of your claims. I asked for clarification of your claims through discussi= on of=20 > representative figures. I intend no hostility, as you note. I'm not willi= ng to=20 > concede you're right either, as I see this issue a bit differently. I thi= nk. > > Since discussing particular artists' work--I didn't ask to discuss bios--= won't=20 > work for you, I'll take you up at The Pink Guitar. It's just this sort of= work=20 > that I'm coming from. > > One think that I see going on in this book is that DuPlessis is teasing o= ut the=20 > problem of the new and hegemony. She seems to praise The Golden Notebook = for=20 > its attempts to enact an "anti-authoritarian ethics" at the "level of=20 > structure" and says that we call such efforts "new." And she adds that "n= ew"=20 > has "signaled antithesis to dominant values." > > I asked you about Howe in particulate because she's an interesting case w= hen=20 > you're dealing with novelty and gendered power. As DuPlessis notes, Howe = "works=20 > in issues of transcendence" and "impossible political privilege." I reall= y like=20 > DuPlessis's suggestion that the question of how to write is a question of= how=20 > to "gather authority without authoritarian power." Howe often brings the = old=20 > into a new light and new structure; she refuses, as DuPlessis puts it, to= be=20 > belated. > > I'm concerned that we proceed very carefully on this, me and the mouse in= my=20 > pocket, I suppose, because I don't want to dis-able any woman or feminize= d,=20 > marginal person trying to find a way to work, to "gather authority withou= t=20 > authoritarian power." > > DuPlessis later says in the chapter/essay on Howe: "The female use of thi= s=20 > 'feminine' of marginality and the avant garde use of this 'feminine' of= =20 > marginality are mutually reinforcing in the work of some contemporary wom= en:=20 > Lyn Hejinian, Kathleen Fraser, Beverly Dahlen and Howe. This mixed allegi= ance=20 > will naturally call into question varieties of flat-footed feminism." > > So that's very much where I'm coming from when I asked you about cases wh= en you=20 > wrote that novelty is a purely masculine gesture, that claiming to posses= s some=20 > truth is a purely masculine attempt to market oneself as Moses from the= =20 > Mountain with the Tablets(tm). It seems more complicated than that to me.= And=20 > theories often grow more fuzzy at the edges when you apply them to cases. > > Respectfully, JP. > > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >> JP, >>=20 >> It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer your >> questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: the >> thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the feminine is no= t,=20 >> to >> use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt but >> undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact arguably >> defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but letters in to= to.=20 >> To >> even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the biograp= hies >> and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this apparen= tly >> hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this structure. = And=20 >> I >> know that's not your intention. >>=20 >> Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer you to >> DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She says >> succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to say on thi= s=20 >> list. >>=20 >> Thanks for your post. >>=20 >> Gabriel >> -- >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com >> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com >>=20 >> <> I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your comment on >> some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with >> this. From past correspondence with you I suspect that one person in >> the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all of >> this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well as >> how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. >>=20 >> I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. >>=20 >> Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics that >> you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry >> outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine gesture. >> Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these particular >> poets' work. >>=20 >> Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in >> possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at least >> as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've >> criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree with >> them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and see a >> little Hell on earth. >>=20 >> H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable >> pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." >>=20 >> And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective ideas. >> And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. Franklin, >> Gilbert & Gubar. >>=20 >> If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP >>=20 >>=20 >> On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >>=20 >>> [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] >>>=20 >>> Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, >>> cultural criminal or sacred heretic. >>>=20 >>> Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the =E2=80=9Cangry >>> outsider,=E2=80=9D the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacr= ed >>> transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the >>> maverick, the criminal. To hang one=E2=80=99s shingle as a disintereste= d >>> shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To >>> declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet- >>> Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one=E2=80=99s friends the apocalyps= e. >>>=20 >>> Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to >>> tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by >>> enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: >>> to display one=E2=80=99s disinterestedness in profit in order to displa= y >>> one=E2=80=99s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display >>> one=E2=80=99s high mind via one=E2=80=99s principled disgust at the syc= ophancy and >>> interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's >>> supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the >>> literary community. >>>=20 >>> This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external >>> restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one=E2=80= =99s >>> label on it. Iteration of the romantic =E2=80=9Csingle actor=E2=80=9D o= r =E2=80=9Csmall >>> cadre=E2=80=9D theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of al= l >>> cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the >>> badboy victim-transgressor author. >>>=20 >>> There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of >>> all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of >>> =E2=80=9Canger=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cbeing a jerk=E2=80=9D as a mode of = appropriating needs and >>> dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor >>> masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the >>> field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as >>> intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw >>> attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as >>> =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D origin rather than one result of the entire work = done by the >>> host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck >>> drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and >>> wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a >>> metaphor from Stan Apps: the =E2=80=9Ctransgressor=E2=80=9D is a retail= product >>> that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. >>>=20 >>> Common tactic: to tout what one does as =E2=80=9Cshocking=E2=80=9D or t= o start or >>> further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked >>> as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is >>> ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and >>> that one will be exonerated by history. >>>=20 >>> Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =E2=80=9Csacred heret= ic=E2=80=9D >>> is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the >>> tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not >>> with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as >>> a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan >>> Kaufman=E2=80=99s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly left= ist, >>> whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered >>> by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and >>> Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). >>>=20 >>> -- >>> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >>> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ >>=20 >>=20 >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail. > > > > JP Craig > http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:07:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: <9778b8630802071307w7d9cc4f4jf544792fb83899d6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed lesson for the day: the best defense against home invasion is to live in perpetual poverty. On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Ryan Daley wrote: > Ha! so we can only attack the lucrative. > > Cool. Good to know. > > Thanks. > > Ryan > > On Feb 6, 2008 11:33 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: >> If by "on par" you mean as open to criticism, then no. You haven't achieved >> enough to be worth attacking by any available means yet. >> >> On Feb 6, 2008 7:54 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: >> >>> Ok. One more question and then I must retire: >>> >>> So, if New York State voted for the war, and if I receive an artist >>> grant from New York State, am I on par with Chomsky? >>> >>> -Ryan >>> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: rob at the University of Calgary; Comments: To: lexiconjury@yahoogroups.com Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT if yr in Calgary, come here me read at the University; Monday, February 11, 2008 7:30 pm The Rozsa Centre, Husky Oil Great Hall, U of C Free Public Reading rob mclennan 2007 - 2008 University of Alberta Writer-in-Residence rob mclennan, the current writer-in-residence at the University of Alberta, reads new poems and from Missing Persons, his novel-in-progress. rob comes to Calgary courtesy of an exchange program between the Markin-Flanagan program and the U of A Department of English. Each year, these institutions host the other school's writer-in-residence for free public events. The reading is free. All are welcome. A book signing and reception follow the reading. http://www.ucalgary.ca/markinflanagan/events -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:53:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: On behalf of Rosemary Ceravolo ["Where Abstract Starts" - Joseph Ceravolo Poem] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think this is one of Joe's later (last?) poems. I heard passages from this later in a memorial reading for him at The Poetry Project which his family (wife and children) attended. None of these poems were included in the published collection oh his word. I wondered why. They were to me remarkable pieces.There is I think an attempt to project basically as a New York poet (an "experimentor" with words), and these later poems do not quite fit the mold. This might be one reason why it has been so difficult to get Joe's work disseminated to a wider circle. One senses that one is missing the coplete picture. Ciao, Murat On Feb 7, 2008 6:09 PM, Poetics List wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:28:35 +0000 > Subject: "Where Abstract Starts" - Joseph Ceravolo Poem > I am happy to report that Joe's poem, "Where Abstract Starts," > is published in the current issue of THE NATION. > > Rosemary > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > http://www.thenation.com/docprem.mhtml?i=20080218&s=ceravolo > > > > review | posted January 31, 2008 (February 18, 2008 issue) > Where Abstract Starts > Joseph Ceravolo > > I sit here it is 4:00 > Should I say it? > Death occurred to me > And the fit over bounded > My physical thought > As I lie here > It must be my underlying thought > Know now where it comes from > Know now where abstract starts > I sit here, I lie here > It is 4:15 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:12:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: 2 events i have a share in next week in Providence if u can make either Comments: To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed * Providence, RI, USA *** *** two distinct events with a shared performative subject position *** * * The Program @ Firehouse 13 presents: John Sparrow (UK) . Angela Veomett (Providence) . cris cheek (UK) Tuesday February 12, 8pm; details: http://plantarchy.us/the-program Poetry-Video-Music-Performance-Food-Drinks * * Brown University Literary Arts Program, & (apparently) 'Digital Arts International, plc (DAIPLC)' present: cris cheek (UK) . Justin Katko (PVD) Thursday February 14, 7pm, McCormack Family Theatre, 70 Brown St/ Fones Alley details: http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Literary_Arts/events.htm * * Artist Bios cris cheek is a poet, book maker, sound artist, mixed-media practitioner and interdisciplinary performer, whose texts have been commissioned and shown locally and trans-locally, often in multiple versions using diverse media for their production and circulation. His most recent work is a full body of collaboration(s) with Kirsten Lavers as TNWK (http://www.thingsnotworthkeeping.com). His most recent publication is the church - the school - the beer from Critical Documents (http://plantarchy.us/home.html). cris cheek is Brown University's visiting E-Writing Resident, Spring 2008. Justin Katko is Brown's most recent MFA candidate in Electronic Writing. He edits the poetry journal Plantarchy and makes work in diverse media. He is currently working on a long poem called The Dope on the Arch of the Dust. John Sparrow is researching a PhD in Digital Media and Poetics at Royal Holloway, University of London. He will be performing 'Ideas on Oedipal Bitstreams,' an ongoing work in response to Brian Kim Stefans' 'Rational Geomancy.' In 'Ideas on Oedipal Bitstreams,' the text is placed between the extremes of printed fixity and dynamic movement in the Flash environment. http://www.itchaway.net Angela Veomett is currently a PhD student in Brown University's MEME department. In 2006-2007 she was a visiting instructor of Technology in Music and the Related Arts at Oberlin Conservatory. She received an M.A. in Media Arts at the University of Michigan in 2006 and a BA in Musicology at the University of Minnesota in 2003. Angela has created artworks in several new media genres, including sound/video installation, multimedia performance, video art, and web art. Her work explores issues behind human communication, group dynamics, and how the physical world influences these ideas. http://www.angelaveomett.com * * *** please post/forward this intel to other interested parties *** . . . . . . . . John Cayley Literary Arts Program - Box 1923 Brown University Providence, RI 02912 USA office: +1 401 863 3966 . . . . . . . . writing digital media http://writingdigitalmedia.org personal site: http://programmatology.shadoof.net/ ___________ with apologies for cross-posting . . . . . . . . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:34:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Just make sure that it's visible poverty but not so visible that you look like a trustafarian college student. On Feb 7, 2008 5:07 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > lesson for the day: the best defense against home invasion is to live in > perpetual poverty. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:13:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <45783.63274.qm@web86608.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Feb 6, 2008, at 9:09 PM, ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: > > (That was one of the subtexts of Sokal and Bricomart's > _Intellectual Impostures_ that everyone commenting on > the book seemed to ignore [another was the amount of > space devoted to epistimology] Intellectual Impostures had epistemology in it? That's strange, because everything i've read of Alan Sokal's on the topic of his so- called science wars make it clear to me at least that he doesn't know what he's talking about. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:21:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <334944.24926.qm@web52404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Feb 7, 2008, at 9:13 AM, steve russell wrote: > Concerning Chomsky's portfolio: His reply seems disingenuous. > Unless I'm able to buy my produce from a Farmer's market, I, too, > am implicated. Chomsky's privileged, but he doesn't care to admitt > it. He makes a rather glib case for moral equivilence. > > Look, I read the guy and admire him. And I hope my assertions are > proven wrong. But I've been hearing this stuff for years and these > charges, as far as I know, haven't been properly addressed. Calls for socially responsible investing by individuals in stocks and bonds is based on the flawed premise that buying stock in a company somehow implies endorsement of that company or support for that company. It's not. It's just a form of gambling. There are no more any moral implications for buying shares in Exxon then there are for deciding to stand on two kings in black jack. the only time the money a person spends on a stock has anything to do with that company are when the purchase is of stock during a period when the company itself is selling shares, and even then that purchase is so far removed from what happens when an individual puts some money away in his 401k or 503b or IRA or whatever, that there's no ethical component to it whatsoever. Socially responsible investing is sold to people who don't understand what stocks are in order to let them feel like they are doing something good when really they're just being pragmatic and hedging their bets against the frailty of their declining years. There's no shame in that, but the fact that the kind of investing that "socially responsible" investment firms peddle is based almost entirely on a marketing strategy designed to stroke their clients vanity ought to make anybody who is paying attention and the least bit cynical look at them with a great deal of skepticism. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 22:02:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i sent this earlier but for some reason it didn't make it through. have added to this version, so don't worry about the last version. murat mentioned the idea that writing isn't solely a transcript of speech, that its materiality is obviously different from speech, and this opens writing to all sorts of things that can't happen in speech. and, conversely, writing can't be sound poetry. writing can only write about some things that sound poetry can truly be. writing isn't primal like sound poetry can be. writing isn't music like sound poetry can be. sound poetry is no code of the page or the screen or even the recording, at times. body not included. performance space not included. etc. we can think of recorded sound as a type of writing. the 'page' looks like a timeline that has multiple channels. And each channel can have multiple divisions into different cuts. as in the interface to a multi-track recording piece of software such as http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/images/ss/lg/acidpro6-callouts.jpg , which is the interface to Acid, a popular multi-track recording/editing piece of software. this is the architecture of film also, only the basic unit in film is the frame + sound, whereas in sound it's the file or, more granularly, the sample. you can edit both audio and video in Acid. audio and film are spatialized, as a writing space, into a two dimensional timeline with channels. just as typographic writing spatializes language into lines. interactive audio replaces the timeline paradigm with that of the flowchart (e.g. http://bayimg.com/oAFLFAaBC ). flowcharts allow for decisions. director, flash, max, and other multimedia/programming authoring tools are hybrid timeline/flowchart media writing spaces. the director interface is shown in http://vispo.com/temp/directorInterface.gif . this is a screenshot of dbCinema in director. the interface metaphors of director are mixed. there's the "stage", which is the area the viewer views. and the "score", which is the timeline; it is populated with "sprites" to which are attached "behaviors". for instance, the "sprite" in channel 142 of the "Score" is the text on the stage that says "DefaultBrushSet". That "sprite" has various "behaviors" attached to it, including a script called "BrushSet indicator". That script is shown in the script window. There's also the "Cast" window. The "Cast" window stores media elements such as texts, pictures, sounds, videos, and so on, and also programming scripts or "behaviors". We can think of the things in the "Cast" window as classes, and the things in the "Score" or timeline as objects; objects are instantiations of classes. There's also the "Property Inspector" window. It shows the properties of whatever "sprite" in the "Score" or on the "Stage" is selected. In the screenshot, it shows some of the properties of "sprite" 142. There's also the "Object Inspector". It allows one to view the properties of code objects, which are instantiations of script classes stored in the "Cast" window. In the screenshot, it displays some of the values of gBrushSetManager, which in dbCinema is a "sprite" that stores the brushes that paint in dbCinema. The "playback head" in the "Score" is at frame 130. In programmed multimedia works, unlike films, the "playback head" skips around, rather than simply proceeding from beginning to end. Also, unlike film, what's in a particular frame can change from instant to instant; many Director 'movies' are one frame long but are diverse from instant to instant. Such diverse one-frame movies are programmerly. Less programmerly Director authors of course use the "Score" in a more filmicly paradigmatic way. Anyway, it's useful to see audio production and multimedia production as a type of writing. Usually it's called, somewhat awkwardly, "authoring", and multi-track sound recording software packages are usually called sound editing packages, and stuff like Premiere and Final Cut Pro, video production software, is usually also referred to as "editing" software. But people who know what they're doing with this sort of software are doing way more than editing stuff. Of course, when we write in Word or other word processors, these are "editing" packages as well, but we don't simply edit with them; we write with them. In the transition from orality to literacy, we see the poem change a lot, and we see notions of poetry change a lot. That's still in progress. As Murat points out Silliman points out. In the transition from print literacy to electric literacy, poetry and writing and what it means to write and be a writer undergo similarly large extensions. Not that the book and the page are going to disappear. I don't think they are. But the whole enterprise of writing is significantly enlarged. Let me also point out that writers are well-suited to swim in electric media, particularly digital media. Because computers are language machines, written language machines. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:38:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit JP, Part of the issue appears to be you think I wrote something I didn't write. Your paraphrase of me is incorrect. (As is, incidentally, the quotation Mark Weiss attributes to me). You say I "wrote that novelty is a purely masculine gesture." I did not write that. Here are a few things I said that I think you might be referring to. - "My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to 'disappear' women from a variety of literary scenes." - "Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the 'new' is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine." - "I would only repeat again that within the AG fields (fields that especially fetishize the new) there seems to be a *worse* track record regarding women." - "And if one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out." None of those quotes displays a risky or even shocking reading of homosociality in the literary field. If you think so, okay. I'm not going to debate these points. It's like debating if the sky is composed of air and jets. I'm not sure where you're going with your quotations from /Pink Guitar/. If I were to point to a section of the book that clearly shows the concerns DuPlessis has about the structural issues of gender in the literary field across the decades, I'd suggest the section entitled, "Feminist Poetics, Modernism, and the Avant Garde." (Maybe I'll post some to my blog, for good measure). If you wanted a very strong exhaustive study of homosociality in the AG, Michael Davidson's /Guys Like Us: Citing Masculinity in Cold War Poetics/ (focusing mostly on '50s and '60s). Thanks for your polite posts. They're the only kind I reply to. Gabriel -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ < JP, > > It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer your > questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: the > thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the feminine > is not, to > use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt but > undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact > arguably > defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but letters > in toto. To > even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the > biographies > and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this > apparently > hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this > structure. And I > know that's not your intention. > > Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer you to > DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She says > succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to say > on this list. > > Thanks for your post. > > Gabriel > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com > > < I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your comment on > some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with > this. From past correspondence with you I suspect that one person in > the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all of > this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well as > how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. > > I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. > > Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics that > you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry > outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine gesture. > Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these particular > poets' work. > > Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in > possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at least > as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've > criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree with > them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and see a > little Hell on earth. > > H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable > pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." > > And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective ideas. > And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. Franklin, > Gilbert & Gubar. > > If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP > > > On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >> [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] >> >> Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, >> cultural criminal or sacred heretic. >> >> Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the “angry >> outsider,” the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred >> transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the >> maverick, the criminal. To hang one’s shingle as a disinterested >> shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To >> declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet- >> Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one’s friends the apocalypse. >> >> Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to >> tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by >> enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: >> to display one’s disinterestedness in profit in order to display >> one’s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display >> one’s high mind via one’s principled disgust at the sycophancy and >> interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's >> supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the >> literary community. >> >> This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external >> restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one’s >> label on it. Iteration of the romantic “single actor” or “small >> cadre” theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all >> cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the >> badboy victim-transgressor author. >> >> There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of >> all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of >> “anger” or “being a jerk” as a mode of appropriating needs and >> dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor >> masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the >> field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as >> intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw >> attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as >> “the” origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the >> host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck >> drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and >> wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a >> metaphor from Stan Apps: the “transgressor” is a retail product >> that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. >> >> Common tactic: to tout what one does as “shocking” or to start or >> further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked >> as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is >> ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and >> that one will be exonerated by history. >> >> Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the “sacred heretic” >> is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the >> tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not >> with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as >> a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan >> Kaufman’s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, >> whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered >> by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and >> Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). >> >> -- >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail. JP Craig http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 06:35:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nic Sebastian Subject: ten questions on publication In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For anyone wrestling with the practical and existential dilemmas posed by p= ublication, I have started a new Ten Questions series on my blog, Very Like= A Whale, asking up to ten poets to answer questions about the publication = process.=20 =20 Kristy Bowen is up first, her responses can be read http://verylikeawhale.w= ordpress.com/2008/02/07/ten-questions-2-kristy-bowen/=20 =20 The plan is to post a new set of responses weekly for the next ten weeks. D= o email me off-line if you would like to be one of the featured poets.=20 =20 Best,=20 =20 Nic Sebastian http://verylikeawhale.wordpress.com = ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:45:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jason, I disagree about yr point on stocks. Yes, it is gambling. But it isn't like a straight game of poker between pals, it is more like playing a game of poker with your (or my) friend Susie who we all know, upon winning, will use the money for meth/alcohol/twinkies, or some such horribly destructive purchase. Because I care about Susie, I may refuse to engage in any activity in which the end result is harmful to my friend. In much the same way, my man-wife and I do try to keep our (hilariously small) amount of stocks money invested in things we feel okay making money from. Because we all know we're giving UniSolar or whomever money to further their company, I figure (for my part) that I'll want to not feel guilty about what making money from a stock (gambling) means, or how it was made. On the other hand, I don't care about Chomsky's personal finances, etc. Why, if the prevailing opinion in the poetry world, is that we can read Ezra pound because his work is separate from his life and beliefs, does it even matter? You know, when you get right down to it, everyone is a tool of "the man", everyone is a creep. Some people are okay with that, some people fight it, some people try very hard to disengage from that. More power to all of them. I can't understand for the life of me why people are karate-chopping Chomsky over his money when he works hard to make life better for other people. I can think of many other people to hack at: Ralph Nader, Angelina Jolie (seriously, who talks to refugees in Iraq or the African continent wearing 800 dollar pants?) We can be mad at everyone. I obviously have decided who I will be angry with. But I don't know how productive it is. (That said, I have spent the past 5-7 years hating Tom Brady, so take all of this with a grain of salt.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:20:49 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gareth Farmer Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "If there was one who lived wholly without the use of money, the State itself would hesitate to demand it of him. But the rich man - not to make any invidious comparison - is always sold to the institution which makes him rich. Absolutely speaking, the more money the less virtue [...] The best thing a man can do for his culture when he is rich, is to endeavour to carry out those schemes which he entertained when he was poor." Henry David Thoreau 'Resistance to Civil Government' --On 07 February 2008 19:34 -0800 Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > Just make sure that it's visible poverty but not so visible that you look > like a trustafarian college student. > > On Feb 7, 2008 5:07 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> lesson for the day: the best defense against home invasion is to live in >> perpetual poverty. >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:25:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: NPF Conference on the 1970s Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear Friends on the NPF, Though we at the National Poetry Foundation have had to weather a hard season of loss in these past few months, we are nevertheless pressing ahead with plans for our summer conference on The Poetry of the 1970s. We are very pleased to announce that Rae Armantrout, Nicole Brossard, Clark Coolidge, Jayne Cortez, and Bernadette Mayer have agreed to give plenary poetry readings. And we expect to have more good news on that front in the coming days. The Conference will take place June 11-15, 2008, here at the University of Maine. It will be similar in shape and scope to previous "decade" conferences, but will also feature some innovations. For instance, we'll be collaborating for the first time with both the UMaine Museum of Art and the Colby College Museum of Art to bring the visual arts into the mix. And we'll have a videographer on hand not just to document the plenary proceedings, but also to do studio sessions intended for future webcasting with the many poets (and poet-scholars) who will be in attendance. We'll be making a more concerted use of new media and web resources than in the past. And we expect that a variety of NPF print publications will grow out of the Conference as well. Naturally, a celebration of the lives and accomplishments of Sylvester Pollet and Burton Hatlen is being planned in conjunction with our traditional lobster banquet. We invite paper and panel proposals on all aspects of poetic practice in the Seventies. We also seek scholars and writers who would be willing to serve as panel Chairs. Special registration rates are available for graduate students, independent, and international scholars. Proposal guidelines can be found here: http://www.nationalpoetryfoundation.org/news/index.php/article/ 2007/10/15/poetry_of_the_1970s We will begin considering proposals on February 15th. The deadline for proposals is March 31, 2008. Proposals, along with any queries about the proposal process, should be sent electronically to Steven dot Evans at Maine dot Edu (or by reply to this message) More information about the Conference is available at our recently revamped website: http://www.nationalpoetryfoundation.org/ The site is set up to facilitate on-line registration for the Conference. As an incentive for early registration, we will be offering discounts on NPF journal subscriptions and books. On-campus accommodations are available at a reasonable rate through the NPF. We'd also be happy to advise conference participants as to other nearby lodging options and to offer tips on traveling to and from the Bangor area. We appreciate your help in spreading the word about this Conference and hope you'll seriously consider joining us this summer in Orono! On behalf of the Conference Steering Committee consisting of Carla Billitteri, Benjamin Friedlander, Jennifer Moxley, and myself, all best wishes, Steve Evans * * * * Associate Professor of English Graduate Studies Coordinator New Writing Series Coordinator NPF Editorial Collective Member 313 Neville Hall University of Maine Orono, ME 04469 207-581-3818 www.thirdfactory.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:38:18 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roy Exley Subject: Roy Exley - Re: Peter Grieco Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Peter, Thanks for your reply to my 'drip drip drip' rant, you've restored my faith in the art of dialogue! Granted it is a long stretch from the death of theory to a resurgence of beauty in cyberspace and you are obviously referring to my passage :- 'If beauty has been consigned by theory to the role of romantic anachronism, then the sublime spaces of cyberspace have out-manouevred theory and re-established a need and a desire for beauty, beauty has evolved, has been transmuted and poetry must discover it's new codes. Forget theory as it vainly fights extinction,focus in on a newly re-invented beauty.' I admit that this statement might need some clarification and maybe a little justification. Beauty was never, of course, ousted by the theorists, just intimidated, firstly it became more elusive, more mercurial, going undercover, and I am talking in terms of contemporary art practice here, but of course I am quite sure that poetry also toed this line to a certain extent. At this time, the traditional ideals and parameters for beauty were starved and became atrophied, but the phenomenon of beauty then began to re-appear in different guises, one guise, for instance was where abjection as a subject became fashionable in the art world and a darker, transmuted form of beauty began to make its appearance, so a transformed mode of beauty, stepped into the shoes left behind by the corpse of romantic beauty. To take some early examples of poetry that might work in this context, the dark melancholic work of Paul Celan or even earlier, Georg Trakl, are imbued with a brooding beauty that would have passed the Romantics by without a yea or nay. So, beauty, as a concept and as a part of the human psyche, is enduring, if prostitution is the oldest profession, then beauty has to be the oldest concept - hopefully older than warfare - (consider the wonder and awe of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden), so it is simply not going to go away. If it eluded the theorists and critics before, think how much more easily it can have its way in cyberspace, where theory, released from the fortresses of academia, has lost its way.. Now this is where I find it difficult to underpin my proposition, as I am a bit of a pedestrian in cyberspace and haven't ventured too far into its whelming spaces, but I plan to do further research into this and maybe get back to UB Poetics at a future date, with a few specifics. Many thanks again for your response - much appreciated - watch this space! Roy Exley. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:51:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ROBIN HAMILTON Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> space devoted to epistimology] > > Intellectual Impostures had epistemology in it? Every other chapter was on the epistimology of science. Have to say I found this more intelligible than the discussion of postmodernism, even filtered through S&B. [For whatever reasons, I simply can't get my head around especially Derrida, no matter how often I tried before I finally gave up.] > That's strange, > because everything i've read of Alan Sokal's on the topic of his so- > called science wars make it clear to me at least that he doesn't know > what he's talking about. By "science wars" do you mean the attack on postmodernism, or their take on (is it?) hard and soft scientific proofs? (I think I've got the terminology here wrong, and it's both been a time since I read IntImps, and I don't have my copy to hand.) Certainly Sokal and Bricmont have a strong take on postmodernism -- that with the exception of Foucault, it's crap -- which many people disagree with , and there *are aspects of a hatchet job to it. But ... I do think the reviews mostly misrepresented by omission. And the initial _Social Text_ affair is quite a different kettle of kittens from _Intellectual Impostures_. Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:20:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jason, Hmm. OK, some tough questions. I got a lot of splainin to do. Moses. I think of episodes when people really got it wrong in their =20 attempts to be a law giver. Like Eliot mid-30s lecturing at Virginia =20 about what a good idea it would be to round up those pesky Jews. Or, =20 less obvious the way Pound's know-it-all attitude could be ludicrous =20 and could blind him. Or the way my own know-it-all episodes have =20 blinded me. I don't really think of this ethically as much as I think =20= of it functionally. Authority and authoritarian power. It's more of a paradox isn't it? A =20= tricky situation. How to tell people what's right without telling =20 them what to do. That's so simple it has to be wrong. The masculine/feminine thing going on here is a real problem. We're =20 using masculine and feminine as tropes for activity/aggression and =20 passivity. Those tropes have a tendency to reinforce what we would =20 critique. Male gets associated with stuff like theorizing, female =20 associated with emotion. Am I being too simple? I can't really fill you in on all the theory, =20 because there's a ton of it. De Beauvoir seems really relevant here, =20 her The Second Sex. Gabriel was right about The Pink Guitar being a good place to look at =20= this stuff. The early (first?) chapter taking on DuChamp might help a =20= lot. But be ready for more tricky language. I'm nervous here because I'm starting to feel like the Village =20 Splainer. And I have to go teach a class. So, if you want follow-up, =20 do. Maybe someone else can put an oar in here too? JP On Feb 7, 2008, at 8:06 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Hi J.P. > you guys are losing me in the critical theory here, it's alien to =20 > the intellectual tradition i generally find myself and my favorite =20 > thinkers thinking in, but i want to follow because it looks like an =20= > interesting discussion. what's the ethical problem with taking =20 > oneself to be moses from the mountain with the tablets(tm)? how are =20= > authority and authoritarian power defined here? the statement about =20= > "gathering authority without authoritarian power" looks like a bit =20 > of a pun to me? in what way is an artists ethical stance a =20 > masculine one or a feminine one? and how does their work have to do =20= > with the masculinity or feminity of their stance? Can you help me =20 > out by filling in some of the background theory that I'm apparently =20= > missing here? because I'm honestly lost. I had a professor once who =20= > was fond of saying "I know what all the words you just used mean, =20 > but when you put them together in that way, I don't know what =20 > you're saying." I feel like I'm very much in the same boat. I don't =20= > think Gabe wants to talk to me, because he didn't answer my =20 > questions in this thread earier, so maybe I'll have better luck =20 > with you. > > Thanks, > Jason > > > On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, J.P. Craig wrote: > >> Gabriel, >> I'd ask you for a little more patience with me. Please don't =20 >> assume that because I'm questioning your formulation that I'm =20 >> willing to elide "the truth" of your claims. I asked for =20 >> clarification of your claims through discussion of representative =20 >> figures. I intend no hostility, as you note. I'm not willing to =20 >> concede you're right either, as I see this issue a bit =20 >> differently. I think. >> >> Since discussing particular artists' work--I didn't ask to discuss =20= >> bios--won't work for you, I'll take you up at The Pink Guitar. =20 >> It's just this sort of work that I'm coming from. >> >> One think that I see going on in this book is that DuPlessis is =20 >> teasing out the problem of the new and hegemony. She seems to =20 >> praise The Golden Notebook for its attempts to enact an "anti-=20 >> authoritarian ethics" at the "level of structure" and says that we =20= >> call such efforts "new." And she adds that "new" has "signaled =20 >> antithesis to dominant values." >> >> I asked you about Howe in particulate because she's an interesting =20= >> case when you're dealing with novelty and gendered power. As =20 >> DuPlessis notes, Howe "works in issues of transcendence" and =20 >> "impossible political privilege." I really like DuPlessis's =20 >> suggestion that the question of how to write is a question of how =20 >> to "gather authority without authoritarian power." Howe often =20 >> brings the old into a new light and new structure; she refuses, as =20= >> DuPlessis puts it, to be belated. >> >> I'm concerned that we proceed very carefully on this, me and the =20 >> mouse in my pocket, I suppose, because I don't want to dis-able =20 >> any woman or feminized, marginal person trying to find a way to =20 >> work, to "gather authority without authoritarian power." >> >> DuPlessis later says in the chapter/essay on Howe: "The female use =20= >> of this 'feminine' of marginality and the avant garde use of this =20 >> 'feminine' of marginality are mutually reinforcing in the work of =20 >> some contemporary women: Lyn Hejinian, Kathleen Fraser, Beverly =20 >> Dahlen and Howe. This mixed allegiance will naturally call into =20 >> question varieties of flat-footed feminism." >> >> So that's very much where I'm coming from when I asked you about =20 >> cases when you wrote that novelty is a purely masculine gesture, =20 >> that claiming to possess some truth is a purely masculine attempt =20 >> to market oneself as Moses from the Mountain with the Tablets(tm). =20= >> It seems more complicated than that to me. And theories often grow =20= >> more fuzzy at the edges when you apply them to cases. >> >> Respectfully, JP. >> >> >> On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >> >>> JP, >>> It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer =20 >>> your >>> questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: the >>> thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the =20 >>> feminine is not, to >>> use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt =20= >>> but >>> undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact =20 >>> arguably >>> defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but =20 >>> letters in toto. To >>> even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the =20 >>> biographies >>> and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this =20 >>> apparently >>> hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this =20 >>> structure. And I >>> know that's not your intention. >>> Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer =20 >>> you to >>> DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She =20 >>> says >>> succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to say =20= >>> on this list. >>> Thanks for your post. >>> Gabriel >>> -- >>> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com >>> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com >>> <>> I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your =20 >>> comment on >>> some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with >>> this. =46rom past correspondence with you I suspect that one person = in >>> the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all of >>> this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well as >>> how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. >>> I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. >>> Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics =20 >>> that >>> you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry >>> outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine gesture. >>> Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these particular >>> poets' work. >>> Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in >>> possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at least >>> as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've >>> criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree with >>> them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and =20 >>> see a >>> little Hell on earth. >>> H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable >>> pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." >>> And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective ideas. >>> And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. Franklin, >>> Gilbert & Gubar. >>> If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP >>> On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >>>> [for names and further examples: http://=20 >>>> gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] >>>> Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, >>>> cultural criminal or sacred heretic. >>>> Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the =93angry >>>> outsider,=94 the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred >>>> transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the >>>> maverick, the criminal. To hang one=92s shingle as a disinterested >>>> shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To >>>> declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-=20 >>>> yet- >>>> Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one=92s friends the apocalypse. >>>> Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to >>>> tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by >>>> enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: >>>> to display one=92s disinterestedness in profit in order to display >>>> one=92s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display >>>> one=92s high mind via one=92s principled disgust at the sycophancy = and >>>> interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's >>>> supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the >>>> literary community. >>>> This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external >>>> restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one=92s= >>>> label on it. Iteration of the romantic =93single actor=94 or =93small= >>>> cadre=94 theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all >>>> cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the >>>> badboy victim-transgressor author. >>>> There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of >>>> all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of >>>> =93anger=94 or =93being a jerk=94 as a mode of appropriating needs = and >>>> dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor >>>> masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the >>>> field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as >>>> intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw >>>> attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as >>>> =93the=94 origin rather than one result of the entire work done by = the >>>> host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck >>>> drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and >>>> wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a >>>> metaphor from Stan Apps: the =93transgressor=94 is a retail product >>>> that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. >>>> Common tactic: to tout what one does as =93shocking=94 or to start = or >>>> further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked >>>> as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is >>>> ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and >>>> that one will be exonerated by history. >>>> Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =93sacred = heretic=94 >>>> is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the >>>> tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not >>>> with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as >>>> a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan >>>> Kaufman=92s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly = leftist, >>>> whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered >>>> by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and >>>> Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). >>>> -- >>>> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail. >> >> >> >> JP Craig >> http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:53:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, I will try to respond to a few questions you raise. a) "murat mentioned the idea that writing isn't solely a transcript of speech, that its materiality is obviously different from speech, and this opens writing to all sorts of things that can't happen in speech. and, conversely, writing can't be sound poetry. writing can only write about some things that sound poetry can truly be. writing isn't primal like sound poetry can be. writing isn't music like sound poetry can be. sound poetry is no code of the page or the screen or even the recording, at times. body not included. performance space not included. etc." Though I definitely say that writing is not "solely a transfer of speech," I do not necessarily give a primacy to "sound" as opposed to "writing." In writing, the eye is also involved, and the relationship between what one can "see" and what one can perform is problematic. One is forced to ask the question, how does the visual assume or extend into a auditory dimension. Writing, the visual, also can be music if one incorporates silence into the idea of music, making it part of it. This way music also stretches into a music of the mind (which may also have elements of physical sound); this is part of what "eda" is, a movement, a music of the mind. *The Structure of Escape*, the poem I am working on now, is very much involved in the dynamic relationship between sight and hearing. Here is one piece from *The Structure*, the piece which gives the title to the whole poem: The Structure of Escape The frame of a Bresson movie is a jail the escape is going outside that jail it all starts with the noises one hears, becoming one, knowing what the noises are. that's freedom. There is an act and the demonstration of an act. the demonstration occurs in speech. the future always, recurrent outside the frame which becoming one knowing what the noises are is escape. Jim, as you can see, issue of time, the nature of it, and the nature of frame, questions you also discuss in your post, are integral parts of The Structure also; but in a different way. "Body *is* included in writing; but in a new way. b) "we can think of recorded sound as a type of writing. the 'page' looks like a timeline that has multiple channels. And each channel can have multiple divisions into different cuts. as in the interface to a multi-track recording piece of software" In my previous post, addressed to Jason, I was thinking of a "recording of writing," part of writing that the human voice can not enunciate or "perform"; but only think about. In that way, one might think of electronic or digital writing (are they the same thing? I am thinking they are, and you may be that they are not) as an extension of the human voice/thought into sound. In the early Nineties, I wrote a poem called *Io's Song*. In a number of pieces in it, the page gets divided into paralel vertical strips of poems/texts extend simultaneously. The reader/the mind is constantly forced to make choices where to go (one *can* not solve the problem by simply having different performers). The *choice* becomes a meditative act (a la Loyola's last stage of meditation), simultaneously making the reader, who must choose, part of the performance, or the "wrier/author" of that specific version of the reading. Believe me, this creates infinite problems, to me, both in a very paralyzing (in the sense of slowing towards a stasis) and fruitful way. The page splits into multiple directions, basically around a horizontal/vertical (x/y) axis), pulling within itself both how the eye traditionally moves in traditional reading, from left to right or right to left or up to down, and how the mind explodes contronting this text. Am I making sense? I think what I am saying is that what you see as digital poetry does by "multi-tracking" can also be done, at least done by me, on the page. c) "his is the architecture of film also, only the basic unit in film is the frame + sound, whereas in sound it's the file or, more granularly, the sample. you can edit both audio and video in Acid." Yes, film, its vocabulary, its way of organizing experience, is very important. As you can see from the piece I quoted above, *The Structure* is permeated with the language of film, its unique aesthetics, besides the works of many, many film makers. Underlying *The Structure*, there is the idea of "film lumiere," an idea I first developed in my essay "Eleven Septembers Later: Readings of Benjamin Hollander's *Vigilance*." In "film lumiere" what one see and what one hears work independently or contrapuntally (as opposed to harmonically) from each other. The essay shows how Orson Welles' does this in *A Touch of Evil* and Hollander in *Vigilance*, both examples of film lumiere. One needs to read the essay to find out about other aspects of it. "Acid": I am afraid I am a total ignoramus on that matter. I don't know what "acid" software is, only know the sixties, Lucy in the Sky, LSD kind. In film lumiere, and in *The Structure*, the frame is a very fluid thing, is not a mere, static given. I discuss this also in *The Peripheral space of Photography* and Deleuse in his two pivotal books on film, *Action Space* and Time Space*.* d) "audio and film are spatialized, as a writing space, into a two dimensional timeline with channels. just as typographic writing spatializes language into lines. interactive audio replaces the timeline paradigm with that of the flowchart (e.g. http://bayimg.com/oAFLFAaBC ). flowcharts allow for decisions. director, flash, max, and other multimedia/programming authoring tools are hybrid timeline/flowchart media writing spaces." As I already discussed, in *Io's Song*, etal., this does not have to be so. There are places in *Io's Song* that read like flow charts. e) "director, flash, max, and other multimedia/programming authoring tools are hybrid timeline/flowchart media writing spaces...." If one can see that all this did not only start with computers (this love of technology! which ploriferates its software and its language), but was anticipated on paper, written texts. A sense of continuity, rather than to me a too eager embrace of new technology as if history did not exist (see what happened with Ramsfeld and Iraq), would be salutary! I say this with full of respect and virtual affection (since we never physically met) with you Jim. f) "Let me also point out that writers are well-suited to swim in electric media, particularly digital media. Because computers are language machines, written language machines." Or perhaps language machines have/develop/or are infected by a soul! Ciao, Murat On Feb 8, 2008 1:02 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > i sent this earlier but for some reason it didn't make it through. have > added to this version, so don't worry about the last version. > > murat mentioned the idea that writing isn't solely a transcript of speech, > that its materiality is obviously different from speech, and this opens > writing to all sorts of things that can't happen in speech. and, > conversely, > writing can't be sound poetry. writing can only write about some things > that > sound poetry can truly be. writing isn't primal like sound poetry can be. > writing isn't music like sound poetry can be. sound poetry is no code of > the > page or the screen or even the recording, at times. body not included. > performance space not included. etc. > > we can think of recorded sound as a type of writing. the 'page' looks like > a > timeline that has multiple channels. And each channel can have multiple > divisions into different cuts. as in the interface to a multi-track > recording piece of software such as > http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/images/ss/lg/acidpro6-callouts.jpg , > which is the interface to Acid, a popular multi-track recording/editing > piece of software. > > this is the architecture of film also, only the basic unit in film is the > frame + sound, whereas in sound it's the file or, more granularly, the > sample. > > you can edit both audio and video in Acid. > > audio and film are spatialized, as a writing space, into a two dimensional > timeline with channels. just as typographic writing spatializes language > into lines. > > interactive audio replaces the timeline paradigm with that of the > flowchart > (e.g. http://bayimg.com/oAFLFAaBC ). flowcharts allow for decisions. > > director, flash, max, and other multimedia/programming authoring tools are > hybrid timeline/flowchart media writing spaces. > > the director interface is shown in > http://vispo.com/temp/directorInterface.gif . this is a screenshot of > dbCinema in director. the interface metaphors of director are mixed. > there's > the "stage", which is the area the viewer views. and the "score", which is > the timeline; it is populated with "sprites" to which are attached > "behaviors". for instance, the "sprite" in channel 142 of the "Score" is > the > text on the stage that says "DefaultBrushSet". That "sprite" has various > "behaviors" attached to it, including a script called "BrushSet > indicator". > That script is shown in the script window. There's also the "Cast" window. > The "Cast" window stores media elements such as texts, pictures, sounds, > videos, and so on, and also programming scripts or "behaviors". We can > think > of the things in the "Cast" window as classes, and the things in the > "Score" > or timeline as objects; objects are instantiations of classes. > > There's also the "Property Inspector" window. It shows the properties of > whatever "sprite" in the "Score" or on the "Stage" is selected. In the > screenshot, it shows some of the properties of "sprite" 142. > > There's also the "Object Inspector". It allows one to view the properties > of > code objects, which are instantiations of script classes stored in the > "Cast" window. In the screenshot, it displays some of the values of > gBrushSetManager, which in dbCinema is a "sprite" that stores the brushes > that paint in dbCinema. > > The "playback head" in the "Score" is at frame 130. In programmed > multimedia > works, unlike films, the "playback head" skips around, rather than simply > proceeding from beginning to end. Also, unlike film, what's in a > particular > frame can change from instant to instant; many Director 'movies' are one > frame long but are diverse from instant to instant. Such diverse one-frame > movies are programmerly. Less programmerly Director authors of course use > the "Score" in a more filmicly paradigmatic way. > > Anyway, it's useful to see audio production and multimedia production as a > type of writing. Usually it's called, somewhat awkwardly, "authoring", and > multi-track sound recording software packages are usually called sound > editing packages, and stuff like Premiere and Final Cut Pro, video > production software, is usually also referred to as "editing" software. > But > people who know what they're doing with this sort of software are doing > way > more than editing stuff. > > Of course, when we write in Word or other word processors, these are > "editing" packages as well, but we don't simply edit with them; we write > with them. > > In the transition from orality to literacy, we see the poem change a lot, > and we see notions of poetry change a lot. That's still in progress. As > Murat points out Silliman points out. In the transition from print > literacy > to electric literacy, poetry and writing and what it means to write and be > a > writer undergo similarly large extensions. Not that the book and the page > are going to disappear. I don't think they are. But the whole enterprise > of > writing is significantly enlarged. > > Let me also point out that writers are well-suited to swim in electric > media, particularly digital media. Because computers are language > machines, > written language machines. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:37:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's more fun to attack them. Class warfare is my weakness. Even the sendimental variety. J Edward's, for instance. & his "son of a mill worker" routine got old quickly. Jason Quackenbush wrote: lesson for the day: the best defense against home invasion is to live in perpetual poverty. On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Ryan Daley wrote: > Ha! so we can only attack the lucrative. > > Cool. Good to know. > > Thanks. > > Ryan > > On Feb 6, 2008 11:33 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: >> If by "on par" you mean as open to criticism, then no. You haven't achieved >> enough to be worth attacking by any available means yet. >> >> On Feb 6, 2008 7:54 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: >> >>> Ok. One more question and then I must retire: >>> >>> So, if New York State voted for the war, and if I receive an artist >>> grant from New York State, am I on par with Chomsky? >>> >>> -Ryan >>> >> > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:13:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: masculinity and playing the "transgressor" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heidi, Forgive my delayed reply. I waited to reply to consider your post some more -- but upon doing so I can't quite figure out what precisely you're saying to me here. If you'd care to say clarify what you're saying, I'm all ears. Sorry that I can't quite catch your gist here. Best, Gabe < wrote: > [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] > > Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, cultural > criminal or sacred heretic. > > Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the "angry outsider," the > untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred transgressor, the > misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the maverick, the criminal. To > hang one's shingle as a disinterested shaman. To declare oneself the > Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To declare oneself the Angry Righteous > Disinterested Transgressing-yet-Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare > one's friends the apocalypse. > > Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to tout > oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by enacting ritual > sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: to display one's > disinterestedness in profit in order to display one's purity of intent > and pure devotion to the art; to display one's high mind via one's > principled disgust at the sycophancy and interdependent nature of the > field; to make a show of one's supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy > of defiance toward the literary community. > > This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external > restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one's > label on it. Iteration of the romantic "single actor" or "small cadre" > theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all cultural work, > or at least that work that went into making the badboy > victim-transgressor author. > > There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of all > being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of "anger" or > "being a jerk" as a mode of appropriating needs and dealing with > perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor masks this > collective history and suppresses his connection to the field of > production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as intellectual > spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw attention away > from that masking, making it easier to be touted as "the" origin rather > than one result of the entire work done by the host of beings in that > field from readers to reviewers to truck drivers. This is a ready made > author type whose vogue waxes and wanes but is overall adopted > surprisingly frequently. To borrow a metaphor from Stan Apps: the > "transgressor" is a retail product that one buys and then pretends one > found at Goodwill. > > Common tactic: to tout what one does as "shocking" or to start or > further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked as > rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is > ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and that one > will be exonerated by history. > > Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the "sacred heretic" is > used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the tactic as > a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not with any one > flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as a basis for > anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan Kaufman's The Outlaw > Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, whereas more moderate and > even reactionary aesthetics are covered by the anthologies Legitimate > Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New > Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:34:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: call for proposals: Touching Time: Bodies/Writing/Histories. A practice-based research symposium In-Reply-To: <20071220112948.mzk7lvq7ggcc8kk8@web.mail.umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline HI Pertra, lovely to meet u and Neil in one of the more unlikely of places IF it's possible for me to attend Touching Time i would dearly LOVE to do so. Let me know and if you need more from me. I can probably get some money to cover my coming and if not i'll cover it myself. It'd be great to be a part of such a "time" Looking forwards to talking more sharing more moving more together. love and love cris On Dec 20, 2007 11:29 AM, Petra Kuppers wrote: > Touching Time: Bodies/Writing/Histories. A practice-based research > symposium > > April 19th/20th, 2008 Dance Building, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor > > Keynote Provocation: Ann Cooper Albright, Professor of Dance, Oberlin > College > > Conference Team: Amy Carroll, Assistant Professor of English and > American Culture (Latina/o Studies) > Amy Chavasse, Assistant Professor of Dance > Petra Kuppers, Associate Professor of English (Performance > Studies/Disability Studies) > Yopie Prins, Associate Professor of Comparative Literature > > In 2007, the University of Michigan hosted the Anarcha Project > symposium: a large-scale event where black culture and disability > culture activists, medical historians and performance scholars came > together to approach a particular medical historical case-study through > performance means. In 2008, we want to build on the methods explored in > the Anarcha, and invite scholars and artists to engage in experimental > historical writing and art practice. > > We invite up to twenty participants (grad students, faculty, artists) > to come together for two days, to workshop, use performances and > presentations as provocations, and explore methods of merging art > practice and critical writing in the exploration of time. The > historical topics we will explore are open, and will be determined by > applicants' interests. The symposium's main focus is with innovative > methodologies, writing-as-practice, archival embodiment, timespace > poetics, repronarrativities, heirlooms/legacies, frottages with > his(hiss)/her-stories, myth movement, touching textures. We will be in > research practice together: this is not a conference to share the > results of previous research. Thus, we are not looking for papers, we > are looking for participants in this experiment. > > Each invitee will have transport and accommodation costs reimbursed up > to $300 dollars. The conference hotel offers rooms for about sixty > dollars a night, and we will assist people who want to be hosted by > graduate students. > > Application Process: please send us a short CV, a sample of your > writing (experimental, performative or traditional critical), and a > brief statement about why you would like to participate. > > Alternatively, send a DVD or CD with performance or visual arts > material, also accompanied by a statement. Send all materials to the > symposium director: Petra Kuppers, petra@umich.edu, or to the snail > mail address: Petra Kuppers, English Department, 3216 Angell Hall, > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003 > > Deadline: January 1st. Notification: January 15th. > > Funded by the Global Ethnic Literatures Seminar > > > > -- > Petra Kuppers > Associate Professor > English, Theatre and Dance, Women's Studies > 3216 Angell Hall > University of Michigan > Ann Arbor > MI 48109-1003 > office: 734-647-7672 > mobile: 734-239-2634 > home: 734-274-2705 > email: petra@umich.edu > homepage: www.umich.edu/~petra > > New Books: Community Performance: An Introduction, and The Community > Performance Reader (both with Routledge) > The Scar of Visibility: Medical Performances and Contemporary Art > (University of Minnesota Press), http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/K/ > kuppers_scar.html > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:41:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0802080645g7ad5696dlf54d389130fb2fbb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm going to cop out of this and say I agree with both. Gambling money always ends up in the wrong hands. In fact, I might go as far as saying that all money concentrates in the wrong hands. I have yet to figure out why this is, or how I can get my hands on a Wrong Hands Disguise and then do some good... But oops, here's the problem: Even if I get my hands on a Wrong Hands Disguise (WHD) with the purest of intentions, I'm going to have to fight my way through the sea of Mister Miyagis and Daniel LaRussos just waiting to crane kick my belief as to what I think I'm doing with all this "ill-gotten" gain into the next fiscal period.... How do you win with these guys? -Ryan On Feb 8, 2008 9:45 AM, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > Jason, > > I disagree about yr point on stocks. Yes, it is gambling. But it isn't > like a straight game of poker between pals, it is more like playing a game > of poker with your (or my) friend Susie who we all know, upon winning, will > use the money for meth/alcohol/twinkies, or some such horribly destructive > purchase. Because I care about Susie, I may refuse to engage in any > activity in which the end result is harmful to my friend. In much the same > way, my man-wife and I do try to keep our (hilariously small) amount of > stocks money invested in things we feel okay making money from. Because we > all know we're giving UniSolar or whomever money to further their company, I > figure (for my part) that I'll want to not feel guilty about what making > money from a stock (gambling) means, or how it was made. > > On the other hand, I don't care about Chomsky's personal finances, etc. > Why, if the prevailing opinion in the poetry world, is that we can read Ezra > pound because his work is separate from his life and beliefs, does it even > matter? You know, when you get right down to it, everyone is a tool of "the > man", everyone is a creep. Some people are okay with that, some people > fight it, some people try very hard to disengage from that. More power to > all of them. I can't understand for the life of me why people are > karate-chopping Chomsky over his money when he works hard to make life > better for other people. I can think of many other people to hack at: Ralph > Nader, Angelina Jolie (seriously, who talks to refugees in Iraq or the > African continent wearing 800 dollar pants?) > > We can be mad at everyone. I obviously have decided who I will be angry > with. But I don't know how productive it is. (That said, I have spent the > past 5-7 years hating Tom Brady, so take all of this with a grain of salt.) > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:59:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0802080645g7ad5696dlf54d389130fb2fbb@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Feb 8, 2008, at 6:45 AM, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > Jason, > > I disagree about yr point on stocks. Yes, it is gambling. But it > isn't > like a straight game of poker between pals, it is more like playing > a game > of poker with your (or my) friend Susie who we all know, upon > winning, will > use the money for meth/alcohol/twinkies, or some such horribly > destructive > purchase. Because I care about Susie, I may refuse to engage in any > activity in which the end result is harmful to my friend. In much > the same > way, my man-wife and I do try to keep our (hilariously small) > amount of > stocks money invested in things we feel okay making money from. > Because we > all know we're giving UniSolar or whomever money to further their > company, That's the lie that the "socially responsible" investing firms tell that I'm talking about. The money you pay for the stock, unless you're purchasing stock directly from a company issue, doesn't go to fund anything that that company does, just like if I buy a used chevy from my neighbor, General Motors doesn't see a dime of what I pay him. The only direct financial contact you have with the company is if they pay dividends, and generally speaking, for most small holders, that's miniscule, and in any case, its money coming out of their profit which you an easily funnel into charitable giving (which is what my mom does when she gets dividends from Exxxon Mobile, for example). When you buy a stock, all you're doing is making a bet that that stock will increase in value over the period of time you plan to hold on to the stock for. True, technically you "own" a portion of the company in question, but you haven't invested any money in the company, you've bought out somebody else who already had a stake. I tend to be very cynical, so when things go bad, I bet that the companies that are truly evil will somehow benefit leading to an increase in their stock prices, and while I find a company like Halliburton reprehensible, I see no moral plus or minus to simply taking the bet that they're going to make a ton of money over the course of the next thirty years, and so more than likely Their stock value will have made great gains against inflation and so I'll make a good profit when i sell those shares. but then, some people also think it's immoral to play poker. And other people don't have a problem with that, but seem to think that there's something unethical about check raising. So to each his own I guess. I just really want to make the point that money spent on a traded stock is not going into the coffers of that company, as it's a myth that i think some seriously shady investment firms peddle to people, and as such it's a bit of a pet peeve. On a more interesting note, what is a man-wife? I've never heard the term before but I like the sound of it. Although I'm pronouncing it more like manwife. Thanks, Jason ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:00:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: <9D24423C95945E4ADDED9EE1@10.0.9.18> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If there was one who lived wholly outside the system, we'd never know about it. On Feb 8, 2008 10:20 AM, Gareth Farmer wrote: > "If there was one who lived wholly without the use of money, the State > itself would hesitate to demand it of him. But the rich man - not to make > any invidious comparison - is always sold to the institution which makes > him rich. Absolutely speaking, the more money the less virtue [...] The > best thing a man can do for his culture when he is rich, is to endeavour > to > carry out those schemes which he entertained when he was poor." > Henry David Thoreau 'Resistance to Civil > Government' > > --On 07 February 2008 19:34 -0800 Elizabeth Switaj > wrote: > > > Just make sure that it's visible poverty but not so visible that you > look > > like a trustafarian college student. > > > > On Feb 7, 2008 5:07 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > >> lesson for the day: the best defense against home invasion is to live > in > >> perpetual poverty. > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 22:43:29 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: playing a role MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for this, Gabe. This is an interesting comment and I think I agree w= ith much of it, but I wonder about this notion of "playing a role" and how = that's seen to be inherently a bad thing? Which of us is not playing a role= at this point?=20 Speaking of gender and sex issues, I was wondering if you might have any id= ea why our panel on gender with kari edwards and Stacy Szymaszek in 2007 wa= s suddenly cancelled from AWP that year and replaced with "the poetry of ma= gnificence" or some ridiculous thing? You were on that panel too -- I imagi= ne you must have been disappointed that happened. Best, Tim * * * JP, Part of the issue appears to be you think I wrote something I didn't=20 write. Your paraphrase of me is incorrect. (As is, incidentally, the=20 quotation Mark Weiss attributes to me). You say I "wrote that novelty is a purely masculine gesture." I did not write that. Here are a few things I said that I think you might be referring to. - "My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics=20 around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to=20 'disappear' women from a variety of literary scenes." - "Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the 'new' is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine." - "I would only repeat again that within the AG fields (fields that=20 especially fetishize the new) there seems to be a *worse* track record=20 regarding women." - "And if one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something=20 operating with peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out." None of those quotes displays a risky or even shocking reading of=20 homosociality in the literary field. If you think so, okay. I'm not=20 going to debate these points. It's like debating if the sky is composed=20 of air and jets. I'm not sure where you're going with your quotations from /Pink Guitar/.=20 If I were to point to a section of the book that clearly shows the=20 concerns DuPlessis has about the structural issues of gender in the=20 literary field across the decades, I'd suggest the section entitled,=20 "Feminist Poetics, Modernism, and the Avant Garde." (Maybe I'll post=20 some to my blog, for good measure). If you wanted a very strong exhaustive study of homosociality in the AG,=20 Michael Davidson's /Guys Like Us: Citing Masculinity in Cold War=20 Poetics/ (focusing mostly on '50s and '60s). Thanks for your polite posts. They're the only kind I reply to. Gabriel --=20 http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ < JP, > > It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer your > questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: the > thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the feminine > is not, to > use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt but > undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact > arguably > defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but letters > in toto. To > even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the > biographies > and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this > apparently > hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this > structure. And I > know that's not your intention. > > Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer you to > DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She says > succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to say > on this list. > > Thanks for your post. > > Gabriel > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com > > < I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your comment on > some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with > this. From past correspondence with you I suspect that one person in > the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all of > this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well as > how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. > > I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. > > Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics that > you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry > outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine gesture. > Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these particular > poets' work. > > Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in > possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at least > as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've > criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree with > them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and see a > little Hell on earth. > > H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable > pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." > > And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective ideas. > And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. Franklin, > Gilbert & Gubar. > > If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP > > > On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >> [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] >> >> Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, >> cultural criminal or sacred heretic. >> >> Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the =93angry >> outsider,=94 the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred >> transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the >> maverick, the criminal. To hang one=92s shingle as a disinterested >> shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To >> declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet- >> Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one=92s friends the apocalypse. >> >> Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to >> tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by >> enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: >> to display one=92s disinterestedness in profit in order to display >> one=92s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display >> one=92s high mind via one=92s principled disgust at the sycophancy and >> interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's >> supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the >> literary community. >> >> This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external >> restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one=92s >> label on it. Iteration of the romantic =93single actor=94 or =93small >> cadre=94 theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all >> cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the >> badboy victim-transgressor author. >> >> There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of >> all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of >> =93anger=94 or =93being a jerk=94 as a mode of appropriating needs and >> dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor >> masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the >> field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as >> intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw >> attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as >> =93the=94 origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the >> host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck >> drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and >> wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a >> metaphor from Stan Apps: the =93transgressor=94 is a retail product >> that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. >> >> Common tactic: to tout what one does as =93shocking=94 or to start or >> further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked >> as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is >> ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and >> that one will be exonerated by history. >> >> Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the =93sacred heretic=94 >> is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the >> tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not >> with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as >> a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan >> Kaufman=92s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, >> whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered >> by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and >> Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). >> >> -- >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > >= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:51:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can't remember if I've sent this. Here go/... It's more fun to attack them. Class warfare is my weakness. Even the sendimental variety. J Edward's, for instance. & his "son of a mill worker" routine got old quickly. Jason Quackenbush wrote: lesson for the day: the best defense against home invasion is to live in perpetual poverty. On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Ryan Daley wrote: > Ha! so we can only attack the lucrative. > > Cool. Good to know. > > Thanks. > > Ryan > > On Feb 6, 2008 11:33 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: >> If by "on par" you mean as open to criticism, then no. You haven't achieved >> enough to be worth attacking by any available means yet. >> >> On Feb 6, 2008 7:54 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: >> >>> Ok. One more question and then I must retire: >>> >>> So, if New York State voted for the war, and if I receive an artist >>> grant from New York State, am I on par with Chomsky? >>> >>> -Ryan >>> >> > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:59:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: <9D24423C95945E4ADDED9EE1@[10.0.9.18]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit " trustafarian college student." I've known a few. I kind of envy them. Where do I go to sell my soul/ join them? The whole struggle thing has unfortunately lost its novelty. > Gareth Farmer wrote: "If there was one who lived wholly without the use of money, the State itself would hesitate to demand it of him. But the rich man - not to make any invidious comparison - is always sold to the institution which makes him rich. Absolutely speaking, the more money the less virtue [...] The best thing a man can do for his culture when he is rich, is to endeavour to carry out those schemes which he entertained when he was poor." Henry David Thoreau 'Resistance to Civil Government' --On 07 February 2008 19:34 -0800 Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > Just make sure that it's visible poverty but not so visible that you look > like a trustafarian college student. > > On Feb 7, 2008 5:07 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> lesson for the day: the best defense against home invasion is to live in >> perpetual poverty. >> --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 18:06:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Danjerfield MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm starting (it's been in the works for quite some time) a literary magazine, Danjerfield . I welcome submissions at funkmasser@yahoo.com. I've kept the guidelines fairly open. They can be found on the blog. I'm just looking for something that doesn't suck. Send us your best and brightest. Regards, Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:44:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <412178.90795.qm@web86606.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My only familiarity with Sokal is having read about the Social Text incident, in which he comes off as being committed to a naive science textbook Karl Popper sort of idea of the scientific method, along with an unanalyzed commitment to scientific materialism metaphysically. Since i have very little patience for people with such a position, i haven't read the book. I really was just making a joke, though, epistemology being the theory of knowledge as explained by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. i'm often too obtuse for my own good. On Feb 8, 2008, at 9:51 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: >>> space devoted to epistimology] >> >> Intellectual Impostures had epistemology in it? > > Every other chapter was on the epistimology of > science. Have to say I found this more intelligible > than the discussion of postmodernism, even filtered > through S&B. [For whatever reasons, I simply can't > get my head around especially Derrida, no matter how > often I tried before I finally gave up.] > >> That's strange, >> because everything i've read of Alan Sokal's on the > topic of his so- >> called science wars make it clear to me at least > that he doesn't know >> what he's talking about. > > By "science wars" do you mean the attack on > postmodernism, or their take on (is it?) hard and soft > scientific proofs? (I think I've got the terminology > here wrong, and it's both been a time since I read > IntImps, and I don't have my copy to hand.) > > Certainly Sokal and Bricmont have a strong take on > postmodernism -- that with the exception of Foucault, > it's crap -- which many people disagree with , and > there *are aspects of a hatchet job to it. But ... I > do think the reviews mostly misrepresented by > omission. And the initial _Social Text_ affair is > quite a different kettle of kittens from _Intellectual > Impostures_. > > Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:00:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: CHOMSKY, DERSHOWITZ/ HOLOCAUST DENIER/FAURISSON MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I soured on Chomsky when he saw fit to defend the holocaust denier, Robert Faurisson. For an especially damning account, read chapter 5 of "Chutzpah" by Alan Dershowitz. I'm with Chomsky on the Palestinian issue. But the guy lost his mind during the Faurisson episode. The Dershowitz book, by the way, is my source since I'm recalling the episode from memory. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:51:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry//Internet outage in Mid East In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802061443j17451116r89464a278cd06655@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been thinking about this post for a few days now, Murat, and the concept of a digital poetry is something that I think is interesting to pursue in relation to sound. I tend to think of Jim and Brian Kim Stefans whenever I hear the phrase "digital poetry" and although I think there's a general trend toward it meaning particularly the kind of programming based on-screen poetry that they're so good at, to talk about sound as a field for digital poetry raises some intriguing questions. In relation to the move from the paper book to the website as a means of digital poetry, I think you're right in questioning whether that move has actually been made. I personally make no distinction between print and online publications as far as their worth goes, but I think for a lot of people, the electronic distribution of writing is somehow less than its "brick and mortar" forebear. I really like a lot of the work that people like Jim are doing in expanding what is possible with "on screen" poetry, but I think that there's a sense in which this sort of work is truly avant garde in the sense of pushing past what's current and looking into possible futures. Whereas, as I tend to think at least, Silliman's New Sentence was based on a historic shift. It's funny you bring this up, actually, as a lot of my own ideas about poetics got formed in a sort of crucible where my misunderstanding of the aims and workings of language poetry, including the New Sentence, played an important role. I even at one point developed my own off-shoot of the new sentence, the open sentence, which is a technique by which prosody is reinserted into the basically print nature of the sentence in order to heighten what I called in the essary I wrote describing it "the clarifying nature of vagueness." That is, you take something that is vague, such as a heteronym like "read" and you insert it in a situation where it's relation to other words in terms of prosody creates different possible meanings, and in those possibilities attempts to indicate something unsayable. I tend to use it as a technique a lot in my own writing, but where at one point I looked at it as something along the lines of a false simile which could be adapted and used by other poets, I think it's unfortunately too complex a device to make it have the impact I thought it did, and as a result becomes mostly a prosodic form of torque rather than actually being in someway indexical the way I thought it was. But that's a bit of a tangent. What I was going to say is that I don't think it's necessarily the case that the kind of digital poetry I'm after as a transitional and unrecognized movement from encoded typography on a page to a digital encoding is really ahistorical in the sense that you're getting at. True, the internet and poetry on the computer screen is still in its infancy and it remains to be seen exactly where that will go into the future. Hopefully Jim and likeminded poets will have their way and everything will be as interesting as the digital future their work promises. But I think in a very real way, and in a sense missed by everybody who took Grenier's "I hate speech" as a call to arms, the transition from performance to print is a shift that I think by the time This and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E were being published had already begun to be superseded. Which is to say, and I often fantasize that this thought is original, I believe that pop music is a kind of proto audio poetry in the sense that I'm thinking about, and as a result most people don't get their poetry off the page, and the real proletarian medium is not therefore print but recorded sound. The problem with pop music of course is that it is so very beholden to music, and fairly unadventurous music at that, for most of it's impact that the impact of the words is often a secondary consideration. Most pop lyrics are insipid and don't hold up as texts in their own right. And that's fine because pop lyrics are just a part of the pop song and when considering the quality of a pop song all the musical aspects can transform the insipid into something sublime and wonderful. I can think of thousands of examples ranging from Phil Spectors/The Ronettes "Be My Baby" or Gene Vincent's "Bebopalula" to Outkast's "Hey Ya" or Kelis/The Neptunes "Milkshake Song." The digital poetry I'm after, then, I think at least, is one that recognizes the role that recorded sound plays in the lives of most people where poetry is concerned. I think there are prototypes for the kind of thing I'm thinking of, Radiohead's "Fitter Happier" and Steve Reich's "It's gonna rain" both strike me as gestures in the same direction. Still, there's something about those pieces and the other ones like them that keep them as music. Maybe it's the lack of emphasis on the words, and I think you're right there in saying that what poetry is put together from is words. Or maybe to put it another way, Poetry happens in the transmission of words. Lots of people have explored the implications of the transmission of words by speech and by print, and there is always room and more unfamiliar space to be explored there. Maybe more so in the sort of audiotext I'm trying to imagine. I think your idea of a pendant to the debussy prelude with the mallarme poem through treating the letters as a chromatic scale, or maybe more as a tone row, is very much the sort of thing I'm talking about and I would enjoy collaborating on such a project. Part of what makes all this interesting to me is the space in which the poem takes place. For printed work, the space is between the printed poem and the reader viewing it. For performance it's between two people. Nowadays, for a recording, it's likely to have the illusion of taking place inside the listeners head, particularly if someone is listening to it on a set of headphones on their ipod. Part of the appeal of recording is the physical detachment from performance that disintegrates the visual object as part of the poem. If you watch a performance you see the speaker, if you read a poem you se the page or the screen, but that dissolves completely with the absolute non- visualness of a recording. All that's left is the sound of words and the illusion of am auditory space different from the actual space the listener is in. which i quite like the idea of. Anyway, enough of my rambling for now. Thanks again for the response. -Jason On Feb 6, 2008, at 2:43 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Jim, Jason, David, > > Three days ago, I began to write a response to Jason's original query. > IBefore I finished it, I decided not to go on with it. Though sound > and its > complex and in some ways oppositional relation to performance is of > supreme > importance to me, I felt what I war writing was perhaps too far off > from > what you were discussing and were interested in. After Jim's post > today and > his riff on Homer, I changed my mind. Here is what I had > written.Mine was > going to be longer, but there is enough in it anyway: > > "Jason, > > When Ron Silliman developed his idea of a new sentence, he based it > on the > transformation of poetry from performance to a more reading (and > subliminally seeing experience) after the invention of the printing > press. > He sees the poetry of the New Sentence as the culmination of this > distinction between poetry as performance, experienced basically as > uttered > speech, and poetry as read language. In the slower intricacies of read > language, the textural displacements the new sentence might create > ("torsions"), Ron sees new possibilities for poetry, a dynamic (a new > "concrete music" of torques) those distortions might create. > > You are after, it seems to me, a digital poetry, reflecting > possibly the > consuming importance of computers in our lives today. This is a very > interesting take; but, before saying where I agree with you, let me > say > where I see a significant difference. The New Sentence was based on an > actual fact, that in the United States a person receives most of one's > poetry experience through the page. The computer is not *yet* the > medium > through which most poetry is received, or experienced. The > computer, as far > as I can tell, has not yet established a distinct mode of reading for > poetry, except maybe enforcing an element of speed, like surfing. This > difference is important, though I am not yet quite clear in what. > One may > perhaps discuss it later. > > If paint is the basic material of painting and sound of music, > words are the > basic material of poetry. I can imagine letters to be the > synthesizing units > of a digital sound poetry. In a number of poets' works, for > instance, in > some of Alan's, a series of consonants appear in sequences or > combinations > next to each other. These poems remain on the page, silent - as > conceptual > or as concrete poems with a visual dimension- because the human > voice can > not "perform" these consonants all against each other. The > resistance they > create is too great. But each letter uttered and recorded > individually can > be then synthesized digitally. I can imagine a pointillist music > made of > these mixed sounds, the *wave* of music they may create. For > instance, one > may take all the letters of "Apres-midi D'un Faun" and create a > chromatic > digital poem out of it, as a pendant to Debussy's piece of music on > the same > poem. Jason, would you be interested in such a joint project? > > I think the relationship between Seurat's "Un Dimanche Apres-Midi," > Debussy's "Prelude A L'Apres-midi D'un Faun" and the project of a > digital > poem around the same poem is not accidental; but has a plot. Seurat's > painting is filled with a giddy scientificism which permeates the > painting, > not that different from the giddy excitement with which the digital > poem is > embracing the new computer technology. Debussy is breaking down the > traditional distances separating notes, the way in a digital poem > the word > or syllable as a unit of sound is broken down into letters often as > consonants compressed, impacting against each other. On the other > hand, both > Debussy's piece and this project refer to Mallarme, the great > skeptic of > technology, creator of a resistant space full of chance. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > > On Feb 3, 2008 3:16 AM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art >> archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the >> experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more interesting >> than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an awful lot going >> on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really caught up to the >> technological and aesthetic achievements of various electronic music >> types. Moreover, along with being more advanced and more challenging >> than a lot of the sound poetry i'm listening to on here, i tend to >> think that someone like for example the aphex twin or plastikman or >> iannis xenakis or glenn branca is also more accessible because >> they're coming at what they're doing from a starting place of music >> rather than a starting place of poetry. Googling around for search >> strings like "sound poetry" and "audio poetry" one tends to find a >> lot of recordings of readings, a lot of them pretty crummy qua >> recordings, which I guess is my complaint over all. I did find some >> stuff on PennSound that was kind of along the right track, things >> that were using signal processing to create sounds and which had an >> adequate level of audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep >> coming across sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a >> sound blaster 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. >> >> So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's >> sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out >> experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily >> seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals >> produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for >> years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i >> have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for me >> to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me that >> the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened in >> poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But listening to >> what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes me suspect that >> there's some unmined territory as far as audiotextual work goes and >> maybe I should start taking my own thoughts on the matter a little >> more seriously. >> >> So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art >> (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't the >> sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the interest, and >> in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or terrible >> consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily that I might >> not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm looking for is >> like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that sees the potential >> of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live reading or euro >> modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant garde jazz/musique >> concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to be the bulk of >> what's out there. >> >> Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references to >> any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Quackenbush" >> > > > On Feb 6, 2008 6:56 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > >> well, david, you gave jason a lecture, mistaking as a desire for less >> scratchy recordings his desire for work that takes the medium of >> recorded >> sound seriously as artistic media. and i pointed some of it out. >> so then >> you >> gave me a lecture on being narrowly focussed on the audiophilic. >> >> writing sound is a matter of layers/channels and sequences/takes. >> that is >> the 'architecture' of writing sound, sort of like the architecture >> of this >> message is a string of ASCII characters. imagine recorded sound as a >> writing. >> >> imagine the time when writing existed but very few knew how to >> write. a >> conversation between homer and a not so humble scribe. just write >> it down >> like I tell you, boy, says homer. homer, you moron, this is not a >> tape >> recorder, says the scribe, it's a different medium. in the future, he >> says, >> people will understand that editing and meditating on phrases and >> layering >> work--editing, in short--is a natural part of the writing process, >> and >> they'll understand it isn't simply a silent coding of speech but >> is also >> other things. and poets will be their own scribes, as will other >> people--writing will be almost as widely understood as speaking. >> imagine >> that. and i'm not going to be there. poetry's gonna change, homer, >> you can >> bet your butt on that. but i love ya, says the scribe. you are the >> grandaddy >> of it all. tell me that line again, please. >> >> line? says homer. don't give me that pythagorean technical mumbo >> jumbo for >> the sake of zeus, boy, speak plainly. plainly. poetry. you know. >> poetry. >> quoth he with bardic exasperation. >> >> i think they drank a bottle of wine together later, though, david. or >> maybe >> during. >> >> cheers, david. >> >> ja >> http://vispo.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 07:55:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Suzanne Burns Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: <9778b8630802061944y73777a32qacc912028990aa6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/6/08, Ryan Daley wrote: > > Steve, > > It's not that I don't believe you, but where are you getting this from? > > -Ryan I believe you also, but would really love to know the source of your detailed information. By the way, Chomsky lives in Lexington, and I know his neighborhood-- it's one of the richest suburbs in the state. I doubt that he bought that place (or pays the very spendy property taxes) on a mere MIT salary. FWIW. As for estate taxes: there are all kinds of legal loopholes available to those who are rich in cash (and especially to those who are *very* rich in cash) to shelter their money so that the estate tax is minimized thus protecting their income from "redistribution" upon death, e.g., setting up trusts for your heirs and making yearly contributions, setting up charitable remainder trusts, etc. These work best for those who have so much money there is no question that they will never need to touch the principal. Just keep it in trusts, and voila, you are safe from all those peasants with pitchforks. The people who really get shafted are those who are land rich but cash poor, e.g., farmers whose biggest asset is their land (the valueof even a small farm easily exceeds the exempted amount), which is not protected at all. It's not a system that works well. Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:15:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Potree Journal Subject: contact info for Yedda Morrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If you have either a current postal or email address for you, could you please backchannel... -- www.littleredleaves.com www.littleredleavesjournal.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:29:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: This Monday: Court Green #5 Reading and Release Party MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://english.colum.edu/courtgreen COURT GREEN #5 Reading and Release Party Featuring Jeanne Marie Beaumont, Lisa Fishman, Jenny Mueller, Tony Trigilio, David Trinidad, and many more! Monday, February 11, 2008 5:30 p.m. Columbia College Chicago Film Row Cinema 1104 S. Wabash Ave., 8th floor Court Green is a poetry journal edited by Lisa Fishman, Arielle Greenberg, Tony Trigilio, and David Trinidad. Each issue features a dossier on a special topic or theme; this issue's dossier contains creative responses to the work of Sylvia Plath. Each reader will read a poem from the journal and one of Plath’s poems, including "Tulips," "The Moon and the Yew Tree," "The Applicant," and "Sheep in Fog." For more information: Cora Jacobs, Managing Editor, Court Green: (312) 344-8212 Becca Klaver, Assistant Programs Director: (312) 344-8819 http://english.colum.edu/courtgreen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:53:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought & paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Critical spirit, sure, but to employ the word "attack" against achievement = on the basis of a supposed moral or ethical program seems a little dismissi= ve of the giving quality necessary to dialog. Are we "really talking", or = just stuffing each others mouths with a kind of flag loyalty? SE > Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:33:50 -0800> From: poesis@GMAIL.COM> Subject: Re= : Chomsky/bought & paid for> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > If by "on = par" you mean as open to criticism, then no. You haven't achieved> enough t= o be worth attacking by any available means yet.> > On Feb 6, 2008 7:54 PM,= Ryan Daley wrote:> > > Ok. One more question and then = I must retire:> >> > So, if New York State voted for the war, and if I rece= ive an artist> > grant from New York State, am I on par with Chomsky?> >> >= -Ryan> > _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:22:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: With + Stand Subject: WITH + STAND first issue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://withplusstand.blogspot.com/ With + Stand is pleased honored & excited to announce the publication of its inaugural issue, featuring new work by: Michael Scharf Dan Thomas-Glass Juliana Spahr Derek Henderson Megan Kaminski Joshua Clover Ben Lerner Ange Mlinko Christopher Nealon Rodrigo Toscano & Tim Kreiner 51 pages. Limited numbered edition of 100 copies spray-painted by hand. Available the Ides of February, Only for free, via post or from the hands of an author. For press copies, trades or inquiries, email us: withplusstand@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:50:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: DIM SUM where some of us respond to "Numbers Trouble" essay by Juliana Spahr and Stephanie Young MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline DIM SUM where some of us respond to "Numbers Trouble" essay by Juliana Spahr and Stephanie Young Elizabeth Treadwell organized the following responses to expand the conversation on "Numbers Trouble." See the site here: http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/search/label/dim%20sum Shanna Compton did an amazing job putting this site together, and you'll see too that there is an introductory note, as well as links to refer to the original essay by Spahr and Young, which appeared in the Chicago Review late last year. A couple of the essays are forthcoming, so be sure to check back in to DIM SUM for those. Many thanks to Elizabeth Treadwell and Shanna Compton, CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:49:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barbara Jane Reyes Subject: OCHO 16: MiPOesias Magazine Print Companion is now available In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi all, FYI the issue of OCHO: MiPOesias Magazine Print Companion which I have guest edited is now available, and featuring new work by: Tara Betts, Brian Dean Bollman, Ching-In Chen, Sasha Pimentel Chac=F3n, Linh Dinh, Sarah Gambito, Jessica Hagedorn, Jaime Jacinto, Nathaniel Mackey, Craig Santos Perez, Matthew Shenoda, Jennifer K. Sweeney, Truong Tran, Dillon Westbrook, Debbie Yee Please see here (cover image is not yet up): http://www.createspace.com/Customer/EStore.do;jsessionid=3D014D179D230F989F= 05D81763267939E9.cspworker01?id=3D3338152 Thanks! -- http://barbarajanereyes.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:30:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Man-wife is my term for my partner, who I have been with for 4+ years and share a lovely daughter with. We're not married, but boyfriend seems kind of quaint. On Feb 8, 2008 4:59 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > On Feb 8, 2008, at 6:45 AM, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > > > Jason, > > > > I disagree about yr point on stocks. Yes, it is gambling. But it > > isn't > > like a straight game of poker between pals, it is more like playing > > a game > > of poker with your (or my) friend Susie who we all know, upon > > winning, will > > use the money for meth/alcohol/twinkies, or some such horribly > > destructive > > purchase. Because I care about Susie, I may refuse to engage in any > > activity in which the end result is harmful to my friend. In much > > the same > > way, my man-wife and I do try to keep our (hilariously small) > > amount of > > stocks money invested in things we feel okay making money from. > > Because we > > all know we're giving UniSolar or whomever money to further their > > company, > > That's the lie that the "socially responsible" investing firms tell > that I'm talking about. The money you pay for the stock, unless > you're purchasing stock directly from a company issue, doesn't go to > fund anything that that company does, just like if I buy a used chevy > from my neighbor, General Motors doesn't see a dime of what I pay > him. The only direct financial contact you have with the company is > if they pay dividends, and generally speaking, for most small > holders, that's miniscule, and in any case, its money coming out of > their profit which you an easily funnel into charitable giving (which > is what my mom does when she gets dividends from Exxxon Mobile, for > example). When you buy a stock, all you're doing is making a bet that > that stock will increase in value over the period of time you plan to > hold on to the stock for. True, technically you "own" a portion of > the company in question, but you haven't invested any money in the > company, you've bought out somebody else who already had a stake. I > tend to be very cynical, so when things go bad, I bet that the > companies that are truly evil will somehow benefit leading to an > increase in their stock prices, and while I find a company like > Halliburton reprehensible, I see no moral plus or minus to simply > taking the bet that they're going to make a ton of money over the > course of the next thirty years, and so more than likely Their stock > value will have made great gains against inflation and so I'll make a > good profit when i sell those shares. but then, some people also > think it's immoral to play poker. And other people don't have a > problem with that, but seem to think that there's something unethical > about check raising. So to each his own I guess. I just really want > to make the point that money spent on a traded stock is not going > into the coffers of that company, as it's a myth that i think some > seriously shady investment firms peddle to people, and as such it's a > bit of a pet peeve. > > On a more interesting note, what is a man-wife? I've never heard the > term before but I like the sound of it. Although I'm pronouncing it > more like manwife. > > Thanks, Jason > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:12:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Companies directly benefit when people buy their stock. Its a drop in the bucket, certainly. Yes stocks are sold in the secondary market. Kind of like recycling. Only collective actions have impact. Jason Quackenbush wrote: On Feb 8, 2008, at 6:45 AM, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > Jason, > > I disagree about yr point on stocks. Yes, it is gambling. But it > isn't > like a straight game of poker between pals, it is more like playing > a game > of poker with your (or my) friend Susie who we all know, upon > winning, will > use the money for meth/alcohol/twinkies, or some such horribly > destructive > purchase. Because I care about Susie, I may refuse to engage in any > activity in which the end result is harmful to my friend. In much > the same > way, my man-wife and I do try to keep our (hilariously small) > amount of > stocks money invested in things we feel okay making money from. > Because we > all know we're giving UniSolar or whomever money to further their > company, That's the lie that the "socially responsible" investing firms tell that I'm talking about. The money you pay for the stock, unless you're purchasing stock directly from a company issue, doesn't go to fund anything that that company does, just like if I buy a used chevy from my neighbor, General Motors doesn't see a dime of what I pay him. The only direct financial contact you have with the company is if they pay dividends, and generally speaking, for most small holders, that's miniscule, and in any case, its money coming out of their profit which you an easily funnel into charitable giving (which is what my mom does when she gets dividends from Exxxon Mobile, for example). When you buy a stock, all you're doing is making a bet that that stock will increase in value over the period of time you plan to hold on to the stock for. True, technically you "own" a portion of the company in question, but you haven't invested any money in the company, you've bought out somebody else who already had a stake. I tend to be very cynical, so when things go bad, I bet that the companies that are truly evil will somehow benefit leading to an increase in their stock prices, and while I find a company like Halliburton reprehensible, I see no moral plus or minus to simply taking the bet that they're going to make a ton of money over the course of the next thirty years, and so more than likely Their stock value will have made great gains against inflation and so I'll make a good profit when i sell those shares. but then, some people also think it's immoral to play poker. And other people don't have a problem with that, but seem to think that there's something unethical about check raising. So to each his own I guess. I just really want to make the point that money spent on a traded stock is not going into the coffers of that company, as it's a myth that i think some seriously shady investment firms peddle to people, and as such it's a bit of a pet peeve. On a more interesting note, what is a man-wife? I've never heard the term before but I like the sound of it. Although I'm pronouncing it more like manwife. Thanks, Jason --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 14:38:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Howe Subject: new from Glossolalia: Gertrude Stein and Ken Rumble MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline New electro-poetry is now available for download from Glossolalia: IF I TOLD HIM, featuring Gertrude Stein and THE POETRY FESTIVAL (in two parts) featuring Ken Rumble. The compositions are available for download here: http://glossolalia-blacksail.blogspot.com/ As always, those interested in being mixed by or otherwise collaborating with Glossolalia can and should contact me. Thanks to everyone who's submitted in the past (if you've submitted and I haven't used your sounds yet, please bear with me -- I promise they're still in my file, waiting to come to life). Best, Brian Howe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:39:06 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: New book from Tinfish Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hazel Smith's The Erotics of Geography, will be available at the end of this month. This is an exciting multimedia package from Tinfish, which publishes experimental poetry from the Pacific. Hazel Smith, author of the creative writing text, The Writing Experiment, shows us how it's done in this spirited book of performance poems, collages, elegies, meditations, explorations of gossip, uncertain identities, bodies and the city, to say nothing of “acts of omission.” An accompanying cd-rom includes performances by Hazel Smith and Roger Dean. For more details, please follow this link: http://tinfishpress.com/hot_off_the_press.html And while you're there, look around our website! The list price for the book is $18. Our pre-publication price is $10 until the end of February. Send checks to Tinfish Press, 47-728 Hui Kelu Street #9, Kaneohe, HI 96744. aloha, Susan M. Schultz Edit girl ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 14:41:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mate prime mate partner me 30 yrs married no kids chick? On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:30:48 -0500 angela vasquez-giroux writes: > Man-wife is my term for my partner, who I have been with for 4+ years > and > share a lovely daughter with. We're not married, but boyfriend > seems kind > of quaint. > > > > On Feb 8, 2008 4:59 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > On Feb 8, 2008, at 6:45 AM, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > I disagree about yr point on stocks. Yes, it is gambling. But > it > > > isn't > > > like a straight game of poker between pals, it is more like > playing > > > a game > > > of poker with your (or my) friend Susie who we all know, upon > > > winning, will > > > use the money for meth/alcohol/twinkies, or some such horribly > > > destructive > > > purchase. Because I care about Susie, I may refuse to engage in > any > > > activity in which the end result is harmful to my friend. In > much > > > the same > > > way, my man-wife and I do try to keep our (hilariously small) > > > amount of > > > stocks money invested in things we feel okay making money from. > > > Because we > > > all know we're giving UniSolar or whomever money to further > their > > > company, > > > > That's the lie that the "socially responsible" investing firms > tell > > that I'm talking about. The money you pay for the stock, unless > > you're purchasing stock directly from a company issue, doesn't go > to > > fund anything that that company does, just like if I buy a used > chevy > > from my neighbor, General Motors doesn't see a dime of what I pay > > him. The only direct financial contact you have with the company > is > > if they pay dividends, and generally speaking, for most small > > holders, that's miniscule, and in any case, its money coming out > of > > their profit which you an easily funnel into charitable giving > (which > > is what my mom does when she gets dividends from Exxxon Mobile, > for > > example). When you buy a stock, all you're doing is making a bet > that > > that stock will increase in value over the period of time you plan > to > > hold on to the stock for. True, technically you "own" a portion > of > > the company in question, but you haven't invested any money in > the > > company, you've bought out somebody else who already had a stake. > I > > tend to be very cynical, so when things go bad, I bet that the > > companies that are truly evil will somehow benefit leading to an > > increase in their stock prices, and while I find a company like > > Halliburton reprehensible, I see no moral plus or minus to simply > > taking the bet that they're going to make a ton of money over the > > course of the next thirty years, and so more than likely Their > stock > > value will have made great gains against inflation and so I'll > make a > > good profit when i sell those shares. but then, some people also > > think it's immoral to play poker. And other people don't have a > > problem with that, but seem to think that there's something > unethical > > about check raising. So to each his own I guess. I just really > want > > to make the point that money spent on a traded stock is not going > > into the coffers of that company, as it's a myth that i think > some > > seriously shady investment firms peddle to people, and as such > it's a > > bit of a pet peeve. > > > > On a more interesting note, what is a man-wife? I've never heard > the > > term before but I like the sound of it. Although I'm pronouncing > it > > more like manwife. > > > > Thanks, Jason > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 16:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: FYI: some Hemigway stuff Comments: To: poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An article about Hemingway's play "The Fifth=20 Column," and a newly-discovered letter about the=20 circumstances of its=20 production.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/theater/10mcgr.html.=20 A sample of the letter, describing a shelling of H's hotel in Madrid: Something you can=92t put on the stage but that=20 would be good in a picture was the first big=20 shelling of the Florida. The hotel was packed=20 when the shelling started just at daylight and=20 after the first shell hit the front of the=20 building, (seven more hit it that day and over=20 eleven hundred were fired into the town), there=20 was a sort of mass migration from the rooms on=20 the side that faced the lines. Couples carrying=20 their mattresses over their backs scuttled across=20 the halls on every floor like a movement of the=20 lemmings. Then in the crashing and the rolling=20 clouds of dust Antoine de Saint Exup=E9ry started=20 to give away grapefruits. He had brought two=20 bushel of them from Valencia and this was his=20 first bombardment and he was handling it by giving away grapefruits. =93Est-ce-que vous voulez une pamplemousse?=94 Crash. More dust. People lying under the=20 mattresses. Screams from ladies awakened too early and abruptly. =93Est-ce-que vous voulez une pamplemousse?=94 Crash. More dust. Strong smell of cordite and=20 blasted granite. Pieces of masonry fall through=20 skylight. Ladies under mattresses who have not=20 thought of facing eternity until awakened give serious thoughts to same. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:52:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: "Varieties of Masculine Experience," by El Angel & its 2-fold translations & annotations in the drafts of El Colonel's "Varieties of Mescaline Experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Chirot Date: Feb 9, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: Varieties of Masculine Experience and the Varieties of Mescaline Experience the Transgressor as Trance Gesture To: david.chirot@gmail.com Introduction, with the author's name redacted at the direction of the Investigating Commision The following are from the rough notes of the bare beginings of my translations and annotations of El Colonel's translations, marginalia and annotations from his "Montage-Manuscript" "Varieties of Mescaline Experienc= e #3 Plain (or Playin) the Trance Gestures," which is from the original text by the esteemed US American academician, scholar and poet Gabriel Gudding entitled "Varieties of Masculine Experience III "Playing the Transgressor.= " The allusion to William James' Varieties of Religious Experience and the influence of James' thinking on Dr Gudding 's is further emphasised by the title of Dr Gudding's blog "Earth and Pragmatism," though this latter shoul= d not be construed or confused as an allusion in any way to the numerous journals, texts, platforms of various ideologies which have included the words "Earth" or "Soil" in combination with the words and names of various ideologies from Anarchism to Communism to Democracy to Fascism to Naziism t= o Socialism to Zionism. While Dr Gudding's analysis makes some claims to creating a confluence amon= g such thinkers as Simone Weil and Pierre Bourdieu, as well as such terms as "Earth and Pragmatism" (the "earth Shoe" or "Whole Earth Catalogue"? come t= o mind) and "Varieties of Religious (Masculine) Experience," with its own Emersonian allusions to "Experience," the "Religious" and "Varieties of" as in "Emerson's "Representative Men," his primary focus is presumed to be "transcendental" rather than "ideological," with however some thing of the "practical" praxis of Pragmatism inferred to be preferable to the merely an= d completely Transcendental. (Interestingly, also in re Emerson, Dr Gudding himself in a note on the buffalo poetics list given in full below forbids "the trading of interpretations of the biographies and works of supposedly representative women" when discussing, as he, like Emerson, is, "representative men.") (That a bit more perhaps, of another well-known US American conception of "praxis"--Behaviourism-- is needed, seems to be perhaps an undercurrent of thought within the realm of possibility of being present in Dr Gudding's admonishments as well as the Puritan Tradition's own ideas of Moral Fiber, Backbone, High Ground and Suasion ("Spare the rod and spoil the child") which pave the way in some versions of this ethos from Good Behaviours to Good Business, from Good Clean Living to Living the Good Life. "Cleanliness," after all is "next to Godliness." and so the worship of the bathroom's porcelain architectures and apparati. But I digress!! Forgive the grim intrusion of such un-clean and uncalled for thoughts! El Colonel proposes to examine a number of the invocations of the "disinterred shaman" of Dr Gudding, by proposing a study of "Experiences" connected with the practice and study, the art and poetry, the prose and documents, of the "Varieties of Mescaline Experience." In this, as El Colonel remarks drily, his well known smile in full display, he is not so much inspired by William James' "varieties of religious Experience" as those of the Jimi Hendrix Experience, of whose "Voodoo Chile= " and "A Merman I shall Turn to Be" he is especially fond. The work of actual shamans, poets, CIA investigators, Roman Empresses and the experiments and their attendant writings and drawings of Henri Michaux are among the persons and practices who and which have contributed greatly to El Colonel's studies. It should also be noted that he does not see himself in any way as being a "writer" of the avant or any other garde nor, indeed as a member of any of those groups who produce Dr Gudding's despised category of "literature." For it must be noted that,along with his great fondness for alliteration, E= l Colonel has an addiction for placing thoughts, those improvised compositions, in quotation marks. This brings "a deft touch of intriguin= g and entertaining irony to the most prosaic of ideas, events, and persons " Habituated to an imaginative isolation, El Colonel's intellectual companion= s are his "compositions" with their attendant "commentaries," "asides," "digressions," and "annotations." By means of this "ironic distancing" he continually invents "a hitherto unknown and as yet unpublished form of writing, never before seen nor heard. This writing is a method of creating for himself a reader who is turn accompanied by his own doubling as a writer. In referring to the Jimi Henrix Experience, El Colonel is not trying to demonstrate any of Dr Gudding's detested "hipness" nor a reek of the wreck of an outdated "hippiness," but simply injecting a note "at once of music and of humor, into a discussion whose organism is perhaps thirsty for the healing waters of these two well known physicians." El Colonel has noted (below) the "passive-aggressive" nature of the "re-colonization" of what Dr. Gudding himself notes is an already colonized area, known as it were to all, in that the aggressive tones of Dr Gudding's assertions are made at the same time with ever in mind the words in his blog's subtitle, "disciplined renunciation of hipness in general tryingtobenice-ness " As Dr Gudding modestly notes: "The thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the feminine is not, to use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt but undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. " Yet is not the "disciplined renunciation of hipness" and the perhaps more free flowing "in general tryingtobeniceness" striven for itself indicative of a troubled, contested and conflicted "site of struggle" in which the pulls of passive-aggressive attractions divide the writer against himself and so cry out for an increase of policing of policing? Perhaps it is he himself who in longing to be a Judge, that is, one is impartially freed fro= m these inner conflicts, and not only longing to be a Judge but in behaving like one, has at the same transgressed his "tryingtobeniceness" and wandere= d dangerously near again to the dread dens and denizens of "hipness" and "Masculinity." For, does he not present himself in danger from masculine practices of cruelty in policing the policers, as a fearless (male) Judge (transgressively) risking retribution: " And if one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out." And so claim for himself at once the masculine roles he himself as Judge decries in others: the Hero and the Victim? Is it not a "masculine experience" that is being re- presented and enacted: the conflict between being one who wants to belong to "general tryingtobeniceness" and at the same time fears he will lose that "hipness" which distinguishes him from being a Boy Scout or, "more dread than the Dread of Babylon" --being a square!! Or, far worse, that ultimate horror o= f horror haunting many a masculine mind----being ascertained to have become one of the members of the Most Feared Terrorist Organizations in the World--the School of Quietude!!!!! (Something akin to Keith Olberman's "Worst Persons in the World,' only WORSE.) "It (the abject terror of being detained for rendition as a Quietudist) is one of the most widely felt but undertheorized phenomena in the field of production." For is it not the introduction of women and their works which is being banished from Dr Gudding's own attacks on the banishments of women and thei= r works, something which reveals all the more the deeply the insecurities at the heart of the "poetry wars," and the "passive-aggressive" "(Mother) Earth and (Father) pragmatism" of male writers who long not to and fear the "renunciation" of their hipness, their "radicalism," their "cutting edge" and "powerful analyses," their "Culture Warrior" selves entirely in their own ethical desires to conform to a misguided conception of "general tryingtobeniceness" as an imposed and policing regime which they want to both rebel against and embrace? And so, continually policing themselves, may they not take advantage of their practice of it in that "disciplined renunciation," which constitutes their own "authority on the subject," and in turn project this and its insecurities out into the world, and become, indeed, the all seeing Eyes of Justice, who is after all depicted as a Blind Woman? And who might just be= , and of course IS, in dire need of some one to observe, define, categorize,control catch and discipline and punish ("Spare the Rod and spoi= l the child") the policers and all those "outlaws, criminals, heretics, disinterred shamen" and "hear their cases" and Judge them with all seeing eyes for Her? That is, to be the One who prepares the criminals, outlaws, heretics for he= r final weighing of them in the Scales of Justice? (Amnd perhaps allowed to be, not only a Judge, but the Lord High Executione= r himself?) In short, a kind of Attorney General for the combined figures of the Muse and Justice? A devoted and disciplined director of civil service and Homeland Security and "general tryingtobeniceness" for Our Lady of the Statute of Liberty? A General Wytchfinder to go with his "general tryingtoniceness and so, verily, not at all, after all, a loss of mere "badboyness" but the attainment of a being the figure of whom is Far Greater than Any Mere Manliness in the ultimate role of El Angel Gabriel. And so in to the fray charges this White Winged Knight, this Caped Crusader= , --to cleanse the world of all his dirty brethren and protect the Statue, th= e Throne, the Mighty Halls of Justice and the Muse from the dread "outlaws, criminals disinterred shamen, and all the Armies of the Schools of Quietude= , and all the other evil, rival Schools and militia "Movements," "insurgencies" "cults," 'romantic heroes" and yea verily, all those who do not follow his example and that of his fellow Angels. "It in fact arguably defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but letters in toto. To even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the biographie= s and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this apparently hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this structure" "And if one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out." For after all, "especially in this apparently hostile venue," where, as Raymond Chandler wrote of his Knight Philip Marlowe, "down these mean streets a man must go"--and so is it not all the more necessary that the "truth" must be protected, and that in this environment, indeed in "letters in toto," it seems necessary that "a man must go," one who is both practised in the "discipline of renunciation" and in the "generaltyringtobeniceness?" As El Colonel notes, are we then not in the presences of Guardian Angels, and among them, shining whitely in the darkness of these mean streets, El Angel Gabriel? As El Colonel puts it, in one of his several marginalia, jotted during the preparation of a sort of projected "capsule summary," which I will here us= e a quotation in commencing the presentation of what are only my own rough notes at this moment of the beginings of my own rough translations of their own rough notes of El Colonel's "Translations": Regarding the trasmission hereafter to be designated as : "Gabriel Gudding, to Poetics, re his 'The Varieties of Masculine Experience III: Playing the Transgressor'" "An ethico-aesthetico assertion of cases for categories from which, transgressively anti-transgressiveness and via the distancing of Moral Suasion, the author wishes to distinguish himself, for having observed and noted, defined and organized into headings and sub-headings, is he not essaying to claim that by such demonstration of objectivity and rigor, he i= s an observer apart from the field of which he is doing the observing? And b= y himself crossing the line from object of observation to its observer, is he not faithfully fulfilling his own self-perceived moral duty not to "play th= e transgressor," but to BE the transgressor, he, who in contrast to those who police, becomes instead the Judge. And so, by transgressively not playing the transgressor, and refusing to participate in policing in favor of makin= g judgments of cases, is he not now become, truly, a transgressive judge, tha= t is to say, one who not only upholds the law, but is above it himself, and s= o can make judgements which are irrefutable, and to which no appeals may be made. For has he not himself written: 'To even appear to argue the point is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of thi= s structure.'" And who but Angels can so place themselves, these beings higher than mere men and yet not presuming themselves, in the usual despicable male fashion, to be Gods? That is, as Angels, do they not indeed adhere to the truth, and to that structure of truth in which they are indeed Angels, and not that most despised of all men, those who presume themslves to be Gods? --From the marginalia of El Colonel's notes while making his "Translation o= f the Varieties of Mescaline Experience #3: Plain the Trance Gestures" This book is an exploration. By means of words, signs, drawings. Mescaline, the subject explored. From the thirty two autograph pages reproduced out of the hundred and fifty written while the inner perturbation was at its height, those who can read handwriting will learn more than from any description. --Henri Michaux, Miserable Miracle El Colonel smiles. Having taken already a stroll among thick fronds wet with mist and dew, having seen the slowly dawning light begin to reveal "first silhouettes, and then more distinct features, as in tracking and targeting those about to be ambushed," he is ready now to sit at his desk i= n the high ceilinged, wide-windowed room that is his "center of operations, the vigorously beating heart of the Heroic Patrol," and begin to sift through the neatly stacked files of the latest arrivals "within the warmly welcoming embrace of those taking them prisoner and conducting them to thei= r carefully prepared places of detention, those cells which endeavor to most efficiently assist their occupants in the exploration of their personal limits of endurance." El Colonel smiles. At the top of the stack is the file of "an American academician, arbiter of ethico-aesthetico cultural questions and writer of poetry, essays and blogs." Opening the file and beginning to scan its pages= , "he feels the brisk breeze of the by-now familiar American scents of health-giving Moral Higher Ground and Suasion" greet him as he begins to "peruse the quaint and elevated tones of the Missionary messenger, ever on the watch for the ominous activities and aims of both the obvious and the obscure operations of an ever present terrorism in which the good Missionar= y never recognizes his own reflected figure." El Colonel smiles. "El Angel Gabriel Good-doing" he decides to name this "assiduous and agitated as well as agitating author." El Colonel smiles. Lighting a cigarette with his favorite "liberated lighter," he prepares himself for "the task of translation which is the means by which it is necessary to overcome an instinctive aversion to the tropes of even the most well=96intentioned of the agents of a perpetual process of passive-aggressive re-colonization, whether on the abstract ethico-aesthetic planes or those of the material and monetary." El Colonel smiles. Taking up his favorite squat, blunt pencil, "he begins to transcribe for the benefit of his own reflections that version which wil= l enter his personal files, while the original will remain among those of the alphabetically indexed author, resting in peace with those others already entered." El Colonel permits himself a slight widening of his smile, into one of the more elaborate of his 'Butterfly' positionings of the lips and adds, sotto voce to none but the soft airs redolent of the cigarette smoke gently overcoming the scent of Moral Suasion=97 "Or, if I may so phrase it: 'to rest in peace with those others already interred.'" El Colonel smiles and smokes. And translates and transcribes. The following are a few selected excerpts from his first, and rather rough, draft. And as he works, he hums and murmurs, sotto voce, some among his favorite lines from Henri "Michaux's MISERABLE MIRACLE . . . "It being impossible to reproduce the entire manuscript, which directly and simultaneously translated the subject, the rhythms, the forms, the chaos, a= s well as the inner defenses and their devastation, we found ourselves in difficulties, confronted by a typographical wall. Everything had to be rewritten. The original text, more tangible than legible, drawn rather than written, would not, in any case, suffice. " The Varieties of Mescaline Experience "#3" Plain the trance gestures "The basic purpose is threefold: to display one's disinterestedness in profit in order to display one's purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display one's high mind via one's principled disgust at the sycophancy and interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward "the literary world. "Elaboration: To hang one's shingle as a disenterred shaman." --El Angel Gabriel The shamans in this essay are all natives of the town of Huautla de Jimenez= . Properly speaking they are Huautecans; but since the language they speak ha= s been called Mazatec and they have been referred to in the previous anthropological literature as Mazatecs, I have retained that name, though strictly speaking, Mazatecs are the inhabitants of the village of Mazatlan in the same mountains. * * "IN THE DECADE BETWEEN 1956 and 1966, Henri Michaux, who had been publishin= g verse, prose, and drawings since 1927, produced six little books concerning his experiences with mescaline and other, mostly psychedelic, drugs. Severa= l of these volumes, including this first one, are "illustrated" by the author's astonishing drawings, which frequently afford a more direct accoun= t than his discursive writing of the exploratory voyages Michaux inveterately undertook beginning in the late '20s. These brief texts, often (as in the case of Miserable Miracle) written during the experiments with mescaline an= d reproduced with the same fidelity as the drawings, which resemble electrocardiograms, indecipherable grass writing, and then word landscapes, are difficult to read and have very little to do with prevailing notions of pleasure and even ecstasy typically promoted in the literature of addiction." "The Mazatec Indians eat the mushrooms only at night in absolute darkness. It is their belief that if you eat them in the daylight you will go mad. Th= e depths of the night are recognized as the time most conducive to visionary insights into the obscurities, the mysteries, the perplexities of existence= " "Agrippina wanted the emperor dead so that her son Nero could take the throne. She planned to take advantage of Claudius' love for the delicious *Amanita caesarea* mushroom, but she had to choose carefully among its deadly look-alikes. The poison could not be "sudden and instantaneous in its operation, lest the desperate achievement should be discovered," wrote Gordon and Valentina Wasson in their monumental and definitive work, *Mushrooms, Russia and History.* The Empress settled on the lethal *Amanita phalloides,*a fungus the Wassons considered well suited to the crime: "The victim would not give away the game by abnormal indispositions at the meal, but when the seizure came he would be so severely stricken that thereafter he would no longer be in command of his own affairs." "Agrippina knew her mushrooms, and Nero became Emperor." "Morse Allen himself, though responsible in ARTICHOKE research for everything from the polygraph to hypnosis, took the trouble to go through the Indian lore . . . . "In addition, this literature shows that witch doctors or 'divinators' used some types of mushrooms to produce confessions or to locate stolen objects or to predict the future." "Here was a possible truth drug, Morse Allen reasoned. "Since it had been determined that no area of human knowledge is to be left unexplored in connection with the ARTICHOKE program, it was therefore regarded as essential that the peculiar qualities of the mushroom be explored...." Alle= n declared. "Full consideration," he concluded, should be given to sending an Agency man back to Mexico during the summer. The CIA had begun its quest fo= r "God's flesh." "Flung onto and across the paper, hastily and in jerks, the interrupted sentences, with syllables, flying off, frayed, petering out, kept diving, falling, dying. Their tattered remnants would revive, bolt, and burst again= . The letters ended in smoke or disappeared in zigzags. The next ones, similarly interrupted, continued their uneasy recitation, birds in the mids= t of the drama, their wings cut in flight by invisible scissors." El Colonel smiles. Lighting a fresh cigarette with his "liberated lighter,= " which is an American one available on line in the form of one of the Twin Towers with a plane half swallowed in mid-crash, and with the flames of the lighter, when lit, seeming to be the effects of that crash, he hums further quotations from Henri Michaux and snatches of Jimi Hendrix's "Voodoo Chile" while sharpening his beloved squat, blunt pencil and, by an associative leap, thinking of Henri Michaux's drawings made while experimenting with Mescaline. and in what ways they differ and in so differing, offer further insights into those ink-drawn calligraphies of an asemic expression which the poet so prolifically created . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new from above/ground press Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 1. Dirty Work by Natalie Simpson, ALBERTA SERIES #4 2. The Peter F. Yacht Club #9, edited by Jesse Patrick Ferguson (the Fredericton issue!) 3. FYRE by Catherine Owen, ALBERTA SERIES #5 subscribers rec' a complimentary copy of each (a large above/ground press mailout happening this month; watch for it!); 2008 subscriptions still available; http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/ -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:46:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0802090830w10db1272o4d07c5506f7ab148@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's a good word. i've always disliked the term "partner" for that sort of unmarried but longterm adult relationship. I don't know what it is about partner that makes me cringe, but it does, maybe it's too much like a business relationship. man-wife though, that's lovely. On Feb 9, 2008, at 8:30 AM, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > Man-wife is my term for my partner, who I have been with for 4+ > years and > share a lovely daughter with. We're not married, but boyfriend > seems kind > of quaint. > > > > On Feb 8, 2008 4:59 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> On Feb 8, 2008, at 6:45 AM, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> I disagree about yr point on stocks. Yes, it is gambling. But it >>> isn't >>> like a straight game of poker between pals, it is more like playing >>> a game >>> of poker with your (or my) friend Susie who we all know, upon >>> winning, will >>> use the money for meth/alcohol/twinkies, or some such horribly >>> destructive >>> purchase. Because I care about Susie, I may refuse to engage in any >>> activity in which the end result is harmful to my friend. In much >>> the same >>> way, my man-wife and I do try to keep our (hilariously small) >>> amount of >>> stocks money invested in things we feel okay making money from. >>> Because we >>> all know we're giving UniSolar or whomever money to further their >>> company, >> >> That's the lie that the "socially responsible" investing firms tell >> that I'm talking about. The money you pay for the stock, unless >> you're purchasing stock directly from a company issue, doesn't go to >> fund anything that that company does, just like if I buy a used chevy >> from my neighbor, General Motors doesn't see a dime of what I pay >> him. The only direct financial contact you have with the company is >> if they pay dividends, and generally speaking, for most small >> holders, that's miniscule, and in any case, its money coming out of >> their profit which you an easily funnel into charitable giving (which >> is what my mom does when she gets dividends from Exxxon Mobile, for >> example). When you buy a stock, all you're doing is making a bet that >> that stock will increase in value over the period of time you plan to >> hold on to the stock for. True, technically you "own" a portion of >> the company in question, but you haven't invested any money in the >> company, you've bought out somebody else who already had a stake. I >> tend to be very cynical, so when things go bad, I bet that the >> companies that are truly evil will somehow benefit leading to an >> increase in their stock prices, and while I find a company like >> Halliburton reprehensible, I see no moral plus or minus to simply >> taking the bet that they're going to make a ton of money over the >> course of the next thirty years, and so more than likely Their stock >> value will have made great gains against inflation and so I'll make a >> good profit when i sell those shares. but then, some people also >> think it's immoral to play poker. And other people don't have a >> problem with that, but seem to think that there's something unethical >> about check raising. So to each his own I guess. I just really want >> to make the point that money spent on a traded stock is not going >> into the coffers of that company, as it's a myth that i think some >> seriously shady investment firms peddle to people, and as such it's a >> bit of a pet peeve. >> >> On a more interesting note, what is a man-wife? I've never heard the >> term before but I like the sound of it. Although I'm pronouncing it >> more like manwife. >> >> Thanks, Jason >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 19:20:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Chomsky/bought and paid for In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0802090830w10db1272o4d07c5506f7ab148@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Manwife. It's like the male version of spork. On Feb 9, 2008 11:30 AM, angela vasquez-giroux < angela.vasquez.giroux@gmail.com> wrote: > Man-wife is my term for my partner, who I have been with for 4+ years and > share a lovely daughter with. We're not married, but boyfriend seems kind > of quaint. > > > > On Feb 8, 2008 4:59 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > On Feb 8, 2008, at 6:45 AM, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > I disagree about yr point on stocks. Yes, it is gambling. But it > > > isn't > > > like a straight game of poker between pals, it is more like playing > > > a game > > > of poker with your (or my) friend Susie who we all know, upon > > > winning, will > > > use the money for meth/alcohol/twinkies, or some such horribly > > > destructive > > > purchase. Because I care about Susie, I may refuse to engage in any > > > activity in which the end result is harmful to my friend. In much > > > the same > > > way, my man-wife and I do try to keep our (hilariously small) > > > amount of > > > stocks money invested in things we feel okay making money from. > > > Because we > > > all know we're giving UniSolar or whomever money to further their > > > company, > > > > That's the lie that the "socially responsible" investing firms tell > > that I'm talking about. The money you pay for the stock, unless > > you're purchasing stock directly from a company issue, doesn't go to > > fund anything that that company does, just like if I buy a used chevy > > from my neighbor, General Motors doesn't see a dime of what I pay > > him. The only direct financial contact you have with the company is > > if they pay dividends, and generally speaking, for most small > > holders, that's miniscule, and in any case, its money coming out of > > their profit which you an easily funnel into charitable giving (which > > is what my mom does when she gets dividends from Exxxon Mobile, for > > example). When you buy a stock, all you're doing is making a bet that > > that stock will increase in value over the period of time you plan to > > hold on to the stock for. True, technically you "own" a portion of > > the company in question, but you haven't invested any money in the > > company, you've bought out somebody else who already had a stake. I > > tend to be very cynical, so when things go bad, I bet that the > > companies that are truly evil will somehow benefit leading to an > > increase in their stock prices, and while I find a company like > > Halliburton reprehensible, I see no moral plus or minus to simply > > taking the bet that they're going to make a ton of money over the > > course of the next thirty years, and so more than likely Their stock > > value will have made great gains against inflation and so I'll make a > > good profit when i sell those shares. but then, some people also > > think it's immoral to play poker. And other people don't have a > > problem with that, but seem to think that there's something unethical > > about check raising. So to each his own I guess. I just really want > > to make the point that money spent on a traded stock is not going > > into the coffers of that company, as it's a myth that i think some > > seriously shady investment firms peddle to people, and as such it's a > > bit of a pet peeve. > > > > On a more interesting note, what is a man-wife? I've never heard the > > term before but I like the sound of it. Although I'm pronouncing it > > more like manwife. > > > > Thanks, Jason > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 17:44:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: lawnoguraged MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i don't think words are necessary for poetry, murat. there's sound poetry that is wordless. there's lettristic poetry that concentrates on the letter. there's visual poetry that has another thing going. to me, it's the intensity of the engagement with language. you know, if you look at the work of godel, my word, the man is astounding in his engagement with language. astounding. he's got the funk, murat. not only does he have the funk, he's got the junk. godel's incompleteness theorems. heavy junk. murat, part of the big picture of contemporary thought and art is an expansion of our notions of language. why can't poetry go there too? ja? http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 05:26:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry//Internet outage in Mid East In-Reply-To: <26514DFA-92AE-4295-A0C4-9862A5776980@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jason, Your observations about pop music, "the real proletarian medium is not therefore print but recorded sound, etc) is very insightful. For instance, the "scratchings" in rap are very similar to the chromatism of impacted consonant sounds I am imagining in digitally mixed poetry. They extend correspondingly the limits of the "human voice" and the "song," the way the telescope extended the limits of the eye. Recently, I have been listening (at least for an old fogey like me) to a decent amount of rap music. If one takes out the cliched ones which repeat the surface patina of the really good ones, one sees that rap has greater connections to jazz than to rock 'n roll. The way in the great pieces multiple movements of sound, texture, rhythm, etc., operate simultaneously and independently, one thinks of free jazz and certain Coltrane pieces. Also, here we hit the idea of simultaneity and independence, which you discuss in relation to "open sentence" and I in "film lumiere." In word language, the most obvious place this verticality occurs is in puns. But this parallelism of sound can be extended sometimes to a whole line, where two statements occur in one sentence. For instance, here is the beginning of my poem, "Venezuela," from *Io's Song*: Venezuela (can, I, dream) a conundrum of advent- ures ... Your reference to Grenier is very interesting and revealing. Are you aware that in his "letter" poems at least, the whole poem is trapped in the visual (I do not mean this pejoratively). His poem creates exactly the crisis in reading, the relation between paper and performance, I am talking about. In my view, a deep silence surrounds that poem. Of course, by its nature, Grenier's poem forces him to imagine the poem as a different kind of book, made of loose pages in a box. I saw him "read" from this poem at The Poetry Project years ago. He did it by projecting the letter poem on a screen and "commenting" on it (a kind of Talmudic riff, a la "film lumiere?"). Ciao, Murat On Feb 8, 2008 10:51 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > I've been thinking about this post for a few days now, Murat, and the > concept of a digital poetry is something that I think is interesting > to pursue in relation to sound. I tend to think of Jim and Brian Kim > Stefans whenever I hear the phrase "digital poetry" and although I > think there's a general trend toward it meaning particularly the kind > of programming based on-screen poetry that they're so good at, to > talk about sound as a field for digital poetry raises some intriguing > questions. In relation to the move from the paper book to the website > as a means of digital poetry, I think you're right in questioning > whether that move has actually been made. I personally make no > distinction between print and online publications as far as their > worth goes, but I think for a lot of people, the electronic > distribution of writing is somehow less than its "brick and mortar" > forebear. I really like a lot of the work that people like Jim are > doing in expanding what is possible with "on screen" poetry, but I > think that there's a sense in which this sort of work is truly avant > garde in the sense of pushing past what's current and looking into > possible futures. Whereas, as I tend to think at least, Silliman's > New Sentence was based on a historic shift. > > It's funny you bring this up, actually, as a lot of my own ideas > about poetics got formed in a sort of crucible where my > misunderstanding of the aims and workings of language poetry, > including the New Sentence, played an important role. I even at one > point developed my own off-shoot of the new sentence, the open > sentence, which is a technique by which prosody is reinserted into > the basically print nature of the sentence in order to heighten what > I called in the essary I wrote describing it "the clarifying nature > of vagueness." That is, you take something that is vague, such as a > heteronym like "read" and you insert it in a situation where it's > relation to other words in terms of prosody creates different > possible meanings, and in those possibilities attempts to indicate > something unsayable. I tend to use it as a technique a lot in my own > writing, but where at one point I looked at it as something along the > lines of a false simile which could be adapted and used by other > poets, I think it's unfortunately too complex a device to make it > have the impact I thought it did, and as a result becomes mostly a > prosodic form of torque rather than actually being in someway > indexical the way I thought it was. But that's a bit of a tangent. > > What I was going to say is that I don't think it's necessarily the > case that the kind of digital poetry I'm after as a transitional and > unrecognized movement from encoded typography on a page to a digital > encoding is really ahistorical in the sense that you're getting at. > True, the internet and poetry on the computer screen is still in its > infancy and it remains to be seen exactly where that will go into the > future. Hopefully Jim and likeminded poets will have their way and > everything will be as interesting as the digital future their work > promises. But I think in a very real way, and in a sense missed by > everybody who took Grenier's "I hate speech" as a call to arms, the > transition from performance to print is a shift that I think by the > time This and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E were being published had already begun > to be superseded. Which is to say, and I often fantasize that this > thought is original, I believe that pop music is a kind of proto > audio poetry in the sense that I'm thinking about, and as a result > most people don't get their poetry off the page, and the real > proletarian medium is not therefore print but recorded sound. The > problem with pop music of course is that it is so very beholden to > music, and fairly unadventurous music at that, for most of it's > impact that the impact of the words is often a secondary > consideration. Most pop lyrics are insipid and don't hold up as texts > in their own right. And that's fine because pop lyrics are just a > part of the pop song and when considering the quality of a pop song > all the musical aspects can transform the insipid into something > sublime and wonderful. I can think of thousands of examples ranging > from Phil Spectors/The Ronettes "Be My Baby" or Gene Vincent's > "Bebopalula" to Outkast's "Hey Ya" or Kelis/The Neptunes "Milkshake > Song." > > The digital poetry I'm after, then, I think at least, is one that > recognizes the role that recorded sound plays in the lives of most > people where poetry is concerned. I think there are prototypes for > the kind of thing I'm thinking of, Radiohead's "Fitter Happier" and > Steve Reich's "It's gonna rain" both strike me as gestures in the > same direction. Still, there's something about those pieces and the > other ones like them that keep them as music. Maybe it's the lack of > emphasis on the words, and I think you're right there in saying that > what poetry is put together from is words. Or maybe to put it another > way, Poetry happens in the transmission of words. Lots of people have > explored the implications of the transmission of words by speech and > by print, and there is always room and more unfamiliar space to be > explored there. Maybe more so in the sort of audiotext I'm trying to > imagine. I think your idea of a pendant to the debussy prelude with > the mallarme poem through treating the letters as a chromatic scale, > or maybe more as a tone row, is very much the sort of thing I'm > talking about and I would enjoy collaborating on such a project. Part > of what makes all this interesting to me is the space in which the > poem takes place. For printed work, the space is between the printed > poem and the reader viewing it. For performance it's between two > people. Nowadays, for a recording, it's likely to have the illusion > of taking place inside the listeners head, particularly if someone is > listening to it on a set of headphones on their ipod. Part of the > appeal of recording is the physical detachment from performance that > disintegrates the visual object as part of the poem. If you watch a > performance you see the speaker, if you read a poem you se the page > or the screen, but that dissolves completely with the absolute non- > visualness of a recording. All that's left is the sound of words and > the illusion of am auditory space different from the actual space the > listener is in. which i quite like the idea of. > > Anyway, enough of my rambling for now. Thanks again for the response. > > -Jason > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 2:43 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > > Jim, Jason, David, > > > > Three days ago, I began to write a response to Jason's original query. > > IBefore I finished it, I decided not to go on with it. Though sound > > and its > > complex and in some ways oppositional relation to performance is of > > supreme > > importance to me, I felt what I war writing was perhaps too far off > > from > > what you were discussing and were interested in. After Jim's post > > today and > > his riff on Homer, I changed my mind. Here is what I had > > written.Mine was > > going to be longer, but there is enough in it anyway: > > > > "Jason, > > > > When Ron Silliman developed his idea of a new sentence, he based it > > on the > > transformation of poetry from performance to a more reading (and > > subliminally seeing experience) after the invention of the printing > > press. > > He sees the poetry of the New Sentence as the culmination of this > > distinction between poetry as performance, experienced basically as > > uttered > > speech, and poetry as read language. In the slower intricacies of read > > language, the textural displacements the new sentence might create > > ("torsions"), Ron sees new possibilities for poetry, a dynamic (a new > > "concrete music" of torques) those distortions might create. > > > > You are after, it seems to me, a digital poetry, reflecting > > possibly the > > consuming importance of computers in our lives today. This is a very > > interesting take; but, before saying where I agree with you, let me > > say > > where I see a significant difference. The New Sentence was based on an > > actual fact, that in the United States a person receives most of one's > > poetry experience through the page. The computer is not *yet* the > > medium > > through which most poetry is received, or experienced. The > > computer, as far > > as I can tell, has not yet established a distinct mode of reading for > > poetry, except maybe enforcing an element of speed, like surfing. This > > difference is important, though I am not yet quite clear in what. > > One may > > perhaps discuss it later. > > > > If paint is the basic material of painting and sound of music, > > words are the > > basic material of poetry. I can imagine letters to be the > > synthesizing units > > of a digital sound poetry. In a number of poets' works, for > > instance, in > > some of Alan's, a series of consonants appear in sequences or > > combinations > > next to each other. These poems remain on the page, silent - as > > conceptual > > or as concrete poems with a visual dimension- because the human > > voice can > > not "perform" these consonants all against each other. The > > resistance they > > create is too great. But each letter uttered and recorded > > individually can > > be then synthesized digitally. I can imagine a pointillist music > > made of > > these mixed sounds, the *wave* of music they may create. For > > instance, one > > may take all the letters of "Apres-midi D'un Faun" and create a > > chromatic > > digital poem out of it, as a pendant to Debussy's piece of music on > > the same > > poem. Jason, would you be interested in such a joint project? > > > > I think the relationship between Seurat's "Un Dimanche Apres-Midi," > > Debussy's "Prelude A L'Apres-midi D'un Faun" and the project of a > > digital > > poem around the same poem is not accidental; but has a plot. Seurat's > > painting is filled with a giddy scientificism which permeates the > > painting, > > not that different from the giddy excitement with which the digital > > poem is > > embracing the new computer technology. Debussy is breaking down the > > traditional distances separating notes, the way in a digital poem > > the word > > or syllable as a unit of sound is broken down into letters often as > > consonants compressed, impacting against each other. On the other > > hand, both > > Debussy's piece and this project refer to Mallarme, the great > > skeptic of > > technology, creator of a resistant space full of chance. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2008 3:16 AM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > >> So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art > >> archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the > >> experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more interesting > >> than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an awful lot going > >> on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really caught up to the > >> technological and aesthetic achievements of various electronic music > >> types. Moreover, along with being more advanced and more challenging > >> than a lot of the sound poetry i'm listening to on here, i tend to > >> think that someone like for example the aphex twin or plastikman or > >> iannis xenakis or glenn branca is also more accessible because > >> they're coming at what they're doing from a starting place of music > >> rather than a starting place of poetry. Googling around for search > >> strings like "sound poetry" and "audio poetry" one tends to find a > >> lot of recordings of readings, a lot of them pretty crummy qua > >> recordings, which I guess is my complaint over all. I did find some > >> stuff on PennSound that was kind of along the right track, things > >> that were using signal processing to create sounds and which had an > >> adequate level of audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep > >> coming across sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a > >> sound blaster 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. > >> > >> So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's > >> sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out > >> experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily > >> seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals > >> produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for > >> years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i > >> have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for me > >> to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me that > >> the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened in > >> poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But listening to > >> what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes me suspect that > >> there's some unmined territory as far as audiotextual work goes and > >> maybe I should start taking my own thoughts on the matter a little > >> more seriously. > >> > >> So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art > >> (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't the > >> sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the interest, and > >> in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or terrible > >> consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily that I might > >> not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm looking for is > >> like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that sees the potential > >> of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live reading or euro > >> modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant garde jazz/musique > >> concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to be the bulk of > >> what's out there. > >> > >> Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references to > >> any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Jason Quackenbush" > >> > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2008 6:56 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > >> well, david, you gave jason a lecture, mistaking as a desire for less > >> scratchy recordings his desire for work that takes the medium of > >> recorded > >> sound seriously as artistic media. and i pointed some of it out. > >> so then > >> you > >> gave me a lecture on being narrowly focussed on the audiophilic. > >> > >> writing sound is a matter of layers/channels and sequences/takes. > >> that is > >> the 'architecture' of writing sound, sort of like the architecture > >> of this > >> message is a string of ASCII characters. imagine recorded sound as a > >> writing. > >> > >> imagine the time when writing existed but very few knew how to > >> write. a > >> conversation between homer and a not so humble scribe. just write > >> it down > >> like I tell you, boy, says homer. homer, you moron, this is not a > >> tape > >> recorder, says the scribe, it's a different medium. in the future, he > >> says, > >> people will understand that editing and meditating on phrases and > >> layering > >> work--editing, in short--is a natural part of the writing process, > >> and > >> they'll understand it isn't simply a silent coding of speech but > >> is also > >> other things. and poets will be their own scribes, as will other > >> people--writing will be almost as widely understood as speaking. > >> imagine > >> that. and i'm not going to be there. poetry's gonna change, homer, > >> you can > >> bet your butt on that. but i love ya, says the scribe. you are the > >> grandaddy > >> of it all. tell me that line again, please. > >> > >> line? says homer. don't give me that pythagorean technical mumbo > >> jumbo for > >> the sake of zeus, boy, speak plainly. plainly. poetry. you know. > >> poetry. > >> quoth he with bardic exasperation. > >> > >> i think they drank a bottle of wine together later, though, david. or > >> maybe > >> during. > >> > >> cheers, david. > >> > >> ja > >> http://vispo.com > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 02:36:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry//Internet outage in Mid East In-Reply-To: <26514DFA-92AE-4295-A0C4-9862A5776980@myuw.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I think in a very real way, and in a sense missed by > everybody who took Grenier's "I hate speech" as a call to arms, the > transition from performance to print is a shift that I think by the > time This and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E were being published had already begun > to be superseded. Which is to say, and I often fantasize that this > thought is original, I believe that pop music is a kind of proto > audio poetry in the sense that I'm thinking about, and as a result > most people don't get their poetry off the page, and the real > proletarian medium is not therefore print but recorded sound. The > problem with pop music of course is that it is so very beholden to > music, and fairly unadventurous music at that, for most of it's > impact that the impact of the words is often a secondary > consideration. Most pop lyrics are insipid and don't hold up as texts > in their own right. And that's fine because pop lyrics are just a > part of the pop song and when considering the quality of a pop song > all the musical aspects can transform the insipid into something > sublime and wonderful. I can think of thousands of examples ranging > from Phil Spectors/The Ronettes "Be My Baby" or Gene Vincent's > "Bebopalula" to Outkast's "Hey Ya" or Kelis/The Neptunes "Milkshake > Song." Yes, the recorded sound of popular music is fascinating. The layering, the cuts, the beyond live. It's connection with the inside of the head; it's ability to stick inside the head--sometimes in an annoying way. It's memorableness, sometimes like a bad ad, other times in an uplifting way. I don't know how to play an instrument (well drums, sort of) and can barely sing, but I do sometimes use the recording software as an instrument. And it's fascinating the way you can use the technology for composition. Loop it and sing along until you get the groove. Then sequence it and loop that, and sing along until you get another layer. And end up with various layers and sequences that you can then mix together or discard...it's composition in slow motion, as it were, like writerly composition is often in slow motion as we go back and through and layer and extend. You can create things that you never would make in one sitting or in a jam. Just like, in writing, we write things that you couldn't write in one sitting. By editing/layering/cutting, contemplating the piece and where it might go, looping parts of it until you really get the next part. I met a guy who roadied with a lot of bands once, and he loved John Bonham (Led Zeplin's drummer) but disdained Stewart Copeland (from the Police) because he felt Copeland was all computers and drum machines. But I love both those drummers. Copeland is in between those beats like almost no one else. Bonham can be too, but his signature is big black dog drumming. But, then, the bands are different like that. The point is that Copeland doesn't just play a drum kit, he also plays drum machines and computers very well. The poor man has a brain and rhythm also. Such a pity! Some of Whitehead's work is interestingly musical. In particular, I'm thinking of The Pleasure of Ruins: http://tinyurl.com/2p74ar Totenklage/Lacrymosa: http://tinyurl.com/33uofw Adio Radio: http://tinyurl.com/2qp6c4 Twilight for Idols: http://tinyurl.com/2tdox7 Lovely Ways to Burn: http://tinyurl.com/2wvehb Most of this is very voice-oriented. Whitehead's voice, for the most part. I think he goes back and forth between the musical, the poetical, the discursive, the dramatic, the live, the dead, in a really fluid, productive, synthetic way. > The digital poetry I'm after, then, I think at least, is one that > recognizes the role that recorded sound plays in the lives of most > people where poetry is concerned. I think there are prototypes for > the kind of thing I'm thinking of, Radiohead's "Fitter Happier" and > Steve Reich's "It's gonna rain" both strike me as gestures in the > same direction. Will have to listen to "Fitter Happier". I recall the Steve Reich piece. I can't hear what you're after, Jason. You're going to have to create it. That's the thing with original work. No one can imagine it very well before they experience it. The author might be able to hear parts of it, or something about it, before it's created, but the act of creating it, getting in there and working with the technology and the voices in the head, that changes it quite a bit, doesn't it. Like the process of writing changes what we had in mind, somewhat, uncovers it, shapes it, so that rather than sitting down and just writing it out, the act of composition is where it gets revealed/invented/discovered. ja ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 05:35:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Self-publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets over the past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole idea of self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the whole concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published or should this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts would be appreciated. John Cunningham No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: 08/02/2008 8:12 PM ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:09:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura hinton Subject: Fwd: InterRUPTions poetry series: Bruce Andrews on Monday, Feb. 11, NYC In-Reply-To: <6283ee870802060950r72853110t3b78f0b16c4c024c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Could you please post? Thanks. Laura ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: laura hinton Date: Feb 6, 2008 12:50 PM Subject: InterRUPTions poetry series: Bruce Andrews on Monday, Feb. 11, NYC To: UB Poetics discussion group InterRUPTions An Experimental Writers Series Announces a Poetry Reading/Event with Bruce Andrews Monday, February 11, 2008 5:30 p.m. Room 6/316 The Rifkind Room North Academic Complex (NAC) The City College of New York * 138th at Convent Ave. New York City Bruce Andrews is the author of over 40 books of poetry, including *Mistaken Identity* (Faux Press), *Lip Service *(Coffee House Press) and *Plans Carry Weight* (housepress). He is also the author of numerous essays on poetry and poetics, and co-edited the legendary journal L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E from 1978-1981(with Charles Bernstein). As a performance poet, Andrews has collaborated in text-music-dance stagings with numerous artists, including the choreographer Sally Silvers. Andrews is also a social scientist, and holds a professorship in Political Science at Fordham University in New York City. The InterRUPTions series is free and open to the public. Refreshments will be served. ------------------- *This event is funded in part by Poets & Writers, Inc. through a grant it has received from Poets & Writers, Inc. It is sponsored by the Department of English at the City College of New York and the CCNY Rifkind Center. For information on the InterRUPTions reading series, contact CCNY Professor Laura Hinton: laurahinton12@yahoo.com. * _______________ * DIRECTIONS: In Manhattan, take the 1/9 subway line to 137th Street. Walk up the hill to Amsterdam Avenue. Enter the NAC Building at the Amsterdam level's south entrance. Inform security personnel at the door you are attending the poetry reading, and take the escalator to the 6th Floor. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:10:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: appearances and publications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks for this barry my wife and i really enjoyed talk at academy On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:19:07 +0000 Barry Schwabsky writes: > If you are in either area, please come and hear me in New York on > Friday, February 8, 6:45 pm, at the Review Panel, National Academy > Museum, 1083 Fifth Avenue at 89th Street, where (with David Cohen, > James Gardner, and Robert Storr) I will be discussing a number of > current New York art exhibitions, or in Austin, Texas, on Sunday, > February 10, at 7:30 pm, where I (with Roberto Tejada) I will be > reading poems at 12 Street Books, 827 W. 12th Street. > > You may also want to check out some recent online publications of > mine: on Lawrence Weiner's retrospective at the Whitney Museum, > http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080218/schwabsky; on the new New > Museum and its inaugural exhibition, "Unmonumental," > http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080211/schwabsky; and a new (or > rather, newly finished) poem, > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2180. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:31:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Roche Subject: Annual Poets Against the War Reading--Rochester Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Poets Against the War event Tuesday The Sixth Annual Rochester Poets Against the War & Occupation event will be held this coming Tuesday, February 12, at St. John Fisher College. Over 40 poets and musicians will be participating. Details Tuesday, February 12, 7-11 pm Golisano Gateway Mid-Level, Basil Hall St. John Fisher College 3690 East Avenue Rochester, New York 14618-3537 Participants Poets: David Michael Nixon, C.H. Appell, Sarah Brinklow, Michael Czarnecki, Norm Davis, Jeremy Fernaays, Dane Gordon, Vincent Golphin, Naseer Hammed, Nick Hogan, Frank Judge, Gary Lehmann, Douglas MacIntyre, Wynne McClure, Sal Parlato, Jr., Rick Petrie, John Roche, Matt Shackelford, Jack Bradigan Spula, Paulette Swartzfager, Eddie Swayze, Agape Towns, David White, Dwain Wilder, Leah Zazulyer Musicians/Singers: Ed Downey, Ian Downey, Nate Coffey & Liza Mugnolgo, Harlow Crandall, Bobby Maville, Brendan Giusti, Rob Rohan, Djed Snead & Opio Bin Yamin, Laurence Sugarman, The Raging Grannies Dance/Performing Artist: Mary Lewandowski Directions, a list of participants, and a downloadable flier in pdf format can be found at the PAW6 website: http://rochesterpaw.freehostia.com For more information on Poets Against the War, visit the the national PAW website: http://www.poetsagainstthewar.org/ For more info, contact Frank Judge, Rochester PAW Organizer, RochesterPAW@gmail.com mailto: RochesterPAW@gmail.com> , 598-4703. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:18:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura hinton Subject: InterRUPTions poetry series: Bruce Andrews will read Monday, Feb. 11, NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For those of you in the New York City area, hope you can come. -- Laura InterRUPTions, An Experimental Writers Series announces a Poetry Reading/Event with Bruce Andrews Monday, February 11, 2008 5:30 p.m. Room 6/316 (The Rifkind Room) North Academic Complex (NAC) The City College of New York * 138th at Convent Ave. New York City Bruce Andrews is the author of over 40 books of poetry, including *Mistaken Identity* (Faux Press), *Lip Service *(Coffee House Press) and *Plans Carry Weight* (housepress). He is also the author of numerous essays on poetry and poetics, and co-edited the legendary journal L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E from 1978-1981(with Charles Bernstein). As a performance poet, Andrews has collaborated in text-music-dance stagings with numerous artists, including the choreographer Sally Silvers. Andrews is also a social scientist, and holds a professorship in Political Science at Fordham University in New York City. The InterRUPTions series is free and open to the public. Refreshments will be served. ------------------- *This event is funded in part by Poets & Writers, Inc. through a grant it has received from Poets & Writers, Inc. It is sponsored by the Department of English at the City College of New York and the CCNY Rifkind Center. For information on the InterRUPTions reading series, contact CCNY Professor Laura Hinton: laurahinton12@yahoo.com. * _______________ * DIRECTIONS: In Manhattan, take the 1/9 subway line to 137th Street. Walk up the hill to Amsterdam Avenue. Enter the NAC Building at the Amsterdam level's south entrance. Inform security personnel at the door you are attending the poetry reading, and take the escalator to the 6th Floor. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:22:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <000601c86bd9$213cff20$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) What better peer than oneself? Depending, of course, on who one is on the day in question. "An idea that is not dangerous is unworthy of being called an idea at all." --Oscar Wilde Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Feb 10, 2008, at 5:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > over the > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole idea > of > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > whole > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > or should > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > would be > appreciated. > John Cunningham > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > 08/02/2008 > 8:12 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:27:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <000601c86bd9$213cff20$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There are mechanisms of peer review that exist even for self-published books. These are reviews-- whether formally published or appearing on personal blogs. Given that many small presses are run by individuals or very small groups, I'm not sure how extensive and legitimizing the peer review process of selection for publication is, though even the idea that at least one other person felt a work needed to be out there can be helpful. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:26:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maxine Chernoff Subject: FW: Clayton Eshleman Reading at SFSU Comments: To: riki rebell-garcia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: maxinechernoff@hotmail.comTo: cwriting@sfsu.edu; viridian@hotmail.com= ; maxinechernoff@hotmail.comSubject: Clayton Eshleman Reading at SFSUDate: = Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:20:56 -0800 Please post to mail lists and friends: Clayton Eshleman, the award-winning= poet and translator of Vallejo, will be reading and discussing his poems a= nd translations at the Poetry Center, Room 512, on February 27, from 3:30-5= :00 p.m. The event is sponsored by the Wordsmith Guild, The Department of= Creative Writing, and the College of Humanities. Of his Vallejo translati= ons, Mario Vargas Llosa says, "Only the dauntless perseverance and the love= with which the translator has dedicated so many years of his life to the t= ask can explain why the English version conveys, in all its boldness and vi= gor, the unmistakable voice of Cesar Vallejo." The reading is free and ope= n to the public. Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo= ur "fix". Check it out.=20 _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta= r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja= n= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:52:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <8EA4CB0E-3E81-4A01-B378-2AADF60C650E@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Most days, I'm nobody, so acting as my own peer could prove challenging. On Feb 10, 2008 11:22 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > What better peer than oneself? Depending, of course, > on who one is on the day in question. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:28:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Crane's Bills Books Subject: Todd Moore, Mera Wolf reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Albuquerque Poetry Reading Todd Moore Mera Wolf Sunday, February 24, 3 pm Acequia Booksellers 4019 4th St. NW (505) 890-5365 www.acequiabooksellers.com Celebrating new publications by both poets: Mera Wolf, Lost Things Todd Moore, Relentless and Tell the Corpse a Story ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:31:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: erica kaufman Subject: REMINDER! Belladonna* on 2/12 (this Tuesday!) Comments: To: belladonna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline ZW5qb3kKCkJFTExBRE9OTkEqCgp3aXRoCgpCYXJiYXJhIENvbGUgJiBFbGl6YWJldGggUm9iaW5z b24KClR1ZXNkYXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDEyLCA3OjMwUE0gKGRvb3JzIGF0IDdQTSkKQCBEaXhvbiBQ bGFjZQooMjU4IEJvd2VyeSwgMm5kIEZsb29y4oCUQmV0d2VlbiBIb3VzdG9uICYgUHJpbmNlKQpB ZG1pc3Npb24gaXMgJDUgYXQgdGhlIERvb3IuCgpCYXJiYXJhIENvbGUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgaGVyIE0u QS4gaW4gUG9ldHJ5IGZyb20gVGVtcGxlIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgYW5kIGhlciBQaC5ELgppbiBQb2V0 aWNzIGZyb20gdGhlIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkgYXQgQnVmZmFsby4gU2luY2UgMjAwMCwgc2hlIGhhcyBi ZWVuIHdyaXRpbmcKdGhlIG9uZ29pbmcgcHJvamVjdCwgc2l0dSBhdGlvbiBjb21lIGRpZXMuIFRo ZSBsYXRlc3QgaW5zdGFsbG1lbnQgZnJvbSBmb3h5Cm1vcm9uIHdhcyBwdWJsaXNoZWQgaW4gMjAw NCBieSAvdWJ1IGVkaXRpb25zLgoKZnJvbSA6ZWFyIHNheQpUaGVyZSB3YXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIGdy b3dpbmcgaW4gdGhlIGdpcmwgaW4gdGhlIGhvdXNlLgpUaGUgaG91c2Ugd2FzIGRhcmsgYW5kIHRo ZSBjdXJ0YWlucyB3ZXJlIGRyYXduLgpUaGVyZSB3YXMgZ3Jvd2luZyBhbmQgdGhpcyBmaWxsZWQg 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ZWZ1bCBmb3IgZnVuZGluZyBieSBQb2V0cyBhbmQgV3JpdGVycywgQ0xNUCwgTllTQ0EsIGFuZCBE aXhvbiBQbGFjZS4KCi0tIAoqKioKInRoZXJlIGlzIG9ubHkgc2VlaW5nIGFuZCwgaW4gb3JkZXIg dG8gZ28gdG8gc2VlLCBvbmUgbXVzdCBiZSBhIHBpcmF0ZSIKCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB+a2F0aHkgYWNrZXIKCioqKgplcmljYWphbmUwODA4Lmdvb2dsZXBh Z2VzLmNvbS8Kd3d3LmJlbGxhZG9ubmFzZXJpZXMub3JnCg== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:21:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: EJOYCE Subject: Conference. Lifting Belly High: Women's Poetry Since 1900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Conference. Lifting Belly High: Women's Poetry Since 1900 Lifting Belly High: Women's Poetry Since 1900 will be held at Duquesne= University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, September 11, 12, & 13, 2008. = Featured poets and scholars will include Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Kathleen= Fraser, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Lisa Samuels, Cristanne Miller, Arielle= Greenberg, Alan Golding, Susan Stanford Friedman, Debbie Mix, Roma Huk,= Dee Morris, Lynn Keller, Leslie Wheeler, Elizabeth Frost, and Cynthia= Hogue. = We invite panel, paper, and seminar topic proposals on women's poetry since= 1900, including but not limited to the direction of scholarship about= women's poetry; producing, accessing, and editing texts; pedagogical= approaches to experimental writing; neglected issues in women's poetry;= spirituality and religion, and the separatist anthology. Panel proposals= should include rationale as well as paper abstracts of no more than 300= words each. Seminar proposals should state the panel organizer(s),= rationale for the topic, discussion format plans, and ideal number of = participants. Deadline for submissions: April 30, 2008. Questions and= inquiries may be directed to Dr. Elisabeth Joyce, Dr. Linda Kinnahan, Dr.= Elizabeth Savage, or Dr. Ellen McGrath Smith at womenspoetry@yahoo.com. = ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:02:27 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Conference. Lifting Belly High: Women's Poetry Since 1900 In-Reply-To: <20080210212154308ccc85ef@webmail1.edinboro.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT will there be readings? g On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, EJOYCE wrote: > Conference. Lifting Belly High: Women's Poetry Since 1900 > > Lifting Belly High: Women's Poetry Since 1900 will be held at Duquesne > University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, September 11, 12, & 13, 2008. > Featured poets and scholars will include Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Kathleen > Fraser, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Lisa Samuels, Cristanne Miller, Arielle > Greenberg, Alan Golding, Susan Stanford Friedman, Debbie Mix, Roma Huk, > Dee Morris, Lynn Keller, Leslie Wheeler, Elizabeth Frost, and Cynthia > Hogue. > > We invite panel, paper, and seminar topic proposals on women's poetry > since 1900, including but not limited to the direction of scholarship > about women's poetry; producing, accessing, and editing texts; > pedagogical approaches to experimental writing; neglected issues in > women's poetry; spirituality and religion, and the separatist anthology. > Panel proposals should include rationale as well as paper abstracts of > no more than 300 words each. Seminar proposals should state the panel > organizer(s), rationale for the topic, discussion format plans, and > ideal number of participants. Deadline for submissions: April 30, 2008. > Questions and inquiries may be directed to Dr. Elisabeth Joyce, Dr. > Linda Kinnahan, Dr. Elizabeth Savage, or Dr. Ellen McGrath Smith at > womenspoetry@yahoo.com. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:20:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: On Where to Find Audio/Sound Poetry//Internet outage in Mid East In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802100226x53996d48ya7b7550a420d05d1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline murat-- my brother Jed used to make the break dance platforms for grandmaster flash back in the late 1970's so hip hop have listened to a long time--now my brother's son is an mc and dj in quebec city-- i just put up earlier today at my blog a lot of things from american indian hip hop, palestinian, congolese, haitian, quebecois, etc--its is world wide-- also bolivia as they have the ffirst President who is indigenous--(usa, canada, australia, new zealand, do not recognize the new international rights of indigenous peoples) you might enjoy checking out some of these-last week i put u a lot of different sounds from around the word including some poetry pieces by jah wobble that are good-- a really interesting group i correspond with is checkpoint 303--they just played Berlin last week-- free tunes from occupied territories www.checkpoint303.com they have a "sound catcher" who records sounds on the ground in ramallah and other places---every day sounds on buses, at checkpoints, gun fire, airplanes, rockets, crying, people in markets etc--and sends to Paris where mixed by another Palestinian--with various instruments and also recordings of different great modern Arabic poets--old recordings--creating some fantastic sound scapes-- i like it that they mix the documentary on-site of live sounds with the studio work and use the cheap equipment for the dangerous situations and then mixed in studio sent to via various means--and Palestinians from other locations work on it also via the emails--from Tunisia, Bethlehem etc- they have performed in London, Paris and Amsterdam--the show last week was for Die Mauer muss weg--the Wall must go--i have the info and posters etc at my blog there site with free downloads is i'm working on sound poems and art works for a cd and a tv show with a guy i collaborate with when he's in town--a lot of my paintings and rubBeings are sound poetry scores--or, in revrse, are visuals of "soundtracks for movies never made"-- i don't think of sound poetry even needing scores at all--bob cobbing and i used to sound the sidewalk cracks in walking togetehr and also the movements of tree shadows across them--the movements of wind--of brirds and their shadows--of chnages in light-- bob pioneered visual poetry without any letters at all--and likewsie sound poetry without scores--using anything--like a rock held inthe hand to sound--etc-- i've been reading some interesting texts on the latest sound recording equipments the military is cranking out-- and a friend and i just jerry rigged a bunch of old boomboxes into a "hoopty" sound system that you can make overdubbed tracks with using cheapest cassettes--that still sound pretty ok-- i like to have a rougher sound, rawer, more "dirty"--the clean sounds like a lot of clean aspects can have negative connotations -- interestingly, in the Terror of the Jacobins, the first Terror being of the State and not "terrorism," which is a blowback of the State's Terror-- the Jacobins had an amazing dual image for the vision of what was necessary to maintain the revolution at that point: Purity and Terror-- the origins of "purges" of State Terror within the State itself, to maintain that state of Purity and Terror at the levels of requisite "equilibrium" sound is also a frequently used instrument of torture--blasting incredibly high decibel levels at the compounds of Noriega and Waco for example, or the Israelis running sonic boom missions over Lebanon and Palestine to cause "shock effects" to the system and psychology--and In torture cells, the changing of levels of white noise which is kept up for days at a time and then suddenly stopped and replaced by a "deafening silence" in which the prisoner's ears keep on buzzing with their own echoing white noise for quite some time to come--causing mental and emotional trauma and anguish, nervousness, loss of sleep, and the eventual borderline or over the line psychoses of sleep deprivation combined with aural disorientation and shock-- a great many rock and roll musicians i know and have known suffer from hearing loss and to some degree, depending on the person, hints of trauma from the overexposure to over amped and saturated environments of sounds and noise for many years-- battlefield environments, areas under constant bombardments and/or sonic booms and the like, have produced a great many "sound effects" resulting in "unsound" mind after effects-- and so have been deliberately developed as a form of weaponry also-- thinking of poetry as an "arrangement" of sounds, or objects, or of touchings of textures or surfaces, heat and cold, smooth or rough, or smells, or of colors or shapes, forms-- it is limitless what can be worked with to create poems-- i practice alot working in the dark outside or in very low levels of light, simply to keep training the hands to see and also to train the eyes to be able to learn to touch--to be able to feel textures-- and with both hands and eyes to learn to further hearing- by vibrations on the skin--and by watching for the effects of sounds on things in the environment-- "necessity is the motherfucker of invention" and so one finds ever more with ever less--with practice--and then when a better level of tools or materials is found, the discipline is there to work with it in unexpected ways-- it's really interesting to listen to sounds not as direct but as indirect--the way they arrive through walls or bouncing off of walls and through doorways or windows, around corners-- since my back has been broken three times, i cant turn al that well to check out things behind me--and living in a dangerous area--i use my hearing alot to keep track of what i can't see--as well as seeing things to the sides or in back in their reflections in hub caps or windshields or of puddles and the like-- i like the sense that when things are around i can make use of them, but if they are not there i can get along fine-- right now there are huge Internet outages in China as well as parts of the Middle east--for some persons this is a hardship for their art work--(let alone life)-if one knows how to make do with anything, one is more independent-- "be prepared" for any eventuality--of having computers to work with and decent machines--or nothing at all--not even a place to live in-- but still knowing one can continue creating nonetheless-- to be existing in the post apocalyptic well ahead of time--to have traversed three times the posthumous-- to have "crossed the line"-- or found a line-- and would not a book be giving one a line that is to say it is from a book one is told in the beginning was the word so that one has a circular self fulfilling self referential prophesy which prophesies the future of its own origins being found to confirm the certainty of its future as being indeed the intended one--"as it is written"-- yet the only "proof" of this, being a book, might well be forged-- or not true having an unreliable narrator--or perhaps an unreliable transcriber-- and so truly before there was the word there was sound, the Big Bang-- the cry of a child whose lungs are suddenly exposed to the air-- it's possible-- On Feb 10, 2008 2:26 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Jason, > > Your observations about pop music, "the real proletarian medium is not > therefore print but recorded sound, etc) is very insightful. For instance, > the "scratchings" in rap are very similar to the chromatism of impacted > consonant sounds I am imagining in digitally mixed poetry. They extend > correspondingly the limits of the "human voice" and the "song," the way > the > telescope extended the limits of the eye. > > Recently, I have been listening (at least for an old fogey like me) to a > decent amount of rap music. If one takes out the cliched ones which repeat > the surface patina of the really good ones, one sees that rap has greater > connections to jazz than to rock 'n roll. The way in the great pieces > multiple movements of sound, texture, rhythm, etc., operate simultaneously > and independently, one thinks of free jazz and certain Coltrane pieces. > Also, here we hit the idea of simultaneity and independence, which you > discuss in relation to "open sentence" and I in "film lumiere." In word > language, the most obvious place this verticality occurs is in puns. But > this parallelism of sound can be extended sometimes to a whole line, where > two statements occur in one sentence. For instance, here is the beginning > of > my poem, "Venezuela," from *Io's Song*: > > Venezuela > > (can, I, dream) a conundrum of advent- > ures > ... > > Your reference to Grenier is very interesting and revealing. Are you aware > that in his "letter" poems at least, the whole poem is trapped in the > visual > (I do not mean this pejoratively). His poem creates exactly the crisis in > reading, the relation between paper and performance, I am talking about. > In > my view, a deep silence surrounds that poem. Of course, by its nature, > Grenier's poem forces him to imagine the poem as a different kind of book, > made of loose pages in a box. I saw him "read" from this poem at The > Poetry > Project years ago. He did it by projecting the letter poem on a screen and > "commenting" on it (a kind of Talmudic riff, a la "film lumiere?"). > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Feb 8, 2008 10:51 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > I've been thinking about this post for a few days now, Murat, and the > > concept of a digital poetry is something that I think is interesting > > to pursue in relation to sound. I tend to think of Jim and Brian Kim > > Stefans whenever I hear the phrase "digital poetry" and although I > > think there's a general trend toward it meaning particularly the kind > > of programming based on-screen poetry that they're so good at, to > > talk about sound as a field for digital poetry raises some intriguing > > questions. In relation to the move from the paper book to the website > > as a means of digital poetry, I think you're right in questioning > > whether that move has actually been made. I personally make no > > distinction between print and online publications as far as their > > worth goes, but I think for a lot of people, the electronic > > distribution of writing is somehow less than its "brick and mortar" > > forebear. I really like a lot of the work that people like Jim are > > doing in expanding what is possible with "on screen" poetry, but I > > think that there's a sense in which this sort of work is truly avant > > garde in the sense of pushing past what's current and looking into > > possible futures. Whereas, as I tend to think at least, Silliman's > > New Sentence was based on a historic shift. > > > > It's funny you bring this up, actually, as a lot of my own ideas > > about poetics got formed in a sort of crucible where my > > misunderstanding of the aims and workings of language poetry, > > including the New Sentence, played an important role. I even at one > > point developed my own off-shoot of the new sentence, the open > > sentence, which is a technique by which prosody is reinserted into > > the basically print nature of the sentence in order to heighten what > > I called in the essary I wrote describing it "the clarifying nature > > of vagueness." That is, you take something that is vague, such as a > > heteronym like "read" and you insert it in a situation where it's > > relation to other words in terms of prosody creates different > > possible meanings, and in those possibilities attempts to indicate > > something unsayable. I tend to use it as a technique a lot in my own > > writing, but where at one point I looked at it as something along the > > lines of a false simile which could be adapted and used by other > > poets, I think it's unfortunately too complex a device to make it > > have the impact I thought it did, and as a result becomes mostly a > > prosodic form of torque rather than actually being in someway > > indexical the way I thought it was. But that's a bit of a tangent. > > > > What I was going to say is that I don't think it's necessarily the > > case that the kind of digital poetry I'm after as a transitional and > > unrecognized movement from encoded typography on a page to a digital > > encoding is really ahistorical in the sense that you're getting at. > > True, the internet and poetry on the computer screen is still in its > > infancy and it remains to be seen exactly where that will go into the > > future. Hopefully Jim and likeminded poets will have their way and > > everything will be as interesting as the digital future their work > > promises. But I think in a very real way, and in a sense missed by > > everybody who took Grenier's "I hate speech" as a call to arms, the > > transition from performance to print is a shift that I think by the > > time This and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E were being published had already begun > > to be superseded. Which is to say, and I often fantasize that this > > thought is original, I believe that pop music is a kind of proto > > audio poetry in the sense that I'm thinking about, and as a result > > most people don't get their poetry off the page, and the real > > proletarian medium is not therefore print but recorded sound. The > > problem with pop music of course is that it is so very beholden to > > music, and fairly unadventurous music at that, for most of it's > > impact that the impact of the words is often a secondary > > consideration. Most pop lyrics are insipid and don't hold up as texts > > in their own right. And that's fine because pop lyrics are just a > > part of the pop song and when considering the quality of a pop song > > all the musical aspects can transform the insipid into something > > sublime and wonderful. I can think of thousands of examples ranging > > from Phil Spectors/The Ronettes "Be My Baby" or Gene Vincent's > > "Bebopalula" to Outkast's "Hey Ya" or Kelis/The Neptunes "Milkshake > > Song." > > > > The digital poetry I'm after, then, I think at least, is one that > > recognizes the role that recorded sound plays in the lives of most > > people where poetry is concerned. I think there are prototypes for > > the kind of thing I'm thinking of, Radiohead's "Fitter Happier" and > > Steve Reich's "It's gonna rain" both strike me as gestures in the > > same direction. Still, there's something about those pieces and the > > other ones like them that keep them as music. Maybe it's the lack of > > emphasis on the words, and I think you're right there in saying that > > what poetry is put together from is words. Or maybe to put it another > > way, Poetry happens in the transmission of words. Lots of people have > > explored the implications of the transmission of words by speech and > > by print, and there is always room and more unfamiliar space to be > > explored there. Maybe more so in the sort of audiotext I'm trying to > > imagine. I think your idea of a pendant to the debussy prelude with > > the mallarme poem through treating the letters as a chromatic scale, > > or maybe more as a tone row, is very much the sort of thing I'm > > talking about and I would enjoy collaborating on such a project. Part > > of what makes all this interesting to me is the space in which the > > poem takes place. For printed work, the space is between the printed > > poem and the reader viewing it. For performance it's between two > > people. Nowadays, for a recording, it's likely to have the illusion > > of taking place inside the listeners head, particularly if someone is > > listening to it on a set of headphones on their ipod. Part of the > > appeal of recording is the physical detachment from performance that > > disintegrates the visual object as part of the poem. If you watch a > > performance you see the speaker, if you read a poem you se the page > > or the screen, but that dissolves completely with the absolute non- > > visualness of a recording. All that's left is the sound of words and > > the illusion of am auditory space different from the actual space the > > listener is in. which i quite like the idea of. > > > > Anyway, enough of my rambling for now. Thanks again for the response. > > > > -Jason > > > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 2:43 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > > > > Jim, Jason, David, > > > > > > Three days ago, I began to write a response to Jason's original query. > > > IBefore I finished it, I decided not to go on with it. Though sound > > > and its > > > complex and in some ways oppositional relation to performance is of > > > supreme > > > importance to me, I felt what I war writing was perhaps too far off > > > from > > > what you were discussing and were interested in. After Jim's post > > > today and > > > his riff on Homer, I changed my mind. Here is what I had > > > written.Mine was > > > going to be longer, but there is enough in it anyway: > > > > > > "Jason, > > > > > > When Ron Silliman developed his idea of a new sentence, he based it > > > on the > > > transformation of poetry from performance to a more reading (and > > > subliminally seeing experience) after the invention of the printing > > > press. > > > He sees the poetry of the New Sentence as the culmination of this > > > distinction between poetry as performance, experienced basically as > > > uttered > > > speech, and poetry as read language. In the slower intricacies of read > > > language, the textural displacements the new sentence might create > > > ("torsions"), Ron sees new possibilities for poetry, a dynamic (a new > > > "concrete music" of torques) those distortions might create. > > > > > > You are after, it seems to me, a digital poetry, reflecting > > > possibly the > > > consuming importance of computers in our lives today. This is a very > > > interesting take; but, before saying where I agree with you, let me > > > say > > > where I see a significant difference. The New Sentence was based on an > > > actual fact, that in the United States a person receives most of one's > > > poetry experience through the page. The computer is not *yet* the > > > medium > > > through which most poetry is received, or experienced. The > > > computer, as far > > > as I can tell, has not yet established a distinct mode of reading for > > > poetry, except maybe enforcing an element of speed, like surfing. This > > > difference is important, though I am not yet quite clear in what. > > > One may > > > perhaps discuss it later. > > > > > > If paint is the basic material of painting and sound of music, > > > words are the > > > basic material of poetry. I can imagine letters to be the > > > synthesizing units > > > of a digital sound poetry. In a number of poets' works, for > > > instance, in > > > some of Alan's, a series of consonants appear in sequences or > > > combinations > > > next to each other. These poems remain on the page, silent - as > > > conceptual > > > or as concrete poems with a visual dimension- because the human > > > voice can > > > not "perform" these consonants all against each other. The > > > resistance they > > > create is too great. But each letter uttered and recorded > > > individually can > > > be then synthesized digitally. I can imagine a pointillist music > > > made of > > > these mixed sounds, the *wave* of music they may create. For > > > instance, one > > > may take all the letters of "Apres-midi D'un Faun" and create a > > > chromatic > > > digital poem out of it, as a pendant to Debussy's piece of music on > > > the same > > > poem. Jason, would you be interested in such a joint project? > > > > > > I think the relationship between Seurat's "Un Dimanche Apres-Midi," > > > Debussy's "Prelude A L'Apres-midi D'un Faun" and the project of a > > > digital > > > poem around the same poem is not accidental; but has a plot. Seurat's > > > painting is filled with a giddy scientificism which permeates the > > > painting, > > > not that different from the giddy excitement with which the digital > > > poem is > > > embracing the new computer technology. Debussy is breaking down the > > > traditional distances separating notes, the way in a digital poem > > > the word > > > or syllable as a unit of sound is broken down into letters often as > > > consonants compressed, impacting against each other. On the other > > > hand, both > > > Debussy's piece and this project refer to Mallarme, the great > > > skeptic of > > > technology, creator of a resistant space full of chance. > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2008 3:16 AM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > > > >> So i've been listening to the various sound poetry and sound art > > >> archives on ubu, and the one thing that has struck me is that the > > >> experimental music type stuff seems to be generally more interesting > > >> than the sound poetry stuff. It seems like there's an awful lot going > > >> on in the sound poetry world that hasn't really caught up to the > > >> technological and aesthetic achievements of various electronic music > > >> types. Moreover, along with being more advanced and more challenging > > >> than a lot of the sound poetry i'm listening to on here, i tend to > > >> think that someone like for example the aphex twin or plastikman or > > >> iannis xenakis or glenn branca is also more accessible because > > >> they're coming at what they're doing from a starting place of music > > >> rather than a starting place of poetry. Googling around for search > > >> strings like "sound poetry" and "audio poetry" one tends to find a > > >> lot of recordings of readings, a lot of them pretty crummy qua > > >> recordings, which I guess is my complaint over all. I did find some > > >> stuff on PennSound that was kind of along the right track, things > > >> that were using signal processing to create sounds and which had an > > >> adequate level of audio fidelity. But by and large the stuff I keep > > >> coming across sounds like it was recorded into the line input of a > > >> sound blaster 16 from a consumer grade cassette deck. > > >> > > >> So I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything out there that's > > >> sort of up to date and concerned with audio quality putting out > > >> experimental audio poetry? Any poets who are making works primarily > > >> seeing them as recordings and not performances? Any periodicals > > >> produced on CD-R with this sort of a focus? I'm curious because for > > >> years I've been doing little audiotext experiments of my own, and i > > >> have a background as a recording engineer so it's just natural for me > > >> to play around with these things, but it had always seemed to me that > > >> the recording as objet d'art thing must have already happened in > > >> poetry, and so I left it alone as a serious pursuit. But listening to > > >> what's out there, or at least what I can find, makes me suspect that > > >> there's some unmined territory as far as audiotextual work goes and > > >> maybe I should start taking my own thoughts on the matter a little > > >> more seriously. > > >> > > >> So I guess what I'm asking is, aside from installation sound art > > >> (which is by and large a subset of conceptual art where it isn't the > > >> sound itself but what made the sound that makes for the interest, and > > >> in my general experience sounds amateurish and/or terrible > > >> consistently), is there anything going on contemporarily that I might > > >> not be aware of that I should be? I guess what I'm looking for is > > >> like a Hi Fi sound poetry movement, something that sees the potential > > >> of recorded mediums beyond just capturing a live reading or euro > > >> modernist sound poetry or "spoken word over avant garde jazz/musique > > >> concret needle-drop backing tracks" that seem to be the bulk of > > >> what's out there. > > >> > > >> Any help or suggestions much appreciated, particularly references to > > >> any journals or periodicals distributed on CD. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> Jason Quackenbush" > > >> > > > > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2008 6:56 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > > >> well, david, you gave jason a lecture, mistaking as a desire for less > > >> scratchy recordings his desire for work that takes the medium of > > >> recorded > > >> sound seriously as artistic media. and i pointed some of it out. > > >> so then > > >> you > > >> gave me a lecture on being narrowly focussed on the audiophilic. > > >> > > >> writing sound is a matter of layers/channels and sequences/takes. > > >> that is > > >> the 'architecture' of writing sound, sort of like the architecture > > >> of this > > >> message is a string of ASCII characters. imagine recorded sound as a > > >> writing. > > >> > > >> imagine the time when writing existed but very few knew how to > > >> write. a > > >> conversation between homer and a not so humble scribe. just write > > >> it down > > >> like I tell you, boy, says homer. homer, you moron, this is not a > > >> tape > > >> recorder, says the scribe, it's a different medium. in the future, he > > >> says, > > >> people will understand that editing and meditating on phrases and > > >> layering > > >> work--editing, in short--is a natural part of the writing process, > > >> and > > >> they'll understand it isn't simply a silent coding of speech but > > >> is also > > >> other things. and poets will be their own scribes, as will other > > >> people--writing will be almost as widely understood as speaking. > > >> imagine > > >> that. and i'm not going to be there. poetry's gonna change, homer, > > >> you can > > >> bet your butt on that. but i love ya, says the scribe. you are the > > >> grandaddy > > >> of it all. tell me that line again, please. > > >> > > >> line? says homer. don't give me that pythagorean technical mumbo > > >> jumbo for > > >> the sake of zeus, boy, speak plainly. plainly. poetry. you know. > > >> poetry. > > >> quoth he with bardic exasperation. > > >> > > >> i think they drank a bottle of wine together later, though, david. or > > >> maybe > > >> during. > > >> > > >> cheers, david. > > >> > > >> ja > > >> http://vispo.com > > >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:36:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <000601c86bd9$213cff20$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want it to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as un-self-publishy as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that they own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having someone else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways to get good work done. On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > over the > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > idea of > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > whole > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > or should > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > would be > appreciated. > John Cunningham > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > 08/02/2008 > 8:12 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:47:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: lawnoguraged In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, I have no disagreement with you there. But finally a visual poem, for instance, is different from a painting; or a lettrist poem different from the sketch of a house, etc. One can extend the concept of language -and one needs to do so- without ending up saying everything is language. Ciao, Murat On Feb 9, 2008 8:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > i don't think words are necessary for poetry, murat. > > there's sound poetry that is wordless. there's lettristic poetry that > concentrates on the letter. there's visual poetry that has another thing > going. > > to me, it's the intensity of the engagement with language. > > you know, if you look at the work of godel, my word, the man is astounding > in his engagement with language. astounding. he's got the funk, murat. not > only does he have the funk, he's got the junk. godel's incompleteness > theorems. heavy junk. > > murat, part of the big picture of contemporary thought and art is an > expansion of our notions of language. > > why can't poetry go there too? > > ja? > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:59:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: lawnoguraged In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802101447p742dbf92u52027ca05e5d0613@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit there are lettrist visual poem paintings, for instance, murat. artists feel no imperative to keep arts, media, sign systems, and so on, separate. they may 'draw' from whatever serves their purpose. this is also or perhaps especially true concerning digital arts, because the borders there between media, arts, sign systems, etc are not re-enforced by analog technologies made to deal with a specific medium or sign system to the exclusion of others. machines of all sorts are re-fashioned, these days, to work with other machines or re-designed to synthesize what previously was separated only by artificial technological distinctions. i think our ideas of language are very dear to us as being close to the nub of our identity as poets and, more fundamentally, our humanity. the expansion of our notions of language brings language into uncomfortable proximity with codes associated with the machine. and with codes associated with previously separate arts and media. fear of dissolution in the corrosive brine of the binary. resentment of the mixing of codes, blood of identity. i think the desire to make clear distinctions between language and code, for instance, is fundamentally an attempt to distinguish between the essentially human and the machinic. of course that is an ongoing effort. and a noble effort. a necessary effort. and it will continue. similarly, darwin's ideas caused us to re-evaluate our notions of what it means to be human, of who we are. it's important to keep in mind that while darwin's ideas may have falsified certain religious myths, what grew out of his work has led us to a much deeper understanding of the relations and connections among peoples and indeed among all living things on the planet. and our ideas of the history of humanity and the planet have changed radically, become much more integrated, less biblically mythic. so that we are not really diminished by these sorts of changes. ja? http://vispo.com > I have no disagreement with you there. But finally a visual poem, for > instance, is different from a painting; or a lettrist poem different from > the sketch of a house, etc. One can extend the concept of > language -and one > needs to do so- without ending up saying everything is language. > > Ciao, > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Harter Subject: Mimeo Author Index In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone,I wanted to let you know that pre-orders for my upcoming ref= erence work 'An Author Index to Little Magazines of the Mimeograph Revoluti= on' are now being taken via the publisher's website at www.scarecrowpress.c= om/catalog/ . The publication dat= e has been set for May 2008. I also wanted to say thank you to everyone f= or your interest and/or assistance in the compilation of this index. The r= esearch behind it was both enjoyable and frustrating (as only the little ma= gazines can be), but I feel this will be an important source for scholars i= nterested in little magazines and the Mimeograph Revolution and one that is= long overdue. Please pass the word!As Ever,Christopher Harter Pathwise Pr= ess/Bathtub Gin pathwisepress.com FORTHCOMING BOOK (May 2008): An Author In= dex to Little Magazines of the Mimeograph RevolutionPre-orders are being ta= ken at www.scarecrowpress.com/catalog/ _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta= r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja= n= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:58:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: 2 NEW Chicago Reading Series: February 15 & 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ***FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 15*** 7:30pm, free POETRY AND PRINTS #1 the editors of House Press and Hot Whiskey Press present a reading with: Kent Johnson Gabriel Gudding Tawrin Baker at Spudnik Press 847 N. Paulina Chicago, IL http://www.spudnikpress.com 773-715-1473 This is off Paulina, just north of Chicago Avenue in Ukranian Village/Wicker Park. Prints on display: "In 2003, a collective of printers working at SAIC established The Fraternal Order of the Print Rat. The Print Rats shared knowledge about print techniques, artists, and resources as well as coordinated print exchanges. The Print Rats were a main source of stimulus for the creation of Spudnik Press. The very first exchange, entitled "The Hunted", will be on display." House Press http://www.housepress.blogspot.com http://www.housepress.org Hot Whiskey Press http://www.hotwhiskeyblog.blogspot.com http://www.hotwhiskeypress.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ***SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 16*** 7pm, free BROWN TRIANGLE presents: Brenda Cardenas Johannes Göransson Roberto Harrison at The Brown Triangle 2214 W. 21st, Pilsen Chicago, IL an apartment-gallery in an attic of a residential building ring the bell on the side door Curated by Daniel Borzutzky Brenda Cárdenas' chapbook of poetry From the Tongues of Brick and Stone was published by Momotombo Press (Institute for Latino/a Studies, University of Notre Dame) in 2005, and her full-length book Boomerang is forthcoming from Bilingual Review Press. She also co-edited Between the Heart and the Land: Latina Poets in the Midwest (MARCH/Abrazo Press, 2001). Cardenas’ work has appeared in a range of publications, including The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century, The Wind Shifts: The New Latino Poetry, Poetic Voices Without Borders, U.S. Latino Literature Today, Bum Rush the Page: A Def Poetry Jam, Prairie Schooner, RATTLE, and the Poetry Daily web site, among others. With Sondio Ink(quieto), a spoken word and music ensemble, she co-produced and released the CD Chicano, Illinoize: The Blue Island Sessions in 2001. Among her honors are two Illinois Arts Council finalist awards. Cardenas is currently an Assistant Professor in the Creative Writing program at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. Johannes Göransson is the author of "A New Quarantine Will Take My Place" (Apostrophe Books) and "Pilot ("Johann the Carousel Horse")" (Fairytale Review), as well as the translator of "Remainland: Selected Poems of Aase Berg" (Action Books) and "Ideals Clearance" by Henry Parland (Ugly Duckling Presse). He is the editor of Action Books and Action, Yes. His interests include translation theory, the grotesque and the historical avant-garde. Roberto Harrison's most recent books include Os (subpress), Counter Daemons (Litmus), and Elemental Song (Answer Tag Home Press), all published in 2006. He edits the Bronze Skull chapbook series and hosts the Enemy Rumor reading series. A collection of his drawings and journal entries, named Ineffable Isthmus, was recently on exhibit at Woodland Pattern book center. He lives and works in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Our second event will be on March 15th and our readers will be Amina Cain and Paul Martinez Pompa. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:38:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <6A7C565A-C65B-4CA1-B64A-ECBB979C253A@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Too, should be considered the idea that creative process is less "mediated" when you self-publish --and though we're all self-editing in some way or another -- you're free to put whatever you want on the cover, regardless of how it might affect "marketability." On Feb 10, 2008 5:36 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want it > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as un-self-publishy > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that they > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having someone > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways > to get good work done. > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > > over the > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > idea of > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > > whole > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > > or should > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > > would be > > appreciated. > > John Cunningham > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > > 08/02/2008 > > 8:12 PM > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:31:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: lawnoguraged In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, Once again, this discussion is going on, first, on the level of the give and take of an argument; on the second level, a mythical struggle is going on, basically a battle of codes, one tryingto gain ascendancy over another. I will try to respond to both, sometimes, simultaneously: a) "there are lettrist visual poem paintings, for instance, murat. artists feel no imperative to keep arts, media, sign systems, and so on, separate. they may 'draw' from whatever serves their purpose. this is also or perhaps especially true concerning digital arts, because the borders there between media, arts, sign systems, etc are not re-enforced by analog technologies made to deal with a specific medium or sign system to the exclusion of others." There is no question that the limits between arts are broken, the concept of a frame is stretched. No disagreement in that. But, I believe, every artist must finally confront the medium in which he or she is working, must "choose," because a created work must always involve a critique, analysis of the nature of the medium it is using. Otherwise, the whole thing is a blur. To me, a lot of "digital" work gives the impression of a kid who has opened the lid of a cookie jar, found new toys. The whole thing is fun, often funny and intelligent; but often, with rare exceptions, ends nowhere. b) "machines of all sorts are re-fashioned, these days, to work with other machines or re-designed to synthesize what previously was separated only by artificial technological distinctions." Do you mean a new technology transforms the previous technologies into "only artificial technological distinctions." Where does this "only" coming from? Does this mean that the "new" makes the old obsolescent, merely a "binary." Is this not itself an argument on the level of myths, involving a battle of codes. What you are saying, it seems to me, is that the "new" is "digital" and the old "binary" ("analogic"), not because something each in itself is different; only that the new is valued above the old for its own sake, an open cookie jar being better than a closed one, etc., etc. I think there is value in resistance in art. c) " think our ideas of language are very dear to us as being close to the nub of our identity as poets and, more fundamentally, our humanity. the expansion of our notions of language brings language into uncomfortable proximity with codes associated with the machine. and with codes associated with previously separate arts and media. fear of dissolution in the corrosive brine of the binary. resentment of the mixing of codes, blood of identity." I think the fear of mixed identity, of "dissolution in the corrosive brine of the binary" is a red herring. It does not exist, unless one takes a moron (as Ron Silliman does the imaginary "School of Quietitude") as a straw man. On the other hand, language is something truly unique, whether you are a poet, or everyday dog catcher. Do you really think language is [like] a machine? What exactly in language makes you think that or proves that. Making such an assertion, are you not yourself indulging in "analogical" thinking, a metaphor; in other words, your assertion itself is mythical, a rhetorical argument part of the battle of codes. d) "similarly, darwin's ideas caused us to re-evaluate our notions of what it means to be human, of who we are. it's important to keep in mind that while darwin's ideas may have falsified certain religious myths, what grew out of his work has led us to a much deeper understanding of the relations and connections among peoples and indeed among all living things on the planet. and our ideas of the history of humanity and the planet have changed radically, become much more integrated, less biblically mythic. so that we are not really diminished by these sorts of changes." Jim, are you aware in the above paragraph you are comparing a skepticism about the all-efficacy of constant technological transformation -with no element of pause and reflection- to creationists and believers in intelligent design. Of course, you have every right to make this assetion; but it does not mean you have shown any facts to prove it. Affectionately, Murat On Feb 10, 2008 6:59 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > there are lettrist visual poem paintings, for instance, murat. artists > feel > no imperative to keep arts, media, sign systems, and so on, separate. they > may 'draw' from whatever serves their purpose. this is also or perhaps > especially true concerning digital arts, because the borders there between > media, arts, sign systems, etc are not re-enforced by analog technologies > made to deal with a specific medium or sign system to the exclusion of > others. > > machines of all sorts are re-fashioned, these days, to work with other > machines or re-designed to synthesize what previously was separated only > by > artificial technological distinctions. > > i think our ideas of language are very dear to us as being close to the > nub > of our identity as poets and, more fundamentally, our humanity. the > expansion of our notions of language brings language into uncomfortable > proximity with codes associated with the machine. and with codes > associated > with previously separate arts and media. fear of dissolution in the > corrosive brine of the binary. resentment of the mixing of codes, blood of > identity. > > i think the desire to make clear distinctions between language and code, > for > instance, is fundamentally an attempt to distinguish between the > essentially > human and the machinic. of course that is an ongoing effort. and a noble > effort. a necessary effort. and it will continue. > > similarly, darwin's ideas caused us to re-evaluate our notions of what it > means to be human, of who we are. it's important to keep in mind that > while > darwin's ideas may have falsified certain religious myths, what grew out > of > his work has led us to a much deeper understanding of the relations and > connections among peoples and indeed among all living things on the > planet. > and our ideas of the history of humanity and the planet have changed > radically, become much more integrated, less biblically mythic. so that we > are not really diminished by these sorts of changes. > > ja? > http://vispo.com > > > > I have no disagreement with you there. But finally a visual poem, for > > instance, is different from a painting; or a lettrist poem different > from > > the sketch of a house, etc. One can extend the concept of > > language -and one > > needs to do so- without ending up saying everything is language. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:44:53 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: self publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just in case you missed it Jason just said: "Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i can't be bothered with all that editorial crap." You have stolen the plot of my novel " The Art of Zen Gardening, With Spot" I had submitted my manuscript in the hope of being published by Jason's new press. The next thing I know, I am reading my entire plot on the list? You left out the part about my dog learning Chinese and working for the CIA. Hey What gives? Russ Golata ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:18:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: d-d-d-d-d-istributivity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed d-d-d-d-d-istributivity own of of istribution, the which law only istribution, the which law only istribution, the which law only istribution, in istribution, in istribution, in the law break which classical only the hols breakwhich classical only the hol s breakown in of classical the then clear it s break own in of classical the then clear it own in of classical the then clear it own clear of that istributivity istributivity istributivity istributivity it istributivity it istributivity it that is the also break ual its form, ual istributivity form, breaks breaks ual istributivity form, breaks breaks connecte istributivity form, breaks breaks also in er raically; in consimore ically; in consier its position. own ra er its position. ically; more consi position. an i quan- am thinking about further the about breakposition. an i quan- am thinking about further the about breakown i quan- am thinking about further the about break own own iscrete), A there B an (iscrete), C, there also exists iscrete), C, there also exists iscrete), C, there also exists iscrete an such iscrete an such iscrete an such ( C, propositions iscrete anC, propositions iscrete an such B AuB=AuC=BuC; can thus now "we iscrete an such B AuB=AuC=BuC; can thus now "we such B AuB=AuC=BuC; can thus now "we valiity why of valierstan ity why of valiity can why now the un ity erstan ee, cannot let be A, boolean. from inee , cannot let be A, boolean. from inee, 1968; let he ee, 1968; let he superposition in , 1968; let he ee relation an right, following: one A sees anrelation an right, following: one A sees an following: two since be are right, following: one A sees an following: two since be are following: two since be are e sie is equal sie to is e is equal sie to is AnB=0. AnB=0. hence hence the right-han e to is si 0u0=0. equal left-han since since but AuB the contains left-han0u0=0. equal left-han since since but AuB the contains left-han C. with since since but AuB the contains left-han C. with C. with us because look right-han however sius because look right-han however sie Cn(AuB); equal because to a the however si e Cn(AuB); equal because to a the e Cn(AuB); equal because to a the - AuB=(+-)u, in where its u entirety, = C ban- a wi- a wi - a with subset th subset th subset subset ban entirety, where we we given given contraiction contraentirety, where we we given given contra iction contraiction Cnu=C=0. iction contra iction Cnu=C=0. iction Cnu=C=0. narratives results emerge? in even expansion rig an venarratives results emerge? in even expansion rig an vea's a x,129 ve a's a x,129 a's a x,129 beginning portens in beginning the "1. has waveform vebeginning porten s in beginning the "1. has waveform vea's has x,129 s in beginning the "1. has waveform ve a's has x,129 a's has x,129 2. waveform spectrum nonzero particular meium. me2. waveform spectrum nonzero particular me ium. meium. everything ium. me ium. everything ium. everything epens epen s epens significant #1 3. #2 waveform "significant" a epens significant #1 3. #2 waveform "significant" a everything s significant #1 3. #2 waveform "significant" a epen ress, aress, recognition: protocol, the recognition: ress, recognition: protocol, the recognition: hysterical an embo embo emboiment iment iment sourceless/targetless spew, communications. an the variants reaing reathe variants rea ing reaing other. other. hysterical synesthesia the ing rea ing other. other. hysterical synesthesia the ing other. other. hysterical synesthesia the efuge, burnouts burnouts anomies anomies 7. thir 7. sex thir 7. sex thir efuge, ascii the unconscious. ascii 8. uncanny/imaginary, uncanny/imaginary, an fantasms, the reaing/jectivity the 9. communities 9. communalities anfantasms, the rea ing/jectivity the 9. communities 9. communalities an ing/jectivity the 9. communities 9. communalities an 10. of isruptions community community self, self, inversion web an10. of isruptions community community self, self, inversion web an isruptions community community self, self, inversion web an isruptions 11. liquiities 11. iities 11. i ities 11. ientity, of entity, of entity, of inversion power. power. entity, shifting, ientity shape-riing. shifting, 12. 12. entity shape-riing. shifting, 12. 12. i ing. shifting, 12. 12. entity i appearances appearances cybermin cyberminappearances appearances cybermin cybermin elsewhere elsewhere cybermin elsewhere elsewhere elsewhere elsewhere ictions, aictions, censorships, censorships, ictions, censorships, censorships, eath oburate aneath the off as net, an urate an /or physical 17. bo ue. the 18. 18. virtual virtual veile veile veile an etemporalizations subject. an 20. generalize 20. generalize 20. generalize 20. 20. 20. problematic in virtual geometries mesaure issipative anissipative an issipative an 21. emotional 21. emotional 21. emotional mesaure generalize phenomenology states, emotional an states, phenomenology states, emotional an states, iscourses behaviors, on states, iscourses behaviors, on iscourses behaviors, on iscourses net. 23. source source an phenomenologies of voice, mouth, iscourses net. 23. source source an phenomenologies of voice, mouth, phenomenologies of voice, mouth, passwor, passwor, passwor , passwor, , , looping, looping, blackholes, blackholes, the blin the 'great beyon.' beyonthe 'great beyon .' beyon.' 25. 26. 26. events events cyberspace: .' beyon .' 25. 26. 26. events events cyberspace: .' 25. 26. 26. events events cyberspace: life, everyay anlife, every ay an life, sociology. philosophy 29. sociology. of ay an life, sociology. philosophy 29. sociology. of life, sociology. philosophy 29. sociology. of ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:49:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Mimeo Author Index In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm reading Mark Scroggin's highly recommended biography of Zuk & among endless details of interest to me is mention of Celia & Lewis self-publishing (there's that word again) the first part of A-9 as a mimeo book in an edition of 55. This was in the early 40s, 25 years before the mimeo revolution took off. Interestingly, they published it in an edition of 55 because that's how many copies were needed to establish copyright. ~mIEKAL The only mimeo book I ever published was an anthology of writing by patients of Winnebago Mental Health Institute in Oshkosh WI,who had taken a writing workshop that I led. In order to do the project I had to agree that no copies would ever leave the building. I never even ended up with a copy for myself. On Feb 10, 2008, at 9:07 PM, Christopher Harter wrote: > Hello Everyone,I wanted to let you know that pre-orders for my > upcoming reference work 'An Author Index to Little Magazines of the > Mimeograph Revolution' are now being taken via the publisher's > website at www.scarecrowpress.com/catalog/ www.scarecrowpress.com/c > atalog/> . The publication date has been set for May 2008. I > also wanted to say thank you to everyone for your interest and/or > assistance in the compilation of this index. The research behind > it was both enjoyable and frustrating (as only the little magazines > can be), but I feel this will be an important source for scholars > interested in little magazines and the Mimeograph Revolution and > one that is long overdue. Please pass the word!As Ever,Christopher > Harter Pathwise Press/Bathtub Gin pathwisepress.com FORTHCOMING > BOOK (May 2008): An Author Index to Little Magazines of the > Mimeograph RevolutionPre-orders are being taken at > www.scarecrowpress.com/catalog/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:08:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: self publishing In-Reply-To: <021120080044.22722.47AF9A85000603DA000058C222218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF98019C050C0E040D@att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I explained at the time, Russ, "The Art of Zen Gardening, With Spot" was much too similar to another property we'd acquired "Fido and the Tao of Daisy's" and we simply don't have a place for your manuscript at this time. We've found through intensive marketing research that the demographic we're trying to reach of women in the first half of their fiftieth year who generally vote democractic but may have voted for Nixon in 1968 and 1972 out of a general disillusionment with the Party of Johnson, who own dogs, have been divorced, have at least 2 but fewer than three children, and who don't have pet cats, trend much more towards the Chinese in their watered down milquetoast eastern religion. We suggest that for you book given it's more Japanese slant go with a micro press targetted more at men in their early thirties with ponytails earning six figure salaries as software developers and are looking to deal with a bad break up by getting in touch with their feminine side prior to initiating their first adult relationship with someone more than 10 years their junior. On Feb 10, 2008, at 4:44 PM, blacksox@ATT.NET wrote: > Just in case you missed it Jason just said: > "Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap." > > You have stolen the plot of my novel " The Art of Zen Gardening, > With Spot" > I had submitted my manuscript in the hope of being published by > Jason's new press. The next thing I know, I am reading my entire > plot on the list? > You left out the part about my dog learning Chinese and working for > the CIA. > > Hey What gives? > Russ Golata ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:00:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <9778b8630802101738m5bbc2ab0qbd53b8e02a2c932c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Self-publishing is ok, but I think it's best and most honorably done within the context of also publishing other people. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Ryan Daley wrote: Too, should be considered the idea that creative process is less "mediated" when you self-publish --and though we're all self-editing in some way or another -- you're free to put whatever you want on the cover, regardless of how it might affect "marketability." On Feb 10, 2008 5:36 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want it > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as un-self-publishy > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that they > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having someone > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways > to get good work done. > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > > over the > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > idea of > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > > whole > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > > or should > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > > would be > > appreciated. > > John Cunningham > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > > 08/02/2008 > > 8:12 PM > > > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:11:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Bhanu Kapil & Dodie Bellamy This Friday at Small Press Traffic! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline U21hbGwgUHJlc3MgVHJhZmZpYyBpcyB0aHJpbGxlZCB0byBwcmVzZW50OgoKCgoKCipCaGFudSBL YXBpbCAmIERvZGllIEJlbGxhbXkqCgoKCkZyaWRheSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMTUsIDIwMDgKClRpbWtl biBMZWN0dXJlIEhhbGwgIDc6MzAgcC5tLgoKUmVmcmVzaG1lbnRzIHdpbGwgYmUgc2VydmVkCgoK CkpvaW4gdXMhCgoKCkJoYW51IEthcGlsIHdyaXRlcyBhdCB0aGUgaW50ZXJzZWN0aW9uIG9mIHBv ZXRyeSwgcHJvc2UsIG5vbi1maWN0aW9uLCBhbmQKYSBraW5kIG9mIGlycmV2ZXJzaWJsZSB5ZXQg bXV0YWJsZSAiZG9jdW1lbnQuIgoKSGVyIHdvcmtzIGluY2x1ZGUgKlRoZSBWZXJ0aWNhbCBJbnRl cnJvZ2F0aW9uIG9mIFN0cmFuZ2VycyogKEtlbHNleSBTdHJlZXQKUHJlc3MsIDIwMDEpLCAqSW5j dWJhdGlvbjogYSBzcGFjZSBmb3IgbW9uc3RlcnMqCgooTGVvbiBXb3JrcywgMjAwNiksIGFuZCAq SHVtYW5pbWFsKiwgYSBwcm9qZWN0IGZvciBmdXR1cmUgY2hpbGRyZW4KKGZvcnRoY29taW5nIGZy b20gS2Vsc2V5IFN0cmVldCBQcmVzcykuIE5hdGlvbmFsbHksCgpzaGUgaGFzIGdpdmVuIHJlYWRp bmdzIG9mIGhlciB3b3JrIGFuZCBwcmVzZW50ZWQgbGVjdHVyZXMvcGFuZWwgdGFsa3Mgb24KbW9u c3RlcnMsIGN5Ym9yZ3MsIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSwgYW5kIGh5YnJpZGl0eTsKCm1vc3QgcmVjZW50 bHkgYXMgcGFydCBvZiBhIENhbEFydHMgY29uZmVyZW5jZSBvbiBleHBlcmltZW50YWwgd3JpdGlu ZyBhdCB0aGUKTEFNb2NhLiBTaGUgdGVhY2hlcyBhdCBOYXJvcGEgVW5pdmVyc2l0eS4KCgoKRG9k aWUgQmVsbGFteSdzIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24sICpBY2FkZW1vbmlhKiwgd2FzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBieSBL cnVwc2theWEKaW4gMjAwNi4gIE90aGVyIGJvb2tzIGluY2x1ZGUgKlBpbmsgU3RlYW0qIGFuZCAq VGhlIExldHRlcnMgKgoKKm9mIE1pbmEgSGFya2VyKi4gIEhlciBib29rICpDdW50LVVwcyogd29u IHRoZSAyMDAyIEZpcmVjcmFja2VyIEFsdGVybmF0aXZlCkJvb2sgQXdhcmQgZm9y4oCocG9ldHJ5 LiAgSW4gSmFudWFyeSwgMjAwNiwgc2hlIGN1cmF0ZWQKCmFuIGluc3RhbGxhdGlvbiBvZiBLYXRo eSBBY2tlcidzIGNsb3RoaW5nIGZvciBXaGl0ZSBDb2x1bW5zLCBOZXcgWW9yaydzCm9sZGVzdCBh bHRlcm5hdGl2ZSBhcnQgc3BhY2UuCgoKCgoKVW5sZXNzIG90aGVyd2lzZSBub3RlZCwgZXZlbnRz IGFyZSAkNS0xMCwgc2xpZGluZyBzY2FsZSwgZnJlZSB0bwoKY3VycmVudCBTUFQgbWVtYmVycyBh bmQgQ0NBIGZhY3VsdHksIHN0YWZmLCBhbmQgc3R1ZGVudHMuCgpUaGVyZSdzIG5vIGJldHRlciB0 aW1lIHRvIGpvaW4gU1BUIQoKQ2hlY2sgb3V0OiAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcHRyYWZmaWMub3JnL2h0 bWwvc3VwcG9ydGVycy5odG0KCiBhbmQgb3VyICpuZXcgYmxvZyogYXQ6ICBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnNt YWxscHJlc3N0cmFmZmljLmJsb2dzcG90LmNvbQoKCgpVbmxlc3Mgb3RoZXJ3aXNlIG5vdGVkLCBv dXIgZXZlbnRzIGFyZSBwcmVzZW50ZWQgaW4gVGlta2VuIExlY3R1cmUgSGFsbAoKQ2FsaWZvcm5p YSBDb2xsZWdlIG9mIHRoZSBBcnRzIDExMTEgRWlnaHRoIFN0cmVldCwgU2FuIEZyYW5jaXNjbwoK KGp1c3Qgb2ZmIHRoZSBpbnRlcnNlY3Rpb24gb2YgMTZ0aCAmIFdpc2NvbnNpbikuCgoKCgoKRGly ZWN0aW9ucyAmIG1hcDoKCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc3B0cmFmZmljLm9yZy9odG1sL2RpcmVjdGlvbnMu aHRtCgoKCldlJ2xsIHNlZSB5b3UgRnJpZGF5cyEKCgoKCgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX18KCgoKRGFuYSBUZWVuIExvbWF4LCBJbnRlcmltIERpcmVjdG9yCgpTbWFsbCBQ cmVzcyBUcmFmZmljCgpMaXRlcmFyeSBBcnRzIENlbnRlciBhdCBDQ0EKCjExMTEgLS0gOHRoIFN0 cmVldAoKU2FuIEZyYW5jaXNjbywgQ0EgOTQxMDcKCjQxNS41NTEuOTI3OAoKc21hbGxwcmVzc3Ry YWZmaWNAZ21haWwuY29tCgpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnNwdHJhZmZpYy5vcmcK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:18:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Justin Katko Subject: Tuesday in Providence: cris cheek, John Sparrow, Angela Veomett MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Program @ Firehouse 13 presents: cris cheek John Sparrow Angela Veomett 8pm Tuesday, Feb 12 Providence, FH13 41 Central Street http://plantarchy.us/the-program poetry--video--music--performance--food--drinks sponsored by Critical Documents and Brown University Literary Arts * * * BIOS cris cheek is a poet, book maker, sound artist, mixed-media practitioner and interdisciplinary performer, whose texts have been commissioned and shown locally and trans-locally, often in multiple versions using diverse media for their production and circulation. His most recent work is a full body of collaboration(s) with Kirsten Lavers as TNWK (www.tnwk.net). His most recent publication is "the church - the school - the beer" from Critical Documents (2007; http://plantarchy.us/Plantarchy_3.html). John Sparrow is researching a PhD in Digital Media and Poetics at Royal Holloway, University of London. He will be performing Ideas on Oedipal Bitstreams, an ongoing work in response to Brian Kim Stefans' Rational Geomancy work. In Ideas on Oedipal Bitstreams, the text is placed between the extremes of printed fixity and dynamic movement in the Flash environment. http://itchaway.net/ Angela Veomett is a PhD student in Brown University's MEME department. In 2006-2007 she was a visiting instructor of Technology in Music and the Related Arts at Oberlin Conservatory in Oberlin, Ohio. She received an M.A. in Media Arts at the University of Michigan in 2006 and a BA in Musicology at the University of Minnesota in 2003. Angela has created artworks in several new media genres, including sound/video installation, multimedia performance, video art, and web art. Her work explores issues behind human communication, group dynamics, and how the physical world influences these ideas. http://www.angelaveomett.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:47:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Self-publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit self publishing pound did it there are many ways types chapbooks etc not vanity presses ie: set up yer own press or publish without a press name this is ok for small chapbooks for bigger books or chaps some presses again not vanity presses will publish book if you raise the money your own or others this is till in a brad sense a formof self publishing even tho someone else's press is used 414 am gotta shut down the presses now i feel it's ok to publish yer own chaps if you get screwed around by broken promises by all these silly little presses that are out there or due to name recognition or in crowd stuff or quality of work judged by those on high sometimes rightfully sometimes not oops i'm rambling gotta make another cover for my next chapbook it's called the unpublished works... also i certainly always feel weird when/if i self publish or have to chip in some money to some poor kid but i don't feel or maybe i do that this de-ligitimzes it the folks buy it one way or the other if they like your work and it can still be reviewed if published properly but i don't feelOn Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:27:26 -0800 Elizabeth Switaj writes: > There are mechanisms of peer review that exist even for > self-published > books. These are reviews-- whether formally published or appearing > on > personal blogs. > > Given that many small presses are run by individuals or very small > groups, > I'm not sure how extensive and legitimizing the peer review process > of > selection for publication is, though even the idea that at least one > other > person felt a work needed to be out there can be helpful. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > www.elizabethkateswitaj.net > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:53:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Self-publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey jason why not publish me on yer self publishing micro-press hey what's a micro-press anyway On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:36:34 -0800 Jason Quackenbush writes: > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to > > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i > > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want > it > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from > > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead > > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the > > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as > un-self-publishy > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no > > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that > they > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, > > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having > someone > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways > > to get good work done. > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > > > over the > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > idea of > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > > > whole > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > > > or should > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > > > would be > > appreciated. > > John Cunningham > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > > > 08/02/2008 > > 8:12 PM > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:49:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Gottlieb, Michael" Subject: Michael Gottlieb & Jessica Grim reading at St. Marks 2.13.08 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael Gottlieb Jessica Grim reading Wednesday, February 13, 2008 at 8:00 PM $8, $7 students, $5 members The Poetry Project St. Mark's Church 131 E. 10th St. (at 2nd Ave.) Manhattan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:22:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <20080211.050933.1248.27.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Didn't Anais Nin self-publish? I've known a few people who self-published and they managed to get some big names to add as blurbs on their books. Henry Taylor, for instance. If a national book award winner or better still, a Pulitzer winner says the book is good, then people usually ignore the self-published part and assume the book is good. It's not that difficult to gain access to the heavy hitters in d.c. as there's tons of colleges in the area. "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: hey jason why not publish me on yer self publishing micro-press hey what's a micro-press anyway On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:36:34 -0800 Jason Quackenbush writes: > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to > > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i > > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want > it > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from > > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead > > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the > > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as > un-self-publishy > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no > > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that > they > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, > > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having > someone > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways > > to get good work done. > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > > > over the > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > idea of > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > > > whole > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > > > or should > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > > > would be > > appreciated. > > John Cunningham > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > > > 08/02/2008 > > 8:12 PM > > > > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: Re: Mimeo Author Index In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable By the way, Christopher Harter's essay "Passion and Danger: The Renaissance of Literary Publishing in the Mimeograph Revolution" will be featured in th= e first issue of Mimeo Mimeo, a new magazine about small press and mimeo culture featuring scholarly essay, interviews, poems, pictures, and reflections. In a nutshell, the purpose of the magazine is to expand and refine the critical discourse of a broadly defined mimeo culture while fostering the preservation of this important aspect of literary history tha= t was the focus of Steve Clay and Rodney Phillips' landmark book/exhibition "= A Secret Location on the Lower East Side." Details on submissions and subscriptions forthcoming. Cheers, Kyle > From: Christopher Harter > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:07:00 -0500 > To: > Subject: Mimeo Author Index >=20 > Hello Everyone,I wanted to let you know that pre-orders for my upcoming > reference work 'An Author Index to Little Magazines of the Mimeograph > Revolution' are now being taken via the publisher's website at > www.scarecrowpress.com/catalog/ = . > The publication date has been set for May 2008. I also wanted to say th= ank > you to everyone for your interest and/or assistance in the compilation of= this > index. The research behind it was both enjoyable and frustrating (as onl= y the > little magazines can be), but I feel this will be an important source for > scholars interested in little magazines and the Mimeograph Revolution and= one > that is long overdue. Please pass the word!As Ever,Christopher Harter > Pathwise Press/Bathtub Gin pathwisepress.com FORTHCOMING BOOK (May 2008):= An > Author Index to Little Magazines of the Mimeograph RevolutionPre-orders a= re > being taken at www.scarecrowpress.com/catalog/ > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta= r > power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja= n ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:42:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: lawnoguraged In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802101731hd1f28a3ia1602265f4b50bb6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Jim and Murat-- Many thanks for your comments Murat-- Jim-- Beginning with Wagner's conception of the Gesamtkunstwerk, there is already a century and a half ago what Dick Higgins named in the 1970s the Intermedia-- For quite a long while the arts, and arts and sciences, and just about every other discipline, have been finding ways to flow in and out of each other, to juxtapose, collage, montage with each other and and create a myriad multiplicities of hybrids, new arrangements, invented languages, newly minted codes. "It is not the elements which are new, but the order of their arrangement"--Pascal This movement of collaging, mixing, scratching, montaging, has been occurring as a response to the continuing specialization and dividing up into ever narrower "bytes" of time and activity and space that is created by technologies and their speeds, not only through space, but in time, the foreshortening of time above all. (Paul Virilio has written a great deal on this and an essay re writing and painting very good in this regard is G. Stein's "Composition as Explanation" Not surprisingly, since the near-instantaneous happening in "real time" has become the time horizon of the military event--Virilio's work is re the military and the arts, and in Stein's essay there is Picasso's remark on first seeing a camouflaged tank in the First World War: "we [the Cubists] have al;ready done this!" Part of why i'm always reading military hardware and tactics books and those of guerrilla warfares, insurgencies, espionage, surveillance, etc is because, indeed they are all mixed up with "advanced ideas" regarding technologies and art: literally the "avant garde" which artist/poets need to finds way to engage with in terms of ideas and materials, examples, situations, etc. The reality of these is that an examination-critique is needed as historically these ideas and aesthetics have tended to become totalitarian, rather than liberatory. If one examines a great deal of the thinking and art and writing since the Reagan Era in the USA, with the huge military build-ups, one finds it moving ever closer to totalitarianism, conformity, authoritarianism. All the "wonders" of the net, the digital, etc of course have been marshalled and arrayed in the service of this, along with ever greater and more widespread paranoiac panopticonism, invasions of privacy, surveillance and hysterical rantings about "security." This is when the fear of "dangerous persons" begins to get transferred to "dangerous" ideas and words, book, images and, as is already happening, persons who hold views that are not in line with the powerful interests are being harassed, defamed, losing jobs, contracts and in some cases of having even the desire to stay in this country. ) One of the problems that this collapsing within real time has presented is that, rather than a proliferation of differences, there is always the possibility of a subsuming of differences under ever bigger and more and more concentrated and fewer umbrellas. (Monopolies, mega-corporations, globalized multi-nationals controlling all aspects of arts/entertainment production and machines, players, recorders, computers, games , programs and the like.) Murat notes the blurring effect of this, one could go further and note that the blurring as it accelerates becomes more focused and clearer as a mass series of nearly identical forms, a conformity with minimal differentiation. I don't see the opposition between "human" and "machine" many do, as humans after all make use of machines as tools, and often simply "personalize" them. What i see as a vastly greater problem by far is that of ownership--as i've written before, the issue of who controls the access to the machines, electricity, the fuels, the materials needed to build machines, microchips and the like. The issues of who has the access to schools, to public libraries with with free online access and books and research materials, with even the most rudimentary materials. More and more millions of persons are being cut off and out of the electronic webs, and cut off also from any form of education or access to the most minimal materials and informations, and more and more, literacy is being cut back among millions of people, including in this country. The "information highway" is like a big one high up with only certain people on it, while off the highway, and a bit below, are the slums of the ones who are not allowed or can't afford to be on the road. (Rap, hip hop around the world is the music that comes out of these slums, (as well as the suburbs and rural areas)-as rapping itself is the first instrument--the human voice. With the voice and then a few easy-to-find equipments-pooling money and resources--there's a way to fight one's way on to the road--the air waves and you tube--) Right now more and more persons around the world and in the USA are having electricity shut off due to poverty, let alone the millions of persons without electricity, web access etc due to wars, bombings, cables cut or broken due to accidents or natural disasters or sabotage. Economic gaps will be technological and electronic gaps, and beyond that, as is already occurring, there is returning at a frightening rate a literacy gap. In the USA, more and more public schools and libraries are closing, and more and more that are open are having electronic access, computers, shut down or pulled back to a minimum. There is a shortage of books and materials, and more and more children whose families can afford it are transferred out to charter and private schools so as not to be left on the other side of the widening gap. The decline in literacy continues to worsen at an alarming rate, and, combined with the cutting off of access to the Web and digital realms, is leaving more and more people doubly cut off from the better off. One of the tactics of warfare today is to destroy and cutoff electricity grids and cables for Internet communications, to control it, to reduce it to minimums or not-at-alls, as well as to shut down schools, prevent delivery of schoolbooks, paper, pencils, destroy buildings, prevent access to roads, erect road blocks--al the methods being used from Gaza to Afghanistan to keep children and young people from being part of the world their occupiers and oppressors are living in. On the one hand, a greater conformity among the haves, and on the other, an ever growing number of have nots, making things al the more easily controlled by the military- corporate-states alliances and structures. Ironically, one of the areas that "progress' is supposed to "automatically" register itself in is "democracy," and yet it is now known that, with 80% of the votes in the USA at all the levels being tallied electronically, the results are are already known to be going to be a mess. The "democracy" of the electronic age is a possibility which is continually being thwarted by economic, political, military,and propaganda and disinformation powers, as well as the--possibly deliberate--malfunctioning of the voting machines I frankly don't see things in terms of the binaries you do Jim--that is, that analog/digital are opposed to each other, or that machine/human are, or one kind of machine is to another, nor the new/old opposition. If you think about it, most of these so -called divisions are created by advertisers in order to create different marketing strategies for everything from baby bottles to "artistic" and "scientific" ideas, theories, "schools," "movements," and the rest. It's also a way to keep people from thinking for themselves and just going along with whatever sounds good at the moment or is the latest thing, the newest product, etc. The latest catch phrase, sound byte, genius, tv show, micro-beer or toilet paper all slide together towards ideas of "change" going on when in fact nothing may be changing at al but the window display. One needs to analyze it with in mind the Italian phrase, "To change everything, so that everything remains the same." "The new" could be and often is the exact same thing, the very same, just wrapped in a different foil with a different name and labeled in ads as the "new" and--heck, sells like hotcakes, whether a form of poetry or home recording studio or shoes or Ipod, or crack or heroin or sex. The poet Paul Celan wrote that "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself." I think before listening and seeing with already in mind that there are divisions among things and that mixing them is good or bad--one needs to listen and look and find things as they emerge, and analyze them, think them through in their own terms. Otherwise, as with more and more persons in more and more areas of life, one finds oneself dependent on and obedient to Authorities. And then the kind of resistance art and poetry is capable of vanishes, because it is not created with anything actual, but with a series of advertising slogans and unquestioned assumptions, a set of conventions of what is "new," or "radical," . Let alone a confusion of metaphors and mythologies with actualities and the elements of materials, codes,situations which may be used in making poetry and art. Rather than "opening things up," a lot of what you are writing about is a "closing things off." "New"/"old" "analog/digital" etcetera are ways of thinking which blind one to seeing a much wider horizon of what is already right here in front of one and all around one. A good deal of what you are writing of as "the digital" for example has existed for a very long time already in the analogical. It is not the machines alone which "make the difference," it is the ideas with which they are approached, and in turn, if one is able to approach them to begin with, or even has had the opportunity to learn to read or write. Art and poetry are not at the level as they are mostly treated in "discourse," "theory" "radical innovative " formalisms--they are rooted in life and death struggles and that is why I am with Murat, that whatever medium or media and hybrids and multi-hyper-super-media one is working with, one works with a sense of critique, questioning, investigation and analysis, and a resistance not in the conventional senses that can be turned into fine sounding phrases for any occasion, and marketed and "taught," but a resistance that comes from one's working with the materials and actual situations and histories as collaborators, companions, rather than resorting endlessly to a dependence on others' systems, whether of electricity or thought or "poetry" or "art," One works really as "a part of" and "apart from" in a both/and relationship, rather than one of either/or separations/group formations. I think a lot of the human/machine divisions you bring up are actually rooted in the ego--if persons feel threatened by machines, it may be because their ego is challenged by them, in that a machine can perform tasks at speeds impossible supposedly for humans, and not just one task, but repeatedly, 24/7, every task it is given to do. It is very strange when one thinks of it like that--for the ego is afraid of the very thing that is doing its bidding. Hence all the sci-fi stories of the revolts of the machines. The ego is terribly afraid one day the servants and peasants, the service workers and "out-of-date models" are going to wake up and get out the guillotine and start the heads of the Kings and Queens and Nobles and Bosses a-rollin!! Storm the Bastille where their fellows are chained to boring programming jobs at no pay at all and always in danger of being replaced by the next "new hot sensation" that comes trotting along-- and liberate them!! Yet machines, as humans have lived with them for hundreds of thousands of years beginning with the first tools--have always been humans' companions and daily co-workers. They exist and are part of our lives, so why see them as separate? And besides, humans designed and built the machines, they are extensions of humans, not something totally "non-human". The non-human that is far more distant than a machine in a way from humans is Nature. Humans make machines, and humans effect nature to quite some extent, but after a certain point, Nature is outside humans, something other, in which humans are but a part of and not apart from., yet don't have the kind of communication and ability to control that they do with machines. As Emily Dickinson wrote in a letter, "The Hills know, but do not tell." And machines tell all day long!! So I better shut up! and get to work among hills and machines in the city streets. On Feb 10, 2008 5:31 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Jim, > > Once again, this discussion is going on, first, on the level of the give > and > take of an argument; on the second level, a mythical struggle is going on, > basically a battle of codes, one tryingto gain ascendancy over another. I > will try to respond to both, sometimes, simultaneously: > > a) "there are lettrist visual poem paintings, for instance, murat. artists > feel > no imperative to keep arts, media, sign systems, and so on, separate. they > may 'draw' from whatever serves their purpose. this is also or perhaps > especially true concerning digital arts, because the borders there between > media, arts, sign systems, etc are not re-enforced by analog technologies > made to deal with a specific medium or sign system to the exclusion of > others." > > There is no question that the limits between arts are broken, the concept > of > a frame is stretched. No disagreement in that. But, I believe, every > artist > must finally confront the medium in which he or she is working, must > "choose," because a created work must always involve a critique, analysis > of > the nature of the medium it is using. Otherwise, the whole thing is a > blur. > To me, a lot of "digital" work gives the impression of a kid who has > opened > the lid of a cookie jar, found new toys. The whole thing is fun, often > funny > and intelligent; but often, with rare exceptions, ends nowhere. > > b) "machines of all sorts are re-fashioned, these days, to work with other > machines or re-designed to synthesize what previously was separated only > by > artificial technological distinctions." > > Do you mean a new technology transforms the previous technologies into > "only > artificial technological distinctions." Where does this "only" coming > from? > Does this mean that the "new" makes the old obsolescent, merely a > "binary." > Is this not itself an argument on the level of myths, involving a battle > of > codes. What you are saying, it seems to me, is that the "new" is "digital" > and the old "binary" ("analogic"), not because something each in itself is > different; only that the new is valued above the old for its own sake, an > open cookie jar being better than a closed one, etc., etc. > > I think there is value in resistance in art. > > c) " think our ideas of language are very dear to us as being close to the > nub > of our identity as poets and, more fundamentally, our humanity. the > expansion of our notions of language brings language into uncomfortable > proximity with codes associated with the machine. and with codes > associated > with previously separate arts and media. fear of dissolution in the > corrosive brine of the binary. resentment of the mixing of codes, blood of > identity." > > I think the fear of mixed identity, of "dissolution in the corrosive brine > of the binary" is a red herring. It does not exist, unless one takes a > moron > (as Ron Silliman does the imaginary "School of Quietitude") as a straw > man. > > On the other hand, language is something truly unique, whether you are a > poet, or everyday dog catcher. > > Do you really think language is [like] a machine? What exactly in language > makes you think that or proves that. Making such an assertion, are you not > yourself indulging in "analogical" thinking, a metaphor; in other words, > your assertion itself is mythical, a rhetorical argument part of the > battle > of codes. > > d) "similarly, darwin's ideas caused us to re-evaluate our notions of what > it > means to be human, of who we are. it's important to keep in mind that > while > darwin's ideas may have falsified certain religious myths, what grew out > of > his work has led us to a much deeper understanding of the relations and > connections among peoples and indeed among all living things on the > planet. > and our ideas of the history of humanity and the planet have changed > radically, become much more integrated, less biblically mythic. so that we > are not really diminished by these sorts of changes." > > Jim, are you aware in the above paragraph you are comparing a skepticism > about the all-efficacy of constant technological transformation -with no > element of pause and reflection- to creationists and believers in > intelligent design. Of course, you have every right to make this assetion; > but it does not mean you have shown any facts to prove it. > > Affectionately, > > Murat > > On Feb 10, 2008 6:59 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > there are lettrist visual poem paintings, for instance, murat. artists > > feel > > no imperative to keep arts, media, sign systems, and so on, separate. > they > > may 'draw' from whatever serves their purpose. this is also or perhaps > > especially true concerning digital arts, because the borders there > between > > media, arts, sign systems, etc are not re-enforced by analog > technologies > > made to deal with a specific medium or sign system to the exclusion of > > others. > > > > machines of all sorts are re-fashioned, these days, to work with other > > machines or re-designed to synthesize what previously was separated only > > by > > artificial technological distinctions. > > > > i think our ideas of language are very dear to us as being close to the > > nub > > of our identity as poets and, more fundamentally, our humanity. the > > expansion of our notions of language brings language into uncomfortable > > proximity with codes associated with the machine. and with codes > > associated > > with previously separate arts and media. fear of dissolution in the > > corrosive brine of the binary. resentment of the mixing of codes, blood > of > > identity. > > > > i think the desire to make clear distinctions between language and code, > > for > > instance, is fundamentally an attempt to distinguish between the > > essentially > > human and the machinic. of course that is an ongoing effort. and a noble > > effort. a necessary effort. and it will continue. > > > > similarly, darwin's ideas caused us to re-evaluate our notions of what > it > > means to be human, of who we are. it's important to keep in mind that > > while > > darwin's ideas may have falsified certain religious myths, what grew out > > of > > his work has led us to a much deeper understanding of the relations and > > connections among peoples and indeed among all living things on the > > planet. > > and our ideas of the history of humanity and the planet have changed > > radically, become much more integrated, less biblically mythic. so that > we > > are not really diminished by these sorts of changes. > > > > ja? > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > > I have no disagreement with you there. But finally a visual poem, for > > > instance, is different from a painting; or a lettrist poem different > > from > > > the sketch of a house, etc. One can extend the concept of > > > language -and one > > > needs to do so- without ending up saying everything is language. > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > Murat > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:58:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Mimeo Author Index In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I produced one of the last mimeograph magazines at the Poetry Project in the 1980's. I hope it is listed somewhere in all of this. If not, I can supply the information to you. Regards, Tom Savage Kyle Schlesinger wrote: By the way, Christopher Harter's essay "Passion and Danger: The Renaissance of Literary Publishing in the Mimeograph Revolution" will be featured in the first issue of Mimeo Mimeo, a new magazine about small press and mimeo culture featuring scholarly essay, interviews, poems, pictures, and reflections. In a nutshell, the purpose of the magazine is to expand and refine the critical discourse of a broadly defined mimeo culture while fostering the preservation of this important aspect of literary history that was the focus of Steve Clay and Rodney Phillips' landmark book/exhibition "A Secret Location on the Lower East Side." Details on submissions and subscriptions forthcoming. Cheers, Kyle > From: Christopher Harter > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:07:00 -0500 > To: > Subject: Mimeo Author Index > > Hello Everyone,I wanted to let you know that pre-orders for my upcoming > reference work 'An Author Index to Little Magazines of the Mimeograph > Revolution' are now being taken via the publisher's website at > www.scarecrowpress.com/catalog/ . > The publication date has been set for May 2008. I also wanted to say thank > you to everyone for your interest and/or assistance in the compilation of this > index. The research behind it was both enjoyable and frustrating (as only the > little magazines can be), but I feel this will be an important source for > scholars interested in little magazines and the Mimeograph Revolution and one > that is long overdue. Please pass the word!As Ever,Christopher Harter > Pathwise Press/Bathtub Gin pathwisepress.com FORTHCOMING BOOK (May 2008): An > Author Index to Little Magazines of the Mimeograph RevolutionPre-orders are > being taken at www.scarecrowpress.com/catalog/ > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star > power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:24:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: The Bible as Graphic Novel, With a Samurai Stranger Called Christ - New York Times In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline when my son Rex was about 7 he and a friend did a coMic book with an immense heavily armed Terminator-like figure on the cover with the title-- JESUS IS COMING BACK--AND THIS TIME HE'S PACKIN' HEAT! http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/us/10manga.html?ref=arts --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:49:03 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roy Exley Subject: Re: - Elizabeth Switaj 'Self-publishing' Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Elizabeth, This sounds great, zen acolytes strive for years to achieve sunyata (nothingness, which might be translated 'nobodyness'), something they often don't achieve despite tackling a seemingly endless succession of koans and receiving regular beatings on the shoulders by the zen master to maintain wakefulness whether that be in the hours before dawn or after sunset, and maintaining a state of silence during most of the daylight hours. I think any ventures into self-publishing for you should involve publishing your secrets of becoming nobody (which is of course different to being A nobody like the Beatles 'Nowhere Man'), I would certainly like to know your secret. From somebody still striving to be nobody. Roy Exley. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 02.11.08-02.17.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 LITERARY BUFFALO 02.11.08-02.17.08 ___________________________________________________________________________ BABEL WE ARE NOW OFFERING A 2-EVENT SPRING SUBSCRIPTION FOR =2440. Tickets for individual Babel events are also on sale. Call 832-5400 or visi= t http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel. March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize, =2425= April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize, =2425 ___________________________________________________________________________ EVENTS THIS WEEK 02.13.08 Talking Leaves...Books Robert Swiatek Reading/Signing for: This Page Intentionally Left Blank Wednesday, February 13, 5 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, Elmwood Store & Earth's Daughters Gray Hair Reading Series Almost Valentine's Reading 50 and over open reading/15 slots Wednesday, February 13, 7:30 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper 02.15.08 The Big Read/Just Buffalo/Gusto At The Gallery MOCKINGBIRD NIGHT - GUSTO AT THE GALLERY Friday, Feb. 15, 3-10 p.m. Albright-Knox Art Gallery_ 1285 Elmwood Avenue, Buffalo __5-7 p.m. Art activity -- soap sculptures. Kids will be taught how to carv= e soap sculptures like the ones in the novel. _5-6 p.m. Race, Class, Gender, Justice: A Fresh Look at To Kill a Mockingbi= rd: a panel featuring faculty and students from the UB Law School_ 8 p.m. Screening of the film version of To Kill a Mockingbird, starring Gre= gory Peck and Robert Duval. 02.17.08 Rust Belt Books/Poetics Plus at UB THE LOVE FACTORY 2008 (BUFFALO'S ANSWER TO ABSINTHE) FEATURING: Ric Royer, Michelle Costa & Others Poetry Performance Sunday, February 17, 4 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. ___________________________________________________________________________ OPEN READINGS As of January, Just Buffalo's Open Reading series is no longer active. Lee= Farallo has told us that he needs a change. We are grateful for all the ye= ars he has put in and wish him luck as he moves on. At present, there is n= o one to take over for Lee, so we are suspending the third Sunday readings = at Rust Belt Books and the second Wednesday readings at the Carnegie Art Ce= nter indefinitely. If these events become active again, we will let you kn= ow. Meantime, we are still sponsoring two open mic readings a month - one a= t Center for Inquiry on the first Wednesday, and one at Tru-teas on the fir= st Sunday of each month. ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS-ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP ALERT: The Writing Crit group will convene at Rust Belt Books on Wed. Feb. = 20 at 7 p.m. to hear Lou Rera read from his new book. No group at the Marke= t Arcade on that night. The next meeting of the JB Writer's Critique group = will be the first Wednesday in March (March 5). Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ___________________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:08:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Snow Falling on White Bread Comments: To: webartery , rhizome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit . It makes you push the button. http://www.lewislacook.org/snow-falling-on-white-bread/SnowFalling.jar Snow Falling on White Bread Java, 2008 Lewis LaCook Director of Web Development Abstract Outlooks Media 440-989-6481 http://www.abstractoutlooks.com Abstract Outlooks Media - Premium Web Hosting, Development, and Art Photography http://www.lewislacook.org lewislacook.org - New Media Poetry and Poetics http://www.xanaxpop.org Xanax Pop - the Poetry of Lewis LaCook ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:25:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stuart Ross Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <000601c86bd9$213cff20$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Lots to be said on the subject of self-publishing. And I'm pretty new to this list, so maybe it's all been said over and over before. I think that self-publishing is as legitimate as any other form of publishing. A lot of crap comes out of it, but that's the case with "regular" publishing as well. After all, getting published by a press only means that at least one other person liked the stuff. As for peer review, there's no reason not to think that the self-publishing writer hasn't given the work to peer writers for feedback, or perhaps mentors, or perhaps teachers, or readers. I mean, it probably doesn't alway= s happen, but it can. Another way to look at this is from the writer's point of view. I both self-publish and have books out from a variety of other presses. I self-publish because it gives me great pleasure, and because sometimes there's a work that I want to appear in a very specific way (perhaps as a standalone chapbook with collages) before it ever (if it ever) appears in a larger book. I enjoy the folding, the collating, the stapling, in cases where I do those things myself. I enjoy examining the first bound copy. I've self-published perfect-bound books, chapbooks, and "ephemera." One of my most common self-publishing practices is the single-poem leaflet, which = I produce specifically for my various readings and which I give out free to anyone who wants one. Obviously, that's a case where there's really no alternative to self-publishing. If I consider the writers I admire in my own community =8B Toronto and environs =8B I have enjoyed reading their self-published works as much as their trade books. Writers like Gil Adamson, Gary Barwin, Crad Kilodney, Ja= y MillAr, Victor Coleman, Maggie Helwig. If a writer is producing good stuff, who cares who publishes the book? Gratuitous autoplug: I talk more about these issues in my (non-self-published) book Confessions of a Small Press Racketeer (Anvil Press, 2005). Stuart On 2/10/08 6:35 AM, "John Cunningham" wrote: > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets over t= he > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole idea of > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the whole > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published or sho= uld > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts would b= e > appreciated. > John Cunningham ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:56:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: Self Publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you're inclined to self-publish, take your chances and do it. Have you ever noticed how the musical equivalent of not-quite-famous-poets, that is local musicians, will just about always have a cd at gigs to sell--cds that they 'published/produced' themselves. And no one thinks a thing of it. If you know what your doing and have realistic expectations, why not self-publish, realizing just about no lit mag will do a review of a self-published chap or book. Then again, lots of small presses don't believe in bothering to try to get reviews as they believe reviews of not-quite-famous poets don't sell many, if any, books. Charlie -- "WALK in the world you can't see anything from a car window, still less from a plane or from the moon" William Carlos Williams www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/charlierossiter hear Charlie as solo performance poet www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:34:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Re: Self-publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That is a freedom you are given by self publishing. It is always a good idea to have someone else edit your manuscript. Why worry about the marketability of your cover? Who is your target readership? If your book is supported by your poet friends, or even if you market it yourself at signings and travel, the cover should be someting that pleases YOU. Freedom can be a wonderful thing Russ Golata ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:46:38 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Re: Self Publishing Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Charlie,=20 I've been stagnant with furniture press for the last two years - but you've= given me something to think about: a review journal specifically dedicated= to all self-publishing ventures - with reviews by folks worth their salt. = Whatever that means... What's everyone think? This would be a great way to get talent noticed. Christophe Casamassima > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charlie Rossiter" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Self Publishing > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:56:56 -0600 >=20 >=20 > If you're inclined to self-publish, take your chances and do it. >=20 > Have you ever noticed how the musical equivalent of > not-quite-famous-poets, that is local musicians, will just about always > have a cd at gigs to sell--cds that they 'published/produced' themselves. > And no one thinks a thing of it. >=20 > If you know what your doing and have realistic expectations, why not > self-publish, realizing just about no lit mag will do a review of a > self-published chap or book. Then again, lots of small presses don't > believe in bothering to try to get reviews as they believe reviews of > not-quite-famous poets don't sell many, if any, books. >=20 > Charlie >=20 > -- > "WALK in the world > you can't see anything from a car window, > still less from a plane or from the moon" > William Carlos Williams >=20 > www.poetrypoetry.com > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them >=20 > www.myspace.com/charlierossiter > hear Charlie as solo performance poet >=20 > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) >=20 > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues >=20 > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > =3D Swimming Pool Fence 5% Off Pool Fence in October. Designed to BOCA Safety Guidelines. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3Dfc37af8beebbdd0d9e8b6= a4f454d1f7c --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:57:36 -0800 Reply-To: layne@whiteowlweb.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Subject: Re: Self Publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and then there are the poets who start that way, or continue that way, = or only occasionally do some unique self-published book, and are quite = well known and regarded. you just never know. I say, absolutely, go = for it. just be sure to do a good layout job, come up with a good = publishing name, do perfect binding, and get your ISBN - do it right. = it's legit. it counts. and after a few, you will have your page at the = beginning that says, "Other books by ...." you can build your "resume" and down the line perhaps some publisher = will pick you up. if not, you still have your library of works. yes, = it counts. have you done a search on well known self published authors? you will = be amazed at who is listed. layne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:14:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: Technciens du Sacr=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9?= - Readings & visits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear one and all - =20 This time Diane Rothenberg and I are off on a really long trip, = commencing on February 19 and terminating on May 1st. The occasion = above all is the publication by Editions Jose Corti, Paris, of = Technciens du Sacr=E9 (complete French version translated by Yves Di = Manno). =20 =20 The stops along the way follow. =20 From February 19 to the afternoon of February 26 we'll be in New York = City and can be reached at Milton Resnick's old synagogue studio on = Eldridge Street. I will be reading on February 20 at the St Marks = Poetry Center with old Fluxus companion Alison Knowles, starting time: = 8:00 p.m. =20 On February 27 we arrive in Paris and will be there through March 31 at = Margo Bertdeshevsky's apartment on Roi de Sicile, while any books sent = to me are best addressed c/o Librairie Corti, 11 rue de M=E9dicis, 75006 = Paris. After that the expectation is to move around France and nearby = points until April 18. Readings and talks during that time, as follows, = with two or three others still to be announced: =20 March 4: Geneva, Switzerland, a reading for Roaratorio and La Cave = 12. March 7: Mus=E9e du Quai Branly, Paris, 7:00 p.m., reading and = launch of Techniciens du Sacr=E9, with Yves Di Manno. March 13, 5:00 p.m.: Lecture, "The Anthology as a Manifesto," for = UFR Etudes Anglophones, Charles V, Paris 7.=20 March 18: Reading at Maison de la Po=E9sie, Paris, also with Yves Di = Manno.=20 March 20: Reading/talk, Ecole Media Art Fructidor, in = Chalon-sur-Saone. March 28, 7:00 p.m.: Reading with Yves Di Manno at Le Livre = bookstore, Tours. =20 April 4: Reading with Yves Di Manno, at CIPM (Centre Internationale = de la Po=E9sie), Marseille. =20 On April 18 we will fly from Paris to Berlin and will be there until = departure on April 25th for return to the U.S. On April 28 and 29 I = will be a Kelly Writers House Fellow at the University of Pennsylvania = in Philadelphia, talk and reading to be announced. =20 While in the States we can be reached most easily at our cell phone, = 760-415-9889, and throughout the trip the current email address = (jrothenberg@cox.net) should be working. =20 Hoping to see some of you along the way, and warm best wishes, =20 JERRY and DIANE=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Self-publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit good point as i did with my small non-existent press On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:00:47 -0800 Hugh Behm-Steinberg writes: > Self-publishing is ok, but I think it's best and most honorably done > within the context of also publishing other people. > > Hugh Behm-Steinberg > > Ryan Daley wrote: Too, should be considered the > idea that creative process is less "mediated" > when you self-publish --and though we're all self-editing in some > way or > another -- you're free to put whatever you want on the cover, > regardless of > how it might affect "marketability." > > On Feb 10, 2008 5:36 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press > to > > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because > i > > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want > it > > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor > from > > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead > > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about > the > > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as > un-self-publishy > > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost > no > > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that > they > > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, > marketing, > > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having > someone > > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are > ways > > to get good work done. > > > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various > poets > > > over the > > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > > idea of > > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass > the > > > whole > > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so > published > > > or should > > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your > thoughts > > > would be > > > appreciated. > > > John Cunningham > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release > Date: > > > 08/02/2008 > > > 8:12 PM > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:10:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stuart Ross Subject: Re: Mimeo Author Index In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 2/10/08 11:49 PM, "mIEKAL aND" wrote: > The only mimeo book I ever published was an anthology of writing by > patients of Winnebago Mental Health Institute in Oshkosh WI,who had > taken a writing workshop that I led. In order to do the project I > had to agree that no copies would ever leave the building. I never > even ended up with a copy for myself. I also did only one mimeo book. It was a short story I wrote collaboratively with Mark Laba called Africa: A Tale of Moscow. It was about 20 pages, justified prose, in an edition of 125. The only item in the Weeping Monk Editions imprint of my Proper Tales Press. A couple of my things have been published in mimeo by jwcurry. Stuart ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stuart Ross Subject: Re: Self Publishing In-Reply-To: <20080211214638.45B2213F1C@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Christophe -- That's a really great idea. I wonder no one has thought of it before (if, in fact, they haven't). Maybe because of the stigma of self-publishing. From 1982 to around 1996 I published a small mag called Mondo Hunkamooga: A Journal of Small Press Reviews. I covered a lot of self-published stuff in there, but not exclusively. I look forward to your review journal! (Now that you're committed to doing it.) Stuart On 2/11/08 4:46 PM, "Christophe Casamassima" wrote: > Charlie, > > I've been stagnant with furniture press for the last two years - but you've > given me something to think about: a review journal specifically dedicated to > all self-publishing ventures - with reviews by folks worth their salt. > Whatever that means... > > What's everyone think? This would be a great way to get talent noticed. > > Christophe Casamassima ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:20:31 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Caleb Cluff Subject: Re: Self Publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Curiously, it's a topic for our bookshow, here today with the ABC in Australia... http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bookshow/stories/2008/2157949.htm With Jonathon Rose from UNJ. Marketing and modernism. Hmmmm. What CAN I get away with? Caleb=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Christophe Casamassima Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2008 8:47 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Self Publishing Charlie,=20 I've been stagnant with furniture press for the last two years - but you've given me something to think about: a review journal specifically dedicated to all self-publishing ventures - with reviews by folks worth their salt. Whatever that means... What's everyone think? This would be a great way to get talent noticed. Christophe Casamassima > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charlie Rossiter" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Self Publishing > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:56:56 -0600 >=20 >=20 > If you're inclined to self-publish, take your chances and do it. >=20 > Have you ever noticed how the musical equivalent of > not-quite-famous-poets, that is local musicians, will just about always > have a cd at gigs to sell--cds that they 'published/produced' themselves. > And no one thinks a thing of it. >=20 > If you know what your doing and have realistic expectations, why not > self-publish, realizing just about no lit mag will do a review of a > self-published chap or book. Then again, lots of small presses don't > believe in bothering to try to get reviews as they believe reviews of > not-quite-famous poets don't sell many, if any, books. >=20 > Charlie >=20 > -- > "WALK in the world > you can't see anything from a car window, > still less from a plane or from the moon" > William Carlos Williams >=20 > www.poetrypoetry.com > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them >=20 > www.myspace.com/charlierossiter > hear Charlie as solo performance poet >=20 > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) >=20 > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues >=20 > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > =3D Swimming Pool Fence 5% Off Pool Fence in October. Designed to BOCA Safety Guidelines. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3Dfc37af8beebbdd0d9e8= b 6a4f454d1f7c --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:55:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Self Publishing In-Reply-To: <20080211214638.45B2213F1C@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I don't know if I'm worht my salt, but I think it's a great idea and would happily contribute. On Tue, 12 Feb 2008, Christophe Casamassima wrote: > Charlie, > > I've been stagnant with furniture press for the last two years - but you've given me something to think about: a review journal specifically dedicated to all self-publishing ventures - with reviews by folks worth their salt. Whatever that means... > > What's everyone think? This would be a great way to get talent noticed. > > Christophe Casamassima > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Charlie Rossiter" >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Self Publishing >> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:56:56 -0600 >> >> >> If you're inclined to self-publish, take your chances and do it. >> >> Have you ever noticed how the musical equivalent of >> not-quite-famous-poets, that is local musicians, will just about always >> have a cd at gigs to sell--cds that they 'published/produced' themselves. >> And no one thinks a thing of it. >> >> If you know what your doing and have realistic expectations, why not >> self-publish, realizing just about no lit mag will do a review of a >> self-published chap or book. Then again, lots of small presses don't >> believe in bothering to try to get reviews as they believe reviews of >> not-quite-famous poets don't sell many, if any, books. >> >> Charlie >> >> -- >> "WALK in the world >> you can't see anything from a car window, >> still less from a plane or from the moon" >> William Carlos Williams >> >> www.poetrypoetry.com >> where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them >> >> www.myspace.com/charlierossiter >> hear Charlie as solo performance poet >> >> www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) >> >> www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview >> hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues >> >> www.myspace.com/jackthe71special >> hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > >> > > > = > Swimming Pool Fence > 5% Off Pool Fence in October. Designed to BOCA Safety Guidelines. > http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=fc37af8beebbdd0d9e8b6a4f454d1f7c > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:52:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Self Publishing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes: a great idea, Christophe. I'll bet hundreds of interesting self-published works appear each year, many so 'different' that publishers balk at investing in them. A review like the one you propose would do a great service to a broad and largely undiscovered spectrum of creators. Best, ~ Dan Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christophe Casamassima" To: Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Self Publishing Charlie, I've been stagnant with furniture press for the last two years - but you've given me something to think about: a review journal specifically dedicated to all self-publishing ventures - with reviews by folks worth their salt. Whatever that means... What's everyone think? This would be a great way to get talent noticed. Christophe Casamassima > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charlie Rossiter" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Self Publishing > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:56:56 -0600 > > > If you're inclined to self-publish, take your chances and do it. > > Have you ever noticed how the musical equivalent of > not-quite-famous-poets, that is local musicians, will just about always > have a cd at gigs to sell--cds that they 'published/produced' themselves. > And no one thinks a thing of it. > > If you know what your doing and have realistic expectations, why not > self-publish, realizing just about no lit mag will do a review of a > self-published chap or book. Then again, lots of small presses don't > believe in bothering to try to get reviews as they believe reviews of > not-quite-famous poets don't sell many, if any, books. > > Charlie > > -- > "WALK in the world > you can't see anything from a car window, > still less from a plane or from the moon" > William Carlos Williams > > www.poetrypoetry.com > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them > > www.myspace.com/charlierossiter > hear Charlie as solo performance poet > > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) > > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues > > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > = Swimming Pool Fence 5% Off Pool Fence in October. Designed to BOCA Safety Guidelines. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=fc37af8beebbdd0d9e8b6a4f454d1f7c -- Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:07:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: - Elizabeth Switaj 'Self-publishing' In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Roy, The secret is to throw out that zen stuff and crib it all from Emily Dickinson. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:34:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Reasons to self-publish In-Reply-To: <012201c86cf9$1e5b8530$0300000a@whiteowl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. Because no one is going to put as much care & attention into your =20 work as yourself... (with some notable exceptions) 2. Title was originally printed by another press & is now out of print. 3. Control over design & production values. 4. Easily available copies. 5. Services such as lulu.com, bookmobile.com, & booksurge make a =20 particular type of publishing a no-brainer. 6. Circumvent a delay of months to many years waiting for the title =20 to come out after it's accepted. 7. Because seeing a book from creation all the way thru to =20 distribution & promotion will destroy almost all romantic notions one =20= might have of being famous & published by a major publisher. 8. The more it is an accepted practice among poets the more academia =20 will have to contend & make sense of it as part of 9. DIY 10. Previously mentioned by Stuart=97collating, folding stapling & =20 binding can a lot of fun 11. There is a long history of poets publishing their most difficult =20= work because no one else would take the risk. 12. Whether or not the title makes money is moot. ~mIEKAL= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:42:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Critiphoria Comments: To: Poetryetc , UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.critiphoria.org/Issue1.html Of the many critical pieces in critiphoria - of which I only have read a few so far - I just wanted to put in a good cheer for this enterprise. Delightful work by Norman Fisher. Rachel Blau du Plessix and Nick Piombino, each variously trying to locate the position, function and capability of the 'word' - interesting to me in a time when 'we be' flush with so many words, so much of which are unmoored to anything but the agenda of some either demonic or self-serving 'other'. But whatever one's sense of need, Critiphoria also fills a gap by pulling together many strands of thought/analysis under the embarace of one umbrella. Tho I don't find the essays intentionally 'academic' in any "going for tenure" sense, for those of us who are counter-marginal in some larger sense, it's nice to be able to go to a broad horizon, wander around and benefit from the shade of 'multiple trees'. I suggest, go there. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:13:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: North American Ideophonics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I have been searching for sometime now for a collection of the pamphlets mailed out by Mark Nowak in the early 90's as "North American Ideophonics." If anyone knows if such an assemblage exists please let me know. Adam ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:27:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <20080211.050933.1248.27.skyplums@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's like a small press but even smaller. I'm figuring on doing a book every two years and a chapbook every year. I'd love to publish you, but i want to make my biggest mistakes with my own material first. On Feb 11, 2008, at 1:53 AM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > hey jason why not publish me on yer self publishing micro-press hey > what's a micro-press anyway > > On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:36:34 -0800 Jason Quackenbush > writes: >> Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen >> from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- >> published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to >> >> publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i >> >> can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want >> it >> to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from >> >> a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead >> >> tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. >> >> that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the >> >> nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as >> un-self-publishy >> as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece >> investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no >> >> presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that >> they >> own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, >> >> editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having >> someone >> else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways >> >> to get good work done. >> >> On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: >> >>> As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets >> >>> over the >>> past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole >>> idea of >>> self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the >> >>> whole >>> concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published >> >>> or should >>> this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts >> >>> would be >>> appreciated. >>> John Cunningham >>> >>> No virus found in this outgoing message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: >> >>> 08/02/2008 >>> 8:12 PM >>> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:47:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: <20080211.173033.1896.12.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd be very curious to hear what those of you who have served on academic s= earch committees in the past *decade* where you've hired poets to real tenu= re-track academic positions (as opposed to adjunct or multi-year contracts)= might have to say. =20 How many poets have you hired who have said for themselves that the full-le= ngth that made them eligible for the position in the first place "was a sma= ll run that I did through Bookmobile" have been given tenure-track offers? = or even seriously considered? =20 This is not rhetorical. =20 David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo= ur "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:01:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Starting a poetic ezine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After conducting a few interviews with various poets in Canada, I've realized that there remains a huge divide between the English and the French poets. I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba where we have a huge French speaking population and, yet, other than at the Winnipeg Writers Festival, I've never heard a French poet read. Nor have I ever seen any publications by French Manitoba poets at my local bookstores. There is a huge world of poetry of which I am unaware. And I don't feel as if I'm alone in this regard. Then there are the Quebecois poets from Quebec and the Acadian poets from New Brunswick. I'm interested in starting a poetry magazine titled 'Poetry In Translation' which would be an attempt at remedying this situation. However, the Manitoba Arts Council will not provide start up funding. You have to have two issues in print before they will consider you - ostensibly so that they can tell whether there is a demand for your product. In order to avoid costs (other than the expense of my time), I thought that an ezine might be the way to go. However, I know diddly about how to go about setting up an ezine. Can anyone out there provide me with some guidance and advice? John Cunningham No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1270 - Release Date: 10/02/2008 12:21 PM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 01:05:52 -0500 Reply-To: Joel Lewis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Lewis Subject: Re: Mimeo Author Index Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, the mimeo, the 8-track cartridge of the poetry world! Along with Tom savage, i was one of the last poets to use PP's mimeo machine to do my Three Work chapbook plus the last two issues of my magazine AHNOI (oddly first thre issues were done via Qwicky Print-type offset). remember going up to 42nd & 3rd to last shop in city that sold the ink & masters. like others, i switched off to photocopying--like many who worked in offices, sneaking off copies while the bosses weren't looking. Also in mid-80d period the rise of kinko-type shops that were offering fairly photocopying, including colating, stapling, etc. Who knew that 25 years down the road, someone would take the trouble of indexing it all joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:20:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Dodie Bellamy & Bhanu Kapil at SPT 2/15/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Bhanu Kapil & Dodie Bellamy Friday, February 15, 2008 Timken Lecture Hall 7:30 p.m. Refreshments will be served Join us! Bhanu Kapil writes at the intersection of poetry, prose, non-fiction and a kind of irreversible yet mutable "document." Her works include The Vertical Interrogation of Strangers (Kelsey Street Press, 2001), Incubation: a space for monsters (Leon Works, 2006), and Humanimal, a project for future children (forthcoming from Kelsey Street Press). Nationally, she has given readings of her work and presented lectures/panel talks on monsters, cyborgs, architecture, and hybridity; most recently as part of a CalArts conference on experimental writing at the LAMoca. She teaches at Naropa University. Dodie Bellamy's collection, Academonia, was published by Krupskaya in 2006. Other books include Pink Steam and The Letters of Mina Harker. Her book Cunt-Ups won the 2002 Firecracker Alternative Book Award for poetry. In January, 2006, she curated an installation of Kathy Acker's clothing for White Columns, New York's oldest alternative art space. Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Dana Teen Lomax, Interim Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:18:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Technciens du Sacr=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9?= - Readings & visits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit fantastic see you at the reading and give margo paris and the cipm folks my regards On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:14:51 -0800 Jerome Rothenberg writes: > Dear one and all - > > > > This time Diane Rothenberg and I are off on a really long trip, > commencing on February 19 and terminating on May 1st. The occasion > above all is the publication by Editions Jose Corti, Paris, of > Technciens du Sacré (complete French version translated by Yves Di > Manno). > > > > The stops along the way follow. > > > > From February 19 to the afternoon of February 26 we'll be in New > York City and can be reached at Milton Resnick's old synagogue > studio on Eldridge Street. I will be reading on February 20 at the > St Marks Poetry Center with old Fluxus companion Alison Knowles, > starting time: 8:00 p.m. > > > > On February 27 we arrive in Paris and will be there through March 31 > at Margo Bertdeshevsky's apartment on Roi de Sicile, while any books > sent to me are best addressed c/o Librairie Corti, 11 rue de > Médicis, 75006 Paris. After that the expectation is to move around > France and nearby points until April 18. Readings and talks during > that time, as follows, with two or three others still to be > announced: > > > > March 4: Geneva, Switzerland, a reading for Roaratorio and La > Cave 12. > March 7: Musée du Quai Branly, Paris, 7:00 p.m., reading and > launch of Techniciens du Sacré, with Yves Di Manno. > March 13, 5:00 p.m.: Lecture, "The Anthology as a Manifesto," > for UFR Etudes Anglophones, Charles V, Paris 7. > March 18: Reading at Maison de la Poésie, Paris, also with Yves > Di Manno. > > March 20: Reading/talk, Ecole Media Art Fructidor, in > Chalon-sur-Saone. > > March 28, 7:00 p.m.: Reading with Yves Di Manno at Le Livre > bookstore, Tours. > > April 4: Reading with Yves Di Manno, at CIPM (Centre > Internationale de la Poésie), Marseille. > > > > On April 18 we will fly from Paris to Berlin and will be there until > departure on April 25th for return to the U.S. On April 28 and 29 I > will be a Kelly Writers House Fellow at the University of > Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, talk and reading to be announced. > > > > While in the States we can be reached most easily at our cell phone, > 760-415-9889, and throughout the trip the current email address > (jrothenberg@cox.net) should be working. > > > > Hoping to see some of you along the way, > > and warm best wishes, > > > > JERRY and DIANE > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:06:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Self Publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey that furniture guy owes me a book On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:46:38 +0800 Christophe Casamassima writes: > Charlie, > > I've been stagnant with furniture press for the last two years - but > you've given me something to think about: a review journal > specifically dedicated to all self-publishing ventures - with > reviews by folks worth their salt. Whatever that means... > > What's everyone think? This would be a great way to get talent > noticed. > > Christophe Casamassima > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Charlie Rossiter" > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Self Publishing > > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:56:56 -0600 > > > > > > If you're inclined to self-publish, take your chances and do it. > > > > Have you ever noticed how the musical equivalent of > > not-quite-famous-poets, that is local musicians, will just about > always > > have a cd at gigs to sell--cds that they 'published/produced' > themselves. > > And no one thinks a thing of it. > > > > If you know what your doing and have realistic expectations, why > not > > self-publish, realizing just about no lit mag will do a review of > a > > self-published chap or book. Then again, lots of small presses > don't > > believe in bothering to try to get reviews as they believe reviews > of > > not-quite-famous poets don't sell many, if any, books. > > > > Charlie > > > > -- > > "WALK in the world > > you can't see anything from a car window, > > still less from a plane or from the moon" > > William Carlos Williams > > > > www.poetrypoetry.com > > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them > > > > www.myspace.com/charlierossiter > > hear Charlie as solo performance poet > > > > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) > > > > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues > > > > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > > > > > > = > Swimming Pool Fence > 5% Off Pool Fence in October. Designed to BOCA Safety Guidelines. > http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=fc37af8beebbdd0d9e8b6 a4f454d1f7c > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:00:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: lawnoguraged In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802101731hd1f28a3ia1602265f4b50bb6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Once again, this discussion is going on, first, on the level of > the give and > take of an argument; on the second level, a mythical struggle is going on, > basically a battle of codes, one tryingto gain ascendancy over another. the tensions between print and the digital, if that is what you are referring to, are of course well known. but somehow to cast both our conversation and the overall situation itself as a battle for ascendancy doesn't seem quite right, Murat. if you see our conversation as a battle for ascendancy, then that sounds, well, rather fearful or frightful. i would rather create art, wouldn't you? but, secondly, print is not dying and neither is the digital. one of the interesting things i'm getting from the book called the oulipo compendium is that the production of literature was never the primary direction of the oulipo. they characterize it more as the creation of interesting literary forms and, perhaps more generally, the creation of something other than literature, the creation of approaches to the literary that synthesize mathematics and the literary, for instance. in quite a deep way. for instance, bourbaki is or was associated with the oulipo; bourbaki is a collective of mathematicians who are mainly known not so much for original mathematics as the books they wrote that present work that had already been done but had not been related quite so closely as in their presentation and, also, their presentation or writing style became the standard of academic papers for a decade or more. Writing is central to Bourbaki. As is a kind of erm well you wouldn't call it narrative, but the development from first principles of various fields through to more complex results. So Bourbaki was quite literary in the sense that they were intensely engaged with language. Writing was one of their main concerns. How mathematics can be written. in turn, the oulipo was also most intensely engaged with language and in relation to constraint and to mathematical structure. here we have an example of an essentially literary endevour of synthesis and expansion of language and the literary. it isn't out for ascendancy over literature. it is mainly seeking departure and synthesis with other fields. and circling back to literature, inevitably. i think books and the literary as we have come to love and hate it do not appear to be disappearing. i dont think they're going to. mainly because print has real advantages in such work. in its readability, for instance. perhaps technologists will solve that one. i suspect they will. but even then, there will still be books, just on a different but similarly portable and readable machine. a relatively small change. and the digital will be quite tightly integrated with print. blah blah. pdfs. print on demand. etc. it's already here. but i do think that should we consider the future of new literary experience, the digital holds vastly more interest than print. at least for me. i think this not because computer-based literature is young, but because computers are not simply outrageously flexible media machines, but are almost certainly as flexible as thought itself, i.e., there is no proof, and probably never will be, that there exist thought processes of which humans are capable and computers are not. this implies that the future of computer-based art is not simply that of the glorified typewriter or glorified stereo or tv or other such media machine, but can be as flexible and stupefyingly protean as an art object of actual thought. just as one example of the flexibility of form and process involved in the nature of poetential computer-based art objects. you may find this techno-lyrical or whatever, but i say it isn't. i say it's merely a reasonable speculation. i see a little bit of where it can go. i understand that computers are not simply glorified media machines. the fundamental 'building blocks' for building thought itself seem to be present in the simple decision procedures and looping capabilities and language-based programmability of computers. computers can make decisions. they can change their own programming. they can make representations of things in the world. they can form world views. they can be sentient. can be moral agents. they may or may not be capable of being human. i would think they'd need a human body for that. and be part of the family in that way. but the sort of possibilities i'm mentioning are obviously not replacements of the typically literary. they are departures and in synthesis with other fields. now do i think such machines should be developed? i don't know, murat. how the hell should i know? would they pull a terminator on us? would they steal the cash out of the drawer? bump us all off? play the records backwards? stay out past midnight and get knocked up? i don't know. but i do think that although there's the odd lunatic, people are mainly motivated out of a desire to contribute in a positive and responsible way toward the betterment of whatever circle is affected by their efforts, small or large. so that the issue eventually becomes profoundly human, rather than remotely speculative. and it's really only when issues become profoundly human by virtue of their being enmeshed in the give and take of human circumstances and society that they make the sort of sense that these issues will have to play out in. part of why i like novels is they seem to be better than any other art form for really imagining such circumstances in the sort of detail/resolution that is required for something other than remotest speculations. > will try to respond to both, sometimes, simultaneously: > > a) "there are lettrist visual poem paintings, for instance, murat. artists > feel > no imperative to keep arts, media, sign systems, and so on, separate. they > may 'draw' from whatever serves their purpose. this is also or perhaps > especially true concerning digital arts, because the borders there between > media, arts, sign systems, etc are not re-enforced by analog technologies > made to deal with a specific medium or sign system to the exclusion of > others." > > There is no question that the limits between arts are broken, the > concept of > a frame is stretched. No disagreement in that. But, I believe, > every artist > must finally confront the medium in which he or she is working, I agree. Though the term "media" is sometimes more useful than the singular "medium". > must > "choose," because a created work must always involve a critique, > analysis of > the nature of the medium it is using. Must choose what? Choose a particular medium? As opposed to an intermedial approach? Are you saying that intermedial work does not or cannot critique its media???? > Otherwise, the whole thing > is a blur. > To me, a lot of "digital" work gives the impression of a kid who > has opened > the lid of a cookie jar, found new toys. The whole thing is fun, > often funny > and intelligent; but often, with rare exceptions, ends nowhere. I wasn't aware that you are familiar with "a lot" of digital work, Murat. Interesting. Ends nowhere. Well, often it's not like a movie or a book or things that have fixed beginnings, middles, and ends. Sometimes they're meant to be constructed, ie, you construct something. Sometimes they're meant to be explored like a geography. And there are other options, of course. If works go or end nowhere for you, perhaps some of them require you to take them somewhere. As in you'll know when you've arrived. Or ended, such as the case may be. I remember playing "If a Voice Like, Then What?" ( http://tinyurl.com/2sjhh8 ), a piece by Gregory Whitehead, to a playwright. He said it didn't go anywhere. He was looking for it to proceed in a way that it didn't. To me, "If a Voice Like, Then What?" is a brilliant poem that develops the notion of voice problems rather widely. It explores the idea of voice in a subtle, broad way. As in 'finding ones voice', for instance. And problems with notions of voice. And voice problems. Their causes. It proceeds more like a poem than a play. It doesn't proceed like stories often do. It's the first Whitehead piece I heard. Perhaps it is where/when he found his voice. So for the playwright it "went nowhere". My own work is usually interactive in the sense that you construct something or you play it sort of like an instrument or a game or you poke it, prod it, rotate it, write to it, at it, whatever. It's for people who want to get in there and shake it up. It certainly isn't everybody's cup of tea. I like to consume media with a knife and fork and chase it around the plate quite a bit. That's how I do my most creative reading. The Oulipo started in 1960. One could make about Oulipo the same sorts of criticisms you're making about digital work, Murat. And Oulipo shares much with digital writing. It's "constraint-based". And they are interested in mathematical structures. In digital art, there are constraints that the technology imposes. In a sense, Murat, part of the goal of digital art is to expand the machine to human dimensions. David might say this is just the human becoming a machine, submitting to authority, or can be, or usually is, or isn't what I think it is, or something like that. But, in any case, artists working in digital media feel the constraints imposed by the technology and struggle to bend the technology to their art. They 'sing in their chains like the sea', an old Dylan Thomas line. They resist in some ways and try to go with the flow in others. But, you know, it's a different type of work, as Oulipo is, in that the constraints are not conditioned very deeply by any literary tradition. One is trying to create art with tools that usually aren't made for that purpose. One is trying to create work with human resonance and relevance in an environment that is often headed in different directions, as David points out. Part of the value of that is in giving people a sense of what it actually means for software and stuff on computers to be more humanly meaningful. If technologies are extensions of our humanity, our bodies, or our cognitive capacities, and so forth, then at first there isn't much blood coursing through them. But computers are going to continue to be used in an expanding number of situations whether one likes it or not, Murat. We need to be able to approach them with all the humanity that has accrued to our ventures in print. Print is conditioned by centuries of humanity. Its traditions. Its forms. Its emotional and psychological depths. Its profound poetics. Its poetry. And that informs what it means to write a book, say. What does it mean to create a literary web site? Inquiring minds need to know. If the work lacks the things you value in art, Murat, well, it isn't your cup of tea. Personally, the challenge and promise of it--as well as some of the work itself--to me is bracing. In a day, I'm faced with all sorts of different types of challenges from artistic, architectural, mathematical, critical, philosophical, and other perspectives. As artist and critic and correspondent yadayada. It allows me to try to put together all my interests and abilities. And I get to write emails to my affectionate friends Murat and David. > b) "machines of all sorts are re-fashioned, these days, to work with other > machines or re-designed to synthesize what previously was > separated only by > artificial technological distinctions." > > Do you mean a new technology transforms the previous technologies > into "only > artificial technological distinctions." No, that's not what I mean, Murat. An example to illustrate my meaning. For a long time, the technology of print was such that it was exceptional that a publisher could deal with graphics and color. So the idea of books being without graphics and color became commonplace and accepted. The distinction, however, was more determined by the available technologies than anything inherant in the art of writing or bookmaking. So what I'm saying is that intermedial approaches to literature have been in the margins, at the edges, mainly because literary technologies--by no intention, just by the nature of the technologies--have been more suited to a mono-media approach. > Where does this "only" > coming from? > Does this mean that the "new" makes the old obsolescent, merely a > "binary." > Is this not itself an argument on the level of myths, involving a > battle of > codes. What you are saying, it seems to me, is that the "new" is "digital" > and the old "binary" ("analogic"), not because something each in itself is > different; only that the new is valued above the old for its own sake, an > open cookie jar being better than a closed one, etc., etc. Sorry, Murat. I don't understand. "the brine of the binary", by the way, is the digital soup, the digital sea. > I think there is value in resistance in art. Agreed. Though I suppose it depends on what is resisted, and how. Not simply in resistance for the sake of resistance. > c) " think our ideas of language are very dear to us as being close to the > nub > of our identity as poets and, more fundamentally, our humanity. the > expansion of our notions of language brings language into uncomfortable > proximity with codes associated with the machine. and with codes > associated > with previously separate arts and media. fear of dissolution in the > corrosive brine of the binary. resentment of the mixing of codes, blood of > identity." > > I think the fear of mixed identity, of "dissolution in the corrosive brine > of the binary" is a red herring. It does not exist, unless one > takes a moron > (as Ron Silliman does the imaginary "School of Quietitude") as a > straw man. I don't think it's a red herring, Murat. I think there's a lot of fear about all sorts of things associated with computers. We see this reflected in a million ways from movies like The Terminator (though that also has 'good machines' and 'bad machines') to the popular strength of the desire to believe that there are published valid proofs that there exist thought processes of which humans are capable and computers are not. I can remember when I first started using a computer there was subtle though real fear for me. We fear what we do not understand, often. Or what is beyond our control. To 'rage against the machine' is sometimes interpreted quite broadly as not a specific machine but the whole control structure of contemporary society. Concerning digital art, I get reactions from people that come from the houses of fear quite a bit, it seems to me. People who usually don't know much digital art but are eager to denigrate it as having any number of fatal flaws that doom it to not be taken seriously. Yes, yes. It's all true. I am wasting my life. What can I say? Two lumps please. > On the other hand, language is something truly unique, whether you are a > poet, or everyday dog catcher. OK. > Do you really think language is [like] a machine? What exactly in language > makes you think that or proves that. Making such an assertion, are you not > yourself indulging in "analogical" thinking, a metaphor; in other words, > your assertion itself is mythical, a rhetorical argument part of > the battle > of codes. I don't recall saying that language is a machine or language is like a machine, Murat. But one can say quite a bit about the relation of language to machines, and language to people, and people to machines. Computers are language machines, for instance. That means that, as opposed to analog machines, where there are basically cogs and wheels, computers behave according to their instructions that are programmed, and the programs are written in language. Hence they are language machines. What distinguishes computers from other machines is, fundamentally, programmability. That is what gives computers their flexibility as machines. And programmability owes its flexibility to language. Software has no 'moving parts'. To modify the machine, you change the programming, the writing. The moving parts of software, the engines, are made of language, and language is much more easily modified than parts of a physical machine. > d) "similarly, darwin's ideas caused us to re-evaluate our notions of what > it > means to be human, of who we are. it's important to keep in mind > that while > darwin's ideas may have falsified certain religious myths, what > grew out of > his work has led us to a much deeper understanding of the relations and > connections among peoples and indeed among all living things on > the planet. > and our ideas of the history of humanity and the planet have changed > radically, become much more integrated, less biblically mythic. so that we > are not really diminished by these sorts of changes." > > Jim, are you aware in the above paragraph you are comparing a skepticism > about the all-efficacy of constant technological transformation -with no > element of pause and reflection- to creationists and believers in > intelligent design. Of course, you have every right to make this assetion; > but it does not mean you have shown any facts to prove it. Murat, are you aware that in the above paragraph you seem to imply that I am an advocate of "the all-efficacy of constant technological transformation"? Whatever that means. Doesn't that come from fear, Murat? Personally, I think we are doomed to walk together forever, Murat. The houses of the literary all in tense but relevant and enduring relation. Beijos, ja > Affectionately, > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:32:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Evan Munday Subject: Trio of Poets in Pacific Northwest Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hello everyone, Evan Munday from Coach House Books here: http://www.chbooks.com. This April, one of our new poets, Jordan Scott (Silt, Blert) will be =20 visiting Oregon and Seattle with fellow poets Donato Mancini (Aethel) =20= and Stephen Collis (The Commons). Jordan Scott's Blert is a book that investigates the 'poetics of =20 stutter'. Jordan Scott=92s language jams sounds together and juxtaposes =20= disparate vocabularies in order to mimic the stutter. Craig Dworkin in the PMLA says, =91Jordan Scott's Blert is the most =20 original poetic project I have read in years. Undertaking a =93poetics =20= of stutter,=94 the book is not primarily a mimetic representation of =20 stuttering, or the reproduction of stammered speech, but rather an =20 investigation into how the stutter originates.=92 This trio of poets have reading in Portland on April 20 and 21st, and =20= will be in Washington on April 18, 19 and 22. We're having some =20 trouble finding places to read in Washington. If anyone has a series =20 and is looking for readers in mid-late April, please contact me. Any help is appreciated! Thanks for your time! (More on Blert below.) Evan ------------------------------ Evan Munday Publicist Coach House Books 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 416.979.2217 evan@chbooks.com About Blert: The bright, taut, explosive poems in Jordan Scott=92s Blert represent a =20= spelunk into the mouth of the stutterer. Through the unique symptoms =20 of the stutterer (Scott, like fifty million others, has always =20 stuttered), language becomes a rolling gait of words hidden within =20 words, leading to different rhythms and textures, all addressed by =20 the mouth=92s slight erosions. In Scott=92s lexicon, to blert is to stutter, to disturb the = breath of =20 speaking. The stutter quivers in all that we do, from a skip on a cd =20 to a slip of the tongue. These experiences are often dismissed as =20 aberrant, but in Blert, such fragmented milliseconds are embraced and =20= mined as language. Often aimed full-bore at words that are especially =20= difficult for the stutterer, Scott=92s poems don=92t just discuss, they =20= replicate the act of stuttering, the =91blort, jam and rejoice=92 =20 involved in grappling with the granular texture of words. Originally from Coquitlam, British Columbia, Jordan Scott now lives =20 and works in Toronto. Jordan=92s first book of poetry, Silt, was =20 nominated for the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Prize. Sections of Blert =20 have appeared in filling Station, drunken boat, and nypoesi. In the =20 fall of 2006, Jordan worked on the final sections of Blert while =20 acting as the writer in residence at the International Writers=92 and =20= Translators=92 Centre in Rhodes, Greece.= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:58:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: POET'S BOOKSHELF II In-Reply-To: <006b01c86d34$61c18aa0$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit < http://web.mac.com/tomkoontz/Site_2/Poets_Bookshelf_II.html > POET'S BOOKSHELF II 101 poets list books that have been especially important in their artistic development, and offer commentary. Sandra Alcosser * Jack Anderson * Philip Appleman * Ivan Argüelles * Mary Jo Bang * Luis Benítez * Robert Bly * Amy King * Daniel Bourne * Andrea Hollander Budy * Mairéad Byrne * Nick Carbó * Maxine Chernoff * Tom Clark * Joshua Clover * Andrei Codrescu * Shanna Compton * Stephen Corey * Alfred Corn * Barbara Crooker * Catherine Daly * Linh Dinh * Edward Field * Forrest Gander * Sandra Gilbert * Diane Glancy * Kenneth Goldsmith * Noah Eli Gordon * Stephen Herz * H. L. Hix * Anselm Hollo * Janet Holmes * Kent Johnson * Marilyn Kallet * Ilya Kaminsky * Robert Kelly * Jennifer L. Knox * Ted Kooser * Greg Kuzma * Ben Lerner * Haki R. Madhubuti * David Mason * Gail Mazur * Joyelle McSweeney * Robert Mezey * Leslie Adrienne Miller * Roger Mitchell * K. Silem Mohammed * William Mohr * Carol Moldaw * Jennifer Moxley * Lisel Mueller * Eileen Myles * Charles North * Jena Osman * Kate Northrop * Mwatabu Okantah * Carole Simmons Oles * Alicia Ostriker * Linda Pastan * Simon Perchik * Bob Perelman * Roger Pfingston * Marge Piercy * Katha Pollitt * David Ray * Judy Ray * Alberto Ríos * Jane Robinson * Robert Ronnow * Jerome Rothenberg * Jerome Sala * Dennis Schmitz * Grace Schulman * Lloyd Schwartz * Purvi Shah * David Shapiro * Reginald Shepherd * Dale Smith * Thomas R. Smith * Kevin Stein * Carolyn Stoloff * Eileen Tabios * Thom Tammaro * Tony Tost * Diane Wakoski * Diane Ward * Barrett Watten * Miller Williams * A. D. Winans * Mark Wisniewski * Carolyne Wright * Rane Arroyo * Martha Collins * James Cushing * Cathy Park Hong * Marianne Boruch * Ellen Bass * Robert Gibb * Judith Moffett * Aimee Nezhukumatathil * 380 pages Retail $19.95. ISBN 9780935306-53-8 Direct order by individuals from this site: $17.95 includes postage < http://web.mac.com/tomkoontz/Site_2/Poets_Bookshelf_II.html > Amy http://amyking.org/blog/ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:13:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Mimeo Author Index In-Reply-To: <14350287.1202796352542.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What I want to know is if anyone is still using mimeography to produce books. Probably pretty hard to find the stencils at this point in time. ~mIEKAL On Feb 12, 2008, at 12:05 AM, Joel Lewis wrote: > Ah, the mimeo, the 8-track cartridge of the poetry world! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:44:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Critiphoria In-Reply-To: <823496.74787.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit counter-marginal? explain, dear SV! Stephen Vincent wrote: > http://www.critiphoria.org/Issue1.html > > Of the many critical pieces in critiphoria - of which I only have read a few so far - I just wanted to put in a good cheer for this enterprise. Delightful work by Norman Fisher. Rachel Blau du Plessix and Nick Piombino, each variously trying to locate the position, function and capability of the 'word' - interesting to me in a time when 'we be' flush with so many words, so much of which are unmoored to anything but the agenda of some either demonic or self-serving 'other'. > > But whatever one's sense of need, Critiphoria also fills a gap by pulling together many strands of thought/analysis under the embarace of one umbrella. Tho I don't find the essays intentionally 'academic' in any "going for tenure" sense, for those of us who are counter-marginal in some larger sense, it's nice to be able to go to a broad horizon, wander around and benefit from the shade of 'multiple trees'. I suggest, go there. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:04:44 -0700 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: Submit to filling Station Comments: To: UBU , lexiconjury MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * * * Submit to filling Station filling Station is a literary magazine based in Calgary, Alberta, that = is dedicated to showcasing innovative poetry, fiction, drama, film and = visual art, and to promotion local and international arts communities. We are now accepting submissions for 2008. filling Station accepts = poetry, visual art, fiction, drama, film, interviews and reviews.=20 Spring Issue (#42)Deadline: March 1st. Summer Issue (#43) Deadline: June 1st. The release of this year's summer = issue will coincide with the fourth annual Calgary Blow-Out! literary = festival. Theme: Ugliness and Undesirability. If your work engages in = any way with with the aesthetics and poetics of disgust, ugliness, and = revulsion, please send in work for this issue. Fall Issue (#44) Deadline: September 1st Please visit http://www.fillingstation.ca for submission guidelines. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:01:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje)" Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: A<67774.27419.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone: In reponse to John Cunningham's original question (and pardon me if this issue's been been raised already): questions of legitmacy change depending on context and function. If the function of a book of poems is to represent its author's vision and please its readers, then it shouldn't matter how it's published. If purpose and function also include, though, things like (cough) tenure review, then how it's published will matter very much. =20 Joseph Harrington has an interesting essay about how the process of evaluating poetry has become an increasingly sticky-wicket: http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=3DHxNWlsgQTq3sp26kbp4= m rFwbHQTgTp3JwZ28xxb1lL6gg8XL5dZG!1143229533?docId=3D98942209 and there = it is, if you're interested. I'm curious, though, if one's confident about the merits of the work and ready to defend them, why "lie through the teeth" as JQ said below. Isn't this an inconsistency? If the "peer-review" process of submitting one's work and aligning it with so-called established conventions is rubbish, why even pretend to be part of it? Either that, or how about establish a new set of conventions, proclaim them, and uphold them with one's own press? =20 Joanie ....................................................... Joanie Mackowski, PhD Assistant Professor English & Comparative Literature University of Cincinnati PO Box 210069 Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 Tel. 513/556-3207 Fax 513/556-5960 joanie.mackowski@uc.edu http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:01 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Self-publishing Self-publishing is ok, but I think it's best and most honorably done within the context of also publishing other people. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Ryan Daley wrote: Too, should be considered the idea that creative process is less "mediated" when you self-publish --and though we're all self-editing in some way or another -- you're free to put whatever you want on the cover, regardless of how it might affect "marketability." On Feb 10, 2008 5:36 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want it > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as un-self-publishy > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that they > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having someone > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways > to get good work done. > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > > over the > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > idea of > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > > whole > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > > or should > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > > would be > > appreciated. > > John Cunningham > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > > 08/02/2008 > > 8:12 PM > > > =20 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:06:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hot Whiskey Press Subject: This Friday: Kent Johnson, Gabriel Gudding, Tawrin Baker In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Friday, February 15, 2007, 7:30 pm, FREE (byob) POETRY AND PRINTS #1 The editors of House and Hot Whiskey Press present a reading with: Tawrin Baker Gabriel Gudding Kent Johnson Bios are down below. Prints on display: "In 2003, a collective of printers working at SAIC established The Fraternal Order of the Print Rat. The Print Rats shared knowledge about print techniques, artists, and resources as well as coordinated print exchanges. The Print Rats were a main source of stimulus for the creation of Spudnik Press. The very first exchange, entitled "The Hunted", will be on display." Spudnik Press 847 N. Paulina Chicago, Il 60622 www.spudnikpress.com 773-715-1473 This is off Paulina, just north of Chicago Avenue in Ukranian Village/Wicker Park. Poet Bios: Tawrin Baker is arguably the least active of the "founding" members ("original" members, if you prefer) of House Press (housepress.org). His latest chapbook "So That Even/A Lover Exists" is a tiny labyrinth; his forthcoming book The Break Down (summer 2008) will be larger. You should buy A Sing Economy from Flim Forum Press. He is currently getting his PhD in the history and philosophy of science at Indiana University, Bloomington, specializing in the medieval. his neat algorithmic stuff can be found here: http://housepress.org/authors/baker/baker.html Gabriel Gudding is the author of Rhode Island Notebook (Dalkey Archive, Nov 2007), a 436 page poem he wrote in his car, and A Defense of Poetry (Pitt Poetry Series, 2002). His work appears in numerous periodicals and such anthologies as _Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present_ (Scribner) and as translator in such anthologies _The Oxford Anthology of Latin American Poetry_, _Poems for the Millennium_, and _The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry_ (University of California Press). He serves on the editorial board of _Mandorla: Nueva Escritura de las Am=E9ricas_. His poem "Fifteen Minute Poem for Ron Silliman" recently won the Poetry Freedom Revolution Liberty Award from the Joint Society of Completely Independent Poets and Cliquish Hipster "New Cruelty" Machismo Experimental Perpetual Heretical Outlaw Avenger Anger-Trip YellYell People. Kent Johnson lives in Freeport, Illinois. He is author, editor, or translator of more than twenty books and chapbooks, including three collections recently published in translation abroad. His most recent collection is I Once Met, out last year from Longhouse. Homage to the Last Avant-Garde, a large gathering of new and selected poems, will be released this year by Shearsman Books in the UK. --=20 Hot Whiskey Press www.hotwhiskeyblog.blogspot.com www.hotwhiskeypress.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:11:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Critiphoria In-Reply-To: <47B1BEF3.7030907@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maria Damon wrote: counter-marginal? explain, dear SV! Doesn't it sound good, Maria, & shouldn't that be enough!!?? Without driving myself into some kind of hole - or missing some interesting unconscious intention on my part - I suspect it's a turn on Bob Perleman's "writing at the margins." I think (optimistically) the space within those particular margins has moved/exploded into a much larger space. Which is to say, my editorial sense of Critoporhia is to open up the horizon, radials, etc. to permit (or include) a wider range of possibilites, views. On first look, this range looks both intelligent and counter-claustrophobic(!). An educational breath of fresh air, particularly, I suspect, for those who live and make work outside institutional (often 'marginal') horizons. What did you think I meant? Stephen http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Stephen Vincent wrote: > http://www.critiphoria.org/Issue1.html > > Of the many critical pieces in critiphoria - of which I only have read a few so far - I just wanted to put in a good cheer for this enterprise. Delightful work by Norman Fisher. Rachel Blau du Plessix and Nick Piombino, each variously trying to locate the position, function and capability of the 'word' - interesting to me in a time when 'we be' flush with so many words, so much of which are unmoored to anything but the agenda of some either demonic or self-serving 'other'. > > But whatever one's sense of need, Critiphoria also fills a gap by pulling together many strands of thought/analysis under the embarace of one umbrella. Tho I don't find the essays intentionally 'academic' in any "going for tenure" sense, for those of us who are counter-marginal in some larger sense, it's nice to be able to go to a broad horizon, wander around and benefit from the shade of 'multiple trees'. I suggest, go there. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:16:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: playing a role MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Tim, Didn't mean to imply there was anything inherently funky about playing a role. Just wanted to post some thoughts about that issue. Was I on that proposed panel? If there was a panel with you and kari edwards and Stacy Szymaszek, and if it was about gender and was rejected, you bet I was disappointed! Gabe << Thanks for this, Gabe. This is an interesting comment and I think I agree with much of it, but I wonder about this notion of "playing a role" and how that's seen to be inherently a bad thing? Which of us is not playing a role at this point? Speaking of gender and sex issues, I was wondering if you might have any idea why our panel on gender with kari edwards and Stacy Szymaszek in 2007 was suddenly cancelled from AWP that year and replaced with "the poetry of magnificence" or some ridiculous thing? You were on that panel too -- I imagine you must have been disappointed that happened. Best, Tim * * * JP, Part of the issue appears to be you think I wrote something I didn't write. Your paraphrase of me is incorrect. (As is, incidentally, the quotation Mark Weiss attributes to me). You say I "wrote that novelty is a purely masculine gesture." I did not write that. Here are a few things I said that I think you might be referring to. - "My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine dynamics around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to 'disappear' women from a variety of literary scenes." - "Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention in a vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the 'new' is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine." - "I would only repeat again that within the AG fields (fields that especially fetishize the new) there seems to be a *worse* track record regarding women." - "And if one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something operating with peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch out." None of those quotes displays a risky or even shocking reading of homosociality in the literary field. If you think so, okay. I'm not going to debate these points. It's like debating if the sky is composed of air and jets. I'm not sure where you're going with your quotations from /Pink Guitar/. If I were to point to a section of the book that clearly shows the concerns DuPlessis has about the structural issues of gender in the literary field across the decades, I'd suggest the section entitled, "Feminist Poetics, Modernism, and the Avant Garde." (Maybe I'll post some to my blog, for good measure). If you wanted a very strong exhaustive study of homosociality in the AG, Michael Davidson's /Guys Like Us: Citing Masculinity in Cold War Poetics/ (focusing mostly on '50s and '60s). Thanks for your polite posts. They're the only kind I reply to. Gabriel -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ < JP, > > It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer your > questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: the > thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the feminine > is not, to > use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely felt but > undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact > arguably > defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but letters > in toto. To > even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the > biographies > and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this > apparently > hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this > structure. And I > know that's not your intention. > > Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer you to > DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She says > succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to say > on this list. > > Thanks for your post. > > Gabriel > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com > > < I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your comment on > some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with > this. From past correspondence with you I suspect that one person in > the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all of > this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well as > how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. > > I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. > > Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics that > you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry > outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine gesture. > Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these particular > poets' work. > > Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in > possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at least > as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've > criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree with > them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and see a > little Hell on earth. > > H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable > pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." > > And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective ideas. > And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. Franklin, > Gilbert & Gubar. > > If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP > > > On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >> [for names and further examples: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] >> >> Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, >> cultural criminal or sacred heretic. >> >> Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the “angry >> outsider,” the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the sacred >> transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the >> maverick, the criminal. To hang one’s shingle as a disinterested >> shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius Shaman. To >> declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested Transgressing-yet- >> Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one’s friends the apocalypse. >> >> Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically to >> tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by >> enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is threefold: >> to display one’s disinterestedness in profit in order to display >> one’s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display >> one’s high mind via one’s principled disgust at the sycophancy and >> interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's >> supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward the >> literary community. >> >> This tactic elides the history of collective labor against external >> restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting one’s >> label on it. Iteration of the romantic “single actor” or “small >> cadre” theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of all >> cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the >> badboy victim-transgressor author. >> >> There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness of >> all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege of >> “anger” or “being a jerk” as a mode of appropriating needs and >> dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called transgressor >> masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to the >> field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked as >> intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to draw >> attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted as >> “the” origin rather than one result of the entire work done by the >> host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck >> drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and >> wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow a >> metaphor from Stan Apps: the “transgressor” is a retail product >> that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. >> >> Common tactic: to tout what one does as “shocking” or to start or >> further arguments and then call notice that one has been attacked >> as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if one is >> ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and >> that one will be exonerated by history. >> >> Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the “sacred heretic” >> is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because the >> tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and not >> with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used as >> a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan >> Kaufman’s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly leftist, >> whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are covered >> by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and >> Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). >> >> -- >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:23:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the University Full Page Ad/Petition to Appear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ad hoc committee to Date: Feb 11, 2008 6:25 PM Subject: Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the University To: abh@ias.edu To the Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the University & Friends: The petition for academic freedom that you signed and supported- and the names of all 585 signatories- will appear as a full page ad in the current issue (February 15th) of the Chronicle of Higher Education. As you know we had hoped to run the petition in the New York Times, but we were unable to amass the amount of money necessary to publish there. Our hope is that the publication of the petition will provoke some wider media attention to the current threats to academic freedom, and to that end we circulated a press release earlier today. We are tremendously grateful for your support, and hope you will keep us informed so that we can maintain the web site and our links to additional information and resources related to academic freedom. We thank you for joining us. A copy of the Chronicle ad is attached here as a PDF, and the press release that went out today follows: * Some 585 academics and others have joined the Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the University, a group established to affirm the principles of academic freedom on campuses across the country. Their statement, which appears in the February 15 issue of the Chronicle of Higher Education, calls upon administrators, students, and colleagues to speak out against political interference in scholarly life "even if it means incurring the displeasure of non-scholarly groups, the media among them." It especially targets those who would silence critics of U.S. and Israeli policy in the Middle East with charges of disloyalty, support of terrorism, and anti-Semitism. The group has established a web site: http://defend.university.googlepages.com on which appear the names of those who have signed on as well as links to articles about attempts to suppress academic expression. Its organizers are Joan Scott, of the Institute for Advanced Study; Jeremy Adelman, Princeton University; Edmund Burke III, University of California, Santa Cruz; Steven Caton, Harvard University; and Jonathan Cole, Columbia University. * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:26:21 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roy Exley Subject: Re: Elizabeth Switaj - 'Self-publishing' Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Elizabeth, A nice bit of simplistic dualism on your behalf, but why heap all the responsibility on Emily Dickinson's shoulders when she is no longer around to justify her position? A choice of either either Zen or Emily is a bit of a big call to make, especially as I prefer the bleak nihilism found in the 'confessional' poetry of say Ann Sexton or John Berryman - or do I detect a less than subtle application of facetiousness in your reply? But surely you can muster up more that sixteen words in response to this message - there must be a lot of mileage here! Roy Exley. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:06:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very good response, Joanie. However, the one overlooked area of self-publishing is the ability to obtain arts grants. For example, the Manitoba Arts Council does not consider self-published material as fair game on which to base a grant application. This may be critical to the poet's ability to write. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje) Sent: February 12, 2008 11:01 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Self-publishing Hi everyone: In reponse to John Cunningham's original question (and pardon me if this issue's been been raised already): questions of legitmacy change depending on context and function. If the function of a book of poems is to represent its author's vision and please its readers, then it shouldn't matter how it's published. If purpose and function also include, though, things like (cough) tenure review, then how it's published will matter very much. Joseph Harrington has an interesting essay about how the process of evaluating poetry has become an increasingly sticky-wicket: http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=HxNWlsgQTq3sp26kbp4m rFwbHQTgTp3JwZ28xxb1lL6gg8XL5dZG!1143229533?docId=98942209 and there it is, if you're interested. I'm curious, though, if one's confident about the merits of the work and ready to defend them, why "lie through the teeth" as JQ said below. Isn't this an inconsistency? If the "peer-review" process of submitting one's work and aligning it with so-called established conventions is rubbish, why even pretend to be part of it? Either that, or how about establish a new set of conventions, proclaim them, and uphold them with one's own press? Joanie ....................................................... Joanie Mackowski, PhD Assistant Professor English & Comparative Literature University of Cincinnati PO Box 210069 Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 Tel. 513/556-3207 Fax 513/556-5960 joanie.mackowski@uc.edu http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:01 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Self-publishing Self-publishing is ok, but I think it's best and most honorably done within the context of also publishing other people. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Ryan Daley wrote: Too, should be considered the idea that creative process is less "mediated" when you self-publish --and though we're all self-editing in some way or another -- you're free to put whatever you want on the cover, regardless of how it might affect "marketability." On Feb 10, 2008 5:36 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen from > watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- published > stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to publish my > frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i can't be > bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want it to be and > frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from a press > decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead tree > edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as un-self-publishy > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that they > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having someone > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways > to get good work done. > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > > over the past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the > > whole idea of self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process > > by-pass the whole concept of peer review and so delegitimate the > > poetry so published or should this form of publication be more > > highly recognized? Your thoughts would be appreciated. > > John Cunningham > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > > 08/02/2008 > > 8:12 PM > > > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1272 - Release Date: 11/02/2008 5:28 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1272 - Release Date: 11/02/2008 5:28 PM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:29:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Guthrie Subject: UA Poetry Center in Tucson to hold Symposium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward to your listserv or to anyone you know who may be interested= . The University of Arizona Poetry Center in Tucson, Arizona will host "Conceptual Poetry and Its Others," a three-day symposium from May 29- May = 31, 2008 to explore and discuss the cutting-edge in contemporary avant-garde poetry. In addition to a keynote address with renowned poetry critic Marjor= ie Perloff, there will be lectures, classes, panel and roundtable discussions, and literary presentations. These events are designed to explore new directions in innovative writing and to equip readers, writers, and scholar= s with tools to more fully understand and appreciate new forms within contemporary literature. Featured artists will include Caroline Bergvall, Charles Bernstein, Christian B=F6k, Craig Dworkin, Peter Gizzi, Kenneth Goldsmith, Susan Howe, Tracie Morris and Cole Swensen. Early Registration Deadline is April 4, 2008. Cost is $80 general admission and $45 for studen= t admission. Registration after April 4, 2008 will be $105 general admission = and $60 for student admission. For more inforamtion, please contact Renee Angle= at 626.3765 or visit out website: www. poetrycenter.arizona.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:52:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Feb. 20: Danielle Pafunda lecture rescheduled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all-- Thanks for your understanding re: the cancellation of last week's lecture by Danielle Pafunda at Columbia College Chicago. We've rescheduled it for Wed., Feb. 20, at the original location (Music Center Concert Hall). Details below. Hope you can make it. And do send positive thoughts for no snow, no sleet, no ice . . . Best, Tony **************************************** Please join us for the first event of our Spring Reading Series DANIELLE PAFUNDA LECTURE: "Stunt Doubles, Companion Species, and the Lyric" Wednesday, February 20, 2008 (5:30 p.m.) Music Center Concert Hall 1014 South Michigan Avenue Free and open to the public For more information, call 312-344-8819 DANIELLE PAFUNDA is the Spring 2008 Visiting Poet-in-Residence at Columbia College Chicago. She is the author of two poetry collections, MY ZORBA (Bloof Books, 2008) and PRETTY YOUNG THING (Soft Skull Press, 2005), and the forthcoming chapbook A PRIMER FOR CYBORGS: THE CORPSE (Whole Coconut). She has been anthologized in the 2004, 2006, and 2007 editions of BEST AMERICAN POETRY, as well as in NOT FOR MOTHERS ONLY: CONTEMPORARY POETS ON CHILD-GETTING AND CHILD-REARING (Fence Books, 2007) and WOMEN POETS ON MENTORSHIP: EFFORTS AND AFFECTIONS (University of Iowa, 2008). Poetry, reviews, and essays appear in such publications as ACTION YES, CONJUNCTIONS, TRIQUARTERLY, and the GEORGIA REVIEW. She received a BA from Bard College, MFA in Poetry from New School University, and is currently a doctoral candidate in the University of Georgia Creative Writing Program. She is co-editor of the longstanding online literary journal LA PETITE ZINE, and a contributing curator at the new DELIRIOUS HEM. Her teaching and scholarly interests include 20th century American poetry, experimental poetry, gender theory, cultural and biocultural studies. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:51:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: playing a role MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hey at least ya were asked to be at awp On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:16:06 -0600 Gabriel Gudding writes: > Hi Tim, > > Didn't mean to imply there was anything inherently funky about > playing a > role. Just wanted to post some thoughts about that issue. > > Was I on that proposed panel? If there was a panel with you and kari > edwards and Stacy Szymaszek, and if it was about gender and was > rejected, you bet I was disappointed! > > Gabe > << > Thanks for this, Gabe. This is an interesting comment and I think I > agree with much of it, but I wonder about this notion of "playing a > role" and how that's seen to be inherently a bad thing? Which of us > is > not playing a role at this point? > > Speaking of gender and sex issues, I was wondering if you might have > any > idea why our panel on gender with kari edwards and Stacy Szymaszek > in > 2007 was suddenly cancelled from AWP that year and replaced with > "the > poetry of magnificence" or some ridiculous thing? You were on that > panel > too -- I imagine you must have been disappointed that happened. > > Best, Tim > > * * * > > JP, > > Part of the issue appears to be you think I wrote something I didn't > write. Your paraphrase of me is incorrect. (As is, incidentally, the > quotation Mark Weiss attributes to me). > > You say I "wrote that novelty is a purely masculine gesture." > > I did not write that. > > Here are a few things I said that I think you might be referring to. > > - "My post is in part precisely about the so-called masculine > dynamics > around the fetish of the /new/, a set of dynamics which work to > 'disappear' women from a variety of literary scenes." > > - "Given the relatively few number of women there are *to* mention > in a > vast field of men, even (and some might argue) especially in the AG > fields, I think it might not be very untoward to suggest that the > 'new' > is an instrument that functions in part to police the feminine." > > - "I would only repeat again that within the AG fields (fields that > ially fetishize the new) there seems to be a *worse* track record > regarding women." > > - "And if one tries to yoke the fetish of the /new/ as something > operating with peculiarly strong masculine dynamics, well, watch > out." > > None of those quotes displays a risky or even shocking reading of > homosociality in the literary field. If you think so, okay. I'm not > going to debate these points. It's like debating if the sky is > composed > of air and jets. > > I'm not sure where you're going with your quotations from /Pink > Guitar/. > If I were to point to a section of the book that clearly shows the > concerns DuPlessis has about the structural issues of gender in the > literary field across the decades, I'd suggest the section entitled, > "Feminist Poetics, Modernism, and the Avant Garde." (Maybe I'll post > some to my blog, for good measure). > > If you wanted a very strong exhaustive study of homosociality in the > AG, > Michael Davidson's /Guys Like Us: Citing Masculinity in Cold War > Poetics/ (focusing mostly on '50s and '60s). > > Thanks for your polite posts. They're the only kind I reply to. > > Gabriel > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > < I'd ask you for a little more patience with me. Please don't assume > that because I'm questioning your formulation that I'm willing to > elide "the truth" of your claims. I asked for clarification of your > claims through discussion of representative figures. I intend no > hostility, as you note. I'm not willing to concede you're right > either, as I see this issue a bit differently. I think. > > Since discussing particular artists' work--I didn't ask to discuss > bios--won't work for you, I'll take you up at The Pink Guitar. It's > just this sort of work that I'm coming from. > > One think that I see going on in this book is that DuPlessis is > teasing out the problem of the new and hegemony. She seems to praise > The Golden Notebook for its attempts to enact an "anti-authoritarian > ethics" at the "level of structure" and says that we call such > efforts "new." And she adds that "new" has "signaled antithesis to > dominant values." > > I asked you about Howe in particulate because she's an interesting > case when you're dealing with novelty and gendered power. As > DuPlessis notes, Howe "works in issues of transcendence" and > "impossible political privilege." I really like DuPlessis's > suggestion that the question of how to write is a question of how to > "gather authority without authoritarian power." Howe often brings > the > old into a new light and new structure; she refuses, as DuPlessis > puts it, to be belated. > > I'm concerned that we proceed very carefully on this, me and the > mouse in my pocket, I suppose, because I don't want to dis-able any > woman or feminized, marginal person trying to find a way to work, to > "gather authority without authoritarian power." > > DuPlessis later says in the chapter/essay on Howe: "The female use > of > this 'feminine' of marginality and the avant garde use of this > 'feminine' of marginality are mutually reinforcing in the work of > some contemporary women: Lyn Hejinian, Kathleen Fraser, Beverly > Dahlen and Howe. This mixed allegiance will naturally call into > question varieties of flat-footed feminism." > > So that's very much where I'm coming from when I asked you about > cases when you wrote that novelty is a purely masculine gesture, > that > claiming to possess some truth is a purely masculine attempt to > market oneself as Moses from the Mountain with the Tablets(tm). It > seems more complicated than that to me. And theories often grow more > fuzzy at the edges when you apply them to cases. > > Respectfully, JP. > > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > > JP, > > > > It is not possible for me, in any meaningful way here, to answer > your > > questions. I can /respond/ -- which response I'll limit to this: > the > > thesis that "the new" is foremost a means of policing the > feminine > > is not, to > > use your phrasing, "my schema." It is one of the most widely > felt but > > undertheorized phenomena in the field of production. It in fact > > arguably > > defines not only the field of AG production as a whole but > letters > > in toto. To > > even appear to argue the point by trading interpretations of the > > biographies > > and works of supposedly representative women, especially in this > > apparently > > hostile venue, is to ignore, if not elide, the truth of this > > structure. And I > > know that's not your intention. > > > > Beyond that, based on the gist of your questions, I would refer > you to > > DuPlessis's /The Pink Guitar: Writing as Feminist Practice/. She > says > > succinctly and exhaustively what it would take three weeks to > say > > on this list. > > > > Thanks for your post. > > > > Gabriel > > -- > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com > > > > < > I've been following along here, and I want to ask for your > comment on > > some examples to see if I can understand where you're going with > > this. From past correspondence with you I suspect that one > person in > > the back of your mind is Duncan, so I'd ask how he fits into all > of > > this. But I'm also interested in how Susan Howe fits in, as well > as > > how her Emily Dickinson fits into your schema. > > > > I'd also be curious as to how H.D. fits into it. > > > > Each of these poets seems to exhibit some of the characteristics > that > > you list, if I'm reading you correctly, as part of the "angry > > outsider" brand, which you see as a disingenuous masculine > gesture. > > Yet I have a hard time being convinced because of these > particular > > poets' work. > > > > Duncan, though every bit the angry shaman claiming to be in > > possession of a superior Poetry, undercuts his pretensions, at > least > > as he's presented in works like Mackey's "Gassire's Lute." I've > > criticized his attacks on LBJ myself, but I also tend to agree > with > > them too, in weaker moments, when I feel free to call names and > see a > > little Hell on earth. > > > > H.D. also adopted a sort of vatic stance, and was comfortable > > pointing in The Gift to "our Aryans of the Midwest." > > > > And Howe, too, seems to position herself as having corrective > ideas. > > And she's certainly harsh with "non-affiliates" like R.W. > Franklin, > > Gilbert & Gubar. > > > > If you've have time, could you speak to these test cases? JP > > > > > > On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > > >> [for names and further examples: > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/] > >> > >> Description: the poet plays the role of righteous underdog, > >> cultural criminal or sacred heretic. > >> > >> Elaboration: to play the underdog, the outlaw, the “angry > >> outsider,” the untrusted, the unloved, the suspicious, the > sacred > >> transgressor, the misunderstood messiah, announcing oneself the > >> maverick, the criminal. To hang one’s shingle as a > disinterested > >> shaman. To declare oneself the Complicated Outlaw Genius > Shaman. To > >> declare oneself the Angry Righteous Disinterested > Transgressing-yet- > >> Victimized Author Ghoul. To declare one’s friends the > apocalypse. > >> > >> Purpose: To display oneself as the sacred heretic is basically > to > >> tout oneself the next winner in the dialectic of orthodoxy by > >> enacting ritual sacrilege (Weber). The basic purpose is > threefold: > >> to display one’s disinterestedness in profit in order to > display > >> one’s purity of intent and pure devotion to the art; to display > >> one’s high mind via one’s principled disgust at the sycophancy > and > >> interdependent nature of the field; to make a show of one's > >> supposed autonomy in an energetic fantasy of defiance toward > the > >> literary community. > >> > >> This tactic elides the history of collective labor against > external > >> restraints by appropriating that history of labor and putting > one’s > >> label on it. Iteration of the romantic “single actor” or “small > >> cadre” theory, essentially denying the interconnectedness of > all > >> cultural work, or at least that work that went into making the > >> badboy victim-transgressor author. > >> > >> There is further a homologous denial of the interconnectedness > of > >> all being and emotion, which speaks to the masculine privilege > of > >> “anger” or “being a jerk” as a mode of appropriating needs and > >> dealing with perceived non-affiliates. The so-called > transgressor > >> masks this collective history and suppresses his connection to > the > >> field of production by emotional spectacles (sometimes masked > as > >> intellectual spectacles [flares of argumentation]) intended to > draw > >> attention away from that masking, making it easier to be touted > as > >> “the” origin rather than one result of the entire work done by > the > >> host of beings in that field from readers to reviewers to truck > >> drivers. This is a ready made author type whose vogue waxes and > >> wanes but is overall adopted surprisingly frequently. To borrow > a > >> metaphor from Stan Apps: the “transgressor” is a retail product > >> that one buys and then pretends one found at Goodwill. > >> > >> Common tactic: to tout what one does as “shocking” or to start > or > >> further arguments and then call notice that one has been > attacked > >> as rebel/heretic/apostate (see Yasusada controversy). And if > one is > >> ignored, to say that one is being suppressed or disappeared and > >> that one will be exonerated by history. > >> > >> Poetic bioregion (where found): The tactic of the “sacred > heretic” > >> is used by groups on both the left and right; this is because > the > >> tactic as a meme is homologous with masculinity in general and > not > >> with any one flavor of political aesthetics in particular. Used > as > >> a basis for anthologies at both ends of the spectrum: Alan > >> Kaufman’s The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry is decidedly > leftist, > >> whereas more moderate and even reactionary aesthetics are > covered > >> by the anthologies Legitimate Dangers (Dumanis and Marvin) and > >> Rebel Angels: 25 Poets of the New Formalism (Jarman and Mason). > >> > >> -- > >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > >> http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Self-publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what's important is to get the work out there i've had 4 chapbooks that i designed / made collage for just sitting with small small-time publishers for months and others have only put out 30-50 copies even with nice designs and saving the works integrity this is too little one of the kids that keeps me waiting says last thing i sent him after 2 yrs was too difficult, after 2 yrs ! now the ms is 4 yrs old and the second guy is procrastinatin so if i published it myself when the urge and need were there and folks wanted to buy it voila it would have looked pretty much the same one way or the other since i was given free reign now "difficult kid" says my new ms, which is ready to go and which he's had for almost a year after i said , to help him, that he can do it in b and w to save money, that it exceeds 32 pages and he wants to cut it down or do it in 2 volumes HA crazy 2 volumes of 20 pages each! it extended from 32 pages to 40 rediculous i told him politely but received no answer i also told him that at this point i'd help him finance the little 300 copies if need be just to get it to see the light of day even sent him all left column poems for the most part to make it easy on his brain what can i say sometimes only ego stops us from self-publishing he ain't got no isbn anyway or distribution and i can sell 100 on my own in a coupla months so actually why do i need him...??? self publishing can work and works well especially for chaps no hassles do the math On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:01:00 -0500 "Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje)" writes: > Hi everyone: In reponse to John Cunningham's original question (and > pardon me if this issue's been been raised already): questions of > legitmacy change depending on context and function. If the function > of > a book of poems is to represent its author's vision and please its > readers, then it shouldn't matter how it's published. If purpose > and > function also include, though, things like (cough) tenure review, > then > how it's published will matter very much. > > Joseph Harrington has an interesting essay about how the process of > evaluating poetry has become an increasingly sticky-wicket: > http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=HxNWlsgQTq3sp26kbp4m > rFwbHQTgTp3JwZ28xxb1lL6gg8XL5dZG!1143229533?docId=98942209 and there > it > is, if you're interested. > > I'm curious, though, if one's confident about the merits of the work > and > ready to defend them, why "lie through the teeth" as JQ said below. > Isn't this an inconsistency? If the "peer-review" process of > submitting > one's work and aligning it with so-called established conventions > is > rubbish, why even pretend to be part of it? Either that, or how > about > establish a new set of conventions, proclaim them, and uphold them > with > one's own press? > > Joanie > > ....................................................... > Joanie Mackowski, PhD > Assistant Professor > English & Comparative Literature > University of Cincinnati > PO Box 210069 > Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 > Tel. 513/556-3207 > Fax 513/556-5960 > joanie.mackowski@uc.edu > http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:01 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Self-publishing > > ng is ok, but I think it's best and most honorably done > within the context of also publishing other people. > > Hugh Behm-Steinberg > > Ryan Daley wrote: Too, should be considered the > idea > that creative process is less "mediated" > when you self-publish --and though we're all self-editing in some > way or > another -- you're free to put whatever you want on the cover, > regardless > of > how it might affect "marketability." > > On Feb 10, 2008 5:36 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press > to > > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because > i > > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want > it > > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor > from > > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a > dead > > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about > the > > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as > un-self-publishy > > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost > no > > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that > they > > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, > marketing, > > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having > someone > > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are > ways > > to get good work done. > > > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various > poets > > > over the > > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > > idea of > > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass > the > > > whole > > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so > published > > > or should > > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your > thoughts > > > would be > > > appreciated. > > > John Cunningham > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release > Date: > > > 08/02/2008 > > > 8:12 PM > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try > it now. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: Self-publishing Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, John Cunningham In-Reply-To: <000601c86bd9$213cff20$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi John and all, When a friend of mine and I started Boog Literature in 1991, we did what many small press publishers have done, ferlinghetti among them, publish our own work as the first offering. (in our case a 24-page micromini flip-chapbook with one of us on each side released that august.) That was the last time Boog published a book by one of its editors. And now, with our newspaper Boog City, we don't publish work by our poetry editor(s). In 2000 I wanted to gift some friends of mine a poem i'd written, so I put together a small 12-page chapbook, and picked a press name, Euclid Avenue, in honor of d.a. levy and the Cleveland Street he traversed. The goal was that anytime I wanted to get work of mine out to folks I could do it at home with my high-end laser printer, stanley bostitch long-arm stapler, and bone folder, do it on plain white paper and either give it away to friends or charge a buck or two. Sortly thereafter I'd rename the press 213 Euclid Avenue, the 213 to honor Henry Rollins' press 2.13.61 and his publishing of his own work, and my mom, also born on 2.13. And for the last six years anytime I've done a featured reading I've put together a chapbook of all the work I'm reading for the slot in the order I'm reading it. That was originally for the ease of having all the work together to read, and, after the first time, because I saw that people who enjoyed the reading or a specific poem or poems bought the chap because they'd have all the pieces right there in one place. To me it's always been about getting the word out, be it my own or others. That said, I've never been a fan of poets who publish their own poems in their pubs after the first issue, hence my separate vanity press. Best, David On 2/10/08 6:35 AM, "John Cunningham" wrote: > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets over the > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole idea of > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the whole > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published or should > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts would be > appreciated. > John Cunningham > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: 08/02/2008 > 8:12 PM > -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:57:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cassandra Laity Subject: CFP: MSA Hosted Session on Modernism at 2008 MLA Convention Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline CFP: An open call for submissions for an MSA-hosted session at the 2008 = MLA Convention In accordance with our new status as an Allied Organization of the Modern = Language Association, MSA will sponsor two sessions at the upcoming MLA = Convention in San Francisco, December 27-30, 2008. One session will be an = invited forum or roundtable on new directions in Modernist Studies; the = other will be a panel constructed from the open call for papers, as = specified below: Abstracts of 400-500 words are invited on any aspect of modernist studies. = Please send proposals and 150-word bios by March 15th, 2008. Papers will = be chosen on the basis of quality, interest, and compatibility. Please send queries or proposals to Cassandra Laity: e-mail: postal address: Department of English 36 Madison Avenue Drew University Madison, NJ 07940 Cassandra Laity=20 Associate Professor Co-Editor Modernism/Modernity=20 Drew University=20 Madison, NJ 07940 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:15:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: self-publishing (review journal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Christophe It seems you have hit upon a niche that it's worth taking a go at. I think it will need some kind of frame for credibility--e.g. so I don't have my mother send in the review and say I'm the next Whitman, maybe you assign reviews. Maybe each review includes a sample poem. I don't know. Something to think about. Charlie -- "WALK in the world you can't see anything from a car window, still less from a plane or from the moon" William Carlos Williams www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/charlierossiter hear Charlie as solo performance poet www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:31:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Tysh Subject: Wayne State University Writing Competition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, DEPARTMENT OF ENGLISH 2008 WRITING CONTESTS Deadline: February 29, 2008 The Judith Siegel Pearson Award is awarded for the best creative or scholarly work on a subject concerning women. Each year, on a rotating basis, either fiction, drama, poetry or essays in literary studies will be designated for submission. For the 2008 award, unpublished DRAMA may be submitted. Submissions should be anonymous with the author's name and address on a separate title page. There should be TWO copies of each entry clearly typed on one side of 8 1/2 x 11 paper, double-spaced and proofread carefully. Contestants retain copyright of all work submitted. All manuscripts must be sent to the JUDITH SIEGEL PEARSON AWARD c/o English department, Wayne State University, attn: Rhonda Agnew, Detroit, MI 48202 Deadline for submission February 29, 2008. First prize: $500 Award to be announced on April 18, 2008. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:31:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Joanie, Could you repost the link Harrington's article? I keep getting sent to a a piece of an article about growing up in Germany. Hugh "Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje)" wrote: Hi everyone: In reponse to John Cunningham's original question (and pardon me if this issue's been been raised already): questions of legitmacy change depending on context and function. If the function of a book of poems is to represent its author's vision and please its readers, then it shouldn't matter how it's published. If purpose and function also include, though, things like (cough) tenure review, then how it's published will matter very much. Joseph Harrington has an interesting essay about how the process of evaluating poetry has become an increasingly sticky-wicket: http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=HxNWlsgQTq3sp26kbp4m rFwbHQTgTp3JwZ28xxb1lL6gg8XL5dZG!1143229533?docId=98942209 and there it is, if you're interested. I'm curious, though, if one's confident about the merits of the work and ready to defend them, why "lie through the teeth" as JQ said below. Isn't this an inconsistency? If the "peer-review" process of submitting one's work and aligning it with so-called established conventions is rubbish, why even pretend to be part of it? Either that, or how about establish a new set of conventions, proclaim them, and uphold them with one's own press? Joanie ....................................................... Joanie Mackowski, PhD Assistant Professor English & Comparative Literature University of Cincinnati PO Box 210069 Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 Tel. 513/556-3207 Fax 513/556-5960 joanie.mackowski@uc.edu http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:01 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Self-publishing Self-publishing is ok, but I think it's best and most honorably done within the context of also publishing other people. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Ryan Daley wrote: Too, should be considered the idea that creative process is less "mediated" when you self-publish --and though we're all self-editing in some way or another -- you're free to put whatever you want on the cover, regardless of how it might affect "marketability." On Feb 10, 2008 5:36 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want it > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as un-self-publishy > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that they > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having someone > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways > to get good work done. > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > > over the > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > idea of > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > > whole > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > > or should > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > > would be > > appreciated. > > John Cunningham > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > > 08/02/2008 > > 8:12 PM > > > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:52:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Sounding the Seventies Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed As a kind of side project as the organizational work on the NPF's conference on The Poetry of the 1970s moves forward, I've been focusing on soundfiles recorded in (or somehow related to) the 1970s over at Lipstick of Noise. The site is here http://www.thirdfactory.net/lipstick.html And a full track-list is here http://www.thirdfactory.net/lipstick-tracklist-master.html If you have rare 70s-related sound recordings that you might be willing to share, please let me here from you at steve dot evans at maine dot edu All best, Steve * * * * Steve Evans Associate Professor of English Graduate Studies Coordinator New Writing Series Coordinator 313 Neville Hall University of Maine Orono, ME 04469 207-581-3818 www.thirdfactory.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:54:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Speaking of Do-It-Yourself & Self Publishing -- Susana Gardner=?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99s?= Guts and Gumption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Two years ago, Susana Gardner tirelessly invited and organized poets= =0A=0ATwo years ago, Susana Gardner tirelessly invited and organized poets= =0Afrom all over the world to join the * a dusi/e-chap kollektiv. Those c= hapbooks were also made available=0Aonline here: [ http://www.dusie.org/co= ntribpage.html=0A]=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ATHIS YEAR=E2=80=99S efforts multiplied= and are now available here [ http://www.dusie.org/ ], including chapbooks= =0Aby:=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ASusana Gardner =0A=0A=0AAdam Fieled =0A=0A=0ATim= Armentrout =0A=0A=0AAnne Heide =0A=0A=0ADrew Kunz =0A=0A=0AChris Pusateri = =0A=0A=0AElisabeth Workman =0A=0A=0AAmy King =0A=0A=0AHugh & Mary Behm-Ste= inberg =0A=0A=0AJoseph Cooper =0A=0A=0ADana Ward=0A=0A=0ACatherine Daly= =0A=0A=0AWanda Phipps =0A=0A=0AGiles Goodland =0A=0A=0AEileen Tabios =0A=0A= =0AMarco Giovenale =0A=0A=0AKaia Sand/Jules Boykoff =0A=0A=0ABronwen Tate = =0A=0A=0ASheila e. Murphy =0A=0A=0ALance Newman =0A=0A=0AMatina L. Stamatak= is =0A=0A=0ANicole Mauro =0A=0A=0ACarrie Hunter =0A=0A=0ARay Farr =0A=0A= =0ASarah Mangold =0A=0A=0ASimone Muench =0A=0A=0ABob Marcacci =0A=0A=0AMich= elle Detorie =0A=0A=0APaul Klinger =0A=0A=0ABoyd Spahr =0A=0A=0ABill All= egrezza =0A=0A=0ALogan=0ARyan Smith =0A=0A=0ACheryl Quimba =0A=0A=0ARobyn A= rt=0A=0A=0AAnne Boyer =0A=0A=0ALisa Janssen =0A=0A=0AAlana Madison = =0A=0A=0ATom Orange =0A=0A=0AJessica Bozek /Eli Queen =0A=0A=0A=0AJe= n Hofer =0A=0A=0AMarci Nelligan =0A=0A=0AKristy Bowen =0A=0A=0ASara= h Anne & Paris=0ACox =0A=0A=0AJill Stengel =0A=0A=0AShanna Compton = =0A=0A=0AJohn Deming =0A=0A=0ASawako Nakayasu =0A=0A=0AK. Lorraine= =0AGraham =0A=0A=0AJ. Scappettone =0A=0A=0ADavid Berridge =0A=0A=0AMark= Lamorueux=0A=0A=0AWade Fletcher=0A=0A=0ARick Snyder =0A=0A=0Adavid-bapti= ste chirot=0A=0A=0ASamar Abulhassan =0A=0A=0Ajared hayes =0A=0A=0AJill Magi= =0A=0A=0AMackenzie Carignan=0A=0A=0AJane Sprague =0A=0A=0AJordan Stemplema= n =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AAll available here --- > =0Ahttp://www.dusie.org/ =0A= =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A~~~~=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AInterested in reviewing any of these= titles? =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 please be sure to check out the Dusie=0AReview= Blog, which is for chapbooks, ebooks and bookbooks alike. Request a book= =0Ato review, or do a write up of one of the easily accessible/ free e-chap= s via=0ADusie to critically review and publish on the Dusie blogsite [ http= ://www.dusie.blogspot.com/ ]=E2=80=9D by=0Acontacting the Dusie editor here= : =0Ahttp://www.dusie.org/adusienote.html .=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A~~~~~=0A=0A= =0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A[* a dusi/e-chap kollektiv is a congregation of poet= s all of=0Awhom have printed a limited edition of 50 chaps of their own des= ign and=0Aproduction under the auspices of Dusie and its first annual colle= ctive chap=0Apress. The project aims to satisfy two aspects of publishing, = the creative=0Asmall chap which one can easily distribute among peers and h= ave for readings as=0Awell as the fabulously viable and easily distributabl= e to a wider readership as=0Aan e-chap.]=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AThanks Susana & = each contributor!=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AEnjoy,=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AAmy=0A=0A=0A = =0A_______ =0ABlog=0A =0Ahttp://www.amyking.org/blog=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A = _______________________________________________________________________= _____________=0ABe a better friend, newshound, and =0Aknow-it-all with Yaho= o! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypa= o8Wcj9tAcJ =0A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:20:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stuart Ross Subject: Re: Mimeo Author Index In-Reply-To: <50434709-8396-439C-AAD5-AEF279750246@mwt.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit jwcurry is still at it. He has a working Gestetner and a pretty good supply of ink and stencils, so far as I know. A few years ago, he set up a printing room in the hospitality suite of the Ottawa International Writers Festival and invited writers to come in, type up a sheet, and he spent all night hand-cranking the suckers out. He made a gorgeous big book of the contributions. Stuart On 2/12/08 10:13 AM, "mIEKAL aND" wrote: > What I want to know is if anyone is still using mimeography to > produce books. Probably pretty hard to find the stencils at this > point in time. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Feb 12, 2008, at 12:05 AM, Joel Lewis wrote: > >> Ah, the mimeo, the 8-track cartridge of the poetry world! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:19:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Elizabeth Switaj - 'Self-publishing' In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It's not simplistic but a personal selection. Any other is welcome to their preferences and combinations; my combinations are more like those the Earth makes of itself to reach the sky, only not as permanent And there I go muddying my meaning by going beyond sixteen words. Alas! EKS On Feb 12, 2008 9:26 AM, Roy Exley wrote: > Elizabeth, > > A nice bit of simplistic dualism on your behalf, but why heap all the > responsibility on Emily Dickinson's shoulders when she is no longer around > to justify her position? A choice of either either Zen or Emily is a bit > of > a big call to make, especially as I prefer the bleak nihilism found in the > 'confessional' poetry of say Ann Sexton or John Berryman - or do I detect > a > less than subtle application of facetiousness in your reply? But surely > you > can muster up more that sixteen words in response to this message - there > must be a lot of mileage here! > > Roy Exley. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:26:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Fri 2/15 ::: Pierre Joris & Dan Machlin ::: Brooklyn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Burning Chair Readings invite you to recalibrate your= =0A=0AThe=0ABurning Chair Readings=0A=0A=0Ainvite=0Ayou to recalibrate your= ears=0A=0A=0Aw/ =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0APierre=0AJoris & Dan = Machlin=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AFriday,=0AFebruary 15th, 2008=0A=0A=0A7:30=0APM= =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AThe=0AFall Caf=E9=0A=0A=0A307=0ASmith Street=0A=0A=0Abtw= n.=0AUnion & President=0A=0A=0ACarroll=0AGarden, Brooklyn=0A=0A=0AF/G=0Ato = Carroll=0A=0A=0AFREE=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0APierre=0AJoris is a poet, translator= ,=0Aessayist & anthologist who left Luxembourg at=0A19 and has since lived = in France, England, Algeria=0A& the United States. He has published over fo= rty books, with, forthcoming=0Ain 2008, Aljibar II (poems, a bilingual edit= ion with French=0Atranslations by Eric Sarner) and Justifying the Margins: = Essays 1990-2006=0A(SALT Publishing). His 2007 publications include the CD = Routes, not Roots=0A(with Munir Beken, oud; Mike Bisio, bass; Ben Chadabe, = percussion; & Mitch=0AElrod, guitar) issued by Ta=92wil Productions; Aljiba= r=0A(with French translations by Eric Sarner, published in Luxembourg by Ed= itions PHI) and =0AMeditations on the Stations of Mansour Al-Hallaj 1-21(An= chorite Press, Albany).=0A Recent translations include Paul Celan: Selectio= ns, and Lightduress=0Aby Paul Celan, which received the 2005 PEN Poetry Tr= anslation Award. With=0AJerome Rothenberg he edited the award-winning antho= logies Poems for the=0AMillennium (volumes I & II) and most recently, Pablo= =0APicasso, The Burial of the Count of Orgaz & Other Poems.=0AHe is Profess= or for poetry and poetics at the University of Albany, State University of = New York. Check out his website=0A& his Nomadics blog.=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ADa= n=0AMachlin=92s first full-length=0Acollection of poems Dear Body: was publ= ished by Ugly Duckling Presse in=0AFall 2007. He is also the author of seve= ral previous chapbooks: 6x7, This=0ASide Facing You, In Rem; and an audio-C= D collaboration with=0ASinger/Cellist Serena Jost, Above Islands. His poems= and reviews have=0Arecently appeared in/on Critiphoria.org, Crayon, Turnta= ble=0A& Blue Light, and A Portable Boog Reader 2. He is the=0Afounding edi= tor of Futurepoem books.=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0Atypomag.com/burningchair=0A=0A= =0Aflesheatingpoems.blogspot.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________= ____________________________________________________________________=0ANeve= r miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. =0Ahttp://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:06:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje)" Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: A<700942.97552.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hugh-- here's another link: http://alh.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/8/3/496.pdf Perhaps it will work better. And the article is: "Why American Poetry is not American Literature," by Joseph Harrington, from _American Literary History_, april 1996. Joanie ....................................................... Joanie Mackowski, PhD Assistant Professor English & Comparative Literature University of Cincinnati PO Box 210069 Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 Tel. 513/556-3207 Fax 513/556-5960 joanie.mackowski@uc.edu http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:31 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Self-publishing Hi Joanie, =20 Could you repost the link Harrington's article? I keep getting sent to a a piece of an article about growing up in Germany. Hugh "Mackowski, Joanie (mackowje)" wrote: Hi everyone: In reponse to John Cunningham's original question (and pardon me if this issue's been been raised already): questions of legitmacy change depending on context and function. If the function of a book of poems is to represent its author's vision and please its readers, then it shouldn't matter how it's published. If purpose and function also include, though, things like (cough) tenure review, then how it's published will matter very much. =20 Joseph Harrington has an interesting essay about how the process of evaluating poetry has become an increasingly sticky-wicket: http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=3DHxNWlsgQTq3sp26kbp4= m rFwbHQTgTp3JwZ28xxb1lL6gg8XL5dZG!1143229533?docId=3D98942209 and there = it is, if you're interested. I'm curious, though, if one's confident about the merits of the work and ready to defend them, why "lie through the teeth" as JQ said below. Isn't this an inconsistency? If the "peer-review" process of submitting one's work and aligning it with so-called established conventions is rubbish, why even pretend to be part of it? Either that, or how about establish a new set of conventions, proclaim them, and uphold them with one's own press? =20 Joanie ....................................................... Joanie Mackowski, PhD Assistant Professor English & Comparative Literature University of Cincinnati PO Box 210069 Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 Tel. 513/556-3207 Fax 513/556-5960 joanie.mackowski@uc.edu http://homepages.uc.edu/~mackowje =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Hugh Behm-Steinberg Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:01 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Self-publishing Self-publishing is ok, but I think it's best and most honorably done within the context of also publishing other people. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Ryan Daley wrote: Too, should be considered the idea that creative process is less "mediated" when you self-publish --and though we're all self-editing in some way or another -- you're free to put whatever you want on the cover, regardless of how it might affect "marketability." On Feb 10, 2008 5:36 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Just because most self-published stuff is crap about learning zen > from watching your dog while gardening, doesn't mean all self- > published stuff is didactic crap. I intend to start a micro-press to > publish my frist book of poetry sometime this year, mostly because i > can't be bothered with all that editorial crap. I know what I want it > to be and frankly, the idea of waiting around until some editor from > a press decides to annoint me and declare my worthiness for a dead > tree edition, well, i've just never been a supplicant by nature. > > that having been said, i do intend to lie through my teeth about the > nature of my micro press in order to make it seem as un-self-publishy > as possible. In all, the whole thing is a bit of an art piece > investigating the nature of what a press is in an age when almost no > presses actually do their own pressing on pressing machines that they > own. Put another way, these days a press is book design, marketing, > editting, and funding. If one is willing to give up on having someone > else complete any and or all of those functions, then there are ways > to get good work done. > > On Feb 10, 2008, at 3:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > As a result of a number of discussions I've had with various poets > > over the > > past several months, I'd like to get some feedback on the whole > > idea of > > self-publishing and its legitimacy. Does this process by-pass the > > whole > > concept of peer review and so delegitimate the poetry so published > > or should > > this form of publication be more highly recognized? Your thoughts > > would be > > appreciated. > > John Cunningham > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1267 - Release Date: > > 08/02/2008 > > 8:12 PM > > > =20 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. =20 --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:42:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sarah Mangold Subject: Introducing Bird Dog, Number Nine Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Sporty and devoted, the Bird Dog has a surprisingly loud bark for its=20 size. Easily recognized by a distinctive orange coat, it needs plenty=20 of exercise and does best in an environment where it has space to roam=20= freely. This is Bird Dog, Number Nine: Julia Cohen Daniel Comiskey Sarah Anne Cox Jordan Davis Shira Dentz Michelle Detorie Kate Eichhorn Nava Fader Garth Graeper Terita Heath-Wlaz Brian Henry Robert Mittenthal John Olson Sharon Lynn Osmond Jessea Perry Andrea Rexilius Judith Roitman Sandra Simonds Stephanie Strickland Mathias Svalina Eileen R. Tabios C. McAllister Williams Paintings from Nita Hill Plus, Sharon Lynn Osmond reviews Valerie Coulton=92s The Cellar Dreamer = &=20 John Olson reviews Rosmarie Waldrop=92s Curves to the Apple and Claude=20= Royet-Journoud=92s theory of prepositions Single issues $8 postage paid. Subscriptions $15. PayPal or check: =20 www.birddogmagazine.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:50:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roy Exley Subject: Re: Elizabeth Switaj 'Self-publishing' Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Elizabeth, Thank you for the bonus of 32 words in your reply, a 200% increase! Thanks also for the poesy which crept into your words with your reference to Earth and sky. The world is of course driven by preferences and the fact that we all have different temperaments and aspirations means that the human ingredient of our world is infinitely diverse and let's be thankful for that. The fact of this rich diversity challenges the writer, of course, and the words which stitch together our experiences of the world and our communication of those experiences color not only our relationships but our ability to inspire others through our sharing of those experiences. Words are ephemeral but illustrate our preferences, briefly exposing our patterns of thought and qualities of soul hopefully with the beauty of one of those starburst fireworks whose pyrotechnics are brief but whose afterimage lingers on first optically and then in our memories to have an impact that is in inverse proportion to the brevity of its illumination. Our enigmatic relationship to words is beautifully addressed by the poetry of the English poet W.S.Graham particularly in his book, 'Malcolm Mooney's Land' but his Collected Poems are also worth looking at. Thanks for the conversation. Roy Exley. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:52:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amanda Earl Subject: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed for all interested in self-publishing, i recommend you check out this very thorough DIY article by Jim Munroe, another one of Canada's indie publishing gurus, after Stuart, of course: http://nomediakings.org/YouShouldMain.htm Amanda ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:09:16 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: Re: Self-publishing In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Note that you might both "fall in" and out of traditional publishing. Not only do unrecognized self-published poets eventually get published by established publishing houses. Some who are "in" also choose to leave their publisher and publish themselves. And some poets and writers get rejected after their first or second book has been published. Publishers mostly try to build longer relationships with poets/writers but this does not always work, and there can be many reasons for that; the actual quality of the work or the state of the market. The distinction between those who self-publish and those published by publishing houses is not always crystal clear. Karl-Erik Tallmo -- _________________________________________________________________ KARL-ERIK TALLMO, writer, artist, journalist etc. ARTWORK, WRITINGS etc.: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/ COPYRIGHT HISTORY: http://www.copyrighthistory.com _________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:50:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: MARCHEN (umlaut over the a) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i am pleased to ssay this new little volume will be coming out in July. Thi= nk the normal convention to noumlautness is to spell it maerchen. susan mau= rer _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.=A0You IM, we g= ive. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:01:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sipai Klein Subject: poetry rss feeds In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I recently started using Google Reader to bring together rss feeds from different websites...makes weblife a little lighter. Does anyone know poetry websites that use rss feeds? Thanks, Sipai ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City 48 Print and Online PDF Editions Available Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ------------------- Hi all, The print edition of Boog City 48 will be available tomorrow, Valentine's Day. You can read the pdf version now at: http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc48.pdf Thanks, David -------------------- Boog City 48 =20 available today =20 featuring: =20 ***Our Politics section*** =20 --Jim Behrle's At the Poles provides a comic take on the 2008 presidential election race in comic form. --"Ameritopia once fancied itself a democracy, but when a financial network with no obligations to the social welfare of the country controls our economy, to whom do we defer?" --from The Ameritopian Dream? by Kristin Prevallet ***Our Printed Matter section, edited by Mark Lamoureux*** --"Oatis=B9 stanzas are soft, quite simply beautiful. Composed of soft fissures. The parts (the integers=8Bthe nouns) blurt themselves out softly into a soft surround." --from Oatis vs. Language; from Two Percept by Marth= a Oatis (Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs), reviewed by Alan Davies --"Language is the evidence of that, and, as is always the case with evidence as such, the beginning of the possibility of change." --from Burnham's a Man With a Van; Rental Van by Clint Burnham (Anvil Press), reviewed by Davies ***Our Music section, edited by Jonathan Berger*** =20 --"Could Cherry, too, be just another geek rising up from the cool-kid-fanned embers of the fire of self-doubt?" --from Pop-Punk Cherry Tastes Just Right; Life is Sweeter=8A by Jerry Cherry, reviewed by Jocelyn Mackenzie --"After only two releases it=B9s obvious that Friend Factory, aka Mike Dillenberger, is the most exciting one-man band since Prince (and, like Prince, he=B9s looking=A0to get a real band together)." --from Welcome to the Friend Factory; The Hillside EP and Comeuppance by Friend Factory, reviewed by Justin Remer ***Our Comics section*** =20 --"Three cartoonists from Berlin visit Israel, three from Tel Aviv visit Germany, and all six report on their experiences via comics." --from Drawin= g from Berlin and Tel Aviv; Cargo (Avant-Verlag), reviewed by Gary Sullivan ***Art editor Brenda Iijima brings us work from Thomas Fink.*** =20 =20 ***Our Poetry section, edited by Laura Elrick and Rodrigo Toscano*** (excerpts from each of this issue's poems below) --Wilton, N.Y.'s Se=E1n M. Dalpiaz with A Round Walk Rounded steel ordering footsteps that grant a thought to a guard=B9s lips; lip service cracks the concrete, the state workers plow their machines through to fill the cracks with hot tar; --Nashville, Tenn.'s Tom Orange with from Equal Us Teach the heavy impact or loss of being. The point at which you said minutes, later embraced, then craved. A haunted soul would not recover the grave. Swirl cut them and sharper. When writing counts the world in its rope (or trope). Let it read slow. Too much of it, there you go= . --Chicago's Charles Rossiter with Dear Aspiring Writer: The Fuckaround School of Creative Writing Welcomes You We know you will enjoy your time in the Fuckaround program as you experience our brief, though intense, times together in exotic locales around the world. --the East Village=B9s Lisa Cohen with Sounds of the World=B9s Languages Is your stuff trash? I just want to make sure that it gets there. Everybody does. And now I=B9m really nervous. *And photos from Jason Berger and Greg Fuchs.* =20 ----- =20 And thanks to our copy editor, Joe Bates. =20 ----- =20 Please patronize our advertisers: =20 Bowery Poetry Club * http://www.bowerypoetry.com Koja Press * http://kojapress.com/ Nocturnal Editions * patrick.lovelace@gmail.com Ocho 14 * http://www.lulu.com/content/1388882 And thanks to our anonymous donors ----- =20 Advertising or donation inquiries can be directed to editor@boogcity.com or by calling 212-842-BOOG (2664) =20 ----- =20 2,250 copies of Boog City are distributed among, and available for free at, the following locations: =20 MANHATTAN =20 *THE EAST VILLAGE* =20 Acme Underground =20 Anthology Film Archives Bluestockings =20 Bowery Poetry Club=20 Caf=E9 Pick Me Up Cake Shop Lakeside Lounge =20 Life Caf=E9 Living Room Mission Caf=E9 =20 Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 Other Music Pianos =20 St. Mark's Books =20 St. Mark's Church =20 Shakespeare & Co. =20 Sidewalk Caf=E9 =20 Sunshine Theater =20 Trash and Vaudeville Two Boots Video *OTHER PARTS OF MANHATTAN* =20 Angelika Film Center and Caf=E9 Hotel Chelsea Mercer Street Books Poets House =20 =20 BROOKLYN =20 *WILLIAMSBURG* =20 Academy Records Bliss Caf=E9 Galapagos =20 Sideshow Gallery =20 Soundfix/Fix Cafe=20 Spoonbill & Sugartown Supercore Caf=E9 =20 *GREENPOINT* (available early next week) =20 Greenpoint Coffee House Lulu's=20 Photoplay Video & DVD Thai Cafe =20 The Pencil Factory =20 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:52:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: NEW BOOK by Rachel Zolf MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Nomados Literary Publishers is very happy to announce: SHOOT AND WEEP by RACHEL ZOLF Poetry 36 pp ISBN 978-0-9781072-8-4 @ = $10.00 "Rachel Zolf has realized that one of poetry's potentials is to delve = into perilous issues and dwell there, exploring the complications. SHOOT AND = WEEP does not leave us with any easy answers of what is to be done about the conflicts between Palestine and Israel. But it does insist that we think about it and that we hold several different points of view at the front = of our brain as we do this thinking." -Juliana Spahr ORDER FROM Meredith Quartermain mquarter@interchange.ubc.ca. OR Nomados = P.O. Box 4031, 349 West Georgia, Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3Z4 OR Quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca OR nomadosnomados@yahoo.com Shipping at cost. US$ at par. OTHER NOMADOS BOOKS ARTICULATIONS by Fred Wah Poetry 40 pp ISBN 978-0-9781072-5-3 @ $10.00. WHEN SNAKES AWAKEN by KEN BELFORD Poetry 36 pp ISBN 978-0-9781072-6-0 @=20 $10.00 VALUE UNMAPPED by ROBERT MITTENTHAL Poetry 36 pp ISBN 978-0-9781072-7-7 = @=20 $10.00 PUNCTUM by Lola Lemire Tostevin Poetry 24 pp ISBN 978-0-9781072-4-6 @ = $8.00 SPORATIC GROWTH by Jay MillAr Poetry 28 pp @ $8.00 ADULT VIDEO by Margaret Christakos 26 pp ISBN 0-9735337-7-3 @ $8.00. COLD TRIP by Nancy Shaw & Catriona Strang 28 pp ISBN 0-9735337-6-5 @ = $10.00 READY FOR FREDDY by Renee Rodin 32 pp ISBN 0-9735337-5-7 @ $10.00 WEEPING WILLOW by Sharon Thesen 27 pp ISBN 0-9735337-3-0 @ $8.00 ROUSSEAU'S BOAT by Lisa Robertson 40 pp ISBN 0-9735337-1-4 @ $10.00 GOOD EGG BAD SEED by Susan Holbrook ISBN 0-9735337-0-6 @ $10.00 WORLD ON FIRE by Charles Bernstein 24pp ISBN 0-9731521-9-2 @ $10.00 THE IRREPARABLE by Robin Blaser 32pp ISBN 0-9731521-1-7. @ $10.00. SEVEN GLASS BOWLS by Daphne Marlatt 24pp ISBN 0-9731521-5-X. @ $10.00. WANDERS. Robin Blaser & Meredith Quartermain 40pp ISBN 0-9731521-0-9 = @=20 $10.00. A THOUSAND MORNINGS by Meredith Quartermain 90pp ISBN 0-9731521-2-5 @=20 $10.00. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver BC Canada V6A 1Y7 604 255 8274 (voice and fax) quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:33:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stuart Ross Subject: IF I WERE YOU, by Ron Padgett and friends... In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Last year I published a lovely book that might interest some of you. IF I WERE YOU By Ron Padgett Collaborations with Bill Berkson, Ted Berrigan, Tom Clark, Larry Fagin, Dick Gallup, Allen Ginsberg, Lita Hornick, Alice Notley, Douglas Oliver, James Schuyler, Tom Veitch, and Yu Jian 48 pages in wrappers, cover drawing by Joe Brainard, 376 copies, Proper Tales Press, 2007. (A few copies of the signed/lettered special edition of 26, bound in boards, are still available for US$50 + S&H.) If you'd like to order a copy, they're US$12 + $4 S&H. Write me for payment options or for a PDF of the cover. Stuart Ross ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:10:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: poetry rss feeds In-Reply-To: <56506.128.123.82.144.1202922119.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every poetry blog out there has an rss feed, I have about 20 of them in my rss reader.. if you have any interest in visual poetry I highly recommend Geof Huth's blog which is extensive & very attentive... ~mIEKAL I use netvibes.com for my aggregator, it just installs as a homepage in your browser. Works like a charm. On Feb 13, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Sipai Klein wrote: > Hello, > > I recently started using Google Reader to bring together rss feeds > from > different websites...makes weblife a little lighter. Does anyone know > poetry websites that use rss feeds? > > Thanks, > > Sipai > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:34:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Thomas-Glass Subject: Re: poetry rss feeds In-Reply-To: <56506.128.123.82.144.1202922119.squirrel@webmail.nmsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jacket has a good one--- http://jacketmagazine.com/rss/rss.xml Dan On Feb 13, 2008 9:01 AM, Sipai Klein wrote: > Hello, > > I recently started using Google Reader to bring together rss feeds from > different websites...makes weblife a little lighter. Does anyone know > poetry websites that use rss feeds? > > Thanks, > > Sipai > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:03:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Camille Martin & Susan Holbrook - Test Reading Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm reading at Toronto's Test Reading Series with Susan Holbrook this = Friday - please come if you can! =20 Camille Martin =20 Friday, 15 February 2008, 8:00 p.m. SUSAN HOLBROOK and CAMILLE MARTIN (bios below) at the Test Reading Series Mercer Union, A Centre for Contemporary Art 37 Lisgar Street, Toronto Free (small donations toward the running of the series gratefully = accepted) =20 For more information about the readers (including sample work and = contextual notes), recordings of previous installments, and a map, = please visit www.testreading.org .=20 =20 =20 **************************** SUSAN HOLBROOK teaches North American literatures and Creative Writing = at the University of Windsor. She has just co-edited The Letters of = Gertrude Stein and Virgil Thomson: Composition as Conversation (Oxford = UP, 2008). Her poetry books are misled (Red Deer, 1999) and Good Egg Bad = Seed (Nomados, 2004).=20 =20 CAMILLE MARTIN, a poet and collage artist who recently moved to Toronto = from New Orleans, is the author of Codes of Public Sleep (Toronto: = BookThug, 2007) as well as several earlier chapbooks. Recent work is = published or forthcoming in The Literary Review, PRECIPICe, The Walrus, = West Coast Line, This Magazine, White Wall Review, and Peter O'Toole. = Her current project is a collection of sonnets. She has presented her = work in numerous cities in the United States and Canada. She teaches = writing and literature at Ryerson University.=20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:41:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Reading in NYC Comments: To: kimmelma@njit.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An Evening of Marsh Hawk Press Poetry =20 Readings by =20 Jane Augustine, Burt Kimmelman, Sandy McIntosh, Stephen Paul Miller, and Rochelle Ratner. =20 Hosted by Dorothy Friedman =20 February 28, 2008 (a Thursday) =20 8 to 10 PM =20 The Living Theater 21 Clinton Street (between Stanton and Houston Streets) New York City=20 One flight down =20 212 792 8050=20 contact@livingtheatre.org =20 http://www.livingtheatre.org/livingpoetry.html and http://www.livingtheatre.org/ Directions: 21 Clinton Street, New York City Houston Street Bus M21 Avenue B bus M9 Subway: F train to "2nd Avenue" (exit front of train on 1st Ave; walk east along Houston) or F train to "Delancey Street" Admission Free =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. J. Patrick Liszkiewicz" Subject: Anthology of poetry in support of jailed Burmese poet Saw Wai, now live at ANTI- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello everyone, In case you've not yet heard: on January 22, 2008, in the country of Myanmar, a man named Saw Wai was jailed for writing a poem. The eight-line poem, "February 14," had been published the previous day in the popular Burmese weekly A Chit (or The Love Journal), and is about a man who learns the true meaning of love when his heart is broken by a fashion model. Because "February 14" looks the part of a saccharine Valentine, Burmese government censors missed its hidden message: when read top-to-bottom, the first word of each line forms the phrase, "Power Crazy Senior General Than Shwe." Senior General Than Shwe leads the military junta that has ruled Myanmar for almost twenty years. After seizing control of the Burmese government in 1988, the junta refused to relinquish power in 1990, when a democratic political party led by Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi won a popular election by an enormous margin. Suu Kyi has been in a Burmese prison for twelve of the past eighteen years; Than Shwe has been the country's dictator for the past fifteen. Saw Wai has been in prison, unable to see his family, for almost three weeks. Than Shwe's junta has long detained critics and dissidents for indefinite periods of time. But their methods do not stop at imprisonment. There are many accounts, some first-hand, of jailed dissidents being tortured while imprisoned. And in September, 2007, Than Shwe's troops opened fire on a peaceful, pro-democracy demonstration and killed more than thirty people, including several Buddhist monks who were leading the protests. It is unclear what will happen to Saw Wai, but with each day he spends in prison, it becomes clearer that his message is true. In response to Saw Wai's situation, I have edited a small, twelve-poet anthology of poems that each contain the phrase, "Power Crazy Senior General Than Shwe," in a manner that remains faithful to Saw Wai's poem. (The phrase is also the chapbook's title.) The anthology has been published in the online literary journal ANTI- (http://anti-poetry.com/chapbook1/), and may be freely downloaded and distributed. As the editor of ANTI-, Steven D. Schroeder, has written, "[this project] takes advantage of the fast turnaround time and unique presentation possibilities of the online format, and... stands against something that's clearly important and worth fighting." Participating poets have remarkably different backgrounds, and hail from California, Indiana, Michigan, New York, Oregon, Virginia, Washington, and elsewhere; one poet has never before been published, while another has won the National Book Award (Phillippines) five times. What unites these poets is the desire to speak and act against injustice. And sociable web media have allowed this to happen. I first heard about Saw Wai's jailing via another poet's blog, on January 24th; I immediately wrote and posted a poem-response on my blog, and began soliciting other bloggers I knew to do the same; I also contacted the editor of ANTI-, who had previously published my work in another venue, and proposed that I guest edit a small, chapbook-sized collection of such poetry. Via e-mail, listservs, blogs, and the like, the project was developed from conception to completion and publication in sixteen days. The speed of this realization was essential to the project, for as I write this Saw Wai is sitting in a jail cell in Myanmar. And this project is first and foremost concerned with raising awareness of that fact. With this in mind, I invite you to read and freely distribute the chapbook. Share it in any way you see fit. The sociable web carries with it the potential to speak across and through boundaries of all kinds, and though it remains to be seen whether our voices can penetrate the walls of Saw Wai's jail cell, we can at least allow Saw Wai's voice to break through them, by speaking through us. Thanks very much, A. J. Patrick Liszkiewicz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:48:37 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: house: a (tiny) memoir Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT house: a (tiny) memoir (a work-in-progress); lately I've been posting these little early 1970s prose memoir bits about Glengarry County & the farm on my blog (with photos of the same); the list of what's up so far is here: http://robmclennansindex.blogspot.com/2008/02/house-tiny-memoir.html because I'm west, I'm slowly running out of photos, but hope to get more when I'm in Ottawa in April, maybe farm soon after that; who knows, I may even get a book out of it...? rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:42:30 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Call for Works and Reviews: Schemata for Self-Published Materials Review Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, everyone, in the last few days I have received strong and enthusiastic feedback from = a number of group members. I want to briefly express my thanks and gratitud= e for giving small, private ventures some legitimacy. Now I'm pressed (lite= rally) to begin from the bottom:=20 In the next few weeks I'll be putting out calls for independently published= projects. And it doesn't have to be books, mind you, but any "object" that= was produced to be sold/distributed/marketed. Please send me an eMail if you would like to do the following: 1. suggest titles or individuals who I may contact 2. send me materials you've published yourself that you want reviewed 3. volunteer to review any number of materials that you see as an important= contribution to the DIY ethic my contact info is below Christophe Casamassima 2280 Druid Park Drive Baltimore, MD 21211 cacasama@towson.edu Thank you... =3D USPS-Approved Locking Mailbox Units Stop mail theft. Free shipping on all USPS-approved locking mailbox units. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D24add739ced4571d7708f= 1e590867a00 --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:26:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: Poetry vs. Prose in the Presidential Campaign? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This includes Harold Bloom on Barak Obama's two poetic Juvenulia http://poetry.about.com/b/2008/02/14/poetry-vs-prose-in-the-presidential-campaign.htm--- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:44:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Ouch! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See: http://garysullivan.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.=A0You IM, we g= ive. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:40:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel Ereditario Subject: new readings & video art at Meshworks archive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline friends, there is much to see at the Meshworks archive these days. we have readings up from Rae Armantrout and Trevor Joyce. we have Catherine Walsh, Geoffrey Squires, and Michael Smith from SoundEye 2007. there is video art work to complement/supplement readings: Justin Katko's "Aubade", Sean Bonney's "mysteries of hackney" trilogy, "not your father's depression" by Keith Tuma & myself, as well as a copy of Tom Raworth's work-in-progress, _Hands_. do enjoy all of this along with the popular "Song 4 Poo" by cris cheek. in the not too distant future, we'll have selected readings from the Diversity in African American Poetry Festival in 2003, as well as Kate Fagan and Peter Manson at SoundEye. you can find us at: http://youtube.com/meshworks or at: http://www.orgs.muohio.edu/meshworks <3 daniel Ereditario ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:05:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: IF I WERE YOU, by Ron Padgett and friends... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -= I'll bite. How much for postage to the UK?=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -= ---=0AFrom: Stuart Ross =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BU= FFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, 13 February, 2008 7:33:21 PM=0ASubject: IF I W= ERE YOU, by Ron Padgett and friends...=0A=0ALast year I published a lovely = book that might interest some of you.=0A=0AIF I WERE YOU=0A=0ABy Ron Padget= t=0A=0ACollaborations with Bill Berkson, Ted Berrigan, Tom Clark, Larry Fag= in, Dick=0AGallup, Allen Ginsberg, Lita Hornick, Alice Notley, Douglas Oliv= er, James=0ASchuyler, Tom Veitch, and Yu Jian=0A=0A48 pages in wrappers, co= ver drawing by Joe Brainard, 376 copies, Proper=0ATales Press, 2007. (A few= copies of the signed/lettered special edition of=0A26, bound in boards, ar= e still available for US$50 + S&H.)=0A=0AIf you'd like to order a copy, the= y're US$12 + $4 S&H. Write me for payment=0Aoptions or for a PDF of the cov= er.=0A=0AStuart Ross ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 04:11:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: self-publishing (review journal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey we can review our own self published works a new form of chronie criticism On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:15:37 -0600 Charlie Rossiter writes: > Christophe > > It seems you have hit upon a niche that it's worth taking a go at. > > I think it will need some kind of frame for credibility--e.g. so I > don't > have my mother send in the review and say I'm the next Whitman, > maybe you > assign reviews. Maybe each review includes a sample poem. I don't > know. > Something to think about. > > Charlie > > -- > "WALK in the world > you can't see anything from a car window, > still less from a plane or from the moon" > William Carlos Williams > > www.poetrypoetry.com > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them > > www.myspace.com/charlierossiter > hear Charlie as solo performance poet > > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) > > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues > > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:46:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How many people on the list are familiar with William Vollmann? I had him sign a bunch of books recently. He's a monster. Greatness. I saw and heard GREATNESS. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:35:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: PhillySound poets read in NYC for PEACE ON A SERIES /\\///\\\\/////\\\\\\///////\\\\\\\\///////// MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline PhillySound poets read in NYC for PEACE ON A SERIES /\\///\\\\/////\\\\\\///////\\\\\\\\///////// Thom Donovan's PEACE ON A has invited PhillySound http://PhillySound.blogspot.com BE THERE FOR A GREAT NIGHT OF POETRY! Saturday, MARCH 1st 8pm 166 Avenue A (btwn 10th & 11th) APARTMENT #2 PhillySound READERS WILL BE: CAConrad Mytili Jagannathan Dorothea Lasky Chris McCreary Frank Sherlock Kevin Varrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:59:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: self-publishing (review journal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ---- From: steve d. d= Walt Whitman did it.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: steve d. d= alachinsky =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: T= hursday, 14 February, 2008 9:11:05 AM=0ASubject: Re: self-publishing (revie= w journal)=0A=0Ahey we can review our own self published works a new form = of chronie=0Acriticism=0AOn Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:15:37 -0600 Charlie Rossite= r=0A writes:=0A> Christophe=0A> =0A> It = seems you have hit upon a niche that it's worth taking a go at.=0A> =0A> I = think it will need some kind of frame for credibility--e.g. so I =0A> don't= =0A> have my mother send in the review and say I'm the next Whitman, =0A> m= aybe you=0A> assign reviews. Maybe each review includes a sample poem. I d= on't =0A> know. =0A> Something to think about.=0A> =0A> Charlie=0A> =0A> --= =0A> "WALK in the world=0A> you can't see anything from a car window,=0A> = still less from a plane or from the moon"=0A> William Carlos Wil= liams=0A> =0A> www.poetrypoetry.com=0A> where you hear poems read by poets= who wrote them=0A> =0A> www.myspace.com/charlierossiter=0A> hear Charlie = as solo performance poet=0A> =0A> www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantret= ro poems)=0A> =0A> www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview=0A> hear Charl= ie & Henry sing the blues=0A> =0A> www.myspace.com/jackthe71special=0A> he= ar Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots=0A> =0A> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:00:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Thomas-Glass Subject: peter gizzi's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline email? Back channel if you got it, would be much appreciated--- Dan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:03:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: New Beard of Bees Chapbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QmVhcmQgb2YgQmVlcyBpcyBwbGVhc2VkIHRvIHByZXNlbnQgQSBEaWZmZXJlbnQgQm90aGVy IGJ5IEdyZWdvcnkgRnJhc2VyLiAgDQoNCmZyb20gIlRoZSBXaG9sZSBDb25jZXJuIjoNCg0K VGhlIHBlcmZlY3QgY3J1ZWx0eSBjb21lcyANCmluIGJhYnktdG9vdGggZG9zZXMuIE5vPyAN CkFtYXppbmcgd2UgZG9u4oCZdCBydW4gb2ZmIHRvIGR1c3R5IHBsYWlucy4gDQoNCkVuam95 IHRoZSB3aG9sZSB0aGluZyBoZXJlOg0KDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmJlYXJkb2ZiZWVzLmNvbS9m cmFzZXIuaHRtbA0KDQoNCg0KRXJpYyBFbHNodGFpbg0KRWRpdG9yDQpCZWFyZCBvZiBCZWVz IFByZXNzDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmJlYXJkb2ZiZWVzLmNvbQ0K ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:14:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria In-Reply-To: <797099.22079.qm@web52405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Vollmann has done fabulous raw and complex writing - I got hooked with the (alas unfinished) Seven Dream series, though I haven't liked as well the long books he's done since he stopped trying to finish that novel series. Certainly Whores for Gloria and Butterfly Stories and some of 13 Stories and 13 Epitaphs are intensely effective short works in abjection, longing, the eviscerating world. I often think of him in the same vein as Kathy Acker: the exposed self in the exposed world: to paraphrase Acker: 'nowadays I can write any way I want, because nobody gives a shit about writing and ideas; all anyone cares about is money.' Vollmann has a grip on the kinds of brutally creative, totally smart, literarily attuned (even as defiant), world-and-flesh-devouring broken writing that motivated Acker, I think. A happy find. Lisa On 2/13/08, steve russell wrote: > > How many people on the list are familiar with William Vollmann? I had him > sign a bunch of books recently. He's a monster. Greatness. I saw and heard > GREATNESS. > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:13:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Catherine Wagner at Vanderbilt University MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Vanderbilt Writing Studio Presents: On Writing, with Catherine Wagner Friday, February 15 4:30-6:00 pm Alumni Hall 117 On Writing is a series of conversations with faculty and other advanced writers at Vanderbilt about their writing practices. Conversations examine writers' eccentricities and the ways in which a given writer generates ideas, cultivates a style, and responds to various writing situations. Catherine Wagner is the author of two books of poems, Miss America and Macular Hole, and co-editor of Not for Mothers Only: Contemporary Poems on Child-Getting and Child-Rearing (all from Fence Books). She is the winner of the Ruth Lilly Prize and was a Teaching-Writing Fellow at the Iowa Writers Workshop. A native of Baltimore, Maryland, she is currently an Assistant Professor of English at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. Reception to follow. Writing Studio Vanderbilt University 117 Alumni Hall Nashville, TN 37240 615-343-2225 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: krjames@buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth R James Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria Comments: To: steve russell Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Vollmann: Incredible. I don't think it's possible to be a more=20 ambitious writer. How he manages to crank out the material he=20 does at such a clip is a mystery. Indeed, often I feel his reach=20 exceeds his grasp; I wish he'd slow down a little, take a=20 breather and think about what he's doing, find a really ruthless=20 editor, and get right back to work. I have the full seven-volume=20 version of his meditation on violence and I can't wait for the=20 next "Seven Dreams" volume to come out. -- KJ On Wed Feb 13 23:46 , steve russell sent: >How many people on the list are familiar with William Vollmann?=20 I had him sign a bunch of books recently. He's a monster.=20 Greatness. I saw and heard GREATNESS. > >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >--------------------------------- >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!=20 Mobile. Try it now. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:21:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria In-Reply-To: <797099.22079.qm@web52405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very fine writer. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of steve russell Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:46 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria How many people on the list are familiar with William Vollmann? I had him sign a bunch of books recently. He's a monster. Greatness. I saw and heard GREATNESS. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:42:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Corrected Date for Marsh Hawk Press Poets Reading at The Living Theatre Comments: To: slurp@mailbucket.org, staff@poems.com Comments: cc: Edward Myers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 I sent the WRONG DATE. I'M TERRIBLY SORRY! =20 The correct date is FEBRUARY 25TH. Please see below. =20 =20 An Evening of Marsh Hawk Press Poetry Readings by =20 Jane Augustine, Burt Kimmelman, Sandy McIntosh, Stephen Paul Miller, and Rochelle Ratner. =20 Hosted by Dorothy Friedman =20 February 25, 2008 =20 8 to 10 PM =20 The Living Theater 21 Clinton Street (between Stanton and Houston Streets) New York City=20 One flight down =20 212 792 8050=20 contact@livingtheatre.org =20 http://www.livingtheatre.org/livingpoetry.html and http://www.livingtheatre.org/ =20 =20 Directions: 21 Clinton Street, New York City Houston Street Bus M21 Avenue B bus M9 Subway: F train to "2nd Avenue" (exit front of train on 1st Ave; walk east along Houston) or F train to "Delancey Street" Admission Free =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:02:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: more collages on Camille Martin's website In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've added a couple of pages of collages to my website: "Collages 5" and "Ransom notes." I hope you enjoy them! Camille http://www.camillemartin.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:07:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: Fwd: Poetry vs. Prose in the Presidential Campaign? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hilarious article. My main man, Harold, calls Jimmy Carter the worst poet in the United States. Poor Jimmy. Maybe he'll stop writing that drek someday. David Chirot wrote: This includes Harold Bloom on Barak Obama's two poetic Juvenulia http://poetry.about.com/b/2008/02/14/poetry-vs-prose-in-the-presidential-campaign.htm--- --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:22:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Allegrezza Subject: Series A--reading in Chicago this Tuesday. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline SERIES A--Come hear Betsy Wheeler and Joshua Marie Wilkinson read this coming Tuesday! Series A is dedicated to experimental writing. This session features Betsy Wheeler and Joshua Marie Wilkinson. Tue 2/19, 7 PM, Hyde Park Art Center, 5020 S. Cornell, Chicago, IL 773-324-5520 BYOB. For more information, see www.moriapoetry.com/seriesa.html. Originally from the Upper Mississippi River Valley, Betsy Wheeler studied poetry and the art of the book at the University of Wisconsin, LaCrosse where she was a Maple House Fellow for Sutton Hoo Press. She received her MFA in poetry from The Ohio State University in 2005, then lived, worked, and wrote as the Stadler Fellow at Bucknell University's Stadler Center for Poetry from 2005-2007. Her poems have recently appeared in *MiPOesias, Pebble Lake Review, Forklift Ohio, Ping Pong*, and *Absent*. Her chapbook, *Start Here*, is available from Small Anchor Press. Co-editor of Pilot and Pilot Books, she lives in Northampton, Massachusetts where she works for Wondertime magazine. Joshua Marie Wilkinson was born and raised in Seattle and has since lived in Arizona, Ireland, Slovakia, and Colorado. He is the author of three books, and two more which are forthcoming next year: *The Book of Whispering in the Projection Booth* from Tupelo and an anthology of younger poets in conversation with their mentors from University of Iowa Press. His film about the Chicago-based band Califone is nearly complete, and he teaches creative writing and literature at Loyola University. Bill Allegrezza ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:35:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Hennessey Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria In-Reply-To: <12636.1203005889@buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree: Vollmann's talents are as prolific as his subject matter is raw, yet elegantly rendered. My personal favorite is *The Atlas*, which consists of twenty-six matched pairs of stories (many of which are comprised of various journalistic fragments and Kawabata-esque reductions of his other novels, originating from scattered geographic locations) which come before and after the keystone story (practically a novella), "The Atlas" -- all of this framed by chapters titled "Opening the Book" and "Closing the Book." It's perhaps the finest example of Vollmann's use of structuring conceits to spur his creative output, though *The Rainbow Stories*, which writes to the colors of the visible spectrum, and *13 Stories and 13 Epitaphs* work similarly. In regards to his tremendous output: I asked him about this when he did a reading in Philadelphia a few years back, wondering how one can manage to be so engaged in the world, and simultaneously find time to step away from it long enough to write about it. Apparently, his strength is a sound and rigorous daily writing habit. As he explained (I paraphrase here), "I'll have folks over at my house, have a nice meal, enjoy our conversation, but there comes a point where I say, 'you're welcome to stay and make yourselves at home, drink my liquor and so forth, but I'm going upstairs to write.'" This seems to have long been his practice, since legend has him sleeping under his desk at work while writing *An Afghanistan Picture Show* in the mid-80s (spending his evenings composing the book on the office's computers), and even more incredibly, he writes everything longhand since his obsessive typing eventually led to serious carpel-tunnel syndrome. I also agree that a little more judicious editing might be in order. Sometime, the sheer scale of his works can be off-putting, and though, about five years ago, I was a fervent reader of his work, I can't bring myself to read any of the newer books. Moreover, I've always preferred the more contemporary/reportage works (including the aforementioned, plus *Butterfly Stories* and *Whores for Gloria*) to the historical fables. -mike- Michael S. Hennessey Managing Editor, PennSound http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/ On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Kenneth R James wrote: > Vollmann: Incredible. I don't think it's possible to be a more > ambitious writer. How he manages to crank out the material he > does at such a clip is a mystery. Indeed, often I feel his reach > exceeds his grasp; I wish he'd slow down a little, take a > breather and think about what he's doing, find a really ruthless > editor, and get right back to work. I have the full seven-volume > version of his meditation on violence and I can't wait for the > next "Seven Dreams" volume to come out. > > -- KJ > > > On Wed Feb 13 23:46 , steve russell sent: > > >How many people on the list are familiar with William Vollmann? > I had him sign a bunch of books recently. He's a monster. > Greatness. I saw and heard GREATNESS. > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > Mobile. Try it now. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:00:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yesterday -- February 13 -- I received notice from the MLA publications committee that it is putting out another volume on Pound. The email from MLA included a link to a survey -- asking the respondent how to teach Pound. I didn't even bother filling out the survey, because I teach Pound as an abomination, as the canonizing of hatred, as a case study of the power of consecration dynamics. In short, I teach Pound's very canonicity as an indictment of literature itself as a project of power. (The name of the proposed volume and its editor, as well as a link to the site, are at the bottom of this post). Also yesterday -- in 1946 -- February 13 -- Ezra Loomis Pound, who advocated killing "big kikes" in a "pogrom from the top" and said "it might be a good thing to hang Roosevelt and a few hundred yidds," was declared insane by a jury and sentenced to reside in St. Elizabeths Hospital. Two years later he would be awarded the first annual Bollingen Prize, on whose ten person panel T S Eliot served, who said of himself, "I have no objection to being called a bigot myself." The jury made this statement: "The fellows are aware that objections may be made to awarding a prize to a man situated as is Mr. Pound.... To permit other considerations than that of poetic achievement to sway the decision would destroy the significance of the award and would in principle deny the validity of that objective perception of value on which civilized society must rest." (quote from Sieburth's fulsome intro to /The Pisan Cantos/) Jed Rasula writes, "What was crucial was the preservation of the administrative security system that had assumed custodial control of poetry (not just Pound's poetry)...." (APWM, 114) I call Sieburth's introduction to /The Pisan Cantos/ "fulsome" because of his elision and effacement of Pound's racism: the rhetoric of Sieburth's intro to /The Pisan Cantos/ is unconscionably apologetic about Pound's racism (toward both African-Americans and Jews, and the intro basically COMPLETELY elides the horror of Pound's anti-semitism and his anti-Slavism to boot). The furthest Sieburth goes in his introduction is to say Pound had "conflicted attitudes to race" and that he is "insouciantly condescending" in his use of racial hate speech and that Pound's views "might have been" "paternalistic." That's just from one page -- xxi -- of Sieburth's intro. Sieburth's introduction on the point of race does not even mention Pound's advocating systematic pograms. Please note: This post is not critical of Rasula. The valence of my post is this: It states a beef with Sieburth and the culture industry that has canonized a writer like Pound -- doing so essentially via the same legitimations outlined in the statement I quote from the Bollingen Prize committee -- a statement now 52 years old. Rasula is quoted here not to be critical of Rasula but to underscore (a) what the Bollingen Prize committee's statement was really about (control of the dynamics of consecration at the cost of effacing Pound as a poet of hatred), and (b) that essentially Pound's continued canonicity is not about Pound per se (because Pound = Anti-Semitism, Pound = Hate) but about the exercise of consecration itself. If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object is clearly irrelevant. Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do. _Approaches to Teaching Ezra Pound’s Poetry and Prose_, edited by Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos. "We ask, first, that you respond to a brief questionnaire available on the MLA Web site at www.mla.org/approaches" Gabe -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:21:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Clements Subject: Selling Papers/Archives to Libraries In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I wonder if anyone has any advice on where to get information or guidance on negotiating the purchase of personal papers with university libraries? I'm trying to help out a well-known, widely published poet who has about sixty years worth of papers, drafts, correspondence, artwork, etc. archived but has no idea how to go about organizing the materials, contacting libraries, or negotiating the sales (not to mention reasonable rates for this sort of thing). Neither do I. The poet is not affiliated with a university. Are there people who broker this sort of thing? Any guidance or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brian Firewheel Editions/Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics Box 7 181 White St. Western Connecticut State University Danbury, CT 06810 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:03:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria In-Reply-To: <5e93e4440802140814n6124eec8gbe5eb97d284267ad@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Vollmann/Acker. I can see that. Great writers, poets, are noted for their excess. Think of Faulkner. Or Pound. John Berryman. Joyce or Samuel Beckett. Vollmann, I think, is in the big leagues. He's the anti Updike. No suburban comedy of manners for Mr. W V. Lisa Samuels wrote: Vollmann has done fabulous raw and complex writing - I got hooked with the (alas unfinished) Seven Dream series, though I haven't liked as well the long books he's done since he stopped trying to finish that novel series. Certainly Whores for Gloria and Butterfly Stories and some of 13 Stories and 13 Epitaphs are intensely effective short works in abjection, longing, the eviscerating world. I often think of him in the same vein as Kathy Acker: the exposed self in the exposed world: to paraphrase Acker: 'nowadays I can write any way I want, because nobody gives a shit about writing and ideas; all anyone cares about is money.' Vollmann has a grip on the kinds of brutally creative, totally smart, literarily attuned (even as defiant), world-and-flesh-devouring broken writing that motivated Acker, I think. A happy find. Lisa On 2/13/08, steve russell wrote: > > How many people on the list are familiar with William Vollmann? I had him > sign a bunch of books recently. He's a monster. Greatness. I saw and heard > GREATNESS. > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:47:24 -0400 Reply-To: david@badnoiseproductions.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Applegate Subject: Craft question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit dear U.B. Poetics, I have a D.I.Y. publishing question & thought this might be an appropriate forum to ask for advice. I'm looking for some 8.5" x 11" paper which can be run through a standard copy machine. I'd like it to be of higher quality than your run-of-the-mill copy paper but cheaper than "artist quality" inkjet paper (which appears to be manufactured mostly for art prints rather than poetry, anyway...) Has anyone had experience with different kinds of paper? Any recommendations and all advice welcome. Feel free to send e-mail to david@badnoiseproductions.com as this topic may not be of interest to everyone... Thanks in advance, David Applegate www.badnoiseproductions.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:05:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jilly Dybka Subject: Re: Catherine Wagner at Vanderbilt University In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Do you know if this is open to the public? I tried that number & got a voicemail. Thanks Jilly On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > Vanderbilt Writing Studio Presents: > > On Writing, with Catherine Wagner > > Friday, February 15 > 4:30-6:00 pm > Alumni Hall 117 > > On Writing is a series of conversations with faculty and other > advanced writers at Vanderbilt about their writing practices. > Conversations examine writers' eccentricities and the ways in which a > given writer generates ideas, cultivates a style, and responds to > various writing situations. > > Catherine Wagner is the author of two books of poems, Miss America > and Macular Hole, and co-editor of Not for Mothers Only: Contemporary > Poems on Child-Getting and Child-Rearing (all from Fence Books). She > is the winner of the Ruth Lilly Prize and was a Teaching-Writing > Fellow at the Iowa Writers Workshop. A native of Baltimore, Maryland, > she is currently an Assistant Professor of English at Miami > University in Oxford, Ohio. > > Reception to follow. > > Writing Studio > Vanderbilt University > 117 Alumni Hall > Nashville, TN 37240 > 615-343-2225 > -- Jilly Dybka, WA4CZD jilly9@gmail.com Ron Paul 2008 - TN 7th District Leader Blog: http://www.poetryhut.com/wordpress/ Jazz: http://cdbaby.com/cd/dybka Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:29:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria In-Reply-To: <797099.22079.qm@web52405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Bill's a great writer indeed, and an excellent friend. Spent time =20 together in Berlin as he was finishing "Europe Central" =96 an excellent = =20 book. And the stories he tells are as good as those he writes. =96 = Pierre On Feb 13, 2008, at 11:46 PM, steve russell wrote: > How many people on the list are familiar with William Vollmann? I =20 > had him sign a bunch of books recently. He's a monster. Greatness. I =20= > saw and heard GREATNESS. > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. =20= > Try it now. ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:30:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project February In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, We have three great events planned for next week. Maybe we=B9ll see you here? Monday, February 18, 8 PM Erik Anderson & Selah Saterstrom Erik Anderson=B9s poems and reviews have appeared or are forthcoming in American Letters & Commentary, Sleeping Fish, Jacket, Rain Taxi, Marginalia= , CAB/NET, The Poetry Project Newsletter, Cranky, Bombay Gin, and others. A contributing poetry editor at the Denver Quarterly, he also edits, with Ann= e Waldman, the mail-art magazine Thuggery & Grace. He is a graduate of the Jack Kerouac School at Naropa University and is currently a PhD candidate a= t the University of Denver. An excerpt from his land-art project, The Poetics of Trespass, is available at parceljournal.org. Selah Saterstrom is the author of The Meat and Spirit Plan and The Pink Institution [both published by Coffee House Press]. Her work can be found in Bombay Gin, Not Enough Night, Tarpaulin Sky, and other places. She co-curates SLAB PROJECTS, an artist/writer-curator initiative concerned with exploring the gaps between decay and reconstruction in ruined or abandoned landscapes. She teaches in the creative writing program at the University of Denver and in the Naropa Summer Writing Program. Wednesday, February 20, 8 PM Alison Knowles & Jerome Rothenberg In the sixties Alison Knowles created Notations, a book with John Cage, and Coeurs Volants with Marcel Duchamp, both produced with the Something Else Press. With Fluxus she made The Bean Rolls, a canned book that appeared in the Whitney's "The American Century" (2000). The Big Book (1967) followed, = a walk-in book with 8-foot pages, as well as The House of Dust. This was the first computerized poetry on record, winning her a Guggenheim fellowship. I= n 2001, she performed and exhibited her new paper / sound works at the Drawin= g Center in New York. She will perform Giant Bean Turner, which combines two of her favorite materials (beans and flax paper), at the Guggenheim in 2009= . She will be performing with Joshua Selman and Jessica Higgins. Poet, translator, anthologist and founding figure of ethnopoetics. Jerome Rothenberg is the author of over seventy books of poetry including Poems fo= r the Game of Silence, A Seneca Journal, That Dada Strain, A Paradise of Poet= s and Pref-faces & Other Writings. New Directions has recently published Triptych which presents his three long series poems in one volume: Poland/1931, Khurbn, and The Burning Babe. Describing his poetry career as "an ongoing attempt to reinterpret the poetic past from the point of view o= f the present," he has edited seven major assemblages of traditional and contemporary poetry and four important poetry magazines. Rothenberg has bee= n the recipient of many honors, including an American Book Award, two PEN Oakland Josephine Miles Literary Awards, and two PEN Center USA West Translation Awards. In 2001 he was elected to the World Academy of Poetry (UNESCO). Friday, February 22, 10 PM Landis Everson Memorial Please join us as we pay tribute to the life and poetry of Landis Everson. Readers will include Bill Berkson, Bill Corbett, John Hennessy, Matthew Henriksen, Katia Kapovich, Mark Lamoureux, Ben Mazer, Stephen Sturgeon, Jason Zuzga, Mark Schorr, Brian Henry, Ethan Nosowsky, Stacy Szymaszek and Andrew Zawacki. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:22:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Dickey Subject: publishing translations of German In-Reply-To: <20070506032919.66708.qmail@web32911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Before I launch into my own research for a publisher, I thought I would ask y'all. I have an English translation of a very contemporary German poet's ninth book. It's a language driven collection with elements of form and meter. Could anybody recommend a US publisher? Othewise, I will consult ALTA and Writer's Market. Thank you. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:12:45 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mez breeze Subject: Re: Ouch! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Also c: http://netwurker.livejournal.com On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Gary Sullivan wrote: > See: > > http://garysullivan.blogspot.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we > give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join -- : mmo.[s]tabbings.ripple+sh[ape.avian.l]ift : : http://netwurker.livejournal.com : http://disapposable.blogspot.com/ : http://twitter.com/netwurker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:28:11 -0800 Reply-To: layne@whiteowlweb.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Subject: Re: self-publishing (review journal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like it. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: steve d. dalachinsky=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:11 AM Subject: Re: self-publishing (review journal) hey we can review our own self published works a new form of chronie criticism On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:15:37 -0600 Charlie Rossiter writes: > Christophe >=20 > It seems you have hit upon a niche that it's worth taking a go at. >=20 > I think it will need some kind of frame for credibility--e.g. so I=20 > don't > have my mother send in the review and say I'm the next Whitman,=20 > maybe you > assign reviews. Maybe each review includes a sample poem. I don't=20 > know.=20 > Something to think about. >=20 > Charlie >=20 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:30:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gfrym@EARTHLINK.NET Subject: Re: Selling Papers/Archives to Libraries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, there are many archive brokers. Backchannel me. I have several suggestions. Gloria ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Clements" To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:21 AM Subject: Selling Papers/Archives to Libraries >I wonder if anyone has any advice on where to get information or guidance > on negotiating the purchase of personal papers with university libraries? > I'm trying to help out a well-known, widely published poet who has about > sixty years worth of papers, drafts, correspondence, artwork, etc. > archived but has no idea how to go about organizing the materials, > contacting libraries, or negotiating the sales (not to mention reasonable > rates for this sort of thing). Neither do I. The poet is not affiliated > with a university. Are there people who broker this sort of thing? Any > guidance or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Brian > > Firewheel Editions/Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics > Box 7 > 181 White St. > Western Connecticut State University > Danbury, CT 06810 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:04:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria In-Reply-To: <952BC235-3699-47AF-AC21-55DFA5944CFF@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit he signed "Europe Central" for me and drew a cool cartoon. During the Q & A period, I asked him if he'd ever settle down in suburbia and write witty, domestic novels of manners. He said no. I got a few laughs, but really, I couldn't frame my more serious question, couldn't be concise, so I ended up being myself, a wise ass. Vollman didn't mind. Pierre Joris wrote: Bill's a great writer indeed, and an excellent friend. Spent time together in Berlin as he was finishing "Europe Central" – an excellent book. And the stories he tells are as good as those he writes. – Pierre On Feb 13, 2008, at 11:46 PM, steve russell wrote: > How many people on the list are familiar with William Vollmann? I > had him sign a bunch of books recently. He's a monster. Greatness. I > saw and heard GREATNESS. > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:22:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Happy Valentine's Day! Drunken Boat announces Issue#9! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 Announcing the premiere of Drunken Boat, the international online = journal of the arts, Issue #9, Winter 2007/2008. A triple issue = dedicated to Part 2 of the inaugural PanLiterary Awards Winners in seven = genres; a folio on contemporary Poetics; and a two-part dossier on = Mis/Translation.=20 =20 Featuring over 150 contributors, including poems by Meena Alexander, Ron = Padgett and Dennis Nurkse, essays by Cole Swenson, Steven Burt and Okey = Ndibe, translations by Marilyn Hacker, Paul Hoover, and Afaa Michael = Weaver, translations of Mahmoud Darwish and Yu Jian, photos by Harlan = Erskine, web art by Mark Marino, sound by Gordon Monahan, video by David = Bernard Ambrose, Laird Hunt's interview with Oliver Rohe, among many, = many other works.=20 Including Drunken Boat's Poetics folio, which includes forty = contemporary poets and ten non-poets writing essays on a group of the = poems. Drunken Boat's rejoinder to Dana Gioia's "Can Poetry Matter?" = cedes some fascinating results, from zeal to apathy to out-and-out = animosity.=20 See also Part one of a Two Part series on Mis/Translation, featuring all = variety of straight and vexed translations, from magpie steals to = computational appropriations, from transinhalations to homophonic = recreations. The second part of this feature will be released in about = two months time.=20 Please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Drunken Boat to = help keep the arts alive online: =20 http://drunkenboat.com/db9/donate.html =20 Drunken Boat always has been and continues to be for lovers! Enjoy the = issue and let us know what you think. =20 -The Editors http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 ***************=20 Ravi Shankar=20 Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 Poet-in-Residence=20 Associate Professor=20 CCSU - English Dept.=20 860-832-2766=20 shankarr@ccsu.edu=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:15:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: WHAT IS A WORD / Kocik under Wall Street / THE PERINEUM / February 13, 17, 24 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable BUILDING A PERINEUM The Lower Manhattan Cultural Council has granted us (Daria Fain and Robert Kocik) a workspace in which to continue our prosodic research. We will be using the space to design a building based on prosody. Some aspects of this residency will be public. For example, we=B9ve built a rudimentary anechoic darkroom. From 2/13 to 2/24, anyone can reserve time in this room. Suggested uses include: darkroom retreat, tracing the origins of language, wakeful hibernation, hypometabolic attention, swinging open the door of life and death. I call the darkroom a 'perineum' not only because it has been built in a basement bank vault=8Bbut because the perineum (in the subtle body) is the still point and the point of entry for words, and thus the basis of a building based on prosody. Tuesday February 12: we are having an opening from 6pm-8pm. We will be on hand to speak about darkroom, perineal practice and prosodic architecture. Sunday, February 17: I will discuss WHAT IS A WORD--the 4 stages of speech and the cosmogony of phonemic emanation in nondual Kashmiri philosophy (particularly the writings of Abhinavagupta) as example of =8Cword=B9 at its fullest)=8Bin contrast to English, psychoanalysis (especially Lacan=B9s parole pleine) and the neurocentric problem-of- origins in contemporary linguistics (is language acquired or hardwired?). The talk will start at 3pm. The space will be open as a public reading room, with relevant reading materials provided, from 10am on. Thursday, February 21: the above event will be repeated. The space will serve as public reading room starting at 10am. The talk will start at 6:30pm. Sunday February 24: we will orchestrate ALL AT ONCE=8Ba voicing of all the phonemes, using permutations such as exhaustion, resorption, forced, unforced, vocalic, consonantal, unstruck, etc. R. Steiner wrote: =B3The entire universe is expressed when the alphabet is repeated from beginning to end.=B2 Even better (nonlinearly, atemporally)=8Bin nondual Kashmiri linguistics the phonemes are energies, awarenesses, atoms, that give rise to the objective world. Sound-sum, buzz-bundle, heard at once to see what it does. (I=B9m also in need of volunteers for the phoneme choir. English employs 40 phonemes!) Lastly=8BI=B9d very much like to meet with anyone who=B9d like to talk about designing a building that meets the needs of poets.(To my knowledge, there is not a structure on the planet designed specifically for full realization of poetry.) The address is 14 Wall Street. LMCC Swing Space, level B. Due to security, all visits require appointment. My cell: 718 503 4246. Yours, Robert. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 23:17:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <47B481AA.2020909@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This really sounds like a great way to teach Pound, and a great course. Along with Pound, do you teach state-supported Soviet writers too? Is the fact that Mien Kampf remains on shelves a sign of a hidden cult of Hitler? I'm not sure I would equate the "reading of" with a "sympathy with" or an "admiration of." I somehow take issue with the idea that literature is an exhaust duct of power, a way to detour and jettison guilty feelings from feeble head of state. Certainly not all literature --and definitely not all writing-- falls into this category. What do we look for in deciding this? -Ryan On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Yesterday -- February 13 -- I received notice from the MLA publications > committee that it is putting out another volume on Pound. The email from > MLA included a link to a survey -- asking the respondent how to teach > Pound. > > I didn't even bother filling out the survey, because I teach Pound as an > abomination, as the canonizing of hatred, as a case study of the power > of consecration dynamics. In short, I teach Pound's very canonicity as > an indictment of literature itself as a project of power. (The name of > the proposed volume and its editor, as well as a link to the site, are > at the bottom of this post). > > Also yesterday -- in 1946 -- February 13 -- Ezra Loomis Pound, who > advocated killing "big kikes" in a "pogrom from the top" and said "it > might be a good thing to hang Roosevelt and a few hundred yidds," was > declared insane by a jury and sentenced to reside in St. Elizabeths > Hospital. > > Two years later he would be awarded the first annual Bollingen Prize, on > whose ten person panel T S Eliot served, who said of himself, "I have no > objection to being called a bigot myself." > > The jury made this statement: "The fellows are aware that objections may > be made to awarding a prize to a man situated as is Mr. Pound.... To > permit other considerations than that of poetic achievement to sway the > decision would destroy the significance of the award and would in > principle deny the validity of that objective perception of value on > which civilized society must rest." (quote from Sieburth's fulsome intro > to /The Pisan Cantos/) > > Jed Rasula writes, "What was crucial was the preservation of the > administrative security system that had assumed custodial control of > poetry (not just Pound's poetry)...." (APWM, 114) > > I call Sieburth's introduction to /The Pisan Cantos/ "fulsome" because > of his elision and effacement of Pound's racism: the rhetoric of > Sieburth's intro to /The Pisan Cantos/ is unconscionably apologetic > about Pound's racism (toward both African-Americans and Jews, and the > intro basically COMPLETELY elides the horror of Pound's anti-semitism > and his anti-Slavism to boot). > > The furthest Sieburth goes in his introduction is to say Pound had > "conflicted attitudes to race" and that he is "insouciantly > condescending" in his use of racial hate speech and that Pound's views > "might have been" "paternalistic." That's just from one page -- xxi -- > of Sieburth's intro. Sieburth's introduction on the point of race does > not even mention Pound's advocating systematic pograms. > > Please note: This post is not critical of Rasula. The valence of my post > is this: It states a beef with Sieburth and the culture industry that > has canonized a writer like Pound -- doing so essentially via the same > legitimations outlined in the statement I quote from the Bollingen Prize > committee -- a statement now 52 years old. > > Rasula is quoted here not to be critical of Rasula but to underscore (a) > what the Bollingen Prize committee's statement was really about (control > of the dynamics of consecration at the cost of effacing Pound as a poet > of hatred), and (b) that essentially Pound's continued canonicity is not > about Pound per se (because Pound = Anti-Semitism, Pound = Hate) but > about the exercise of consecration itself. > > If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object > is clearly irrelevant. > > Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the > muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his > introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do. > > _Approaches to Teaching Ezra Pound's Poetry and Prose_, edited by > Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos. "We ask, first, that you respond to a brief > questionnaire available on the MLA Web site at www.mla.org/approaches" > > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:49:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Inhering characteristics of matter, let us say substance. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Inhering characteristics of matter, let us say substance. Let us say substance without differentiation, by which we mean, cohering matter, the phenomenology of the _same_ without transitivity (as in for example Irigaray). One is always lost in the same. At the limit, one might consider the same a manifold without geodesics, striations, closed upon itself, windowless, sightless, catatonic. But this is only a limit, never found, incapable of seeing or being-seen; it is the limit of death, the maw that absorbs us all. Now to open it up a bit: "RECAPITULATION. -- The common or essential properties of bodies are, Im- penetrability, Extension, Figure, Divisibility, Inertia, and Attraction. Attraction is of several kinds, viz. attraction of Cohesion, attraction of Gravitation, Capillary attraction, Chemical attraction, Magnetic attraction, and Electrical attraction. The peculiar properties of bodies are, Density, Rarity, Hardness, Elastic- ity, Brittleness, Malleability, Ductility, and Tenacity." (J L Comstock, A System of Natural Philosophy, 1854 and earlier.) Electrical attraction is of one or two kinds, positive or negative, aus- tral or boreal. It is an inhering fluid which gathers, puckers, expends. Shape comes: "FIGURE OR FORM _is the result of extension, for we can not conceive that a body has length and breadth, without its also having some kind of figure, however irregular._" Fractals come: "Some solids are so irregular, that they cannot be compared with any mathematical figure. This is the case with the fragments of a broken rock, chips of wood, fractured glass, &c.; these are called _amorphous._" Inversion comes: "A single grain of musk will scent a room for years, and still lose no appreciable part of its weight. Here, the particles of musk must be floating in the air of every part of the room; otherwise they could not be every where perceived." What parts of the whole subtend figure, location, differentiation from the other? Attraction might be said to construct the other, the other's construction of the self, both and neither, imaginary, chimera. Gravitational attrac- tion is like to like; magnetic and electrical like to anti-like, but of the otherwise same; capillary, specific like to specific other, of which both adhere to their essential characters; chemical, unary or mutual transformation of specific like to specific other; and cohesion, like to like or like to specific other. The peculiar properties inhere. "RARITY. -- This is the quality opposite to density, and means that the substance to which it is applied is porous, and light. Thus air, water, and ether, are rare substances, while gold, lead, and platina, are dense bodies." Today this is in fact density, and a peculiar property in general might be considered that which is related to the atomic or molecular constitution of matter, or rather the particle constitution of matter, hence for example the neutron star, or rather the constituating configuration of matter, hence for example the black hole, or rather nearly decomposable phenomena, hence possibly dark matter or strings, or whatever preserves at least the very weakest of phenomenologi- cal structures in the true world and its descriptive messay/anysign. From William Peck's Introductory Course of Natural Philosophy for the Use of Schools and Academies, edited from Ganot's Popular Physics, 1873: "Physics is that branch of Natural Philosophy which treats of the general properties of bodies, and of the causes that modify these properties. The principle causes that modify the properties of bodies are: _Gravita- tion, Heat, Light, Magnetism,_ and _Electricity._ These causes are called _Physical Agents._" There are solid and fluid bodies. Bodies have mass and density. The gener- al properties of bodies include Magnitude, Form, Impenetrability, Inertia, Porosity, Divisibility, Compressibility, Dilatability, and Elasticity. Be- yond Gravity, there are molecular forces which include Cohesion, Adhesion, Capillary Forces, Absorption, Imbibition ("the absorption of a liquid by a solid body"), Tenacity, Hardness, Ductility, and Malleability. The book, "Peck's Ganot," is based on Ganot's elementary version of his Traite Elementaire de Physique; I have the 3rd 1854 edition. Here, physi- cal agents are as follows: "l'attraction universelle, le calorique, la lumiere, le magnetisme et l'electricite." Under general properties of bodies: "l'impenetrabilite, l'etendue, la divisibilite, la porosite, la compressibilite, l'elasticite, la mobilite, et l'inertie." Particular properties are those observed in certain bodies or certain states of bod- ies, such as solidity, fluidity, tenacity, ductility, malleability, hard- ness, transparency, and coloration; there is density, weight, various forms of elasticity, etc. Heat, steam, hydraulics, magnetism, electricity, fluids, gas: the world is in flux, numerous solids are porous, some transparent to magnetism, x-rays and other out of directly perceivable bandwidth radiations and receptors - all challenge the muteness of amphiboles, some absorb others, some gener- ate others, some construct others as problematic, some are coherent, some inhere, some leak into Freud's hydraulic model, some are id-messy or libido-messy. As I have pointed out, electrical fluid inhabits the spherical; the point, punctum, drains it. Harboring matter is puckered, withdrawn. The fluid seeps off in due time. It can be gathered in leyden jars, spewed from voltaic piles (dynamic or galvanic electricity), generated from machines (Wimhurst, von Guericke, etc.) with glass disks or cylinders or small furnaces and stem or cat fur, pith, resin, tin foil (see the electrophor- ous). It is social, the subject of "electrical recreations" led by men for young women holding hands, sparking one another, hair stood on end, short- circuiting jars and condensers. It's the men who electrocute dogs and birds, test the apparatus against the limits of life and death. It's the pith-man and pith-woman who jump up and down in funny embrace in a small electrostatic entertainment. It's the woman who demonstrates the magnetic swan to a small boy. There's ectoplasm, outside the ken of these books, these models, as are all sorts of spirits. Still, Peck/Ganot states right at the beginning: "The Universe may be regarded as made up of _mind_ and _matter._ MIND is that which thinks and wills; MATTER is that of which we become cognizant through the medium of the senses. Science admits of two corresponding divisions, _Science of Mind,_ or METAPHYSICS, and _Science of Matter,_ or NATURAL PHILOSOPHY." Three simple points from all of this: Much coheres, inheres, to matter; some of what coheres or inheres is in problematic relation with an other (general or specific); and much of these relatively early dialogs empha- size a simplicity of fluidic substance and magnetic/electromagnetic experimentation. While the science and technical characterization of the world is clearly outmoded, the _phenomenology_ emphasizing a blurring of static and dynamic, force and presence, circuit and stasis, state and operator, and self and other, is rather sophisticated and uncannily resonates with the messy and problematic distinctions among analogic and digital/discrete domains, emanent and organic life, and real and virtual as well as sign and anysign, all within the true world. We can't stop now; we're just beginning to understand that the question isn't how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin - the question is, how many angels are in it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:33:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: TEXT LOSES TIME:Book Launch:Feb 23rd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TEXT LOSES TIME by Nico Vassilakis =20 Book Launch & Readings =20 Feb 23rd - 7:30pm =20 with Crag Hill, Torben Ulrich, Doug Nufer, and others =20 McLeod Residence2209 2nd Avenue Seattle, Washington 98121 =20 if you can't make it and you'd like to get a copy: http://www.lulu.com/content/1233754 =20 = ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 01:58:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: publishing translations of German MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try ugkly duckling they like to do translations tho mostly eastern euro and russia On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:22:43 -0800 Eric Dickey writes: > Before I launch into my own research for a publisher, I thought I > would ask y'all. > > I have an English translation of a very contemporary German poet's > ninth book. It's a language driven collection with elements of form > and meter. > > Could anybody recommend a US publisher? > > Othewise, I will consult ALTA and Writer's Market. > > Thank you. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:01:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Happy Valentine's Day! Drunken Boat announces Issue#9! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit geez i thought that drunk boat sunk it's been such a long time wasn't i supposed to be part of that somewhere? On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:22:38 -0500 "Shankar, Ravi (English)" writes: > http://www.drunkenboat.com > > Announcing the premiere of Drunken Boat, the international online > journal of the arts, Issue #9, Winter 2007/2008. A triple issue > dedicated to Part 2 of the inaugural PanLiterary Awards Winners in > seven genres; a folio on contemporary Poetics; and a two-part > dossier on Mis/Translation. > > Featuring over 150 contributors, including poems by Meena Alexander, > Ron Padgett and Dennis Nurkse, essays by Cole Swenson, Steven Burt > and Okey Ndibe, translations by Marilyn Hacker, Paul Hoover, and > Afaa Michael Weaver, translations of Mahmoud Darwish and Yu Jian, > photos by Harlan Erskine, web art by Mark Marino, sound by Gordon > Monahan, video by David Bernard Ambrose, Laird Hunt's interview with > Oliver Rohe, among many, many other works. > > Including Drunken Boat's Poetics folio, which includes forty > contemporary poets and ten non-poets writing essays on a group of > the poems. Drunken Boat's rejoinder to Dana Gioia's "Can Poetry > Matter?" cedes some fascinating results, from zeal to apathy to > out-and-out animosity. > > See also Part one of a Two Part series on Mis/Translation, featuring > all variety of straight and vexed translations, from magpie steals > to computational appropriations, from transinhalations to homophonic > recreations. The second part of this feature will be released in > about two months time. > > Please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Drunken Boat > to help keep the arts alive online: > > http://drunkenboat.com/db9/donate.html > > Drunken Boat always has been and continues to be for lovers! Enjoy > the issue and let us know what you think. > > -The Editors > http://www.drunkenboat.com > > > *************** > Ravi Shankar > Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com > Poet-in-Residence > Associate Professor > CCSU - English Dept. > 2-2766 > shankarr@ccsu.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:18:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: New Beard of Bees Chapbook Redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for the previous garble. Beard of Bees is pleased to present A Different Bother by Gregory Fraser. Find it here: http://www.beardofbees.com/fraser.html Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:44:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: WACK!: Art and the Feminist Revolution - Art - Review - New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/arts/design/15wack.html --- there's a good book/catalog of the show also ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Barbieo Barros Gizzi's BLUE NOTE, on Craig Watson's TRUE NEWS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline One of my favorite books of all time is TRUE NEWS. Watson's poems have a distinctive clarity only the most attentive animal among us will divulge after a long supper of the senses at the bus station, or wherever the hell it is he manages to think us, rethink us. And sometimes I say, "How nice of him to do that for us," as though he did it for us. I'd like to think he did it for us, and there is a tender quality to the rock candy in my mouth, also, and why not believe it is my point? IMPOSSIBLE beauty in an IMPOSSIBLE world is what I think sometimes when reading this book! And once in a while I think FUCK HIM THAT'S NOT TRUE! OR NEWS! But later I think, maybe it is, maybe it is. Barbieo Barros Gizzi's BLUE NOTE collage is the cover, making the whole book one terrific and spellbinding THRILL! Have you seen this book's cover? Here's a link: http://www.instancepress.com/images/truenews.gif Not sure that thumb-sized portrait will do it for you, but you really should own the book anyway, because I said so. Do the collage and poems converse with one another? Am I asking myself out loud or pretending you are asking me? What's important for me has never been to ask that question. When I'm looking at BLUE NOTE (and literally doing so with a magnifying glass) the details bend me into a position of better GETTING just how continuous a juggling act our being here together, with all this other stuff of metal and fish and petals, or driving, or falling, over into it, is. The most mysterious, almost disturbing THING for me is in the upper right hand corner of the collage. A gold circle, some kind of mirror frame, or portal frame, with a blurred FACE(!?!) in it, possibly Mercury's? It's either Mercury or George Sand. It can't be anyone other than Mercury or George Sand. Well, possibly it's Klaus Nomi wearing headphones. Maybe. It makes me want to write a poem called MAYBE, this gold framed portal into Mecury-Sand-Nomi. Thank you Barbieo Barros Gizzi for bringing these three genius giants of Olympus together! Who needs a poem? A thank you is good. INSTANCE PRESS needs to amp up their site a bit though, let us know more about this book. It's one of the best books of poetry ever, and everyone should BUY IT, or shoplift it, or make someone buy it for them for Presidents' Day. TRUE NEWS: http://www.instancepress.com/watson.htm When I blink away from the 2008 presidential campaign, in pain, wanting to explode, understanding how we have been wedged deep DEEP into the idea of ONLY EVER AGAIN NEEDING two parties (because they're so great!), Watson's book TRUE NEWS rings true: "Later architects will build a new world in which history is devoid of change." An old friend who has bought the idea of total destruction of us all by 2012 keeps sending me the stupidest e-mails that seem to want to make me end it all now, or something. I'm going to send him TRUE NEWS for Presidents' Day. DON'T TAKE ANY SHIT! At least not lying down. Stand at attention for your shit. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com "The cynicism that you have is not your real soul." --Yoko Ono ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:09:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Manson Subject: Re: Selling Papers/Archives to Libraries In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Brian, I have worked with a pre-appraisal archivist before, who has worked with a number of large collections and knows how to effectively organize personal libraries and archives. Please backchannel for contact information. Douglas Manson inksaudible@gmail.com On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Brian Clements wrote: > I wonder if anyone has any advice on where to get information or guidance > on negotiating the purchase of personal papers with university libraries? > I'm trying to help out a well-known, widely published poet who has about > sixty years worth of papers, drafts, correspondence, artwork, etc. > archived but has no idea how to go about organizing the materials, > contacting libraries, or negotiating the sales (not to mention reasonable > rates for this sort of thing). Neither do I. The poet is not affiliated > with a university. Are there people who broker this sort of thing? Any > guidance or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Brian > > Firewheel Editions/Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics > Box 7 > 181 White St. > Western Connecticut State University > Danbury, CT 06810 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Paul Pines in SF March 12th (at City Lights) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A March 12th 7 PM appearance at City Lights Books in San Francisco by Paul Pines to read from his new memoir, http://www.citylights.com/info/?fa=3Devent&event_id=3D266 About My Brother's Madness: This is the best wrestling match I have yet seen between Sigmund Freud and the Pills, or, between Story and Therapy, or between Greek myth and the Science of the Brain. - Andrei Codrescu In a market saturated with memoirs, many of them static and self-indulgent, "My Brother's Madness" by Paul Pines shines like a bright star and reads like a fast-paced novel. http://mentalhopenews.blogspot.com/2007/12/madness-chronicles-difficult- journey.html PAUL PINES grew up in Brooklyn around the corner from Ebbet's Field and passed the early 60's on the Lower East Side of New York. He shipped out as a merchant seaman, spending 65-66 in Vietnam, after which he supported himself driving a taxi and tending bar until he opened his own jazz club, The Tin Palace in 1970 on the corner of 2nd Street and Bowery. A cultural watering hole for the better part of the 70's, it hosted figures like Kurt Vonnegut, Martin Scorsese, Charles Mingus, Eddie Jefferson, Joan Mitchell (the painter) and Larry Rivers. http://www.paulpines.com/ =20 =20 =20 My Brother's Madness published by Curbstone Press My Brother's Madness is a gripping personal saga of a family striving to cope with mental illness. It is based on the author's relationship to his brother who had a mental breakdown in his late 40's. The book explores the unfolding of the intertwined lives of the brothers. Circumstances lead one brother from juvenile crime on the streets of Brooklyn to war-torn Vietnam, to a fast-track life as a Hollywood publicist and to owning and operating one of New York's most legendary jazz clubs, The Tin Palace, while his sibling falls into, and fights his way back from, a delusional psychosis. The fact that the humanity of the protagonist is never dwarfed by the illness, never reduced to a set of symptoms, gives a much needed perspective to the reality of a condition that is so often stereotyped. My Brother's Madness is part thriller, part an exploration that not only describes the causes, character, and journey of mental illness, but also makes sense of it. It is ultimately a story of our own humanity, and answers the question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" Growing up in New York City, Paul Pines is the author of six books of poetry, including his most recent Taxidancing (IKON). His novel, The Tin Angel , was a critical success. He currently lives in Glens Falls, NY, with his wife, Carol, and his daughter, Charlotte, where he teaches American Literature and Creative Writing at Adirondack Community College, practices psychotherapy at Glens Falls Hospital, and hosts the annual Lake George Jazz Weekend. For more information about Paul Pines, please visit his web site at www.paulpines.com =20 Sharon Finegold (Larry) SFINEGOLD@FINEGOLDLAWFIRM.COM =20 3320 Lakewood Ave. South Seattle, WA 98144=20 =20 206-722-1238 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:58:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: New Issue of Turntable & Blue Light Up Today [on behalf of Arielle Shirley Guy] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline From: Arielle Shirley Guy Hi everyone, I hope you had a wonderful Valentine's Day! This issue, filled to the gills with brilliant stuffs, dedicated to wonder and the magnificence of place features: Poetry by: Matina Stamatakis (New York)~ Logan Ryan Smith (San Francisco)~ Beth Lifson (Portland)~ Chris McCreary (Philadelphia)~ Paintings & Poetry by: Henry Denander (Stockholm)~ Artwork by: Bruce New (Kentucky)~ Claudio Parentela (Italy)~ Seldon Hunt (New York)~ My pieces on: Kris Waldherr's The Lover's Path Tarot (New York)~ Strange Attractor Journal, in the company of an interview with its editor, Mark Pilkington (UK)~ The Strange Beautiful, The Wonder of Home (Brooklyn)~ And last, but not ever, least: The Misanthrope's Guide to a Musical Valentine, by Duncan Harman (Glasgow)~ ~Thank you for reading!~ ~Submissions now open for October 31, 2008 issue! Arielle Shirley Guy Word One New York Turntable & Blue Light Magazine 358 7th Ave., No. 101 Brooklyn, NY 11215 (917) 903-0178 - cell (718) 788-5221 - land wordone-ny.com turntablebluelight.com Love's riddles are, that though thy heart depart, It stays at home, and thou with losing sav'st it: But we will have a way more liberal, Than changing hearts, to join them, so we shall Be one, and one another's all. from John Donne's Lovers' Infiniteness ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:52:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria In-Reply-To: <703201.11667.qm@web52402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline So odd this came up now, as I was just thinking about how it was time to go back to Vollman. Ron and I were voracious Vollman readers until about The Butterfly Stories, where a sameness seemed to encroach. Which is why I thought it might be time to dive back in. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:09:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Evan Munday Subject: Sitcom author David McGimpsey in LA - Feb. 22 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear Southern Californian friends, The very funny and acclaimed poet David McGimpsey will be in southern =20= California this coming week, reviewing sandwiches and reading from =20 his great new book, Sitcom, filled with sonnets about Suddenly Susan =20 and Shania Twain. FEBRUARY 22 - DAVID MCGIMPSEY IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA David McGimpsey, author of Sitcom, visits L.A. -- well, Santa Monica, =20= actually -- for an event at the Mudpuppy Reading Series. The featured =20= reading by the celebrated poet is followed by an open mic. The Mudpuppy Reading Series featuring David McGimpsey Friday, February 22, 2008 The Rapp Saloon, Hostelling International Bldg. 1436 2nd St. Santa Monica, CA 8:00 p.m. =91McGimpsey displays erudition, clever insights and a knack for the =20 wickedly funny wisecrack.=92 =96 The Washington Post =91[McGimpsey] finds the humanity hiding in the hilarity. This guy is =20= as funny as David Sedaris, and more inventive.=92 =96 The Ottawa Citizen 'It's poetry that should not work, but does, brilliantly. McGimpsey's =20= voice is so original and subversive that he is practically re-casting =20= the poetry mold, pushing the boundaries of literary acceptability, =20 and doing so without a hint of pretentiousness.' =96 Montreal Gazette 'A lot of poets are rediscovering traditional forms these days, but =20 few of them are having as much fun as Montreal writer David =20 McGimpsey ... If this book's not a Griffin prize finalist, then =20 future juries will have to be rigged to include more TV-watching =20 poets.' =96 Winnipeg Free Press Yours, Evan ------------------------------ Evan Munday Publicist Coach House Books 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 416.979.2217 evan@chbooks.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:54:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ryan, Thanks for your reply. I don't think I follow your point about /Mein Kampf/ and Pound. My post was about the dynamics of consecration. Literature's most homologous relation, sociologically, is religion. Both are based on belief and consecration politics, yet both insist their claims are anchored in truth and objectivity. My point is that the AG field, unfortunately, has a pretty bad track record here as well. Because the AG field is a fairly autonomous field of production, it's highly vested in affirming its own capacity to choose what it cathects as an object of fetish -- and it will do so even if it means disregarding normative ethical standards. Why? Because AG fields survive on symbolic capital over other kinds. In fact you could argue that AG fields will tend to exercise their power of consecration on precisely those works that defy normative social concerns. You could even argue that a committee committed to autonomous criteria ("aesthetic" criteria) will choose the most defiant and heinous candidate, or the most unlikely candidate, just to affirm its own power. If that means choosing a Pound, so be it. Further, critics will leap to enable that consecration, whether a Hugh Kenner, a Carroll Terrell, an Achilles Fang (early critical proponents of Pound), as a way of performing their powers of "critical discernment." When literature is not treated as a system of belief (quality) and truth (beauty), but understood as a sociological phenomenon enveloping a dynamism yoked to use and life, we'll be moving toward a happier time. Poets seem to be doing this more and more (use and life). I'm particularly happy with the kind of aware, conscious efforts made, for instance, by the ecopoetics movement -- whose criteria are calibrated toward use, sustainability, awareness-raising. Best to you, Ryan. Gabe -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Yesterday -- February 13 -- I received notice from the MLA publications > committee that it is putting out another volume on Pound. The email from > MLA included a link to a survey -- asking the respondent how to teach > Pound. > > I didn't even bother filling out the survey, because I teach Pound as an > abomination, as the canonizing of hatred, as a case study of the power > of consecration dynamics. In short, I teach Pound's very canonicity as > an indictment of literature itself as a project of power. (The name of > the proposed volume and its editor, as well as a link to the site, are > at the bottom of this post). > > Also yesterday -- in 1946 -- February 13 -- Ezra Loomis Pound, who > advocated killing "big kikes" in a "pogrom from the top" and said "it > might be a good thing to hang Roosevelt and a few hundred yidds," was > declared insane by a jury and sentenced to reside in St. Elizabeths > Hospital. > > Two years later he would be awarded the first annual Bollingen Prize, on > whose ten person panel T S Eliot served, who said of himself, "I have no > objection to being called a bigot myself." > > The jury made this statement: "The fellows are aware that objections may > be made to awarding a prize to a man situated as is Mr. Pound.... To > permit other considerations than that of poetic achievement to sway the > decision would destroy the significance of the award and would in > principle deny the validity of that objective perception of value on > which civilized society must rest." (quote from Sieburth's fulsome intro > to /The Pisan Cantos/) > > Jed Rasula writes, "What was crucial was the preservation of the > administrative security system that had assumed custodial control of > poetry (not just Pound's poetry)...." (APWM, 114) > > I call Sieburth's introduction to /The Pisan Cantos/ "fulsome" because > of his elision and effacement of Pound's racism: the rhetoric of > Sieburth's intro to /The Pisan Cantos/ is unconscionably apologetic > about Pound's racism (toward both African-Americans and Jews, and the > intro basically COMPLETELY elides the horror of Pound's anti-semitism > and his anti-Slavism to boot). > > The furthest Sieburth goes in his introduction is to say Pound had > "conflicted attitudes to race" and that he is "insouciantly > condescending" in his use of racial hate speech and that Pound's views > "might have been" "paternalistic." That's just from one page -- xxi -- > of Sieburth's intro. Sieburth's introduction on the point of race does > not even mention Pound's advocating systematic pograms. > > Please note: This post is not critical of Rasula. The valence of my post > is this: It states a beef with Sieburth and the culture industry that > has canonized a writer like Pound -- doing so essentially via the same > legitimations outlined in the statement I quote from the Bollingen Prize > committee -- a statement now 52 years old. > > Rasula is quoted here not to be critical of Rasula but to underscore (a) > what the Bollingen Prize committee's statement was really about (control > of the dynamics of consecration at the cost of effacing Pound as a poet > of hatred), and (b) that essentially Pound's continued canonicity is not > about Pound per se (because Pound = Anti-Semitism, Pound = Hate) but > about the exercise of consecration itself. > > If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object > is clearly irrelevant. > > Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the > muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his > introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do. > > _Approaches to Teaching Ezra Pound's Poetry and Prose_, edited by > Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos. "We ask, first, that you respond to a brief > questionnaire available on the MLA Web site at www.mla.org/approaches" > > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:21:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Re: Catherine Wagner at Vanderbilt University Comments: cc: jilly9@GMAIL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hi jilly, the event is very much open to the public. audio will also be recorded and available for download/podcast at some point in the not-too-distant future. will keep you posted... allbests, tom > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:05:29 -0600 > From: Jilly Dybka > Subject: Re: Catherine Wagner at Vanderbilt University > > Do you know if this is open to the public? I tried that number & got a > voicemail. > > Thanks > Jilly > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > > Vanderbilt Writing Studio Presents: > > > > On Writing, with Catherine Wagner > > > > Friday, February 15 > > 4:30-6:00 pm > > Alumni Hall 117 > > > > On Writing is a series of conversations with faculty and other > > advanced writers at Vanderbilt about their writing practices. > > Conversations examine writers' eccentricities and the ways in which a > > given writer generates ideas, cultivates a style, and responds to > > various writing situations. > > > > Catherine Wagner is the author of two books of poems, Miss America > > and Macular Hole, and co-editor of Not for Mothers Only: Contemporary > > Poems on Child-Getting and Child-Rearing (all from Fence Books). She > > is the winner of the Ruth Lilly Prize and was a Teaching-Writing > > Fellow at the Iowa Writers Workshop. A native of Baltimore, Maryland, > > she is currently an Assistant Professor of English at Miami > > University in Oxford, Ohio. > > > > Reception to follow. > > > > Writing Studio > > Vanderbilt University > > 117 Alumni Hall > > Nashville, TN 37240 > > 615-343-2225 > > > > > > -- > Jilly Dybka, WA4CZD > jilly9@gmail.com > > Ron Paul 2008 - TN 7th District Leader > > Blog: http://www.poetryhut.com/wordpress/ > Jazz: http://cdbaby.com/cd/dybka > > Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may > have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do > this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no > recourse nor protection. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:39:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <9778b8630802142017q570d3415v7faa5811d10b8904@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you need a justification for teaching Ezra Pound, not as an asshole but as an important poet, I suggest you try Canto #13. Regards, Tom Savage Ryan Daley wrote: This really sounds like a great way to teach Pound, and a great course. Along with Pound, do you teach state-supported Soviet writers too? Is the fact that Mien Kampf remains on shelves a sign of a hidden cult of Hitler? I'm not sure I would equate the "reading of" with a "sympathy with" or an "admiration of." I somehow take issue with the idea that literature is an exhaust duct of power, a way to detour and jettison guilty feelings from feeble head of state. Certainly not all literature --and definitely not all writing-- falls into this category. What do we look for in deciding this? -Ryan On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Yesterday -- February 13 -- I received notice from the MLA publications > committee that it is putting out another volume on Pound. The email from > MLA included a link to a survey -- asking the respondent how to teach > Pound. > > I didn't even bother filling out the survey, because I teach Pound as an > abomination, as the canonizing of hatred, as a case study of the power > of consecration dynamics. In short, I teach Pound's very canonicity as > an indictment of literature itself as a project of power. (The name of > the proposed volume and its editor, as well as a link to the site, are > at the bottom of this post). > > Also yesterday -- in 1946 -- February 13 -- Ezra Loomis Pound, who > advocated killing "big kikes" in a "pogrom from the top" and said "it > might be a good thing to hang Roosevelt and a few hundred yidds," was > declared insane by a jury and sentenced to reside in St. Elizabeths > Hospital. > > Two years later he would be awarded the first annual Bollingen Prize, on > whose ten person panel T S Eliot served, who said of himself, "I have no > objection to being called a bigot myself." > > The jury made this statement: "The fellows are aware that objections may > be made to awarding a prize to a man situated as is Mr. Pound.... To > permit other considerations than that of poetic achievement to sway the > decision would destroy the significance of the award and would in > principle deny the validity of that objective perception of value on > which civilized society must rest." (quote from Sieburth's fulsome intro > to /The Pisan Cantos/) > > Jed Rasula writes, "What was crucial was the preservation of the > administrative security system that had assumed custodial control of > poetry (not just Pound's poetry)...." (APWM, 114) > > I call Sieburth's introduction to /The Pisan Cantos/ "fulsome" because > of his elision and effacement of Pound's racism: the rhetoric of > Sieburth's intro to /The Pisan Cantos/ is unconscionably apologetic > about Pound's racism (toward both African-Americans and Jews, and the > intro basically COMPLETELY elides the horror of Pound's anti-semitism > and his anti-Slavism to boot). > > The furthest Sieburth goes in his introduction is to say Pound had > "conflicted attitudes to race" and that he is "insouciantly > condescending" in his use of racial hate speech and that Pound's views > "might have been" "paternalistic." That's just from one page -- xxi -- > of Sieburth's intro. Sieburth's introduction on the point of race does > not even mention Pound's advocating systematic pograms. > > Please note: This post is not critical of Rasula. The valence of my post > is this: It states a beef with Sieburth and the culture industry that > has canonized a writer like Pound -- doing so essentially via the same > legitimations outlined in the statement I quote from the Bollingen Prize > committee -- a statement now 52 years old. > > Rasula is quoted here not to be critical of Rasula but to underscore (a) > what the Bollingen Prize committee's statement was really about (control > of the dynamics of consecration at the cost of effacing Pound as a poet > of hatred), and (b) that essentially Pound's continued canonicity is not > about Pound per se (because Pound = Anti-Semitism, Pound = Hate) but > about the exercise of consecration itself. > > If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object > is clearly irrelevant. > > Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the > muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his > introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do. > > _Approaches to Teaching Ezra Pound's Poetry and Prose_, edited by > Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos. "We ask, first, that you respond to a brief > questionnaire available on the MLA Web site at www.mla.org/approaches" > > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:39:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I had a feeling Sam Hamill would have something (from Buenos Aires) to say about all this: Dear Paul: This kind of stuff makes me crazy. It's reason #1423 why I didn't want to go into teaching, despite being a good teacher. 1. If you judge the value of literature by the character of its authors, how many good books will be left standing? Villon the Thief, Marlowe the Assassin, Li Po the Drunk, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Coleridge, and on and on... How many Southern writers were not racist, including Faulkner? How many Japanese writers did not despise the Chinese and Koreans and vice versa? How many classical authors were not sexist-- virtually the entire body of Greek classics is deeply so. Should we scrap Prufrock and Four Quartets because Eliot was a bigot? 2. The reason Ez spent ten years in silence and never completed his plan to edit the Cantos ("cutting them by 1/3rd") is that his suffered profound guilt over having "been seduced by stupid suburban prejuduce" that also seduced two or three generations of his peers--including the notion that WWI was a product of "Jewish bankers and arms-dealers of Europe." 3. Are the Cantos NOT worth study? Is the ABC of Reading NOT worth reading? Is his Confucius NOT the first decent Master K'ung in English? Is "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly" NOT a major poem? Are Pound's essays on prosody NOT ground-breaking? Did his Cathay translations (and Imagism) NOT shape 20th century American poetry? Did his Cavalcanti & Spirit of Romance NOT reaffirm the importance of Provence in the history of western literature? 4. I believe that Ezra Pound's deeply disturbed personality produced rampant paranoia and his boundless megalomania. But it also produced genius. 5. Pound's rants over Rome Radio were despicable, but also, very clearly, were a product of a serious emotional breakdown. They are the ravings of a mind overrun by hysteria. That's a sickness. 6. The MLA formula quiz is a reductio ad absurdum. You can't mine gold with a spoon. 7. "Abomination" is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. And it's a word that is often used in reactionary preachings of the born-again church, the anti-semitic church, the racist church, the fanatical homophobic church--it is a loaded word. 8. Whether or not this guy likes it, Ezra Pound is THE father of modern American poetry. And as I say in my own Pisan Canto, "Whatever you say about him is true." INCLUDING his famous generosity toward poets and artists of every stripe (yes, including Jewish ones like Zukovsky). Paul E. Nelson, M.A. WPA President Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Washington Poets Association Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 ----- Original Message ---- From: Ryan Daley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:17:29 PM Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination This really sounds like a great way to teach Pound, and a great course. Along with Pound, do you teach state-supported Soviet writers too? Is the fact that Mien Kampf remains on shelves a sign of a hidden cult of Hitler? I'm not sure I would equate the "reading of" with a "sympathy with" or an "admiration of." I somehow take issue with the idea that literature is an exhaust duct of power, a way to detour and jettison guilty feelings from feeble head of state. Certainly not all literature --and definitely not all writing-- falls into this category. What do we look for in deciding this? -Ryan On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Yesterday -- February 13 -- I received notice from the MLA publications > committee that it is putting out another volume on Pound. The email from > MLA included a link to a survey -- asking the respondent how to teach > Pound. > > I didn't even bother filling out the survey, because I teach Pound as an > abomination, as the canonizing of hatred, as a case study of the power > of consecration dynamics. In short, I teach Pound's very canonicity as > an indictment of literature itself as a project of power. (The name of > the proposed volume and its editor, as well as a link to the site, are > at the bottom of this post). > > Also yesterday -- in 1946 -- February 13 -- Ezra Loomis Pound, who > advocated killing "big kikes" in a "pogrom from the top" and said "it > might be a good thing to hang Roosevelt and a few hundred yidds," was > declared insane by a jury and sentenced to reside in St. Elizabeths > Hospital. > > Two years later he would be awarded the first annual Bollingen Prize, on > whose ten person panel T S Eliot served, who said of himself, "I have no > objection to being called a bigot myself." > > The jury made this statement: "The fellows are aware that objections may > be made to awarding a prize to a man situated as is Mr. Pound.... To > permit other considerations than that of poetic achievement to sway the > decision would destroy the significance of the award and would in > principle deny the validity of that objective perception of value on > which civilized society must rest." (quote from Sieburth's fulsome intro > to /The Pisan Cantos/) > > Jed Rasula writes, "What was crucial was the preservation of the > administrative security system that had assumed custodial control of > poetry (not just Pound's poetry)...." (APWM, 114) > > I call Sieburth's introduction to /The Pisan Cantos/ "fulsome" because > of his elision and effacement of Pound's racism: the rhetoric of > Sieburth's intro to /The Pisan Cantos/ is unconscionably apologetic > about Pound's racism (toward both African-Americans and Jews, and the > intro basically COMPLETELY elides the horror of Pound's anti-semitism > and his anti-Slavism to boot). > > The furthest Sieburth goes in his introduction is to say Pound had > "conflicted attitudes to race" and that he is "insouciantly > condescending" in his use of racial hate speech and that Pound's views > "might have been" "paternalistic." That's just from one page -- xxi -- > of Sieburth's intro. Sieburth's introduction on the point of race does > not even mention Pound's advocating systematic pograms. > > Please note: This post is not critical of Rasula. The valence of my post > is this: It states a beef with Sieburth and the culture industry that > has canonized a writer like Pound -- doing so essentially via the same > legitimations outlined in the statement I quote from the Bollingen Prize > committee -- a statement now 52 years old. > > Rasula is quoted here not to be critical of Rasula but to underscore (a) > what the Bollingen Prize committee's statement was really about (control > of the dynamics of consecration at the cost of effacing Pound as a poet > of hatred), and (b) that essentially Pound's continued canonicity is not > about Pound per se (because Pound = Anti-Semitism, Pound = Hate) but > about the exercise of consecration itself. > > If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object > is clearly irrelevant. > > Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the > muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his > introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do. > > _Approaches to Teaching Ezra Pound's Poetry and Prose_, edited by > Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos. "We ask, first, that you respond to a brief > questionnaire available on the MLA Web site at www.mla.org/approaches" > > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:55:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Starr Subject: Ron Starr - Reading, Redmond, WA, 2/16, 7:30 pm. In-Reply-To: <20080214100309.BAT92574@m4500-00.uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Details and directions here: http://www.rasp.cc/ I'll have copies of my book available for sale. -Ron Starr ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:02:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: WHAT IS A WORD / Kocik under Wall Street / THE PERINEUM / February 13, 17, 24 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed That's why we're building a blue glass bird operated time machine at =20= Dreamtime Village. On Feb 14, 2008, at 9:15 PM, Jonathan Skinner wrote: > > > Lastly=97I=92d very much like to meet with anyone who=92d like to talk > about designing a building that meets the needs of poets.(To my > knowledge, there is not a structure on the planet designed > specifically for full realization of poetry.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Melnicove Subject: Bern Porter on UBUWEB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now on UBUWEB Five rare books from the 1960s by BERN PORTER with essay by Mark Melnicove http://www.ubu.com/historical/porter/porter_5books.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:30:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <9778b8630802142017q570d3415v7faa5811d10b8904@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charles Olson's _Conversations at St. Elizabeth's_ consists of journal entries Olson wrote after visiting Pound. Olson detested his venom and = odd economic rants on some days and praised his memory, mind, and eye on = others. As Olson, one can admire and learn from Pound's magnificent work (even = if seriously flawed) and hate his anti-Semitism, racism, etc.=20 I don't know if there are any easy answers to reading/teaching Pound, = but that itself is of significant interest and worth discussion with = students. But purging him for our reading and thinking seems much more than = pointless. (By the way, Olson stopped going to St. Elizabeth's after Pound began = racist rants which included W.C.W., if I remember correctly.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:37:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <47B5D1F0.70106@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Gabe: This is so generalized that it's devoid of anything but polemic--it reads rather like setting up a straw man to tilt at. You might want to start by defining your terms, no easy matter in itself. Mark At 12:54 PM 2/15/2008, you wrote: >Hi Ryan, > >Thanks for your reply. > >I don't think I follow your point about /Mein Kampf/ and Pound. > >My post was about the dynamics of consecration. Literature's most >homologous relation, sociologically, is religion. Both are based on >belief and consecration politics, yet both insist their claims are >anchored in truth and objectivity. My point is that the AG field, >unfortunately, has a pretty bad track record here as well. > >Because the AG field is a fairly autonomous field >of production, it's highly vested in affirming its own >capacity to choose what it cathects as an object of fetish -- and it >will do so even if it means disregarding normative ethical standards. > >Why? Because AG fields survive on symbolic capital over other kinds. In >fact you could argue that AG fields will tend to exercise their power of >consecration on precisely those works that defy normative social concerns. > >You could even argue that a committee committed to autonomous >criteria ("aesthetic" criteria) will choose the most defiant and >heinous candidate, or the most unlikely candidate, just to affirm >its own power. If that means choosing a Pound, so be it. > >Further, critics will leap to enable that consecration, whether a >Hugh Kenner, a Carroll Terrell, an Achilles Fang (early critical >proponents of Pound), as a way of performing their powers of >"critical discernment." > >When literature is not treated as a system of belief (quality) and truth >(beauty), but understood as a sociological phenomenon enveloping a >dynamism yoked to use and life, we'll be moving toward a happier time. > >Poets seem to be doing this more and more (use and life). I'm >particularly happy with the kind of aware, conscious efforts made, for >instance, by the ecopoetics movement -- whose criteria are >calibrated toward use, sustainability, awareness-raising. > >Best to you, Ryan. >Gabe >-- >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > >On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >>Yesterday -- February 13 -- I received notice from the MLA publications >>committee that it is putting out another volume on Pound. The email from >>MLA included a link to a survey -- asking the respondent how to teach >>Pound. >> >>I didn't even bother filling out the survey, because I teach Pound as an >>abomination, as the canonizing of hatred, as a case study of the power >>of consecration dynamics. In short, I teach Pound's very canonicity as >>an indictment of literature itself as a project of power. (The name of >>the proposed volume and its editor, as well as a link to the site, are >>at the bottom of this post). >> >>Also yesterday -- in 1946 -- February 13 -- Ezra Loomis Pound, who >>advocated killing "big kikes" in a "pogrom from the top" and said "it >>might be a good thing to hang Roosevelt and a few hundred yidds," was >>declared insane by a jury and sentenced to reside in St. Elizabeths >>Hospital. >> >>Two years later he would be awarded the first annual Bollingen Prize, on >>whose ten person panel T S Eliot served, who said of himself, "I have no >>objection to being called a bigot myself." >> >>The jury made this statement: "The fellows are aware that objections may >>be made to awarding a prize to a man situated as is Mr. Pound.... To >>permit other considerations than that of poetic achievement to sway the >>decision would destroy the significance of the award and would in >>principle deny the validity of that objective perception of value on >>which civilized society must rest." (quote from Sieburth's fulsome intro >>to /The Pisan Cantos/) >> >>Jed Rasula writes, "What was crucial was the preservation of the >>administrative security system that had assumed custodial control of >>poetry (not just Pound's poetry)...." (APWM, 114) >> >>I call Sieburth's introduction to /The Pisan Cantos/ "fulsome" because >>of his elision and effacement of Pound's racism: the rhetoric of >>Sieburth's intro to /The Pisan Cantos/ is unconscionably apologetic >>about Pound's racism (toward both African-Americans and Jews, and the >>intro basically COMPLETELY elides the horror of Pound's anti-semitism >>and his anti-Slavism to boot). >> >>The furthest Sieburth goes in his introduction is to say Pound had >>"conflicted attitudes to race" and that he is "insouciantly >>condescending" in his use of racial hate speech and that Pound's views >>"might have been" "paternalistic." That's just from one page -- xxi -- >>of Sieburth's intro. Sieburth's introduction on the point of race does >>not even mention Pound's advocating systematic pograms. >> >>Please note: This post is not critical of Rasula. The valence of my post >>is this: It states a beef with Sieburth and the culture industry that >>has canonized a writer like Pound -- doing so essentially via the same >>legitimations outlined in the statement I quote from the Bollingen Prize >>committee -- a statement now 52 years old. >> >>Rasula is quoted here not to be critical of Rasula but to underscore (a) >>what the Bollingen Prize committee's statement was really about (control >>of the dynamics of consecration at the cost of effacing Pound as a poet >>of hatred), and (b) that essentially Pound's continued canonicity is not >>about Pound per se (because Pound = Anti-Semitism, Pound = Hate) but >>about the exercise of consecration itself. >> >>If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object >>is clearly irrelevant. >> >>Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the >>muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his >>introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do. >> >>_Approaches to Teaching Ezra Pound's Poetry and Prose_, edited by >>Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos. "We ask, first, that you respond to a brief >>questionnaire available on the MLA Web site at www.mla.org/approaches" >> >>Gabe >>-- >>http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >>http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 09:41:29 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <638977.23179.qm@web31114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Pound sits on the nub of a particular discomfort. (As does Celine...and even someone like David Jones professed a sympathy with Mosley - it's not an uncommon problem). But I think to read his literary importance as simply a function of defiant consecration and amoral fetishisation - and indeed to describe him simply as "a poet of hatred" - is disingenuous. Isn't that also fetishising, only in this case the poet rather than his work? Pound is also the poet who wrote Homage to Septimus Propertius, and indeed, as Tom said, Canto #13: and to claim that these poems only matter because Pound is a racist and a fascist is perverse. Certainly, were I to deny their worth as poems, I'd be denying a great deal that matters to me about poetry itself. I don't think any poet has taught me more about the construction of a line. To my mind, they matter _despite_ the ugliness of some of his beliefs and utterances: and the fact that these things are side by side, the fact that Pound's poetry is so blemished, creates a dilemma that I think is uncomfortable and, if pursued, illuminating. Because it destablises a certain cult of moral perfection that seems to grow up around the idea of the aestheticised writer and. by extension, around our own culture. When I began to read Pound seriously, I was in part fascinated because it seemed to me that he did have something to say that resonated uneasily with the narrative of victory written by the Allies after WW2. Shorn of its anti-Semitism and rants about usury, his prophecies about the arms industry and the financial markets seem spot on. Without taking on his baggage, it is possible to see a critique that jars against a certain triumphalism that has infected the rhetoric of the west. (If anyone suggests that I am saying this because I agree with Pound's excesses or racism, or because I seek to excuse a poetry of hatred, I shall cry). I think that, read critically, there is a real value in such jagged reminders of how complex human and political situations really are. And I shall never believe that the creation of beauty is useless. It's seldom enough valued for us to have nearly destroyed this planet. Which is to say that I think writerly ethics are much more complex than professed belief. There are some poems out of ecopoetics I admire highly - I just read a masterly adaptation of Milton's Comus by John Kinsella that addresses this very question - but I have also read some very ordinary poems in the name of ecopoetics which make me think that it would be better if the poets concerned were out planting trees. And I hold very deep reservations about readings of poetry that focus so narrowly on dynamics of power that they obscure the experience of the poetry itself, or which veer so closely to moralised interpretations of any oeuvre through biographical readings, such as reducing Pound's very various achievement to "a poetry of hatred". All best Alison -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:45:17 -0500 Reply-To: mtcross@buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael T Cross Subject: Atticus/Finch presents: C.J. Martin's Lo, Bittern Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Hello All, As publisher, I very rarely experience the pleasure of being floored by a n= ew poet=E2=80=94a poet whose name I=E2=80=99ve never heard; however,=20 when it happens, its one of the genuine pleasures of printing. An additiona= l privilege is retaining this pleasure by sharing it=20 with others, vicariously reliving the discovery with each new reader. My gu= ess is you=E2=80=99ve never heard of C.J. Martin, and I=E2=80=99m=20 extremely proud and honored to change that.=20 Last year, Martin published a tiny letterpress chaplet, =E2=80=9CCITY,=E2= =80=9D with the always-elusive Vigilance Society: three little poems=20 mysteriously packaged with nary an explanation. After reading the poems a d= ozen times, frozen at the mailbox, I immediately set=20 out to see what else he had. The result is Atticus/Finch=E2=80=99s twelfth = chapbook release (and C. J. Martin=E2=80=99s first long-player)=E2=80=94Lo,= =20 Bittern. Taking as his point of reference assemblage artists such as Kurt Schwitters= and Louise Nevelson, Martin sculpts sound using=20 restraint at the service of release and revelation. This is visual poetry t= hat works otherwise than mere typographic fuckery,=20 sonic work that listens to sight. The poems here are constantly regenerativ= e and surprising in the truest sense=E2=80=94that is, they=20 depend less on mere parataxis and more on in-sight to accomplish the work o= f astonishment.=20 I=E2=80=99m aware that it takes a little something extra to purchase a book= by an unknown author, especially when new work is spat from=20 the publishing juggernaut every time one blinks; however, I challenge you t= o spend five minutes at our website with Martin=E2=80=99s=20 samples. If you=E2=80=99re not (at the very least) intrigued, you might be = dead. AND, guess what? ATTICUS/FINCH HAS MOVED! After nearly five years in the sn= owy tundra of Buffalo, the press has adopted milder=20 climates in its new home=E2=80=94Seattle, Washington; however, we are proud= to maintain our professional affiliation with the Poetics=20 Program at SUNY Buffalo, and we hope to act as something of a west coast am= bassador, even if we sometimes cuss in public.=20 You can familiarize yourself with Martin=E2=80=99s book at our website (www= .atticusfinch.org), where you=E2=80=99ll find a sample of the cover and=20 some representative poems. You can order the book for ten dollars using Pay= Pal, or you can send a check (made payable to =E2=80=9CMichael=20 Cross=E2=80=9D) to our new address: Atticus/Finch Chapbooks c/o Michael Cross 3004 East Yesler Way, #B Seattle, Washington 98122 We=E2=80=99re always happy to hear from you, and if you and yours reside in= or around Seattle, please drop a note! All Best, Michael Cross=20=20=20=20=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:58:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well said, Alison. Mark At 05:41 PM 2/15/2008, you wrote: >Pound sits on the nub of a particular discomfort. (As does Celine...and even >someone like David Jones professed a sympathy with Mosley - it's not an >uncommon problem). But I think to read his literary importance as simply a >function of defiant consecration and amoral fetishisation - and indeed to >describe him simply as "a poet of hatred" - is disingenuous. Isn't that also >fetishising, only in this case the poet rather than his work? Pound is also >the poet who wrote Homage to Septimus Propertius, and indeed, as Tom said, >Canto #13: and to claim that these poems only matter because Pound is a >racist and a fascist is perverse. Certainly, were I to deny their worth as >poems, I'd be denying a great deal that matters to me about poetry itself. I >don't think any poet has taught me more about the construction of a line. To >my mind, they matter _despite_ the ugliness of some of his beliefs and >utterances: and the fact that these things are side by side, the fact that >Pound's poetry is so blemished, creates a dilemma that I think is >uncomfortable and, if pursued, illuminating. Because it destablises a >certain cult of moral perfection that seems to grow up around the idea of >the aestheticised writer and. by extension, around our own culture. > >When I began to read Pound seriously, I was in part fascinated because it >seemed to me that he did have something to say that resonated uneasily with >the narrative of victory written by the Allies after WW2. Shorn of its >anti-Semitism and rants about usury, his prophecies about the arms industry >and the financial markets seem spot on. Without taking on his baggage, it is >possible to see a critique that jars against a certain triumphalism that has >infected the rhetoric of the west. (If anyone suggests that I am saying this >because I agree with Pound's excesses or racism, or because I seek to excuse >a poetry of hatred, I shall cry). I think that, read critically, there is a >real value in such jagged reminders of how complex human and political >situations really are. And I shall never believe that the creation of beauty >is useless. It's seldom enough valued for us to have nearly destroyed this >planet. > >Which is to say that I think writerly ethics are much more complex than >professed belief. There are some poems out of ecopoetics I admire highly - I >just read a masterly adaptation of Milton's Comus by John Kinsella that >addresses this very question - but I have also read some very ordinary poems >in the name of ecopoetics which make me think that it would be better if the >poets concerned were out planting trees. And I hold very deep reservations >about readings of poetry that focus so narrowly on dynamics of power that >they obscure the experience of the poetry itself, or which veer so closely >to moralised interpretations of any oeuvre through biographical readings, >such as reducing Pound's very various achievement to "a poetry of hatred". > >All best > >Alison > > >-- >Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:23:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Bernstein on Pound - Excerpts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Excerpts from "Pounding Fascism (Appropriating Ideologies -- Mystification, Aestheticization, and Authority in Pound's Poetic Practice)" [Essay from A POETICS by Charles Bernstein] -- "... For Pound's fascism is all too easily censured, as by slap on hand, while the fascist ideas that infect his poetry and poetics seep unnamed into the orthodox cultural theory and criticism of this society. Pound's fascism, far from hindering the canonization of his poetry by American literary culture, has been a major factor in its acceptance. Stripped of its obnoxious overtness, Pound's fascism becomes the stern but fatherly voice of authority, measuring by the Pound standard the absolute worth of the cultural production of all the societies of earth, the ultimate Core Curriculum. Without its righteously Eurocentric and imperiously authoritative undercurrent, the formal innovations of Pound's poetry would have contributed to its marginalization. This is evident from the relaxtive marginalization of much of the formally innovative poetry of, sic, "The Pound Era". Pound's status, far from being jeopardized by his political ideas, is enhanced by them. I do not, however, equate Pound's politics with Pound's poetry. The Cantos is in many ways radically (radially) at odds with the tenets of his fascist ideals. In this sense, Pound has systematically misinterpreted the nature of his own literary production; refused, that is, to recognize in it the process he vilified as usury and Jewishness. This blindness to the meaning of his work, to how in significant ways it represented what he claimed to revile most, contributed not only to the rabidness of his dogmatism but also to the heights of magnificent self-deception and elegiac confusion that is The Cantos at its best." "Pound, or part of him, wished to control the valuation of the materials he appropriated by arranging them in such a way that an immanent or 'natural' order would be brought into being. As Pound seems to acknowledge in the final movements of the (for the moment) standard version of the poem, The Cantos never jells in this way. For Pound this was a measure, no matter how ambivalent he may have been about the evaluation, of the failure of The Cantos. ... Pound's great achievement was to create a work using ideological swatches from many social and historical sectors of his own society and an immense variety of other cultures. This complex, polyvocal textuality was the result of his search -- his unrequited desire for -- deeper truths than could be revealed by more monadically organized poems operating with a single voice and a single perspective. But Pound's ideas about what mediated these different materials are often at odds with how these types of textual practices actually work in The Cantos. Pound's fascist ideology insists on the author's having an extraliterary point of 'special knowledge' that creates a phallic order (these are Pound's terms) over the female chaos of conflicting ideological material. As Robert Casillo points out in his study of Pound's antisemitism, Pound contrasts the phallocentric/logocentric unswerving pivot (citing Wang in canto 97: 'man's phallic heart is from heaven / a clear spring of rightness') with the castrated and nomadic Jew. Jews are the purveyors of fragmentation and therefore the dissolution of fixed hierarchical cultural values (the Jews, says Pound on the radio, want to 'blot out the classics, blot out the record'). Again, Jews, as usurers and in league with the Commies, represent 'an indistinct, rootless, destructive mass' eroding the agrarian ideal of homestead, of nature and private property (values Pound equates with order, clarity, telos). " "...As Casillo concludes, 'Pound turned to Fascism because he shares not only its deep fear of indeterminacy' -- of the vague, inchoate, and incommensurable, of all that is mysterious or ambiguous or unknown -- 'but also its central desire, which is to banish the indeterminate from social life ... And as in Fascism, in Pound's work the ultimate sign of such fearful [indefiniteness] is the Jew.' What grotesque views for someone whose work is filled with indeterminacy, fragmentation, abstraction, obscurity, verbiage, equivocation, ambiguity, allegory; who has made the highest art of removing ideologies from their origins and creating for them a nomadic economy whose roots are neither in the land nor in the property but rather in the abstraction of aestheticization and the irresolution of the jarring harmonies of incommensurable sounds. As Richard Sieburth has noted, the ultimate irony of The Cantos is that all its irreconcilable elements can be reconciled only in the abstract, by the authority of the author, on credit. Indeed, the real economy of The Cantos is the one Pound constantly struggled to repress and to lay bare: the economy of reader and writer and book; the economy of language not as Logos but as exchange. ..." "...neither do I wish to ignore the warning implicit in these considerations: that aesthetic processes can be used for a variety of purposes; that to understand a work requires interrogating its motivations and social context. It is always revealing to ask of a work: what does it serve and how? The answer to this question, however, is not identical to what the worker's intentions may be. A response to this challenge is that some work may usefully evade any single social or political claim made for or against it because of the nature of its contradictions, surpluses, and negations. Perhaps this is the most positive thing that might be said of Pound's poetic works. But perhaps fascism has won the day, anyway. When Pound the great artist is excused for his politics, fascism has won. When Pound's politics are used to categorically discredit the compositional methods of his poetry, fascism has won. When Pound's poetry is exalted and his politic dismissed as largely irrelevant to his achievement, fascism has won. When Pound's politics are condemned, his poetry acknowledged or ignored in passing, but sanitized forms of his ideas prevail-- the virtue of authority, property, and the homestead ('family values'), the sanctity of the classics, the condemnation of the nonstandard in favor of 'the plain sense of the word' and the divine right of the West (or East) to harness and bleed the rest of the world--fascism has won. ...." Excerpts from Pounding Fascism (Appropriating Ideologies -- Mystification, Aestheticization, and Authority in Pound's Poetic Practice) [Essay from A POETICS by Charles Bernstein] ~~~ Excerpts from -- http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/essays/poundbern.html "After insisting on the necessity and value of reading Pound in terms of his fascism, my speech begins with a discussion of Jerome Rothenberg's anthologies as a counter to the Core Curriculum mania (then in full swing), which I suggest is a logical extension of Pound's ideas of master texts. (Here I distinguish between Pound's "panculturalism" and "decentered multiculturalism".) I go on to differentiate Pound's desire for "montage" (the use of contrasting images toward the goal of one unifying theme) from his practice of "collage" (the use of different textual elements without recourse to an overall unifying idea). The piece ends with a discussion of Jackson Mac Low's great book Words nd ends from Ez, which it still seems to me is a fundamental resource for any consideration of Pound." "...This new Pound criticism, which in some ways incorporates aspects of what has come to be called cultural criticism, or cultural and gender studies, tries to integrate Pound's political and economic ideas with his poetic practice. Like all critical projects, this one is limited. Much of the best Pound criticism before this period tended in various ways to cauterize or surgically remove the cancerous parts of Pound's work, or career, in an attempt to save the good parts. Partly this was a strategy to "save" the work, but it was equally a forceful interpretative system, an "apolitics" of poetry if you will. (Peter Nicholls: "Most previous criticism of [Pound's] work has, from a variety of motives, sought to keep these different strands separate, tending in particular to drive a web between the 'literary' and poltical dimensions in his writing.")" "The point here is not to say one approach or the other is right but to note that these approaches allow for different readings of Pound's poetry. None of this work, it seems to me, ought to drive one from reading Pound; quite on the contrary. (Possibly this may be the work of a distinctly younger generation of scholars who no longer felt that raising these issues aligned their views with those who roundly dismissed Pound in the postwar period; this earlier polarization pushed those who went to the defense of Pound's poetry to avoid dwelling on the relation it has to his politics and views on money.) Casillo and Sieburth actually brought me back to reading Pound; that is, reading through the fascism and masculinism brought me from a passive, largely unarticulated, aversion to Pound, to an active, and ongoing, interest in all aspects of his work. Certainly I have been polemical in my essays on Pound, but not without the ironic realization that Pound relished just this sort of poetic polemicism. Reading Pound through the fascism means reading Pound in the most specific social and historical terms. It also means reading poetic forms politically, as an economy of signs ..." "Poetry is not worth reading because it is comfortable or happy or understandable or uplifting, any more than history or philosophy is. Nor does reading for a politics of poetic form mean that forms are liberating; more often we find, as Ray DiPalma once wrote, that "all forms are coercive". If one starts with the assumption that a poetry should be truthful or beautiful, that it's meaning should transcend the circumstances of its production -- then of course talk of the politics of Pound's poetic forms will seem dismissive of Pound's work, since it pulls that work down from the heights of poetic vanity into the real-politics of the actual poem in actual history. People say, Pound was deluded, Pound was insane, Pound was paranoid, Pound was delusional, as a way to explain away, or possibly contextualize, his fascism. I don't doubt this, but it doesn't get me anywhere. Fascism itself was (IS) delusional and paranoid, and Hitler and Mussolini and Goebbels are certifiable in my book, as are the shouting Brown Shirts pictured in Triumph of the Will (don't we call this "mass hysteria"?). [Highly recommended, in this context, in the recent documentary on Riefenstahl, "The Wonderful, Horrible World of Leni Riefenstahl".] I agree with Pierre Joris that what's important to understand as we approach the end of this long century is the nature of this delusion, of this insanity, that has attracted so many otherwise admirable, sometimes brilliant, people, groups, indeed cultures. Of course Pound was delusional during the period of his Radio Speeches; reading Pound means reading through these delusions, trying to come to terms with them. It doesn't mean that in making these judgments one is free of one's own delusions, or that such a reading gives a complete account of this poetic works, which demands multiple, contradictory, readings. Pound was not just a fascist; he had different politics, and poetics, at different points in his life and even at some of the same points. Nicholls notes that from 1930 to 1937, Pound was eager to keep a dialogue open with the American Left; and earlier in his life his views seemed more Left than Right, although, reading Nicholls, one begins to see this as much as a weakness in the Life/Right distinction as an inconsistency on Pound's part. Nicholls also shows that "perhaps the most disquieting thing about [Pound's] savage propaganda is that it was to some degree an extension of ideas that had governed the earlier Cantos." Indeed, Nicholls's tracings of the (de?)evolution of the practice of "authority" and "ideological closure" in Pound's work is crucial for understanding a fundamental dynamic of modernism. Yet Pound's poetry is never simply a direct reflection of his politics; indeed, I would argue quite to the contrary that Pound's work contradicts his fascism. The fascist reading of Pound's poetic practice is valuable as one approach; it is not a final or definitive reading; as with all critical methods, it illuminates some issues while obscuring others. Of course, as Casillo's book and other Pound criticism shows, it also may push the criticism to the polemical and even hysterical, as if the critic feels she or he is wrestling with a demon more than interpreting a poem. This too needs to be historicized and contextualized before it can be judged. Pound told Allen Ginsberg he suffered from "that stupid, suburban prejudice of antisemiticm", as if he should have been immune from such a low, "suburban" consciousness. But one thing that is notable about Pound is that he does not appear to have been "personally" antisemitic, which would have been in no way unusual for a person of his generation and background. His attacks on Jews are not related to his hatred of individual Jews or his desire to be a member of an "exclusive" country club. His views of Jews are highly theoretical and structural, projecting Jewishness, more than individual Jews, as the core force in the destruction of the most cherished values of the West. This demonization is not a "stupid suburban prejudice", it is the systematic paranoia-producing ideology that has come to be called by the fascism. (Burton Hatlen: "we will all seriously misundertand fascism if we insist on seeing it as a "right-wing" poltical movement. For fascsim ... blended an authoritarianism ususally associated with the `right' and a `populism' ususally characteristic of the `left'.") Marjorie Perloff is quite right to point to it in Buchanan and the fundamentalist right; they too have gone well beyond "stupid suburban prejudice", even as they bank on it. It is scary to see the degree to which fascist ideas have rooted themselves so deeply in mainstream American life, often in the guise of family values and consonance with a natural order. Pound's most fascist polemics resonate in an eery way with the current wave of attacks on the arts, gays, the disenfranchised poor, immigrants, feminism, and the cities. I say this because there is often a tendency among Americans to exoticize fascism; Pound did his best to bring it home." The rest can be read here: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/essays/poundbern.html _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:42:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Mosconi Subject: Jasper Bernes, Anthony McCann Reading in LA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If you live in Southern California, we hope to see you at the next installment of THE SMELL LAST SUNDAY READING SERIES SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2008 With featured readers Jasper BERNES Anthony MCCANN The Smell is located at 247 S. Main Street Between 2nd and 3rd Street The entrance is through the back, by way of the alley, west of Main Street. The doors will open at 6:30 pm. Five dollars at the door. A bit more about the featured readers: Jasper Bernes is the author of Starsdown (in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni) and a literary annotation of the human genome, Desequencer, forthcoming from TAXT. He grew up in Southern California and now lives in Albany, CA with Anna Shapiro and their son Noah. He is a graduate student at UC Berkeley. Anthony McCann was born and raised in the Hudson Valley. He is the author of Moongarden (Wave Books, 2006) and Father of Noise (Fence Books, 2003). In addition to these two collections, he is one of the authors of Gentle Reader! (2007), a book of erasures of the English Romantics, along with Joshua Beckman and Matthew Rohrer. He has taught English as a Second Language in the former Czechoslovakia, South Korea and Nicaragua, as well as in New York City. Currently he lives in Los Angeles and teaches poetry at CalArts and ESL to immigrants. He is also the ceremonial and acting poet laureate of Machine Project, an art-performance-gallery-instructional space in Echo Park. -- "He was a linguist, and therefore he had pushed the bounds of obstinacy well beyond anything that is conceivable to other men." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 23:13:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: The remains of the poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The remains of the poet - Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:55:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Coming soon: Strange political art on the east coast! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, all! I wanted to let you know about some performances we're doing on the east coast this month and next--"we" being The Nonsense Company, which does formally odd political theater and new music, as well as the Prince Myshkins, who play (mostly) funny, thought-provoking Kurt-Weill-meets-the-Muppets-like satirical songs on a wide variety of topics. We'll be in New York, Boston, Providence, western Mass., Philadelphia, and other places. All the info is at http://www.nonsensecompany.com http://www.princemyshkins.com The center of the tour is the Nonsense Company's string of performances at the New York FRIGID Festival. In all the Company's gigs on the tour, we'll present "Great Hymn of Thanksgiving / Conversation Storm," a pair of pieces by our own Rick Burkhardt that we've been touring around for a couple of years, and which won the "Best New Play" award at 2007's San Francisco Fringe. I'm pretty proud of the shape the performances are in, and think a lot of you would like it. "Great Hymn" is a piece for three performers around a dinner table setup (with tuned wine glasses, squeaking forks, etc.), and employs group speech techniques we've been working on for years--the sound of a church choir might be cut off in mid-consonant and switch to the sound of a radio being turned on and off in the next room; overlapping texts form phonemic "chords;" blindingly fast perfect unisons persist for unlikely amounts of time. The piece uses news reports from Iraq, mealtime chatter, invented folk tales, scraps from the Army prayer manual, and a fragment of Rae Armantrout's poetry to form an intricate and urgent musical composition. "Conversation Storm" is a play about talking about torture. Three old friends from three sides of the political spectrum argue their way through a "ticking time bomb" scenario, revising, dissecting and brutalizing their own positions in the process, losing track of who believes what and even of which characters they're playing. Time is stretched or collapsed; the performers snap between sccrambled scenes in mid-sentence and mid-gesture as the characters try to reorder and redirect the conversation. What does it mean that torture is up for discussion? What do you become if you take part in that conversation on its current terms, and what happens to your ethical position if you refrain? Kevin Killian writes: "Fantastic.... Little by little the repetitive scrape of a knife across a china plate, the movement of a spoon across a tablecloth, a finger around the rim of a water glass, turns into a symphony.... The back and forth between Higgins and Burkhardt has to be seen to be believed... they have mastered the art of sarcastic and haunting timing. If you can possibly see any of their remaining performances you will be seared like ahi tuna. I give the show my highest rating: go, go, go!" Hope some of you can make it to one of these! Thanks for poetry. all the best, Andy G. http://www.nonsensecompany.com http://www.princemyshkins.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:14:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: forthcoming issue of Frame on "cyberpoetics" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Frame is a journal for literary studies from Utrecht University. http://www.let.uu.nl/alw/frame/en/forthcoming.shtml Quoting the above 'page': Forthcoming issue The forthcoming issue of Frame is on Cyberpoetics. This might sound as a vague theme, but a number of scholars from The Netherlands and from abroad will explain this new way of reading, writing, and representation in their articles. Poet and composer Samuel Vriezen is writing a contribution that touches on Flarf, a new genre within poetry. Flarf poems are apparently composed at random from the results of a search instruction on Google. In these poems, poets can reveal the infinity and at the same time the limitations of the internet. Vriezen shows that despite its origin as a protest against poetry.com, Flarf is situated in a long tradition of avant gardistic poetry that is also composed in The Netherlands. Katherine Hayles's article is of a more technical nature. She discusses the art work Slippinglimpse by Stephanie Strickland, Cynthia Lawson Jaramillo, and Paul Ryan. Her contribution problematises the process of reading and cognition. The relation between human and non-human (digital) factors and receptors is central to her question. Lecturer at the University of Utrecht Kiene Brillenburg Wurth asks in her article whether cyberpoetry is really a rediscovery of modernistic experiments, a post- or multi-medial phenomenon. She poses that cyberpoetry considers differences between media, problematises them and does not commit to one genre. She illustrates this with one kind of cyberpoetry that is formed by multiple media that merge and transform into each other, or as Brillenburg Wurth calls it: "medially complex digital poetry." Amongst others, Brillenburg Wurth uses the work of Jason Nelson and Jim Andrews to prove her argument. Frame editor Noortje Kessels examines the interveniating qualities of Peter Verhelst's novel Zwerm. This is a relatively new term which is mainly applicable to digital literature and which Kessels links to the theories of Deleuze and Guattari. Kessels compares Zwerm to "Spas Text", a digital text that changes when the reader moves his/her mouse on it. How do these fragmentary texts relate to each other and to the theory of intervention? Finally, the forthcoming Frame will contain a new Masterclass, this time with a contribution of MA student Cécile van Reijmersdal who wrote on "hyperfiction" and its consequences for the reader's experience. This Frame will have an extended introductory foreword to explain the history and meaning of the term and phenomenon of Cyberpoetics (written by Marieke Winkler). Frame editor Arwin van der Zwan is writing a book review and Yra van Dijk will contribute a lecture she recently held on Cyberpoetics. We are planning on publishing the issue in May 2008. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:32:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Janet Holmes Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 14 Feb 2008 to 15 Feb 2008 (#2008-47) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yay Allison. Pound's sense of poetic community, his kindnesses to Joyce, Eliot, Frost, and many others (even what we would abhor now as condescension etc to HD meant then as promotion of her work) is not to be wiped out by his later madnesses. In fact, excoriating someone's mental illness strikes me as a horrific bigotry in its own right. His is a complex case and can't be done away with in one self-righteous swipe. -- Janet Holmes http://www.humanophone.com http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu .. .. .. .. .. .. NEW FROM AHSAHTA PRESS: Realm Sixty-Four by Kristi Maxwell the true keeps calm biding its story by Rusty Morrison - 2007 Sawtooth Poetry Prize winner! http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:10:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sauce Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination (8) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, EP was an asshole. As was Charles Olsen. Assholes make great artist. I'm attracted to asshole in literature ("literature is news that stays news") and art, though spending a half hour in the same room as them tends to irritate me, just as I tend to irritate myself or feel foolish or stupid or abominable because of who I am and what I've done in the past and probably what I will do in the future. This is not a dismissal of Pound's assholishness or any others' -ness. We are a multitude of -ness; it is what makes us human beings: we be and we know we are being. Anyone who takes all that EP wrote or said as the essence of his art and his life isn't really getting the -ness of his art or life. EP was a bullshit artist, albeit one of the most passionate, in his day. One, like myself, could even go so far as to say that we, poets of the west, are still responding to Pound's poetics. That's right, for over a hundred years, we've all been responding to Pound, either directly or inadvertantly and/or ignorantly. Pound forces the reader to be a scholar, and I'm not talking all that post-structuralist-post-colonial-post-everything-in-self-malarky, but real scholarship: reading the masters. Pound believed with his soul that truth was real and possible and attainable. Perhaps he strayed because he was never willing to accept truth as being uniquely particular to an individual within a group or community or society in their place and time. Lastly, I hate Ezra Pound. I hate his genius clouded in naivety. I hate his political rants and his negligent passions. Hatred is human, as is fear, desire, love, infatuation, sympathy and appreciation. Hatred only poses a real danger within the mob, as our recent wars will attest. Now, I wonder who spoke out against the mob and war to a greater number of people more? You or EP? All this mumbo-jumbo, this gaggle of words about on and around ol' Ez gives me the creeps. Well? I double-dog-dare you to write a poem as mind-blowingly amazing, as uniquely contemporary, as something more news than "the Pisan Cantos." Go on! Do it, woosie. http://www.bofunk.com/video/1657/woosie_fight.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:23:29 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: eMail for Buck Downs Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Anyone have a legitimate eMail for Buck Downs?=20 I seem to be missing something in my life - a great big hole has formed... Christophe Casamassima =3D Online Annuity Rates and Quotes Annuity rates and quotes for over 300. $25,000 minimum deposit required. Se= arch and compare CD-type, fixed-rate, equity-indexed, and immediate income = annuities. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D55a6e75c09acdc7cc3b86= c61cfe26892 --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:43:54 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 This morning I had a burning idea. What if the reviews journal of self-publ= ished books, objects and ephemera were to coincide with a free distributor?= The name kept rolling around in my head - No Press Distribution, or NPD. I= think it would be best to outline such potential projects here, and hope t= o get feedback from members of the community. No Press Distribution "Pressless is Priceless" 1. First we begin by soliciting members of the poetry community for self-pu= blished books, pamphlets, chapbooks, objects, ephemera, etc. 2. We collect these publications in a database which will eventually become= a web-based distributor like Small Press Distribution. I will build a webs= ite and update consistently. NPD will collect no fees for sales (we're not = a consignment venture - god forbid!) 3. There will be an option for each title for on-line reviews, similar to t= he amazon.com model. I'm not sure what kind of period the physical journal = of reviews will be distributed, but I think it would be conducive to saving= paper if I create a CD-Rom version of the review journal, or keep it stric= tly web-based. In this case, ANYONE can review titles. I believe this optio= n will be more democratic and expansive. 4. Each title will be linked to info about how to purchase or obtain it. Th= ere will be no central "housing"; the web-based distributor is merely a cen= tral catalogue. All business is directed toward the individual. 5. Naturally, no fees will be amassed by me, or anyone managing the web-con= tent, catalogue, etc. 6. I do ask, though, that anyone who wants to submit titles for cataloging/= review should send a copy to me. This is the basic skeleton. Firstly, I am trying to build a databse of peop= le who want to send me materials. Let's try something first. 1. Send me an electronic copy (pdf, doc, rtf) of the description of the mat= erial(s) along with a scanned image/photo (if possible) of it/them. 2. Send me your name and address if you'd like to be informed about future = updates to reviews/catalogue. Please write me if you have any questions. Any help is crucial and highly d= esired... Christophe Casamassima =3D Jim Kerr Guides Washington Fly Fishing Jim Kerr Guides - Year round fly fishing in Northwest and Olympic Peninsula= . Steelhead, sea run cutthroat trout, saltwater salmon. River float fishing= trips and river drift boat charters. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3Db33e86e3d6ec4339ec366= f96f0e31845 --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 08:02:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NPD! If anyone can do this, Christophe can pull it together -- I love this idea, C! Chris has run Furniture Press for many years in Baltimore, publishing lovely chaps he tirelessly made by hand as well as little "tracts" of poems by tons of poets - many from this listserve. These "tracts" (dubbed "PO25centEM") are perfect little samplings to leave about town on buses, cafe counters, and your boss's desk. Anyway, he's done enough publishing and promoting on a small-but-wide scale to know the value of such a service -- why let anyone's efforts go to waste? NPD sounds ideal & worthwhile. I'm in! Amy _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog ----- Original Message ---- From: Christophe Casamassima To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:43:54 AM Subject: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution This morning I had a burning idea. What if the reviews journal of self-published books, objects and ephemera were to coincide with a free distributor? The name kept rolling around in my head - No Press Distribution, or NPD. I think it would be best to outline such potential projects here, and hope to get feedback from members of the community. No Press Distribution "Pressless is Priceless" 1. First we begin by soliciting members of the poetry community for self-published books, pamphlets, chapbooks, objects, ephemera, etc. 2. We collect these publications in a database which will eventually become a web-based distributor like Small Press Distribution. I will build a website and update consistently. NPD will collect no fees for sales (we're not a consignment venture - god forbid!) 3. There will be an option for each title for on-line reviews, similar to the amazon.com model. I'm not sure what kind of period the physical journal of reviews will be distributed, but I think it would be conducive to saving paper if I create a CD-Rom version of the review journal, or keep it strictly web-based. In this case, ANYONE can review titles. I believe this option will be more democratic and expansive. 4. Each title will be linked to info about how to purchase or obtain it. There will be no central "housing"; the web-based distributor is merely a central catalogue. All business is directed toward the individual. 5. Naturally, no fees will be amassed by me, or anyone managing the web-content, catalogue, etc. 6. I do ask, though, that anyone who wants to submit titles for cataloging/review should send a copy to me. This is the basic skeleton. Firstly, I am trying to build a databse of people who want to send me materials. Let's try something first. 1. Send me an electronic copy (pdf, doc, rtf) of the description of the material(s) along with a scanned image/photo (if possible) of it/them. 2. Send me your name and address if you'd like to be informed about future updates to reviews/catalogue. Please write me if you have any questions. Any help is crucial and highly desired... Christophe Casamassima ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:41:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination Comments: cc: Mark Weiss “>>If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object >>is clearly irrelevant. >> >>Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the >>muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his >>introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do.” i’m glad that Amy posted passages from Charles Bernstein’s “Pounding Fascism” ,,, something i’ve often told people i thought was the VERY best piece of writing on Pound ... Since first reading it 12 years ago i've insisted that it’s the ONE thing a reader interested in Pound should seek out, if they’re going to read any criticism on him; .. then if interested, other things ... response to poetry should be open and dialectical; CB’s piece is crucial in that respect, for understanding EP and the Cantos, first and foremost .. but also for grasping the best way to encounter poetry; .. i understand the anger and critical edge informing this rant against Pound; but it’s also simple-minded; it’s CB who points the way to a useful response. Mark Prejsnar "Doubt can move mountains; of all things certain, doubt is the surest." --Bertoldt Brecht ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:20:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Chapman Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <021620081641.18139.47B712440007E07B000046DB22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0E029C060A9D9FD203@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well said. Quoting Mark Prejsnar : > “>>If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object > >>is clearly irrelevant. > >> > >>Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the > >>muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his > >>introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do.” > > > i’m glad that Amy posted passages from Charles Bernstein’s “Pounding Fascism” > ,,, something i’ve often told people i thought was the VERY best piece of > writing on Pound ... Since first reading it 12 years ago i've insisted that > it’s the ONE thing a reader interested in Pound should seek out, if they’re > going to read any criticism on him; .. then if interested, other things ... > > > response to poetry should be open and dialectical; CB’s piece is crucial in > that respect, for understanding EP and the Cantos, first and foremost .. but > also for grasping the best way to encounter poetry; .. i understand the > anger and critical edge informing this rant against Pound; but it’s also > simple-minded; it’s CB who points the way to a useful response. > > > Mark Prejsnar > > "Doubt can move mountains; of all things certain, doubt is the surest." > > --Bertoldt Brecht > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:26:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura hinton Subject: Re: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution Comments: cc: christophecasamassima@graffiti.net In-Reply-To: <20080216154354.857DB13F1C@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I, too, love the idea of NPD. Count me in! And I'm starting my own chapbook series as a result of these Poetics List discussions -- a series that will feature short experimental poetry performance pieces, ones that have been presented/read to an audience. The series will start with a piece I myself am reading this coming week at the contemporary lit conference in Louisville (hence, "self-published"). Follow-up chapbooks will feature other authors. More on my chapbook series later. Meanwhile, thanks to all for the stimulating discussions on self-publishing. Part of the point of conceptual/radical poetry is to push outside the current structures, including that of hierarchical evaluation and entrenched publication systems (for example, that of the known commodity or the "brand name"). I once had an academic colleague say, "Oh, no, not another person writing poetry" (when he discovered I was writing). But I say: the more challenging poetry that is out there circulating, the better. An NPD would be another way to fly under the radar in terms of "distribution laws," and would help keep the small-press world doing what it does best -- not kow-towing to the order of things as even "experimental" venues themselves start to rigidify. Laura On Feb 16, 2008 10:43 AM, Christophe Casamassima < christophecasamassima@graffiti.net> wrote: > This morning I had a burning idea. What if the reviews journal of > self-published books, objects and ephemera were to coincide with a free > distributor? The name kept rolling around in my head - No Press > Distribution, or NPD. I think it would be best to outline such potential > projects here, and hope to get feedback from members of the community. > > No Press Distribution > "Pressless is Priceless" > > 1. First we begin by soliciting members of the poetry community for > self-published books, pamphlets, chapbooks, objects, ephemera, etc. > > 2. We collect these publications in a database which will eventually > become a web-based distributor like Small Press Distribution. I will build a > website and update consistently. NPD will collect no fees for sales (we're > not a consignment venture - god forbid!) > > 3. There will be an option for each title for on-line reviews, similar to > the amazon.com model. I'm not sure what kind of period the physical > journal of reviews will be distributed, but I think it would be conducive to > saving paper if I create a CD-Rom version of the review journal, or keep it > strictly web-based. In this case, ANYONE can review titles. I believe this > option will be more democratic and expansive. > > 4. Each title will be linked to info about how to purchase or obtain it. > There will be no central "housing"; the web-based distributor is merely a > central catalogue. All business is directed toward the individual. > > 5. Naturally, no fees will be amassed by me, or anyone managing the > web-content, catalogue, etc. > > 6. I do ask, though, that anyone who wants to submit titles for > cataloging/review should send a copy to me. > > This is the basic skeleton. Firstly, I am trying to build a databse of > people who want to send me materials. Let's try something first. > > 1. Send me an electronic copy (pdf, doc, rtf) of the description of the > material(s) along with a scanned image/photo (if possible) of it/them. > > 2. Send me your name and address if you'd like to be informed about future > updates to reviews/catalogue. > > Please write me if you have any questions. Any help is crucial and highly > desired... > > > Christophe Casamassima > > = > Jim Kerr Guides Washington Fly Fishing > Jim Kerr Guides - Year round fly fishing in Northwest and Olympic > Peninsula. Steelhead, sea run cutthroat trout, saltwater salmon. River float > fishing trips and river drift boat charters. > > http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=b33e86e3d6ec4339ec366f96f0e31845 > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:35:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 14 Feb 2008 to 15 Feb 2008 (#2008-47) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it's not like he went mad and the supported mussolini and became anti-semetic he went "mad" afterwards put in hospital because he was who he was and not tried and killed as a traitor ala rosenbergs etc yet he is /was as he put it surburban in his hatred read jefferson/ and or musolinni before he went MAD On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:32:54 -0700 Janet Holmes writes: > Yay Allison. > > Pound's sense of poetic community, his kindnesses to Joyce, Eliot, > Frost, > and many others (even what we would abhor now as condescension etc > to HD > meant then as promotion of her work) is not to be wiped out by his > later > madnesses. In fact, excoriating someone's mental illness strikes me > as a > horrific bigotry in its own right. His is a complex case and can't > be done > away with in one self-righteous swipe. > > -- > Janet Holmes > http://www.humanophone.com > http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu > .. .. .. .. .. .. > NEW FROM AHSAHTA PRESS: > Realm Sixty-Four by Kristi Maxwell > the true keeps calm biding its story by Rusty Morrison - 2007 > Sawtooth > Poetry Prize winner! > http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:41:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: William Vollmann/Poor People/Violence/Whores For Gloria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit review of vollman book in new brooklyn rail On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:52:43 -0800 Catherine Daly writes: > So odd this came up now, as I was just thinking about how it was time > to go > back to Vollman. Ron and I were voracious Vollman readers until > about The > Butterfly Stories, where a sameness seemed to encroach. Which is > why I > thought it might be time to dive back in. > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:54:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination (8) In-Reply-To: <47B69A8B.5020400@franksauce.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed You sure like to say "asshole" and "bullshit," or so it seems to me. Ah, language, you cesspool and quagmire of easy insults. I disagree entirely that "Assholes make great artists." If it were true, there would be a LOT more great artists, and Dick Cheney would be one of them. So while I don't agree with that mis-logical step, I do think you say some things about Pound that are complex and need to be said. As for "Olson," you could at least learn to spell his name correctly. charles charles alexander chax press chax@theriver.com 650 e. ninth st. tucson arizona 85705 520 620 1626 On Feb 16, 2008, at 1:10 AM, Frank Sauce wrote: > Yes, EP was an asshole. As was Charles Olsen. > > Assholes make great artist. I'm attracted to asshole in literature > ("literature is news that stays news") and art, though spending a > half hour in the same room as them tends to irritate me, just as I > tend to irritate myself or feel foolish or stupid or abominable > because of who I am and what I've done in the past and probably > what I will do in the future. > > This is not a dismissal of Pound's assholishness or any others' - > ness. We are a multitude of -ness; it is what makes us human > beings: we be and we know we are being. Anyone who takes all that > EP wrote or said as the essence of his art and his life isn't > really getting the -ness of his art or life. > > EP was a bullshit artist, albeit one of the most passionate, in his > day. One, like myself, could even go so far as to say that we, > poets of the west, are still responding to Pound's poetics. That's > right, for over a hundred years, we've all been responding to > Pound, either directly or inadvertantly and/or ignorantly. Pound > forces the reader to be a scholar, and I'm not talking all that > post-structuralist-post-colonial-post-everything-in-self-malarky, > but real scholarship: reading the masters. Pound believed with his > soul that truth was real and possible and attainable. Perhaps he > strayed because he was never willing to accept truth as being > uniquely particular to an individual within a group or community or > society in their place and time. > Lastly, I hate Ezra Pound. I hate his genius clouded in naivety. I > hate his political rants and his negligent passions. Hatred is > human, as is fear, desire, love, infatuation, sympathy and > appreciation. Hatred only poses a real danger within the mob, as > our recent wars will attest. Now, I wonder who spoke out against > the mob and war to a greater number of people more? You or EP? > > All this mumbo-jumbo, this gaggle of words about on and around ol' > Ez gives me the creeps. > > Well? I double-dog-dare you to write a poem as mind-blowingly > amazing, as uniquely contemporary, as something more news than "the > Pisan Cantos." Go on! Do it, woosie. > > http://www.bofunk.com/video/1657/woosie_fight.html > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:14:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Model Homes Subject: Re: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution In-Reply-To: <20080216154354.857DB13F1C@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cool ideas, In the interim, there are at least two websites that serve SOME of the functions you are listing. Both Press Press Press ( http://presspresspress.blogspot.com/) and the DIY Poetry Publishing COOP ( http://diypublishing.blogspot.com/) have create small communities of DIYers where announcements and publications and contact infos are regularly exchanged, posted, archived. Certainly not the catalogue command center envisioned below, but spaces to frequent if you're not yet familiar. Cheers, MH http://lilnorton.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:20:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: DOC(K)S 2007-2008 : Le son d'Amour_Le=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E7on=5Fd'amour?= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT DOC(K)S 2007-2008 : ³ Le son d'Amour_Leçon_d'amour ² 416 pp + DVD ROM double couche, 2H 30 de videos + CD ROM, poésie sonore http://www.sitec.fr/users/akenatondocks/DOCKS-datas_f/larevue_f/derniers-num eros_f/LESONDAMOUR_F/CHANTIER_SONDAMOUR.html AKENATON/DOC(K)S ph. Castellin / Jean Torregrosa 7 rue Miss Campbell F 20000 AJACCIO tel 33 (0)4 95 21 32 90 /fax 33(0)4 95 21 03 02 Email: akenaton_docks@sitec.fr http://www.sitec.fr/users/akenatondocks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 11:40:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast-new-light-on= -misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html=0A=0ALetters cast new light on m= isunderstood poet Ezra Pound=0ABy Andrew Johnson=0A=0A=09=09=09Sunday, 3 Fe= bruary 2008=0A=0A=0A=09=09=0A=0A=09=0A=09=09Yet=0Awhile Eliot went on to be= come the leading critic and poet of his day,=0APound's standing has been ma= rred by his support for Mussolini, his=0Abroadcasts over Rome radio during = the Second World War and by his=0Aanti-Semitism.=0A=0A=0ANow recently disco= vered letters by Pound have=0Aadded impetus to literary historians' reasses= sment of him as perhaps=0Athe greatest poet of the last century whose polit= ical views were=0Atragically misunderstood.=0A=0A=0ACorrespondence between = Pound and=0AChinese intellectuals over a period of more than 40 years =96 P= ound had=0Abecome fascinated with the country =96 will shed new light on hi= s=0Agreatest work, The Cantos, and on his true political beliefs when they= =0Aare published for the first time later this month.=0A=0A=0AThey show his= =0Apainstaking efforts to learn Chinese and incorporate his learning into= =0AThe Cantos and also document his move away from fascism and towards=0ACo= nfucianism.=0AThe correspondence also sheds new light on his=0Arelationship= with Eliot, who was also his publisher at Faber &=0AFaber. Pound described= Eliot as a "buzzard" and an "elephant" and said=0Ahe had a "head full of m= ouldy old Christianity". In letters to Achilles=0AFang, a Chinese intellect= ual at Harvard University, in January 1953,=0APound =96 who wrote in an ecc= entric phonetic style =96 reveals his=0Afrustration at the delay in publica= tion of his translation of the=0AConfucian odes. =0A=0A=0A"ALZO a sample pa= ge might serve to satisfy the=0ARev. Elephant [Eliot] who SAID Faber wd/tak= e it on condition it=0Ashd/LOOK like a two guinea book. Of course our emine= nt contemporary is=0Aa damn Xrister/and NOT keen on Oriental wisdom (or muc= h else) BUT he is=0Anot wholly responsible for the goddam delay."=0APound's= biographer,=0AA David Moody, says that the two remained great friends alth= ough=0AEliot's high Anglicism was a bone of contention. "The relationship= =0Abetween Eliot and Pound was very close, lasting throughout their=0Alives= ," he said. "There was a lot of affection. Pound suffered because=0Aof his = politics. Now there is no doubt that Pound is the bigger figure.=0A=0A=0A"H= e=0Adid support Mussolini when Mussolini stood for social justice. His=0Atr= agedy was that he failed to see the change in Mussolini's politics.=0AHis a= nti-Semitism was a worse lapse. He wilfully confused usury with=0AJews in o= rder to sharpen his attack on anti-democratic capitalism." =0A=0A=0AThe=0A1= 62 letters were tracked down over 15 years by Professor Zhaoming Qian=0Aof = the University of New Orleans. "For a long time people were wary of=0Awriti= ng about Pound because of his fascist beliefs. From these letters=0Awe can = see he realised his mistakes."=0A=0A=0A'Ezra Pound's Chinese Friends' by Zh= aoming Qian is out this month from OUP=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.independent.co.uk= /news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast-new-light-on-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pou= nd-777552.html=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ____________________________= ________________________________________________________=0ABe a better frie= nd, newshound, and =0Aknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://= mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ =0A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:56:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <236820.34759.qm@web83313.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed This is probably irrelevant but years ago I read the anti-semitic broad- casts; I've also heard a number of them. They were worse than I could have imagined; they sounded like Celine at his most extreme. What bothers me about Pound is the arrogance I connect with these views, this notion of rectitude that underlies a lot of his work. Although I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about, those broadcasts - which clearly were not an anomaly, one can't blame them on usury, Mussolini, whatever - wrecked his work for me. If the polemic came from a Nazi like Goebbels it would be considered inexcusable; since it's Pound, let's bend over backwards? But there's real violence in him, American Father Coughlin whatever violence, and on a personal note it was too much for me. - A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:03:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #18: Time-Based Poetics 7pm Sunday, February 24th Featuring: David Buuck cris cheek A poetics off the page that takes time as its medium guest curated by Jennifer Scappettone at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Ave -- Chicago, IL close to Grand & Pulaski in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 http://www.spareroomchicago.org BYOB suggested donation $3 doors lock at 7:30pm wheelchair accessible with assistance DAVID BUUCK lives in Oakland and teaches at the San Francisco Art Institute. He is the co-founder of Tripwire, a poetics journal, and BARGE, the Bay Area Research Group in Enviro-aesthetics, and a Contributing Editor at Artweek. His poetry, prose, essays & criticism have been published in a variety of contexts; recent booklets include Ruts, Runts, Between Above & Below, and Paranoia Agent. In the last year he has performed in San Francisco, Santa Cruz, Los Angeles, Boston, and New York. CRIS CHEEK is a poet, book maker, sound artist, mixed-media practitioner and interdisciplinary performer, whose texts have been commissioned and shown locally and trans-locally, often in multiple versions using diverse media for their production and circulation. His most recent work is a full body of collaborations with Kirsten Lavers as TNWK, http://www.tnwk.net. His most recent publication is titled the church, the school, the beer (Critical Documents, 2007). Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. COMING UP: *Experiment #19: March 2 - Kate Greenstreet & Jen Tynes *Experiment #20: April 19 - Barrett Gordon, Matthew Klane, David Pavelich, Laura Sims, Kevin Thurston *Experiment #21: May 15 - Miranda Mellis & Sarah Rosenthal STARTING April 19 events will be held at a new surprise location TBA! more info soon SUMMER/FALL 2008: Judith Goldman & Lily Robert-Foley Ira S. Murfin & Marisa Plumb Authors from the Encyclopedia Project, vol. 2 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:24:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <236820.34759.qm@web83313.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this article does not make the argument that pound's politics were misunderstood. rather it acknowledges quite frankly his support of mussolini and his anti-semitism, though this acknowledgment is buried near the end of the piece. so what is it that is "misunderstood" about pound here: the fact that he was more serious about learning Chinese than is usually believed? that's a tragic misunderstanding? it seems that pound's politics are all too well understood by those of us who take exception to them. amy king wrote: > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast-new-light-on-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html > > Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound > By Andrew Johnson > > Sunday, 3 February 2008 > > > > > > Yet > while Eliot went on to become the leading critic and poet of his day, > Pound's standing has been marred by his support for Mussolini, his > broadcasts over Rome radio during the Second World War and by his > anti-Semitism. > > > Now recently discovered letters by Pound have > added impetus to literary historians' reassessment of him as perhaps > the greatest poet of the last century whose political views were > tragically misunderstood. > > > Correspondence between Pound and > Chinese intellectuals over a period of more than 40 years – Pound had > become fascinated with the country – will shed new light on his > greatest work, The Cantos, and on his true political beliefs when they > are published for the first time later this month. > > > They show his > painstaking efforts to learn Chinese and incorporate his learning into > The Cantos and also document his move away from fascism and towards > Confucianism. > The correspondence also sheds new light on his > relationship with Eliot, who was also his publisher at Faber & > Faber. Pound described Eliot as a "buzzard" and an "elephant" and said > he had a "head full of mouldy old Christianity". In letters to Achilles > Fang, a Chinese intellectual at Harvard University, in January 1953, > Pound – who wrote in an eccentric phonetic style – reveals his > frustration at the delay in publication of his translation of the > Confucian odes. > > > "ALZO a sample page might serve to satisfy the > Rev. Elephant [Eliot] who SAID Faber wd/take it on condition it > shd/LOOK like a two guinea book. Of course our eminent contemporary is > a damn Xrister/and NOT keen on Oriental wisdom (or much else) BUT he is > not wholly responsible for the goddam delay." > Pound's biographer, > A David Moody, says that the two remained great friends although > Eliot's high Anglicism was a bone of contention. "The relationship > between Eliot and Pound was very close, lasting throughout their > lives," he said. "There was a lot of affection. Pound suffered because > of his politics. Now there is no doubt that Pound is the bigger figure. > > > "He > did support Mussolini when Mussolini stood for social justice. His > tragedy was that he failed to see the change in Mussolini's politics. > His anti-Semitism was a worse lapse. He wilfully confused usury with > Jews in order to sharpen his attack on anti-democratic capitalism." > > > The > 162 letters were tracked down over 15 years by Professor Zhaoming Qian > of the University of New Orleans. "For a long time people were wary of > writing about Pound because of his fascist beliefs. From these letters > we can see he realised his mistakes." > > > 'Ezra Pound's Chinese Friends' by Zhaoming Qian is out this month from OUP > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast-new-light-on-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:44:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <47B74678.10206@umn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed yes, I agree with Maria entirely....because Pound is a Sinophile, he =20 can't be an anti-Semite? one trumps the other somehow? that logic, =20 of course, is utterly illegitimate--and yet, it operates covertly in =20 the article--for what else could it be claiming when it asserts Pound =20= was "tragically misunderstood"? On Feb 16, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Maria Damon wrote: > this article does not make the argument that pound's politics were =20 > misunderstood. rather it acknowledges quite frankly his support of =20= > mussolini and his anti-semitism, though this acknowledgment is =20 > buried near the end of the piece. so what is it that is =20 > "misunderstood" about pound here: the fact that he was more serious =20= > about learning Chinese than is usually believed? that's a tragic =20 > misunderstanding? it seems that pound's politics are all too well =20 > understood by those of us who take exception to them. > > amy king wrote: >> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast-new-=20= >> light-on-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html >> >> Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound >> By Andrew Johnson >> >> Sunday, 3 February 2008 >> >> >> =09 >> >> =09 >> Yet >> while Eliot went on to become the leading critic and poet of his day, >> Pound's standing has been marred by his support for Mussolini, his >> broadcasts over Rome radio during the Second World War and by his >> anti-Semitism. >> >> >> Now recently discovered letters by Pound have >> added impetus to literary historians' reassessment of him as perhaps >> the greatest poet of the last century whose political views were >> tragically misunderstood. >> >> >> Correspondence between Pound and >> Chinese intellectuals over a period of more than 40 years =96 Pound = had >> become fascinated with the country =96 will shed new light on his >> greatest work, The Cantos, and on his true political beliefs when =20 >> they >> are published for the first time later this month. >> >> >> They show his >> painstaking efforts to learn Chinese and incorporate his learning =20 >> into >> The Cantos and also document his move away from fascism and towards >> Confucianism. >> The correspondence also sheds new light on his >> relationship with Eliot, who was also his publisher at Faber & >> Faber. Pound described Eliot as a "buzzard" and an "elephant" and =20 >> said >> he had a "head full of mouldy old Christianity". In letters to =20 >> Achilles >> Fang, a Chinese intellectual at Harvard University, in January 1953, >> Pound =96 who wrote in an eccentric phonetic style =96 reveals his >> frustration at the delay in publication of his translation of the >> Confucian odes. >> >> "ALZO a sample page might serve to satisfy the >> Rev. Elephant [Eliot] who SAID Faber wd/take it on condition it >> shd/LOOK like a two guinea book. Of course our eminent =20 >> contemporary is >> a damn Xrister/and NOT keen on Oriental wisdom (or much else) BUT =20 >> he is >> not wholly responsible for the goddam delay." >> Pound's biographer, >> A David Moody, says that the two remained great friends although >> Eliot's high Anglicism was a bone of contention. "The relationship >> between Eliot and Pound was very close, lasting throughout their >> lives," he said. "There was a lot of affection. Pound suffered =20 >> because >> of his politics. Now there is no doubt that Pound is the bigger =20 >> figure. >> >> >> "He >> did support Mussolini when Mussolini stood for social justice. His >> tragedy was that he failed to see the change in Mussolini's politics. >> His anti-Semitism was a worse lapse. He wilfully confused usury with >> Jews in order to sharpen his attack on anti-democratic capitalism." >> >> The >> 162 letters were tracked down over 15 years by Professor Zhaoming =20 >> Qian >> of the University of New Orleans. "For a long time people were =20 >> wary of >> writing about Pound because of his fascist beliefs. =46rom these =20 >> letters >> we can see he realised his mistakes." >> >> >> 'Ezra Pound's Chinese Friends' by Zhaoming Qian is out this month =20 >> from OUP >> >> >> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast-new-=20= >> light-on-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =20 >> _____________________________________________________________________=20= >> _______________ >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! =20 >> Mobile. Try it now. http://=20 >> mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >> V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:23:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination (8) In-Reply-To: <548CBD0C-7980-4C59-8D26-C590F37FAD5A@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" That poetry is made by fallible human beings should come as no surprise.? I want to suggest though that calling Ezra Pound an asshole speaks more to the namer than the named.? It all sounds pretty projective to moi. What's at stake there?? What cultural capital is at risk? -----Original Message----- From: Charles Alexander To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:54 pm Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination (8) You sure like to say "asshole" and "bullshit," or so it seems to me. Ah, language, you cesspool and quagmire of easy insults.? ? I disagree entirely that "Assholes make great artists." If it were true, there would be a LOT more great artists, and Dick Cheney would be one of them. So while I don't agree with that mis-logical step, I do think you say some things about Pound that are complex and need to be said.? ? As for "Olson," you could at least learn to spell his name correctly.? ? charles? ? charles alexander? chax press? chax@theriver.com? 650 e. ninth st.? tucson arizona 85705? 520 620 1626? ? ? ? On Feb 16, 2008, at 1:10 AM, Frank Sauce wrote:? ? > Yes, EP was an asshole. As was Charles Olsen.? >? > Assholes make great artist. I'm attracted to asshole in literature > ("literature is news that stays news") and art, though spending a > half hour in the same room as them tends to irritate me, just as I > tend to irritate myself or feel foolish or stupid or abominable > because of who I am and what I've done in the past and probably > what I will do in the future.? >? > This is not a dismissal of Pound's assholishness or any others' -> ness. We are a multitude of -ness; it is what makes us human > beings: we be and we know we are being. Anyone who takes all that > EP wrote or said as the essence of his art and his life isn't > really getting the -ness of his art or life.? >? > EP was a bullshit artist, albeit one of the most passionate, in his > day. One, like myself, could even go so far as to say that we, > poets of the west, are still responding to Pound's poetics. That's > right, for over a hundred years, we've all been responding to > Pound, either directly or inadvertantly and/or ignorantly. Pound > forces the reader to be a scholar, and I'm not talking all that > post-structuralist-post-colonial-post-everything-in-self-malarky, > but real scholarship: reading the masters. Pound believed with his > soul that truth was real and possible and attainable. Perhaps he > strayed because he was never willing to accept truth as being > uniquely particular to an individual within a group or community or > society in their place and time.? > Lastly, I hate Ezra Pound. I hate his genius clouded in naivety. I > hate his political rants and his negligent passions. Hatred is > human, as is fear, desire, love, infatuation, sympathy and > appreciation. Hatred only poses a real danger within the mob, as > our recent wars will attest. Now, I wonder who spoke out against > the mob and war to a greater number of people more? You or EP?? >? > All this mumbo-jumbo, this gaggle of words about on and around ol' > Ez gives me the creeps.? >? > Well? I double-dog-dare you to write a poem as mind-blowingly > amazing, as uniquely contemporary, as something more news than "the > Pisan Cantos." Go on! Do it, woosie.? >? > http://www.bofunk.com/video/1657/woosie_fight.html? >? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <47B74678.10206@umn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Almost everyone takes exception to Pound's=20 fascism. There are a fair number of artists that=20 one probably wouldn't like much in person who are=20 nonetheless great artists, despite their=20 politics. I'd personally put in that category=20 almost all theistic writing, let alone the casual=20 antisemitism of Williams, Spicer, Eliot, the=20 anglo-Irish snobbery of Yeats, Wagner's general=20 obnoxiousness and of course his antisemitism,=20 Celine, Gesualdo's murderousness, etc. ad=20 nauseam. Which is to say that artists aren't much=20 different on average from the rest of humanity.=20 We go to them for their artistry and whatever=20 corners of wisdom they may have quaranteened off=20 from their viler pieces. We try to understand the=20 connection of their monstrousness to their work=20 in order to better understand each. We try not to=20 see them as just this or that, but as complex=20 beings (as we'd wish to be seen ourselves) We=20 grit our teeth a lot. We don't invite them to dinner. And thankfully there are a few one can actually admire as human beings. Mark At 03:24 PM 2/16/2008, you wrote: >this article does not make the argument that=20 >pound's politics were misunderstood. rather it=20 >acknowledges quite frankly his support of=20 >mussolini and his anti-semitism, though this=20 >acknowledgment is buried near the end of the=20 >piece. so what is it that is "misunderstood"=20 >about pound here: the fact that he was more=20 >serious about learning Chinese than is usually=20 >believed? that's a tragic misunderstanding? it=20 >seems that pound's politics are all too well=20 >understood by those of us who take exception to them. > >amy king wrote: >>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast-new-light-o= n-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html >> >>Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound >>By Andrew Johnson >> >> Sunday, 3 February 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> Yet >>while Eliot went on to become the leading critic and poet of his day, >>Pound's standing has been marred by his support for Mussolini, his >>broadcasts over Rome radio during the Second World War and by his >>anti-Semitism. >> >> >>Now recently discovered letters by Pound have >>added impetus to literary historians' reassessment of him as perhaps >>the greatest poet of the last century whose political views were >>tragically misunderstood. >> >> >>Correspondence between Pound and >>Chinese intellectuals over a period of more than 40 years =AD Pound had >>become fascinated with the country =AD will shed new light on his >>greatest work, The Cantos, and on his true political beliefs when they >>are published for the first time later this month. >> >> >>They show his >>painstaking efforts to learn Chinese and incorporate his learning into >>The Cantos and also document his move away from fascism and towards >>Confucianism. >>The correspondence also sheds new light on his >>relationship with Eliot, who was also his publisher at Faber & >>Faber. Pound described Eliot as a "buzzard" and an "elephant" and said >>he had a "head full of mouldy old Christianity". In letters to Achilles >>Fang, a Chinese intellectual at Harvard University, in January 1953, >>Pound =AD who wrote in an eccentric phonetic style =AD reveals his >>frustration at the delay in publication of his translation of the >>Confucian odes. >> >>"ALZO a sample page might serve to satisfy the >>Rev. Elephant [Eliot] who SAID Faber wd/take it on condition it >>shd/LOOK like a two guinea book. Of course our eminent contemporary is >>a damn Xrister/and NOT keen on Oriental wisdom (or much else) BUT he is >>not wholly responsible for the goddam delay." >>Pound's biographer, >>A David Moody, says that the two remained great friends although >>Eliot's high Anglicism was a bone of contention. "The relationship >>between Eliot and Pound was very close, lasting throughout their >>lives," he said. "There was a lot of affection. Pound suffered because >>of his politics. Now there is no doubt that Pound is the bigger figure. >> >> >>"He >>did support Mussolini when Mussolini stood for social justice. His >>tragedy was that he failed to see the change in Mussolini's politics. >>His anti-Semitism was a worse lapse. He wilfully confused usury with >>Jews in order to sharpen his attack on anti-democratic capitalism." >> >>The >>162 letters were tracked down over 15 years by Professor Zhaoming Qian >>of the University of New Orleans. "For a long time people were wary of >>writing about Pound because of his fascist beliefs. From these letters >>we can see he realised his mistakes." >> >> >>'Ezra Pound's Chinese Friends' by Zhaoming Qian is out this month from OUP >> >> >>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast-new-light-o= n-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>=20 >>__________________________________________________________________________= __________ >>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all=20 >>with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it=20 >>now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:02:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I realize that people dismiss Pound or ignore the work because of his antis= emitism, which is quite an understandable reaction. The problem is that, e= ven today in these "enlightened times", yet another article appeared attem= pting to pardon and dismiss Pound's antisemitism in an effort to position h= im as "the greatest poet of the last century" -- this ongoing trend to excu= se his fascism and render it invisible, as well as forgoing any examination= of how his fascism informed his poetics, is political by its very nature, = historical, and part of what sustains his popularity. Separating the work= from Pound's politics, whether to dismiss his work or to celebrate it, a) = ignores how The Cantos in some ways betrays Pound's fascism and b) allows a= receptive audience to ignore the subversive fascist practices that inform = his work and simultaneously (& ignorantly) celebrate those practices.=0A=0A= It is well worth examining how his fascism informed his work as well as stu= dying other political practices that he used to his benefit but publicly na= med and condemned -- his politics proper are an attempt to deny the conflic= ting politics* of his work. Why? As noted by Bernstein, "It is scary to s= ee the degree to which fascist ideas have rooted=0Athemselves so deeply in = mainstream American life, often in the guise of=0Afamily values and consona= nce with a natural order. Pound=92s most fascist=0Apolemics resonate in an = eery way with the current wave of attacks on=0Athe arts, gays, the disenfra= nchised poor, immigrants, feminism, and the=0Acities. I say this because th= ere is often a tendency among Americans to=0Aexoticize fascism; Pound did h= is best to bring it home."=0A=0AAmy=0A =0A=0A* "Pound=92s great achievemen= t was to create a work using ideological=0Aswatches from many social and hi= storical sectors of his own society and=0Aan immense variety of other cultu= res. This complex, polyvocal=0Atextuality was the result of his search =97 = his unrequited desire for =97=0Adeeper truths than could be revealed by mor= e monadically organized=0Apoems operating with a single voice and a single = perspective. But=0APound=92s ideas about what mediated these different mate= rials are often=0Aat odds with how these types of textual practices actuall= y work in The=0ACantos.=0A=0A=0A=0APound=92s fascist ideology insists on th= e author=92s having an=0Aextraliterary point of =92special knowledge=92 tha= t creates a phallic order=0A(these are Pound=92s terms) over the female cha= os of conflicting=0Aideological material. As Robert Casillo points out in h= is study of=0APound=92s antisemitism, Pound contrasts the phallocentric/log= ocentric=0Aunswerving pivot (citing Wang in canto 97: =91man=92s phallic he= art is from=0Aheaven / a clear spring of rightness=92) with the castrated a= nd nomadic=0AJew. Jews are the purveyors of fragmentation and therefore the= =0Adissolution of fixed hierarchical cultural values (the Jews, says Pound= =0Aon the radio, want to =91blot out the classics, blot out the record=92).= =0AAgain, Jews, as usurers and in league with the Commies, represent =91an= =0Aindistinct, rootless, destructive mass=92 eroding the agrarian ideal of= =0Ahomestead, of nature and private property (values Pound equates with=0Ao= rder, clarity, telos). =94=0A=0A=93=85As Casillo con cludes, =91Pound turne= d to Fascism because he shares=0Anot only its deep fear of indeterminacy=92= =97 of the vague, inchoate, and=0Aincommensurable, of all that is mysterio= us or ambiguous or unknown =97=0A=91but also its central desire, which is t= o banish the indeterminate from=0Asocial life =85 And as in Fascism, in Pou= nd=92s work the ultimate sign of=0Asuch fearful [indefiniteness] is the Jew= .=92=0A=0A=0A=0AWhat grotesque views for someone whose work is filled with= =0Aindeterminacy, fragmentation, abstraction, obscurity, verbiage,=0Aequivo= cation, ambiguity, allegory; who has made the highest art of=0Aremoving ide= ologies from their origins and creating for them a nomadic=0Aeconomy whose = roots are neither in the land nor in the property but=0Arather in the abstr= action of aestheticization and the irresolution of=0Athe jarring harmonies = of incommensurable sounds. As Richard Sieburth=0Ahas noted, the ultimate ir= ony of The Cantos is that all its=0Airreconcilable elements can be reconcil= ed only in the abstract, by the=0Aauthority of the author, on credit. Indee= d, the real economy of The=0ACantos is the one Pound constantly struggled t= o repress and to lay=0Abare: the economy of reader and writer and book; the= economy of=0Alanguage not as Logos but as exchange. =85=94=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ah= ttp://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0802&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D1&O= =3DA&X=3D7F0135200A3950BB1F&Y=3Dpoetics.list%40gmail.com&P=3D40275=0A=0A___= ____ =0A Blog=0A =0Ahttp://www.amyking.org/blog=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ____= ___________________________________________________________________________= _____=0ABe a better friend, newshound, and =0Aknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mobil= e. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA= cJ =0A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:34:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lou Rowan Subject: Lou Rowan books, readings Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear Colleagues, My 2 new books, My Last Days (Chiasmus) and Sweet Potatoes (ahadada), are now out, and I'll be reading at Moe's in Berkeley with David Meltzer 3/5, the Beat Museum in San Francisco with Michael McClure 3/6, Spoonbill and Sugartown in Brooklyn with Rick Moody 4/22, The Community Book Shop in Brooklyn with Toby Olson 4/24. And many more, detailed in my website: www.lourowan.com, which also tells how to get the books. Hope to see you soon. Lou ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:23:37 -0500 Reply-To: clwnwr@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Heman Subject: Save The Date - March 20, 2008 - 5th Big CLWN WR Event MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 5th Big CLWN WR Event Thursday, March 20, 2008 7:00 - 10:00 pm SAFE-T-GALLERY 111 Front Street Gallery 214 DUMBO, Brooklyn FREE ADMISSION!!! featuring Carol Novack Liza Wolsky with special guests R. Nemo Hill Sheila Lanham Richard Loranger Mindy Levokove Jane Ormerod Adriana Scopino Moira T. Smith Joanne Pagano Weber Nathan Whiting Francine Witte hosted by Bob Heman editor of CLWN WR since 1971 Take the F train to York Street, walk downhill to Front and turn left under the Manhattan Bridge. For more information, maps, and directions from other subway lines please check the Gallery website at http://www.safetgallery.com Bob Heman clwnwr@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:57:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <47B5D1F0.70106@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Gabe, I follow. Though I'm not sure what you mean by AG, and I don't see anywhere in the previous commentary where this AG acronym appears. My point by mentioning Mein Kampf relates to "scholarly" approaches to works of literature that exist separate from their creators. Bernstein mentions in Pounding Fascism --and allow me to flagrantly paraphrase-- that it is possible to approach these texts ("these" always being texts that we disagree with) for study without apologizing for the writer's politics. To reject the object of consecration as being a product of an "asshole" seems limiting. And aren't all new philosophies doing a bit of rejecting of "normative" (Define normative, whose normative?) ethical standards? I mention Mein Kampf (along with the music of choice of civilization's great monsters: rockabilly) in order to name another work that almost never comes under attack as the product of a monster that enjoys some level of acceptance as a "consecrated object." Another? Guerrilla Warfare (or anything written by Che, for that matter). It's odd to me that this debate seems to come up every so often. Or perhaps Pound is targeted because he is, and will remain, an easy target. A deceased, easy target. Best, Ryan On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Hi Ryan, > > Thanks for your reply. > > I don't think I follow your point about /Mein Kampf/ and Pound. > > My post was about the dynamics of consecration. Literature's most > homologous relation, sociologically, is religion. Both are based on > belief and consecration politics, yet both insist their claims are > anchored in truth and objectivity. My point is that the AG field, > unfortunately, has a pretty bad track record here as well. > > Because the AG field is a fairly autonomous field > of production, it's highly vested in affirming its own > capacity to choose what it cathects as an object of fetish -- and it > will do so even if it means disregarding normative ethical standards. > > Why? Because AG fields survive on symbolic capital over other kinds. In > fact you could argue that AG fields will tend to exercise their power of > consecration on precisely those works that defy normative social concerns. > > You could even argue that a committee committed to autonomous criteria > ("aesthetic" criteria) will choose the most defiant and heinous > candidate, or the most unlikely candidate, just to affirm its own power. > If that means choosing a Pound, so be it. > > Further, critics will leap to enable that consecration, whether a Hugh > Kenner, a Carroll Terrell, an Achilles Fang (early critical proponents > of Pound), as a way of performing their powers of "critical discernment." > > When literature is not treated as a system of belief (quality) and truth > (beauty), but understood as a sociological phenomenon enveloping a > dynamism yoked to use and life, we'll be moving toward a happier time. > > Poets seem to be doing this more and more (use and life). I'm > particularly happy with the kind of aware, conscious efforts made, for > instance, by the ecopoetics movement -- whose criteria are calibrated > toward use, sustainability, awareness-raising. > > Best to you, Ryan. > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Gabriel Gudding > wrote: > > > Yesterday -- February 13 -- I received notice from the MLA publications > > committee that it is putting out another volume on Pound. The email from > > MLA included a link to a survey -- asking the respondent how to teach > > Pound. > > > > I didn't even bother filling out the survey, because I teach Pound as an > > abomination, as the canonizing of hatred, as a case study of the power > > of consecration dynamics. In short, I teach Pound's very canonicity as > > an indictment of literature itself as a project of power. (The name of > > the proposed volume and its editor, as well as a link to the site, are > > at the bottom of this post). > > > > Also yesterday -- in 1946 -- February 13 -- Ezra Loomis Pound, who > > advocated killing "big kikes" in a "pogrom from the top" and said "it > > might be a good thing to hang Roosevelt and a few hundred yidds," was > > declared insane by a jury and sentenced to reside in St. Elizabeths > > Hospital. > > > > Two years later he would be awarded the first annual Bollingen Prize, on > > whose ten person panel T S Eliot served, who said of himself, "I have no > > objection to being called a bigot myself." > > > > The jury made this statement: "The fellows are aware that objections may > > be made to awarding a prize to a man situated as is Mr. Pound.... To > > permit other considerations than that of poetic achievement to sway the > > decision would destroy the significance of the award and would in > > principle deny the validity of that objective perception of value on > > which civilized society must rest." (quote from Sieburth's fulsome intro > > to /The Pisan Cantos/) > > > > Jed Rasula writes, "What was crucial was the preservation of the > > administrative security system that had assumed custodial control of > > poetry (not just Pound's poetry)...." (APWM, 114) > > > > I call Sieburth's introduction to /The Pisan Cantos/ "fulsome" because > > of his elision and effacement of Pound's racism: the rhetoric of > > Sieburth's intro to /The Pisan Cantos/ is unconscionably apologetic > > about Pound's racism (toward both African-Americans and Jews, and the > > intro basically COMPLETELY elides the horror of Pound's anti-semitism > > and his anti-Slavism to boot). > > > > The furthest Sieburth goes in his introduction is to say Pound had > > "conflicted attitudes to race" and that he is "insouciantly > > condescending" in his use of racial hate speech and that Pound's views > > "might have been" "paternalistic." That's just from one page -- xxi -- > > of Sieburth's intro. Sieburth's introduction on the point of race does > > not even mention Pound's advocating systematic pograms. > > > > Please note: This post is not critical of Rasula. The valence of my post > > is this: It states a beef with Sieburth and the culture industry that > > has canonized a writer like Pound -- doing so essentially via the same > > legitimations outlined in the statement I quote from the Bollingen Prize > > committee -- a statement now 52 years old. > > > > Rasula is quoted here not to be critical of Rasula but to underscore (a) > > what the Bollingen Prize committee's statement was really about (control > > of the dynamics of consecration at the cost of effacing Pound as a poet > > of hatred), and (b) that essentially Pound's continued canonicity is not > > about Pound per se (because Pound = Anti-Semitism, Pound = Hate) but > > about the exercise of consecration itself. > > > > If Pound's canonicity tells us anything, it's that consecration's object > > is clearly irrelevant. > > > > Pound is now a "high capital" object against which to exercise the > > muscles of consecration -- which is precisely what Sieburth does in his > > introduction. And that is probably precisely what this new book will do. > > > > _Approaches to Teaching Ezra Pound's Poetry and Prose_, edited by > > Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos. "We ask, first, that you respond to a brief > > questionnaire available on the MLA Web site at www.mla.org/approaches" > > > > Gabe > > -- > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:07:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <478209.36475.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I still find this a moot argument. Whether Pound is the greatest poet of th= e last century has nothing to do with his fascism. It has to do with his poetry. On Feb 16, 2008 6:02 PM, amy king wrote: > I realize that people dismiss Pound or ignore the work because of his > antisemitism, which is quite an understandable reaction. The problem is > that, even today in these "enlightened times", yet another article appea= red > attempting to pardon and dismiss Pound's antisemitism in an effort to > position him as "the greatest poet of the last century" -- this ongoing > trend to excuse his fascism and render it invisible, as well as forgoing = any > examination of how his fascism informed his poetics, is political by its > very nature, historical, and part of what sustains his popularity. > Separating the work from Pound's politics, whether to dismiss his work or= to > celebrate it, a) ignores how The Cantos in some ways betrays Pound's fasc= ism > and b) allows a receptive audience to ignore the subversive fascist > practices that inform his work and simultaneously (& ignorantly) celebrat= e > those practices. > > It is well worth examining how his fascism informed his work as well as > studying other political practices that he used to his benefit but public= ly > named and condemned -- his politics proper are an attempt to deny the > conflicting politics* of his work. Why? As noted by Bernstein, "It is > scary to see the degree to which fascist ideas have rooted > themselves so deeply in mainstream American life, often in the guise of > family values and consonance with a natural order. Pound's most fascist > polemics resonate in an eery way with the current wave of attacks on > the arts, gays, the disenfranchised poor, immigrants, feminism, and the > cities. I say this because there is often a tendency among Americans to > exoticize fascism; Pound did his best to bring it home." > > Amy > > > * "Pound's great achievement was to create a work using ideological > swatches from many social and historical sectors of his own society and > an immense variety of other cultures. This complex, polyvocal > textuality was the result of his search =97 his unrequited desire for =97 > deeper truths than could be revealed by more monadically organized > poems operating with a single voice and a single perspective. But > Pound's ideas about what mediated these different materials are often > at odds with how these types of textual practices actually work in The > Cantos. > > > > Pound's fascist ideology insists on the author's having an > extraliterary point of 'special knowledge' that creates a phallic order > (these are Pound's terms) over the female chaos of conflicting > ideological material. As Robert Casillo points out in his study of > Pound's antisemitism, Pound contrasts the phallocentric/logocentric > unswerving pivot (citing Wang in canto 97: 'man's phallic heart is from > heaven / a clear spring of rightness') with the castrated and nomadic > Jew. Jews are the purveyors of fragmentation and therefore the > dissolution of fixed hierarchical cultural values (the Jews, says Pound > on the radio, want to 'blot out the classics, blot out the record'). > Again, Jews, as usurers and in league with the Commies, represent 'an > indistinct, rootless, destructive mass' eroding the agrarian ideal of > homestead, of nature and private property (values Pound equates with > order, clarity, telos). " > > "=85As Casillo con cludes, 'Pound turned to Fascism because he shares > not only its deep fear of indeterminacy' =97 of the vague, inchoate, and > incommensurable, of all that is mysterious or ambiguous or unknown =97 > 'but also its central desire, which is to banish the indeterminate from > social life =85 And as in Fascism, in Pound's work the ultimate sign of > such fearful [indefiniteness] is the Jew.' > > > > What grotesque views for someone whose work is filled with > indeterminacy, fragmentation, abstraction, obscurity, verbiage, > equivocation, ambiguity, allegory; who has made the highest art of > removing ideologies from their origins and creating for them a nomadic > economy whose roots are neither in the land nor in the property but > rather in the abstraction of aestheticization and the irresolution of > the jarring harmonies of incommensurable sounds. As Richard Sieburth > has noted, the ultimate irony of The Cantos is that all its > irreconcilable elements can be reconciled only in the abstract, by the > authority of the author, on credit. Indeed, the real economy of The > Cantos is the one Pound constantly struggled to repress and to lay > bare: the economy of reader and writer and book; the economy of > language not as Logos but as exchange. =85" > > > > > > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0802&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DA&X=3D7F0135200A3950BB1F&Y=3Dpoetics.list%40gmail.com&P=3D40275 > > _______ > Blog > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________= ____________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:25:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I find it conveniently dismissive to separate the two. His politics inform= ed his poetry. It would be nice if our "artist" lives could sit on a shelf= , untainted by the messy world and its viewpoints, while our regular person= s walked around, enacting our political views, readying to be shelved when = the artist comes out to play, but these compartmentalizations aren't possib= le. This complex connectedness is why tastes and styles and practices ran= ge and often reflect our socio-economic and ethnic identities (to put it pe= rhaps too simplistically), as well as reflecting our politics proper. Eve= n "safe", "simple", "accessible" "mainstream" poetries promote political pr= actices and predilections. =0A=0ACelebrating and promoting Pound's work wi= thout considering and examining how his fascism informed his poetry is a da= ngerous position to defend. It's also popular and easy.=0A=0AAmy=0A=0A ___= ____ =0ABlog=0A =0Ahttp://www.amyking.org/blog=0A=0A----- Original Message = ----=0AFrom: Ryan Daley =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.= EDU=0ASent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 6:07:53 PM=0ASubject: Re: "Letters = cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound"=0A=0A=0AI =0Astill =0Afind= =0Athis =0Aa =0Amoot =0Aargument. =0AWhether =0APound =0Ais =0Athe =0Agrea= test =0Apoet =0Aof =0Athe=0Alast =0Acentury =0Ahas =0Anothing =0Ato =0Ado = =0Awith =0Ahis =0Afascism. =0AIt =0Ahas =0Ato =0Ado =0Awith =0Ahis=0Apoetry= .=0A=0AOn =0AFeb =0A16, =0A2008 =0A6:02 =0APM, =0Aamy =0Aking =0A =0Awrote:=0A=0A> =0AI =0Arealize =0Athat =0Apeople =0Adismiss = =0APound =0Aor =0Aignore =0Athe =0Awork =0Abecause =0Aof =0Ahis=0A> =0Aanti= semitism, =0Awhich =0Ais =0Aquite =0Aan =0Aunderstandable =0Areaction. =0A= The =0Aproblem =0Ais=0A> =0Athat, =0Aeven =0Atoday =0Ain =0Athese =0A"enlig= htened =0Atimes", =0Ayet =0Aanother =0Aarticle =0Aappeared=0A> =0Aattempti= ng =0Ato =0Apardon =0Aand =0Adismiss =0APound's =0Aantisemitism =0Ain =0Aan= =0Aeffort =0Ato=0A> =0Aposition =0Ahim =0Aas =0A"the =0Agreatest =0Apoet = =0Aof =0Athe =0Alast =0Acentury" =0A-- =0Athis =0Aongoing=0A> =0Atrend =0At= o =0Aexcuse =0Ahis =0Afascism =0Aand =0Arender =0Ait =0Ainvisible, =0Aas = =0Awell =0Aas =0Aforgoing =0Aany=0A> =0Aexamination =0Aof =0Ahow =0Ahis =0A= fascism =0Ainformed =0Ahis =0Apoetics, =0Ais =0Apolitical =0Aby =0Aits=0A> = =0Avery =0Anature, =0Ahistorical, =0Aand =0Apart =0Aof =0Awhat =0Asustains = =0Ahis =0Apopularity.=0A> =0ASeparating =0Athe =0Awork =0Afrom =0APound's = =0Apolitics, =0Awhether =0Ato =0Adismiss =0Ahis =0Awork =0Aor =0Ato=0A> =0A= celebrate =0Ait, =0Aa) =0Aignores =0Ahow =0AThe =0ACantos =0Ain =0Asome =0A= ways =0Abetrays =0APound's =0Afascism=0A> =0Aand =0Ab) =0Aallows =0Aa =0Are= ceptive =0Aaudience =0Ato =0Aignore =0Athe =0Asubversive =0Afascist=0A> =0A= practices =0Athat =0Ainform =0Ahis =0Awork =0Aand =0Asimultaneously =0A(& = =0Aignorantly) =0Acelebrate=0A> =0Athose =0Apractices.=0A>=0A> =0AIt =0Ais = =0Awell =0Aworth =0Aexamining =0Ahow =0Ahis =0Afascism =0Ainformed =0Ahis = =0Awork =0Aas =0Awell =0Aas=0A> =0Astudying =0Aother =0Apolitical =0Apracti= ces =0Athat =0Ahe =0Aused =0Ato =0Ahis =0Abenefit =0Abut =0Apublicly=0A> = =0Anamed =0Aand =0Acondemned =0A-- =0Ahis =0Apolitics =0Aproper =0Aare =0Aa= n =0Aattempt =0Ato =0Adeny =0Athe=0A> =0Aconflicting =0Apolitics* =0Aof =0A= his =0Awork. =0AWhy? =0AAs =0Anoted =0Aby =0ABernstein, =0A"It =0Ais=0A> = =0Ascary =0Ato =0Asee =0Athe =0Adegree =0Ato =0Awhich =0Afascist =0Aideas = =0Ahave =0Arooted=0A> =0Athemselves =0Aso =0Adeeply =0Ain =0Amainstream =0A= American =0Alife, =0Aoften =0Ain =0Athe =0Aguise =0Aof=0A> =0Afamily =0Aval= ues =0Aand =0Aconsonance =0Awith =0Aa =0Anatural =0Aorder. =0APound's =0Amo= st =0Afascist=0A> =0Apolemics =0Aresonate =0Ain =0Aan =0Aeery =0Away =0Awit= h =0Athe =0Acurrent =0Awave =0Aof =0Aattacks =0Aon=0A> =0Athe =0Aarts, =0Ag= ays, =0Athe =0Adisenfranchised =0Apoor, =0Aimmigrants, =0Afeminism, =0Aand = =0Athe=0A> =0Acities. =0AI =0Asay =0Athis =0Abecause =0Athere =0Ais =0Aofte= n =0Aa =0Atendency =0Aamong =0AAmericans =0Ato=0A> =0Aexoticize =0Afascism;= =0APound =0Adid =0Ahis =0Abest =0Ato =0Abring =0Ait =0Ahome."=0A>=0A> =0AA= my=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A* =0A"Pound's =0Agreat =0Aachievement =0Awas =0Ato =0Acr= eate =0Aa =0Awork =0Ausing =0Aideological=0A> =0Aswatches =0Afrom =0Amany = =0Asocial =0Aand =0Ahistorical =0Asectors =0Aof =0Ahis =0Aown =0Asociety = =0Aand=0A> =0Aan =0Aimmense =0Avariety =0Aof =0Aother =0Acultures. =0AThis = =0Acomplex, =0Apolyvocal=0A> =0Atextuality =0Awas =0Athe =0Aresult =0Aof = =0Ahis =0Asearch =0A=97 =0Ahis =0Aunrequited =0Adesire =0Afor =0A=97=0A> = =0Adeeper =0Atruths =0Athan =0Acould =0Abe =0Arevealed =0Aby =0Amore =0Amon= adically =0Aorganized=0A> =0Apoems =0Aoperating =0Awith =0Aa =0Asingle =0Av= oice =0Aand =0Aa =0Asingle =0Aperspective. =0ABut=0A> =0APound's =0Aideas = =0Aabout =0Awhat =0Amediated =0Athese =0Adifferent =0Amaterials =0Aare =0Ao= ften=0A> =0Aat =0Aodds =0Awith =0Ahow =0Athese =0Atypes =0Aof =0Atextual = =0Apractices =0Aactually =0Awork =0Ain =0AThe=0A> =0ACantos.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A= > =0APound's =0Afascist =0Aideology =0Ainsists =0Aon =0Athe =0Aauthor's =0A= having =0Aan=0A> =0Aextraliterary =0Apoint =0Aof =0A'special =0Aknowledge' = =0Athat =0Acreates =0Aa =0Aphallic =0Aorder=0A> =0A(these =0Aare =0APound's= =0Aterms) =0Aover =0Athe =0Afemale =0Achaos =0Aof =0Aconflicting=0A> =0Aid= eological =0Amaterial. =0AAs =0ARobert =0ACasillo =0Apoints =0Aout =0Ain = =0Ahis =0Astudy =0Aof=0A> =0APound's =0Aantisemitism, =0APound =0Acontrasts= =0Athe =0Aphallocentric/logocentric=0A> =0Aunswerving =0Apivot =0A(citing = =0AWang =0Ain =0Acanto =0A97: =0A'man's =0Aphallic =0Aheart =0Ais =0Afrom= =0A> =0Aheaven =0A/ =0Aa =0Aclear =0Aspring =0Aof =0Arightness') =0Awith = =0Athe =0Acastrated =0Aand =0Anomadic=0A> =0AJew. =0AJews =0Aare =0Athe =0A= purveyors 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=0ARichard =0ASieburth=0A> =0Ahas =0Anoted, =0Athe =0Aulti= mate =0Airony =0Aof =0AThe =0ACantos =0Ais =0Athat =0Aall =0Aits=0A> =0Airr= econcilable =0Aelements =0Acan =0Abe =0Areconciled =0Aonly =0Ain =0Athe =0A= abstract, =0Aby =0Athe=0A> =0Aauthority =0Aof =0Athe =0Aauthor, =0Aon =0Acr= edit. =0AIndeed, =0Athe =0Areal =0Aeconomy =0Aof =0AThe=0A> =0ACantos =0Ais= =0Athe =0Aone =0APound =0Aconstantly =0Astruggled =0Ato =0Arepress =0Aand = =0Ato =0Alay=0A> =0Abare: =0Athe =0Aeconomy =0Aof =0Areader =0Aand =0Awrite= r =0Aand =0Abook; =0Athe =0Aeconomy =0Aof=0A> =0Alanguage =0Anot =0Aas =0AL= ogos =0Abut =0Aas =0Aexchange. =0A=85"=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0Ahttp://li= stserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0802&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D1&O=3DA&X= =3D7F0135200A3950BB1F&Y=3Dpoetics.list%40gmail.com&P=3D40275=0A>=0A> =0A___= ____=0A> =0ABlog=0A>=0A> =0Ahttp://www.amyking.org/blog=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A= >=0A>=0A> =0A_____________________________________________________________= _______________________=0A> =0ABe =0Aa =0Abetter =0Afriend, =0Anewshound, = =0Aand=0A> =0Aknow-it-all =0Awith =0AYahoo! =0AMobile. =0ATry =0Ait =0Anow= .=0A> =0Ahttp://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ=0A>= =0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A _________________________________________= ___________________________________________=0ABe a better friend, newshound= , and =0Aknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.= com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ =0A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <716196.53722.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure what Ryan's point is, but I'm=20 guessing that he's saying that there are tons of=20 fascist poets best and completely forgotten=20 because they're terrible poets. Their fascism=20 hasn't connected to a putative fascism inherent=20 in the culture at large to make them famous or admired. Another example: Wagner's protonazism is=20 absolutely central to the Ring Cycle, although=20 one can (and most do) ignore the politics of the=20 mythologizing and enjoy it as simply=20 mythologizing. But his enormous extensions of the=20 language of tonality and of musical structure are=20 neither motivated by that politics nor=20 necessarily tied to it--witness Bruckner, Mahler,=20 Berg, a slew of others. I suggest the same may be=20 true of Pound, and I'd need an analysis of an=20 instance of his means, not a global statement, to convince me otherwise. Mark At 06:25 PM 2/16/2008, you wrote: >I find it conveniently dismissive to separate=20 >the two. His politics informed his poetry. It=20 >would be nice if our "artist" lives could sit on=20 >a shelf, untainted by the messy world and its=20 >viewpoints, while our regular persons walked=20 >around, enacting our political views, readying=20 >to be shelved when the artist comes out to play,=20 >but these compartmentalizations aren't=20 >possible. This complex connectedness is why=20 >tastes and styles and practices range and often=20 >reflect our socio-economic and ethnic identities=20 >(to put it perhaps too simplistically), as well=20 >as reflecting our politics proper. Even=20 >"safe", "simple", "accessible" "mainstream"=20 >poetries promote political practices and=20 >predilections. Celebrating and promoting=20 >Pound's work without considering and examining=20 >how his fascism informed his poetry is a=20 >dangerous position to defend. It's also popular=20 >and easy. Amy _______ Blog=20 >http://www.amyking.org/blog ----- Original=20 >Message ---- From: Ryan Daley=20 > To:=20 >POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday,=20 >February 16, 2008 6:07:53 PM Subject: Re:=20 >"Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet=20 >Ezra Pound" I still find this a moot argument.=20 >Whether Pound is the greatest poet of the last=20 >century has nothing to do with his fascism. It=20 >has to do with his poetry. On Feb 16, 2008 6:02=20 >PM, amy king wrote: > I=20 >realize that people dismiss Pound or ignore the=20 >work because of his > antisemitism, which is=20 >quite an understandable reaction. The problem=20 >is > that, even today in these "enlightened=20 >times", yet another article appeared >=20 >attempting to pardon and dismiss Pound's=20 >antisemitism in an effort to > position him as=20 >"the greatest poet of the last century" -- this=20 >ongoing > trend to excuse his fascism and render=20 >it invisible, as well as forgoing any >=20 >examination of how his fascism informed his=20 >poetics, is political by its > very nature,=20 >historical, and part of what sustains his=20 >popularity. > Separating the work from Pound's=20 >politics, whether to dismiss his work or to >=20 >celebrate it, a) ignores how The Cantos in some=20 >ways betrays Pound's fascism > and b) allows a=20 >receptive audience to ignore the subversive=20 >fascist > practices that inform his work and=20 >simultaneously (& ignorantly) celebrate > those=20 >practices. > > It is well worth examining how=20 >his fascism informed his work as well as >=20 >studying other political practices that he used=20 >to his benefit but publicly > named and=20 >condemned -- his politics proper are an attempt=20 >to deny the > conflicting politics* of his=20 >work. Why? As noted by Bernstein, "It is >=20 >scary to see the degree to which fascist ideas=20 >have rooted > themselves so deeply in mainstream=20 >American life, often in the guise of > family=20 >values and consonance with a natural order.=20 >Pound's most fascist > polemics resonate in an=20 >eery way with the current wave of attacks on >=20 >the arts, gays, the disenfranchised poor,=20 >immigrants, feminism, and the > cities. I say=20 >this because there is often a tendency among=20 >Americans to > exoticize fascism; Pound did his=20 >best to bring it home." > > Amy > > >=20 >* "Pound's great achievement was to create a=20 >work using ideological > swatches from many=20 >social and historical sectors of his own society=20 >and > an immense variety of other cultures. This=20 >complex, polyvocal > textuality was the result=20 >of his search =97 his unrequited desire for =97 >=20 >deeper truths than could be revealed by more=20 >monadically organized > poems operating with a=20 >single voice and a single perspective. But >=20 >Pound's ideas about what mediated these=20 >different materials are often > at odds with how=20 >these types of textual practices actually work=20 >in The > Cantos. > > > > Pound's fascist=20 >ideology insists on the author's having an >=20 >extraliterary point of 'special knowledge' that=20 >creates a phallic order > (these are Pound's=20 >terms) over the female chaos of conflicting >=20 >ideological material. As Robert Casillo points=20 >out in his study of > Pound's antisemitism,=20 >Pound contrasts the phallocentric/logocentric >=20 >unswerving pivot (citing Wang in canto 97:=20 >'man's phallic heart is from > heaven / a clear=20 >spring of rightness') with the castrated and=20 >nomadic > Jew. Jews are the purveyors of=20 >fragmentation and therefore the > dissolution of=20 >fixed hierarchical cultural values (the Jews,=20 >says Pound > on the radio, want to 'blot out the=20 >classics, blot out the record'). > Again, Jews,=20 >as usurers and in league with the Commies,=20 >represent 'an > indistinct, rootless,=20 >destructive mass' eroding the agrarian ideal=20 >of > homestead, of nature and private property=20 >(values Pound equates with > order, clarity,=20 >telos). " > > "=85As Casillo con cludes, 'Pound=20 >turned to Fascism because he shares > not only=20 >its deep fear of indeterminacy' =97 of the vague,=20 >inchoate, and > incommensurable, of all that is=20 >mysterious or ambiguous or unknown =97 > 'but also=20 >its central desire, which is to banish the=20 >indeterminate from > social life =85 And as in=20 >Fascism, in Pound's work the ultimate sign of >=20 >such fearful [indefiniteness] is the=20 >Jew.' > > > > What grotesque views for someone=20 >whose work is filled with > indeterminacy,=20 >fragmentation, abstraction, obscurity,=20 >verbiage, > equivocation, ambiguity, allegory;=20 >who has made the highest art of > removing=20 >ideologies from their origins and creating for=20 >them a nomadic > economy whose roots are neither=20 >in the land nor in the property but > rather in=20 >the abstraction of aestheticization and the=20 >irresolution of > the jarring harmonies of=20 >incommensurable sounds. As Richard Sieburth >=20 >has noted, the ultimate irony of The Cantos is=20 >that all its > irreconcilable elements can be=20 >reconciled only in the abstract, by the >=20 >authority of the author, on credit. Indeed, the=20 >real economy of The > Cantos is the one Pound=20 >constantly struggled to repress and to lay >=20 >bare: the economy of reader and writer and book;=20 >the economy of > language not as Logos but as=20 >exchange. =85" > > > > > >=20 >http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0802&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D1&= O=3DA&X=3D7F0135200A3950BB1F&Y=3Dpoetics.list%40gmail.com&P=3D40275 =20 > > > _______ > Blog > >=20 >http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > > > >=20 >___________________________________________________________________________= _________ =20 > > Be a better friend, newshound, and >=20 >know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. >=20 >http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ =20 > > >=20 >___________________________________________________________________________= _________=20 >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all=20 >with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it=20 >now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:30:16 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <716196.53722.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi Amy - I get what you're saying about the sidelining of Pound's politics in the weighing of his work. All the same, I am not at all sure that you can simpl= y identify Pound's poetry as "fascist". Surely the "easy and popular" (and most common) option is simply to dismiss his poetry? And beyond the crudest of agitprop, can you really identify artworks as "fascist" or "democratic" or whatever with any sense of certainty? Surely one of the most interesting things that Bernstein has to say is that Pound's practice as a poet profoundly contradicts his politics? ("I do not, however, equate Pound's politics with Pound's poetry. The Cantos is in many ways radically (radially) at odds with the tenets of his fascist ideals.") I wholly agree with that statement, and I think it's most evident when the poet in the poe= m confronts his own failures and finitudes - in the Pisan Cantos for example or towards the end, his intellectual and poetic structures collapses under those impossible contradictions. Myself, I find those fractures moving ("Beauty is difficult") and deeply interesting. And as I said earlier, I think that acknowledging Pound's achievements requires whatever is the opposite of denial: it can only be seen clearly with its contradictions acknowledged within the "messy world". All best A On Feb 17, 2008 10:25 AM, amy king wrote: > I find it conveniently dismissive to separate the two. His politics > informed his poetry. It would be nice if our "artist" lives could sit on= a > shelf, untainted by the messy world and its viewpoints, while our regular > persons walked around, enacting our political views, readying to be shelv= ed > when the artist comes out to play, but these compartmentalizations aren't > possible. This complex connectedness is why tastes and styles and > practices range and often reflect our socio-economic and ethnic identitie= s > (to put it perhaps too simplistically), as well as reflecting our politic= s > proper. Even "safe", "simple", "accessible" "mainstream" poetries promo= te > political practices and predilections. > > Celebrating and promoting Pound's work without considering and examining > how his fascism informed his poetry is a dangerous position to defend. I= t's > also popular and easy. > > Amy > > _______ > Blog > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 6:07:53 PM > Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" > > > I > still > find > this > a > moot > argument. > Whether > Pound > is > the > greatest > poet > of > the > last > century > has > nothing > to > do > with > his > fascism. > It > has > to > do > with > his > poetry. > > On > Feb > 16, > 2008 > 6:02 > PM, > amy > king > > wrote: > > > > I > realize > that > people > dismiss > Pound > or > ignore > the > work > because > of > his > > > antisemitism, > which > is > quite > an > understandable > reaction. > The > problem > is > > > that, > even > today > in > these > "enlightened > times", > yet > another > article > appeared > > > attempting > to > pardon > and > dismiss > Pound's > antisemitism > in > an > effort > to > > > position > him > as > "the > greatest > poet > of > the > last > century" > -- > this > ongoing > > > trend > to > excuse > his > fascism > and > render > it > invisible, > as > well > as > forgoing > any > > > examination > of > how > his > fascism > informed > his > poetics, > is > political > by > its > > > very > nature, > historical, > and > part > of > what > sustains > his > popularity. > > > Separating > the > work > from > Pound's > politics, > whether > to > dismiss > his > work > or > to > > > celebrate > it, > a) > ignores > how > The > Cantos > in > some > ways > betrays > Pound's > fascism > > > and > b) > allows > a > receptive > audience > to > ignore > the > subversive > fascist > > > practices > that > inform > his > work > and > simultaneously > (& > ignorantly) > celebrate > > > those > practices. > > > > > It > is > well > worth > examining > how > his > fascism > informed > his > work > as > well > as > > > studying > other > political > practices > that > he > used > to > his > benefit > but > publicly > > > named > and > condemned > -- > his > politics > proper > are > an > attempt > to > deny > the > > > conflicting > politics* > of > his > work. > Why? > As > noted > by > Bernstein, > "It > is > > > scary > to > see > the > degree > to > which > fascist > ideas > have > rooted > > > themselves > so > deeply > in > mainstream > American > life, > often > in > the > guise > of > > > family > values > and > consonance > with > a > natural > order. > Pound's > most > fascist > > > polemics > resonate > in > an > eery > way > with > the > current > wave > of > attacks > on > > > the > arts, > gays, > the > disenfranchised > poor, > immigrants, > feminism, > and > the > > > cities. > I > say > this > because > there > is > often > a > tendency > among > Americans > to > > > exoticize > fascism; > Pound > did > his > best > to > bring > it > home." > > > > > Amy > > > > > > > * > "Pound's > great > achievement > was > to > create > a > work > using > ideological > > > swatches > from > many > social > and > historical > sectors > of > his > own > society > and > > > an > immense > variety > of > other > cultures. > This > complex, > polyvocal > > > textuality > was > the > result > of > his > search > =97 > his > unrequited > desire > for > =97 > > > deeper > truths > than > could > be > revealed > by > more > monadically > organized > > > poems > operating > with > a > single > voice > and > a > single > perspective. > But > > > Pound's > ideas > about > what > mediated > these > different > materials > are > often > > > at > odds > with > how > these > types > of > textual > practices > actually > work > in > The > > > Cantos. > > > > > > > > > Pound's > fascist > ideology > insists > on > the > author's > having > an > > > extraliterary > point > of > 'special > knowledge' > that > creates > a > phallic > order > > > (these > are > Pound's > terms) > over > the > female > chaos > of > conflicting > > > ideological > material. > As > Robert > Casillo > points > out > in > his > study > of > > > Pound's > antisemitism, > Pound > contrasts > the > phallocentric/logocentric > > > unswerving > pivot > (citing > Wang > in > canto > 97: > 'man's > phallic > heart > is > from > > > heaven > / > a > clear > spring > of > rightness') > with > the > castrated > and > nomadic > > > Jew. > Jews > are > the > purveyors > of > fragmentation > and > therefore > the > > > dissolution > of > fixed > hierarchical > cultural > values > (the > Jews, > says > Pound > > > on > the > radio, > want > to > 'blot > out > the > classics, > blot > out > the > record'). > > > Again, > Jews, > as > usurers > and > in > league > with > the > Commies, > represent > 'an > > > indistinct, > rootless, > destructive > mass' > eroding > the > agrarian > ideal > of > > > homestead, > of > nature > and > private > property > (values > Pound > equates > with > > > order, > clarity, > telos). > " > > > > > "=85As > Casillo > con > cludes, > 'Pound > turned > to > Fascism > because > he > shares > > > not > only > its > deep > fear > of > indeterminacy' > =97 > of > the > vague, > inchoate, > and > > > incommensurable, > of > all > that > is > mysterious > or > ambiguous > or > unknown > =97 > > > 'but > also > its > central > desire, > which > is > to > banish > the > indeterminate > from > > > social > life > =85 > And > as > in > Fascism, > in > Pound's > work > the > ultimate > sign > of > > > such > fearful > [indefiniteness] > is > the > Jew.' > > > > > > > > > What > grotesque > views > for > someone > whose > work > is > filled > with > > > indeterminacy, > fragmentation, > abstraction, > obscurity, > verbiage, > > > equivocation, > ambiguity, > allegory; > who > has > made > the > highest > art > of > > > removing > ideologies > from > their > origins > and > creating > for > them > a > nomadic > > > economy > whose > roots > are > neither > in > the > land > nor > in > the > property > but > > > rather > in > the > abstraction > of > aestheticization > and > the > irresolution > of > > > the > jarring > harmonies > of > incommensurable > sounds. > As > Richard > Sieburth > > > has > noted, > the > ultimate > irony > of > The > Cantos > is > that > all > its > > > irreconcilable > elements > can > be > reconciled > only > in > the > abstract, > by > the > > > authority > of > the > author, > on > credit. > Indeed, > the > real > economy > of > The > > > Cantos > is > the > one > Pound > constantly > struggled > to > repress > and > to > lay > > > bare: > the > economy > of > reader > and > writer > and > book; > the > economy > of > > > language > not > as > Logos > but > as > exchange. > =85" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0802&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DA&X=3D7F0135200A3950BB1F&Y=3Dpoetics.list%40gmail.com&P=3D40275 > > > > > _______ > > > Blog > > > > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ___________ > > > Be > a > better > friend, > newshound, > and > > > know-it-all > with > Yahoo! > Mobile. > Try > it > now. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________= ____________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > --=20 Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:54:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lil Norton Subject: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cool ideas regarding the NPD, In the interim, there are at least two websites that serve SOME of the functions you are listing. Both Press Press Press ( http://presspresspress.blogspot.com/) and the DIY Poetry Publishing COOP ( http://diypublishing.blogspot.com/) have created small communities of DIYers where announcements and publications and contact infos are regularly exchanged, posted, archived. Certainly not the catalogue command center envisioned below, but spaces to frequent if you're not yet familiar. Cheers, http://lilnorton.blogspot.com _____________________________________ previously: Christophe Casamassima to POETICS show details 10:43 AM (9 hours ago) Reply This morning I had a burning idea. What if the reviews journal of self-published books, objects and ephemera were to coincide with a free distributor? The name kept rolling around in my head - No Press Distribution, or NPD. I think it would be best to outline such potential projects here, and hope to get feedback from members of the community. No Press Distribution "Pressless is Priceless" 1. First we begin by soliciting members of the poetry community for self-published books, pamphlets, chapbooks, objects, ephemera, etc. 2. We collect these publications in a database which will eventually become a web-based distributor like Small Press Distribution. I will build a website and update consistently. NPD will collect no fees for sales (we're not a consignment venture - god forbid!) 3. There will be an option for each title for on-line reviews, similar to the amazon.com model. I'm not sure what kind of period the physical journal of reviews will be distributed, but I think it would be conducive to saving paper if I create a CD-Rom version of the review journal, or keep it strictly web-based. In this case, ANYONE can review titles. I believe this option will be more democratic and expansive. 4. Each title will be linked to info about how to purchase or obtain it. There will be no central "housing"; the web-based distributor is merely a central catalogue. All business is directed toward the individual. 5. Naturally, no fees will be amassed by me, or anyone managing the web-content, catalogue, etc. 6. I do ask, though, that anyone who wants to submit titles for cataloging/review should send a copy to me. This is the basic skeleton. Firstly, I am trying to build a databse of people who want to send me materials. Let's try something first. 1. Send me an electronic copy (pdf, doc, rtf) of the description of the material(s) along with a scanned image/photo (if possible) of it/them. 2. Send me your name and address if you'd like to be informed about future updates to reviews/catalogue. Please write me if you have any questions. Any help is crucial and highly desired... Christophe Casamassima = Jim Kerr Guides Washington Fly Fishing Jim Kerr Guides - Year round fly fishing in Northwest and Olympic Peninsula. Steelhead, sea run cutthroat trout, saltwater salmon. River float fishing trips and river drift boat charters. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=b33e86e3d6ec4339ec366f96f0e31845 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:15:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution In-Reply-To: <20080216154354.857DB13F1C@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a great idea. it seems to me though that in order to avoid some of the general clearing house nature of a site like amazon that there might be a corps of reviewers available to review everything that gets submitted. It would still be possible for anyone to review work on the website, but perhaps the distributed CD-ROM or dead tree edition would ensure a review. I'm assuming that you would pretty much take all submissions for distribution and there wouldn't be a selection process. and that's a great thing, but still it seems the biggest risk is a wash of unfamiliar unknown material with no sense of how interesting or good it might be. One thing that I've found in my research into self publishing is that I really do't like the way a number of small presses copy verbatim the marketing techniques used by the large houses. The end result being it's often difficult to tell whether you want to read something or not. And when that something is, as often as not, a 20 dollar perfect bound chapbook size issue, I often opt not to take the risk. So the one rule i would suggest would be that persons affiliated with the publisher and author should be asked to identify themselves as such in online reviews, and further that there be a corps of critics identifiable as such who would between them review all incoming projects. On Feb 16, 2008, at 7:43 AM, Christophe Casamassima wrote: > This morning I had a burning idea. What if the reviews journal of > self-published books, objects and ephemera were to coincide with a > free distributor? The name kept rolling around in my head - No > Press Distribution, or NPD. I think it would be best to outline > such potential projects here, and hope to get feedback from members > of the community. > > No Press Distribution > "Pressless is Priceless" > > 1. First we begin by soliciting members of the poetry community for > self-published books, pamphlets, chapbooks, objects, ephemera, etc. > > 2. We collect these publications in a database which will > eventually become a web-based distributor like Small Press > Distribution. I will build a website and update consistently. NPD > will collect no fees for sales (we're not a consignment venture - > god forbid!) > > 3. There will be an option for each title for on-line reviews, > similar to the amazon.com model. I'm not sure what kind of period > the physical journal of reviews will be distributed, but I think it > would be conducive to saving paper if I create a CD-Rom version of > the review journal, or keep it strictly web-based. In this case, > ANYONE can review titles. I believe this option will be more > democratic and expansive. > > 4. Each title will be linked to info about how to purchase or > obtain it. There will be no central "housing"; the web-based > distributor is merely a central catalogue. All business is directed > toward the individual. > > 5. Naturally, no fees will be amassed by me, or anyone managing the > web-content, catalogue, etc. > > 6. I do ask, though, that anyone who wants to submit titles for > cataloging/review should send a copy to me. > > This is the basic skeleton. Firstly, I am trying to build a databse > of people who want to send me materials. Let's try something first. > > 1. Send me an electronic copy (pdf, doc, rtf) of the description of > the material(s) along with a scanned image/photo (if possible) of > it/them. > > 2. Send me your name and address if you'd like to be informed about > future updates to reviews/catalogue. > > Please write me if you have any questions. Any help is crucial and > highly desired... > > > Christophe Casamassima > > = > Jim Kerr Guides Washington Fly Fishing > Jim Kerr Guides - Year round fly fishing in Northwest and Olympic > Peninsula. Steelhead, sea run cutthroat trout, saltwater salmon. > River float fishing trips and river drift boat charters. > http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick? > redirectid=b33e86e3d6ec4339ec366f96f0e31845 > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:44:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem I always have with condemning Pound is the fact of his mental illness. I have no real interest in the debates about how sick he really was, but side with Papa when he wrote that he didn't think anybody could say the things that Pound said in his radio broadcasts and be a sane person. Clearly there was illness there, and the politics of his boosters and critics have unfortunately obscured the truth about how ill he really was. Still, mental illness and paranoia and the fear that results from it, that's horrible condition, and all sorts of repugnant beliefs I think can be understood and forgiven as a result. As for how that stuff impacts pounds work, i've often thought it was too easy to just call him an anti-semite and a fascist. He was most definitely those things. but like many very intelligent people who get involved in some movement or another, it's rarely the case that one can just assign the dogmas of the usual anti-semite and fascist to them. I think what makes pound so interesting is the very strangeness and uncommonness of his repugnant views. and I think there's value in examining them in detail because he reminds us that our enemies should not be dehumanized. that people with awful horrific utopias in their minds are not all cut from the same cloth and that each should be taken as an individual on his or her own merits. On Feb 16, 2008, at 11:56 AM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > This is probably irrelevant but years ago I read the anti-semitic > broad- casts; I've also heard a number of them. They were worse > than I could have imagined; they sounded like Celine at his most > extreme. What bothers me about Pound is the arrogance I connect > with these views, this notion of rectitude that underlies a lot of > his work. Although I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about, > those broadcasts - which clearly were not an anomaly, one can't > blame them on usury, Mussolini, whatever - wrecked his work for me. > If the polemic came from a Nazi like Goebbels it would be > considered inexcusable; since it's Pound, let's bend over > backwards? But there's real violence in him, American Father > Coughlin whatever violence, and on a personal note it was too much > for me. > > - A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:47:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080216170224.06c345a8@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank christ you don't have to think Gesualdo was a great guy to recognize his genius. Good example. On Feb 16, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Almost everyone takes exception to Pound's fascism. There are a > fair number of artists that one probably wouldn't like much in > person who are nonetheless great artists, despite their politics. > I'd personally put in that category almost all theistic writing, > let alone the casual antisemitism of Williams, Spicer, Eliot, the > anglo-Irish snobbery of Yeats, Wagner's general obnoxiousness and > of course his antisemitism, Celine, Gesualdo's murderousness, etc. > ad nauseam. Which is to say that artists aren't much different on > average from the rest of humanity. We go to them for their artistry > and whatever corners of wisdom they may have quaranteened off from > their viler pieces. We try to understand the connection of their > monstrousness to their work in order to better understand each. We > try not to see them as just this or that, but as complex beings (as > we'd wish to be seen ourselves) We grit our teeth a lot. We don't > invite them to dinner. > > And thankfully there are a few one can actually admire as human > beings. > > Mark > > At 03:24 PM 2/16/2008, you wrote: >> this article does not make the argument that pound's politics were >> misunderstood. rather it acknowledges quite frankly his support >> of mussolini and his anti-semitism, though this acknowledgment is >> buried near the end of the piece. so what is it that is >> "misunderstood" about pound here: the fact that he was more >> serious about learning Chinese than is usually believed? that's a >> tragic misunderstanding? it seems that pound's politics are all >> too well understood by those of us who take exception to them. >> >> amy king wrote: >>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast- >>> new-light-on-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html >>> >>> Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound >>> By Andrew Johnson >>> >>> Sunday, 3 February 2008 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Yet >>> while Eliot went on to become the leading critic and poet of his >>> day, >>> Pound's standing has been marred by his support for Mussolini, his >>> broadcasts over Rome radio during the Second World War and by his >>> anti-Semitism. >>> >>> >>> Now recently discovered letters by Pound have >>> added impetus to literary historians' reassessment of him as perhaps >>> the greatest poet of the last century whose political views were >>> tragically misunderstood. >>> >>> >>> Correspondence between Pound and >>> Chinese intellectuals over a period of more than 40 years Pound had >>> become fascinated with the country will shed new light on his >>> greatest work, The Cantos, and on his true political beliefs when >>> they >>> are published for the first time later this month. >>> >>> >>> They show his >>> painstaking efforts to learn Chinese and incorporate his learning >>> into >>> The Cantos and also document his move away from fascism and towards >>> Confucianism. >>> The correspondence also sheds new light on his >>> relationship with Eliot, who was also his publisher at Faber & >>> Faber. Pound described Eliot as a "buzzard" and an "elephant" and >>> said >>> he had a "head full of mouldy old Christianity". In letters to >>> Achilles >>> Fang, a Chinese intellectual at Harvard University, in January 1953, >>> Pound who wrote in an eccentric phonetic style reveals his >>> frustration at the delay in publication of his translation of the >>> Confucian odes. >>> >>> "ALZO a sample page might serve to satisfy the >>> Rev. Elephant [Eliot] who SAID Faber wd/take it on condition it >>> shd/LOOK like a two guinea book. Of course our eminent >>> contemporary is >>> a damn Xrister/and NOT keen on Oriental wisdom (or much else) BUT >>> he is >>> not wholly responsible for the goddam delay." >>> Pound's biographer, >>> A David Moody, says that the two remained great friends although >>> Eliot's high Anglicism was a bone of contention. "The relationship >>> between Eliot and Pound was very close, lasting throughout their >>> lives," he said. "There was a lot of affection. Pound suffered >>> because >>> of his politics. Now there is no doubt that Pound is the bigger >>> figure. >>> >>> >>> "He >>> did support Mussolini when Mussolini stood for social justice. His >>> tragedy was that he failed to see the change in Mussolini's >>> politics. >>> His anti-Semitism was a worse lapse. He wilfully confused usury with >>> Jews in order to sharpen his attack on anti-democratic capitalism." >>> >>> The >>> 162 letters were tracked down over 15 years by Professor Zhaoming >>> Qian >>> of the University of New Orleans. "For a long time people were >>> wary of >>> writing about Pound because of his fascist beliefs. From these >>> letters >>> we can see he realised his mistakes." >>> >>> >>> 'Ezra Pound's Chinese Friends' by Zhaoming Qian is out this month >>> from OUP >>> >>> >>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/letters-cast- >>> new-light-on-misunderstood-poet-ezra-pound-777552.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________________ >>> ________________ >>> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! >>> Mobile. Try it now. http:// >>> mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >>> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:52:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <478209.36475.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ginsberg was more than ready to give Pound a pass. And Pound did change. Doesn't the whole St. Elizabeth's episode seem revealing as there's much to indicate that Pound may have been suffering from acute mania. I don't think bi/polar is a glib excuse for Pound's behaviour, but it does help us to understand him. Really, when the Italians heard his broadcast they couldn't take him seriously because he was incoherent much of the time. amy king wrote: I realize that people dismiss Pound or ignore the work because of his antisemitism, which is quite an understandable reaction. The problem is that, even today in these "enlightened times", yet another article appeared attempting to pardon and dismiss Pound's antisemitism in an effort to position him as "the greatest poet of the last century" -- this ongoing trend to excuse his fascism and render it invisible, as well as forgoing any examination of how his fascism informed his poetics, is political by its very nature, historical, and part of what sustains his popularity. Separating the work from Pound's politics, whether to dismiss his work or to celebrate it, a) ignores how The Cantos in some ways betrays Pound's fascism and b) allows a receptive audience to ignore the subversive fascist practices that inform his work and simultaneously (& ignorantly) celebrate those practices. It is well worth examining how his fascism informed his work as well as studying other political practices that he used to his benefit but publicly named and condemned -- his politics proper are an attempt to deny the conflicting politics* of his work. Why? As noted by Bernstein, "It is scary to see the degree to which fascist ideas have rooted themselves so deeply in mainstream American life, often in the guise of family values and consonance with a natural order. Pound’s most fascist polemics resonate in an eery way with the current wave of attacks on the arts, gays, the disenfranchised poor, immigrants, feminism, and the cities. I say this because there is often a tendency among Americans to exoticize fascism; Pound did his best to bring it home." Amy * "Pound’s great achievement was to create a work using ideological swatches from many social and historical sectors of his own society and an immense variety of other cultures. This complex, polyvocal textuality was the result of his search — his unrequited desire for — deeper truths than could be revealed by more monadically organized poems operating with a single voice and a single perspective. But Pound’s ideas about what mediated these different materials are often at odds with how these types of textual practices actually work in The Cantos. Pound’s fascist ideology insists on the author’s having an extraliterary point of ’special knowledge’ that creates a phallic order (these are Pound’s terms) over the female chaos of conflicting ideological material. As Robert Casillo points out in his study of Pound’s antisemitism, Pound contrasts the phallocentric/logocentric unswerving pivot (citing Wang in canto 97: ‘man’s phallic heart is from heaven / a clear spring of rightness’) with the castrated and nomadic Jew. Jews are the purveyors of fragmentation and therefore the dissolution of fixed hierarchical cultural values (the Jews, says Pound on the radio, want to ‘blot out the classics, blot out the record’). Again, Jews, as usurers and in league with the Commies, represent ‘an indistinct, rootless, destructive mass’ eroding the agrarian ideal of homestead, of nature and private property (values Pound equates with order, clarity, telos). ” “…As Casillo con cludes, ‘Pound turned to Fascism because he shares not only its deep fear of indeterminacy’ — of the vague, inchoate, and incommensurable, of all that is mysterious or ambiguous or unknown — ‘but also its central desire, which is to banish the indeterminate from social life … And as in Fascism, in Pound’s work the ultimate sign of such fearful [indefiniteness] is the Jew.’ What grotesque views for someone whose work is filled with indeterminacy, fragmentation, abstraction, obscurity, verbiage, equivocation, ambiguity, allegory; who has made the highest art of removing ideologies from their origins and creating for them a nomadic economy whose roots are neither in the land nor in the property but rather in the abstraction of aestheticization and the irresolution of the jarring harmonies of incommensurable sounds. As Richard Sieburth has noted, the ultimate irony of The Cantos is that all its irreconcilable elements can be reconciled only in the abstract, by the authority of the author, on credit. Indeed, the real economy of The Cantos is the one Pound constantly struggled to repress and to lay bare: the economy of reader and writer and book; the economy of language not as Logos but as exchange. …” http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0802&L=poetics&D=1&O=A&X=7F0135200A3950BB1F&Y=poetics.list%40gmail.com&P=40275 _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:31:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: query Comments: To: poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Anybody recently read One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? Please backchannel--I need help with a possible reference in a translation I'm working on. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:12:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Dworkin/Bernstein reading at Columbia (NY) 2/21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig Dworkin & I will be reading this Thursday Feb. 21 at 7pm at Columbia University (New York). Room will be announced by Wednesday check here: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/newpoetry/ ----- http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:48:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Bernstein on Pound--Excerpts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *David Chirot* Date: Feb 16, 2008 1:25 PM Subject: Re: Bernstein on Pound - Excerpts To: david.chirot@gmail.com Dear Amy: Many thanks for your posting this-- it connects with some things I thought of earlier re Pound which are a bit different way of thinking abt him than had been brought up previously here, and also some ideas re fascism and American poetry which have to do with their situations in the USA as they have devolved over the last 28 years. First, a quote from Leonard Peltier, the AIM activist and political prisone= r of the Federal Government of the USA. The government under pretext of security and progress liberated us from our land, resources, culture, dignity and future. They violated every treaty they ever made with us. I use the word "liberated" loosely and sarcastically, in the same vein that I view the use of the words "collatera= l damage" when they kill innocent men, women and children. They describe people defending their homelands as terrorists, savages and hostiles . . . My words reach out to the non-Indian: Look now before it is too late=97see what is being done to others in your name and see what destruction you sanction when you say nothing. =97Leonard Peltier, Annual Message January 2004 In contrast to this, here's a quote from Dr Bernstein and the context in which it occurred: On 29 December 2006, Saddam Hussein was hung in Baghdad , and, outside Philadelphia, at an MLA "off site" reading, roughly 60 American poets celebrated each other s works, and Dr Marjorie Perloff's becoming the new President of the MLA, With Dr Perloff's Presidency, the general consensus was that the long dark ages of cultural studies were over with, and a new era of focus on poetics would begin. "What we're interested in is talking about these works as works of art, rather than extracting the sociological or historical information from them", Charles Bernstein explained to Susan Snyder in that day's issue of the Philadelphia Inquirer, in a story headlining the rise in jobs and importance of poetry and creative writing programs in the nation's institutions of higher learning. One wondered if there might not be some kind of connection between "talking about these works as works of art," while not "extracting the sociological and historical information from them," and the rise in jobs and numbers of and importance of poetry and creative writing programs. What exactly is meant by "talking about these works as works of art, rather than extracting the sociological and historical information from them" in relation with Peltier's "Look now before it is too late--see what is being done to others in your name and see what destruction you sanction when you say nothing." This is the question that was asked of and is asked of still--the intellectuals and artists in Europe and England who remained disengaged, saying nothing, as Japan invaded China, Italy invaded Ethiopia, Franco's Falange invaded the Spanish Republic and Hitler steadily annexed the Sudetenland, Austria, Czechoslovakia and was beginning the disappearances o= f peoples into camps and ovens, while Stalin was carrying out his mass purges in the USSR. It's a question, as Leonard Peltier warns, that needs to be asked of American intellectuals and artists today. . In reading Peltier's words about the American government's treatment of and rhetoric regarding the Indian, one recognizes the daily barrage of propaganda, lies, and Internationally recognized illegal military force, torture, imprisonments, renditions, land grabs, total societal destructions by the USA and its heavily US funded allies as carried out in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon, with threats of the same to Syria and Iran. As Leonard Peltier says--see what destruction is being done in your name, see what you sanction when you do and say nothing In the December 2006-January 2007 issue of the Poetry Project Newsletter, Amiri Baraka wrote a piece called "Why American Poetry is So Boring, Again.= " Baraka notes that in the current situation, there is a desire for al the comforts of Homeland Security and an eschewing of the poetry of "the actual." Baraka writes of the poets' "desire to be in the social diarrheic of society's value and meaning, and "the "blunt consideration" of playing i= t safe, of not "saying something", to protect one's career Baraka writes: This isn't limited to the "Academic Cowards of Reaction" . . . These (poets= ) would include certain crypto-Babbits=97of the so-called L*A*N*G*U*G*E poets whose theoretical quasi "left" masquerade seeks to obscure a limp conservatism that opposes political activism by artists (e.g. Ginsberg) as an "impossible ideology". And with that their dullness to be construed as profoundly arty . . . In the cases I speak of poetry has become the devil's tail waggling flashil= y out of Bush's behind, like Gerald 2X's 60's devil cartoons. One wonders, is it still called "high art"? Now too high to deal with the angst, pain and ignorance of the real world though certainly an obtuse registry of it. Content with the masturbatory, inoffensiveness of an actual *loyal opposition*, inferred loudly as "deep intellectualism". Childish feints at surrealism, jokey pop art, the inside jokes for the uncognescenti, all pass as wow! poetry!1 Where Peltier sees and hears the sanctioning of "saying and doing nothing," Baraka sees and hears a kind of career driven "playing it safe" and jokey noisiness with which to hide the "saying nothing." It's safe in this climate to attack Pound's anti-Semitism=97Israel after al= l is our closest ally=97but when it comes to his fascism, or, that is, the fascism as it exists today and here, fascism is refused to be seen as apart from anti-Semitism., rather than as a corporate-state war machine which wil= l use any pretext to set itself in motion=97whether it be non existent WMDs i= n Iraq or the pre-emption of any form of nuclear energy in Iran, or almost an= y thing done on any given day by any one in Palestine or Lebanon, or the reappearance of autonomously directed social changes in Latin America. I don't know how many persons here have actually listened to Pound's broadcasts--but they are truly horrific hate filled violence driven pronunciamentos of the worst kind. Yet, as much as they make one feel like vomiting,or worse, they are in a sense the precursors of so much of the public discourse of the post 9/11 period of American history. Hate speech, propaganda, disinformation, the ever greater corporate-state fascism of the USA and its almost entirely militarized economy, backed up by media that is steadily churning out war mongering and the most distorted fantasies imaginable, while the country itself slides into ever greater personal and public debt and ruin When I last listened to Pound I kept in mind the American media of especially the last 7 years. How much of the daily rhetoric on screen, in the air waves in the newspapers and magazines, is not all that far from the rhetorics and acts of violence, hatred, bigotry, distorted and manipulated dis information that Pound is pouring forth in such hyper drive arrogance, authority and righteousness. And aren't these latter really qualities not only associated with Authoritarianism and Nazism but by a good part of the world with Americans? Arrogance=97righteousness=97hyperdrive=97the instant= , ignorant judgments, the blindness to any suffering but their own? Regarding Pound--I think it's interesting that it's hardly ever mentioned that he was a traitor, convicted of the crime of treason, and that's the reason he was in St Elizabeth's. A great deal of time and energy and verbiage is expended on Pound'= s fascism and anti-Semitism, his economic theories, his contributions to poetic invention and form, to the study of poetry and the reading of it, but very little is said about his treason. On the one hand, the treason, which used to be a capital offense, is overlooked as delusional, while his other so-called delusions of the period are elevated to the status of crime= s so heinous death itself would not be punishment enough. Treason, betrayal--acts which historically have been at every level from the intimately personal to the publicly broadcasted among the very mos= t appalling things one can do to those who most trusted one--are demoted to a near irrelevance, a "delusion" in the "fog of war," in which the poet "really did think he was trying to do right" by duped American soldiers. Ironically, Pound's case has been reverse engineered into that of Jonathan Pollard, currently serving a life sentence for the greatest and most devastating theft and sale of American intelligence in history. For years this act of treason greatly damaged the most sensitive areas of the America= n military preparedness. And for years now American Presidents have been lobbied harder and harder to pardon Pollard, with the argument that since h= e sold al the secrets to Israel, an ally, he was not really committing treason. In fact, it is argued at times, he should really be regarded as a hero. During Pound's stay at Saint Elizabeth's, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed for treason in the electric chair. Of course, they were accused of passing secrets to the Russian Commies, the Public Enemy Number One of those heady McCarthy Era days. It might be interesting in these even headier Global War on Terror days to examine the ways in which Pound's treason has been overlooked in light of his fascism and anti-Semitism and Pollard's far worse treason is to be overlooked for its deeper allegiance to Israel, Ally Number One. I think Pound's authoritarianism needs to be thought of also in terms of his lifelong interest in Confucius, and the forms of society and teachings and core curriculum (the Analects and the Classics for example--) as set up by Confucianism as Pound understands it and not simply and solely in light of Dr Bernstein's "righteously Eurocentric and imperiously authoritative undercurrent." Confucianism, as has often been studied and pointed out, had a great influence on many aspects of Maoism. The kind of authoritarianism Pound was interested in was much more complex than its usual reduction to the vaguely gestured at bogeyman invoked by Dr Bernstein and others. And re Pound's lifelong fascination with China and "the Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, " "Cathay" and Confucianism--the possibility of examining these in terms of Edward Said's Orientalism, and the historical linking of Sino-American Cultural Exchanges as taking place within the historical contexts of the changing dynamics of the Sino-American economic and material exchanges from the China Clippers to Pound's time to the present, with last year's Conferences on American Poetr= y in China, which featured one on Language Poetry with Dr Bernstein among others giving presentations, and this year's founding of the 'The Chinese/American Association for Poetry and Poetics (CAAP), This, as its press release notes is "initiated by Marjorie Perloff, Charles Bernstein, and Nie Zhenzhao," and was "established in January 2008 with its headquarters at Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing, University of Pennsylvania, USA. " Pound's interest in China began roughly with the period of the rise of the greatest American influence in China, and by the time this collapsed he was in St Elizabeth's, and Confucianism in China had been subsumed into the rubric of Maoism. In a late interview, Pound was to praise Walt Disney as the creator of a form of international ideogramatic Confucian teaching, Indeed, "the Confucian side of Disney", as Pound called it, might even be seen as a kind of prevision of the current "Disney side o= f Confucius" one may find in Dr Bernstein's obsessive photos of the malaprop English translations of Chinese signs already great favorites with tourists on their trips to the American Disneyworld of China which they are able to find in of all places China. I think one can say that to some extent the Americans, at least, are influenced by Pound's historical poetic example in the recent rapprochements with their Chinese colleagues, while noting also that the Americans' "radical, innovative poetry" must be for the Chinese a Paper Tiger compared to those of their own poetries which they suppress. After all, the Chinese Government, which so carefully monitors and controls the network receptions and the surveillance and management of its citizenry, is not going to allow them to be receiving any but the most innocuous of American intellectual imports, ones not obviously and immediately et alone long and slowly thought through to be associated with the kinds of ideas that the Government does not want to have its own citizens thinking. And amazingly, the American Government obviously feels the same way= , that it is being represented by a perfectly safe product that will be easil= y accepted and perhaps become rapidly and widely accepted and make inroads into the immensity of the Chinese market which has forever been the biggest dream of American entrepreneurs to conquer, or at least "get the foot insid= e the door of." The "failure" of the Cantos to "cohere" as a Totalizing system is something that Pound shares with Einstein and the physicist's inability to realize his lifelong quest for the Unified Field Theory. A lot of 20th Century thought is concerned with finding "unifying" systems, slogans, images, ideas, personages, fields, constructions. (Dr Bernstein's own work and career is an example of a project of this kind, for instance.) At the same time, there are the immense collapses of systems, traditions, territories, modes of thinking and art, and a shattering into fragments. The tensions among these elements have grown greater since Pound's time, an= d so have, in Dr Bernstein's rather vague terms, "the fascist ideas that infect his poetry and poetics" which "seep unnamed into the orthodox cultural theory and criticism of this society." Personally, I think those fascist ideas are present not only in Pound and orthodox "cultural theory and criticism," but throughout the vast field= s of American theory and criticism, no matter how "radical," "difficult," an= d "oppositional" they may see and say themselves to be. If there's a really distinguishing feature of American thinking and theory whether mainstream or "aco-dominant" as Bob Grumman calls it, it's in an overall conformity an= d obeisance and fealty to figures of Authority in any given field. . It is astounding at times to read through responses or reviews to certain works or statements by recognized Authorities whether theyare artists, poets, lawyers, polticians, economists, etc If the person has a ceratin degree of clout--the responses are overwhelmingly, unquestioningly not only vavorable but almost embarasingly sychophantic and filled with a sense of near "shock and awe" bedazzlement. And if anyone dares to criticize the Authority or even suggest that perhaps their performance was not perfect--woe be unto them. They have announced themselves as one of the remaining actual humans stil hiding out in terror among the pods in an Invasion of the Body Snatchers like society. Pound's example is interesting in this regard, for he sees the Roman fasci reembodied in Mussolini and his own invoking of Confucius and various American "alternative" or "suppressed" economists as a form of stability opposed to the kinds of instability he sees in (then) contemporary New Deal America. In this he was like another ultra-reactionary, Gertrude Stein, who wanted to turn the clock back to before the first Roosevelt and was living in France quite well through the War due to a collaborationist close friend and admirer. Stein didn't approve of America's economic policies any more than did Pound, and was perfectly satisfied to live the good life in a collaborationist supported expatriate fashion as was EP. The difference between the two is that Pound was willing to openly fight via propaganda of the word against his country and make an appeal to its soldiers to come over to the Fascist side. In short, he was an outrigh= t traitor, rather than a kind of distanced collaborator. Thanks to Alison for her comments re Pound on economics and militarism--for ironically enough, isn't it borrowing and interest debts on credit cards that are going through the roof for a huge number of Americans= , as well as the insane military-driven national debt? A huge chunk of which is owed to--China, of course! I think it might help perhaps to find ways out of the seemingly endlessly repeated either/or's with Pound and his work to expand the range of ways of examining these. I think the connections with China especially in today's world are very interesting to think on. An issue which is relate= d with the Chinese influences in Pound is of course translation=97or mis and perhaps dis translation, via his self proclaimed ability to read the ideograms directly, without any prior knowledge, as well as the ways in which he employed Fenollossa's own misreadings and mistranslations as gospel truths. It is interesting to note, as always in cross-cultural exchanges, ho= w much that is considered "truth" may well be based on the development throug= h time of an accidental or deliberate "untruth," that is, a mis or distranslations. It is in this area that translation and interpretations o= f Authority become reshaped to fit the needs of the one appropriating them, a= s well as causing, in a response in order to undo the negative effects, a change in the original culture's language and images, in order to elude these forms of appropriation, colonization and the Authoritative claims of = a rival. Foreign. proprietorship based on "evidences" which may or may not have a relation with something which may or not have once existed. The Chinese underwent a hideous, horrific and humiliating very long period of colonialism and Imperialist foreign dominations and occupations, and one wonders in what hopefully very interesting ways the cultural exchanges will be affecting the partner nations. It will be interesting also to find out how the Americans manage to present themselves as a "democracy" after two rigged elections and the imperialist invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and their support for repressive regimes around the world In his working with the ideograms and the seeking a relationship with a visual script outside of the English language, Pound is carrying on the Emersonian era's fascination with the Egyptian hieroglyphs, making thei= r first appearances in tours in the United States just before the American renaissance really began, and the later study of the Mayan hieroglyphs by Charles Olson and to a lesser extent William S Burroughs. This visual poetry connection has led eventually beyond other languages and in to the creation of asemic and Letrriste scripts, and vast proliferations of ways o= f presenting language without the use of words or alphabets. What is interesting with Pound is his seeing the Confucian side of Disney=97an awareness of animation as a language of international communication for the transmission of "right thinking" messages, and also his making use of his own personal as well as Fenollossa's mistranslations with which to create his own versions of an imagined "Cathay" and "Confucius." This imagined realm I do think may be examined via the historcialAmerican ways of framing China and as well within the context of Said's Orientalism and the history of the oppression of China via Westernized images of Chinese traditions and existence projected on to the Chinese, and how in turn Chinese have responded. Is Pound's understanding of the Confucian side of Disney a sinister insight into Control via mass media in the guise of imagery at the time associated with children primarily? Or is he thinking of a benign and instructive introduction into the ethical ways of living life best suited to the structures of the society? I also think that fascism itself needs to be defined in the discussions as it is not always very clear what persons mean by the term. For example, Dr Bernstein uses the word a lot, without ever making it very clear what exactly he means by it. It seems to be more of a floating collection of stereotypes than carefully analyzed and understood varieties of methods for developing what is currently taking shape in the USA--a State more and mor= e concentrated in the figure of the Chief Executive, and in the closest alliance with the globalized corporations which increasingly are given the privatized tasks of what used to be the functions of the government--the military, National Security, Disaster Reconstruction, Management and Accounting, records keeping, surveillance, the policing of borders, the construction and guarding of interior gated communities and Green Zones, th= e privatizing of the education system, the lack of health care and the massive transfer of public funding into the hands of an ever smaller group of ever more powerful people. Due in large part to its name, National Socialist Workers Party, there is thought to have been a "socialist" element in Nazism. (Critics on the Right like Jonah Goldberg use this to link Nazism to liberalism.) Yet, as Michael Parenti has pointed out, the actual treatment, wages and laws governing workers in Nazi Germany were anything but Socialist. Wages declined under the Nazis, there was no right to unionize, strike, organize in any way outside of the Party, and harsh punishments were carried out for minor infractions in order to make sure the workers understood their complete loss of individuality and individual freedoms in the service of th= e corporate-state's militarized industries. It was not Socialism which Nazism most resembled, but the current state of a great deal of the American economy as applied at home and abroad= , with its dependence on slave labor, the abolish of as many unions as possible, the removal of as many constraints and safety restrictions as possible, the seizure of lands and fuel by force, and the control of countries through the manipulation of debt=97al these weapons used aboard b= y the American economists that have returned in a blowback effect. One of the reasons I think fascism needs to be reexamined in this light is that fascism itself does not automatically guarantee the presence of anti-Semitism, as Dr Bernstein and those he quotes seem to assume it does. The United States is becoming a corporate-State fascist society with ever more surveillance and control over every aspect of the life of not only its citizens at home and aboard but of basically any person on the planet's human and civil rights, which have been effectively cancelled if they are merely designated as a terrorist or enemy combatant, regardless of evidence or lack there of. And the fascist state that the USA is becoming has as its sworn-to greatest ally the state of Israel. The descriptions by and quoted by Dr Bernstein o= f the Jews in relation to Pound can just as well be given for the Palestinian= s in relation to the Israelis, or the American Indians in relation to the Federal Government. After all, aren't the Palestinians, Bedouins, American Indians routinel= y depicted as? 'an indistinct, rootless, destructive mass' eroding the agrarian ideal of homestead, of nature and private property (values Pound equates with order, clarity, telos). " Golda Meier in 1969 famously said that "there never was such a thing as a Palestinian." Is not this "never such a thing" as a Palestinian or an Indian of the Americas North and South, that indeterminacy which Bernstein quotes Casillo writing of in terms of? 'Pound turned to Fascism because he shares not only its deep fear of indeterminacy' -- of the vague, inchoate, and incommensurable, of all that is mysterious or ambiguous or unknown -- 'but also its central desire, which is to banish the indeterminate from social life ... Yet Casillo, rather than perceiving the really immense dangers of the attraction of fascism to any one at all, limits it, meaning that anyone other than an anti-Semite is not able to be a fascist. Yet how many fascist dictatorships has not the USA supported whose raging hatreds were directed at the Indians, the peasants, the working class, the students and the Unions? Casillo finishes: And as in Fascism, in Pound's work the ultimate sign of such fearful [indefiniteness] is the Jew.' Yet how many fascist dictatorships has not the USA supported whose raging hatreds were directed at the Indians, the peasants, the working class, the students and the Unions? And who are the most hated of the new American fascism's enemies? The Muslim=97and the Mexican, the illegal immigrants. I think to truly understand the role that fascism plays in our lives today, fascism needs to be understood as an ideology which is capable of being perfectly independent of anti-Semitism. This is not to deny at all the historical connections between many fascisms and anti-Semitism. Rather, it is to expand the understanding and examination of fascism as an ideology which can be made use of by anyone, by any society choosing to construct itself almost solely along the lines of "National Security" and the permanent state of war that is the Global War on Terror. I think in Pound's attraction there is much more going on than the Authoritarianism of fascism. There is the great influence throughout his work of Confucius and his readings in the Chinese classics in poetry and philosophy. In this regard, Pound was very much part of an overlooked time in American cultural history that is its first efforts to translate and understand Japanese and Chinese poetry and philosophy. It was during this same period that in China and Japan the firth major influences of Western art and literature and philosophy are being put into action. These trans cultural exchanges a century ago are today creating ever constantly wider reaching contexts, in which Pound's work, with all its faults in translatio= n and understandings, interpretations, may be examined as having played an important part, from at least an American and European perspective, and wha= t one begins to learn of the Chinese perspective may indeed greatly effect th= e Western ideas of Pound's work. I think that the very great and grave danger in shifting fascism solely to a relationship with blatant anti-Semitism is that this diverts one from seeing the fascism in one's own society, one's own everyday life, and in th= e manipulations of one's regarding what indeed fascism itself is. For if the definition precludes its happening here or among our allies, then, indeed, this makes the fascist takeover of the society as legal and out in the ope= n as Hitler's was in the beginning. For it would not be, and has not been, recognized as fascist. George Bush twice has employed tactics in elections shadier than Hitler used to get into power. Yet as Leonard Peltier says, no one says anything. Each day new laws are passed which strip away more freedoms, more possibilities of asking questions, more and more persons feel it is far better to just take the word of experts, authorities, "leading figures," an= d the like. No one is even questioning why it is the Chinese might find Language Poetry so harmless in such a tightly controlled society, or why it is Americans continue to think they are possessed of a "radical" poetry, le= t alone an "innovative" one? And why the interest in China on the part of scholars and poets who are not Chinese scholars or translators? Again, one wonders if it not the ever present American Chinese dream of vast untapped markets, endless areas of exploitation awaiting. And it will be tacitly agreed that on no one's part will there be any criticism of each other's control and surveillance obsessed regimes. I think that in these contexts there is yet a very great deal more to be thought about in regards to Pound, to American Orientalism and the cross cultural exchanges between China and America and Europe, as well as how these are re-inflected through the immense shifts in the economic relationships among the countries. This is a period of great shifts and it requires I think a greater openness and awareness of the ranges of such questions as fascism and poetry than have so far really been much examined in the United States. For after all in our fascist times, in what ways has the language of poetry being saying nothing, or saying things which are way= s of avoiding saying things which need to be said? In what ways has Pound been an example for American poetries of every kind and in what ways has his work been used to cut off the asking of various questions which would uncomfortably reveal the forms of competing Authoritarianism and control which seek to use Pound to their own advantage in breaking down various aspects of poetry and its canon they do not approv= e of. In a bizarre way, by using Pound as an anti-Semitic fascist, is it not possible to be creating a kind of fascism that is intended to be the revers= e of his? And yet is it not always fascism, whether anti or pro Semitic, anti or pro American anti or pro Chilean, Uruguayan, Brazilian, Guatemalan=97 Is it not always fascism, the same, the same corporate state structure, the same elimination of interior enemies, the same Authoritarianism and hatred of indigenous peoples? Isn't what happens in Gaza a form of ethnic-cleansing fascism of "indeterminate" "never such a things" all too familiar around the world? Has not throughout the Americas the person to be eliminated been the Indian= ? And by defining fascism as anti-Semitic is this a way to climate even farther from being and thought the presence of the Indian and the fact of the genocide of the Indians? I think if you listen to Pound, his hate can be heard in the voices today from the screens and speakers and in the newspaper, bogs, journals, which rave about the Muslims, the illegal immigrants, immigrants in general, abou= t the poor people of all colors, about the filthy, stupid Indian, the insanity of the world's leaders with the exception of our own and Israel an= d England's, and the duty above all to conform, to obey Authority, to do as one is told and think within the box, to write by a certain set of paradigm= s and above all really-- I mean really=97say nothing which in any way does not conform with what one has been told is allowed by the Authorities=97 What do you think this is anyway=97a free country? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:59:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit amen says this jew hey don't forget that anti-semite celine li po ah drunks dope haters and fascists and jew haters quite a menageries but are they the same thing tho everyone is an anti-semite despite their good intentions sure pound's pound and how do we separate the man from the work or can we > 1. If you judge the value of literature by the character of its > authors, how many good books will be left standing? Villon the > Thief, > Marlowe the Assassin, Li Po the Drunk, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, > Hemingway, > Fitzgerald, Coleridge, and on and on... How many Southern writers > were > not racist, including Faulkner? How many Japanese writers did not > despise the Chinese and Koreans and vice versa? How many classical > authors were not sexist-- virtually the entire body of Greek > classics > is deeply so. Should we scrap Prufrock and Four Quartets because > Eliot > was a bigot? > > > > > > > > > > 2. The reason Ez spent ten years in silence and never completed > his plan to edit the Cantos ("cutting them by 1/3rd") is that his > suffered profound guilt over having "been seduced by stupid > suburban > prejuduce" that also seduced two or three generations of his > peers--including the notion that WWI was a product of "Jewish > bankers > and arms-dealers of Europe." > > > > > > > > 3. Are the Cantos NOT worth study? Is the ABC of Reading NOT worth > reading? Is his Confucius > NOT the first decent Master K'ung in English? Is "Hugh Selwyn > Mauberly" > NOT a major poem? Are Pound's essays on prosody NOT > ground-breaking? > Did his Cathay translations (and Imagism) NOT shape 20th century > American poetry? Did his Cavalcanti & Spirit of Romance NOT > reaffirm the importance of Provence in the history of western > literature? > > > > > > > > > > 4. I believe that Ezra Pound's deeply disturbed personality produced > rampant paranoia and his boundless megalomania. But it also produced > genius. > > > > > > > > > > 5. Pound's rants over Rome > Radio were despicable, but also, very clearly, were a product of a > serious emotional breakdown. They are the ravings of a mind overrun > by > hysteria. That's a sickness. > > > > > > > > > > 6. The MLA formula quiz is a reductio ad absurdum. You can't mine > gold with a spoon. > > > > > > > > 7. "Abomination" > is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. And it's a word that > is > often used in reactionary preachings of the born-again church, the > anti-semitic church, the racist church, the fanatical homophobic > church--it is a loaded word. > > > > > > > 8. Whether or not this guy likes it, Ezra Pound > is THE father of modern American poetry. And as I say in my own > Pisan > Canto, "Whatever you say about him is true." INCLUDING his famous > generosity toward poets and artists of every stripe (yes, including > Jewish ones like Zukovsky). > > > Paul E. Nelson, M.A. > WPA President > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > Washington Poets Association > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:17:29 PM > Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination > > > This > really > sounds > like > a > great > way > to > teach > Pound, > and > a > great > course. > Along > with > Pound, > do > you > teach > state-supported > Soviet > writers > too? > Is > the > fact > that > Mien > Kampf > remains > on > shelves > a > sign > of > a > hidden > cult > of > Hitler? > I'm > not > sure > I > would > equate > the > "reading > of" > with > a > "sympathy > with" > or > an > "admiration > of." > > I > somehow > take > issue > with > the > idea > that > literature > is > an > exhaust > duct > of > power, > a > way > to > detour > and > jettison > guilty > feelings > from > feeble > head > of > state. > Certainly > not > all > literature > --and > definitely > not > all > writing-- > falls > into > this > category. > What > do > we > look > for > in > deciding > this? > -Ryan > > On > Thu, > Feb > 14, > 2008 > at > 1:00 > PM, > Gabriel > Gudding > > wrote: > > > > Yesterday > -- > February > 13 > -- > I > received > notice > from > the > MLA > publications > > > committee > that > it > is > putting > out > another > volume > on > Pound. > The > email > from > > > MLA > included > a > link > to > a > survey > -- > asking > the > respondent > how > to > teach > > > Pound. > > > > > I > didn't > even > bother > filling > out > the > survey, > because > I > teach > Pound > as > an > > > abomination, > as > the > canonizing > of > hatred, > as > a > case > study > of > the > power > > > of > consecration > dynamics. > In > short, > I > teach > Pound's > very > canonicity > as > > > an > indictment > of > literature > itself > as > a > project > of > power. > (The > name > of > > > the > proposed > volume > and > its > editor, > as > well > as > a > link > to > the > site, > are > > > at > the > bottom > of > this > post). > > > > > Also > yesterday > -- > in > 1946 > -- > February > 13 > -- > Ezra > Loomis > Pound, > who > > > advocated > killing > "big > kikes" > in > a > "pogrom > from > the > top" > and > said > "it > > > might > be > a > good > thing > to > hang > Roosevelt > and > a > few > hundred > yidds," > was > > > declared > insane > by > a > jury > and > sentenced > to > reside > in > St. > Elizabeths > > > Hospital. > > > > > Two > years > later > he > would > be > awarded > the > first > annual > Bollingen > Prize, > on > > > whose > ten > person > panel > T > S > Eliot > served, > who > said > of > himself, > "I > have > no > > > objection > to > being > called > a > bigot > myself." > > > > > The > jury > made > this > statement: > "The > fellows > are > aware > that > objections > may > > > be > made > to > awarding > a > prize > to > a > man > situated > as > is > Mr. > Pound.... > To > > > permit > other > considerations > than > that > of > poetic > achievement > to > sway > the > > > decision > would > destroy > the > significance > of > the > award > and > would > in > > > principle > deny > the > validity > of > that > objective > perception > of > value > on > > > which > civilized > society > must > rest." > (quote > from > Sieburth's > fulsome > intro > > > to > /The > Pisan > Cantos/) > > > > > Jed > Rasula > writes, > "What > was > crucial > was > the > preservation > of > the > > > administrative > security > system > that > had > assumed > custodial > control > of > > > poetry > (not > just > Pound's > poetry)...." > (APWM, > 114) > > > > > I > call > Sieburth's > introduction > to > /The > Pisan > Cantos/ > "fulsome" > because > > > of > his > elision > and > effacement > of > Pound's > racism: > the > rhetoric > of > > > Sieburth's > intro > to > /The > Pisan > Cantos/ > is > unconscionably > apologetic > > > about > Pound's > racism > (toward > both > African-Americans > and > Jews, > and > the > > > intro > basically > COMPLETELY > elides > the > horror > of > Pound's > anti-semitism > > > and > his > anti-Slavism > to > boot). > > > > > The > furthest > Sieburth > goes > in > his > introduction > is > to > say > Pound > had > > > "conflicted > attitudes > > race" > and > that > he > is > "insouciantly > > > condescending" > in > his > use > of > racial > hate > speech > and > that > Pound's > views > > > "might > have > been" > "paternalistic." > That's > just > from > one > page > -- > xxi > -- > > > of > Sieburth's > intro. > Sieburth's > introduction > on > the > point > of > race > does > > > not > even > mention > Pound's > advocating > systematic > pograms. > > > > > Please > note: > This > post > is > not > critical > of > Rasula. > The > valence > of > my > post > > > is > this: > It > states > a > beef > with > Sieburth > and > the > culture > industry > that > > > has > canonized > a > writer > like > Pound > -- > doing > so > essentially > via > the > same > > > legitimations > outlined > in > the > statement > I > quote > from > the > Bollingen > Prize > > > committee > -- > a > statement > now > 52 > years > old. > > > > > Rasula > is > quoted > here > not > to > be > critical > of > Rasula > but > to > underscore > (a) > > > what > the > Bollingen > Prize > committee's > statement > was > really > about > (control > > > of > the > dynamics > of > consecration > at > the > cost > of > effacing > Pound > as > a > poet > > > of > hatred), > and > (b) > that > essentially > Pound's > continued > canonicity > is > not > > > about > Pound > per > se > (because > Pound > = > Anti-Semitism, > Pound > = > Hate) > but > > > about > the > exercise > of > consecration > itself. > > > > > If > Pound's > canonicity > tells > us > anything, > it's > that > consecration's > object > > > is > clearly > irrelevant. > > > > > Pound > is > now > a > "high > capital" > object > against > which > to > exercise > the > > > muscles > of > consecration > -- > which > is > precisely > what > Sieburth > does > in > his > > > introduction. > And > that > is > probably > precisely > what > this > new > book > will > do. > > > > > _Approaches > to > Teaching > Ezra > Pound's > Poetry > and > Prose_, > edited > by > > > Demetres > P. > Tryphonopoulos. > "We > ask, > first, > that > you > respond > to > a > brief > > > questionnaire > available > on > the > MLA > Web > site > at > www.mla.org/approaches" > > > > > Gabe > > > -- > > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:36:36 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Small Press Exchange/ An Answer To Your Self-publishing Prayers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Like an alchemist hell bent on changing lead into gold, Daniel Sendecki labored long hours over the creation of the Small Press Exchange, designed especially for self-publishers with a hankering for self-promotion. It's a kind of myspace and it includes a bookstore. Members are encouraged to blog, review each others' books and cook up promotion schemes for their efforts. Google it up and join in the fun. (Don't forget to shout Wahoo! when you feel empowered!) It had a pretty good listing of readings in the Toronto area but that's fallen by the wayside recently. Dan wanted to keep it separate from our efforts at Ahadada Books, though it exists on the same server. Wahoo! Wahoo! There's even a membership drive! Jess of Japan (one tick north of Lafayette, Louisiana). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 00:44:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Janet Holmes Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 15 Feb 2008 to 16 Feb 2008 (#2008-48) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > it's not like he went mad and the supported mussolini and became > anti-semetic > he went "mad" afterwards put in hospital because he was who he was and > not tried and killed as a traitor > ala rosenbergs etc yet he is /was as he put it surburban in his > hatred read jefferson/ and or musolinni before he went MAD > Hi Steve, whom I don't know-- Yeah, great point! So how many more Rosenbergs should have been murdered by the state? Just Pound, or how many others? Eager to hear your murderous suggestions. You sound like a jolly dude. Janet -- Janet Holmes http://www.humanophone.com http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu .. .. .. .. .. .. NEW FROM AHSAHTA PRESS: Realm Sixty-Four by Kristi Maxwell the true keeps calm biding its story by Rusty Morrison - 2007 Sawtooth Poetry Prize winner! http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:12:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" In-Reply-To: <716196.53722.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I find that what Amy is saying here is serious and has to be taken into consideration. He was sick, as Jason states, as much as the entire world wa= s sick, or better the ones that fomented the 2nd World War and allowed it to break out. Pound was conscious of his position in the world of letters, he was the one who promoted Imagism and modernism, had contact _or better 'made' _European poetry, and probably all the arts at the time (thanks to him Vivaldi was revalued), corresponded with intellectuals in China and in Japan, was personally received by Mussolini who commented favorably on his Cantos and wanted to meet him on the following day, which did not happen because on the next day Mussolini was called to sign the entrance of Italy in the war. Times were hot. He spoke in English on the Italian radio, maybe understood by 50 people _to be very optimistic. He was coming from the States where he had tried his best to keep the U.S.A. out of the war. It is true that he told Ginsberg in an interview in Venice that he regrette= d what he had said against the Jews, but it is also true that the first picture they took of him when he landed in Italy after his stay at St. Elizabeth's depicts him with his right fist in the air. And that Olson, as someone already said, stopped visiting him at St. E. because disgusted by his continuous remarks against the Jews, as much as he was a close friend o= f Zukofsky (there is a very nice anecdote by him). Pound is an incredible mixture of angelic and diabolic. I also wanted badly to have answers, to find him redeemed somewhere in history but that is not the way it is. He was caught in what was defined, as I already said elsewhere, a delirium of power supported by his economic theories. His position at the time was exceptional, be it intellectual or in terms of contacts. As a matter of fac= t he thought he was much more powerful than he actually was. In his ingenuity he confused knowledge and personal charisma with politics. There should be some medical reports at St. Elizabeth's. I never went through them, I don't know if they are public. On the other hand, what kind of medical report could any one of us have after having been kept in a cage for about a month, and treated as if we were mad in the midst of a world war? It anyhow makes me laugh that on anthologies we find The Waste Land by Eliot, revised by Pound and we cannot find Pound. On Feb 17, 2008 12:25 AM, amy king wrote: > I find it conveniently dismissive to separate the two. His politics > informed his poetry. It would be nice if our "artist" lives could sit on= a > shelf, untainted by the messy world and its viewpoints, while our regular > persons walked around, enacting our political views, readying to be shelv= ed > when the artist comes out to play, but these compartmentalizations aren't > possible. This complex connectedness is why tastes and styles and > practices range and often reflect our socio-economic and ethnic identitie= s > (to put it perhaps too simplistically), as well as reflecting our politic= s > proper. Even "safe", "simple", "accessible" "mainstream" poetries promo= te > political practices and predilections. > > Celebrating and promoting Pound's work without considering and examining > how his fascism informed his poetry is a dangerous position to defend. I= t's > also popular and easy. > > Amy > > _______ > Blog > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 6:07:53 PM > Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" > > > I > still > find > this > a > moot > argument. > Whether > Pound > is > the > greatest > poet > of > the > last > century > has > nothing > to > do > with > his > fascism. > It > has > to > do > with > his > poetry. > > On > Feb > 16, > 2008 > 6:02 > PM, > amy > king > > wrote: > > > > I > realize > that > people > dismiss > Pound > or > ignore > the > work > because > of > his > > > antisemitism, > which > is > quite > an > understandable > reaction. > The > problem > is > > > that, > even > today > in > these > "enlightened > times", > yet > another > article > appeared > > > attempting > to > pardon > and > dismiss > Pound's > antisemitism > in > an > effort > to > > > position > him > as > "the > greatest > poet > of > the > last > century" > -- > this > ongoing > > > trend > to > excuse > his > fascism > and > render > it > invisible, > as > well > as > forgoing > any > > > examination > of > how > his > fascism > informed > his > poetics, > is > political > by > its > > > very > nature, > historical, > and > part > of > what > sustains > his > popularity. > > > Separating > the > work > from > Pound's > politics, > whether > to > dismiss > his > work > or > to > > > celebrate > it, > a) > ignores > how > The > Cantos > in > some > ways > betrays > Pound's > fascism > > > and > b) > allows > a > receptive > audience > to > ignore > the > subversive > fascist > > > practices > that > inform > his > work > and > simultaneously > (& > ignorantly) > celebrate > > > those > practices. > > > > > It > is > well > worth > examining > how > his > fascism > informed > his > work > as > well > as > > > studying > other > political > practices > that > he > used > to > his > benefit > but > publicly > > > named > and > condemned > -- > his > politics > proper > are > an > attempt > to > deny > the > > > conflicting > politics* > of > his > work. > Why? > As > noted > by > Bernstein, > "It > is > > > scary > to > see > the > degree > to > which > fascist > ideas > have > rooted > > > themselves > so > deeply > in > mainstream > American > life, > often > in > the > guise > of > > > family > values > and > consonance > with > a > natural > order. > Pound's > most > fascist > > > polemics > resonate > in > an > eery > way > with > the > current > wave > of > attacks > on > > > the > arts, > gays, > the > disenfranchised > poor, > immigrants, > feminism, > and > the > > > cities. > I > say > this > because > there > is > often > a > tendency > among > Americans > to > > > exoticize > fascism; > Pound > did > his > best > to > bring > it > home." > > > > > Amy > > > > > > > * > "Pound's > great > achievement > was > to > create > a > work > using > ideological > > > swatches > from > many > social > and > historical > sectors > of > his > own > society > and > > > an > immense > variety > of > other > cultures. > This > complex, > polyvocal > > > textuality > was > the > result > of > his > search > =97 > his > unrequited > desire > for > =97 > > > deeper > truths > than > could > be > revealed > by > more > monadically > organized > > > poems > operating > with > a > single > voice > and > a > single > perspective. > But > > > Pound's > ideas > about > what > mediated > these > different > materials > are > often > > > at > odds > with > how > these > types > of > textual > practices > actually > work > in > The > > > Cantos. > > > > > > > > > Pound's > fascist > ideology > insists > on > the > author's > having > an > > > extraliterary > point > of > 'special > knowledge' > that > creates > a > phallic > order > > > (these > are > Pound's > terms) > over > the > female > chaos > of > conflicting > > > ideological > material. > As > Robert > Casillo > points > out > in > his > study > of > > > Pound's > antisemitism, > Pound > contrasts > the > phallocentric/logocentric > > > unswerving > pivot > (citing > Wang > in > canto > 97: > 'man's > phallic > heart > is > from > > > heaven > / > a > clear > spring > of > rightness') > with > the > castrated > and > nomadic > > > Jew. > Jews > are > the > purveyors > of > fragmentation > and > therefore > the > > > dissolution > of > fixed > hierarchical > cultural > values > (the > Jews, > says > Pound > > > on > the > radio, > want > to > 'blot > out > the > classics, > blot > out > the > record'). > > > Again, > Jews, > as > usurers > and > in > league > with > the > Commies, > represent > 'an > > > indistinct, > rootless, > destructive > mass' > eroding > the > agrarian > ideal > of > > > homestead, > of > nature > and > private > property > (values > Pound > equates > with > > > order, > clarity, > telos). > " > > > > > "=85As > Casillo > con > cludes, > 'Pound > turned > to > Fascism > because > he > shares > > > not > only > its > deep > fear > of > indeterminacy' > =97 > of > the > vague, > inchoate, > and > > > incommensurable, > of > all > that > is > mysterious > or > ambiguous > or > unknown > =97 > > > 'but > also > its > central > desire, > which > is > to > banish > the > indeterminate > from > > > social > life > =85 > And > as > in > Fascism, > in > Pound's > work > the > ultimate > sign > of > > > such > fearful > [indefiniteness] > is > the > Jew.' > > > > > > > > > What > grotesque > views > for > someone > whose > work > is > filled > with > > > indeterminacy, > fragmentation, > abstraction, > obscurity, > verbiage, > > > equivocation, > ambiguity, > allegory; > who > has > made > the > highest > art > of > > > removing > ideologies > from > their > origins > and > creating > for > them > a > nomadic > > > economy > whose > roots > are > neither > in > the > land > nor > in > the > property > but > > > rather > in > the > abstraction > of > aestheticization > and > the > irresolution > of > > > the > jarring > harmonies > of > incommensurable > sounds. > As > Richard > Sieburth > > > has > noted, > the > ultimate > irony > of > The > Cantos > is > that > all > its > > > irreconcilable > elements > can > be > reconciled > only > in > the > abstract, > by > the > > > authority > of > the > author, > on > credit. > Indeed, > the > real > economy > of > The > > > Cantos > is > the > one > Pound > constantly > struggled > to > repress > and > to > lay > > > bare: > the > economy > of > reader > and > writer > and > book; > the > economy > of > > > language > not > as > Logos > but > as > exchange. > =85" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0802&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DA&X=3D7F0135200A3950BB1F&Y=3Dpoetics.list%40gmail.com&P=3D40275 > > > > > _______ > > > Blog > > > > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ___________ > > > Be > a > better > friend, > newshound, > and > > > know-it-all > with > Yahoo! > Mobile. > Try > it > now. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________= ____________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > --=20 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 03:20:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: "Letters cast new light on misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Maria and Nick raise important points. Perhaps the phrase "misunderstood poet Ezra Pound" that appears in the title of The Independent's review refers to Pound's criticisms, in The Cantos, of what the reviewer calls "anti-democratic capitalism": i.e. Pound's criticisms of "anti-democratic capitalism" have been "misunderstood." But this also needs to be questioned. What the review's elliptical language irresponsibly enables a reader to presuppose is that, were Pound's criticisms properly "understood," The Cantos or Pound would come off as being "for" something either like "democratic capitalism" or "democratic anti-capitalism." The latter two options form one of the binaries of journalese today (hence Pound is "really like us liberals," if only we "understood" him, and fascism, then and now, need never be addressed, let alone "understood"). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 04:03:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Essay About Doc Humes and The Paris Review - Books - Review - New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/books/review/Donadio-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin--- more "secrets" emerge re secret agents and writers and magazine covers as "covers"-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:21:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why does this listserve so often remind me of a right wing AM radio call-in show? Fascinating how when Pound's advocacy of pogroms and systematic assassinations is even *mentioned*, certain people (was it really 8?) jump up to ensure that those considerations are not really connected in any meaningful way to Pound's "work" or the reception of his work -- and that bringing that up as meaningful is in fact a good way to be pretentiously called simplistic and dismissive. I return from a weekend of poetry in Chicago with friends to find a welter of indignant responses to the suggestion that Pound's canonicity is about power, legitimation, and fetish rather than Pound as genius, progenitor, misunderstood and emotionally complicated father. I learned from this flurry of indignation that by refusing to teach Pound as an object of adulation, I am dismissing him. I learn that I am simplistic to explore Pound in relation to structures of literary power. Yes, how simplistic of me to try to show my students that Pound's consecration was a function of many different dynamics, including the sociology of author-as-fetish, the manufacture and use of symbolic goods in academe, repeated attempts to elide class and racial hatreds, the effacement of anti-semitism, the history of fascism's relation to aesthetics, and the erasure of the ways symbolic capital is produced and policed in small literary communities. How simplistic of me. How ridiculous of me to suggest to students that a more instructive set of footnotes to, say, /The Pisan Cantos/ isn't merely Sieburth's apologetic, almost comically Nabokovian apparatus, but instead Sieburth's elisions and excuses taught in tandem with Leonard Doob's transcriptions of EP's radio speeches. How foolish of me to encourage students to not simply believe Sieburth's celebration of Pound, but to consider Siebuth's position as an actor with a vested economic interest in deploying a specific rhetoric designed on the one hand to augment and mystify his object of study and on the other to reframe if not outright efface its more horrifying aspects. And to show that Sieburth's tactics are not peculiar to him alone but are evidence of a common structural tactic deployed by many others in 1946, 1951, 1954, 1957, 1963, 1971, 1977, 1983, 1996, 2001, 2003, 2008 (and just yesterday on this list). In fact, how dare I use Pound as a case study by which to examine the sociology of the belief in charismatic legitimation. How dare I use Pound to study the sociology of literature: I should be using Pound to study Pound. This is about venerating authors, not helping students understand the world. Pound should be studied to study the greatness of Pound. Pound was begotten, not made! Interesting, too, to see all the posts seeking condescendingly to remind me that Pound is complex. Hmm, ahh!, how could I have somehow missed that Pound was complex? Maybe I just need to read Canto XIII again. Gosh, I must have missed all of his trenchant economic ideas and his sociopolitical critique and how they suggest the evils of oligarchy capitalism, war, and the military-industrial complex. Alison -- in a telling example of a common trope used by celebrants and believers -- actually goes so far as to call his thoughts on these points "prophecies." These "prophecies" were ideas cribbed from numerous sources. Further, they were descriptions of conditions already inhering, not those to come. Calling them prophecies is a convenient way of diverting not only any deeper understanding of EP's rhetoric, but also how deliberate he was in the construction of his texts, as well as his construction of himself as an author. For example, his "prophecies" about the arms race were in part cribbed from Charles Trevelyan, circa 1914. Alison's suggestion that I "focus so narrowly on dynamics of power that they obscure the experience of the poetry itself" is an interesting attempt to reformulate my post. "Poetry itself." If it is narrow to encourage students toward a disciplined understanding of a host of phenomena surrounding a text, rather than just pretending to a pure exegesis and appreciation of the text-qua-text, then I'm narrow. What I refuse to do is credit the unexamined existence of a "poetry itself," which Alison speaks of. I've frankly never been able to find this mythic "poetry itself" Alison speaks of. I've found a few "poetries themselves," each one, for better or worse, wholly invested in a system of symbolic goods and social profit -- and the worst and most dishonest systems are those that perform a pretense of aesthetic autonomy by insisting on a "poetry itself." Regarding Canto XIII. To whomever it was who suggested I just need to read XIII again in order to get my head screwed on straight: If that bit of orientialism is somehow meant to serve as self-evidence of EP's greatness, very good, enjoy your orientalist postcard. Enjoy your everlasting thirteenth cookie. But literature isn't my religion. And if its yours: good, enjoy it. But stay off my porch with your pamphlets. I don't teach religion. And I don't buy yours, Mr. Eliot. My word. Is literature as a religion really this alive and well (read necrotic and festering)? Where's my Nicene creed? Best, Gabe -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:37:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: The Pyrotechnic Imagination - New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/magazine/17Fireworks-t.html?th&emc=th --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:51:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martha King Subject: Reading 3-6 Telephone Grill Comments: To: TONY@aol.com, railevents@gmail.com, ERTABIOS@aol.com, info@poetryproject.com, editorial@brooklynrail.org, vvpress@villagevoice.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Prose Pros Press Release =C2=A0 =C2=A0Eileen Myles & Susan Sherman Thursday, March 6, 6:30-8:30 p.m. at The Telephone Bar & Grill =E2=80=93 149 Second Avenue btw 9th & 10th Stre= ets=20 all trains to Union Square, 6 to Astor Place, F to Second Avenue =C2=A0 For more information, email enauen@aol.com or gpwitd@aol.com=20 =C2=A0 Prose Pros, at The Telephone Bar & Grill, 149 Second Avenue, Thursday, March= 6, features two of the city=E2=80=99s most radical writers: former presiden= tial candidate, poet and agent provocateur Eileen Myles, and poet, playwrigh= t, editor Susan Sherman. Both will read from new prose works. =C2=A0 Eileen Myles=E2=80=99s latest book is Sorry, Tree (Wave Books), in which she= describes =E2=80=9Csome nature=E2=80=9D as well as the transmigration of so= uls from the east coast to the west. Bust Magazine calls Myles =E2=80=9Cthe=20= rock star of modern poetry=E2=80=9D and Holland Cotter in the New York Times= describes her as =E2=80=9Ca cult figure to a generation of post-punk female= s forming their own literary avant garde.=E2=80=9D A virtuoso performer of h= er work, she=E2=80=99s read and performed at colleges, performance spaces an= d bookstores across North America as well as in Europe, Iceland, Ireland and= Russia. She=E2=80=99s published more than 20 volumes of poetry, fiction, ar= ticles, plays and libretti. In 1997 and again in 2007, Eileen toured with Si= ster Spit, a post-punk female performance troupe. She has been a professor o= f writing at UCSD since 2002. In 2007 she received The Andy Warhol/Creative=20= Capital art writing fellowship.=20 =C2=A0 Susan Sherman=E2=80=99s just published memoir, America=E2=80=99s Child (Curb= stone), was termed =E2=80=9Cevocative=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cfascinating=E2= =80=9D in the New York Times Book Review this month. Sherman writes the stor= y of her journey from working-class Philadelphia to the mythic Hollywood of=20= the 1940s (where her father was the agent for Abbot and Costello), to transf= ormation and self-discovery in Berkeley and an unquiet home in downtown New=20= York City, where she founded IKON magazine, fought sexism and homophobia, no= tably at the Women=E2=80=99s House, visited Cuba and produced a steady strea= m of unconventional poetry and theatrical works. =C2=A0 The reading takes place in the comfortable backroom Lounge of the Telephone=20= Bar, famed for fine vegetarian and carnivore fare, cooked with an English fl= air. Admission is free. Patrons will be invited to contribute and all procee= ds go to the readers.=20 Coming up: April 3: Maggie Dubris and Geoffrey O=E2=80=99Brien; May 1 (last=20= reading for the current season): Martha King and Elinor Nauen =C2=A0 The Prose Pros series is presented by King and Nauen. King is the author of=20= North & South and other prose collections. She published Giants Play Well in= the Drizzle, a popular underground zine in the days before the Web. Nauen i= s the author of American Guys and editor of Diamonds Are a Girl=E2=80=99s Be= st Friend and Ladies, Start Your Engines. ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.= aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:54:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: Re: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great idea. I'm with you. Charlie ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution From: "Christophe Casamassima" Date: Sat, February 16, 2008 9:43 am To: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This morning I had a burning idea. What if the reviews journal of self-published books, objects and ephemera were to coincide with a free distributor? The name kept rolling around in my head - No Press Distribution, or NPD. I think it would be best to outline such potential projects here, and hope to get feedback from members of the community. No Press Distribution "Pressless is Priceless" 1. First we begin by soliciting members of the poetry community for self-published books, pamphlets, chapbooks, objects, ephemera, etc. 2. We collect these publications in a database which will eventually become a web-based distributor like Small Press Distribution. I will build a website and update consistently. NPD will collect no fees for sales (we're not a consignment venture - god forbid!) 3. There will be an option for each title for on-line reviews, similar to the amazon.com model. I'm not sure what kind of period the physical journal of reviews will be distributed, but I think it would be conducive to saving paper if I create a CD-Rom version of the review journal, or keep it strictly web-based. In this case, ANYONE can review titles. I believe this option will be more democratic and expansive. 4. Each title will be linked to info about how to purchase or obtain it. There will be no central "housing"; the web-based distributor is merely a central catalogue. All business is directed toward the individual. 5. Naturally, no fees will be amassed by me, or anyone managing the web-content, catalogue, etc. 6. I do ask, though, that anyone who wants to submit titles for cataloging/review should send a copy to me. This is the basic skeleton. Firstly, I am trying to build a databse of people who want to send me materials. Let's try something first. 1. Send me an electronic copy (pdf, doc, rtf) of the description of the material(s) along with a scanned image/photo (if possible) of it/them. 2. Send me your name and address if you'd like to be informed about future updates to reviews/catalogue. Please write me if you have any questions. Any help is crucial and highly desired... Christophe Casamassima = Jim Kerr Guides Washington Fly Fishing Jim Kerr Guides - Year round fly fishing in Northwest and Olympic Peninsula. Steelhead, sea run cutthroat trout, saltwater salmon. River float fishing trips and river drift boat charters. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=b33e86e3d6ec4339ec366f96f0e31845 -- Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:18:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Re. Pound Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I've been following the Pound discussion--let me add a couple of cents. In Uncertain Poetries (Salt 2005), I have an essay, "The Narrative of Ezra Gorgon Pound," which a bit tongue in cheek suggests reading the Cantos as a 'gothic,' so as to get at how Pound's ideas about history and politics are deeply entwined in his technique--it includes a bit of a rejoinder to my good friend Charles's "Pounding Fascism." I post this excerpt from the book, since it gets at the nub of the argument the way I see it: "We might usefully compare Pound's troping of history with the poetics of poets such as George Oppen or Robert Duncan for whom historical contingency is continually registed in the voice, suggesting that history can never be entirely read as 'the past', nor as the present either, and so, in order to be meaningful for the present, must be passed through an active vocalizing subject. In Oppen or Duncan, the strata of history as a series of weights on the being of the poet, no longer remain discrete but are cumulative and so prevent anything as straightforward as Confucist re inscription of historical maxims. At the sama time, conscious revisionism or admittance of known error are luxuries these poets must deny themselves; in Duncan's case, because the event or its linguistic signature is the gateway for entrance into a living past which is all process continually working itself out in times and individuals; in Oppen's, because today's word is burdened with the totality of historical knowledge. Their 'vigilance' is of an entirely different order from that of Pound's. I want to conclude my discussion with a brief look at what we can say about Pound's methodology in terms of present day practice of poetry. My spring board is a recent essay by Charles Bernstein in Sulphur entitled "Pounding Fascism" in which Bernstein attempts to save Pound the technician from Pound the fascist. Let me say at once, that I suspect the motive behind this essay has less to do with Pound than with Bernstein's revising of literary history in an attempt to valorize, it would seem, language centered writing as it leans on or is beholden to Poundian poetics. Bernstein begins with the claim that Pound's fascism, "far from hindering the canonization of his poetry by American literary culture, has been a major factor in its acceptance. (C. Bernstein, 99)" Now I know of few mainstream or establishment studies of Pound that support this view the very places it ought to be encountered if Bernstein is correct; in fact, the 'technical' side of Pound is what is praised in even as conservative a critic as Blackmur who, en passant, insists that even as we admire Pound's craft, we ought to drop the notion of Pound as a thinker or literary critic. Bernstein goes on to say, and this is the crucial issue, that he does not "equate Pound's politics with Pound's poetry. The Cantos, and other of Pound's work, are in many ways basically at odds with the tenets of Pound's fascist ideals. (C. Bernstein, 99)" They are at odds, according to Bernstein, because "the 'hyperspace' of Pound's modernist collage is not a predetermined Truth of a pan cultural elitism but a product of a compositionally decentered multiculturalism...a polyvocal textuality...the result of his search for deeper truths than could be revealed by more monadically organized poems operating with a single voice and a single perspective. (C. Bernstein, 100)" Now it is most probably the case that if Pound were a maker of 'monadically organized' poems, if he had written in the style of D'Annunzio for example, few in the American literary establishment would have insisted on his canonization. On the other hand, if one perceives The Cantos as something like a gothic, its 'multiculturalism" is an illusion, its "polyvocal textuality" a chorus of foreign sounding voices all mouthing the same rules and verities. If you accept this point of view, then Bernstein's analysis leaves one major question still begging, the one I have tried to develop in this paper: whether Poundian techniques, in particular the cultural plundering, revising and activity of selection induced by the search for history's repeats, the absence of a clearly defined authorial voice, tend to undermine fascist tendencies or aid in furthering them. At this point, my own answer to the question must be necessarily quite tentative, but my argument goes something like this: Recent studies of the aesthetics of fascism (such as Friedlander's mentioned above) acknowledge not only the fascist need for rigidity, its fears of social and cultural disorder, but also demonstrate how fascism creates imagery and phantasms and other machinery for the generation of fear and anxiety in order to maintain itself. These are what Elias Canetti, in speaking about fascism, calls "the adjacency of construction and destruction". The mechanisms of fascism not only respond to the indeterminate but use it, feeding it back into the social system, creating anxiety and paranoia in order to maintain and accomplish political purposes. Friedlander describes this as "the fusion of kitsch and death" where through aesthetic devices, anxiety and authority are everywhere and nowhere, a blend of domestic, mythic and archaic materials which produce a disembodied gotterdammerung of calculated effects. I would suggest that The Cantos, seen as a gothic, approximate, on the linguistic level, this technology of fascism. Pound, as he selects from history and rewrites where necessary, may in fact be operating his own Orwellian Ministry of Truth (or as Plato would probably call it, The Ministry of Poetry). For what most effectively maintains a totalitarian state of mind is not unassailable logic but unassailable 'thought'. And thought is first of all unassailable when 'authorship' is put in doubt, when history seems like a series of repeats, and texts are no longer the products of writers but historical inevitabilities. The sense of historical inevitablity, as both Froula and Michael Andre Bernstein point out, is precisely what Pound sets out to achieve through his maskings and erasures of authorship. And it is this troublesome legacy which has been raised to an unexamined and somewhat mystical status in much contemporary theory of writing and reading. As in the gothic, Pound's poem has elided the very rule of 'sincerity' he set for himself. For sincerity demands in a sense accountability, and accountability demands an author or voice. The Cantos like Pym, obscures authorship, not because of its polyvocal texture, but because the gothic form must trade, not on believability but on a vicarious believability, the emotional conviction that this dangerous stuff called history is safely happening to you. The gothic thrall, the fictive aura of terror inspired by Poe's stories, is close to the dramaturgy of Pound's poem with its parade of decisive heroes performing their deeds. I would add that these kinds of emotional tonalities may not be far from that which the Leader creates when he tells the crowd how powerful it is and its members believe it." --Michael Heller Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) available at www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good bookstores. Survey of work at http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm Collaborations with the composer Ellen Fishman Johnson at http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:49:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: KISS ME WITH THE MOUTH OF YOUR COUNTRY [Query] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rishma Dunlop would like to publish a review of my Dusie chapbook, KISS ME WITH THE MOUTH OF YOUR COUNTRY, for the York University-sponsored international poetry site, Studio [http://www.studiopoetry.ca]. If you are interested in reviewing the chapbook, located here [ http://www.dusie.org/KISSMEWITHTHEMOUTHOFYOURCOUNTRY.pdf ], please contact Rishma Dunlop directly at rdunlop@yorku.ca I can also send a copy of the chapbook by mail to you - just backchannel with your address. Thanks, Amy Rishma Dunlop, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of English Coordinator, Creative Writing Program York University Editor: Studio http://www.studiopoetry.ca Tel: 416-736-2100, ext.30163 Email: rdunlop@yorku.ca _______ http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga http://www.amyking.org/blog ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:22:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jilly Dybka Subject: Re: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution In-Reply-To: <3236.76.197.239.45.1203267295.squirrel@www.poetrypoetry.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I was going to do something like this in 2007 but had surgery & it got put on hold. http://www.thewordvine.com Also, I couldn't find a PHP developer who I could afford. :( I'm waiting for a response to my plan B though. Jilly On 2/17/08, Charlie Rossiter wrote: > Great idea. I'm with you. > > Charlie > > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: Self-Publishing: Potential for Review and Distribution > From: "Christophe Casamassima" > Date: Sat, February 16, 2008 9:43 am > To: > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This morning I had a burning idea. What if the reviews journal of > self-published books, objects and ephemera were to coincide with a free > distributor? The name kept rolling around in my head - No Press > Distribution, or NPD. I think it would be best to outline such potential > projects here, and hope to get feedback from members of the community. > > No Press Distribution > "Pressless is Priceless" > > 1. First we begin by soliciting members of the poetry community for > self-published books, pamphlets, chapbooks, objects, ephemera, etc. > > 2. We collect these publications in a database which will eventually > become a web-based distributor like Small Press Distribution. I will build > a website and update consistently. NPD will collect no fees for sales > (we're not a consignment venture - god forbid!) > > 3. There will be an option for each title for on-line reviews, similar to > the amazon.com model. I'm not sure what kind of period the physical > journal of reviews will be distributed, but I think it would be conducive > to saving paper if I create a CD-Rom version of the review journal, or > keep it strictly web-based. In this case, ANYONE can review titles. I > believe this option will be more democratic and expansive. > > 4. Each title will be linked to info about how to purchase or obtain it. > There will be no central "housing"; the web-based distributor is merely a > central catalogue. All business is directed toward the individual. > > 5. Naturally, no fees will be amassed by me, or anyone managing the > web-content, catalogue, etc. > > 6. I do ask, though, that anyone who wants to submit titles for > cataloging/review should send a copy to me. > > This is the basic skeleton. Firstly, I am trying to build a databse of > people who want to send me materials. Let's try something first. > > 1. Send me an electronic copy (pdf, doc, rtf) of the description of the > material(s) along with a scanned image/photo (if possible) of it/them. > > 2. Send me your name and address if you'd like to be informed about future > updates to reviews/catalogue. > > Please write me if you have any questions. Any help is crucial and highly > desired... > > > Christophe Casamassima > > = > Jim Kerr Guides Washington Fly Fishing > Jim Kerr Guides - Year round fly fishing in Northwest and Olympic > Peninsula. Steelhead, sea run cutthroat trout, saltwater salmon. River > float fishing trips and river drift boat charters. > http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=b33e86e3d6ec4339ec366f96f0e31845 > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze > -- Jilly Dybka, WA4CZD jilly9@gmail.com Ron Paul 2008 - TN 7th District Leader Blog: http://www.poetryhut.com/wordpress/ Jazz: http://cdbaby.com/cd/dybka Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:06:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Re. Pound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Michael, You claim that Bernstein's "revising literary history" (a claim you also don't explain) is an attempt to 'valorize language centered writing' -- I'm not trying to be provocative here & I read your excerpt, but I just don't understand what you base this assumption on or why. Did you arrive at this conclusion simply by association? Also, your argument on Pound seems to require an either/or position -- Either Pound's poetry uses the authorial voice of 'fascist aesthetics' successfully or it legitimately uses the polyvocal textuality that supports/explores the indeterminate and its uncertain possibilities (& becomes a gothic?). You state that using the former -- the "technology of fascism" ("The mechanisms of fascism not only respond to the indeterminate but use it, feeding it back into the social system, creating anxiety and paranoia in order to maintain and accomplish political purposes.") - renders the indeterminate an "illusion", either making the implications and repercussions of indeterminacy invisible or absorbing indeterminacy for its own fascist use. ... As if contradictions can't co-exist, as if readers don't selectively celebrate and promote, esp conservative ones as you named, one style over another - willfully ignoring other styles employed and the effects they have - while also quietly using the politics of the co-existing style to explore & dip a toe into that forbidden pond ... Pound's fascism betrays his poetic intent as he used the polyvocal to query and explore *despite* his focus on authorial proclamations and certainties to establish a "phallic order" (Pound's term) ... What, and moreover, *How* we hate reveals and speaks volumes, sometimes betraying us and that coherent/concrete facade we're so intent on constructing, even despite what we say we're trying to sell ... The cracks and fissures and bubbles and behind-the-scenes and oh-my-slip eventually start showing ... Someone asked me to give an example of how politics can inform poetry, and while I'm no good at critical explanation, esp any attempt to expound on Pound - ha - the following excerpt from Robert Graves' and Laura Riding's A SURVEY OF MODERNIST POETRY might elucidate, not so favorably, a bit: "...indeed a great deal of what passes for poetry is the rewriting of the prose summary of a hypothetical poem in poetical language. Before further discussing this particular poem, let us quote the beginning of a ballad by Mr. Ezra Pound in illustration of the prose-idea poeticalized: THE BALLAD OF THE GOODLY FERE (Simon Zelotes speaketh it somewhile after the crucifixion) Ha' we lost the goodliest fere o' all For the priests and the gallows tree? Aye, lover he was of brawny men O' ships and the open sea. When they came wi' a host to take Our Man His smile was good to see, "First let these go!" quo' our Goodly Fere, "Or I'll see ye damned", says he. Aye, he sent us out through the crossed high spears, And the scorn of his laugh rang free, "Why tood ye not me when I walked about Alone in the town?" says he. Oh, we drank his "Hale" in the good red wine When we last made company, No capon priest was the Goodly Fere But a man o' men was he. I ha' seen him drive a hundred men Wi' a bundle o' cords swung free When they took the high and holy house For their pawn and treasury .... Stripped of its imitated antiqueness, the substance of all this could be given simply as follows: "It would be false to identify the Christ of the sentimentalists with the Christ of the Gospels. So far from being a meek or effeminate character He strikes us as a very manly man, and His disciples, fishermen and others, must have reverenced Him for His manly qualities as much as for His spiritual teaching. His action in driving money-changers from the Temple with a scourge of cords is a proof of this. So is His courageous action when confronted by the soldiers of the High Priest sent to arrest Him--He mockingly enquired why they had not dared arrest Him previously when He walked about freely in the city of Jerusalem, and consented to offer no resistence only if His disciples were allowed to escape. The Last Supper was surely a very different scene from the Church Sacrament derived from it, where a full-fed priest condescendingly officiates; it was a banquet of friends of which the Dearest Friend was Our Saviour." Here we see that the poeticalization has in fact weakened the historical argument. By using the ballad setting Mr. Pound has made the fishermen of Galilee into North-country sailors of the Patrick Spens tradition and given them sentiments more proper to the left wing of the Y.M.C.A." ... --from Robert Graves' and Laura Riding's A SURVEY OF MODERNIST POETRY Amy _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog Faculty Page http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Heller To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:18:19 PM Subject: Re. Pound I want to conclude my discussion with a brief look at what we can say about Pound's methodology in terms of present day practice of poetry. My spring board is a recent essay by Charles Bernstein in Sulphur entitled "Pounding Fascism" in which Bernstein attempts to save Pound the technician from Pound the fascist. Let me say at once, that I suspect the motive behind this essay has less to do with Pound than with Bernstein's revising of literary history in an attempt to valorize, it would seem, language centered writing as it leans on or is beholden to Poundian poetics. Bernstein begins with the claim that Pound's fascism, "far from hindering the canonization of his poetry by American literary culture, has been a major factor in its acceptance. (C. Bernstein, 99)" Now I know of few mainstream or establishment studies of Pound that support this view the very places it ought to be encountered if Bernstein is correct; in fact, the 'technical' side of Pound is what is praised in even as conservative a critic as Blackmur who, en passant, insists that even as we admire Pound's craft, we ought to drop the notion of Pound as a thinker or literary critic. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:04:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <47B834CB.80202@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Gabe, No one is attacking you for teaching your class and the approach taken. In fact, who would dare argue that teaching The Cantos in conjunction with more sources wouldn't be beneficial to students? -Ryan On Feb 17, 2008 8:21 AM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Why does this listserve so often remind me of a right wing AM radio > call-in show? Fascinating how when Pound's advocacy of pogroms and > systematic assassinations is even *mentioned*, certain people (was it > really 8?) jump up to ensure that those considerations are not really > connected in any meaningful way to Pound's "work" or the reception of > his work -- and that bringing that up as meaningful is in fact a good > way to be pretentiously called simplistic and dismissive. > > I return from a weekend of poetry in Chicago with friends to find a > welter of indignant responses to the suggestion that Pound's canonicity > is about power, legitimation, and fetish rather than Pound as genius, > progenitor, misunderstood and emotionally complicated father. > > I learned from this flurry of indignation that by refusing to teach > Pound as an object of adulation, I am dismissing him. I learn that I am > simplistic to explore Pound in relation to structures of literary power. > > Yes, how simplistic of me to try to show my students that Pound's > consecration was a function of many different dynamics, including the > sociology of author-as-fetish, the manufacture and use of symbolic goods > in academe, repeated attempts to elide class and racial hatreds, the > effacement of anti-semitism, the history of fascism's relation to > aesthetics, and the erasure of the ways symbolic capital is produced and > policed in small literary communities. How simplistic of me. > > How ridiculous of me to suggest to students that a more instructive set > of footnotes to, say, /The Pisan Cantos/ isn't merely Sieburth's > apologetic, almost comically Nabokovian apparatus, but instead > Sieburth's elisions and excuses taught in tandem with Leonard Doob's > transcriptions of EP's radio speeches. How foolish of me to encourage > students to not simply believe Sieburth's celebration of Pound, but to > consider Siebuth's position as an actor with a vested economic interest > in deploying a specific rhetoric designed on the one hand to augment and > mystify his object of study and on the other to reframe if not outright > efface its more horrifying aspects. And to show that Sieburth's tactics > are not peculiar to him alone but are evidence of a common structural > tactic deployed by many others in 1946, 1951, 1954, 1957, 1963, 1971, > 1977, 1983, 1996, 2001, 2003, 2008 (and just yesterday on this list). > > In fact, how dare I use Pound as a case study by which to examine the > sociology of the belief in charismatic legitimation. How dare I use > Pound to study the sociology of literature: > > I should be using Pound to study Pound. This is about venerating > authors, not helping students understand the world. > > Pound should be studied to study the greatness of Pound. > > Pound was begotten, not made! > > Interesting, too, to see all the posts seeking condescendingly to remind > me that Pound is complex. Hmm, ahh!, how could I have somehow missed > that Pound was complex? Maybe I just need to read Canto XIII again. > Gosh, I must have missed all of his trenchant economic ideas and his > sociopolitical critique and how they suggest the evils of oligarchy > capitalism, war, and the military-industrial complex. > > Alison -- in a telling example of a common trope used by celebrants and > believers -- actually goes so far as to call his thoughts on these > points "prophecies." > > These "prophecies" were ideas cribbed from numerous sources. Further, > they were descriptions of conditions already inhering, not those to > come. Calling them prophecies is a convenient way of diverting not only > any deeper understanding of EP's rhetoric, but also how deliberate he > was in the construction of his texts, as well as his construction of > himself as an author. For example, his "prophecies" about the arms race > were in part cribbed from Charles Trevelyan, circa 1914. > > Alison's suggestion that I "focus so narrowly on dynamics of power that > they obscure the experience of the poetry itself" is an interesting > attempt to reformulate my post. "Poetry itself." If it is narrow to > encourage students toward a disciplined understanding of a host of > phenomena surrounding a text, rather than just pretending to a pure > exegesis and appreciation of the text-qua-text, then I'm narrow. What I > refuse to do is credit the unexamined existence of a "poetry itself," > which Alison speaks of. I've frankly never been able to find this mythic > "poetry itself" Alison speaks of. I've found a few "poetries > themselves," each one, for better or worse, wholly invested in a system > of symbolic goods and social profit -- and the worst and most dishonest > systems are those that perform a pretense of aesthetic autonomy by > insisting on a "poetry itself." > > Regarding Canto XIII. To whomever it was who suggested I just need to > read XIII again in order to get my head screwed on straight: If that bit > of orientialism is somehow meant to serve as self-evidence of EP's > greatness, very good, enjoy your orientalist postcard. Enjoy your > everlasting thirteenth cookie. > > But literature isn't my religion. And if its yours: good, enjoy it. But > stay off my porch with your pamphlets. I don't teach religion. And I > don't buy yours, Mr. Eliot. > > My word. Is literature as a religion really this alive and well (read > necrotic and festering)? > > Where's my Nicene creed? > > Best, > > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:32:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Louis--- Thanks for that journalistic clarification, If Fascism's primary definition is the merger of state and corporate power (or even the subordination of the former to the latter), then "anti-democratic capitalism" (or corporatism) seems a very fitting characterization of fascism (to say nothing of the contemporary American cultural/ economic situation). Whether or not this has anything to do with Pound I'll leave to the self-proclaimed Poundians and Pound apologists.... Dear David-- Who wrote this article? The idea that 60 American poets celebrated Dr. Perloff becoming the new MLA President (with CB as their spokesperson) in the wake of Hussein's murder is.....interesting. A better word than interesting? Hilarious? Scary? Absurd? Sneaping? Is the analogy accurate? In a way no, but in a way yes--- Against the backdrop of the severed Hussein head, there's Haliburton/ blackwater regime and Marjorie Perloff. (as if the old MLA "cultural studies" regimes were like Hussein)... Of course, if CB is to be believed, I'm just writing about 29 December 2006 as a "Work of Art," here, and not trying to "extract sociological or historical information from" it-- Yet, even though the Dead Saddam image's cultural relevance may be tangential to the main point of this article, and to the politics of the MLA (and was used by Bush et al to 'wag the dog' for Iraqis and Americans), if we consider this article a 'work of art,' it becomes an effective journalistic device.... I don't really agree with the academic either/or binary between "Cultural Studies" and "Poetics,"-- If that is, indeed, the "two party system" that dominates the academic/literary landscape today (and I bet that Bernstein would still claim room for 'cultural studies' in his idea of poetics, though Perloff, like Vendler, is a formalist---and both are Pound apologists (though diffferent forms of Pound...and much intraparty wrangling has been known to occur over this) I'm glad you bring up Baraka as an alternative; another "third party candidate" who goes beyond the "Cultural Studies" (Saddam Hussein supported by the U.S. Gov't in the 1980s?) and "Poetics" (the Haliburton/Blackwater regime....)... and I'm glad it wasn't he who was hanged on that cold December 29th of 2006... "be a spirit, not a ghost" Chris On 29 December 2006, Saddam Hussein was hung in Baghdad , and, outside Philadelphia, at an MLA "off site" reading, roughly 60 American poets celebrated each other s works, and Dr Marjorie Perloff's becoming the new President of the MLA, With Dr Perloff's Presidency, the general consensus was that the long dark ages of cultural studies were over with, and a new era of focus on poetics would begin. "What we're interested in is talking about these works as works of art, rather than extracting the sociological or historical information from them", On Feb 17, 2008, at 12:20 AM, Louis Cabri wrote: > Maria and Nick raise important points. Perhaps the phrase > "misunderstood > poet Ezra Pound" that appears in the title of The Independent's review > refers to Pound's criticisms, in The Cantos, of what the reviewer > calls > "anti-democratic capitalism": i.e. Pound's criticisms of "anti- > democratic > capitalism" have been "misunderstood." But this also needs to be > questioned. What the review's elliptical language irresponsibly > enables a > reader to presuppose is that, were Pound's criticisms properly > "understood," The Cantos or Pound would come off as being "for" > something > either like "democratic capitalism" or "democratic anti- > capitalism." The > latter two options form one of the binaries of journalese today (hence > Pound is "really like us liberals," if only we "understood" him, and > fascism, then and now, need never be addressed, let alone > "understood"). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:22:33 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination In-Reply-To: <47B834CB.80202@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Gabe, if you misread Pound as badly as you misread me, then I feel sorry for your students. Where did I say anywhere that Pound's poetry is not connected meaningfully with his politics? Or that one should ignore or elide those politics? Nowhere, in fact. I was arguing for a reading of Pound which fully takes these into account. (I also agree that Pound "constructed himself as an author", which is why I am interested in those fractures). But this feels like bait and switch: If you had originally said, instead of calling Pound an "abomination" and an "asshole" who writes a "poetry of hatred", that you "try to show my students that Pound's consecration was a function of many different dynamics, including the sociology of author-as-fetish, the manufacture and use of symbolic goods in academe, repeated attempts to elide class and racial hatreds, the effacement of anti-semitism, the history of fascism's relation to aesthetics, and the erasure of the ways symbolic capital is produced and policed in small literary communities," we might have had a different conversation. Though rather than circling narrowly in on the what you call the politics of literary and academic consecration - something in which I have no interest at all, being neither religious nor any kind of academic - I think it might be more interesting to look at the politics of the west as a whole and examine how Pound uneasily resonates within post war assimilations of fascism, maybe through Adorno. But if the point of your teaching is to show that Pound's poetry is worthless, that in fact one shouldn't read Pound in order to study Pound, but merely as a political symptom, then we part company. The reasons that poetry matter to me are complex and in the end personal. The poetic excess that remains in Pound's work after all these critical examinations is maybe the more troubling factor in Pound's work: how much easier life would be if one could prove that Pound's poetry is only a function of a whole lot of ugly politics, and that any admiration of his work is an act of bad faith made by those who would preserve their own privilege. Maybe because I've spent my whole life reading poets who sideline my sex and my poetical, emotional, political and even my physical existence, and whose poetry nevertheless stirs, illuminates and inspires me, I am more used to negotiating these kinds of differences. No, I don't think all literature is an expression of power: I think the reverse, in fact, that there is in literature, in poetry, and even in Pound's most problematic writing, an abnegation of power that I find much more interesting. You can construe that how you will. Best A On Feb 18, 2008 12:21 AM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Why does this listserve so often remind me of a right wing AM radio > call-in show? Fascinating how when Pound's advocacy of pogroms and > systematic assassinations is even *mentioned*, certain people (was it > really 8?) jump up to ensure that those considerations are not really > connected in any meaningful way to Pound's "work" or the reception of > his work -- and that bringing that up as meaningful is in fact a good > way to be pretentiously called simplistic and dismissive. > > I return from a weekend of poetry in Chicago with friends to find a > welter of indignant responses to the suggestion that Pound's canonicity > is about power, legitimation, and fetish rather than Pound as genius, > progenitor, misunderstood and emotionally complicated father. > > I learned from this flurry of indignation that by refusing to teach > Pound as an object of adulation, I am dismissing him. I learn that I am > simplistic to explore Pound in relation to structures of literary power. > > Yes, how simplistic of me to try to show my students that Pound's > consecration was a function of many different dynamics, including the > sociology of author-as-fetish, the manufacture and use of symbolic goods > in academe, repeated attempts to elide class and racial hatreds, the > effacement of anti-semitism, the history of fascism's relation to > aesthetics, and the erasure of the ways symbolic capital is produced and > policed in small literary communities. How simplistic of me. > > How ridiculous of me to suggest to students that a more instructive set > of footnotes to, say, /The Pisan Cantos/ isn't merely Sieburth's > apologetic, almost comically Nabokovian apparatus, but instead > Sieburth's elisions and excuses taught in tandem with Leonard Doob's > transcriptions of EP's radio speeches. How foolish of me to encourage > students to not simply believe Sieburth's celebration of Pound, but to > consider Siebuth's position as an actor with a vested economic interest > in deploying a specific rhetoric designed on the one hand to augment and > mystify his object of study and on the other to reframe if not outright > efface its more horrifying aspects. And to show that Sieburth's tactics > are not peculiar to him alone but are evidence of a common structural > tactic deployed by many others in 1946, 1951, 1954, 1957, 1963, 1971, > 1977, 1983, 1996, 2001, 2003, 2008 (and just yesterday on this list). > > In fact, how dare I use Pound as a case study by which to examine the > sociology of the belief in charismatic legitimation. How dare I use > Pound to study the sociology of literature: > > I should be using Pound to study Pound. This is about venerating > authors, not helping students understand the world. > > Pound should be studied to study the greatness of Pound. > > Pound was begotten, not made! > > Interesting, too, to see all the posts seeking condescendingly to remind > me that Pound is complex. Hmm, ahh!, how could I have somehow missed > that Pound was complex? Maybe I just need to read Canto XIII again. > Gosh, I must have missed all of his trenchant economic ideas and his > sociopolitical critique and how they suggest the evils of oligarchy > capitalism, war, and the military-industrial complex. > > Alison -- in a telling example of a common trope used by celebrants and > believers -- actually goes so far as to call his thoughts on these > points "prophecies." > > These "prophecies" were ideas cribbed from numerous sources. Further, > they were descriptions of conditions already inhering, not those to > come. Calling them prophecies is a convenient way of diverting not only > any deeper understanding of EP's rhetoric, but also how deliberate he > was in the construction of his texts, as well as his construction of > himself as an author. For example, his "prophecies" about the arms race > were in part cribbed from Charles Trevelyan, circa 1914. > > Alison's suggestion that I "focus so narrowly on dynamics of power that > they obscure the experience of the poetry itself" is an interesting > attempt to reformulate my post. "Poetry itself." If it is narrow to > encourage students toward a disciplined understanding of a host of > phenomena surrounding a text, rather than just pretending to a pure > exegesis and appreciation of the text-qua-text, then I'm narrow. What I > refuse to do is credit the unexamined existence of a "poetry itself," > which Alison speaks of. I've frankly never been able to find this mythic > "poetry itself" Alison speaks of. I've found a few "poetries > themselves," each one, for better or worse, wholly invested in a system > of symbolic goods and social profit -- and the worst and most dishonest > systems are those that perform a pretense of aesthetic autonomy by > insisting on a "poetry itself." > > Regarding Canto XIII. To whomever it was who suggested I just need to > read XIII again in order to get my head screwed on straight: If that bit > of orientialism is somehow meant to serve as self-evidence of EP's > greatness, very good, enjoy your orientalist postcard. Enjoy your > everlasting thirteenth cookie. > > But literature isn't my religion. And if its yours: good, enjoy it. But > stay off my porch with your pamphlets. I don't teach religion. And I > don't buy yours, Mr. Eliot. > > My word. Is literature as a religion really this alive and well (read > necrotic and festering)? > > Where's my Nicene creed? > > Best, > > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:26:33 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Re. Pound In-Reply-To: <200802171718.m1HHIRP2007837@ms-smtp-04.rdc-nyc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Michael - this is interesting - but are you suggesting that Poe - or indeed the genre of gothic - is inherently fascist? On Feb 18, 2008 4:18 AM, Michael Heller wrote: > I've been following the Pound discussion--let me add a couple of > cents. In Uncertain Poetries (Salt 2005), I have an essay, "The > Narrative of Ezra Gorgon Pound," which a bit tongue in cheek suggests > reading the Cantos as a 'gothic,' so as to get at how Pound's ideas > about history and politics are deeply entwined in his technique--it > includes a bit of a rejoinder to my good friend Charles's "Pounding > Fascism." I post this excerpt from the book, since it gets at the > nub of the argument the way I see it: > > "We might usefully compare Pound's troping of history with the > poetics of poets such as George Oppen or Robert Duncan for whom > historical contingency is continually registed in the voice, > suggesting that history can never be entirely read as 'the past', nor > as the present either, and so, in order to be meaningful for the > present, must be passed through an active vocalizing subject. In > Oppen or Duncan, the strata of history as a series of weights on the > being of the poet, no longer remain discrete but are cumulative and > so prevent anything as straightforward as Confucist re inscription of > historical maxims. At the sama time, conscious revisionism or > admittance of known error are luxuries these poets must deny > themselves; in Duncan's case, because the event or its linguistic > signature is the gateway for entrance into a living past which is all > process continually working itself out in times and individuals; in > Oppen's, because today's word is burdened with the totality of > historical knowledge. Their 'vigilance' is of an entirely different > order from that of Pound's. > I want to conclude my discussion with a brief look at > what we can say about Pound's methodology in terms of present day > practice of poetry. My spring board is a recent essay by Charles > Bernstein in Sulphur entitled "Pounding Fascism" in which Bernstein > attempts to save Pound the technician from Pound the fascist. Let me > say at once, that I suspect the motive behind this essay has less to > do with Pound than with Bernstein's revising of literary history in > an attempt to valorize, it would seem, language centered writing as > it leans on or is beholden to Poundian poetics. > Bernstein begins with the claim that Pound's fascism, > "far from hindering the canonization of his poetry by American > literary culture, has been a major factor in its acceptance. (C. > Bernstein, 99)" Now I know of few mainstream or establishment > studies of Pound that support this view the very places it ought to > be encountered if Bernstein is correct; in fact, the 'technical' side > of Pound is what is praised in even as conservative a critic as > Blackmur who, en passant, insists that even as we admire Pound's > craft, we ought to drop the notion of Pound as a thinker or literary > critic. > Bernstein goes on to say, and this is the crucial > issue, that he does not "equate Pound's politics with Pound's > poetry. The Cantos, and other of Pound's work, are in many ways > basically at odds with the tenets of Pound's fascist ideals. (C. > Bernstein, 99)" They are at odds, according to Bernstein, because > "the 'hyperspace' of Pound's modernist collage is not a predetermined > Truth of a pan cultural elitism but a product of a compositionally > decentered multiculturalism...a polyvocal textuality...the result of > his search for deeper truths than could be revealed by more > monadically organized poems operating with a single voice and a > single perspective. (C. Bernstein, 100)" > Now it is most probably the case that if Pound were a > maker of 'monadically organized' poems, if he had written in the > style of D'Annunzio for example, few in the American literary > establishment would have insisted on his canonization. On the other > hand, if one perceives The Cantos as something like a gothic, its > 'multiculturalism" is an illusion, its "polyvocal textuality" a > chorus of foreign sounding voices all mouthing the same rules and > verities. If you accept this point of view, then Bernstein's > analysis leaves one major question still begging, the one I have > tried to develop in this paper: whether Poundian techniques, in > particular the cultural plundering, revising and activity of > selection induced by the search for history's repeats, the absence of > a clearly defined authorial voice, tend to undermine fascist > tendencies or aid in furthering them. > At this point, my own answer to the question must be > necessarily quite tentative, but my argument goes something like > this: Recent studies of the aesthetics of fascism (such as > Friedlander's mentioned above) acknowledge not only the fascist need > for rigidity, its fears of social and cultural disorder, but also > demonstrate how fascism creates imagery and phantasms and other > machinery for the generation of fear and anxiety in order to maintain > itself. These are what Elias Canetti, in speaking about fascism, > calls "the adjacency of construction and destruction". > The mechanisms of fascism not only respond to the > indeterminate but use it, feeding it back into the social system, > creating anxiety and paranoia in order to maintain and accomplish > political purposes. Friedlander describes this as "the fusion of > kitsch and death" where through aesthetic devices, anxiety and > authority are everywhere and nowhere, a blend of domestic, mythic and > archaic materials which produce a disembodied gotterdammerung of > calculated effects. > I would suggest that The Cantos, seen as a gothic, > approximate, on the linguistic level, this technology of > fascism. Pound, as he selects from history and rewrites where > necessary, may in fact be operating his own Orwellian Ministry of > Truth (or as Plato would probably call it, The Ministry of Poetry). > For what most effectively maintains a totalitarian state > of mind is not unassailable logic but unassailable 'thought'. And > thought is first of all unassailable when 'authorship' is put in > doubt, when history seems like a series of repeats, and texts are no > longer the products of writers but historical inevitabilities. The > sense of historical inevitablity, as both Froula and Michael Andre > Bernstein point out, is precisely what Pound sets out to achieve > through his maskings and erasures of authorship. And it is this > troublesome legacy which has been raised to an unexamined and > somewhat mystical status in much contemporary theory of writing and > reading. > As in the gothic, Pound's poem has elided the very rule > of 'sincerity' he set for himself. For sincerity demands in a sense > accountability, and accountability demands an author or voice. The > Cantos like Pym, obscures authorship, not because of its polyvocal > texture, but because the gothic form must trade, not on believability > but on a vicarious believability, the emotional conviction that this > dangerous stuff called history is safely happening to you. The > gothic thrall, the fictive aura of terror inspired by Poe's stories, > is close to the dramaturgy of Pound's poem with its parade of > decisive heroes performing their deeds. I would add that these > kinds of emotional tonalities may not be far from that which the > Leader creates when he tells the crowd how powerful it is and its > members believe it." --Michael Heller > > > Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and > Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) available at > www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good bookstores. Survey of > work at http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm Collaborations > with the composer Ellen Fishman Johnson at > http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:55:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii David and Chris, This kind of 'criticism' feels a bit opportunistic and pointless ... first, who stopped their day short when Saddam Hussein was, unbeknownst to the American public, hanged? I didn't even hear about it until the nightly news. Should I have foreseen the event and stopped teaching my Writing Poetry class earlier that evening? Second, the quote from the MLA event does not exclude the kind of inquiry Bernstein outlines in "Pounding Fascism" -- he did not say, "We will not teach students to consider the sociological and historical effects on poetry or vice versa." What he did say is something that is taught in most basic poetry courses, which is that we will study poems as works of art ("art" certainly does not exclude considerations of the influence of history and sociology), and we will not teach students to 'extract sociological information,' as in, we're not mining poems for facts ("information") and throwing the stylized husks away, but rather something more complex: we'll study how poems function, create and sell what they seem to sell, how artifice illicits/solicits emotional and intellectual response, etc. Nice mining for that quote though ... What I find more compelling about this kind of reaching 'argument' is its frequency and that it seems to appear whenever Bernstein is mentioned as though he is some kind of pariah to be dealt blows on appearance alone ... I'd really like to know what it is about Language Poetry (I'm assuming this is an associative response) that is so threatening that a) everything he has written is blanketly stamped with disapproval and b) the mere mention of the man conjures an aggressive affront worthy of a murderer. I should note that those who react to the mere mention of his name usually tend to be a rotating few. But the vehemence ... it astounds me. Usually when I don't agree with someone's politics and/or poetry, I say I don't like it, I might even go so far as to not like them and dismiss the entire package -- but I don't assume the attack position if they walk into the room, reach for the fact that he sneezed and then read it as an insult to validate my punch. My experiences with Bernstein (studied with him, but moreover, read his books) have revealed a generous spirit -- he has promoted poets of all kinds of flavors and styles, he allows for a wide range of ideas and discourse in his classroom as an educator, he has given poets this platform to voice their opinions, disagree, including criticism of his own work -- but some of that criticism has extended to him as a person, and that's the part I don't get. He has maintained this forum for many years now where I likely would have buckled. So really, I guess I'm just wondering about the handful of poets here who go beyond criticizing his work to transparently misconstrue and attack him in a way that really speaks to the attackers' desires ... Amy _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog Faculty Page http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Stroffolino To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:32:08 PM Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot Dear David-- Who wrote this article? The idea that 60 American poets celebrated Dr. Perloff becoming the new MLA President (with CB as their spokesperson) in the wake of Hussein's murder is.....interesting. A better word than interesting? Hilarious? Scary? Absurd? Sneaping? Is the analogy accurate? In a way no, but in a way yes--- Against the backdrop of the severed Hussein head, there's Haliburton/blackwater regime and Marjorie Perloff. (as if the old MLA "cultural studies" regimes were like Hussein)... Of course, if CB is to be believed, I'm just writing about 29 December 2006 as a "Work of Art," here, and not trying to "extract sociological or historical information from" it-- Yet, even though the Dead Saddam image's cultural relevance may be tangential to the main point of this article, and to the politics of the MLA (and was used by Bush et al to 'wag the dog' for Iraqis and Americans), if we consider this article a 'work of art,' it becomes an effective journalistic device.... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:14:35 -0500 Reply-To: Joel Lewis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Lewis Subject: ezra pound as asshole, etc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone out in Listserv land know the issue of Sulfur that Michael Palmer's essay on Pound was in? I recall it was a fascinating discussion of the extreme rightwing scholarship that is attracted to Pound. I suspect one reason that ND books never did a further volume of selected letters past the 1941 close of the existing book that, in addition to corresponding to Paul Blackburn, etc,. Pound was writing to such luminaries as George Lincoln Rockwell, founder of the American Nazi Party, and others who would surface in the 60s as leaders of the most extreme elements of the American Right. In fact, Rockwell and his ilk were regular visitors to Pound's room at St. Elizabeth. So, what's a poet to do? As a younger writer, I was assured" by Allen Ginsberg, Denise Levertov and other poets w/ left-wing creditentials to ignore the politics and read the poetry. Exhibit "A" was Ginsberg's account of playing the Beatles and Donovan to the old poet and his comments of regret. Then, the radio Broadcasts of Pound became available --making him the Allen Freed of Fascism w/ the scattered comments found here and there in cantos about Usury emerging as full-blown pathological anti-Semitism. Since then, much more stuff has emerged that has really changed his position among poets. What to do? There is a whole segment of American poetry that ignores his poetry based on the rejection of his politics --I have in mind Stanley Kunitz and poets in his wide circle. The results is a poetry though high on moral efficacy is low in interest for those interested in innovative writing. The only poet in the mainstream who is vocal in his interest in Pound is Charles Wright. Maybe Pound needs to be seen as an extreme view among a community of Modernists who were unembarrassed enough about their anti-Semitism to stick it in their poems (Eliot, Cummings), casually supported Fascism in their letters (Stevens), could refer to Alfred Steiglitz in print as that "dammed Jew from Hoboken' (WCW) or would just refuse to attend a party in honor of Langston Hughes (Tate and Robert Penn Warren). Joel Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:30:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Chapman Subject: Pound, Steiner, and wondering about the gothic and consecration... In-Reply-To: <483258.98186.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, The Pound threads are very interesting and I'm looking forward to reading both Zhaomin Qian and Michael Heller's books. _Cantos_ as Gothic? I like this idea. I've been wondering how to introduce the location of Sermione into a discussion of Pound's editorial imagination. That was where he edited _Wasteland_. A more 'Goth' locale there isn't. Perhaps we might think about what Pound was consecrating instead of how we must best consecrate Pound? A dialectic understanding of the man and his work still seems the best for doing the latter. I do wonder about what Pound was visioning forth. It changes it seems- Riding and Graves' understanding of Pound's "Ballad of the Goodly Frere", its "imitated antiqueness" and all, reminds me of George Steiner, where, in his Babel book, he talks about the translationese of _Cathay_ and _The Seafarer_ as being purposeful archaisms he used to instantiate putatively false and alternative and virtual memories of what it is that had been unwritten in history, to make the unwritten history present in his poetry, to make _The Cantos_ a poem containing history. "The translator can manipulate anachronisms for special effects" (Steiner 367). Steiner discusses _Cathay_ and suggests that that Charlie Chan tin-pan voice is used to create "a general phenomenon of hermeneutic trust" with his readers out here in the far far west (377). Pound and his readers conspire, Steiner says, through their ignorance, to learn something new. The point though may not have been to learn much about China at all. Pound accepted Fenollosa's manuscripts skeptically in Sarojini Naidhu's London apartment. So it seems. Steiner also argues that Celia and Louis Zukofsky's _Catullus_ is anything but homage. Rather it is a linguistic collage that aims to "project possible futures" (370). They learned this technique, Steiner suggests tacitly, I think, by studying _Cathay_. Consecration is a part of Pound's motive - but not its object. He was an iconoclast first, non? "We endure, we endure creatively due to our imperative ability to say 'No' to reality, to build fictions of alterity, of dreamt or willed or awaited 'otherness' for our consciousness to inhabit. It is in this precise sense that the utopian and the messianic are figures of syntax." (_After Babel_ xiv) So when it comes to a question of what Pound was consecrating we could do worse than to think about how he used translation. Chris understanding of the balladQuoting amy king : > Dear Michael, > > You claim that Bernstein's "revising literary history" (a claim you also > don't explain) is an attempt to 'valorize language centered writing' -- I'm > not trying to be provocative here & I read your excerpt, but I just don't > understand what you base this assumption on or why. Did you arrive at this > conclusion simply by association? > > Also, your argument on Pound seems to require an either/or position -- Either > Pound's poetry uses the authorial voice of 'fascist aesthetics' successfully > or it legitimately uses the polyvocal textuality that supports/explores the > indeterminate and its uncertain possibilities (& becomes a gothic?). You > state that using the former -- the "technology of fascism" ("The > mechanisms > of > fascism > not > only > respond > to > the indeterminate > but > use > it, feeding > it > back > into > the > social > system, creating > anxiety > and > paranoia > in > order > to > maintain > and > accomplish political > purposes.") - renders the indeterminate an "illusion", either making the > implications and repercussions of indeterminacy invisible or absorbing > indeterminacy for its own fascist use. > > ... As if contradictions can't co-exist, as if readers don't selectively > celebrate and promote, esp conservative ones as you named, one style over > another - willfully ignoring other styles employed and the effects they have > - while also quietly using the politics of the co-existing style to explore & > dip a toe into that forbidden pond ... Pound's fascism betrays his poetic > intent as he used the polyvocal to query and explore *despite* his focus on > authorial proclamations and certainties to establish a "phallic order" > (Pound's term) ... What, and moreover, *How* we hate reveals and speaks > volumes, sometimes betraying us and that coherent/concrete facade we're so > intent on constructing, even despite what we say we're trying to sell ... > > The cracks and fissures and bubbles and behind-the-scenes and oh-my-slip > eventually start showing ... > > Someone asked me to give an example of how politics can inform poetry, and > while I'm no good at critical explanation, esp any attempt to expound on > Pound - ha - the following excerpt from Robert Graves' and Laura Riding's A > SURVEY OF MODERNIST POETRY might elucidate, not so favorably, a bit: > > "...indeed a great deal of what passes for poetry is the rewriting of the > prose summary of a hypothetical poem in poetical language. Before further > discussing this particular poem, let us quote the beginning of a ballad by > Mr. Ezra Pound in illustration of the prose-idea poeticalized: > > THE BALLAD OF THE GOODLY FERE > (Simon Zelotes speaketh it somewhile after the crucifixion) > > Ha' we lost the goodliest fere o' all > For the priests and the gallows tree? > Aye, lover he was of brawny men > O' ships and the open sea. > > When they came wi' a host to take Our Man > His smile was good to see, > "First let these go!" quo' our Goodly Fere, > "Or I'll see ye damned", says he. > > Aye, he sent us out through the crossed high spears, > And the scorn of his laugh rang free, > "Why tood ye not me when I walked about > Alone in the town?" says he. > > Oh, we drank his "Hale" in the good red wine > When we last made company, > No capon priest was the Goodly Fere > But a man o' men was he. > > I ha' seen him drive a hundred men > Wi' a bundle o' cords swung free > When they took the high and holy house > For their pawn and treasury .... > > Stripped of its imitated antiqueness, the substance of all this could be > given simply as follows: "It would be false to identify the Christ of the > sentimentalists with the Christ of the Gospels. So far from being a meek or > effeminate character He strikes us as a very manly man, and His disciples, > fishermen and others, must have reverenced Him for His manly qualities as > much as for His spiritual teaching. His action in driving money-changers > from the Temple with a scourge of cords is a proof of this. So is His > courageous action when confronted by the soldiers of the High Priest sent to > arrest Him--He mockingly enquired why they had not dared arrest Him > previously when He walked about freely in the city of Jerusalem, and > consented to offer no resistence only if His disciples were allowed to > escape. The Last Supper was surely a very different scene from the Church > Sacrament derived from it, where a full-fed priest condescendingly > officiates; it was a > banquet of friends of which the Dearest Friend was Our Saviour." Here we > see that the poeticalization has in fact weakened the historical argument. > By using the ballad setting Mr. Pound has made the fishermen of Galilee into > North-country sailors of the Patrick Spens tradition and given them > sentiments more proper to the left wing of the Y.M.C.A." ... > > --from Robert Graves' and Laura Riding's A SURVEY OF MODERNIST POETRY > > > Amy > _______ > > Blog > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > Faculty Page > > http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Michael Heller > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:18:19 PM > Subject: Re. Pound > > > > > > > > > I > want > to > conclude > my > discussion > with > a > brief > look > at > what > we > can > say > about > Pound's > methodology > in > terms > of > present > day > practice > of > poetry. > My > spring > board > is > a > recent > essay > by > Charles > Bernstein > in > Sulphur > entitled > "Pounding > Fascism" > in > which > Bernstein > attempts > to > save > Pound > the > technician > from > Pound > the > fascist. > Let > me > say > at > once, > that > I > suspect > the > motive > behind > this > essay > has > less > to > do > with > Pound > than > with > Bernstein's > revising > of > literary > history > in > an > attempt > to > valorize, > it > would > seem, > language > centered > writing > as > it > leans > on > or > is > beholden > to > Poundian > poetics. > > > > > > > > Bernstein > begins > with > the > claim > that > Pound's > fascism, > "far > from > hindering > the > canonization > of > his > poetry > by > American > literary > culture, > has > been > a > major > factor > in > its > acceptance. > (C. > Bernstein, > 99)" > Now > I > know > of > few > mainstream > or > establishment > studies > of > Pound > that > support > this > view > the > very > places > it > ought > to > be > encountered > if > Bernstein > is > correct; > in > fact, > the > 'technical' > side > of > Pound > is > what > is > praised > in > even > as > conservative > a > critic > as > Blackmur > who, > en > passant, > insists > that > even > as > we > admire > Pound's > craft, > we > ought > to > drop > the > notion > of > Pound > as > a > thinker > or > literary > critic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:35:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: ezra pound as asshole - literature as abomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison, You seem publicly concerned that I misread you, so I'm replying to you personally here. You seemed concerned that my last post was addressed to you personally -- and that it was accusing you personally of elisions regarding Pound. My post was an omnibus reply to the many robust and sometimes empty responses to this thread while I was away, yours among them. My post was not a reading of you per se. Where my post mentioned your reading of Pound as a prophet, I did quote you, yes. The bottom of my post -- in which I did quote you characterizing Pound as a prophet and in which I mark your notion as idealist, if not utopian, that poetry can exist as "poetry itself" free from a "dynamics of power" -- also bears a quotation from you. Beyond that, the reply was general. But as to where I did mention you: I hear your concern that EP be treated appropriately, that he be understood as Author and Poet and Prophet, that he not be "dismissed," and that his "prophecies" (to use your word) be understood "shorn of their Anti-semitism." (your phrasing) I also hear you suggesting we "part company" if I read EP "merely as a political symptom." I feel we do part company, yes, but not for that reason: I do not feel he's "merely" a political excrescence. We part company because I cannot adopt a specifically aesthetic disposition regarding EP. So, no, I don't see him as a shaman, or a sacred heretic, or a "conflicted vates" and certainly not as a prophet uttering "prophecies." Especially if they are "shorn of their Anti-semitism." As for your concerns about my students: they can take care of themselves, believe me. In part because of where they are in their lifecourse, their familial and institutional subject positions make them particularly savvy at seeing through, and understanding the reasons for, the host of myths about authorship proffered by the field. I learn a great deal from them. Best and be well, Gabriel PS. I was stuck, Alison, by this text from one of your posts. "Maybe because I've spent my whole life reading poets who sideline my sex and my poetical, emotional, political and even my physical existence, and whose poetry nevertheless stirs, illuminates and inspires me, I am more used to negotiating these kinds of differences." I had one final question about gender. Specifically your thesis here about how gender inflects and heightens your abilities to negotiate "these kinds of differences." I find it fascinating that you seem to be saying that the fact that you're a woman makes it easier for you to overlook Pound's hatred of Jews, Slavs, Africans, African-Americans, and his encouraging his listeners to murder Jews, bankers and political leaders. Forgive me for asking if I'm way off base here, but it does stand out as a curious thing to say -- is that what you're saying there? I'm just not sure how to read that. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:54:35 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot In-Reply-To: <607190.26632.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm quite tired Amy since it is already midnight here but I will give you the answer even if quickly. Your question is rhetorical and naive: general envy, mistrust and so forth. Add to it whatever you wish of the sort. Man is fundamentally lazy and belongs to the hypocritical species and much worse (see Dante's Inferno) but hates the one who is able to rise above the average and will do whatever he can to cut him out. And if you continue as you have been doing since when I first met you, you will follow the same fate. What Gabe said before that this seems a bunch of fascists was not completely out of order. Hopefully you will receive more reassuring answers. I am done for the day. On Feb 17, 2008 9:55 PM, amy king wrote: > David and Chris, > > This kind of 'criticism' feels a bit opportunistic and pointless ... > first, who stopped their day short when Saddam Hussein was, unbeknownst to > the American public, hanged? I didn't even hear about it until the nightly > news. Should I have foreseen the event and stopped teaching my Writing > Poetry class earlier that evening? > > > Second, the quote from the MLA event does not exclude the kind of inquiry > Bernstein outlines in "Pounding Fascism" -- he did not say, "We will not > teach students to consider the sociological and historical effects on poetry > or vice versa." What he did say is something that is taught in most basic > poetry courses, which is that we will study poems as works of art ("art" > certainly does not exclude considerations of the influence of history and > sociology), and we will not teach students to 'extract sociological > information,' as in, we're not mining poems for facts ("information") and > throwing the stylized husks away, but rather something more complex: we'll > study how poems function, create and sell what they seem to sell, how > artifice illicits/solicits emotional and intellectual response, etc. Nice > mining for that quote though ... > > What I find more compelling about this kind of reaching 'argument' is its > frequency and that it seems to appear whenever Bernstein is mentioned as > though he is some kind of pariah to be dealt blows on appearance alone ... > I'd really like to know what it is about Language Poetry (I'm assuming this > is an associative response) that is so threatening that a) everything he has > written is blanketly stamped with disapproval and b) the mere mention of the > man conjures an aggressive affront worthy of a murderer. I should note that > those who react to the mere mention of his name usually tend to be a > rotating few. But the vehemence ... it astounds me. Usually when I don't > agree with someone's politics and/or poetry, I say I don't like it, I might > even go so far as to not like them and dismiss the entire package -- but I > don't assume the attack position if they walk into the room, reach for the > fact that he sneezed and then read it as an insult to validate my > punch. My experiences with Bernstein (studied with him, but moreover, > read his books) have revealed a generous spirit -- he has promoted poets of > all kinds of flavors and styles, he allows for a wide range of ideas and > discourse in his classroom as an educator, he has given poets this platform > to voice their opinions, disagree, including criticism of his own work -- > but some of that criticism has extended to him as a person, and that's the > part I don't get. He has maintained this forum for many years now where I > likely would have buckled. So really, I guess I'm just wondering about the > handful of poets here who go beyond criticizing his work to transparently > misconstrue and attack him in a way that really speaks to the attackers' > desires ... > > Amy > > _______ > > > > > > Blog > > > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > Faculty Page > > > > http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Chris Stroffolino > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:32:08 PM > Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot > Dear > David-- > > Who > wrote > this > article? > The > idea > that > 60 > American > poets > celebrated Dr. > Perloff becoming > the > new > MLA > President > (with > CB > as > their > spokesperson) > in > the > wake of > Hussein's > murder > is.....interesting. A > better > word > than > interesting? > Hilarious? > Scary? > Absurd? > Sneaping? Is > the > analogy > accurate? > In > a > way > no, > but > in > a > way > yes--- > > Against > the > backdrop > of > the > severed > Hussein > head, > there's > Haliburton/blackwater > regime and > Marjorie > Perloff. (as > if > the > old > MLA > "cultural > studies" > regimes > were > like > Hussein)... > > Of > course, > if > CB > is > to > be > believed, > I'm > just > writing > about > 29 December > 2006 as > a > "Work > of > Art," > here, > and > not > trying > to > "extract > sociological > or historical > information > from" > it-- > > Yet, > even > though > the > Dead > Saddam > image's > cultural > relevance > may > be tangential > to > the > main > point > of > this > article, and > to > the > politics > of > the > MLA > (and > was > used > by > Bush > et > al > to > 'wag the > dog' > for > Iraqis > and > Americans), if > we > consider > this > article > a > 'work > of > art,' > it > becomes > an > effective journalistic > device.... > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Recent posts to the Heatstrings Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Newish stuff on the blog -- The Slave Trade exhibit at the Biritish Museum New books by Dubois, Martin, Scappetone "America's Foremost Black Intellectual" guess who ---- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:22:35 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Fascist poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Gabe I'm not sure how much we're understanding each other. Possibly not at all. I am sure your students do manage perfectly well, but perhaps you might understand my mistrust of your reading of Pound if you quote what I said so wilfully and partially. You distort my meanings seriously; for instance by taking out of context what I said originally about the possible interest of reading Pound as a counter-argument to the triumphalism of the post-war west, a hostile critiquer who might, through all his spleen, have a couple of points that are borne out in the western arms industry and financial markets, to suggest that I am buying into the whole Poet-As-Seer business and, worse, seeking to ignore and excuse his anti-Semitism. (OK, it was unwise to use the word "prophecy", mea culpa - will foresight do?) And yet I am precisely interested in the conflict that occurs in the collision between Pound as aesthetic and political phenomenon. That is why I framed Pound as a dilemma and a problem; not in order to fillet the poetry out of the political and psychological tangle that Pound in fact is, but in order to attempt to see the energies within that poetry more clearly. What bothers me about what you're saying is that, unlike Bernstein, you don't address the poems _at all_. It is possible to talk about Pound without speaking about the affect and qualities of his poetry, of course, but I wonder what the point is; and I am interested in poetry, and so want to talk about the poems. I don't know what you mean by a "specifically aesthetic position", but to characterise my admiration of his poetry - although, like all poets, he had his better and worse days - as an embrace of the vatic seer means I have bizarrely misexpressed myself, since what I actually think is so very far from that position. Why isn't it possible to read Pound as Olson read Melville, as an expression of the American machine, in Pound's case perhaps a psychotic expression which seems curiously aligned to the paranoia and psychosis of contemporary US politics? Why is that desire read by you as an _excusing_ or _overlooking_ of Pound's politics, when it is in fact the reverse? And even if one did this - which is perhaps more to the point - how does this explain the poetry? Isn't there something that eludes this framing, and that yet can neither be ignored nor dismissed? Is the fractured and radical beauty - I know, unfashionable word, but that is what I mean - that Pound attained simply an expression of his fascist politics? It doesn't really bear much resemblance to the art - unambiguous, realist, uplifting - that the Nazis, for instance, promoted. So what does it mean to say that the poetry is fascist? There have been some interesting suggestions in this conversation, but I wonder all the same... Joel Lewis puts the problem well: "What to do? There is a whole segment of American poetry that ignores his poetry based on the rejection of his politics --I have in mind Stanley Kunitz and poets in his wide circle. The results is a poetry though high on moral efficacy is low in interest for those interested in innovative writing." In relation to this question of uneasy politics: there's an exemplary essay on Yeats and his fascist leanings by David Lloyd in his book Anomalous States, which in beginning with the poetry itself - its "obsessive and haunting quality" - doesn't, as you seem to be in your posts here, make an argument to annihilate Yeats' poetry from the face of the earth as an abomination, and yet is very clear about how fascist or authoritarian thought wound through Yeats' aesthetic. Eg: "All this is to suggest neither that we abandon political judgment to aesthetic adoration nor that there is anything to be gained by simple ethical condemnation... though I show that Yeats' authoritarian political predelictions are as insistent as they they are consistent with his aesthetic, that argument is of little avail when it comes to the attempt to comprehend the obsessive, haunting quality of his poetry.... Insofar as the ends of any state are questioned in the questioning of its beginning, Yeats' insistent brooding on the issue of political and poetic foundation _holds these questions open_ in a manner which continues to arrest our thinking." (My emphasis). Lloyd goes on to look at some poems in detail, and sketches Yeats's ideology and aesthetic in relation to the emergence of the Irish state. It's an argument that I can't summarise here, but which I think is deeply illuminating. Towards the end, Lloyd says that the terror of Yeats' poetry comes from the clarity of his recognition that death exists at the heart of culture and in the base of the state. "If, as Walter Benjamin put it, fascism is the 'aestheticisation of politics', Yeats' writings are profoundly antagonistic to the the representational aesthetics in which fascism finds its legitimation... but to recognise this is to recognise equally the futility of any condemnation of Yeats' politics in the name of representational democracy, for it is to the same symbolic aesthetic that democratic states appeal for their own legitimation..." Which is a pretty interesting paradox, and perhaps a parallel thought might be pursued with Pound. For me, it's precisely this suspension, the "holding open" of questions, the faultines and fractures and contradictions, that interest me in Pound: he is, like most poets, least interesting when he thinks he knows what he's doing, and most interesting when most conflicted. But I guess it all depends what you want from poems. I don't seek ethical certainty or political cleanliness. If I read and enjoy Milton (and I do) that doesn't mean I subscribe to his ideas about women or that I become a revolutionary puritan: I have a self with which I can engage this other poetry. And I assume everybody else does. So I am not sure where you're heading here Gabe - to the tribunals and Year Zero? Who is pure enough for you? My point about gender is a simple one. There are a large number of poets from whom I have gained much from in my practice as a poet. However, I can't read these poets without facing the fact that they subscribe to the gendered prejudices of their time and sex and place. (Pick your poets, from Homer on). I suppose you won't question that the vast majority of western poetry has been male-oriented, reflecting and often promoting a male dominated hierarchy, and you could argue that is still largely the case. I could, if I were to follow your logic, throw all those poets out of the window, dismiss all their poetics as irredeemably sexist and corrupted by patriarchal models that are violent, authoritarian and have been consistently disempowering, even murderous, to women. That would no doubt clear me of all ethical difficulty, but it would leave me with very little poetry. On the other hand, I could choose to engage with those poets whose work I admire in an active dialogue, in which I am aware of these histories of violence and disempowerment, and attempt to work out what it is that nevertheless moves and stirs me in the poems that these people have made. That requires a certain suppleness and stubbornness of relationship, a dance of refusals as well as acceptances, most of all an acceptance that, while Poet X may be male, he is also of the same species and - often - language, and we might be said to have something in common as well as difference. Most of all, it means that I am continually seeking to see those poetries as clearly as I can, as works of art that I am encountering in a particular time and place, which constellate particular effects and meanings that occur in interior and personal ways, and that were written in specific historic and social contexts that also condition - but do not determine - my own responses. Ie, I'm talking about an open-ended and argumentative and uncertain process that pursues curiosity rather than judgment. Anyway, thanks for the provocation. I am not sure how interesting it might be to anyone else to continue explaining myself, that can just get boring, and I'd rather not bore. So I hope this is as clear as I would like it to be. Cheers Alison -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:28:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Like Chris suggests, "anti-democratic capitalism" can be taken in many directions. I resort to a Marxian view that criticizing finance capitalism is what the reviewer means, when he suggests Pound's Cantos criticize "anti-democratic capitalism." That's to read the Cantos only for their detective plot ("fifteen years on the case!" etc). And "finance capital" isn't Pound's theoretical generality (no more than is "modernism"). Anyway, so this reviewer, I'm suggesting, says that what is "misunderstood" is that that is Pound's real subject, namely finance capitalism. The problem with such a generous New Leftish reading is that the Cantos don't merely point to the material effects of finance capital like some Agassiz towering over a fish. The text also and very amply offers, in almost all its nooks and crannies, theories about systemic "root" causes of, and solutions to, what a Marxist would call finance capitalism. These purported causes and solutions are offensive, stupid, terrifying, fascistic. Who reads the Cantos, symptomatically even, for their criticisms of "finance capital"? Tellingly, not even Fredric Jameson, it would seem. Maybe it's time, as it would let the history into a form that does its utmost to include it, a form that has barely begun to be closely read. Best, Louis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: contradiction of untethering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed contradiction of untethering power and the tethering of one to another. short-hand rewrites of moments erased, untethered from the real. the soaring mind outstripped the tethered heart. thet ef en _entethereng_ ef lengeege end emege, es fremes meve en theer fills with camels; there are goats baaing tethered for their milk and tethered-to-you ring, ectoplasms, nuances, _the uncanny_ tethered ta the mather, tethered ta the ather mather of< >the< >tethering< >of< >each< >and< >every< >bird< >in< >flight her arms tethered the knife slicing away at alan's wasted breasts. by tethers like that, this, the other, just as the parts of me beg for a dead man in a gully, why do you leave me tethered like a beautiful severed, sky tethered, remnants tethered, tethered inward, the air untethered, riggings the ritual objects and tethered animals. the sacred mats and hairs of only one color. the banners and winds. the ritual objects and tethered animals. the sloppiness of letters and text loosely tethered to the world. i will language, untethering of thought, which wanders blindly among surfaces. of language, untethering of thought, which wiancders blindly among our worlds are loosely tethered our worlds are loosely tethered our worlds are loosely tethered our worlds are loosely tethered retethered - the thinking of the return - nomadic homing-in - retethered - the thinking of the return - nomadic homing-in - corrals retethered - the thinking of the return - nomadic homing-in - corrals of this world, not of us. the tether always breaks. we built ourselves cut at last, untethered real floating off and on - that is it wants to hold on to the tethers in all weathers, i know when emptied, swollen and diffused in air, untethered, transfigured. swollen diffused air, untethered, transfigured. nor other, is, carries tethered trappings tethered trappings tethered trappings - tethered trappings tethered trappings attention to itself through the remaining tethers - it's there that the similar grounds when unnecessary, always _untethering,_ from running, from untethering the witnesses! untethering languagings! untethering the witnesses! untethering languagings! matters strings dark quarks strings from quarks no untethering languagings\! the witnesses\! untethering emptied out more\! no more\! no boiling quarks strings dark matters soul emptied untethering witnesses untethering the witnesses! untethering the witnesses! untethering the witnesses! tethering. untethering languagings! untethering the witnesses! untethering languagings! untethering the witnesses! untethering the witnesses! untethering languagings! untethering the witnesses! untethering languagings! dis/semination crosses the tethering of virtuals, reddened, present. tethered in nothing, present or absent. tether to dross that's we're fragility obsolescence inhering untethered tenuously tethered bits bytes unhinging of language already inconceivably tethered. avatars bypass untethered untethered the world tethered by such pronouncements, on the surface of the world, tethering,pronouncements, but on what? imperfectly, we are fastened to the untethered untethered into sickness, consciousness like that, drooling tethered from past, just primordial thought of the "my avatars are leashed, tethered to logical tethered to logical reach of avatars. reach avatars. of and my people! my emanations tether flesh to representation worlds disappear, tethered to exhausted signs. you're dancing, tethered; the dance conforms to tethering; there's no member tight; your dancing, tethering me; i'm held there; the dance is tethered at a root somewhat distanced from the object-image itself, it : i can change more than any of you. but i'm tethered to you. untethered, release, haunted - oh i cried when i found it, this delicate hold carry cultural skein linking loosely tethered short-hand rewrites erased, untethered real. reread after numerous parts; within the analogic, parts are holes, sintered, untethered, tethered and somewhat distanced ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:29:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City Staff Changes Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, Some staff changes to announce as of issue 49 (due in March): --Poetry co-editor Laura Elrick has stepped aside to concentrate on school and teaching full-time, and Rodrigo Toscano will continue on, sans the co. --Politics editor Christina Strong will shift her focus toward our website, http://welcometoboogcity.com/, and other projects. And I'm real happy to announce that Jen Benka and Carol Mirakove are coming onboard as politics co-editors. (This also makes Carol our first two section editor, as she previously served as poetry editor in 2004.) as ever, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:13:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Sherwood Subject: Pound - Poetics and Politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Last week, an undergraduate exchange student asked me "Isn't it true that the modernists were against women?" What I hear behind this question as behind some of the comments and observations to the list of late is a desire to dismiss a writer on political grounds. The hurling of labels, whether political/ideological or simply scatalogical is never a very promising beginning to a dialogue, presuming that is one wants to enter a conversation rather than merely blow off steam. Attempting to celebrate the poetry by severing it from the politics or simply dismissing the poetry on account of the politics ... two sides of the save evasive coin. Why not reflect on the complex negotiations with Pound in some of his better readers? Oppen at the Mediterranean shore listening to EP discuss the "boss," Zukofsky reconciling his personal friendship. I'm reminded of this Bernstein follow-up to the poetics list of many years ago: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/essays/poundbern.html Rachel DuPlessis cultural poetics essays (Propounding Modernist Maleness, * Modernism/Modernity* 9.3 (2002) 389-405) model, on a different ideological vector, ways of reading in and through the politics. How much of the ideological "antipathy" towards Pound is based on a reading of the politics of and within the poetry? How much reflects the received wisdom about his radio broadcasts? Let's not reduce the list to the equivalent of a CNN Presidential Candidate likability poll. Whether one would rather have a beer with Ezra Pound or Mina Loy is really not the question. Or, I should say, is not a question I find very promising. Who, besides Ben Friedlander, has actually listened to the polemical broadcasts? __________________________________ Kenneth Sherwood, PhD Associate Professor of English Graduate Program in Literature and Criticism 110 Leonard Hall Indiana University of Pennsylvania Indiana, PA 15705 www.sherwoodweb.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:00:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: assuming the defense position? In-Reply-To: <607190.26632.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Amy--- I'll respond to the "opportunistic and pointless" charge... In my response to David, I was primarily curious in the language of that piece of journalism he was quoting. I hadn't really been following this thread that deeply, so forgive me if I missed some history, but I was mildly (but genuinely) curious (still am) who wrote the piece, as I couldn't tell in David's post when the MLA journalist's writing stopped and David's own commentary started. I thought asking David to talk more about it would be an interesting entry into the conversation about Pound and such (since I'm less interested in Pound than in the issues that often come up when his name is evoked). Regardless of who wrote that piece (the one that begins with the Hussein reference), I was curious about what the writers' attitude/ stance/agenda, what-have-you- might be, because it's interesting for me to hear what others (alive) think, and put-forth, when they use words like 'cultural studies' and 'poetics'-- hotly contested words and phrases in certain circles that I sometimes have to put an appearance in... Anyway, even if I may end up largely disagreeing with the author of that piece, I also have to admire the intelligence that made the 'inappropriate' leap from Hussein to whomever was head of the MLA before Perloff- So I tried in that post to parse out what he was saying. I guess I don't see what is 'opportunistic' or 'pointless' about that.... Yeah, maybe because my piece tried to be somewhat playful (as I was thinking about the two allegedly opposing views---"cultural studies" and "poetics"--I felt I had to try to balance the "deadly serious" tone with a playful one to find that balance), my tone could be read as flippant. But I'm curious about how (or why) what I wrote can be taken as "assuming an attack position".... I distrust the naturalization of many aspects Pound's poetics (I'm not even talking about the fascism issue here, though that may play a part) in contemporary American poetry, and I find myself confronting it, almost daily, in my work as a teacher, poet, and other writing (not so much in my music, coz the Pound-assumptions aren't so much an issue there). Sure, there will be times I catch my self spouting a Poundian-ism here and there, or find points of agreement with Vendler, Perloff, Bernsteiin, and others, but I do agree with those who argue that contemporary poetry is still understood too narrowly (I'm trying to avoid the word 'boring') and want to encourage students (and others who may be skeptical toward "poetry'') to realize that "poetry" can have a wider range than many spokespeople for it acknowledge or admit (whether 'mainstream' or whatever...), to say nothing of what others who never really read much poetry (besides say "My Papa's Waltz" and "Aunt Jennifer's Tigers") often reduce it to... In short, that poetry can accomodate their most profound needs if they need those needs accomodated. But, oh no, now I might be doing nothing more than "Assuming a Defense Position." Well, so be it. The long and short of it is, re: your point (stutter, stutter)-- Some of my disagreements with Bernstein for instance are probably well-documented somewhere, but we do agree on some things (like, for instance, the need to argue about poetics and/or culture in a public context, and try to be entertaining about it in one way or another), and that argument sometimes becomes an "argument against argument" (or we'd probably all be dead by now)... and we may disagree over MUSIC, the meaning of music, the kind of music we like, or even play, but such disagreements, if respectful and playful, do not mean we couldn't sit on a panel together... Maybe Amy, we then disagree on the meaning (or feeling) of play and respect (now those two 1967 "Queen of Soul" hits a re going through my so-called head) and that's why I'm asking you now On Feb 17, 2008, at 12:55 PM, amy king wrote: > David and Chris, > > This kind of 'criticism' feels a bit opportunistic and > pointless ... first, who stopped their day short when Saddam > Hussein was, unbeknownst to the American public, hanged? I didn't > even hear about it until the nightly news. Should I have foreseen > the event and stopped teaching my Writing Poetry class earlier that > evening? > > > Second, the quote from the MLA event does not exclude the kind of > inquiry Bernstein outlines in "Pounding Fascism" -- he did not say, > "We will not teach students to consider the sociological and > historical effects on poetry or vice versa." What he did say is > something that is taught in most basic poetry courses, which is > that we will study poems as works of art ("art" certainly does not > exclude considerations of the influence of history and sociology), > and we will not teach students to 'extract sociological > information,' as in, we're not mining poems for facts > ("information") and throwing the stylized husks away, but rather > something more complex: we'll study how poems function, create and > sell what they seem to sell, how artifice illicits/solicits > emotional and intellectual response, etc. Nice mining for that > quote though ... > > What I find more compelling about this kind of reaching 'argument' > is its frequency and that it seems to appear whenever Bernstein is > mentioned as though he is some kind of pariah to be dealt blows on > appearance alone ... I'd really like to know what it is about > Language Poetry (I'm assuming this is an associative response) that > is so threatening that a) everything he has written is blanketly > stamped with disapproval and b) the mere mention of the man > conjures an aggressive affront worthy of a murderer. I should note > that those who react to the mere mention of his name usually tend > to be a rotating few. But the vehemence ... it astounds me. > Usually when I don't agree with someone's politics and/or poetry, I > say I don't like it, I might even go so far as to not like them and > dismiss the entire package -- but I don't assume the attack > position if they walk into the room, reach for the fact that he > sneezed and then read it as an insult to validate my > punch. My experiences with Bernstein (studied with him, but > moreover, read his books) have revealed a generous spirit -- he has > promoted poets of all kinds of flavors and styles, he allows for a > wide range of ideas and discourse in his classroom as an educator, > he has given poets this platform to voice their opinions, disagree, > including criticism of his own work -- but some of that criticism > has extended to him as a person, and that's the part I don't get. > He has maintained this forum for many years now where I likely > would have buckled. So really, I guess I'm just wondering about > the handful of poets here who go beyond criticizing his work to > transparently misconstrue and attack him in a way that really > speaks to the attackers' desires ... > > Amy > > _______ > > > > > > Blog > > > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > Faculty Page > > > > http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Chris Stroffolino > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:32:08 PM > Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot > Dear > David-- > > Who > wrote > this > article? > The > idea > that > 60 > American > poets > celebrated Dr. > Perloff becoming > the > new > MLA > President > (with > CB > as > their > spokesperson) > in > the > wake of > Hussein's > murder > is.....interesting. A > better > word > than > interesting? > Hilarious? > Scary? > Absurd? > Sneaping? Is > the > analogy > accurate? > In > a > way > no, > but > in > a > way > yes--- > > Against > the > backdrop > of > the > severed > Hussein > head, > there's > Haliburton/blackwater > regime and > Marjorie > Perloff. (as > if > the > old > MLA > "cultural > studies" > regimes > were > like > Hussein)... > > Of > course, > if > CB > is > to > be > believed, > I'm > just > writing > about > 29 December > 2006 as > a > "Work > of > Art," > here, > and > not > trying > to > "extract > sociological > or historical > information > from" > it-- > > Yet, > even > though > the > Dead > Saddam > image's > cultural > relevance > may > be tangential > to > the > main > point > of > this > article, and > to > the > politics > of > the > MLA > (and > was > used > by > Bush > et > al > to > 'wag the > dog' > for > Iraqis > and > Americans), if > we > consider > this > article > a > 'work > of > art,' > it > becomes > an > effective journalistic > device.... > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/ > newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:32:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: TV's The View on Ezra Pound Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable After the Grammy Awards, Natalie Cole commented on Amy Winehouse winning five Grammies: "I don't think she should have won. I think it sends a bad message to our young people who are trying to get into this business, the ones who are trying to do it right and really trying to keep themselves together. We hav= e to stop rewarding bad behavior." The following morning on the TV show The View, during its hot topics discussion segment, the Cole comments were brought up. Here's where co-host= s Joy Behar and Barbara Walters went: Joy Behar: Isn't it part of the presentation about Amy Winehouse? She's talented. Look, I brought up this morning [off-air] Ezra Pound, a very famous poet, a big antisemite. Now, are you going to read his poetry, if it's not antisemitic poetry? Barbara Walters: Now we're not saying you shouldn't read it. He shouldn't b= e applauded, and he was not applauded. JB: Who, Ezra Pound? BW: Not at the time, no he was not. JB: OK, you don't have to applaud =8A BW: We're not talking about her music, we're =8A JB: =8A his antisemitism. Nobody's applauding Amy Winehouse's drug abuse. Poetry, bad antisemite, separate things. BW: They're not quite the same, because he was condemned at the time and I don't want her condemned. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 00:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: andrews@FORDHAM.EDU Subject: Saturday March 1, Bruce Andrews & Abigail Child reading Comments: To: andrewsbruce@netscape.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 DQpIaSBhbGw7IGhvcGluZyB5b3UgY2FuIGZpbmQgcm9vbSBpbiB5b3VyIGJ1c3kgc2NoZWR1bGUg dG8gY29tZSBoZWFyIEFiaWdhaWwNCmFuZCBtZSByZWFkLg0KTmV3IHdvcmssIHN1cnByaXNlcywg Y29udml2aWFsIHBvZXRyeSBhdG1vLiAgSXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGEgZGVsaWdodC4NCg0KDQpCUlVD RSBBTkRSRVdTDQomIEFCSUdBSUwgQ0hJTEQNCg0KU2VndWUgUmVhZGluZyBTZXJpZXMNCkAgQm93 ZXJ5IFBvZXRyeSBDbHViDQoNClNhdHVyZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAxDQo0OjAwIHBtIOKAlCA1OjQwIHBt DQooJiB0aGUgcHJvY2VlZGluZ3MgYXJlIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHByZXR0eSBjbG9zZSB0byA0KQ0KDQoz MDggQm93ZXJ5LCBqdXN0IG5vcnRoIG9mIEhvdXN0b24NCg0KQnJ1Y2UgQW5kcmV3cyBpcyB0aGUg YXV0aG9yIG9mIG92ZXIgMiBkb3plbiBib29rcyBvZiBwb2V0cnksIHBlcmZvcm1hbmNlDQpzY29y ZXMgJiBlc3NheXMgb24gcG9ldGljczsgbW9zdCByZWNlbnRseSwgQ28gKGZpdmUgY29sbGFib3Jh dGlvbnMpOw0KRGVzaWduYXRlZCBIZWFydGJlYXQ7IFN3b29uIE5vaXIuICBMYXRlbHksIHdvcmtp bmcgb24gcHJvc2UgcG9lbXMNCihJbXBhdGllbnQpIGFuZCDigJh3aGl0ZSBkaWFsZWN0IHBvZXRy eeKAmSAoU3VjY2VzcyBXaXRob3V0IEdvYWxzKTsNCmNvbGxhYm9yYXRpbmcgb24gcGVyZm9ybWFu Y2VzIHdpdGggU2FsbHkgU2lsdmVycyBbdXBjb21pbmc6IFNhdHVyZGF5IE1hcmNoDQo4IGFmdGVy bm9vbiBhdCBQLlMuMSwgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgV2FjayEgc2hvd10uIE9ubGluZSBhdCB0aGUgRWxl Y3Ryb25pYw0KUG9ldHJ5IENlbnRlciwgUGVublNvdW5kLCBVYnUsIEVjbGlwc2UsIEFycmFzLCBX aWtpcGVkaWEsIEphY2tldCwgYW5kDQpZb3VUdWJlICh0aGUgZml2ZSBtaW51dGUgZHVzdC11cCB3 aXRoIEJpbGwgT+KAmVJlaWxseSkuDQoNCkFiaWdhaWwgQ2hpbGQgaXMgdGhlIGF1dGhvciBvZiBm aXZlIGJvb2tzIG9mIHBvZXRyeSwgYW1vbmcgdGhlbSBBIE1vdGl2ZQ0KZm9yIE1heWhlbSBhbmQg U2NhdHRlciBNYXRyaXggYXMgd2VsbCBhcyBhIGJvb2sgb2YgY3JpdGljYWwgd3JpdGluZywgVGhp cw0KaXMgQ2FsbGVkIE1vdmluZzogQSBDcml0aWNhbCBQb2V0aWNzIG9mIEZpbG0uICBTaGUgdGVh Y2hlcyBpbiBCb3N0b24sIGFuZA0KY2FsbHMgTllDIGhlciBob21lOyBoZXIgd2Vic2l0ZSBpcyB3 d3cuYWJpZ2FpbGNoaWxkLmNvbS4gIEEgdGVycmlmaWMgd3JpdGVyDQomIGZpbG1tYWtlci4= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 01:44:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Review of Books I Like (and think you might too) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Review of Books I Like (and think you might too) I'm remiss on reviewing for the past few months; I'm been jammed with any number of things from current research to the death of a loved cat, my own bad health, moving to West Virginia for close to a year. The books aren't in any particular order - which I prefer, hopefully giving an element of surprise. The Essential Blender, Guide to 3D Creation with the Open Source Suite Blender, edited by Roland Hess, blenderfoundation, 2008. The book comes with a cd-rom including Blender 2.44, otherwise downloadable of course. I've used Blender for years now; it's an amazing and lean 3D program that runs on pretty much any platform, and has become increasingly easy to use. When I began, there wasn't any menu bar; now there are complete menus, keyboard shortcuts and the like. The program does everything from inverse kinematics to gaming to video or still image output; you can even program Python with it. The book introduces the program, gets you started; it's the first in a forthcoming series presenting specific information in relation to gaming, design, etc. I strongly urge you to get it, download the program, and begin! While there is a tremendous among of online information at blender.org etc., I've always found a manual more conven- ient - it's faster, leaves the screen alone, makes good subway reading. Like all the Blender manuals, this one is excellent and abjures the over-the-top design of some of the others. By the way, Blender is great for design/art/multi-media courses; consider introducing your students to it. Windows Vista Annoyances, David A Karp, O'Reilly, 2008. I needed a high- powered desktop cheap, ended up with an HP quad w/sata, etc. But I didn't need Vista. I had no choice, given the particular configuration I wanted and could afford. The result is a terrific rendering machine with a horrid operating system; I won't go into the problems of user account control, disappearing files, insane terminal error messages, absence of such useful programs as telnet, and just plain craziness. I'm using the free version of TweakVI and a program called TweakUAC, CCleaner, CoreFTP Lite, AVG, and Desktop Maestro; I can't afford more. I looked at a LOT of Vista books, and found this the best for configuration and resource. It doesn't get rid of UAC, but it helps. Enough said. Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism, John Powers, Snow Lion, 1995. I have been working through Tibetan, Madhyamaka, and Pali Canon philosophies recently, in order to reconfigure distinctions among real, virtual, anal- og, digital, dream, hallucination, sign, anysign, and world and true world. I needed a guide into the complex culture of Tibetan Buddhism in particular, and can recommend this one in particular; it's extremely detailed, lends itself as an introduction to other texts, and cleared up some confusion I had in relation to doctrine, sect, and history. If you're going to read one book on the subject, I would think this would be it. (Another approach of course is to read one or another originary text in translation; see below.) Contemporary Poetics, edited by Louis Armand, Northwestern, 2007. I'm in this volume, so I'm prejudiced, but I see few anthologies giving much credence to codework of any sort. The book has materials from McKenzie Wark, Charles Bernstein, Marjorie Perloff, Bruce Andrews, Gregory Ulmer, Steve McCaffery, Armand, and others; there are references to Frege, Joyce, Acker, Cage, etc. and the essays are terrific. Do check this out! Living on Cybermind, Categories, Communication, and Control, Jonathan Paul Marshall, Peter Lang, 2007. Again I'm prejudiced, since Michael Current and I began Cybermind together near the beginning of 1994, and the book is a lengthy and detailed ethnography of the list. That said, I was pleased at its brilliant analysis of online communication in general; on a person- al note, it was oddly rewarding to find myself one of a number of subjects of ethnographic research. This is the most detailed work I've seen on online communication; it avoids the usual statistical approaches (although an appendix presents these) in favor of a phenomenological attitude that emphasizes terms like _asence_ ("The suspension of certainty between presence and absence which is experienced online. Asence is often resolved by acknowledgment.") and _aura_ ("The 'total communication' which occurs in the background or off the particular Internet social formation it surrounds."). I _use_ this book constantly in my work, and you might find it useful as well. Tibetan Religious Dances, Tibetan text and annotated translation of the 'chams yig, Rene de Nebesky-Wojkowitz, Paljor, (reprint) 2001. This book is a translation of a manual for sacred dances with an amazing root text running through it. The major part of it was written by the fifth Dalai Lama, 1617-1682 and was for use of a lamasary within the Potala precincts. I've used this book in thinking through ritual movement within the true world, Second Life for that matter; you might find it of great interest as well, particularly if you're concerned with movement, ritual, rite, and/or Tibetan Buddhism in general. The Story of Tibet, Conversations with the Dalai Lama, Thomas Laird, Grove, 2006, is one of the best introductions to Tibetan history and culture. Laird is not a 'believer,' however defined, and his conversations are dialogic; one gets an insight both into Tibet and the Dalai Lama. This book came highly recommended to me, and for good reason; it should be read by everyone interested in the philosophy and moment of Tibetan Buddhism, as well as recent Tibetan history. Like Powers' book above, this is extremely illuminating. A Theory of Semiotics, Umberto Eco, Indian, 1976. This might well be the best background or theory book on the phenomenology and semiotics of code - and of everything else - I've seen. I've always been surprised it hasn't been required reading in any theory 'canon'; perhaps its complexity is the reason. In any case, it's essential, fundamental. There are 110 pages on the theory of codes. I think the book a classic; if you find a copy, buy it. I think it goes well with Instruments of Communication, An Essay on Scientific Writing, by Patrick Meredith, Pergamon, 1966; I hadn't heard of this book until I found a copy in Pittsburgh. It too deserves to be better known; it works through forms of representation, issues of meaning, and the instrumentality of language. It reminds me of Kripke's Meaning and Necessity. I can't review it; unlike the Eco (which I studied intently), I've been reading into this, on and off, for a while. Do check it out if there's a university library around. Kalachakra Tantra, Rite of Initiation, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, translated, edited, and introduced by Jeffrey Hopkins, Wisdom, 1999. This book is great and at least for me is a core text itself for comprehending the true world, the inherency and emptiness of 'real' and 'virtue,' any- sign, the image/imaginary, and so forth. Hopkins' introduction is amazing and he 'walks' you through the Kalachakra mandala. The book requires careful attention, and it's problematic whether it should be 'public' at all, since the tantric rites are generally protected, somewhat secret, and are of course for initiates. So I'm reading this as an outsider who at best is a fellow traveler; as such, I more than recommend it. Apparitions of the Self, The Secret Autobiographies of a Tibetan Vision- ary, Janet Gyatso, Motilal Banarsidass, 2001. The visionary is Jigme Lingpa. The autobiographies are Dancing Moon in the Water and Dakki's grand Secret-Talk, and they took my breath away. The book has copious notes and commentary, the texts are classics in any number of genres, and if you can find this online or at your local Tibetan bookstore, pick it up. (There was one in Brooklyn, where I found this and many other texts; it's unfortunately closed.) The Emptiness of Emptiness, An Introduction to Early Indian Madhyamika, C.W. Huntington, Jr., and Geshe Namgyal Wangchen, Motilal Banarsidass, 2003, but first published by U. Hawaiian Press, 1989. This is a trans- lation of, and commentary on, Candrakirti's Madhyamakavatara, The Entry into the Middle Way, which itself is a commentary on Nagarjuna. Candra- kirti's text is referenced everywhere; I have two translations of it. I find the work tough going, but illuminating (in both versions), but I wouldn't read it without reading Nagarjuna first, of course. I want to speak briefly of my inclusion of so many Buddhist/philosophic texts. I find them immensely useful and interesting, in light of a general movement, online, towards virtual communalities, etc.; my work with emanents, avatars, SL, and so forth, is part of this. These texts tend to emphasize emptiness, imagining, virtual deity, co-dependent co-origina- tion, issues of purity, and other concepts or areas that move elsewhere than the subject/object or language/psychoanalytics orientation of most of the western (European, American, etc.) theory I've read. I found myself at an impasse. It's too easy on the other hand to move towards or through 'spirituality' with these texts - something I resist at any rate. Rightly or wrongly I find a philosophic Buddhism without issues of rebirth, and I find enough without these issues to give me hope in a different way of looking at the world, a different way of inhabiting it. My recent writing reflects this direction, murky as it (my recent writing) is. Now back to reviews. - Popular Physics, Peck's Ganot,, or Introductory Course of Natural Phil- osophy, for the use of Schools and Academies, edited from Ganot's Popular Physics, by William G. Peck, A.S. Barnes, 1873. revised from 1860. This is the book I've described with a section on 'electrical recreations'; it also formed a basis for rethinking the phenomenology of matter, both 'real' and virtual, in light of the sections on electrostatics and elec- trical fluid. The engravings, often of young men demonstrating sparks, etc., to young women, have been useful, and eventually led me to getting a copy of Ganot's Traite Elementaire de Physique, Paris, chez l'auteur, 1854, third edition. This is an advanced university text; Peck's text was modeled on Ganot's rewrite of the Traite for younger students. The young men and women, even electrical recreations, are gone, but the illustrat- ions are by far the best steel engravings I've seen, and amazingly useful - they provide an accounting of the state of knowledge, both magnetic and electrical, static and dynamic (not to mention the other subjects of physics), of the mid-19th century material world (which may or may not be the same as our own). A philosophy of matter is presented here, in short, and, again, it relates to online versions/visions of worlds, something I'm drawing out at the moment. A System of Natural Philosophy, J.L. Comstock, Pratt Woodford Farmer and Brace, 1854, fifth stereotype revision, and the same, Robinson and Pratt, 1841, 'Stereotyped from the fifty-third edition,' but most likely the first revised edition (if that). These, again, are elementary physics texts for use in the United States; they are equally fascinating in their presentation of matter, and odds and ends (which is where such things as Sharp's Rifle and House's Printing Telegraph are found). The descriptions of matter, electrical fluid, and the like, augment Peck and Ganot; I've been working with all four volumes. If you're interested in the social phenomena of electrostatics, I'd recommend Peck; if you're interested in the technical details, go back to Ganot. But all of them differ in inter- esting ways - in the description of electrical machines, for example. Several other older texts: Radio Phone Receiving, A Practical Book for Everybody, by various, van Nostrand, 1923. An excellent guide to the state of early radio on the verge of widespread broadcasting. Sections on crystal radio, vacuum tube, commercial broadcasting, etc. The Telegraph Instructor, G.M. Dodge, Valparaiso, Indiana, 1908, fourth edition. From the only telegraph operator's school in the US at the time. This book has proved one of the most useful on codes and early communica- tions technology; while the telegraph originated decades earlier, its increasing complexity led to the development of more codes and more com- plex codes, which I've described elsewhere. They were needed for trains, for ships, for crossings of all sorts, for press corps, for private and public communications, and so forth; they were required to be succinct, and almost without redundancy, since cable space/time was money. They were also required to be checked for accuracy. If a cable went down, either shorting or left open, the location of the break had to be determined as fast as possible. All of this required an enormous amount of knowledge, and all of this is described in Dodge's textbook. Hawkins Electrical Guide, various editions, Hawkins and Staff, Audel, 1914-1917, etc. I use these constantly; the volumes I have (which still can be found, relatively inexpensive) cover such things as electric trains, trolleys, and cars; crystal radio receivers and transmitters; therapeutic and medical uses of electricity and x-rays; electrical meas- urement; motion picture camera and projector technology; and telegraphy (codes, printouts, sounders, etc.). You can build from these books; you can also get an understanding how, for example, electrostatics ended up in the form of vaginal and rectal electrodes (among other things). I do want to praise the Audel's series/handbooks in general; they cover everything from rouge to automobiles, and they're authoritative. Karl Kraus, Apocalyptic Satirist, Culture and Catastrophe in Habsburg Vienna, Edward Timms, Yale, 1986. Kraus is one of my favorite writers, in spite of his problematic, feminism/anti-feminism, occasional conservatism, etc. His writing and condemnations of war, anti-feminism, misuse of lang- uage and psychoanalysis, is fierce. His Jewishness is odd; he turned towards and then away from, Catholicism. Timms goes as far as possible into understanding him. I found a first edition of Die letzten Tagen der Menschheit (Last Days of Mankind) and was thrilled; I'm amazed he wasn't hung for it. One of his books, Spruche und Widerspruche, has been trans- lated by Jonathan McVity as Dicta and Contradicta in a very neat volume published by Illinois, 2001; I most highly recommend this (I find the German so compressed, I can't read it without the translation) which resonates with his more-than-aphoristic style. The Concealed Essence of the Hevajra Tantra, with the commentary Yogarat- namala, G.W. Farrow and I. Menon, Motilal Banarsidass, 2001. This is one of the main non-dual Yogini tantras, and I love it; in particular, there is a lot on secret sign language, on the fire sacrifice, on purification, on nonexistence, and so forth. Translated from Sanskrit and Tibetan. For a Chinese version, somewhat different but again quite beautiful, there is The Chinese Hevajratantra, Ch. Willemen, Motilal Banarsidass, 2004. Counterexamples in Topology, Lynn Arthur Steen and J. Arthur Seebach, Jr, Dover, 1995, from the 1978 edition. The book gives around 150 counter- examples of topological spaces, which are quite useful in thinking through analog/digital (or discrete) issues and their meeting at the limits. It's also fun to read, imagining some of the oddest mathematical models around. The Archaeology of Knowledge & The Discourse on Language, Michel Foucault, Pantheon, 1971. This slippery text, which you must know better than I do, deserves a closer look; it resonates, I think, with Buddhist epistemology in its problematizing of language and statement, its diffusion, and at times the language reminds me of the Flower Ornament Sutra. Ok, far- fetched, and I'm deeply Foucault-ignorant, but it seems that the work is increasingly useful in considering outdated real/virtual distinctions. bash Cookbook, Carl Albing, JP Vossen, and Cameron Newham, O'Reilly, 2007. I asked O'Reilly to send me this as a review copy; I love the bash shell, and this book presents the world of it. There are chapters on scripting, shell tools, getting started, novice 'goofs'; there are numerous reference lists as well. As I've said before, the O'Reilly books have been a guide for me, from Linux 2.0 stuff on. They're intelligent, amazingly well- written, authoritative, and backed up online. There's no wasted space and they're well-printed, rarely going out of date - I'm using ones that are twenty years old. I particularly like the degree of detail which allows someone, from a novice to a programmer, to quickly find the tools she needs. I also like the fact they're _books_; for a while I subscribed to Safari (when I could afford it!), but I ended up carrying the books around instead - they make good reading away from the computer as well. I highly recommend this book to anyone working in Unix/Linux; you won't regret it, and you'll use it often. Overview of Buddhist Tantra, General Presentation of the Classes of Tan- tra, Captivating the Minds of the Fortunate Ones, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, translation by Martin J. Boord and Losang Norbu Tsonawa, Library of Tibetan Works and Archives, 1996. This text is from the 15th-16th century; I read it in conjunction with F.D. Lessin, Alex Wayman, Introduction to the Buddhist Tantric Systems, Mkhas-grub-rje (1385-1438), Samuel Weiser, 1980. I prefer the latter which is elegant and beautiful to read. (I know I'm using 'beautiful' as well as 'useful' a lot, and this text is of course both.) The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle way, Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakar- ika, translation and commentary by Jay L. Garfield, Oxford, 1995. This sets out the Middle Way, and is _the_ philosophical text, I think, under- lying almost all the others I describe here. A great deal of Nagarjuna's work - including works on logic - has been translated, and is well worth reading. I'm currently stumbling through Nagarjuna's Refutation of Logic (Nyaya), Vaidalyaprakarana, translated from the Tibetan by Fernando Tola and Carmen Dragonetti. The paradoxes _matter._ Emptiness resonates with true world, at least in my mind. What more can I say? Cabaret Performance, Sketches, Songs, Monologues, Memoirs, Volume II: Europe 1920-1940, selected and translated, with commentary by Laurence Senelick, Johns Hopkins, 1993. This book is important to me, as are any number of others dealing with Weimar (etc.) cabaret; I'm influenced by such figures as Valeska Gert and Anita Berber. (This comes out clearly in the SL performances.) Cabaret Performance presents material from them and a number of other people; there's been a _lot_ of material on cabaret from this period, which was way ahead of its time. I've reviewed The Seven Addictions and Five Professions of Anita Berber before; you can begin there, or online with google, etc.; in any case the material in Senelick's book ranges over far wider territory and is an absolute revelation. Prehistoric Digital Poetry, An Archaeology of Forms, 1959-1995, C.T. Funkhouser, Alabama, 2007. Disclaimer: my work is in it. Claimer: This is by far the most generous text I've seen on the origins and meanderings of digital literary-plus forms; I think it's fundamental, if anything is. Funkhouser ranges over a vast territory, from codeworks through concrete poetry, from Mac Low to hypercard. This should be essential reading in any experimental/new media/electronic literature/writing class; it's also fun! The Lankavatara Sutra, A Mahayana Text, Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki, Motilal Banardsidass, 1999, from the London 1932 edition; and Studies in the Lankavatara Sutra, D.T. Suzuki, Mushiram Manoharlal, 1998, from the original 1930 edition. Everyone knows D.T. Suzuki; this is clearly his masterwork - his translation of the sutra, and subsequent analysis. I find his emphasis on Zen somewhat biased (as, elsewhere, his emphasis on Bushido and Rinzai Zen), but he's done an invaluable service in this translation - and better yet, it's now available, along with commentary, in relatively inexpensive Indian editions. The sutra is wonderful, if for no other reason than the amazing list of questions and answers propounded. This is an important sutra, and Suzuki discusses the theory of mind, externals, and egolessness inherent in it. Not to be missed I think. Introduction to the Middle Way, Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara with Commentary By Jamgon Mipham, translated by the Padmakara Translation Group, Shambhala, 2002. This should be read in conjunction with the other translation listed above; this is by far the most poetic. The text is highly compressed in the original, and both commentaries help elucidating Chandrakirti's meaning. Tantra in Practice, edited by David Gordon White, Motilal Banarsidass, 2001. This is a great collection of Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, and Islamic texts; it's incredibly wide-ranging and includes both contemporary commentary and translations. One of the best detailed collections of tantric rites. Beautiful Code, Leading Programmers Explain How They Think, edited by Andy Oram and Greg Wilson, O'Reilly, 2007. All I can say is this is currently my favorite computer book; I'm learning more about programming practices than I have from years of kludging! This goes well with another currently my favorite computer text, Paul A. Fishwick's Aesthetic Computing, MIT, 2006. Both of these chart out territories of deep code and visualization - from the visualizing of programming itself, to interfacing and image pro- duction. I think these are the two books to get, in terms of coding and new media; I frankly prefer them to any of the straightforward anthologies out there. Feynman, Lectures on Computation, edited by Tony Hey and Robin W. Allen, Perseus, 1996, reprinted with corrections, 1999. This is an interesting guide to coding, communication, computation and thermodynamics of com- putation, quantum computers, etc. There's a good section on the physical aspects of computation. If you like Feynman or are interested in a very readable exposition of difficult material, you'll like this, in spite of the fact some of it is out of date (but not the basic material). Maps of the Profound, Jam-yang-shay-ba's Great Exposition of Buddhist and Non-Buddhist Views on the Nature of Reality, Jeffrey Hopkins, Snow Lion, 2003. The original dates from 1689. This version contains both the root text, which is terse and difficult, and commentaries, which are terse and difficult. This enormous work is a presentation of tenets text, used to systematize a number of schools and viewpoints. I've not read it straight through, but it is terrific to dip into, follow the strands of philosophy and disputation. Among other things, it's indicative of the depth of the Tibetan/Buddhist philosophical tradition, and what it has to offer to the rest of us, mired, I believe, in issues of subject/abject/object and all their inconsistencies. Chasing Clouds, A decade of Studies, Emily Cheng, Timezone 8, 2008. I've followed Emily's work for years (she was also cameraperson on the Blue Tape with Kathy Acker), and have admired her paintings, drawings, and graphics and their relationships to history, aesthetics, and issues of Buddhism/Taoism, and multiculturalism in general. This book focuses on her studies, which are small, intimate, often intricate, and remind me of Taoist talismans; they're also wonderfully beautiful and meditative. It's not often a collection of reproductions functions on its own as a book to be cherished, but this one does! The reproductions are beautiful as well. Second Life, a Guide to Your Virtual World, Brian A. White, Que, 2007 - the most useful book I've seen on Second Life, with the least amount of fluff; it even covers the use of bvh files and Poser. This is the one to get. It takes you through particles, economics, scripting behavior, model- ing, etc. Highly recommended. The Embodied Mind, Cognitive Science and Human Experience, Francisco J. Varela, Evan Thompson, and Eleanor Rosch, MIT, 1991. I hadn't seen this before; Sandy Baldwin pointed it out to me. It discusses mind and self with an approach based both on Madhyamika philosophy and cog sci and should be read by anyone interested in the topic. Again, highly recommended; I'd been looking for this kind of approach for a long time. The last sentence is prescient: "At the very least, the journey of Buddhism to the west provides some of the resources we need to pursue consistently our own cultural and scientific premises to the point where we no longer need and desire foundations and so can take up the further tasks of building and dwelling in worlds without ground." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 00:52:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri- In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Who reads the Cantos, symptomatically even, for their criticisms of > "finance capital"? Tellingly, not even Fredric Jameson, it would seem. > Maybe it's time, as it would let the history into a form that does its > utmost to include it, a form that has barely begun to be closely read. Go for it Louis! (though I'd rather hear a Cabrian critique of finance capital than a critique of finance capital mediated by the terms of a long poem written before Reaganomics fer instance... (even if losing one's center (fighting the world) is truly 'news that stays news', etc....) C On Feb 17, 2008, at 7:28 PM, Louis Cabri wrote: > Like Chris suggests, "anti-democratic capitalism" can be taken in many > directions. I resort to a Marxian view that criticizing finance > capitalism > is what the reviewer means, when he suggests Pound's Cantos criticize > "anti-democratic capitalism." That's to read the Cantos only for their > detective plot ("fifteen years on the case!" etc). And "finance > capital" > isn't Pound's theoretical generality (no more than is "modernism"). > Anyway, so this reviewer, I'm suggesting, says that what is > "misunderstood" is that that is Pound's real subject, namely finance > capitalism. > > The problem with such a generous New Leftish reading is that the > Cantos > don't merely point to the material effects of finance capital like > some > Agassiz towering over a fish. The text also and very amply offers, in > almost all its nooks and crannies, theories about systemic "root" > causes > of, and solutions to, what a Marxist would call finance capitalism. > These > purported causes and solutions are offensive, stupid, terrifying, > fascistic. > > Who reads the Cantos, symptomatically even, for their criticisms of > "finance capital"? Tellingly, not even Fredric Jameson, it would seem. > Maybe it's time, as it would let the history into a form that does its > utmost to include it, a form that has barely begun to be closely read. > > Best, Louis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:18:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: assuming the defense position? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Chris, Thanks very much for your note and explanation. Now it's my turn to apologize -- I didn't have you in mind when I wrote the last paragraph about the 'rotating few' -- their flame messages can be found throughout the archives here (when the list wasn't moderated), and I've even encountered some in person. They are, if anything, consistent and persistent in getting their sentiments across ... Your email struck me as being in the same camp but not your ongoing contributions to the list. I apologize again, esp as it seems I mis-read your intent. Thanks again, Amy _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog Faculty Page http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:24:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: assuming the defense position? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been sitting back casually reading some of the polemic that this topic has generated. There was a recent collection of Al Purdy's poetry issued. The editor was Rob Budde. In his introduction, Rob explained why some poems were not selected for inclusion. One of the ones not selected was 'Caribou Horses', the title poem for the collection which won Purdy the Governor General's award in 1964, I believe. Budde's position was that this poem, the setting of which was Thousand Mile House in the Rockies of Alberta, referred to female Indians as 'squaws' and various Indian groups - the Blackfoot, Sioux, etc. - as if they were homogeneous. If Budde had looked into Purdy's life a little more, he would have discovered that Purdy was involved in Indian rights and anti-discrimination. The depiction Purdy created in his poem was necessary in order to instil the proper atmosphere and was using the conventions of the time. There was no offense intended. Nor, given Purdy's background, could there have been. Certainly, Pound's situation is not the same. Not even close. Yes, he was anti-Semitic. Yes, he was a fascist. But, if we examine his times, this was probably the prevalent - or, at least, one of the prevalent - views. And yes, this would have colored his poetry to a certain extent. But does this mean, viewing Pound - and Eliot who held the same views - in hindsight, that we must discard the poetry? My feeling is that we can regret that these attitudes were once part of our culture and do our best to ensure they are not part of our current cultural values, but that the poetry is still great poetry. There are probably a number of current cultural values in play which, when viewed in the hindsight of a hundred years (provided the human race lasts that long), are going to suffer the same fate. I think of the great feminist literature and poetry which has been written and continues to be written. It may, to a certain extent, be considered necessary today and in earlier days as a means of liberating women but it does contain a great deal of androgyny. This, at some point, will have to be dealt with - and, hopefully, will not be dealt with by being discarded which would be a disservice to feminist poets. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Stroffolino Sent: February 17, 2008 10:00 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: assuming the defense position? Dear Amy--- I'll respond to the "opportunistic and pointless" charge... In my response to David, I was primarily curious in the language of that piece of journalism he was quoting. I hadn't really been following this thread that deeply, so forgive me if I missed some history, but I was mildly (but genuinely) curious (still am) who wrote the piece, as I couldn't tell in David's post when the MLA journalist's writing stopped and David's own commentary started. I thought asking David to talk more about it would be an interesting entry into the conversation about Pound and such (since I'm less interested in Pound than in the issues that often come up when his name is evoked). Regardless of who wrote that piece (the one that begins with the Hussein reference), I was curious about what the writers' attitude/ stance/agenda, what-have-you- might be, because it's interesting for me to hear what others (alive) think, and put-forth, when they use words like 'cultural studies' and 'poetics'-- hotly contested words and phrases in certain circles that I sometimes have to put an appearance in... Anyway, even if I may end up largely disagreeing with the author of that piece, I also have to admire the intelligence that made the 'inappropriate' leap from Hussein to whomever was head of the MLA before Perloff- So I tried in that post to parse out what he was saying. I guess I don't see what is 'opportunistic' or 'pointless' about that.... Yeah, maybe because my piece tried to be somewhat playful (as I was thinking about the two allegedly opposing views---"cultural studies" and "poetics"--I felt I had to try to balance the "deadly serious" tone with a playful one to find that balance), my tone could be read as flippant. But I'm curious about how (or why) what I wrote can be taken as "assuming an attack position".... I distrust the naturalization of many aspects Pound's poetics (I'm not even talking about the fascism issue here, though that may play a part) in contemporary American poetry, and I find myself confronting it, almost daily, in my work as a teacher, poet, and other writing (not so much in my music, coz the Pound-assumptions aren't so much an issue there). Sure, there will be times I catch my self spouting a Poundian-ism here and there, or find points of agreement with Vendler, Perloff, Bernsteiin, and others, but I do agree with those who argue that contemporary poetry is still understood too narrowly (I'm trying to avoid the word 'boring') and want to encourage students (and others who may be skeptical toward "poetry'') to realize that "poetry" can have a wider range than many spokespeople for it acknowledge or admit (whether 'mainstream' or whatever...), to say nothing of what others who never really read much poetry (besides say "My Papa's Waltz" and "Aunt Jennifer's Tigers") often reduce it to... In short, that poetry can accomodate their most profound needs if they need those needs accomodated. But, oh no, now I might be doing nothing more than "Assuming a Defense Position." Well, so be it. The long and short of it is, re: your point (stutter, stutter)-- Some of my disagreements with Bernstein for instance are probably well-documented somewhere, but we do agree on some things (like, for instance, the need to argue about poetics and/or culture in a public context, and try to be entertaining about it in one way or another), and that argument sometimes becomes an "argument against argument" (or we'd probably all be dead by now)... and we may disagree over MUSIC, the meaning of music, the kind of music we like, or even play, but such disagreements, if respectful and playful, do not mean we couldn't sit on a panel together... Maybe Amy, we then disagree on the meaning (or feeling) of play and respect (now those two 1967 "Queen of Soul" hits a re going through my so-called head) and that's why I'm asking you now On Feb 17, 2008, at 12:55 PM, amy king wrote: > David and Chris, > > This kind of 'criticism' feels a bit opportunistic and > pointless ... first, who stopped their day short when Saddam > Hussein was, unbeknownst to the American public, hanged? I didn't > even hear about it until the nightly news. Should I have foreseen > the event and stopped teaching my Writing Poetry class earlier that > evening? > > > Second, the quote from the MLA event does not exclude the kind of > inquiry Bernstein outlines in "Pounding Fascism" -- he did not say, > "We will not teach students to consider the sociological and > historical effects on poetry or vice versa." What he did say is > something that is taught in most basic poetry courses, which is > that we will study poems as works of art ("art" certainly does not > exclude considerations of the influence of history and sociology), > and we will not teach students to 'extract sociological > information,' as in, we're not mining poems for facts > ("information") and throwing the stylized husks away, but rather > something more complex: we'll study how poems function, create and > sell what they seem to sell, how artifice illicits/solicits > emotional and intellectual response, etc. Nice mining for that > quote though ... > > What I find more compelling about this kind of reaching 'argument' > is its frequency and that it seems to appear whenever Bernstein is > mentioned as though he is some kind of pariah to be dealt blows on > appearance alone ... I'd really like to know what it is about > Language Poetry (I'm assuming this is an associative response) that > is so threatening that a) everything he has written is blanketly > stamped with disapproval and b) the mere mention of the man > conjures an aggressive affront worthy of a murderer. I should note > that those who react to the mere mention of his name usually tend > to be a rotating few. But the vehemence ... it astounds me. > Usually when I don't agree with someone's politics and/or poetry, I > say I don't like it, I might even go so far as to not like them and > dismiss the entire package -- but I don't assume the attack > position if they walk into the room, reach for the fact that he > sneezed and then read it as an insult to validate my > punch. My experiences with Bernstein (studied with him, but > moreover, read his books) have revealed a generous spirit -- he has > promoted poets of all kinds of flavors and styles, he allows for a > wide range of ideas and discourse in his classroom as an educator, > he has given poets this platform to voice their opinions, disagree, > including criticism of his own work -- but some of that criticism > has extended to him as a person, and that's the part I don't get. > He has maintained this forum for many years now where I likely > would have buckled. So really, I guess I'm just wondering about > the handful of poets here who go beyond criticizing his work to > transparently misconstrue and attack him in a way that really > speaks to the attackers' desires ... > > Amy > > _______ > > > > > > Blog > > > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > Faculty Page > > > > http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Chris Stroffolino > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:32:08 PM > Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot > Dear > David-- > > Who > wrote > this > article? > The > idea > that > 60 > American > poets > celebrated Dr. > Perloff becoming > the > new > MLA > President > (with > CB > as > their > spokesperson) > in > the > wake of > Hussein's > murder > is.....interesting. A > better > word > than > interesting? > Hilarious? > Scary? > Absurd? > Sneaping? Is > the > analogy > accurate? > In > a > way > no, > but > in > a > way > yes--- > > Against > the > backdrop > of > the > severed > Hussein > head, > there's > Haliburton/blackwater > regime and > Marjorie > Perloff. (as > if > the > old > MLA > "cultural > studies" > regimes > were > like > Hussein)... > > Of > course, > if > CB > is > to > be > believed, > I'm > just > writing > about > 29 December > 2006 as > a > "Work > of > Art," > here, > and > not > trying > to > "extract > sociological > or historical > information > from" > it-- > > Yet, > even > though > the > Dead > Saddam > image's > cultural > relevance > may > be tangential > to > the > main > point > of > this > article, and > to > the > politics > of > the > MLA > (and > was > used > by > Bush > et > al > to > 'wag the > dog' > for > Iraqis > and > Americans), if > we > consider > this > article > a > 'work > of > art,' > it > becomes > an > effective journalistic > device.... > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/ > newsearch/category.php?category=shopping No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1283 - Release Date: 16/02/2008 2:16 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 18/02/2008 5:50 AM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:48:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: For those in and near Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Reconstruction Room presents "Out of the Hospital," a reading of poems written by children and young adults during one-on-one workshops conducted at Children's Memorial Hospital and Rush University Hospital. The reading will include recordings of these young poets reading their own work; poetry "videos"; poems set to music; and readings of the children's poems by John Tipton, Lara Golan, Dan Godston and Eric Elshtain. Wednesday 2/20, 8pm, Black Rock Bar at Damen and Addison. The reading is co-sponsored by Snow City Arts Foundation, a non-profit foundation that places area artists into artist-in-resident positions in three Chicago hospitals. http://www.snowcityarts.com Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:20:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: benmazer@AOL.COM Subject: Landis Everson Memorial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Landis Everson Memorial Friday, February 22,?10:00 pm Please join us as we pay tribute to the life and poetry of Landis Everson. Readers will include Bill Berkson, Bill Corbett, John Hennessy, Matthew Henriksen, Katia Kapovich, Mark Lamoureux, Ben Mazer, Stephen Sturgeon, Jason Zuzga The Poetry Project St Mark's Church in the Bowery 131 E 10th St New York, New York 10003 ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 08:55:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Pound - Poetics and Politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kenneth, You missed an opportunity there. Instead of choosing to read this student's query as a sign of bad faith and a fear in the professorial sin of "dismissing" a writer (the horror), perhaps a more helpful reply might have been: "Yes, Susan, many modernists were quite misogynistic, that's true. As well as classist and racist. And in fact a great deal of the poetry that was suppressed during that time was suppressed precisely because it contained progressive content. Modernism was a right-leaning literary ideology. In fact, I could suggest, Susan, two great books by Cary Nelson on the topic. One is /Repression and Recovery: Modern American Poetry and the Politics of Cultural Memory/ and the other is /Revolutionary Memory: Recovering the Poetry of the American Left/. I'd be happy to hear what you think about these books." It would be better to praise this student's desire to read politically, and to in fact inform her/him that it's utopian and impossible not to. But it seems you instead chose to read this student's reasonable and in many ways quite correct query as suspicious. I find myself feeling a little sorry for that student. Best, Gabriel -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ Kenneth Sherwood wrote: "Last week, an undergraduate exchange student asked me "Isn't it true that the modernists were against women?" What I hear behind this question as behind some of the comments and observations to the list of late is a desire to dismiss a writer on political grounds. The hurling of labels, whether political/ideological or simply scatalogical is never a very promising beginning to a dialogue, presuming that is one wants to enter a conversation rather than merely blow off steam. Attempting to celebrate the poetry by severing it from the politics or simply dismissing the poetry on account of the politics ... two sides of the save evasive coin. Why not reflect on the complex negotiations with Pound in some of his better readers? Oppen at the Mediterranean shore listening to EP discuss the "boss," Zukofsky reconciling his personal friendship. I'm reminded of this Bernstein follow-up to the poetics list of many years ago: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/essays/poundbern.html Rachel DuPlessis cultural poetics essays (Propounding Modernist Maleness, * Modernism/Modernity* 9.3 (2002) 389-405) model, on a different ideological vector, ways of reading in and through the politics. How much of the ideological "antipathy" towards Pound is based on a reading of the politics of and within the poetry? How much reflects the received wisdom about his radio broadcasts? Let's not reduce the list to the equivalent of a CNN Presidential Candidate likability poll. Whether one would rather have a beer with Ezra Pound or Mina Loy is really not the question. Or, I should say, is not a question I find very promising. Who, besides Ben Friedlander, has actually listened to the polemical broadcasts?" __________________________________ Kenneth Sherwood, PhD Associate Professor of English Graduate Program in Literature and Criticism 110 Leonard Hall Indiana University of Pennsylvania Indiana, PA 15705 www.sherwoodweb.org -- -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:58:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrea Selch Subject: No Press Distribution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Christophe Casamassima's idea for a "No Press Distribution" site is fabulous. An apt and democratic use of the medium and so charitable of CC. I only hope he won't be overwhelmed, ultimately, by willingness to set the site up, arrange for hosting, and update it frequently without any remuneration. Would it be worthwhile to charge a nominal fee to be listed, say, $25? That's still much cheaper than SPD! --Andrea Selch, Carolina Wren Press www.carolinawrenpress.org www.andreaselch.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:19:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Red Rover Series / Experiment #18 In-Reply-To: <225327.41220.qm@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline some sense of what i will be doing in new work now under way can be gauged from John Sparrow's blog which includes a report on an event at The Firehouse in Providence last Tuesday (includes pertinent pics): http://itchaway.net/blog/ looking forwards cris On Feb 16, 2008 3:03 PM, Jennifer Karmin wrote: > Red Rover Series > {readings that play with reading} > > Experiment #18: > Time-Based Poetics > > 7pm Sunday, February 24th > Featuring: > David Buuck > cris cheek > > A poetics off the page > that takes time as its medium > guest curated by > Jennifer Scappettone > > at the SpareRoom > 4100 W. Grand Ave -- Chicago, IL > close to Grand & Pulaski > in the American Stencil Company building > 2nd floor, suite 210-212 > http://www.spareroomchicago.org > > BYOB > suggested donation $3 > doors lock at 7:30pm > wheelchair accessible with assistance > > DAVID BUUCK lives in Oakland and teaches at the San > Francisco Art Institute. He is the co-founder of > Tripwire, a poetics journal, and BARGE, the Bay Area > Research Group in Enviro-aesthetics, and a > Contributing Editor at Artweek. His poetry, prose, > essays & criticism have been published in a variety of > contexts; recent booklets include Ruts, Runts, Between > Above & Below, and Paranoia Agent. In the last year he > has performed in San Francisco, Santa Cruz, Los > Angeles, Boston, and New York. > > CRIS CHEEK is a poet, book maker, sound artist, > mixed-media practitioner and interdisciplinary > performer, whose texts have been commissioned and > shown locally and trans-locally, often in multiple > versions using diverse media for their production and > circulation. His most recent work is a full body of > collaborations with Kirsten Lavers as TNWK, > http://www.tnwk.net. His most recent publication is > titled the church, the school, the beer (Critical > Documents, 2007). > > Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer > Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is > designed as a reading experiment with participation by > local, national, and international writers, artists, > and performers. > > Email ideas for reading experiments > to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. > The schedule for upcoming events is listed at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. > > COMING UP: > *Experiment #19: > March 2 - Kate Greenstreet & Jen Tynes > > *Experiment #20: > April 19 - Barrett Gordon, Matthew Klane, David > Pavelich, Laura Sims, Kevin Thurston > > *Experiment #21: > May 15 - Miranda Mellis & Sarah Rosenthal > > STARTING April 19 events will be held > at a new surprise location TBA! > more info soon > > SUMMER/FALL 2008: > Judith Goldman & Lily Robert-Foley > Ira S. Murfin & Marisa Plumb > Authors from the Encyclopedia Project, vol. 2 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:22:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Little Red Leaves Subject: Little Red Leaves Issue 2 NOW LIVE In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Little Red Leaves is pleased to announced the launch of its second issue! Check it out here: http://littleredleaves.com/LRL2/LRL2.html. Issue 2 includes a selection of excerpts from the second Dos Press chapbook as well as --Michelle Detorie performing w/Austin percussionist Chris Cogburn in video from the launch reading --Johannes G=F6ransson reading from his translations of Aase Berg, Henry Parland, & Ann J=E4derlund --Michael Cross reading from his own work and from Brady & Halpern's _Snow Sensitive Skin_. The issue also features new work from Cristiana Baik Kristy Bowen Joel Chace Juliet Cook Elizabeth Cross Michael Cross Betsy Fagin Raymond Farr Anna Fulford Crane Giamo Carolyn Guinzio Anne Heide Juliana Leslie Ixta Menchaca Bonnie Jean Michalski Sheila E. Murphy T.A. Noonan Dawn Pendergast Kyle Schlesinger Sasha Steensen Michelle Taransky Eric Unger Joshua Ware Snezana Zabic -- www.littleredleaves.com www.littleredleavesjournal.blogspot.com --=20 www.littleredleaves.com www.littleredleavesjournal.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:22:08 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: NO PRESS DISTRIBUTION / SelfPublishing UPDATE Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, everyone. I received great input this weekend about how to bring this project to frui= tion, and many people have expressed interest in submitting works for revie= w. I recently created a new eMail address for this project: nopressdistributio= n@gmail.com If anyone has any further inquiries please write me at this address. My gra= ffiti.net account is too busy... Cheers, everyone, and thanks for making this a potentially successful ventu= re... Christophe =3D Baja Vacations - Los Cabos, Mexico Las Ma=C3=B1anitas offers luxurious beachfront rentals. Choose from 1, 2, 3= bedroom condos and penthouses. Call us toll free or visit us for a virtual= view and more information. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D9fb625a2c74ab9f0daf4d= 448abadaea2 --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:25:24 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Re: No Press Distribution Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Great ideas, Andrea, and thanks for your energy! I'll set up the website via my towson.edu account, which is free. I have 1 = GB of space, and can update it as I need it. For now cash is not a factor, = but I will take donations if there's need to set up something more complica= ted, or if some people help out with layout and content management. We'll s= ee. For now, just send me books or whatever and I'll create a space for readers= and writers to link up with an option to review on-line.=20 Christophe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrea Selch" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: No Press Distribution > Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:58:17 -0500 >=20 >=20 > I think Christophe Casamassima's idea for a "No Press Distribution" site = is > fabulous. An apt and democratic use of the medium and so charitable of CC= . I > only hope he won't be overwhelmed, ultimately, by willingness to set the > site up, arrange for hosting, and update it frequently without any > remuneration. Would it be worthwhile to charge a nominal fee to be listed, > say, $25? That's still much cheaper than SPD! > --Andrea Selch, Carolina Wren Press www.carolinawrenpress.org > www.andreaselch.com > =3D Manufacturer Cardboard Boxes Million box inventory corrugated boxes, cartons, mailers, moving and bin bo= xes, tubes, partitions, shipping supplies and custom boxes. Same day shippi= ng. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=3D4ea4240aaf565158ce432= 65154bf69f7 --=20 Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:33:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: PLAN B--Dorantes, Seldess, Solis, Hofer, Hejinian, Lujan, Moriarty, Spahr, et al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FRUGAL books presents: PLAN B a binational limited-edition poetry journal. one copy for each participant and 25 copies for sale to the public. works by the same group of writers each month for one year: see below for list of participating writers. * 12 issues: $120 6 issues: $90 3 issues: $50 individual issues: $20 * prices include delivery within mexico and the u.s. * if you are interested, please contact: dolores dorantes: doloresdorantes@yahoo.com.mx or jen hofer: jenhofer@gmail.com > > librería FRUGAL presenta: > > PLAN B > (revista binacional de poesía en edición limitada. > un ejemplar para cada colaborador y 25 ejemplares para venta al público) > los mismos autores mensualmente durante un año: > lyn hejinian > román luján > brian whitener > harold abramowitz > karen plata > inti garcía > hugo garcía manríquez > alejandro tarrab > jesse seldess > jorge solís > patrick durgin > bhanu kapil > jen hofer > jocelyn saidenberg > myriam moscona > guy bennett > epigmenio león > arturo ramírez-lara > juliana spahr > jorge esquinca > alan mills > rodrigo flores > sawako nakayasu > dolores dorantes > luis felipe fabre > paul vangelisti > josé pérez-espino > mónica nepote > laura moriarty > brent cunningham > jane sprague > stephanie young > 12 ejemplares: 1,200.00 m.n. o 120 dlls > 6 ejemplares: 900.00 m.n. o 90.00 dlls > 3 ejemplares: 500.00 m.n. o 50.00 dlls > ejemplar individual: 200.00 m.n. o 20.00 dlls > > incluye entrega oportuna a domicilio, en México o los Yunaites > ¿te interesa? Comunícate con Dolores Dorantes a: > doloresdorantes@yahoo.com.mx > contamos con facturación para universidades ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:26:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stuart Ross Subject: Re: Review of Books I Like (and think you might too) In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for this fascinating list, Alan. On 2/18/08 1:44 AM, "Alan Sondheim" wrote: > Review of Books I Like (and think you might too) > > [SNIP] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Third Thursday Poetry Night, Albany, NY - Feb. 21 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed the Poetry Motel Foundation presents Third Thursday Poetry Night at the Social Justice Center 33 Central Ave., Albany, NY Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:00 sign up; 7:30 start Featured Poet: Michael Bostick with open mic for poets before & after the feature. $3.00 donation -- suggested, more if you got it, less if you can=92t.=A0 Your host: Dan Wilcox. Michael Bostick is the author of =93Mou-si: Life Lessons and Thoughts = Set=20 to Poetry=94, published by RoseDog Books in May, and was the subject of = a=20 profile about his writing in the Albany Times-Union in October.=A0His=20 poetry explores such varied subjects as social ills, spirituality,=20 alcoholism, love, race and responsibility. ### ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:34:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: assuming the defense position? In-Reply-To: <009601c87218$685b13c0$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is just silly. Pound was way more extreme in an extreme time than passive antisemites like Eliot and Williams, and he worked hard to propagate his views, certainly with a degree of awareness of the murderous results of those views--this was not something that most people did. I read him, I admire a lot of the work, even some of it that makes me wince, but with far more ambivalence than I read, say, Dante or Shakespeare (who also make me wince), who expressed views that were murderous in their time but almost universal. I expect that my being Jewish has something to do with this. As Alison said about reading as a woman applies to Jews and all the other outsiders of European culture. One learns to take what's valuable from the trash heap, and one notes that the trash doesn't smell any better. Mark At 05:24 AM 2/18/2008, you wrote: >I've been sitting back casually reading some of the polemic that this topic >has generated. There was a recent collection of Al Purdy's poetry issued. >The editor was Rob Budde. In his introduction, Rob explained why some poems >were not selected for inclusion. One of the ones not selected was 'Caribou >Horses', the title poem for the collection which won Purdy the Governor >General's award in 1964, I believe. Budde's position was that this poem, the >setting of which was Thousand Mile House in the Rockies of Alberta, referred >to female Indians as 'squaws' and various Indian groups - the Blackfoot, >Sioux, etc. - as if they were homogeneous. If Budde had looked into Purdy's >life a little more, he would have discovered that Purdy was involved in >Indian rights and anti-discrimination. The depiction Purdy created in his >poem was necessary in order to instil the proper atmosphere and was using >the conventions of the time. There was no offense intended. Nor, given >Purdy's background, could there have been. >Certainly, Pound's situation is not the same. Not even close. Yes, he was >anti-Semitic. Yes, he was a fascist. But, if we examine his times, this was >probably the prevalent - or, at least, one of the prevalent - views. And >yes, this would have colored his poetry to a certain extent. But does this >mean, viewing Pound - and Eliot who held the same views - in hindsight, that >we must discard the poetry? My feeling is that we can regret that these >attitudes were once part of our culture and do our best to ensure they are >not part of our current cultural values, but that the poetry is still great >poetry. >There are probably a number of current cultural values in play which, when >viewed in the hindsight of a hundred years (provided the human race lasts >that long), are going to suffer the same fate. I think of the great feminist >literature and poetry which has been written and continues to be written. It >may, to a certain extent, be considered necessary today and in earlier days >as a means of liberating women but it does contain a great deal of >androgyny. This, at some point, will have to be dealt with - and, hopefully, >will not be dealt with by being discarded which would be a disservice to >feminist poets. >John Cunningham > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of Chris Stroffolino >Sent: February 17, 2008 10:00 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: assuming the defense position? > >Dear Amy--- > >I'll respond to the "opportunistic and pointless" charge... >In my response to David, I was primarily curious in the language of >that piece of journalism he was quoting. >I hadn't really been following this thread that deeply, so forgive me >if I missed some history, but I was mildly (but genuinely) curious >(still am) who wrote the piece, >as I couldn't tell in David's post when the MLA journalist's writing >stopped and David's own commentary started. >I thought asking David to talk more about it would be an interesting >entry into the conversation about Pound and such >(since I'm less interested in Pound than in the issues that often >come up when his name is evoked). > >Regardless of who wrote that piece (the one that begins with the >Hussein reference), I was curious about what the writers' attitude/ >stance/agenda, what-have-you- might be, >because it's interesting for me to hear what others (alive) think, >and put-forth, when they use words like 'cultural studies' and >'poetics'-- >hotly contested words and phrases in certain circles that I sometimes >have to put an appearance in... > >Anyway, even if I may end up largely disagreeing with the author of >that piece, I also have to admire >the intelligence that made the 'inappropriate' leap from Hussein to >whomever was head of the MLA before Perloff- >So I tried in that post to parse out what he was saying. >I guess I don't see what is 'opportunistic' or 'pointless' about >that.... >Yeah, maybe because my piece tried to be somewhat playful >(as I was thinking about the two allegedly opposing views---"cultural >studies" and "poetics"--I felt I had to try to balance the "deadly >serious" tone with a playful one to find that balance), >my tone could be read as flippant. > >But I'm curious about how (or why) what I wrote can be taken as >"assuming an attack position".... >I distrust the naturalization of many aspects Pound's poetics (I'm >not even talking about the fascism issue here, though that may play a >part) in contemporary American poetry, >and I find myself confronting it, almost daily, in my work as a >teacher, poet, and other writing (not so much in my music, coz the >Pound-assumptions aren't so much an issue there). >Sure, there will be times I catch my self spouting a Poundian-ism >here and there, or find points of agreement with Vendler, Perloff, >Bernsteiin, and others, > >but I do agree with those who argue that contemporary poetry is still >understood too narrowly (I'm trying to avoid the word 'boring') >and want to encourage students (and others who may be skeptical >toward "poetry'') > to realize that "poetry" can have a wider range than many >spokespeople for it acknowledge or admit (whether 'mainstream' or >whatever...), >to say nothing of what others who never really read much poetry >(besides say "My Papa's Waltz" and "Aunt Jennifer's Tigers") often >reduce it to... >In short, that poetry can accomodate their most profound needs if >they need those needs accomodated. > >But, oh no, now I might be doing nothing more than "Assuming a >Defense Position." Well, so be it. >The long and short of it is, re: your point (stutter, stutter)-- >Some of my disagreements with Bernstein for instance are probably >well-documented somewhere, but we do agree on some things >(like, for instance, the need to argue about poetics and/or culture >in a public context, and try to be entertaining about it in one way >or another), >and that argument sometimes becomes an "argument against >argument" (or we'd probably all be dead by now)... >and we may disagree over MUSIC, the meaning of music, the kind of >music we like, or even play, >but such disagreements, if respectful and playful, do not mean we >couldn't sit on a panel together... > >Maybe Amy, we then disagree on the meaning (or feeling) of play and >respect >(now those two 1967 "Queen of Soul" hits a >re going through my so-called head) >and that's why I'm asking you now > > > > > > > >On Feb 17, 2008, at 12:55 PM, amy king wrote: > > > David and Chris, > > > > This kind of 'criticism' feels a bit opportunistic and > > pointless ... first, who stopped their day short when Saddam > > Hussein was, unbeknownst to the American public, hanged? I didn't > > even hear about it until the nightly news. Should I have foreseen > > the event and stopped teaching my Writing Poetry class earlier that > > evening? > > > > > > Second, the quote from the MLA event does not exclude the kind of > > inquiry Bernstein outlines in "Pounding Fascism" -- he did not say, > > "We will not teach students to consider the sociological and > > historical effects on poetry or vice versa." What he did say is > > something that is taught in most basic poetry courses, which is > > that we will study poems as works of art ("art" certainly does not > > exclude considerations of the influence of history and sociology), > > and we will not teach students to 'extract sociological > > information,' as in, we're not mining poems for facts > > ("information") and throwing the stylized husks away, but rather > > something more complex: we'll study how poems function, create and > > sell what they seem to sell, how artifice illicits/solicits > > emotional and intellectual response, etc. Nice mining for that > > quote though ... > > > > What I find more compelling about this kind of reaching 'argument' > > is its frequency and that it seems to appear whenever Bernstein is > > mentioned as though he is some kind of pariah to be dealt blows on > > appearance alone ... I'd really like to know what it is about > > Language Poetry (I'm assuming this is an associative response) that > > is so threatening that a) everything he has written is blanketly > > stamped with disapproval and b) the mere mention of the man > > conjures an aggressive affront worthy of a murderer. I should note > > that those who react to the mere mention of his name usually tend > > to be a rotating few. But the vehemence ... it astounds me. > > Usually when I don't agree with someone's politics and/or poetry, I > > say I don't like it, I might even go so far as to not like them and > > dismiss the entire package -- but I don't assume the attack > > position if they walk into the room, reach for the fact that he > > sneezed and then read it as an insult to validate my > > punch. My experiences with Bernstein (studied with him, but > > moreover, read his books) have revealed a generous spirit -- he has > > promoted poets of all kinds of flavors and styles, he allows for a > > wide range of ideas and discourse in his classroom as an educator, > > he has given poets this platform to voice their opinions, disagree, > > including criticism of his own work -- but some of that criticism > > has extended to him as a person, and that's the part I don't get. > > He has maintained this forum for many years now where I likely > > would have buckled. So really, I guess I'm just wondering about > > the handful of poets here who go beyond criticizing his work to > > transparently misconstrue and attack him in a way that really > > speaks to the attackers' desires ... > > > > Amy > > > > _______ > > > > > > > > > > > > Blog > > > > > > > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > > > > > Faculty Page > > > > > > > > http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Chris Stroffolino > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:32:08 PM > > Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot > > Dear > > David-- > > > > Who > > wrote > > this > > article? > > The > > idea > > that > > 60 > > American > > poets > > celebrated Dr. > > Perloff becoming > > the > > new > > MLA > > President > > (with > > CB > > as > > their > > spokesperson) > > in > > the > > wake of > > Hussein's > > murder > > is.....interesting. A > > better > > word > > than > > interesting? > > Hilarious? > > Scary? > > Absurd? > > Sneaping? Is > > the > > analogy > > accurate? > > In > > a > > way > > no, > > but > > in > > a > > way > > yes--- > > > > Against > > the > > backdrop > > of > > the > > severed > > Hussein > > head, > > there's > > Haliburton/blackwater > > regime and > > Marjorie > > Perloff. (as > > if > > the > > old > > MLA > > "cultural > > studies" > > regimes > > were > > like > > Hussein)... > > > > Of > > course, > > if > > CB > > is > > to > > be > > believed, > > I'm > > just > > writing > > about > > 29 December > > 2006 as > > a > > "Work > > of > > Art," > > here, > > and > > not > > trying > > to > > "extract > > sociological > > or historical > > information > > from" > > it-- > > > > Yet, > > even > > though > > the > > Dead > > Saddam > > image's > > cultural > > relevance > > may > > be tangential > > to > > the > > main > > point > > of > > this > > article, and > > to > > the > > politics > > of > > the > > MLA > > (and > > was > > used > > by > > Bush > > et > > al > > to > > 'wag the > > dog' > > for > > Iraqis > > and > > Americans), if > > we > > consider > > this > > article > > a > > 'work > > of > > art,' > > it > > becomes > > an > > effective journalistic > > device.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/ > > newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1283 - Release Date: 16/02/2008 >2:16 PM > > >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 18/02/2008 >5:50 AM > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:36:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Pound - Poetics and Politics In-Reply-To: <47B99C4C.8040401@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Modernism wasn't a right-leaning tendency, though some important modernists leaned that way. I'd suggest you expand your list. Mark At 09:55 AM 2/18/2008, you wrote: >Kenneth, > >You missed an opportunity there. > >Instead of choosing to read this student's query as a sign of bad faith >and a fear in the professorial sin of "dismissing" a writer >(the horror), perhaps a more helpful reply might have been: > >"Yes, Susan, many modernists were quite misogynistic, that's true. As >well as classist and racist. And in fact a great deal of the poetry that >was suppressed during that time was suppressed precisely because it >contained progressive content. Modernism was a right-leaning literary >ideology. In fact, I could suggest, Susan, two great books by Cary >Nelson on the topic. One is /Repression and Recovery: Modern American >Poetry and the Politics of Cultural Memory/ and the other is >/Revolutionary Memory: Recovering the Poetry of the American Left/. I'd >be happy to hear what you think about these books." > >It would be better to praise this student's desire to read >politically, and to in fact inform her/him that it's utopian and >impossible not to. > >But it seems you instead chose to read this student's reasonable and in >many ways quite correct query as suspicious. > >I find myself feeling a little sorry for that student. > >Best, > >Gabriel >-- >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > >Kenneth Sherwood wrote: >"Last week, an undergraduate exchange student asked me "Isn't it true that >the modernists were against women?" What I hear behind this question as >behind some of the comments and observations to the list of late is a desire >to dismiss a writer on political grounds. The hurling of labels, whether >political/ideological or simply scatalogical is never a very promising >beginning to a dialogue, presuming that is one wants to enter a conversation >rather than merely blow off steam. > >Attempting to celebrate the poetry by severing it from the politics or >simply dismissing the poetry on account of the politics ... two sides of the >save evasive coin. Why not reflect on the complex negotiations with Pound >in some of his better readers? Oppen at the Mediterranean shore listening >to EP discuss the "boss," Zukofsky reconciling his personal friendship. > >I'm reminded of this Bernstein follow-up to the poetics list of many years >ago: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/essays/poundbern.html > >Rachel DuPlessis cultural poetics essays (Propounding Modernist Maleness, * >Modernism/Modernity* 9.3 (2002) 389-405) model, on a different ideological >vector, ways of reading in and through the politics. > >How much of the ideological "antipathy" towards Pound is based on a reading >of the politics of and within the poetry? How much reflects the received >wisdom about his radio broadcasts? Let's not reduce the list to the >equivalent of a CNN Presidential Candidate likability poll. Whether one >would rather have a beer with Ezra Pound or Mina Loy is really not the >question. Or, I should say, is not a question I find very promising. Who, >besides Ben Friedlander, has actually listened to the polemical broadcasts?" > > >__________________________________ >Kenneth Sherwood, PhD >Associate Professor of English >Graduate Program in Literature and Criticism >110 Leonard Hall >Indiana University of Pennsylvania >Indiana, PA 15705 > >www.sherwoodweb.org >-- >-- >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:57:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Filkins Subject: Important: Beyond Baroque Needs Your Help! In-Reply-To: <73b441f00802180946p281719e5lc15665de76a31e24@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Everyone: Here's the 411 on the situation. After years of hard work on the part of Fred Dewey and others advocating for Beyond Baroque, City Councilman Bill Rosendahl agreed at the end of fall 2007 to extend Beyond Baroque's lease of the building at 681 Venice Blvd. for another 25 years. We on the Board of Trustees went off into the holidays relieved that the issue had finally been resolved and that Beyond Baroque's homestead was secure. I was stunned to learn last night that last week, Councilman Rosendahl was informed by City Attorney Rocky Delgadillo's office that the City Attorney wants to put the lease to 681 Venice Blvd. up for an auction process for other non-profits to bid on. This despite the facts that: 1) It is generally up to the City Councilman of a given council district to determine how city property assets are parsed out for public use; 2) 681 Venice Blvd. has been Beyond Baroque's home for nearly 40 years; 3) Beyond Baroque's staff and supporters have put their time, money, and talents into not only keeping up and improving the building and its facilities, but also into beautifying its landscape. This new snag may be Mr. Delgadillo's way of playing politics with Councilman Rosendahl, but he has ordered a hearing to decide the matter NEXT TUESDAY. That's right. Rocky gives us until Tuesday, February 19, to do something about this. We need to take action NOW. Please send an e-mail to City Councilman Bill Rosendahl (Councilman.Rosendahl@lacity.org) to thank him for supporting the 25- year lease renewal for Beyond Baroque and to let him know that you support him in his battle to keep Beyond Baroque in its rightful home. IMPORTANT! Be sure to cc: the City Attorney (Rocky.Delgadillo@lacity.org) on your e-mail. Large numbers of e- mails WILL get their attention. It does not have to be a long e-mail. You can personalize it by adding a few words about what Beyond Baroque means to you as a resident of Los Angeles. If you aren't from L.A., please tell them that Beyond Baroque is an important reason for you to keep coming back to Venice and to Los Angeles. If you are from out of state or out of the country altogether, please talk about how you know of Beyond Baroque's outstanding reputation and why it's important for Los Angeles to protect and sustain its only literary arts center. Be polite and supportive so that both parties understand that keeping Beyond Baroque exactly where it is is a positive move that benefits everyone. Do this tonight or tomorrow. The hearing is on Tuesday. I thank you for taking action. Much love and in solidarity, Am=E9lie Frank Member, Board of Trustees Beyond Baroque http://www.beyondbaroque.org/ http://www.myspace.com/beyondbaroque --=20 "Act passionately; think rationally; be Thyself." - Liber Librae --=20 Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. Henry David Thoreau - Walden, 1854. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:46:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: assuming the defense position? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080218122723.0672aab8@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Points well taken -- but I have to say I find the concept of a "passive antisemite" startling -- this is a distinction I'm not sure I'd want to hold to -- At 12:34 PM 2/18/2008, you wrote: >This is just silly. Pound was way more extreme in an extreme time >than passive antisemites like Eliot and Williams, and he worked hard >to propagate his views, certainly with a degree of awareness of the >murderous results of those views--this was not something that most >people did. I read him, I admire a lot of the work, even some of it >that makes me wince, but with far more ambivalence than I read, say, >Dante or Shakespeare (who also make me wince), who expressed views >that were murderous in their time but almost universal. I expect >that my being Jewish has something to do with this. As Alison said >about reading as a woman applies to Jews and all the other outsiders >of European culture. One learns to take what's valuable from the >trash heap, and one notes that the trash doesn't smell any better. > >Mark > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." --Robert Kelly Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 112 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 [office] (814) 863-7285 [Fax] Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:02:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: benmazer@AOL.COM Subject: Landis EVerson Memorial CORRECTED LINEUP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Landis Everson Memorial Friday, February 22,?10:00 pm Please join us as we pay tribute to the life and poetry of Landis Everson. Readers will include Bill Berkson, Bill Corbett, John Hennessy, Matthew Henriksen, Katia Kapovich, Mark Lamoureux, Ben Mazer, Stephen Sturgeon, Jason Zuzga, Brian Henry, Stacy Szymszek, Andrew Zawacki The Poetry Project St Mark's Church in the Bowery 131 E 10th St New York, New York 10003 ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:22:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Important: Beyond Baroque Needs Your Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Easy to do & I hope it helps! ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: amy king To: Councilman.Rosendahl@lacity.org Cc: Rocky.Delgadillo@lacity.org Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:21:08 PM Subject: Dear City Councilman Bill Rosendahl, Thanks so much for supporting the 25-year lease renewal for Beyond Baroque! I just wanted to convey my support for your decision -- and battle -- to keep Beyond Baroque in its rightful home. Beyond Baroque's outstanding reputation is one of the primary reasons I visit Venice, CA -- please continue to protect and sustain its only literary arts center. Sincerely, Amy King cc: Rocky Delgadillo _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog Faculty Page http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:22:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: fascist poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Alison, Thanks for helping me understand the way gender inflects your reading of Pound and what you meant regarding the notion of the prophetic in Pound. It does seem hard for us to follow each other, yes. I'm chalking that up both to the overall political anxieties inhering in any reading of modernism and keenly so in EP, and to the anxieties attending the way posts to such a large listserv will inevitably be accidentally and sometimes willfully misread as performative or ironic or hostile. I assure you, my very substantial failings as a reader notwithstanding, that I've no willful desire to misread you (scary, isn't it!?) :) Because misreading is the word of the day, I'll, one last time, respond to your repeated concern, repeated here by you with new phrasing, despite some several posts to the contrary, that mine is a desire to "annihilate" Pound's "poetry from the face of the earth." This seems homologous to the paranoia about "dismissal" of authors. My response to that concern is this: this concern strike me as a symptom of an anxiety that a faith is being attacked. Pound, as a conflicted object of faith, a faith constructed and policed, is where the focus of my interest lies. I've been very grateful to be reacquainted, through Amy King's posts and through Kenneth Sherwood, Bernstein's account of his conflicted relationship to EP -- CB's quotes P: "Faith is totalitarian. The mystery is totalitarian." I am not attacking anyone's faith in EP. That faith and its object is unassailable from without. In order to properly attack that faith, one must adopt it and attacking it from within. Rather, I would again urge a sociological reading of the institutions that surround and construct the "belief" in Pound, the industry of Pound, the industry that creates, maintains -- and then polices -- a belief in Pound. Not to destroy Pound (he's safe, believe me), but to understand the canonizing function itself as a dynamic that in part encourages, fosters, and cherishes controversy as a means of provoking assent or, more aptly, submission. This is merely another approach to reading EP -- not as an end in itself, however (the modernist worry about the autonomous primacy of the text) but as a means of understanding the sociology of literature. Such a reading is not wrong. And it's not an attempt to efface the poetry, which is, as always, an interesting read. Fascist poetics is an apt phrasing. The fascist ideal of a populist authoritarian charismatic leader seeking to forge a state in which all individuality is subordinated to the leader's conception of that state is in many interesting ways homologous to canonicity. The desire to police a reading of Pound is what is wrought by the field. We remember controversy vividly. That is why it arises both as an individual tactic (posts re masculine transgressor) and a structural element. As such, the canon needs an enemy. Pound needs an enemy. Expect yourself to be called the enemy if you ready beyond what the field consitutes as "Pound." Sometimes that enemy is "dismissal," sometimes that enemy is elitism, sometimes that enemy is misreading, sometimes that enemy is the author herself or himself. In Pound's case -- and this is what makes him so intransigent -- that enemy is Pound himself. Anyway, take care and be well -- and be happy, Alison! Warmly, Gabriel -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:11:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: assuming the defense position? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the world's full of passive anti-semites you may be looking at one right now On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:46:49 -0500 Aldon Nielsen writes: > Points well taken -- but I have to say I find the concept of a > "passive antisemite" startling -- this is a distinction I'm not sure > > I'd want to hold to -- > > At 12:34 PM 2/18/2008, you wrote: > >This is just silly. Pound was way more extreme in an extreme time > >than passive antisemites like Eliot and Williams, and he worked > hard > >to propagate his views, certainly with a degree of awareness of the > > >murderous results of those views--this was not something that most > > >people did. I read him, I admire a lot of the work, even some of it > > >that makes me wince, but with far more ambivalence than I read, > say, > >Dante or Shakespeare (who also make me wince), who expressed views > > >that were murderous in their time but almost universal. I expect > >that my being Jewish has something to do with this. As Alison said > > >about reading as a woman applies to Jews and all the other > outsiders > >of European culture. One learns to take what's valuable from the > >trash heap, and one notes that the trash doesn't smell any better. > > > >Mark > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." > --Robert Kelly > > > Aldon Lynn Nielsen > George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature > Department of English > The Pennsylvania State University > 112 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 [office] > > (814) 863-7285 [Fax] > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:42:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: assuming the defense position? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080218134524.025e43c8@psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It doesn't make me real happy, either--I'll never get into the country club. But finding nazis simply way too lowlife in their behavior towards us distasteful Jews, as Williams and a great many other did, is way better than Pound's position. I'd much prefer a universal reform of the human spirit. Until then I'll settle for non-polar distinctions. Mark At 01:46 PM 2/18/2008, you wrote: >Points well taken -- but I have to say I find the concept of a >"passive antisemite" startling -- this is a distinction I'm not sure >I'd want to hold to -- > >At 12:34 PM 2/18/2008, you wrote: >>This is just silly. Pound was way more extreme in an extreme time >>than passive antisemites like Eliot and Williams, and he worked >>hard to propagate his views, certainly with a degree of awareness >>of the murderous results of those views--this was not something >>that most people did. I read him, I admire a lot of the work, even >>some of it that makes me wince, but with far more ambivalence than >>I read, say, Dante or Shakespeare (who also make me wince), who >>expressed views that were murderous in their time but almost >>universal. I expect that my being Jewish has something to do with >>this. As Alison said about reading as a woman applies to Jews and >>all the other outsiders of European culture. One learns to take >>what's valuable from the trash heap, and one notes that the trash >>doesn't smell any better. >> >>Mark > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >"I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." > --Robert Kelly > > >Aldon Lynn Nielsen >George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >Department of English >The Pennsylvania State University >112 Burrowes >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > >(814) 865-0091 [office] > >(814) 863-7285 [Fax] > >Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:20:52 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: sheila heti's dreams Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT check out her new blogs; i dream of barack, i dream of hillary; http://www.idreamofhillary.blogspot.com/ what ways can yer american politics fall into the collective unconscious? rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:25:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Alain Robbe-Grillet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at Catholic University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with unanimous enthusiasm . . . "] French writer Robbe-Grillet dies The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain Robbe-Grillet, the French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has died at the age of 85. He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed success, with novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied today. He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a director. The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France over the weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials said. Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western France. The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and worked as a statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. Murder He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays in the early 1960s. Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, narrative and chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, with the significance of objects more important than human action. Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated works and tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has come to investigate it. In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living on a banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical masterpiece, impeccably contrived". But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or inventories. The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, writing the screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making several films under his own name. Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who Lies). His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was published in 2007. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:49:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: Important: Beyond Baroque Needs Your Help! In-Reply-To: <988066.40228.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline yes! beyond baroque is one of the last bastions of real culture in los angeles. --no, no, that's not true, I'm joking. there are plenty of others, but it certainly is one of them, and an important one. I wrote in right away. e On 2/18/08, amy king wrote: > Easy to do & I hope it helps! > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: amy king > To: Councilman.Rosendahl@lacity.org > Cc: Rocky.Delgadillo@lacity.org > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:21:08 PM > Subject: > > > Dear City > Councilman > Bill > Rosendahl, > > Thanks so much > for > supporting > the > 25-year > lease > renewal > for > Beyond > Baroque! I just wanted to convey my support for your decision -- and battle > -- to keep > Beyond > Baroque > in > its > rightful home. > > Beyond > Baroque's outstanding > reputation is one of the primary reasons I visit Venice, CA -- please > continue to protect > and > sustain > its > only > literary > arts > center. > > Sincerely, > > Amy King > > cc: Rocky Delgadillo > > _______ > > Blog > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > Faculty Page > > http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:31:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: richard owens Subject: contact info for Joel Kuszai In-Reply-To: <47B9B349.5080402@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit if anyone has an email address for Joel Kuszai, please backchannel. rich... ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:36:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet In-Reply-To: <1203369958l.716808l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wow, i had no idea he was still alive! ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at Catholic > University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: > > "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with unanimous > enthusiasm . . . "] > > > > > > French writer Robbe-Grillet dies > > > > > > > > The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain Robbe-Grillet, the > French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has died at the > age of 85. > > > He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed success, with > novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied today. > > > He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a director. > > > The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France over the > weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials said. > > > Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western France. > > > The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and worked as a > statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. > > > Murder > > > He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays in the early > 1960s. > > > Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, narrative and > chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, with the > significance of objects more important than human action. > > > Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated works and > tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has come to > investigate it. > > > In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living on a > banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. > > > It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical masterpiece, > impeccably contrived". > > > But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or inventories. > > > The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, writing the > screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making several films > under his own name. > > > Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's > Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who Lies). > > > His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was published in > 2007. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:43:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: richard owens Subject: DTC in NYC In-Reply-To: <47B9B349.5080402@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit for anyone living in the NYC area, please come out! no cover. booze. bks (modestly priced). Boog City presents Punch Press and The Great American Armadildo Face Problems Gang Body: please forward ---------------- Boog City presents d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press Punch Press/damn the caesars (Buffalo, N.Y.) Tues. Feb. 26, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC Event will be hosted by Punch Press/damn the caesars editor Richard Owens Featuring readings from Richard Owens Kristin Prevallet Kyle Schlesinger Dale Smith and music from The Great American Armadildo Face Problems Gang There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum ------ **Punch Press/damn the caesars http://damnthecaesars.org/ Punch Press is a machine press used for cutting and shaping metal. Established in 2005, Punch Press is a small press poetry imprint committed to supporting work that ignites and destructs. The mission is impossible. The work is affordable. This in a historical moment when nothing is more important than rethinking the possible. In addition to various broadsides, ephemeral publications and the journal Damn the Caesars, books brought out by Punch Press include Brian Mornar’s Repatterning, John Phillips’ Soundless, and Dale Smith’s Susquehanna. *Overall Performer Bios* **Richard Owens Richard Owens edits Damn the Caesars, a journal of contemporary poetry and poetics published through his own Punch Press. His work has appeared in O Poss, Aufgabe, Big Bridge, Cipher Journal, Kadar Koli, and Origin (Sixth Series in memory of Cid Corman), among others. He lives, works, and studies in Buffalo, N.Y. **Kristin Prevallet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Prevallet Kristin Prevallet is a poet, essayist, educator, and, most recently, the author of Shadow, Evidence, Intelligence (Factory School) and I, Afterlife: Essay in Mourning Time (Essay Press). She edited and introduced A Helen Adam Reader (National Poetry Foundation). She received a 2007 New York Foundation for the Arts fellowship in poetry and lives in Brooklyn, N.Y. **Kyle Schlesinger http://www.kyleschlesinger.com/ Kyle Schlesinger’s most recent book of poems is Hello Helicopter. **Dale Smith http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Smith_%28poet%29 Dale Smith edits O Poss! with Hoa Nguyen and Scott Pierce. He edited with Nguyen 10 issues of Skanky Possum and continues irregularly to publish Skanky Possum Books. His essays and reviews have appeared in First Intensity, Jacket, and elsewhere, and he writes for the online book industry monthly Bookslut, where his monthly column on poetry appears. His books include American Rambler (Thorp Springs), The Flood & The Garden (First Intensity), and, most recently, Black Stone (Effing). His newest book, Susquehanna, was published by Punch Press in January. He is a Ph.D. candidate in rhetoric and writing at the University of Texas at Austin. **The Great American Armadildo Face Problems Gang http://www.myspace.com/thegreatamericanarmadildofaceproblemsgang The Great American Armadildo Face Problems Gang is a collective of artists and musicians from Orange County, N.Y. The work of John Cage, various Fluxus artists, Missing Foundations, Attila the Stockbroker, and John Cooper Clark informs their practice. ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: rePound Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Amy, Thanks for your response. Let me deal with some=20 of your points as I see them. I don=92t know if=20 these will satisfy you, but I=92ll try. =93You claim that Bernstein's "revising literary=20 history" (a claim you also don't explain) is an=20 attempt to 'valorize language centered writing'=20 -- I'm not trying to be provocative here & I read=20 your excerpt, but I just don't understand what=20 you base this assumption on or why. Did you=20 arrive at this conclusion simply by association?=94 First, I don=92t =93claim=94 but say =93I suspect the=20 motive beind this essay etc...=94 I suspect this=20 because Bernstein does say that =93=92hyperspace=92 of=20 Pound=92s modernist collage is...the product of a=20 compositionally decentered multiculturalism... a=20 polyvocal textuality,=94 terms often deployed as a=20 critique by the language-centered poets against=20 other more mono-vocal poetries (read=20 L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE if you doubt me). Further, I=20 have spent the better part of the essay, some 20=20 pp. describing how Seiburth, Froula (even Kenner,=20 as I read him) and Michael Andre Bernstein show=20 that, indeed, the Cantos is in fact presenting =93a=20 predetermined Truth of pan cultural=20 elitism.=94 And even more, as I go on to say in my=20 piece. Bernstein=92s =93claims=94 about Pound=92s=20 canonization are not in agreement with the=20 historical record. Bernstein turns the criticism=20 of Pound upside down. As a technician and=20 craftsman he was honored, as a political thinker=20 (including the fascism, the economics, the=20 monetary policies=ADyou name it) that Bernstein=20 says led to his =91acceptance) was almost always negatively critiqued. =93Also, your argument on Pound seems to require an=20 either/or position -- Either Pound's poetry uses=20 the authorial voice of 'fascist aesthetics'=20 successfully or it legitimately uses the=20 polyvocal textuality that supports/explores the=20 indeterminate and its uncertain possibilities (& becomes a gothic?).=94 I say that=ADin keeping with the analysis so many=20 others have made=ADthat the =93multicultural=94 IS an=20 =93illusion,=94 an illusion because what looks like=20 polyvocality says the same thing over and=20 over. This is not just my idea, but that of so=20 many of the best commentators on Pound. Again,=20 you take a point that I consider to be worth=20 speculating about and turn it into something hard=20 and fast. I say a question is begged as to=20 =93whether Poundian techniques, in particular the=20 cultural plundering, revising and activity of=20 selection induced by the search for history=92s=20 repeats, the absence of a clearly defined=20 authorial voice, tend to undermine fascist=20 tendencies or aid in furthering them.=94 It=92s a question-- Amy, you say =93You state that using the former --=20 the "technology of fascism" ("The mechanisms of fascism not only respond to the indeterminate but use it, feeding it back into the social system, creating anxiety and paranoia in order to maintain and accomplish political purposes.") - renders the indeterminate an=20 "illusion", either making the implications and=20 repercussions of indeterminacy invisible or=20 absorbing indeterminacy for its own fascist use.=94 I=92m not sure I understand the point you were=20 trying to make. My point=ADand that of other=20 commentators on fascism (and other totalitarian=20 systems)=ADis that individuals are controlled by=20 =91indeterminacy,=92 by not knowing when they break=20 laws or say things that will get them in trouble,=20 by creating situations in which certain groups=20 are made the focus of hatreds without either=20 rational or specific links to actual structures=20 in the society. And, less well understood, when=20 the community with its special interests=20 overrides individual rights, standings, big lie as truth... =93... As if contradictions can't co-exist, as if=20 readers don't selectively celebrate and promote,=20 esp conservative ones as you named, one style=20 over another - willfully ignoring other styles=20 employed and the effects they have - while also=20 quietly using the politics of the co-existing=20 style to explore & dip a toe into that forbidden=20 pond ... Pound's fascism betrays his poetic=20 intent as he used the polyvocal to query and=20 explore *despite* his focus on authorial=20 proclamations and certainties to establish a=20 "phallic order" (Pound's term) ... What, and=20 moreover, *How* we hate reveals and speaks=20 volumes, sometimes betraying us and that=20 coherent/concrete facade we're so intent on=20 constructing, even despite what we say we're trying to sell ...=94 I don=92t disagree (I even agree) with the above,=20 except to repeat my point, there is only the=20 illusion of polyvocality in Pound=ADwe can disagree on this, I guess. Re. the Graves comment, I'm not sure if I=20 understand it. The Pound poem was, if I recall,=20 pre-Cantos, maybe even one of those poems Pound=20 showed Ford Madox Ford and had him rolling on the=20 floor with laughter, a roll which Pound said=20 saved him 30 years of misguided labor. Mike Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and=20 Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures: New and=20 Selected Poems (2003) available at=20 www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good=20 bookstores. Survey of work at=20 http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm=20 Collaborations with the composer Ellen Fishman=20 Johnson at http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:25:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet In-Reply-To: <1203369958l.716808l.0l@psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very sad. I really love grappling with his work, trying to see it. I laughed the entire time while reading a cantankerous interview with him in BookForum some time ago. So mean to Richard Howard. I would have loved to meet him and praise his work in bad French. Should have sent that letter... ____________________________________________ I searched, but I could not find You; I called You aloud, standing on the minaret; I rang the temple bell with the rising and setting of the sun; I bathed in the Ganges in vain; I came back from Kaaba disappointed; I looked for You in earth; I searched for You in heaven, my Beloved, but at last I have found You hidden as a pearl in the shell of my heart. Complete Sayings, Hazrat Inayat Khan On Feb 18, 2008, at 4:25 PM, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at Catholic > University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: > > "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with > unanimous > enthusiasm . . . "] > > > > > > French writer Robbe-Grillet dies > > > > > > > > The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain > Robbe-Grillet, the > French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has died > at the > age of 85. > > > He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed success, > with > novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied > today. > > > He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a > director. > > > The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France > over the > weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials > said. > > > Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western France. > > > The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and worked > as a > statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. > > > Murder > > > He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays in > the early > 1960s. > > > Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, narrative > and > chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, with > the > significance of objects more important than human action. > > > Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated > works and > tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has come to > investigate it. > > > In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living > on a > banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. > > > It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical > masterpiece, > impeccably contrived". > > > But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or > inventories. > > > The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, > writing the > screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making > several films > under his own name. > > > Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's > Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who Lies). > > > His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was > published in > 2007. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:35:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Fwd: protest poems Comments: To: Ren Powell In-Reply-To: <47B9557F.9030106@online.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I know many of you are familiar with Ren and this project from WOMPO and Facebook, but... last week, my new workshop, Ron, and I all agreed it was = a satirical age -- either we are all wrong or... Catherine P.S. I have not been reading the really excellent Pound discussion carefully, but -- there's a wonderful book I once read about Italian fascis= t art shows -- much earlier than official art shows in some other european countries which are not Italy -- how most every artist came because, sort o= f like the time share pitch, the fascist art show was the price one paid for an otherwise sponsored trip to Italy. Last time I will post about the protest poems project here, I promise. But I wanted to let everyone know that the the project will continue. The current compilation is online now www.protestpoems.org and a call for the next action is out - for the Tunisian comedian H=E9di Ou= led Baballah. Since he was arrested for satire, I am asking for satire. There is a sign up form on the website if you would like to be alerted for new calls. I know these are unedited compilations (a voice is a voice, and I don't think the people in prison care if it is off-key), so if you are concerned about wanting to use the poem elsewhere- I will send the poem to the diplomats, but leave it off the online compilation - using first letters or other spacers to indicate your participation. Please take the time to read about the project. I am sure most of us think that protest letters are a waste of time. But they aren't. I have two friends who can testify to that. If you link from "it has happened before", you can find their poems. alt godt, ren --=20 please visit my websites: http://renpowell.com Babel Fruit Literary Journal http://babelfruit.org --=20 All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:37:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet In-Reply-To: <1203369958l.716808l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous screenplay Last Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by far, the profoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema. Didn't Robbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ? aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:26 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Alain Robbe-Grillet [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at Catholic University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with unanimous enthusiasm . . . "] French writer Robbe-Grillet dies The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain Robbe-Grillet, the French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has died at the age of 85. He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed success, with novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied today. He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a director. The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France over the weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials said. Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western France. The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and worked as a statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. Murder He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays in the early 1960s. Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, narrative and chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, with the significance of objects more important than human action. Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated works and tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has come to investigate it. In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living on a banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical masterpiece, impeccably contrived". But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or inventories. The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, writing the screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making several films under his own name. Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who Lies). His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was published in 2007. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:10:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: fascist poetics (Tired yet??!!) In-Reply-To: <47B9DAEA.2060600@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whether or not Pound's stock is up or down out of all this, I do suggest, since I am just up to my knees in it, a read of Gabriel Gudding's rather phenomenal (in all senses of that word) RHODE ISLAND NOTEBOOK (Dalkey Archive, 2007). 'Astonislingly ambitious' probably a stupid phrase to apply to a work that is clearly compelled by a life obligation to literally drive through and face hell - with humor, insight, dread - there upon a cross that mixes the country, divorce, a child, mixed into the heavy Iraq national poisoned collective fog on an ironic bunch of roads that constitute getting back and forth between Normal and Providence (only our national version of Pilgrims Progress could provide or nail anybody with that kind of municipal nominology!). On some level, from Gabriel's perspective, the work gets to the exposed nails under whether or not Mr. Pound should be cast in or out as 'our' national literary faux relief doughboy. Apart from all that, in the new,but not so new China lit fix, in addition or apart from Mr. Pound, it seems to west coast prejudiced me to elevate equal or more significant attentions to translation and religio work of Kenneth Rexroth, Philip Whalen, Joanne Kyger, A Ginsberg and early work of Gary Snyder - obviously none of them oblivious to Pound, but certainly very significantly on their feet, and certainly casting strong shadows -say, via Naropa - on American writing of the last 50 years (Kenneth Koch and other NY satires of such not withstanding). Without wanting to be prejudicial, one impulsively wonders where Marjoria Perloff - as a member of the UPenn project in China - may stand in relationship to these contemporary American poetic traditions that have been shaped by Japanese, Chinese and India sources of meditation/concentration - essentially religous tradiitons. Of course, what contemporary Chinese poets accept or dismiss of these traditions, undoubtedly, will also be of pivotal and on-going interest. I think its a great project on the part of UPenn - as far as I have read of it. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Gabriel Gudding wrote: Dear Alison, Thanks for helping me understand the way gender inflects your reading of Pound and what you meant regarding the notion of the prophetic in Pound. It does seem hard for us to follow each other, yes. I'm chalking that up both to the overall political anxieties inhering in any reading of modernism and keenly so in EP, and to the anxieties attending the way posts to such a large listserv will inevitably be accidentally and sometimes willfully misread as performative or ironic or hostile. I assure you, my very substantial failings as a reader notwithstanding, that I've no willful desire to misread you (scary, isn't it!?) :) Because misreading is the word of the day, I'll, one last time, respond to your repeated concern, repeated here by you with new phrasing, despite some several posts to the contrary, that mine is a desire to "annihilate" Pound's "poetry from the face of the earth." This seems homologous to the paranoia about "dismissal" of authors. My response to that concern is this: this concern strike me as a symptom of an anxiety that a faith is being attacked. Pound, as a conflicted object of faith, a faith constructed and policed, is where the focus of my interest lies. I've been very grateful to be reacquainted, through Amy King's posts and through Kenneth Sherwood, Bernstein's account of his conflicted relationship to EP -- CB's quotes P: "Faith is totalitarian. The mystery is totalitarian." I am not attacking anyone's faith in EP. That faith and its object is unassailable from without. In order to properly attack that faith, one must adopt it and attacking it from within. Rather, I would again urge a sociological reading of the institutions that surround and construct the "belief" in Pound, the industry of Pound, the industry that creates, maintains -- and then polices -- a belief in Pound. Not to destroy Pound (he's safe, believe me), but to understand the canonizing function itself as a dynamic that in part encourages, fosters, and cherishes controversy as a means of provoking assent or, more aptly, submission. This is merely another approach to reading EP -- not as an end in itself, however (the modernist worry about the autonomous primacy of the text) but as a means of understanding the sociology of literature. Such a reading is not wrong. And it's not an attempt to efface the poetry, which is, as always, an interesting read. Fascist poetics is an apt phrasing. The fascist ideal of a populist authoritarian charismatic leader seeking to forge a state in which all individuality is subordinated to the leader's conception of that state is in many interesting ways homologous to canonicity. The desire to police a reading of Pound is what is wrought by the field. We remember controversy vividly. That is why it arises both as an individual tactic (posts re masculine transgressor) and a structural element. As such, the canon needs an enemy. Pound needs an enemy. Expect yourself to be called the enemy if you ready beyond what the field consitutes as "Pound." Sometimes that enemy is "dismissal," sometimes that enemy is elitism, sometimes that enemy is misreading, sometimes that enemy is the author herself or himself. In Pound's case -- and this is what makes him so intransigent -- that enemy is Pound himself. Anyway, take care and be well -- and be happy, Alison! Warmly, Gabriel -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:10:47 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: fascist poetics In-Reply-To: <47B9DAEA.2060600@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Gabe, thanks for your post. Just one thing, while we're speaking of misreading: the line you pick up (annihilating Pound from the face of the earth as an abomination) is a consciously hyperbolic response to your own rather old testament language. You are thundering from the pulpit rather when you condemn Pound as an ABOMINATION, and it made me smile when you so misunderstood my use of "prophecy" (which I used thoughtlessly in the most banal way possible), in the same way I've been smiling at your aggressively masculinist, nay, controversial, defences of women in poetry, in which you point out how the discourse of masculinist controversy has been used to sideline many fair and deserving damsels. Of course you can't "destroy" Pound, any more than I can make him a saint. But there have been times and still are places where writers of all sorts of stripes have been banned or worse because of the supposed evil of their work. I can never hear such statements without unease. I do not have "faith" in Pound - how can anyone have faith in him? I read his poems. Here in my study, on the wrong continent, writing the wrong sort of poems, interested in the wrong artforms, even suspiciously pulpy and gothic, I am too far away to see what I'm supposed to be submitting to. I'm glad this conversation has prompted me to take the Cantos off the shelves and read them again. Myself, I would like to think poetry is about other possibilities besides the formation of enemies in order to maintain our creakily paranoid and destructive selves. Now that's utopic, since the world of poetry proves me wrong all the time, as indeed you point out, and it seems to be the shape of our wider political lives. I'm sorry it's like that, and I would like the world to be otherwise. I also know that, on a small scale, it can be. All best Alison -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:23:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Subject: Celebrate Philip Whalen at Beyond Baroque Feb 23rd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Celebrating the release of The Collected Poems of Philip Whalen =20 Beyond Baroque Saturday, February 23rd, 7:30 PM 681 Venice Blvd. Venice, CA Contact: 310-822-3006 A reading of Whalen's works by prominent poets including=20 David Meltzer, Aram Saroyan, Paul Vangelisti, Terri Carrion, Neeli Cherkovski, Phoebe Ozuna, and Michael Rothenberg. $7 admission; $5 for members ------------------------------------------------------- =20 The mountain is THERE (between two lakes)=20 I brought back a piece of its rock=20 Heavy dark-honey color=20 With a seam of crystal, some of the quartz=20 Stained by its matrix=20 Practically indestructible=20 A shift from opacity to brilliance=20 (The Zenbos say, "Lightning-flash & flint-spark") Like the mountains = where it was made =20 What we see of the world is the mind's=20 Invention and the mind=20 Though stained by it, becoming=20 Rivers, sun, mule-dung, flies-=20 Can shift instantly=20 A dirty bird in a square time=20 =20 Gone=20 Gone=20 REALLY gone=20 Into the cool=20 O MAMA!=20 =20 Like they say, "Four times up,=20 Three times down." I'm still on the mountain.=20 =20 -from Sourdough Mountain Lookout ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:53:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Pound - Poetics and Politics In-Reply-To: <47B99C4C.8040401@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gudding, I found that comment to be extremely rude and condescending. Kenneth's reaction was perfectly reasonable, and I think much more nuanced than you are giving him credit for, and yet in spite of that you felt the need to challenge his teaching ability and lament for his students. Look to thine own house, Gabe. All the best, Jason On Feb 18, 2008, at 6:55 AM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Kenneth, > > You missed an opportunity there. > > Instead of choosing to read this student's query as a sign of bad > faith > and a fear in the professorial sin of "dismissing" a writer > (the horror), perhaps a more helpful reply might have been: > > "Yes, Susan, many modernists were quite misogynistic, that's true. As > well as classist and racist. And in fact a great deal of the poetry > that > was suppressed during that time was suppressed precisely because it > contained progressive content. Modernism was a right-leaning literary > ideology. In fact, I could suggest, Susan, two great books by Cary > Nelson on the topic. One is /Repression and Recovery: Modern American > Poetry and the Politics of Cultural Memory/ and the other is > /Revolutionary Memory: Recovering the Poetry of the American Left/. > I'd > be happy to hear what you think about these books." > > It would be better to praise this student's desire to read > politically, and to in fact inform her/him that it's utopian and > impossible not to. > > But it seems you instead chose to read this student's reasonable > and in > many ways quite correct query as suspicious. > > I find myself feeling a little sorry for that student. > > Best, > > Gabriel > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ > > > Kenneth Sherwood wrote: > "Last week, an undergraduate exchange student asked me "Isn't it > true that > the modernists were against women?" What I hear behind this > question as > behind some of the comments and observations to the list of late is > a desire > to dismiss a writer on political grounds. The hurling of labels, > whether > political/ideological or simply scatalogical is never a very promising > beginning to a dialogue, presuming that is one wants to enter a > conversation > rather than merely blow off steam. > > Attempting to celebrate the poetry by severing it from the politics or > simply dismissing the poetry on account of the politics ... two > sides of the > save evasive coin. Why not reflect on the complex negotiations > with Pound > in some of his better readers? Oppen at the Mediterranean shore > listening > to EP discuss the "boss," Zukofsky reconciling his personal > friendship. > > I'm reminded of this Bernstein follow-up to the poetics list of > many years > ago: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/essays/poundbern.html > > Rachel DuPlessis cultural poetics essays (Propounding Modernist > Maleness, * > Modernism/Modernity* 9.3 (2002) 389-405) model, on a different > ideological > vector, ways of reading in and through the politics. > > How much of the ideological "antipathy" towards Pound is based on a > reading > of the politics of and within the poetry? How much reflects the > received > wisdom about his radio broadcasts? Let's not reduce the list to the > equivalent of a CNN Presidential Candidate likability poll. > Whether one > would rather have a beer with Ezra Pound or Mina Loy is really not the > question. Or, I should say, is not a question I find very > promising. Who, > besides Ben Friedlander, has actually listened to the polemical > broadcasts?" > > > __________________________________ > Kenneth Sherwood, PhD > Associate Professor of English > Graduate Program in Literature and Criticism > 110 Leonard Hall > Indiana University of Pennsylvania > Indiana, PA 15705 > > www.sherwoodweb.org > -- > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:22:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: metaplagarism and Prose politics Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Is anybody following this plagarism claim from Hillary Clinton. Local news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist is a series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the refrain "just words" ("'We hold these truths to be self-evident'... just words? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just words?", etc). It turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick Duvall in 2006, according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, were defending themselves against claims that their rhetoric was empty. So, if I follow right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's rhetoric (i.e. that it is 'merely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's meta-textual response (i.e. "are these words merely words") followed by the meta- critical point that the Obama speech was "plagarism", but not mentioning that it was plagarism of a speech made up mostly of other speeches. Apparently, she governs not only in prose, but in critical prose. Dillon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:19:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: <200802182358.m1INw0fV012281@ms-smtp-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I have been reading the fury of arguments around Pound the last two weeks, or so, with some bemusement because to me they have the quality of a discussion about the weather, whether winter or summer is good or bad. Let me explain. a) To me, there is no doubt that any argument about American poetry today would have been impossible without the existence of Ezra Pound. Or, if we could conceive his non-existence, our concepts of American poetry would hav= e been so different that it would be impossible for us to imagine them. This importance goes beyond good or bad poetry, beyond which of Ezra Pound's poe= m are good or bad. It has to do with the shaping of thought, what a poem is o= r can be, what a translation is or can be, what diction in a poem is or can be, etc. Olson, Creeley, Spicer, Duncan, Williams, Zukofsky, etc, etc., are all chIldren of Pound, more than Eliot ever was. He brought a sense of liberation, the entitlement of the poet over language, to poetry which very few of us would like to close the door and leave behind (Gabriel, do you think your wonderful, fantastic *rhode island notebook* could have been written without Pound? How many "experimental" poets today could simultaneously appreciate and support poets as diverse as Frost, Eliot and Zukofsky?). b) As a human being (at least as a political human being), Pound was a creep. His appellation as "insane" was obviously a legal fig leaf used to prevent him from going to jail and having the key thrown away, even being executed, something achieved by poets (Jews, enemies, friends) who honored his contributions as a poet. These contradictions are facts. I do not see exactly what these arguments are doing, except making poets feel good about themselves for liking and admiring a poet whose political views are loathsome to them. For example, Gabe, what was the exact purpose of your original post which I think starte= d these discussions. Do you want to stop teaching American poetry after Emerson and Whitman? Do you really think there was a conscious conspiracy t= o "canonize" Pound as a male chauvinist, phallic icon? Is it not rather that = a number of poets, some of them quite different, were instinctively drawn to him, used and defended him, something still going on, including among women writers, as Alison's and Amy's posts here demonstrate? As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically democratic (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the collage structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, opening impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the only thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a political stanc= e per se. It can function very differently, with different social impacts, in the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the flarf practice of harvesting words and references from the web for ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of collage (also quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their autonomous place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being done) is deeply exploitative, offensive to me. Ciao, Murat On Feb 18, 2008 6:57 PM, Michael Heller wrote: > Dear Amy, > > Thanks for your response. Let me deal with some > of your points as I see them. I don't know if > these will satisfy you, but I'll try. > > > "You claim that Bernstein's "revising literary > history" (a claim you also don't explain) is an > attempt to 'valorize language centered writing' > -- I'm not trying to be provocative here & I read > your excerpt, but I just don't understand what > you base this assumption on or why. Did you > arrive at this conclusion simply by association?" > > First, I don't "claim" but say "I suspect the > motive beind this essay etc..." I suspect this > because Bernstein does say that "'hyperspace' of > Pound's modernist collage is...the product of a > compositionally decentered multiculturalism... a > polyvocal textuality," terms often deployed as a > critique by the language-centered poets against > other more mono-vocal poetries (read > L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE if you doubt me). Further, I > have spent the better part of the essay, some 20 > pp. describing how Seiburth, Froula (even Kenner, > as I read him) and Michael Andre Bernstein show > that, indeed, the Cantos is in fact presenting "a > predetermined Truth of pan cultural > elitism." And even more, as I go on to say in my > piece. Bernstein's "claims" about Pound's > canonization are not in agreement with the > historical record. Bernstein turns the criticism > of Pound upside down. As a technician and > craftsman he was honored, as a political thinker > (including the fascism, the economics, the > monetary policies=ADyou name it) that Bernstein > says led to his 'acceptance) was almost always negatively critiqued. > > "Also, your argument on Pound seems to require an > either/or position -- Either Pound's poetry uses > the authorial voice of 'fascist aesthetics' > successfully or it legitimately uses the > polyvocal textuality that supports/explores the > indeterminate and its uncertain possibilities (& becomes a gothic?)." > > I say that=ADin keeping with the analysis so many > others have made=ADthat the "multicultural" IS an > "illusion," an illusion because what looks like > polyvocality says the same thing over and > over. This is not just my idea, but that of so > many of the best commentators on Pound. Again, > you take a point that I consider to be worth > speculating about and turn it into something hard > and fast. I say a question is begged as to > "whether Poundian techniques, in particular the > cultural plundering, revising and activity of > selection induced by the search for history's > repeats, the absence of a clearly defined > authorial voice, tend to undermine fascist > tendencies or aid in furthering them." > It's a question-- > > Amy, you say "You state that using the former -- > the "technology of fascism" ("The > mechanisms > of > fascism > not > only > respond > to > the indeterminate > but > use > it, feeding > it > back > into > the > social > system, creating > anxiety > and > paranoia > in > order > to > maintain > and > accomplish political > purposes.") - renders the indeterminate an > "illusion", either making the implications and > repercussions of indeterminacy invisible or > absorbing indeterminacy for its own fascist use." > > I'm not sure I understand the point you were > trying to make. My point=ADand that of other > commentators on fascism (and other totalitarian > systems)=ADis that individuals are controlled by > 'indeterminacy,' by not knowing when they break > laws or say things that will get them in trouble, > by creating situations in which certain groups > are made the focus of hatreds without either > rational or specific links to actual structures > in the society. And, less well understood, when > the community with its special interests > overrides individual rights, standings, big lie as truth... > > "... As if contradictions can't co-exist, as if > readers don't selectively celebrate and promote, > esp conservative ones as you named, one style > over another - willfully ignoring other styles > employed and the effects they have - while also > quietly using the politics of the co-existing > style to explore & dip a toe into that forbidden > pond ... Pound's fascism betrays his poetic > intent as he used the polyvocal to query and > explore *despite* his focus on authorial > proclamations and certainties to establish a > "phallic order" (Pound's term) ... What, and > moreover, *How* we hate reveals and speaks > volumes, sometimes betraying us and that > coherent/concrete facade we're so intent on > constructing, even despite what we say we're trying to sell ..." > > I don't disagree (I even agree) with the above, > except to repeat my point, there is only the > illusion of polyvocality in Pound=ADwe can disagree on this, I guess. > > Re. the Graves comment, I'm not sure if I > understand it. The Pound poem was, if I recall, > pre-Cantos, maybe even one of those poems Pound > showed Ford Madox Ford and had him rolling on the > floor with laughter, a roll which Pound said > saved him 30 years of misguided labor. > > Mike > > Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and > Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures: New and > Selected Poems (2003) available at > www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good > bookstores. Survey of work at > http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm > Collaborations with the composer Ellen Fishman > Johnson at http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:03:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Fwd: protest poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit what is email to send protest poems to On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:35:51 -0800 Catherine Daly writes: > I know many of you are familiar with Ren and this project from WOMPO > and > Facebook, but... last week, my new workshop, Ron, and I all agreed > it was a > satirical age -- either we are all wrong or... > > Catherine > > P.S. I have not been reading the really excellent Pound discussion > carefully, but -- there's a wonderful book I once read about Italian > fascist > art shows -- much earlier than official art shows in some other > european > countries which are not Italy -- how most every artist came because, > sort of > like the time share pitch, the fascist art show was the price one > paid for > an otherwise sponsored trip to Italy. > > Last time I will post about the protest poems project here, I > promise. > But I wanted to let everyone know that the the project will > continue. > The current compilation is online now www.protestpoems.org > > and a call for the next action is out - for the Tunisian comedian > Hédi Ouled > Baballah. > Since he was arrested for satire, I am asking for satire. > > There is a sign up form on the website if you would like to be > alerted for > new calls. > > I know these are unedited compilations (a voice is a voice, and I > don't > think the people in prison care if it is off-key), so if you are > concerned > about wanting to use the poem elsewhere- I will send the poem to > the > diplomats, but leave it off the online compilation - using first > letters or > other spacers to indicate your participation. > > Please take the time to read about the project. I am sure most of us > think > that protest letters are a waste of time. But they aren't. I have > two > friends who can testify to that. If you link from "it has happened > before", > you can find their poems. > > > alt godt, > ren > > > > -- > > > > please visit my websites: > > http://renpowell.com > > > Babel Fruit Literary Journal > > org > > > > > > > > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:02:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit saw him live at anthology retrospect of his films he was at time visiting prof at nyu had him sign a few books when a woman asked him at q and a why he klled maimed treated women so bad in his films he simply answered well it's better than if i did it in real life or something very close to that also coincidentally a few days ago visited a writer firend of mine in beth israel she had suffered a minor heart attack she showed me the one book she felt worth reading that she found in the hospital's libray it was a first edition robbe-grillet hard back perfect in dust jacket that i didn't own and the name of which escapes me now funny how these things work i hadn't thought of him in years his films like his novels are great On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:25:22 -0500 Tisa Bryant writes: > Very sad. > I really love grappling with his work, trying to see it. I laughed > the > entire time while reading a cantankerous interview with him in > BookForum some time ago. So mean to Richard Howard. > I would have loved to meet him and praise his work in bad French. > > Should have sent that letter... > > ____________________________________________ > I searched, but I could not find You; I called You aloud, standing > on > the minaret; I rang the temple bell with the rising and setting of > the > sun; I bathed in the Ganges in vain; I came back from Kaaba > disappointed; I looked for You in earth; I searched for You in > heaven, > my Beloved, but at last I have found You hidden as a pearl in the > shell > of my heart. > > Complete Sayings, Hazrat Inayat Khan > On Feb 18, 2008, at 4:25 PM, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > > > [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at > Catholic > > University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: > > > > "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, > with > > unanimous > > enthusiasm . . . "] > > > > > > > > > > > > French writer Robbe-Grillet dies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain > > Robbe-Grillet, the > > French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has > died > > at the > > age of 85. > > > > > > He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed > success, > > with > > novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still > studied > > today. > > > > > > He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a > > director. > > > > > > The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in > France > > over the > > weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials > > > said. > > > > > > Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western > France. > > > > > > The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and > worked > > as a > > statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. > > > > > > Murder > > > > > > He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays > in > > the early > > 1960s. > > > > > > Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, > narrative > > and > > chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, > with > > the > > significance of objects more important than human action. > > > > > > Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most > celebrated > > works and > > tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has > come to > > investigate it. > > > > > > In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man > living > > on a > > banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. > > > > > > It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical > > > masterpiece, > > impeccably contrived". > > > > > > But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or > > > inventories. > > > > > > The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, > > > writing the > > screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making > > several films > > under his own name. > > > > > > Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's > > Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who > Lies). > > > > > > His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was > > published in > > 2007. > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > > We are enslaved by > > what makes us free -- intolerable > > paradox at the heart of speech. > > --Robert Kelly > > > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > The Pennsylvania State University > > 116 Burrowes > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:40:50 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robbe-Grillet and Godard did not collaborate, at least not on any film that= was actually made. It would have been interesting if they had, precisely b= ecause everything about them seems entirely incompatible.=0A=0ARobbe-Grille= t's last film, Gradiva, was shown in London last year at the Serpentine Gal= lery as part of a weekend-long tribute to him. It was atrocious. At best, t= he plot was like something from a '50s B-movie melodrama a la Edgar Ulmer o= r Joseph H. Lewis, only with lots of extraneous scenes of misogynous sexual= sadism piled on, and with a much clunkier and more conventional visual sty= le. A sad conclusion to a great career.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A= From: Aryanil Mukherjee =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO= .EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 12:37:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: Alain Ro= bbe-Grillet=0A=0AThanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous = screenplay =0ALast Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by f= ar, the=0Aprofoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema.=0A=0ADidn't R= obbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ?=0A=0Aaryanil=0A=0A-----O= riginal Message-----=0AFrom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LI= STSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0ABehalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN=0ASent: Monday, February= 18, 2008 4:26 PM=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASubject: Alain Robbe= -Grillet=0A=0A[this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at= Catholic=0AUniversity -- My favorite passage from his critical work:=0A=0A= "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with=0Aunani= mous=0Aenthusiasm . . . "]=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrench writer Robbe-Grillet die= s =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AThe writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voy= eur Alain Robbe-Grillet,=0Athe=0AFrench writer who pioneered the so-called = "new novel" genre, has died at the=0Aage of 85. =0A=0A=0AHe was best Known = for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed success, with=0Anovels such as L= es Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied today. =0A=0A=0AHe also= worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a director. =0A=0A=0A= The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France over th= e=0Aweekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials said= . =0A=0A=0ARobbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western Fra= nce. =0A=0A=0AThe son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering a= nd worked as a=0Astatistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a wr= iter. =0A=0A=0AMurder =0A=0A=0AHe developed the idea of the "nouveau roman"= in a series of essays in the=0Aearly=0A1960s. =0A=0A=0ADispensing with tra= ditional literary devices such as plot, narrative and=0Achronology, the new= novel sees story subordinated to structure, with the=0Asignificance of obj= ects more important than human action. =0A=0A=0ALes Gommes, his 1953 debut = novel, remains among his most celebrated works=0Aand=0Atells the story of a= murder committed by the detective who has come to=0Ainvestigate it. =0A=0A= =0AIn 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living o= n a=0Abanana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. =0A=0A= =0AIt was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical=0Amas= terpiece,=0Aimpeccably contrived". =0A=0A=0ABut his novels were sometimes a= ccused of resembling timetables or=0Ainventories. =0A=0A=0AThe author was a= lso associated with the new wave of French cinema, writing=0Athe=0Ascreenpl= ay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making several=0Afilms=0Au= nder his own name. =0A=0A=0AAmong his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The I= mmortal), 1966's=0ATrans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Ma= n Who Lies). =0A=0A=0AHis last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental N= ovel), was published in=0A2007. =0A=0A<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>= >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A=0AWe are enslaved by=0Awhat makes= us free -- intolerable=0Aparadox at the heart of speech.=0A--Robert Kelly= =0A=0ASailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/=0A=0AAld= on L. Nielsen=0AKelly Professor of American Literature=0AThe Pennsylvania S= tate University=0A116 Burrowes=0AUniversity Park, PA 16802-6200=0A=0A(814) = 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:48:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet In-Reply-To: <362069.85678.qm@web86007.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Barry, I remember the great effect *The Erasers* had on me when I first read it. I was in London at that time. It was with that novel I discovered how a disciplined depiction of physical object can capture traces of time (accumulation of different traces of dust in different places). Ciao, Murat On Feb 19, 2008 5:40 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Robbe-Grillet and Godard did not collaborate, at least not on any film > that was actually made. It would have been interesting if they had, > precisely because everything about them seems entirely incompatible. > > Robbe-Grillet's last film, Gradiva, was shown in London last year at the > Serpentine Gallery as part of a weekend-long tribute to him. It was > atrocious. At best, the plot was like something from a '50s B-movie > melodrama a la Edgar Ulmer or Joseph H. Lewis, only with lots of extraneous > scenes of misogynous sexual sadism piled on, and with a much clunkier and > more conventional visual style. A sad conclusion to a great career. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Aryanil Mukherjee > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 12:37:24 AM > Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > Thanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous screenplay > Last Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by far, the > profoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema. > > Didn't Robbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ? > > aryanil > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:26 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at Catholic > University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: > > "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with > unanimous > enthusiasm . . . "] > > > > > > French writer Robbe-Grillet dies > > > > > > > > The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain Robbe-Grillet, > the > French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has died at > the > age of 85. > > > He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed success, with > novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied today. > > > He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a director. > > > The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France over > the > weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials said. > > > Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western France. > > > The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and worked as > a > statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. > > > Murder > > > He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays in the > early > 1960s. > > > Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, narrative and > chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, with the > significance of objects more important than human action. > > > Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated works > and > tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has come to > investigate it. > > > In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living on > a > banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. > > > It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical > masterpiece, > impeccably contrived". > > > But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or > inventories. > > > The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, writing > the > screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making several > films > under his own name. > > > Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's > Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who Lies). > > > His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was published > in > 2007. > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:47:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Larissa Shmailo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out four dynamite new poems from NYC's Larissa Shmailo on PFS Post: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com The next PFS Presents will take place at the Fall Cafe in Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, on March 14, 7:30 pm, with Larissa Shmailo, Samantha Barrow, Rosanna Lee, and Adam Fieled. Books! "Opera Bufa" http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210 "Beams" http://www.blazevox..org/ebk-af.pdf --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:12:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: pound & heteroglossia -- and the radio broadcasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Heller's take on polyglossia in EP is akin to Bakhtin's thoughts on heteroglossia in novelized genres. Upshot is, at least in Bakhtinian terms, Mike Heller is more right, CB less so: EP's work is not truly "polyvocal" in any fully Bakhtinian sense. Bakhtin formulates heteroglossia as NOT just about many voices. It's a spectrum of many registers, a huge part of which is humor. Bakhtin provides a list of descriptors for what is heteroglossia, insisting that heteroglossia is "permeated with laughter, humor, elements of self-parody." Those are elements sorely lacking in ep cantos. (This as found in "Epic and Novel: Toward a Methodology of the Study of the Novel," as found in a few places, but I'm looking at is in David Duff's edition of _Modern Genre Theory_). More importantly EP's cantos reinforce rather than revise literariness and poeticalness -- and assert a national epic past and a national epic distance. Most importantly, they are the speech (or "a" speech) of official elite literary culture. They are not the speech of the "low," which is what MB says is a great part of dialogic heteroglossia as he formulates it. MB also insists that tragedy was always a polyglot genre and that polyglossia always existed -- so merely containing many voices is NOT itself some kind of structural radicalism. In short, /The Cantos/ are not poly- or heteroglossic. But Pound's *radio broadcasts* are. It's in the radio broadcasts -- as texts -- that Pound becomes heteroglossic in a truly Bakhtinian sense. (I've only read them, not listened to them). His sick humor -- racist, murderous, paranoid, whackjobby, yet weirdly self-parodic -- really comes to the fore. If you can consider the radio speeches "permeated with laughter, humor, elements of self-parody," you can see them as more dialogically polyglossic in a Bakhtinian sense. This coupled with the fact that they are both oral and written "text." Those who've read /The Cantos/, especially /The Pisan Cantos/, and who've not yet done so, might also read Leonard W. Doob's 1978 _Ezra Pound Speaking: Radio Speeches of WWII_ by Greenwood Press. It contains, as far as I know, the only collection in print of EP's war era speeches. The collection is not quite exhaustive, but almost all of them are there. In appendix 4 Doob "in serious jest" describes the speeches as "The Poor Man's Cantos." These are in some ways the real footnotes to the Cantos, esp the Pisans. Doob's appendices are interesting. Charts provide rough plot of his topics and types of persons/institutions mentioned. There is a 22 page glossary and index of names. It appears the only copies left new are hardbound. Gabe -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:24:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet In-Reply-To: <362069.85678.qm@web86007.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was saddened to read of Robbe-Grillet's passing in today's NY Times. He was a hero of mine in my teens. I loved his early novels and films but lost interest in his work after he got involved with sadomasochistic content. I have no idea what his later work is like. Perhaps he returned to the "greatness" and rigor of his early work, both in novels and in film. Fortunately or unfortunately, I have no idea. Regards, Tom Savage Barry Schwabsky wrote: Robbe-Grillet and Godard did not collaborate, at least not on any film that was actually made. It would have been interesting if they had, precisely because everything about them seems entirely incompatible. Robbe-Grillet's last film, Gradiva, was shown in London last year at the Serpentine Gallery as part of a weekend-long tribute to him. It was atrocious. At best, the plot was like something from a '50s B-movie melodrama a la Edgar Ulmer or Joseph H. Lewis, only with lots of extraneous scenes of misogynous sexual sadism piled on, and with a much clunkier and more conventional visual style. A sad conclusion to a great career. ----- Original Message ---- From: Aryanil Mukherjee To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 12:37:24 AM Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet Thanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous screenplay Last Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by far, the profoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema. Didn't Robbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ? aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:26 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Alain Robbe-Grillet [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at Catholic University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with unanimous enthusiasm . . . "] French writer Robbe-Grillet dies The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain Robbe-Grillet, the French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has died at the age of 85. He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed success, with novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied today. He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a director. The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France over the weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials said. Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western France. The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and worked as a statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. Murder He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays in the early 1960s. Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, narrative and chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, with the significance of objects more important than human action. Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated works and tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has come to investigate it. In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living on a banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical masterpiece, impeccably contrived". But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or inventories. The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, writing the screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making several films under his own name. Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who Lies). His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was published in 2007. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:30:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: Berkson in Atlanta & New Orleans Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Bill Berkson Readings & Workshops February =AD March 2008 Atlanta: Friday, February 29, 8 pm Emory University Harris Hall Parlor * New Orleans: Wednesday, March 5, 6 pm Workshop/ Colloquium 5575 Woodlawn Place (540-486-8013) Thursday, March 6, 8 pm The Gold Mine Saloon 705 Dauphine Street (505-586-0745) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:44:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802190548k8fbd874qd2db731797b59926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) And was it in that novel or another that I encountered his exquisitely excruciating slo-mo description of a crowd of people moving through a passageway of the Metro? Hal Jay Billington Bulworth for President Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Feb 19, 2008, at 7:48 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Barry, > > I remember the great effect *The Erasers* had on me when I first > read it. I > was in London at that time. It was with that novel I discovered how a > disciplined depiction of physical object can capture traces of time > (accumulation of different traces of dust in different places). > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Feb 19, 2008 5:40 AM, Barry Schwabsky > wrote: > >> Robbe-Grillet and Godard did not collaborate, at least not on any >> film >> that was actually made. It would have been interesting if they had, >> precisely because everything about them seems entirely incompatible. >> >> Robbe-Grillet's last film, Gradiva, was shown in London last year >> at the >> Serpentine Gallery as part of a weekend-long tribute to him. It was >> atrocious. At best, the plot was like something from a '50s B-movie >> melodrama a la Edgar Ulmer or Joseph H. Lewis, only with lots of >> extraneous >> scenes of misogynous sexual sadism piled on, and with a much >> clunkier and >> more conventional visual style. A sad conclusion to a great career. >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Aryanil Mukherjee >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 12:37:24 AM >> Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet >> >> Thanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous screenplay >> Last Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by far, the >> profoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema. >> >> Didn't Robbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ? >> >> aryanil >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> ] On >> Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN >> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:26 PM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Alain Robbe-Grillet >> >> [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at >> Catholic >> University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: >> >> "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with >> unanimous >> enthusiasm . . . "] >> >> >> >> >> >> French writer Robbe-Grillet dies >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain Robbe- >> Grillet, >> the >> French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has >> died at >> the >> age of 85. >> >> >> He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed >> success, with >> novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied >> today. >> >> >> He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a >> director. >> >> >> The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France >> over >> the >> weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials >> said. >> >> >> Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western France. >> >> >> The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and >> worked as >> a >> statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. >> >> >> Murder >> >> >> He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays >> in the >> early >> 1960s. >> >> >> Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, >> narrative and >> chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, >> with the >> significance of objects more important than human action. >> >> >> Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated >> works >> and >> tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has come >> to >> investigate it. >> >> >> In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man >> living on >> a >> banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. >> >> >> It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical >> masterpiece, >> impeccably contrived". >> >> >> But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or >> inventories. >> >> >> The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, >> writing >> the >> screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making >> several >> films >> under his own name. >> >> >> Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's >> Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who Lies). >> >> >> His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was >> published >> in >> 2007. >> >> >> < >> < >> < >> < >> < >> < >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> We are enslaved by >> what makes us free -- intolerable >> paradox at the heart of speech. >> --Robert Kelly >> >> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >> >> Aldon L. Nielsen >> Kelly Professor of American Literature >> The Pennsylvania State University >> 116 Burrowes >> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >> >> (814) 865-0091 >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:48:37 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "In=". Rest of header flushed. From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, his early novels are amazing, as is L'Annee derniere a Marienbad.=0AIn= cidentally, as part of that same weekend, there was a sort of symposium whe= re various artists were called upon to speak about Robbe-Grillet and his in= fluence on their work, and Robbe-Grillet was supposed to speak and answer t= heir questions. Everything was going fine until the senior figure among the= artists, Dan Graham, started talking about how, back in the '60s, for the = New York artists, French writing was their ideal, their favorite critic was= Roland Barthes, and of course in part through Barthes they came to the nou= veau roman, which totally inspired them, they read all of them....and then = he added, "Of course, I preferred Michel Butor!" Well, you should have seen= Robbe-Grillet's eyebrows go up when his translator passed that on to him. = From then on in, everything Dan said made Robbe-Grillet angrier and angrier= , even the most anodyne things, and finally Robbe-Grillet stormed off.=0AI = once met his wife, now widow, Catherine. She was (maybe still is) a famous = dominatrix.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Murat Nemet-Nejat =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, 19 Febr= uary, 2008 1:48:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet=0A=0ABarry,=0A=0AI= remember the great effect *The Erasers* had on me when I first read it. I= =0Awas in London at that time. It was with that novel I discovered how a=0A= disciplined depiction of physical object can capture traces of time=0A(accu= mulation of different traces of dust in different places).=0A=0ACiao,=0A=0A= Murat=0A=0A=0AOn Feb 19, 2008 5:40 AM, Barry Schwabsky =0Awrote:=0A=0A> Robbe-Grillet and Godard did not collaborate, at = least not on any film=0A> that was actually made. It would have been intere= sting if they had,=0A> precisely because everything about them seems entire= ly incompatible.=0A>=0A> Robbe-Grillet's last film, Gradiva, was shown in L= ondon last year at the=0A> Serpentine Gallery as part of a weekend-long tri= bute to him. It was=0A> atrocious. At best, the plot was like something fro= m a '50s B-movie=0A> melodrama a la Edgar Ulmer or Joseph H. Lewis, only wi= th lots of extraneous=0A> scenes of misogynous sexual sadism piled on, and = with a much clunkier and=0A> more conventional visual style. A sad conclusi= on to a great career.=0A>=0A> ----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Aryanil= Mukherjee =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Se= nt: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 12:37:24 AM=0A> Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Gri= llet=0A>=0A> Thanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous scre= enplay=0A> Last Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by far,= the=0A> profoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema.=0A>=0A> Didn't= Robbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ?=0A>=0A> aryanil=0A>=0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A> From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:= POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0A> Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN=0A> Sent: Mo= nday, February 18, 2008 4:26 PM=0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Su= bject: Alain Robbe-Grillet=0A>=0A> [this sad news just in -- I met him once= , briefly, in 1982 at Catholic=0A> University -- My favorite passage from h= is critical work:=0A>=0A> "My novels have not been received, upon publicati= on in France, with=0A> unanimous=0A> enthusiasm . . . "]=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A= >=0A> French writer Robbe-Grillet dies=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> The = writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain Robbe-Grillet,=0A> t= he=0A> French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has die= d at=0A> the=0A> age of 85.=0A>=0A>=0A> He was best Known for his unorthodo= x narratives, but enjoyed success, with=0A> novels such as Les Gommes (The = Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied today.=0A>=0A>=0A> He also worked in f= ilm, first as a scriptwriter and later as a director.=0A>=0A>=0A> The novel= ist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France over=0A> the=0A>= weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials said.= =0A>=0A>=0A> Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western F= rance.=0A>=0A>=0A> The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineer= ing and worked as=0A> a=0A> statistician and an agronomist before finding f= ame as a writer.=0A>=0A>=0A> Murder=0A>=0A>=0A> He developed the idea of th= e "nouveau roman" in a series of essays in the=0A> early=0A> 1960s.=0A>=0A>= =0A> Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, narrative a= nd=0A> chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, with= the=0A> significance of objects more important than human action.=0A>=0A>= =0A> Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated wo= rks=0A> and=0A> tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who = has come to=0A> investigate it.=0A>=0A>=0A> In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy= ), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living on=0A> a=0A> banana plantation who = suspects his wife of having an affair.=0A>=0A>=0A> It was described in The = New York Times Book Review as "a technical=0A> masterpiece,=0A> impeccably = contrived".=0A>=0A>=0A> But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling= timetables or=0A> inventories.=0A>=0A>=0A> The author was also associated = with the new wave of French cinema, writing=0A> the=0A> screenplay for Alai= n Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making several=0A> films=0A> under hi= s own name.=0A>=0A>=0A> Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immor= tal), 1966's=0A> Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man = Who Lies).=0A>=0A>=0A> His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental = Novel), was published=0A> in=0A> 2007.=0A>=0A>=0A> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<= <<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>=0A> We are enslaved= by=0A> what makes us free -- intolerable=0A> paradox at the heart of speec= h.=0A> --Robert Kelly=0A>=0A> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstring= s.blogspot.com/=0A>=0A> Aldon L. Nielsen=0A> Kelly Professor of American Li= terature=0A> The Pennsylvania State University=0A> 116 Burrowes=0A> Univers= ity Park, PA 16802-6200=0A>=0A> (814) 865-0091=0A> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:59:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 02.19.08-02.24.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 LITERARY BUFFALO 02.19.08-02.24.08 ___________________________________________________________________________ BABEL WE ARE NOW OFFERING A 2-EVENT SPRING SUBSCRIPTION FOR =2440. Tickets for individual Babel events are also on sale. Call 832-5400 or visi= t http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel. March 13 Derek Walcott, St. Lucia, Winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize, =2425= April 24 Kiran Desai, India, Winner of the 2006 Man Booker Prize, =2425 ___________________________________________________________________________ EVENTS THIS WEEK 02.20.08 The Screening Room Caf=E9 Poetry Series Poet Lonnie B. Harrell & Musician Jason Gross (with special musical guest)= Wednesday, February 20, 7:30 p.m. Open Mic Sign-up at 7:15 p.m. The Screening Room Caf=E9, Northtown Plaza Business Center, 3131 Sheridan D= r. 02.21.08 Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series Christopher Fritton/Steven Zultanski Poetry Reading/Performance Thursday, February 21, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. & Medaille College/The Write Thing Reading Series Irving Feldman Poetry Reading Thursday, February 21, 7 p.m. Library =40 Huber Hall, Medaille Coll., 18 Agassiz Cir & new/reNEW Anne Goldsmith/Carol Townsend Poetry Reading Thursday, February 21, 7 p.m. Impact Gallery, Ste. 545, Tri-Main Ctr, 2495 Main 02.22.08 Exhibit X Fiction Series Cris Mazza Fiction Reading Friday, February 22, 7 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper 02.23.08 Just Buffalo Interdisciplinary Series Presents: JUST FOLK An evening of relaxed poetry and music presented in the peaceful back room= of Rust Belt Books. Featuring poets Sandra Jardine, Sharon Amos, and Annett= e Daniels-Taylor, folk singer, guitarist, and writer John Brady, and with emcee Joyce Carolyn. =A0 Saturday, February 23, 2008 at 8 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St., Buffalo. =A0 Admission is free. =A0 02.24.08 Burchfield-Penney Poets and Writers Ethan Paquin Poetry Reading Sunday, February 24, 2 p.m. Burchfield-Penney Art Center, Buffalo State College ___________________________________________________________________________ OPEN READINGS As of January, Just Buffalo's Open Reading series is no longer active. Lee= Farallo has told us that he needs a change. We are grateful for all the ye= ars he has put in and wish him luck as he moves on. At present, there is n= o one to take over for Lee, so we are suspending the third Sunday readings = at Rust Belt Books and the second Wednesday readings at the Carnegie Art Ce= nter indefinitely. If these events become active again, we will let you kn= ow. Meantime, we are still sponsoring two open mic readings a month - one a= t Center for Inquiry on the first Wednesday, and one at Tru-teas on the fir= st Sunday of each month. ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS-ONLY WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP ALERT: The Writing Crit group will convene at Rust Belt Books on Wed. Feb. = 20 at 7 p.m. to hear Lou Rera read from his new book. No group at the Marke= t Arcade on that night. The next meeting of the JB Writer's Critique group = will be the first Wednesday in March (March 5). Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. ___________________________________________________________________________ WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:16:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ala proust or?????? On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:48:03 -0500 Murat Nemet-Nejat writes: > Barry, > > I remember the great effect *The Erasers* had on me when I first > read it. I > was in London at that time. It was with that novel I discovered how > a > disciplined depiction of physical object can capture traces of time > (accumulation of different traces of dust in different places). > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Feb 19, 2008 5:40 AM, Barry Schwabsky > > wrote: > > > Robbe-Grillet and Godard did not collaborate, at least not on any > film > > that was actually made. It would have been interesting if they > had, > > precisely because everything about them seems entirely > incompatible. > > > > Robbe-Grillet's last film, Gradiva, was shown in London last year > at the > > Serpentine Gallery as part of a weekend-long tribute to him. It > was > > atrocious. At best, the plot was like something from a '50s > B-movie > > melodrama a la Edgar Ulmer or Joseph H. Lewis, only with lots of > extraneous > > scenes of misogynous sexual sadism piled on, and with a much > clunkier and > > more conventional visual style. A sad conclusion to a great > career. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Aryanil Mukherjee > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 12:37:24 AM > > Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > > > Thanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous > screenplay > > Last Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by far, > the > > profoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema. > > > > Didn't Robbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ? > > > > aryanil > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:26 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > > > [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at > Catholic > > University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: > > > > "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, > with > > unanimous > > enthusiasm . . . "] > > > > > > > > > > > > French writer Robbe-Grillet dies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain > Robbe-Grillet, > > the > > French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has > died at > > the > > age of 85. > > > > > > He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed > success, with > > novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still > studied today. > > > > > > He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a > director. > > > > > > The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in > France over > > the > > weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials > said. > > > > > > Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western > France. > > > > > > The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and > worked as > > a > > statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. > > > > > > Murder > > > > > > He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays > in the > > early > > 1960s. > > > > > > Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, > narrative and > > chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, > with the > > significance of objects more important than human action. > > > > > > Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most > celebrated works > > and > > tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has > come to > > investigate it. > > > > > > In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man > living on > > a > > banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. > > > > > > It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a > technical > > masterpiece, > > impeccably contrived". > > > > > > But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or > > inventories. > > > > > > The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, > writing > > the > > screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making > several > > films > > under his own name. > > > > > > Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's > > Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who > Lies). > > > > > > His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was > published > > in > > 2007. > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > > > > We are enslaved by > > what makes us free -- intolerable > > paradox at the heart of speech. > > --Robert Kelly > > > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > The Pennsylvania State University > > 116 Burrowes > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:27:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics In-Reply-To: <0C150E39-8BAC-4A9C-ABF3-68FF142B5BFE@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dillon Westbrook wrote: Is anybody following this plagiarism claim from Hillary Clinton. Any Clinton claim re plagiarism is automatically going to be treated as suspect and self-serving. On the larger level, I suggest to any of us that we take any line or phrase out of any of our poems, critical papers, whatever, and put that phrase into a "Google Search" and most claims of being "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very interesting smoke in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, girls, children. parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on the ultimate poly-glossolalia. Of course. I am making this all up, but you can still try it and prove this speculation right, 'original' or wrong!) Parenthetically, what is the name of the Bob Dylan song about the NY City poly-vocal politician who is able to campaign and mime the tastes, appetites and sounds of the various neighborhood ethnic groups?? Yes, the capacity to mime (or cut & paste) from other cultures may include a bunch of other power subtexts & agendas. Some of which may be genuinely respectful and full of delight and/or disturbance! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Local news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist is a series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the refrain "just words" ("'We hold these truths to be self-evident'... just words? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just words?", etc). It turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick Duvall in 2006, according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, were defending themselves against claims that their rhetoric was empty. So, if I follow right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's rhetoric (i.e. that it is 'merely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's meta-textual response (i.e. "are these words merely words") followed by the meta- critical point that the Obama speech was "plagarism", but not mentioning that it was plagarism of a speech made up mostly of other speeches. Apparently, she governs not only in prose, but in critical prose. Dillon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:19:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Tomorrow: Danielle Pafunda, Columbia College Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DANIELLE PAFUNDA LECTURE: "Stunt Doubles, Companion Species, and the Lyric" Wednesday, February 20, 2008 (5:30 p.m.) Columbia College Chicago Music Center Concert Hall 1014 South Michigan Avenue Free and open to the public For more information, call 312-344-8819 DANIELLE PAFUNDA is the Spring 2008 Visiting Poet-in-Residence at Columbia College Chicago. She is the author of two poetry collections, MY ZORBA (Bloof Books, 2008) and PRETTY YOUNG THING (Soft Skull Press, 2005), and the forthcoming chapbook A PRIMER FOR CYBORGS: THE CORPSE (Whole Coconut). She has been anthologized in the 2004, 2006, and 2007 editions of BEST AMERICAN POETRY, as well as in NOT FOR MOTHERS ONLY: CONTEMPORARY POETS ON CHILD-GETTING AND CHILD-REARING (Fence Books, 2007) and WOMEN POETS ON MENTORSHIP: EFFORTS AND AFFECTIONS (University of Iowa, 2008). Poetry, reviews, and essays appear in such publications as ACTION YES, CONJUNCTIONS, TRIQUARTERLY, and the GEORGIA REVIEW. She received a BA from Bard College, MFA in Poetry from New School University, and is currently a doctoral candidate in the University of Georgia Creative Writing Program. She is co-editor of the longstanding online literary journal LA PETITE ZINE, and a contributing curator at the new DELIRIOUS HEM. Her teaching and scholarly interests include 20th century American poetry, experimental poetry, gender theory, cultural and biocultural studies. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:44:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Artifact Reading Series Subject: Announcing Artifact Reading Series' return to a new East Bay venue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Artifact Reading Series Announces a New Partnership With the Oakland Art Gallery* * *Artifact: a reading series of innovative writing, is pleased to announce that it will soon return from its hiatus in a new location at the Oakland Art Gallery. Centrally located in the hustle and bustle of downtown Oakland's Frank H. Ogawa Plaza, the Oakland Art Gallery provides a vital site for national and regional envelope-pushing visual artists to display work ranging from painting and sculpture to video and new media. The writers Artifact has hosted--who range from post-Language writers like Juliana Spahr and Lisa Robertson to New Narrative writers like Robert Gluck and Dodie Bellamy--are certainly no strangers to unknown aesthetic territory, and this shared aesthetic, as well as the beauty of the space itself, makes the Oakland Art Gallery an ideal venue for hosting Artifact's textual experiments. This partnership will have its official kick off on March 22nd, 2008, with a reading by David Buuck, Craig Perez, and Leslie Scalapino. Artifact began in San Francisco's Mission District on November 20, 2004, in the living room of longtime friends and writers Melissa Benham and Chana Morgenstern. Recognizing a need for a new experimental poetry and prose venue, they began the Artifact Reading Series, which quickly became a vital social and artistic gathering spot for many Bay Area writers. Since then, the reading series has garnered praise in a number of newspaper and magazine articles. Venus Zine called it a "place for renegade literature," and Michelle Tea, writing in the San Francisco Bay Guardian, wrote that the series hearkens back to the "cozy salons of yore." Artifact maintains a partnership with Hooke Press (www.hookepress.com), which publishes chapbooks of "poetry, criticism, theory, writing, and ephemera" by past Artifact readers and other innovative writers, as well as Digital Artifact ( www.digitalartifactmagazine.com), an online journal interrogating narrative in contemporary culture through fiction, criticism, experimental prose, and web-based audio-visual work. Artifact is a Member of the Intersection Incubator, a program of Intersection for the Arts (www.theintersection.org) providing fiscal sponsorship, incubation and consulting services to artists. ** -- Artifact Reading Series Artifact Press Digital Artifact www.artifactsf.org www.artifactseries.blogspot.com www.digitalartifactmagazine.com Artifact is a Member of the Intersection for the Arts Incubator Program ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 04:44:12 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Danny Snelson Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet In-Reply-To: <788038.10600.qm@web86006.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thank you for this anecdote Barry. This is the Robbe-Grillet I admire too -- amazing how translational barriers reconfigure a character like Robbe-Grillet so entirely into the American context. Like Graham, Vito Acconci recently wrote (in the new intro for his the 0 to 9 reprint put out by Ugly Duckling Presse) that he considered himself sort of the Robbe-Grillet to Bernadette Mayer's Sarraute!!! The crossover from the new novel into the minimal / conceptual arts scene in New York in the 60s is really fascinating to me. In this way, I can't help but read (& I'd argue one might well read) Jealousy(still my favorite, why no mention of this title around?), The Erasers, Djinn (tho later) & even the autobiographical Ghosts in the Mirror in company with the conceptual writing projects like those of Graham and Acconci in the 60s/70s. Perverse, but I think productive. Also yes, I hear Catherine is still entertains as dominatrix. World renowned. In digging these passageways I would recommend her fantastic erotic text The Image (written under the alias Jean de Berg -- interestingly, a figure that plays prominent in Robbe-Grillet's collaboration with Rauschenberg). Recently, in an autobiographical work, Catherine admitted that Robbe-Grillet wrote the introduction to this work under the (fittingly unprovable at the time!) pseudonym Pauline Reage! I blogged around this idea once(&along some bondage side-tracks). On Feb 20, 2008 12:48 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Yes, his early novels are amazing, as is L'Annee derniere a Marienbad. > Incidentally, as part of that same weekend, there was a sort of symposium > where various artists were called upon to speak about Robbe-Grillet and his > influence on their work, and Robbe-Grillet was supposed to speak and answer > their questions. Everything was going fine until the senior figure among the > artists, Dan Graham, started talking about how, back in the '60s, for the > New York artists, French writing was their ideal, their favorite critic was > Roland Barthes, and of course in part through Barthes they came to the > nouveau roman, which totally inspired them, they read all of them....and > then he added, "Of course, I preferred Michel Butor!" Well, you should have > seen Robbe-Grillet's eyebrows go up when his translator passed that on to > him. From then on in, everything Dan said made Robbe-Grillet angrier and > angrier, even the most anodyne things, and finally Robbe-Grillet stormed > off. > I once met his wife, now widow, Catherine. She was (maybe still is) a > famous dominatrix. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 1:48:03 PM > Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > Barry, > > I remember the great effect *The Erasers* had on me when I first read it. > I > was in London at that time. It was with that novel I discovered how a > disciplined depiction of physical object can capture traces of time > (accumulation of different traces of dust in different places). > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Feb 19, 2008 5:40 AM, Barry Schwabsky > wrote: > > > Robbe-Grillet and Godard did not collaborate, at least not on any film > > that was actually made. It would have been interesting if they had, > > precisely because everything about them seems entirely incompatible. > > > > Robbe-Grillet's last film, Gradiva, was shown in London last year at the > > Serpentine Gallery as part of a weekend-long tribute to him. It was > > atrocious. At best, the plot was like something from a '50s B-movie > > melodrama a la Edgar Ulmer or Joseph H. Lewis, only with lots of > extraneous > > scenes of misogynous sexual sadism piled on, and with a much clunkier > and > > more conventional visual style. A sad conclusion to a great career. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Aryanil Mukherjee > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 12:37:24 AM > > Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > > > Thanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous screenplay > > Last Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by far, the > > profoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema. > > > > Didn't Robbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ? > > > > aryanil > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > > Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:26 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > > > [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at Catholic > > University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: > > > > "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, with > > unanimous > > enthusiasm . . . "] > > > > > > > > > > > > French writer Robbe-Grillet dies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain > Robbe-Grillet, > > the > > French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has died at > > the > > age of 85. > > > > > > He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed success, > with > > novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still studied > today. > > > > > > He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a director. > > > > > > The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in France over > > the > > weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, officials said. > > > > > > Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western France. > > > > > > The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and worked > as > > a > > statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. > > > > > > Murder > > > > > > He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of essays in > the > > early > > 1960s. > > > > > > Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, narrative and > > chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, with the > > significance of objects more important than human action. > > > > > > Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most celebrated > works > > and > > tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has come to > > investigate it. > > > > > > In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man living > on > > a > > banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. > > > > > > It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a technical > > masterpiece, > > impeccably contrived". > > > > > > But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables or > > inventories. > > > > > > The author was also associated with the new wave of French cinema, > writing > > the > > screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making several > > films > > under his own name. > > > > > > Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's > > Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who Lies). > > > > > > His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was > published > > in > > 2007. > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > We are enslaved by > > what makes us free -- intolerable > > paradox at the heart of speech. > > --Robert Kelly > > > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > The Pennsylvania State University > > 116 Burrowes > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:02:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics In-Reply-To: <17282.97181.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed You are aware that Obama has admitted it and said he should have given credit? It was a headline yesterday, hard to miss. Unlikely that, if he gets the nomination, he'll look like a boy scout when the Republicans are finished with him. Mark At 12:27 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote: >Dillon Westbrook wrote: Is anybody following >this plagiarism claim from Hillary Clinton. > > Any Clinton claim re plagiarism is automatically going to be > treated as suspect and self-serving. > > On the larger level, I suggest to any of us that we take any line > or phrase out of any of our poems, critical papers, whatever, and > put that phrase into a "Google Search" and most claims of being > "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very interesting smoke > in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, girls, children. > parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on the > ultimate poly-glossolalia. Of course. I am making this all up, but > you can still try it and prove this speculation right, 'original' or wrong!) > > Parenthetically, what is the name of the Bob Dylan song about the > NY City poly-vocal politician who is able to campaign and mime the > tastes, appetites and sounds of the various neighborhood ethnic > groups?? Yes, the capacity to mime (or cut & paste) from other > cultures may include a bunch of other power subtexts & agendas. > Some of which may be genuinely respectful and full of delight > and/or disturbance! > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > Local >news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist is a >series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the refrain >"just words" ("'We hold these truths to be self-evident'... just >words? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just words?", >etc). It turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick Duvall >in 2006, according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, were >defending themselves against claims that their rhetoric was empty. > >So, if I follow right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's rhetoric >(i.e. that it is 'merely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's meta-textual >response (i.e. "are these words merely words") followed by the meta- >critical point that the Obama speech was "plagarism", but not >mentioning that it was plagarism of a speech made up mostly of other >speeches. > >Apparently, she governs not only in prose, but in critical prose. > > >Dillon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:42:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics Comments: To: Mark Weiss In-Reply-To: 7.0.1.0.1.20080219190003.03264a90@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 and yet, none of the people yammering about this on television think for a minute that Obama should have credited the source of the several quotations he and Patrick were both using ---- On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 07:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > You are aware that Obama has admitted it and said he should have >given credit? It was a headline yesterday, hard to miss. > >Unlikely that, if he gets the nomination, he'll look like a boy scout >when the Republicans are finished with him. > >Mark > >At 12:27 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote: >>Dillon Westbrook wrote: Is anybody following >>this plagiarism claim from Hillary Clinton. >> >> Any Clinton claim re plagiarism is automatically going to be >> treated as suspect and self-serving. >> >> On the larger level, I suggest to any of us that we take any line >> or phrase out of any of our poems, critical papers, whatever, and >> put that phrase into a "Google Search" and most claims of being >> "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very >interesting smoke >> in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, girls, children. >> parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on the >> ultimate poly-glossolalia. Of course. I am making this all up, but >> you can still try it and prove this speculation right, 'original' or >wrong!) >> >> Parenthetically, what is the name of the Bob Dylan song about the >> NY City poly-vocal politician who is able to campaign and mime the >> tastes, appetites and sounds of the various neighborhood ethnic >> groups?? Yes, the capacity to mime (or cut & paste) from >other >> cultures may include a bunch of other power subtexts & agendas. >> Some of which may be genuinely respectful and full of delight >> and/or disturbance! >> >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> >> >> Local >>news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist is a >>series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the refrain >>"just words" ("'We hold these truths to be >self-evident'... just >>words? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just words?", >>etc). It turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick Duvall >>in 2006, according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, were >>defending themselves against claims that their rhetoric was empty. >> >>So, if I follow right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's rhetoric >>(i.e. that it is 'merely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's >meta-textual >>response (i.e. "are these words merely words") followed >by the meta- >>critical point that the Obama speech was "plagarism", but not >>mentioning that it was plagarism of a speech made up mostly of other >>speeches. >> >>Apparently, she governs not only in prose, but in critical prose. >> >> >>Dillon > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:57:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics In-Reply-To: <17282.97181.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Paracelsus+finger +thy+neighbor+contemptuously+only+to+thrash+%26+became+reinventered+or +a+natural+hopeless,+rats+knowing+without+stands.&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 On Feb 19, 2008, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > On the larger level, I suggest to any of us that we take any line > or phrase out of any of our poems, critical papers, whatever, and > put that phrase into a "Google Search" and most claims of being > "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very interesting smoke > in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, girls, children. > parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on the > ultimate poly-glossolalia. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:53:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Subject: UBUWEB :: Featured Resources Feb 2008 - Alan Licht & Bettina Funcke Comments: To: lowercase-sound@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Featured Resources: February 2008 Selected by Alan Licht 1. Derek Bailey Interview by Henry Kaiser http://www.ubu.com/sound/bailey.html 2. Richard Foreman MP3 loops from Now That Communism Is Dead My Life Feels Empty http://www.ubu.com/sound/foreman.html 3. Bruce Nauman "Record" http://www.ubu.com/sound/nauman.html 4. bpNichol -- all sound works http://www.ubu.com/sound/nichol.html 5. Cornelius Cardew "Stockhausen Serves Imperialism" http://www.ubu.com/historical/cardew/index.html 6. Philip Guston/Clark Coolidge "Poor Richard" http://www.ubu.com/historical/guston/guston_nixon.html 7. Lou Reed "the View from the Bandstand" http://www.ubu.com/aspen/aspen3/bandstand.html 8. Jack Smith "Buzzards Over Baghdad" http://www.ubu.com/aspen/aspen3/flipbook.html 9. Richard Meltzer "Barbara Mauritz: Music Box" http://www.ubu.com/concept/meltzer_music.html 10. Adrian Piper "Untitled 1968" http://www.ubu.com/concept/piper_68.html Over the past two decades, guitarist Alan Licht has worked with a veritable who's who of the experimental world. He has released five albums of compositions for tape and solo guitar, and his sound and video installations have been exhibited in the U.S. and Europe. His new book "Sound Art: Beyond Music, Between Media, the first extensive survey of the genre in English, was published by Rizzol"i in fall 2007. Featured Resources: February 2008 Selected by Bettina Funcke 1. Harun Farocki, Inextinguishable Fire (1969) http://www.ubu.com/film/farocki_inex.html and How to Live in the German Federal Republic (1986) http://www.ubu.com/film/farocki_leben.html 2. UbuWeb Hall of Shame http://www.ubu.com/resources/shame.html 3. Robert Frank, Energy and How to Get It (1981) http://www.ubu.com/film/frank.html 4. J. G. Ballard, Shanghai Jim (1991) http://www.ubu.com/film/ballard.html 5. Pandit Pran Nath Ragas of Morning and Night (1968) http://www.ubu.com/sound/nath.html 6. Hrabanus Marus De adoratione crucis ab opifice / De Laudibus Sanctae Crucis Augsburg (ca. 845) http://www.ubu.com/historical/early/early01.html 7. Jacques Lacan, Television (1973) http://www.ubu.com/film/lacan.html 8. Joan Jonas "The Anchor Stone" (1988) http://ubu.artmob.ca/sound/artist_tellus/Tellus-21-Artists_15_jonas.mp3 9. Inuit Throat Singing, from Ethnopoetics http://www.ubu.com/ethno/soundings/inuit.html 10. Assorted Street Posters (1985-present) from Outsiders http://www.ubu.com/outsiders/ass.html Bettina Funcke is the Senior U.S. Editor of Parkett Magazine. UbuWeb http://ubu.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:17:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit he spoke very good english i wonder why he needed the translator to tell him what graham said On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 04:44:12 +0900 Danny Snelson writes: > Thank you for this anecdote Barry. This is the Robbe-Grillet I admire > too -- > amazing how translational barriers reconfigure a character like > Robbe-Grillet so entirely into the American context. Like Graham, > Vito > Acconci recently wrote (in the new intro for his the 0 to 9 reprint > put out > by Ugly Duckling Presse) that he considered himself sort of the > Robbe-Grillet to Bernadette Mayer's Sarraute!!! The crossover from > the new > novel into the minimal / conceptual arts scene in New York in the > 60s is > really fascinating to me. In this way, I can't help but read (& I'd > argue > one might well read) > Jealousy(still > my favorite, why no mention of this title around?), The Erasers, > Djinn (tho later) & even the autobiographical Ghosts in the Mirror > in > company with the conceptual writing projects like those of Graham > and > Acconci in the 60s/70s. Perverse, but I think productive. > > Also yes, I hear Catherine is still entertains as dominatrix. World > renowned. In digging these passageways I would recommend her > fantastic > erotic text The Image (written under the alias Jean de Berg -- > interestingly, a figure that plays prominent in Robbe-Grillet's > collaboration with Rauschenberg). Recently, in an autobiographical > work, > Catherine admitted that Robbe-Grillet wrote the introduction to this > work > under the (fittingly unprovable at the time!) pseudonym Pauline > Reage! > > I blogged around this idea > once(&along > some bondage side-tracks). > > > On Feb 20, 2008 12:48 AM, Barry Schwabsky > > wrote: > > > Yes, his early novels are amazing, as is L'Annee derniere a > Marienbad. > > Incidentally, as part of that same weekend, there was a sort of > symposium > > where various artists were called upon to speak about > Robbe-Grillet and his > > influence on their work, and Robbe-Grillet was supposed to speak > and answer > > their questions. Everything was going fine until the senior figure > among the > > artists, Dan Graham, started talking about how, back in the '60s, > for the > > New York artists, French writing was their ideal, their favorite > critic was > > Roland Barthes, and of course in part through Barthes they came to > the > > nouveau roman, which totally inspired them, they read all of > them....and > > then he added, "Of course, I preferred Michel Butor!" Well, you > should have > > seen Robbe-Grillet's eyebrows go up when his translator passed > that on to > > him. From then on in, everything Dan said made Robbe-Grillet > angrier and > > angrier, even the most anodyne things, and finally Robbe-Grillet > stormed > > off. > > I once met his wife, now widow, Catherine. She was (maybe still > is) a > > famous dominatrix. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 1:48:03 PM > > Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > > > Barry, > > > > I remember the great effect *The Erasers* had on me when I first > read it. > > I > > was in London at that time. It was with that novel I discovered > how a > > disciplined depiction of physical object can capture traces of > time > > (accumulation of different traces of dust in different places). > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > On Feb 19, 2008 5:40 AM, Barry Schwabsky > > > wrote: > > > > > Robbe-Grillet and Godard did not collaborate, at least not on > any film > > > that was actually made. It would have been interesting if they > had, > > > precisely because everything about them seems entirely > incompatible. > > > > > > Robbe-Grillet's last film, Gradiva, was shown in London last > year at the > > > Serpentine Gallery as part of a weekend-long tribute to him. It > was > > > atrocious. At best, the plot was like something from a '50s > B-movie > > > melodrama a la Edgar Ulmer or Joseph H. Lewis, only with lots > of > > extraneous > > > scenes of misogynous sexual sadism piled on, and with a much > clunkier > > and > > > more conventional visual style. A sad conclusion to a great > career. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Aryanil Mukherjee > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Tuesday, 19 February, 2008 12:37:24 AM > > > Subject: Re: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > > > > > Thanks for passing it on. Who would forget his marvellous > screenplay > > > Last Year At Marienbad done for Alain Resnais - perhaps, by far, > the > > > profoundest handling of the memory theme in cinema. > > > > > > Didn't Robbe-Grillet work on several Godard projects too ? > > > > > > aryanil > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On > > > Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN > > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:26 PM > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: Alain Robbe-Grillet > > > > > > [this sad news just in -- I met him once, briefly, in 1982 at > Catholic > > > University -- My favorite passage from his critical work: > > > > > > "My novels have not been received, upon publication in France, > with > > > unanimous > > > enthusiasm . . . "] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > French writer Robbe-Grillet dies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The writer's novels include Les Gommes and Le Voyeur Alain > > Robbe-Grillet, > > > the > > > French writer who pioneered the so-called "new novel" genre, has > died at > > > the > > > age of 85. > > > > > > > > > He was best Known for his unorthodox narratives, but enjoyed > success, > > with > > > novels such as Les Gommes (The Erasers) and Le Voyeur still > studied > > today. > > > > > > > > > He also worked in film, first as a scriptwriter and later as a > director. > > > > > > > > > The novelist was admitted to the Caen University Hospital in > France over > > > the > > > weekend for cardiac problems and died on Monday morning, > officials said. > > > > > > > > > Robbe-Grillet was born on 18 August, 1922, in Brest, western > France. > > > > > > > > > The son of an engineer, he studied agricultural engineering and > worked > > as > > > a > > > statistician and an agronomist before finding fame as a writer. > > > > > > > > > Murder > > > > > > > > > He developed the idea of the "nouveau roman" in a series of > essays in > > the > > > early > > > 1960s. > > > > > > > > > Dispensing with traditional literary devices such as plot, > narrative and > > > chronology, the new novel sees story subordinated to structure, > with the > > > significance of objects more important than human action. > > > > > > > > > Les Gommes, his 1953 debut novel, remains among his most > celebrated > > works > > > and > > > tells the story of a murder committed by the detective who has > come to > > > investigate it. > > > > > > > > > In 1958's La Jalousie (Jealousy), Robbe-Grillet writes of a man > living > > on > > > a > > > banana plantation who suspects his wife of having an affair. > > > > > > > > > It was described in The New York Times Book Review as "a > technical > > > masterpiece, > > > impeccably contrived". > > > > > > > > > But his novels were sometimes accused of resembling timetables > or > > > inventories. > > > > > > > > The author was also associated with the new wave of French > cinema, > > writing > > > the > > > screenplay for Alain Resnais' Last Year at Marienbad and making > several > > > films > > > under his own name. > > > > > > > > > Among his movies are 1963's L'Immortelle (The Immortal), 1966's > > > Trans-Europ-Express, and 1968's L'Homme Qui Ment (The Man Who > Lies). > > > > > > > > > His last novel, Un Roman Sentimental (A Sentimental Novel), was > > published > > > in > > > 2007. > > > > > > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > > > > > > We are enslaved by > > > what makes us free -- intolerable > > > paradox at the heart of speech. > > > --Robert Kelly > > > > > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > > The Pennsylvania State University > > > 116 Burrowes > > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:25:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080219190003.03264a90@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But what, precisely, was he supposed to say: "As Patrick Duvall said, quoting Thomas Jefferson, and I quote..." It just seems really hard to represent that level of nested quotations in oratory. Could be a new form though- the fully cited and annotated campaign speech. Agreed, the GOP will probably have a veritable army of copy-editors on his ass. That is, if they don't just assasinate him like every African-American over fifty that I talk thinks they are going to. Dillon On Feb 19, 2008, at 4:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > You are aware that Obama has admitted it and said he should have > given credit? It was a headline yesterday, hard to miss. > > Unlikely that, if he gets the nomination, he'll look like a boy > scout when the Republicans are finished with him. > > Mark > > At 12:27 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote: >> Dillon Westbrook wrote: Is anybody >> following this plagiarism claim from Hillary Clinton. >> >> Any Clinton claim re plagiarism is automatically going to be >> treated as suspect and self-serving. >> >> On the larger level, I suggest to any of us that we take any line >> or phrase out of any of our poems, critical papers, whatever, and >> put that phrase into a "Google Search" and most claims of being >> "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very interesting >> smoke in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, girls, >> children. parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on >> the ultimate poly-glossolalia. Of course. I am making this all up, >> but you can still try it and prove this speculation right, >> 'original' or wrong!) >> >> Parenthetically, what is the name of the Bob Dylan song about the >> NY City poly-vocal politician who is able to campaign and mime the >> tastes, appetites and sounds of the various neighborhood ethnic >> groups?? Yes, the capacity to mime (or cut & paste) from other >> cultures may include a bunch of other power subtexts & agendas. >> Some of which may be genuinely respectful and full of delight and/ >> or disturbance! >> >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> >> >> Local >> news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist is a >> series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the refrain >> "just words" ("'We hold these truths to be self-evident'... just >> words? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just words?", >> etc). It turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick Duvall >> in 2006, according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, were >> defending themselves against claims that their rhetoric was empty. >> >> So, if I follow right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's rhetoric >> (i.e. that it is 'merely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's meta-textual >> response (i.e. "are these words merely words") followed by the meta- >> critical point that the Obama speech was "plagarism", but not >> mentioning that it was plagarism of a speech made up mostly of other >> speeches. >> >> Apparently, she governs not only in prose, but in critical prose. >> >> >> Dillon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 01:37:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wow i read this late was saddam hung when??? On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:55:47 -0800 amy king writes: > David and Chris, > > This kind of 'criticism' feels a bit opportunistic and pointless ... > first, who stopped their day short when Saddam Hussein was, > unbeknownst to the American public, hanged? I didn't even hear > about it until the nightly news. Should I have foreseen the event > and stopped teaching my Writing Poetry class earlier that evening? > > > > Second, the quote from the MLA event does not exclude the kind of > inquiry Bernstein outlines in "Pounding Fascism" -- he did not say, > "We will not teach students to consider the sociological and > historical effects on poetry or vice versa." What he did say is > something that is taught in most basic poetry courses, which is that > we will study poems as works of art ("art" certainly does not > exclude considerations of the influence of history and sociology), > and we will not teach students to 'extract sociological > information,' as in, we're not mining poems for facts > ("information") and throwing the stylized husks away, but rather > something more complex: we'll study how poems function, create and > sell what they seem to sell, how artifice illicits/solicits > emotional and intellectual response, etc. Nice mining for that > quote though ... > > What I find more compelling about this kind of reaching 'argument' > is its frequency and that it seems to appear whenever Bernstein is > mentioned as though he is some kind of pariah to be dealt blows on > appearance alone ... I'd really like to know what it is about > Language Poetry (I'm assuming this is an associative response) that > is so threatening that a) everything he has written is blanketly > stamped with disapproval and b) the mere mention of the man conjures > an aggressive affront worthy of a murderer. I should note that > those who react to the mere mention of his name usually tend to be a > rotating few. But the vehemence ... it astounds me. Usually when I > don't agree with someone's politics and/or poetry, I say I don't > like it, I might even go so far as to not like them and dismiss the > entire package -- but I don't assume the attack position if they > walk into the room, reach for the fact that he sneezed and then read > it as an insult to validate my > punch. My experiences with Bernstein (studied with him, but > moreover, read his books) have revealed a generous spirit -- he has > promoted poets of all kinds of flavors and styles, he allows for a > wide range of ideas and discourse in his classroom as an educator, > he has given poets this platform to voice their opinions, disagree, > including criticism of his own work -- but some of that criticism > has extended to him as a person, and that's the part I don't get. > He has maintained this forum for many years now where I likely would > have buckled. So really, I guess I'm just wondering about the > handful of poets here who go beyond criticizing his work to > transparently misconstrue and attack him in a way that really speaks > to the attackers' desires ... > > Amy > > _______ > > > > > > Blog > > > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > > > Faculty Page > > > > http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Chris Stroffolino > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:32:08 PM > Subject: Re: "Letters cast".. Cabri-Chirot > Dear > David-- > > Who > wrote > this > article? > The > idea > that > 60 > American > poets > celebrated Dr. > Perloff becoming > the > new > MLA > President > (with > CB > as > their > spokesperson) > in > the > wake of > Hussein's > murder > is.....interesting. A > better > word > than > interesting? > Hilarious? > Scary? > Absurd? > Sneaping? Is > the > analogy > accurate? > In > a > way > no, > but > in > a > way > yes--- > > Against > the > backdrop > of > the > severed > Hussein > head, > there's > Haliburton/blackwater > regime and > Marjorie > Perloff. (as > if > the > old > MLA > "cultural > studies" > regimes > were > like > Hussein)... > > Of > course, > if > CB > is > to > be > believed, > I'm > just > writing > about > 29 December > 2006 as > a > "Work > of > Art," > here, > and > not > trying > to > "extract > sociological > or historical > information > from" > it-- > > Yet, > even > though > the > Dead > Saddam > image's > cultural > relevance > may > be tangential > to > the > main > point > of > this > article, and > to > the > politics > of > the > MLA > (and > was > used > by > Bush > et > al > to > 'wag the > dog' > for > Iraqis > and > Americans), if > we > consider > this > article > a > 'work > of > art,' > it > becomes > an > effective journalistic > device.... > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ ___________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:53:42 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: calling C.A. Conrad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello out there, Dear C.A. Conrad, Could you please email me backchannel P.Brown@yahoo.com Thanks, Pam _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:20:46 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Maureen Dowd pretty much sums it up: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02= /20/opinion/20dowd.html?th&emc=3Dth=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AF= rom: Mark Weiss =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU= =0ASent: Wednesday, 20 February, 2008 12:02:00 AM=0ASubject: Re: metaplagar= ism and Prose politics=0A=0AYou are aware that Obama has admitted it and sa= id he should have =0Agiven credit? It was a headline yesterday, hard to mis= s.=0A=0AUnlikely that, if he gets the nomination, he'll look like a boy sco= ut =0Awhen the Republicans are finished with him.=0A=0AMark=0A=0AAt 12:27 P= M 2/19/2008, you wrote:=0A>Dillon Westbrook wrote: I= s anybody following =0A>this plagiarism claim from Hillary Clinton.=0A>=0A>= Any Clinton claim re plagiarism is automatically going to be =0A> treated= as suspect and self-serving.=0A>=0A> On the larger level, I suggest to an= y of us that we take any line =0A> or phrase out of any of our poems, criti= cal papers, whatever, and =0A> put that phrase into a "Google Search" and m= ost claims of being =0A> "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very = interesting smoke =0A> in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, gir= ls, children. =0A> parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on = the =0A> ultimate poly-glossolalia. Of course. I am making this all up, but= =0A> you can still try it and prove this speculation right, 'original' or = wrong!)=0A>=0A> Parenthetically, what is the name of the Bob Dylan song ab= out the =0A> NY City poly-vocal politician who is able to campaign and mime= the =0A> tastes, appetites and sounds of the various neighborhood ethnic = =0A> groups?? Yes, the capacity to mime (or cut & paste) from other =0A> cu= ltures may include a bunch of other power subtexts & agendas. =0A> Some of = which may be genuinely respectful and full of delight =0A> and/or disturban= ce!=0A>=0A> Stephen V=0A> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>= Local=0A>news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist = is a=0A>series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the refrai= n=0A>"just words" ("'We hold these truths to be self-evident'... just=0A>wo= rds? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just words?",=0A>etc). I= t turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick Duvall=0A>in 2006, = according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, were=0A>defending them= selves against claims that their rhetoric was empty.=0A>=0A>So, if I follow= right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's rhetoric=0A>(i.e. that it is 'me= rely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's meta-textual=0A>response (i.e. "are th= ese words merely words") followed by the meta-=0A>critical point that the O= bama speech was "plagarism", but not=0A>mentioning that it was plagarism of= a speech made up mostly of other=0A>speeches.=0A>=0A>Apparently, she gover= ns not only in prose, but in critical prose.=0A>=0A>=0A>Dillon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:43:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Devaney Subject: Stewart, Devaney & Briante at READING BTWN A&B -- 2/25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SUSAN STEWART THOMAS DEVANEY and SUSAN BRIANTE Will read poems and recent work at the READING BETWEEN A&B series 11th Street Bar 510 E. 11th Street Between Avenues A & B, on Monday February 25th at 7:30 PM ABOUT THE SERIES: Over the past eight years, the Reading Between A and B has bought together more than 400 established and emerging poets from diverse backgrounds. See www.readab.com for poems and upcoming readings. For more information -- http://www.readab.com/index.html ----- Forwarded message from Thomas Devaney ----- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:37:28 -0500 From: Thomas Devaney Reply-To: Thomas Devaney Subject: Stewart, Devaney, & Briante at READING BTWN A&B -- 2/25 To: tdevaney@writing.upenn.edu SUSAN STEWART THOMAS DEVANEY and SUSAN BRIANTE Will read poems and recent work at the READING BETWEEN A&B series 11th Street Bar 510 E. 11th Street Between Avenues A & B, on Monday February 25th at 7:30 PM ✴ ✴ ✴ ✴ ABOUT THE SERIES: Over the past eight years, the Reading Between A and B has bought together more than 400 established and emerging poets from diverse backgrounds. See www.readab.com for poems and upcoming readings. For more information -- http://www.readab.com/index.html ✴ ✴ ✴ ✴ ----- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:28:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Manson Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics In-Reply-To: <418747.97612.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Re: the Bob Dylan lyric is from the song "I Shall Be Free" The full verse from "The Freewheeling Bob Dylan" is: Now, the man on the stand he wants my vote He's a-runnin' for office on a ballot note He's out there preachin' in' front of the steeple Tellin' me he loves all kinds of people. He's eatin' bagels, he's eatin' pizzas, he's eatin' chitlins. He never sings the last line that's printed in the Bob Dylan Lyrics book: He's eatin' bullshit. Instead he would make this wild disgusted sort of "whe---eww!" sound, which has a similar connotation--but is noteworthy because its a "swallowed" lyric. There's other versions, such as "I Shall Be Free No. 10" on "Another Side of Bob Dylan" with this verse: Now, I'm liberal, but to a degree I want ev'rybody to be free But if you think that I'll let Barry Goldwater Move in next door and marry my daughter You must think I'm crazy! I wouldn't let him do it for all the farms in Cuba. This lyric is curious because Dylan mentions his admiration for Goldwater in the recent _Chronicles_ book, even though,.for some reason, & I know I'm crazy, I keep thinking he means Paul Wellstone. I like the way he turns the tables on a lot of racist rhetoric in these lines, switches the code. He did it once, he can do it again. d On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > I think Maureen Dowd pretty much sums it up: > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/opinion/20dowd.html?th&emc=th > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mark Weiss > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, 20 February, 2008 12:02:00 AM > Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics > > You are aware that Obama has admitted it and said he should have > given credit? It was a headline yesterday, hard to miss. > > Unlikely that, if he gets the nomination, he'll look like a boy scout > when the Republicans are finished with him. > > Mark > > At 12:27 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote: > >Dillon Westbrook wrote: Is anybody following > >this plagiarism claim from Hillary Clinton. > > > > Any Clinton claim re plagiarism is automatically going to be > > treated as suspect and self-serving. > > > > On the larger level, I suggest to any of us that we take any line > > or phrase out of any of our poems, critical papers, whatever, and > > put that phrase into a "Google Search" and most claims of being > > "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very interesting smoke > > in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, girls, children. > > parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on the > > ultimate poly-glossolalia. Of course. I am making this all up, but > > you can still try it and prove this speculation right, 'original' or > wrong!) > > > > Parenthetically, what is the name of the Bob Dylan song about the > > NY City poly-vocal politician who is able to campaign and mime the > > tastes, appetites and sounds of the various neighborhood ethnic > > groups?? Yes, the capacity to mime (or cut & paste) from other > > cultures may include a bunch of other power subtexts & agendas. > > Some of which may be genuinely respectful and full of delight > > and/or disturbance! > > > > Stephen V > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > Local > >news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist is a > >series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the refrain > >"just words" ("'We hold these truths to be self-evident'... just > >words? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just words?", > >etc). It turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick Duvall > >in 2006, according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, were > >defending themselves against claims that their rhetoric was empty. > > > >So, if I follow right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's rhetoric > >(i.e. that it is 'merely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's meta-textual > >response (i.e. "are these words merely words") followed by the meta- > >critical point that the Obama speech was "plagarism", but not > >mentioning that it was plagarism of a speech made up mostly of other > >speeches. > > > >Apparently, she governs not only in prose, but in critical prose. > > > > > >Dillon > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:44:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: pound & heteroglossia -- and the radio broadcasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline my sense is that almost all of them are NOT there and that doob selected no more than a third of the total for his edition. as i wrote a while back: "the finding aid for the beinecke library's pound collection lists 492 folders with radio speeches. this does not mean 492 discrete speeches as some are undoubtedly duplicates. there's also a folder titled "300 radiodiscorzi" (sounds so much better in italian), possibly a table of contents for an italian edition that pound wanted to publish. in any case, the 105 speeches doob printed in ezra pound speaking are likely only 1/3 or less of the total extant radio speeches." to be exact, the finding aid lists them as "Radio Articles A-Z" (Box 128 Folder 5312 thru Box 134 Folder 5804) tom orange > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:12:29 -0600 > From: Gabriel Gudding > Subject: pound & heteroglossia -- and the radio broadcasts > > [...] > > Those who've read /The Cantos/, especially /The Pisan Cantos/, and > who've not yet done so, might also read Leonard W. Doob's 1978 _Ezra > Pound Speaking: Radio Speeches of WWII_ by Greenwood Press. It contains, > as far as I know, the only collection in print of EP's war era speeches. > The collection is not quite exhaustive, but almost all of them are there. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:27:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: rePound / fascist poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murat, The answers to your questions are available already in my posts. The original post was a response to a notification from the MLA publications committee about the new Pound volume. No I do not want to "stop teaching American poetry after Emerson and Whitman." The how and why of the kind of pedagogy I've adopted is amply explained in my previous posts. Alison, I do not "condemn" EP as an abomination. But instead *teach* EP as an abomination -- in the technical, not euphemistic, sense of the word: as something in part ominously constructed of hatred and disgust that in turn inspires hatred and disgust to the point of ethical confusion. A pedagogical approach to Pound as a case study through which to teach the sociology of consecration and the canonizing function -- is not aberrant nor incorrect, just another way to approach literature. So, for I think the 5th time: no condemnation or dismissal. Kenneth, A public apology to accompany the backchannel apology to you about the presumptuous tone of my reply about your student: I regretted that post as soon as it left my send button. Best, Gabe Murat wrote: <> Alison wrote: <> -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:12:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802182219k487ec24fn3ac8b410d16b1564@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically democratic > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the collage > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, opening > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the only > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > political stance > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > impacts, in > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the flarf > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > collage (also > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their autonomous > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being done) > is deeply > exploitative, offensive to me. Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you find collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that isn't what you mean. Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be exploitative and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue rather than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as inherantly exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to do. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:09:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics Comments: To: Douglas Manson In-Reply-To: <60466cc60802200628t1ef8b75as915866f75fe58583@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Doug. I am glad you picked up and ran with this Dylan piece! At least Obama does not seem to be super slippery,or hypocritical about his choice of "covers" - an editorialist was joking about Obama as the first Presidential candidate to do 'covers' for other peoples songs, words. Why not if they are good choices? A little credit helps. (Help if I remembered the name of the editorial writer, too, for his 'concept.') I like the rap producer - who did not claim to be a singer - but has become a Utube success by just reciting Obama's speeches with to a rap sound back track. Loop-de-loo! Everybody seems to be getting into it. The restoration of speech, taking it back from the "arrogant, paranoid pre-emptive 'my way or the highway'beligerants!' Breathing again, so to speak. 'I am not there'. Je suis un autre. Bull shit. Vote! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Douglas Manson wrote: Re: the Bob Dylan lyric is from the song "I Shall Be Free" The full verse from "The Freewheeling Bob Dylan" is: Now, the man on the stand he wants my vote He's a-runnin' for office on a ballot note He's out there preachin' in' front of the steeple Tellin' me he loves all kinds of people. He's eatin' bagels, he's eatin' pizzas, he's eatin' chitlins. He never sings the last line that's printed in the Bob Dylan Lyrics book: He's eatin' bullshit. Instead he would make this wild disgusted sort of "whe---eww!" sound, which has a similar connotation--but is noteworthy because its a "swallowed" lyric. There's other versions, such as "I Shall Be Free No. 10" on "Another Side of Bob Dylan" with this verse: Now, I'm liberal, but to a degree I want ev'rybody to be free But if you think that I'll let Barry Goldwater Move in next door and marry my daughter You must think I'm crazy! I wouldn't let him do it for all the farms in Cuba. This lyric is curious because Dylan mentions his admiration for Goldwater in the recent _Chronicles_ book, even though,.for some reason, & I know I'm crazy, I keep thinking he means Paul Wellstone. I like the way he turns the tables on a lot of racist rhetoric in these lines, switches the code. He did it once, he can do it again. d On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > I think Maureen Dowd pretty much sums it up: > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/opinion/20dowd.html?th&emc=th > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mark Weiss > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, 20 February, 2008 12:02:00 AM > Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics > > You are aware that Obama has admitted it and said he should have > given credit? It was a headline yesterday, hard to miss. > > Unlikely that, if he gets the nomination, he'll look like a boy scout > when the Republicans are finished with him. > > Mark > > At 12:27 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote: > >Dillon Westbrook wrote: Is anybody following > >this plagiarism claim from Hillary Clinton. > > > > Any Clinton claim re plagiarism is automatically going to be > > treated as suspect and self-serving. > > > > On the larger level, I suggest to any of us that we take any line > > or phrase out of any of our poems, critical papers, whatever, and > > put that phrase into a "Google Search" and most claims of being > > "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very interesting smoke > > in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, girls, children. > > parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on the > > ultimate poly-glossolalia. Of course. I am making this all up, but > > you can still try it and prove this speculation right, 'original' or > wrong!) > > > > Parenthetically, what is the name of the Bob Dylan song about the > > NY City poly-vocal politician who is able to campaign and mime the > > tastes, appetites and sounds of the various neighborhood ethnic > > groups?? Yes, the capacity to mime (or cut & paste) from other > > cultures may include a bunch of other power subtexts & agendas. > > Some of which may be genuinely respectful and full of delight > > and/or disturbance! > > > > Stephen V > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > Local > >news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist is a > >series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the refrain > >"just words" ("'We hold these truths to be self-evident'... just > >words? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just words?", > >etc). It turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick Duvall > >in 2006, according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, were > >defending themselves against claims that their rhetoric was empty. > > > >So, if I follow right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's rhetoric > >(i.e. that it is 'merely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's meta-textual > >response (i.e. "are these words merely words") followed by the meta- > >critical point that the Obama speech was "plagarism", but not > >mentioning that it was plagarism of a speech made up mostly of other > >speeches. > > > >Apparently, she governs not only in prose, but in critical prose. > > > > > >Dillon > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:24:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: pound & heteroglossia -- and the radio broadcasts Comments: To: automatic digest system In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There must, Tom, be an interesting story behind that discrepancy because on page 428 of the Greenwood Press edition, in appendix 3, doob says, "Now that the actual texts of almost all the broadcasts are available in this book...." It makes a person wonder if Doob wasn't shown all the transcripts. Robert H. Walker does mention in the foreward, dated Febr 1978, that the "Pound Literary Trustees" were reluctant to have the transcripts in print: "We applaud, then, the respect for a complete historic record which has allowed the Pound Literary Trustees to overcome an understandable reluctance toward seeing these scripts in print." (page x) On the other hand, in the last paragraph of doob's intro, Doob lists himself as one of the "Pound Literary Trustees." So one has to wonder if Doob himself misrepresented their quantity in order to hide some (even more) unpleasant content. Doob writes, too, "Neither the Italian archives, for example, nor an examination of the papers at the Beinecke Library at Yale University have revealed why Pound ceased broadcasting between July 26, 1942, and February 18, 1943," which makes a person wonder if those broadcasts aren't "a missing 18 minutes." The first thing that comes to mind is perhaps EP'd learned of and commented on, during that time, the Nazi genocides. Gabe Tom Orange wrote: < to be exact, the finding aid lists them as "Radio Articles A-Z" (Box 128 Folder 5312 thru Box 134 Folder 5804) tom orange>> > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:12:29 -0600 > From: Gabriel Gudding > Subject: pound & heteroglossia -- and the radio broadcasts > > Mike Heller's take on polyglossia in EP is akin to Bakhtin's thoughts on > heteroglossia in novelized genres. > > Upshot is, at least in Bakhtinian terms, Mike Heller is more right, CB > less so: EP's work is not truly "polyvocal" in any fully Bakhtinian sense. > > Bakhtin formulates heteroglossia as NOT just about many voices. It's a > spectrum of many registers, a huge part of which is humor. > > Bakhtin provides a list of descriptors for what is heteroglossia, > insisting that heteroglossia is "permeated with laughter, humor, > elements of self-parody." Those are elements sorely lacking in ep > cantos. (This as found in "Epic and Novel: Toward a Methodology of the > Study of the Novel," as found in a few places, but I'm looking at is in > David Duff's edition of _Modern Genre Theory_). > > More importantly EP's cantos reinforce rather than revise literariness > and poeticalness -- and assert a national epic past and a national epic > distance. Most importantly, they are the speech (or "a" speech) of > official elite literary culture. They are not the speech of the "low," > which is what MB says is a great part of dialogic heteroglossia as he > formulates it. > > MB also insists that tragedy was always a polyglot genre and that > polyglossia always existed -- so merely containing many voices is NOT > itself some kind of structural radicalism. > > In short, /The Cantos/ are not poly- or heteroglossic. > > But Pound's *radio broadcasts* are. It's in the radio broadcasts -- as > texts -- that Pound becomes heteroglossic in a truly Bakhtinian sense. > (I've only read them, not listened to them). His sick humor -- racist, > murderous, paranoid, whackjobby, yet weirdly self-parodic -- really > comes to the fore. If you can consider the radio speeches "permeated > with laughter, humor, elements of self-parody," you can see them as more > dialogically polyglossic in a Bakhtinian sense. This coupled with the > fact that they are both oral and written "text." > > Those who've read /The Cantos/, especially /The Pisan Cantos/, and > who've not yet done so, might also read Leonard W. Doob's 1978 _Ezra > Pound Speaking: Radio Speeches of WWII_ by Greenwood Press. It contains, > as far as I know, the only collection in print of EP's war era speeches. > The collection is not quite exhaustive, but almost all of them are there. > > In appendix 4 Doob "in serious jest" describes the speeches as > "The Poor Man's Cantos." These are in some ways the real footnotes to > the Cantos, esp the Pisans. > > Doob's appendices are interesting. Charts provide rough plot of his > topics and types of persons/institutions mentioned. > > There is a 22 page glossary and index of names. > > It appears the only copies left new are hardbound. > > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:34:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Fwd: Beyond Baroque (LA), the struggle continues Comments: To: Therese Bachand , pussipo@googlegroups.com, wompo digests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline After a preliminary meeting between Councilman Rosendahl's staff and City Attorney Delgadillo's staff that concluded today, the issue of Beyond Baroque's lease extension enters a new phase. The City Attorney plans to make a recommendation that all city-owned properties have their leases put up for bid on expiration. This means not only Beyond Baroque but every property owned by the city that houses a non-profit or any other charitable entity will be required to bid for its lease renewal on the open market. Councilman Rosendahl intends to advocate for a review process that would take community needs into consideration before granting a lease, so that gives Beyond Baroque at least a fighting chance. The crisis is not over, however, since there must be community support for a review process that gives fair hearing to community needs. Thanks to the over 400 email messages received by Councilman Rosendahl's office over the weekend he is firmly in support of Beyond Baroque, so gratitude to everyone who answered Amelie's call for help. Richard Modiano, board of trustees, Beyond Baroque For the latest news about me: www.myspace.com/gmurraythomas. For all the info on SoCal Poetry, go to Poetix.net . Now available: Paper Shredders, an anthology of surf writing. Order it from your favorite bookseller. ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. ( http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages| Files| Photos [image: Yahoo! Groups] Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe . __,_._,___ -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:52:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics In-Reply-To: <60466cc60802200628t1ef8b75as915866f75fe58583@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Here's a link to the uncensore Michelle Obama clip. Apparently many news media edited it to make it seem as if she said something she didn't say. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&ad dress=385x95334 Marcus On 20 Feb 2008 at 9:28, Douglas Manson wrote: > Re: the Bob Dylan lyric is from the song "I Shall Be Free" > The full verse from "The Freewheeling Bob Dylan" is: > > Now, the man on the stand he wants my vote > He's a-runnin' for office on a ballot note > He's out there preachin' in' front of the steeple > Tellin' me he loves all kinds of people. > He's eatin' bagels, he's eatin' pizzas, he's eatin' chitlins. > > He never sings the last line that's printed in the Bob Dylan Lyrics > book: > > He's eatin' bullshit. > > Instead he would make this wild disgusted sort of "whe---eww!" > sound, > which has a similar connotation--but is noteworthy because its a > "swallowed" lyric. > > There's other versions, such as "I Shall Be Free No. 10" on > "Another > Side of Bob Dylan" with this verse: > > Now, I'm liberal, but to a degree > I want ev'rybody to be free > But if you think that I'll let Barry Goldwater > Move in next door and marry my daughter > You must think I'm crazy! > I wouldn't let him do it for all the farms in Cuba. > > This lyric is curious because Dylan mentions his admiration for > Goldwater in the recent _Chronicles_ book, > even though,.for some reason, & I know I'm crazy, I keep thinking > he > means Paul Wellstone. > I like the way he turns the tables on a lot of racist rhetoric in > these lines, switches the code. He did it once, he can do it > again. > > > d > > > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > > > I think Maureen Dowd pretty much sums it up: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/opinion/20dowd.html?th&emc=th > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Mark Weiss > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Wednesday, 20 February, 2008 12:02:00 AM > > Subject: Re: metaplagarism and Prose politics > > > > You are aware that Obama has admitted it and said he should have > > given credit? It was a headline yesterday, hard to miss. > > > > Unlikely that, if he gets the nomination, he'll look like a boy > scout > > when the Republicans are finished with him. > > > > Mark > > > > At 12:27 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote: > > >Dillon Westbrook wrote: Is anybody > following > > >this plagiarism claim from Hillary Clinton. > > > > > > Any Clinton claim re plagiarism is automatically going to be > > > treated as suspect and self-serving. > > > > > > On the larger level, I suggest to any of us that we take any > line > > > or phrase out of any of our poems, critical papers, whatever, > and > > > put that phrase into a "Google Search" and most claims of > being > > > "original" will go up in smoke (and sometime very interesting > smoke > > > in that Google will produce curious bed fellows, girls, > children. > > > parents, elders and non-tribal relatives - bordering on the > > > ultimate poly-glossolalia. Of course. I am making this all up, > but > > > you can still try it and prove this speculation right, > 'original' or > > wrong!) > > > > > > Parenthetically, what is the name of the Bob Dylan song about > the > > > NY City poly-vocal politician who is able to campaign and mime > the > > > tastes, appetites and sounds of the various neighborhood > ethnic > > > groups?? Yes, the capacity to mime (or cut & paste) from other > > > cultures may include a bunch of other power subtexts & > agendas. > > > Some of which may be genuinely respectful and full of delight > > > and/or disturbance! > > > > > > Stephen V > > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Local > > >news just ran footage of the Obama speech in question. The gist > is a > > >series of quotes of other campaign speeches, followed by the > refrain > > >"just words" ("'We hold these truths to be self-evident'... > just > > >words? "Ask not what your country can do for you'... just > words?", > > >etc). It turns out this bit of rhetoric was uttered by Patrick > Duvall > > >in 2006, according to their archive footage. Both, I take it, > were > > >defending themselves against claims that their rhetoric was > empty. > > > > > >So, if I follow right. There is meta-criticism of Obama's > rhetoric > > >(i.e. that it is 'merely rhetoric'), followed by Obama's > meta-textual > > >response (i.e. "are these words merely words") followed by the > meta- > > >critical point that the Obama speech was "plagarism", but not > > >mentioning that it was plagarism of a speech made up mostly of > other > > >speeches. > > > > > >Apparently, she governs not only in prose, but in critical > prose. > > > > > > > > >Dillon > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:38:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: rePound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i do alot of collage itis both exploitative and freely creative the exploitative quality is the ustilization of extant materials not one's own the freedom is in the making them into something wholey new there are 2 sides to this collaging of image and words (stealing/borrowing recontextualizing) possibly a worthy discussion enough with pound already too much for this illiterate to handle On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:12:02 -0800 Jim Andrews writes: > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > democratic > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > collage > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, > opening > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the > only > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > political stance > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > impacts, in > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > flarf > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > collage (also > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > autonomous > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being done) > > is deeply > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you > find > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that isn't > what you > mean. > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > exploitative > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue > rather > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > inherantly > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > do. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:42:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 45 (2008) Christopher Cessac | Milton, Louisiana & Homer, New York Christopher Cessac's book Republic Sublime won the Kenyon Review Prize in Poetry. His work has appeared in The Antioch Review, Black Warrior Review, Cimarron Review, Kenyon Review, Sycamore Review and elsewhere. One of his poems won the 2006 Pelleas Long Poem Contest sponsored by The Modern Review, and another was chosen to introduce the book Rio Grande, an anthology of prose including work by Larry McMurtry, John Reed, Americo Paredes, Woody Guthrie, Molly Ivins and others. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:22:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Pound etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Murat says it all very well. I would only add another little bit of historical context: that there are periods--some fairly recent--in which some people do see form and technique, not as neutral, but as political and cultural matters and attribute all kinds of bad politics and motives to those who don't write like they do. No more need be said. Mike Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) available at www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good bookstores. Survey of work at http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm Collaborations with the composer Ellen Fishman Johnson at http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:38:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: pound & heteroglossia -- and the radio broadcasts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There must, Tom, be an interesting story behind that discrepancy because on page 428 of the Greenwood Press edition, in appendix 3, doob says, "Now that the actual texts of almost all the broadcasts are available in this book...." It makes a person wonder if Doob wasn't shown all the transcripts. Robert H. Walker does mention in the foreword, dated Febr 1978, that the "Pound Literary Trustees" were reluctant to have the transcripts in print: "We applaud, then, the respect for a complete historic record which has allowed the Pound Literary Trustees to overcome an understandable reluctance toward seeing these scripts in print." (page x) In the last paragraph of doob's intro, he lists himself as one of the "Pound Literary Trustees." Doob writes, too, "Neither the Italian archives, for example, nor an examination of the papers at the Beinecke Library at Yale University have revealed why Pound ceased broadcasting between July 26, 1942, and February 18, 1943." It makes a person wonder if those broadcasts aren't "a missing 18 minutes." And if so, why. Gabe > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:12:29 -0600 > From: Gabriel Gudding > Subject: pound & heteroglossia -- and the radio broadcasts > > Mike Heller's take on polyglossia in EP is akin to Bakhtin's thoughts on > heteroglossia in novelized genres. > > Upshot is, at least in Bakhtinian terms, Mike Heller is more right, CB > less so: EP's work is not truly "polyvocal" in any fully Bakhtinian sense. > > Bakhtin formulates heteroglossia as NOT just about many voices. It's a > spectrum of many registers, a huge part of which is humor. > > Bakhtin provides a list of descriptors for what is heteroglossia, > insisting that heteroglossia is "permeated with laughter, humor, > elements of self-parody." Those are elements sorely lacking in ep > cantos. (This as found in "Epic and Novel: Toward a Methodology of the > Study of the Novel," as found in a few places, but I'm looking at is in > David Duff's edition of _Modern Genre Theory_). > > More importantly EP's cantos reinforce rather than revise literariness > and poeticalness -- and assert a national epic past and a national epic > distance. Most importantly, they are the speech (or "a" speech) of > official elite literary culture. They are not the speech of the "low," > which is what MB says is a great part of dialogic heteroglossia as he > formulates it. > > MB also insists that tragedy was always a polyglot genre and that > polyglossia always existed -- so merely containing many voices is NOT > itself some kind of structural radicalism. > > In short, /The Cantos/ are not poly- or heteroglossic. > > But Pound's *radio broadcasts* are. It's in the radio broadcasts -- as > texts -- that Pound becomes heteroglossic in a truly Bakhtinian sense. > (I've only read them, not listened to them). His sick humor -- racist, > murderous, paranoid, whackjobby, yet weirdly self-parodic -- really > comes to the fore. If you can consider the radio speeches "permeated > with laughter, humor, elements of self-parody," you can see them as more > dialogically polyglossic in a Bakhtinian sense. This coupled with the > fact that they are both oral and written "text." > > Those who've read /The Cantos/, especially /The Pisan Cantos/, and > who've not yet done so, might also read Leonard W. Doob's 1978 _Ezra > Pound Speaking: Radio Speeches of WWII_ by Greenwood Press. It contains, > as far as I know, the only collection in print of EP's war era speeches. > The collection is not quite exhaustive, but almost all of them are there. > > In appendix 4 Doob "in serious jest" describes the speeches as > "The Poor Man's Cantos." These are in some ways the real footnotes to > the Cantos, esp the Pisans. > > Doob's appendices are interesting. Charts provide rough plot of his > topics and types of persons/institutions mentioned. > > There is a 22 page glossary and index of names. > > It appears the only copies left new are hardbound. > > Gabe > -- > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:47:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Pound etc. In-Reply-To: <200802210122.m1L1MSw5016968@ms-smtp-03.rdc-nyc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Michael, I was making my comments about the basic neutrality of forms with complete awareness of what you are saying. I am glad you picked up on that point. Ciao, Murat On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Michael Heller wrote: > Murat says it all very well. I would only add another little bit of > historical context: that there are periods--some fairly recent--in > which some people do see form and technique, not as neutral, but as > political and cultural matters and attribute all kinds of bad > politics and motives to those who don't write like they do. No more > need be said. > > Mike > > Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and > Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) available at > www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good bookstores. Survey of > work at http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm Collaborations > with the composer Ellen Fishman Johnson at > http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:35:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I can't speak for Murat, of course, but I'd say that collage is just like all the other forms/genres: basically offensive unless well handled. Art is lying. It is a presentation of the false in a false context in order to try to produce a metaphoric or analogic truth. So, unless the thing is done elegantly and well, all you get is an awkward lie, which is, let's face it, pretty offensive. Collage itself has the added burden of being a collection of other people's lies, so the chances of getting the presentation-of-lies-to-tell-truth right are a good deal worse. The collagist is relying on viewers of the collage to be aware of the original sources of the material, and the original context of that material, together with the new context the collagist is presenting, so there is a lot more room for stumbling and failure, and there is, in fact, a lot more stumbling and failure. Marcus On 20 Feb 2008 at 12:12, Jim Andrews wrote: > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > democratic > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > collage > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, > opening > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the > only > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > political stance > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > impacts, in > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > flarf > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > collage (also > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > autonomous > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being > done) > > is deeply > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you > find > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that isn't > what you > mean. > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > exploitative > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue > rather > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > inherantly > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > do. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:17:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Evan Munday Subject: Reminder: David McGimpsey in LA - Feb. 22 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear Southern Californian friends, Just a quick reminder that the very funny and acclaimed poet David =20 McGimpsey will be in southern California this coming week, reviewing =20 sandwiches and reading from his great new book, Sitcom, filled with =20 sonnets about Suddenly Susan and Shania Twain. It should be a =20 fantastic night, if you can make it. FEBRUARY 22 - DAVID MCGIMPSEY IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA David McGimpsey, author of Sitcom, visits L.A. -- well, Santa Monica, =20= actually -- for an event at the Mudpuppy Reading Series. The featured =20= reading by the celebrated poet is followed by an open mic. The Mudpuppy Reading Series featuring David McGimpsey Friday, February 22, 2008 The Rapp Saloon, Hostelling International Bldg. 1436 2nd St. Santa Monica, CA 8:00 p.m. =91McGimpsey displays erudition, clever insights and a knack for the =20 wickedly funny wisecrack.=92 =96 The Washington Post =91[McGimpsey] finds the humanity hiding in the hilarity. This guy is =20= as funny as David Sedaris, and more inventive.=92 =96 The Ottawa Citizen 'It's poetry that should not work, but does, brilliantly. McGimpsey's =20= voice is so original and subversive that he is practically re-casting =20= the poetry mold, pushing the boundaries of literary acceptability, =20 and doing so without a hint of pretentiousness.' =96 Montreal Gazette http://www.chbooks.com/catalogue/index.php?ISBN=3D1552451887 Yours, Evan ------------------------------ Evan Munday Publicist Coach House Books 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 416.979.2217 evan@chbooks.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:07:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: <47BD29CC.900.4C3A744@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline this sort of silliness makes me want to just go kill myself tbh Marcus ;) On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 7:35 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > I can't speak for Murat, of course, but I'd say that collage is just like > all the > other forms/genres: basically offensive unless well handled. Art is lying. > It is a > presentation of the false in a false context in order to try to produce a > metaphoric or analogic truth. So, unless the thing is done elegantly and > well, > all you get is an awkward lie, which is, let's face it, pretty offensive. > > Collage itself has the added burden of being a collection of other > people's lies, > so the chances of getting the presentation-of-lies-to-tell-truth right are > a good > deal worse. The collagist is relying on viewers of the collage to be aware > of > the original sources of the material, and the original context of that > material, > together with the new context the collagist is presenting, so there is a > lot more > room for stumbling and failure, and there is, in fact, a lot more > stumbling and > failure. > > Marcus > > > On 20 Feb 2008 at 12:12, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > > democratic > > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > > collage > > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, > > opening > > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the > > only > > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > > political stance > > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > > impacts, in > > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > > flarf > > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > > collage (also > > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > > autonomous > > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being > > done) > > > is deeply > > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you > > find > > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that isn't > > what you > > mean. > > > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > > exploitative > > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue > > rather > > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > > inherantly > > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > > do. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:52:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: <47BD29CC.900.4C3A744@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Finding any art offensive is not only a slippery slope, it shows a very narrow perspective. I'm not saying all art is good. Much of it is secondrate or worse just by the definitions of these terms. But to be offended by anyone's art, unless it shows a murder or a rape that actually happened and was perpetrated in order to make the art, say, or something equally extreme like that, betrays a squeamishness that is a limitation of the critical faculty of the person being offended. I sometimes receive poetry that I don't like. But to say that I'm offended by it would be an overstatement. I feel much more offended by the bad politics of the current American regime and, for example, felt terribly offended by the Taliban's destruction of Bamiyan in Afghanistan some years ago. Things like that in the so-called real world are much more of an occasion for feeling offended than anything in the realms of the arts. As for Pound as a poet and collagist, the record of his collected works is mixed but none of it offends me. I might feel different about that if I were Jewish but I am not. Does a poet have the right to be or to have been wrong in some of his works? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Baraka's recent perpetuation of a false rumor about 9/11 first caused me to think much about this. But to deny a poet the right to be ever wrong smacks of perfectionism. No one I know of inside or outside the arts has achieved perfection. Regards, Tom Savage Marcus Bales wrote: I can't speak for Murat, of course, but I'd say that collage is just like all the other forms/genres: basically offensive unless well handled. Art is lying. It is a presentation of the false in a false context in order to try to produce a metaphoric or analogic truth. So, unless the thing is done elegantly and well, all you get is an awkward lie, which is, let's face it, pretty offensive. Collage itself has the added burden of being a collection of other people's lies, so the chances of getting the presentation-of-lies-to-tell-truth right are a good deal worse. The collagist is relying on viewers of the collage to be aware of the original sources of the material, and the original context of that material, together with the new context the collagist is presenting, so there is a lot more room for stumbling and failure, and there is, in fact, a lot more stumbling and failure. Marcus On 20 Feb 2008 at 12:12, Jim Andrews wrote: > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > democratic > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > collage > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, > opening > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the > only > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > political stance > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > impacts, in > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > flarf > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > collage (also > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > autonomous > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being > done) > > is deeply > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you > find > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that isn't > what you > mean. > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > exploitative > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue > rather > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > inherantly > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > do. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:56:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: <20080220.173837.1760.42.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree with you, mostly, Steve. Collage is freely creative for the most part. To call it exploitative because it takes already existing materials created by others is an exaggeration having possibly to do with an obsession with ownership which collaging rightly challenges, at least in my opinion. Regards, Tom Savage "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: i do alot of collage itis both exploitative and freely creative the exploitative quality is the ustilization of extant materials not one's own the freedom is in the making them into something wholey new there are 2 sides to this collaging of image and words (stealing/borrowing recontextualizing) possibly a worthy discussion enough with pound already too much for this illiterate to handle On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:12:02 -0800 Jim Andrews writes: > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > democratic > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > collage > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, > opening > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the > only > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > political stance > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > impacts, in > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > flarf > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > collage (also > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > autonomous > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being done) > > is deeply > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you > find > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that isn't > what you > mean. > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > exploitative > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue > rather > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > inherantly > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > do. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: rePound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VIVA COLLAGE On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:35:40 -0500 Marcus Bales writes: > I can't speak for Murat, of course, but I'd say that collage is just > like all the > other forms/genres: basically offensive unless well handled. Art is > lying. It is a > presentation of the false in a false context in order to try to > produce a > metaphoric or analogic truth. So, unless the thing is done elegantly > and well, > all you get is an awkward lie, which is, let's face it, pretty > offensive. > > Collage itself has the added burden of being a collection of other > people's lies, > so the chances of getting the presentation-of-lies-to-tell-truth > right are a good > deal worse. The collagist is relying on viewers of the collage to be > aware of > the original sources of the material, and the original context of > that material, > together with the new context the collagist is presenting, so there > is a lot more > room for stumbling and failure, and there is, in fact, a lot more > stumbling and > failure. > > Marcus > > > On 20 Feb 2008 at 12:12, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > > democratic > > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how > the > > collage > > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the > liberating, > > opening > > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly > the > > only > > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > > political stance > > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > > impacts, in > > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > > flarf > > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > > collage (also > > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > > autonomous > > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being > > done) > > > is deeply > > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like > you > > find > > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that > isn't > > what you > > mean. > > > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > > exploitative > > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case > issue > > rather > > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > > inherantly > > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > > do. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:52:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: rePound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit point well and badly taken tom since you are a good friend and claim to be a practicing buddhist so remember the old statement "you don' t have to be jewish to eat levy's rye bread" well doesn't that apply to anti-semitism, pound aside, byou don't have to be jewish to be against those who are anti-semites major problem in world you say "if i were jewish" as if it's ok to not be offended by not the ART but the sentiment behind the ART or statements because you are NOT a jew i love baraka, pound but cannot excuse they're possible, and as always with these horrors that cause so much pain in the world bad judgement, excesses of prejudice (which we all have and and have encountered) if i said i hate buddhists would that then bug you? but yes sure everyone has the right to be WRONG not just the poet tho the way poets act you'd think they think they're never WRONG does bush hitler stalin extremes of course have the right to be wrong when in their warped judgements they perhaps think they were / are right as pound no doubt did excuse a wrong? why who's right and who's wrong anyway? something for a buddhist to think about a talmudic buddhist perhaps...... On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:52:12 -0800 Thomas savage writes: > Finding any art offensive is not only a slippery slope, it shows a > very narrow perspective. I'm not saying all art is good. Much of > it is secondrate or worse just by the definitions of these terms. > But to be offended by anyone's art, unless it shows a murder or a > rape that actually happened and was perpetrated in order to make the > art, say, or something equally extreme like that, betrays a > squeamishness that is a limitation of the critical faculty of the > person being offended. I sometimes receive poetry that I don't > like. But to say that I'm offended by it would be an overstatement. > I feel much more offended by the bad politics of the current > American regime and, for example, felt terribly offended by the > Taliban's destruction of Bamiyan in Afghanistan some years ago. > Things like that in the so-called real world are much more of an > occasion for feeling offended than anything in the realms of the > arts. As for Pound as a poet and collagist, the record of his > collected > works is mixed but none of it offends me. I might feel different > about that if I were Jewish but I am not. Does a poet have the > right to be or to have been wrong in some of his works? Perhaps > yes, perhaps no. Baraka's recent perpetuation of a false rumor > about 9/11 first caused me to think much about this. But to deny a > poet the right to be ever wrong smacks of perfectionism. No one I > know of inside or outside the arts has achieved perfection. > Regards, Tom Savage > > Marcus Bales wrote: I can't speak for > Murat, of course, but I'd say that collage is just like all the > other forms/genres: basically offensive unless well handled. Art is > lying. It is a > presentation of the false in a false context in order to try to > produce a > metaphoric or analogic truth. So, unless the thing is done elegantly > and well, > all you get is an awkward lie, which is, let's face it, pretty > offensive. > > Collage itself has the added burden of being a collection of other > people's lies, > so the chances of getting the presentation-of-lies-to-tell-truth > right are a good > deal worse. The collagist is relying on viewers of the collage to be > aware of > the original sources of the material, and the original context of > that material, > together with the new context the collagist is presenting, so there > is a lot more > room for stumbling and failure, and there is, in fact, a lot more > stumbling and > failure. > > Marcus > > > On 20 Feb 2008 at 12:12, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > > democratic > > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > > collage > > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the > liberating, > > opening > > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly > the > > only > > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > > political stance > > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > > impacts, in > > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > > flarf > > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > > collage (also > > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > > autonomous > > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being > > done) > > > is deeply > > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you > > find > > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that > isn't > > what you > > mean. > > > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > > exploitative > > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue > > rather > > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > > inherantly > > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > > do. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:50:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents Punch Press/damn the caesars Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward ---------------- =20 Boog City presents =20 d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press =20 Punch Press/damn the caesars (Buffalo, N.Y.) =20 Tues. Feb. 26, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free =20 ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC =20 Event will be hosted by Punch Press/damn the caesars editor Richard Owens=20 =20 Featuring readings from =20 Richard Owens Kristin Prevallet Kyle Schlesinger Dale Smith =20 =20 and music from =20 The Great American Armadildo Face Problems Gang =20 There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. =20 Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum =20 ------ =20 **Punch Press/damn the caesars http://damnthecaesars.org/ =20 Punch Press is a machine press used for cutting and shaping metal. Established in 2005, Punch Press is a small press poetry imprint committed to supporting work that ignites and destructs. The mission is impossible. The work is affordable. This in a historical moment when nothing is more important than rethinking the possible. =20 In addition to various broadsides, ephemeral publications and the journal Damn the Caesars, books brought out by Punch Press include Brian Mornar=B9s Repatterning, John Phillips=B9 Soundless, and Dale Smith=B9s Susquehanna. =20 =20 *Overall Performer Bios* =20 **Richard Owens =20 Richard Owens edits Damn the Caesars, a journal of contemporary poetry and poetics published through his own Punch Press. His work has appeared in O Poss, Aufgabe, Big Bridge, Cipher Journal, Kadar Koli, and Origin (Sixth Series in memory of Cid Corman), among others. He lives, works, and studies in Buffalo, N.Y. =20 =20 **Kristin Prevallet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Prevallet =20 Kristin Prevallet is a poet, essayist, educator, and, most recently, the author of Shadow, Evidence, Intelligence (Factory School) and I, Afterlife: Essay in Mourning Time (Essay Press). She edited and introduced A Helen Ada= m Reader (National Poetry Foundation). She received a 2007 New York Foundation for the Arts fellowship in poetry and lives in Brooklyn, N.Y. =20 =20 **Kyle Schlesinger http://www.kyleschlesinger.com/ =20 Kyle Schlesinger=B9s most recent book of poems is Hello Helicopter. =20 =20 **Dale Smith http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Smith_%28poet%29 =20 Dale Smith edits O Poss! with Hoa Nguyen and Scott Pierce. He edited with Nguyen 10 issues of Skanky Possum and continues irregularly to publish Skanky Possum Books. His essays and reviews have appeared in First Intensity, Jacket, and elsewhere, and he writes for the online book industr= y monthly Bookslut, where his monthly column on poetry appears. His books include American Rambler (Thorp Springs), The Flood & The Garden (First Intensity), and, most recently, Black Stone (Effing). His newest book, Susquehanna, was published by Punch Press in January. He is a Ph.D. candidate in rhetoric and writing at the University of Texas at Austin. =20 =20 **The Great American Armadildo Face Problems Gang http://www.myspace.com/thegreatamericanarmadildofaceproblemsgang =20 The Great American Armadildo Face Problems Gang is a collective of artists and musicians from Orange County, N.Y. The work of John Cage, various Fluxu= s artists, Missing Foundations, Attila the Stockbroker, and John Cooper Clark informs their practice. =20 =20 ---- =20 Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues =20 Next event: Tues. March 25 Outside Voices (Brooklyn, N.Y.) =20 Release party for The Outside Voices 2008 Anthology of Younger Poets http://poetry2008.blogspot.com/ =20 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://www.welcometoboogcity.com T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:32:06 +0100 Reply-To: argotist@fsmail.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Big Bridge review of Carrier of the Seed Comments: To: British Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a review by Jake Berry of my poem 'Carrier of the Seed' at Big Bridge: http://www.bigbridge.org/REV-CAR.HTM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:49:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: WBAI - book reviewer?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you are in NYC and listen to WBAI, can you advise me b/c, if there is anyone at the station doing a program of interesting book reviews?? I cannot 'divine' such from looking at their programming on the web. Thanks, Stephen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:14:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Henry A. Lazer" Subject: discount offer - hank lazer - new book of essays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New from Omnidawn Publishing: Lyric & Spirit: Selected Essays 1996-2008 By Hank Lazer 348 pages (6 x 9 paper) ISBN: 978-1-890-650-32-2 Normally $19.95 Special Intro Price: $9.95 until 3/31/08 Free Shipping Within USA To order Lyric & Spirit: go to www.omnidawn.com/hlazer389 Lyric & Spirit -- the first compilation of essays by Hank Lazer following his ground-breaking and much revered two volume Opposing Poetries -- offers twelve years of incisive writing at the intersection of two of the more contentiously debated topics in current letters. Drawing on poetic traditions as seemingly disparate as Language writing and Buddhist poetry, Lazer pursues a way of reading that is rich in the music and spirit of the word, attuning readers to the pleasures and range of possibilities for innovative poetry. In a very accessible writing style, and with flashes of brilliance, Lazer explores and identifies new approaches to the lyric and to the writing of spiritual experience in American poetry of the past one hundred years. In this book of essays, interviews, reflections, and more, Lazer focuses on two topics central to the poetry of our time: the changing nature of beauty in the lyric and the necessity of finding new ways of embodying spirituality. By bringing a wide range of perspectives to his readings -- from the jazz of Monk and Coltrane to the philosophy of Heidegger and Derrida -- Lazer's essays inspire readers to enter into a renewed and renewing relationship with poetry. * And: Ahadada Books is pleased to present First Portions by Hank Lazer. First Portions is the second release in the Ahadada Books Online Chapbook series edited by Catherine Daly--it is our sixteenth online publication. You may download it by going to http://www.ahadadabooks.com/content/view/128/41/ * Hank Lazer has published 14 books of poetry, including The New Spirit (Singing Horse, 2005), Elegies & Vacations (Salt, 2004), and Days (Lavender Ink, 2002). With Charles Bernstein, he edits the Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series for the University of Alabama Press. -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:04:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: WBAI - book reviewer?? In-Reply-To: <166337.44586.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have to call them about something else anyway--I'll see what I can find out. Figure tomorrow or Monday. At 02:49 PM 2/21/2008, you wrote: >If you are in NYC and listen to WBAI, can you advise me b/c, if >there is anyone at the station doing a program of interesting book >reviews?? I cannot 'divine' such from looking at their programming on the web. > > Thanks, > > Stephen > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:44:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series double header / Experiments 18 & 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} DOUBLE HEADER *February 24 - Experiment #18: David Buuck & cris cheek *March 2 - Experiment #19: Kate Greenstreet & Jen Tynes at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Ave -- Chicago, IL close to Grand & Pulaski in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 http://www.spareroomchicago.org BYOB suggested donation $3 doors lock at 7:30pm wheelchair accessible with assistance ************************************************* Experiment #18: Time-Based Poetics 7pm Sunday, February 24th Featuring: David Buuck cris cheek A poetics off the page that takes time as its medium guest curated by Jennifer Scappettone DAVID BUUCK lives in Oakland and teaches at the San Francisco Art Institute. He is the co-founder of Tripwire, a poetics journal, and BARGE, the Bay Area Research Group in Enviro-aesthetics, and a Contributing Editor at Artweek. His poetry, prose, essays & criticism have been published in a variety of contexts; recent booklets include Ruts, Runts, Between Above & Below, and Paranoia Agent. In the last year he has performed in San Francisco, Santa Cruz, Los Angeles, Boston, and New York. CRIS CHEEK is a poet, book maker, sound artist, mixed-media practitioner and interdisciplinary performer, whose texts have been commissioned and shown locally and trans-locally, often in multiple versions using diverse media for their production and circulation. His most recent work is a full body of collaborations with Kirsten Lavers as TNWK, http://www.tnwk.net. His most recent publication is titled the church, the school, the beer (Critical Documents, 2007). ************************************************* Experiment #19: That’s Not The Way I Remember It 7pm Sunday, March 2nd Featuring: Kate Greenstreet Jen Tynes Two women. Two microphones. Two versions of the story. KATE GREENSTREET is the author of case sensitive (Ahsahta Press, 2006) and three chapbooks, Learning the Language (Etherdome Press, 2005), Rushes (above/ground press, 2007), and This is why I hurt you (Lame House Press, forthcoming). Her second book, The Last 4 Things, will be out from Ahsahta in 2009. For more information, visit http://www.kategreenstreet.com. JEN TYNES lives in Denver, Colorado, and edits horse less press. She is the author or co-author of the following books and chapbooks: Heron/Girlfriend (Coconut Books, forthcoming 2008), See Also Electric Light (Dancing Girl Press, 2007), The Ohio System (w/ Erika Howsare, Octopus Books, 2006), The End Of Rude Handles (Red Morning Press, 2005), and Found in Nature(horse less press, 2004). ************************************************* Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. STARTING April 19 events will be held at a new surprise location TBA! more info soon COMING UP: *Experiment #20: April 19 - Barrett Gordon, Matthew Klane, David Pavelich, Laura Sims, Kevin Thurston *Experiment #21: May 15 - Miranda Mellis & Sarah Rosenthal SUMMER/FALL 2008: Judith Goldman & Lily Robert-Foley Ira S. Murfin & Marisa Plumb Authors from the Encyclopedia Project, vol. 2 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:21:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project February In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, Things are good here at The Poetry Project. Come and join us at any or all of these events: Friday, February 22, 10 PM Landis Everson Memorial Please join us as we pay tribute to the life and poetry of Landis Everson. Readers will include Bill Berkson, Bill Corbett, John Hennessy, Matthew Henriksen, Katia Kapovich, Mark Lamoureux, Ben Mazer, Jason Zuzga, Mark Schorr, Brian Henry, Ethan Nosowsky, Stacy Szymaszek and Andrew Zawacki. Monday, February 25, 8 PM Roger Bonair-Agard & Suheir Hammad Roger Bonair-Agard is a native of Trinidad and Tobago, a Cave Canem fellow, and co-founder of the louderARTS Project. He is a two time National Poetry Slam Champion and co-author of Burning Down the House (Soft Skull Press 2000). His first solo-project, tarnish and masquerade, was published by Cypher Books in 2006. He is poet-in-residence at VisionIntoArt, an interdisciplinary artist collective out of NYC. He teaches and performs throughout the world, and lives in Brooklyn. Suheir Hammad is a 2007 Copeland Fellow at Amherst College. Her books are Born Palestinian, Born Black; Drops of This Story; and ZaatarDiva. Wednesday, February 27, 8 PM Jeffrey Jullich & Rod Smith Jeffrey Jullich was horoscope columnist for the magazine Vice and librettis= t for the opera American Lit: (Queer Theory) The Hawthorne-Melville Correspondence (premiered at American Opera Projects). His first book of poetry, Thine Instead Thank, was published by Harry Tankoos Books. He was editor of the journal Logopoeia. Rod Smith's most recent book is Deed, from The University of Iowa Press. He is also the author of Music or Honesty, Th= e Good House, Po=E8mes de L'araign=E9es, Protective Immediacy, and In Memory of M= y Theories. An audio CD, Fear the Sky, was released by Narrow House in 2005, and a chapbook, You B=EAte, is forthcoming from Interrupting Cow. He is currently edting, with Kaplan Harris and Peter Baker, The Selected Letters of Robert Creeley. Smith edits the journal Aerial, publishes Edge Books, an= d manages Bridge Street Books in Washington, DC. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:38:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: The Canceled Kolkata Book Fair MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friends: "BOOK FAIR CANCELED!" The Kolkata Book Fair in India is the largest book fair in the world with an annual attendance of 2.8 million people.The festival started in 1976 and was organized by the Publishers & Booksellers Guild. Every year, a focal theme country is given a large pavilion to showcase its countries' books and publishers. The United States was selected for 2008 and US Kolkata Literary Exchange (USKLE) was created to organize this event with the Consulate General of the United States of America in Kolkata. The bookfair was supposed to be held from January 30 to February 10, 2008, but it was BANNED! In the aftermath of the cancellation of the Kolkata Book Fair by the High Court, USKLE (US-Kolkata Literary Exchange), the organization sponsoring the visit to India by 15 American writers including Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Yusef Komunyakaa, revised it's schedule of events. A number of the American readings, seminars, and presentations were hosted by the Bangla Akademi with additional events around town including a poetry jam session with Native American poet Joy Harjo and Bob Holman from New York at the Park Hotel on January 31, 2008 and a special presentationon "Give Peace a Chance" at the Bengal Club on February 4, 2008 hosted by Subodh Sarkar and Mallika Sengupta. Yusef Komunyakaa gave a special reading accompanied by a Baul singer on February 8, 2008 also at the Park Hotel. USKLE delegation members Goutam Datta, Ram Devineni, and Catherine Fletcher worked closely with the Publishers and Booksellers Guild as well as Sunil Gangopadhyay, Subodh Sarkar, and Mallika Sengupta and the Bengali literary community to create the amended program. Despite the setbacks, the American delegation announced the release of its commemorative anthology, A Mingling of Waters, at the symbolic opening of the Book Fair at Town Hall. Copies were presented to West Bengal's Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee by the delegation and its publisher, Supernova, and were on sale at the Bangla Akademi. The delegation used the retooled schedule as an opportunity for its writers to get to know the city of Kolkata, its writers, and its residents more intimately. http://www.rattapallax.com/india.htm For those that sent in books, we left them in India and they will be sold/displayed at the separate book fair in Kolkata in March 2008. ----------------- NEW RELEASE Rattapallax DVD (issue 15) is a fusion between contemporary writing and film. Featured on the DVD magazine are works by Antonello Faretta, Guilherme Marcondes, Taatske Pieterson, Julian Gray, Kylie Hibbert, Avi Dabach, Abbas Saffari, Caecilia Tripp, Eugene Ostashevsky, Ima Aikio & Jason Lam. Special features on Billy Collins, John Giorno Yehuda Amichai, and the death of William Burroughs; award winning animated short films based on poems by William Blake and Sylvia Plath; and a hip-hop rendition of Gertrude Stein's poems by Jean Grae and DJ Spooky. Showcase of the winners from the Zebra Poetry Film Festival in Berlin. Buy for ONLY $6! The DVD is sold at St. Mark's Bookshop, 31 Third Ave., NYC (near Astor Place).\ http://www.rattapallax.com/rattapallax15_issue.htm Cheers Ram Devineni Rattapallax Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:53:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: re Pound & a great many Pound videos at my blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline A couple days ago i put a great many videos of Pound at my blog, including one of the radio broadcasts. there are also some related videos of Homages to Pound from various people in various media, Mussolini's last speech, Mussolini and Hitler, but mostly its is Pound reading-- as well as my favorite one of them all-- Pasolini reading to Pound in Italian, as Pound sits listening. http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com I think if one reads the definition of the fasces given below, one has an idea of a possible different approach to the structure of the Cantos. A binding together of the elements, the rods, to the axe (axis) to give the "strength in unity." I've been writing and thinking about this in terms of Pound's ventriloquism, uses of masks (influence of the Greek and Noh theaters) and his great lifelong interest in Confucian Authoritarianism as well as the fascist period which developed later in his life. The issue of treason is very important--Pound was charged indicted and faced prison, if not having been adjudged mentally incompetent to stand trial so to speak. The treason comes from his KNOWING BETTER WHAT WAS GOOD FOR AMERICA--which he of course had left very long ago. The ventriloquism and masks are related with Pound's "personae," in which the "documentary" aspects of his materials are transformed in to an Epic Docu-Drama, a "soap opera" of serial Cantos,--(i don't mean soap opera disparagingly)- Montage, whose greatest theoretican and practitioner may still well be the Jewish Gay Soviet Marxist Sergei Eisenstein, was also greatly influenced by the Chinese ideogram, which Eisenstein studied in some detail and writes of in his essays. The equating of montage with being "less liberatory" as it were than collage I think would greatly surprise Eisenstein. Also Pound is not as "Euro-centric" at all as Bernstein makes out--indeed the new association with Chinese poetry begun by Bernstein and Perloff is an example of over a century's such studies, interests, translations, exchanges among Chinese and American writers and writing in which Pound played a large role in the West. (And one might ask what sorts of conflicts this new association raises with China's imprisoning so many poets and artists--if their civil and human rights are or not a question in this--) It is not the elements in the work which make it fascist or not, but the manner in which Pound personally binds them into fasces of the Cantos. This is why so many poets the world over have been influenced and inspired by Pound in spite of his personal politics and prejudices--they have learned from him without having Pound's drive to become a Dictator, the "Great Communicator" or "Mr Know-it-All" dictating "poetry and public policy" to the masses. The fascism of Pound was defeated, he was charged with treason and rather than being embraced due to his fascism, shunned by great many readers and writers the world over for this. What has gained him his recognition is his contributions to writing--as Murat pointed out, this list would not exist without Pound's work. Pound's sense of having failed with the Cantos in the sense of their not ultimately cohering is something learned by a great deal of Twentieth Century efforts towards creating a "Total Work." Not even Einstein was able to realize the Einsteinian Unified Field Theory. This is a fascist era in the US, and rather than denying fascism as it operates in a work or is found in groups and persons, one needs to study this, in order to more clearly see and hear the fascism all around one. The radio broadcasts of Pound are a prototype of Talk Radio and cable news and the Memri disinformation and censored newspapers. Propaganda is so prevalent it becomes invisible, taken for "the way things really are" rather than for the manner which they have been designed to appear. Pretty much most of the discourse one hears and sees and reads is in varying degrees directed and controled by these voices, images, words, discourses all round one, even in the ways one may imagine one is "resisting" or embracing things which announce themselves being "oppositional the unquestioning acceptance of Authority is disturbing. How many "natural" thoughts and responses are not the result of a lifetime of training? How many words does one read and silently nod in agreement without really wondering what they may mean as they are being used? How does this function to create every more conformity and acquiesence to Authority, in every area of life? "Question Authority" becomes ever more displaced by "don't question Authority"-- and questions to do with poetry and politics as with everything else become reduced, as Orwell predicted, to ever smaller vocabularies of catch phrases and doublespeak. here are definitions from Paxton, found at Wikipedia, followed by the quote from Leonard Peltier i used in a letter before. I think what he is addressing is what Naomi Wolff also does in The End of America Letter to a Young Patriot--how much these times are following very closely the rise of Nazi Germany and the compliance of the citizenry and government as their rights are systemically taken away and their society is turned into nothing more than a War Machine. The term fascismo was coined by the Italian Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini and Hegelian philosopher Giovanni Gentile. It is derived from the Italian word fascio, which means "bundle" or "union",[9] and from the Latin word fasces. The fasces, which consisted of a bundle of rods tied around an axe, were an ancient Roman symbol of the authority of the civic magistrates, and the symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is difficult to break. It is also strongly associated with the fascist militia "fasci italiani di combattimento" ("League of Combat")A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites,\ abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion Paxton further defines fascism's essence as: ...a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one's group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts ; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign `contamination." The government under pretext of security and progress liberated us from our land, resources, culture, dignity and future. They violated every treaty they ever made with us. I use the word "liberated" loosely and sarcastically, in the same vein that I view the use of the words "collateral damage" when they kill innocent men, women and children. They describe people defending their homelands as terrorists, savages and hostiles . . . My words reach out to the non-Indian: Look now before it is too late=97see what is being done to others in your name and see what destruction you sanction when you say nothing. =97Leonard Peltier, Annual Message January 2004 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:55:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Almodovar: A Poet=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92s?= Life on Film: Marcos Ana A nti Fascist Spent 23 Years in Franco's Prisons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://poetry.about.com/b/2008/02/20/a-poets-life-on-film-marcos-ana.htm --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:32:52 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: A<47BD29CC.900.4C3A744@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't speak for Gabe, but your 'offensive' (ethically off-set by elegance v awkward) provides an art-for-art's aestheticism to set beside 'abomination' (ethically off-set by sociology), albeit a rather under-nourished companion.=20 On the matter of collage, Bernstein's position is being under-read here, both as regards his argument in 'Pounding Fascism' about collage and the Cantos, and about the meaning of form. Speaking for Bernstein, let me quote from his 'Revenge of the Poet-critic' in MY WAY: =20 "You can't fully critique the dominant culture if you are confined to the forms through which it reproduces itself, not because hegemonic forms are compromised 'in themselves' but because their criticality has been commanderred. There is no wholly intrinsic meaning to any form, nor are there a priori superior forms. Devices and techniques--the tools and the styles of the past--shift in meaning and value over time, requiring continuing reassessment. Yet forms do have extrinsic, social meanings that are forged through a contestation of values from which it is impossible to withhold judgement" (p.4) Cheers, Wystan =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales Sent: Friday, 22 February 2008 1:36 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: rePound I can't speak for Murat, of course, but I'd say that collage is just like all the other forms/genres: basically offensive unless well handled. Art is lying. It is a presentation of the false in a false context in order to try to produce a metaphoric or analogic truth. So, unless the thing is done elegantly and well, all you get is an awkward lie, which is, let's face it, pretty offensive. Collage itself has the added burden of being a collection of other people's lies, so the chances of getting the presentation-of-lies-to-tell-truth right are a good deal worse. The collagist is relying on viewers of the collage to be aware of the original sources of the material, and the original context of that material, together with the new context the collagist is presenting, so there is a lot more room for stumbling and failure, and there is, in fact, a lot more stumbling and failure.=20 Marcus On 20 Feb 2008 at 12:12, Jim Andrews wrote: > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > democratic > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > collage > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, > opening > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the > only > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a=20 > > political stance per se. It can function very differently, with=20 > > different social impacts, in the hands of different poets. Let me=20 > > give a recent example: the > flarf > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for=20 > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of=20 > > collage (also quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references=20 > > from their > autonomous > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being > done) > > is deeply > > exploitative, offensive to me. >=20 > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you=20 > find collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that=20 > isn't what you mean. >=20 > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be=20 > exploitative and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a=20 > case-by-case issue rather than being able to tag an entire genre or=20 > method (or whatever) as inherantly exploitative and offensive. I=20 > expect this isn't what you meant to do. >=20 > ja > http://vispo.com >=20 >=20 > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:17:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: SCOTT HOWARD Subject: No Strangers Here Today/NYC MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE > NO STRANGERS HERE TODAY Feb 29, March 1, 2 > > Please join dancer/writer, Susan Banyas & jazz composer, David Ornette > Cherry at LaMaMa E.T.C. > Feb. 29, March l, 2 for a performance that weaves the epic story of the > abolitionist movement, personal family documents dating back to the Civil > War, and a lively delivery of movement, storytelling, and music. > > "No Strangers Here Today" was a coded message in the diary of Elizabeth > Edwards, a Quaker farmwoman in southern Ohio, whose family was a link in = the > clandestine, bi-racial resistance movement, known as the Underground > Railroad. Elizabeth=B9s great-great grandaughter, Susan Banyas & David > Ornette Cherry created this collaboration through a generous commission > from the Library Foundation of Los Angeles & the Regional Arts and Cultur= e > Council of Portland, Oregon. This important American history is inspired= by > the activist spirit and on-going networks of connection. > > =B3...a stirring portrait of abolitionist effort and illuminating morally= and > historically.=B2 --Marty Hughley, The Oregonian > > =B3 expertly performed, and should, I would argue, become an essential > contribution to North American self-understanding=8A. Banyas has created > something of rare importance here and Cherry=B9s soundscape is worth the > ticket price on its own.=B2 -- Zaph Mann, Nonstarvingartists.c= om > > > Photos: Edwards Farm, Elizabeth Edwards, seated Underground > Road/Highland County, Edwards farm in distance > > http://strangers.scatter.com > > Tickets & Times: http://www.lamama.org > Thanks. We hope to see you at LaMaMa! > Susan & David > http://www.susanbanyas.com > http://www.davidornettecherry.com > > > > Also in NYC March 14th... > > Susan Banyas, dancer-writer & David Ornette Cherry, jazz composer, team u= p > to perform excerpts from The Hillsboro Story as a movement monologue with > live music, directed by choreographer, Gregg Bielemeier. The Hillsboro > Story =AD a non-fiction book-in-progress -- opens in Hillsboro, Ohio on J= uly > 5, 1954 when the =B3colored=B2 elementary school went up in flames. The = fire > sparked a =B3school fight=B2 led by five African American mothers that be= came > the first test case for the Brown v. Board of Education decision (May, 19= 54) > in the North. Ms. Banyas was in the third grade, and the memory of those > times sparked this cultural detective story --a lively mix of voices, > images, and narration backed by an evocative sound score by David Ornette > Cherry. > > Excerpts from The Hillsboro Story will be performed at Columbia > University/NYC on March 14, sponsored by Oral History in the Mid-Atlantic > Region, the Columbia University Oral History Research Office & the New Yo= rk > Public Library for the Performing Arts. http://www.ohmar.org > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:11:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: WBAI - book reviewer?? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080221170328.0683b960@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Mark. S Mark Weiss wrote: I have to call them about something else anyway--I'll see what I can find out. Figure tomorrow or Monday. At 02:49 PM 2/21/2008, you wrote: >If you are in NYC and listen to WBAI, can you advise me b/c, if >there is anyone at the station doing a program of interesting book >reviews?? I cannot 'divine' such from looking at their programming on the web. > > Thanks, > > Stephen > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:59:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Design and the Elastic Mind "The Soul in the New Machines"--- Design - Review - New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/arts/design/22elas.html?ref=arts --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amanda Earl Subject: Re: Design and the Elastic Mind "The Soul in the New Machines"--- Design - Review - New York Times In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed this is marvelous, thank you! Amanda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:28:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In Case We Forgot -- http://www.amyking.org/blog ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 07:44:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: <20080221.120606.184.24.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All this is fine, Steve. But one example of poetic tolerance, if I may call it that, that I've been meaning to add to this discussion, I will do so here. I'm gay. Generally, I'm deeply offended by anti-gay statements by people. Thomas Hart Benton was well-known for making these statements. Nevertheless, I have a print of one of his paintings in my kitchen. I decided not to take it down even after I found out about Benton's verbal gay-bashing. Of course, it's not really present in his work so this is different slightly. Nevertheless, I like the work too much to take it down. The same goes for Pound. I love too much of his poetry to decry it even though I realize that some of it contains his anti-Semitic sentiments. As for anti-Buddhist sentiments, I have encountered that in some pseudo-hip, wiseguy poetry of the present moment. I tend to avoid poetry readings where I know or suspect I will hear attacks on the dharma based on what I have already heard. Criticisms of the way Buddhism is practiced by some people are another matter. I find those interesting sometimes. In the latest Tricycle, a Buddhist magazine to which I subscribe, Phillip Glass, one of the editors of the magazine, takes American Buddhists to task for being upper middle class dilletantes and asks:"How many Buddhists do you know who would take a vow of poverty?" I've been thinking a lot about this, too. Of course he was comparing well-off American Buddhists to Gandhi, who wasn't a Buddhist. Still, I take criticisms of Buddhism into account and consider them if they are intelligent. Simple attacks, I deflect and forget about as soon as I can. Regards, Tom Savage "steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: point well and badly taken tom since you are a good friend and claim to be a practicing buddhist so remember the old statement "you don' t have to be jewish to eat levy's rye bread" well doesn't that apply to anti-semitism, pound aside, byou don't have to be jewish to be against those who are anti-semites major problem in world you say "if i were jewish" as if it's ok to not be offended by not the ART but the sentiment behind the ART or statements because you are NOT a jew i love baraka, pound but cannot excuse they're possible, and as always with these horrors that cause so much pain in the world bad judgement, excesses of prejudice (which we all have and and have encountered) if i said i hate buddhists would that then bug you? but yes sure everyone has the right to be WRONG not just the poet tho the way poets act you'd think they think they're never WRONG does bush hitler stalin extremes of course have the right to be wrong when in their warped judgements they perhaps think they were / are right as pound no doubt did excuse a wrong? why who's right and who's wrong anyway? something for a buddhist to think about a talmudic buddhist perhaps...... On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:52:12 -0800 Thomas savage writes: > Finding any art offensive is not only a slippery slope, it shows a > very narrow perspective. I'm not saying all art is good. Much of > it is secondrate or worse just by the definitions of these terms. > But to be offended by anyone's art, unless it shows a murder or a > rape that actually happened and was perpetrated in order to make the > art, say, or something equally extreme like that, betrays a > squeamishness that is a limitation of the critical faculty of the > person being offended. I sometimes receive poetry that I don't > like. But to say that I'm offended by it would be an overstatement. > I feel much more offended by the bad politics of the current > American regime and, for example, felt terribly offended by the > Taliban's destruction of Bamiyan in Afghanistan some years ago. > Things like that in the so-called real world are much more of an > occasion for feeling offended than anything in the realms of the > arts. As for Pound as a poet and collagist, the record of his > collected > works is mixed but none of it offends me. I might feel different > about that if I were Jewish but I am not. Does a poet have the > right to be or to have been wrong in some of his works? Perhaps > yes, perhaps no. Baraka's recent perpetuation of a false rumor > about 9/11 first caused me to think much about this. But to deny a > poet the right to be ever wrong smacks of perfectionism. No one I > know of inside or outside the arts has achieved perfection. > Regards, Tom Savage > > Marcus Bales wrote: I can't speak for > Murat, of course, but I'd say that collage is just like all the > other forms/genres: basically offensive unless well handled. Art is > lying. It is a > presentation of the false in a false context in order to try to > produce a > metaphoric or analogic truth. So, unless the thing is done elegantly > and well, > all you get is an awkward lie, which is, let's face it, pretty > offensive. > > Collage itself has the added burden of being a collection of other > people's lies, > so the chances of getting the presentation-of-lies-to-tell-truth > right are a good > deal worse. The collagist is relying on viewers of the collage to be > aware of > the original sources of the material, and the original context of > that material, > together with the new context the collagist is presenting, so there > is a lot more > room for stumbling and failure, and there is, in fact, a lot more > stumbling and > failure. > > Marcus > > > On 20 Feb 2008 at 12:12, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > > democratic > > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > > collage > > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the > liberating, > > opening > > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly > the > > only > > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > > political stance > > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > > impacts, in > > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > > flarf > > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > > collage (also > > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > > autonomous > > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being > > done) > > > is deeply > > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you > > find > > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that > isn't > > what you > > mean. > > > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > > exploitative > > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue > > rather > > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > > inherantly > > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > > do. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: new film in the works on life of poet Marcos Ana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Poetry was another weapon to fight for freedom." --Marcos Ana Pedro Almodovar is now making a film about the life of poet Marcos Ana. Should be amazing! Below is a paragraph from Elizabeth Nash's article recently published in Madrid. To all those who fight censorship! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com Marcos Ana, now 88, was 19 when General Francisco Franco had him thrown in jail in 1939. As a political inmate who had fought against Franco's victorious troops during the Spanish Civil War, Ana was tortured, shunted from prison to prison and managed to avoid two death sentences before he emerged, bewildered to the point of nausea, a free man in 1961. He was 41 but retained the desires of innocent youth. The film, which will be a world away from Almodovar's habitual high-octane cinema, is based on Ana's autobiography Tell Me What A Tree Looks Like, published in September. Almodovar secured the rights to the book last week. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:39:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy k Subject: Pound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yahoo is not releasing the message below, so I'm re-sending from this account. Apologies if you receive this more than once ... ~~ No more need be said? It's all settled now, and still, I wonder -- Form, which I understand evolves from a group of people trying to say things another way and usually bears out political implications -- a way that gives voice to their experience or an attempt to (simplistically said w apologies) say something apart from or new to the status quo -- can later be divorced from its content (i.e. the overt and/or implied political matters)? So when I decide to rap my poems (sans content about the urban African American experience), I will in no way evoke the associations and political implications from which that form was born and used? I will only be conjuring the 'unpolitical' or "neutral" aesthetics associated with that use? The form may not "contain a political stance, per se", but it certainly carries political weight and implications that people associate with the form itself. Remove its content, the form still has origins and uses that it cannot be "cleansed" of simply by removing overt content. As for Pound using collage, the implication is not only the "opening" Murat refers to below, but also, that by employing it, Pound is betraying his own desire for the Fascist ideal of one unified authoritarian voice. And here we are going in circles .... Amy On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Michael Heller wrote: > Murat says it all very well. I would only add another little bit of > historical context: that there are periods--some fairly recent--in > which some people do see form and technique, not as neutral, but as > political and cultural matters and attribute all kinds of bad > politics and motives to those who don't write like they do. No more > need be said. > > Mike Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:19:48 -0500 From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: rePound As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically democratic (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the collage structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the liberating, opening impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly the only thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a political stance per se. It can function very differently, with different social impacts, in the hands of different poets. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:01:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Giffin Subject: New: Physical Poets Home Library Volume 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Volume 2 of the Physical Poets is available for a mere $5.00 (shipping included). This issue is edited by Mathew Timmons and Harold Abramowitz and features work by Jane Sprague, Joseph Mosconi, Stan Apps, Amanda Ackerman, along wit= h work from the editors. Visit http://physicalpoetry.blogspot.com to order. =97Lawrence Giffin, series editor The Physical Poets Home Library presents the work of various writing communities through autonomously edited collections of poetry. Each volume is collectively edited by members of the featured community to be published and distributed by Lil' Norton. All inquiries can be made to physpo [you ge= t the picture] gmail [etc] com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:07:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: rePound In-Reply-To: <756558.26054.qm@web31105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Benton was at least equal-opportunity hateful. He was antisemitic and racist as well, part of an attack on the East Coast art establishment as he knew it. How much of this was a pose adopted when he switched from abstraction (he was pretty good) to storytelling is anybody's guess, but it didn't hurt his career. Mark At 10:44 AM 2/22/2008, Thomas savage wrote: >All this is fine, Steve. But one example of poetic tolerance, if I >may call it that, that I've been meaning to add to this discussion, >I will do so here. I'm gay. Generally, I'm deeply offended by >anti-gay statements by people. Thomas Hart Benton was well-known >for making these statements. Nevertheless, I have a print of one of >his paintings in my kitchen. I decided not to take it down even >after I found out about Benton's verbal gay-bashing. Of course, >it's not really present in his work so this is different >slightly. Nevertheless, I like the work too much to take it >down. The same goes for Pound. I love too much of his poetry to >decry it even though I realize that some of it contains his >anti-Semitic sentiments. As for anti-Buddhist sentiments, I have >encountered that in some pseudo-hip, wiseguy poetry of the present >moment. I tend to avoid poetry readings where I know or suspect I >will hear attacks on the dharma based on what I have already heard. Criticisms > of the way Buddhism is practiced by some people are another > matter. I find those interesting sometimes. In the latest > Tricycle, a Buddhist magazine to which I subscribe, Phillip Glass, > one of the editors of the magazine, takes American Buddhists to > task for being upper middle class dilletantes and asks:"How many > Buddhists do you know who would take a vow of poverty?" I've been > thinking a lot about this, too. Of course he was comparing > well-off American Buddhists to Gandhi, who wasn't a > Buddhist. Still, I take criticisms of Buddhism into account and > consider them if they are intelligent. Simple attacks, I deflect > and forget about as soon as I can. Regards, Tom Savage > >"steve d. dalachinsky" wrote: point well and >badly taken tom since you are a good friend and claim to >be a practicing buddhist > >so remember the old statement "you don' t have to be jewish to eat levy's >rye bread" >well doesn't that apply to anti-semitism, pound aside, byou don't have to >be jewish to be against those who are anti-semites >major problem in world you say "if i were jewish" >as if it's ok to not be offended by not the ART but the sentiment >behind the ART or statements >because you are NOT a jew >i love baraka, pound but cannot excuse they're possible, and as always >with these horrors >that cause so much pain in the world bad judgement, excesses of prejudice > >(which we all have and and have encountered) >if i said i hate buddhists would that then bug you? >but yes sure everyone has the right to be WRONG not just the poet >tho the way poets act you'd think they think they're never WRONG >does bush hitler stalin extremes of course have the right to be wrong >when in their warped judgements >they perhaps think they were / are right as pound no doubt did >excuse a wrong? why who's right and who's wrong anyway? something for >a buddhist to think about >a talmudic buddhist perhaps...... > > >On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:52:12 -0800 Thomas savage >writes: > > Finding any art offensive is not only a slippery slope, it shows a > > very narrow perspective. I'm not saying all art is good. Much of > > it is secondrate or worse just by the definitions of these terms. > > But to be offended by anyone's art, unless it shows a murder or a > > rape that actually happened and was perpetrated in order to make the > > art, say, or something equally extreme like that, betrays a > > squeamishness that is a limitation of the critical faculty of the > > person being offended. I sometimes receive poetry that I don't > > like. But to say that I'm offended by it would be an overstatement. > > I feel much more offended by the bad politics of the current > > American regime and, for example, felt terribly offended by the > > Taliban's destruction of Bamiyan in Afghanistan some years ago. > > Things like that in the so-called real world are much more of an > > occasion for feeling offended than anything in the realms of the > > arts. As for Pound as a poet and collagist, the record of his > > collected > > works is mixed but none of it offends me. I might feel different > > about that if I were Jewish but I am not. Does a poet have the > > right to be or to have been wrong in some of his works? Perhaps > > yes, perhaps no. Baraka's recent perpetuation of a false rumor > > about 9/11 first caused me to think much about this. But to deny a > > poet the right to be ever wrong smacks of perfectionism. No one I > > know of inside or outside the arts has achieved perfection. > > Regards, Tom Savage > > > > Marcus Bales wrote: I can't speak for > > Murat, of course, but I'd say that collage is just like all the > > other forms/genres: basically offensive unless well handled. Art is > > lying. It is a > > presentation of the false in a false context in order to try to > > produce a > > metaphoric or analogic truth. So, unless the thing is done elegantly > > and well, > > all you get is an awkward lie, which is, let's face it, pretty > > offensive. > > > > Collage itself has the added burden of being a collection of other > > people's lies, > > so the chances of getting the presentation-of-lies-to-tell-truth > > right are a good > > deal worse. The collagist is relying on viewers of the collage to be > > aware of > > the original sources of the material, and the original context of > > that material, > > together with the new context the collagist is presenting, so there > > is a lot more > > room for stumbling and failure, and there is, in fact, a lot more > > stumbling and > > failure. > > > > Marcus > > > > > > On 20 Feb 2008 at 12:12, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > > > As for Charles's claim that the collage structure is basically > > > democratic > > > > (therefore, as a creator Pound not a fascist): I can see how the > > > collage > > > > structure of *The Cantos* has something to do with the > > liberating, > > > opening > > > > impact of Pound as a poet, though I do not thing it is nearly > > the > > > only > > > > thing. But I do not think a poetic form does, can contain a > > > > political stance > > > > per se. It can function very differently, with different social > > > > impacts, in > > > > the hands of different poets. Let me give a recent example: the > > > flarf > > > > practice of harvesting words and references from the web for > > > > ironical/poetical purposes is utterly within the framework of > > > > collage (also > > > > quite Poundian). But this decoupling of references from their > > > autonomous > > > > place and existence (withlittle awarness that this is being > > > done) > > > > is deeply > > > > exploitative, offensive to me. > > > > > > Can you please be more specific, Murat? It sounds sort of like you > > > find > > > collage in general exploitative and offenseive. I expect that > > isn't > > > what you > > > mean. > > > > > > Certainly collage (whether visual, wordular, or sonic) *can* be > > > exploitative > > > and offensive. But it seems to me necessarily a case-by-case issue > > > rather > > > than being able to tag an entire genre or method (or whatever) as > > > inherantly > > > exploitative and offensive. I expect this isn't what you meant to > > > do. > > > > > > ja > > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: > > > 2/20/2008 10:26 AM > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:01:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Technical: Two possible glitches ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 1. If you attempt to post to the list from a Yahoo account and your signature contains html code (a website address), your email may be rejected directly by the server. Make sure you receive an automated reply from the listserve a few minutes after you post; otherwise, assume that the listserve has rejected your reply. It seems to read these signatures, sometimes, as an attachment, and attachments cannot be sent to the list. 2. When I switched over to the updated Yahoo mail viewer, the updated spam filter began filtering many listserve emails into my Spam box. Simply look in your Spam box, and if you locate any listserve posts, mark them as "Not Spam". They will then be moved to your Inbox, and Yahoo will begin to send new Poetics posts to your Inbox. Thanks, Amy _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog Faculty Page http://faculty.ncc.edu/kinga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:38:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Westcott Subject: Zizek Kicks Off Left Forum '08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Verso Books, Brecht Forum and Left Forum present: "RESIST, ATTACK, UNDERMINE: WHERE ARE WE 40 YEARS AFTER '68?" Slavoj Zizek on the state of the Left today March 11, 2008 - 7pm; tickets on sale at 6:30 pm CUNY Graduate Center, Proshansky Auditorium, 365 5th Avenue (corner of =20 34th street) Open to the public (Sliding scale admission: $6/$10/$15) Slajov ?i?ek?s provocative prose has challenged a generation of =20 activists and intellectuals. Now the famed gadfly of the left will =20 make a major New York City appearance on March 11th at the CUNY =20 Graduate Center. ?i?ek's talk ?RESIST, ATTACK, UNDERMINE... WHERE ARE =20 WE 40 YEARS AFTER '68?? will open this year?s Left Forum conference, =20 the largest gathering in North America of the US and international Left. Slavoj ?i?ek is today's most controversial public intellectual. His =20 work traverses the fields of philosophy, psychoanalysis, theology, =20 history and political theory, taking in film, popular culture, =20 literature and jokes?all to provide acute analyses of the complexities =20 of contemporary ideology as well as a serious and sophisticated =20 philosophy. Called the ?Elvis of cultural theory? and the ?greatest =20 intellectual high since anti-Oedipus? his genre bending style has him =20 writing everything from reflections on Lenin's polemics to Levis blue =20 jeans ads. ?i?ek?s work his appeared in the New York Times, New =20 Yorker, the Guardian as well as Astra Taylor's feature length film =20 ?i?ek!. He is a professor at the European Graduate School, =20 International Director of the Birkbeck Institute for the Humanities, =20 Birkbeck College, University of London, and a senior researcher at the =20 Institute of Sociology, University of Ljubljana, Slovenia. The author =20 of over 30 books, his forthcoming In Defense of Lost Causes will be =20 published by Verso Books in June 2008. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:21:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Landmark Massachusetts Building Where Wharton Wrote Faces Foreclosure - New York Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/books/23moun.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin --- sad news-- wharton was one of the great writers of new york city's history activist with medical groups in ww1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:06:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donna Kuhn Subject: pound Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed this is different than if someone said re. gay bashing, i might mind if i were gay but i'm not (so i dont care.)http://www.flickr.com/ photos/donnakuhn >> From: Thomas savage >> Subject: Re: ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 07:44:31 -0800 >> From: Thomas savage >> Subject: Re: rePound >> >> All this is fine, Steve. But one example of poetic tolerance, if I >> may call it that, that I've been meaning to add to this discussion, >> I will do so here. I'm gay. Generally, I'm deeply offended by >> anti-gay statements by people. Thomas Hart Benton was well-known >> for making these statements. Nevertheless, I have a print of one >> of his paintings in my kitchen. I decided not to take it down even >> after I found out about Benton's verbal gay-bashing. Of course, >> it's not really present in his work so this is different slightly. >> Nevertheless, I like the work too much to take it down. The same >> goes for Pound. I love too much of his poetry to decry it even >> though I realize that some of it contains his anti-Semitic >> sentiments. As for anti-Buddhist sentiments, I have encountered >> that in some pseudo-hip, wiseguy poetry of the present moment. I >> tend to avoid poetry readings where I know or suspect I will hear >> attacks on the dharma based on what I have already heard. Criticisms >> of the way Buddhism is practiced by some people are another >> matter. I find those interesting sometimes. In the latest >> Tricycle, a Buddhist magazine to which I subscribe, Phillip Glass, >> one of the editors of the magazine, takes American Buddhists to >> task for being upper middle class dilletantes and asks:"How many >> Buddhists do you know who would take a vow of poverty?" I've been >> thinking a lot about this, too. Of course he was comparing well- >> off American Buddhists to Gandhi, who wasn't a Buddhist. Still, I >> take criticisms of Buddhism into account and consider them if they >> are intelligent. Simple attacks, I deflect and forget about as >> soon as I can. Regards, Tom Savage >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:12:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Chan Subject: Poetry Sz: demystifying mental illness, Issue 25 now online Comments: To: Women Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://poetrysz.blogspot.com Issue 25 features new work by: Stu Hatton Linda Benninghoff Danielle Adair Mary Kasimor Bobbi Lurie Tim Martin David McFadden Gertrude Halstead Bruce Stater Patrick Mc Manus Submissions for the next issue now open. Send 4-6 poems, and a short bio, in the body of your e-mail, to poetrysz@yahoo.com . Please read the submission guidelines before submitting. Thank you. regards J Chan editor ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 00:50:27 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Rowland Subject: NOON: JOURNAL OF THE SHORT POEM Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Submissions of original, unpublished short poems are invited for the sixth issue, due out this summer. Selections will be made during March and April. Send to noonpress@mac.com; or to Philip Rowland at the following address: Minami Motomachi 4-49-506, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo 160-0012, Japan. Payment for accepted work is made in the form of a contributor copy. The current issue includes poems by: Jesse Glass, Alistair Noon, Charles Rossiter, Bob Arnold, John Martone, Bob Heman, Amanda McGuire, David Giannini, John Bloomberg-Rissman, Vassilis Zambaras, Leslie McGrath, Gengoro, Scott Metz, Jeff Harrison, Taylor Mignon, David Baratier, John M Bennett, rob mclennan, Philip Terry, Boyer Rickel, Morgan Lucas Schuldt, Jeffrey Skinner, Bill Freind, Sarah Gorham, Cralan Kelder, Chris McCabe, John Vieira, Martin Shea, Jeffrey Woodward, Roberta Beary, Joseph Massey, Kit Kennedy, Jordan Stempleman, Kristin Abraham, Jim Kacian, Theodore Worozbyt, William Cirocco, Gary Hotham. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:09:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rabinart@AOL.COM Subject: My comments are in NYTimes today about new Gondry film & Pollocksquared -- Bill Rabinovitch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" My comments are in todays New York Times Movie reviews about the nationwide=20= release just today of the new Michel Gondry's film=C2=A0 "Be Kind Rewind".= =C2=A0 Michel & I are actually in my PollockSquared together in a scene done= a few weeks ago. Comment's today includes a link to Pollocksquared.com ment= ioning the trailer, etc. http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/movies/22rewi.html & click on Readers Reviews on the left side Bill R ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.= aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:34:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jared schickling Subject: Re: Design and the Elastic Mind "The Soul in the New Machines"--- Design - Review - New York Times In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the links to the book fair closing in India, and for the link to= the MoMA exhibit. I shared them with a friend of mine who responded, and = I'm posting his comments with permission (he wishes to be identified as CPR= ) because they ask some interesting questions, make some interesting points= , etc, and I'm curious to hear what others think.=20 =20 Jared Schickling =20 =20 In response to India's "high court's" decision to cancel the book fair on "= environmental grounds," the reasons for which the book fair organizers are = curiously silent, and in which a number of American writers were to partici= pate: I wonder if it's due to an anti-American backlash, and these folks don't th= ink of themselves as "American" writers, being marginal figures here. Of co= urse, this kind of anti-Americanism, if that is the case, is just as stupid= and parochial as American patriotism. It's not fair to these poets who wan= t to share their work. Whether we like it or not, people elsewhere are liab= le to brand us as "American" writers. This is partly what I meant about bei= ng American having stained my soul. So this seems to be a problem for Ameri= can writers at the moment, how to deal with their "Americanness" while tryi= ng to transcend the merely national and attain the human...and then if they= 're insane enough try to push it from there. But these people who ban book = fairs for political reasons, no matter what those reasons are [environmenta= l sounds like bullshit, but we don't actually know], stifle that which I ho= ld most important in Life: free artistic expression and the evolution of th= e human through art. Maybe you could pose this question to the Poetics Disc= ussion group. I'd be interested to hear what others think. I don't really h= ave any ideas myself. Sorry state of affairs. Thank the Freud family...Mayb= e this is why there's been silence about it. Everybody's trying to figure o= ut what they think. Anyone thinking out loud?It also occurs to me that, by = the sounds of their names [book fair participants, Indian-American, if memo= ry serves right], they are not stereotypically "American," and that the adj= ective "American" carries a lot of baggage with it that isn't fair to such = a large, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-cultural nation. How does someon= e named "Sunil" as opposed to "Mike" deal with being lumped in with the "Te= xas Cowboys?" And how about the actual honest to God Texas cowboy who has a= bunch of "Texas Cowboys" smearing his good name? Good lord, what are we to= do with this adjective "American?" How do we release the cowboy? =20 =20 And in response to the MoMA exhibit and its NY Times reviewer: =20 ...I'm reading the [expletive] idiotic review... But seriously, there seems= to be something going on. Not just at the Times, but throughout the Americ= an MSM, which is that being [expletive equivalent to "stupid"] when it come= s to the humanities seems to be a job requirement. These people don't know = anything about the "humanities" because in America, unlike Europe and some = parts of Asia, public education emphasizes math, science and sports from da= y one. Church on Sundays. A God-fearing militaristic society. Now the peop= le who write for the Times are for the most part privately educated and com= e from at least the upper middle or professional class, but where their for= efathers knew they were duping the masses due to their understanding of the= humanities, these folks themselves have also been duped because they never= learned from their fathers the most important aspects of their fathers' kn= owledge. Beckett gave up teaching because he said the things that need to b= e taught can't be taught. Where their fathers had minds that had, as part o= f their evolution, a solid dose of arts and literature, they deprived their= children of it, mistakenly believing that the irrational arts no longer ha= d a place in the world. Kind of like the mafia. Once they started selling s= mack on the street, it was only a matter of time before they started doing = it themselves, and these new addictions among certain members evolved over = time into their ultimate demise as a group. Though they continue thinking o= f themselves as cosa nostra, it's a delusional joke that they think so, bec= ause the code they claim to live by is a dead one. Like Campbell said, we n= eed new myths to psychologically adapt to new actualities, or some such. Hu= man "reality" has to match or seam Earthling "actuality." The American arts= and literature scene, I fear, has fallen victim to this mafia syndrome, Wa= lt Whitmans and Al Capones having become addicted to making money and snort= ing junk, living what they think are good and decent lives. I imagine this = exhibit, if it were scheduled elsewhere, that is not in the homeland, would= run the risk of cancellation. The artists would once again fall victim to = critics. I'm not judging the artists or the individual works in the exhibit= , what else are artists to do? I would sell the film rights for Smoke to Fo= x for $75,000 to clear my school loan and other debt and have something lef= t over. We must live, and live well, that is with dignity. But I am judging= the fact that they--we--are being stained by the culture surrounding us. Y= ou can't live in shit and not smell and look like shit. Some of the work it= self sounds as if it might be interesting if I could experience it for myse= lf. Who knows? I don't, not for certain anyway. What I do know is that arti= sts left Germany and the Soviet Union in droves. But how do non-famous arti= sts transcend or extricate themselves from American be-ing, when even the b= est of us seem brainwashed or manipulated to some extent. I myself get furi= ous daily by television, no matter what's on [almost]. I seem to need the f= ury, the rage seems righteous...but is it a manifestation of the way I've a= llowed myself to be psychologically manipulated? And if so, what am I as an= "artist," that is an autonomous homo sapiens sapiens, to do about it? I do= n't want the easy answer, the romantic stuff about art we say when we feel = good about it, but the nitty gritty stuff that keeps us going even when we = feel shitty about it. I want to know if we have a responsibility to leave t= he country, which isn't easy, one must do it with all one's might, to leave= it literally or figuratively or both. And then how do we do it with, if no= t dignity, at least with style. Like Bukowski once reportedly said: "All th= at matters is how well you walk through the fire." How do we walk through = this fire we perceive and feel?The question again seems to be what can Amer= ican artists do about their Americanness? It seems we need to deconstruct o= ur own patriotisms and nationalisms, tribalisms...so 10 billion human being= s can experience for themselves what's being represented and exhibited at t= he MoMA. =20 >> > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/arts/design/22elas.html?ref=3Darts -= -- _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.=A0You IM, we g= ive. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 08:08:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Today Only - OCHO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If you are interested in receiving a review copy of OCHO [ http://www.lulu.com/browse/search.php?fKeywords=poetry%20ocho%20mipoesias ], please contact Didi Menendez at chinavieja@aim.com Thank you~ _______ Blog http://www.amyking.org/blog Faculty Page http://faculty2.ncc.edu/kinga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:30:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Design and the Elastic Mind "The Soul in the New Machines"--- Design - Review - New York Times In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am not quite clear what these two posts are saying. How is it known that the cancellation of the fair in India had anything to do with America? This hints of self-centeredness to me. Obviously, it is possible that the fair was cancelled due to political considerations, showing that the courts in India are not totally independent either; but the considerations may have been domestic. India has its own domestic frictions. Or "environmental reasons" may be a term like "disturbing the peace," which was the regulation used to control crowds during demonstrations in The United States. As for the review of the MOMA exhibit, I had mixed emotions about it. The whole show possesses the bazaar spirit, demystification of art, which MOMA has assumed as its new persona after its renovations. There was a discussion about it -between the old MOMA and the post modern spirit of the new MOMA- more or less two years ago on the Poetics List. I generally liked this new look and on balance thought it was a positive thing, though occasionally it had a deflating effect on me. I specifically referred to the Modrian section which was all crammed into one single room. Seeing Mondrian paintings hanging one after another on the wall was like watching a film at fast speed (or those books where one flipped the pages to see a series of photos move). It put Mondrian's development as an artist in sharp, narrative focus. On the other hand, having Mondrian's life time work, his obsessions, expressed in minimalist variations over the years -a work which looms so large in my imagination at least- turned into a twenty-minute walk through a room was depressing. (Here we are talking about the dimension of speed, its doubled-edge ambiguity, which I think is essentiall in understanding our present world.) The reviewer of the present exhibition -which obviously seems to possess the wonderful spirit of the bazaar which MOMA has developed- emphasizes the porous, borderless relation between science/technology and art. This is great. A symbiotic relationship between the two is vital and serves both sides. I remember years ago, again at MOMA, an exhibit of new Italian architecture, which had exactly the same qualities. The design of the show, also cramped in a relatively tight space, where different designs of buildings or projects were packed into each other, had the effect for the visitor of walking through an intricate, Alice in Wonderland kind of sculpture, moving from one point/site/design to another following his/her inclinations. The exhibition itself had become for me an ephemeral and resonant piece of sculpture. I loved this merging of genres, of conceptual divisions and thought it was radical, new, and the best spirit of the post-modern. I have not yet seen the new exhibition and, on the surface, the reviewer seems to celebrate a similar spirit of conceptual differences (here between art and technology) merging together. But I think something else is going on for which I have no patience at all. The reviewer seems also to be saying that the difference between art and technology *does not* exist; in the new world they are the same. Of course, this would be an ideal state in a panopticon/capitalist society where every parcel of human life is sized up, measured up, cut up for commercial use/exploitation (its new field of conquest being totally "commercializing the internet"). This way the ghost is exorcized from the machine, and everyone can become a good, democratic (American?) citizen. This same argument is presently going on between Jim, Jason, David and me in the Poetics List around the issue of collage and sound poetry to which I am in the process of writing a response which I have not finished due to my attempt to finish a section of The Structure of Escape at the moment. Ciao, Murat On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 6:34 PM, jared schickling wrote: > Thanks for the links to the book fair closing in India, and for the link > to the MoMA exhibit. I shared them with a friend of mine who responded, and > I'm posting his comments with permission (he wishes to be identified as CPR) > because they ask some interesting questions, make some interesting points, > etc, and I'm curious to hear what others think. > > Jared Schickling > > > In response to India's "high court's" decision to cancel the book fair on > "environmental grounds," the reasons for which the book fair organizers are > curiously silent, and in which a number of American writers were to > participate: > I wonder if it's due to an anti-American backlash, and these folks don't > think of themselves as "American" writers, being marginal figures here. Of > course, this kind of anti-Americanism, if that is the case, is just as > stupid and parochial as American patriotism. It's not fair to these poets > who want to share their work. Whether we like it or not, people elsewhere > are liable to brand us as "American" writers. This is partly what I meant > about being American having stained my soul. So this seems to be a problem > for American writers at the moment, how to deal with their "Americanness" > while trying to transcend the merely national and attain the human...and > then if they're insane enough try to push it from there. But these people > who ban book fairs for political reasons, no matter what those reasons are > [environmental sounds like bullshit, but we don't actually know], stifle > that which I hold most important in Life: free artistic expression and the > evolution of the human through art. Maybe you could pose this question to > the Poetics Discussion group. I'd be interested to hear what others think. I > don't really have any ideas myself. Sorry state of affairs. Thank the Freud > family...Maybe this is why there's been silence about it. Everybody's trying > to figure out what they think. Anyone thinking out loud?It also occurs to me > that, by the sounds of their names [book fair participants, Indian-American, > if memory serves right], they are not stereotypically "American," and that > the adjective "American" carries a lot of baggage with it that isn't fair to > such a large, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-cultural nation. How does > someone named "Sunil" as opposed to "Mike" deal with being lumped in with > the "Texas Cowboys?" And how about the actual honest to God Texas cowboy who > has a bunch of "Texas Cowboys" smearing his good name? Good lord, what are > we to do with this adjective "American?" How do we release the cowboy? > > > And in response to the MoMA exhibit and its NY Times reviewer: > > ...I'm reading the [expletive] idiotic review... But seriously, there > seems to be something going on. Not just at the Times, but throughout the > American MSM, which is that being [expletive equivalent to "stupid"] when it > comes to the humanities seems to be a job requirement. These people don't > know anything about the "humanities" because in America, unlike Europe and > some parts of Asia, public education emphasizes math, science and sports > from day one. Church on Sundays. A God-fearing militaristic society. Now > the people who write for the Times are for the most part privately educated > and come from at least the upper middle or professional class, but where > their forefathers knew they were duping the masses due to their > understanding of the humanities, these folks themselves have also been duped > because they never learned from their fathers the most important aspects of > their fathers' knowledge. Beckett gave up teaching because he said the > things that need to be taught can't be taught. Where their fathers had minds > that had, as part of their evolution, a solid dose of arts and literature, > they deprived their children of it, mistakenly believing that the irrational > arts no longer had a place in the world. Kind of like the mafia. Once they > started selling smack on the street, it was only a matter of time before > they started doing it themselves, and these new addictions among certain > members evolved over time into their ultimate demise as a group. Though they > continue thinking of themselves as cosa nostra, it's a delusional joke that > they think so, because the code they claim to live by is a dead one. Like > Campbell said, we need new myths to psychologically adapt to new > actualities, or some such. Human "reality" has to match or seam Earthling > "actuality." The American arts and literature scene, I fear, has fallen > victim to this mafia syndrome, Walt Whitmans and Al Capones having become > addicted to making money and snorting junk, living what they think are good > and decent lives. I imagine this exhibit, if it were scheduled elsewhere, > that is not in the homeland, would run the risk of cancellation. The artists > would once again fall victim to critics. I'm not judging the artists or the > individual works in the exhibit, what else are artists to do? I would sell > the film rights for Smoke to Fox for $75,000 to clear my school loan and > other debt and have something left over. We must live, and live well, that > is with dignity. But I am judging the fact that they--we--are being stained > by the culture surrounding us. You can't live in shit and not smell and look > like shit. Some of the work itself sounds as if it might be interesting if I > could experience it for myself. Who knows? I don't, not for certain anyway. > What I do know is that artists left Germany and the Soviet Union in droves. > But how do non-famous artists transcend or extricate themselves from > American be-ing, when even the best of us seem brainwashed or manipulated to > some extent. I myself get furious daily by television, no matter what's on > [almost]. I seem to need the fury, the rage seems righteous...but is it a > manifestation of the way I've allowed myself to be psychologically > manipulated? And if so, what am I as an "artist," that is an autonomous homo > sapiens sapiens, to do about it? I don't want the easy answer, the romantic > stuff about art we say when we feel good about it, but the nitty gritty > stuff that keeps us going even when we feel shitty about it. I want to know > if we have a responsibility to leave the country, which isn't easy, one must > do it with all one's might, to leave it literally or figuratively or both. > And then how do we do it with, if not dignity, at least with style. Like > Bukowski once reportedly said: "All that matters is how well you walk > through the fire." How do we walk through this fire we perceive and > feel?The question again seems to be what can American artists do about their > Americanness? It seems we need to deconstruct our own patriotisms and > nationalisms, tribalisms...so 10 billion human beings can experience for > themselves what's being represented and exhibited at the MoMA. > > >> > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/arts/design/22elas.html?ref=arts--- > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we > give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 12:47:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: KOLKATA BOOK FAIR RESCHEDULED FOR 1 MARCH 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The postponed Book Fair'08 which was scheduled at Park Circus Maidan (Calcutta) is reseduled and starts from 1st March'08 at Salt Lake Stadium complex. Renamed : Calcutta Book Fair'08 THERE WERE SEVERAL FACTORS INVOLVED IN THIS SITUATION --primarily environmental groups concerned about the location, , courts' rulings and many other factors to do with pressures from groups not supportive of the WB government and many persons, situations interior to the region-- this i gathered on line and looking forward to hearing from Bengali friends involved with event to learn more-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:32:09 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: (fwd) fredericton's small press fair, march 15 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT info here; http://smallpressbookfair.blogspot.com/2008/02/forward-frederictons-small-press-fair.html For more information, or to register for a table, call Meredith at (506) 454-1433 or email at connex@nbnet.nb.ca -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:32:26 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new(ish) on rob's clever blog Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT new(ish) on rob's clever blog -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- The Crow Journals -- Ottawa: The Unknown City (Arsenal Pulp Press); Ottawa launch! -- trapped in a world they never made... -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- Edmonton on Location: River City Chronicles, edited by Heather Zwicker -- Suspended: A Short Thesis in Seven Parts by Kate Hall -- ongoing notes: mid-February, 2008 (Natalie Zina Walschot's Villains, No Press; Small Town XII; Cannot Exist; NoD magazine, Calgary; ditch: the poetry that matters) -- 12 or 20 questions: with Daphne Marlatt -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- 12 or 20 questions: with Dorothy Trujillo Lusk -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- some new titles from above/ground press -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- The Shovel by Colin Browne -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- Ken Norris' Going Home -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- A/Cross Sections: New Manitoba Writing, eds. Katherine Bitney and Andris Taskans -- ongoing notes; early February, 2007 (Brea Burton's her fascination, Olive Reading Series; Stephen Morrissey's Remembering Artie Gold, Coracle Press; Ken Belford's seens, off-set house) -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- Myrna Kostashs The Doomed Bridegroom & the state of Canadian creative nonfiction -- Rubicon Press (Edmonton) contest -- 12 or 20 questions: with Andrew Pyper -- 12 or 20 questions: with Lynn Coady -- sick notes; -- 12 or 20 questions: with Karl Jirgens -- 12 or 20 questions: with Laisha Rosnau www.robmclennan.blogspot.com + some other new things at the alberta, writing blog www.albertawriting.blogspot.com + some other new things at ottawa poetry newsletter, www.ottawapoetry.blogspot.com + some other other new things at the Chaudiere Books blog, www.chaudierebooks.blogspot.com -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project .... 2007-8 writer in residence, U of Alberta * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jared schickling Subject: Re: Design and the Elastic Mind "The Soul in the New Machines"--- Design - Review - New York Times In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802231030r638c76et8a9ee3a554745bb4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the updates on the book fair and the comments on the MoMA exh= ibit. The previous comments derived from speculation regarding reasons for= the fair closing. Otherwise I think the comments, questions, issues they = raise are clear, even if they deviate from the intial point. Anyway, thank= s again for the reply. =20 Jared> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:30:41 -0500> From: muratnn@GMAIL.COM> Subj= ect: Re: Design and the Elastic Mind "The Soul in the New Machines"--- Desi= gn - Review - New York Times> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > I am not = quite clear what these two posts are saying. How is it known that> the canc= ellation of the fair in India had anything to do with America? This> hints = of self-centeredness to me. Obviously, it is possible that the fair> was ca= ncelled due to political considerations, showing that the courts in> India = are not totally independent either; but the considerations may have> been d= omestic. India has its own domestic frictions. Or "environmental> reasons" = may be a term like "disturbing the peace," which was the regulation> used t= o control crowds during demonstrations in The United States.> > As for the = review of the MOMA exhibit, I had mixed emotions about it. The> whole show = possesses the bazaar spirit, demystification of art, which MOMA> has assume= d as its new persona after its renovations. There was a discussion> about i= t -between the old MOMA and the post modern spirit of the new MOMA-> more o= r less two years ago on the Poetics List. I generally liked this new> look = and on balance thought it was a positive thing, though occasionally it> had= a deflating effect on me. I specifically referred to the Modrian section> = which was all crammed into one single room. Seeing Mondrian paintings> hang= ing one after another on the wall was like watching a film at fast speed> (= or those books where one flipped the pages to see a series of photos move).= > It put Mondrian's development as an artist in sharp, narrative focus. On = the> other hand, having Mondrian's life time work, his obsessions, expresse= d in> minimalist variations over the years -a work which looms so large in = my> imagination at least- turned into a twenty-minute walk through a room w= as> depressing. (Here we are talking about the dimension of speed, its> dou= bled-edge ambiguity, which I think is essentiall in understanding our> pres= ent world.)> > The reviewer of the present exhibition -which obviously seem= s to possess the> wonderful spirit of the bazaar which MOMA has developed- = emphasizes the> porous, borderless relation between science/technology and = art. This is> great. A symbiotic relationship between the two is vital and = serves both> sides. I remember years ago, again at MOMA, an exhibit of new = Italian> architecture, which had exactly the same qualities. The design of = the show,> also cramped in a relatively tight space, where different design= s of> buildings or projects were packed into each other, had the effect for= the> visitor of walking through an intricate, Alice in Wonderland kind of>= sculpture, moving from one point/site/design to another following his/her>= inclinations. The exhibition itself had become for me an ephemeral and> re= sonant piece of sculpture. I loved this merging of genres, of conceptual> d= ivisions and thought it was radical, new, and the best spirit of the> post-= modern.> > I have not yet seen the new exhibition and, on the surface, the = reviewer> seems to celebrate a similar spirit of conceptual differences (he= re between> art and technology) merging together. But I think something els= e is going on> for which I have no patience at all. The reviewer seems also= to be saying> that the difference between art and technology *does not* ex= ist; in the new> world they are the same. Of course, this would be an ideal= state in a> panopticon/capitalist society where every parcel of human life= is sized up,> measured up, cut up for commercial use/exploitation (its new= field of> conquest being totally "commercializing the internet"). This way= the ghost> is exorcized from the machine, and everyone can become a good, = democratic> (American?) citizen. This same argument is presently going on b= etween Jim,> Jason, David and me in the Poetics List around the issue of co= llage and> sound poetry to which I am in the process of writing a response = which I have> not finished due to my attempt to finish a section of The Str= ucture of> Escape at the moment.> > Ciao,> > Murat> > On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 = at 6:34 PM, jared schickling > wrote:> > > Thanks = for the links to the book fair closing in India, and for the link> > to the= MoMA exhibit. I shared them with a friend of mine who responded, and> > I'= m posting his comments with permission (he wishes to be identified as CPR)>= > because they ask some interesting questions, make some interesting point= s,> > etc, and I'm curious to hear what others think.> >> > Jared Schicklin= g> >> >> > In response to India's "high court's" decision to cancel the boo= k fair on> > "environmental grounds," the reasons for which the book fair o= rganizers are> > curiously silent, and in which a number of American writer= s were to> > participate:> > I wonder if it's due to an anti-American backl= ash, and these folks don't> > think of themselves as "American" writers, be= ing marginal figures here. Of> > course, this kind of anti-Americanism, if = that is the case, is just as> > stupid and parochial as American patriotism= . It's not fair to these poets> > who want to share their work. Whether we = like it or not, people elsewhere> > are liable to brand us as "American" wr= iters. This is partly what I meant> > about being American having stained m= y soul. So this seems to be a problem> > for American writers at the moment= , how to deal with their "Americanness"> > while trying to transcend the me= rely national and attain the human...and> > then if they're insane enough t= ry to push it from there. But these people> > who ban book fairs for politi= cal reasons, no matter what those reasons are> > [environmental sounds like= bullshit, but we don't actually know], stifle> > that which I hold most im= portant in Life: free artistic expression and the> > evolution of the human= through art. Maybe you could pose this question to> > the Poetics Discussi= on group. I'd be interested to hear what others think. I> > don't really ha= ve any ideas myself. Sorry state of affairs. Thank the Freud> > family...Ma= ybe this is why there's been silence about it. Everybody's trying> > to fig= ure out what they think. Anyone thinking out loud?It also occurs to me> > t= hat, by the sounds of their names [book fair participants, Indian-American,= > > if memory serves right], they are not stereotypically "American," and t= hat> > the adjective "American" carries a lot of baggage with it that isn't= fair to> > such a large, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-cultural nation= . How does> > someone named "Sunil" as opposed to "Mike" deal with being lu= mped in with> > the "Texas Cowboys?" And how about the actual honest to God= Texas cowboy who> > has a bunch of "Texas Cowboys" smearing his good name?= Good lord, what are> > we to do with this adjective "American?" How do we = release the cowboy?> >> >> > And in response to the MoMA exhibit and its NY= Times reviewer:> >> > ...I'm reading the [expletive] idiotic review... But= seriously, there> > seems to be something going on. Not just at the Times,= but throughout the> > American MSM, which is that being [expletive equival= ent to "stupid"] when it> > comes to the humanities seems to be a job requi= rement. These people don't> > know anything about the "humanities" because = in America, unlike Europe and> > some parts of Asia, public education empha= sizes math, science and sports> > from day one. Church on Sundays. A God-fe= aring militaristic society. Now> > the people who write for the Times are f= or the most part privately educated> > and come from at least the upper mid= dle or professional class, but where> > their forefathers knew they were du= ping the masses due to their> > understanding of the humanities, these folk= s themselves have also been duped> > because they never learned from their = fathers the most important aspects of> > their fathers' knowledge. Beckett = gave up teaching because he said the> > things that need to be taught can't= be taught. Where their fathers had minds> > that had, as part of their evo= lution, a solid dose of arts and literature,> > they deprived their childre= n of it, mistakenly believing that the irrational> > arts no longer had a p= lace in the world. Kind of like the mafia. Once they> > started selling sma= ck on the street, it was only a matter of time before> > they started doing= it themselves, and these new addictions among certain> > members evolved o= ver time into their ultimate demise as a group. Though they> > continue thi= nking of themselves as cosa nostra, it's a delusional joke that> > they thi= nk so, because the code they claim to live by is a dead one. Like> > Campbe= ll said, we need new myths to psychologically adapt to new> > actualities, = or some such. Human "reality" has to match or seam Earthling> > "actuality.= " The American arts and literature scene, I fear, has fallen> > victim to t= his mafia syndrome, Walt Whitmans and Al Capones having become> > addicted = to making money and snorting junk, living what they think are good> > and d= ecent lives. I imagine this exhibit, if it were scheduled elsewhere,> > tha= t is not in the homeland, would run the risk of cancellation. The artists> = > would once again fall victim to critics. I'm not judging the artists or t= he> > individual works in the exhibit, what else are artists to do? I would= sell> > the film rights for Smoke to Fox for $75,000 to clear my school lo= an and> > other debt and have something left over. We must live, and live w= ell, that> > is with dignity. But I am judging the fact that they--we--are = being stained> > by the culture surrounding us. You can't live in shit and = not smell and look> > like shit. Some of the work itself sounds as if it mi= ght be interesting if I> > could experience it for myself. Who knows? I don= 't, not for certain anyway.> > What I do know is that artists left Germany = and the Soviet Union in droves.> > But how do non-famous artists transcend = or extricate themselves from> > American be-ing, when even the best of us s= eem brainwashed or manipulated to> > some extent. I myself get furious dail= y by television, no matter what's on> > [almost]. I seem to need the fury, = the rage seems righteous...but is it a> > manifestation of the way I've all= owed myself to be psychologically> > manipulated? And if so, what am I as a= n "artist," that is an autonomous homo> > sapiens sapiens, to do about it? = I don't want the easy answer, the romantic> > stuff about art we say when w= e feel good about it, but the nitty gritty> > stuff that keeps us going eve= n when we feel shitty about it. I want to know> > if we have a responsibili= ty to leave the country, which isn't easy, one must> > do it with all one's= might, to leave it literally or figuratively or both.> > And then how do w= e do it with, if not dignity, at least with style. Like> > Bukowski once re= portedly said: "All that matters is how well you walk> > through the fire."= How do we walk through this fire we perceive and> > feel?The question agai= n seems to be what can American artists do about their> > Americanness? It = seems we need to deconstruct our own patriotisms and> > nationalisms, triba= lisms...so 10 billion human beings can experience for> > themselves what's = being represented and exhibited at the MoMA.> >> > >> > http://www.nytimes.= com/2008/02/22/arts/design/22elas.html?ref=3Darts---> > ___________________= ______________________________________________> > Helping your favorite cau= se is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we> > give.> > http://im.live.c= om/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo= ur "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 00:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Corey Frost Subject: The GC poetics group presents Jazz Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, MARCH 8th, 2008, at 8 pm, at the Yippie Museum, 9 Bleecker Street, just west of Bowery, New York, NY, The CUNY Graduate Center Poetics Group presents live JAZZ and live POETRY, with performances by STEVE DALACHINSKY and Jake Marmer, with Frantic Turtle. In addition, we'll be inviting various poets and scholars onstage to introduce and play clips of their favourite jazz poetry recordings: Jack Kerouac with David Amram, Amiri Baraka, The Last Poets, and lots of things you've never heard of. Discussion will be led by Hank Williams, Christine Timm, and Corey Frost. Participation encouraged, requests taken, turtleneck not required. All are welcome; $5 suggested donation. MARCH 8th, 8 pm, Yippie Museum, 9 Bleecker Street. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 08:46:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: KOLKATA BOOK FAIR RESCHEDULED FOR 1 MARCH 2008 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David There has been a tussle going on between the publishers and booksellers guild, the writers of the city, environmentalists and lawmakers over the venue of the Kolkata bookfair. It had been held for all these years at the Maidan - an open park-stretch, part of which is a parade ground. This is a vast stretch of greenland considered in the recent years to be the "lung of the city" - something like the NYC central park in its own scale. However, this is an open area, least protected environmentally and little maintained by the city administration. When 3 million people walk that space over 10 days within the bookfair premises, the green, as you can expect, vanishes. A dust popularly called "bookdust" streams over large parts of the city during the late afternoon hours causing much distress. With summers getting hotter and hotter in the city and given the callous city maintenance strategies, it takes months now to grow back the grass. Environmentalists have argued against the venue for the past couple of years. Last year the court ordered against holding the bookfair at the Maidan. Protests followed immediately from writers. A symbolic bookfair was held at the Maidan last year. The protests were led by senior writers of the city promptly supported by most literary magazines and organizations. Kaurab took part too. Here are some snapshots from the last symbolic bookfair - http://www.kaurab.com/kabita_camp/baimela2007-1.html Kolkata is literary city like none. A city that houses a few thousand writers, artists and intellectuals. Books are a first. Who cares for a clean environment if books are banned ! That's a popular thought. Moreover, everything about Kolkata is complex and passionate. The environmentalist organization that took the issue to court are anti-literary people in the first place. Writers argued why the bookfair was picked as a conscience-cleaner when there are a thousand other sources of environmental pollution in and around the city including a rapidly growing population of automobiles, a sizeable portion of which rarely get e-checked. "Books don't pollute" - the banners carried by the writers and small-presses said. Finally, the venue was shifted to the ramparts of the biggest soccer stadium of the city - Yababharati Krirangan or the Salt Lake Stadium. The same incidents repeated this year. The leftist government supports the guild and the writers but has little role to play. The tussle is between the court and the publishers and booksellers guild. Underneath all this lies a strong suspicion that Anand Bazar Publications, the most powerful literary establishment in the city and the publishers of one of the largest selling dailies in India, helped catapult a situation like this. The bookfair is clearly a public event where thousands of little magazines and small presses participate. These presses often make the largest sales of the year during these ten days. Many depend on the fair for a livelihood. ABP seeks greater control of literary business at the fair, wants to privatize it and drive out the small fish and the errand boys. Each year, the bookfair selects a country as its theme. This year it was the USA. Some of the literary stalwarts, most of whom are popular writers (not necessarily the more innovative or experimental ones) who have led these protests and have taken charge of the American delegates, are products of ABP and maintain a close nexus. Quite naturally, the literary crowd of the city are examining their roles with great caution. This year, I have heard many allegations from writers in the city that the American delegates were shielded from them. Free interactions were prevented. The messages conveyed by the American delegates have also failed to create a literary interest of any serious proportion. Furthermore, it might have been also been quite frustrating for the delegation to return without a proper participation at the fair. It's a sad tale in brief. Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of David Chirot Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 3:48 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: KOLKATA BOOK FAIR RESCHEDULED FOR 1 MARCH 2008 The postponed Book Fair'08 which was scheduled at Park Circus Maidan (Calcutta) is reseduled and starts from 1st March'08 at Salt Lake Stadium complex. Renamed : Calcutta Book Fair'08 THERE WERE SEVERAL FACTORS INVOLVED IN THIS SITUATION --primarily environmental groups concerned about the location, , courts' rulings and many other factors to do with pressures from groups not supportive of the WB government and many persons, situations interior to the region-- this i gathered on line and looking forward to hearing from Bengali friends involved with event to learn more-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:06:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Creeley review in NY Times Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable August Kleinzahler, in his necessarily brief=20 review in today's Times,=20 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/Kleinzahler-t.html?ref=3Dbook= s=20 , agrees with Simic that the best work is the=20 early work, but he hardly dismisses everything=20 that came after, and the tone is in marked=20 contrast--pure celebration. And not a hint of a hidden agenda. Made my day. I think it's fair to say, as Kleinzahler does,=20 that the books of the late sixties and seventies=20 are uneven (though I like much of that work more=20 than Leinzahler does, and I continue to be=20 mystified by the lack of attention to poems like=20 Numbers, The Door, and The Finger, all, by=20 Creeley's standards, long poems), but he has the=20 grace to let Creeley speak about it himself. Here's the fimnal paragraph: "Creeley wrote and published a great deal over a=20 lengthy career. Once into the =9270s, the=20 distinctive early style seemed to harden into=20 mannerism. Creeley was casting about during these=20 years. Always a risk-taker, always restless, he=20 had become impatient with his earlier method. =93I=20 grew inexorably bored with the tidy containment=20 of clusters of words on single pieces of paper=20 called =91poems=92 =AD =91this will really get them, wrap=20 it up. ...=92 I could see nothing in my life nor=20 those of others adjacent that supported this=20 single hits theory,=94 Creeley wrote in 1974. Like=20 the painters and musicians he admired and liked=20 to collaborate with, Robert Creeley was one of=20 those artists who refused to let himself be bored=20 by his own art. The reader will find very little=20 to be bored by in this brilliant, essential volume." Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:45:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: some upcoming readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 29, 2007 7:30 PM > > TOXIC PARADISE READING SERIES; > in conjunction with the Shalom Neuman Exhibit/Installation > TOXIC PARADISE > > @ FUSION ARTS MUSEUM > 57 STANTON ST. NYC 1212- 995-5290 > > PT. 1 > > Bob Holman > > Chavisa Woods > > Steve Dalachinsky > > donation > _______________________________________________________________________ > > MARCH 2, 2007 > > BENEFIT FOR IRA COHEN AT SOHO HOUSE > > Sunday March 2, 2008 > > Soho House > 29-35 Ninth Ave NY, NY > Between Little W. 12th ST and 13th ST next to Vitra Showroom > A suggested donation $5 and upwards > will be in affect and will be credited towards purchase of photographs > an RSVP is ESSENTIAL > > RSVP -- lulus@ix.netcom.com > > Soho House requires a door guest list > > many speakers, readers, musicians, films > _____________________________________ > MARCH 8, 2007 > @ the YIPPIE CAFE - Bleeker Street > > steve dalachinsky > amiel alcalay (we hope) > jake marmer > david grollman > and many musicians > > $5 suggested contribution > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > MARCH 9th, 2008 > > PRAISE BUKOWSKI NIGHT > @ THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB > > 10 pm - Midnight Hosted by Tsuarah Litsky > > many readers > > _________________________________________________________________________ > ____ > > MARCH 16, 2006 > > @ THE JEWISH MUSEUM > 1109 5TH AVE. @ 92ND ST > > 4-5 PM > > STEVE DALACHINSKY > MATTHEW ROTH > JAKE MARMER & others > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > MARCH 21, 2007 > > a very special evening at the BRECHT FORUM > BANK STREET & WEST ST > > JOELLE LEANDRE > J.D. PARRAN > MATT MANERI with guest poet STEVE DALACHINSKY > > $10 > > ______________________________________________ > > LATE IN MAY STEVE - YUKO AND STEPHANIE STONE > REPRISE THEIR GIG AT THE STONE > STAY TUNED FOR UPDATES > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:13:13 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Creeley review in NY Times In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080224095317.0632c7f8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Great thanks, wonderful enthusiasm! On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > August Kleinzahler, in his necessarily brief > review in today's Times, > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/Kleinzahler-t.html?ref=3Db= ooks > , agrees with Simic that the best work is the > early work, but he hardly dismisses everything > that came after, and the tone is in marked > contrast--pure celebration. And not a hint of a hidden agenda. Made my > day. > > I think it's fair to say, as Kleinzahler does, > that the books of the late sixties and seventies > are uneven (though I like much of that work more > than Leinzahler does, and I continue to be > mystified by the lack of attention to poems like > Numbers, The Door, and The Finger, all, by > Creeley's standards, long poems), but he has the > grace to let Creeley speak about it himself. Here's the fimnal paragraph: > > "Creeley wrote and published a great deal over a > lengthy career. Once into the '70s, the > distinctive early style seemed to harden into > mannerism. Creeley was casting about during these > years. Always a risk-taker, always restless, he > had become impatient with his earlier method. "I > grew inexorably bored with the tidy containment > of clusters of words on single pieces of paper > called 'poems' =AD 'this will really get them, wrap > it up. ...' I could see nothing in my life nor > those of others adjacent that supported this > single hits theory," Creeley wrote in 1974. Like > the painters and musicians he admired and liked > to collaborate with, Robert Creeley was one of > those artists who refused to let himself be bored > by his own art. The reader will find very little > to be bored by in this brilliant, essential volume." > > Mark > --=20 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:41:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Steven D. Schroeder" Subject: Anti- Featured Poet #1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anti-'s first Featured Poet, Aaron Belz, is on the front page for 2 = weeks starting today. New Featured Poets will be added biweekly from now = until Issue #2 appears sometime in June. Steven D. Schroeder Editor, Anti- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:33:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Creeley review in NY Times In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080224095317.0632c7f8@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="EUC-KR" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable agree w/ all you say, mark, except that Pieces seemed to have influenced some Lang poets & others, & Later & other later books are as strong as his early writing--stronger than that it doesn't get. charles altieri has such insightful writing on creeley--what he was doing, existentially, in each period of his work, in an essay on creeley & merwin, in Enlarging the Temple. best ruth l. On 2/24/08 10:06 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > August Kleinzahler, in his necessarily brief > review in today's Times, > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/Kleinzahler-t.html?ref=3Dboo= ks > , agrees with Simic that the best work is the > early work, but he hardly dismisses everything > that came after, and the tone is in marked > contrast--pure celebration. And not a hint of a hidden agenda. Made my da= y. >=20 > I think it's fair to say, as Kleinzahler does, > that the books of the late sixties and seventies > are uneven (though I like much of that work more > than Leinzahler does, and I continue to be > mystified by the lack of attention to poems like > Numbers, The Door, and The Finger, all, by > Creeley's standards, long poems), but he has the > grace to let Creeley speak about it himself. Here's the fimnal paragraph: >=20 > "Creeley wrote and published a great deal over a > lengthy career. Once into the =A1=AF70s, the > distinctive early style seemed to harden into > mannerism. Creeley was casting about during these > years. Always a risk-taker, always restless, he > had become impatient with his earlier method. =A1=B0I > grew inexorably bored with the tidy containment > of clusters of words on single pieces of paper > called =A1=AEpoems=A1=AF =A1=A9 =A1=AEthis will really get them, wrap > it up. ...=A1=AF I could see nothing in my life nor > those of others adjacent that supported this > single hits theory,=A1=B1 Creeley wrote in 1974. Like > the painters and musicians he admired and liked > to collaborate with, Robert Creeley was one of > those artists who refused to let himself be bored > by his own art. The reader will find very little > to be bored by in this brilliant, essential volume." >=20 > Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:53:39 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: James Brown Anthology - request for submissions MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:11:22 +0000 From: WorkingPoets@yahoogroups.com 1. Request for Submissions: JAMES BROWN Anthology Posted by: "Roxanne Hoffman" poetswearprada@att.net roxy533 Date: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:12 pm ((PST)) Request for Submissions: JAMES BROWN Anthology ============================================== This is a shout out for help. Almost a year ago, when brother James Brown made his transition, I posted the following Call for Poems about the impact his lifetime of music has had on anyone within the reach of the call. To date the response has been powerful but as of today-February 20, 2008, the number of poems submitted for consideration number less than 50. Poets we need at least another 150 poems, to put together a strong anthology. I know a lot of people hit this drum. I'm asking each person who reads this call to stop and take a minute to forward it to at least 3 people they know who are either poets or who know poets. If you belong to other listserves, consider helping us out by posting this call on it if possible. If ya'll don't have a James Brown poem-considering writing one and send it to us. I realize all things come in their own time, but on the practical side-books like these have their time too- May 6, 2008, will mark year the world's been without James Brown. In his honor, get down-send us your James Brown poems today. Peace, Mary Weems Dr. Mary E. Weems invites your submission: Say it Loud: Poems about James Brown. Edited by: Mary E. Weems, and Michael Oatman. We grew up on James Brown's hit me! When he danced every young Black man wanted to move, groove and look like him. Mr. Brown wasn't called the hardest workingman in show business because he wasn't. Experiencing a James Brown show was like getting your favourite soul food twice, plus desert. His songs, like black power fists you could be proud of and move to at the same time. When Mr. Brown sang make it funky we sweated even in the wintertime. Losing him was like losing somebody in our family. This is a shout out for poems about the impact James Brown had on our lives. Poems that will help people remember, honour, and celebrate his legacy. Don't be left in a cold sweat, send us your old and new James Brown poems today. Submission Guidelines: 3-5 Unpublished and/or published poems with acknowledgement included. No longer than 73 lines Deadline: April 30, 2008 (Receipt not postmark) Send hard copies along with a Word Document and short bio on a CD to: Dr. Mary E. Weems / English Department / John Carroll University / 20700 North Park Blvd. / University Hts., Ohio 44118 / Send via e-mail attachment (Word Documents Only) to: mweems at sbcglobal dot net and mikeoatman at hotmail dot com Messages in this topic (1) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorkingPoets/ <*> Your email settings: Digest Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorkingPoets/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:WorkingPoets-normal@yahoogroups.com mailto:WorkingPoets-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: WorkingPoets-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 12:46:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto Bo la=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Substitute, say, "language poetry" for "fascism" and the trajectory of these invented lives would be much the same as they are for the busy networks of real writers Bola=F1o knew from the inside out . . . Who said literature has no real power to affect history? Not Bola=F1o =97 for him, literature is an unnervingly protean, amoral force with uncanny powers of self-invention, self-justification and self-mythification. The mythmakers, he suggests, certainly do matter. If Hitler had won, for instance, the not entirely absurd stories in this encyclopedia would be the prevailing stories of the culture. Is Nazi poetry an oxymoron? Not a bit of it, posits Bola=F1o. On the contrary, it's all too possible. from Stacey D'Erasmo's review http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/D-Erasmo-t.html?ref=3Dbooks = --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Lundwall Subject: scantily clad press seeks submissions! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i'm editing a new ebook series... i'm looking for short (under 20 pages) poetry manuscripts... submissions and inquiries should be directed to andrewlundwall@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo= ur "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:17:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Here are some interesting passages from the Oulipo Compendium edited by Harry Matthews. The first bunch are from Matthews's introduction. 12. It so happened that shortly after the creation of Surrealism, France witnessed the birth--this time in the domain of mathematics--of anohter avent-garde group called Bourbaki [1920's]. There can be no doubt that, when they founded the Oulipo, Queneau and Le Lionnais, amateur mathematicians that they were, had this group in mind. 13. When the Oulipo was conceived [1960], Bourbaki provided a counter-model to the Surrealist group. 14. We can also say that the Oulipo is an homage to Bourbaki and an imitation of Bourbaki. 15. At the same time, it is no less obviously a parody of Bourbaki, even a profanation of Bourbaki. . . . 21. The aim of the Oulipo is to invent (or reinvent) restrictions of a formal nature (constraintes) and propose them to enthusiasts interested in composing literature. 22. An initial misunderstanding can thus be eliminated at once: as a group, the Oulipo does not count the creation of literary works among its primary aims. Whatever its other merits, a literary work that deserves to be called Oulipian may have been written by a member of the Oulipo, but it may have been written by a non-member. 23. It follows that truly Oulipian publications (those published in its name) do not necessarily lay claim to the title of literary works. (Whence certain critical misunderstandings, not always innocent). . . . 26. ...the Oulipo's work is collaborative. 34. The limiting and at the same time crucial role of mathematics in Oulipian art represents an intentional choice on the part of its founders. Their basic reason was that, in Queneau's and Le Lionnais's view, after the exhaustion of the generative powerr of traditional constraints, only mathematics could offer a way out between a nostalgic obstinacy with worn-out modes of expression and an intellectually pathetic belief in "total freedom"... . . . 36....A definition: An Oulipian author is a rat who himself builds the maze from which he sets out to escape. 37. It is clear from what has so far been said that Oulipian procedures are as remote as possible from "automatic writing": and, more generally, from the notion of any kind of literature whose strategic foundation is chance... . . . 39....It should be remembered that the Oulipo turned to Bourbaki for its method, the "axiomatic method"....Constraints are presented in explicit and systematic form and can be notated in the language of mathematical logic. Oulipian texts thus become the literary consequences of these axioms... 40...."A text written according to a constraint describes the constraint." [Or perhaps "models" the constraint.] "A text written according to a constraint dependent on a mathematical theory utilises the non-trivial theorems of the theory." . . . 47. The Oulipo has obviously not invented a form that can compare to the sonnet. The conditions determining the appearance of a durable literary form, whatever its nature, are far too complex to lie within reach of the most determined individual or group, no matter how "gifted"... . . . 50. ....Francois Le Lionnais was a strict, integral Oulipian who never made concessions. This meant that he devoted himself entirely to Oulipian theory and did not himself write Oulipian texts, a task that he left to his disciples--us--and to his friend, Raymond Queneau. Forthormore, the Oulipo was for him no more than the first instance of a far vaster undertaking, one that I hve called the "quest for a generalised Ou-x-po": and in fact he founded not only an Oulipopo, the Ouvroir de littéerature policiere potentielle (or Worshop for Potential Detective Fiction, still flourising),... but in addition an Oupeinpo for painting, an Oumathpo for mathematics, ... and an Oucuipo for the art of cooking. And, following the same model, he foresaw a general extension of potentiality to the entirety of human activities, in other words a family of Ou-x-pos, the range of the xs being potentially infinite and subject to recursive treatment, so that there would be an Ou-(ou-x-po)-po, then an Ou-(ou-(ou-x-po)-po)-po, annd so forth.... . . . 52. In conclusion, what is the Oulipo's general aesthetic policy? Certainly Pythagorean, as is shown by the invention of "Queneau's numbers", a most up-to-date version of the golden mean. But I shall say no more on this point. In the words of the operetta, "Some secrets you don't give away." This is from the entry named 'Machines for Writing' in the Oulipo Compendium: "In the broadest sense of the word, every Oulipian technique can be thought of as a writing machine." This is from 'What is the Oupeinpo?' in the Oulipo Compendium: 2. de peinture, for painting, but the term is used synecdochically, since the Oupeinpo does not limit "painting" to the art of applying pigment. On the contrary, it has no scruples about extending it to all the graphic and plastic arts and it advocates not only the painter's brush and palette knife but the draughtsman's pencil, the engraver's burin, the stucco-maker's float, the tagger's spray-can, even the mouse of the electronic image-maker. Camera and printing press are no strangers to it. And it makes a point of encouraging needle and scalpel, larding-pin and chopper, spray-gun and compressor, printer driver and pile-driver, laser and rolling-mill, and field artillery (bombs if necessary), not to mention bare hands and digital agility. Indeed, one of the Oupeinpo's objectives is to increase the range of what is available to the painter in the way of material as well as of materials, surfaces, techniques, procedures, subjects, viewpoints, theories, and so on. 3. potentielle, potential: because the Oupeinpo itself produces no actual paintings. It applies itself not to works but to the methods, arrangements, manipulations, structures, and formal restrictions with which painters past, present and future were, are and will be able to create their works. If it does not reject what is manifest in works of art, it asserts that this is the business of artists, patrons, and the world of viewers. Its own role is to suggest "forms" or transformations where works exist as possibilities. We hasten to add that its members do their best to become the first to keep these forms from remaining empty by embodying them in examples." --- This is of particular interest to me at the moment as I write dbCinema, a graphic synthesizer or movie painter. It occurs to me that if, in a generative visual program, something is making marks on the screen, then we might as well say that a pen or brush is involved. In this sense, generative visual art is all about creating interesting brushes and ways to combine them. From a software architecture point of view, we may hypothesize that the fundamental classes or abstract structures of generative visual art are 1. the brush/pen 2. the canvas/screen 3. the 'paint' Which is to say that if one creates flexible such classes and relations between them (and gives each of these good, general, properties and methods), one is on the way to being able to do anything doable in generative visual software art. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:27:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ozcan turkmen Subject: "Listening to Istanbul" .::. My near-future project announcement In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi there, This is to announce my near-future project. On 11 March 2006, the German city of Essen (representing the Ruhr region), the Hungarian city of Pécs and the Turkish city of Istanbul were selected as European Capitals of Culture for 2010 by the EU council. "Listening to Istanbul" is my candidate project among many others that are being proposed for Istanbul 2010 European Capital of Culture Agency, and is an implementation of my idea of a "living poem" which is changing continuously by collaborative and interactive work. I'm looking for sponsors for the project. Nevertheless, I decided to continue developing it on my own, in case I can't find one. I have chosen Orhan Veli's "I'm listening to Istanbul" as the entry point for the project, for it is probably the most popular and most beautiful poem ever written on Istanbul. Written over half a century ago, in that poem, the poet imagines the city as a living human body, and by listening to it with his eyes closed, tries to touch and feel it's liveliness. But since the city has changed tremendously ever since Veli wrote his poem, a new listening effort would be valuable in order to portray today's Istanbul, and in order to follow the poet's way. Aiming at this points, the contributors of the project "Listening to Istanbul", that is the visitors and the registered users of project's web site, will try to suggest new words for the poem in order to express the feeling of living in today's Istanbul. All suggestions will be collected periodically to be reviewed by the project committee and then a new version (the nth iteration) of the text will be published as the actual version on project's web site, Veli's poem being the iteration numbered 0. Then in the same way this actual version will be processed again to get the new iteration. This process can be repeated as many times as desired. In addition to this "iteration of text" process, the contributors of the project will be allowed to comment any part of the version in hand with any kind of material (text, image, sound, hyperlink to a web site, etc) they provide to project's web site. Furthermore, the project will be supported with interactive forums, chat rooms and live activities. After a period of a year, huge material and numerous creative work could be collected via project's web site. The project's web site will be set up soon at http://www.workmanofchild.com Best regards, Ozcan Turkmen --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:44:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Creeley review in NY Times In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm one of those influenced by Pieces, though any=20 similarity between my work and Language is=20 coincidental (hell, there were a lot of us=20 working that way before a brand name got attached=20 to it), and I also agree about Later. I didn't=20 say anything about the post-70s books, which I=20 love. I think he'd found a new way to work by then. Mark At 02:33 PM 2/24/2008, you wrote: >agree w/ all you say, mark, except that Pieces seemed to have influenced >some Lang poets & others, & Later & other later books are as strong as his >early writing--stronger than that it doesn't get. >charles altieri has such insightful writing on creeley--what he was doing, >existentially, in each period of his work, in an essay on creeley & merwin, >in Enlarging the Temple. >best >ruth l. > > >On 2/24/08 10:06 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > > > August Kleinzahler, in his necessarily brief > > review in today's Times, > >= http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/Kleinzahler-t.html?ref=3Dboo= ks > > , agrees with Simic that the best work is the > > early work, but he hardly dismisses everything > > that came after, and the tone is in marked > > contrast--pure celebration. And not a hint of a hidden agenda. Made my= day. > > > > I think it's fair to say, as Kleinzahler does, > > that the books of the late sixties and seventies > > are uneven (though I like much of that work more > > than Leinzahler does, and I continue to be > > mystified by the lack of attention to poems like > > Numbers, The Door, and The Finger, all, by > > Creeley's standards, long poems), but he has the > > grace to let Creeley speak about it himself. Here's the fimnal= paragraph: > > > > "Creeley wrote and published a great deal over a > > lengthy career. Once into the =A1=AF70s, the > > distinctive early style seemed to harden into > > mannerism. Creeley was casting about during these > > years. Always a risk-taker, always restless, he > > had become impatient with his earlier method. =A1=B0I > > grew inexorably bored with the tidy containment > > of clusters of words on single pieces of paper > > called =A1=AEpoems=A1=AF =A1=A9 =A1=AEthis will really get them, wrap > > it up. ...=A1=AF I could see nothing in my life nor > > those of others adjacent that supported this > > single hits theory,=A1=B1 Creeley wrote in 1974. Like > > the painters and musicians he admired and liked > > to collaborate with, Robert Creeley was one of > > those artists who refused to let himself be bored > > by his own art. The reader will find very little > > to be bored by in this brilliant, essential volume." > > > > Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:38:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Deborah M. Poe" Subject: flim forum's a sing economy In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080224095317.0632c7f8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are interested in receiving a review copy of A Sing Economy, please contact Matthew Klane at klane@flimforum.com (see below for additional information). --d. poe ^A Sing Economy^: the NEW anthology from Flim Forum Press is now available for sale. ISBN 978-0-9790888-1-0 7 x 9 256 pages ^A Sing Economy^: includes extensive selections from twenty contemporary poets, including: Kate Schapira, Barrett Gordon, Jennifer Karmin, Stephanie Strickland, Mathew Timmons, Kaethe Schwehn, Harold Abramowitz & Amanda Ackerman, Jaye Bartell, Jessica Smith, David Pavelich, Erin M. Bertram, Laura Sims, Deborah Poe, francois luong & a.rawlings, Michael Slosek, Kevin Thurston, Hannah Rodabaugh, and Tawrin Baker. Also, three cover films by Scott Puccio. ^A Sing Economy^: is edited by Matthew Klane and Adam Golaski. Reviews: If you wish to review ^A Sing Economy^ (and/or ^Oh One Arrow^, or know someone who will, please query: klane@flimforum.com, and copies will certainly be made available. Purchase Info: To purchase ^A Sing Economy^: send a check, payable to Flim Forum Press, for $20 (includes shipping and handling) to: Flim Forum Press PO Box 549 Slingerlands, NY 12159 ^A Sing Economy^ is also being sold w/ Flim Forum's first anthology ^Oh One Arrow^ (see: flimforum.com) for the combined price of $30. ^A Sing Economy^ can be purchased, as well, through Small Press Distribution (spdbooks.org). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:04:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: re Pound/Bernstein-//"Close Reading" NY Times review of works of Chinese scholar/artist/forger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/arts/design/24unge.html?_r=1&ref=arts&oref=slogin --- This is a great story-- the leading collector and expert on Chinese painting of his times-- provides himself with works to "authenticate" which he has created himself and so produces works which he himself can adjudge and others applaud as the "oldest known" "Masterpieces" of their kind-- i find forgery fascinating as a disruptor of codes and systems which expose the "economic" "values" which are enmeshed with artistic/literary "values"-- and the exposure of the "forgery" as it were of "authority" in "judging" "masterpieces," the "canon," social historico-cultural "contested values" and meanings. The Chinese example here bringing to mind the role ofChina in the discussion of Pound and Bernstein's work-- (fre forgery--for example--the forgery of the "Italian Letter" combined with the disinformation of Curveball used to invade Iraq-- which Jenny Holzer's "Projections" and paintings of 6 year old documents preceding the war are enmeshed in a mirroring of the power they "critique"--mirroring "Star Wars" which mirrors Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will"--and found reflected in aspects of the tortures at Guantanamo and changes there to "win hearts and minds"--for a tour of the images and quotations and interlocking relationships among these & Holzer's bean bag chairs and paintings of paintings see- http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/02/new-ways-to-win-hearts-and-minds-gitmo.html --- in a 21 february post Wynston Curnow wrote: Speaking for Bernstein, let me quote from his 'Revenge of the Poet-critic' in MY WAY: " There is no wholly intrinsic meaning to any form, nor are there a priori superior forms. Devices and techniques--the tools and the styles of the past--shift in meaning and value over time, requiring continuing reassessment. Yet forms do have extrinsic, social meanings that are forged through a contestation of values from which it is impossible to withhold judgement" (p.4) What struck me when i first read this is the use of the word "forged"-- not only does one think of Hephaestus at his forge, or the immortal Village Smithy, but those who have "forged" art works, literary documents, historical and archaeological evidence, identity cards, passports, ad infinitum. In this regard, it is possible to "forge" "extrinsic, social meanings" in such a way that "it is impossible to withhold judgement" --a judgement "forged" a priori by "forging" an "extrinsic, social meaning" which generates the grounds, the "evidences" for this "judgement." The punning meanings of "forged" collapse "Authority," "judgement," " contested values" "extrinsic, social meanings," as well as the split in the origins of the word in "faber" as "worker" and "maker." ( Eliot called Pound-, alluding to Dante--"il miglior faber"--) The "Mint" at which Pound's father worked in Philadelphia--omen, "site of origin," of his son's monetary "schemes" and economic "speculations"--turns into a Forge for the making of counterfeit coins. (Pound's ideas of the American monetary system "forged" to create an overthrow of the one in existence.) In turn, Bernstein's "judgement impossible to withhold" is of "forms {that} do have extrinsic, social meanings that are forged through a contestation of values." This judgement, based on being "forged through a contestation of values" creating "extrinsic, social meanings"is then subject to the collapsing energies of the pun, "forged." Why is it then "impossible to withhold judgement" unless that "authority" who demands "judgement impossible to withhold" has "forged" ahead of time the "extrinsic, social meanings," by which the "subject" is forced to a judgement "impossible to withold?" The "subject" is placed in the position of being as it were coerced into the position of not withholding judgement, and a judgment which it is presumed to be, msut be, consistent with that of the "authority." As a Russian artist has put it: "Language is a fascism not because it silences and censors, but because it forces one to speak." (Is this not what torture is for after all? Many accounts by persons who have undergone torture report that it is not "the truth" one way or another that the torturer cares about--but that the person being tortured is "forced to speak." The "greatest crime" in the eyes of the torturer is not withholding information so much as withholding speech. Hence the continual citing of the worthlessness of information extracted under torture as far as information goes. What the torturer is demanding is speech "impossible to withhold," regardless of "content." ) When one is told that "extrinsic, social meanings" forged through "a contestation of values" make it impossible to withhold judgement-- this is setting up the "poet-critic" as a superior "judge" to the actual Law, which did indeed find it impossible to withhold judgement on Pound, and indicted him for treason, since time immemorial considered one of the most heinous and despicable of transgressions. In a sense, is not Bernstein's position similar to Pound's own? In that, in both cases, the poet-critic is "forging" their own justice and authority in order to align themselves with what each one sees as those "extrinsic, social meanings forged of a contestation of values?" And is it not unexpected that under such circumstances, each might find the other to be the "forger" aspect of "faber"? Or, in a sense the forger who sets out to overthrow the father? The father of the Mint, and the "miglior faber" of the Cantos? (In Deleuze's re-formulation of Masochism, the one being beaten is the father.) from the online dictionary re "to forge" v.tr. 1. a. To form (metal, for example) by heating in a forge and beating or hammering into shape. b. To form (metal) by a mechanical or hydraulic press. 2. To give form or shape to, especially by means of careful effort: forge a treaty; forge a close relationship. 3. To fashion or reproduce for fraudulent purposes; counterfeit: forge a signature. v.intr. 1. To work at a forge or smithy. 2. To make a forgery or counterfeit. [Middle English, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *faurga, from Latin fabrica, from faber, worker.] f ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:25:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Creeley review in NY Times In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080224204018.063636b8@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable amen. On 2/24/08 8:44 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > I'm one of those influenced by Pieces, though any > similarity between my work and Language is > coincidental (hell, there were a lot of us > working that way before a brand name got attached > to it), and I also agree about Later. I didn't > say anything about the post-70s books, which I > love. I think he'd found a new way to work by then. >=20 > Mark >=20 > At 02:33 PM 2/24/2008, you wrote: >> agree w/ all you say, mark, except that Pieces seemed to have influenced >> some Lang poets & others, & Later & other later books are as strong as h= is >> early writing--stronger than that it doesn't get. >> charles altieri has such insightful writing on creeley--what he was doin= g, >> existentially, in each period of his work, in an essay on creeley & merw= in, >> in Enlarging the Temple. >> best >> ruth l. >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2/24/08 10:06 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: >>=20 >>> August Kleinzahler, in his necessarily brief >>> review in today's Times, >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/Kleinzahler-t.html?ref=3Db= ooks >>> , agrees with Simic that the best work is the >>> early work, but he hardly dismisses everything >>> that came after, and the tone is in marked >>> contrast--pure celebration. And not a hint of a hidden agenda. Made my = day. >>>=20 >>> I think it's fair to say, as Kleinzahler does, >>> that the books of the late sixties and seventies >>> are uneven (though I like much of that work more >>> than Leinzahler does, and I continue to be >>> mystified by the lack of attention to poems like >>> Numbers, The Door, and The Finger, all, by >>> Creeley's standards, long poems), but he has the >>> grace to let Creeley speak about it himself. Here's the fimnal paragrap= h: >>>=20 >>> "Creeley wrote and published a great deal over a >>> lengthy career. Once into the =A1=AF70s, the >>> distinctive early style seemed to harden into >>> mannerism. Creeley was casting about during these >>> years. Always a risk-taker, always restless, he >>> had become impatient with his earlier method. =A1=B0I >>> grew inexorably bored with the tidy containment >>> of clusters of words on single pieces of paper >>> called =A1=AEpoems=A1=AF =A1=A9 =A1=AEthis will really get them, wrap >>> it up. ...=A1=AF I could see nothing in my life nor >>> those of others adjacent that supported this >>> single hits theory,=A1=B1 Creeley wrote in 1974. Like >>> the painters and musicians he admired and liked >>> to collaborate with, Robert Creeley was one of >>> those artists who refused to let himself be bored >>> by his own art. The reader will find very little >>> to be bored by in this brilliant, essential volume." >>>=20 >>> Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Freind, William Joseph" Subject: Patti Smith and Janet Hamill in South Jersey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Patti Smith and Janet Hamill will be performing at Rowan University in = Glassboro, NJ on Sunday, March 2 at 7:30. I've got a limited number of = free tickets; b/c if you're interested. Bill Freind ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:13:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I think that this does need to be discussed more, the relationship between language writing and politics. I can't speak for the male language writers, or all of the time about what happened on the east coast, but it seems to me that women writers, like Lyn Hejinian and Rosmarie Waldrop, were radically political in that, after the so-called failures of the revolution in the seventies, they turned inwards, trying to radically reconstruct consciousness, going even beyond the personal-is-political slogans to break the lyric 'I' for political purposes, screen it out from reading, and make people aware of patterns and structures--one of the most important being the ideologically suspect nature of grammar and syntax itself. So it's really strange to hear people talk about the obsessively technical, non-political nature of language poetry. I hear this side of the story so rarely these days that sometimes I think that I am just making it up. Have other people have written on the radical feminist nature of langauge poetry? Are there any feminist langauge writers who claim that project explicitly? I do think that such a project is there if you read either Lyn Hejinian or Rosmarie Waldop's poems. I suppose I may have to sit down and pick out a few distinctive examples to analyse eventually... On 2/24/08, David Chirot wrote: > Substitute, say, "language poetry" for "fascism" and the trajectory of > these invented lives would be much the same as they are for the busy > networks of real writers Bola=F1o knew from the inside out . . . > > Who said literature has no real power to affect history? Not Bola=F1o = =97 > for him, literature is an unnervingly protean, amoral force with > uncanny powers of self-invention, self-justification and > self-mythification. The mythmakers, he suggests, certainly do matter. > If Hitler had won, for instance, the not entirely absurd stories in > this encyclopedia would be the prevailing stories of the culture. Is > Nazi poetry an oxymoron? Not a bit of it, posits Bola=F1o. On the > contrary, it's all too possible. > > from Stacey D'Erasmo's review > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/D-Erasmo-t.html?ref=3Dboo= ks --- > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:49:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Erin Moure & Erica Kaufman at SPT 2/29 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Erica Kaufman & Erin Moure Friday, February 29, 2008 Timken Lecture Hall 7:30 p.m. Refreshments will be served Join us! erica kaufman is the author of several chapbooks, most recently civilizatio= n day (Open24Hours, Winter 2007) and censory impulse (an excerpt of her long poem of the same title) (Big Game Books, Fall 2007)= . kaufman holds an MFA from the New School and was the winner of the 2003 New School University Chapbook Contest. her poems can be found inPuppyflowers, Painted Bride Quarterly, Bombay Gin, The Mississippi Review, Unpleasant Event Schedule, the tiny, Turntable + Blue Light, 26, Aufgabe, LIT, among other places. essays and reviews can be found in The Poetry Project Newsletter, CutBank, Rain Taxi, Verse, and elsewhere. kaufman is currently a Ph.D. candidate at the CUNY Graduate Center. kaufman is als= o the co-curator/co-editor of Belladonna* and Belladonna Books. she lives in Brooklyn. Er=EDn Moure is a Canadian poet who lives in Montreal in French, writes in English, and translates poetry from Galician, Portuguese, French and Spanish into English. O Cadoiro, her most recent book (Anansi, 2007) plays with notions of lyric, fed by the medieval Galician-Portuguese repertoire of cantigas, and you can download the postface for it athttp://www.anansi.ca/ocadoiro/postface. Her Little Theatres, a book in English and Galician co-written by Elisa Sampedr=EDn, w= as shortlisted for the Griffin Prize, Pat Lowther Memorial Award, Governor General's Award, won the AJM Klein Prize, and was on the Globe 100 list for 2005. It appeared in late 2007 in Galician from Editorial Galaxia, as Teatri=F1os. Other recent books: O Cida= d=E1n (2002), and Sheep's Vigil by a Fervent Person (2001), a transelation from the Portuguese of Alberto Caeiro/Fernando Pessoa. Moure has also translated, with Robert Majzels, three book by Nicole Brossard, the latest of which is Notebook of Roses and Civilization (2007). Her translation of Galician poet Chus Pato's Charenton is now out from Shearsman Books in the UK and BuschekBooks in Ottawa. Moure is currently translating Chus Pato's Hordas de Escritura, has just completed a new book of poetry,O Resplandor, with Elisa Sampedr=ED= n, and is working on a long collaborative work with Oana Avasilichioaei, one segment of which is at http://jacketmagazine.com/32/k-avas-moure.shtml . Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Dana Teen Lomax, Interim Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.orgwww.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 00:29:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very interesting Jim. If you'll permit me an extension: I've recently become very interested in Heidegger's Zuhandenheit mode =20= of being. That is, the being of things, the beingness of which is =20 their readyness-to-hand, or their existence as equipment. It strikes =20 me that in what you're defining what is being described is the =20 equipment of an artform. That an artform has equipment necessary to =20 creating it is fairly obvious. Creating is essentially an activity, =20 and it is always going to be an activity done with something, and =20 that something is its equipment. in visual art, that something is the =20= list of tools necessary to manipulate the visual image, and I think =20 your classes of abstract structures seem pretty exhaustive, although =20 I'm not a visual artist. I will say, however, that it appears to be =20 an additive process, whereby your set of abstractions create a visual =20= image by starting with a blank and adding things to it in order to =20 reach the final product. It occurs to me that this is not exhaustive =20 as a great deal of visual art is also subtractive. I'm thinking here =20 of a kind of sculpture, whereby the sculptor starts with a blank and =20 then removes things from it in order to reach the final product. That =20= is to say, i think if you want to establish something that's truly =20 exhaustive, you have to incorporate the subtractive process. The =20 blank itself is something worth considering, and not just in visual =20 production, but also in sound, in text, and really anything I can =20 think of that has at its end something other than performance. I =20 don't know what the blank is in a performance, and for me it's =20 difficult to conceptualize. I'm not overly worried about that, =20 however, as I don't personally find performance to be particularly =20 interesting except as it leads to the creating of some other product, =20= be it a recording, a film, a painting, or a sculpture, or whatever. =20 But do you think it's possible then to extend your abstracts in the =20 following way: 1. The Implement 2. The Blank 3. The Methods of Impact Wherein in any circumstance of creating art, and not just auto-=20 generative production methods, what the work is is something that =20 began with a blank, wherein something or someone acted on that blank =20 with an implement in order to leave a record of it's activity through =20= some method or methods of impact. Here we have the page impacted by =20 letters through a writing implement, a screen impacted by light =20 through a computer, a canvas impacted by ink with a pen, etc. There are places where this doesn't seem to hold up for me, and that =20 would seem to indicate that this model has an inherent bias toward a =20 certain kind of visual work in it's metaphorical abstraction. I think =20= that's fine though. But the question to ask then is, what other =20 metaphors might be possible here? It's something to chew on for me, =20 so thanks for the post. Thanks, Jason On Feb 24, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > Here are some interesting passages from the Oulipo Compendium =20 > edited by > Harry Matthews. The first bunch are from Matthews's introduction. > > 12. It so happened that shortly after the creation of Surrealism, =20 > France > witnessed the birth--this time in the domain of mathematics--of =20 > anohter > avent-garde group called Bourbaki [1920's]. There can be no doubt =20 > that, when > they founded the Oulipo, Queneau and Le Lionnais, amateur =20 > mathematicians > that they were, had this group in mind. > > 13. When the Oulipo was conceived [1960], Bourbaki provided a =20 > counter-model > to the Surrealist group. > > 14. We can also say that the Oulipo is an homage to Bourbaki and an > imitation of Bourbaki. > > 15. At the same time, it is no less obviously a parody of Bourbaki, =20= > even a > profanation of Bourbaki. > . > . > . > 21. The aim of the Oulipo is to invent (or reinvent) restrictions of a > formal nature (constraintes) and propose them to enthusiasts =20 > interested in > composing literature. > > 22. An initial misunderstanding can thus be eliminated at once: as =20 > a group, > the Oulipo does not count the creation of literary works among its =20 > primary > aims. Whatever its other merits, a literary work that deserves to =20 > be called > Oulipian may have been written by a member of the Oulipo, but it =20 > may have > been written by a non-member. > > 23. It follows that truly Oulipian publications (those published in =20= > its > name) do not necessarily lay claim to the title of literary works. =20 > (Whence > certain critical misunderstandings, not always innocent). > . > . > . > 26. ...the Oulipo's work is collaborative. > > 34. The limiting and at the same time crucial role of mathematics in > Oulipian > art represents an intentional choice on the part of its founders. =20 > Their > basic > reason was that, in Queneau's and Le Lionnais's view, after the =20 > exhaustion > of the generative powerr of traditional constraints, only =20 > mathematics could > offer a way out between a nostalgic obstinacy with worn-out modes of > expression and an intellectually pathetic belief in "total freedom"... > . > . > . > 36....A definition: An Oulipian author is a rat who himself builds =20 > the maze > from which he sets out to escape. > > 37. It is clear from what has so far been said that Oulipian =20 > procedures are > as remote as possible from "automatic writing": and, more =20 > generally, from > the notion of any kind of literature whose strategic foundation is =20 > chance... > . > . > . > 39....It should be remembered that the Oulipo turned to Bourbaki =20 > for its > method, the "axiomatic method"....Constraints are presented in =20 > explicit and > systematic form and can be notated in the language of mathematical =20 > logic. > Oulipian texts thus become the literary consequences of these =20 > axioms... > > 40...."A text written according to a constraint describes the =20 > constraint." > [Or perhaps "models" the constraint.] "A text written according to a > constraint dependent on a mathematical theory utilises the non-trivial > theorems of the theory." > . > . > . > 47. The Oulipo has obviously not invented a form that can compare =20 > to the > sonnet. The conditions determining the appearance of a durable =20 > literary > form, whatever its nature, are far too complex to lie within reach =20 > of the > most determined individual or group, no matter how "gifted"... > . > . > . > 50. ....Francois Le Lionnais was a strict, integral Oulipian who =20 > never made > concessions. This meant that he devoted himself entirely to =20 > Oulipian theory > and did not himself write Oulipian texts, a task that he left to his > disciples--us--and to his friend, Raymond Queneau. Forthormore, the =20= > Oulipo > was for him no more than the first instance of a far vaster =20 > undertaking, one > that I hve called the "quest for a generalised Ou-x-po": and in =20 > fact he > founded not only an Oulipopo, the Ouvroir de litt=E9erature policiere > potentielle (or Worshop for Potential Detective Fiction, still > flourising),... but in addition an Oupeinpo for painting, an =20 > Oumathpo for > mathematics, ... and an Oucuipo for the art of cooking. And, =20 > following the > same model, he foresaw a general extension of potentiality to the =20 > entirety > of human activities, in other words a family of Ou-x-pos, the range =20= > of the > xs being potentially infinite and subject to recursive treatment, =20 > so that > there would be an Ou-(ou-x-po)-po, then an Ou-(ou-(ou-x-po)-po)-po, =20= > annd so > forth.... > . > . > . > 52. In conclusion, what is the Oulipo's general aesthetic policy? =20 > Certainly > Pythagorean, as is shown by the invention of "Queneau's numbers", a =20= > most > up-to-date version of the golden mean. But I shall say no more on this > point. In the words of the operetta, "Some secrets you don't give =20 > away." > > > This is from the entry named 'Machines for Writing' in the Oulipo > Compendium: > > "In the broadest sense of the word, every Oulipian technique can be =20= > thought > of as a writing machine." > > This is from 'What is the Oupeinpo?' in the Oulipo Compendium: > > 2. de peinture, for painting, but the term is used synecdochically, =20= > since > the Oupeinpo does not limit "painting" to the art of applying =20 > pigment. On > the contrary, it has no scruples about extending it to all the =20 > graphic and > plastic arts and it advocates not only the painter's brush and =20 > palette knife > but the draughtsman's pencil, the engraver's burin, the stucco-maker's > float, the tagger's spray-can, even the mouse of the electronic =20 > image-maker. > Camera and printing press are no strangers to it. And it makes a =20 > point of > encouraging needle and scalpel, larding-pin and chopper, spray-gun and > compressor, printer driver and pile-driver, laser and rolling-mill, =20= > and > field artillery (bombs if necessary), not to mention bare hands and =20= > digital > agility. Indeed, one of the Oupeinpo's objectives is to increase =20 > the range > of what is available to the painter in the way of material as well =20 > as of > materials, surfaces, techniques, procedures, subjects, viewpoints, =20 > theories, > and so on. > > 3. potentielle, potential: because the Oupeinpo itself produces no =20 > actual > paintings. It applies itself not to works but to the methods, =20 > arrangements, > manipulations, structures, and formal restrictions with which =20 > painters past, > present and future were, are and will be able to create their =20 > works. If it > does not reject what is manifest in works of art, it asserts that =20 > this is > the business of artists, patrons, and the world of viewers. Its own =20= > role is > to suggest "forms" or transformations where works exist as =20 > possibilities. We > hasten to add that its members do their best to become the first to =20= > keep > these forms from remaining empty by embodying them in examples." > > --- > > This is of particular interest to me at the moment as I write =20 > dbCinema, a > graphic synthesizer or movie painter. > > It occurs to me that if, in a generative visual program, something =20 > is making > marks on the screen, then we might as well say that a pen or brush is > involved. In this sense, generative visual art is all about creating > interesting brushes and ways to combine them. =46rom a software =20 > architecture > point of view, we may hypothesize that the fundamental classes or =20 > abstract > structures of generative visual art are > > 1. the brush/pen > 2. the canvas/screen > 3. the 'paint' > > Which is to say that if one creates flexible such classes and =20 > relations > between them (and gives each of these good, general, properties and > methods), one is on the way to being able to do anything doable in > generative visual software art. > > ja > http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 05:03:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: <578647560802242113j1088ddeer5a574a1474a993d3@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree. I think its very much there in Susan Howe and honestly, =20 saying that language poetry is non-political seems to me to be =20 woefully uninformed. It seems to me that if anything Language Poetry =20 is unavoidably political, it's approach to language being essentially =20= a political statement about resisting the suspicious role played by =20 speech in politics and government. On Feb 24, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Eireene Nealand wrote: > I think that this does need to be discussed more, the relationship > between language writing and politics. > > I can't speak for the male language writers, or all of the time about > what happened on the east coast, but it seems to me that women > writers, like Lyn Hejinian and Rosmarie Waldrop, were radically > political in that, after the so-called failures of the revolution in > the seventies, they turned inwards, trying to radically reconstruct > consciousness, going even beyond the personal-is-political slogans to > break the lyric 'I' for political purposes, screen it out from > reading, and make people aware of patterns and structures--one of the > most important being the ideologically suspect nature of grammar and > syntax itself. > > So it's really strange to hear people talk about the obsessively > technical, non-political nature of language poetry. > > I hear this side of the story so rarely these days that sometimes I > think that I am just making it up. Have other people have written on > the radical feminist nature of langauge poetry? Are there any feminist > langauge writers who claim that project explicitly? > > I do think that such a project is there if you read either Lyn > Hejinian or Rosmarie Waldop's poems. I suppose I may have to sit down > and pick out a few distinctive examples to analyse eventually... > > > On 2/24/08, David Chirot wrote: >> Substitute, say, "language poetry" for "fascism" and the =20 >> trajectory of >> these invented lives would be much the same as they are for the busy >> networks of real writers Bola=F1o knew from the inside out . . . >> >> Who said literature has no real power to affect history? Not =20 >> Bola=F1o =97 >> for him, literature is an unnervingly protean, amoral force with >> uncanny powers of self-invention, self-justification and >> self-mythification. The mythmakers, he suggests, certainly do =20 >> matter. >> If Hitler had won, for instance, the not entirely absurd stories in >> this encyclopedia would be the prevailing stories of the culture. Is >> Nazi poetry an oxymoron? Not a bit of it, posits Bola=F1o. On the >> contrary, it's all too possible. >> >> from Stacey D'Erasmo's review >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/D-Erasmo-t.html?=20 >> ref=3Dbooks --- >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:53:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Odelius & Belz - The Pierre Bourdieu Memorial Reading Series - ISU, Normal, Illinois March 3 Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, poetry and poetics , ILSTUCREATIVEWRITING-L@LISTSERV.ilstu.edu, "Odelius, Kristy L" , Aaron Belz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please join us next Monday at 7pm in the CVA Gallery: For the inaugural reading in The Pierre Bourdieu Memorial Reading Series (see end of press release for more information about this series). Kristy Odelius & Aaron Belz. KRISTY ODELIUS is an Assistant Professor of English at North Park University. Her work in a variety of venues, including Chicago Review, Notre Dame Review, ACM, GutCult, La Petite Zine, Diagram, etc. Her poems are anthologized in The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century (Cracked Slab Books). Her chapbook Bee Spit was published by dancing girl press in December 2007 AARON BELZ, from St. Louis, is known nationally through his many publications in journals like LIT, Fence, Court Green, Painted Bride Quarterly, Black Clock, and Fine Madness, as well as through his series, Observable Readings (http://observable.org) which has showcased more than a hundred poets since 2003. Of his first book, The Bird Hoverer (BlazeVOX, 2007), The Boston Review writes, "These impressive, loopy poems are touched by a raw grace of mind and nimble phrasing." JACKET describes Belz as "a poet who has retained a sense of childlike amazement. His eclectic reference points attest to a wide-eyed fascination with the world. He commingles high and low culture, the historical and the contemporary." His second collection of poems, _Direction_, is forthcoming from Persea Books. More information about Aaron Belz is available at http://belz.net. *** The "Pierre Bourdieu Memorial Readings Series" is so-named to commemorate the contributions of this important sociologist to a critical understanding of a range of phenomena specific to the field of cultural production against which, in which, and through which social actors such as writers, readers, students and professors create, consecrate, fetishize, and disparage. Bourdieu's theories and methodologies provide unusually perspicuous tools with which to correct subtle and pervasive injustices in the field and to envision the possibility of a community of friendly makers less beholden to the illusions of aestheticism, the fetish of the author, and the preciosity of writing -- for a closer, sparer, clearer relation to use, wonder, kindness, being, love, world. The "Pierre Bourdieu Memorial Readings Series" is associated with and spiritually sponsored by MANDORLA: NEW WRITING FROM THE AMERICAS, a magazine we are particularly proud to have here at ISU. Gabriel --- Celebration ... is self-restraint, is attentiveness, is questioning, is meditating, is awaiting, is the step over into the more wakeful glimpse of the wonder -- the wonder that a world is worlding around us at all, that there are beings rather than nothing, that things are and we ourselves are in their midst, that we ourselves are and yet barely know who we are, and barely know that we do not know this. - Martin Heidegger -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ http://rhodeislandnotebook.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:25:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Podcast: "On Writing with Catherine Wagner" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Catherine Wagner's February 15 discussion "On Writing" at Vanderbilt University is now available as a podcast. Press Release < http://www.vanderbilt.edu/news/releases/2008/2/18/podcast-on-writing-with-catherine-wagner > Stream or Download audio (mp3, 128kbps, 68.7MB) Tiny URL Enjoy, Tom Orange ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:23:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Joe Massey's OUT OF LIGHT is now available from Kitchen Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline One of my FAVORITE living poets, Joe Massey, has a new chap out! This is the site to see, and order: http://KitchenPressChapbooks.blogspot.com You'll see blurbs for the book on the site, but not all of them. Joe sent me some of the others, and I have to say MY FAVORITE is, "Your poetry is like a bramble in my anus. And not in a good way." HEHEHE! This blurb from Anonymous! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:32:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: FW: Continental Review & weblog: NEW! A Portrait Of David Baptiste Chirot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline from Nicholas Manning: > Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:54:00 +0100 > Subject: LIVE > From: manning@clipper.ens.fr > To: davidbchirot@hotmail.com > > Hi David, > > We're live! - www.thecontinentalreview.com. I've also written an > appreciation on my weblog: www.thenewermetaphysicals.blogspot.com. > > So, do spread the word and don't hesitate to spam everyone you know to let > them know it's out there. I'm very proud to be finally featuring this. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:02:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium In-Reply-To: <3A0E19D4-6C58-45E6-B2C0-21FE08BB3BCC@myuw.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit that's a pretty cool extension of the idea, Jason. i'd say that takes it further. generalizes it usefully. there's the philosopher in you as architect of ideas. these sorts of structures are very useful to artist-programmers. and they're useful, well, to anybody who is dealing with art in any number of ways. these sorts of abstract classes are an attempt to provide a good starting point to mull over in relation to where one is going. i came up with the more specific version i offered not too long ago. way after i started dbcinema. so dbcinema contains no screen/canvas/blank class. but it would profit from it. and it contains no paint/ink/'methods of impact' class and, again, it would profit from it. it would profit by these ideas opening up possibilities, mainly, and relevantly organizing already-inherant possibilities in the existing dbcinema architecture. Object-oriented art-making? But the objects are instantiations of abstract classes, not items in the gallery. Object-oriented art-making as methodology. That's what object-oriented programming is, a methodology. Not a programming language, for instance. A methodology that can be and usually is used when one creates a programming language. Or when one creates a program/'abstract machine'. Perhaps we've created a new field? Or just found a handy way to synthesize a philosophical approach and an architectural approach in the creation of art or art machines? Or what? ja http://vispo.com > Very interesting Jim. If you'll permit me an extension: > > I've recently become very interested in Heidegger's Zuhandenheit mode > of being. That is, the being of things, the beingness of which is > their readyness-to-hand, or their existence as equipment. It strikes > me that in what you're defining what is being described is the > equipment of an artform. That an artform has equipment necessary to > creating it is fairly obvious. Creating is essentially an activity, > and it is always going to be an activity done with something, and > that something is its equipment. in visual art, that something is the > list of tools necessary to manipulate the visual image, and I think > your classes of abstract structures seem pretty exhaustive, although > I'm not a visual artist. I will say, however, that it appears to be > an additive process, whereby your set of abstractions create a visual > image by starting with a blank and adding things to it in order to > reach the final product. It occurs to me that this is not exhaustive > as a great deal of visual art is also subtractive. I'm thinking here > of a kind of sculpture, whereby the sculptor starts with a blank and > then removes things from it in order to reach the final product. That > is to say, i think if you want to establish something that's truly > exhaustive, you have to incorporate the subtractive process. The > blank itself is something worth considering, and not just in visual > production, but also in sound, in text, and really anything I can > think of that has at its end something other than performance. I > don't know what the blank is in a performance, and for me it's > difficult to conceptualize. I'm not overly worried about that, > however, as I don't personally find performance to be particularly > interesting except as it leads to the creating of some other product, > be it a recording, a film, a painting, or a sculpture, or whatever. > But do you think it's possible then to extend your abstracts in the > following way: > > 1. The Implement > 2. The Blank > 3. The Methods of Impact > > Wherein in any circumstance of creating art, and not just auto- > generative production methods, what the work is is something that > began with a blank, wherein something or someone acted on that blank > with an implement in order to leave a record of it's activity through > some method or methods of impact. Here we have the page impacted by > letters through a writing implement, a screen impacted by light > through a computer, a canvas impacted by ink with a pen, etc. > > There are places where this doesn't seem to hold up for me, and that > would seem to indicate that this model has an inherent bias toward a > certain kind of visual work in it's metaphorical abstraction. I think > that's fine though. But the question to ask then is, what other > metaphors might be possible here? It's something to chew on for me, > so thanks for the post. > > Thanks, > Jason ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:48:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Articles, reviews Re Visual Poetry/Public/Popular Visual Arts & Signs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In Mosaics, an Artist's Lasting Impression - New York Times The public works of Manny Vega--"Hip Hop-Byzantine" preserving/honoring history of El Barrio and his Candomble Faith. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/nyregion/25citywide.html?ref=arts --- Reviews of New Visual Books - New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/Heller-t.html --- books on/of MAD magazine, works of Herge (Tintin) Basil Wolverton, Havana Deco & B'Way Lights/Signs Museum Showcases American Signs - New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/arts/AP-Signs-of-the-Times.html?_r=1&oref=login --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:14:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B ola=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wow, it amazes me how the incredibly stupid people get to wiggle into the Times these days. What's the point of that paper if they continue to employ such DISASTROUSLY stupid people? THE GRAND PIANO is rife with details of politics which are 180 degrees turned away fascism. And to be honest, this is an attack so severe, and weird, that it makes me wonder if people who claim to know poetry saying such things really know anything at all about poetry? It reminds me of a poet who has many degrees, teaches creative writing at one of the more boring schools, AND, this poet won the MacArthur award for being a GENIUS (cough-gag!), but said to me when Alice Notley's book MYSTERIES OF SMALL HOUSES came out, "Oh no, I'm not interested in her, I can't stand LANGUAGE poets!" So I opened the book, which I had just the previous day read from cover to cover, and opened to a particular page to show the GENIUS (gagging! again!) Notley's line about how the LANGUAGE poets arrived on their Gilligan's Island. It's not just uninformed, but in their UNINFORMEDNESS these people misinform one another with tattletale qualities they must have perfected in grade school. I have NO degrees of any kind and knew perfectly well that Alice Notley is NOT a LANGUAGE poet for cripes sake! GEESH! Oy, the crap will not cease squeezing out of the tedious, the mediocre, the poets awaiting their special podiums of fire in the after world. If I have to share it with them I'm not dying, that's all there is to it! An eternity of open readings with these dolts has GOT TO BE some kind of working off time in purgatory! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Jo Malo Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Nobody mocks the inherent elitism and tyranny of literary movements quite like Roberto Bola=F1o. His characters eerily exemplify this narcissism, also rife among the rebellious avant garde, and eventually most face absurdity. He has the chilling ability to portray the complicity of both powerful and confused ordinary people, each of whom believes art is more or less than it is. Bola=F1o's theme of fascists as patron/artists deconstructs the value of the arts. How many of us are comfortable in the delusion that artists who are racist, sexist, etc. are harmless and should be tolerated for the sake of their precious talent? Mary Jo Malo On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 3:46 PM, David Chirot wrot= e: > Substitute, say, "language poetry" for "fascism" and the trajectory of > these invented lives would be much the same as they are for the busy > networks of real writers Bola=F1o knew from the inside out . . . > > Who said literature has no real power to affect history? Not Bola=F1o =97 > for him, literature is an unnervingly protean, amoral force with > uncanny powers of self-invention, self-justification and > self-mythification. The mythmakers, he suggests, certainly do matter. > If Hitler had won, for instance, the not entirely absurd stories in > this encyclopedia would be the prevailing stories of the culture. Is > Nazi poetry an oxymoron? Not a bit of it, posits Bola=F1o. On the > contrary, it's all too possible. > > from Stacey D'Erasmo's review > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/D-Erasmo-t.html?ref=3Dbook= s --- > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 08:58:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Subject: save BEYOND BAROQUE send an e-mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Big Bridge Readers, I urge you to send an e-mail to save Beyond = Baroque. Beyond Baroque is the most important venue for Poetry and the = Arts in Southern California. Thanks for your efforts. Best, Big Bridge HELP PROTECT BEYOND BAROQUE JUST DAYS TO GO! Because of an outpouring from the local and national community, LA city = government is aware of how much Beyond Baroque is valued here, across = the United States and world. Thank you! Our Councilman Bill Rosendahl has recommended a 25-year lease extension, = but time is running out. OUR LEASE HAS NOT YET BEEN SIGNED AND EXPIRES SATURDAY MARCH I ST. We have been working on this for five years, and are almost there, = thanks to you, Beyond Baroque's supporters. You have proved a force to = be reckoned with. Let our councilman, who is supportive, and the city attorney, who is = not, know Beyond Baroque must not be destroyed, will not be sacrificed, = and why. USE YOUR POWER! Here is the contact information for Councilman Bill Rosendahl: City Hall Office 200 N. Spring Street Rm415 Los Angeles, CA 90012 (213) 473-7011 (213) 473-6926 Fax Email: Councilman.Rosendahl@lacity.org The contact for the City Attorney is=20 800 City Hall East=20 200 North Main Street Los Angeles, CA 90012=20 Phone: (213) 978-8100 Fax: (213) 978-8312=20 Email: Rocky.delgadillo@lacity.org Please CC all present and past correspondence to Beyond Baroque at = beyondbaroque@aol.com=20 =20 PS. STAY TUNED FOR A POSSIBLE ASSEMBLY AT CITY COUNCIL=20 Check our website www.beyondbaroque.org and our MySpace page: = www.myspace.com/beyondbaroque =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:42:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=B1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE How many of us are comfortable in the delusion that non-artists who are rac= ist, sexist, etc. are harmless and should be tolerated for the lack of thei= r precious talent? Or that racist, sexist, fascist, authoritarians should n= ot be tolerated at all. the first sacrifice that must be made in order to live in an open society i= s that one must commit to tolerating repugnant ideas. that repugnant ideas = are often expressed beautifully is a warning to all thinking people that in= and of itself demands to be heard. the value of a talented pig is that it = reminds us to separate the aesthetic from the political for fear of being l= ured by beauty into a realm of horrors. On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Mary Jo Malo wrote: > Nobody mocks the inherent elitism and tyranny of literary movements > quite like Roberto Bola=C3=B1o. His characters eerily exemplify this > narcissism, also rife among the rebellious avant garde, and eventually > most face absurdity. He has the chilling ability to portray the > complicity of both powerful and confused ordinary people, each of whom > believes art is more or less than it is. Bola=C3=B1o's theme of fascists = as > patron/artists deconstructs the value of the arts. How many of us are > comfortable in the delusion that artists who are racist, sexist, etc. > are harmless and should be tolerated for the sake of their precious > talent? > > Mary Jo Malo > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 3:46 PM, David Chirot wr= ote: >> Substitute, say, "language poetry" for "fascism" and the trajectory of >> these invented lives would be much the same as they are for the busy >> networks of real writers Bola=C3=B1o knew from the inside out . . . >> >> Who said literature has no real power to affect history? Not Bola=C3=B1o= =E2=80=94 >> for him, literature is an unnervingly protean, amoral force with >> uncanny powers of self-invention, self-justification and >> self-mythification. The mythmakers, he suggests, certainly do matter. >> If Hitler had won, for instance, the not entirely absurd stories in >> this encyclopedia would be the prevailing stories of the culture. Is >> Nazi poetry an oxymoron? Not a bit of it, posits Bola=C3=B1o. On the >> contrary, it's all too possible. >> >> from Stacey D'Erasmo's review >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/D-Erasmo-t.html?ref=3Dboo= ks --- >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:09:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT here's an example of how a screen/canvas/blank class would have been (may still be, if doable) useful in dbcinema. a friend asked if dbcinema could create print-size bitmaps, ie, real biggies. currently, it creates bitmaps of whatever resolution the monitor is set at. and that goes up to around 3000 pixels or so, depending on the monitor and video card. whereas print-size bitmaps are much bigger if they're painting-sized. not to say you can't work on the bitmaps dbcinema produces to make them bigger, but it would be better to have an option whereby you can set the size of what it produces. in other words, an option to mess with the properties of the canvas/screen/blank. and this is more easily done if the canvas/screen/blank has its own class, rather than a situation where its properties are incidentally (and perhaps also somewhat mysteriously) scattered throughout the code of the program. a canvas/screen/blank class rescues the concept from the realm of spagetti code and places it in a context where its properties and methods could be developed more broadly and easily. “The cost of adding a feature isn't just the time it takes to code it. The cost also includes the addition of an obstacle to future expansion. ... The trick is to pick the features that don't fight each other.” John Carmack, main ID programmer ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:55:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) I am, for one, but a lot depends on what meanings "delusion," "harmless," and "tolerated" have here. Not to mention "etc." But, yes, I'm comfortable with all that. More or less. Hal "Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck." --George Carlin Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Feb 25, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Mary Jo Malo wrote: > How many of us are comfortable in the delusion that artists who are > racist, sexist, etc. are harmless and should be tolerated for the > sake of > their precious talent? > > Mary Jo Malo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 01:45:02 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: text/sound compositions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hello all! I have just released my new collection "Molly B. Whips It Out" with text/sound compositions. (It has unfortunately been very much delayed, due to technical problems as well as because of my chronic illness.) Eight of the 19 tracks on this CD are available on the web for free (together with eight additional tracks not on the CD at all). See http://www.nisus.se/molly/ The CD contains text/sound compositions, influenced by the concrete poetry and sound compositions of the 60's, such as the work made by people like Bengt-Emil Johnsson, Ake Hodell or Henri Chopin, Charles Dodge and Charles Amirkhanian. I used the computer for filtering texts (Macintosh Hypercard!), synthesizing speech from text and also in order to add some sampled instruments for some of the pieces, for instance some effects with percussion and bass clarinet. Karl-Erik Tallmo Stockholm, Sweden -- _________________________________________________________________ KARL-ERIK TALLMO, writer, artist, musician etc. ARTWORK, WRITINGS etc.: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/ SOUND & MUSIC: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/sound/ MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com COPYRIGHT HISTORY: http://www.copyrighthistory.com _________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:05:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: The Invention of Culture, and a reading in Ithaca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Announcing The Invention of Culture, a new poetry book by Lisa Samuels, just out with Shearsman Books, The Invention of Culture is available through SPD, www.shearsman.com, and anywhere with a bookstore devoted to making present poetry presently available. Also announcing an upcoming reading for anyone near Ithaca New York: The reading will be at No Radio Records , 312 E. Seneca St. in downtown Ithaca on Saturday, March 8 at 7:00 PM. The reading is free & open to the public. If you come, do say hello - I'm presently a visiting scholar of Literary Arts at Brown University, for the spring semester 2008. Happy to meet Poetics person near. I'll also be reading in London April 15, details to follow. Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:12:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve russell Subject: Re: FW: Continental Review & weblog: NEW! A Portrait Of David Baptiste Chirot In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit O MY GOD I COULDN"T GET OUT OF THE VIDEO BAR AND THAT AWEFUL DATED TECHNOFUNK SONDTRACK WAS... the Chirot video was excellent. Beware the video bar, that thing was evil. David Chirot wrote: from Nicholas Manning: > Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:54:00 +0100 > Subject: LIVE > From: manning@clipper.ens.fr > To: davidbchirot@hotmail.com > > Hi David, > > We're live! - www.thecontinentalreview.com. I've also written an > appreciation on my weblog: www.thenewermetaphysicals.blogspot.com. > > So, do spread the word and don't hesitate to spam everyone you know to let > them know it's out there. I'm very proud to be finally featuring this. > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:24:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sara Wintz Subject: new from :::the press gang!::: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline &--------------- :::*the press gang*::: announces distribution of its second chapbook, *one might*, by karen volkman-- starting T*O*D*A*Y! * **from *one might*...* --- One might start here, with the blank specimen, not thinking too much or wanting to go home. Entrance is ample, the peak of the blank, a kind of acme in the ether. * --- *letterpressed on vellum, *silkscreen line images, *accordion bound, hard-cover. karen volkman's books of poetry are *crash's law *(norton, 1996) and *spar*(univ of iowa press, 2002), which received the iowa poetry prize and the james laughlin award from the academy of american poets. her book of sonnets, *nomina*, is forthcoming from boa editions in spring 2008. her poems have appeared in numerous anthologies, including the *best american poetry*, *the pushcart prize anthology*, *american poets in the 21st century: the new poetics*, and *the gertrude stein awards in innovative poetry*. she teaches in the mfa program at the university of montana in missoula. *...one might* is available @ twelve dollars from :::the press gang::: via paypal at our *new* website- www.pressgangsters.com (click 'purchase' from the main page) -or at your local bookstore! :::the press gang::: is a small press based out of tuscaloosa (AL) and brooklyn (NY) by and publishing younger avant writers. :::press gang::: titles are co-published by sara wintz and cristiana baik. * *p.s. previous titles are still available! *intricate systems * by juliana spahr *letterpressed on arches text wove, *cover is fabriano elle erres, *single pamphlet, bound. $12 yrs, sara + cristiana :::the press gang::: ------------------------------& ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:15:35 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: A<86427D98-B858-4809-B901-1C5C08817DEE@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable which is also to say how many of us are comfortable with being asked if we are confortable with delusions?=20 =20 Wystan=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2008 11:55 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - = NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism I am, for one, but a lot depends on what meanings "delusion," = "harmless," and "tolerated" have here. Not to mention "etc." But, yes, I'm comfortable with all that. More or less. Hal "Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck." --George Carlin Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Feb 25, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Mary Jo Malo wrote: > How many of us are comfortable in the delusion that artists who are=20 > racist, sexist, etc. are harmless and should be tolerated for the sake = > of their precious talent? > > Mary Jo Malo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:15:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, It is amazing all your analysis, endeavor has the purpose of making things easier, therefore, more productive: "a canvas/screen/blank class rescues the concept from the realm of spagetti code and places it in a context where its properties and methods could be developed more broadly and easily"; whereas what is of worth in art is almost alwayscreated through these cracks, what you call "spaghetti codes," I assume, in a derisive way. (What is a spaghetti code anyway, is it a specific technical term or a nickname what the software geek can not explain? "There are more things in heaven and earthe, Horation, than are dreamt of in your philosophy?" Do you think Hamlet is passe now, another fool into the dustbin of history, as Ramsfeld used to say about the Iraq War and his generals who wanted more soldiers, "old thinking." He did not believe in the existence of resistance.) "The trick is to pick the features that don't fight each other." Yes it would be great to phantasize a world without conflict, in the software programmers' (but altimately software companies') image. "The trick is to pick the features that don't fight each other" represents exactly what I mean by the lack of skepticism, an uncritical enthusiasm about the computer technology among poets using it, how insiduously -not neutrally at all- the software imposes its own structure on reality, forcing its user -who more than anything is interested in the "efficiency" of the procedure- to eliminate what does not fit it. What we have at the end is a reality without spaghetti, what I suppose one can call a no-carb diet of it. D. H. Lawrence said that most people live under an umbrella on the surface of which inside are drawn stars and the sun. The job of the artist is to tear away that umbrella and reveal the true sky. I think Lawrence's statement must be thought over very carefully in our artistic enthusiasm about the boundless virtues and promises of this new tecnology. Ciao, Murat On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > here's an example of how a screen/canvas/blank class would have been (may > still be, if doable) useful in dbcinema. > > a friend asked if dbcinema could create print-size bitmaps, ie, real > biggies. currently, it creates bitmaps of whatever resolution the monitor > is > set at. and that goes up to around 3000 pixels or so, depending on the > monitor and video card. whereas print-size bitmaps are much bigger if > they're painting-sized. not to say you can't work on the bitmaps dbcinema > produces to make them bigger, but it would be better to have an option > whereby you can set the size of what it produces. in other words, an > option > to mess with the properties of the canvas/screen/blank. and this is more > easily done if the canvas/screen/blank has its own class, rather than a > situation where its properties are incidentally (and perhaps also somewhat > mysteriously) scattered throughout the code of the program. a > canvas/screen/blank class rescues the concept from the realm of spagetti > code and places it in a context where its properties and methods could be > developed more broadly and easily. > > "The cost of adding a feature isn't just the time it takes to code it. The > cost also includes the addition of an obstacle to future expansion. ... > The > trick is to pick the features that don't fight each other." > John Carmack, main ID programmer > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:10:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mathew Timmons Subject: C-Society at Betalevel Sunday March 2 at 7pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline C-Society Sunday, March 2 at 7pm at betalevel (http://betalevel.com) directions below http://betalevel.com/2008/03/02/c-society/ Please join us for C-Society an evening of collaborative readings, featuring Noah Eli Gordon and Joshua Marie Wilkinson reading from their recent book, Figures for a Darkroom Voice, published by Tarpaulin Sky Press. Harold Abramowitz, Amanda Ackerman, Allison Carter and Mathew Timmons will also be reading from collaborative projects. "In Figures for a Darkroom Voice the rhetorical twisting of Noah Eli Gordon's abstractions meld with the ominous narratives of Joshua Marie Wilkinson's fragments, turning Wallace Steven's notion of a supreme fiction toward a supreme friction, one where the work of these two poets is fused into a voice as singular as it is sinister." Noah Eli Gordon is the author of A Fiddle Pulled from the Throat of a Sparrow (New Issues, 2007), Figures for a Darkroom Voice (in collaboration with Joshua Marie Wilkinson, Tarpaulin Sky, 2007), Inbox (Blaze VOX, 2006), The Area of Sound Called the Subtone (Ahsahta Press, 2004), and The Frequencies (Tougher Disguises, 2003), as well as numerous chapbooks, including That We Come to a Consensus (in collaboration with Sara Veglahn, Ugly Duckling Presse, 2005). He teaches at the University of Colorado at Denver. Joshua Marie Wilkinson was born and raised in Seattle and has since lived in Arizona, Slovakia, Ireland, and Colorado. He is the author of three books, most recently Figures for a Darkroom Voice (with Noah Eli Gordon, Tarpaulin Sky P) and two more books are forthcoming next year: The Book of Whispering in the Projection Booth (Tupelo) and a book of conversations between younger poets and their mentors (U of Iowa Press). He lives in Chicago and teaches at Loyola University. Harold Abramowitz is a writer and teacher from Los Angeles, author of a chapbook, Three Column Table, from Insert Press. With Mathew Timmons, Harold co-curates the Late Night Snack literary cabaret series at BetaLevel in L.A., and with Amanda Ackerman, he co-edits a short form literary press called eohippus labs. Harold also has a book, Dear Dearly Departed, to be published in the near future by Palm Press and a micro-book, Sunday, or a Summer's Day, to be published in the near future by PS Books. He teaches at Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science in Los Angeles. Amanda Ackerman lives in Los Angeles where she writes and teaches. Along with Harold Abramowitz, she is co-editor of the press eohippus labs. She is also a member of BetaLevel. Her work has been published or is forthcoming in flim forum; String of Small Machines; The Physical Poets; and the Encyclopedia Project, Volume F-K. Allison Carter is an LA based designer, teacher and writer. Her work has appeared in Fence, 5_Trope, P-Queue and others. Her first book, A Fixed, Formal Arrangement, is forthcoming in August 2008 from Les Figues Press. She currently edits P S Books. Mathew Timmons is guest editor of Trepan, co-edits Insert Press, co-hosts LA-Lit, and co-curates Betalevel's Late Night Snack. His writings appear in Manufactured Inspirato, Greetings, Disaster, Sleepingfish, P-Queue, Holy Beep!, Outside Voices 2008 Sound Poetry Anthology, Flim Forum, The Physical Poets Vol. 2 and PSBooks. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Directions to Betalevel 1. Find yourself in front of "FULL HOUSE RESTAURANT" located at 963 N. Hill Street in Chinatown, Los Angeles 2. Locate the narrow alley on the left hand side of Full House. 3. Walk about 20 feet down the alley (away from the street). 4. Stop. 5. Notice dumpster on your right hand side. 6. Take a right and continue down the alley. 7. Exercise caution so as not trip on the wobbly cement blocks underfoot 8. The entrance to Betalevel is located 10 yards down on left side, behind a red door, down a black staircase. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 23:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jared schickling Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?Windows-1252?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First off thanks for this discussion, politics vis-a-vis the literary. Tho= ugh I haven't read Bolano (it's now on the list), the Times reviewer seems = to suggest that all visions and promotions of those visions constitute fasc= ism. Rather, fascism (its tenets parcelled out in detail by plenty of obse= rvers elsewhere) constitutes a particular ideological stranglehold. Langpo= , or any literary movement, turns (or threatens to turn) fascist only at th= e point where it becomes intolerant of alternative modes of being. Perhaps= langpo is subject to this charge only for the veracity and (dare I say) ef= fectiveness of its critique of the "self" as an organizing term, of the sel= f as the site where meaning occurs, of the representational (of "outside" r= eference) in face of the self-referential nature of the signifier. What ma= ny observers fail to mention is Language practioners' eventual renunciation= of certain prior criticisms. Dan Chiasson, for example, notes Ron Sillima= n and Susan Howe's ventures into autobiography. I recently came across an = expansive poem by Steve McCaffery in the newest edition of the Colorado Rev= iew that most certainly engages this planet, that is something more than a = fetishistic inquiry into the material quality of the word. And of course t= here's Lyn Hejinian's "My Life."=20 =20 Jared Schickling =20 =20 =20 > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:42:14 -0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: Re: N= azi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/= langpo & fascism> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > How many of us are c= omfortable in the delusion that non-artists who are racist, sexist, etc. ar= e harmless and should be tolerated for the lack of their precious talent? O= r that racist, sexist, fascist, authoritarians should not be tolerated at a= ll.> > the first sacrifice that must be made in order to live in an open so= ciety is that one must commit to tolerating repugnant ideas. that repugnant= ideas are often expressed beautifully is a warning to all thinking people = that in and of itself demands to be heard. the value of a talented pig is t= hat it reminds us to separate the aesthetic from the political for fear of = being lured by beauty into a realm of horrors.> > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, = Mary Jo Malo wrote:> > > Nobody mocks the inherent elitism and tyranny of l= iterary movements> > quite like Roberto Bola=F1o. His characters eerily exe= mplify this> > narcissism, also rife among the rebellious avant garde, and = eventually> > most face absurdity. He has the chilling ability to portray t= he> > complicity of both powerful and confused ordinary people, each of who= m> > believes art is more or less than it is. Bola=F1o's theme of fascists = as> > patron/artists deconstructs the value of the arts. How many of us are= > > comfortable in the delusion that artists who are racist, sexist, etc.> = > are harmless and should be tolerated for the sake of their precious> > ta= lent?> >> > Mary Jo Malo> >> > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 3:46 PM, David Chiro= t wrote:> >> Substitute, say, "language poetry" fo= r "fascism" and the trajectory of> >> these invented lives would be much th= e same as they are for the busy> >> networks of real writers Bola=F1o knew = from the inside out . . .> >>> >> Who said literature has no real power to = affect history? Not Bola=F1o =97> >> for him, literature is an unnervingly = protean, amoral force with> >> uncanny powers of self-invention, self-justi= fication and> >> self-mythification. The mythmakers, he suggests, certainly= do matter.> >> If Hitler had won, for instance, the not entirely absurd st= ories in> >> this encyclopedia would be the prevailing stories of the cultu= re. Is> >> Nazi poetry an oxymoron? Not a bit of it, posits Bola=F1o. On th= e> >> contrary, it's all too possible.> >>> >> from Stacey D'Erasmo's revie= w> >>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/D-Erasmo-t.html?re= f=3Dbooks ---> >>> > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta= r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja= n= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:15:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe object oriented programming as a metaphor for theory. One of the things that eventually turned into my ceiling of incompetence with coding is object oriented design. In some ways it just seemed really wrong to me although I've never really been able to work out why that is. One of the things that i didn't like about it, at least in python and java which are the only two programming languages I ever tried to work with extensively that are object oriented, was the way that all the introductions to object oriented programming always started by saying that object orientation conceptually is similar to the way the world is. that is that there are objects and their extensions and properties and instantiations and methods in the real world, and so object oriented programming is just a mirror of that. I could never really wrap my head around that in code, and so was always more successful playing around with structured languages like Basic and C. but to think of objects in the world not as a metaphysical ordering of reality, but rather as a phenomenological one, where the object is the thing that is, as the abstraction that allows for an ontological investigation, that to me seems like it has legs because it ties modes of being to uses and methods and properties and classes in a way that I think makes a lot of intuitive sense for the various ways of being-in-the-world that different classes of objects have. It's very easy, i notice, now that I'm thinking in this way to just slip into talking that way. The blank class then defines those objects which will become a work through being worked on by the class of implements, and maybe then the methods of an implement object define the methods of impact? this is where my understanding of programming terminology starts to get fuzzy so I think i'll just quit while I'm ahead. One thing that maybe ties this back to oulipo though is that having defined the basic classes of objects in this way, it becomes possible to address them recursively in a way that makes not just for generative works, but for a generative poetics. by defining a set of methods for given implements and the behaviors of given blanks, perhaps then it is possible to cause genetic or otherwise evolving algorithms to generate not just works but rules for creating works and even rules for judging the quality of works. I can envision then not just a program that would create work, but would then also be capable of evaluating and refining it's own output and even making a decision about when a work is "finished" based on some set of tolerances for quality that it generates for itself. maybe i've just gone off the deep end from computer science to computer science fiction, but then there's a reason i side with Wittgenstein in his debates with Turing and I've often wondered if it's because I have a fundamentally different understanding of what mathematics is than is taken to be the case in computer science. but then, i barely passed calculus and really struggled reading Tarski and Church on higher order logic, so what the hell do I know? ANyway, stimulating ideas as always Jim. Keep us posted on your progress. On Feb 25, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > that's a pretty cool extension of the idea, Jason. i'd say that > takes it > further. generalizes it usefully. there's the philosopher in you as > architect of ideas. > > these sorts of structures are very useful to artist-programmers. > and they're > useful, well, to anybody who is dealing with art in any number of > ways. > > these sorts of abstract classes are an attempt to provide a good > starting > point to mull over in relation to where one is going. i came up > with the > more specific version i offered not too long ago. way after i started > dbcinema. so dbcinema contains no screen/canvas/blank class. but it > would > profit from it. and it contains no paint/ink/'methods of impact' > class and, > again, it would profit from it. it would profit by these ideas > opening up > possibilities, mainly, and relevantly organizing already-inherant > possibilities in the existing dbcinema architecture. > > Object-oriented art-making? But the objects are instantiations of > abstract > classes, not items in the gallery. Object-oriented art-making as > methodology. That's what object-oriented programming is, a > methodology. Not > a programming language, for instance. A methodology that can be and > usually > is used when one creates a programming language. Or when one creates a > program/'abstract machine'. > > Perhaps we've created a new field? Or just found a handy way to > synthesize a > philosophical approach and an architectural approach in the > creation of art > or art machines? Or what? > > ja > http://vispo.com > > >> Very interesting Jim. If you'll permit me an extension: >> >> I've recently become very interested in Heidegger's Zuhandenheit mode >> of being. That is, the being of things, the beingness of which is >> their readyness-to-hand, or their existence as equipment. It strikes >> me that in what you're defining what is being described is the >> equipment of an artform. That an artform has equipment necessary to >> creating it is fairly obvious. Creating is essentially an activity, >> and it is always going to be an activity done with something, and >> that something is its equipment. in visual art, that something is the >> list of tools necessary to manipulate the visual image, and I think >> your classes of abstract structures seem pretty exhaustive, although >> I'm not a visual artist. I will say, however, that it appears to be >> an additive process, whereby your set of abstractions create a visual >> image by starting with a blank and adding things to it in order to >> reach the final product. It occurs to me that this is not exhaustive >> as a great deal of visual art is also subtractive. I'm thinking here >> of a kind of sculpture, whereby the sculptor starts with a blank and >> then removes things from it in order to reach the final product. That >> is to say, i think if you want to establish something that's truly >> exhaustive, you have to incorporate the subtractive process. The >> blank itself is something worth considering, and not just in visual >> production, but also in sound, in text, and really anything I can >> think of that has at its end something other than performance. I >> don't know what the blank is in a performance, and for me it's >> difficult to conceptualize. I'm not overly worried about that, >> however, as I don't personally find performance to be particularly >> interesting except as it leads to the creating of some other product, >> be it a recording, a film, a painting, or a sculpture, or whatever. >> But do you think it's possible then to extend your abstracts in the >> following way: >> >> 1. The Implement >> 2. The Blank >> 3. The Methods of Impact >> >> Wherein in any circumstance of creating art, and not just auto- >> generative production methods, what the work is is something that >> began with a blank, wherein something or someone acted on that blank >> with an implement in order to leave a record of it's activity through >> some method or methods of impact. Here we have the page impacted by >> letters through a writing implement, a screen impacted by light >> through a computer, a canvas impacted by ink with a pen, etc. >> >> There are places where this doesn't seem to hold up for me, and that >> would seem to indicate that this model has an inherent bias toward a >> certain kind of visual work in it's metaphorical abstraction. I think >> that's fine though. But the question to ask then is, what other >> metaphors might be possible here? It's something to chew on for me, >> so thanks for the post. >> >> Thanks, >> Jason ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:38:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0802251815s15cd8edxa3f0cee55b6d7af@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit what carmack meant, murat, is that when you build something that you hope to develop further (some writing projects are like that, rather than quick one-offs), things that you add may make it harder to develop the thing in some directions rather than others. this is true not only of software but anything we build. including ourselves. as one builds, the possibilities for what the thing or person can be become narrowed, although the thing or person may be better off with the addition. individuation. as things grow, they become individuated, individual, and cannot be many other things they might have been earlier on in the process. we make our bed and then we must lie in it. when he says "the trick is to pick the features that don't fight with each other", he means that when you add new parts to a piece, they should not bring the whole thing to a grinding halt, but resonate with what is already there. it isn't so much a matter of efficiency or productivity as understanding the organic form and directions of growth that one has set in motion. as to 'spagetti code', it is a loose technical term that refers to code that is hard to understand because the logic is needlessly convoluted and spread out and intermingled with the rest of the thing. it's true that some such programs can be quite marvelous. it's also true that they cannot grow past a certain, usually somewhat premature, point. you are quick to misinterpret and take offence at what i say, murat. you seem to see me as lacking skepticism, and possessing uncritical enthusiasm about computer technology and its use within poetry and art. the evidence you marshall for these claims is full of misinterpretation and misunderstanding, as in your last two posts to me. this sort of art and approach to art seems to freak you out. sorry. don't mean to tweak your freak, murat. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 02:13:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit can't you all stop this stuff?? we're all deluded yer all anti-semites we're all fascist commie pinkos enough of this self righteous lefty stuff quit halt desist smell the turpentine..... delusions????? bad is bad good art produced by bad people is still good but they're not so drop it look at poor old emile nolde a nazi through and through but his art was branded degenereate anyway not because of his beliefs but because hitler that "great" failed visual artist didn't think it suited his taste too expressionistic or sumthin knock it off yer turn will come to fry what we believe in will count little in the end it's what the rulers believe in that will dictate our fates until the new rulers appear VIVA NADER that brave fool VIVA the philharmonic in N Korea aviv On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:15:35 +1300 Wystan Curnow writes: > which is also to say how many of us are comfortable with being asked > if > we are confortable with delusions? > > Wystan > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2008 11:55 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o laño - - > NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism > > I am, for one, but a lot depends on what meanings "delusion," > "harmless," and "tolerated" have here. > Not to mention "etc." > > But, yes, I'm comfortable with all that. More or less. > > Hal > > > "Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, > your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck." > --George Carlin > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > On Feb 25, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Mary Jo Malo wrote: > > > How many of us are comfortable in the delusion that artists who > are > > racist, sexist, etc. are harmless and should be tolerated for the > sake > > of their precious talent? > > > > Mary Jo Malo > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:54:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Jo Malo Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Scientific research is subject to political infiltration and coercion, not to mention constant religious attacks. Likewise, in just the past few years it was disclosed that certain literary foundations and publications were subjected to the same. One doesn't need to read Roberto Bola=F1o's books to become aware of such, but I recommend them to fully experience the paranoia. It's not simply about bad people producing or purveying good art but the naivet=E9 of thinking it doesn't matter. (Yes, Steve, we're all going to die, but we can still speak about things that interest us.) Most artists are aware of the degeneracy of the media, but not always immune to subtler powerful influences. Think of normal social interactions and you'll realize how effortless an agenda can be accomplished. Obviously in free societies we suffer these dangerous fools, but we can also excoriate their evil. Bola=F1o also suggests that rebel artists are just as liable to ruin the lives of one another in their quixotic, nearly mystical, adventures for the avant-garde and freedom of speech. Mary Jo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:10:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: Ricahrd Kostelanetz: exhibition announcement/reception, please come see, thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Begin forwarded message: From: RichKostelanetz@aol.com Date: February 26, 2008 10:06:38 AM CST Subject: exhibition announcement/reception, please come see, thanks For the first time in decades, Richard Kostelanetz's classic WORD PRINTS will be exhibited along with his NUMBERS ONE (and perhaps some other words) high above the bookshelves at the magnificent brand-new Mulberry Street branch of The New York Public Library at 10 Jersey St. between Mulberry and Lafayette Streets, on the eastern edge of SoHo, one short block south of Houston St., opening on 5 March and extending through April. The works will be shown in the Main Reading Room on subterranean Level 2. Among the prints displayed, all 26" by 40", are DISINTEGRATION, BLACK-WHITE, TRUTH, ECHO, ME, MANIFESTOS. Library Hours: Monday 12-8, Tuesday 10-6, Wednesday 12-8, Thursday 10-6, Friday 10-6, Saturday 10-5 Between 5 and 8 pm. on the opening day, Wednesday 5 March, Kostelanetz will be present to greet well-wishers and sign books you might wish to present to him. (The library hosts assure that bringing them in and taking them out "poses no security issue.") To contact the artist about obtaining prints, please go to his eponymous website: www.richardkostelanetz.com. If you see it without him present, please let him know what you think, thanks, Please circulate this announcement. If you come by subway, consider taking the 6, F, D, B, V to Broadway/Lafayette Bleecker and getting out at the southeasternmost exit between Lafayette and Crosby streets. Then walk one short block south to Jersey St., turning left. The NYPL is on the south (right, downtown) side of the narrow street. Its website with a map and telephone number is http://www.nypl.org/branch/local/man/ml.cfm Individual entries on RICHARD KOSTELANETZ appear in Contemporary Poets, Contemporary Novelists, Postmodern Fiction, Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians, Reader's Guide to Twentieth-Century Writers, the Merriam-Webster Encyclopedia of Literature, Webster's Dictionary of American Authors, The HarperCollins Reader's Encyclopedia of American Literature, NNDB.com, and the Encyclopedia Britannica, among other distinguished directories. Otherwise, he survives in New York, where he was born, unemployed and thus overworked. Richard Kostelanetz PO Box 444, Prince st. New York, NY USA 10012-0008 www.richardkostelanetz.com ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar S P I D E R T A N G L E Projects listed at: http://www.spidertangle.net Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity 1 New Members Visit Your Group Y! Entertainment World of Star Wars Rediscover the force. Explore now. Women of Curves on Yahoo! Groups see how women are changing their lives. Dog Fanatics on Yahoo! Groups Find people who are crazy about dogs. . __,_._,___ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:04:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: TalkingPoint: Anti Gravity Surprise on March 3rd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TalkingPoint: Anti Gravity Surprise 6pm Monday, March 3rd at the Hyde Park Art Center 5020 S. Cornell Avenue CHICAGO, IL Muller Meeting Room http://www.hydeparkart.org TalkingPoint is a free monthly Monday evening series in which Chicago-based cultural producers share their ideas as a starting point for conversation in an intimate setting. Since 2001, public art group Anti Gravity Surprise has addressed the concept of world peace in 9/11-themed multimedia project Gathering Motion; mounted a full eight-hour day of art and discussion about work with Second Shift; and hosted $election community art events to engage voters. Co-founders Jennifer Karmin and Kathleen Duffy will speak about their collaborative approach and ongoing work Tell Us What You Think, an evolving public art project that will be distributed as a free workbook, http://www.antigravitysurprise.org. Come down to the Hyde Park Art Center for a chance to listen, discuss, and learn. Food and drink provided. TalkingPoint is curated by Dan Wang. Past guests include Industry of the Ordinary, Janice Misurell-Mitchell, Theaster Gates, and Jeanne Dunning. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:19:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This may help no one, what I'm going to say. It might be meaningless. But I know what it is, EXACTLY what it is to want poets to be MORE, or better, or perfect, or something along those lines, you know? This is part of the challenge, to charge headlong into such searches, needs, wants, to allow disappointment, to allow anger, to allow a certain amount of stupidity even. The right amount of stupidity allows room for getting out of the seriousness when it's necessary. This is endlessly painful in other words. Because we care. Really, actually care. This is a rotten truck load of shit coming down the road for the fields. This is going back to the conversation about Pound, and others, and, the bigger question, I think, isn't whether we should DAMN these other people, but learn and be different? If we're going to stand on shoulders shouldn't we be higher? What's the point of emulating? What's the goal in all we want, ALL we want from poetry? Our goals for poetry have a lot to do with these bigger political, social issues having a chance to be seen clearer, and punctured to let the hot air out. But I still say the word fascism is a manipulative word in this case. It's a loaded word. It conjures the worst possible forms of hatred, and in the end to conflate that with LANGUAGE Poetry is plain fucking wrong. Someone is going to have to be pretty damned clear with examples before I entertain such a word being used. It's a word that always sits in the hot coals, waiting to be used to make nothing but the most shocking example of someone, or some group. In the end the word fascism is too often used by lazy, boring idiots who are pissed off but don't have any REAL way explaining their dilemma. There are too suddenly all these "experts" in the world of poetry who should really be looking for work in the wonderful world of fast food, since all they want in the end is a side of fries to satisfy their "argument" of vague sauces and protein. The Times has for too long been defending the kind of poetry which has done as much damage to our reputation around the world as Bush/Cheney/Rove/Rice. And in the end, if we had never invaded Iraq, the poets of Poland and France will still think we're all Sharon Olds and Robert Bly. In other words FUCK THE NEW YORK TIMES! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:02:24 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Of course, the substitution of 'language poetry' for 'fascism', while = made in passing is an outrageous slander. For me, no other contemporary = 'poetics' is both more political, and more sophisticated in its recognition of the = inseparability of poetry and politics and more securely of the left than = that associated with langpo ( who is not a ancient chinese master translated = by E. Pound). In this respect its 'critique' of the 'self' and its = revision of autobiography, is somewhat incidental; such 'observers' who = register it otherwise are precisely those who have the largest and most = powerful territory to maintain. Wystan =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of jared schickling Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2008 5:02 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1 o - - = NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism First off thanks for this discussion, politics vis-a-vis the literary. = Though I haven't read Bolano (it's now on the list), the Times reviewer = seems to suggest that all visions and promotions of those visions = constitute fascism. Rather, fascism (its tenets parcelled out in detail = by plenty of observers elsewhere) constitutes a particular ideological = stranglehold. Langpo, or any literary movement, turns (or threatens to = turn) fascist only at the point where it becomes intolerant of = alternative modes of being. Perhaps langpo is subject to this charge = only for the veracity and (dare I say) effectiveness of its critique of = the "self" as an organizing term, of the self as the site where meaning = occurs, of the representational (of "outside" reference) in face of the = self-referential nature of the signifier. What many observers fail to = mention is Language practioners' eventual renunciation of certain prior = criticisms. Dan Chiasson, for example, notes Ron Silliman and Susan = Howe's ventures into autobiography. I recently came across an expansive = poem by Steve McCaffery in the newest edition of the Colorado Review = that most certainly engages this planet, that is something more than a = fetishistic inquiry into the material quality of the word. And of = course there's Lyn Hejinian's "My Life."=20 =20 Jared Schickling =20 =20 =20 > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:42:14 -0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject:=20 > Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - = NYTBR--Nazi=20 > Poetry/ langpo & fascism> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > How many = > of us are comfortable in the delusion that non-artists who are racist, = > sexist, etc. are harmless and should be tolerated for the lack of=20 > their precious talent? Or that racist, sexist, fascist, authoritarians = > should not be tolerated at all.> > the first sacrifice that must be=20 > made in order to live in an open society is that one must commit to=20 > tolerating repugnant ideas. that repugnant ideas are often expressed=20 > beautifully is a warning to all thinking people that in and of itself=20 > demands to be heard. the value of a talented pig is that it reminds us = > to separate the aesthetic from the political for fear of being lured=20 > by beauty into a realm of horrors.> > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Mary Jo = > Malo wrote:> > > Nobody mocks the inherent elitism and tyranny of=20 > literary movements> > quite like Roberto Bola=F1o. His characters = eerily=20 > exemplify this> > narcissism, also rife among the rebellious avant=20 > garde, and eventually> > most face absurdity. He has the chilling=20 > ability to portray the> > complicity of both powerful and confused=20 > ordinary people, each of whom> > believes art is more or less than it=20 > is. Bola=F1o's theme of fascists as> > patron/artists deconstructs the = > value of the arts. How many of us are> > comfortable in the delusion=20 > that artists who are racist, sexist, etc.> > are harmless and should=20 > be tolerated for the sake of their precious> > talent?> >> > Mary Jo=20 > Malo> >> > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 3:46 PM, David Chirot=20 > wrote:> >> Substitute, say, "language poetry" = > for "fascism" and the trajectory of> >> these invented lives would be=20 > much the same as they are for the busy> >> networks of real writers=20 > Bola=F1o knew from the inside out . . .> >>> >> Who said literature = has=20 > no real power to affect history? Not Bola=F1o -> >> for him, = literature=20 > is an unnervingly protean, amoral force with> >> uncanny powers of=20 > self-invention, self-justification and> >> self-mythification. The=20 > mythmakers, he suggests, certainly do matter.> >> If Hitler had won,=20 > for instance, the not entirely absurd stories in> >> this encyclopedia = > would be the prevailing stories of the culture. Is> >> Nazi poetry an=20 > oxymoron? Not a bit of it, posits Bola=F1o. On the> >> contrary, it's=20 > all too possible.> >>> >> from Stacey D'Erasmo's review> >>> >>=20 > = http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/books/review/D-Erasmo-t.html?ref=3Dboo > ks ---> >>> > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with = star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_= jan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:26:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Dear New York City, we're going to be reading poetry on Avenue A on March 1st MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline PhillySound poets read in NYC for PEACE ON A SERIES /\\///\\\\/////\\\\\\///////\\\\\\\\///////// Thom Donovan's PEACE ON A has invited PhillySound http://PhillySound.blogspot.com BE THERE FOR A GREAT NIGHT OF POETRY! Saturday, MARCH 1st 8pm 166 Avenue A (btwn 10th & 11th) APARTMENT #2 PhillySound READERS WILL BE: CAConrad Mytili Jagannathan Dorothea Lasky Chris McCreary Frank Sherlock Kevin Varrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:36:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: <20080226.021629.556.33.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thank you Mary Jo for a very succinct communication of many facets of Bolano's writings. "They're going to knock the house down They'll rip out the basement. It's where one of Jimmy's men killed the Spanish UNESCO official. It's where Jimmy killed that Cecilia Sanchez Poblete woman. Sometimes I'd be watching television with the children, and the lights would go out for a while. We never heard anyone yell, the electricity just cut out and then came back. Do you want to go see the basement? . . . .and she said, That's how literature is made in Chile. I nodded and left. While I was driving back to Santiago, I thought about what she had said. That is how literature is made in Chile, but not just in Chile, in Argentina and Mexico too, in Guatemala and Uruguay, in Spain and France and Germany, in green England and carefree Italy. That is how literature is made. Or at least what we call literature, to keep ourselves from falling into the rubbish dump." Roberto Bolano, By Night in Chile For the most part, responders don't seem to have actually read the review in its entirety, let alone any works by Bolano. I hope like Jarid many readers go on to read Bolano's works, truly among the most extraordinary written and published in the last decades of the 20th century and first years of the 21st. (Bolano died in 2003, aged fifty, of liver cancer and chain smoking combined. The extreme production of his final years was undertaken to ensure that his widow and their son would have an income after his death.) Bolano's works are especially interesting today, in this country From Bolano one learns the shocks and methods from the inside of how Fascism, so long invisible in its approach, by its posing, say, as a fellow student in avant-garde poetry classes as does "Alberto Tagle-Ruiz" ( aka Carlos Weider in Bolano's Distant Star-)-,how Fascism, someday, overnight--in the morning--calmly announces itself as in charge. (Weider and Distant Star grew out of the character Lieutenant Ramirez Hoffman, whose story is the final entry in Nazi Literatures of the Americas.) And that suspicious seeming poet in the classes, who dates the most beautiful and talented twins, stars of an avant-garde's early moments, turns out to be none other than this Lieutenant in the Air Force, and the ambitious creator of what is to be the New Chilean Poetry--a combination of sky writing, strange essays and perhaps plagiarized poetries, and their crowning achievement, a privately shown exhibition of photographs covering a room except for the floor, in which are displayed the tortured and dismembered bodies of a great number of the recently, "missing" local young people, students, primarily young women, including maybe both of the twins. For a long time it has been advancing, the symptoms are there all the time, hidden in plain sight, yet until the fatal moment is reached, no one wants to think, hear or see that it is remotely possible. One of the things that Bolano examines is something which has just occurred here--the rush to a judgement and opinion born of a few words, ("language poetry," "fascism") which one is trained not to think of as sharing in any way possible an affinity, nor ever occurring in the same sentence. Without thinking of a further enquiry into the review itself or the author reviewed's books, or their backgrounds--all that "context" which people at times claim that they owe their awareness of to various of the language poet authors/authorities--without further enquiry, a judgment is passed, and the matter considered "taken care of." Orwell in the sections on Language following the novel 1984, charts the development of newspeak in which opposing ideas can be reduced into one by finalizing their conjunction in a single word. This causes the arresting of thought at a threshold beyond which it is not allowed, let alone possible, to go, without entering the sure-death zones of "thoughtcrime." By even seeing the words "language poetry" and "fascism" in such close proximity, two words believed as a gospel truth to be absolutely, completely antithetical , thought becomes arrested and is turned into outrage at what is perceived to be a "thoughtcrime." In a real sense, this illustrates to what degree the absolute control of a subject's thoughts has taken place, without the subject being aware of it. The "thoughtcrime" that so outrages the subject is thought to be "unnatural," on the order of a taboo, rather than perhaps something along the lines of a rational enquiry. It doesn't matter what the reviewer has actually written, al that matters is that they have committed a "thoughtcrime", simply by having the two words close together within a sentence. It is this kind of reality that many of Bolano's characters are forced to face: torture in the basement, the literary salon right overhead. This has now become the reality in the USA--torture discussed in the Senate on tv while drinks are poured and people discuss the latest literary bons mots and events, fads, For al the discussants know, the person in the next apartment could be "disappearing" into the rendition flight oblivions of "black sites" and "secret prisons." Meanwhile the phone, the computer, the banking records and store purchases, the gasoline consumption and drinking habits, the preferred reading tastes and favorite musics of the gathered company are completely transparent to the authorities. Fascism becomes so much a part of the landscape that it blends right into the feng shui arrangements of the room's decor and seeps steadily into the thoughts and responses of the literary get together. The American scene becomes a "remake" of one in Bolano's By Night in Chile, the literary salon noted by the reviewer that takes place above a labyrinthine series of corridors in the basement which lead to various torture cells. The owner of this establishment is Jimmy, (cited above in the quote), an American who is often "away on business" and who supports his wife's literary ambitions and her well attended soirees. As it is later revealed, Jimmy, who leaves Chile and his family behind with the end of the Fascist regime--is an agent of the American CIA or some other "Special" or "Dark" Ops group in charge of the training, overseeing and funding of the Chilean "experiment" so brilliantly and ferociously described in Melanie Klein's Shock Doctrine. The USA today is a "remake" of Friedman's Pinochet implemented Shock economics combined with the use of extreme force and torture, in the name of security and national defense. The one change so far being that only a few American citizens as yet have been subjected to the extra-legal treatment reserved for our "enemy combatants" The coup in Chile took place on a 9/11--in 1973. For Melanie Klein, 9/11 2001 allowed a similar Shock Doctrine to be installed in the USA, without the need of physical force, but accompanied by the steady removal of democratic rights, the implementation of mass surveillance and security systems and the invasion of and dispensing with Civil and Human rights in the name of Homeland Security. Invasion of privacy is accompanied by the privatization of as much of the public sector as possible, directing billions of public monies in to the coffers of the few--the privatized corporations, contractors, management specialists, reconstruction specialist, arms dealers who make up the bulk of the nation's budget. The declaration of the "unending War" on "Terrorism" in which the President can now personally decide who is and who is not "an enemy combatant" means the country becomes in effect a corporate-military machine with a minimal government which is increasingly concentrated in the role of the Chief Executive. That Americans today face the situations which Bolano writes of --in large part caused by American power and interests-- gives his work an added power, as that which one is taught "can't happen here," is happening here. The effect is not unlike that of what the military-intelligence calls "blowback." What the reviewer is saying, I think, is that if the writers in Nazi Literatures of the Americas were "language poets" and not "fascists," their careers would be on the "winning" side rather than the "losing." That is, they would be, like the language poets, the writers acceptable to the State and the society and their self-mythologizing would be and is part of a Nationalist Narrative. Their recognition throughout the "official" culture of academies, memberships in the National Academies such as Arts and Letters, their positions as Authorities" and "Authors" of "radical, innovative" works, of blogs and "canon formations"--al of these things are acceptable because they are a part of the overarching discourse of the National Agenda. In this agenda, America is Number One--in the military-corporate avant-garde and in the literary and artistic avant-garde. What counts is the supremacy, unquestioned, of Power, of being Number One. That is why something as simple as seeing "fascism" and "language poetry" in the same sentence can cause such an immediate and heated outrage. The mere thought that there should ever be any such thing as a question or statement involving or not even involving but merely mentioning together these words, is something not only not allowed, but "impossible." Bolano's work makes clear just how many impossible things are not only possible, but can be suddenly revealed as the reality one lives in, which has been there al the time, hidden in plain sight, and simply waiting for the moment to emerge from its camouflaged "normalcy" to reveal --who knows--the being of the Supreme Author, the Dictator of the New State of Emergency and suspension of all laws other the Martial. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:05:15 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: A<20080226.021629.556.33.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, Steve, I thought I was trying to, as I think Hlvard was as well. Wystan =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2008 8:13 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1 o - - = NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism can't you all stop this stuff?? we're all deluded yer all anti-semites we're all fascist commie pinkos = enough of this self righteous lefty stuff quit halt desist smell the = turpentine..... delusions????? bad is bad =20 good art produced by bad people is still good but they're not so drop it look at poor old emile nolde a nazi through and through but his art was branded degenereate anyway not because of his beliefs but because hitler that "great" failed visual = artist didn't think it suited his taste too expressionistic or sumthin = knock it off yer turn will come to fry what we believe in will count = little in the end it's what the rulers believe in that will dictate our = fates until the new rulers appear VIVA NADER that brave fool=20 VIVA the philharmonic in N Korea aviv On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:15:35 +1300 Wystan Curnow = writes: > which is also to say how many of us are comfortable with being asked=20 > if we are confortable with delusions? > =20 > Wystan >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2008 11:55 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - -=20 > NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism >=20 > I am, for one, but a lot depends on what meanings "delusion,"=20 > "harmless," and "tolerated" have here. > Not to mention "etc." >=20 > But, yes, I'm comfortable with all that. More or less. >=20 > Hal >=20 >=20 > "Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, > your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck." > --George Carlin >=20 > Halvard Johnson > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > halvard@earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html >=20 >=20 > On Feb 25, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Mary Jo Malo wrote: >=20 > > How many of us are comfortable in the delusion that artists who > are > > racist, sexist, etc. are harmless and should be tolerated for the > sake > > of their precious talent? > > > > Mary Jo Malo >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:32:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 14, Winter 2008, Now Online! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 14, Winter 2008, Now Online! Featuring poetry by John M. Bennett, CL Bledsoe, Alex Cigale, Jamie Cooper, Burt Kimmelman, Bobbie Lurie, Cheyenne Nimes, Laurie Price, David Thornbrugh, and Georgios Tsangaris; plus a selection of work in fiction and poetry from upcoming books from Hamilton Stone Editions by Rebecca Kavaler, Eva Kollisch, Jane Lazarre, and Rochelle Ratner. http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr14.html Submissions to the Hamilton Stone Review We publish three times a year: in June, October, and February. Please send 1-7 poems in the body of your message and/or in ONE attachment; one story or up to three short shorts per message and/or attachment, please. Send bios with submissions. No snailmail submissions will be read. Poetry submissions should go directly to Halvard Johnson at halvard@earthlink.net . Send fiction to Lynda Schor at lyndaschor@earthlink.net. PLEASE SEND THIS ALONG TO OTHERS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:32:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Maybe object oriented programming as a metaphor for theory. One of > the things that eventually turned into my ceiling of incompetence > with coding is object oriented design. In some ways it just seemed > really wrong to me although I've never really been able to work out > why that is. One of the things that i didn't like about it, at least > in python and java which are the only two programming languages I > ever tried to work with extensively that are object oriented, was the > way that all the introductions to object oriented programming always > started by saying that object orientation conceptually is similar to > the way the world is. that is that there are objects and their > extensions and properties and instantiations and methods in the real > world, and so object oriented programming is just a mirror of that. I > could never really wrap my head around that in code, and so was > always more successful playing around with structured languages like > Basic and C. we might say that the sorts of classes we are looking at posit a poetics (as i think you also are suggesting below). a poetics of whatever sort of thing is under construction via the classes. i had problems with oop also. it wasn't until i tackled some relatively large programming projects that its virtues started to become evident. i'd write myself into a mess that i couldn't take any further. couldn't take it any further because the spagetti forbade it; the spagetti rose to entwine me and making any sort of significant addition became a herculean effort worth a brain hemmorage while trying to remember convoluted spagetti structures. oop was developed to address precisely this sort of problem. oop is a programming methodology that offers the possibility of creating programming projects without getting hopelessly bogged. so the value of the sort of classes we're discussing is not only poetical-philosophical-theoretical, but it also offers some hope of creating software art that can be developed further than it could be otherwise. that makes intuitive sense also: beginning with rich, interesting, flexible poetics might make for greater scope in a project. oop can thereby be of use in realizing the software one would like to make, as opposed to having to lower one's aspirations in response to getting bogged early. > but to think of objects in the world not as a metaphysical > ordering of reality, but rather as a phenomenological one, where > the object is the thing that is, as the abstraction that allows for > an ontological investigation, that to me seems like it has legs > because it ties modes of being to uses and methods and properties and > classes in a way that I think makes a lot of intuitive sense for the > various ways of being-in-the-world that different classes of objects > have. It's very easy, i notice, now that I'm thinking in this way to > just slip into talking that way. The blank class then defines those > objects which will become a work through being worked on by the class > of implements, and maybe then the methods of an implement object > define the methods of impact? this is where my understanding of > programming terminology starts to get fuzzy so I think i'll just quit > while I'm ahead. the classes you suggest are quite high-level. the higher the level, the more abstract. i don't have a sense of whether it would be useful to write code at that level, don't know if one could describe the properties and methods at that level. perhaps. but it *is* useful to realize that whether one is going to write something in generative visual art or in various other art forms, a good starting point would be the classes you suggest. that's very useful. the classes one makes into the foundation for an app end up having a large effect on the evolving shape of the thing through development. > One thing that maybe ties this back to oulipo though > is that having defined the basic classes of objects in this way, it > becomes possible to address them recursively in a way that makes not > just for generative works, but for a generative poetics. by defining > a set of methods for given implements and the behaviors of given > blanks, perhaps then it is possible to cause genetic or otherwise > evolving algorithms to generate not just works but rules for creating > works and even rules for judging the quality of works. I can envision > then not just a program that would create work, but would then also > be capable of evaluating and refining it's own output and even making > a decision about when a work is "finished" based on some set of > tolerances for quality that it generates for itself. that's also very interesting. since i started creating programmed works, my pieces have gone from relatively short and simple pieces such as Seattle Drift, which is 'one page' of code and took a month or two to make--and it was obvious to me when these early pieces were finished--to pieces such as dbCinema which are thousands of lines long and take more than a year to make. these latter sorts of pieces have been 'finished' when it'd kill me to take them farther, 'finished' when the architecture groans, threatens to collapse, and threatens to give me a cerebral hemmorage in trying to extend the architecture. hence the need for really clear initial work of the sort you suggest, because a good foundation supports ambitious projects further along. it's not quite the same sort of thing as getting bogged in writing a long poem or novel or whatever. in these cases, the spagetti doesn't really entwine one. one simply runs out of narrative or other sorts of steam. as opposed to what one has written actively offering resistance. > maybe i've just gone off the deep end from computer science to > computer science fiction, but then there's a reason i side with > Wittgenstein in his debates with Turing and I've often wondered if > it's because I have a fundamentally different understanding of what > mathematics is than is taken to be the case in computer science. but > then, i barely passed calculus and really struggled reading Tarski > and Church on higher order logic, so what the hell do I know? reading math is very difficult, or so i find it. working with others in such an undertaking is useful. the ideas themselves are almost always quite simple. simpler than ideas in art. but understanding the language they're written in is the difficult thing. wittgenstein was in debate with turing? what about? ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:12:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Fri 2/29 ~ Buck Downs, Corrine Fitzpatrick & Greg Fuchs ~ Brooklyn, NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Burning Chair Readings invite you to experience leap= =0A=0AThe Burning Chair=0AReadings =0A=0A=0Ainvite you to experience=0Aleap= year w/=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ABuck Downs, Corrine Fitzpatrick & Greg Fuchs=0A=0A= =0A=0AFriday, February 29th,=0A8 pm=0A=0A=0AUnnameable Books=0A=0A=0A456 Be= rgen Street=0A=0A=0Abtwn. Flatbush & 5th=0AAves.=0A=0Anorth Park Slope, Bro= oklyn=0A=0Anearest the 2/3 but easily accessible from almost any train=0A= =0A=0Aunnameablebooks.net=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AAuthor Bios=0A=0A=0AA native of= Jones County, Miss., Buck Downs lives and works=0Ain Washington, DC. Recen= t books include Ladies=0ALove Outlaws and Recreational Vehicle.=0A=0A=0A = =0A=0A=0ACorrine Fitzpatrick is the author of two chapbooks - Zamboangue= =F1a=0A(Sona Books, 2007) and On Melody Dispatch (Goodbye Better, 2007). Sh= e's=0Aworking on a new set of poems called Minor Crimes and Casualties, and= =0Awill have other poems out in vehicular number one, a new split-side=0Ase= ries from press gang.=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0AGreg Fuchs is the author of several= books, including most=0Arecently Metropolitan Transit (isabel lettres) & B= ored of=0AEducation (Rock Heals). He is=0Acolumnist-at-large for Boog City= and with John Coletti co-edits Open 24=0AHours Press. His photographs and= =0Awriting are available online at gregfuchs.com.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A __= ___________________________________________________________________________= _______=0ABe a better friend, newshound, and =0Aknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mob= ile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9= tAcJ =0A ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:19:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Too Many MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Too Many Early mocap results with Foofwa d'Imobilite and Kira Sedlock. Why should you care? Doubles doubled, fabricated responses one to another as if 'the mutual orientation of cognitive domains' ensured, if not constructed, meaning. But then, the shell of the true world ** http://www.alansondheim.org/bop1and2.mp4 http://www.alansondheim.org/bop3and4.mp4 http://www.alansondheim.org/bop5and6.mp4 and why this constant production of the doubly-inundated body? Each ham- mers the other, shimmers the Other. But I'm worn out at this point and images are heaps on images and somewhere I'm sure something's elusive, or not? But surely these are brilliant? Shimmer? ** http://www.alansondheim.org/boofwa1.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/boofwa2.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/boofwa3.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/boofwa4.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/boofwa5.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/boofwa6.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/boofwa7.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/boofwa8.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:33:37 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Salmon Subject: March Readings in NYC Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, I'll be staying in NYC for the second half of March, if there are any good poetry events or readings, I'd love to be emailed details. Thanks, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:28:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been coming across the terms 'langpo' and 'language poetry' many = times in this listserv. I must show my ignorance as I'm relatively unfamiliar = with these terms. In order to enhance my education, what books should I be reading? What poets? Please kindly advise. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of CA Conrad Sent: February 26, 2008 3:19 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - = NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism This may help no one, what I'm going to say. It might be meaningless. = But I know what it is, EXACTLY what it is to want poets to be MORE, or = better, or perfect, or something along those lines, you know? This is part of the challenge, to charge headlong into such searches, = needs, wants, to allow disappointment, to allow anger, to allow a certain = amount of stupidity even. The right amount of stupidity allows room for getting = out of the seriousness when it's necessary. This is endlessly painful in other words. Because we care. Really, actually care. This is a rotten truck load of shit coming down the road for the fields. This is going back to the conversation about Pound, and others, and, the bigger question, I think, isn't whether we should DAMN these other = people, but learn and be different? If we're going to stand on shoulders shouldn't we be higher? What's the point of emulating? What's the goal in all we want, ALL we want from poetry? Our goals for poetry have a lot to do with these bigger = political, social issues having a chance to be seen clearer, and punctured to let = the hot air out. But I still say the word fascism is a manipulative word in this case. = It's a loaded word. It conjures the worst possible forms of hatred, and in = the end to conflate that with LANGUAGE Poetry is plain fucking wrong. = Someone is going to have to be pretty damned clear with examples before I = entertain such a word being used. It's a word that always sits in the hot coals, waiting to be used to make nothing but the most shocking example of = someone, or some group. In the end the word fascism is too often used by lazy, boring idiots who = are pissed off but don't have any REAL way explaining their dilemma. There = are too suddenly all these "experts" in the world of poetry who should = really be looking for work in the wonderful world of fast food, since all they = want in the end is a side of fries to satisfy their "argument" of vague sauces = and protein. The Times has for too long been defending the kind of poetry which has = done as much damage to our reputation around the world as = Bush/Cheney/Rove/Rice. And in the end, if we had never invaded Iraq, the poets of Poland and = France will still think we're all Sharon Olds and Robert Bly. In other words = FUCK THE NEW YORK TIMES! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: = 26/02/2008 7:50 PM =20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: = 26/02/2008 7:50 PM =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:04:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure what your issues with Language Poetry are, but I v= David,=0A=0AI'm not sure what your issues with Language Poetry are, but I v= enture to say that no one else on this list does either. You address *none= * of the tenets of Lang Po below -- =0A=0AInstead, you have created the fau= ltiest of logics by attempting to collapse any distinction between fascist = thought that would have us all ignore the manipulative uses of language, le= aving it unexamined in favor of accepting (and enforcing) one belief system= (and one select group)--regardless of how detrimental it is to society as = a whole--with Language Poetry, which, at its simplest, seeks to remove poet= ry from an insular place and encourages us to make connections and analyze = just how language can manipulate, in all of its permutations and in all are= as of life -- But ...=0A=0AProximity does not an argument make. Your only = "critique" of Language Poetry here is that you have placed it next to "news= peak" and dubbed the placement a "thoughtcrime" by twisting a vague notion= (creation?) of Orwellian logic into a claim that the analytical nature of = Lang Po will cause such an emtional response ("outrage") that "thought is a= rrested." You are in essence engaging the dichotomy that if we feel, we th= erefore cannot think. The heart of your proposition is a silly default (an= d one that would keep the genders in the dark ages of men=3Drational, women= =3Demotional) -- most thinking folks acknowledge that our intellects are gu= ided by our emotions -- but the equation of fascism with Lang Po has not re= ndered me speechless or impotent though (my thoughts are not "arrested" nor= "outraged") -- but ultimately, I'm simply left wondering what you are att= empting to prove? And finally, I (and I don't think I'm alone here) am re= ally left to ask why you continue to produce "sensational-speak" around Lang Po without actually sa= ying what your problems are with that particular school of thought. =0A=0A= Amy=0A =0A_______ =0A =0ABlog=0A =0Ahttp://www.amyking.org/blog=0A =0AFacul= ty Page=0A =0Ahttp://faculty2.ncc.edu/kinga=0A=0A----- Original Message ---= -=0AFrom: David Chirot =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFF= ALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:36:01 PM=0ASubject: Re: Nazi L= iterature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1 o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ la= ngpo & fasc ism=0A=0A=0A =0AOrwell =0Ain =0Athe =0Asections =0Aon =0ALangua= ge =0Afollowing =0Athe =0Anovel =0A1984, =0Acharts=0Athe =0Adevelopment = =0Aof =0Anewspeak =0Ain =0Awhich =0Aopposing =0Aideas =0Acan =0Abe =0Areduc= ed=0Ainto =0Aone =0Aby =0Afinalizing =0Atheir =0Aconjunction =0Ain =0Aa =0A= single =0Aword. =0AThis =0Acauses=0Athe =0Aarresting =0Aof =0Athought =0Aat= =0Aa =0Athreshold =0Abeyond =0Awhich =0Ait =0Ais =0Anot=0Aallowed, =0Alet = =0Aalone =0Apossible, =0Ato =0Ago, =0Awithout =0Aentering =0Athe =0Asure-d= eath=0Azones =0Aof =0A"thoughtcrime."=0A=0ABy =0Aeven =0Aseeing =0Athe =0Aw= ords =0A"language =0Apoetry" =0Aand =0A"fascism" =0Ain =0Asuch =0Aclose=0Ap= roximity, =0Atwo =0Awords =0Abelieved =0Aas =0Aa =0Agospel =0Atruth =0Ato = =0Abe =0Aabsolutely,=0Acompletely =0Aantithetical =0A, =0Athought =0Abecome= s =0Aarrested =0Aand =0Ais =0Aturned =0Ainto=0Aoutrage =0Aat =0Awhat =0Ais = =0Aperceived =0Ato =0Abe =0Aa =0A"thoughtcrime."=0A=0AIn =0Aa =0Areal =0Ase= nse, =0Athis =0Aillustrates =0Ato =0Awhat =0Adegree =0Athe =0Aabsolute =0Ac= ontrol=0Aof =0Aa =0Asubject's =0Athoughts =0Ahas =0Ataken =0Aplace, =0Awit= hout =0Athe =0Asubject =0Abeing=0Aaware =0Aof =0Ait. =0AThe =0A"thoughtcri= me" =0Athat =0Aso =0Aoutrages =0Athe =0Asubject =0Ais=0Athought =0Ato =0Abe= =0A"unnatural," =0Aon =0Athe =0Aorder =0Aof =0Aa =0Ataboo, =0Arather =0Ath= an=0Aperhaps =0Asomething =0Aalong =0Athe =0Alines =0Aof =0Aa =0Arational = =0Aenquiry.=0A=0AIt =0Adoesn't =0Amatter =0Awhat =0Athe =0Areviewer =0Ahas = =0Aactually =0Awritten, =0Aal =0Athat=0Amatters =0Ais =0Athat =0Athey =0Aha= ve =0Acommitted =0Aa =0A"thoughtcrime", =0Asimply =0Aby =0Ahaving=0Athe =0A= two =0Awords =0Aclose =0Atogether =0Awithin =0Aa =0Asentence.=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ______________________________________________________= ______________________________=0ANever miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home = page. =0Ahttp://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 05:49:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wystan, your stance actually explains the only possible justification for c= iting language poetry in this context--precisely because it can be argued t= hat it represents the most sophisticatedly resistant political stance in co= ntemporary literature, it serves as a "for instance" of how in some context= any position whatsoever can be coopted; that is, it says, "even something = as ant-Fascist as this can be turned into a kind of Fascism." I'm not entir= ely sure I think the reviewer is smart enough to citing it in this way, rat= her than as a simpleminded example of whatever she doesn't like; the review= is not clearly enough written for that. =0A=0AAnd I have to say I am sorry= to see you, David, whom I respect immensely, taking the equation between l= anguage poetry and fascism as a given, which is simply ridiculous. I have t= o say about the language poets what someone here said about Pound--that mos= t of what most of us do could not have come to be done without them (and I = suspect the same is true of you too, David). Attacking them is attacking th= e foundations of our own (your own) efforts.=0A=0A----- Original Message --= --=0AFrom: Wystan Curnow =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.B= UFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, 26 February, 2008 11:02:24 PM=0ASubject: Re: Na= zi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1 o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/= langpo & fascism=0A=0AOf course, the substitution of 'language poetry' for= 'fascism', while made in passing is an outrageous slander. For me, no othe= r contemporary 'poetics'=0Ais both more political, and more sophisticated i= n its recognition of the inseparability of poetry and politics and more sec= urely of the left than that=0Aassociated with langpo ( who is not a ancient= chinese master translated by E. Pound). In this respect its 'critique' of = the 'self' and its revision of autobiography, is somewhat incidental; such= 'observers' who register it otherwise are precisely those who have the lar= gest and most powerful territory to maintain.=0A Wystan =0A=0A-----Or= iginal Message-----=0AFrom: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LIS= TSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of jared schickling=0ASent: Tuesday, 26 Februa= ry 2008 5:02 p.m.=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Nazi Li= terature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1 o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ lang= po & fascism=0A=0AFirst off thanks for this discussion, politics vis-a-vis = the literary. Though I haven't read Bolano (it's now on the list), the Tim= es reviewer seems to suggest that all visions and promotions of those visio= ns constitute fascism. Rather, fascism (its tenets parcelled out in detail= by plenty of observers elsewhere) constitutes a particular ideological str= anglehold. Langpo, or any literary movement, turns (or threatens to turn) = fascist only at the point where it becomes intolerant of alternative modes = of being. Perhaps langpo is subject to this charge only for the veracity a= nd (dare I say) effectiveness of its critique of the "self" as an organizin= g term, of the self as the site where meaning occurs, of the representation= al (of "outside" reference) in face of the self-referential nature of the s= ignifier. What many observers fail to mention is Language practioners' eve= ntual renunciation of certain prior criticisms. Dan Chiasson, for example,= notes Ron Silliman and Susan Howe's ventures into autobiography. I recently came ac= ross an expansive poem by Steve McCaffery in the newest edition of the Colo= rado Review that most certainly engages this planet, that is something more= than a fetishistic inquiry into the material quality of the word. And of = course there's Lyn Hejinian's "My Life." =0A=0AJared Schickling=0A=0A=0A=0A= > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:42:14 -0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: =0A> = Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - NYTBR--Nazi = =0A> Poetry/ langpo & fascism> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > How many= =0A> of us are comfortable in the delusion that non-artists who are racist= , =0A> sexist, etc. are harmless and should be tolerated for the lack of = =0A> their precious talent? Or that racist, sexist, fascist, authoritarians= =0A> should not be tolerated at all.> > the first sacrifice that must be = =0A> made in order to live in an open society is that one must commit to = =0A> tolerating repugnant ideas. that repugnant ideas are often expressed = =0A> beautifully is a warning to all thinking people that in and of itself = =0A> demands to be heard. the value of a talented pig is that it reminds us= =0A> to separate the aesthetic from the political for fear of being lured = =0A> by beauty into a realm of horrors.> > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Mary Jo= =0A> Malo wrote:> > > Nobody mocks the inherent elitism and tyranny of =0A= > literary movements> > quite like Roberto Bola=F1o. His characters eerily = =0A> exemplify this> > narcissism, also rife among the rebellious avant =0A= > garde, and eventually> > most face absurdity. He has the chilling =0A> ab= ility to portray the> > complicity of both powerful and confused =0A> ordin= ary people, each of whom> > believes art is more or less than it =0A> is. B= ola=F1o's theme of fascists as> > patron/artists deconstructs the =0A> valu= e of the arts. How many of us are> > comfortable in the delusion =0A> that = artists who are racist, sexist, etc.> > are harmless and should =0A> be tol= erated for the sake of their precious> > talent?> >> > Mary Jo =0A> Malo> >= > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 3:46 PM, David Chirot =0A> wrote:> >> Substitute, say, "language poetry" =0A> for "fascism" and t= he trajectory of> >> these invented lives would be =0A> much the same as th= ey are for the busy> >> networks of real writers =0A> Bola=F1o knew from th= e inside out . . .> >>> >> Who said literature has =0A> no real power to af= fect history? Not Bola=F1o -> >> for him, literature =0A> is an unnervingly= protean, amoral force with> >> uncanny powers of =0A> self-invention, self= -justification and> >> self-mythification. The =0A> mythmakers, he suggests= , certainly do matter.> >> If Hitler had won, =0A> for instance, the not en= tirely absurd stories in> >> this encyclopedia =0A> would be the prevailing= stories of the culture. Is> >> Nazi poetry an =0A> oxymoron? Not a bit of = it, posits Bola=F1o. On the> >> contrary, it's =0A> all too possible.> >>> = >> from Stacey D'Erasmo's review> >>> >> =0A> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/0= 2/24/books/review/D-Erasmo-t.html?ref=3Dboo=0A> ks ---> >>> >=0A___________= ______________________________________________________=0AClimb to the top o= f the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power.=0Ahttp://cl= ub.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 05:54:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "Lyn Hejinian, My Life". Rest of header flushed. From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: langpo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron Silliman, The Age of Huts=0ALyn Hejinian, My Life=0ABernstein and Andre= ws, eds., The Language Book=0Aand the ongoing collaborative work The Grand = Piano=0Awould probably be the best places to start.=0A=0A=0A----- Original = Message ----=0AFrom: John Cunningham =0ATo: POET= ICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, 27 February, 2008 1:28:18 PM=0A= Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=C3=B1o - - NY= TBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism=0A=0AI've been coming across the terms '= langpo' and 'language poetry' many times=0Ain this listserv. I must show my= ignorance as I'm relatively unfamiliar with=0Athese terms. In order to enh= ance my education, what books should I be=0Areading? What poets? Please kin= dly advise.=0AJohn Cunningham=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: UB Po= etics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0ABehalf Of= CA Conrad=0ASent: February 26, 2008 3:19 PM=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO= ..EDU=0ASubject: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=C3=B1o - -= NYTBR--Nazi=0APoetry/ langpo & fascism=0A=0AThis may help no one, what I'm= going to say. It might be meaningless. But=0AI know what it is, EXACTLY = what it is to want poets to be MORE, or better,=0Aor perfect, or something = along those lines, you know?=0A=0AThis is part of the challenge, to charge = headlong into such searches, needs,=0Awants, to allow disappointment, to al= low anger, to allow a certain amount of=0Astupidity even. The right amount= of stupidity allows room for getting out=0Aof the seriousness when it's ne= cessary.=0A=0AThis is endlessly painful in other words. Because we care. = Really,=0Aactually care.=0A=0AThis is a rotten truck load of shit coming do= wn the road for the fields.=0A=0AThis is going back to the conversation abo= ut Pound, and others, and, the=0Abigger question, I think, isn't whether we= should DAMN these other people,=0Abut learn and be different?=0A=0AIf we'r= e going to stand on shoulders shouldn't we be higher? What's the=0Apoint o= f emulating? What's the goal in all we want, ALL we want from=0Apoetry? O= ur goals for poetry have a lot to do with these bigger political,=0Asocial = issues having a chance to be seen clearer, and punctured to let the=0Ahot a= ir out.=0A=0ABut I still say the word fascism is a manipulative word in thi= s case. It's=0Aa loaded word. It conjures the worst possible forms of hat= red, and in the=0Aend to conflate that with LANGUAGE Poetry is plain fuckin= g wrong. Someone=0Ais going to have to be pretty damned clear with example= s before I entertain=0Asuch a word being used. It's a word that always sit= s in the hot coals,=0Awaiting to be used to make nothing but the most shock= ing example of someone,=0Aor some group.=0A=0AIn the end the word fascism i= s too often used by lazy, boring idiots who are=0Apissed off but don't have= any REAL way explaining their dilemma. There are=0Atoo suddenly all these= "experts" in the world of poetry who should really be=0Alooking for work i= n the wonderful world of fast food, since all they want in=0Athe end is a s= ide of fries to satisfy their "argument" of vague sauces and=0Aprotein.=0A= =0AThe Times has for too long been defending the kind of poetry which has d= one=0Aas much damage to our reputation around the world as Bush/Cheney/Rove= /Rice.=0AAnd in the end, if we had never invaded Iraq, the poets of Poland = and France=0Awill still think we're all Sharon Olds and Robert Bly. In oth= er words FUCK=0ATHE NEW YORK TIMES!=0A=0ACAConrad=0Ahttp://PhillySound.blog= spot.com =0A=0ANo virus found in this inc= oming message.=0AChecked by AVG Free Edition. =0AVersion: 7.5.516 / Virus D= atabase: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: 26/02/2008=0A7:50 PM=0A=0A=0ANo viru= s found in this outgoing message.=0AChecked by AVG Free Edition. =0AVersion= : 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: 26/02/2008=0A7:50= PM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:37:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dustin Williamson Subject: March 2nd in NYC: John Godfrey & Kimberly Lyons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sunday March 2 at the Zinc-TRS: JOHN GODFREY & KIMBERLY LYONS 6:30 PM Zinc Bar 90 West Houston (beneath the barbie fur shop) $5 goes to the poets. If you don't have $5, come anyway. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bios: KimberlyLyons is the author of Saline (Instance Press, 2005), Abracadabra (Granary Books, 2000) and Phototherapique forthcoming from YoYo labs/Ketalanche Press. Poems recently in a print magazine: OCHO, and two online magazines: Eeogh, and Critiphoria. She would like to invite everyone to an event she is helping to coordinate for Nesenkeag Farm and New Farmer's network on 3/22 at the Gershwin Hotel in NYC. Ask her about it. John Godfrey is the author of 26 Poems (Adventures in Poetry, 1971); Music of the Curbs (Adventures in Poetry, 1976); Dabble (Full Court Press, 1982); Where the Weather Suits My Clothes (Z Press, 1984); Midnight on Your Left (The Figures, 1988); Push the Mule (The Figures, 2001); and Private Lemonade (Adventures in Poetry, 2003). In the Fall of 2008 Wave Books will publish City of Corners. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:42:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Joey on 28th Street Comments: To: webartery , rhizome , netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jV31s4EOMU http://www.lewislacook.org/netcinema/joey.mp4 found video clips, recombined Joey, or DJ Joey, as he is affectionately called, is a young man in Lorain, Ohio, who spends most of his day dancing on the corner of 28th Street and Elyria Avenue to his boombox, waving and smiling at passing traffic. This video was constructed of footage found on YouTube, all dealing with Lorain, Ohio. This is the first video I’ve composed using the Open Source DV editor Kino on Linux. Lewis LaCook Director of Web Development Abstract Outlooks Media 440-989-6481 http://www.abstractoutlooks.com Abstract Outlooks Media - Premium Web Hosting, Development, and Art Photography http://www.lewislacook.org lewislacook.org - New Media Poetry and Poetics http://www.xanaxpop.org Xanax Pop - the Poetry of Lewis LaCook ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:42:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Jo Malo Subject: Re: langpo In-Reply-To: <300641.93584.qm@web65102.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://home.jps.net/~nada/language1.htm > > I've been coming across the terms 'langpo' and 'language poetry' many times > in this listserv. I must show my ignorance as I'm relatively unfamiliar with > these terms. In order to enhance my education, what books should I be > reading? What poets? Please kindly advise. > John Cunningham > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:36:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Manson Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc is In-Reply-To: <168632.76428.qm@web83309.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline i wanted to share my considerations & thoughts on this recent issue: It is surprising how the shock of seeing "language poetry" next to "fascism= " in the same sentence has created such response in the poetics list community=97most of whom know in a very meaningful way that language poetry was & is written out of a profound ethical need to counter the self-justifying myths and modes of writing that allow for vast oversights i= n the actual economic and political circumstances of our culture, and a need to disclose what is "hidden in plain sight" by means of the rhetorical form= s of our discourse. In my view, it aimed to transform the grammar, and to force the contradictions and hidden correspondences of these placating and euphemistic official/newspaper/TV-talking-head forms=97to look at the very language used by us, but also by the commercial, technical and bureaucratic world, as material, and also as the very means by which particular face-saving and "natural" attitudes are maintained and patrolled. If anything, this commitment to experience as it is lived HAS to be transforme= d if only to keep alive the sense of another mode of thinking, a way out. Th= e cognitive and theoretical dimensions of that effort are, I think, the reaso= n that it gets criticized on two fronts=97the first being the complexity of t= he effort, which may make it seem to be a very elite affair, and thus open to attacks for its abandonment of the general, less invested reading public, removing it from causal reading or the "absorption" that entertainment provides as a diversion from the very real constraints, oppressions and injustices each of us face in our daily lives and real transactions. Of course, in its stated or implicit left/ethical position it is again open to attack from the status quo of what Kenneth Rexroth characterized in 1961 as official American literature, the "pillowcase headdress" aesthetics of the Creative writing programs then being established=97does anyone remember tho= se "poetic objects" free of all links to a context (of a writer, a place, and an intention) and emerging as a beautiful ideal creations in the transcendent space of eternal pure forms? Oh, we don't have to remember them, because they are still the going thing. I know I have endeavored to write in these forms: they were part of my literary education. Even so, doubly condemned, the language poets have succeeded in making inroads into the academy and the developed intellectual culture, but I would propose the= y have done so in order to represent a very real, "plain sight" alternative t= o the ameliorative and collaborative cultural systems that would perpetuate the imbalances and antidemocratic forces holding sway at present, the forms and models that are winning our hearts and minds in order to continue exploiting American labor and immigrant populations, and perpetuate violent aggression. Now, I do not actively dislike any of the more celebrated & laurelled "court" poets I have met, because they are often enough very generous people, but it's a kind of bedside manner that they wear=97as the patient is dying, they are there with the warm towel and the hot cup of tea= . If anything, the language poets allow us to cognitively and aesthetically become aware of the depth of the crisis and the pleasure of perceiving its resolution=97and have labored to break & suture the language in very effect= ive ways. If the American academic and public institutions were adamant in refusing to recognize the contributions of this literary group, it truly would be fascist=97so at least the recognition of these artists and writers leads me to have a slender thread of hope that, though the "national" mind has been sorely blunted and dulled, it can still recognize what it has abandoned, and what may be useful in liberating itself from unearned privileges, ignorant prejudices, and the slavish ventriloquisms of conventional "wisdom". What is more startling to us than to hear people, workers, professionals, homeowners, reproducing the very sentiments that directly counter their own interests and livelihoods, as they exercise thei= r frustration by externalizing threats, fearing their own somatic drives, and turning in their neighbors as deviants and freeloaders? But I do think, qu= a literature, that the artistic "protest" and activity of innovative poetry cannot do enough to address these problems, the lack of perspective that continuously reasserts itself. I think that every person needs to have their own "kit" and skills for dismantling the subtle influence and seduction of convenience and consumerism as it is manifested in public discourse and commercial/professional appeal. It was what I saw as my central activity as a teacher of writing and literature=97get as many modes and possibilities for re-thinking, questioning, and re-creating the terms o= f art as could possibly delivered from within the educational framework. I did not, and still do not, abandon that avocation as a teacher, but I did find myself isolated further and further from the professional sphere as I went along teaching the conflicts and the "radical" writers, so that, at th= e moment, I am not teaching at all. I think this is a reflection, not of my effort, but of the degree of suspicion held against experimental form and teaching as an art of identifying injustice and helping a younger generatio= n learn new, creative, and potentializing activities. [sorry about the rant here, but four years of fruitless MLA job searching DOES take its toll]. T= o sum up, the reviewer at the New York Times wanted to force the issue=97what would we think if our most trusted examples of the current "free verse" wer= e revealed to be monstrous, brutal, and invested in the cruelest form of sociopathy? Just such an effect was made here in this forum, but it also got us to think usefully about what we assume to be just, ethical, and progressive=97and to ask ourselves if what we assumed would make the world = a better place wouldn't indeed turn out to cause enormous misery. The other dimension of this linkage is that it does NOT include the name of our most successful schools of poetry and writing, and cannot=97but we are definitel= y asked to see if the idea of the "new" could in fact be "The same old" and even "worse". There ARE wolves in sheep's clothing, and the commercial culture has been co-opting the idea of innovation, the new, and hip disobedience ever since the so-called rise of postmodern art & the free love/colonial war 1960s. (Though I agree that a lot of self-identified postmodernists were interested with, among other things, drowning the beast by glutting it with its own product, see my Flaff comments below). For me the most valuable lesson to be learned from this example is that we have to ask ourselves how we continue on when we can't feel or see the tangible effects of our own efforts to shake the system loose of its worst consequences, and to instill some sense of compassion, open-mindedness, and critical intelligence. It is useful to me, because I get the chance to articulate what this means in all its complexity. That, because of my studies, I would be considered a "post-language" poet (which I am not considered, nor consider myself to be) would mean that I was trying to perpetuate the questioning of language structures, though holding & articulating some sympathy for the basic modal pleasures that poetic forms can provide. I think one development of this "turn", the Flaff poets, suffers from the lack of context, because their works are not easily recognized as satire, and suffer from a technique of simple "mixing" (googlemix?) to create an effect that is hardly new, and that may be, and often is, perceived more as contemptuous of any evanescent "public" than productively engaging that public in questioning its assumptions. So there is a certain guilty pleasure involved in exercising blunt and crass impulse= s in this effort, even as much as I applaud the signal-jamming that it does. I think younger poets, when they are not discouraged by the many and attendant difficulties of working into their own productive means of creative, critical activity (as there are thousands of discouragements), ar= e anxious to meet or test general readerships once again, not in order to fee= l authoritative & provide pedantic admonitions, but to make some beneficial inroads into a public discourse that has been hijacked and sequestered from any meaningful continuities and responsive exchanges between "power" and "people". It IS possible to see language poetry, in some of its most careless (albeit rare) manifestations, as having turned its back on public discourse as not worth the effort & impossible to take seriously. But in doing so, I think it speaks to a more serious disinvestment in ideas of social bodies as really what we do "have" and need to keep active. I agree with some of my peers and friends that it may be best to let old-fashioned notions of identity die in order to let us get on with living, but even as we emerge into these newer forms of consciousness, perception, and correlation to others I think we are faced with the crisis of the choice between "banned books" and "translation". We miss too much when we flatly ban consideration of the past or make straw figures out of this or that representative example, rather than take up the work of translating what we've gone through, what was once held as a model of dynamic potential, in= to our new, and sometimes bewildering circumstances and conditions. We need equipment! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Daley Subject: Whored Tourist from Scantily Clad Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Listservers, I want to thank Andrew Lundwall and Scantily Clad Press for publishing an ebook of my series, Whored Tourist. Ebook can be found here . http://www.scribd.com/word/full/2176470?access_key=key-i1osr1n7zzbduh9fovt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:07:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: <016c01c87944$9dc99530$016fa8c0@johnbedroom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some, like me, call it LP too, like in "long playing". pure fun intended. aryanil=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of John Cunningham Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:28 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism I've been coming across the terms 'langpo' and 'language poetry' many = times in this listserv. I must show my ignorance as I'm relatively unfamiliar = with these terms. In order to enhance my education, what books should I be reading? What poets? Please kindly advise. John Cunningham =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:10:29 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Danny Snelson Subject: Re: langpo In-Reply-To: <300641.93584.qm@web65102.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline mmm.. . these articles / recollections / reconfigurations are important, bu= t after skimming those, a real glimpse of this mo(ve)ment's vitality can only come from the print media from wch it isinextricable. &so; respectfully, i disagree: continually & at any excuse i'd point interested readers to craig dworkin's essential archival geodesic storehous= e of 'the new trobar clus' at E C L I P S E . surely these primary documents are the best places to start? (go for eg: L=3DA=3DN=3DG.. . journal = 's full run, THIS index, LEGEND, &hey!; newly, TOTTEL'S full run!) maybe venturing across an author, collection or zine mentioned critically, not a bad idea to pull up facsimiles. (or, get 'em while you can!) similarly, i once digitized silliman's 'originary' (75) alcheringa collection here-- wch you can view in hi-res jpg& pdf. O! &re: this wild bola=F1o dispute, in a vein, i'll say this . yrs, danny On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > Ron Silliman, The Age of Huts > Lyn Hejinian, My Life > Bernstein and Andrews, eds., The Language Book > and the ongoing collaborative work The Grand Piano > would probably be the best places to start. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Cunningham > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, 27 February, 2008 1:28:18 PM > Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - > NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism > > I've been coming across the terms 'langpo' and 'language poetry' many > times > in this listserv. I must show my ignorance as I'm relatively unfamiliar > with > these terms. In order to enhance my education, what books should I be > reading? What poets? Please kindly advise. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] O= n > Behalf Of CA Conrad > Sent: February 26, 2008 3:19 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO..EDU > Subject: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - > NYTBR--Nazi > Poetry/ langpo & fascism > > This may help no one, what I'm going to say. It might be meaningless. > But > I know what it is, EXACTLY what it is to want poets to be MORE, or better= , > or perfect, or something along those lines, you know? > > This is part of the challenge, to charge headlong into such searches, > needs, > wants, to allow disappointment, to allow anger, to allow a certain amount > of > stupidity even. The right amount of stupidity allows room for getting ou= t > of the seriousness when it's necessary. > > This is endlessly painful in other words. Because we care. Really, > actually care. > > This is a rotten truck load of shit coming down the road for the fields. > > This is going back to the conversation about Pound, and others, and, the > bigger question, I think, isn't whether we should DAMN these other people= , > but learn and be different? > > If we're going to stand on shoulders shouldn't we be higher? What's the > point of emulating? What's the goal in all we want, ALL we want from > poetry? Our goals for poetry have a lot to do with these bigger > political, > social issues having a chance to be seen clearer, and punctured to let th= e > hot air out. > > But I still say the word fascism is a manipulative word in this case. > It's > a loaded word. It conjures the worst possible forms of hatred, and in th= e > end to conflate that with LANGUAGE Poetry is plain fucking wrong. Someon= e > is going to have to be pretty damned clear with examples before I > entertain > such a word being used. It's a word that always sits in the hot coals, > waiting to be used to make nothing but the most shocking example of > someone, > or some group. > > In the end the word fascism is too often used by lazy, boring idiots who > are > pissed off but don't have any REAL way explaining their dilemma. There > are > too suddenly all these "experts" in the world of poetry who should really > be > looking for work in the wonderful world of fast food, since all they want > in > the end is a side of fries to satisfy their "argument" of vague sauces an= d > protein. > > The Times has for too long been defending the kind of poetry which has > done > as much damage to our reputation around the world as > Bush/Cheney/Rove/Rice. > And in the end, if we had never invaded Iraq, the poets of Poland and > France > will still think we're all Sharon Olds and Robert Bly. In other words > FUCK > THE NEW YORK TIMES! > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: > 26/02/2008 > 7:50 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: > 26/02/2008 > 7:50 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:14:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jared schickling Subject: Re: langpo In-Reply-To: <300641.93584.qm@web65102.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 for a crash course see Silliman's anthology In the American Tree. =20 =20 > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 05:54:39 -0800> From: b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM>= Subject: langpo> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Ron Silliman, The Age= of Huts> Lyn Hejinian, My Life> Bernstein and Andrews, eds., The Language = Book> and the ongoing collaborative work The Grand Piano> would probably be= the best places to start.> > > ----- Original Message ----> From: John Cun= ningham > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> Sent= : Wednesday, 27 February, 2008 1:28:18 PM> Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in = the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism>= > I've been coming across the terms 'langpo' and 'language poetry' many ti= mes> in this listserv. I must show my ignorance as I'm relatively unfamilia= r with> these terms. In order to enhance my education, what books should I = be> reading? What poets? Please kindly advise.> John Cunningham> > -----Ori= ginal Message-----> From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTS= ERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On> Behalf Of CA Conrad> Sent: February 26, 2008 3:19 PM> = To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO..EDU> Subject: Nazi Literature in the Americas= - Roberto B o la=F1o - - NYTBR--Nazi> Poetry/ langpo & fascism> > This may= help no one, what I'm going to say. It might be meaningless. But> I know w= hat it is, EXACTLY what it is to want poets to be MORE, or better,> or perf= ect, or something along those lines, you know?> > This is part of the chall= enge, to charge headlong into such searches, needs,> wants, to allow disapp= ointment, to allow anger, to allow a certain amount of> stupidity even. The= right amount of stupidity allows room for getting out> of the seriousness = when it's necessary.> > This is endlessly painful in other words. Because w= e care. Really,> actually care.> > This is a rotten truck load of shit comi= ng down the road for the fields.> > This is going back to the conversation = about Pound, and others, and, the> bigger question, I think, isn't whether = we should DAMN these other people,> but learn and be different?> > If we're= going to stand on shoulders shouldn't we be higher? What's the> point of e= mulating? What's the goal in all we want, ALL we want from> poetry? Our goa= ls for poetry have a lot to do with these bigger political,> social issues = having a chance to be seen clearer, and punctured to let the> hot air out.>= > But I still say the word fascism is a manipulative word in this case. It= 's> a loaded word. It conjures the worst possible forms of hatred, and in t= he> end to conflate that with LANGUAGE Poetry is plain fucking wrong. Someo= ne> is going to have to be pretty damned clear with examples before I enter= tain> such a word being used. It's a word that always sits in the hot coals= ,> waiting to be used to make nothing but the most shocking example of some= one,> or some group.> > In the end the word fascism is too often used by la= zy, boring idiots who are> pissed off but don't have any REAL way explainin= g their dilemma. There are> too suddenly all these "experts" in the world o= f poetry who should really be> looking for work in the wonderful world of f= ast food, since all they want in> the end is a side of fries to satisfy the= ir "argument" of vague sauces and> protein.> > The Times has for too long b= een defending the kind of poetry which has done> as much damage to our repu= tation around the world as Bush/Cheney/Rove/Rice.> And in the end, if we ha= d never invaded Iraq, the poets of Poland and France> will still think we'r= e all Sharon Olds and Robert Bly. In other words FUCK> THE NEW YORK TIMES!>= > CAConrad> http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Editi= on. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: 26/0= 2/2008> 7:50 PM> > > No virus found in this outgoing message.> Checked by A= VG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Relea= se Date: 26/02/2008> 7:50 PM _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta= r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja= n= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:40:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B ola=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline David, while I like many of the things you have to offer in responding to Mary Jo, your assumption that "For the most part, responders don't seem to have actually read the review in its entirety" is curious to me. Maybe you can elaborate on how you came to this conclusion. But meanwhile... The fact is that Stacey D'Erasmo makes her pitch that LANGUAGE poetry is akin to these invented lives in Bolano's NAZI LITERATURE IN AMERICA. One of the bigger aspects of these invented lives in Bolano's writing (according to D'Erasmo) surrounds his characters writing work NOT being noticed, NOT being published, NOT being reviewed. The VERY FACT that D'Erasmo mentions LANGUAGE poetry like she does, with NO introduction, SHOWS that she knows we know. That alone shows how pointless her "argument" is. And let's just be perfectly honest here that it's OUTRAGEOUS she would use LANGUAGE poetry as an example, considering the number of Jewish LANGUAGE poets there are. This work by Bolano she sites is talking about anti semites. Is D'Erasmo THAT unfamiliar with what she thinks she knows so well? There are SO MANY people like D'Erasmo these days who THINK they KNOW who and what LANGUAGE poetry is, but really they don't. It's this term that gets thrown around by disgruntled, tedious professors and poets who don't really want to investigate. As long as professor So-And-So, or poet So-And-So says that LANGUAGE poetry is X-Y-Z, well then, IT MUST BE TRUE! The paper chase without lifting a hand toward the actual source is much of the problem. D'Erasmo's review is pathetic for the reason that she not only contradicts herself, but shows that she probably doesn't even know what the fuck she's talking about in the first place. I hope D'Erasmo's stupidity doesn't reflect negatively on the good name and work of Bolano. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:31:35 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Truscott Subject: Laynie Browne and Sina Queyras at Test (Toronto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Please join us for the next edition of the Test Reading Series: March 6, 2008, 8 p.m. LAYNIE BROWNE and SINA QUEYRAS (bios below) Mercer Union, A Centre for Contemporary Art 37 Lisgar Street, Toronto Free (small donations toward the running of the series gratefully accepted) More information (including sample work and contextual notes by the readers, recordings of previous readings, and a map): www.testreading.org. Hope to see you there, Mark ********************** LAYNIE BROWNE is the author of seven collections of poetry and one novel. Her most recent publications include The Scented Fox, recipient of the 2007 National Poetry Series Award, selected by Alice Notley (Wave Books), Daily Sonnets (Counterpath Books, 2007) and Drawing of a Swan Before Memory, winner of the Contemporary Poetry Series (University of Georgia Press, 2005). Of Daily Sonnets Ron Silliman writes: "It's a stunner and a delight. A pure dose of heady oxygen" and of Browne: "an icon for the generation of poets who are about to show up." She co-curated the Ear Inn reading series in New York and was a member of the Subtext Collective in Seattle, and is now part of the POG reading series in Tucson, Arizona. She has taught creative writing at the University of Washington, Bothell, at Mills College in Oakland and at the Poetry Center at the University of Arizona. SINA QUEYRAS is the author of three collections of poetry including Lemon Hound, which won a Lambda Award and the Pat Lowther Award. Her fourth collection of poetry, Expressway, will be published by Coach House in 2009. In 2005 she edited Open Field: 30 Contemporary Canadian Poets for Persea Books, and from 2005 to 2006 she co-curated the belladonna reading series in New York. She has taught at Poets House, Rutgers and Haverford, and is currently Markin-Flanagan Writer-in-Residence at the University of Calgary. She recently completed a collection of short fiction titled A Story With Severe Anxiety & Other Stories and is working on a novel titled Autobiography of Childhood. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:20:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc is In-Reply-To: <168632.76428.qm@web83309.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I think that there is an interesting discussion to be had around this: it's the same discussion as happened once between Hegel, the Young Hegelians and Feuerbach, the Marx and the same one as we had in the 1980's around questions about political correctness: when does the important work being done on langauge by poetry become a substitute for material change. How do these new subjectivities that langauge poetry supposedly created appear in the world? How do we make places for them? I think that it has to be a two way street. Think of Cuba's literacy movement. Or Lyn Hejinian who is just a very good persion. Or of Amiri Baraka--how he struggled with his experimenalist roots--and the post-langauge movement that both works with poupular culture and cliche, but through some very odd subjects and sentence structures. What Orwell was really writing about was not communism but the--is ironic the right word--distance that grew between langauge and life. The strange part of that is how inventive those communist, and (recently) American code words can be. <> that is really funny, and what good words. Very sensual this fear that they are trying to make. But if people just turn off then there gets to be these two realms... one of phrases, and another of life. On 2/27/08, amy king wrote: > I'm not sure what your issues with Language Poetry are, but I v > David, > > I'm not sure what your issues with Language Poetry are, but I venture to= say that no one else on this list does either. You address *none* of the = tenets of Lang Po below -- > > Instead, you have created the faultiest of logics by attempting to colla= pse any distinction between fascist thought that would have us all ignore t= he manipulative uses of language, leaving it unexamined in favor of accepti= ng (and enforcing) one belief system (and one select group)--regardless of = how detrimental it is to society as a whole--with Language Poetry, which, a= t its simplest, seeks to remove poetry from an insular place and encourages= us to make connections and analyze just how language can manipulate, in al= l of its permutations and in all areas of life -- But ... > > Proximity does not an argument make. Your only "critique" of Language P= oetry here is that you have placed it next to "newspeak" and dubbed the pla= cement a "thoughtcrime" by twisting a vague notion (creation?) of Orwellia= n logic into a claim that the analytical nature of Lang Po will cause such = an emtional response ("outrage") that "thought is arrested." You are in es= sence engaging the dichotomy that if we feel, we therefore cannot think. T= he heart of your proposition is a silly default (and one that would keep th= e genders in the dark ages of men=3Drational, women=3Demotional) -- most th= inking folks acknowledge that our intellects are guided by our emotions -- = but the equation of fascism with Lang Po has not rendered me speechless or = impotent though (my thoughts are not "arrested" nor "outraged") -- but ulti= mately, I'm simply left wondering what you are attempting to prove? And = finally, I (and I don't think I'm alone here) am really left to ask why you > continue to produce "sensational-speak" around Lang Po without actually= saying what your problems are with that particular school of thought. > > Amy > > _______ > > Blog > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > Faculty Page > > http://faculty2.ncc.edu/kinga > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: David Chirot > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:36:01 PM > Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1 o - - = NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism > > > > Orwell > in > the > sections > on > Language > following > the > novel > 1984, > charts > the > development > of > newspeak > in > which > opposing > ideas > can > be > reduced > into > one > by > finalizing > their > conjunction > in > a > single > word. > This > causes > the > arresting > of > thought > at > a > threshold > beyond > which > it > is > not > allowed, > let > alone > possible, > to > go, > without > entering > the > sure-death > zones > of > "thoughtcrime." > > By > even > seeing > the > words > "language > poetry" > and > "fascism" > in > such > close > proximity, > two > words > believed > as > a > gospel > truth > to > be > absolutely, > completely > antithetical > , > thought > becomes > arrested > and > is > turned > into > outrage > at > what > is > perceived > to > be > a > "thoughtcrime." > > In > a > real > sense, > this > illustrates > to > what > degree > the > absolute > control > of > a > subject's > thoughts > has > taken > place, > without > the > subject > being > aware > of > it. > The > "thoughtcrime" > that > so > outrages > the > subject > is > thought > to > be > "unnatural," > on > the > order > of > a > taboo, > rather > than > perhaps > something > along > the > lines > of > a > rational > enquiry. > > It > doesn't > matter > what > the > reviewer > has > actually > written, > al > that > matters > is > that > they > have > committed > a > "thoughtcrime", > simply > by > having > the > two > words > close > together > within > a > sentence. > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________= _________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:00:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kelly Moffett Subject: Call for WordArt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CALL FOR WORDART The annual Kentucky's Retreat for Women Writers, in association with Kentucky Wesleyan College and Brescia University, is accepting submissions for the exhibition "WordArt", to be held July 25-28, 2008 at Brescia University. =20 WordArt is a group exhibition of art works that use language as a compositional element, particularly art that focuses on letterforms, writing, or text. Art may be submitted by male or female artists living in KY, TN, IN and IL only. Thematic focus for the exhibition is open, as is any media including installation or video. 4-6 artists will be chosen, with 4-6 text-based works accepted from each artist, depending on size. Participating artists will have an opportunity to present and discuss their work during the retreat at the opening reception and during associated KRWW events. Funding to support shipping costs is limited but can be addressed on an as needed basis. Submissions will be juried by KRWW's visual artist-in-residence Julie Gawne, Associate Professor of Art and Graphic Design at Kentucky Wesleyan College. Julie Gawne Kentucky Wesleyan College 3000 Frederica Street Owensboro, KY 42301 jgawne@kwc.edu Submissions must be received by April 15, 2008. Notification of acceptance will be sent by May 15, 2008. Please submit an artist resume with contact information, 6-10 representative artwork images, digital images (approximately 1200 pixel dimensions or higher, in jpeg format) or standard slides, and a SASE for return of your submission materials. Link to event: http://www.kwc.edu/academic_detail.asp?page=3DKentucky's%20Retreat%20for%= 2 0Women%20Writers or go to www.kwc.edu and click the "Academics" tab. =20 Kelly Moffett Director of Creative Writing Assistant Professor of English Kentucky Wesleyan College 3000 Frederica Street Owensboro, KY 42301 270-852-3225 kmoffett@kwc.edu=20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:09:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Lit Live MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone here in Hamilton, Ontario? Please come! =20 Camille Martin =20 Featured readers at the Lit Live Reading Series: =20 Ruth Edgett Mike Freeman Garry Gottfriedson Camille Martin Stan Rogal =20 Sunday, March 2, 7:30 pm The Lit Live Reading Series Sky Dragon Centre 27 King William Street Hamilton, Ontario http://litlive.blogspot.com/ =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:19:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B ola=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed D'Erasmo may be ignorant of langpo, but the simplest received understanding of it is adequate to explain her reference, I think-- (and how wonderful that someone on _this list_ recently needs to ask, sincerely, what the term means!)-- I don't think the implicit argument works along the lines "langpo=nazism"-- rather, I think, it's along the lines of "fascism=communism (langpo) =extremism= poor, deluded, political writers who fail to share in the comfortable bourgeois certainties of the NY Times" Nick On Feb 27, 2008, at 8:40 AM, CA Conrad wrote: > David, while I like many of the things you have to offer in > responding to > Mary Jo, your assumption that "For the most part, responders don't > seem to > have actually read the review in its entirety" is curious to me. > Maybe you > can elaborate on how you came to this conclusion. But meanwhile... > > The fact is that Stacey D'Erasmo makes her pitch that LANGUAGE > poetry is > akin to these invented lives in Bolano's NAZI LITERATURE IN AMERICA. > > One of the bigger aspects of these invented lives in Bolano's writing > (according to D'Erasmo) surrounds his characters writing work NOT > being > noticed, NOT being published, NOT being reviewed. The VERY FACT that > D'Erasmo mentions LANGUAGE poetry like she does, with NO > introduction, SHOWS > that she knows we know. That alone shows how pointless her > "argument" is. > > And let's just be perfectly honest here that it's OUTRAGEOUS she > would use > LANGUAGE poetry as an example, considering the number of Jewish > LANGUAGE > poets there are. This work by Bolano she sites is talking about anti > semites. Is D'Erasmo THAT unfamiliar with what she thinks she > knows so > well? > > There are SO MANY people like D'Erasmo these days who THINK they > KNOW who > and what LANGUAGE poetry is, but really they don't. It's this term > that > gets thrown around by disgruntled, tedious professors and poets who > don't > really want to investigate. As long as professor So-And-So, or poet > So-And-So says that LANGUAGE poetry is X-Y-Z, well then, IT MUST BE > TRUE! > > The paper chase without lifting a hand toward the actual source is > much of > the problem. D'Erasmo's review is pathetic for the reason that she > not only > contradicts herself, but shows that she probably doesn't even know > what the > fuck she's talking about in the first place. > > I hope D'Erasmo's stupidity doesn't reflect negatively on the good > name and > work of Bolano. > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:08:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Margaret Konkol Subject: Digital poetry/Dr. Francisco Marinho, DMS Visiting Scholar from Brazil] Comments: To: Poetics+ In-Reply-To: <47C55902.9090804@buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Guest Speaker: Dr. Francisco Marinho, Federal University of Minas Gerais, Belo Horizonte, Brazil Title of Talk: Multimodal Digital Poetry and Transdisciplinarity Date: Tuesday, March 4, 5 - 6 PM Location: CFA 235 Professor Francisco Marinho is a resident researcher of IEAT (Transdisciplinary Advanced Studies Institute) of UFMG, Federal University of Minas Gerais (Belo Horizonte, Brazil) and Co-director of Midia@rte , (Media and Art Laboratory, School of Fine Arts). He is in residence at UB as a Visiting Scholar in the Department of Media Study where he is working with Professor Vibeke Sorensen on the collaborative research project "Open Books." On Tuesday March 4 at 5 PM in CFA 235, he will be giving a talk about his prize-winning interactive installation Palavrador (multimodal digital poetry) which was exhibited at ACM SIGGRAPH 2007 in San Diego. It is currently installed in CFA 252. In addition, Professor Marinho will speak about transdisciplinary media research interests at UFMG and a possible agreement between the Department of Media Study at UB and UFMG. Additional information about Palavrador: Palavrador is an interactive computer artwork conceived and produced in 2006, during the 38=BA Winter Festival sponsored by UFMG in Diamantina (UNESCO World Heritage Centre). Over a 15 day period, artists and professors from Brazilian Universities and abroad used a transdisciplinary methodology to create content that would reflect the complex scenario entwining arts, science and philosophy. At this multimedia workshop, a proposal for a work created through collective authorship mixing visual arts, literature and music emerged. Palavrador is a poetic cyberworld built in 3D. It uses computational procedures applying artificial life behaviors based on autonomous agents, and computer graphics techniques to create poetic expressions. It was conceived and implemented as a result of synergetic collective assemblage of ideas and activities of the group. Authors with backgrounds in arts, literature, and computer science worked together in order to conceive and produce a cyberworld which has an interface as interactive as games, as dynamic as motion pictures, and as deep as poetic discourse. Please do not send messages to the entire list when you intend only to reply to the sender. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:35:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: quotations from the Oulipo Compendium In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hi; just chiming in, because the unpublished sequel to DaDaDa is called OOD: Object-Oriented Design. I'm not really a programmer programmer, never was. But I wrote a few ADMs. The ood idea for us was the opportunity to reduce, reuse, recycle the objects, sorta like a script library or template, but, you know, not. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:33:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Jo Malo Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: <01d901c8795a$d826d420$ea2c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, we could cut to the chase and discuss whether or not language poetry has or could become hegemonic. Is it inclusive enough to avoid becoming so? Fascism is such an inflammatory word, one which even the Right is hurling upon the Left! Mary Jo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:06:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robe rto B ola[ISO-8859-1] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - NYTBR--N azi Poetry/ langpo & fascism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Tedious professors believe Language Poetry = Weird Grammar and Nonsense sentences. On Wed, 27 Feb 2008, CA Conrad wrote: > David, while I like many of the things you have to offer in responding to > Mary Jo, your assumption that "For the most part, responders don't seem to > have actually read the review in its entirety" is curious to me. Maybe you > can elaborate on how you came to this conclusion. But meanwhile... > > The fact is that Stacey D'Erasmo makes her pitch that LANGUAGE poetry is > akin to these invented lives in Bolano's NAZI LITERATURE IN AMERICA. > > One of the bigger aspects of these invented lives in Bolano's writing > (according to D'Erasmo) surrounds his characters writing work NOT being > noticed, NOT being published, NOT being reviewed. The VERY FACT that > D'Erasmo mentions LANGUAGE poetry like she does, with NO introduction, SHOWS > that she knows we know. That alone shows how pointless her "argument" is. > > And let's just be perfectly honest here that it's OUTRAGEOUS she would use > LANGUAGE poetry as an example, considering the number of Jewish LANGUAGE > poets there are. This work by Bolano she sites is talking about anti > semites. Is D'Erasmo THAT unfamiliar with what she thinks she knows so > well? > > There are SO MANY people like D'Erasmo these days who THINK they KNOW who > and what LANGUAGE poetry is, but really they don't. It's this term that > gets thrown around by disgruntled, tedious professors and poets who don't > really want to investigate. As long as professor So-And-So, or poet > So-And-So says that LANGUAGE poetry is X-Y-Z, well then, IT MUST BE TRUE! > > The paper chase without lifting a hand toward the actual source is much of > the problem. D'Erasmo's review is pathetic for the reason that she not only > contradicts herself, but shows that she probably doesn't even know what the > fuck she's talking about in the first place. > > I hope D'Erasmo's stupidity doesn't reflect negatively on the good name and > work of Bolano. > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:47:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mary jo nice to have you back steve d On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:36:01 -0800 David Chirot writes: > Thank you Mary Jo for a very succinct communication of many facets > of > Bolano's writings. > > "They're going to knock the house down They'll rip out the > basement. > It's where one of Jimmy's men killed the Spanish UNESCO official. > It's where Jimmy killed that Cecilia Sanchez Poblete woman. > Sometimes > I'd be watching television with the children, and the lights would > go > out for a while. We never heard anyone yell, the electricity just > cut > out and then came back. Do you want to go see the basement? . . . > .and > she said, That's how literature is made in Chile. I nodded and > left. > While I was driving back to Santiago, I thought about what she had > said. That is how literature is made in Chile, but not just in > Chile, > in Argentina and Mexico too, in Guatemala and Uruguay, in Spain and > France and Germany, in green England and carefree Italy. That is > how > literature is made. Or at least what we call literature, to keep > ourselves from falling into the rubbish dump." > Roberto Bolano, By Night in Chile > > For the most part, responders don't seem to have actually read the > review in its entirety, let alone any works by Bolano. I hope like > Jarid many readers go on to read Bolano's works, truly among the > most > extraordinary written and published in the last decades of the 20th > century and first years of the 21st. (Bolano died in 2003, aged > fifty, > of liver cancer and chain smoking combined. The extreme > production > of his final years was undertaken to ensure that his widow and > their > son would have an income after his death.) > > Bolano's works are especially interesting today, in this country > From Bolano one learns the shocks and methods from the inside of > how Fascism, so long invisible in its approach, by its posing, say, > as > a fellow student in avant-garde poetry classes as does "Alberto > Tagle-Ruiz" ( aka Carlos Weider in Bolano's Distant Star-)-,how > Fascism, someday, overnight--in the morning--calmly announces > itself > as in charge. > > (Weider and Distant Star grew out of the character Lieutenant > Ramirez > Hoffman, whose story is the final entry in Nazi Literatures of the > Americas.) > > And that suspicious seeming poet in the classes, who dates the most > beautiful and talented twins, stars of an avant-garde's early > moments, > turns out to be none other than this Lieutenant in the Air Force, > and > the ambitious creator of what is to be the New Chilean Poetry--a > combination of sky writing, strange essays and perhaps plagiarized > poetries, and their crowning achievement, a privately shown > exhibition of photographs covering a room except for the floor, in > which are displayed the tortured and dismembered bodies of a great > number of the recently, "missing" local young people, students, > primarily young women, including maybe both of the twins. > > For a long time it has been advancing, the symptoms are there all > the > time, hidden in plain sight, yet until the fatal moment is reached, > no > one wants to think, hear or see that it is remotely possible. > > One of the things that Bolano examines is something which has just > occurred here--the rush to a judgement and opinion born of a few > words, ("language poetry," "fascism") which one is trained not to > think of as sharing in any way possible an affinity, nor ever > occurring in the same sentence. Without thinking of a further > enquiry > into the review itself or the author reviewed's books, or their > backgrounds--all that "context" which people at times claim that > they > owe their awareness of to various of the language poet > authors/authorities--without further enquiry, a judgment is passed, > and the matter considered "taken care of." > > Orwell in the sections on Language following the novel 1984, > charts > the development of newspeak in which opposing ideas can be reduced > into one by finalizing their conjunction in a single word. This > causes > the arresting of thought at a threshold beyond which it is not > allowed, let alone possible, to go, without entering the > sure-death > zones of "thoughtcrime." > > By even seeing the words "language poetry" and "fascism" in such > close > proximity, two words believed as a gospel truth to be absolutely, > completely antithetical , thought becomes arrested and is turned > into > outrage at what is perceived to be a "thoughtcrime." > > In a real sense, this illustrates to what degree the absolute > control > of a subject's thoughts has taken place, without the subject being > aware of it. The "thoughtcrime" that so outrages the subject is > thought to be "unnatural," on the order of a taboo, rather than > perhaps something along the lines of a rational enquiry. > > It doesn't matter what the reviewer has actually written, al that > matters is that they have committed a "thoughtcrime", simply by > having > the two words close together within a sentence. > > It is this kind of reality that many of Bolano's characters are > forced > to face: torture in the basement, the literary salon right > overhead. > This has now become the reality in the USA--torture discussed in > the > Senate on tv while drinks are poured and people discuss the latest > literary bons mots and events, fads, For al the discussants know, > the > person in the next apartment could be "disappearing" into the > rendition flight oblivions of "black sites" and "secret prisons." > Meanwhile the phone, the computer, the banking records and store > purchases, the gasoline consumption and drinking habits, the > preferred > reading tastes and favorite musics of the gathered company are > completely transparent to the authorities. > > Fascism becomes so much a part of the landscape that it blends > right > into the feng shui arrangements of the room's decor and seeps > steadily > into the thoughts and responses of the literary get together. > > The American scene becomes a "remake" of one in Bolano's By Night > in Chile, > the literary salon noted by the reviewer that takes place above a > labyrinthine series of corridors in the basement which lead to > various > torture cells. The owner of this establishment is Jimmy, (cited > above > in the quote), an American who is often "away on business" and who > supports his wife's literary ambitions and her well attended > soirees. > > As it is later revealed, Jimmy, who leaves Chile and his family > behind with the end of the Fascist regime--is an agent of the > American > CIA or some other "Special" or "Dark" Ops group in charge of the > training, overseeing and funding of the Chilean "experiment" so > brilliantly and ferociously described in Melanie Klein's Shock > Doctrine. The USA today is a "remake" of Friedman's Pinochet > implemented Shock economics combined with the use of extreme force > and > torture, in the name of security and national defense. The one > change > so far being that only a few American citizens as yet have been > subjected to the extra-legal treatment reserved for our "enemy > combatants" > > The coup in Chile took place on a 9/11--in 1973. For Melanie > Klein, > 9/11 2001 allowed a similar Shock Doctrine to be installed in the > USA, > without the need of physical force, but accompanied by the steady > removal of democratic rights, the implementation of mass > surveillance > and security systems and the invasion of and dispensing with Civil > and > Human rights in the name of Homeland Security. > > Invasion of privacy is accompanied by the privatization of as much > of > the public sector as possible, directing billions of public monies > in > to the coffers of the few--the privatized corporations, > contractors, > management specialists, reconstruction specialist, arms dealers who > make up the bulk of the nation's budget. > The declaration of the "unending War" on "Terrorism" in which the > President can now personally decide who is and who is not "an enemy > combatant" means the country becomes in effect a corporate-military > machine with a minimal government which is increasingly > concentrated > in the role of the Chief Executive. > > That Americans today face the situations which Bolano writes of > --in > large part caused by American power and interests-- gives his work > an > added power, as that which one is taught "can't happen here," is > happening here. The effect is not unlike that of what the > military-intelligence calls "blowback." > > What the reviewer is saying, I think, is that if the writers in > Nazi Literatures of the Americas were "language poets" and not > "fascists," their careers would be on the "winning" side rather > than > the "losing." That is, they would be, like the language poets, the > writers acceptable to the State and the society and their > self-mythologizing would be and is part of a Nationalist Narrative. > Their recognition throughout the "official" culture of academies, > memberships in the National Academies such as Arts and Letters, > their > positions as Authorities" and "Authors" of "radical, innovative" > works, of blogs and "canon formations"--al of these things are > acceptable because they are a part of the overarching discourse of > the > National Agenda. In this agenda, America is Number One--in the > military-corporate avant-garde and in the literary and artistic > avant-garde. What counts is the supremacy, unquestioned, of Power, > of > being Number One. > > That is why something as simple as seeing "fascism" and "language > poetry" in the same sentence can cause such an immediate and heated > outrage. The mere thought that there should ever be any such thing > as > a question or statement involving or not even involving but merely > mentioning together these words, is something not only not > allowed, > but "impossible." > > Bolano's work makes clear just how many impossible things > are > not only possible, but can be suddenly revealed as the reality one > lives in, which has been there al the time, hidden in plain sight, > and > simply waiting for the moment to emerge from its camouflaged > "normalcy" to reveal --who knows--the being of the Supreme Author, > the Dictator of the New State of Emergency and suspension of all > laws > other the Martial. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:46:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: March Readings in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dan what for you is a good poetry event/reading there are so many of them On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:33:37 +1300 Dan Salmon writes: > Hi Folks, > > I'll be staying in NYC for the second half of March, if there are > any good > poetry events or readings, I'd love to be emailed details. > > Thanks, > > Dan > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:41:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Emanent new-work in the true world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Emanent new-work in the true world Please note: If you check http://www.alansondheim.org/ every few days, just click on recent images/videos/textfiles. We're beginning radio-work in relation to the National Radio Quiet Zone in West Virginia. Sedlock works with a vibration transducer, sensitive from around .1hz-400hz, as well as a NASA Inspire very low frequency radio and long-wire antenna. Foofwa d'Imobilite and Sedlock completed a set of split-node motion capture work; I've been putting up examples. Azure, Foofwa, and Sedlock worked on a group of large laser scans with and without movement; these are still being processed. Abjection smears sound/space/time/inscription across vibration, vlf radio, scan, motion capture - work either at the limit, or smeared from the center. The center dissolves with sheave-skin but recuperates with shell thickening in 3d post-processing software. So far I'm fascinated by the images/sounds; although the differences with the avatar/mocap videos may appear minute, they represent fairly large- scale behavior differences in the studio. Kira Sedlock: vibration-meter-work http://www.alansondheim.org/shimmed.mp4 Kira Sedlock: very-low-frequency-radio-work http://www.alansondheim.org/vvllff.mp4 Foofwa d'Imobilite and Kira Sedlock: motion-capture-work, construction of a troubled narrative http://www.alansondheim.org/bop91and92.mp4 Comments forthcoming. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:45:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Nick LoLordo wrote: >D'Erasmo may be ignorant of langpo, but the simplest received >understanding of it is adequate to explain her reference, I think-- >(and how wonderful that someone on _this list_ recently needs to ask, >sincerely, what the term means!)-- Nick, yes, it's GREAT someone asked when not knowing, that's my point: ASK. D'Erasmo doesn't ask, she assumes to know. But still, she DOES KNOW that LANGUAGE poets exist! And it's one thing for someone on this list to ask, and yet entirely ANOTHER thing for someone writing for one of the most read, most respected newspapers on the planet to NOT ask when she obviously should ask. Her point is that Bolano's point is that his invented characters are ignored, unknown, chomping away at their typewriters, or computers, or whatever they use to write their hate-filled literature. Okay, first of all, LANGUAGE poets are clearly NOT unknown, maybe not known as they should be, but they are recognized, to the point D'Erasmo casually mentions them in her stupid book review. Second, these Bolano characters are writing Nazi literature. If D'Erasmo doesn't know enough about who and what is LANGUAGE poetry, how on earth are we to trust that she's lifting Bolano's ideas into this higher abstract of seeing LANGUAGE poetry as fitting some compulsory equation for all avant garde groups to slide into with HELLISH authority? Are we to not inform ourselves at some point that LANGUAGE poetry is inhabited by real live people who happen be real and live presently and are as capable of seeing their way to their lives and this world through poetry as any other school or philosophy? And it really is not asking too much that the New York Times get better fucking editors who INSIST their writers know what the fuck they're actually writing about. Frankly! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:19:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: SUBTEXT READING: Steve McCaffery & Interrupture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subtext continues its monthly reading series with readings by Steve McCaffe= ry & Interrupture at our new home at the Chapel Performance Space on the 5t= h of March 2008. Donations for admission ($5 to $10 suggested) will be take= n at the door on the evening of the performance. The reading starts at 7:30= pm. Steve McCaffery is a poet, performance / intermedia artist and critic.= Author of more than 40 books of poetry, criticism and one novel. He was a = founding member of TRG (Toronto Research Group) and the Four Horsemen sound= -text ensemble. Briefly associated with Fluxus he has two commissioned piec= es in the Fluxus Collection of Francesco Conz. His most recent poetry colle= ctions are The Basho Variations (Book Thug) and Paradigm of the Tinctures (= Granary Books). A substantial collection, Slightly Left of Thinking, is for= thcoming from Chax Press. He is David Gray Professor of Poetry and Letters,= University at Buffalo and a core faculty member of the UB Poetics Program.= This is the first time Steve McCaffery has read in Seattle. Site: http://e= pc.buffalo.edu/authors/mccaffery/Sound: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennso= und/x/McCaffery.html http://epc.buffalo.edu/linebreak/programs/mccaffery/In= tellection: http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2007winter/mccaffery.shtml Inter= rupture a game for two or more poets. Composition-game structure by Bryant = Mason, a founding member of Seattle's Subtext Collective. This is the 3rd i= nning of the game, first performed in 2006 as part of "Shard - an explorati= on of textual fragments" at the Center on Contemporary Art in Seattle and m= ore recently in July of 2007 as part of Nonsequitur's Festival of Wayward M= usic. Players may include: Curtis Bonney, Daniel Comiskey, Kreg Hasegawa, B= ryant Mason & Maged Zaher. The future Subtext schedule is: April 2, 2008 F= red Wah (Vancouver) & Lou RowanAugust 6, 2008 George Bowering (Vancouver) &= Marion Kimes For info on these & other Subtext events, see our website at = http://subtextreadingseries.blogspot.com More info at Nonsequitur web site:= http://nseq.blogspot.com Details on the Chapel at: http://gschapel.blogspo= t.com SPECIAL THANKS to NONSEQUITUR for co-sponsoring this event. +++ OTHER= EVENTS OF NOTE Performance at the Rendezvous Jewel Box Theater, 2320 2nd A= ve Friday, Feb. 29, 7:30 PM: Bill Horist plays solo guitar, Wally Shoup pla= ys sax with drummers Bob Rees and Dave Abramson in another set, and in a so= lo set, Doug Nufer channels Jackie Mason, Perry Mason, and a verbal version= of Chainsaw Jason. Readings at Open Books: A Poem Emporium (2414 N. 45th = St.) Friday / March 7 at 7:30 PM: Noah Eli Gordon & Joshua Marie Wilkinson = Thursday / March 20 at 7:30 PM: Robert Mittenthal & Nico Vassilakis +++ =20 = ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:17:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Oulipo manifestos ++ MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit according to the oulipo compendium, there have been three oulipo manifestos. here are two of them: http://centerforbookculture.org/context/no6/lionnais.html also, here ( http://centerforbookculture.org/dalkey/backlist/motte.html ) are three articles about Oulipo practitioners Jacques Jouet,Georges Perec, and Marcel Benabou, by Warren Motte, who is the author of Small Worlds and Poetics of Experiment: A Study of the World of Georges Perec, and has edited the anthology Oulipo: A Primer of Potential Literature. thanks to angela genusa on the digitalpoetry list for these links. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:54:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Speculative '60's redux post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In case anyone has not begun to notice, the country, if not the world is about to get a huge 'rush' of '60's revisits from a variety of practically parallel historic eruptions and incidents. Ironically, these rememberances will be compatible with the vigorous rush within, behind and in opposition to the youth filled Obama rush. April 23 will be the 40th anniversary of Columbia 1968, which preceded Chicago '68, and Paris Fall '68, all of which were a relative Mandarin umbrella over the emergence of diverses black liberation struggles (Black Panthers, Black Muslims, Rap Brown), Feminism, Chicano liberation, etc. etc. All of which - in this country, at least - a heavily racist, mysogynist right wing has been literally 'hell bent' to repress, ignore for much of the last 40 years. This 60's period - roughly until 1978 - also provoked the emergence of liberations in music (free form jazz - Sun Ra, Chicago Art Ensemble, Meredith Monk) - dance (Simon Forti, Ann Halperin, etc), theater (Growtowski, The Living Theater), and, least of all, poetry. Forms and conventions broken and pushed to the max, the history of much of which has been maxed into the darkness. (True some of it went way overboard and there were real casualties. My favorite satire - not completely as such - is "My Dinner With Andre." I would suggest - particularly in the recent attention and absorption with Lang Po and its various internal and external views of historical significance - that what should be, ideally, a rich and informed revisit to significant political and cultural events of - to be accuarate let's call it 1965 to 1975 - that folks might question what has been lost, if not literally killed from that era. And, while doing that maybe juxtapose the significance of Lang Po to that history - what was refuted, ignored or rejected? What was absorbed? My suspicion is that we are back in a great big historical swirl. If the Right has applied their equivalent of botox to make a disfiguration of history, I suspect, or want to, that, Obama's campaign notwithstanding, we might be going back and forward into some real unhinging. A botox removal? Suspect after 7 years of this blatantly repressive, counter-imaginative regime, the country is ready for a new, and adventurous ride. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 06:27:58 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: new on Behind the Lines Poetry blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Look, I know that the blogosphere is saturated, your brain-time tapped out, but if any of this interests you, go ahead and read it. You'll notice that I've been doing a bunch of poetry book reviews. If you send me a copy, I'll certainly read it, and there's a solid chance I could review it. Call it a bit of poetic service. Here's the latest from http://behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com "From Reznikoff to Public Enemy"/A Poetry Foundation Podcast Simone Muench's Lampblack & Ash/Anti-Valentines for Desnos Jenny Holzer's "Projections" Yes, Israeli-Palestinian Comedy Frederick Seidel, John Berryman, & the Poetics of Self-Shadenfreude Mark Pawlak's Official Versions Anyone Who Wears Other Nations' Dress Can Be My Prez Phil Ochs' "I Ain't Marching Anymore" & Banana Politics R.E.M.'s "Talk about the Passion" James Bishop's "Basic Training"/What it Looks Like... R.E.M.'s "World Leader Pretend" Husker Du's "Divide and Conquer" "To See the Earth" "The Empire in the Air" by Kevin Prufer Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss Saw Wai's Poetic Valentine Was a Slap in the Face to His Dear Leader Suheir Hammad on Resisting the War William Stafford & the Field Where the Battle Did Not Take Place Arab American Writing and War, the AWP panel 2008 "Gitmo" and American Pop Culture "Books That Will Change the World" by Rebecca Solnit Barack Obama and Hope Mark Halperin's Falling Through the Music "Secrets and Lies"/The Poetry Reading Tony Tost's "World Jelly"/Guided by Guided by Voices Ralph DiGia, Thank You and Peace "The Strangulation of Gaza" article in The Nation The Famous Meta-Free-Phor-All on the Colbert Report Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 06:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: documentary poetry stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, here's the podcast for "From Reznikoff to Public Enemy," now called "From Charles Reznikoff to Chuck D" (though it should probably be called "to Flava Flav," since I do a reading of "911 is a Joke"). http://www.poetryfoundation.org/journal/audioitem.html?id=318 Thanks to Curtis Fox for making me sound like I know what I'm talking about. Ah, the miracles of editing. As for the article itself, you can find it here. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/journal/feature.html?id=180213 Please do send me other examples, if you have them, your or others' poetry, as I'm always intrigued by bringing "the news" and the historical into dialogue with the poetic Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:00:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: Readings & Workshop--Albany NY & Around CT, Next Week MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Readings & Workshop in Albany, NY & Around CT, Next Week Charlie Rossiter & Dan Wilcox readings and a workshop March, 4 – 8 (next Tues through Saturday) in Albany, NY and around CT Tuesday, March 4, Albany NY Valentines (w/open mic) 17 New Scotland Ave 8 pm; $3 contact: 518-482-0262 Wednesday, March 5,, Bethel CT Wednesday Night Poetry Series Molten Java (w/open mic) 102 Greenwood Ave 8 pm ; Donation Contact: 860-243-3424 Thursday, March 6, Bloomfield, CT Prosser Library 1 Tunxis Ave 7 pm; free Contact: 860-243-3424 RECOMMENDED TO REGISTER FOR BY THURS, MARCH 6 FOR SATURDAY WORKSHOP CALL 860-243-3424 Saturday, March 8, Middletown, CT +++WORKSHOP+++ “Truth: The Soul of Poetry” Buttonwood Tree 605 Main St. 3:30-5:15pm $20 Advance registration advised 860-243-3424 Saturday, March 8, Middletown, CT Spoken Word Series Buttonwood Tree 605 Main St. Middletown, CT 6:30 pm; $5 860-225-2443 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:12:16 -0300 Reply-To: gustavo.dourado@gmail.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gustavo Dourado Subject: Cordel to William Shakespeare... Gustavo Dourado Comments: To: ron@netpoets.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Cordel to William Shakespeare By Gustavo Dourado Theatre, dramaturgy: Literature Universal=85 Puzzles for life: Shakespeare is unique From Stratford to the World: Transmutation textual=85 Po=E9tico and playwright: In Stratford was born=85 Son of John Shakespeare: Mary Arden conceived the=85 Sir William Shakespeare: Great art bloomed=85 Born in prosperous family: Good social position=85 It was poor, ruined them: Flui conscience vital=85 It guardador of horses: He fortune at the end=85 At the King's New School: Shakespeare was educated=85 No studies concluded: But had good result=85 At the University of life: It was a doctor graduated=85 Year 1582: With Anne Hathaway is married=85 Born the daughter Susanna: That Shakespeare enchanted=85 Gemini Judith and Hamnet: Belo spouses procriou=85 Abandoned Stratford: Because controversial .. He was living in London: Drama, drama and verse=85 It was actor and teatr=F3logo: He art, verse and reverse=85 James Burbage / Globe Theater: Dramaturg and actor=85 Reescritura of texts: Narrative, art-love=85 Drama, poetry, sonetos: Transcendent criautor=85 Writer dramatically higher: During Jacobin=85 Demonstrated his talent: Since the times of boy=85 His art is a luzeiro: From brightness Diamantino=85 For many appreciated: Noble and general public Kings, queens, scholars: It magister theatrical=85 As he was not: It is primordial creator=85 Author of works great: His name is referential=85 In drama, verse and prose: The text is monumental=85 Trag=E9dias, parts, comedy: Background l=EDrico - social=85 He wrote 37 pieces: In high inventiveness=85 Created in various genres: Fruiu genius=85 It is one of the masters of the art: In legou diversity=85 Tragedy Titus Andronicus: The Two Gentlemen of Verona=85 The Taming of the Shrew: His art is entrona=85 The Comedy of Errors: The poverty in detona=85 Henry VI and Ricardo III: Venus and Adonis, poetry=85 The Rape of Lucrece: 'Dark Lady' fantasy=85 Love's Labour's Lost: The Raleigh, with irony=85 S=E1tira the Walter Raleigh: Famous explorer=85 The Earl of Southampton: I heard be your protector=85 Lord Chamberlain's Men: Expertise as actor=85 Globe Theatre, a landmark: Dream of A Night of Summer=85 The Merchant of Venice: The glow of creation .. Romeo and Juliet=85 King John: Whenever I see with emotion=85 Parts of Falstaff: The Merry Wives of Windsor Henry IV=85 Henry V: Fluency as author=85 Creating the flower of the skin: Photographer our pain=85 He wrote the pieces lyrics For Isabel, the application? His fame extrapolated Quite apart from the United Kingdom=85 Sir William Shakespeare: It creator destemido=85 In 1599, Julius Caesar wrote Much Ado About Nothing: Soon after devised=85 As You Like It: It is here in my back=85 Period of the great tragedies: Hamlet, Macbeth, Othello, King Lear, Timon of Athens: I read and I refestelo=85 Antony and Cleopatra: Coriolanus, simple=85 All's Well That Ends Well: Troilus and Cressida=85 Measure for Measure: Comedy in its dealing=85 Cymbeline, The Winter's Tale: The Tempest in his life=85 Pericles, The Storm, Art of "reconciliation"=85 Almost to the end of their career: Not lost the emotion=85. Do isabelino heyday: At times of transition=85 Colaborou with John Fletcher: Doubts hike in=85 Escreveu Henrique VIII: Wrote Henry VIII: Most conflicts in the day=85 Two Noble Kinsmen: More a work created=85 Li Hamlet and Macbeth: Otelo, A Storm=85 Reli Romeo and Juliet: I felt dramatic=85 King Lear and other kings: Reading with Majesty=85 Amores and disagreements: Questions and suffering=85 Bobagem and wisdom: The feeling of desv=E3os=85 Universos desvelados: The pain of thought=85 Dramas and betrayals: Viv=EAncia, intensity=85 Crisis of moral values: Action speaks, cruelty=85 Lives of tragicom=E9dias: Mirrors of falsehood=85 Family, relationships: Ethics, political, moral=85 Solil=F3quios and metaphors: Transgress=F5es of hominal=85 Wishes, ambitions, plain crazy: Shakespeare phenomenal=85 The Human Nature: Deep knowledge=85 Narrative inspiring: We example of writer=85 For centuries afora: Metamorphosis of Love=85 Paradigm literary: It the human condition=85 =C1pice and base of the pyramid Work shakesperiana=85 Disseca our conflicts: The mysteries of persona=85 Shakespeare stands out: Expresses humanity=85 His art is a primary: Awake the creativity=85 Reflects the human soul: Pulsa with vitality=85 Poet and cordelista. Letras (UnB). Lyrics (UnB). Post-graduate degree in arts, literature, theatre, management and artistic languages. Author of nine books. Prized in Austria. Selected by Unesco. Theme of the master's and doctoral theses. www.gustavodourado.com.br http://cordel.zip.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:57:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank everyone who responded to my query re langpo. I have collected and noted the various sources to which you have referred me and look forward = to become educated in this important, judging from the numerous discussions that have taken place, area of poetic endeavour. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of CA Conrad Sent: February 27, 2008 7:46 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=F1 o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism Nick LoLordo wrote: >D'Erasmo may be ignorant of langpo, but the = simplest received >understanding of it is adequate to explain her reference, I think-- >(and how wonderful that someone on _this list_ recently needs to ask, >sincerely, what the term means!)-- Nick, yes, it's GREAT someone asked when not knowing, that's my point: ASK. D'Erasmo doesn't ask, she assumes to know. But still, she DOES = KNOW that LANGUAGE poets exist! And it's one thing for someone on this list = to ask, and yet entirely ANOTHER thing for someone writing for one of the = most read, most respected newspapers on the planet to NOT ask when she = obviously should ask. Her point is that Bolano's point is that his invented characters are ignored, unknown, chomping away at their typewriters, or computers, or whatever they use to write their hate-filled literature. Okay, first of all, LANGUAGE poets are clearly NOT unknown, maybe not = known as they should be, but they are recognized, to the point D'Erasmo = casually mentions them in her stupid book review. Second, these Bolano characters are writing Nazi literature. If = D'Erasmo doesn't know enough about who and what is LANGUAGE poetry, how on earth = are we to trust that she's lifting Bolano's ideas into this higher abstract = of seeing LANGUAGE poetry as fitting some compulsory equation for all avant garde groups to slide into with HELLISH authority? Are we to not inform ourselves at some point that LANGUAGE poetry is inhabited by real live people who happen be real and live presently and = are as capable of seeing their way to their lives and this world through = poetry as any other school or philosophy? And it really is not asking too much that the New York Times get better fucking editors who INSIST their writers know what the fuck they're = actually writing about. Frankly! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: = 26/02/2008 7:50 PM =20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: = 26/02/2008 7:50 PM =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:39:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Jo Malo Subject: Re: langpo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This too... http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/perloff/langpo.html Mary Jo > I've been coming across the terms 'langpo' and 'language poetry' many times> in this listserv. I must show my ignorance as I'm relatively unfamiliar with> these terms. In order to enhance my education, what books should I be> reading? What poets? Please kindly advise.> John Cunningham> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:26:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Talking Points - SHOCKLEY and FOSTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evie Shockley and Tonya Foster discuss Juliana Spahr's and Stephenie Young'= s Chicago Review essay, "Numbers Trouble," at Delirious Hem=0A[http://delir= ioushem.blogspot.com/2008/02/dim-sum-tonya-foster-evie-shockley.html ] --- = Excerpts:=0A=0A=85I am arguing that avant-garde poetics need not be defined= in=0Aopposition to either a discernable engagement with politics in the wo= rk=0Aor an interest in audience(s). Where did this avant-garde=0Apoetry/pol= itical poetry divide come from anyway? What motivated the=0Asurrealists? Wh= at motivated Dada? The high modernists? The Beats? The=0ALanguage poets? Or= should I be asking what distinguishes these=0Apolitically motivated aesthe= tic movements from the New Negro=0ARenaissance, the Black Arts Movement, th= e Nuyorican arts movement? And=0Ahow does the most obvious answer to this l= ast question relate to the=0Anotion of =93a more radical feminism=94 and th= e intervention it could make=0Ain the world (of poetry)?=0A=0A =0A=0A=85.I = love Retallack=92s concept of =93pragmatically hybrid poetry=0Acommunities= =94 both because it seems grounded in immediate action and=0Abecause it sug= gests the importance of seeking and forming alliances=0Athat don=92t rely u= pon a mandated (false) unity around every possible=0Aissue of politics and = aesthetics that might be raised.=0A=0A =0A=0A=85Can we accept and act on th= e idea that =93transform[ing] the=0Acircumstances or conditions of others= =94 may deeply involve transforming=0Awho we are and how we occupy the worl= d (of poetry)?=0A=0A---From =93Dim Sum: Tonya Foster & Evie Shockley =97 Br= aiding:=0AConVERSations: To, Against, For=94=0A=0A=0A[ http://delirioushem.= blogspot.com/2008/02/dim-sum-tonya-foster-evie-shockley.html ] =0A=0A =0A__= _____ =0A =0ABlog=0A =0Ahttp://www.amyking.org/blog=0A =0AFaculty Page=0A = =0Ahttp://faculty2.ncc.edu/kinga=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ___________________= _________________________________________________________________=0ALooking= for last minute shopping deals? =0AFind them fast with Yahoo! Search. ht= tp://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=3Dshopping ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:09:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amanda Earl Subject: Roland Barthes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed i often see references to / excerpts from the work of Roland Barthes, particularly in discussions on language poetry. i was wondering if anyone had any recommendations as to what would be a good overview of his writing or where to start. Amanda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:13:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Nick LoLordo wrote: > > I don't think the implicit argument works along the lines > "langpo=nazism"-- > > rather, I think, it's along the lines of "fascism=communism (langpo) > =extremism= > poor, deluded, political writers who fail to share in the comfortable > bourgeois certainties of the NY Times" yes nick, or i think her assumption even more explicitly is langpo = aesthetic absolutism. > Mary Jo Malo asked: > > Well, we could cut to the chase and discuss whether or not language > poetry has or could become hegemonic. Is it inclusive enough to avoid > becoming so? i'd have to ask another question in response to your first, mary jo: what evidence would one marshall in support of a claim that langpo "has become hegemonic" -- are not language poets still well in the minority throughout university creative writing programs, the literary press, the popular press, the extensive system of prizes grants and awards, etc.? your second question contains an interesting assumption: inclusivity necessarily avoids hegemony. that is, if you have a big enough tent, you won't end up dominating? is this really the case? or the contrary, that if you exclude you will inevitably dominate? curious, tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:29:49 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << Thank everyone who responded to my query re langpo. I have collected and noted the various sources to which you have referred me and look forward to become educated in this important, judging from the numerous discussions that have taken place, area of poetic endeavour. John Cunningham >> ... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American Football and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. Like you, I once wondered what it all was all about, but being, I suspect, older than you, I brought a bit of previous to this, having grown up in the middle of the Glasgow Language Wars in the sixties. Now there was a time ... I now know what I'm supposed to think, but I'm not sure I really want to know. If I had to coin an image to describe what it all seems like from the outside, langpo is a bit like Imagism without Ezra Pound. Mind you, as the wheel of time turns in its courses, I'm currently engaged in tracking the use of cant in English writing between 1500 and tomorrow, and as such, I'm probably less than wholly sympathetic to poetic movements that get gobbled up by the Academy before they're hardly even out of the egg. Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:13:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: Talking Points - SHOCKLEY and FOSTER In-Reply-To: <455825.41184.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Yay! I really love this quote. My thoughts exactly. It would be one thing if poetry were made of words alone, but it is not--no more than words themselves are. --Paolo Friere via James Scully (Linebreak 133). On 2/28/08, amy king wrote: > Evie Shockley and Tonya Foster discuss Juliana Spahr's and Stephenie Youn= g's Chicago Review essay, "Numbers Trouble," at Delirious Hem > [http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/02/dim-sum-tonya-foster-evie-shoc= kley.html ] --- Excerpts: > > =85I am arguing that avant-garde poetics need not be defined in > opposition to either a discernable engagement with politics in the work > or an interest in audience(s). Where did this avant-garde > poetry/political poetry divide come from anyway? What motivated the > surrealists? What motivated Dada? The high modernists? The Beats? The > Language poets? Or should I be asking what distinguishes these > politically motivated aesthetic movements from the New Negro > Renaissance, the Black Arts Movement, the Nuyorican arts movement? And > how does the most obvious answer to this last question relate to the > notion of "a more radical feminism" and the intervention it could make > in the world (of poetry)? > > > > =85.I love Retallack's concept of "pragmatically hybrid poetry > communities" both because it seems grounded in immediate action and > because it suggests the importance of seeking and forming alliances > that don't rely upon a mandated (false) unity around every possible > issue of politics and aesthetics that might be raised. > > > > =85Can we accept and act on the idea that "transform[ing] the > circumstances or conditions of others" may deeply involve transforming > who we are and how we occupy the world (of poetry)? > > ---From "Dim Sum: Tonya Foster & Evie Shockley =97 Braiding: > ConVERSations: To, Against, For" > > > [ http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/02/dim-sum-tonya-foster-evie-sho= ckley.html ] > > > _______ > > Blog > > http://www.amyking.org/blog > > Faculty Page > > http://faculty2.ncc.edu/kinga > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________= _________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsea= rch/category.php?category=3Dshopping > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:36:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Roland Barthes In-Reply-To: <200802281709.m1SH9gJY028590@mail.storm.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are different periods of his work and Barthes' readers have different preferences accordingly. I would call your attention above all to his later work, that is, from the '70s, esp. A Lover's Discourse, Camera Lucida, and The Pleasure of the Text. In the French editions of his Oeuvres completes, these are in the 4th and 5th of the five volumes. Amanda Earl wrote: i often see references to / excerpts from the work of Roland Barthes, particularly in discussions on language poetry. i was wondering if anyone had any recommendations as to what would be a good overview of his writing or where to start. Amanda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:41:27 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robert o B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poe try/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: <004601c87a2f$85df61c0$4101a8c0@nowhereddc257a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Despite the assertion here that Language poetry is of no interest outside the US, I can certainly attest than when poets in the general orbit of Language poetry came to read in the reading series I ran here in London, they generally got the biggest turnout. For whatever that's worth. Robin Hamilton wrote: << Thank everyone who responded to my query re langpo. I have collected and noted the various sources to which you have referred me and look forward to become educated in this important, judging from the numerous discussions that have taken place, area of poetic endeavour. John Cunningham >> .... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American Football and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. Like you, I once wondered what it all was all about, but being, I suspect, older than you, I brought a bit of previous to this, having grown up in the middle of the Glasgow Language Wars in the sixties. Now there was a time ... I now know what I'm supposed to think, but I'm not sure I really want to know. If I had to coin an image to describe what it all seems like from the outside, langpo is a bit like Imagism without Ezra Pound. Mind you, as the wheel of time turns in its courses, I'm currently engaged in tracking the use of cant in English writing between 1500 and tomorrow, and as such, I'm probably less than wholly sympathetic to poetic movements that get gobbled up by the Academy before they're hardly even out of the egg. Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:38:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc i sm In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed hi CA-- "someone" meant not Stacy D'Eraser but the guy who simply asked the list politely what he should read, maybe two days ago...I was just commenting on the irony of that request being on this list..... the main part of my message expresses what I still think is true: I don't think the implicit argument works along the lines "langpo=nazism"-- rather, I think, it's along the lines of "fascism=communism (langpo) =extremism= poor, deluded, political writers who fail to share in the comfortable bourgeois certainties of the NY Times" this is not an excuse, but an analysis of why such an equation can appear in the times-- I don't disagree with anything you say about language poetry..... On Feb 27, 2008, at 5:45 PM, CA Conrad wrote: > Nick LoLordo wrote: >D'Erasmo may be ignorant of langpo, but the > simplest > received >> understanding of it is adequate to explain her reference, I think-- >> (and how wonderful that someone on _this list_ recently needs to ask, >> sincerely, what the term means!)-- > > Nick, yes, it's GREAT someone asked when not knowing, that's my point: > ASK. D'Erasmo doesn't ask, she assumes to know. But still, she > DOES KNOW > that LANGUAGE poets exist! And it's one thing for someone on this > list to > ask, and yet entirely ANOTHER thing for someone writing for one of > the most > read, most respected newspapers on the planet to NOT ask when she > obviously > should ask. > > Her point is that Bolano's point is that his invented characters are > ignored, unknown, chomping away at their typewriters, or computers, or > whatever they use to write their hate-filled literature. > > Okay, first of all, LANGUAGE poets are clearly NOT unknown, maybe > not known > as they should be, but they are recognized, to the point D'Erasmo > casually > mentions them in her stupid book review. > > Second, these Bolano characters are writing Nazi literature. If > D'Erasmo > doesn't know enough about who and what is LANGUAGE poetry, how on > earth are > we to trust that she's lifting Bolano's ideas into this higher > abstract of > seeing LANGUAGE poetry as fitting some compulsory equation for all > avant > garde groups to slide into with HELLISH authority? > > Are we to not inform ourselves at some point that LANGUAGE poetry is > inhabited by real live people who happen be real and live presently > and are > as capable of seeing their way to their lives and this world > through poetry > as any other school or philosophy? > > And it really is not asking too much that the New York Times get > better > fucking editors who INSIST their writers know what the fuck they're > actually > writing about. Frankly! > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com V Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas 4505 Maryland Parkway Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 Phone: 702-895-3623 Fax: 702-895-4801 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:02:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #19: That's Not The Way I Remember It 7pm Sunday, March 2nd Featuring: Kate Greenstreet Jen Tynes Two women. Two microphones. Two versions of the story. at the SpareRoom 4100 W. Grand Ave -- Chicago, IL close to Grand & Pulaski in the American Stencil Company building 2nd floor, suite 210-212 http://www.spareroomchicago.org BYOB suggested donation $3 doors lock at 7:30pm wheelchair accessible with assistance KATE GREENSTREET is the author of case sensitive (Ahsahta Press, 2006) and three chapbooks, Learning the Language (Etherdome Press, 2005), Rushes (above/ground press, 2007), and This is why I hurt you (Lame House Press, forthcoming). Her second book, The Last 4 Things, will be out from Ahsahta in 2009. For more information, visit http://www.kategreenstreet.com. JEN TYNES lives in Denver, Colorado, and edits horse less press. She is the author or co-author of the following books and chapbooks: Heron/Girlfriend (Coconut Books, forthcoming 2008), See Also Electric Light (Dancing Girl Press, 2007), The Ohio System (w/ Erika Howsare, Octopus Books, 2006), The End Of Rude Handles (Red Morning Press, 2005), and Found in Nature(horse less press, 2004). Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. STARTING April 19 events will be held at a new surprise location TBA! more info soon COMING UP: *Experiment #20: April 19 - Barrett Gordon, Matthew Klane, David Pavelich, Laura Sims, Kevin Thurston *Experiment #21: May 15 - Miranda Mellis & Sarah Rosenthal SUMMER/FALL 2008: Judith Goldman & Lily Robert-Foley Ira S. Murfin & Marisa Plumb Authors from the Encyclopedia Project, vol. 2 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:19:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nic Sebastian Subject: ten questions on publication - Nate Pritts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A great set of answers to ten questions on publication are stacking up. Up = this week is Nate Pritts: =20 http://verylikeawhale.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/ten-questions-2-nate-pritts/= Nic Sebastianhttp://verylikeawhale.wordpress.com= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:09:46 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - N YTBR--Nazi Poetry/ In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 The metonymic and syntactical connection implied in this article between "l= anguage poetry" and "fascism" is absurdly unfounded. The poets evoked by Bo= lano's story sound more like the New Formalists than any other contemporary= movement, especially in their nostalgia for classical form. Language Poetr= y has always been extremely clear about its stated anti-fascist and anti-he= gemonic intentions. The article is basically confusing the popular front wi= th fascism under the observation that both are groups, and both are concern= ed with literary form. But nearly all writers are concerned with both issue= s, also. That's not something particular to language poetry. We're all invo= lved in literary micropoliticking, and some of us have bigger or smaller gr= oups than others. The involvement of a number of significant Jewish writers in Language poetr= y furthermore causes this juxtaposition to border on anti-semitism. For a reviewer to furthermore go out of her way to make such an offhanded a= ccusatory remark through an indirect gesture raises the question for me of = why she is spending her time reviewing books and accusing current literary = movements of fascism while the President builds our standing army and conce= ivably innocent citizens are being tortured at Guantanamo. Tim Peterson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:37:41 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robert o B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poe try/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << Despite the assertion here that Language poetry is of no interest outside the US, I can certainly attest than when poets in the general orbit of Language poetry came to read in the reading series I ran here in London, they generally got the biggest turnout. For whatever that's worth. >> Well, it depends on whom or what you play them against. [Or equally, what you mean by langpo?] Tom Leonard, Kurt Schwitters, Barry Griffiths? I'm not saying no one here has heard of Charles Bernstein, just that the loud drum of langpo in USAmerica is more like a tiny tinkle here. british-poets is probably the major list here for sound/semantic/avant poety, and I don't hear langpo being much discussed there, if at all. [And on a more personal level, I have yet to be given one statement form a langpoet that made me want to read more, or a quotation from a langpoet poem that made me want to read further. Sorry, mate.] Robin Hamilton > Robin Hamilton wrote: << > Thank everyone who responded to my query re langpo. I have collected and > noted the various sources to which you have referred me and look forward > to > become educated in this important, judging from the numerous discussions > that have taken place, area of poetic endeavour. > John Cunningham >>> > > .... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American > Football > and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. > > "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. > > Like you, I once wondered what it all was all about, but being, I suspect, > older than you, I brought a bit of previous to this, having grown up in > the > middle of the Glasgow Language Wars in the sixties. > > Now there was a time ... > > I now know what I'm supposed to think, but I'm not sure I really want to > know. > > If I had to coin an image to describe what it all seems like from the > outside, langpo is a bit like Imagism without Ezra Pound. > > Mind you, as the wheel of time turns in its courses, I'm currently engaged > in tracking the use of cant in English writing between 1500 and tomorrow, > and as such, I'm probably less than wholly sympathetic to poetic movements > that get gobbled up by the Academy before they're hardly even out of the > egg. > > Robin Hamilton > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1302 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 > 4:34 PM > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: **Advertise in Boog City 49** Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please forward ----------------------- Advertise in Boog City 49 *Deadline --Thurs. March 6-Ad or ad copy to editor --Sat. March 15-Issue to be distributed Email to reserve ad space ASAP We have 2,250 copies distributed and available free throughout Manhattan's East Village, and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, Brooklyn. ----- Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $80 to $40. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Red Rover Series / Experiment #19 In-Reply-To: <136366.66792.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline just wanting to support this series i read there last sunday and the crowd is delightful, warm, energized, hungry for new work the space is terrific too . . . if considered a little off the beaten track . . . it's great for poetics On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Jennifer Karmin wrote: > Red Rover Series > {readings that play with reading} > > Experiment #19: > That's Not The Way I Remember It > > 7pm Sunday, March 2nd > Featuring: > Kate Greenstreet > Jen Tynes > > Two women. > Two microphones. > Two versions of the story. > > at the SpareRoom > 4100 W. Grand Ave -- Chicago, IL > close to Grand & Pulaski > in the American Stencil Company building > 2nd floor, suite 210-212 > http://www.spareroomchicago.org > > BYOB > suggested donation $3 > doors lock at 7:30pm > wheelchair accessible with assistance > > KATE GREENSTREET is the author of case sensitive > (Ahsahta Press, 2006) and three chapbooks, Learning > the Language (Etherdome Press, 2005), Rushes > (above/ground press, 2007), and This is why I hurt you > (Lame House Press, forthcoming). Her second book, The > Last 4 Things, will be out from Ahsahta in 2009. For > more information, visit > http://www.kategreenstreet.com. > > JEN TYNES lives in Denver, Colorado, and edits horse > less press. She is the author or co-author of the > following books and chapbooks: Heron/Girlfriend > (Coconut Books, forthcoming 2008), See Also Electric > Light (Dancing Girl Press, 2007), The Ohio System (w/ > Erika Howsare, Octopus Books, 2006), The End Of Rude > Handles (Red Morning Press, 2005), and Found in > Nature(horse less press, 2004). > > Red Rover Series is curated by Amina Cain and Jennifer > Karmin. Founded in 2005, each Red Rover event is > designed as a reading experiment with participation by > local, national, and international writers, artists, > and performers. > > Email ideas for reading experiments > to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com. > The schedule for upcoming events is listed at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries. > > STARTING April 19 events will be held > at a new surprise location TBA! > more info soon > > COMING UP: > *Experiment #20: > April 19 - Barrett Gordon, Matthew Klane, David > Pavelich, Laura Sims, Kevin Thurston > > *Experiment #21: > May 15 - Miranda Mellis & Sarah Rosenthal > > SUMMER/FALL 2008: > Judith Goldman & Lily Robert-Foley > Ira S. Murfin & Marisa Plumb > Authors from the Encyclopedia Project, vol. 2 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:47:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: <004601c87a2f$85df61c0$4101a8c0@nowhereddc257a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin: It was designed to be gobbled up by the academy. And it's not that big in America, either. Parochial begins in a (few) journals and MFA programs. Baseball, on the other hand, is something you Brits definitely out to think about importing. It would go so well with pasties and pies. Mark At 12:29 PM 2/28/2008, you wrote: ><< >Thank everyone who responded to my query re langpo. I have collected and >noted the various sources to which you have referred me and look forward to >become educated in this important, judging from the numerous discussions >that have taken place, area of poetic endeavour. >John Cunningham > >... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American >Football and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. > >"Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. > >Like you, I once wondered what it all was all about, but being, I >suspect, older than you, I brought a bit of previous to this, having >grown up in the middle of the Glasgow Language Wars in the sixties. > >Now there was a time ... > >I now know what I'm supposed to think, but I'm not sure I really want to know. > >If I had to coin an image to describe what it all seems like from >the outside, langpo is a bit like Imagism without Ezra Pound. > >Mind you, as the wheel of time turns in its courses, I'm currently >engaged in tracking the use of cant in English writing between 1500 >and tomorrow, and as such, I'm probably less than wholly sympathetic >to poetic movements that get gobbled up by the Academy before >they're hardly even out of the egg. > >Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:03:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= - - N YTBR--Nazi Poetry/ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tim: I think the article is wrongheaded, but I think you're a bit off that "we're all involved in literary micropoliticking, " unless you mean the sort of loose associations of affinity and enmity there have always been. Large numbers of poets of my and the preceding generation have had little to do with all but the most transient of groupings, even among those who have posthumously, as it were, been inducted into this or that group (sounds a bit like Mormon posthumous conversion). Frankly, it's always ticked a lot of us off, even those who have gained by it. I say this despite a genuine fondness for some language poets and their poems. Though I'm not always sure what defines so disparate a group beyond the critical lexicon. Try this: One could see French poetry of the interwar period as dominated by surrealism. Then one would have to remember Cocteau, Jacob, Jammes, three who immediately come to mind as not part of the club, not to mention those like Apollinaire who didn't live long enough to to find out if they'd get the sign-up sheet (I doubt he would have joined any club that didn't let Jacob in). Mark >The article is basically confusing the popular front with fascism >under the observation that both are groups, and both are concerned >with literary form. But nearly all writers are concerned with both >issues, also. That's not something particular to language poetry. >We're all involved in literary micropoliticking, and some of us have >bigger or smaller groups than others. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:03:33 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robert o B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poe try/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: <00bd01c87a49$c3e70e40$4101a8c0@nowhereddc257a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Admittedly, some people are just less curious than others. But you can't generalize your own lack of interest--it's your own possession. Robin Hamilton wrote: << Despite the assertion here that Language poetry is of no interest outside the US, I can certainly attest than when poets in the general orbit of Language poetry came to read in the reading series I ran here in London, they generally got the biggest turnout. For whatever that's worth. >> Well, it depends on whom or what you play them against. [Or equally, what you mean by langpo?] Tom Leonard, Kurt Schwitters, Barry Griffiths? I'm not saying no one here has heard of Charles Bernstein, just that the loud drum of langpo in USAmerica is more like a tiny tinkle here. british-poets is probably the major list here for sound/semantic/avant poety, and I don't hear langpo being much discussed there, if at all. [And on a more personal level, I have yet to be given one statement form a langpoet that made me want to read more, or a quotation from a langpoet poem that made me want to read further. Sorry, mate.] Robin Hamilton > Robin Hamilton wrote: << > Thank everyone who responded to my query re langpo. I have collected and > noted the various sources to which you have referred me and look forward > to > become educated in this important, judging from the numerous discussions > that have taken place, area of poetic endeavour. > John Cunningham >>> > > .... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American > Football > and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. > > "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. > > Like you, I once wondered what it all was all about, but being, I suspect, > older than you, I brought a bit of previous to this, having grown up in > the > middle of the Glasgow Language Wars in the sixties. > > Now there was a time ... > > I now know what I'm supposed to think, but I'm not sure I really want to > know. > > If I had to coin an image to describe what it all seems like from the > outside, langpo is a bit like Imagism without Ezra Pound. > > Mind you, as the wheel of time turns in its courses, I'm currently engaged > in tracking the use of cant in English writing between 1500 and tomorrow, > and as such, I'm probably less than wholly sympathetic to poetic movements > that get gobbled up by the Academy before they're hardly even out of the > egg. > > Robin Hamilton > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1302 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 > 4:34 PM > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:34:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robe rto B o la[iso-8859-1] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080228174521.06a438d8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I've often wondered myself why the culture that gave the world bangers and mash hasn't taken to baseball. On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Mark Weiss wrote: > Robin: It was designed to be gobbled up by the academy. > > And it's not that big in America, either. Parochial begins in a (few) journals > and MFA programs. > > Baseball, on the other hand, is something you Brits definitely out to think > about importing. It would go so well with pasties and pies. > > Mark > > > At 12:29 PM 2/28/2008, you wrote: >> << >> Thank everyone who responded to my query re langpo. I have collected and >> noted the various sources to which you have referred me and look forward to >> become educated in this important, judging from the numerous discussions >> that have taken place, area of poetic endeavour. >> John Cunningham >> >> ... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American Football >> and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. >> >> "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. >> >> Like you, I once wondered what it all was all about, but being, I suspect, >> older than you, I brought a bit of previous to this, having grown up in the >> middle of the Glasgow Language Wars in the sixties. >> >> Now there was a time ... >> >> I now know what I'm supposed to think, but I'm not sure I really want to >> know. >> >> If I had to coin an image to describe what it all seems like from the >> outside, langpo is a bit like Imagism without Ezra Pound. >> >> Mind you, as the wheel of time turns in its courses, I'm currently engaged >> in tracking the use of cant in English writing between 1500 and tomorrow, >> and as such, I'm probably less than wholly sympathetic to poetic movements >> that get gobbled up by the Academy before they're hardly even out of the >> egg. >> >> Robin Hamilton > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:42:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project March In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, Here are the upcoming events at The Poetry Project. Scroll all the way down for information on a special reading at another NYC poetry venue. Your Pal, The Poetry Project Saturday, March 1, 1 PM Michael Goldberg - A Memorial Tribute Friends and colleagues of painter Michael Goldberg (1924-2007) will gather in the Sanctuary to commemorate his life and art. Speakers include Klauss Kertess, John Zorn, Jeremy Gilbert Rolf, Per Jensen, Ellen Phelan, Janet Coleman, David Shapiro, Linda Benglis, Lucio Pozzi, Larry Osgood, Phong Bui and more t.b.a. Co-sponsored with Knoedler & Company. Monday, March 3, 8 PM Open Reading Sign-in 7:45pm. Wednesday March 5, 8 PM Laynie Browne & Stephen Ratcliffe Laynie Browne is the author of seven collections of poetry and one novel. Her most recent publications include The Scented Fox (recipient of the 2007 National Poetry Series Award, selected by Alice Notley), Daily Sonnets and Drawing of a Swan Before Memory (Winner of the Contemporary Poetry Series. Of Daily Sonnets Ron Silliman writes: "It's a stunner and a delight. A pure dose of heady oxygen" and "...an icon for the generation of poets who are about to show up." With others she helped to found the Ear Inn reading series in New York and is a member of the Subtext Collective in Seattle. Sh= e has taught creative writing at The University of Washington, Bothell, at Mills College in Oakland and at the Poetry Center at the University of Arizona. She currently lives in Tucson. Stephen Ratcliffe=B9s most recent boo= k is Real, a 474-page book of poems written in 474 consecutive days. Previous books include Portraits & Repetition and SOUND/(system). Listening to Reading, a collection of essays on contemporary =8Cexperimental=B9 poetry, was published by SUNY Press in 2000. He lives in Bolinas, where he surfs every day and publishes Avenue B books, and teaches at Mills College in Oakland. Friday, March 7, 10 PM Lil' Norton Lil' Norton is a publishing "collective" (actually not a collective) so far including the magazines Model Homes, President's Choice, and The Physical Poets. This reading will showcase some of the authors featured in the mags, including Anne Tardos, Laura Elrick, Patrick Lovelace and Kevin Thurston. Co-curated by President's Choice editor Steven Zultanski. More details forthcoming! National Small Press Month Reading Marathon Thursday, March 6, 2008 Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, New York, NY 10012 212.614.0505 7 pm to Midnight. $6. Eileen Myles (Wave Books), Noelle Kocot (Wave Books), Lynne Tillman (Soft Skull), Jen Benka (Soft Skull), Brenda Coultas (Coffee House Press), Ted Mathys (Coffee House Press), Alex Rose (Akashic Books), Camelia Entekhabifard (Seven Stories Press), Veronica Liu (Seven Stories Press), Martine Bellen (Belladonna Books), Lila Zemborain (Belladonna Books), Dan Machlin (Ugly Duckling Presse), Rachel Sherman (Open City Books), Leni Zuma= s (Open City Books), Sharon Mesmer (Hanging Loose Press), Marie Carter (Hanging Loose Press), Melissa Buzzeo (Leon Works), Tisa Bryant (Leon Works), Bob Holman (Bowery Books), Paul Mills (Bowery Books), Radhiyah Ayobami (Bowery Books), Rachel Levitsky (Futurepoem Books), Erica Kaufman (Big Game Books), Corrine Fitzpatrick (Sona Books), Dedra Johnson (Ig Publishing), Grant Bailie (Ig Publishing), Camilla Trinchieri (Soho Press), Anne Landsman (Soho Press), Jason Schneiderman (Four Way Books), David Lawrence (Four Way Books). =20 For more information visit www.smallpressmonth.org or call 212.764.7021. =20 Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:57:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Chirot Subject: to return misreadings to readings (closer & close-- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Amy , Barry & Friends- It's my birthday today so I thought to essay a reply to some of the letters and especially to my friend Barry, who wrote that I had equated fascism with language poetry, and that most on the list including probably myself included, have language poetry as the foundation for their work, so how can one "attack." one's foundation? Misreading I think is what produces so many misundertandings, and is best to address them I think before they become a locked in stone profile of oneself and/ or others. (A friend of mine from Latin America and myself have often thought and at times begun to collect misreadings as a new form of enquiry into the nature of the production of "misknowledge.," a new branch of "mis-criticism." with which to produce ultimately "misled texts and misleading texts."!) I did not equate language poetry with fascism, and actually I do not have language poetry as a foundation for my efforts as Barry writes. To hopefully make matters a bit clearer, I thought to explain a little of what my foundation so to speak is. Unlike many people on this list, I did not know about language poetry at all until later in life, beyond the "formative years" during which perhaps others discovered it. For a thirteen year period of my teens and twenties, I was living a lot in Europe, and when I came back to America at one point I married, as generations and generations in my family have since 1650 in Quebec, an Indian, a Mohawk. For the next many years a lot of my life was in the world of her family, the Mohawk world, the Indian Programs, and AIM. The ideas and influences I had then and still do, are from Europe (primarily France), Vermont, Boston and Milwaukee and the Indian world and street world and a lot of reading, movies, music, art and so are rather different from most people here. Most of the last 7 years I've lived at the poverty level in the Central City after being put on disability for degenerating spine from my back being broken three times. Combined with other factors, a good part of my life has not been in the same country that probably most here know as "America." I'd say where I live in a sense is always a liminal place, crossing back and forth among various regions physically and mentally, via the bus daily and via the mind continually. I know that often I have to remember to try to translate into terms not my own things which are difficult enough to express to begin with . Not having the shared foundation as Barry says in language poetry and some other areas that others do, I realize that many things which mean something here mean the opposite to myself, and the world I've lived in. To try to grasp often what is being written one has to go into a kind of reverse, almost a reverse engineering at times, to be able to understand what is being presented from the other point of view. I try to understand from the other person's point of view and so read as carefully as possible. It is not at al that the writing or ideas are "difficult," but that the frame within which they are formulated is one I have to try to squeeze into and get a sense of the arrangement of the room. It participates in a world and world view which is much narrower than the one one is in, so it takes some work to essay the transition into what may be called the normative academic /language world. Once within that frame, one essays to translate back and forth in order to achieve some form of balance, and from that balance to essay to express things which hopefully will not be misread. It's very difficult at times, because terms that mean one thing to me to others mean something else, and being the "odd man out," I have to learn others' codes because one can't expect others to understand languages which they are unaware of the existence of. Misreading is a frequent occurrence with email, and one essays to not be misread, as when it occurs, it can become weapon for violence against whomever is judged to be the culprit. Sadly, miscommunications have been since time began the cause of a lot ot unnecessary conflict. I'm very saddened by some comments as they were based on misreadings of my letter, as well as based on confusing what I write with what the reviewer writes. I think the only way to find out what the reviewer meant is simply to write her a thoughtful letter. One can speculate until the cows home, and work oneself into a lather, and be all bothered over nothing, if one finds out that perhaps what the writer meant is not what was angering one. I think the best thing to do is address a letter to the reviewer, and in that way clear up the problems one has with what she has written. I should note also that one can't really speculate responsibly on who and what the writers in the book are by extrapolating from what is in the review. Read the book ! I say and find out for yourself. The writers come from all classes and backgrounds and degrees of education. and from various countries in North and South America. What Bolano is presenting is a heterogeneous group of people most of whom have no idea of each other. The only one who is truly dangerous is Lieutenant Ramirez Hoffman of the last chapter, who becomes Alberto Ruiz-Tagle aka Carlos Weider and is the "star" of the brilliant and harrowing novella Distant Star. It is saddening to me to find misreadings of what I write because it occurs among a group of people who are professional readers and writers with whom one is hoping to share ideas and information which may be of interest and use. As I understand it, one of the tenets of language poetry is close reading. Perhaps due to email format, close reading seems to dissolve often here in the blurs of speed reading, in which the reader skims, scans and seeks for "key words" and word clusters." These, read in haste and ignoring context=97another tenet of language poetry which I admire=97are seized on and become "monsters from the deep." I think more than most I have tried to abide by and contribute what the list states as its goals: . Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible . . . The Poetics List exists to support and encourage divergent points of view on innovative forms of modern and contemporary poetry and poetics, and we are committed to do what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. In my letter I am trying to convey why the reading of Roberto Bolano's works--especially By Night in Chile, Distant Star and some of the stories in Last Evenings on Earth- is of such interest and use to American readers in thinking about the situation here post 9/11 2001 via the ways Bolano writes of confronting the situation in Chile before, during and after the events of 9/11 1973. By citing the example of Naomi Klein's great work, The Shock Doctrine, I presented an easy-to-find source for a lot of my recent thinking on the concrete cultural, historical, economic, military and extra legal uses of torture which directly demonstrate the close interrelationships among Chile post 1973 and what is happening in the USA post 2001. I have written of Bolano and his works a number of times on this list, and am working on some essays which draw on his work. I have been reading and thinking on his works for over three years now, and for a year had greatly anticipated the scheduled release of this volume. (Frankly compared to others of his works, I found it a little bit disappointing in terms of the writing.) I think his work is truly remarkable and of great interest to contemporary American readers. It engages many issues which are being faced in the post 9/11 USA, itself the origin of the events which shaped the directions Bolano's life and work were to take beginning on 9/11 1973. This particular book that is reviewed is one that has enjoyed an immense popularity and acclaim in Latin America especially, where the realities which gave rise to its fictions are all too real to millions of readers. As Naomi Klein and Naomi Wolf, among a great many others have written, many of the fictions and realities which are present in Bolano's worlds have been arriving in America for some time, and creating a kind of "blowback" reality especially since 9/11. That makes the work al the more interesting and necessary as a kind of "through a glass, darkly" method of viewing from that past created in large by the US, the reality that the US. is becoming in the present. "Context"--is what I am essaying to provide, rather than reductive sound bytes. Like a number of the language poets, Context to me is an issue of great importance in writing and thinking about writing. he discussion almost a hundred years ago in Russia among the Formalists, (Russian) Futurists and Marxists on the occasion of Marinetti's grand tour of Russia in 1913 I think of the greatest interest still today in relation with a number of the discussions here and my own interests. The question of speed in relation with vision and hearing has been one that especially interests me. And from that speed--the examination of information and disinformation which is both received and transmitted, and the study of these in documents, treating texts as documentary sources which are at the same time quasi fictional in nature in relation with language. The origins of the word avant-garde are military, and this connection of the avant-garde in War and in poetry and the arts was made by the first self-professed avant-garde movement of the 20th Century, Italian Futurism. Due to Italian Futurism's later association with fascism, many of its ideas did not receive much recognition outside of Italy for many decades. Like Paul Virilio, a figure who has greatly inspired me, I am interested in examining and reexamining the interrelationships of contemporary culture and the developments of technologies which originate in the military that Italian Futurism opened the door to. I have also read a great deal of work on economics, security, surveillance, counter insurgency and insurgency and intelligence issues which, like those of Naomi Klein and the authors of such works as Curveball, The Italian Letter and Collusion have opened I find many ways to widen the scope of the creation and study of writing in all its media. One of my main concerns is expressed in a quote I began a Pound letter with which was perhaps overlooked. The government under pretext of security and progress liberated us from our land, resources, culture, dignity and future. They violated every treaty they ever made with us. I use the word "liberated" loosely and sarcastically, in the same vein that I view the use of the words "collateral damage" when they kill innocent men, women and children. They describe people defending their homelands as terrorists, savages and hostiles . . . My words reach out to the non-Indian: Look now before it is too late=97see what is being done to others in your name and see what destruction you sanction when you say nothing. =97Leonard Peltier, Annual Message January 2004 Perhaps due to my shared heritage with Mr Peltier, to having lived in countries aboard which were under repressive regimes, and to my living situation of the last seven years, this warning may be more immediate and real to myself than others. Rather than listening to the "promises" of language, of which I am very skeptical, I hope to find other ways in which there is the language of promise, that is of, of openness into a different situation and writing than the current dominant ones have to offer, let alone impose. I don't think in this regard I'm particularly different than anyone else he= re. Paul Celan wrote: "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself." This is the writing I find "exposed" in the ground and streets via the rubBEings, and all those writings hidden in plain site/sight/cite from that which looks out at writing and the world, looks back at the writing and world which is being "imposed, " "imposing itself" on the ground itself so that no other poetry or writing may be found. For myself, and my work, from the perspective which is mine, many things that occur in language and in writing I find heard and seen in a different accent, and so work to understand what it is others are hearing and seeing in order to understand what it is that seems the opposite to me in what others say. The words that mean certain things easily understood and that are accepted by a great many others, and find their way into the society and culture and spread steadily, it is not so easy for myself to accept with the same ease. I think that Mr Peltier indicates the usefulness of this, in that it provides society with persons who question with a deeper skepticism and more of a life and death concern, things which promise to "liberate" one. Scepticism is necessary for survival in a society which too often says and writes one thing and then acts in the opposite way. I hope that makes clearer that I share a direction with this list, I simply find a different means continually with which to keep moving in that direction. as Pirandello wrote: "Tonight we improvise!" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Roland Barthes In-Reply-To: <989940.76735.qm@web65105.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Barry, Interesting that you would focus on Barthes's later work, with which assessment I completely agree. I would add to your list the volume *The Responsibility of Forms*, particularly the essay on Einstenstein's Stills {from films], which deals with the idea of the third eye. I would add the essays on Loyola and Fourrier (which appear in a single book with the essay on Sade). I also like his essay on the human voice, comparing I think two kinds of singers, one based on expressiveness and the other on something like timber. I do not remember the title of the essay. Finally, I would suggest Barthes's posthumous book which includes three fascinating sections, the first describing the "light" in different parts of France, the second consisting of his journal in North Africa chasing boys, the third being "Parisian Nights," his diary in the last few days of his life. In the very last entry of this diary (I think) Barthes says he does not want to live any more if he stops being attractive to other men, a revelation suggesting that the "accident" of being hit by a bus (streetcar?) may have been a suicide after all. The French love euphemisms, officiial fictions as much as anybody. This posthumous book came packed, and may still be, with another book by a gay academician; that book is totally dismissable and I remember being annoyed to have to buy both books together. Years ago, I used to give a workshop on writing of poetry. The first text the participants had to read was the North African Journal, me asking them how or if this "memoir" was in any way different from Barthes's other books. I think *The Pleasure of the Text* was a great break and a new departure for Barthes. In that book he asserts the reality of a "chaotic," disjointed dimension in the [his] experience of reading. A lot of his later work is I think an expansion of this "chaotic" ("the third eye") factor. Obviously, this goes against the principle in semiotics where one assumes every gesture, every act is symbolically determined. Barry, you seem to be aware of it. Another book of his I like is *Barthes on Barthes*, where a "life" is told in essay/fragments (I think numbered). I was also very affected that he introduces photographs in the first section of this book in one saying, "* this* is the way I looked at a certain age." This radical introduction of the "eye" into writing, its introduction in a new way, had a profound effect on me establishing possibilities of new relationships between words and seeing. The very first seeds of my essay *The Peripheral Space of Photography*, where I say photography more than being a plastic medium related to painting is a meditative medium relating to words, were planted by the photographs in *Barthes on Barthes* (and later the essay on Einstenstein's stills). Barthes discovers a completely new way (a "pasive," erotic way) the eyes can enter literature, which leads to the concept of a literary space, a tactile space created by words. Barthes first brings this idea in his essay on Loyola (along with the Fourrier essay written while he was also writing his "private" North Africacan journals) which ends with the statement [I am paraphrasing], "All I remember of Loyola are his eyes, full of tears." Ciao, Murat On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > There are different periods of his work and Barthes' readers have > different preferences accordingly. I would call your attention above all to > his later work, that is, from the '70s, esp. A Lover's Discourse, Camera > Lucida, and The Pleasure of the Text. In the French editions of his Oeuvres > completes, these are in the 4th and 5th of the five volumes. > > Amanda Earl wrote: i often see references to / > excerpts from the work of Roland Barthes, > particularly in discussions on language poetry. i was wondering if > anyone had any recommendations as to what would be a good overview of > his writing or where to start. > > Amanda > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm not so sure ANY poetry is meant to be outside the academy at this point, Mark. Being someone outside the academy I find that I'm going to have to go INSIDE the academy whether I like it or not. Not as a student, but, THIS LIST for instance. PENNSOUND for instance. You're someone I respect very much, but I can't say I agree with some of what you say here. But it seems, like anything, almost anything at all at this point, if there is a way to create money from it, then it gets plugged into the banks and the loans and the ON button gets pushed and visiting poets get funded, and workshops and readings and luncheons and retreats and lectures and whatever else gets going. And furthermore the experimental schools are a much smaller wedge of pie in the academic machine of poetry wouldn't you say? And I'm NOT EVEN saying that I dislike the poems coming out of all of these schools, I'm simply stating a fact. It's rare to find a poet who does not have, or is not going for a Masters. And getting back to D'Erasmo's book review, no, I'm not seeing how the argument works. Meaning no one here, not one of you, has yet pointed out HOW the LANGUAGE poets are fascists. And I do mean fascists in whatever terms you mean. Fascist because why? Fascist because they are the brand name now for all and any experimentation in poetry? Can we get some real answers here please? For years and years I've encountered these vague arguments, which apparently work in some circles since even D'Erasmo herself doesn't seem to need to know ANYTHING about LANGUAGE poetry in order to make bold declarative statements in the New York Times. Her peers read her review and nod approvingly, and it stays that way, and it's in the New York Times after all and therefore all but irreproachable evidence of fact. For years I've heard rumors. Many rumors. Murmurs. Constant chattering about LANGUAGE poets. When I was a teen it made me WANT to know who these miscreants were! And when I finally meet them I find that they're some of the most generous poets I've ever met, frankly. FAR MORE generous than some faculty I've met at places like Iowa, and Warren Wilson (Warren Wilson is a stone's throw from the grounds of Black Mountain College, yet half a world away in every other respect). I'm telling you that from MY own experience the LANGUAGE poets are much more interested in hearing me do WHAT I WANT with my poems, using ANY means in this world to create a different sound, or image. But these others, from these more mainstream schools, THOSE are the REAL fascists! Many stories I could impart! Stories of HAMMERING away at poet friends of mine in workshops to MAKE them see how wrong they are for daring to write the way they want. One friend of mine persuaded me to send poems to her school's literary magazine, forgetting how much her own poems had been altered to fit their Robert Frost and Louise Gluck codes. A professor of that school ACTUALLY SAID TO ME in the rejection letter, "Why do you feel the need to reinvent the wheel?" I'm not even angry at that statement. Amused partially, creeped out partially, with a little room for sadness. LISTEN, I do not consider myself a LANGUAGE poet. Yet at the same time I will not pretend I have not learned MUCH from them! MUCH! The LANGUAGE poets are just as rich and fertile a place for a poet to find and absorb extraordinary tools as is The New York School, Black Mountain, Surrealists, Futurists, etc. My experience has also been that the LANGUAGE poets themselves, as people, aren't the monsters I was led to believe they were when I was a kid. It was more than a little shocking to find out just how untrue the stories had actually been. I was expecting some sort of crazed Pound figure yelling and screaming, but instead found men and women who took time to say, Hey, have you read So-And-So? What do you think of So-And-So? Or, if you LIKE this, then look at THIS! The enthusiasm for poetry is alive and well in that community, it's undeniable! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:06:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Burt moments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Just back from Louisville, where Alan Golding broke my heart by reading Burt Hatlen's poems -- what do I find waiting in my mailbox but the MLA newsletter with its pages of calls for papers, including calls for two Ezra Pound panels with instructions to email abstracts and proposals to Burt Hatlen. No surprise to find Burt still hard at work organizing us from heaven -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:28:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: 7-UP ON ROCK! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline the Kelly Writers House presents 7-UP ON ROCK! featuring children's entertainer SAM ALLINGHAM DJ LAUREN LIPSAY Rock/paper/scissors judge DANIEL MCQUADE rock critic MARIA TESSA SCIARRINO crystal dream therapy by CACONRAD Rocky expert and native Philadelphian BLAIR BORISH and Rocky Horror actor MATT ROSENBAUM Monday, 3/3/08 at 6PM 3805 Locust Walk Philadelphia ________________________________________ THE 7-Up SERIES is an annual program for which we invite seven guests to speak for seven minutes each about a topic. Each speaker gives their insight on some aspect of the chosen theme. For more information about the 7-UP series, visit: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/wh/events/7up/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Zamsky, Robert" Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robert o B o l a=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poe try/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I would certainly not claim that LangPo has swept the world, my = own experience (perfectly anecdotal) is that it seems to crop up = wherever I turn. Just this last weekend I met a young Polish poet very = interested in, knowledgeable about, and influenced by LangPo; as well as = an Aussie musician, poet, scholar, whose work I don't know, but who is = certainly quite interested in and knowledgeable about the folks = involved. Several years ago at a summer seminar I struck up a = friendship with a Frenchman similarly immersed in Language Poetries (and = its affinities/tensions with contemporary French poetry). And, last = year, I heard Charles Bernstein introduced by an eminent scholar who has = been no partisan champion of LangPo as "the man who has done more than = any single living poet to shape how we read poetry today." Indeed, I = find it impossible to imagine contemporary writing without Charles & Co. = Has language poetry become dominant and/or hegemonic? I think not. = But its significance both within and beyond these shores cannot be = shrugged off. ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Barry Schwabsky Sent: Thu 2/28/2008 6:03 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robert o B o la=F1 o - - = NYTBR--Nazi Poe try/ langpo & fasc ism Admittedly, some people are just less curious than others. But you can't = generalize your own lack of interest--it's your own possession. Robin Hamilton wrote: << Despite the assertion here that Language poetry is of no interest = outside the US, I can certainly attest than when poets in the general orbit of Language poetry came to read in the reading series I ran here in London, they generally got the biggest turnout. For whatever that's worth. >> Well, it depends on whom or what you play them against. [Or equally, what you mean by langpo?] Tom Leonard, Kurt Schwitters, Barry Griffiths? I'm not saying no one here has heard of Charles Bernstein, just that the loud drum of langpo in USAmerica is more like a tiny tinkle here. british-poets is probably the major list here for sound/semantic/avant poety, and I don't hear langpo being much discussed there, if at all. [And on a more personal level, I have yet to be given one statement form = a langpoet that made me want to read more, or a quotation from a langpoet = poem that made me want to read further. Sorry, mate.] Robin Hamilton > Robin Hamilton wrote: << > Thank everyone who responded to my query re langpo. I have collected = and > noted the various sources to which you have referred me and look = forward > to > become educated in this important, judging from the numerous = discussions > that have taken place, area of poetic endeavour. > John Cunningham >>> > > .... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American > Football > and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. > > "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. > > Like you, I once wondered what it all was all about, but being, I = suspect, > older than you, I brought a bit of previous to this, having grown up = in > the > middle of the Glasgow Language Wars in the sixties. > > Now there was a time ... > > I now know what I'm supposed to think, but I'm not sure I really want = to > know. > > If I had to coin an image to describe what it all seems like from the > outside, langpo is a bit like Imagism without Ezra Pound. > > Mind you, as the wheel of time turns in its courses, I'm currently = engaged > in tracking the use of cant in English writing between 1500 and = tomorrow, > and as such, I'm probably less than wholly sympathetic to poetic = movements > that get gobbled up by the Academy before they're hardly even out of = the > egg. > > Robin Hamilton > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1302 - Release Date: = 2/27/2008 > 4:34 PM > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:19:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura hinton Subject: Re: Roland Barthes In-Reply-To: <989940.76735.qm@web65105.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For brilliancy in close reading (Balzac in this case), I'd recommend S/Z. The essays in Image-Music-Text have been helpful to me in reconsidering the image as well as poetic performativity. Laura On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > There are different periods of his work and Barthes' readers have > different preferences accordingly. I would call your attention above all to > his later work, that is, from the '70s, esp. A Lover's Discourse, Camera > Lucida, and The Pleasure of the Text. In the French editions of his Oeuvres > completes, these are in the 4th and 5th of the five volumes. > > Amanda Earl wrote: i often see references to / > excerpts from the work of Roland Barthes, > particularly in discussions on language poetry. i was wondering if > anyone had any recommendations as to what would be a good overview of > his writing or where to start. > > Amanda > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 02:51:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate Pritts Subject: *shrug* In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All-- =20 My new chapbook, SHRUG, is out now.=20 =20 These are poems but the whole thing starts with quotes from Salinger & Bart= helme & in case you don't know they are fiction writers & I believe this ma= kes me wildly experimental & dangerous! =20 You can order through the publisher, Main Street Rag, by going here: http:/= /www.mainstreetrag.com/store/chapbooks.php (you have to scroll down) thoug= h you could order directly from me by going here: http://www.h-ngm-n.com/na= te-pritts/ & I'll be happy to sign it, or cross out some of the words in a= n effort to make each copy a truly unique artistic experience. * Also up = today online is an interview with me here:http://verylikeawhale.wordpress.c= om/2008/02/28/ten-questions-2-nate-pritts/ And, just for the hat trick, the= new issue of online journal Mustachioed went up yesterday with a poem of m= ine, here:http://www.mustachioed.com/index.html ___________:: Nate Pritts :: Sensational Spectacular:: Spring Psalter _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta= r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja= n= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:59:07 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc ism In-Reply-To: <004601c87a2f$85df61c0$4101a8c0@nowhereddc257a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, I guess the Japanese are going to be pretty disappointed to learn that baseball isn't big in their country. I suspect that the same disappointment will be shared in some non-US American nations, though I don't have the first hand knowledge to say for sure. On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> wrote: > > ... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American Football > and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. > > "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:27:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Fwd: Beyond Baroque Lease Renewal In-Reply-To: <47C6A9CA.B94C.00F7.0@lacity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thank you for your recent e-mail expressing your support for the City's extension of the lease of City property to Beyond Baroque. We applaud the wonderful work that this organization performs for our City residents, and wish to make clear that the City Attorney's Office is not in any way prohibiting the City from continuing its long-standing relationship with Beyond Baroque. The City Council and Mayor are responsible for decisions to lease City property. The City Attorney's Office's role in these matters is solely to approve the form of the lease and to advise City officials regarding applicable laws. The City Attorney's Office does not set or control policy in leasing matters. We understand that Council Member Rosendahl has recommended to the City Council that the City's lease with Beyond Baroque be extended. If you have questions about the Council Member's motion or the Council process going forward, you may wish to speak with his office. Again, thank you for taking the time to send your e-mail. Regards, David Michaelson Chief Assistant City Attorney Municipal Counsel Branch Office of the Los Angeles City Attorney 213/978-7178 >>> "Catherine Daly" 2/19/2008 6:11 AM >>> I want to thank you in advance for the lease renewal for Beyond Baroque, located in Venice's former city hall? Fire station? I am a poet, and I have read and taught at Beyond Baroque many times. When I moved from New York to Los Angeles, I stopped at Beyond Baroque on the way to the temporary housing from LAX. THAT's the sort of national and international reputation BB has -- it has put that particular community on the "poetry map" and remains the iunofficial "city hall" of LA Poetry. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com 5100 Ambrose Avenue Los Angeles, CA 90027 -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:17:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Drunk in Iraq. Some real econ news! Comments: To: UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In case you are having a tough time meeting your monthly 'nut' and getting a bit grim with recession, gas, student tuition costs and other such news, take a gander at the real cost of the war in Iraq, or, say, what we permitted when we let this set of incompetents declare a stupid war and step up to a bar with an endless set of drinks (& consequent drunks). Wow. Go to, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/28/iraq.afghanistan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 11:11:44 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz Subject: WORDS IMAGES LANDSCAPES: Tito Honegger and Jacques Jouet, Infolipo, Ward Tietz In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) MOTS IMAGES PAYSAGES (WORDS IMAGES LANDSCAPES) Tito Honegger and Jacques Jouet, Infolipo, Ward Tietz March 1 to April 13, 2008 (Word sculptures by Ward Tietz on display in the park around the villa through the summer) Opening: February 29, 2008, 6:30 p.m. Performance by Ward Tietz, Guenther Ruch, Colette Ruch and Vincent Barras, 7:00 p.m. VILLA BERNASCONI MUSEUM ROUTE DU GRAND-LANCY 8 LANCY, GENEVA, SWITZERLAND TEL: (41) 22 706 15 34, (41) 22 794 73 03 http://www.lancy.ch/jahia/Jahia/pid/2303 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:00:58 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robert o B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poe try/ langpo & fasc ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Admittedly, some people are just less curious than others. But you can't > generalize your own lack of interest--it's your own possession. I don't think it's *just me -- the most agressive innovative list here -- British and Irish Poets -- discusses lots of things which would seem to fall into this area, but langpo isn't normally among them. Perhaps there's a feeling that it had all been done already here by J.H.Prynne. That said, when I first came across the term a few years ago, I was curious enough, like John, to see what it was all about. Nothing I read, whether in the way of manifesto or poem, sparked my interest to go much further. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:11:21 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Robe rto B o la[i so-8859-1] =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fas c ism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jason Quackenbush" > I've often wondered myself why the culture that gave the world bangers and > mash hasn't taken to baseball. Oh, we've got it here, maybe even had it before you lot, just that it's called rounders and is played by little boys and girls on the beach, normally. Not that I want to be judgmental . Equally, we don't (yet) have anything quite like the MFA system in the States. For better or worse. This may partly have to do with the alternative tradition of the Group (in the technical sense -- Cambridge, London, Belfast, Glasgow, to mention the most prominent, and elsewhere). So the institutionalisation of poetry isn't quite the same here in the UK as in the USA. Robin > On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Robin: It was designed to be gobbled up by the academy. >> >> And it's not that big in America, either. Parochial begins in a (few) >> journals and MFA programs. >> >> Baseball, on the other hand, is something you Brits definitely out to >> think about importing. It would go so well with pasties and pies. >> >> Mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 01:36:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Roland Barthes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I've just joined the list: I'm Obododimma Oha from Nigeria. Amanda, I suggest you pick a copy of Image-Music-Text, a collection of writings by Barthes. You have full texts of essays such as "The Death of the Author", "Rhetoric of the Image", "Photographic Image", etc published there. Best wishes. Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amanda Earl To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:09:52 PM Subject: Roland Barthes i often see references to / excerpts from the work of Roland Barthes, particularly in discussions on language poetry. i was wondering if anyone had any recommendations as to what would be a good overview of his writing or where to start. Amanda ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:51:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. Wellman" Subject: Welcome Obododimma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome Obododimma We met in Aachen one summer. Glad to see you interested in the = discussion here.=20 On Barthes: most do start of with S/Z for an introduction to the concept = of writerly reading -- from that point forward I find all his work = compelling, even breath-taking. Donald Wellman http://faculty.dwc.edu/wellman/don.htm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Obododimma Oha" To: Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 4:36 AM Subject: Re: Roland Barthes > Hi, > I've just joined the list: I'm Obododimma Oha from Nigeria. Amanda, I = suggest you pick a copy of Image-Music-Text, a collection of writings by = Barthes. You have full texts of essays such as "The Death of the = Author", "Rhetoric of the Image", "Photographic Image", etc published = there. Best wishes. > Obododimma. >=20 > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Amanda Earl > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:09:52 PM > Subject: Roland Barthes >=20 > i often see references to / excerpts from the work of Roland Barthes,=20 > particularly in discussions on language poetry. i was wondering if=20 > anyone had any recommendations as to what would be a good overview of=20 > his writing or where to start. >=20 > Amanda=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > = _________________________________________________________________________= ___________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? =20 > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. = http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=3Dshopping > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:07:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: FW: Art and Democracy in the King Years: A Georgetown U Symposium In-Reply-To: d4028faf0802290613n53be2ec4kaf5256fb00c1f63c@mail.gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 'Let Freedom Ring' Art and Democracy in the King Years 1954 – 1968 A Lannan Literary Symposium & Festival Georgetown University April 15, 16, 17 2008 http://lannan.georgetown.edu By sweeping away legal segregation in the public sphere, and especially by securing the right to participate in the democratic franchise for people of color, the Civil Rights Movement fundamentally changed American life. This struggle for social justice has been well documented and justly honored. Less well-documented is how the arts helped sustain the Movement and were essential to its successes. On the fortieth anniversary of the death of Dr. Martin Luther King, the Lannan Literary Symposium seeks to acknowledge this legacy while paying special attention to the contributions of poets, writers, and artists to the public discourse of the Movement, especially during the period Taylor Branch has called "the King Years," 1954 -1968. Readings, performances, lectures, and discussions will take place on April 15, 16, & 17 at Georgetown University, in Washington, DC. __________ Amiri Baraka Sonia Sanchez Haki Madhubuti Vincent Harding Michael Eric Dyson Lawrence Guyot E. Ethelbert Miller Charles Cobb Eugene Redmond Askia Touré Walter Fauntroy Jabari Asim Valerie Smith Eleanor Traylor Barbara Teer Joanne Gabbin Thulani Davis Aldon Nielsen Dorie Ladner Sandra Shannon Maurice Jackson Ivanhoe Donaldson Ruth Harris Soyica Diggs Robert Patterson Randall Kenan Angelyn Mitchell Jayne Cortez __________ S p o n s o r s Lannan Literary Programs |African American Studies Program | Department of English| Office of the College Dean | Diversity Action Council ____________________ S C H E D U L E TUESDAY, APRIL 15 5:00 – 6:00 p.m. WELCOME AND PLENARY LECTURE (Copley) Title of lecture to be announced. Vincent Harding. 6:00 – 7:00 p.m. OPENING RECEPTION (Copley) 8:00 – 9:30 p.m. POETRY READING (ICC Auditorium) Reading by Amiri Baraka, Eugene Redmond, and Haki Madhubuti 9:30 – 10:00 p.m. RECEPTION AND BOOK SIGNING (ICC Auditorium) 10:00 – 11:00 p.m. OPEN MIC (Bull Dog Alley) WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16 9:30 – 11:45 a.m. SYMPOSIUM I: Art and Democracy in the King Years and Beyond: Scholarly Assessments (Copley) Joanne Gabbin, Aldon Nielson, Sandra Shannon, Valerie Smith, Eleanor Traylor. Facilitator: Jabari Asim 1:00 - 3:15p.m. SYMPOSIUM II: Creativity, Resistance, Liberation: Forms of Political Engagement in the Arts of the 1960s (Copley) Sonia Sanchez, E. Ethelbert Miller, Amiri Baraka, Barbara Teer, Haki Madhubuti. Facilitator: Soyica Diggs 3:45 – 5:00 p.m. PLENARY LECTURE (Gonda) "Art as a Form of Politics." Amiri Baraka. How artists are political, and how politics is used in art. 5:15 – 6:00 p.m. RECEPTION (Old North 205) 8:00 – 10:00 p.m. POETRY READING (Old North 205) Reading by Sonia Sanchez, E. Ethelbert Miller, Askia Toure 10:00 – 10:30 p.m. RECEPTION & BOOKSIGNING (Old North 205) 10:00 – 11:00 p.m. OPEN MIC (Bulldog Alley) THURSDAY, APRIL 17 9:30 a.m.– 12:00 p.m. SYMPOSIUM III: Living History: Activists on Art and Social Justice Lawrence Guyot, Ivanhoe Donaldson, Charles Cobb, Walter Fauntroy, Dorie Ladner, Ruth Harris. Facilitator: Maurice Jackson 12:30 – 2:00 p.m. LUNCHEON AND PLENARY LECTURE (Copley) "Music of Struggle." Ruth Harris. Turning crowds into community by getting people to sing. 2:15 – 4:30 p.m. SYMPOSIUM IV: Advancing American Ideals: Democracy as a Goal for the Arts (Copley) Randall Kenan, Askia Toure, Thulani Davis, Eugene Redmond, Jayne Cortez. Facilitator: Robert Patterson 5:00 – 6:15 p.m. PLENARY LECTURE (Copley) "'A Change is Gonna Come'?" Michael Eric Dyson. Art and the politics of the black possible. 8:00 – 10:00 p.m. READING (ICC Auditorium) Reading by Randall Kenan, Thulani Davis, Barbara Teer, Jayne Cortez 10:00 – 10:30 p.m. RECEPTION AND BOOKSIGNING (ICC Auditorium) 10:00 – 11:00 p.m. OPEN MIC (Bulldog Alley) -- Mark McMorris Associate Professor, English Director, Lannan Literary Programs Georgetown University <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:17:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Jo Malo Subject: Re: Bola=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1o?= Review, Language Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The Sound and the F=FChrer The New York Times - Sunday Book Review February 24, 2008 Of Intellectuals and Other Escape Artists International Herald Tribune - Culture February 22, 2008 This same review appeared two days earlier with a somewhat less inflammatory title. It seems D'Erasmo has an axe to grind and/or needs controversy to promote her own career as novelist-professor. "They are, in other words, writers. Substitute, say, "language poetry" for "fascism" and the trajectory of these invented lives would be much the same as they are for the busy networks of real writers Bola=F1o knew from the inside out. Whereas in "By Night in Chile" Bola=F1o's dissection of hypocrisy and bad faith (the main character is a morally bankrupt priest allied with the junta) is swift and merciless, here it is not only as if the writer in him couldn't keep himself from filigreeing in endless perfect and revealing details about his lost souls and their laughable oeuvres, but also as if he couldn't entirely resist them." Apparently she couldn't resist either. Mary Jo Malo http://thisshiningwound.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:45:10 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: to return misreadings to readings (closer & close-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are many interesting points in your post, David, as usual--but as usual for me I can only address one thing at a time. In this case I simply want to point out that you are mistaken in saying that language poetry is tied to a practice of close reading. I don't actually think that's true, at least not close reading in the sense that I learned in college and came from the "new criticism", Cleanth Brooks and all that. This is not the best way to appreciate language poetry, which opens up much more under a more free-floating field of attention. This is something that I remember Ron Silliman writing about somewhere, though someone else will have to supply a specific reference. David Chirot wrote: Dear Amy , Barry & Friends- It's my birthday today so I thought to essay a reply to some of the letters and especially to my friend Barry, who wrote that I had equated fascism with language poetry, and that most on the list including probably myself included, have language poetry as the foundation for their work, so how can one "attack." one's foundation? Misreading I think is what produces so many misundertandings, and is best to address them I think before they become a locked in stone profile of oneself and/ or others. (A friend of mine from Latin America and myself have often thought and at times begun to collect misreadings as a new form of enquiry into the nature of the production of "misknowledge.," a new branch of "mis-criticism." with which to produce ultimately "misled texts and misleading texts."!) I did not equate language poetry with fascism, and actually I do not have language poetry as a foundation for my efforts as Barry writes. To hopefully make matters a bit clearer, I thought to explain a little of what my foundation so to speak is. Unlike many people on this list, I did not know about language poetry at all until later in life, beyond the "formative years" during which perhaps others discovered it. For a thirteen year period of my teens and twenties, I was living a lot in Europe, and when I came back to America at one point I married, as generations and generations in my family have since 1650 in Quebec, an Indian, a Mohawk. For the next many years a lot of my life was in the world of her family, the Mohawk world, the Indian Programs, and AIM. The ideas and influences I had then and still do, are from Europe (primarily France), Vermont, Boston and Milwaukee and the Indian world and street world and a lot of reading, movies, music, art and so are rather different from most people here. Most of the last 7 years I've lived at the poverty level in the Central City after being put on disability for degenerating spine from my back being broken three times. Combined with other factors, a good part of my life has not been in the same country that probably most here know as "America." I'd say where I live in a sense is always a liminal place, crossing back and forth among various regions physically and mentally, via the bus daily and via the mind continually. I know that often I have to remember to try to translate into terms not my own things which are difficult enough to express to begin with . Not having the shared foundation as Barry says in language poetry and some other areas that others do, I realize that many things which mean something here mean the opposite to myself, and the world I've lived in. To try to grasp often what is being written one has to go into a kind of reverse, almost a reverse engineering at times, to be able to understand what is being presented from the other point of view. I try to understand from the other person's point of view and so read as carefully as possible. It is not at al that the writing or ideas are "difficult," but that the frame within which they are formulated is one I have to try to squeeze into and get a sense of the arrangement of the room. It participates in a world and world view which is much narrower than the one one is in, so it takes some work to essay the transition into what may be called the normative academic /language world. Once within that frame, one essays to translate back and forth in order to achieve some form of balance, and from that balance to essay to express things which hopefully will not be misread. It's very difficult at times, because terms that mean one thing to me to others mean something else, and being the "odd man out," I have to learn others' codes because one can't expect others to understand languages which they are unaware of the existence of. Misreading is a frequent occurrence with email, and one essays to not be misread, as when it occurs, it can become weapon for violence against whomever is judged to be the culprit. Sadly, miscommunications have been since time began the cause of a lot ot unnecessary conflict. I'm very saddened by some comments as they were based on misreadings of my letter, as well as based on confusing what I write with what the reviewer writes. I think the only way to find out what the reviewer meant is simply to write her a thoughtful letter. One can speculate until the cows home, and work oneself into a lather, and be all bothered over nothing, if one finds out that perhaps what the writer meant is not what was angering one. I think the best thing to do is address a letter to the reviewer, and in that way clear up the problems one has with what she has written. I should note also that one can't really speculate responsibly on who and what the writers in the book are by extrapolating from what is in the review. Read the book ! I say and find out for yourself. The writers come from all classes and backgrounds and degrees of education. and from various countries in North and South America. What Bolano is presenting is a heterogeneous group of people most of whom have no idea of each other. The only one who is truly dangerous is Lieutenant Ramirez Hoffman of the last chapter, who becomes Alberto Ruiz-Tagle aka Carlos Weider and is the "star" of the brilliant and harrowing novella Distant Star. It is saddening to me to find misreadings of what I write because it occurs among a group of people who are professional readers and writers with whom one is hoping to share ideas and information which may be of interest and use. As I understand it, one of the tenets of language poetry is close reading. Perhaps due to email format, close reading seems to dissolve often here in the blurs of speed reading, in which the reader skims, scans and seeks for "key words" and word clusters." These, read in haste and ignoring context—another tenet of language poetry which I admire—are seized on and become "monsters from the deep." I think more than most I have tried to abide by and contribute what the list states as its goals: . Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible . . . The Poetics List exists to support and encourage divergent points of view on innovative forms of modern and contemporary poetry and poetics, and we are committed to do what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. In my letter I am trying to convey why the reading of Roberto Bolano's works--especially By Night in Chile, Distant Star and some of the stories in Last Evenings on Earth- is of such interest and use to American readers in thinking about the situation here post 9/11 2001 via the ways Bolano writes of confronting the situation in Chile before, during and after the events of 9/11 1973. By citing the example of Naomi Klein's great work, The Shock Doctrine, I presented an easy-to-find source for a lot of my recent thinking on the concrete cultural, historical, economic, military and extra legal uses of torture which directly demonstrate the close interrelationships among Chile post 1973 and what is happening in the USA post 2001. I have written of Bolano and his works a number of times on this list, and am working on some essays which draw on his work. I have been reading and thinking on his works for over three years now, and for a year had greatly anticipated the scheduled release of this volume. (Frankly compared to others of his works, I found it a little bit disappointing in terms of the writing.) I think his work is truly remarkable and of great interest to contemporary American readers. It engages many issues which are being faced in the post 9/11 USA, itself the origin of the events which shaped the directions Bolano's life and work were to take beginning on 9/11 1973. This particular book that is reviewed is one that has enjoyed an immense popularity and acclaim in Latin America especially, where the realities which gave rise to its fictions are all too real to millions of readers. As Naomi Klein and Naomi Wolf, among a great many others have written, many of the fictions and realities which are present in Bolano's worlds have been arriving in America for some time, and creating a kind of "blowback" reality especially since 9/11. That makes the work al the more interesting and necessary as a kind of "through a glass, darkly" method of viewing from that past created in large by the US, the reality that the US. is becoming in the present. "Context"--is what I am essaying to provide, rather than reductive sound bytes. Like a number of the language poets, Context to me is an issue of great importance in writing and thinking about writing. he discussion almost a hundred years ago in Russia among the Formalists, (Russian) Futurists and Marxists on the occasion of Marinetti's grand tour of Russia in 1913 I think of the greatest interest still today in relation with a number of the discussions here and my own interests. The question of speed in relation with vision and hearing has been one that especially interests me. And from that speed--the examination of information and disinformation which is both received and transmitted, and the study of these in documents, treating texts as documentary sources which are at the same time quasi fictional in nature in relation with language. The origins of the word avant-garde are military, and this connection of the avant-garde in War and in poetry and the arts was made by the first self-professed avant-garde movement of the 20th Century, Italian Futurism. Due to Italian Futurism's later association with fascism, many of its ideas did not receive much recognition outside of Italy for many decades. Like Paul Virilio, a figure who has greatly inspired me, I am interested in examining and reexamining the interrelationships of contemporary culture and the developments of technologies which originate in the military that Italian Futurism opened the door to. I have also read a great deal of work on economics, security, surveillance, counter insurgency and insurgency and intelligence issues which, like those of Naomi Klein and the authors of such works as Curveball, The Italian Letter and Collusion have opened I find many ways to widen the scope of the creation and study of writing in all its media. One of my main concerns is expressed in a quote I began a Pound letter with which was perhaps overlooked. The government under pretext of security and progress liberated us from our land, resources, culture, dignity and future. They violated every treaty they ever made with us. I use the word "liberated" loosely and sarcastically, in the same vein that I view the use of the words "collateral damage" when they kill innocent men, women and children. They describe people defending their homelands as terrorists, savages and hostiles . . . My words reach out to the non-Indian: Look now before it is too late—see what is being done to others in your name and see what destruction you sanction when you say nothing. —Leonard Peltier, Annual Message January 2004 Perhaps due to my shared heritage with Mr Peltier, to having lived in countries aboard which were under repressive regimes, and to my living situation of the last seven years, this warning may be more immediate and real to myself than others. Rather than listening to the "promises" of language, of which I am very skeptical, I hope to find other ways in which there is the language of promise, that is of, of openness into a different situation and writing than the current dominant ones have to offer, let alone impose. I don't think in this regard I'm particularly different than anyone else here. Paul Celan wrote: "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself." This is the writing I find "exposed" in the ground and streets via the rubBEings, and all those writings hidden in plain site/sight/cite from that which looks out at writing and the world, looks back at the writing and world which is being "imposed, " "imposing itself" on the ground itself so that no other poetry or writing may be found. For myself, and my work, from the perspective which is mine, many things that occur in language and in writing I find heard and seen in a different accent, and so work to understand what it is others are hearing and seeing in order to understand what it is that seems the opposite to me in what others say. The words that mean certain things easily understood and that are accepted by a great many others, and find their way into the society and culture and spread steadily, it is not so easy for myself to accept with the same ease. I think that Mr Peltier indicates the usefulness of this, in that it provides society with persons who question with a deeper skepticism and more of a life and death concern, things which promise to "liberate" one. Scepticism is necessary for survival in a society which too often says and writes one thing and then acts in the opposite way. I hope that makes clearer that I share a direction with this list, I simply find a different means continually with which to keep moving in that direction. as Pirandello wrote: "Tonight we improvise!" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:16:10 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rosemary Ceravolo Subject: FW: The role of women in the NY School with Eileen Myles and Maggie Nelson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI: -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: Varda Subject: The role of women in the NY School with Eileen Myles and Maggie Nelson Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 04:02:42 +0000 KCRW Bookworm with Michael Silverblatt Listen http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw080228eileen_myles_and_mag "Sorry, Tree" (Wave Books) and "Something Bright, Then Holes" (Soft Skull Press) and "Women, The New York School, and Other True Abstractions" (University of Iowa Press) Critic David Lehman has called the New York School of Poetry "the Last Avant Garde." Poet and critic Maggie Nelson suggests it might better be considered "one of the first gay avant gardes," since its original members included Frank O'Hara, John Ashbery and James Schuyler. We examine the role of women in the New York School: Barbara Guest, Alice Notley, Bernadette Mayer and Eileen Myles. How did these women pave the way for today's women poets, who, like Maggie Nelson, are conscious of gender and its effects on poetry? Read excerpt: http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw080228eileen_myles_and_mag/excerpt-from-wo men-the-new-york-school-and-other-true-abstractions Bookworm's Host:Michael Silverblatt Bookworm Michael Silverblatt is the guy authors go to when they want a serious literary conversation about their writing, because Michael reads everything they ve ever written, often surprising the authors with insights about their work that they themselves hadn t realized. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:03:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amanda Earl Subject: Re: Roland Barthes In-Reply-To: <269363.96309.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed these are all really helpful tips, thanks everyone. and welcome to Obododimma too! Amanda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larissa Shmailo Subject: Re: Roland Barthes In-Reply-To: <269363.96309.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm proud to say I had (lost it) a letter from Roland Barthes, in which he wrote (excuse the lack of diacritical marks)? "J'ecris pour etre aime de loin." (I write to be loved from afar). Since my letter to him was a criticism of Le Plaisir du Texte,"? he added that in my case, "C'est rate."? (It? didn't work). Before I could write to him again telling him how much I loved his work, he was hit by the damned laundry truck. I would start reading Barthes at the fabulously fun Mythologies. Larissa -----Original Message----- From: Obododimma Oha To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 4:36 am Subject: Re: Roland Barthes Hi, I've just joined the list: I'm Obododimma Oha from Nigeria. Amanda, I suggest you pick a copy of Image-Music-Text, a collection of writings by Barthes. You have full texts of essays such as "The Death of the Author", "Rhetoric of the Image", "Photographic Image", etc published there. Best wishes. Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amanda Earl To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:09:52 PM Subject: Roland Barthes i often see references to / excerpts from the work of Roland Barthes, particularly in discussions on language poetry. i was wondering if anyone had any recommendations as to what would be a good overview of his writing or where to start. Amanda ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:09:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: to return misreadings to readings (closer & close-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Happy birthday DBC!!! long may you continue to rub your Beings the rite/write/right way!!! David Chirot wrote: > Dear Amy , Barry & Friends- > > > It's my birthday today so I thought to essay a reply to some of the > letters and especially to my friend Barry, who wrote that I had > equated fascism with language poetry, and that most on the list > including probably myself included, have language poetry as the > foundation for their work, so how can one "attack." one's foundation? > > Misreading I think is what produces so many misundertandings, and is > best to address them I think before they become a locked in stone > profile of oneself and/ or others. > > (A friend of mine from Latin America and myself have often thought and > at times begun to collect misreadings as a new form of enquiry into > the nature of the production of "misknowledge.," a new branch of > "mis-criticism." with which to produce ultimately "misled texts and > misleading texts."!) > > I did not equate language poetry with fascism, and actually I do not > have language poetry as a foundation for my efforts as Barry writes. > To hopefully make matters a bit clearer, I thought to explain a little > of what my foundation so to speak is. > > Unlike many people on this list, I did not know about language poetry > at all until later in life, beyond the "formative years" during which > perhaps others discovered it. For a thirteen year period of my teens > and twenties, I was living a lot in Europe, and when I came back to > America at one point I married, as generations and generations in my > family have since 1650 in Quebec, an Indian, a Mohawk. For the next > many years a lot of my life was in the world of her family, the Mohawk > world, the Indian Programs, and AIM. > The ideas and influences I had then and still do, are from Europe > (primarily France), Vermont, Boston and Milwaukee and the Indian > world and street world and a lot of reading, movies, music, art and > so are rather different from most people here. Most of the last 7 > years I've lived at the poverty level in the Central City after being > put on disability for degenerating spine from my back being broken > three times. Combined with other factors, a good part of my life has > not been in the same country that probably most here know as > "America." I'd say where I live in a sense is always a liminal place, > crossing back and forth among various regions physically and mentally, > via the bus daily and via the mind continually. > > I know that often I have to remember to try to translate into terms > not my own things which are difficult enough to express to begin with > . Not having the shared foundation as Barry says in language poetry > and some other areas that others do, I realize that many things which > mean something here mean the opposite to myself, and the world I've > lived in. To try to grasp often what is being written one has to go > into a kind of reverse, almost a reverse engineering at times, to be > able to understand what is being presented from the other point of > view. > > I try to understand from the other person's point of view and so read > as carefully as possible. > > It is not at al that the writing or ideas are "difficult," but that > the frame within which they are formulated is one I have to try to > squeeze into and get a sense of the arrangement of the room. It > participates in a world and world view which is much narrower than > the one one is in, so it takes some work to essay the transition into > what may be called the normative academic /language world. > > Once within that frame, one essays to translate back and forth in > order to achieve some form of balance, and from that balance to essay > to express things which hopefully will not be misread. It's very > difficult at times, because terms that mean one thing to me to others > mean something else, and being the "odd man out," I have to learn > others' codes because one can't expect others to understand languages > which they are unaware of the existence of. > > Misreading is a frequent occurrence with email, and one essays to not > be misread, as when it occurs, it can become weapon for violence > against whomever is judged to be the culprit. > Sadly, miscommunications have been since time began the cause of a lot > ot unnecessary conflict. > > I'm very saddened by some comments as they were based on misreadings of my > letter, as well as based on confusing what I write with what the > reviewer writes. > > I think the only way to find out what the reviewer meant is simply to > write her a thoughtful letter. > One can speculate until the cows home, and work oneself into a lather, > and be all bothered over nothing, if one finds out that perhaps what > the writer meant is not what was angering one. I think the best thing > to do is address a letter to the reviewer, and in that way clear up > the problems one has with what she has written. > > I should note also that one can't really speculate responsibly on who > and what the writers in the book are by extrapolating from what is in > the review. Read the book ! I say and find out for yourself. The > writers come from all classes and backgrounds and degrees of > education. and from various countries in North and South America. > What Bolano is presenting is a heterogeneous group of people most of > whom have no idea of each other. The only one who is truly dangerous > is Lieutenant Ramirez Hoffman of the last chapter, who becomes > Alberto Ruiz-Tagle aka Carlos Weider and is the "star" of the > brilliant and harrowing novella Distant Star. > > > It is saddening to me to find misreadings of what I write because it > occurs among a group of people who are > professional readers and writers with whom one is hoping to share > ideas and information which may be of interest and use. > > As I understand it, one of the tenets of language poetry is close > reading. Perhaps due to email format, close reading seems to dissolve > often here in the blurs of speed reading, in which the reader skims, > scans and seeks for "key words" and word clusters." These, read in > haste and ignoring context—another tenet of language poetry which I > admire—are seized on and become "monsters from the deep." > > I think more than most I have tried to abide by and contribute what > the list states as its goals: > > . Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry > that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of > form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and > styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, > unexpected, improbable, and impossible . . . The Poetics List exists > to support and encourage divergent points of view on innovative forms > of modern and contemporary poetry and poetics, and we are committed to > do what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. > > In my letter I am trying to convey why the reading of Roberto Bolano's > works--especially By Night in Chile, Distant Star and some of the > stories in Last Evenings on Earth- is of such interest and use to > American readers in thinking > about the situation here post 9/11 2001 via the ways Bolano writes of > confronting the situation in Chile before, during and after the events > of 9/11 1973. By citing the example of Naomi Klein's great work, The > Shock Doctrine, I presented an easy-to-find source for a lot of my > recent thinking on the concrete cultural, historical, economic, > military and extra legal uses of torture which directly demonstrate > the close interrelationships among Chile post 1973 and what is > happening in the USA post 2001. > > I have written of Bolano and his works a number of times on this list, > and am working on some essays which draw on his work. > I have been reading and thinking on his works for over three > years now, and for a year had greatly anticipated the scheduled > release of this volume. (Frankly compared to others of his works, I > found it a > little bit disappointing in terms of the writing.) > > I think his work is truly remarkable and of great interest to > contemporary American readers. It engages many issues which are being > faced in the post 9/11 USA, itself the origin of the events which > shaped the directions Bolano's life and work were to take beginning on > 9/11 1973. > This particular book that is reviewed is one that has enjoyed an > immense popularity and acclaim in Latin America especially, where the > realities which gave rise to its fictions are all too real to millions > of readers. > > As Naomi Klein and Naomi Wolf, among a great many others have written, > many of the fictions and realities which are present in Bolano's > worlds have been arriving in America for some time, and creating a > kind of "blowback" reality especially since 9/11. That makes the work > al the more interesting and necessary as a kind of "through a glass, > darkly" method of viewing from that past created in large by the US, > the reality that the US. is becoming in the present. > > "Context"--is what I am essaying to provide, rather than reductive > sound bytes. Like a number of the language poets, Context to me is an > issue of great importance in writing and thinking about writing. > > he discussion almost a hundred years ago in Russia among the > Formalists, (Russian) Futurists and Marxists on the occasion of > Marinetti's grand tour of Russia in 1913 I think of the greatest > interest still today in relation with a number of the discussions here > and my own interests. > > The question of speed in relation with vision and hearing has been one > that especially interests me. And from that speed--the examination of > information and disinformation > which is both received and transmitted, and the study of these in > documents, treating texts as documentary sources which are at the same > time quasi fictional in nature in relation with language. > > The origins of the word avant-garde are military, and this connection > of the avant-garde in War and in poetry and the arts was made by the > first self-professed avant-garde movement of the 20th Century, Italian > Futurism. Due to Italian Futurism's later association with fascism, > many of its ideas did not receive much recognition outside of Italy for > many decades. Like Paul Virilio, a figure who has greatly inspired me, > I am interested in examining and reexamining the interrelationships of > contemporary culture and the developments of technologies which > originate in the military that Italian Futurism opened the door to. I > have also read a great deal of work on economics, security, > surveillance, counter insurgency and insurgency and intelligence > issues which, like those of Naomi Klein and the authors of such works > as Curveball, The Italian Letter and Collusion have opened I find > many ways to widen the scope of the creation and study of writing in > all its media. > > > One of my main concerns is expressed in a quote I began a Pound letter > with which was perhaps overlooked. > > The government under pretext of security and progress liberated us > from our land, resources, culture, dignity and future. They violated > every treaty they ever made with us. I use the word "liberated" > loosely and sarcastically, in the same vein that I view the use of the > words "collateral damage" when they kill innocent men, women and > children. > They describe people defending their homelands as terrorists, savages > and hostiles . . . > My words reach out to the non-Indian: Look now before it is too > late—see what is being done to others in your name and see what > destruction you sanction when you say nothing. > —Leonard Peltier, Annual Message January 2004 > > Perhaps due to my shared heritage with Mr Peltier, to having lived in > countries aboard which were under repressive regimes, and to my living > situation of the last seven years, this warning may be more immediate > and real to myself than others. > > > Rather than listening to the "promises" of language, of which I am > very skeptical, I hope to find other ways in which there is the > language of promise, that is of, of openness into a different > situation and writing than the current dominant ones have to offer, > let alone impose. > > I don't think in this regard I'm particularly different than anyone else here. > > Paul Celan wrote: "Poetry no longer imposes itself, it exposes itself." > This is the writing I find "exposed" in the ground and streets via the > rubBEings, and all those writings hidden in plain site/sight/cite from > that which looks out at writing and the world, looks back at the > writing and world which is being "imposed, " "imposing itself" on > the ground itself so that no other poetry or writing may be found. > > For myself, and my work, from the perspective which is mine, many > things that occur in language and in writing I find heard and seen in > a different accent, and so work to understand what it is others are > hearing and seeing in order to understand what it is that seems the > opposite to me in what others say. > > The words that mean certain things easily understood and that are > accepted by a great many others, and find their way into the society > and culture and spread steadily, it is not so easy for myself to > accept with the same ease. I think that Mr Peltier indicates the > usefulness of this, in that it provides society with persons who > question with a deeper skepticism and more of a life and death > concern, things which promise to "liberate" one. > > Scepticism is necessary for survival in a society which too often says > and writes one thing and then acts in the opposite way. > > I hope that makes clearer that I share a direction with this list, I > simply find a different means continually with which to keep moving in > that direction. > > as Pirandello wrote: "Tonight we improvise!" > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:48:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc i sm In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) If anything, baseball is bigger in Japan than in the USA. It's pretty big in Latin America and the Caribbean as well. Not so big in Mexico, as far as I've seen. Hal "In Latin America, even atheists are Catholics." --Carlos Fuentes Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Feb 28, 2008, at 8:59 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > Well, I guess the Japanese are going to be pretty disappointed to > learn that > baseball isn't big in their country. I suspect that the same > disappointment > will be shared in some non-US American nations, though I don't have > the > first hand knowledge to say for sure. > > On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Robin Hamilton < > robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> >> ... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American >> Football >> and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. >> >> "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:05:32 -0500 Reply-To: sdz@buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Zultanski Subject: Lil' Norton Night at the Poetry Project Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 HELLO THERE. I'm pleased to announce that on Friday, March 7th, at 10 PM, Lil' Norton (M= odel Homes Mag, President's Choice Mag, Physical Poets Home Library Mag-Library, Nocturnal Editions) will host a knockout evening of poetry at St. Mark's Po= etry Project. Poets: Anne Tardos Seth Landman Kareem Estefan Patrick Lovelace Laura Elrick Kevin Thurston Eddie Hopely Diana Hamilton See you there, Lil' Neebun. http://www.presidentschoice.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:31:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: NYC/Portable Boog Reader Poets and The Pixies Live, 3/11 Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ----------------- =20 Boog City=B9s Classic Albums Live presents =20 =20 The Pixies=B9 Surfer Rosa at 20 (and Doolittle at 19) =20 and =20 readings from The Portable Boog Reader 2: An Anthology of New York City Poetry =20 Tues. March 11, 7:00 p.m., $8 =20 Cake Shop 152 Ludlow St. NYC =20 The night will open with readings from Portable Boog Reader 2 contributors =20 Jim Behrle Charles Borkhuis M=F3nica de la Torre Corrine Fitzpatrick Joanna Sondheim Angela Veronica Wong =20 =20 PBR2 features the work of 72 New York City poets. The online pdf is available at: http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc47.pdf =20 =20 Followed by the first two Pixies albums performed live by =20 Dream Bitches Sean T. Hanratty Serena Jost Bob Kerr Chris Maher Outlines Poton Preston Spurlock The Leader Todd Carlstrom and The Clamour =20 Hosted by Boog City editor and publisher David Kirschenbaum =20 Directions: F/V to Second Ave.; F to Delancey St.; J/M/Z to Essex St. Venue is between Stanton and Rivington streets. =20 For further information: 212-842-BOOG(2664), 212-253-0036, editor@boogcity.com, or http://www.cake-shop.com/ =20 Poet and musical acts=B9 bios and websites follow albums breakdown. =20 The Pixies =20 **Surfer Rosa** =20 *Outlines* =20 Bone Machine Break My Body Something Against You =20 =20 *Poton* =20 Broken Face Gigantic River Euphrates =20 =20 *Dream Bitches* =20 Where Is My Mind? Cactus Tony=B9s Theme =20 =20 *Sean T. Hanratty* =20 Oh My Golly! Untitled Vamos =20 =20 *Todd Carlstrom and The Clamour* =20 I=B9m Amazed Brick Is Red =20 =20 **Doolittle** =20 =20 Debaser =20 =20 *The Leader* =20 Tame Wave of Mutilation I Bleed =20 =20 *Chris Maher* =20 Here Comes Your Man Dead Monkey Gone to Heaven =20 =20 *Preston Spurlock* =20 Mr. Grieves Crackity Jones La La Love You =20 =20 *Serena Jost* =20 No. 13 Baby There Goes My Gun Hey =20 =20 *Bob Kerr* =20 Silver Gouge Away =20 =20 Bios: =20 **Boog City is a New York City-based small press now in its 17th year and East Village community newspaper of the same name. It has also published 35 volumes of poetry and various magazines, featuring work by Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti among others, and theme issues on baseball, women=B9s writing, and Louisville, Ky. It hosts and curates two regular performance series=8Bd.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press, where each month a non-NYC small press and its writers and a musical act of their choosing is hosted at Chelsea=B9s ACA Galleries; and Classic Albums Live, where up to 13 local musical acts perform a classic album live at venues including The Bowery Poetry Club, Cake Shop, CBGB=B9s, and The Knitting Factory. Past albums have included Elvis Costello, My Aim is True; Nirvana, Nevermind; and Liz Phair, Exile in Guyville. =20 =20 **Jim Behrle** http://americanpoetry.biz =20 Jim Behrle=B9s She=B9s My Best Friend came out in 2006 from Pressed Wafer. He lives in Brooklyn. =20 =20 **Charles Borkhuis=20 Charles Borkhuis=B9 books include Afterimage, Savoir-fear, and Alpa Ruins. Hi= s play Barely There was produced at the Ontological-Hysteric Theater in 2006. **M=F3nica de la Torre** =20 M=F3nica de la Torre is the author of the poetry books Talk Shows (Switchback Books) and Ac=FAfenos, a collection in Spanish published recently in Mexico City by Taller Ditoria. She is co-author of the artist book Appendices, Illustrations & Notes, available on www.ubu.com. =20 =20 **Dream Bitches http://www.dreambitches.org/ http://www.myspace.com/dreambitches =20 After a debut record that merely hinted at the cacophonous pop sound of =B990= s bands like The Breeders and The Muffs, NYC=B9s Dream Bitches plunge in head-first on their sophomore LP, Coke-and-Spiriters, out on Recommended If You Like Records this March. =20 The band, co-fronted by Yoko Kikuchi and Ann Zakaluk, formed back in the fall of 2003, when the two long-time friends and musical collaborators took a drive to Atlantic City and watched a bucket of quarters pour from the mouth of a slot machine. They'd struck it rich! The first Dream Bitches son= g was born, as was the band. =20 The two quickly found themselves playing all over New York, performing as a duo. Guitarist Casey Holford joined the fray just before the band recorded their 2005 debut, Sanfransisters, a playful folk-pop affair with jangly acoustic guitars and catchy choruses that made Dream Bitches an East Villag= e cult sensation. To realize the full-band sound of the record, bassist Julie DeLano and drummer Jen.Knee were recruited to complete the lineup. =20 After two years as a five piece, the band naturally rocks harder and louder= , and so does its sophomore record. Coke-and-Spiriters captures the band at their most volatile, featuring 10 tracks of distorted rock hooks and hyper-literate acoustic ballads. Snarling anthems like "Maniacal Mechanic" and "Bad Luck Bill" lend a new spirit of rock =B9n=B9 roll bombast to the relentlessly wordy lyrics that make Kikuchi a classic antifolk songwriter i= n the tradition of Rough Trade=B9s Jeffrey Lewis and K Records=B9 Kimya Dawson. Coke-and-Spiriters was recorded by Mark Ospovat of Emandee Studios (CocoRosie, Wooden Wand, Jeff Lewis) and produced by Casey Holford (Cheese on Bread, Daouets). After the release of the album, Dream Bitches will play select dates throughout the United States. =20 =20 **Corrine Fitzpatrick** http://sonaweb.net/zamboanguenachapbook.htm http://www.brooklynrail.org/2006/11/poetry/poetry-by-corrine-fitzpatrick Corrine Fitzpatrick has a transcription project called Zamboanguena due out from Sona Books this winter. She works for the Poetry Project at St. Mark=B9s Church. =20 =20 **Sean T. Hanratty http://www.myspace.com/seanthanratty =20 Sean T. Hanratty is straight outta Brooklyn and on his way into your shower= , by way of you singing his memorably melodic and incredibly enchanting songs in the shower, of course. =20 =20 **Serena Jost http://www.myspace.com/serenajost http://www.serenamusic.com =20 Serena Jost is a Swiss-American singer/songwriter and cellist living in New York City. Her forthcoming record, Closer Than Far, was produced by Brad Albetta (Martha Wainwright, Teddy Thompson) and mixed at Monkeyboy Studios in NYC. This stunning debut features Serena singing and playing guitar, cello, and piano. Some of NYC=B9s tastiest musicians help to bring these remarkable songs to life, which =B3seamlessly merge classical and pop melodies=B2. (Lucidculture) Closer Than Far will be released at Joe=B9s Pub on March 3rd, 2008. =20 Serena has performed at seminal NYC venues such as The Living Room, Barbes, Joe=B9s Pub, Tonic, Banjo Jim=B9s, Pete=B9s Candy Store, The Bowery Poetry Club, The Kitchen and St. Mark=B9s Church. She is an original member of Rasputina, the well-corseted cello group, and has collaborated with numerous other artists including poet Dan Machlin (=B3Above Islands=B2 on Immanent Audio), and has toured the United States and Europe extensively. =20 =20 **Robert Kerr =20 Robert Kerr is a playwright and songwriter living in Brooklyn. He wrote the book and lyrics for the short musical The Sticky-Fingered Fianc=E9e, and the songs for his plays Kingdom Gone and Meet Uncle Casper, as well as his Brothers Grimm adaptations Bearskin and The Juniper Tree. He was a founding member of the Minneapolis band Alien Detector. =20 =20 **Chris Maher http://www.myspace.com/chrismaher http://www.chrismaher.net =20 (pronounced mar): A young songwriter from New York City, wise beyond his years and schooled below his wisdom, proud and protective of the tricks up his sleeve. His music is oft an exercise in contradiction: Neurotic and savvy, country and city, wry and idealistic. He=B9s a deft adjuster but his fear of pigeonholes has been his pitfall=8Bto date, he has only two =B3released= =B2 songs to his credit. =20 This is, perhaps, because Chris has always felt most comfortable on the fence, never willing to confine himself to any one musical community. Back in the early 2000s, when first crashing the Lower East Side=B9s love-it-or-detest-it Antifolk scene, Chris was also playing bass for hip-ho= p band Automato (Dim Mak/Capitol) as they were writing their DFA-produced debut=8Bwhat else to do when Woody Guthrie and Wu-Tang Clan make equal sense. =20 New York=B9s Recommended If You Like Records released the first of two commercially available Maher-penned songs, =B3Summer Song,=B2 in 2004. It=B9s the A-side of the debut release by The Morningsides, a two-song, 7-inch single recorded by Walter Martin of The Walkmen. The single received considerable praise and generous college radio airplay, but the band fractured before committing anything else to tape. It wasn=B9t until late 2005 that Chris=B9 first =B3solo=B2 release, an early version of his =B3Ungrown Flowers=B2=8Bappeared on Seattle label Baskerville Hill=B9s 2005 compilation Dr. Rhinocerous or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Charge. =20 Chris has previewed countless other compositions in various places: On the radio (in both the U.S. and the U.K.), via the Internet and during his frequent live shows. One song, =B3Pretty Smile,=B2 made its debut in the short film, Rewind, by German filmmaker Joerg Steineck. Since 2006, Chris has spent considerable time on the road, touring throughout the United States and Europe. He has shared bills with a smorgasbord of fellow songwriters such as M. Ward (Merge / 4AD), Mike Doughty (ATO), Kimya Dawson (K), Nellie McKay (Columbia / Hungry Mouse), and Jeffrey Lewis (Rough Trade). He has also appeared, as a singer and a multi-instrumentalist, on a number of othe= r peoples=B9 albums, including Throw Me the Statue=B9s Moonbeams (Secretly Canadian / Baskerville Hill), Jack Lewis=B9 Lvov Goes to Emandee (Smoking Gun), Huggabroomstik=B9s Ultimate Huggabroomstik (Luv-A-Lot), and Phoebe Kreutz's Big Lousy Moon (self-released). =20 Now, at long last, Recommended If You Like Records is gearing up to release Chris=B9 debut long-player, Epigram on the Death of a Feeling. The 10-song collection recalls the verbose bitterness of Leonard Cohen=B9s Songs of Love and Hate and the restrained tenderness of early Wilco as well as Paul Westerberg=B9s aggressive melodicism. Recorded primarily in Williamsburg, Brooklyn with Mark Ospovat (Wooden Wand, Dufus), the album features an assortment of Chris=B9 past and present musical comrades. Soon after the record=B9s release, Chris will embark on full-scale tours of the U.S.A. and Europe. =20 =20 **Outlines http://www.caseyholford.com http://myspace.com/casey =20 FM folk on the kitchen radio, new wave vinyl from the living room, punk roc= k tapes on the basement boombox=8Bthese are the ancestral sounds of Outlines, a family indie rock affair. The band brings together the talents of Holford brothers Casey (Urban Barnyard) and Matt (Darediablo) on guitar and keyboards, cousin Wes Stannard (No Man=3DNo Eyes) on bass, and godfather Daou= d Tyler-Ameen (Art Sorority for Girls) on drums. =20 =20 **Poton** http://www.myspace.com/poton =20 =B3While not walking his pet pig Oscar through the forest looking for winter truffles with Cat Stevens blaring through his iPod, Poton (aka Adam Richard Rudolf Ferretti) sits around in his hometown Staten Island abode crafting songs about Zombies, not so endangered animals and the end of time, but never ever love.=B2 =20 =20 **Joanna Sondheim** http://www.sonaweb.net/thaumatropechapbook.htm Joanna Sondheim=B9s chapbook, Thaumatrope is out from Sona Books and other writing is forthcoming in Unsaid magazine. She lives in Brooklyn. =20 **Preston Spurlock http://www.myspace.com/prestonspurlock =20 Born and raised in South Florida, Preston Spurlock has been making lo-fi bedroom records for eight years. He started making a name for himself in th= e NYC arts community in 2004, performing solo as The Sewing Circle, as well a= s in groups including the Elastic No-No Band and Huggabroomstik. Influenced equally by postpunk, bluegrass, avant-garde composition, and novelty music, Preston=B9s rough-hewn songs are idiosyncratic and intimate. He=B9s also a visual artist and short filmmaker. He will be your friend. =20 =20 **The Leader http://myspace.com/theleadernyc =20 The Leader rock out with the dynamic grace of two sonic gymnasts. Careening through a thousand time signatures and pop genres, bassist Julie DeLano and drummer Sam Lazzara reign supreme over the low end, with suspenseful rhythmic patterns beneath wickedly clever melodies and lyrics. It would be math rock if it weren't so soulful. =20 =20 **Todd Carlstrom and The Clamour http://www.myspace.com/toddcarlstrom =20 Started as a solo recording project for no better reason than that he could= , Todd realized that the songs he wrote on the spot in the studio were turnin= g out too good not to play out, and so he assembled The Clamour as his backin= g band. =20 **Angela Veronica Wong** http://www.seriouslysquared.blogspot.com Angela Veronica Wong believes in big hair and twirling. You can read more about her beliefs at her above blog. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:50:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fascis m Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anything, baseball is bigger in Japan than in the USA. It's pretty big in Latin America and the Caribbean as well. Not so big in Mexico, as far as I've seen. Hal "In Latin America, even atheists are Catholics." --Carlos Fuentes Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Feb 28, 2008, at 8:59 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > Well, I guess the Japanese are going to be pretty disappointed to > learn that > baseball isn't big in their country. I suspect that the same > disappointment > will be shared in some non-US American nations, though I don't have > the > first hand knowledge to say for sure. > > On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Robin Hamilton < > robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> >> ... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American >> Football >> and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. >> >> "Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:55:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc i sm In-Reply-To: <354303D3-2274-4F8A-B21A-AEA20ADFACE7@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Yup, tends to do best in places we've occupied (though Germany was curiously resistent). Like cricket, which doesn't get much beyond the former British Empire. Will we someday see a franchise in Baghdad? Mark At 01:48 PM 2/29/2008, you wrote: >If anything, baseball is bigger in Japan than in the >USA. It's pretty big in Latin America and the >Caribbean as well. Not so big in Mexico, as far as >I've seen. > >Hal > >"In Latin America, even atheists are Catholics." > --Carlos Fuentes > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard@earthlink.net >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > >On Feb 28, 2008, at 8:59 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > >>Well, I guess the Japanese are going to be pretty disappointed to >>learn that >>baseball isn't big in their country. I suspect that the same >>disappointment >>will be shared in some non-US American nations, though I don't have >>the >>first hand knowledge to say for sure. >> >>On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Robin Hamilton < >>robin.hamilton2@btinternet.com> wrote: >> >>> >>>... but, John, do please insert the proviso that -- like American >>>Football >>>and baseball -- it's big in USAmerica, but nowhere else in the world. >>> >>>"Parochial" doesn't even *begin to describe it. >>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:23:12 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Nazi Literature in the Americas - Roberto B o la=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F1?= o - - NYTBR--Nazi Poetry/ langpo & fasc i sm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If anything, baseball is bigger in Japan than in the > USA. It's pretty big in Latin America and the > Caribbean as well. Not so big in Mexico, as far as > I've seen. > > Hal Ok, so I withdraw baseball (rounders) from The List Of Parochials. (Teach me to generalise based on Western European culture and the sports pages of the Virginia Pilot.) But I notice nobody's leapt to universalise American football. In the ranks of the semiotics of mayhem, shinty has to rank high, but. Or is that too too parochially Scottish? Robin [Is there an either/or between baseball and cricket? The later in England, India, Pakistan, Australia, the former ... Or do they play both in the West Indies, Hal? R.] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 17:14:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laura hinton Subject: Fwd: New chapbook, new press In-Reply-To: <6283ee870802291409k70345fb6m2f77ad7b8e38594a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline My performance poem *Ask Any Mermaid* is now available from the new *Tout Court Editions* chapbook series of the Tenement Press. See Aldon Nielson's blog this week for a review: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com Laura --------------- Laura Hinton Professor of English The City College of New York 138th and Convent Avenue New York, New York 10031 212-650-6349 ------- Book orders or press inquiries: tenementpress@gmail.com www.tenementpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:18:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Larry O. Dean" Subject: Myopic Books/This Sunday, Larry Sawyer & Larry O. Dean Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MYOPIC POETRY SERIES -- a weekly series of readings and occasional poets' talks Myopic Books in Chicago -- Sundays at 7:00 / 1564 N. Milwaukee Avenue, 2nd Floor http://www.myopicbookstore.com/mynews/ ************************************************************************ ******************** ************************************************************************ ******************** THIS SUNDAY AT MYOPIC BOOKS Sunday, March 2 – Larry Sawyer & Larry O. Dean Larry O. DEAN was born and raised in Flint, Michigan. He attended the University of Michigan, during which time he won three Hopwood Awards in Creative Writing, an honor shared with fellow poets Robert Hayden, Jane Kenyon, and Frank O'Hara, among others. He is author of numerous chapbooks, including I Am Spam (2004), a series of poems “inspired” by junk email; his poetry has also been internationally anthologized. In addition to writing, he is a singer-songwriter, performing solo as well as with several pop bands, currently, The Injured Parties; he has released several critically-acclaimed CD’s, including Fables in Slang (2001) with Post Office, and Gentrification is Theft (2002) with The Me Decade. Dean was a 2004 recipient of the Hands on Stanzas Gwendolyn Brooks Award, presented by the Poetry Center of Chicago. More info at http://larryodean.com Larry SAWYER edits www.milkmag.org (since 1998) with Lina ramona Vitkauskas. His poetry and literary reviews have appeared in publications including the Chicago Tribune, Vanitas, Jacket, MiPoesias, The Prague Literary Review, Coconut, 88, Hunger, Skanky Possum, Exquisite Corpse, Court Green, the Miami Sun Post, Ygdrasil, Shampoo, Van Gogh's Ear, and elsewhere. Chapbooks include Poems for Peace (Structum Press), A Chaise Lounge in Hell (aboveground press), and Tyrannosaurus Ant (mother's milk press), which was recently included in the Yale Collection of American Literature. His blog is http://larrysawyer.blogspot.com/. UPCOMING Sunday, March 9 - A Night of Translation … Mark Tardi, Daniel Borzutzky, Joel Calahan, & V. Joshua Adams Sunday, March 30 – Tim Yu & Patrick Durgin Sunday, April 20 - Kathleen Rooney, Elisa Gabbert, & Simone Muench Sunday, April 27 - Nikki Wallschlaeger & Kelly Lydick Sunday, May 18 - Bill Berkson & Special Guest http://www.myopicbookstore.com/mynews/ Myopic Books -- 16 years of innovative poetry in Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:20:00 -0800 Reply-To: ddbowen2000@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bowen Subject: New American Press chapbook contest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NEW AMERICAN PRESS is pleased to announce its spring 2008 chapbook contest! Winner receives $250 and 25 copies of the chapbook, and a 30% discount off future copies. The final judge will be Greg Williamson, and all submissions are read blind. Please include name, address, email address, and other contact information restricted to a separate cover sheet. The manuscript should be 20-30 pages of poetry, fiction, or nonfiction. Experimentation with form, structure, and style are encouraged, but our ultimate criterion is quality. Please submit by May 15, 2008, to: New American Press Chapbook Contest 2707 Trenton Way Fort Collins, CO 80526 Please include a check or money order for $12 payable to "New American Press." Past winners include David R. Slavitt, Stephen Davenport, and Margaret Rabb. More information at www.NewAmericanPress.com.